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Too often people are rushed through this
process from hospice to they've died

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and now we're going to a funeral home.

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It happens very, very quickly
as opposed to home care where

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we used to take our time.

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It used to be over the course
of a week or two weeks where

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Too often people are rushed through this
process from hospice to they've died

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00:00:07,399 --> 00:00:09,140
and now we're going to a funeral home.

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It happens very, very quickly
as opposed to home care where

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we used to take our time.

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00:00:13,209 --> 00:00:15,799
It used to be over the course
of a week or two weeks where

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we could stay with the body.

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And I think we're trying to regain that
connection with the person who died.

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So it's all about connecting
with their death now rather

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than their life sometimes.

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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a
podcast encouraging open conversations

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about dying and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death back to life.

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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges the
lands of the Kulin nations and recognises

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their connection to land, sea, and air.

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We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging, and extend

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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Today I have with me Chloe Marcela Coelho.

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She runs a creative practice that
explores the intricate dimensions

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of death, grief and design.

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Chloe is a death scholar.

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Her academic work focuses on deepening
death literacy and developing innovative

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strategies to enhance public understanding
of this universal human experience.

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Chloe is currently undertaking
PhD research and her focus is on

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memorialization, examining the
relationship between materiality

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and the construction of meaning
within the grieving process.

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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, Chloe.

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Thanks Catherine.

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I am very excited for
the conversation today.

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So Chloe, we met very briefly in
Sydney just before Christmas last

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year at the Death and Dying Festival
that they were running up there.

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And then I also came across your
name again just before Christmas,

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busy time of year for the death
industry, where you were actually

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one of the facilitators as part of
expiry dates that was at M Pavilion.

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Yes, that's correct.

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So, all the places we kind of end up
finding each other, a little unusual,

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but It's pretty common, isn't it, within
this industry that you generally find the

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same faces, which become very familiar.

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Now, tell me, Chloe,
what is a death scholar?

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A death scholar is anyone looking into
the field of death or thanatology.

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So, I'm approaching it from a creative
practice point of view, rather than

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anthropologically or medically.

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And so what sort of things
are you focusing on?

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You mentioned that it actually
has a focus on memorialisation and

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its context in relation to grief.

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Can you talk me through just
exactly what that means?

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So my particular creative practice
is more concerned with the

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grieving that happens after death.

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So what can we do or create to encourage
people to explore their own grief?

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Memorialization is a really massive
industry and I think we could include

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more intentional design in it to be
able to come up with really customized,

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really meaningful objects for people.

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And so what sort of things have you
found that people have done when they are

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grieving to, you know, continue to have
that connection with their loved ones?

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I've seen lots of lovely patchwork
quilts made out of t shirts, lots of

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photography being just placed in the
house, there's this beautiful altar,

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this commemoration of the person.

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There's a lot of different ways
that I've seen people memorialize

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someone, and it mostly has something
to do with the physical aspect of it.

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We want to touch it, we want to feel it,
we want to smell it, we want to engage

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all our senses in remembering that person.

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And I get that every time I smell
this perfume of someone that died.

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It takes me right back to them.

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So incorporating little bits like that
into your everyday are really lovely

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reminders that they are still with you.

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Your connection is still ongoing.

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And is that a trend, or have you
specifically sought out to find those more

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tactile ways of memorialising a loved one?

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I think it's more of a trend that we
gravitate towards the tactile side of it.

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I mean, all throughout history with
memento mori, we've had Victorian

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era memento mori photographs.

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Lots of hair weaving, which is
coming back now because we are in

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a Western society here in Australia
that's very focused on consumerism,

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less in touch with the physical.

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So we want to get right back to that.

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Oh, I don't know if that made sense.

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No, no, no, it totally made sense.

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Don't worry.

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It was just that I was thinking about
when you were saying hair weaving.

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So do you want to explain that
for someone who's not familiar?

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Absolutely.

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So there are jewelry designers
currently that vitalized hair

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weaving, but it's this process of
taking hair from a deceased person.

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So this requires some amount
of forethought and planning.

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And they weave them into these
beautiful plaits and patterns that

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get turned into lockets or into rings.

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Even rings under this beautiful
clear stone, all sorts of ways

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to kind of bring hair into it,
which I think is really lovely.

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That's really interesting.

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That's something that, you know, I
was familiar with that classic, you

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know, the cutting the lock of the
hair and popping it in the locket.

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So you have something with
them that you can always carry.

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And so that's interesting that
it's having, would you say

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it's having a resurgence now?

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Yes,

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absolutely.

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Hair weaving is coming back
and putting ashes into rings.

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and other pendants as well.

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It's another way of using the
body as material, respectfully.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And so it's actually that very tactile
of having someone close to you.

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And I've also heard, and you could
certainly give more detail than

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what I'm aware of, but also the
inclusion of ashes in tattoos.

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Have you come across that practice?

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Yes, ashes are really versatile.

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I've seen ashes on ceramics.

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I've seen ashes on tattoos.

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Ashes compressed into diamonds.

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I think that became pretty
popular with the news story.

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Ashes in paint.

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So either thrown on paint or
mixed in with the pigment.

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So there's lots of ways to kind
of bond that powdery material.

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And I suppose because ash has been
part of arts practice throughout the

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ages really, like if you think of
First Nations people, when they're

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doing bark paintings, they actually
use ash and the fire to, you know,

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change the bark and then actually use
the ash in the painting process itself.

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So it's not a new thing that
you're seeing, is it really?

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It's not a new thing, but I
think it's new to contemporary

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cultures, particularly Western
cultures who are very conservative.

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And so tell me, why is
it making a resurgence?

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Like, because it did, you know, I
think, and I'd love your thoughts

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on this, about, you know, when we
removed death from a natural thing that

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happened within the home and it became
more a thing that was happening in

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the hospital or an aged care setting.

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Did we lose that connection to death?

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And, well, that's one question.

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And I suppose my next question is, why
are we trying to regain that connection

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through, you know, Memento Mori?

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Excellent questions.

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We absolutely lost our connection to
death, not only in conservative, but

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because we don't see it every day.

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We don't see it in front of us like
they used to have in the 1900s.

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It was very common for people to die.

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It was very common for children to die.

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And I think particularly with modern
medicine, we tend to want to prolong

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life and there's less of a focus on
that quality of life for the person.

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And so I think we're in this kind of limbo
between medicine wanting us to live longer

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versus accepting death and just being
pulled in these two different directions.

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And I think that makes it very difficult
to have these conversations about death

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to talk about people's last wishes.

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So when we're in this sort of position
that we find ourselves in that we're,

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you know, no longer having our loved
ones die at home, it's being more

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extended through modern medicine
and it's prolonging our lives.

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Why is it then?

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that we're actually then seeking
opportunities where we can include our

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loved ones ashes in jewelry, in, you
know, tattoos, those sorts of things.

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Why do you think that
there's a resurgence?

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I think we're recognizing the
limitations of our current

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industry, our deaf industry.

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So too often people are rushed through
this process from hospice to they've died

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and now we're going to a funeral home.

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It happens very, very quickly,
as opposed to home care where

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we used to take our time.

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It used to be over the course
of a week or two weeks where

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we could stay with the body.

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And I think we're trying to regain that
connection with the person who died.

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So it's all about connecting
with their death now rather

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than their life sometimes.

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And is that why you're finding it
coming in at that grieving process

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so when someone has died that
this is becoming the real kind of

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thing that they're holding on to?

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Holding on to in a sense of
trying to be close to them?

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How do you mean?

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Yeah,

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I think that is, well, you tell
me, why are people doing it?

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What are they trying to fulfill or
overcome or what is the motivation

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that you've been finding behind the
reason why people are doing this?

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I think it comes back to
maintaining that connection.

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I mean, currently we are still told that.

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It's about letting go, moving on, and that
narrative has been challenged 20 years

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ago, but we're still seeing that pattern.

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And we're trying to resist that.

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I think, even subconsciously, we're
trying to keep that connection

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going in whatever way we can.

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And ashes are a particularly viable
way of doing that, because you don't

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see a body, you don't see decay.

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You just see the end result.

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So I think it's more palatable.

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Yeah, it's sort of a more hygienic
way in which to do it, isn't it?

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Like, it's one thing because it's sort
of, when you get the ashes, you know,

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it's gone through the crenulators.

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So it's actually, you know, far
more, like you say, palatable.

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It doesn't resemble the human
form any longer, does it?

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It

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doesn't.

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And I don't know whether that's
necessarily a good thing.

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It does seem more hygienic in that we're
broken down into our basic components.

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It's a carbon.

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But the decaying process
can be made hygienic.

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There are ways in which we can manage it.

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You can touch a dead body.

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You can hug your deceased loved one, you
know, in home care or at the funeral.

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And I think we're losing
that connection as well.

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being brave enough to touch them, if it's
not a common practice in your family.

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And I think that connection
can be quite lovely.

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And it helps with the reality
of the situation, with engaging

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in your senses with that body.

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So you're like, you're thinking,
I'm touching this person's

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hand, I'm holding them.

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They feel really cold and
recognizing that's a normal process.

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So I advocate for becoming
more familiar with bodies.

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Being brave in that way, I
think, can be very healing.

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And tell me, Chloe, how did
you get started in this?

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You know, when you were at school and
went, Okay, I want to be a deaf scholar.

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Like, how do you go through the process
of wanting to be a deaf scholar?

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Was there a particular moment
for you that you went, Yep, this

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is the path I want to go down?

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I didn't know I was going to do this until
my final year of my undergrad degree.

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My mum died when I was 13, and so I
sort of saw everything that went wrong,

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that could go wrong, really quickly.

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collided in this cold, empty
process and experience.

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00:11:46,270 --> 00:11:50,340
And it wasn't until I fully engaged
with my grief in my undergrad

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00:11:50,340 --> 00:11:54,340
project in which I was able to
kind of move with that grief.

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00:11:54,410 --> 00:11:57,280
Can you talk me through
the undergrad project then?

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Because that sounds like
it was the catalyst.

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It was.

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So it was a very Turbulent time for
me, moving out, connections with

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family and friends weren't the best,
they were going through changes, and

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I had realized I finally had that
time and space to really sit with it

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and think about how bad the system
was, how bad the experience had been.

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And so I I decided to work with that, work
with what my mum had left behind for me.

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00:12:26,605 --> 00:12:30,445
So I had this box of all of her
belongings that just sat in the

226
00:12:30,445 --> 00:12:31,965
corner, sat in the cupboard.

227
00:12:31,965 --> 00:12:35,794
I think many people have this kind of box
where all these physical belongings are,

228
00:12:36,305 --> 00:12:39,065
but they're too important to get rid of.

229
00:12:39,964 --> 00:12:45,445
There was this letter that she had wrote
to me when I was a year old that I didn't

230
00:12:45,445 --> 00:12:50,754
read until I was in my late teens, and
it talked about how much she loved me.

231
00:12:51,300 --> 00:12:53,620
Really sweet stuff in her handwriting.

232
00:12:54,260 --> 00:12:58,390
And so I decided to put that letter
on a silk scarf so that I could feel

233
00:12:58,390 --> 00:13:00,580
it, touch it more, and engage with it.

234
00:13:00,829 --> 00:13:04,570
And then on that scarf I put
this color changing ink so it

235
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:05,979
turns transparent in the heat.

236
00:13:06,270 --> 00:13:07,269
It's a little bit hot today.

237
00:13:07,670 --> 00:13:08,640
Oh, wow.

238
00:13:08,730 --> 00:13:12,400
And so that, most of the time, the
text is barely visible when you're

239
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,910
wearing it, but as soon as you
apply more heat, it becomes legible

240
00:13:17,180 --> 00:13:17,590
again.

241
00:13:17,970 --> 00:13:21,229
So, Chloe is just actually showing
us, for everyone who's listening,

242
00:13:21,229 --> 00:13:25,749
Chloe is just showing on the video the
silk scarf that she made as part of

243
00:13:25,750 --> 00:13:30,830
this project, and I'm going to make
an analogy, or an example, for those

244
00:13:30,830 --> 00:13:33,580
who grew up in the 80s, so, you know.

245
00:13:33,890 --> 00:13:34,720
You know who you are.

246
00:13:35,329 --> 00:13:39,780
Remember hypercolor t shirts with change
color when you actually made them hot?

247
00:13:40,170 --> 00:13:44,050
It's using the same principle but
in a much more beautiful manner

248
00:13:44,650 --> 00:13:46,260
than hypercolor was ever used.

249
00:13:47,959 --> 00:13:52,985
That is such a beautiful thing and
and so Your mum, she didn't die until

250
00:13:52,985 --> 00:13:58,875
you were age 13, but she wrote this
letter when you were one year of age.

251
00:13:58,904 --> 00:14:00,825
Did she write it to commemorate your

252
00:14:00,825 --> 00:14:01,765
first birthday?

253
00:14:02,175 --> 00:14:08,875
She mostly wrote about how happy my
parents were to have me in the world.

254
00:14:09,560 --> 00:14:14,739
So, I was very lucky that she
had the forethought to even do

255
00:14:14,739 --> 00:14:16,649
something meaningful like this.

256
00:14:17,199 --> 00:14:17,880
Yeah.

257
00:14:17,949 --> 00:14:22,060
And the fact that you actually have
that from a time where, you know,

258
00:14:22,060 --> 00:14:24,390
it predates her death by 12 years.

259
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:30,650
So, I'm assuming that it had no connection
to her end of life wishes, but just,

260
00:14:30,650 --> 00:14:34,780
it was just a celebration of being a
mother and having you as her daughter.

261
00:14:34,810 --> 00:14:38,829
So, that is a really
priceless thing that you have.

262
00:14:39,430 --> 00:14:39,890
Absolutely.

263
00:14:40,340 --> 00:14:44,689
And it wasn't until this project that
I was able to fully read it properly.

264
00:14:44,790 --> 00:14:49,509
For it to have the impact that
it did, I had to be in a better

265
00:14:49,510 --> 00:14:51,849
place to be able to engage with it.

266
00:14:52,059 --> 00:14:57,120
Yeah, it's so the case that you
see that you can't really truly

267
00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,339
appreciate things until you actually
have the clarity of thought to look

268
00:15:01,349 --> 00:15:03,550
back on it and really value it.

269
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,650
So I'm so glad that you
had that opportunity.

270
00:15:05,699 --> 00:15:10,969
And so what was it about this particular
experience that Then, like, what were

271
00:15:10,969 --> 00:15:13,030
you doing your undergraduate degree

272
00:15:13,030 --> 00:15:13,739
in?

273
00:15:13,820 --> 00:15:15,700
I was doing it in industrial design.

274
00:15:15,860 --> 00:15:19,200
So this is product design,
service design for manufacture.

275
00:15:19,660 --> 00:15:23,229
Throughout the undergrad, I had
experimented with different materials,

276
00:15:23,229 --> 00:15:25,449
different ways of manufacturing things.

277
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,099
And you fit the materials and
the process to the project.

278
00:15:29,130 --> 00:15:31,800
And it so happened that
something more textile based was

279
00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,060
appropriate for this project.

280
00:15:33,610 --> 00:15:36,630
And I had also created other
things based on skills that I

281
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,310
developed in that project, like
this little pendant, for example.

282
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,179
This is my mom's signature,
custard and sterling silver.

283
00:15:43,340 --> 00:15:44,270
Oh, wow.

284
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,990
So I was also able to create
something out of something most

285
00:15:47,990 --> 00:15:50,090
people have on official documents.

286
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,620
So if you don't have this letter, maybe
you have a signature in their handwriting.

287
00:15:54,829 --> 00:15:55,270
Oh, wow.

288
00:15:55,270 --> 00:15:56,230
That is so clever.

289
00:15:56,230 --> 00:16:01,359
I've never seen a signature turned
into a pendant that you can wear

290
00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:03,030
on a necklace in sterling silver.

291
00:16:03,030 --> 00:16:08,409
Like, that is such a beautiful thing
and such a, again, tactile connection to

292
00:16:08,410 --> 00:16:10,500
something that is uniquely your mother's.

293
00:16:10,610 --> 00:16:11,090
Yeah.

294
00:16:11,180 --> 00:16:14,050
And that was the wonderful
part about doing this project.

295
00:16:14,060 --> 00:16:17,449
Even from a design
undergrad, I was able to.

296
00:16:17,820 --> 00:16:19,120
Connect it back to grief.

297
00:16:19,270 --> 00:16:22,840
And so I can see that there's a
pattern developing, even though you

298
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:28,340
were in design, that there did seem
to be a gravitation towards, would

299
00:16:28,340 --> 00:16:31,360
you say you were working through
your grief through each of these

300
00:16:31,380 --> 00:16:32,829
particular projects that you were doing?

301
00:16:33,310 --> 00:16:38,010
Especially in that last year,
I was working through My grief.

302
00:16:38,210 --> 00:16:42,140
Previously in other projects,
I think I was sort of skirting

303
00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:46,470
around it where I participated in
this design for dementia studio.

304
00:16:46,580 --> 00:16:51,869
How can we design to make people's lives
easier or improve them with dementia?

305
00:16:52,050 --> 00:16:56,740
I chose a particular dementia type that is
similar to the disease my mom had when she

306
00:16:56,750 --> 00:17:03,330
died down to product design for preventing
SIDS in kids, exploring how we may create

307
00:17:03,330 --> 00:17:05,200
something that monitors them remotely.

308
00:17:05,589 --> 00:17:06,630
So it all kind of.

309
00:17:06,815 --> 00:17:12,305
trickled in over the years with this
death related projects, and finally it

310
00:17:12,305 --> 00:17:13,865
felt like this just needed to happen.

311
00:17:13,984 --> 00:17:18,035
It is interesting how the world
started to kind of, you know,

312
00:17:18,124 --> 00:17:19,465
put you on a certain path.

313
00:17:19,515 --> 00:17:21,554
And just something that you
mentioned there that I think

314
00:17:21,555 --> 00:17:24,740
that is really something that
we need to acknowledge more.

315
00:17:24,740 --> 00:17:28,780
And that was, you just mentioned that
your mother had dementia, but it was

316
00:17:28,780 --> 00:17:30,850
the type of dementia that she had.

317
00:17:31,219 --> 00:17:36,110
And I think that so many times when
we talk about dementia, we put it as a

318
00:17:36,139 --> 00:17:41,389
big, broad blanket over the disease, but
there's so many different types of it.

319
00:17:41,389 --> 00:17:42,509
And it depends on what you're.

320
00:17:43,090 --> 00:17:44,670
particular diagnosis is.

321
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,150
So, tell me, where did
you lead from there?

322
00:17:48,150 --> 00:17:52,710
So, you've worked on these projects, you
know that there's a pattern developing,

323
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:53,729
and then what,

324
00:17:53,729 --> 00:17:54,239
Chloe?

325
00:17:54,559 --> 00:17:56,299
And then I couldn't
stop thinking about it.

326
00:17:57,099 --> 00:18:01,720
I couldn't stop thinking about all the
research I had done, that all good PhDs

327
00:18:01,770 --> 00:18:07,675
kind of start with this Anger, this
passion, this desire to change something.

328
00:18:07,705 --> 00:18:10,595
And that started for me
with the funeral industry.

329
00:18:10,645 --> 00:18:14,275
The pricing right down to the
options that people have, and it

330
00:18:14,275 --> 00:18:16,194
all seems very limited in scope.

331
00:18:16,745 --> 00:18:21,045
We're only just now seeing lots of
diversity and variety coming out,

332
00:18:21,115 --> 00:18:23,479
and I think it happens very slowly.

333
00:18:23,670 --> 00:18:25,000
at a glacial pace.

334
00:18:25,190 --> 00:18:26,010
Kickstart that.

335
00:18:26,420 --> 00:18:28,000
Okay, so set the scene.

336
00:18:28,060 --> 00:18:29,920
What period are we talking about?

337
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:35,539
What sort of things were you seeing
that were making you feel this way?

338
00:18:35,659 --> 00:18:36,490
Talk me through it.

339
00:18:37,190 --> 00:18:44,930
I was seeing lots of costs being added
on that I wasn't confident were necessary

340
00:18:44,930 --> 00:18:49,620
to the process because I feel like
people oftentimes are dealing with a lot.

341
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,050
And they're not able to
customise the experience as

342
00:18:53,050 --> 00:18:54,850
much to what their family needs.

343
00:18:55,010 --> 00:19:00,970
So I really think there are ways
to manage costs that should be more

344
00:19:00,990 --> 00:19:02,920
clearly prominent for families.

345
00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:06,489
That's really important because
you want to give your loved one

346
00:19:06,639 --> 00:19:08,980
the best send off that you can.

347
00:19:09,100 --> 00:19:12,350
And that becomes this really big
pressure because the funeral is really

348
00:19:12,350 --> 00:19:17,590
the only large point in which You
have friends and family gathered,

349
00:19:17,639 --> 00:19:21,180
this is this wonderful big ceremony,
but nothing happens after that.

350
00:19:21,379 --> 00:19:24,999
So there's a lot of pressure on them
at one point to get it right for them.

351
00:19:25,230 --> 00:19:29,805
And I think we need to do more in
Um, giving options to families here.

352
00:19:30,555 --> 00:19:34,855
And you mentioned previously also
about the timeline within that period

353
00:19:34,955 --> 00:19:40,174
that there's, in relation to just
how generally a funeral is organised

354
00:19:40,205 --> 00:19:42,594
very shortly thereafter the death.

355
00:19:43,245 --> 00:19:47,065
And what sort of impacts have you
seen with that short period of

356
00:19:47,075 --> 00:19:51,375
timeline, perhaps that, and it hits
a lot of pressure that people do

357
00:19:51,385 --> 00:19:55,594
put on themselves to, like you said,
they feel it's the one occasion that

358
00:19:55,594 --> 00:19:58,625
they have to honour their loved one.

359
00:19:58,985 --> 00:20:02,075
And what have you seen
when it's done well?

360
00:20:02,620 --> 00:20:04,270
And when it's not done well.

361
00:20:04,450 --> 00:20:08,830
When it's done well, there's more
connection between each other in

362
00:20:08,830 --> 00:20:10,650
the family and friends that gather.

363
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:15,970
When it's not done well, it can
become a point of contention, which

364
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,220
options you're going to go for.

365
00:20:18,230 --> 00:20:20,730
Someone disagrees, someone
has a different point of view.

366
00:20:21,230 --> 00:20:24,110
someone has a different cultural
background, that means they

367
00:20:24,110 --> 00:20:25,700
disagree with how it's being done.

368
00:20:25,730 --> 00:20:30,840
So, when it's not done well, I think it's
all parties involved, and it's trying

369
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:37,280
to detangle the event that has happened,
your loved one dying, working through

370
00:20:37,525 --> 00:20:41,755
That feeling, all the physical symptoms
that you get, while also negotiating

371
00:20:41,755 --> 00:20:46,565
lots of documents, lots of planning,
and so that pressure really mounts up.

372
00:20:46,685 --> 00:20:50,455
And what is different to funerals
that go well is when it's planned

373
00:20:50,484 --> 00:20:54,855
beforehand, particularly by the
person who is dying, because it's much

374
00:20:54,855 --> 00:21:00,565
harder to argue with someone's last
wishes than it is against each other.

375
00:21:01,095 --> 00:21:04,485
So you can bring your family together
by making this choice for them.

376
00:21:04,655 --> 00:21:08,255
Taking this hard decision out makes it
so much easier for them to focus on each

377
00:21:08,255 --> 00:21:10,195
other and the love they had for you.

378
00:21:10,405 --> 00:21:15,345
And can I ask Chloe, did you have those
sorts of conversations with your mother

379
00:21:15,354 --> 00:21:18,275
before the disease progressed with her?

380
00:21:18,635 --> 00:21:20,635
Or was that something that you
had the opportunity to have,

381
00:21:20,635 --> 00:21:21,945
or your dad may have had?

382
00:21:22,315 --> 00:21:22,575
No.

383
00:21:23,175 --> 00:21:27,835
So she died when she was 39, and I
said the disease was like dementia?

384
00:21:28,634 --> 00:21:32,215
But it progresses rapidly, so
it's called Creutzfeldt Jakob's

385
00:21:32,225 --> 00:21:34,024
disease, or CJD for short.

386
00:21:34,514 --> 00:21:39,084
Suspected sporadic case, so 90 percent
of cases with this disease just happen,

387
00:21:39,284 --> 00:21:43,514
and the person who goes through it has
dementia like symptoms because plaques

388
00:21:43,514 --> 00:21:48,705
build up in the brain, and they die
within 6 to 18 months of symptoms showing.

389
00:21:48,965 --> 00:21:54,304
So there was not much opportunity after
about a month or two to really talk to

390
00:21:54,304 --> 00:21:59,595
her because She was bed bound by then,
she was already confused, and then she,

391
00:21:59,645 --> 00:22:04,285
like, eventually everything shut down,
so there was a time in this case, and

392
00:22:04,345 --> 00:22:06,005
I don't think people expect to die.

393
00:22:06,350 --> 00:22:10,010
39, 35, 39. But it does happen.

394
00:22:10,270 --> 00:22:14,780
And that's why as soon as you realize that
you want to have these deaf conversations

395
00:22:14,810 --> 00:22:20,060
or even thinking about dying, this plan
can be immensely helpful, particularly

396
00:22:20,069 --> 00:22:24,689
advanced care planning in addition to
making a will, stating your wishes for

397
00:22:24,690 --> 00:22:26,879
a funeral, bequeathal of belongings.

398
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,580
How do you want your care to look like?

399
00:22:28,580 --> 00:22:31,890
Because it can spring up out of
nowhere and you might not even

400
00:22:31,890 --> 00:22:33,885
be able to Advocate for yourself.

401
00:22:34,014 --> 00:22:38,995
Yeah, so advanced care planning is
really about what care you would like.

402
00:22:39,024 --> 00:22:44,794
So let's talk about how you go from, you
know, you've done your dementia design

403
00:22:44,804 --> 00:22:50,885
project and then you've moved into your
scarf and your jewellery and then you go.

404
00:22:51,615 --> 00:22:56,465
Okay, I'm going to look at doing a
PhD. Tell me about that moment, Chloe.

405
00:22:56,955 --> 00:23:01,885
I felt like the work in my undergrad
wasn't done because it was passive,

406
00:23:01,885 --> 00:23:03,725
I touched like a tiny part of it.

407
00:23:04,335 --> 00:23:08,265
And I also, at the same time,
realised that, wait a second,

408
00:23:08,475 --> 00:23:10,374
I'm not finished grieving.

409
00:23:10,615 --> 00:23:14,195
I'm going to have this for the rest of
my life, I'm going to think about this.

410
00:23:14,575 --> 00:23:18,045
What are some things that I
hadn't done in my own grief?

411
00:23:18,175 --> 00:23:21,145
And it was looking at
some of the physical.

412
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,040
belongings that were left behind.

413
00:23:23,110 --> 00:23:25,740
I talked about that box that
gets tucked away in the corner.

414
00:23:26,100 --> 00:23:31,490
It was still tucked away until I started
my PhD and started to really unpack that.

415
00:23:31,970 --> 00:23:38,419
So I've always liked research and really
teasing apart difficult projects and

416
00:23:39,095 --> 00:23:43,615
Problems, quote unquote problems, and
looking at the relationships involved,

417
00:23:43,635 --> 00:23:48,295
whether the social factors involved, or
the environmental factors, how much there

418
00:23:48,305 --> 00:23:53,605
is in death needs way more people and
designers than just myself to look at.

419
00:23:53,755 --> 00:23:57,355
The PhD is the first step in
developing my own creative

420
00:23:57,355 --> 00:24:00,255
practice in a grief death space.

421
00:24:00,590 --> 00:24:04,050
And then how do I branch it out from there
is part of the question I hope to answer.

422
00:24:04,770 --> 00:24:06,540
And what have you discovered so far?

423
00:24:06,610 --> 00:24:11,850
How far along are you on your PhD? Talk
me through where you're at in relation

424
00:24:11,850 --> 00:24:13,190
to the things that you're looking at.

425
00:24:13,499 --> 00:24:16,700
I'm fascinated about what you're studying,
so talk me through it all, Chloe.

426
00:24:16,799 --> 00:24:21,940
So I've done my first milestone, so over
a year in, and this is all the theoretical

427
00:24:21,950 --> 00:24:28,780
foundational base for your PhD. And from
here on out, in between this first and.

428
00:24:29,060 --> 00:24:33,489
second to third year, I'm going to engage
in a series of creative practice projects

429
00:24:33,669 --> 00:24:36,930
to explore different aspects of grief.

430
00:24:37,450 --> 00:24:42,020
So the materiality, for
example, new materialism is a

431
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:44,250
relatively new academic term.

432
00:24:44,389 --> 00:24:49,500
Founded a sensitive design that engages
with death in a sensitive manner.

433
00:24:49,980 --> 00:24:51,400
It's very open ended.

434
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,040
There aren't many articles in
it, so I'm hoping to contribute.

435
00:24:54,555 --> 00:24:55,775
scholastically there.

436
00:24:56,534 --> 00:25:02,445
From a creative practice standpoint,
I hope to create different objects

437
00:25:02,564 --> 00:25:05,364
through different aspects of the
journey that someone is going

438
00:25:05,364 --> 00:25:06,544
through when a person dies.

439
00:25:06,685 --> 00:25:09,925
So before they die, what
is required in that space?

440
00:25:10,114 --> 00:25:13,274
How can creative practice
help people engage more here?

441
00:25:13,944 --> 00:25:17,509
When someone is dying, we
talked about the memento mori.

442
00:25:17,730 --> 00:25:22,970
Is there some kind of thing that creative
practice can design that enables you to

443
00:25:23,260 --> 00:25:25,389
think about these things at that time?

444
00:25:25,550 --> 00:25:29,350
Because it's not everyone's first
thought, how do I memorialize this person?

445
00:25:29,570 --> 00:25:35,050
Oftentimes because I think the
reality of the death is too close

446
00:25:35,199 --> 00:25:36,459
to even think about anything else.

447
00:25:36,770 --> 00:25:38,899
But once the body is gone, it's gone.

448
00:25:38,949 --> 00:25:43,320
So how can we encourage people
at these times to really prepare

449
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:44,909
themselves for their grief?

450
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,120
And afterwards, there's not
much support with grief.

451
00:25:48,129 --> 00:25:49,379
So we have this funeral.

452
00:25:49,379 --> 00:25:52,780
It's this big, lovely event in
which your friends and family

453
00:25:52,780 --> 00:25:57,315
gather, you show support, and you
might experience that support in

454
00:25:57,325 --> 00:25:59,155
a few weeks or months after that.

455
00:25:59,165 --> 00:26:04,375
However, in contemporary Western cultures,
we don't get anything else after that.

456
00:26:04,485 --> 00:26:09,655
So the second year of grieving, it
tends to be worse than the first year.

457
00:26:09,945 --> 00:26:12,334
It's when everything is settled
down, you have a routine.

458
00:26:12,745 --> 00:26:13,964
Oh my gosh, this person has died.

459
00:26:13,995 --> 00:26:15,544
It all comes rushing in.

460
00:26:15,755 --> 00:26:20,985
So we need to find ways to help people
engage with their grief after, more than

461
00:26:20,985 --> 00:26:26,284
just memorialization at the time of, you
know, a funeral or around the deceased.

462
00:26:26,394 --> 00:26:29,644
And it's interesting you say that
because, you know, so often people,

463
00:26:29,725 --> 00:26:32,374
and you've, I think you've already
mentioned the terms, you know, move

464
00:26:32,374 --> 00:26:37,225
on, get on with life, those sorts of
things, you know, you've been given the

465
00:26:37,235 --> 00:26:41,344
required amount of grieving time and
now it's just time, aren't you over it?

466
00:26:41,604 --> 00:26:44,644
You know, we have heard that
colloquial kind of, you know,

467
00:26:44,644 --> 00:26:46,324
terms used all over and over.

468
00:26:46,844 --> 00:26:50,264
And so it's interesting that
you're actually acknowledging that.

469
00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:53,149
The second year can be
sometimes the hardest.

470
00:26:53,530 --> 00:26:57,420
So that I find really fascinating and
just two things that would be great for

471
00:26:57,420 --> 00:27:02,099
you to explain is I missed that term
that you said that it's just a new term

472
00:27:02,100 --> 00:27:07,080
that that is scholars are using memorial,
immoralization or what was the term?

473
00:27:07,834 --> 00:27:08,985
Was it thanatosensitive?

474
00:27:09,384 --> 00:27:11,274
Or Yeah, that could be it.

475
00:27:11,334 --> 00:27:12,254
New materialism?

476
00:27:12,455 --> 00:27:13,074
Could you explain

477
00:27:13,074 --> 00:27:13,945
both of those for us?

478
00:27:15,495 --> 00:27:16,344
No problem.

479
00:27:16,624 --> 00:27:21,624
So, I'm still looking into this concept,
but new materialism really acknowledges

480
00:27:21,714 --> 00:27:25,864
consumeristic Western cultures and
our relationships with objects.

481
00:27:26,405 --> 00:27:30,145
Because it's quite different in other
cultures, because with the rise of

482
00:27:30,185 --> 00:27:36,604
industrialization and plastics, we tend
to have this very use and throw out.

483
00:27:36,845 --> 00:27:41,014
attitude towards them instead of
things that we make memories with.

484
00:27:41,075 --> 00:27:44,555
And I think addressing that, particularly
from a grief standpoint, would be

485
00:27:44,555 --> 00:27:47,465
very helpful because there are lots
of things that someone leaves behind.

486
00:27:48,125 --> 00:27:52,264
So how can we help people celebrate
these objects as reminders of

487
00:27:52,314 --> 00:27:56,995
their loved ones and as pieces that
you can continuously engage with?

488
00:27:57,135 --> 00:28:04,060
And thanatosensitive design is thanatos,
so death, and sensitive design.

489
00:28:05,470 --> 00:28:08,670
It's hard to explain because it's
quite a new concept and the terms

490
00:28:08,670 --> 00:28:10,680
are still kind of fluid and changing.

491
00:28:11,409 --> 00:28:16,119
In my project, thanatosensitive
design is any design that engages

492
00:28:16,159 --> 00:28:17,449
with the death care space.

493
00:28:17,449 --> 00:28:21,040
So any piece of design that you create
that will interface with someone.

494
00:28:21,295 --> 00:28:23,665
Dying, dead, or grieving.

495
00:28:23,785 --> 00:28:29,305
I think when this term first arose,
it was primarily in a digital setting.

496
00:28:29,585 --> 00:28:33,464
So there's lots of research being done
about digital death, what happens to

497
00:28:33,464 --> 00:28:38,244
your data and information online, where
does it go, how do people access this,

498
00:28:38,295 --> 00:28:43,094
however I'm trying to kind of tease
out that term and expand it into the

499
00:28:43,374 --> 00:28:46,605
materialism, physical aspects as well.

500
00:28:46,615 --> 00:28:46,740
Thanks a lot.

501
00:28:47,110 --> 00:28:52,470
And do you think that because we have
actually moved away from being, you know,

502
00:28:52,740 --> 00:28:57,019
I'm just thinking the reference that you
made to the patchwork quilt, the fact

503
00:28:57,020 --> 00:29:02,240
that over time, you know, we've seen
a move away from especially handcrafts

504
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,640
and crafts where You know, women would
be associated with CWA and there'd be

505
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,270
many tactile handcrafts and momenta.

506
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:16,290
Like, I think of my grandmother, my great
grandmother, I have pieces of lace, I

507
00:29:16,290 --> 00:29:21,009
have quilts, I have embroidery, I have
all of these things that they have

508
00:29:21,009 --> 00:29:25,230
physically made over a period of time
that they have put their love into that.

509
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,680
I really hadn't thought of it
now, but they are memento mori

510
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:30,420
of those particular people.

511
00:29:30,635 --> 00:29:31,605
who make up me.

512
00:29:32,145 --> 00:29:38,055
And so we've really moved away from
that sort of where women are doing

513
00:29:38,055 --> 00:29:40,195
those sort of handcrafts nowadays.

514
00:29:40,734 --> 00:29:45,604
So we have become more commercialized
and more, you know, consumerized or more,

515
00:29:45,614 --> 00:29:47,635
you know, you know what I mean, Chloe?

516
00:29:48,665 --> 00:29:54,705
We buy more crap, you know, we make less,
we buy more, we throw lots more out.

517
00:29:55,145 --> 00:29:57,664
And so how do you find that connection?

518
00:29:57,875 --> 00:29:59,345
in this generation now.

519
00:29:59,395 --> 00:30:03,305
Like I find that fascinating when we
don't have people who are making things.

520
00:30:03,415 --> 00:30:08,395
Yeah, so there has been a drop off with
that craft aspect, that creativity,

521
00:30:08,414 --> 00:30:10,994
that love and care into an object.

522
00:30:11,075 --> 00:30:15,114
So currently I've only been
looking at things that have a

523
00:30:15,114 --> 00:30:16,774
personal touch from the deceased.

524
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,600
There's those things we can
always memorialise into different

525
00:30:20,610 --> 00:30:25,100
ways, like that letter and her
writing, for example, into a scarf.

526
00:30:25,260 --> 00:30:29,179
So there's ways to transform them,
impose them onto other things, create

527
00:30:29,179 --> 00:30:32,260
this mix of separate grief objects.

528
00:30:32,429 --> 00:30:37,110
Maybe it's connecting family members
together, deceased family members

529
00:30:37,110 --> 00:30:39,970
through this one object that you combine.

530
00:30:39,980 --> 00:30:44,610
So it's not limited to any
material form necessarily.

531
00:30:44,620 --> 00:30:46,880
It's about how we work through it.

532
00:30:47,425 --> 00:30:51,115
How we situate it in our life,
for it to make sense in our life,

533
00:30:51,175 --> 00:30:52,895
but also to remind us of them.

534
00:30:53,075 --> 00:30:57,695
I find it fascinating because you're
coming up with really creative and

535
00:30:57,695 --> 00:31:02,985
contemporary ways, like to see that
beautiful design of that pendant

536
00:31:02,995 --> 00:31:04,374
with your mother's signature.

537
00:31:05,165 --> 00:31:10,215
That is just such a beautiful way in which
to actually remember her, but it's just

538
00:31:10,215 --> 00:31:12,685
a beautiful piece of jewellery as well.

539
00:31:12,895 --> 00:31:17,564
Yeah, I mean, engraving is not like
a super new concept, even engraving

540
00:31:17,565 --> 00:31:21,594
signatures, but I was working with
contemporary technology, so 3D

541
00:31:21,685 --> 00:31:25,985
printing and how do we create an object
from that, and turning it into this

542
00:31:25,985 --> 00:31:29,965
necklace was a way of celebrating
the new technological advances we

543
00:31:29,965 --> 00:31:31,615
make and how they can contribute.

544
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,810
in a really meaningful way
with other types of materials.

545
00:31:35,060 --> 00:31:35,740
I don't know if that made sense.

546
00:31:36,340 --> 00:31:37,470
No, it totally does.

547
00:31:37,470 --> 00:31:41,920
And some other things that I'd love
for you to sort of comment on and what

548
00:31:41,930 --> 00:31:46,939
your experience has been is that I
recently attended a conference up in

549
00:31:46,939 --> 00:31:52,860
Sydney in relation to a carers expo,
and they were showing, you know, the

550
00:31:52,860 --> 00:31:58,200
QR code on the gravestone that actually
can then link you to a memorial page.

551
00:31:58,530 --> 00:32:02,200
So that's a very conventional way in
which we're seeing the use of technology

552
00:32:02,250 --> 00:32:04,280
being used to memorialise people.

553
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,089
What other things have you
seen that perhaps aren't sort

554
00:32:07,089 --> 00:32:08,560
of in the mainstream as yet?

555
00:32:08,730 --> 00:32:09,230
Yes.

556
00:32:09,260 --> 00:32:14,989
So I've seen, I've more looked
at physical objects rather than

557
00:32:15,099 --> 00:32:16,289
connecting with the digital.

558
00:32:16,519 --> 00:32:22,239
But one of them is this theoretical
project about having little ritual

559
00:32:22,239 --> 00:32:26,649
objects in the home space that helped
represent someone who had died.

560
00:32:27,125 --> 00:32:30,615
So, they created these objects
based on prompts that they have.

561
00:32:31,085 --> 00:32:35,795
you know, uncovered on the internet,
and one of them was this person missing

562
00:32:35,795 --> 00:32:38,705
a stubble of her deceased fiancé.

563
00:32:38,945 --> 00:32:42,145
She created this little brush
that had little spikes of hair

564
00:32:42,235 --> 00:32:44,105
that you could rub on your face.

565
00:32:44,335 --> 00:32:49,495
They had this concept where
they plaster death masks.

566
00:32:49,724 --> 00:32:54,265
So this person created a concept where
half of the deceased face was casted,

567
00:32:54,885 --> 00:32:59,825
and they were able to put this on
their at night, just to have that.

568
00:33:00,405 --> 00:33:01,545
Oh, wow.

569
00:33:01,645 --> 00:33:03,575
Reminder that they were there.

570
00:33:03,705 --> 00:33:09,234
And so it's this interesting way
of looking at these objects and

571
00:33:09,714 --> 00:33:12,444
even this perfume humidifier.

572
00:33:13,125 --> 00:33:16,645
Put cologne or perfume from
someone who had died in it, and

573
00:33:16,645 --> 00:33:18,725
it just illuminates the space.

574
00:33:18,735 --> 00:33:22,745
So you feel like ghosts of them in
your house, because you go from having

575
00:33:22,745 --> 00:33:25,355
that person in your space to nothing.

576
00:33:25,585 --> 00:33:30,224
And so I think these little reminders
are great for this transition.

577
00:33:30,710 --> 00:33:31,270
In grief.

578
00:33:31,370 --> 00:33:31,630
That's

579
00:33:31,630 --> 00:33:32,470
really beautiful.

580
00:33:32,490 --> 00:33:36,790
And it's such a new way in which
to actually, I suppose, memorialize

581
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,460
someone, but I don't know.

582
00:33:38,750 --> 00:33:42,390
I wouldn't say fill a gap, but it
is something to help you, isn't it?

583
00:33:42,500 --> 00:33:47,459
A tool in which you can actually bring out
of your toolbox when you are feeling bad.

584
00:33:47,459 --> 00:33:50,990
That's the thing that, you know, uses
your, whether it's, you know, scruffing

585
00:33:50,990 --> 00:33:54,490
yourself on the face and giving yourself,
you know, shaver's rash or, you know,

586
00:33:54,530 --> 00:33:56,820
whatever it be, but it's whatever.

587
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,520
And I love the fact that, you know, it's
also looking at all of the senses, so

588
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,900
it's looking at the touch, it's looking
at the smell that evokes those memories.

589
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:09,220
I think that's a really beautiful
way in which to go because so much

590
00:34:09,220 --> 00:34:14,030
of our experience with our loved
ones is not just visual, it's

591
00:34:14,050 --> 00:34:15,599
really all encompassing, isn't it?

592
00:34:15,915 --> 00:34:16,565
It is.

593
00:34:16,655 --> 00:34:22,175
And it's great that we are looking
into the digital aspects, but I don't

594
00:34:22,175 --> 00:34:26,865
want to do that instead of the physical
aspects of grief and memorialization.

595
00:34:26,894 --> 00:34:30,325
I think both are quite
important to explore.

596
00:34:30,474 --> 00:34:35,135
The senses has this way of really
taking you back to a time and place.

597
00:34:35,345 --> 00:34:36,235
that I think is priceless.

598
00:34:36,475 --> 00:34:40,905
And, you know, when you were talking
about how you feel someone's loss when

599
00:34:40,905 --> 00:34:44,995
they're no longer there, the way in
which I felt it quite acutely, and

600
00:34:45,004 --> 00:34:47,195
it surprised me, was not my father.

601
00:34:47,345 --> 00:34:51,374
When he died, weirdly enough,
it was actually our cat.

602
00:34:51,625 --> 00:34:55,985
Because you just don't realize how
much they're around you all the time.

603
00:34:55,985 --> 00:34:58,155
And it was just their presence, so.

604
00:34:59,025 --> 00:35:03,635
You know, I could even just think that the
versatility of also having cuddle animals

605
00:35:03,655 --> 00:35:05,585
for, you know, cats and things like that.

606
00:35:05,585 --> 00:35:10,094
I can see that tactile application as
well for when we lose pets, not just when

607
00:35:10,094 --> 00:35:12,575
we lose humans, loved ones, you know.

608
00:35:12,825 --> 00:35:13,885
Absolutely.

609
00:35:13,935 --> 00:35:18,045
I have seen some wonderful
creative projects that are kind of

610
00:35:18,045 --> 00:35:19,755
popping up here and there where.

611
00:35:20,180 --> 00:35:26,160
People send in fur from their
pets, and they get felted into

612
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,290
a mini likeness of that pet.

613
00:35:28,570 --> 00:35:33,770
But it's in the fur, and so that
connection to the body is quite

614
00:35:33,810 --> 00:35:36,600
intrinsic to the experience.

615
00:35:36,915 --> 00:35:40,965
Yeah, and well, it's nothing that new
really when you think of taxidermy, it's

616
00:35:40,995 --> 00:35:46,474
been done for, you know, eons, but to
actually sort of make a creature in the

617
00:35:46,475 --> 00:35:50,795
likeness from the fur is a different way
in which to actually look at it, isn't it?

618
00:35:51,135 --> 00:35:51,915
Absolutely.

619
00:35:52,034 --> 00:35:58,540
They do seem quite similar, but again,
it's the viability of sending, um, Remains

620
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,830
to a specialist who are hard to find
and I suppose that's the case for all

621
00:36:02,830 --> 00:36:07,810
of these niche creatives, but there's
more than one way to memorialize someone

622
00:36:07,829 --> 00:36:13,340
or a pet, even if it's very similar to
another, maybe the mini likeness suits.

623
00:36:14,005 --> 00:36:17,035
A certain pad or it
suits your home better.

624
00:36:17,825 --> 00:36:19,485
It just depends on the person.

625
00:36:20,265 --> 00:36:25,135
What I love about it is that it seems to
be that everyone's thinking, certainly

626
00:36:25,135 --> 00:36:29,515
where the space that you're working in
the moment, Chloe, it is limitless what

627
00:36:29,515 --> 00:36:34,394
we can do and the way in which we can use
sort of almost technology and textiles.

628
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:39,230
To actually really kind of provide a
support for someone when we are grieving,

629
00:36:39,310 --> 00:36:41,350
you know, in so many different ways.

630
00:36:41,700 --> 00:36:44,510
What is one way that you've
gone, wow, that's amazing?

631
00:36:45,865 --> 00:36:47,305
Put you on the spot now, haven't I?

632
00:36:47,595 --> 00:36:50,005
There's gotta be one that you've
gone, oh gee, that's good.

633
00:36:50,195 --> 00:36:51,725
In combination with technology?

634
00:36:52,055 --> 00:36:54,085
Or just any particular one?

635
00:36:54,085 --> 00:36:59,134
Because I, I think the Death Mask one and
the Stubble, that has to be my favourite.

636
00:36:59,235 --> 00:37:01,014
Yeah, I think that's pretty amazing.

637
00:37:01,014 --> 00:37:03,975
I tend to agree with you on
that one, without a doubt.

638
00:37:03,975 --> 00:37:08,965
Like, I find the Death Mask, to be able
to place that on the pillow next to you?

639
00:37:09,105 --> 00:37:12,555
Like, I can't believe that someone
had that foresight to do that.

640
00:37:12,595 --> 00:37:17,085
Because obviously, this involves a
lot of planning before someone's died.

641
00:37:17,095 --> 00:37:17,115
It

642
00:37:17,445 --> 00:37:22,754
does, and the artist that created
this did create a speculative

643
00:37:22,754 --> 00:37:26,625
piece, so that means that it's not
a product that was actually done.

644
00:37:26,905 --> 00:37:30,775
Because there's lots of ethical questions
we need to consider before approaching

645
00:37:30,795 --> 00:37:32,685
someone for a project like this.

646
00:37:32,725 --> 00:37:36,925
But it gives ideas and inspiration
for people going forward.

647
00:37:37,025 --> 00:37:39,935
And it does, it would
require a lot of forethought.

648
00:37:40,125 --> 00:37:44,055
And I've seen processes of getting
a death mask done, and it does

649
00:37:44,074 --> 00:37:45,665
not look super comfortable.

650
00:37:45,965 --> 00:37:47,785
Once you do it, you have a copy.

651
00:37:47,945 --> 00:37:50,045
You have something where you
can create multiple copies.

652
00:37:50,115 --> 00:37:52,405
And so yeah, that
forethought is quite rare.

653
00:37:52,615 --> 00:37:55,675
Yeah, well, you know, if
it can happen to Napoleon.

654
00:37:56,060 --> 00:37:58,860
You know, that was quite some
time ago, and we have advanced.

655
00:37:59,950 --> 00:38:04,239
Now tell me, what is it like, for
you, what is it that you would like

656
00:38:04,250 --> 00:38:08,330
to see, sort of, with memorialization
and our death care industry?

657
00:38:08,330 --> 00:38:11,200
What are you liking to see
over the next five years?

658
00:38:11,259 --> 00:38:12,560
What would you like to see develop?

659
00:38:12,770 --> 00:38:14,660
There are so many things I'd like to see.

660
00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:16,150
We've got time, Chloe.

661
00:38:16,695 --> 00:38:17,905
Give us your top five.

662
00:38:18,045 --> 00:38:22,435
People feeling more comfortable
asking for something more

663
00:38:22,435 --> 00:38:24,025
outlandish for their funeral.

664
00:38:24,305 --> 00:38:26,715
So if you're doing your own
funeral planning, go big.

665
00:38:27,370 --> 00:38:32,260
A lot of people say, I don't care, just
put me in the ground, I don't mind.

666
00:38:32,450 --> 00:38:34,970
That makes it so much
harder for your loved ones.

667
00:38:35,170 --> 00:38:40,280
Embrace the thought a little bit more
and explore what feels right for you.

668
00:38:40,469 --> 00:38:44,799
There are lots of different ways that
you can be interred and in the future I

669
00:38:44,799 --> 00:38:50,560
hope to see many more ways, particularly
acclimation and natural burials.

670
00:38:50,950 --> 00:38:54,919
Would love them to be much more
popular and accepted by communities.

671
00:38:55,170 --> 00:38:58,270
No, I think that they're really
interesting developments.

672
00:38:58,270 --> 00:39:03,710
We've had Luke Cripps on here talking
about acclimation and we're certainly

673
00:39:03,740 --> 00:39:07,989
open to having discussions about more
about natural burials and natural burial

674
00:39:07,989 --> 00:39:11,970
grounds within Australia and then more
of them are opening up as time goes on.

675
00:39:12,589 --> 00:39:16,080
One thing that does come to mind
that you mentioned the word ethics.

676
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,770
That is such a realm that
you have to deal with.

677
00:39:19,860 --> 00:39:23,960
Whereas like the normal person, if they
want to do something, they can perhaps

678
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:28,770
actually, you know, push the boundaries a
little bit more because it's themselves.

679
00:39:29,180 --> 00:39:33,909
But you, Chloe, as Death Scholar,
you have a different set of rules

680
00:39:33,910 --> 00:39:35,299
that you have to play by, don't you?

681
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:37,130
Absolutely.

682
00:39:37,260 --> 00:39:41,800
Can you talk us through that whole,
where, how, it sounds like a minefield,

683
00:39:41,830 --> 00:39:44,060
ethics and the death scholar space.

684
00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:45,260
Absolutely.

685
00:39:45,330 --> 00:39:48,900
It is a minefield and it's not something
that people regularly talk about,

686
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,340
particularly from a design perspective.

687
00:39:51,609 --> 00:39:57,730
So I'm not coming at this with a
background in psychology or medicine.

688
00:39:58,010 --> 00:39:58,850
or lore.

689
00:39:58,900 --> 00:40:03,780
I need to really frame my
project quite succinctly.

690
00:40:03,910 --> 00:40:08,700
And it does limit the creative
outputs that I am able to

691
00:40:08,700 --> 00:40:10,790
do in a research setting.

692
00:40:11,259 --> 00:40:14,180
And these checks and balances
are quite important so that

693
00:40:14,190 --> 00:40:19,399
nobody is traumatized, no one is
psychologically damaged from this.

694
00:40:19,469 --> 00:40:25,375
It needs to really respect the
participants involved, even in

695
00:40:25,375 --> 00:40:27,315
just interviewing other people.

696
00:40:27,325 --> 00:40:32,255
So ethics in a research capacity
is incredibly important.

697
00:40:32,314 --> 00:40:36,394
And there are lots of things that
I need to consider when writing

698
00:40:36,394 --> 00:40:38,684
up my application and editing it.

699
00:40:38,685 --> 00:40:39,159
So.

700
00:40:39,610 --> 00:40:41,980
Thinking about who is affected?

701
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,280
How can I minimize this?

702
00:40:44,290 --> 00:40:46,060
Is it worth minimizing this?

703
00:40:46,070 --> 00:40:47,710
Is it worth doing it in the first place?

704
00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:51,699
So really putting what I'm trying
to explore through a rigorous

705
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:54,269
test, which can be quite trying.

706
00:40:54,269 --> 00:40:57,260
I'm sure anyone that has had
to do an ethics application

707
00:40:57,699 --> 00:40:59,230
knows that it's a long process.

708
00:41:00,210 --> 00:41:01,980
It's important to do.

709
00:41:02,170 --> 00:41:06,010
However, there are lots of
companies and businesses that

710
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:07,750
don't need to go through this.

711
00:41:07,990 --> 00:41:10,180
Intense process to this standard.

712
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:15,910
And we're seeing that a bit with
newer deaf and technology projects.

713
00:41:16,119 --> 00:41:21,470
So, for example, there was this project
about recording a person's voice and

714
00:41:21,470 --> 00:41:25,940
going through their social media,
like, digital history to recreate them.

715
00:41:25,989 --> 00:41:29,539
And I think that's actually been put
in practice with real life people.

716
00:41:30,045 --> 00:41:32,705
That should never have
happened, in my opinion.

717
00:41:32,705 --> 00:41:36,565
That should have been thoroughly
checked and vetted by an external

718
00:41:36,565 --> 00:41:40,955
institution or oversight body
because we are altering the course of

719
00:41:40,964 --> 00:41:43,775
someone's grief and grief is for life.

720
00:41:43,964 --> 00:41:48,184
So I think it's very important to consider
how you're going to affect someone else.

721
00:41:48,655 --> 00:41:53,255
So ethics, while tricky and long
and rigorous, very important

722
00:41:53,265 --> 00:41:57,414
in making sure that we are not
making this worse for someone and

723
00:41:57,414 --> 00:41:58,915
we are gaining valuable insight.

724
00:41:59,445 --> 00:42:04,164
I think that example that you use
is a fantastic example of where,

725
00:42:04,564 --> 00:42:06,895
how fast technology is developing.

726
00:42:07,020 --> 00:42:11,000
and how quickly we can access
these digital footprints that we

727
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,380
can leave or we do leave behind.

728
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:18,080
And I think it also brings up the
point of what we can do in relation

729
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,640
to controlling our own lives and
our own profiles is making those.

730
00:42:23,025 --> 00:42:27,415
Decisions while we can about how
we want those digital footprints to

731
00:42:27,415 --> 00:42:29,455
be used when we're no longer here.

732
00:42:29,455 --> 00:42:32,044
I think that they're definitely
conversations that people need to

733
00:42:32,045 --> 00:42:36,994
have when you are aware that your
social media is out there forever,

734
00:42:37,155 --> 00:42:41,485
unless you make a decision to either
have it memorialized or shut down.

735
00:42:41,925 --> 00:42:42,835
Absolutely.

736
00:42:43,220 --> 00:42:47,090
I think part of that comes down
to, even with all the objects that

737
00:42:47,090 --> 00:42:49,300
you leave behind, is curation.

738
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,760
But no matter how much you control,
you never know what you're leaving

739
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:54,650
behind means to someone else.

740
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,480
So if you get rid of something that
you didn't think was significant,

741
00:42:57,649 --> 00:43:00,930
but it was to someone who loved you,
that's taking it away from them.

742
00:43:00,930 --> 00:43:03,760
So it's, it's a really tricky
space to kind of manage that.

743
00:43:03,860 --> 00:43:09,240
But I think the best thing for
digital memorialization is Passwords,

744
00:43:09,310 --> 00:43:12,900
who gets access to your account,
working through all of that.

745
00:43:12,990 --> 00:43:17,240
I mean, all of these conversations about
digital makes me think about autonomy.

746
00:43:17,540 --> 00:43:19,980
Like, you don't have any
control over it anymore.

747
00:43:20,230 --> 00:43:26,040
And newer technology, as you said, just
keeps shooting forward without any kind of

748
00:43:26,230 --> 00:43:33,620
reconsideration of why we're doing it, and
can end up doing things like impersonating

749
00:43:33,629 --> 00:43:35,320
the deceased just through their voice.

750
00:43:35,705 --> 00:43:37,265
making them say other things.

751
00:43:37,305 --> 00:43:42,905
It's this weird ghost alter gas situation
that we are left with afterwards because

752
00:43:42,905 --> 00:43:44,814
it's not authentic, in my opinion.

753
00:43:45,635 --> 00:43:47,824
Well, there's no one behind it, really.

754
00:43:47,824 --> 00:43:49,865
It's just a voice code, isn't it, really?

755
00:43:49,925 --> 00:43:50,775
That's an imprint.

756
00:43:51,274 --> 00:43:52,384
It's not a real human.

757
00:43:52,605 --> 00:43:56,164
Something that, Matt, you just brought up
then that made me think of, you know, what

758
00:43:56,164 --> 00:44:01,904
we decide to leave behind because what I
find that has been the most significant

759
00:44:01,934 --> 00:44:07,240
and heartfelt things from the loved ones
that have died, that belong, you know,

760
00:44:07,290 --> 00:44:10,520
my loved ones, is really weird things.

761
00:44:10,590 --> 00:44:17,350
Like, I have a pair of glasses that my
father in law lost in the water and I

762
00:44:17,429 --> 00:44:21,000
found them a week later, you know, in
the same spot where he dropped them.

763
00:44:21,625 --> 00:44:25,145
But that was the one thing that
I said, look, do you mind if I

764
00:44:25,155 --> 00:44:26,705
have the glasses when he died?

765
00:44:26,705 --> 00:44:29,015
Because that was a story
associated with it.

766
00:44:29,445 --> 00:44:35,125
And likewise, you know, my father's
binoculars that he taught me how to,

767
00:44:35,235 --> 00:44:39,434
you know, look at the birds diving
and see where fish were to go fishing.

768
00:44:39,434 --> 00:44:44,385
You know, that's what I have, you know,
they're all crusty and bit sandy and no

769
00:44:44,385 --> 00:44:46,465
longer work, but they're the things that.

770
00:44:46,950 --> 00:44:48,070
are dear to me.

771
00:44:48,090 --> 00:44:53,140
And do you find when you've been doing the
research that they always have a story?

772
00:44:53,170 --> 00:44:55,560
The things that are significant to people?

773
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,289
In what I have seen, that is the
case for myself in particular.

774
00:45:00,390 --> 00:45:03,390
It's always the things you don't expect.

775
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:07,339
It depends on how you associate
the object with that person.

776
00:45:07,369 --> 00:45:13,395
So my mum had this Really big
nacho chip bowl with a little dip

777
00:45:13,395 --> 00:45:18,125
bowl inside and I've never seen
it used But I can't get rid of it

778
00:45:18,245 --> 00:45:20,244
because it's associated with her.

779
00:45:20,564 --> 00:45:24,945
Some of the weirder objects are
her mascara I've never used it.

780
00:45:24,945 --> 00:45:25,885
I'm never gonna use it.

781
00:45:25,885 --> 00:45:29,935
I don't think it's very hygienic,
but I remember seeing her, yeah,

782
00:45:30,005 --> 00:45:32,725
seeing her put it on in the
morning before she went to work.

783
00:45:32,775 --> 00:45:33,785
Yeah, yeah

784
00:45:33,970 --> 00:45:38,760
Even smelling objects like that,
the framed photo of my mom from

785
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,659
the funeral, it's not a photo that
I would associate with her, but I

786
00:45:42,659 --> 00:45:44,370
associate with her death instead.

787
00:45:44,489 --> 00:45:47,960
Even though she is younger in
that photo, I think the connection

788
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:49,369
there is what was at the funeral.

789
00:45:49,939 --> 00:45:52,489
Because sometimes you keep those
objects and they end up becoming

790
00:45:53,180 --> 00:45:54,800
Something you cannot let go of.

791
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:56,440
It is interesting, isn't it?

792
00:45:56,610 --> 00:46:01,680
Yeah, even the nightgown that she
wore in hospice, that, never seen

793
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:03,750
her wear it, but it's there now.

794
00:46:03,799 --> 00:46:04,690
I can't get rid of it.

795
00:46:04,709 --> 00:46:05,550
It touched her body.

796
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:07,470
It was near her when she was dying.

797
00:46:07,900 --> 00:46:09,469
So it's always the strange things.

798
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,590
It's a really beautiful reminder and
we will definitely put all of this in

799
00:46:13,590 --> 00:46:18,280
the show notes so people can have a
look at what you have held dear and

800
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:23,829
you can see the nacho bowl with the dip
bowl in the middle and things like, you

801
00:46:23,829 --> 00:46:25,849
know, Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code.

802
00:46:26,389 --> 00:46:27,520
There's a cap there.

803
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,279
Lots of old school photos
before everyone went digital.

804
00:46:31,695 --> 00:46:35,405
And vinyl, you know, there's
the Cure, I have to say, that's

805
00:46:35,405 --> 00:46:36,635
a bit of a favourite of mine.

806
00:46:37,365 --> 00:46:42,254
But it is really interesting and I think
that it's good for people to have a

807
00:46:42,254 --> 00:46:47,174
look at this sort of thing because it's
not what you expect is the things that

808
00:46:47,174 --> 00:46:49,374
hold the memories are valuable, is it?

809
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,010
You know, it's those other things.

810
00:46:52,010 --> 00:46:54,350
And again, it comes down to
that question of, you know, we

811
00:46:54,350 --> 00:46:55,640
always ask about the funeral.

812
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:56,820
Who is the funeral for?

813
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,699
Is it for the person who's
died, or is it for the person,

814
00:46:59,770 --> 00:47:01,040
people who were left behind?

815
00:47:01,470 --> 00:47:05,620
And I suppose, do you ask that same
question about when you're looking

816
00:47:05,620 --> 00:47:09,810
at you know, memento mori, and is it
a true representation of the person

817
00:47:09,810 --> 00:47:14,460
that was there, or is it actually held
in the memories who were left behind?

818
00:47:14,580 --> 00:47:15,790
Oh, that's great.

819
00:47:15,860 --> 00:47:17,690
I think it's a bit of both.

820
00:47:17,879 --> 00:47:22,939
Like I think these objects hold
memories just in the wear of them.

821
00:47:23,230 --> 00:47:27,290
So, scratches, nicks, discolorations,
that shows a history of it.

822
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:33,270
That history is alongside the deceased
person, so it's both in yourself as

823
00:47:33,270 --> 00:47:36,339
someone wanting to memorialize someone
else, it's the memories you have, but

824
00:47:36,339 --> 00:47:41,950
it's also the memories that are sparked
and inspired by those objects as well.

825
00:47:42,089 --> 00:47:42,610
It's a little bit of both.

826
00:47:43,170 --> 00:47:44,510
Yeah, it is, isn't it?

827
00:47:44,870 --> 00:47:50,430
Well, look, Chloe, I have to say, I am
so excited that research like yours is

828
00:47:50,430 --> 00:47:57,069
being done, and it's being documented,
and it's being published, so people can

829
00:47:57,070 --> 00:48:02,219
learn that there's so many different
amazing ways that we can really I'm

830
00:48:02,430 --> 00:48:06,680
You know, honor our loved ones and
continue past, you know, the first year

831
00:48:07,060 --> 00:48:12,109
onto the fact that the grief is, as you
mentioned, you know, grief is for life.

832
00:48:12,310 --> 00:48:16,990
And I think that, you know, that the work
that you're doing is really beautiful.

833
00:48:17,110 --> 00:48:19,959
Is there anything else that you
would like to share with our audience

834
00:48:20,100 --> 00:48:25,450
today and about the work that
you're doing or in grief at all?

835
00:48:27,020 --> 00:48:28,950
It's the thing that drives me forward.

836
00:48:28,970 --> 00:48:32,690
It's this misconception of what grief is.

837
00:48:33,355 --> 00:48:38,285
So, it's still perpetuated today,
the five stages of grief, and that is

838
00:48:38,305 --> 00:48:41,335
incorrect to the study that was conducted.

839
00:48:41,564 --> 00:48:45,405
So Elizabeth Kubler Ross created
this model, and she did a fantastic

840
00:48:45,405 --> 00:48:50,054
job for the time period in which
she researched and worked, in terms

841
00:48:50,084 --> 00:48:53,494
of the five stages of dying, which
is what it was originally called.

842
00:48:53,675 --> 00:48:58,905
It was later adapted to grief, and that,
that research study and adapting it

843
00:48:58,905 --> 00:49:01,245
to grief, it has no connection to me.

844
00:49:01,285 --> 00:49:05,994
There is no research done at that time
on, you know, what are people's responses

845
00:49:05,995 --> 00:49:07,715
to grieving a deceased loved one.

846
00:49:08,274 --> 00:49:10,264
So, moving on, letting go.

847
00:49:11,455 --> 00:49:15,885
These have been debunked for
20 plus years, and we need to

848
00:49:15,945 --> 00:49:18,505
move through other models now.

849
00:49:18,745 --> 00:49:23,535
It's had its time in the sun, now
we need to consider models, even

850
00:49:23,535 --> 00:49:26,005
models better represented in media.

851
00:49:26,245 --> 00:49:30,245
So that's where people get a lot
of these concepts of death from, is

852
00:49:30,255 --> 00:49:34,605
social media, it's movies, it's shows,
it's the entertainment industry.

853
00:49:35,205 --> 00:49:40,805
And we tend to go for really short,
snappy, easy to remember models, and

854
00:49:40,805 --> 00:49:45,075
I think that's why it's stuck around,
and it's easier to tell someone,

855
00:49:45,385 --> 00:49:47,025
this is what is going to happen.

856
00:49:47,144 --> 00:49:48,444
This is not what happens.

857
00:49:48,455 --> 00:49:49,494
It's messy.

858
00:49:49,905 --> 00:49:53,435
Fifteen, sixteen years later,
I'm still going to cry as hard

859
00:49:53,435 --> 00:49:55,385
as I did the day she died.

860
00:49:56,135 --> 00:50:00,955
So it's going to come back again, and
it's not something that I have to forget.

861
00:50:01,325 --> 00:50:01,845
Or.

862
00:50:02,345 --> 00:50:05,985
Not remember, because you're putting
distance between yourself and your

863
00:50:05,985 --> 00:50:10,035
loved one who had died when you try
to fit the experience into this box.

864
00:50:10,735 --> 00:50:15,275
So I think it's okay to be close to what
happened, in whatever capacity you need.

865
00:50:15,945 --> 00:50:17,275
There are no rules for this.

866
00:50:17,535 --> 00:50:21,485
It doesn't have to go from A to B. It's
just going to be this whole journey.

867
00:50:21,594 --> 00:50:26,015
I think that is very true and
a great comment to end on.

868
00:50:26,025 --> 00:50:31,765
And I would also say that it seems to
be that however you remember that person

869
00:50:32,265 --> 00:50:34,855
is also entirely up to you individually.

870
00:50:35,615 --> 00:50:36,445
Absolutely.

871
00:50:36,595 --> 00:50:38,395
People remember each other differently.

872
00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:42,560
That's what funerals do, you all come
together and you share stories and

873
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,970
you learn new things about the person
who died that you never knew before.

874
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,180
Yeah, everyone always
says that at a funeral,

875
00:50:49,479 --> 00:50:50,499
I never knew that.

876
00:50:50,700 --> 00:50:55,159
And it's great, these little surprises
and glimpses of what a person

877
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,270
is like in different situations.

878
00:50:57,655 --> 00:50:58,985
It's a, it's a real gift.

879
00:50:59,495 --> 00:51:03,285
Well, thank you so much for
sharing the wonderful and important

880
00:51:03,285 --> 00:51:04,405
work that you're doing, Chloe.

881
00:51:04,405 --> 00:51:08,314
I really look forward to seeing, you
know, where we go from here and how

882
00:51:08,314 --> 00:51:09,874
it develops over the next few years.

883
00:51:10,005 --> 00:51:10,474
Me too.

884
00:51:11,715 --> 00:51:11,995
Thanks

885
00:51:12,035 --> 00:51:12,505
Catherine.

886
00:51:13,264 --> 00:51:14,044
Thanks Chloe.

887
00:51:16,925 --> 00:51:20,345
We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead.

888
00:51:20,655 --> 00:51:22,245
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889
00:51:23,185 --> 00:51:27,445
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890
00:51:27,445 --> 00:51:29,364
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891
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