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People go, oh, why would you
burn something so beautiful?

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And it's like, well, you
are gonna burn a coffin.

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So why?

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Why actually pull down a tree?

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Why varnish wood?

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Why do all of those kind of things
and put those into the atmosphere when

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you've got something that's invasive
that's killing our needed forests.

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And why wouldn't you just use that?

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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a
podcast encouraging open conversations

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about dying and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death back to
life because while you may not be ready

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to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't be caught dead.

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Acknowledges the lands of the
Kulin Nations and recognizes their

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connection to land, sea, and community.

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We pay our respects to their
elders past, present, and

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emerging, and extend that respect.

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To all Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Today I'm speaking with Zimmi Forest.

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Zimmi is a fiber artist and
environmentalist whose work explores

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the deep connection between nature.

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Life and death through weaving.

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With a background in basketry
and organic materials.

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She creates handwoven pieces including
eco-friendly coffins that honor

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natural cycles and sustainable living.

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Inspired by the textures
and resilience of nature.

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Her art reflects themes of transformation.

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Im permanence and renewal.

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Through her practice, Zimmi invites
people to rethink traditional

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funeral practices and embrace more
meaningful biodegradable alternatives.

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Thanks for being with us today, Zimmi.

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So what inspired you Zimmi To
work with natural materials?

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It happened quite early on.

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It was very much a aha moment when
I was listening to the radio and

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they were talking about all the
pollution and all of the destruction

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that was happening in the world.

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And it, yeah, just impacted on me.

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And so I always looked for ways that I
can have less of an impact and a really

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low carbon footprint on the planet and
use resources in the best possible way,

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and that played out through my life.

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At every stage really like, so
when I would go out in the car, I

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wouldn't go out just for a drive.

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I would always have like that
permaculture way where you have at

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least three things that you've gotta do.

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So when you use a resource, you use
it so that it's spread amongst a

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whole lot of different activities.

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And the food, I would always buy
organic and I really wanted to

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have a career that was the most
sensitive to the planet as possible.

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And have you always worked iwi basketry?

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Tell me about the evolution of your arts
practice and how it's evolved over time.

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Hmm.

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Okay.

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So I was very much into art as a
kid, but my mother was also studying

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art as a mature age student,
and that kind of impacted on me.

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And she brought home all these
beautiful things that she'd make.

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Paint.

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And so that was something that I imagined
and I, I was very textural, very much

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wanting to touch things and I textured
meant a lot to me, so I would make things.

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And it just kind of grew from that
where I'd, I started making birthday

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cards and gifts for people and then
it just kind of grew into basketry.

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And yeah, I do remember having
a moment when I was in early

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teens going to a Steiner.

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Um.

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A school fair.

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A faint.

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A faint, sorry.

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And just seeing a, a display of
baskets and it was like another

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force, fourth dimensional, some other
force just pushed me towards these

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baskets and it was like either I had
to ingest them or they would eat me.

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And so it was like, I didn't really
make sense of it at the time, but

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then when I got into basketry and I
remembered that moment, it was like,

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okay, it was definitely life telling me
that that's what I was gonna be doing.

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And yeah, it's, it's like
I love it as a profession.

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I love it because I'm always either
in nature or working with nature or

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talking about nature, but unfortunately
basketry in Australia is, is not

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very well respected and yeah, so.

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I just had had to live with that for
many years of not making an income

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and also people just going like, why?

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Why would you make a basket?

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Like, why would you do that?

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Thankfully, Instagram and
COVID changed all of that, but

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it's been a long time coming.

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I've been doing it for 30 years and
of that, it's only probably the last

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10 years that people have started
going, oh, that's pretty cool.

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That's great.

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I think it may have been
COVID where people decided,

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oh yeah, I'll create a basket.

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I've got time on my hands.

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And then they appreciated
how damn hard it is, how much

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time goes into it.

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Yeah.

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And what I find though is most
of the baskets that people make

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from material that they purchased.

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Yeah.

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And, and that always saddens me because.

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There's absolutely no reason for
us to use someone else's resources.

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I could literally live in a 100
meter radius of my house and never

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leave and make a basket every day.

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There's so much material.

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There is so many resources that people
can access if they only thought about

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it and had the willingness to do it.

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So tell me, you live on Byron Bay Coast
and in your local 100 meters, what can you

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find that you could make a basket out of?

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One of my favorite, which is an
indigenous fiber, is the what's now

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called the PAB Beam Palm, which in this
area used to be called the Bangalore

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palm, but the indigenous people
have asked us to call it PAB Beam.

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It's an oconto phoenix cunning ana, and it
has three sections of it that can be used.

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It has a panicle, which falls down,
and it looks a bit like a chandelier.

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That's what goes into flour and
seed, so I can use those and then.

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Before that falls down on it is a space.

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A space is a sheath over a flowering body.

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And so that falls off and
that's beautiful to work with.

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And before that even falls out
is you get this sheath, which

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is attached to the leaf stalk.

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And so all three of those are used.

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The indigenous people used the
sheath and that was a water

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carrier or a food carrier.

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And that's an amazing piece of material.

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It's when it's wet, it's like leather.

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It can also look like a cow hide.

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It's absolutely stunning as far as not
the shape of it is a cow hide, but the

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texture and the way that it's colored
it, it looks like it has all these spots

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all over it, if, depending on the weather
that it's been through, and it has all

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the different shades of, and tones of
the brown and brown, gold and white, all

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of those colors, so it's very beautiful.

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It's interesting that when you talk about
the materials that they seem to have

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such diversity in, obviously the state in
which they're in, whether they're fresh or

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whether they're, they're drying out, and
also the fact that you can then actually

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wet them again and it changes their
properties and how you can work with them.

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So it sounds like that there
is a lot to have learn.

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How have you evolved
your practice over time?

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How have you gained your knowledge?

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It.

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It is all experience.

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I have done some basketry glasses.

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When I first started, there weren't
very many basket makers in Australia,

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and of course this was pre-internet,
and so the craft magazines and textile

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fiber forum were places that would
either hold workshops or advertise

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or have articles about practitioners.

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And so I guess I just.

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My main thing, which is the lucky thing,
which unfortunately people who are on

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Instagram don't get these days, is I
develop my own voice because apic Beam,

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Palm actually in, when I was living
in Sydney, that was on the ground and

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I was like, I cannot throw that out.

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That is so beautiful.

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There's got to be
something I can do with it.

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And so it was all play and so I was able
to just play with materials for the first

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couple of years, I reckon I made so much
stuff that was really poorly put together

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or I didn't understand the materials, so
it was all practice, it was all doing.

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Basketry is doing, I can use the
words, I can explain how to do things

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and you know, like you could possibly
catch on, but it's all in the doing.

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So I, I've spent 30 years doing it,
so I, I know things and it's also

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working with the cycles and the
seasons, like the picker beam palm.

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We've had an amazing season of the PAB
be dropping its spades and the panicles

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because we've had heaps of rain.

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But then if we go into drought,
even in the North coast, a drought

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isn't that bad and it's, you
know, could be a couple of months.

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It won't drop anything.

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So you just know thing you,
you just become so familiar.

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And that's the thing with all.

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Makers and doers is they get a feel for
it, they develop a relationship, and it's

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all in the relationship that you have with
the seasons, the nature of it, the actual

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plants that you, you know, when it's
time to pick, you know, and that's the

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indigenous people, they're known for that.

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They just have that ancestral
lineage that they know these things.

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And so, yeah, and that's what
I've developed is a knowing of my

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particular fibers and my, my area.

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And also it's, from my understanding
also the, the tactility of it and, and

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how you use your hands is something that
you really have to learn as well when

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you're dealing with different materials.

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It's not just the materials
themselves, is it?

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That's fine.

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But I take that for granted because it's
been so much part of what I do and I

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guess it's, it's people's background.

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Like if you had a grandmother who knitted
or crocheted or a mother who did those

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kind of things, or even a father who
played with the, whether it was the car

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or the lawnmower or even made things.

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And I've gotta, you know, be careful
because men actually used to make baskets.

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And if you look in European countries,
it's still men making baskets.

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So it's not that men never, in
Australia, people have a prejudice

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against men making baskets.

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It's kind of like below their
standards, but it's always been

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in, in the indigenous culture too.

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Men made certain fish nets and
certain parts of the process.

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But anyway, yeah, just for me,
I've just spent a hands on person.

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I and I, you know, I grew up cooking,
my parents had a restaurant, so

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hands were always part of doing.

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And I guess also I was always
coordinated 'cause I did a lot

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of sport when I was younger, so.

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Yeah, it was just something
that I naturally fell into.

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But I do see that when I'm teaching
that some people aren't so natural

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with it or it's not something
that it's familiar to them.

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And I guess that's something
that I teach so that they get

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through that and I help them.

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But yeah, I think most people
have a certain amount of hand.

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I have coordination.

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Well, you haven't met me.

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Is in one of your classes.

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The thing is, I reckon
I could get you through,

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I have no doubt.

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But the thing that, um, we met each other
at the Sydney Death and Dying Festival

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last year, and your work is just amazing.

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And, and the work that I was
looking at was your, your coffins.

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How did your arts practice
evolve into coffins?

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Was there a particular incident or?

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It's been a few things actually.

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It's also got to do with
the indigenous people.

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Since they have been coming up and being
promoted in the art world and basketry

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is very much something that they do.

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There's been a bit of a transition
stage that we're going through,

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and indigenous people are taking
back a lot of their basketry.

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When I say taking back, not necessarily
taking off us because everyone has

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a lineage in basketry and making,
but yeah, they're reclaiming it.

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And so government organizations are
really employing indigenous people over

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European people for basketry classes.

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So it was all of those
gigs that I used to get.

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Were take like were no
longer available to me.

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And it was perfectly timed at the
stage where I'd just come across.

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I had been invited to start teaching
weekends of foraging and making

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baskets out of the cat store.

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'cause one of our local
land care, oh, sorry.

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She's an organic land care practitioner.

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She had been invited to a property that
didn't want to use poisons on their

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property to get rid of the cat's course.

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So this lady whose name's Nadia,
she recognized that the material

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was actually really useful and we
could turn it into a resource and

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I was basket maker in the area.

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She knew that.

231
00:12:23,250 --> 00:12:26,579
So she called me in and said, Hey, let's,
let's see what we can do with this.

232
00:12:27,660 --> 00:12:29,400
And teach people how to
make baskets out of it.

233
00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,400
And then when I went onto a property
and realized just how pervasive and

234
00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,510
destructive this material was, I
went, okay, this is what I need to do.

235
00:12:36,510 --> 00:12:40,110
I need to work with an invasive
material and I need to step

236
00:12:40,110 --> 00:12:42,000
up into something different.

237
00:12:42,630 --> 00:12:46,785
Because another thing that's kind
of a sideline too is that if I

238
00:12:46,785 --> 00:12:50,310
asked all of your audience how many
baskets they have in their house.

239
00:12:50,940 --> 00:12:53,580
On average 10 baskets in a house.

240
00:12:53,910 --> 00:12:57,330
But if I asked you how many of those
were made by an Australian, if you are

241
00:12:57,330 --> 00:13:00,900
not a basket maker yourself, all of
those would've been imported baskets.

242
00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,310
So if you just think of for yourself,
have you got any baskets in your house and

243
00:13:05,310 --> 00:13:06,780
how many of those were Australian made?

244
00:13:06,900 --> 00:13:08,340
Would you give me an answer?

245
00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:13,110
Well, it's, it's probably the wrong person
to ask, saying I worked at a botanic

246
00:13:13,110 --> 00:13:17,910
Gardens for 13 years and, and I had a
little obsession with the basket weavers

247
00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:23,340
that the friends group were, and so I
have purchased probably a few too many

248
00:13:23,340 --> 00:13:25,645
baskets over the years of various You,

249
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:27,209
you are one of the 1%.

250
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:28,324
Yeah, I am.

251
00:13:28,965 --> 00:13:31,485
And it's people who know
Australian basket makers who have

252
00:13:31,485 --> 00:13:35,625
Australian baskets, but the average
person, it's, it's all imported.

253
00:13:35,625 --> 00:13:39,375
So I knew that I couldn't make baskets
out of this material and hope to sell

254
00:13:39,375 --> 00:13:42,795
them because it's like we just can't
compete with the imported market.

255
00:13:43,215 --> 00:13:47,655
And so it was like, what do
Australians buy that they're prepared

256
00:13:47,655 --> 00:13:49,575
to actually pay real money for?

257
00:13:49,665 --> 00:13:54,255
And coffins was kind of the
direction that I, I felt was the most

258
00:13:54,255 --> 00:13:58,005
appropriate, and that's why I started
doing coffins out of the cat school.

259
00:13:59,099 --> 00:14:00,150
And they're so beautiful.

260
00:14:00,150 --> 00:14:05,939
And just before we go onto the, how you
make a coffin, the cat's claw that you are

261
00:14:05,939 --> 00:14:08,849
describing, that is a, a vine, isn't it?

262
00:14:08,849 --> 00:14:12,240
Quite a weedy vine that
strangles everything, doesn't it?

263
00:14:12,660 --> 00:14:13,589
Yeah, absolutely.

264
00:14:13,589 --> 00:14:14,550
It's invasive.

265
00:14:14,550 --> 00:14:15,540
It's probably.

266
00:14:16,125 --> 00:14:18,465
I think it's on the biosecurity
Act and it's one of the

267
00:14:18,465 --> 00:14:20,985
top three invasive species.

268
00:14:21,015 --> 00:14:23,865
Like they, they have different categories
and I think it's in the third category

269
00:14:23,865 --> 00:14:29,085
or it's the third most destructive
bind in Australia that's up invasive

270
00:14:29,085 --> 00:14:30,615
bin that's coming to Australia.

271
00:14:31,245 --> 00:14:31,485
Yeah,

272
00:14:31,575 --> 00:14:35,625
so I think it's beautiful that
you're actually creating, you know,

273
00:14:35,685 --> 00:14:39,465
the coffins out of an invasive
species that is actually doing

274
00:14:39,465 --> 00:14:41,205
damage to our natural environment.

275
00:14:41,535 --> 00:14:44,085
That's why I kind of
went, okay, that's it.

276
00:14:44,145 --> 00:14:47,955
You know, because a lot of my materials
that I can work with, it's renewable,

277
00:14:48,015 --> 00:14:50,625
but they're not invasive or destructive.

278
00:14:50,955 --> 00:14:52,335
The CAT score is, and it was.

279
00:14:52,365 --> 00:14:54,435
That's like, okay, let's
do something with this.

280
00:14:54,435 --> 00:14:55,725
Let's, let's make mark.

281
00:14:56,444 --> 00:14:57,555
That's why I went that way.

282
00:14:57,675 --> 00:14:58,035
Yeah.

283
00:14:58,545 --> 00:15:03,255
I think it's really beautiful and
it seems to be such a, a fiber that

284
00:15:03,255 --> 00:15:05,565
lends itself to the weaving as well.

285
00:15:05,775 --> 00:15:09,795
So can you talk about the process,
if you don't mind, from sort of start

286
00:15:09,795 --> 00:15:11,625
to finish about how that evolves?

287
00:15:11,625 --> 00:15:15,795
Because I'm assuming there must be a
period of time where you have to collect

288
00:15:15,795 --> 00:15:19,335
and gather before it is, is useful to you.

289
00:15:19,695 --> 00:15:20,085
That's right.

290
00:15:20,175 --> 00:15:20,325
Yep.

291
00:15:20,355 --> 00:15:20,655
Sorry.

292
00:15:20,655 --> 00:15:23,265
If every now and then I'm
doing this, we're in midville.

293
00:15:23,565 --> 00:15:26,265
Like we have Midges like you
wouldn't believe in this area.

294
00:15:26,895 --> 00:15:27,975
Yeah, right.

295
00:15:28,635 --> 00:15:30,675
Yeah, so I'm seeing them fly everywhere.

296
00:15:30,765 --> 00:15:34,755
Okay, so I have, and I'm going
out on Wednesday collecting.

297
00:15:34,755 --> 00:15:38,505
So I have a team of, a minimum of four
people, and we go out for two days

298
00:15:38,505 --> 00:15:40,155
and we collect for eight hours a day.

299
00:15:40,485 --> 00:15:41,805
We're climbing trees.

300
00:15:41,805 --> 00:15:44,296
We're cutting from the
top end to the bottom.

301
00:15:45,310 --> 00:15:46,000
Pulling off.

302
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,589
Now, this particular vine just attaches
itself to the trunk of the tree and it

303
00:15:50,589 --> 00:15:54,310
climbs straight up, which is wonderful
for us as weavers, which is why it

304
00:15:54,310 --> 00:15:57,699
makes such a great weaving material
because it's not this vine that just

305
00:15:57,699 --> 00:15:59,589
goes off in all different directions.

306
00:15:59,589 --> 00:16:00,490
It's straight up.

307
00:16:00,490 --> 00:16:04,870
So it makes it pretty good for weaving,
and as it climbs, it basically.

308
00:16:05,145 --> 00:16:09,675
It can sometimes put a whole like
curtain or a skirt around the trunk of

309
00:16:09,675 --> 00:16:14,025
a tree, and then it climbs up through
the crown of the leaves and it, it

310
00:16:14,025 --> 00:16:15,645
takes over and sits on top of it.

311
00:16:15,824 --> 00:16:16,844
So it takes the light.

312
00:16:17,175 --> 00:16:21,614
And then also what it does is that
that skirt that forms around the trunk,

313
00:16:21,824 --> 00:16:25,214
all of the debris that would normally
fall off the tree and nourish the

314
00:16:25,214 --> 00:16:27,015
ground underneath, falls in between it.

315
00:16:27,020 --> 00:16:29,864
And so it suffocates because
apparently trees can breathe

316
00:16:29,864 --> 00:16:30,915
through their trunk as well.

317
00:16:31,305 --> 00:16:33,015
And so it suffocates the trunk.

318
00:16:33,565 --> 00:16:34,975
Basically kills trees.

319
00:16:35,035 --> 00:16:37,045
It takes a few years to get to that stage.

320
00:16:37,045 --> 00:16:41,095
But if it gets to that stage, you'll
see these monsters in the forest, and

321
00:16:41,095 --> 00:16:45,025
it's the cat's claw has climbed over
these trees, killed them, and all it is

322
00:16:45,025 --> 00:16:47,545
are these limbs like a cartoon monster.

323
00:16:47,815 --> 00:16:51,895
But you're talking anything from
like a meter high to 30 meters

324
00:16:51,895 --> 00:16:55,015
high, so grandmother and grandfather
trees are just being killed.

325
00:16:55,345 --> 00:16:58,405
And then also most of it's
happening in the riparian zone.

326
00:16:58,405 --> 00:17:00,535
So basically also.

327
00:17:00,810 --> 00:17:05,670
Spreads on the water and so it climbs
onto trees closest to the water.

328
00:17:05,670 --> 00:17:09,060
And then when, when those trees die,
then the root system basically isn't

329
00:17:09,089 --> 00:17:12,930
holding the banks of the rivers together,
so it causes a lot of erosion as well.

330
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:18,270
And also the extra weight of the material
if it's flood time, that extra weight of

331
00:17:18,270 --> 00:17:20,609
the water going through this material.

332
00:17:20,890 --> 00:17:22,630
Basically puts trees down as well.

333
00:17:23,020 --> 00:17:26,680
So anyway, we go in there,
we climb and we cut top and

334
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,510
bottom, and then we pull it off.

335
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:33,580
And if we're lucky, all the, um, stems are
kind of next to each other, but sometimes

336
00:17:33,580 --> 00:17:35,620
they entangle and crossover and join.

337
00:17:35,890 --> 00:17:38,230
So, you know, we've gotta
lift and do all these things.

338
00:17:38,230 --> 00:17:41,080
So it's a very, very slow human process.

339
00:17:41,110 --> 00:17:41,680
Yeah.

340
00:17:42,010 --> 00:17:46,015
So it takes, like I said, a minimum
of four of us two days to get enough.

341
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,670
So you can like if looking at
about 50 people hours to get

342
00:17:50,670 --> 00:17:51,690
the material for the coffin.

343
00:17:52,230 --> 00:17:56,280
So then we take that back to
either my studio or storage

344
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,140
shed or like this weekend.

345
00:17:58,140 --> 00:18:02,400
Then I go straight down to a teaching
event and then I sort the materials

346
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,590
so I have it in different piles
for the different thicknesses, for

347
00:18:04,590 --> 00:18:05,790
the different parts of the coffin.

348
00:18:06,420 --> 00:18:09,450
And also some get put aside for baskets.

349
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,040
And then basically off I go.

350
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,970
And then when we get to the class, we
get the students to clean the material.

351
00:18:15,285 --> 00:18:18,735
So the little claws, which I don't
know why they call cats skull, I

352
00:18:18,735 --> 00:18:19,905
think they're more like birds feet.

353
00:18:19,935 --> 00:18:23,595
'cause they're the little, there's three
like this and they small enough that they

354
00:18:23,835 --> 00:18:26,295
all three would fit onto my fingernail.

355
00:18:26,295 --> 00:18:28,245
But you probably get like
six on my fingernail.

356
00:18:28,245 --> 00:18:33,045
They're that small, so they kind of have
this hairiness and a bit of a root system.

357
00:18:33,045 --> 00:18:34,635
It looks like a bit system, but it's not.

358
00:18:34,875 --> 00:18:38,925
And also when you're pulling it off, if
it's coming off a dead tree, especially

359
00:18:38,925 --> 00:18:40,755
dead trees, the bark comes off with it.

360
00:18:40,755 --> 00:18:43,035
So you've got to cut all
of that material off.

361
00:18:43,035 --> 00:18:44,055
So you give it a haircut.

362
00:18:44,595 --> 00:18:48,165
And then, then you basically
just weave away with it.

363
00:18:48,645 --> 00:18:49,035
Wow.

364
00:18:49,035 --> 00:18:51,315
And how, what is the process?

365
00:18:51,315 --> 00:18:52,305
Where do you start?

366
00:18:52,305 --> 00:18:55,365
Do you start, I'm assuming at
the base, like do you weave the

367
00:18:55,365 --> 00:18:58,185
base or, I'd love to be weaving the base.

368
00:18:58,185 --> 00:19:00,915
I think legislation means that
we have to have a solar base.

369
00:19:00,975 --> 00:19:01,365
Um, yeah.

370
00:19:01,365 --> 00:19:01,845
Okay.

371
00:19:02,055 --> 00:19:06,435
Where we can't, in England and Europe,
I believe they can weave their bases.

372
00:19:06,495 --> 00:19:08,745
They don't always have to, but they can.

373
00:19:09,045 --> 00:19:09,720
And there is a bit more work.

374
00:19:10,409 --> 00:19:13,740
You know, and Cat Core isn't the
best material to weave a base with

375
00:19:13,740 --> 00:19:15,419
because it doesn't do sharp corners.

376
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:20,580
So if you weave a base, you've got timber
up bites or Cat core outrights, depending

377
00:19:20,580 --> 00:19:23,310
on what you're gonna use and to go around.

378
00:19:23,820 --> 00:19:26,610
So you'd be going backwards and
forwards like this, and Cat Core

379
00:19:26,610 --> 00:19:30,480
doesn't do a really sharp turn,
whereas Willow will do a sharp turn,

380
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:31,740
which is what they use in Europe.

381
00:19:32,070 --> 00:19:32,640
So it's not the

382
00:19:33,750 --> 00:19:34,980
bases anyway.

383
00:19:35,700 --> 00:19:41,190
And so for a coffin, we'll start at the
base and put in the uprights, and then

384
00:19:41,190 --> 00:19:45,000
we weave our way up, and then we put
in the handles, which is rope handle.

385
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,480
I do a whole layer of rope and
put the handles in that, and then

386
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:53,235
we weave to the top and we turn
it down, and then we weave a lid.

387
00:19:54,315 --> 00:19:54,765
Wow.

388
00:19:54,765 --> 00:19:56,805
And how long does that process take?

389
00:19:56,895 --> 00:19:57,375
Zumi?

390
00:19:57,465 --> 00:19:59,355
It's a good 60 hours.

391
00:19:59,445 --> 00:20:04,695
So with a team, when we have workshops,
especially the public workshops,

392
00:20:04,695 --> 00:20:07,005
we aim for a minimum of 16 people.

393
00:20:07,245 --> 00:20:09,795
And I generally collaborate
with a deaf educator.

394
00:20:10,425 --> 00:20:13,695
So we split the group up half, half,
half in the morning, go to the deaf

395
00:20:13,695 --> 00:20:16,755
educator after me, and then we swap
in the afternoon for both days.

396
00:20:17,115 --> 00:20:20,500
And so I generally have a team
of eight working consistently.

397
00:20:21,149 --> 00:20:24,240
And so by the end of the
weekend we can have a maid.

398
00:20:24,929 --> 00:20:25,679
That's amazing.

399
00:20:25,679 --> 00:20:29,730
And then it can be used and, and you know,

400
00:20:29,730 --> 00:20:34,620
and so I did one for a voluntary assisted
dying and his family came together

401
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,260
the weekend that he was going to die.

402
00:20:37,620 --> 00:20:42,120
And we basically started the Saturday
morning and friends and family came and.

403
00:20:42,990 --> 00:20:46,050
Wove when they were ready
and then went downstairs to

404
00:20:46,050 --> 00:20:47,220
see him when they were ready.

405
00:20:47,220 --> 00:20:51,540
So in between seeing their people,
their person, they would come up

406
00:20:51,540 --> 00:20:54,960
and wait, and it was a really good
focus for the weekend, and we got it

407
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,100
done in the weekend and he literally
went in as soon as it was finished.

408
00:20:59,625 --> 00:21:02,625
That is such a beautiful story
that it's something that people can

409
00:21:02,625 --> 00:21:07,905
actively partake in while they're also
spending time with the person as well.

410
00:21:08,145 --> 00:21:11,115
And it's a really lovely focus as well,
because if you don't have something like

411
00:21:11,115 --> 00:21:14,925
that happening, then people will just be
on their phones or they'll be bored and

412
00:21:14,925 --> 00:21:18,465
want to go somewhere and then, you know,
they'll miss out on the family time.

413
00:21:18,465 --> 00:21:22,245
But working together and like,
I mean, like I said, weaving.

414
00:21:22,770 --> 00:21:24,000
Belongs to all of us.

415
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,830
It's in every single person's lineage.

416
00:21:25,830 --> 00:21:30,330
Humanity grew because of the skills that
we learned to be in nature, and most

417
00:21:30,330 --> 00:21:33,060
of those skills were weaving up skills.

418
00:21:33,060 --> 00:21:38,280
So like if you think to bind housing
or to make fishing nets, or to make

419
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,660
baskets or mats or food carriers, all
of that, they're all weaving skills.

420
00:21:42,660 --> 00:21:47,040
So everywhere in our lineage,
from every tribe there is weaving.

421
00:21:47,490 --> 00:21:50,790
So when people get together
and they weave, it has this.

422
00:21:51,389 --> 00:21:55,170
It's really bit woo woo, but this
cosmic consciousness that when we

423
00:21:55,170 --> 00:21:58,620
weave, we are connecting to all
those who have woven before and to

424
00:21:58,620 --> 00:22:00,360
our lineage and to the ancestors.

425
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,889
And it creates a whole different
atmosphere and vibe that goes

426
00:22:04,889 --> 00:22:06,480
on in any of those spaces.

427
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:12,090
And you find people quiet down, they
go into a rhythm, and because also

428
00:22:12,090 --> 00:22:16,950
they're working with nature, there's
just something that impacts on humans in

429
00:22:16,950 --> 00:22:19,710
a way that digital stuff just won't do.

430
00:22:20,460 --> 00:22:22,710
And tell me when you then.

431
00:22:23,745 --> 00:22:28,125
Have finished the, the coffin
and it is used at the other side

432
00:22:28,125 --> 00:22:30,105
of the things, the, um, process.

433
00:22:30,345 --> 00:22:32,655
I'm assuming that it can
be used in natural burial

434
00:22:32,655 --> 00:22:34,335
grounds 'cause it breaks down.

435
00:22:34,695 --> 00:22:39,105
And, and have you done much work
or research into how it breaks down

436
00:22:39,105 --> 00:22:40,575
or, 'cause I'm assuming it would be.

437
00:22:41,564 --> 00:22:42,770
It, it, you know, it's natural.

438
00:22:42,770 --> 00:22:45,770
It doesn't have any of the compositions
that's perhaps some of the other more

439
00:22:45,770 --> 00:22:48,439
traditional coffins have, I would say,

440
00:22:48,770 --> 00:22:52,429
use anything like varnishes or
metal or anything like that.

441
00:22:52,879 --> 00:22:57,169
And yeah, it breaks down, I can tell
you because we can't use cat's floor for

442
00:22:57,350 --> 00:23:01,370
like, if I could've, I would make outdoor
furniture or something with it, but you

443
00:23:01,370 --> 00:23:03,020
can't because it breaks down so quickly.

444
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:06,510
So it's, it's absolutely
perfect to go into the soil

445
00:23:06,570 --> 00:23:07,980
and it's also perfect to burn.

446
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,439
People go, oh, why would you
burn something so beautiful?

447
00:23:10,439 --> 00:23:13,800
And it's like, well, you are
gonna burn a coffin, so why?

448
00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:15,330
Why actually pull down a tree?

449
00:23:15,330 --> 00:23:16,679
Why varnish wood?

450
00:23:16,679 --> 00:23:20,040
Why do all of those kind of things
and put those into the atmosphere when

451
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,830
you've got something that's invasive
that's killing our native forest?

452
00:23:23,745 --> 00:23:25,514
And why wouldn't you just use that?

453
00:23:25,815 --> 00:23:28,455
So it's, it's perfect for all
of those, those situations.

454
00:23:28,784 --> 00:23:33,135
You know, personally, like, you know that
Victoria, you don't have to be buried in

455
00:23:33,135 --> 00:23:37,335
a coffin or burnt in a coffin in a, in
New South Wales you do, I actually would

456
00:23:37,335 --> 00:23:39,225
love to see that people go in a shroud.

457
00:23:39,225 --> 00:23:43,395
I think that that's perfect opportunity
for being as natural as possible.

458
00:23:43,695 --> 00:23:48,705
And I, I also am in the process of making
shroud carriers and bearers so that

459
00:23:48,795 --> 00:23:51,010
basically it's a woven top and a base.

460
00:23:51,975 --> 00:23:54,885
The person goes in on the base
and the top can be reused if they

461
00:23:54,885 --> 00:23:59,745
want, or it can go down with them,
so, or into the ator with them.

462
00:23:59,860 --> 00:24:00,080
So.

463
00:24:01,260 --> 00:24:06,270
And maybe just talk through the difference
between a, a coffin and a shroud and

464
00:24:06,270 --> 00:24:09,900
the shroud carrier for people who are
unfamiliar with those differences.

465
00:24:10,170 --> 00:24:10,440
Okay.

466
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:16,680
So a, a shroud carrier, basically shroud
is where you are covered over in either

467
00:24:16,770 --> 00:24:21,600
a textile of some sort, and it, it
could even be paperback, it could be

468
00:24:21,629 --> 00:24:25,530
possum, it could be cotton sheeting, it
could be calico, it could be anything.

469
00:24:26,055 --> 00:24:28,935
It could be silk, wool, any
of those kind of things.

470
00:24:29,115 --> 00:24:32,355
I mean, it could be polyester, but I
wouldn't, I mean it could possibly even

471
00:24:32,355 --> 00:24:36,675
have a plastic one, but I'm obviously,
it's not something that I'd be promoting.

472
00:24:37,065 --> 00:24:40,570
But yeah, so that a shroud is where
the body is covered in material and.

473
00:24:41,445 --> 00:24:46,395
Then it goes onto a flat base
and then, or some shroud carries,

474
00:24:46,395 --> 00:24:49,965
actually they're more like a bassinet
or a, you know, the old hots.

475
00:24:49,965 --> 00:24:50,025
Yeah.

476
00:24:50,295 --> 00:24:53,925
So it has, um, a little bit
of weaving and then a bit of a

477
00:24:53,925 --> 00:24:55,725
umbrella type thing on the top.

478
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:56,090
Yeah.

479
00:24:57,045 --> 00:24:57,286
So, yeah.

480
00:24:57,286 --> 00:24:58,485
So Or old pram.

481
00:24:58,515 --> 00:24:59,655
The old prams actually.

482
00:24:59,655 --> 00:24:59,895
But a,

483
00:25:00,525 --> 00:25:04,605
yeah, I'm thinking the old woven
bassinets that Yeah, yeah, yeah.

484
00:25:04,605 --> 00:25:05,715
With the little half.

485
00:25:06,135 --> 00:25:07,755
So that could be a strap carrier as well.

486
00:25:07,755 --> 00:25:10,305
But the ones that I'm
intending on making are more.

487
00:25:10,919 --> 00:25:16,050
Where they are a base, and then I make
a, a lead that's like an upside down

488
00:25:16,050 --> 00:25:17,909
coffin, but it's a hundred percent woven.

489
00:25:17,970 --> 00:25:21,209
There's no, um, yeah, there's
a, a little bit of wood in the

490
00:25:21,389 --> 00:25:24,270
top section and that can be a
personalized piece of wood as well.

491
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,909
That doesn't have to be
something that I choose.

492
00:25:26,909 --> 00:25:30,720
It can be whatever the family chooses
and basically that can be taken

493
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,530
off and the person could go into
a cremator or be buried like that,

494
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:39,000
or they could be taken off the base
even and maded or buried that way.

495
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:39,899
That's great.

496
00:25:39,899 --> 00:25:42,899
No, it's just some people may
not be familiar with the, the

497
00:25:42,899 --> 00:25:44,129
difference between the two.

498
00:25:44,129 --> 00:25:46,110
So thank you so much for explaining

499
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:51,179
that lid from on the top and a a
shroud carrier is a flat base with a

500
00:25:51,179 --> 00:25:53,490
lid that comes off and that's more.

501
00:25:53,835 --> 00:25:56,685
It's like a butter dish
is kind of like a way,

502
00:25:56,745 --> 00:25:58,455
that's a good way to explain it actually.

503
00:25:59,745 --> 00:26:00,195
Yeah.

504
00:26:00,315 --> 00:26:01,005
Yeah, yeah.

505
00:26:01,455 --> 00:26:06,675
And tell me, I'd like to talk about
that experience and that you see

506
00:26:06,735 --> 00:26:09,405
during your workshops about how people.

507
00:26:10,274 --> 00:26:14,324
Come into that experience and then sort
of that sort of, I suppose, evolution

508
00:26:14,324 --> 00:26:18,794
or transition that you see with that,
that collective creating and the

509
00:26:18,794 --> 00:26:22,334
difference that that makes that you
see in people through your workshops.

510
00:26:23,084 --> 00:26:25,814
So there's three different
types of workshops.

511
00:26:25,814 --> 00:26:29,054
So you've got the living wake,
so that's family and friends and

512
00:26:29,054 --> 00:26:30,344
the community that come together.

513
00:26:30,735 --> 00:26:35,115
And then you've got like the, which, uh,
like almost, it's almost a living weight,

514
00:26:35,115 --> 00:26:38,310
but it's a voluntary assisted dying
where they come together and the person.

515
00:26:38,990 --> 00:26:43,700
Basically dies that weekend or that at
that when their, the coffin's ready.

516
00:26:43,910 --> 00:26:45,620
And then you've got the public workshops.

517
00:26:45,740 --> 00:26:47,330
So the public workshops
are quite different.

518
00:26:47,330 --> 00:26:50,180
So that's for people who are
interested in talking to.

519
00:26:50,940 --> 00:26:52,140
Dying grief and care.

520
00:26:52,470 --> 00:26:55,770
And they also want to see if they,
they're interested in making a

521
00:26:55,770 --> 00:27:00,000
coffin or to have the experience
of making it weaving and talking

522
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,770
and doing all those kind of things.

523
00:27:01,980 --> 00:27:04,980
All of them have profound
experiences, I have to say.

524
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:10,185
The public workshops, generally, someone
in the public workshop is buying the

525
00:27:10,260 --> 00:27:15,480
coffin, or we donate it to an independent
funeral director, a funeral company.

526
00:27:15,570 --> 00:27:18,090
So if it's going to someone
in the workshop, they know who

527
00:27:18,090 --> 00:27:19,650
they're making it for, and.

528
00:27:20,050 --> 00:27:22,060
There's just, what a beautiful experience.

529
00:27:22,060 --> 00:27:27,610
People just are happy to weave and like
I said, that we weaving 'cause it's so

530
00:27:27,610 --> 00:27:29,950
ancestral and because it, it's a rhythm.

531
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,450
And when you start moving in a
rhythm, which people who are dancers

532
00:27:34,450 --> 00:27:35,980
will know and people who weave.

533
00:27:36,570 --> 00:27:40,440
Is you drop to the natural rhythm that
you actually have within yourself.

534
00:27:40,620 --> 00:27:42,690
And so it's actually
incredibly nourishing.

535
00:27:42,870 --> 00:27:45,570
And then when you're talking about
profound things like death, which

536
00:27:45,570 --> 00:27:49,440
most people don't get an experience
or opportunity to talk about, then

537
00:27:49,445 --> 00:27:53,160
it, it just, it has this really
deep, profound effect on people

538
00:27:53,700 --> 00:27:57,240
then that's quite different to those
who come to a living weight where

539
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:58,980
their person has been diagnosed.

540
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,520
They know that they're not gonna survive
forever, or they know that there is a

541
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,320
limited time for that particular person.

542
00:28:04,650 --> 00:28:06,090
And so there is.

543
00:28:06,810 --> 00:28:10,530
Because it's so personal, because
that person invited all those people

544
00:28:10,530 --> 00:28:14,760
to be there, and there is that time
to talk about that person and all the

545
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:16,380
experiences you have with that person.

546
00:28:16,650 --> 00:28:19,950
It also obviously drops to that
really deep place where people are

547
00:28:19,950 --> 00:28:25,740
just reflecting on the gifts of that
person, the gifts of life and, and

548
00:28:25,740 --> 00:28:27,210
the sadness that you go through.

549
00:28:27,300 --> 00:28:29,730
Knowing that that person might
be there forever and that

550
00:28:29,910 --> 00:28:32,100
you're doing this as their last.

551
00:28:32,940 --> 00:28:37,530
Resting place and, and what I also find
so beautiful about the living wakes is

552
00:28:37,530 --> 00:28:42,690
that sometimes the family live quite a
distance away or they're not interacting

553
00:28:42,690 --> 00:28:46,410
with that person all the time, and they
finally get to meet the neighbors or the.

554
00:28:46,845 --> 00:28:50,265
You know the community that this person,
when they're talking on the phone would

555
00:28:50,265 --> 00:28:54,255
say, oh, yes, or such and such, did they,
even these, the kids don't necessarily

556
00:28:54,255 --> 00:28:57,645
know who that person is because they
don't live near the person who's dying.

557
00:28:57,885 --> 00:29:01,305
And so when they go to the funeral,
instead of it being like, I think that's

558
00:29:01,305 --> 00:29:06,015
dad's neighbor, it's like, oh, that,
that's who, whoever it is, who was

559
00:29:06,015 --> 00:29:07,965
at the weekend of leaving the coffin.

560
00:29:08,205 --> 00:29:12,525
So it creates a certain container of
care, that person and for the family.

561
00:29:12,675 --> 00:29:13,470
Once that person goes.

562
00:29:14,055 --> 00:29:15,135
So that's pretty special.

563
00:29:15,135 --> 00:29:17,925
And then obviously voluntary
assisted dying experiences.

564
00:29:18,015 --> 00:29:21,465
Those who are closest to
that person are all together.

565
00:29:21,645 --> 00:29:24,855
And sometimes, you know, as everyone
knows these days, not everyone

566
00:29:24,855 --> 00:29:26,685
gets on, especially families.

567
00:29:26,685 --> 00:29:30,675
They don't necessarily get on, but
all of that gets put aside because

568
00:29:30,675 --> 00:29:34,755
it's that day that that person's
gonna die and it's the thing that

569
00:29:34,755 --> 00:29:39,375
they're gonna make for this person
to go into in a couple of hours time.

570
00:29:39,705 --> 00:29:42,075
So it just has this
profound effect on people.

571
00:29:44,385 --> 00:29:51,645
And tell me, with the transition of your
arts practice, what has it taught you?

572
00:29:51,645 --> 00:29:55,575
What have been the lessons for you,
seeing you've been part of these

573
00:29:55,575 --> 00:29:58,455
amazing transformative experiences?

574
00:29:58,485 --> 00:30:01,785
What does it mean for you at the
end of the day when you go, wow.

575
00:30:01,845 --> 00:30:02,565
You know,

576
00:30:02,655 --> 00:30:06,615
well, it's definitely given me a different
perspective on deaf and dying and yeah,

577
00:30:06,615 --> 00:30:12,105
it, it also came at a time that my mother
just went into nursing care, and so it's

578
00:30:12,165 --> 00:30:15,795
definitely, yeah, it's had that impact
where it's like, okay, these are the

579
00:30:15,795 --> 00:30:19,665
things that I'm learn, like I'm learning
so much about the deaf and deaf care

580
00:30:20,055 --> 00:30:23,145
industry and also about how I wanna go.

581
00:30:23,205 --> 00:30:26,385
I'm very much into the natural
world, so I thought that.

582
00:30:27,314 --> 00:30:31,155
Maybe I'd go cremation, but since
being in the deaf industry, not at all.

583
00:30:31,215 --> 00:30:32,054
I wanna be buried.

584
00:30:32,054 --> 00:30:33,405
I want to go back to the earth.

585
00:30:33,405 --> 00:30:36,794
That nourished me, and I want to go
in the most natural way possible.

586
00:30:36,794 --> 00:30:40,995
And I, I, I'm very much an advocate
for that and I talk about that a

587
00:30:40,995 --> 00:30:44,895
lot to people who come and think
that they want to be cremated.

588
00:30:45,554 --> 00:30:49,395
I'll give them a few of the facts and, and
the things that I know about information

589
00:30:49,395 --> 00:30:54,105
that I don't necessarily think most
people don't understand or know about.

590
00:30:54,105 --> 00:30:55,995
So yeah, just go, yeah, please.

591
00:30:55,995 --> 00:31:00,764
This is why I'd go burial and this
is why I'd go in a shroud if I can.

592
00:31:01,155 --> 00:31:01,365
Yeah.

593
00:31:02,024 --> 00:31:06,554
So with, um, your personal perspective
in mind, can you share some of

594
00:31:06,554 --> 00:31:09,735
those, those things with us that
you perhaps share with people?

595
00:31:10,274 --> 00:31:14,564
Yeah, so basically the resources
that are used in information is.

596
00:31:14,939 --> 00:31:15,750
Intense.

597
00:31:15,810 --> 00:31:19,169
It can be anything from two to
six hours to burn a body and or

598
00:31:19,590 --> 00:31:20,879
um, the coffin and everything.

599
00:31:20,939 --> 00:31:23,459
There's some things that I won't
talk about that I've heard that

600
00:31:23,459 --> 00:31:25,379
I'm like, that is terrible.

601
00:31:25,500 --> 00:31:28,919
So the resources, then the pollution
that goes into the atmosphere,

602
00:31:28,919 --> 00:31:30,419
even though there's filters.

603
00:31:30,479 --> 00:31:35,070
And I also hear that at some stage
you're gonna try and reduce the

604
00:31:35,399 --> 00:31:38,550
use of gas informations because
it's a resource that we don't have.

605
00:31:38,625 --> 00:31:40,635
And endless, or will we possibly do that?

606
00:31:40,725 --> 00:31:44,925
I dunno how much supplies we have, but
yeah, it's a resource that they're very

607
00:31:44,925 --> 00:31:51,255
much thinking about and I just think,
I've seen a few bodies go into a cremator

608
00:31:51,315 --> 00:31:54,435
and I'm like, that is so backwards.

609
00:31:54,435 --> 00:31:59,565
That is so, I, I won't talk about the
secret things that they do because I'm

610
00:31:59,625 --> 00:32:02,295
just like, that is just so archaic.

611
00:32:02,715 --> 00:32:04,005
So I won't go into that.

612
00:32:04,005 --> 00:32:06,375
But yeah, it's mainly the resources.

613
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,030
And the chemicals that
go into the atmosphere.

614
00:32:09,210 --> 00:32:12,270
And like I said, I am much
more into the burials.

615
00:32:12,270 --> 00:32:16,410
I'm working with Wall Way, which
is Australia's first conservation

616
00:32:16,410 --> 00:32:19,110
burial site down south of Sydney.

617
00:32:19,110 --> 00:32:22,560
And basically they're going to
bury bodies and let the forests

618
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,310
slowly move towards those bodies
and, and breaking down that way.

619
00:32:26,310 --> 00:32:27,900
And I, I can't think of anything better.

620
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,630
Can't think of like, that's
how we used to do it.

621
00:32:30,690 --> 00:32:32,160
Why wouldn't we continue doing that?

622
00:32:32,730 --> 00:32:37,440
It's interesting that you say that you
changed your point of view about what you,

623
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,810
you would like for your own end of life.

624
00:32:40,290 --> 00:32:43,560
What is it that really attracts
you to the natural burial?

625
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:44,520
Now,

626
00:32:44,820 --> 00:32:47,550
the fact, like I said
before, that the earth has.

627
00:32:47,940 --> 00:32:49,830
Basically nourished us continuously.

628
00:32:49,830 --> 00:32:53,040
It's given us food, it's given us
air, it's given us water, everything,

629
00:32:53,250 --> 00:32:56,130
every kind of goodness that's
possible becomes a bush, Turkey.

630
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,380
Everything that's possible for us to
be healthy, the earth has given us.

631
00:33:01,380 --> 00:33:04,380
So why would we not go back to the
earth and nourish it in, in the way

632
00:33:04,380 --> 00:33:09,240
that it's given to us, and all the
rest of nature goes back into itself?

633
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:10,200
It's this cycle.

634
00:33:10,230 --> 00:33:11,555
So why wouldn't you do that?

635
00:33:13,095 --> 00:33:13,754
It is interesting.

636
00:33:13,754 --> 00:33:17,745
I was very much always thinking
that I would be cremated until I

637
00:33:17,745 --> 00:33:22,185
went overseas a few years ago and
had the opportunity to look at two

638
00:33:22,245 --> 00:33:24,405
natural burial grounds in the uk.

639
00:33:24,735 --> 00:33:28,425
One with just like a forest
that was just amazing.

640
00:33:28,425 --> 00:33:32,055
You'd expect fairies to pop out
and Bambi to be walking past.

641
00:33:32,055 --> 00:33:32,440
It was just.

642
00:33:32,860 --> 00:33:34,899
Which is what follow my way will be.

643
00:33:34,899 --> 00:33:35,590
I, you know.

644
00:33:36,010 --> 00:33:39,010
And then, and then another one, which
you, you'd probably be interested

645
00:33:39,010 --> 00:33:42,189
in as well was a organic dairy farm.

646
00:33:42,250 --> 00:33:46,780
They actually have a mobile dairy
where the dairy goes to the cows, so

647
00:33:46,780 --> 00:33:50,560
it's not, the cows aren't treking on
the same path to the dairy each time

648
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,689
for less erosion and and destruction.

649
00:33:52,689 --> 00:33:57,550
And they're actually creating a
natural burial ground to then become

650
00:33:57,550 --> 00:33:59,620
the bio corridor between two remnant.

651
00:33:59,910 --> 00:34:03,840
Pieces of forest that were
existing from many years ago.

652
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,100
And, and I just thought, wow, is
this what it could possibly be Like?

653
00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:09,150
This is amazing.

654
00:34:09,659 --> 00:34:09,720
Yeah.

655
00:34:09,750 --> 00:34:14,550
Uh, so yeah, they were the things that,
that struck me because you, you know,

656
00:34:14,850 --> 00:34:20,280
this was sort of over a few years ago
now and, and there's more natural burial

657
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,840
grounds and discussions that are having
now, but at that stage, to see those

658
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,030
two really well established was, yeah.

659
00:34:27,055 --> 00:34:28,475
Really aous firing.

660
00:34:29,115 --> 00:34:29,804
Absolutely.

661
00:34:29,804 --> 00:34:33,075
And like I said, Walla Way and
Ella will be just like that.

662
00:34:33,075 --> 00:34:34,845
And also, you know, composting.

663
00:34:34,845 --> 00:34:38,385
I wouldn't mind going if, when,
if composting comes to Australia.

664
00:34:38,475 --> 00:34:41,865
I think that that's also a really good
way to do it just so that we break down

665
00:34:41,865 --> 00:34:46,784
naturally and that we become nourishment
for the earth or for other things in

666
00:34:46,784 --> 00:34:49,125
nature, I think is a, just makes sense.

667
00:34:49,815 --> 00:34:52,455
It just doesn't seem to be
a reason to burn our bodies.

668
00:34:52,455 --> 00:34:55,336
'cause you even, like when you,
when you get the ashes, you can't.

669
00:34:55,710 --> 00:34:59,190
Put it in the ground and then plant a
tree on it because the chemistry of the

670
00:34:59,190 --> 00:35:01,050
ashes just won't allow trees to grow.

671
00:35:02,459 --> 00:35:07,620
Yeah, there is one organization that I've
been out to, which is Mornington Green

672
00:35:07,620 --> 00:35:13,529
on here in the Mornington Peninsula, and
they actually have a chemical that they've

673
00:35:13,529 --> 00:35:19,529
devised, which actually neutralizes the
acids in the ashes for their plantings.

674
00:35:19,859 --> 00:35:20,819
But you're right.

675
00:35:20,819 --> 00:35:24,419
You know, traditionally it has
been a real issue for planting,

676
00:35:24,810 --> 00:35:26,640
you know, ashes and trees.

677
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,529
They just don't mix the tree roots.

678
00:35:29,070 --> 00:35:29,580
And Simmy.

679
00:35:29,580 --> 00:35:33,120
What has been some of the biggest
challenges you've found when you've,

680
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:37,800
you've gone down your, your pathway
of, of your eco-friendly coffins?

681
00:35:37,950 --> 00:35:41,550
Well, selling is a really hard
thing to do when people are dying.

682
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,310
Um, obviously, like people
dunno when they're gonna die.

683
00:35:44,430 --> 00:35:48,030
First of all, most, most of the population
don't dunno when they're gonna die, so

684
00:35:48,035 --> 00:35:52,215
they don't want to have a c. Hanging
around, which I, I totally think is fair.

685
00:35:52,215 --> 00:35:52,965
I wouldn't either.

686
00:35:53,295 --> 00:35:55,845
And then when people are in that
stage where they know they're gonna

687
00:35:55,845 --> 00:35:59,625
die, they don't talk about, and
their families certainly don't wanna

688
00:35:59,625 --> 00:36:03,495
talk about, everyone wants to stay
positive and they'll get through this

689
00:36:03,495 --> 00:36:05,805
and, you know, it's all, all okay.

690
00:36:05,835 --> 00:36:10,485
And then what I find really sad is that
when it comes time that they actually

691
00:36:10,485 --> 00:36:12,195
have died and everyone's in grief, then.

692
00:36:13,530 --> 00:36:19,680
There's just too much grief going down
to actually talk about what many of

693
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,850
the, the sensible things or the things
that would make sense to that person if,

694
00:36:23,940 --> 00:36:28,200
especially if they're an environmentalist
or into natural things that, you know,

695
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,960
if I couldn't go up to the family and
say, Hey, look, I've got a coffin.

696
00:36:31,050 --> 00:36:31,740
How about me?

697
00:36:31,950 --> 00:36:33,000
You know, this, that and the other?

698
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,470
Or even come and make a coffin
in such grief that they can't

699
00:36:37,470 --> 00:36:38,670
face those kind of things.

700
00:36:38,670 --> 00:36:42,509
And then all it takes is just one of the
family members to go, I am not doing that.

701
00:36:42,660 --> 00:36:44,640
For it to never happen.

702
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,609
So I, I find that is a huge challenge.

703
00:36:48,060 --> 00:36:49,049
I'm selling coffins.

704
00:36:49,589 --> 00:36:52,379
It's, it's actually when I started
the business, I thought I'll just make

705
00:36:52,379 --> 00:36:54,029
coffins and then I can just sell them.

706
00:36:54,029 --> 00:36:56,879
Especially, 'cause I live on the north
coast of New South Wales, so I, I'm

707
00:36:56,879 --> 00:36:58,589
in the Byron Shire not far from Nien.

708
00:36:59,250 --> 00:37:01,740
So it's like everyone
will be into it, surely.

709
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:03,629
It's such a hard sell.

710
00:37:03,870 --> 00:37:05,160
It's a no-go zone really.

711
00:37:05,399 --> 00:37:06,720
So that's really hard.

712
00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:10,259
So that's, thankfully I got into
doing the workshops and working and

713
00:37:10,319 --> 00:37:11,790
collaborating with deaf educators.

714
00:37:11,790 --> 00:37:16,379
So that really has changed my,
it's turned the business around.

715
00:37:16,439 --> 00:37:20,399
But yeah, it's also given me more
opportunity to talk deaf dying and

716
00:37:20,399 --> 00:37:24,839
care, and also help people become more
educated through my collaborators.

717
00:37:24,839 --> 00:37:27,629
So, and they're, they're my advocates.

718
00:37:27,689 --> 00:37:31,950
So I, I can't, I literally can't
go up to people and say, oh, look,

719
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:33,299
I heard your mother had a stroke.

720
00:37:33,375 --> 00:37:34,935
I've got a coffin for you.

721
00:37:35,205 --> 00:37:35,895
You can do that.

722
00:37:37,185 --> 00:37:42,975
And tell me, what would you
like to see people consider when

723
00:37:43,125 --> 00:37:44,745
they're going through the process?

724
00:37:44,745 --> 00:37:46,005
Is it more pre-planning?

725
00:37:46,005 --> 00:37:48,105
Is it more open conversations?

726
00:37:48,465 --> 00:37:51,405
You know, you, you mentioned earlier
that there's so much you've learned

727
00:37:51,435 --> 00:37:54,825
about the death care industry since
you started working in this space.

728
00:37:55,275 --> 00:37:59,830
What are some of those things where
you'd like to see improved or.

729
00:38:01,335 --> 00:38:06,765
I think all of those things are happening
and all of the machinery is in action and

730
00:38:06,945 --> 00:38:10,785
it's just a matter of people taking up on
those, the offerings that are available.

731
00:38:10,785 --> 00:38:13,935
So yeah, I'd love everyone
to have deaf education.

732
00:38:13,935 --> 00:38:18,915
I'd love everyone to start talking
about it and for it not to be so taboo.

733
00:38:19,185 --> 00:38:22,125
But then, you know, when you're
in the industry, it's not taboo.

734
00:38:22,335 --> 00:38:23,985
'cause everyone is in the industry.

735
00:38:24,390 --> 00:38:27,990
Talking about it, but it's, it's
the general public and I guess,

736
00:38:28,170 --> 00:38:32,160
you know, that's after 150 years of
indoctrination that death and dying

737
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,940
is something that to be taken care
of by someone else and you know, just

738
00:38:35,940 --> 00:38:37,860
hand it over and we'll deal with it.

739
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,280
And also that whole, you know, don't
talk about it because you jinx yourself.

740
00:38:41,700 --> 00:38:43,650
All of those superstitions
that come with that.

741
00:38:43,650 --> 00:38:45,900
So yeah, I'd love people to.

742
00:38:45,975 --> 00:38:50,595
I think honestly and clearly about
it, and just work with people.

743
00:38:50,745 --> 00:38:53,325
Like the people I collaborate
with, my deaf educators.

744
00:38:53,685 --> 00:38:57,105
They're wonderful people and so everyone
just needs to have one of them as a

745
00:38:57,105 --> 00:39:01,665
friend I think, or come to a workshop
and and start talking about it.

746
00:39:02,205 --> 00:39:07,125
And if people have an interest
in bark basket ba, here we go.

747
00:39:07,125 --> 00:39:13,995
Bark tree, um, basket tree, where could
you encourage them to, to start learning?

748
00:39:14,174 --> 00:39:15,225
Where can people look?

749
00:39:15,660 --> 00:39:18,300
Okay, so there's
associations in most states.

750
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,580
Victoria has the basket
makers of Victoria.

751
00:39:20,580 --> 00:39:23,820
You've got the South Australian basket
makers, you've got basket makers

752
00:39:23,820 --> 00:39:28,710
of New South Wales, Tasmania, um,
spinners and weavers in Queensland.

753
00:39:28,710 --> 00:39:30,570
So there's basket makers
all over the place.

754
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:31,890
Organizations.

755
00:39:31,890 --> 00:39:33,720
There's also a lot of people teaching.

756
00:39:34,065 --> 00:39:37,964
My recommendation is go with a teacher
who forages their own material and who

757
00:39:37,964 --> 00:39:39,825
actually knows something about basketry.

758
00:39:39,825 --> 00:39:45,134
Because basket making is one of those
industries or one of those areas where

759
00:39:46,035 --> 00:39:49,154
a lot of people do one workshop and
they think that they're ready to teach

760
00:39:49,154 --> 00:39:51,015
and they know very little about it.

761
00:39:51,045 --> 00:39:52,305
They're buying their materials.

762
00:39:52,305 --> 00:39:56,115
They know nothing about the names of
the natural materials or the techniques

763
00:39:56,115 --> 00:39:59,174
or anything, but there are some
really good basket makers out there.

764
00:39:59,174 --> 00:40:02,145
So Instagram is a great
way of finding people.

765
00:40:02,685 --> 00:40:06,855
But yeah, my recommendation is if you
are looking for people, go for people

766
00:40:06,855 --> 00:40:10,545
who are collecting raw material and they
generally have a little bit more knowledge

767
00:40:10,634 --> 00:40:12,944
than those who are purchasing material.

768
00:40:13,154 --> 00:40:17,235
But basketry is a really good start
if you are wanting to make a weapon.

769
00:40:17,355 --> 00:40:17,625
Yeah.

770
00:40:17,685 --> 00:40:19,395
Get some basketry skills.

771
00:40:19,935 --> 00:40:22,965
Is there any other pearls of
wisdom that you'd like to share

772
00:40:22,965 --> 00:40:24,285
that you've learned along the way?

773
00:40:24,455 --> 00:40:24,875
Zimmi

774
00:40:24,944 --> 00:40:25,335
well.

775
00:40:26,540 --> 00:40:27,795
Not pearls of wisdom.

776
00:40:28,515 --> 00:40:32,805
Have plenty of warnings, like the
funeral industry isn't overly interested

777
00:40:32,835 --> 00:40:37,455
in people weaving their own coffins
and the funeral industry is, as you,

778
00:40:37,575 --> 00:40:40,635
you, you would know far more than me
with the people that you interview.

779
00:40:40,635 --> 00:40:45,315
Like it's run by, it's just been
bought by a new company and it,

780
00:40:45,315 --> 00:40:50,805
most of the businesses are different
arms of the one company, and so

781
00:40:51,405 --> 00:40:52,755
they're not very interested in.

782
00:40:53,505 --> 00:40:57,165
Green and there's a lot of greenwashing
actually that goes on, like the whole

783
00:40:57,795 --> 00:41:01,845
basketry, sorry, the coffins that are
coming from Asia, the willow coffins.

784
00:41:02,445 --> 00:41:07,485
I would get people to think seriously
about that because you've got a

785
00:41:08,055 --> 00:41:12,735
material that's somebody else's resource
coming all the way over the ocean

786
00:41:12,735 --> 00:41:15,615
and, and we all know that anything
that comes into Australia that's

787
00:41:15,615 --> 00:41:20,115
a natural fiber gets sprayed with
the most amount of toxic chemicals.

788
00:41:20,384 --> 00:41:24,645
So this green basket that you think that
you are getting is not necessarily green.

789
00:41:25,245 --> 00:41:29,774
And also I do understand that
the Willa that they're using in

790
00:41:29,774 --> 00:41:31,694
Asia is not natural material.

791
00:41:31,694 --> 00:41:33,674
It's not their native material.

792
00:41:33,674 --> 00:41:38,145
So they're importing and they're
creating a monoculture and paying

793
00:41:38,145 --> 00:41:40,575
really low wages to their people.

794
00:41:40,935 --> 00:41:44,955
But also the fact, like I said, that it's
coming all the way over the ocean and

795
00:41:45,075 --> 00:41:46,904
being sprayed to get into the country.

796
00:41:46,904 --> 00:41:48,854
And a lot of them have plastic lining.

797
00:41:49,845 --> 00:41:52,274
This green alternative isn't that green?

798
00:41:52,754 --> 00:41:57,975
And yeah, I'm, I think like I totally
get the whole painting, cardboard,

799
00:41:57,975 --> 00:42:02,564
coffins, but then that also just,
I can feel myself just like stab in

800
00:42:02,564 --> 00:42:07,035
the back because most of the paints
are plastic and it won't break down.

801
00:42:07,035 --> 00:42:11,504
And it's just, especially cadmium
and in the reds and all of the

802
00:42:11,504 --> 00:42:14,250
different colors have all of
these different poisons in them.

803
00:42:15,165 --> 00:42:18,345
That, that also really does concern
me that, and I know that it's a

804
00:42:18,345 --> 00:42:20,265
wonderful therapy for people to do that.

805
00:42:20,384 --> 00:42:23,354
It's just one of those
things I just go, oh, really?

806
00:42:23,354 --> 00:42:28,064
It's not, it's not that green when you
paint it, it's, yeah, you actually bring

807
00:42:28,245 --> 00:42:32,115
toxins back in the ground or into the
atmosphere, which really worries me.

808
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:32,189
So.

809
00:42:33,420 --> 00:42:35,280
No massive pearls of wisdom.

810
00:42:35,370 --> 00:42:39,240
If anyone's thinking of getting
into weaving coffins, come and do a

811
00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:44,190
workshop with me and see what it's
like because it's very time consuming.

812
00:42:44,190 --> 00:42:48,090
Like I said, there's about 60 hours
of collecting and about 60 hours

813
00:42:48,090 --> 00:42:52,710
of weaving, so anyone who's really
sensible, you won't get into it.

814
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,550
It's just like it's, it's
a crazy thing to be doing.

815
00:42:56,759 --> 00:42:58,920
It really is, but it's, yeah.

816
00:42:59,070 --> 00:43:01,125
My morals and ethics are.

817
00:43:02,070 --> 00:43:03,510
That things aren't about money.

818
00:43:03,570 --> 00:43:06,270
It's about doing the best
thing for the planet.

819
00:43:06,330 --> 00:43:09,810
And so that's why I do what I do,
but anyone who's interested in

820
00:43:09,810 --> 00:43:13,650
as a business will quickly decide
that it's just not a good business.

821
00:43:14,010 --> 00:43:14,190
Yeah.

822
00:43:15,570 --> 00:43:16,530
But support people

823
00:43:16,530 --> 00:43:17,880
who do do these things.

824
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:25,589
That's very true and, and I do really
love how it all comes back to it

825
00:43:25,589 --> 00:43:29,970
based on your way of living and how
you leave the footprint on the land

826
00:43:29,970 --> 00:43:31,350
that you are, you are walking on.

827
00:43:31,350 --> 00:43:35,460
And I think just even, even at the
start when you were talking about how.

828
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,899
The permaculture thoughts of you
don't drive your car unless you've

829
00:43:39,899 --> 00:43:41,490
got three things that you're doing.

830
00:43:41,759 --> 00:43:45,839
So just even breaking down your
everyday life and the way in which

831
00:43:45,839 --> 00:43:47,580
you think has been very insightful.

832
00:43:47,580 --> 00:43:50,609
Zimmi, I can't thank you enough
for spending time with us today.

833
00:43:51,839 --> 00:43:52,080
Thank you, Catherine.

834
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,649
Thanks for your interest and I hope that
it, it is enlightening to some people

835
00:43:55,649 --> 00:44:00,960
and that Yeah, if people are interested,
there's always like, I'm running workshops

836
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,259
for the public and also running how
to weave your own coffin workshop.

837
00:44:04,350 --> 00:44:07,049
And yeah, I'm the only
one doing it in Australia.

838
00:44:07,049 --> 00:44:09,390
So please get in contact and

839
00:44:09,870 --> 00:44:14,160
talk to me and have a go and we
will have all of your details

840
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:15,720
listed in the show notes as well.

841
00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:17,770
So thank you so much again, Zimmi.

842
00:44:17,790 --> 00:44:19,080
I've really loved our chat today.

843
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:20,370
Much appreciated.

844
00:44:20,370 --> 00:44:20,670
Thank you.

845
00:44:24,330 --> 00:44:27,750
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846
00:44:28,049 --> 00:44:29,820
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847
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