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It used to be that when you'd
mentioned elder abuse, people would

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think mainly around nursing homes,
aged care hospitals, you know, the

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kind of nurse ratchet style of abuse.

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But the reality is it's actually family
members, generally, adult children of

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00:00:21,900 --> 00:00:24,660
older people who are the biggest risk to.

... Read More

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It used to be that when you'd
mentioned elder abuse, people would

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00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:11,910
think mainly around nursing homes,
aged care hospitals, you know, the

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00:00:11,910 --> 00:00:15,150
kind of nurse ratchet style of abuse.

4
00:00:15,420 --> 00:00:21,810
But the reality is it's actually family
members, generally, adult children of

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00:00:21,900 --> 00:00:24,660
older people who are the biggest risk to.

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Being perpetrators of abuse against
their parent or an older person.

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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a
podcast encouraging open conversations

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about dying and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton.

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Founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping
to bring your stories of death back to

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life because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't be caught dead.

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Acknowledges the lands of the
Kulin nations and recognizes their

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connection to land, sea, and community.

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We pay our respects to their elders
past, present, and emerging, and

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extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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This morning we, as speaking with
William J. Betts, he serves as the deputy

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Director and practice manager for civil
and crime at the Peninsula Community

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Legal Center in Melbourne, Victoria.

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In this capacity, he oversees.

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Delivery of civil and criminal
legal services, ensuring that

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clients receive comprehensive
and effective legal assistance.

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With a robust background in family
violence law, will has previously

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held this position of senior
lawyer family violence at PCLC.

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His expertise in this area has been
instrumental in advocating for and

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protecting the rights of vulnerable
individuals affected by family violence.

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But beyond his managerial and legal
roles, will is actively engaged in

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community education initiatives.

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He has participated in discussions
highlighting the importance of

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wills and the role of community
legal centers in assisting

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individuals with estate planning.

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His contributions aim to raise
awareness about legal rights and

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empower community members through
accessible legal education.

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Will's dedication to social justice
and his comprehensive experience in

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civil, criminal, and family violence
law underscores his commitment to

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serving the community and advocating
for equitable legal outcomes.

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Wow.

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That is amazing.

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Not everyone.

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That's quite the

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introduction.

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Yeah, that was,

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thank you so much for being this.

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Will I appreciate.

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No, I absolutely.

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I'm glad to be here.

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Thank you for having me.

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It sounds like you have quite the social
conscience when it's come to your career.

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Well, sometimes we just fall into these
things, but I like to think that I, part

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of my motivation is to contribute to
my community through my legal practice.

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So it's very rewarding.

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It's very rewarding to do this work.

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And tell me, how did you
end up in this field?

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Well, I first started as a criminal
lawyer, seems like a lifetime ago,

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basically, because it was the only
job that I could get at the time.

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This was shortly after 2008, so after
the kind of financial crisis and

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jobs were pretty hard to come by.

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I actually studied, when I did my study,
I did intellectual property, background

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in the arts, arts prior to that.

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And so I just kind of, it was the
first job that I could get and

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I kind of fell in love with it.

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And mainly the advocacy.

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So the court work and progress
from that position through a

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number of different private legal
practices, and then eventually came

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to PCLC through that as kind of a.

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One of their duty lawyers at
the Frankston Magistrates Court

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in the family violence list.

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So it was at the beginning of the
specialist Family violence court.

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And so since then I've been working
at PCLC and kind worked my way up.

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I've originally only just
finished my eighth year,

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coming my eighth year at PCLC.

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So it's been quite the journey.

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But yeah, I didn't, I didn't start
with the notion that I would go

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into a community legal practice, but
it's the most rewarding place I've

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ever worked in my, my legal career.

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And tell me, you, you mentioned just
previously about the, the changes

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when there was an introduction
with the family violence court.

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Is that, what was that?

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Can you explain that?

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Okay.

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So some time ago the Victorian
government, I think it was then

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the Brax government introduced the
specialist family violence court.

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So prior to that time, I. The family
violence matters, that's intervention

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orders in relation to family violence and
dealing specifically with family violence.

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Didn't have a specialized jurisdiction.

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It was just run of through the rest
of the usual lists and dealt with

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in amongst all the other matters
being criminal or civil matters.

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Yeah.

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Right.

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Now you can probably imagine that
obviously that led to a lot of difficulty

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and even a certain amount of risk based
by, especially survivors of family

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violence, having to attend court and often
sit opposite and next to the, the people

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that are alleged to being exposing 'em
to that family loss and those behaviors.

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So obviously after a significant
period of community engagement

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from led by survivors, the
government took up those, uh.

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Legislative changes, it's the
Family Violence Protection Act.

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And along with it, a number of changes
in relation to how the court function.

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And part of that was the creation of
specialist family violence courts that

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first started as specialized lists and
duty lawyers, specially trained duty

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lawyers to assist both respondents and
so people, perpetrators and survivors

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would have their lawyers to assist them.

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And there'd be specialized programs set up
to assist people engaging in that process.

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And also along with that
training for magistrates.

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And now we are in a situation where
there are a number of specialized

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courts that have been designed as
in architecturally designed to.

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Create a more safe environment and
low risk environment in relation

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to dealing with these matters,
because obviously court and was

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seen as a focus of risk for people.

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And so part of the jurisdiction
is about minimizing risk to the

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community facing family violence.

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So we didn't want the court
to contribute to that risk.

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So I was kind of came on board.

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My timeline might be a little bit off,
but a few years after those changes

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were kind of implemented and prior
to the current system that we have.

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So I've kind of saw the development
of the specialist family violence

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court and it and the jurisdiction.

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It's relatively infancy and
seen how it's kind of evolved.

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Over that time,

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it's amazing to think that we've
come from, in that period of time,

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I'll say short period of time will,

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oh, relatively, yeah.

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No, yeah.

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War moves really slowly.

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So this has all happened
relatively quickly.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So it's in recent memory, if you're
thinking, you know, Steve b Brax and

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his term as premier of Victoria, so
I still wasn't at school that stage,

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unwell and truly left by that stage.

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So it's within, I'm
gonna say recent memory.

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And so it's interesting that we've
seen, you know, that progression in

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the law, recognizing the vulnerability
to the point that it's even actually

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designed buildings, which I think
is just so necessary and, and an

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amazing, you know, leap forward in, you
know, as you said, an industry that.

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Generally is slow to move.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, and the reason why I'd, I'd really
wanted to have a chat with you today

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is that you work a lot in the space of
estate planning and also around that

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whole elder rights, elder protection,
elder abuse element that you can see.

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Can you sort of set the scene
for us about what you've seen in

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your career about how that is?

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That is because for me personally, it may
be just because I've just started working

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in this space, but I do feel like that
there's more conversations now in the last

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three sort of, well, certainly since I
think the Royal Commission into Aged Care

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has been released, that there is a more
community awareness around elder abuse.

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Would I be fair to say that?

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Well, I think it ebbs and flows.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Uh, I, when I first started, there were
a lot of misconceptions about elder

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abuse that were out in the community
that I think have receded quite a bit.

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It used to be that when you mentioned
elder abuse, people would think

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mainly around nursing homes, aged
care hospitals, you know, the kind of,

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this might be shown my age, but the
kind of nurse ratchet style of abuse

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occurring in the care of someone by
a, a nurse or aged care professional.

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But the reality in terms of the
figures and what we saw and what

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the kind of statistics bear out is,
it's actually family members and

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generally adult children of older
people who are the biggest risk to

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being perpetrators of abuse against
their parent or an older person.

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And so essentially what.

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Has happened over a period of my
work has been a recognition that it

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does fall within what the courts and
the law defines as family violence,

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that being a trusted family member,
engaging in abuse of conduct or coercive

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control in relation to a relative.

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So there was a long kind of push to
make to kind of recognize that as a

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form of family violence and therefore
being appropriate to be dealt with

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within the family violence jurisdiction.

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And that's where I first became
involved in elder abuse as an issue.

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As part of that process, we set up a,
what originally was supposed to be just an

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elder abuse clinic down in our SBU office
to kind of provide that specialized advice

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and begin engaging with older people.

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Now, this might be pulling back the
curtains a little bit, but one of the

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reasons why I became engaged in this, the
area of estate planning, was beginning

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with it as a bit of a Trojan horse in
order to discuss with older people the

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issues of elder abuse and to raise the
awareness about concerns about those

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issues using estate planning as a
lens in which to kind of bring people

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in to start discussing those issues.

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Because we found that if we set up a
education session about elder abuse or

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coercive control or something like that,
or family violence, many people would

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not wanna engage directly with that.

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Those programs and so we kind of set
them up as wills and estates and kind of

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estate planning and we discuss the kind
of estate planning but bring in those

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elements of, but whilst you're doing your
estate planning, it is really important

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to think about risk and managing your
family and being aware of people trying

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to pressure you or control you into
making certain decisions in relation

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to your estate and the different kind
of warning signs that might arise in

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relation to keeping an eye to that.

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And so essentially that's kind of what
brought me into this, this space as

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I came into the space of assisting
older people with their estates.

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And that's why very much my perspective
is very different from a lot of my

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colleagues in that I come at the
question of estate planning from a risk

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mitigation and almost a family violence.

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A rubric then rather than purely
just the kind of often commercial

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and angle that a lot of other
solicitors may, may come at it from.

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I'd like to think that it's becoming more
common for solicitors to turn their mind

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to those questions when engaging with
people in relation to estate planning

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and will drafting, but as I said, will
move slowly and that's a slow process.

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But as I said, so that's the kind of
background of how I kind of came into this

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Yeah.

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This space and why my perspective
is a little different than

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some of my colleagues.

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Well, I, I love your perspective,
will, and I have so many

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questions about this now.

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Sure.

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So tell me, you, you talk about risk
mitigation, so what sort of things

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do people need to be aware of?

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What should they be?

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The alarm bells?

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So I'd say there's two categories
in relation to this question,

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and this often comes up when
assisting and doing presentations.

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I often say to people when they attend
my presentations that it's actually

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the people who are engaged with their
community, who are willing to come out

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and are coming out to a function or
engage with a community group who have

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invited me to attend, to speak to them.

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They're actually at a lower
risk in a lot of circumstances.

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'cause one of the ways to really prevent
risk is to be engaged with the community

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and be engaged with other people.

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Be talking to them about what's going on.

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Be talking to them about your plans.

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The more people that know what you want
to happen in relation to your estate,

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means that there's more people to kind
of recognize if something's going wrong

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or if there's been a sudden change.

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'cause that's one of the
big kind of warning signs.

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The classic is if multiple wills are being
made within very short periods of time.

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Yeah, then that's a big red flag.

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If it seems like every 12 months or even
shorter, a new will's being drafted.

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00:13:56,925 --> 00:14:00,195
That often means that there are
multiple parties pressuring someone

228
00:14:00,195 --> 00:14:04,125
to change their will, and so it's
just a game of who trying to get

229
00:14:04,125 --> 00:14:05,895
in to get that last will done.

230
00:14:06,135 --> 00:14:06,285
Yeah.

231
00:14:06,285 --> 00:14:06,375
Right.

232
00:14:07,245 --> 00:14:12,375
But people who are not isolated, who are
in community are in a much better place

233
00:14:12,375 --> 00:14:16,575
to be able to say, I'm experiencing this
pressure and have support come around

234
00:14:16,575 --> 00:14:18,555
to try and protect them from that.

235
00:14:18,855 --> 00:14:22,785
What often happens when I do these kind
of presentations and talk to the community

236
00:14:22,785 --> 00:14:28,395
is that it will be the people that attend
those kind of engaged in community may

237
00:14:28,395 --> 00:14:33,465
have someone who is more isolated, a
neighbor, a friend, someone else who's

238
00:14:33,465 --> 00:14:38,295
in their retirement village, who perhaps
isn't as engaged, who then they can

239
00:14:38,295 --> 00:14:41,265
recognize the signs, and often it is.

240
00:14:41,865 --> 00:14:46,064
Part of the first thing to notice
is if they are very isolated,

241
00:14:46,425 --> 00:14:47,594
it's not always the case.

242
00:14:47,625 --> 00:14:52,665
Some people just like they're quiet and
like be, not to kind of be as social,

243
00:14:53,235 --> 00:14:59,235
but often it is a sign of someone who
is essentially being isolated rather

244
00:14:59,235 --> 00:15:01,574
than doing it upon their own volition.

245
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:02,449
Yeah.

246
00:15:03,370 --> 00:15:09,015
Secondly is if someone is seemingly
isolated, but there is one person that

247
00:15:09,015 --> 00:15:13,995
is constantly there or is attending
and there's the kind of, there's

248
00:15:13,995 --> 00:15:18,045
issue of obviously yelling, bruises.

249
00:15:18,135 --> 00:15:22,694
There's all those kind of classic
things that people should take note of,

250
00:15:22,814 --> 00:15:25,574
especially when it comes to neighbors
or people they're in community with.

251
00:15:26,055 --> 00:15:26,265
Yeah.

252
00:15:26,295 --> 00:15:29,234
Some of those things are, are
kind of general family violence,

253
00:15:29,234 --> 00:15:30,795
things that should be of concern.

254
00:15:30,885 --> 00:15:34,005
As I said, isolation, canceling of events.

255
00:15:34,574 --> 00:15:37,785
You know, if I have a, someone
who I live with in a retirement

256
00:15:37,785 --> 00:15:39,405
village and we catch up.

257
00:15:40,064 --> 00:15:41,295
I like to reach out to people.

258
00:15:41,295 --> 00:15:45,525
I, you know, I invite 'em for coffee every
week just to kind of touch base, which

259
00:15:45,525 --> 00:15:48,405
is something I would encourage people to
do if they're concerned about, someone

260
00:15:48,405 --> 00:15:52,094
needs to kind of go, let's go out, let's
go get a cup of tea, bring them out of

261
00:15:52,094 --> 00:15:53,984
their home, or even a visit their home.

262
00:15:53,984 --> 00:15:56,775
And that's always a good one as
well, is if you're able to visit the

263
00:15:56,775 --> 00:16:00,584
home, have a look around if you're
seeing, you know, damaged property

264
00:16:00,584 --> 00:16:03,555
and things like that, that might be
a sign that something is happening.

265
00:16:04,035 --> 00:16:06,285
And this goes for a whole,
whole range of issues.

266
00:16:06,344 --> 00:16:08,535
I mean, it's not just in terms
of family violence, in terms of

267
00:16:08,535 --> 00:16:10,275
health, mental health in general.

268
00:16:10,275 --> 00:16:12,795
So this is, yeah, what
things do just broadly,

269
00:16:13,094 --> 00:16:17,390
and we know now from statistics
that loneliness is, is a absolutely

270
00:16:17,505 --> 00:16:21,435
significant contributor to both mental
health and also physical health.

271
00:16:21,435 --> 00:16:22,185
Uh, yes.

272
00:16:22,244 --> 00:16:22,454
Yeah.

273
00:16:22,574 --> 00:16:22,964
Yeah.

274
00:16:23,025 --> 00:16:27,645
And this is why, you know, again,
going on a bit of a tangent, why I

275
00:16:27,974 --> 00:16:32,234
kind of, in terms of the Aged Care
Village system, it has its issues.

276
00:16:32,474 --> 00:16:36,525
I deal with it quite a bit, but that, as
I said, the kind of that village model.

277
00:16:36,855 --> 00:16:40,965
Is I think quite a good one because
it kind of creates that community.

278
00:16:41,235 --> 00:16:44,745
And I've found that the community
that can be created around a village

279
00:16:44,835 --> 00:16:47,085
is one of its major benefits.

280
00:16:47,415 --> 00:16:51,585
But as I said, so those kind of things
of if you engage with someone and let's

281
00:16:51,585 --> 00:16:56,625
say they start canceling or they, you
attended their address and you see

282
00:16:56,985 --> 00:16:58,695
that they're, they're not doing great.

283
00:16:59,235 --> 00:17:02,265
Now that doesn't necessarily mean
that there's elder abuse going on,

284
00:17:02,265 --> 00:17:03,765
but obviously those overcome things.

285
00:17:05,150 --> 00:17:09,285
The idea being that hopefully if you
engage with someone, they will open

286
00:17:09,285 --> 00:17:12,105
up and tell you what's been going on.

287
00:17:12,555 --> 00:17:19,454
And so one of the things that I think is
unfortunate is that prior to, I've seen

288
00:17:19,454 --> 00:17:23,685
this kind of evolution, as I said about
in this engagement, it was originally

289
00:17:23,685 --> 00:17:28,635
thought that the kind of concern in
relation to elders was often financial.

290
00:17:29,115 --> 00:17:32,355
And there are often financial elements,
and that's where the kind of will

291
00:17:32,355 --> 00:17:34,245
and estate planning comes into it.

292
00:17:34,620 --> 00:17:38,310
But in a lot of sense, the, the
most commonly and the kind of base

293
00:17:38,310 --> 00:17:43,740
level of which often the other parts
are built upon in relation to elder

294
00:17:43,740 --> 00:17:47,220
abuse is psychological and emotional.

295
00:17:48,060 --> 00:17:48,120
Yeah.

296
00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:51,510
That's kind of the cornerstone upon
which all these other things develop.

297
00:17:51,510 --> 00:17:55,980
So you can often tell when someone is
talking about their relationship with

298
00:17:55,980 --> 00:18:02,175
their children, with other relatives,
they'll often say things like, oh, they,

299
00:18:02,430 --> 00:18:08,910
they yell at me when I mention X, Y, and
Z. Or you know, they tell me that things

300
00:18:08,910 --> 00:18:12,810
like, oh, well, you know, if I'm not
gonna do X, Y, and Z, then they're not

301
00:18:12,810 --> 00:18:14,940
gonna bring their grandkids over to visit.

302
00:18:15,540 --> 00:18:20,100
Now that's not of the same level
of someone saying, I'm gonna hurt

303
00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:24,570
you if you don't write my, give
me the house and the will, but.

304
00:18:25,020 --> 00:18:32,250
It's still upon that spectrum of
behaviors, which the courts consider to be

305
00:18:32,250 --> 00:18:34,530
elder abuse in a form of family violence.

306
00:18:34,770 --> 00:18:38,280
I just, even me, I personally,
when you, when you said, you know,

307
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,810
I'll threaten to, to not bring the
grandkids, I'm like, wow, that's,

308
00:18:42,810 --> 00:18:44,730
that's, that's a terrible thing to say.

309
00:18:44,730 --> 00:18:44,880
It's a

310
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,900
very, it's a very, that's a, that's
a quite a, a common, common thing.

311
00:18:49,350 --> 00:18:51,150
Now, it often won't be
as explicit as that.

312
00:18:51,390 --> 00:18:51,810
That's the thing.

313
00:18:51,810 --> 00:18:55,080
It won't be as explicit that people's,
especially with relationships with their

314
00:18:55,080 --> 00:19:00,000
parents, these are very, not to sound
like the doctor from Vienna, but these are

315
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:05,100
very complex and intricate relationships
with a lot of psychological ballot

316
00:19:05,130 --> 00:19:07,620
baggage and that comes along with them.

317
00:19:08,130 --> 00:19:11,850
But as I said, it often we'll be as
explicit of that, but often it won't

318
00:19:11,850 --> 00:19:13,800
be as explicit as that It will be.

319
00:19:14,070 --> 00:19:19,500
Well, if, you know, I'm, I'm
too busy to, to, if you won't

320
00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:21,615
help me with X, Y, and Z, then.

321
00:19:22,439 --> 00:19:30,149
Well, listen, it's gonna be too difficult
for me to come and visit for Easter or to

322
00:19:30,209 --> 00:19:32,550
set up Christmas or something like that.

323
00:19:32,550 --> 00:19:38,310
So, as I said, the kind of pulling
away access to the kind of community

324
00:19:38,310 --> 00:19:42,570
and family that it's the kind
of core of their communities,

325
00:19:42,570 --> 00:19:44,100
those kind of family connections.

326
00:19:44,399 --> 00:19:49,199
And so, as I said, that's on a
spectrum of behaviors, right?

327
00:19:49,290 --> 00:19:53,909
You know, often that very kind of,
that psychological and emotional

328
00:19:54,209 --> 00:19:58,409
abusive behavior and controlling
behavior is on a spectrum that at

329
00:19:58,409 --> 00:20:01,770
the very end you have the kind of
extreme forms of violence and threats.

330
00:20:01,889 --> 00:20:05,550
And often there's, as I said,
it's not explicit, it's implied in

331
00:20:05,550 --> 00:20:11,610
relation to, well, if you want me
to be engaged in your life, then

332
00:20:11,610 --> 00:20:13,439
you are gonna have to support me.

333
00:20:13,679 --> 00:20:18,840
And that kind of saying that my
engagement with you has a cost, a monetary

334
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,465
cost is often what we see, you know?

335
00:20:22,185 --> 00:20:28,905
If you really cared about me and your
grandkids, you would give us the money.

336
00:20:29,115 --> 00:20:29,265
Yeah.

337
00:20:29,865 --> 00:20:29,955
Right.

338
00:20:29,955 --> 00:20:32,805
That kind of thing is,
is often what happens or

339
00:20:33,015 --> 00:20:33,285
you

340
00:20:33,285 --> 00:20:36,345
would give us extra in the the will.

341
00:20:36,495 --> 00:20:39,345
So as I said, this is what we see.

342
00:20:39,465 --> 00:20:44,985
That's the thing to, that I, I'd ask
people to be most kind of clued into

343
00:20:45,075 --> 00:20:52,185
in relation to the risks, is it's often
those things that form the foundation

344
00:20:52,515 --> 00:20:59,145
that will then be used or lead to the more
significant financial issues and financial

345
00:20:59,145 --> 00:21:03,735
abuse that can have the long lasting
impact on the quality of life of this,

346
00:21:03,825 --> 00:21:06,105
beyond just the, the kind of impact of.

347
00:21:06,554 --> 00:21:09,915
Living in a circumstance where you have
those kind of relationships with your

348
00:21:09,915 --> 00:21:14,145
cousin family, especially with someone
who's older and may not have the capacity

349
00:21:14,145 --> 00:21:15,915
to kind of mend those relationships.

350
00:21:15,915 --> 00:21:19,965
So I often tell people, if someone is
telling you about their relationship

351
00:21:19,965 --> 00:21:24,975
with their children and they're
saying things that sound like they're

352
00:21:24,975 --> 00:21:32,895
being coerced or there's controlling
behaviors or blackmailing or emotional

353
00:21:32,895 --> 00:21:37,754
blackmail, things like that, those are
the things that I would say, well, you

354
00:21:37,754 --> 00:21:39,915
know, it's worth exploring those more.

355
00:21:40,365 --> 00:21:45,284
Some people exaggerate, some people,
you know, we kind of maybe talk a

356
00:21:45,675 --> 00:21:49,725
bit more dramatically about sometimes
about our relationships, but often

357
00:21:49,725 --> 00:21:51,705
that hides a, the truth of the matter.

358
00:21:52,395 --> 00:21:56,895
You know, the, the classic, well, my
son never calls that kind of thing.

359
00:21:56,895 --> 00:22:01,875
You know, see movies, it's a bit of
a punchline, but sometimes that can

360
00:22:01,905 --> 00:22:04,544
hide a real, a coercive relationship.

361
00:22:05,295 --> 00:22:09,825
Affection is provided on
the basis of receiving,

362
00:22:10,425 --> 00:22:10,545
um,

363
00:22:11,055 --> 00:22:12,135
certain things in return.

364
00:22:12,675 --> 00:22:17,145
And just on that point, will, um,
so you mentioned previously that

365
00:22:17,475 --> 00:22:20,955
you yourself actually take people
out for a coffee and have a chat

366
00:22:21,375 --> 00:22:22,755
catch up and see where they're at.

367
00:22:23,025 --> 00:22:26,385
So if someone is in a community,
and it doesn't matter whether it

368
00:22:26,385 --> 00:22:30,045
be a village such as a retirement
village, but let's, let's talk more

369
00:22:30,045 --> 00:22:31,815
broadly in relation to community.

370
00:22:31,845 --> 00:22:35,985
'cause we know that statistically
there's only, you know, a very

371
00:22:35,985 --> 00:22:40,335
small number of people who actually
have created their wills and given

372
00:22:40,335 --> 00:22:41,955
consideration to estate planning.

373
00:22:42,255 --> 00:22:45,585
So this is, uh, something that can
certainly be discussed on a much

374
00:22:45,585 --> 00:22:49,185
broader scale because they're not
all going through the will process.

375
00:22:49,185 --> 00:22:53,775
So if we do notice these behaviors,
what is the sort of things

376
00:22:53,775 --> 00:22:55,245
that you sort of talk about?

377
00:22:55,245 --> 00:22:57,975
What sort of conversation
starters do you suggest to people?

378
00:22:58,245 --> 00:23:01,755
Well, as I said, asking those
questions about their family, when

379
00:23:01,755 --> 00:23:03,345
did you last hear from X, Y, and z?

380
00:23:04,110 --> 00:23:08,130
And if someone that you don't know very
well ask them about their family, what is

381
00:23:08,130 --> 00:23:10,320
their relationship like with their kids?

382
00:23:10,710 --> 00:23:12,630
It becomes almost, quite obvious.

383
00:23:12,690 --> 00:23:16,290
Often, you know, when you sit down
with someone and you start asking those

384
00:23:16,290 --> 00:23:22,020
questions, you know, there's always,
if their eyes light up, when they start

385
00:23:22,020 --> 00:23:24,900
talking about their kids and their
grandkids and they want to tell you about

386
00:23:24,900 --> 00:23:29,160
what they're doing and how proud they're
and happy they're about them, generally

387
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:34,140
that's a pretty good sign that, listen,
there's not much going on here except

388
00:23:34,230 --> 00:23:35,880
perhaps this person's just a bit lonely.

389
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:40,950
Or they might be just going through
a tough time, but if it upsets them

390
00:23:41,010 --> 00:23:46,440
to talk about their family and their
closest relatives causes them distress.

391
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,460
Or they're automatically just
start trying to change the subject,

392
00:23:50,580 --> 00:23:54,270
that's a sign that there might
be something worth probing more.

393
00:23:54,270 --> 00:23:58,920
Now, I'm in a, a different position,
so often when I talk to people

394
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,610
that it's in the context of a,
I mean, within my own community.

395
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,230
I'm not in community with that many
older people, but in terms of, you

396
00:24:07,230 --> 00:24:08,700
know, family, friends, and the like.

397
00:24:09,270 --> 00:24:13,410
But in terms of my professional work, in
terms of the people that I engage with

398
00:24:13,830 --> 00:24:20,790
professionally, people kind of expect for
me to probe and expect me to ask difficult

399
00:24:20,790 --> 00:24:25,860
questions because I need that information
if I'm gonna advise them accurately

400
00:24:25,980 --> 00:24:27,840
and to give them the best advice.

401
00:24:28,365 --> 00:24:30,285
So it's quite different
if you are a friend.

402
00:24:30,285 --> 00:24:33,705
You often don't want to push too
hard 'cause they'll often cause

403
00:24:33,705 --> 00:24:38,475
people to kind of withdraw and
sometimes it takes time and building

404
00:24:38,475 --> 00:24:40,365
a relationship for people to open up.

405
00:24:40,665 --> 00:24:43,845
But as I said, it's a bit
more of an art than a science.

406
00:24:44,025 --> 00:24:45,075
It really is.

407
00:24:45,135 --> 00:24:46,845
There's kind of body language cues.

408
00:24:46,845 --> 00:24:50,955
There's, um, the way people to
describe their relationships

409
00:24:51,315 --> 00:24:56,145
or lack of relationship or
refusal to broach certain topics

410
00:24:56,445 --> 00:24:56,805
Yeah.

411
00:24:56,835 --> 00:24:58,815
That people should keep an eye out for.

412
00:24:58,875 --> 00:25:02,715
And you might be like, well, you know,
it might be a process where you, you

413
00:25:02,715 --> 00:25:06,975
kind of, your neighbor in the village
doesn't seem to come to any of the kind of

414
00:25:06,975 --> 00:25:12,075
events or, you know, you barely even see
them come out and, you know, you wave at

415
00:25:12,075 --> 00:25:16,695
them and they kind of begrudgingly kind
of wave back but don't really engage.

416
00:25:17,025 --> 00:25:20,295
You know, you think, well it might be
worth just knocking on the door and

417
00:25:20,295 --> 00:25:21,735
seeing if they want to have a coffee.

418
00:25:22,035 --> 00:25:25,845
Or when you see them next, you kind of
say hello and go over and have a chat.

419
00:25:26,265 --> 00:25:27,405
Invite them for a coffee.

420
00:25:28,034 --> 00:25:31,695
And then, as I said, as you kind
of engage with them, you may

421
00:25:31,695 --> 00:25:33,945
start seeing more of those signs.

422
00:25:34,395 --> 00:25:34,425
Mm.

423
00:25:35,325 --> 00:25:40,215
But sometimes it's worth just continuing
on that process and gradually building

424
00:25:40,215 --> 00:25:46,695
the relationship over time so that they
feel comfortable coming to you and having

425
00:25:46,695 --> 00:25:50,355
that space over for someone to be able to
come to you by building that relationship,

426
00:25:50,655 --> 00:25:52,215
bringing them into community.

427
00:25:52,889 --> 00:25:57,210
They feel like they're not so
isolated and you know, not everybody's

428
00:25:57,210 --> 00:25:58,560
built for that kind of work.

429
00:25:58,830 --> 00:26:01,860
But as I said, for those that
are, those are the things I

430
00:26:01,860 --> 00:26:03,000
would encourage them to do.

431
00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:06,510
Everybody's different in terms of what
kind of conversations and how it's

432
00:26:06,510 --> 00:26:11,100
best to engage with them, what kind of
community they're gonna be drawn to.

433
00:26:11,399 --> 00:26:15,030
You know, certain people might
want to, you know, be drawn to the,

434
00:26:15,510 --> 00:26:19,470
the local bowls club or playing
golf or whatever it might be.

435
00:26:19,679 --> 00:26:23,490
Whilst others, it might be, you
know, just a cup of tea or a cup

436
00:26:23,490 --> 00:26:25,409
of coffee or whatever it might be.

437
00:26:25,409 --> 00:26:29,310
As I said, the, the hobbies and
engaging people in those kind of

438
00:26:29,310 --> 00:26:33,689
things is a good way to kind of break
down those barriers where a whole

439
00:26:33,689 --> 00:26:36,810
myriad of issues can be facilitated.

440
00:26:36,810 --> 00:26:40,590
And elder abuse is just one of those,
like you mentioned, in relation to

441
00:26:40,590 --> 00:26:43,679
loneliness, mental health and physical
health and all those kind of things.

442
00:26:43,980 --> 00:26:45,899
Those things all are kind of.

443
00:26:46,335 --> 00:26:50,805
Venn diagram and the, yeah, the kind of
connection between a lot of these things

444
00:26:51,195 --> 00:26:57,375
is, as I said, the first line of defense
against a lot of these issues is community

445
00:26:57,375 --> 00:26:59,775
and being engaged with your community.

446
00:26:59,835 --> 00:27:04,275
And so having those connections
beyond just your family can

447
00:27:04,275 --> 00:27:08,025
often be a resource for people
when engaging with their family.

448
00:27:08,955 --> 00:27:14,715
I love just the simplicity of what you
said earlier in relation to the response,

449
00:27:14,715 --> 00:27:18,165
like you asking a question and then just
waiting to see what their response is.

450
00:27:18,165 --> 00:27:22,185
And you can clearly see like when people
do light up and they do get excited

451
00:27:22,185 --> 00:27:25,395
talking about their family and their
grandchildren and, and things like that.

452
00:27:25,395 --> 00:27:28,575
So I think that, like you said,
that there's so many cues.

453
00:27:28,575 --> 00:27:33,705
So, and you know, the thing is that it
can be a process, but the beautiful thing

454
00:27:33,705 --> 00:27:37,515
is that it's a win-win, you know, because
you're actually getting to know someone

455
00:27:37,515 --> 00:27:41,385
within your community and, and that's, you
know, that's always a beautiful thing to

456
00:27:41,385 --> 00:27:43,095
actually get to know a neighbor, you know?

457
00:27:43,635 --> 00:27:45,225
And listen, it's a two-way street.

458
00:27:45,285 --> 00:27:45,345
You

459
00:27:45,975 --> 00:27:46,635
never know what's

460
00:27:46,635 --> 00:27:49,695
gonna happen in relation to yourself,
where you may need to rely on that person.

461
00:27:49,965 --> 00:27:50,235
Yeah.

462
00:27:50,295 --> 00:27:50,565
Um,

463
00:27:50,775 --> 00:27:54,525
but I mean, as I said, we often,
in terms of the law, I should

464
00:27:54,525 --> 00:27:59,235
mention and in relation to the
legal solutions are very different.

465
00:27:59,295 --> 00:28:05,955
But they are often, I would say at the end
or something that would be considered, you

466
00:28:05,955 --> 00:28:11,865
know, once you've kind of engaged in these
processes or if it's clear that there's

467
00:28:11,955 --> 00:28:13,635
an emergency and an immediate risk.

468
00:28:13,635 --> 00:28:18,165
So obviously contacting the police if
there's an immediate threat or risk

469
00:28:18,165 --> 00:28:24,555
of harm, so violence, other things, or
engaging with a service such as ours

470
00:28:24,555 --> 00:28:29,445
to assist in relation to approaching
the court for legal protection.

471
00:28:30,075 --> 00:28:34,725
But in terms of the stage where you're
not sure you're worried about someone.

472
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,550
Rather than you know that something
is happening and you, there needs

473
00:28:38,550 --> 00:28:44,310
to be a direct intervention at that
time, is to engage with the person

474
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:46,140
and bring them into community.

475
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:46,890
That's what I advise.

476
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,080
It's funny 'cause that's exactly my, what
was gonna be my next question will was

477
00:28:52,290 --> 00:28:57,060
like, if you feel like that there is an
immediate threat or you feel like that you

478
00:28:57,060 --> 00:29:01,140
have got concerns, that there is something
going on, what was the next step?

479
00:29:01,140 --> 00:29:03,000
So thanks for answering that one.

480
00:29:03,030 --> 00:29:04,800
You've jumped ahead,
you'll do me out of a job.

481
00:29:06,420 --> 00:29:11,340
Um, and there's also organizations
such as Seniors Rights Victoria here

482
00:29:11,340 --> 00:29:15,030
in Victoria isn't there, that you
can also refer people to, to get

483
00:29:15,030 --> 00:29:16,740
to know what their rights are and

484
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:17,580
get advice.

485
00:29:17,580 --> 00:29:18,540
Yeah, absolutely.

486
00:29:18,630 --> 00:29:18,690
Yeah.

487
00:29:18,690 --> 00:29:24,330
Our seniors rights, they're there to
talk to people and advise them and to

488
00:29:24,330 --> 00:29:27,750
know our services similar to seniors
rights and that, we'll, we'll talk

489
00:29:27,750 --> 00:29:31,740
you through if you're concerned or
if you think you are concerned about

490
00:29:31,740 --> 00:29:35,250
yourself or, so, as I said, the one
thing I would say in relation to

491
00:29:35,310 --> 00:29:38,280
engaging with a solicitor is that.

492
00:29:38,774 --> 00:29:41,355
For instance, for ourselves, we
can't give third party advice.

493
00:29:41,355 --> 00:29:46,125
So if you are concerned about a third
party, then the best thing I would

494
00:29:46,125 --> 00:29:49,995
say is to encourage them to speak to
someone and get that legal advice.

495
00:29:50,415 --> 00:29:53,985
And just on that, will, I've done
talks at daycare centers and things

496
00:29:53,985 --> 00:29:56,115
like that to, to older groups.

497
00:29:56,115 --> 00:29:59,565
Something that I've found that
there's been some hesitation

498
00:29:59,565 --> 00:30:04,905
with is, is that people aren't
confident to know what the law is.

499
00:30:05,325 --> 00:30:09,284
Uh, and I've suggested to them that
that's nothing to worry about because

500
00:30:09,524 --> 00:30:12,675
there's people like you will, that
they go to and you know the law

501
00:30:13,784 --> 00:30:14,205
apparently.

502
00:30:14,205 --> 00:30:19,905
So, um, uh, yes, I would say that
knowledge is powerful for people.

503
00:30:20,205 --> 00:30:23,145
So, you know, it's worth people
taking the time to try and

504
00:30:23,145 --> 00:30:24,405
understand these things, but.

505
00:30:24,930 --> 00:30:28,890
Especially in this space, it is kind
of common sense in a lot of senses.

506
00:30:29,100 --> 00:30:32,310
The kind of, the bit of the smell
test, the pub test, and what the

507
00:30:32,340 --> 00:30:34,860
lawyers say is the man off the bus.

508
00:30:35,190 --> 00:30:40,170
And that's why I say I, I often
find that most people have a pretty

509
00:30:40,170 --> 00:30:42,000
good nose for this kind of thing.

510
00:30:42,525 --> 00:30:47,385
And that's what I found from my
engagement with older people is that

511
00:30:47,655 --> 00:30:51,435
they'll often approach me and say, I've
got these concerns about my friend,

512
00:30:51,825 --> 00:30:58,365
and they're spot on in terms of their
suspicions that this is not right and

513
00:30:58,605 --> 00:31:00,765
this is potentially illegal behavior.

514
00:31:01,395 --> 00:31:05,925
So most people's instincts in relation
to this area in particular in relation to

515
00:31:06,075 --> 00:31:11,295
elder abuse and concerns about someone's
estate, that things going awry there

516
00:31:11,355 --> 00:31:16,095
is pretty spot on in terms of the kind
of legislation, the Family Violence

517
00:31:16,095 --> 00:31:20,475
Protection Act is actually relatively
straightforward in its drafting 'cause

518
00:31:20,475 --> 00:31:22,575
it's a relatively modern legislation.

519
00:31:22,575 --> 00:31:24,375
We're not talking about
things that go back.

520
00:31:24,465 --> 00:31:27,645
Certain parts of the law that go
back to 300 years that are much

521
00:31:27,645 --> 00:31:29,625
more archaic and complicated.

522
00:31:30,555 --> 00:31:35,535
It's in its execution and its subject
matter that it is complicated.

523
00:31:35,955 --> 00:31:40,935
The messiness of real life that often
interferes with what lawyers would like.

524
00:31:41,445 --> 00:31:46,064
To be able to deal within legislation
and the lack of that history.

525
00:31:46,844 --> 00:31:52,274
You know, family violence wasn't
necessarily considered a crime until

526
00:31:52,274 --> 00:31:57,135
relatively recently, and so you have
this situation where the kind of

527
00:31:57,135 --> 00:32:03,104
history is short and so often we're
kind of developing it now, developing

528
00:32:03,314 --> 00:32:06,195
what's called the jurisprudence in
relation to these matters are relevant

529
00:32:06,614 --> 00:32:08,175
compared to other areas of law.

530
00:32:08,564 --> 00:32:13,274
It's quite young, so as I said, I
often defer to people's instincts

531
00:32:13,395 --> 00:32:14,685
in relation to these things.

532
00:32:14,804 --> 00:32:21,645
If you think your friend is at risk or
is being controlled or used by one of

533
00:32:21,645 --> 00:32:26,774
their relatives, I'll not second guess
you by bringing up a certain case and

534
00:32:26,774 --> 00:32:28,544
say, well, this is, this says that.

535
00:32:28,544 --> 00:32:30,074
That's probably not accurate.

536
00:32:30,675 --> 00:32:32,415
That's not what the law says.

537
00:32:32,504 --> 00:32:35,775
I'll often defer to people in
the community who have a very

538
00:32:35,775 --> 00:32:37,035
good sense about these things.

539
00:32:37,035 --> 00:32:40,905
And then it can be tested against
the kind of, the, the current

540
00:32:41,115 --> 00:32:44,925
legislation rather than working
the other way around, I guess.

541
00:32:45,405 --> 00:32:49,845
So let's have a think about, or
probably move more really focusing

542
00:32:49,850 --> 00:32:51,585
on the law aspect and the estate.

543
00:32:51,675 --> 00:32:51,765
Mm-hmm.

544
00:32:52,065 --> 00:32:53,955
Planning aspect of things.

545
00:32:54,465 --> 00:33:00,405
So how can seniors, you know, ensure
that their wishes and what they

546
00:33:00,405 --> 00:33:04,395
want to happen and their values,
uh, actually legally binding?

547
00:33:04,395 --> 00:33:05,475
What do they have to do?

548
00:33:05,595 --> 00:33:06,915
Is it through a will or?

549
00:33:07,004 --> 00:33:07,485
Absolutely.

550
00:33:07,485 --> 00:33:13,065
So if you don't have a will that lays
out clear language, how you wish your

551
00:33:13,065 --> 00:33:18,285
estate and everything you own to be
distributed upon your passing, then

552
00:33:18,285 --> 00:33:19,905
you'll pass what's called intestate.

553
00:33:20,535 --> 00:33:22,695
Now, intestate is pretty hard and fast.

554
00:33:22,695 --> 00:33:24,465
It's just what the court determines.

555
00:33:24,780 --> 00:33:30,060
And it's basically the spouse being the
first in line, children being the second.

556
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:34,200
I think it's parents after that, and then
it kind of goes down a hierarchy with

557
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,360
siblings, cousins, that kind of thing.

558
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:41,790
So it really takes the control out of your
hands in terms of who gets what and when.

559
00:33:42,510 --> 00:33:46,140
So will can be as simple or as
complicated as you'd like it to be.

560
00:33:46,140 --> 00:33:50,100
Really, there's a lot of powerful
things you can do with a will,

561
00:33:50,100 --> 00:33:53,190
especially if you have a larger estate
that you wish to protect through

562
00:33:53,250 --> 00:33:54,840
what's called testamentary trust.

563
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,320
But then we're getting very much into the
weeds simulation, to the actual drafting.

564
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:03,210
But if you have, I always say
to people, the will is gonna be

565
00:34:03,270 --> 00:34:06,360
as complex as both your estate.

566
00:34:06,810 --> 00:34:10,020
So what you own, what
you own is complicated.

567
00:34:10,409 --> 00:34:13,770
Some people have quite
sophisticated financial arrangements

568
00:34:13,770 --> 00:34:14,940
and property arrangements.

569
00:34:15,449 --> 00:34:19,920
Then your will is gonna reflect
that, or should reflect that and

570
00:34:19,980 --> 00:34:22,199
or if your family is complicated.

571
00:34:23,130 --> 00:34:30,210
So let's say you have step siblings,
stepchildren, your children have

572
00:34:30,210 --> 00:34:32,520
stepchildren or more things like that.

573
00:34:33,090 --> 00:34:37,320
People's families are very complicated
and can be very complicated, where

574
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:42,240
it's not just, I distribute this
to my child or my partner, the

575
00:34:42,240 --> 00:34:43,710
will's gonna have to reflect that.

576
00:34:44,310 --> 00:34:51,060
So the way to ensure that it does
reflect what you wish to happen,

577
00:34:51,780 --> 00:34:56,610
especially if it's complicated, is to
engage a solicitor to draft your will.

578
00:34:57,270 --> 00:35:01,980
Wills compared to a lot of other
legal work are relatively inexpensive

579
00:35:02,610 --> 00:35:06,690
and currently the process in
relation to the creation of a will

580
00:35:06,900 --> 00:35:08,310
is simpler than it's ever been.

581
00:35:08,940 --> 00:35:13,470
And the reason for that is
through technology, essentially.

582
00:35:13,530 --> 00:35:18,060
The main thing is that what actually
sparked this big kind of change

583
00:35:18,060 --> 00:35:21,690
in shift was the COVID pandemic.

584
00:35:22,754 --> 00:35:27,645
Social distancing obviously still needed
to be kept being made over that period.

585
00:35:27,915 --> 00:35:31,964
And so that caused a lot of solicitors
to innovate in relation to how

586
00:35:31,964 --> 00:35:34,154
they went about crafting wills.

587
00:35:34,154 --> 00:35:39,404
And it's become a much easier and more
efficient process where essentially

588
00:35:39,495 --> 00:35:43,995
it can all be done remotely, including
the signing and the witnessing can

589
00:35:43,995 --> 00:35:45,705
all be done electronically these days.

590
00:35:45,705 --> 00:35:50,685
So especially for people with limited
mobility and limited access to

591
00:35:50,685 --> 00:35:52,725
transportation, that's a big boom.

592
00:35:53,415 --> 00:35:53,654
That's great.

593
00:35:54,225 --> 00:35:57,765
And so essentially, if
you are looking for.

594
00:35:57,825 --> 00:36:02,415
A solicitor, a good place to go
is the Law Institute of Victoria.

595
00:36:02,685 --> 00:36:07,935
Or if you are concerned about whether
you need a will or whether you need to

596
00:36:07,935 --> 00:36:11,625
update your will, if you've got a will,
but you did it 30 odd years ago and you're

597
00:36:11,625 --> 00:36:16,605
not sure whether it's fit for purpose,
again, a organization like the CLC or

598
00:36:16,605 --> 00:36:20,805
Community Legal Center or senior's rights
to just ask them and then they may be

599
00:36:20,805 --> 00:36:24,404
able to assist you for a referral for
someone who will draft that will for you.

600
00:36:24,884 --> 00:36:30,495
So as you said, the reason why getting a
lawyer to draft your will is not just that

601
00:36:30,555 --> 00:36:35,024
they do that work, they draft it and they
take all the details and they do all that

602
00:36:35,085 --> 00:36:39,884
work for you, and they'll talk you through
how to effectuate what you want to happen.

603
00:36:39,944 --> 00:36:44,294
Through the drafting of the will, they
also take on the responsibility of making

604
00:36:44,294 --> 00:36:46,335
sure that it's accurate and it works.

605
00:36:46,424 --> 00:36:51,435
So you can essentially write to rely
upon the expertise of the solicitor,

606
00:36:51,734 --> 00:36:53,205
the drafts that will for you.

607
00:36:53,745 --> 00:36:55,935
Whereas if you do a do it yourself will.

608
00:36:56,415 --> 00:37:00,585
Often it's a really simple,
straightforward will, they can work.

609
00:37:01,125 --> 00:37:05,415
But if you get something wrong in the
instructions and it's not signed or

610
00:37:05,415 --> 00:37:10,275
witnessed correctly or how it's worded
is not clear, you may end up in a

611
00:37:10,275 --> 00:37:14,265
situation where the court rejects that
will and you end up in a test date state.

612
00:37:15,045 --> 00:37:19,065
So as I said, that's the best
way to make sure your wishes are

613
00:37:19,065 --> 00:37:23,325
executed correctly, is by engaging
the solicitor to draft it for you.

614
00:37:24,240 --> 00:37:29,370
And we have links to all of the law
institutes in every state of Australia

615
00:37:29,370 --> 00:37:33,900
on the critical info support section
of the website because Fantastic.

616
00:37:34,020 --> 00:37:37,590
As we're aware, will, the laws
are different in every state

617
00:37:37,590 --> 00:37:38,880
of Australia, aren't they?

618
00:37:38,885 --> 00:37:39,005
That's correct.

619
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:39,960
That's correct.

620
00:37:40,260 --> 00:37:45,390
Um, so there is some uniformity in
relation to wills and estates, but there

621
00:37:45,390 --> 00:37:49,590
is obviously big differences, especially
in relation to the probate process.

622
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:55,140
So this is why I wouldn't want to
give any kind of very specific advice

623
00:37:55,500 --> 00:37:57,360
in relation to particular processes.

624
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,890
Victoria, recognizing that if someone's
listening to this in Queensland, I may

625
00:38:01,890 --> 00:38:06,390
go through a very D or a particular
places like Northern Territory or a CT.

626
00:38:06,780 --> 00:38:08,730
That may be a very different process.

627
00:38:09,510 --> 00:38:12,990
And can you just explain to people
what the word probate means?

628
00:38:13,230 --> 00:38:13,830
Oh, okay.

629
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:15,090
That's a good one.

630
00:38:15,270 --> 00:38:15,690
That's come up.

631
00:38:15,690 --> 00:38:22,800
So probate is the process by which
a will is determined to be valid.

632
00:38:23,820 --> 00:38:29,340
Empowers the executor, which is
the person that is appointed by

633
00:38:29,340 --> 00:38:33,510
the person that's drafted the will
to execute what is in the will.

634
00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:36,450
So it can essentially
do what the will says.

635
00:38:36,690 --> 00:38:40,140
So to distribute the estate and plan
the funeral and those kind of things.

636
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,530
So essentially what's required in
relation to that, and as I said, I'll

637
00:38:43,530 --> 00:38:46,890
go very broadly because there are some
differences in nuances, depending on what

638
00:38:46,890 --> 00:38:53,700
state you're in, is the documentation
is filed with the court saying that this

639
00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:57,805
is the final will that they drafted,
it's properly executed and the person's

640
00:38:57,900 --> 00:39:00,090
passed away and I'm the executor.

641
00:39:00,810 --> 00:39:01,560
And you file it.

642
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,980
And that's looked at by the
probate office of any particular

643
00:39:04,980 --> 00:39:10,500
jurisdiction and they will then it's
advertised, uh, that the person has

644
00:39:10,500 --> 00:39:12,150
passed and probate is being sought.

645
00:39:12,450 --> 00:39:15,000
And that's essentially when someone
else can potentially put their

646
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,570
hand up and say, wait a second,
I should be included on that.

647
00:39:18,570 --> 00:39:21,870
Will or I wanna challenge, I've
actually got a later in time will.

648
00:39:22,545 --> 00:39:26,235
So the most recent in time Will is the
one that that runs, which is why I was

649
00:39:26,235 --> 00:39:30,045
saying before about, you know, this
constant churning of wills is often

650
00:39:30,045 --> 00:39:31,424
a sign of something wrong happening.

651
00:39:31,815 --> 00:39:36,645
But as I said, so probate is the
process by which the court determines

652
00:39:36,645 --> 00:39:43,575
that this is the valid will, and then
essentially gives the person a document

653
00:39:43,785 --> 00:39:49,365
that the executor is able to go to
real estate agents, banks, any other

654
00:39:49,365 --> 00:39:54,555
institution, and say, I act on behalf
of the estate and therefore can deal

655
00:39:54,555 --> 00:39:57,765
with the property owned by that person.

656
00:39:58,154 --> 00:40:01,575
It's most important in particular in
relation to what lawyers call real

657
00:40:01,575 --> 00:40:04,964
property, but that's kind of property,
homes, land, that kind of thing.

658
00:40:05,384 --> 00:40:09,525
In order to transfer land of a
deceased person, you need to have

659
00:40:09,525 --> 00:40:12,645
something from the court saying
that I have the right to do that.

660
00:40:13,455 --> 00:40:16,485
And that's a really good example
you make because to transfer

661
00:40:16,485 --> 00:40:18,585
land, the probate is required.

662
00:40:18,590 --> 00:40:18,910
Mm-hmm.

663
00:40:19,035 --> 00:40:22,395
And I, I wanna ask you in a
minute about executors and, and

664
00:40:22,395 --> 00:40:23,985
the role of executors, but Sure.

665
00:40:23,985 --> 00:40:25,725
We'll, we'll hold that for a moment.

666
00:40:26,055 --> 00:40:31,095
The scenario when our friend died was he
had a will and his two adult children were

667
00:40:31,125 --> 00:40:34,185
traveling from interstate, so, oh, sorry.

668
00:40:34,275 --> 00:40:35,325
Overseas I should say.

669
00:40:35,715 --> 00:40:40,425
And I rang the probate office to
ascertain whether we needed to go

670
00:40:40,425 --> 00:40:42,135
through the probate office or not.

671
00:40:42,135 --> 00:40:47,235
And this was in Victoria, and,
and they said that it depends on

672
00:40:47,505 --> 00:40:52,725
whether the organizations that
we were dealing with required.

673
00:40:53,444 --> 00:40:54,404
Letter of probate.

674
00:40:54,794 --> 00:40:55,785
I'm like, okay.

675
00:40:56,055 --> 00:41:00,495
So then I had to actually ring or
collectively when the family arrived,

676
00:41:00,794 --> 00:41:04,484
we had to ring all of the different
organizations and all the accounts we

677
00:41:04,484 --> 00:41:08,265
needed to close to work out whether
they needed the probate to, whether

678
00:41:08,265 --> 00:41:09,734
we needed to go through the process.

679
00:41:10,334 --> 00:41:11,714
That was very confusing.

680
00:41:11,774 --> 00:41:14,774
Just, just on a personal note,
that one, yes, it can be.

681
00:41:14,774 --> 00:41:14,924
Yeah.

682
00:41:15,705 --> 00:41:18,765
Um, so the one that I personally
found when we went through that

683
00:41:18,765 --> 00:41:22,935
process was the bank was the one
that was really the deciding factor.

684
00:41:23,205 --> 00:41:27,524
He didn't have any property owned to him
in Australia at, at, well, we didn't have

685
00:41:27,524 --> 00:41:29,174
any property owned to him at that time.

686
00:41:29,625 --> 00:41:33,285
So it meant that the bank was the one
that was the deciding factor about

687
00:41:33,285 --> 00:41:34,995
whether we needed to get probate or not.

688
00:41:34,995 --> 00:41:37,395
And we didn't have to at that
particular point in time.

689
00:41:37,935 --> 00:41:41,120
But is that a common scenario that
what I went through will Absolutely.

690
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:41,240
Okay.

691
00:41:41,444 --> 00:41:41,805
Absolutely.

692
00:41:42,044 --> 00:41:42,314
Great.

693
00:41:42,345 --> 00:41:45,975
Um, and the part of the difficulty
is that it's not standardized.

694
00:41:46,365 --> 00:41:46,665
So

695
00:41:46,665 --> 00:41:52,484
each institution bank in particular has
different standards and monetary amounts,

696
00:41:52,845 --> 00:41:57,884
the required in each bank account in order
to need a letter of administration or not.

697
00:41:58,815 --> 00:42:04,125
I've actually been thinking that I think
that banks should follow the path of

698
00:42:04,154 --> 00:42:09,015
superannuation funds in relation to the
distribution of funds that are held in

699
00:42:09,015 --> 00:42:14,205
accounts rather than the kind of process
that's currently in place, at least to

700
00:42:14,205 --> 00:42:16,245
allow them to go up to a higher threshold.

701
00:42:17,234 --> 00:42:21,315
Uh, currently with superannuation funds,
you don't need a letter of administration

702
00:42:21,315 --> 00:42:24,435
or a probate to in order to access super.

703
00:42:24,870 --> 00:42:28,170
The person just nominates
someone when they set up their

704
00:42:28,170 --> 00:42:31,890
superannuation account that they
will get what's contained within it.

705
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,560
And I think it would be pretty
straightforward for banks to have a

706
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:39,509
similar situation where someone nominates
the person and then all that's required

707
00:42:39,509 --> 00:42:43,200
is the death of certificate and evidence
of the person whom they're requiring.

708
00:42:43,529 --> 00:42:47,940
Now obviously that would change for
certain amounts over a certain threshold.

709
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:53,940
I would've thought that anything close
to or plus 70 to a hundred thousand

710
00:42:53,940 --> 00:42:58,590
dollars of value would be something that
would require a letter of administration.

711
00:42:58,620 --> 00:43:02,430
'cause it really is about the value
of what's contained within it is

712
00:43:02,430 --> 00:43:03,630
how the court kind of looks at it.

713
00:43:04,170 --> 00:43:06,300
So as I said, it is very complicated.

714
00:43:06,570 --> 00:43:10,380
Shares as well is another one that's
an absolute nightmare in terms of

715
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:15,240
distributing or getting shares through
the As SX or elsewhere in order to dispose

716
00:43:15,240 --> 00:43:20,670
of the shares and distribute the shares
because they're financial, because of the,

717
00:43:20,970 --> 00:43:24,180
the nature of them as being a kind of own.

718
00:43:24,690 --> 00:43:31,860
Property, but different from personal
property and different from real property.

719
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:36,720
It's private property, classical
sense of the term, and that you're

720
00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:37,980
owning a chunk of a company.

721
00:43:38,220 --> 00:43:40,110
They're very difficult
to deal with as well.

722
00:43:40,170 --> 00:43:45,330
You know, in order, I think in order to
dispose of one share, you require letters

723
00:43:45,330 --> 00:43:47,370
of administrations in some circumstances.

724
00:43:47,370 --> 00:43:51,569
So it is, shares are another one that's
really, really difficult to deal with

725
00:43:52,230 --> 00:43:57,150
and to determine what should happen
with in relation to the estate planning.

726
00:43:57,150 --> 00:44:01,710
So those things, what we've talked
about goes back to what we're talking

727
00:44:01,710 --> 00:44:05,549
about in terms of what people should
think about when they're doing their

728
00:44:05,549 --> 00:44:13,799
will, is how are my things owned and
what institutions are they held by?

729
00:44:14,430 --> 00:44:21,029
And do my executor and or
beneficiaries know about these things?

730
00:44:21,495 --> 00:44:22,305
A lot of ways do they even

731
00:44:22,305 --> 00:44:26,100
know that they're actually nominated
a beneficiary as beneficiary executive

732
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:28,575
or executor and what that role entails.

733
00:44:28,814 --> 00:44:28,875
Yeah.

734
00:44:28,935 --> 00:44:33,524
You know, and I think, I think that'd
be really a great for you to, because

735
00:44:33,585 --> 00:44:38,774
I know perhaps people may be unfamiliar
with, with just what the requirements

736
00:44:38,774 --> 00:44:41,745
are in relation to your death.

737
00:44:41,745 --> 00:44:44,984
We've talked about wills and the, and we,
it'd be great if you can go through the

738
00:44:44,984 --> 00:44:50,654
role of executor, but also what if we are
hospitalized or what if we're overseas.

739
00:44:51,015 --> 00:44:54,375
I know that as a family we
have power as of attorney.

740
00:44:54,674 --> 00:44:58,754
And then we also, I've just
gone through the process with my

741
00:44:58,754 --> 00:45:03,555
mum of making sure that she had
an updated advanced care plan.

742
00:45:03,555 --> 00:45:09,044
So these are all from my understanding
documents that we can actually use

743
00:45:09,075 --> 00:45:11,595
to ensure our wishes are followed.

744
00:45:12,075 --> 00:45:17,205
Can you perhaps talk through, and I don't
know my mind in which audio start will,

745
00:45:17,444 --> 00:45:19,365
but if you can talk through perhaps the.

746
00:45:20,130 --> 00:45:24,750
Those three documents and the elements
and the parties associated with them.

747
00:45:25,140 --> 00:45:29,850
Just so everyone is clear who is the
decision maker and why they're in place.

748
00:45:29,940 --> 00:45:30,030
Mm-hmm.

749
00:45:30,270 --> 00:45:31,980
Sometimes that's really
good to understand.

750
00:45:32,610 --> 00:45:32,700
Sure.

751
00:45:32,700 --> 00:45:38,250
They kind of, the, the trinity of estate
planning and I, they're the things that

752
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:43,020
people should consider when the kind of
legal things that they should consider.

753
00:45:43,620 --> 00:45:47,130
There are some periphery things, but I
don't think we need to talk about those.

754
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,700
Mainly those relate to tax and
how you can kind of, they're more

755
00:45:50,700 --> 00:45:54,240
questions for accountants, but in
terms of the three, I'll probably

756
00:45:54,240 --> 00:45:56,730
start with the executive, 'cause
we've just been talking about wills.

757
00:45:57,450 --> 00:46:01,200
Like I said, you can appoint, an executor
should be someone that you trust.

758
00:46:02,010 --> 00:46:04,350
You should have spoken to
'em about being an executor.

759
00:46:05,130 --> 00:46:09,240
You should get them to understand
what is contained within your estate.

760
00:46:09,540 --> 00:46:15,300
They should have a copy of your will that
appoints them as executor and you can

761
00:46:15,300 --> 00:46:17,340
appoint multiple people to fill that role.

762
00:46:17,790 --> 00:46:19,200
But just be mindful.

763
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,550
That you don't want a situation
where you're appointing two people

764
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:25,770
and they never agree on anything.

765
00:46:26,190 --> 00:46:30,570
If you are appointing your two children
and you know that they disagree about

766
00:46:30,570 --> 00:46:36,030
everything and like to argue about
everything, do not appoint them as

767
00:46:36,030 --> 00:46:40,950
co-executors because you're just setting
yourself up for disaster in relation

768
00:46:40,950 --> 00:46:47,340
to them just arguing and potentially
litigating in relation to your will.

769
00:46:47,340 --> 00:46:51,600
So just be mindful when appointing
multiple solicitors, I mean executors,

770
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:56,580
sorry, because there needs to be
agreeance between them for anything to

771
00:46:56,580 --> 00:46:59,880
happen in relation to the distribution
of the property under the will.

772
00:46:59,970 --> 00:47:04,380
So if you are gonna appoint multiple
executives, I generally say it's best

773
00:47:04,380 --> 00:47:08,400
to have at least odd numbers so that
there's like a, they can kind of vote.

774
00:47:08,985 --> 00:47:13,785
But as I said, the generally
one and on alternative is

775
00:47:13,785 --> 00:47:14,985
the best way to go about it.

776
00:47:14,985 --> 00:47:20,145
So for the executive themselves, they
don't have to agree to be the executive.

777
00:47:20,145 --> 00:47:23,295
They can refuse to take up the position
'cause it does involve quite a lot

778
00:47:23,295 --> 00:47:26,535
of work, which is why it's important
to talk to the person who you are

779
00:47:26,535 --> 00:47:29,475
thinking of appointing and checking
that they're willing to do it.

780
00:47:30,345 --> 00:47:35,655
It's also worth appointing someone who,
you know, this comes up quite a bit,

781
00:47:36,165 --> 00:47:40,635
where someone will appoint their brother
who's two years younger than them and

782
00:47:40,635 --> 00:47:44,205
they'll do it in their, maybe in their
mid sixties and the person passes in

783
00:47:44,205 --> 00:47:51,225
their eighties and they've appointed a
78-year-old or even older to be their

784
00:47:51,230 --> 00:47:57,975
executor or the executor's past for,
so it, it's often worth thinking about,

785
00:47:57,975 --> 00:48:05,205
well, is this person going to be fit and
able to be the executor when I've passed?

786
00:48:05,655 --> 00:48:05,865
Okay.

787
00:48:05,865 --> 00:48:07,035
Not now.

788
00:48:08,135 --> 00:48:09,555
If that makes sense, you know,

789
00:48:10,165 --> 00:48:10,515
often.

790
00:48:10,620 --> 00:48:13,890
Yeah, and I'd I'd even say that,
you know, it's not something

791
00:48:13,890 --> 00:48:17,880
that, you know, I, I know that
we actually review our, our legal

792
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,190
documents every year at the tax time.

793
00:48:20,820 --> 00:48:23,400
So we are making sure that it's
actually reflecting our current

794
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,920
views and our current situation.

795
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,430
You know, you very thorough, you
know, not like I know, I know.

796
00:48:29,430 --> 00:48:32,520
Because yeah, there is, I'm sure
you've seen many of those scenarios

797
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,330
where it's something they wrote this
will 30 years ago and it's never been

798
00:48:36,330 --> 00:48:40,020
looked at since, and then everyone
listed is probably dead, you know?

799
00:48:40,050 --> 00:48:40,530
Yeah.

800
00:48:40,530 --> 00:48:44,340
And, and when, when I give these
speeches and talks, I often say,

801
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:49,290
I don't say to people every year,
even though that would be the best

802
00:48:49,735 --> 00:48:52,075
you, you gotta start somewhere,
but I'm aiming high will.

803
00:48:52,265 --> 00:48:52,555
Yeah.

804
00:48:52,555 --> 00:48:53,640
You're aiming very high.

805
00:48:54,330 --> 00:48:59,670
I say at least every 10 years, a
decade is a good kind of measure

806
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:04,740
of kind of the changes in our lives
and our opinions and the like, but.

807
00:49:05,295 --> 00:49:09,315
I would say that the older one gets
the, generally I would kind of drop

808
00:49:09,315 --> 00:49:13,635
that to five years and then potentially
if you're getting much older every

809
00:49:13,635 --> 00:49:17,325
year, because things can change pretty
dramatically over a short period of time.

810
00:49:17,565 --> 00:49:22,365
But also just being aware if there is a
big change, both financially or family

811
00:49:22,365 --> 00:49:27,015
wise, someone passes pulling out the,
your legal documents and having a look

812
00:49:27,765 --> 00:49:31,515
and you know, checking that they're
not the executor and things like that.

813
00:49:31,935 --> 00:49:34,665
So, as I said, executor, the
main thing of the takeaway with

814
00:49:34,665 --> 00:49:36,405
that is an appointing executor.

815
00:49:36,405 --> 00:49:39,765
It should be someone that you trust and
someone that you've communicated with

816
00:49:39,765 --> 00:49:41,895
about your wishes and about your estate.

817
00:49:42,490 --> 00:49:42,780
Okay.

818
00:49:43,215 --> 00:49:46,095
So then onto powers of attorney.

819
00:49:46,875 --> 00:49:52,785
Powers of attorney is a very big subject
all on, on its own, but at its core, the

820
00:49:52,785 --> 00:49:56,685
enduring power of attorney, which is the
most common one that people deal with

821
00:49:56,955 --> 00:50:00,105
because as I said, powers of attorney
are quite complex and there's a myriad

822
00:50:00,105 --> 00:50:04,275
of types is the, if I lose capacity.

823
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:08,700
The person that I've appointed as the
power of attorney can start making

824
00:50:08,700 --> 00:50:13,470
certain decisions as detailed in that
power of attorney in relation to me.

825
00:50:13,770 --> 00:50:17,610
Now, that could be lifestyle
decisions, it could be legal

826
00:50:17,610 --> 00:50:20,400
decisions, it could be financial
decisions, or it could be all three.

827
00:50:21,300 --> 00:50:27,870
And essentially it empowers the
person to one, engage act as our agent

828
00:50:28,380 --> 00:50:33,870
in relation to entering into legal
contracts, things like that, or making

829
00:50:33,870 --> 00:50:38,310
decisions about our lifestyle, where
we live, or those kind of things.

830
00:50:38,310 --> 00:50:43,680
So as people probably guess,
it's a very powerful document.

831
00:50:44,460 --> 00:50:50,580
It empowers someone to really make big
decisions and potentially make very

832
00:50:50,580 --> 00:50:52,890
life-changing decisions on our behalf.

833
00:50:53,790 --> 00:50:57,330
So perhaps out of all of the, the
documents we're gonna talk about

834
00:50:57,390 --> 00:51:00,030
except for advanced care directive,
but that's slightly different,

835
00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:02,160
is one of the most powerful ones.

836
00:51:02,970 --> 00:51:08,009
Should be done with the most care in
terms of who we appoint as our power of

837
00:51:08,009 --> 00:51:13,709
attorney because the issue with the power
of attorney is that it comes, an enduring

838
00:51:13,709 --> 00:51:18,899
power of attorney comes into force when
we lose the capacity to make decisions.

839
00:51:19,589 --> 00:51:24,870
That's why the trust has to be there
because I am no longer going to be

840
00:51:24,870 --> 00:51:29,910
in a position to question directly
the decisions you are making in terms

841
00:51:29,910 --> 00:51:33,689
of in accord, no longer gonna be
able to enter into contracts 'cause

842
00:51:33,689 --> 00:51:35,040
I no longer have the capacity to.

843
00:51:36,299 --> 00:51:36,629
Okay.

844
00:51:37,049 --> 00:51:43,049
So it really is a very powerful thing and
should be done, not entered into lightly.

845
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,250
And you should really take the
time to discuss with the power of

846
00:51:47,250 --> 00:51:49,589
attorney about what your wishes are.

847
00:51:50,279 --> 00:51:53,040
As I said, power of attorney is
different from advanced care directive

848
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:57,660
and when I get to the advanced care
directive, you might see it might

849
00:51:57,660 --> 00:52:01,770
show some of the, the issues with
the current power of attorney system.

850
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:04,049
It's kinda a lack of guardrails.

851
00:52:04,470 --> 00:52:06,540
It's a very archaic system.

852
00:52:06,540 --> 00:52:10,230
This is one of those ones that goes
back hundreds of years and a lot of

853
00:52:10,230 --> 00:52:13,740
the kind of concepts and things don't
really marry up with the current

854
00:52:13,799 --> 00:52:19,049
financial, practical, and medical
understandings of things like capacity.

855
00:52:19,529 --> 00:52:23,759
The amount of work that's involved
in having a power of attorney.

856
00:52:24,150 --> 00:52:28,170
I think it's an area that we'll
probably likely to see some reform

857
00:52:28,170 --> 00:52:29,850
in the not too distant future.

858
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,180
But as I said, so power of
attorney, really powerful document.

859
00:52:33,240 --> 00:52:34,020
Take your time.

860
00:52:34,380 --> 00:52:36,690
They're a simple document to draft.

861
00:52:37,140 --> 00:52:39,060
You can get a solicitor,
draft them for you.

862
00:52:39,215 --> 00:52:42,660
They are simple document to draft,
but they're very powerful documents,

863
00:52:42,660 --> 00:52:44,759
so they should be dealt with care.

864
00:52:45,090 --> 00:52:49,350
And if you are acting as a power of
attorney, there's a lot of duties and

865
00:52:49,350 --> 00:52:53,730
responsibilities that fall upon you
that also should be taken very seriously

866
00:52:53,730 --> 00:52:57,990
because breaches of those duties currently
can come with terms of imprisonment.

867
00:52:58,530 --> 00:53:00,360
If there's fraudulent behavior going on.

868
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:04,230
So, as I said, powers of attorney,
very powerful, very important document

869
00:53:04,650 --> 00:53:06,480
should be taken incredibly seriously.

870
00:53:06,750 --> 00:53:12,480
And as I said, people should take the
time to discuss it, be careful, as I

871
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:16,950
said, engage and make an informed decision
in relation to a power of attorney.

872
00:53:17,820 --> 00:53:19,470
So that's, any questions about that?

873
00:53:20,490 --> 00:53:24,840
Well, just, just on that, will, I
know that because powers of attorney

874
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,950
really come in to effect when it
can be really, really stressful.

875
00:53:29,340 --> 00:53:29,730
Exactly.

876
00:53:30,030 --> 00:53:34,650
'cause it's generally associated with
a critical incident or an illness or

877
00:53:34,650 --> 00:53:36,330
an accident, something along that line.

878
00:53:36,330 --> 00:53:36,331
Mm-hmm.

879
00:53:36,420 --> 00:53:36,510
Mm-hmm.

880
00:53:36,780 --> 00:53:43,110
So what we did, when my mom updated
her power of attorney, we went and

881
00:53:43,110 --> 00:53:48,120
visited the old school in, in regional
Gippsland, but we went and visited

882
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:53,280
the bank manager at the bank and we
actually registered the power of attorney

883
00:53:53,580 --> 00:53:55,260
with the bank because that takes.

884
00:53:55,904 --> 00:53:58,455
Let me tell your people weeks Yeah.

885
00:53:58,455 --> 00:53:59,505
To get approved.

886
00:53:59,685 --> 00:53:59,865
Yep.

887
00:54:00,285 --> 00:54:02,924
And actually go through all the
checkpoints to make sure that

888
00:54:02,924 --> 00:54:07,545
they're comfortable with making
sure that should anything happen,

889
00:54:07,785 --> 00:54:09,075
well something will happen.

890
00:54:09,075 --> 00:54:09,825
We're all gonna die.

891
00:54:09,855 --> 00:54:11,235
Let's not kid ourselves.

892
00:54:11,235 --> 00:54:16,785
But should that Power Attorney need
to take effect that, you know, it's,

893
00:54:16,785 --> 00:54:19,515
it's already there and I can walk
in and it's gonna be a lot less

894
00:54:19,515 --> 00:54:20,685
delay than what there would be.

895
00:54:20,685 --> 00:54:21,015
Absolutely.

896
00:54:21,134 --> 00:54:22,335
That's really good advice.

897
00:54:22,335 --> 00:54:24,165
I mean, it's something that
I advise people all the time.

898
00:54:24,165 --> 00:54:27,944
The first thing you should do after
drafting the power of attorney is

899
00:54:27,944 --> 00:54:31,634
distribute it to all the institutions
in which you gauge with regularly, so

900
00:54:31,634 --> 00:54:36,045
that you're not in a position where the
person's kind of walking the bank in order

901
00:54:36,045 --> 00:54:38,745
to get a withdrawal of much needed funds.

902
00:54:39,405 --> 00:54:42,135
Thinking that all I need is the
paperwork and the bank saying,

903
00:54:42,135 --> 00:54:43,545
well, no, we need to process this.

904
00:54:43,545 --> 00:54:47,235
This takes a certain amount of time, but
obviously that it takes a lot of time

905
00:54:47,235 --> 00:54:51,675
because mm-hmm the bank doesn't want
to distribute funds to someone ordering

906
00:54:51,675 --> 00:54:53,655
to be a power of attorney who is not.

907
00:54:54,135 --> 00:54:56,415
And so, as I said,
that's very good advice.

908
00:54:56,685 --> 00:54:58,725
But as I said, power of
attorney, I suspect we're

909
00:54:58,725 --> 00:55:00,315
going to, that's my prediction.

910
00:55:00,615 --> 00:55:03,645
I've been wrong about these things
before, but my prediction is that we'll

911
00:55:03,645 --> 00:55:09,795
see, I think as a, the advanced care
directive being a model that we might

912
00:55:09,795 --> 00:55:13,425
see changes in relation to our powers
of attorney function, particularly

913
00:55:13,425 --> 00:55:18,285
in Victoria, if the government's
in a reforming mood in this area.

914
00:55:18,555 --> 00:55:23,025
But with potential public support and
community engagement in the issue,

915
00:55:23,355 --> 00:55:26,355
I think we might see some changes
in relation to power as of attorney

916
00:55:26,535 --> 00:55:30,945
and how they work, which leads
nicely to advanced care directives.

917
00:55:30,945 --> 00:55:33,825
So Advanced care directives used to be.

918
00:55:34,290 --> 00:55:37,200
Called medical powers of
attorney, which is why there's

919
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:38,669
a, a correlation between them.

920
00:55:38,790 --> 00:55:42,509
But a lot of the issues we see with powers
of attorneys were even exacerbated in

921
00:55:42,509 --> 00:55:44,370
relation to medical powers of attorney.

922
00:55:44,819 --> 00:55:47,460
'cause previously a medical power
of attorney allowed the person to

923
00:55:47,460 --> 00:55:51,270
make medical decisions in relation
to someone who had lost capacity.

924
00:55:52,589 --> 00:55:56,490
Now back in this was spearheaded by a
member of Victorian Parliament who went

925
00:55:56,490 --> 00:56:00,180
through a very difficult experience
in relation to, I'm not the member's

926
00:56:00,180 --> 00:56:05,160
name, but she went through a very
difficult experience with her own parent

927
00:56:05,549 --> 00:56:09,600
in relation to dealing with medical
powers of attorney and the conflict and

928
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:14,460
confusion that it would cause in relation
to managing their parents' health.

929
00:56:14,879 --> 00:56:20,850
And so kind of led this, the effort
to reform in this space in Victoria.

930
00:56:21,359 --> 00:56:25,770
Now this is Victoria specific, I think
I haven't checked recently, but I

931
00:56:25,770 --> 00:56:29,430
think there's a lot of changes that are
mimicking much of I. The success we've

932
00:56:29,430 --> 00:56:34,049
had in Victoria, but Victoria was kind of
a leader in this space, and as I said, so

933
00:56:34,049 --> 00:56:38,640
the advanced care directive is different
from a medical power of attorney, as

934
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:43,410
we've had a lot more safeguards and a
lot more, in some ways is a lot more

935
00:56:43,500 --> 00:56:49,080
intricate and more fit for purpose
in relation to the current way that

936
00:56:49,649 --> 00:56:53,339
both medicine is practiced and array,
these kind of decisions should be made.

937
00:56:54,029 --> 00:56:58,649
The key elements of an advanced care
directive is one, it does remove a lot of

938
00:56:58,649 --> 00:57:00,660
the lawyers being involved, to be honest.

939
00:57:00,990 --> 00:57:07,200
Most hospitals, doctors, age care
facilities there will facilitate

940
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:09,569
and assist you with drafting
an advanced care directive.

941
00:57:10,470 --> 00:57:13,799
And one of the reasons for that is
the advanced care directive allows

942
00:57:13,799 --> 00:57:20,430
you, as the name suggests, to direct
what kind of treatment you want and

943
00:57:20,430 --> 00:57:21,810
what kind of treatment you don't want.

944
00:57:22,710 --> 00:57:27,480
Both in the form of direct directives
in relation to X type of treatment,

945
00:57:27,839 --> 00:57:33,540
but also in the provision of a value
statement that allows you to, if you've

946
00:57:33,540 --> 00:57:36,509
got religious, philosophical, or other
kind of values that you wish to be

947
00:57:36,509 --> 00:57:38,790
expressed in relation to your treatment.

948
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:43,650
And in some ways this connects
with the assisted dying legislation

949
00:57:43,650 --> 00:57:45,210
as well, which I won't go into.

950
00:57:45,210 --> 00:57:49,109
That's very, again, another broad
topic, but as I said, there is some

951
00:57:49,109 --> 00:57:56,130
connection there, allows you to dictate
in almost all circumstances what

952
00:57:56,130 --> 00:57:58,020
kind of treatment you are gonna have.

953
00:57:58,710 --> 00:58:02,580
Now that's different from the previous
medical powers of attorney, whereas

954
00:58:02,580 --> 00:58:06,630
purely within the discretion of your
power of attorney, medical power of

955
00:58:06,630 --> 00:58:08,609
attorney, about what kind of treatment.

956
00:58:09,029 --> 00:58:13,080
So it didn't matter if another family
member said they were clear that they

957
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:18,360
never wanted X, Y, and z. Of treatment,
but the medical power of attorney says no.

958
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,580
That's what I believe
is in the best interest.

959
00:58:21,090 --> 00:58:26,670
And so currently now the advanced care
directive allows you to direct what

960
00:58:26,670 --> 00:58:30,270
the medical treatment decision maker is
going to do, and they're bound by those

961
00:58:30,270 --> 00:58:32,640
directions in almost all circumstances.

962
00:58:33,750 --> 00:58:39,870
That's why you need the advice of a
medical practitioner often to make those

963
00:58:39,870 --> 00:58:43,410
directives because a lawyer doesn't
know, lawyers like to think they know

964
00:58:43,410 --> 00:58:47,220
everything about everything, but we very
rarely step into the realm of medicine.

965
00:58:47,580 --> 00:58:50,520
And so we're not in a position to
advise you about what treatment is

966
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:56,460
appropriate and what treatments you can
expect or could expect to have performed

967
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:58,290
in if you have a certain condition.

968
00:58:58,830 --> 00:59:01,350
So as I said that, that's
the kind of difference.

969
00:59:01,710 --> 00:59:03,750
It also has a lot more
safeguards attached.

970
00:59:04,350 --> 00:59:07,440
And Will, can I ask if you, if someone
has a medical power of attorney

971
00:59:07,770 --> 00:59:09,510
and an advanced care directive,

972
00:59:10,110 --> 00:59:10,950
what happens then?

973
00:59:11,550 --> 00:59:14,130
So, medical power of attorneys are still.

974
00:59:14,505 --> 00:59:14,895
Valid.

975
00:59:14,895 --> 00:59:14,925
Okay.

976
00:59:15,495 --> 00:59:19,725
But as soon as you make a advance
care directive, it overrides any

977
00:59:19,725 --> 00:59:21,555
prior medical power of attorney.

978
00:59:22,065 --> 00:59:25,155
So if you had a medical power of attorney
in the past, but you make an advance

979
00:59:25,155 --> 00:59:30,585
care directive that overrides the medical
power of attorney, you essentially, any

980
00:59:30,585 --> 00:59:35,715
medical power of attorney made after the
introduction of advanced care directive

981
00:59:36,165 --> 00:59:39,495
is still technically functioning.

982
00:59:39,915 --> 00:59:44,595
It can be used in some sense, but I
would say it's a very unwise thing to do.

983
00:59:44,925 --> 00:59:48,405
It's very much up for challenge,
I would say if you are wanting to

984
00:59:48,405 --> 00:59:51,435
appoint someone to make medical
decisions for you, the advanced

985
00:59:51,435 --> 00:59:52,815
care directive is the way to do it.

986
00:59:53,565 --> 00:59:57,375
And as I said, contact your
local GP or your local hospital.

987
00:59:57,795 --> 01:00:02,325
They're, they're very keen to have people
complete these because they recognize,

988
01:00:02,325 --> 01:00:06,855
and that's one of the areas where,
where a lot of support came for the

989
01:00:06,855 --> 01:00:11,895
changes was the medical profession and
the hospitals and the nurses, because

990
01:00:11,895 --> 01:00:13,605
it means that they're in a position.

991
01:00:14,055 --> 01:00:18,405
A much more clear position in
relation to dealing with often

992
01:00:18,495 --> 01:00:19,995
families who are in distress.

993
01:00:20,355 --> 01:00:24,405
And so they're very keen to have people
create their advanced care directives, put

994
01:00:24,405 --> 01:00:28,665
them upon their medical file so they have
ready access to them if they need them.

995
01:00:28,725 --> 01:00:30,345
So, as I said, it's it.

996
01:00:30,615 --> 01:00:34,605
It is something that I'm not sure if it's
still happening, but I remember down here

997
01:00:34,605 --> 01:00:39,615
in Frankston, they used to have a service
where nurses would provide assistance

998
01:00:39,615 --> 01:00:41,595
with drafting advanced care directives.

999
01:00:41,955 --> 01:00:43,995
The documents are available online.

1000
01:00:44,610 --> 01:00:46,290
Through the state trustees and elsewhere.

1001
01:00:46,620 --> 01:00:46,740
Yeah.

1002
01:00:46,740 --> 01:00:46,860
For

1003
01:00:46,860 --> 01:00:50,490
people to fill them out or take
them to their GP and fill 'em out.

1004
01:00:50,490 --> 01:00:54,480
Often gps will have them, especially if
they deal with a lot of older people.

1005
01:00:54,810 --> 01:00:58,530
And as I said, I'd encourage everybody
to get advance care directive in

1006
01:00:58,530 --> 01:01:03,570
place because it really does, as you
say, often in very difficult to an

1007
01:01:03,570 --> 01:01:09,720
emergency situations, clarifies a lot
of things and allows you to make it

1008
01:01:09,750 --> 01:01:13,980
clear about what kind of treatments
or lack of treatment that you wanna

1009
01:01:13,980 --> 01:01:16,320
receive in certain circumstances.

1010
01:01:16,890 --> 01:01:20,700
The one thing I would also add that
I think is a very good thing that I

1011
01:01:20,700 --> 01:01:24,240
would hope if there's gonna be changes
in relation to powers of attorney

1012
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:28,560
are also included is, and it's often
something that doesn't get talked about

1013
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,740
enough, is the support person role.

1014
01:01:32,700 --> 01:01:35,280
That can be appointed as part
of the advanced care directive.

1015
01:01:36,090 --> 01:01:40,440
It essentially allows someone not to
make decisions, but to support someone in

1016
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:44,460
making their own decisions, which allows
them legal access to medical records,

1017
01:01:44,759 --> 01:01:48,840
to attend certain medical appointments
to discuss their medical issues with

1018
01:01:49,230 --> 01:01:50,640
medical treatment practitioners.

1019
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:56,070
This, I think, is a really good
innovation because one, it recognizes

1020
01:01:56,070 --> 01:01:58,440
that capacity is not an on and off switch.

1021
01:01:58,710 --> 01:02:00,030
Capacity is a spectrum.

1022
01:02:00,030 --> 01:02:02,280
Again, it fluctuates changes.

1023
01:02:02,670 --> 01:02:06,540
You can have a situation where someone
is very cogent and therefore is able

1024
01:02:06,540 --> 01:02:10,980
to make kind of engage very well,
but sometimes they have bad days.

1025
01:02:11,220 --> 01:02:14,730
The support person is able to support
them for as long as possible in making

1026
01:02:14,730 --> 01:02:19,710
their own decisions, and rather than
just as soon as someone is determined

1027
01:02:19,710 --> 01:02:24,600
as not having capacity, or it's a
question of their capacity, that they're

1028
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:26,400
no longer engaged in the process.

1029
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:29,790
It allows for people to support
people to make their own decisions.

1030
01:02:30,060 --> 01:02:36,390
But also have the legal right to access
things like medical records or to overcome

1031
01:02:36,390 --> 01:02:40,440
the kind of privacy requirements of
engaging with medical practitioners.

1032
01:02:41,250 --> 01:02:42,090
Those things.

1033
01:02:42,420 --> 01:02:45,960
I think it would be very useful to see
that in relation to hours of attorney

1034
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:49,805
more generally, so that people support
people in making financial decisions.

1035
01:02:49,810 --> 01:02:52,770
So talk to their mortgage
broker, their bank on their

1036
01:02:52,770 --> 01:02:54,750
behalf, those kind of things.

1037
01:02:54,810 --> 01:02:58,380
Engage with solicitors and support
'em, engaging with solicitors or

1038
01:02:58,380 --> 01:02:59,820
commanders or whatever it might be.

1039
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:04,325
And so that similarly, how a
support person can engage with our

1040
01:03:04,330 --> 01:03:07,350
medical practitioners in supporting
someone making their own decisions.

1041
01:03:08,460 --> 01:03:10,950
Because it really is challenging
to navigate all of this.

1042
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:14,549
Uh, you know, when I went through
it, you know, my father used

1043
01:03:14,549 --> 01:03:18,180
to work in the courts, so I've
always had a will, you know?

1044
01:03:18,185 --> 01:03:18,375
Mm-hmm.

1045
01:03:18,455 --> 01:03:23,549
So for me, I had a pretty high level
of literacy when it comes to both my

1046
01:03:23,549 --> 01:03:25,799
own health and also the legal system.

1047
01:03:26,310 --> 01:03:28,920
But I found it really
challenging to navigate.

1048
01:03:29,250 --> 01:03:29,549
It's very, yes.

1049
01:03:30,240 --> 01:03:30,420
Yep.

1050
01:03:30,509 --> 01:03:34,470
So to be able to have a support person
and, and the fact that we are not taught

1051
01:03:34,470 --> 01:03:38,490
it at school just does my head in, you
know, like, this is something we all

1052
01:03:38,490 --> 01:03:44,220
need to be aware of because it, it comes
back to knowing our rights and how we can

1053
01:03:44,220 --> 01:03:46,589
actually make sure that we're protected.

1054
01:03:47,310 --> 01:03:47,640
Yes.

1055
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:52,950
The, I would say that taking the time
to go through the process of developing

1056
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:57,420
a plan in relation to these three
kind of pillars of estate planning.

1057
01:03:58,154 --> 01:04:02,444
Is actually a means by which you can
protect your, to kind of go back to what

1058
01:04:02,444 --> 01:04:06,884
we began this discussion in relation
to elder abuse, the process of going

1059
01:04:06,884 --> 01:04:13,785
through and engaging with doctors,
lawyers, community members, discussing

1060
01:04:13,785 --> 01:04:17,910
these issues with people in your
community, going through the planning

1061
01:04:17,910 --> 01:04:23,805
process, it's actually a really good
means to protect yourself from being

1062
01:04:23,835 --> 01:04:29,295
controlled or coerced because you can
kind of point to those documents and

1063
01:04:29,295 --> 01:04:31,634
say, well, that's, that's all sorted.

1064
01:04:32,085 --> 01:04:33,645
You know, I don't need to do that.

1065
01:04:33,705 --> 01:04:39,015
And also having people aware of the
decisions that you've made means

1066
01:04:39,015 --> 01:04:42,225
that they're not gonna be kind
of, they're gonna be aware that

1067
01:04:42,225 --> 01:04:43,845
if there's any traumatic changes.

1068
01:04:44,235 --> 01:04:46,605
In relation to your situation.

1069
01:04:46,605 --> 01:04:51,975
So if someone starts coming in and
declaring that you are doing X, Y, and

1070
01:04:51,975 --> 01:04:56,265
Z, but you know that they're not the
power of attorney, or they're not the

1071
01:04:56,265 --> 01:05:00,645
executor, or they're not, they shouldn't
be involved in this, then that's

1072
01:05:00,705 --> 01:05:02,895
puts in, it raises those red flags.

1073
01:05:02,895 --> 01:05:06,795
So, as I said, this process I
would encourage everybody to

1074
01:05:06,795 --> 01:05:09,105
do at a relatively young age.

1075
01:05:09,165 --> 01:05:13,305
You know, really this is something that
people should be, as you say, taught

1076
01:05:13,305 --> 01:05:18,345
from a relatively young age as part
of the kind of things that everyone

1077
01:05:18,345 --> 01:05:24,165
should potentially do, and especially
once they reach a certain age or have a

1078
01:05:24,165 --> 01:05:26,295
certain degree of property in particular.

1079
01:05:26,685 --> 01:05:30,165
But in particular with the advanced care
directive, it's really something that I

1080
01:05:30,165 --> 01:05:36,345
think, you know, bit like when you visit
a new gp, you've gotta fill out like a

1081
01:05:36,345 --> 01:05:39,225
background medical information sheet.

1082
01:05:39,960 --> 01:05:44,280
Part of that process I would
suggest is that there's a suggestion

1083
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:48,600
that you create an advance care
directive whenever you engage, and

1084
01:05:48,660 --> 01:05:51,570
potentially a similar, when engaging.

1085
01:05:51,810 --> 01:05:55,770
If the situation in relation to powers
of attorney were a little less fraught,

1086
01:05:56,310 --> 01:06:00,060
then you could have a similar situation
with powers of fraternity and solicitors.

1087
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:04,800
So, as I said, in a lot of ways the,
that's the kind of three pillars, and they

1088
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:10,920
are very important if you want to make a
clear plan and protect yourself and your

1089
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:15,445
family in relation to when you become,
get closer to the end of your life.

1090
01:06:16,334 --> 01:06:21,825
And in relation to the advance care
directive, I was fortunate enough to

1091
01:06:21,825 --> 01:06:25,064
attend a symposium last year in Adelaide.

1092
01:06:25,125 --> 01:06:29,325
It was run by Advanced Care Planning
Australia, and we have links to

1093
01:06:29,325 --> 01:06:31,995
them on the website and we'll
include them in the show notes.

1094
01:06:32,294 --> 01:06:35,595
They run regular workshops
throughout the year in various

1095
01:06:35,595 --> 01:06:37,095
locations across Australia.

1096
01:06:37,334 --> 01:06:41,325
Also palliative care, whether
it be Australia or your

1097
01:06:41,354 --> 01:06:43,785
local state organization.

1098
01:06:43,785 --> 01:06:48,495
They also run programs in advanced
care planning on a regular basis.

1099
01:06:48,495 --> 01:06:51,615
So we'll definitely include
that because I know.

1100
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:56,720
That the detail that you go into
is really important, both from, you

1101
01:06:56,720 --> 01:07:00,320
know, a daughter who's had her mother
go through the process, through my

1102
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:02,570
own experience with my car accident.

1103
01:07:02,810 --> 01:07:06,560
And then also my best friend
is an emergency doctor, and

1104
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:09,260
so she, she sees, uh mm-hmm.

1105
01:07:09,260 --> 01:07:14,270
The need and, and how important those
forms are when something bad does happen

1106
01:07:14,270 --> 01:07:16,730
and you end up in an emergency department.

1107
01:07:16,790 --> 01:07:17,330
Exactly.

1108
01:07:17,570 --> 01:07:21,350
So, yeah, they've, they're very,
very important documents to do.

1109
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:25,190
Is there anything else that you
think that we should talk about

1110
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:30,080
in relation to protecting your
rights and how you can do that?

1111
01:07:30,620 --> 01:07:35,540
Maybe the one area that we haven't touched
on Will is perhaps the importance of

1112
01:07:35,540 --> 01:07:37,700
these documents in relation to business.

1113
01:07:37,700 --> 01:07:41,480
And because I just always feel
that that's such a, an added

1114
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:43,490
layer on top of things as well.

1115
01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:43,610
Mm-hmm.

1116
01:07:43,616 --> 01:07:45,710
Because you have a, a larger duty of care.

1117
01:07:46,070 --> 01:07:49,460
So it really amplifies the importance
of these documents, doesn't it?

1118
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:53,850
Well, this is where we get really into the
weeds of things in relation to, we don't,

1119
01:07:53,850 --> 01:07:54,899
let's not get too weedy.

1120
01:07:55,259 --> 01:07:59,790
We won't get too weedy in relation to
the ownership of businesses, especially

1121
01:07:59,790 --> 01:08:02,160
when we are talking private businesses.

1122
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:05,879
So private corporations, not public
ones, public ones, we'll leave that.

1123
01:08:05,879 --> 01:08:06,959
That's very weedy.

1124
01:08:07,259 --> 01:08:08,279
Getting into the jungle.

1125
01:08:08,279 --> 01:08:10,470
That's getting the jungle
if we're going there.

1126
01:08:10,980 --> 01:08:15,149
But in terms of private companies and
businesses, it is very complicated.

1127
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:20,639
And I would encourage, I would
often encourage people to try

1128
01:08:20,639 --> 01:08:24,269
and manage the transition.

1129
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:30,149
A transition or a, a plan in relation to
transition in relation to the ownership

1130
01:08:30,149 --> 01:08:34,109
of their business and the selling of their
business well before they're in a position

1131
01:08:34,469 --> 01:08:39,689
where it's gotta be dealt with via a
will or dealt with via power of attorney.

1132
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:45,120
Now, that's not always
possible, but kind of planning.

1133
01:08:45,585 --> 01:08:50,745
The next steps in relation to a business
is part of managing a business Well,

1134
01:08:51,165 --> 01:08:56,235
and they're absolutely, you know, can
be really difficult, especially if

1135
01:08:56,235 --> 01:09:00,705
a family member who's an executive's
gotta step in to a business they have

1136
01:09:00,705 --> 01:09:07,095
no idea about and try and manage either
the sale or the continued running of,

1137
01:09:07,695 --> 01:09:11,085
or family members being bequeathed
the business they have no idea about.

1138
01:09:11,565 --> 01:09:15,285
And so it can be really difficult,
you know, because there's so many

1139
01:09:15,285 --> 01:09:19,185
different moving parts in relation
to business suppliers, employees,

1140
01:09:19,605 --> 01:09:21,195
um, all those different things.

1141
01:09:21,495 --> 01:09:23,100
Debts, liabilities, wages,

1142
01:09:23,595 --> 01:09:26,475
wages, still needing to
be paid on a weekly basis.

1143
01:09:26,475 --> 01:09:26,895
Exactly.

1144
01:09:26,895 --> 01:09:27,100
You know,

1145
01:09:27,320 --> 01:09:27,980
all these things.

1146
01:09:28,250 --> 01:09:28,540
Yeah.

1147
01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:33,525
So that's why I say, if at all
possible, for anybody who does

1148
01:09:33,525 --> 01:09:35,025
own a business or runs a business.

1149
01:09:35,355 --> 01:09:40,395
Have those, it's got a name where
you kind of have a plan for the

1150
01:09:40,395 --> 01:09:44,835
eventuality that you will no longer
be available to succession plans.

1151
01:09:44,835 --> 01:09:44,985
I think

1152
01:09:45,795 --> 01:09:47,625
there's a couple of, yeah, so there's
a couple of terms that they can use.

1153
01:09:47,625 --> 01:09:47,685
Yeah.

1154
01:09:47,685 --> 01:09:53,145
When I used to work at the Royal
Botanic Gardens, they referred to it

1155
01:09:53,235 --> 01:09:57,735
like if any incident happened, like
so if the power went out or you know,

1156
01:09:57,945 --> 01:10:01,515
it was just part of the business
continuity plan, so it would, yep.

1157
01:10:01,515 --> 01:10:01,695
Business

1158
01:10:01,695 --> 01:10:02,385
continuity,

1159
01:10:02,745 --> 01:10:05,595
succession planning, fall under
succession planning if it has

1160
01:10:05,595 --> 01:10:07,335
to actually transition hands.

1161
01:10:07,340 --> 01:10:07,920
Yeah, exactly.

1162
01:10:08,020 --> 01:10:12,765
Um, yeah, and Business Victoria and
also I think Small Business Australia

1163
01:10:12,765 --> 01:10:15,825
and, and all of those sort of
government business organizations and

1164
01:10:15,825 --> 01:10:16,960
we website resources for that website.

1165
01:10:16,965 --> 01:10:18,645
Really good templates for it too.

1166
01:10:18,795 --> 01:10:19,035
Yeah.

1167
01:10:19,035 --> 01:10:19,036
Yeah.

1168
01:10:19,275 --> 01:10:23,985
And so that's something that people should
take the time when doing their general

1169
01:10:23,985 --> 01:10:26,055
planning in relation to their business.

1170
01:10:26,325 --> 01:10:27,315
They should include.

1171
01:10:27,705 --> 01:10:32,955
Planning in relation to successional
continuity planning and the idea being

1172
01:10:32,955 --> 01:10:38,175
that if something were to happen that the
business is able to continue because it is

1173
01:10:38,175 --> 01:10:43,724
a separate entity on the person that owns
it and it will as separate legal entity.

1174
01:10:43,724 --> 01:10:48,195
It will continue, it will continue to have
its liabilities and responsibilities, but

1175
01:10:48,224 --> 01:10:53,625
as I said, so in order for the business
not to fail upon someone's passing or

1176
01:10:53,625 --> 01:10:57,375
some kind of accident where they lose
capacity, it is really important to

1177
01:10:57,375 --> 01:11:01,485
have those continuity plans in place
and those succession plans in place.

1178
01:11:02,415 --> 01:11:06,134
Perhaps the last thing I'll say in terms
of will making an estate planning estate,

1179
01:11:06,554 --> 01:11:08,445
so I don't, I don't forget to include it.

1180
01:11:08,894 --> 01:11:13,634
I mentioned earlier about the perspective
that I bring in relation to having

1181
01:11:13,634 --> 01:11:18,795
a family violence background and the
kind of, I guess a risk mitigation and

1182
01:11:18,795 --> 01:11:23,175
conflict management background is that.

1183
01:11:23,639 --> 01:11:27,809
You should always turn your mind to
beyond a lot of these technical questions,

1184
01:11:28,590 --> 01:11:32,759
and this goes broadly across all three
of those pillars and even included in

1185
01:11:32,759 --> 01:11:39,300
business, is to turn your mind to risk
mitigation and conflict mitigation

1186
01:11:39,990 --> 01:11:43,230
when developing your estate planning.

1187
01:11:43,830 --> 01:11:44,730
What do I mean by that?

1188
01:11:44,940 --> 01:11:54,809
The amount of families that irrevocably
break apart upon, particularly the

1189
01:11:54,809 --> 01:12:00,780
passing of a parent or a patriarch or
matriarch of a family is significant.

1190
01:12:02,160 --> 01:12:07,620
And so I would say to those patriarchs
and matriarchs and anyone in between

1191
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:17,070
that they take the time to consider the
existing tensions and complex within

1192
01:12:17,070 --> 01:12:22,950
their families or their beneficiaries
when developing their plans.

1193
01:12:23,700 --> 01:12:26,040
It goes back to what I was
mentioning about the executors.

1194
01:12:26,459 --> 01:12:30,959
If you have two executors that hate
each other, can't agree on anything,

1195
01:12:30,990 --> 01:12:35,759
don't appoint them both as executives,
if you know that there's a brewing

1196
01:12:35,759 --> 01:12:40,200
conflict about a particular property,
make it clear to both parties about

1197
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:44,129
what you are wanting to do in relation
to that property and make it clear in

1198
01:12:44,129 --> 01:12:45,959
the will in relation to that property.

1199
01:12:46,410 --> 01:12:50,190
It's impossible to fully prevent
conflict in these circumstances.

1200
01:12:50,490 --> 01:12:54,150
'cause often the conflict is not
necessarily just about the property.

1201
01:12:54,690 --> 01:12:58,769
It's often, you know, wrapped up in
emotional and psychological issues.

1202
01:12:59,309 --> 01:13:05,280
But if you can very easily exacerbate
conflict by poor estate planning,

1203
01:13:05,370 --> 01:13:09,690
that hasn't taken into account these
considerations when you've been

1204
01:13:09,690 --> 01:13:11,580
developing these legal documents.

1205
01:13:12,450 --> 01:13:17,339
So taking the time to both communicate
about and consider the existing

1206
01:13:17,429 --> 01:13:21,179
tensions within your family and the
potential conflicts that could arise.

1207
01:13:21,660 --> 01:13:22,830
Is really important.

1208
01:13:23,010 --> 01:13:27,270
It's not something that people talk about
often in relation to estate planning.

1209
01:13:27,630 --> 01:13:33,660
I think it's a critical thing that
because no one wants their legacy, the

1210
01:13:33,660 --> 01:13:39,780
last thing they leave to their family and
friends to cause significant conflict.

1211
01:13:39,780 --> 01:13:40,665
Well, most people don't.

1212
01:13:40,695 --> 01:13:41,505
Some people do.

1213
01:13:41,575 --> 01:13:45,000
Some people wanna see the world burn,
but as I said, the majority of people

1214
01:13:45,420 --> 01:13:50,970
don't want their legacy to be one of
conflict and would hate to think that

1215
01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:55,500
because they didn't take the time to
consider those things when developing

1216
01:13:55,500 --> 01:14:01,530
their estate plan has led to a fracture
within their family to whom they're

1217
01:14:01,530 --> 01:14:07,140
bequeathing these property in order for
them to benefit from, and the hope being

1218
01:14:07,140 --> 01:14:11,850
that they'll live more financially or
securely or fulfilled lives after that.

1219
01:14:11,910 --> 01:14:12,300
So.

1220
01:14:12,690 --> 01:14:16,110
Taking that time I think is really
important and it's the one thing I,

1221
01:14:16,470 --> 01:14:21,285
if anybody takes away anything from
listening to me lather on for, for

1222
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:27,000
this time is that, that they should
turn their mind to those, those issues,

1223
01:14:27,300 --> 01:14:31,590
not just the kind of technical legal
issues that we've touched on today.

1224
01:14:32,280 --> 01:14:35,700
I think that is a perfect
place for us to finish.

1225
01:14:35,700 --> 01:14:40,980
Will I totally agree with you and I think
that, you know what's become very clear

1226
01:14:40,980 --> 01:14:45,900
as well in the documents are important
to make sure that we get them right

1227
01:14:45,900 --> 01:14:51,300
because they represent us and our wishes
and our values, but it's also having the

1228
01:14:51,300 --> 01:14:55,680
conversations surrounding those documents
that are really, really important.

1229
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:58,950
It goes back to what we're talking
about in relation to community,

1230
01:14:59,490 --> 01:15:03,270
that your community should be aware
of your wishes, even if they don't

1231
01:15:03,270 --> 01:15:04,950
necessarily have a copy of the document.

1232
01:15:04,950 --> 01:15:08,925
So can be uncomfortable, talk
about these things with the

1233
01:15:09,005 --> 01:15:11,160
family and friends and so that.

1234
01:15:12,360 --> 01:15:15,960
Your community's aware of what your
wishes are and they can help support

1235
01:15:16,230 --> 01:15:17,820
making sure that those wishes happen.

1236
01:15:18,660 --> 01:15:20,640
Thank you so much for
being with us today, will

1237
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:21,660
Absolute pleasure.

1238
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:28,020
We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,

1239
01:15:28,350 --> 01:15:30,030
brought to you by Critical Info.

1240
01:15:30,030 --> 01:15:35,100
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1241
01:15:35,100 --> 01:15:37,050
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1242
01:15:37,170 --> 01:15:40,800
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1243
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:42,540
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1244
01:15:42,720 --> 01:15:46,860
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1245
01:15:46,860 --> 01:15:48,600
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1246
01:15:48,900 --> 01:15:50,220
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1247
01:15:50,370 --> 01:15:51,390
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1248
01:15:51,390 --> 01:15:55,290
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1249
01:15:55,290 --> 01:16:01,500
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