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Arwen Dropmann: You hear a lot of
stories of, we're so overwhelmed.

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We had very little time
to wrap up this property.

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It needed to be listed for sale.

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I only had a week to do it because I've
got family and other responsibilities

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and a lot goes in the skip bin, which is
usually contrary to most people's values.

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And it's probably contrary to the
values of the person who's passed.

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And it's often very heartbreaking for
the people who are doing that work,

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the families that have to come in and
they go, well, I've got no option here.

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the volume of possessions I can't
sort through this methodically, and

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that can be really contrary to their
values and cause a lot of heartaches.

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Catherine Ashton: Welcome to
Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast

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encouraging open conversations about
dying and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton,
founder of Critical Info.

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And I'm helping to bring your
stories of death back to life.

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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations

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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.

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We pay our respects to their
Elders, past, present and emerging,

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and extend that respect to all
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander

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and First Nation peoples around

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Arwen Dropmann: the globe.

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Catherine Ashton: Arwen Dropmann
is a qualified social worker with

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additional training in grief and loss,
disability, chronic illness, hoarding

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disorder, motivational interviewing,
neurodivergent affirming practices

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and compassion focused therapy.

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She has worked as a professional organiser
since 2017, with her business, Calm

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Space, founded at the start of 2020.

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She has lived and learnt experience
of disability and neurodivergence.

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Arwen cares deeply about professionalism
within the organising industry, and joined

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the Institute of Professional Organisers
board to make a positive contribution

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to the sector as it grows and matures.

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and is the board member responsible
for membership and accreditation.

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Arwen describes herself as in her
forties, young enough to do the lifting

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and shifting required in a decluttering
session, and old enough to bring

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some life experience to her work.

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She lives in Brisbane, Queensland,
is married with two teenage

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sons, and has found a newfound
appreciation for vintage items.

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Arwen, thank you for joining us today.

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Arwen Dropmann: Thanks
for having me, Catherine.

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Now, Arwen,

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Catherine Ashton: tell
us, what is a professional

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organiser.

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Arwen Dropmann: Professional organiser is
a person who works and provides a service

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to people who need assistance managing
possessions, spaces, time, tasks, errands.

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Really, it encompasses a lot of things.

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Often, it's very focused on decluttering
and organising spaces, but it can

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be around time and tasks as well.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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And

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Catherine Ashton: so what sort of services
do you offer as a professional organiser?

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You covered on a few things that
you do, but if you can sort of

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break down, like what sort of things
does that cover, I suppose, if

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someone was looking for something?

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Arwen Dropmann: Yeah.

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So there's probably a few different
groups of people that they get in

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touch and different needs they have.

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So.

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Uh, one of the main ones
would be decluttering.

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So where people have excess possessions
that are getting in the way of the use

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of their home or they're feeling very
overwhelmed and stressed about that.

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Uh, so to help people make decisions about
what items to keep, what items to let

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go and how they might approach that job.

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Occasionally those jobs get very large,
the clutter and the excess gets quite

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a high volume before an organiser.

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Is engaged when people often feeling
very overwhelmed about the size of

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the task and how to start what to do
with the items that they declutter and

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how to make good decisions that they
feel confident about and you know, we

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want to prevent high levels of regret.

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So people often worried that they're going
to regret what they, the things that they.

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that they pass on.

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So, a professional organiser can
help people, guide people through

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the process and the decision making.

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Organisations, so when people are
finding their environments are

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disorganised, there might not be a lot
of access, but the way that possessions

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are stored, there's no order to it.

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They don't know where things are.

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Less can, uh, create a lot of
problems with managing time.

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So hard to get out of the house on time.

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We don't know where things are.

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So organisers can help try and put
systems and setups in place to help people

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maintain organisation across the home.

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Uh, organizers can also help
with things like routines and

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schedules and managing tasks.

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So implementing systems with people
and helping people really get clarity

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about where their time is going and
where they want their time to be going.

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Uh, some organisers offer what
we call concierge services.

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So that's where you engage a
professional to book appointments,

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manage services, maybe plan travel,
uh, you know, drop off the dry

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cleaning, physical errands as well.

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Uh, so there is that element to
professional organising as well.

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And then there's a little subset
of photo organisers as well.

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So people who, uh, help.

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people to catalogue, to save and
back up their photos, to organise

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them and then present them in
a way that they can actually be

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enjoyed through albums or books.

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Uh, so that's also would be
encapsulated in the, the professional

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organising industry as well.

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That is very broad.

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Yes, it is.

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Yes, there's something for everyone.

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Yeah, there is.

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And

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Catherine Ashton: obviously your
background as a social worker must

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really provide you with a good set
of skills moving into this industry.

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Arwen Dropmann: Yeah, I think having
a good understanding of people and

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the issues faced by people, their
place in society and some of the

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structural issues and disadvantages
or advantages that people experience.

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As well as the sort of psychosocial
or the social emotional

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landscape for an individual.

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Uh, that really helps, uh, my
work as a professional organiser.

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I've very much taken those
skills and focused them in on

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one part of people's lives.

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But organisers spend a lot of time
with their clients and often we end

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up providing other types of support as
well and get to know people very well.

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So it does help me to, uh, yeah,
definitely bring a breadth of

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experience to a very sort of focused
part of, type of work that I do.

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And

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Catherine Ashton: obviously
it's very personal work.

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You're obviously in people's homes,
you're dealing with people's possessions.

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So tell me a little bit about, about
that and how, um, you know, I suppose

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the importance of, of the Institute
and how you got involved with

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Arwen Dropmann: the Institute.

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Yeah.

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So the, yes, you're right.

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Often, you know, a lot of people
who engage an organiser, it's

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not always just a once off.

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service.

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Sometimes these are, you know, projects
that can extend if we've got whole homes

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that are people are wanting to organise
or whole homes that need decluttering.

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It can be a relationship of
several months or more depending

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on the needs of the client.

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So, and, and you do get to know
people very well when you handle

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their possessions, you're asking
them questions about their life.

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We need to understand their lives as well
and how that relates to their possessions.

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So.

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When you handle positions and talk to
them about people, people about them,

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you get to know a lot about that people.

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So the intimacy between an organiser and
a long term client can be quite high.

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We, you know, there's, there's
also some give and take.

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Our clients get to know
a bit about us as well.

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So yes, we have a very often very strong
and close connection with clients.

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One of the reasons why I accepted a
position on the board of the Institute

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of Professional Organisers is because
of those sort of close ongoing

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relationships a lot of organisers do have.

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It's really important that.

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As a, as a currently an unregulated
industry that we are looking toward

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professionalism with the industry.

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We don't want to harm
people with our work.

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We want to support them.

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Often they're very vulnerable when
they come to us and being a part of

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the institute is really reflecting
that value that I have that we increase

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professionalism within the industry
and, and are doing the right thing

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by clients and really looking at
what the best practice is when we do

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this type of work in people's homes.

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So tell me about, um,

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Catherine Ashton: you, you just
mentioned regulation there.

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Tell me a little bit about the role of
the, the Institute and the fact that it's

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not currently regulated and, and what

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Arwen Dropmann: your involvement is.

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So, uh, professional organising is It's
a relatively new profession and industry.

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I like to term it as emerging, so
it's, it's been around for a little

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while now and longer in the U.

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S.

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than in Australia, but it's
experienced a lot of growth in recent

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years and, but it is an unregulated
industry and it's not really a very

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well recognised industry, I think.

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Uh, people, the awareness around it is
growing through like things, TV shows

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like Marie Kondo's show and The Home Edit.

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There's decluttering shows as well on TV.

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That's often where people might
become aware that this is,

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this is a service that exists.

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TV shows aren't always a great
reflection of what really happens for

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people when they engage a service.

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So, But that's often where people, there's
been a lot more in the media about it,

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news of paper articles and magazines
and online articles about decluttering.

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There was a bit of a focus on it during
the pandemic as people were spending

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a lot more time at home and some of
these issues were a bit more confronting

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because people weren't able to escape.

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If they were in cluttered environments
or disorganized, it was, it was

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right in front of them and they were,
there was a bit more focus on that.

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In terms of the Institute of Professional
Organisers, you know, the path to

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industry recognition and, and regulation
is long, and, but we're taking steps to.

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to get professional organizing
more recognized officially.

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Uh, and then hopefully that, that's some
standards for what the educator, what

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you can reasonably expect when you engage
an organiser of what kind of training

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they might've had and what kind of
ethics, uh, you know, is there a code of

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ethics or a code of practice that they.

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That they follow when you engage someone,
but that will still be a long journey.

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So is there

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Catherine Ashton: a code of
conduct, code of conduct that

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the members of your association

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Arwen Dropmann: have?

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Yeah.

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So we, we term it a code of practice.

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And so when people join as a member of
the Institute of Professional Organisers,

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they have to read and agree that they
will follow that code of practice.

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And that includes aspects of how you
operate your business in your, in

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terms of fair and transparent dealings
with people, as well as you, how you

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deal with your other colleagues in
the industry and clients as well.

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And if someone was

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Catherine Ashton: needing support
in relation to the services that

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you've mentioned, whether it be
decluttering or assistance with

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cataloguing their photos, how can
they find someone in their local area?

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Arwen Dropmann: Yeah, so Institute of
Professional Organisers has a find an

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organiser directory on their website.

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Uh, so that you can use.

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to search by area or by need.

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So a lot of organizers will
also offer service virtually.

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So if there's someone not quite the
right, if you can't quite find the

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right fit in your area, there might be
someone who can support you virtually.

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I know that seems unusual when a lot
of our work is physically in people's

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homes, but I think the rise of virtual
services is really acknowledging

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that a lot of what's happening for
people in their homes is really about.

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in their heart and mind and, and
overcoming sort of barriers in

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thinking or overwhelm and, and
support their need in decision making.

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And organisers can also give guidance
virtually as well about, you know,

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okay, you could put this here and there.

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So it's quite interesting.

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Yeah.

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So the directory has
listings of organisers.

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You can go in, there's bios,
pictures, you can get an idea

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and links to their websites.

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And it's a nice way to catch
a few, capture a few people.

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in your area and to choose between.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Catherine Ashton: That sounds
like a very valuable service.

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And tell me from your point of
view, what have you found to be the

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most significant challenges that
families face when a loved one dies?

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Arwen Dropmann: So, definitely,
organizers, a lot of organizers get to

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meet people all through their lifespan.

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So, working from children or expectant
mothers, even, expectant mothers,

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people with younger children, people
with older children, people who've.

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Kids have grown and flown, as well
as older folks who are, you know,

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maybe becoming elderly or thinking
of downsizing or needing to change

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their, their living situation, as
well as when people have passed.

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So we really see the whole lifespan.

239
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It gives us a really interesting
perspective on the role of possessions

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and homes in, over the lifespan.

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Uh, I think when I think one of the main
challenges when someone dies for the

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family or whoever is the one responsible
for dealing with their affairs, look, I

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think the, when it becomes problematic
is often when that person has not really

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taken any steps prior to their death.

245
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To arrange their affairs or to,
to deal with the lifetime sort of

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accumulation of possessions, you
can actually accumulate quite a lot.

247
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Uh, if you're still living in the
family home and you haven't had to

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downsize, you know, modern homes
can hold a lot of possessions and

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that can be very overwhelming for.

250
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uh, friends, family, loved ones to
deal with after someone has passed.

251
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And when, when, when their affairs
aren't organised, that can cause a lot

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of angst for the people left behind,
wondering why they, why they've been

253
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left with, uh, you know, a lifetime's
worth of possessions to deal with it,

254
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that nothing was dealt with beforehand.

255
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And that, and often it's coming
at a time when those people

256
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are actually quite bereaved.

257
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And stressed and may not be at
their full capacity and they're

258
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needing to deal with this.

259
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I think when I, uh, work with,
with people who are nearing the

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end of their lives, or they're,
they're older or they're downsizing.

261
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I do get them to think about their
legacy because I work also with people

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who are dealing with their legacy.

263
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And to, to, to get them to think
about what their legacy is that

264
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they are leaving behind for.

265
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The people who will be coming
in to, to wrap up their affairs

266
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and deal with their possessions.

267
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And they've got an opportunity to
make that a less unpleasant experience

268
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if they just take a few steps.

269
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To do a bit of decluttering, to alert
people to what is special to them or

270
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what has significance so that amongst
all the stress and all the other things

271
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that people are dealing with that they,
they know what was important and special

272
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and that that doesn't go in the bin
or that they can be really intentional

273
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about how they want to deal with that.

274
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They might want to share stories.

275
00:15:02,239 --> 00:15:05,270
with their friend, their,
their loved ones around items.

276
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Cause, uh, you know, it might be, this was
very special to, to great grandma Betty,

277
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but no one knows why, because she didn't
share the story about it with anyone.

278
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So sharing stories about why these
things are special can be helpful

279
00:15:20,420 --> 00:15:23,730
as well as, as people are making a
lot of decisions about what to do.

280
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Yeah.

281
00:15:24,829 --> 00:15:26,319
Does that, does that answer your question?

282
00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:29,030
Yeah, I could probably
talk on and on about this.

283
00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:30,930
Catherine Ashton: No,

284
00:15:31,250 --> 00:15:31,449
Arwen Dropmann: no,

285
00:15:31,610 --> 00:15:32,860
Catherine Ashton: that's,
that's so true though.

286
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:37,860
There is a big difference between what
is valuable and what is sentimental.

287
00:15:38,369 --> 00:15:39,430
Arwen Dropmann: Oh, absolutely.

288
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,170
It's a value to the person, so it
may not look like it's of value.

289
00:15:43,614 --> 00:15:47,425
monetary value, but it might've
been very precious to the person.

290
00:15:47,475 --> 00:15:50,064
I mean, the other thing is that
not all of us have the skills to

291
00:15:50,064 --> 00:15:51,954
know what does have monetary value.

292
00:15:52,395 --> 00:15:56,685
So if, if, if you know that there's
a family member who's collected a

293
00:15:56,694 --> 00:16:01,945
lot of antiques or valuable items,
getting them to share a bit about.

294
00:16:02,545 --> 00:16:07,035
What that item is, where they are,
what their provenance is, because not

295
00:16:07,035 --> 00:16:10,155
all of us walk into a home and go,
Oh, I can see that's very valuable

296
00:16:10,155 --> 00:16:11,475
because we may not have the skills.

297
00:16:11,725 --> 00:16:15,345
And that's when other, other specialists
like auction houses and antique dealers

298
00:16:15,345 --> 00:16:20,869
can be valuable resource at that time
to help families identify what was.

299
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,920
What is of monetary value so that
they can sort of fulfill their

300
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,870
role to wind up that estate in a
financially responsible manner.

301
00:16:29,410 --> 00:16:33,160
So, but without knowing sometimes
people just walk in, they're so

302
00:16:33,169 --> 00:16:36,780
overwhelmed and you hear a lot of
stories of, we're so overwhelmed.

303
00:16:36,789 --> 00:16:39,639
We had very little time
to wrap up this property.

304
00:16:39,639 --> 00:16:43,790
It needed to be listed for sale, you know,
I only had a week to do it because I've

305
00:16:43,790 --> 00:16:47,000
got family and other responsibilities
and a lot goes in the skip bin.

306
00:16:47,755 --> 00:16:51,555
Which is usually contrary to most people's
values and it's probably contrary to

307
00:16:51,555 --> 00:16:55,045
the values of the person who's passed
and it's often very heartbreaking for

308
00:16:55,045 --> 00:16:58,635
the people who are doing that work,
the families that have to come in and

309
00:16:58,645 --> 00:17:00,535
they go, well, I've got no option here.

310
00:17:00,805 --> 00:17:04,284
The volume of possessions, I can't
sort through this methodically and

311
00:17:04,285 --> 00:17:07,434
that can be really contrary to their
values and cause a lot of heartache.

312
00:17:07,434 --> 00:17:11,124
So I think that I think I've
touched on a few of the areas

313
00:17:11,124 --> 00:17:15,034
where it can be tricky for people
in terms of space and possessions.

314
00:17:15,615 --> 00:17:17,474
Uh, after someone's died, yeah.

315
00:17:18,275 --> 00:17:20,795
Catherine Ashton: And is that when that
they should really perhaps reach out

316
00:17:20,795 --> 00:17:25,855
and, and seek the services of someone
from your, you know, association?

317
00:17:26,324 --> 00:17:28,005
Arwen Dropmann: Yeah, it's a common time.

318
00:17:28,185 --> 00:17:33,025
So organisers, life transitions
would be a common time where people

319
00:17:33,025 --> 00:17:34,864
might think I need help with this.

320
00:17:35,404 --> 00:17:37,584
There's something new, I've
never done this before.

321
00:17:37,584 --> 00:17:39,125
So that could be a downsize.

322
00:17:39,605 --> 00:17:43,535
It can be when people start to realise
that my health is not great and now I'm.

323
00:17:44,425 --> 00:17:46,294
I've got a big job and
I need help with this.

324
00:17:47,084 --> 00:17:52,515
It can be, like you said, when someone
dies and people are feeling a bit lost

325
00:17:52,515 --> 00:17:56,145
and it's a very big job, they might be
looking out to say who could help me.

326
00:17:56,345 --> 00:18:00,265
So those life transitions are definitely
where we would see people seeking

327
00:18:00,265 --> 00:18:01,804
the help of a professional organizer.

328
00:18:01,805 --> 00:18:04,905
And I think, I think we're
starting to normalize.

329
00:18:05,604 --> 00:18:09,524
That this is something that's okay to
get help with, and that there's really,

330
00:18:09,935 --> 00:18:14,135
a lot of people feel like they, we're
very independent Australians, and we

331
00:18:14,135 --> 00:18:17,955
carry around a lot of shoulds about
what we should be able to do with our

332
00:18:17,965 --> 00:18:22,735
help, but I think we're starting to
get better at asking for help and not

333
00:18:23,284 --> 00:18:27,175
And, you know, letting go of the shame
that we might have carried around

334
00:18:27,175 --> 00:18:28,764
about needing help with something.

335
00:18:29,054 --> 00:18:34,095
And organisers are very astute at
handling, when people are overwhelmed

336
00:18:34,095 --> 00:18:37,824
and they might be feeling some shame,
we're aware that that might be happening.

337
00:18:38,164 --> 00:18:41,884
And we know how to get the job done,
but we often are very, we know how

338
00:18:41,894 --> 00:18:44,124
to get it done sensitively as well.

339
00:18:44,554 --> 00:18:45,004
Yeah.

340
00:18:45,145 --> 00:18:46,085
And respectfully.

341
00:18:47,485 --> 00:18:50,115
Catherine Ashton: And it's interesting
that you talk about the culture in

342
00:18:50,115 --> 00:18:55,845
Australia and the feelings associated
with that, because it's not always

343
00:18:55,855 --> 00:18:59,504
throughout the world that there's
issues with decluttering, is there?

344
00:18:59,574 --> 00:19:04,415
Because, you know, we know that in Sweden,
they actually have a practice that is

345
00:19:04,425 --> 00:19:06,264
specifically called death cleaning.

346
00:19:06,574 --> 00:19:06,704
Yeah.

347
00:19:07,730 --> 00:19:12,270
I don't want to hazard how I would
actually pronounce the term in Swedish.

348
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,480
It's not that great, my Swedish,
but they actually have a practice

349
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:17,789
Arwen Dropmann: called
death cleaning, don't they?

350
00:19:18,209 --> 00:19:21,600
Yes, yes, I haven't actually read,
there's a very well known book about

351
00:19:21,620 --> 00:19:25,749
this, I haven't actually read that
one, but the principle is great,

352
00:19:25,879 --> 00:19:31,799
uh, that you, you, it's really about
engaging a level of mindfulness.

353
00:19:32,389 --> 00:19:35,080
About your possessions
and about your legacy.

354
00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:36,929
And I have a lot of respect for that.

355
00:19:37,310 --> 00:19:40,330
I think it can be helpful for
the person who's doing it.

356
00:19:41,300 --> 00:19:45,399
Uh, and I think it can be helpful for
the people who come after as well.

357
00:19:47,139 --> 00:19:48,530
The, the book I, I

358
00:19:48,530 --> 00:19:52,729
Catherine Ashton: believe that we're
referring to is The Gentle Art of Swedish

359
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:58,350
Death Cleaning and it was written by
Margarita Magnusson, uh, and we'll put

360
00:19:58,350 --> 00:20:03,290
the links in the, uh, the show notes as
well as obviously the links to the, uh,

361
00:20:03,370 --> 00:20:05,669
the Institute of Professional Organisers.

362
00:20:06,010 --> 00:20:09,800
So if you need any support there,
but you were just mentioning the, the

363
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,270
sensitivities that you have to deal with.

364
00:20:12,350 --> 00:20:17,239
Really it seems to be in a lot of cases
you come across, whether it's, it's people

365
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:22,569
who are reluctant to let go of items
or the shame or guilt that they feel.

366
00:20:22,889 --> 00:20:26,149
What are some of the
challenging situations you've

367
00:20:26,189 --> 00:20:27,760
personally found yourself in?

368
00:20:30,870 --> 00:20:31,160
Yeah.

369
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:31,750
People.

370
00:20:32,094 --> 00:20:35,274
Arwen Dropmann: Don't arrive at,
you know, I arrive at people's

371
00:20:35,274 --> 00:20:40,815
homes and they come with all of
their background, their experiences,

372
00:20:40,855 --> 00:20:44,764
whatever situation they're currently
in, there's always a big context.

373
00:20:45,390 --> 00:20:49,710
When we arrive to do a job, uh, so I
think it's always understanding that

374
00:20:49,710 --> 00:20:53,090
there's a lot about people we don't
know at that point, and that we're just

375
00:20:53,090 --> 00:20:57,719
starting out to get to know them, but it
is a process of rapidly getting to know

376
00:20:57,780 --> 00:21:01,040
people and trying to understand what's
important to them, what their values

377
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,180
are, and working in alignment with that.

378
00:21:03,725 --> 00:21:09,735
Definitely some of the more challenging
situations is, I do recall there was a

379
00:21:09,735 --> 00:21:14,604
family where there was two sisters who
didn't have a great relationship and

380
00:21:14,604 --> 00:21:18,165
their father had been moved into aged
care and they were in the process of,

381
00:21:18,524 --> 00:21:20,494
of decluttering the house for sale.

382
00:21:20,814 --> 00:21:24,184
So and occasionally we will walk into
situations like that where there's

383
00:21:24,184 --> 00:21:28,574
high conflict and there's people
not seeing eye to eye and being

384
00:21:28,614 --> 00:21:30,424
able to navigate that while still.

385
00:21:31,485 --> 00:21:36,415
uh, achieving the outcome, which
is the, uh, you know, a clearer or

386
00:21:36,415 --> 00:21:38,665
cleared home that can be challenging.

387
00:21:38,665 --> 00:21:40,514
It's not just about the stuff.

388
00:21:40,514 --> 00:21:44,185
I think, uh, anyone working this
industry will tell you that it's

389
00:21:44,185 --> 00:21:45,735
not just about the possessions.

390
00:21:45,745 --> 00:21:46,264
It's about.

391
00:21:46,930 --> 00:21:50,950
The people that are involved and their
beliefs and their values and their

392
00:21:50,950 --> 00:21:52,530
relationship to their possessions.

393
00:21:52,930 --> 00:21:54,950
And that can get complex for people.

394
00:21:54,950 --> 00:21:58,799
So based on your personal

395
00:21:58,799 --> 00:22:01,960
Catherine Ashton: experience, what
would you suggest that people do

396
00:22:01,970 --> 00:22:05,419
when they're trying to work through
the administration tasks that are

397
00:22:05,420 --> 00:22:08,270
involved after a loved one has died?

398
00:22:08,330 --> 00:22:11,940
You know, where, where do you
suggest that they start based on your

399
00:22:11,940 --> 00:22:12,540
Arwen Dropmann: experience?

400
00:22:13,534 --> 00:22:19,374
I mean, my, my experience, my lens is
very much focused on possessions because

401
00:22:19,384 --> 00:22:23,694
that's often where we are involved, but
there's often a lot of tasks as well.

402
00:22:24,225 --> 00:22:28,275
I think, I think an important
aspect is prioritizing.

403
00:22:28,305 --> 00:22:34,695
Sometimes people come to us with a, a
really high sense of urgency about this,

404
00:22:34,764 --> 00:22:39,295
this, and this would be in any situation,
not just after a death is quick.

405
00:22:39,325 --> 00:22:40,045
I must declutter.

406
00:22:40,045 --> 00:22:41,754
I must do it all now and it must be done.

407
00:22:42,184 --> 00:22:43,524
And then when we get to know them.

408
00:22:43,805 --> 00:22:46,605
They've got a lot of other things
happening, but they're feeling a lot

409
00:22:46,605 --> 00:22:49,965
of urgency around the possessions,
but maybe, even though it's

410
00:22:49,965 --> 00:22:53,435
causing stress, Maybe they need to
attend to some other things first.

411
00:22:53,685 --> 00:22:55,804
So sometimes you see a bit
of a false sense of urgency.

412
00:22:55,804 --> 00:22:58,905
So I guess when someone's wrapping up
an estate, being able to prioritise

413
00:23:00,375 --> 00:23:04,885
what, what are the immediate tasks
that need to be done and what can wait.

414
00:23:05,135 --> 00:23:09,674
Because at that point it can feel very
overwhelming and obviously emotionally

415
00:23:09,674 --> 00:23:14,064
people are often under a lot of strain
and we're often not in those sort of

416
00:23:14,064 --> 00:23:16,364
critical sort of crisis situations.

417
00:23:16,364 --> 00:23:20,885
People, people are not usually cognitively
functioning at their, at their best.

418
00:23:20,894 --> 00:23:21,184
So.

419
00:23:21,770 --> 00:23:26,399
I think it's about take, take slowing
down and working out what needs to happen

420
00:23:26,399 --> 00:23:32,149
right now and what can wait a few days and
what can wait a few weeks and then just

421
00:23:32,159 --> 00:23:36,340
start, just take that one day at a time or
one week at a time and work through what

422
00:23:36,350 --> 00:23:42,189
you can and often the, often the house
or the home or the possessions can feel

423
00:23:42,189 --> 00:23:43,729
very urgent because it's very visible.

424
00:23:44,925 --> 00:23:48,665
And occasionally there is urgency around
the house, like if that estate needs

425
00:23:48,665 --> 00:23:52,905
to be wrapped up quickly for financial
reasons, you know, the house is often the

426
00:23:52,915 --> 00:23:57,715
biggest asset and that would need to be
attended to so that it can be progressed.

427
00:23:57,725 --> 00:24:02,334
So, but I think sometimes people feel a
false sense of urgency around different

428
00:24:02,334 --> 00:24:04,285
things and it would be about prioritising.

429
00:24:05,855 --> 00:24:06,965
Catherine Ashton: That's
really good advice.

430
00:24:06,995 --> 00:24:10,885
And you mentioned, you know, there's
obviously the services that the

431
00:24:10,885 --> 00:24:16,035
professional organisers can offer and come
in and, and assist in those situations.

432
00:24:16,325 --> 00:24:19,305
You've mentioned that
there's also auction houses.

433
00:24:19,615 --> 00:24:23,784
What other services have you had
experience with, you know, after the death

434
00:24:23,785 --> 00:24:29,174
of, of someone, whether it be traumatic
or, or just, you know, an expected death?

435
00:24:32,024 --> 00:24:35,915
Arwen Dropmann: Yeah, I mean, uh,
professional organisers do offer sort of

436
00:24:35,925 --> 00:24:40,474
ad hoc emotional support as you're going
through things, but if people are finding

437
00:24:40,475 --> 00:24:45,364
that they really, they need to debrief
and discuss, then directing them to a

438
00:24:45,364 --> 00:24:48,594
counsellor who can really, who's trained
and who can really focus in on that.

439
00:24:49,024 --> 00:24:52,324
Professional organisers are also there
to try and do a job around possessions.

440
00:24:52,745 --> 00:24:56,754
So we need to stay in our lane in
terms of what we're doing, but there's.

441
00:24:56,930 --> 00:24:58,639
You know, when you're going
through people's possessions,

442
00:24:58,860 --> 00:25:00,320
it can trigger a lot of grief.

443
00:25:00,710 --> 00:25:04,430
And so it can be still
part of that, that process.

444
00:25:04,460 --> 00:25:07,620
But yes, getting, getting sort
of professional counseling

445
00:25:07,620 --> 00:25:08,750
or someone to debrief with.

446
00:25:09,344 --> 00:25:14,905
Particularly if it's been a crisis so
that they can gain some strategies around

447
00:25:15,545 --> 00:25:20,764
how am I going to do this task and manage
my responses to this crisis as well.

448
00:25:21,314 --> 00:25:25,115
I think if we're talking about spaces
and possessions, I think when we're

449
00:25:25,465 --> 00:25:27,849
clearing after a death, there is a lot.

450
00:25:27,940 --> 00:25:32,430
that can't be often can't be
donated or just in that, you

451
00:25:32,430 --> 00:25:34,400
know, uh, to get a second life.

452
00:25:34,810 --> 00:25:37,030
So there is auction houses
for valuable things.

453
00:25:37,030 --> 00:25:40,669
And there are ways to do professional
organisers also help people with

454
00:25:40,670 --> 00:25:44,980
ways to donate and discard things
responsibly to give them a second

455
00:25:44,980 --> 00:25:46,399
life through different charities.

456
00:25:46,740 --> 00:25:49,300
Um, and that's often a very
big part of what organizers

457
00:25:49,300 --> 00:25:50,570
are doing is arranging for.

458
00:25:51,245 --> 00:25:55,045
Charity furniture pickups for items
that are less valuable, supporting

459
00:25:55,045 --> 00:25:57,775
people to list things on marketplace
if that's what they choose to

460
00:25:57,775 --> 00:26:01,905
do, to sell things secondhand and
to deliver items to charities.

461
00:26:02,555 --> 00:26:05,494
But there's often also the need
for rubbish removal as well.

462
00:26:05,505 --> 00:26:11,575
So things like skip companies or there's
a company called 1 800 Got Junk or.

463
00:26:12,485 --> 00:26:15,225
probably similar other businesses
around in the community where you

464
00:26:15,225 --> 00:26:19,435
get a truck and two guys, and they
can pick up things that can go.

465
00:26:19,595 --> 00:26:23,695
And I know that company has a very
strong sustainability focus as well.

466
00:26:24,155 --> 00:26:26,955
So that can, there can be a role
for those sorts of things as well.

467
00:26:28,434 --> 00:26:29,185
And you've had

468
00:26:29,224 --> 00:26:31,584
Catherine Ashton: experience
with hoarding disorder.

469
00:26:32,235 --> 00:26:37,495
Uh, obviously that is a situation that
might be very challenging for family

470
00:26:37,495 --> 00:26:40,625
members when they see a loved one in that.

471
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:41,990
that situation.

472
00:26:42,350 --> 00:26:43,790
What do you suggest?

473
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,550
Is there anything that you
suggest in relation to, to those

474
00:26:46,860 --> 00:26:47,750
Arwen Dropmann: situations?

475
00:26:48,550 --> 00:26:54,679
So, hoarding disorder is very complex
and very challenging to work with.

476
00:26:55,415 --> 00:27:00,655
If someone comes to me discussing a
family member with hoarding disorder,

477
00:27:00,665 --> 00:27:05,145
for me personally, I'm, I'm a volunteer
when my organizing business is voluntary.

478
00:27:05,154 --> 00:27:07,975
So, um, I don't go where I'm not wanted.

479
00:27:08,294 --> 00:27:12,384
Uh, so it is important to me personally
that the person is wanting assistance.

480
00:27:12,384 --> 00:27:16,475
And so I like to connect and engage
with them to understand that in

481
00:27:16,475 --> 00:27:21,685
terms of what I would say to family
members is to maintain a relationship

482
00:27:21,695 --> 00:27:25,554
with the person and make your
relationship with them, not just about.

483
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,270
The state of their home and their
possessions, because that can, that can

484
00:27:30,270 --> 00:27:33,770
damage the relationship if it's always,
they're always feeling like this is the

485
00:27:33,770 --> 00:27:35,409
only thing that ever gets discussed.

486
00:27:35,929 --> 00:27:40,080
If the home's in a state to still
visit, to keep visiting, to keep

487
00:27:40,090 --> 00:27:44,299
going there, because once people
stop visiting, sometimes it's this.

488
00:27:44,780 --> 00:27:51,710
The situation will deteriorate and to, to
lead by example, I guess, in terms of your

489
00:27:51,710 --> 00:27:57,689
own life, to attend to your own clutter,
uh, and your own possessions, uh, and to

490
00:27:57,709 --> 00:28:01,110
be really gentle about suggesting that
there are some things that they could

491
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:03,019
do, uh, with people that they could.

492
00:28:03,795 --> 00:28:08,775
link with, like a professional organizer,
there are therapists that can help with

493
00:28:09,025 --> 00:28:12,855
hoarding disorder as well, and there are
group programs like Buried in Treasures.

494
00:28:12,855 --> 00:28:18,534
I'd love to see more of that in Australia,
that the group peer support for hoarding.

495
00:28:18,965 --> 00:28:23,654
So that would be the, that would
be what I would say to people,

496
00:28:23,744 --> 00:28:27,175
is I think above all maintain the
relationship with your loved one.

497
00:28:28,940 --> 00:28:32,910
Catherine Ashton: And would that be
similar advice in relation to, uh,

498
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,149
perhaps neurodiversity and disability?

499
00:28:36,450 --> 00:28:40,649
Do you have any particular
advice for either of those

500
00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:41,700
Arwen Dropmann: situations?

501
00:28:42,249 --> 00:28:47,700
I think, I think those groups, they're
such a diverse, so disability and

502
00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:49,879
neurodivergence, it's very diverse.

503
00:28:49,879 --> 00:28:53,740
So I probably can't say I have a go to
piece of advice because I think there's

504
00:28:53,850 --> 00:28:55,740
so much diversity within those groups.

505
00:28:55,770 --> 00:28:58,710
It will depend on what's That's
what people are coming to be with.

506
00:28:59,450 --> 00:29:01,830
Yeah, in terms of what I
would say to them, yeah.

507
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:02,820
But

508
00:29:02,820 --> 00:29:06,650
Catherine Ashton: it seems to be
that, uh, open lines of communication

509
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,260
seem to be key in regardless of who

510
00:29:09,420 --> 00:29:09,540
you

511
00:29:09,540 --> 00:29:09,550
Arwen Dropmann: are.

512
00:29:09,980 --> 00:29:11,510
I think so.

513
00:29:11,569 --> 00:29:12,279
I think so.

514
00:29:12,569 --> 00:29:16,340
I think that's, yeah, the case is that
we don't want people's relationships

515
00:29:16,340 --> 00:29:20,439
with their loved ones just to start
to get focused on possessions and

516
00:29:20,439 --> 00:29:24,230
physical environments, even though
that can be when you've got people

517
00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:28,210
in, in families, families and friends
who may have different experience.

518
00:29:28,660 --> 00:29:29,960
and different values.

519
00:29:30,110 --> 00:29:34,070
It can be hard for them to look past when
someone lives differently to them and has

520
00:29:34,070 --> 00:29:37,940
a different environment, but it doesn't
necessarily mean it's right or wrong.

521
00:29:37,950 --> 00:29:39,090
It may just be different.

522
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,019
And for me as an organizer, if
that person comes to me and says,

523
00:29:43,050 --> 00:29:45,380
I want to change, then I'm there.

524
00:29:46,629 --> 00:29:50,530
And, but I will be encouraging them
to acknowledge that they might have

525
00:29:50,530 --> 00:29:54,410
people in their lives with different
values, different experience, different

526
00:29:54,420 --> 00:29:59,180
preferences, and to Resist taking
that on board, any judgment that's

527
00:29:59,180 --> 00:30:03,500
coming from other people who don't
live in that property, particularly.

528
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,360
Occasionally there's two people
that live in a property, have very

529
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,959
different preferences, but that's,
that's something that professional

530
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,129
organizers deal with as well.

531
00:30:11,129 --> 00:30:14,439
How do we meet the needs of everyone in
this house, given that we've got people

532
00:30:14,450 --> 00:30:16,029
with different preferences and needs.

533
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:16,580
Yeah.

534
00:30:19,530 --> 00:30:19,720
And.

535
00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:22,550
Catherine Ashton: Has there
been any incidents that have

536
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,480
influenced your thoughts on,

537
00:30:24,820 --> 00:30:25,400
Arwen Dropmann: on death?

538
00:30:28,180 --> 00:30:33,230
I, I, I do think some of my professional
experiences seeing, seeing loved ones

539
00:30:33,230 --> 00:30:38,059
left behind who are feeling very,
very distressed at the situation

540
00:30:38,059 --> 00:30:39,320
they've been left to deal with.

541
00:30:39,869 --> 00:30:43,360
So I do have some opinions about
people attending to their legacy.

542
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,810
Uh, for their loved ones and because the
loved ones often feel very ambivalent

543
00:30:48,810 --> 00:30:56,479
and conflicted when left with, you know,
a very full, very disorganised affairs.

544
00:30:56,620 --> 00:30:57,780
They feel very conflicted.

545
00:30:57,780 --> 00:30:58,640
They're very sad.

546
00:30:59,099 --> 00:31:00,019
They love that person.

547
00:31:00,019 --> 00:31:03,009
They can't understand why they
were left in that situation.

548
00:31:03,620 --> 00:31:07,440
So, so I think attending to
legacy and keeping my own affairs

549
00:31:07,450 --> 00:31:12,040
in order, encouraging people
around me to try and do the same.

550
00:31:12,435 --> 00:31:16,765
While still maintaining relationships
with those people would be something

551
00:31:16,765 --> 00:31:21,935
that I do care deeply about, uh, and,
but, but always being respectful with

552
00:31:22,014 --> 00:31:25,985
whoever, yeah, if you've got someone
in your life who's, who's older

553
00:31:25,985 --> 00:31:30,344
or has, you know, reaching toward
their end of their lives, it's, it

554
00:31:30,344 --> 00:31:31,765
is still being respectful to them.

555
00:31:31,765 --> 00:31:34,425
They do still need to have
sovereignty and agency over their

556
00:31:34,425 --> 00:31:36,185
own possessions and make choices.

557
00:31:36,665 --> 00:31:40,185
I think it's just pointing out
to them that, that they may.

558
00:31:41,235 --> 00:31:47,865
You may not have the time and the energy
to, to handle things in a way that they

559
00:31:47,865 --> 00:31:53,285
would prefer if they don't take steps
now to, to get their affairs in order.

560
00:31:53,665 --> 00:31:55,924
So, so my work has influenced me.

561
00:31:55,925 --> 00:31:56,385
I've also.

562
00:31:57,430 --> 00:32:03,420
Had sort of a crisis situation in my
own life that's in, in, in informed

563
00:32:03,420 --> 00:32:05,260
some of my thoughts about that.

564
00:32:05,300 --> 00:32:09,060
It wasn't a death, but it was, I had
some family members in a very serious

565
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,099
car accident and who have really
lifelong injuries as a result of that.

566
00:32:13,149 --> 00:32:17,319
And, and I think what that taught me
was that life can change in an instant,

567
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:27,080
that, uh, that nothing is guaranteed and
yeah, I think in terms of focus, I guess

568
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:28,859
the focus for me as a result of that is.

569
00:32:29,220 --> 00:32:32,800
When we say goodbye at the door in the
morning, I send my kids to school, I, we

570
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:37,070
make sure it's a good goodbye, we have
good farewells that when I say goodbye

571
00:32:37,070 --> 00:32:41,780
to someone, it is a good farewell and
that we don't leave, uh, relationships

572
00:32:41,820 --> 00:32:47,639
with open regrets or open conflict, we
try to, to always be leaving, parting

573
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,030
on good terms because life is uncertain,
we don't know what's next and we don't

574
00:32:51,030 --> 00:32:56,270
want to leave ourselves or other people
With a source of long term regret.

575
00:32:56,270 --> 00:33:00,000
I think that's probably the one thing
that I would say about that matter.

576
00:33:00,060 --> 00:33:03,140
Yeah, that's something

577
00:33:03,690 --> 00:33:05,209
Catherine Ashton: very good
to say about that, actually.

578
00:33:06,589 --> 00:33:09,850
Because we, we really don't know, you
know, what's, what's around the corner.

579
00:33:10,700 --> 00:33:11,410
Arwen Dropmann: And have you

580
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,000
Catherine Ashton: yourself done anything
to prepare for your own death, Arwen?

581
00:33:17,340 --> 00:33:18,849
Arwen Dropmann: Yeah, that's
an interesting question.

582
00:33:18,849 --> 00:33:21,999
I don't think, I wouldn't have said
that the things that I've done are

583
00:33:22,049 --> 00:33:27,255
specifically around that, but I guess,
I guess given my experiences, You know,

584
00:33:27,255 --> 00:33:32,735
I do try to keep my affairs pretty well
organized and in order and up to date.

585
00:33:33,175 --> 00:33:37,215
Uh, so I have wills, I have
power of attorney, I have a

586
00:33:37,215 --> 00:33:38,965
crisis plan for my business.

587
00:33:38,975 --> 00:33:43,655
So if something, and it is a, I, if
something happens to me and I'm not able

588
00:33:43,655 --> 00:33:48,114
to give anyone any information, this is
what would need to be done in my business

589
00:33:48,174 --> 00:33:51,365
to just do a crisis management of it.

590
00:33:52,010 --> 00:33:54,670
Or to wind it up if
needed, if I'm not around.

591
00:33:55,050 --> 00:34:00,380
And I think having a little bit of that
information available to, uh, my loved

592
00:34:00,380 --> 00:34:04,079
ones, or my friends and my colleagues that
I've asked to help if that would happen.

593
00:34:04,079 --> 00:34:06,520
So I have asked people, could,
would you step in and help

594
00:34:06,779 --> 00:34:08,040
my family if this happened?

595
00:34:08,050 --> 00:34:09,669
And I needed to wrap up the business.

596
00:34:10,269 --> 00:34:13,070
I have an emergency care
document for my children.

597
00:34:13,100 --> 00:34:16,390
So if I'm not around, what,
what happens to my kids?

598
00:34:16,390 --> 00:34:19,990
How can we keep some normality
in their day to day lives?

599
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,139
We have, you know, we've asked
people to be guardians for them,

600
00:34:24,140 --> 00:34:26,500
if they're still underage, if
something should happen to us.

601
00:34:27,550 --> 00:34:31,929
I have close family members that
know where to locate things in my

602
00:34:31,929 --> 00:34:33,909
home if they need to access them.

603
00:34:34,220 --> 00:34:38,740
Documents, if they need to access
accounts and things, we have that set

604
00:34:38,740 --> 00:34:41,110
up so that that information's available.

605
00:34:42,220 --> 00:34:44,860
My paperwork's organised
and easy to locate.

606
00:34:45,370 --> 00:34:49,729
Uh, it's not, it's not, it's all
decluttered, like, so it's very easy to

607
00:34:49,730 --> 00:34:51,740
find what, what you need when you need it.

608
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:56,180
So I think those are all,
it's not just for in cases of.

609
00:34:56,390 --> 00:34:56,820
My own death.

610
00:34:57,030 --> 00:35:01,760
It's really about, um, other critical
events as well, that there's some

611
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,590
steps and resources for us to go to and
other people to go to if that occurred.

612
00:35:06,620 --> 00:35:06,960
Yeah.

613
00:35:08,540 --> 00:35:08,770
Lovely.

614
00:35:09,990 --> 00:35:14,080
Catherine Ashton: And are there any
cherished memories or traditions from

615
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:19,660
your family that you had as a child
that you find that you now honour in

616
00:35:19,660 --> 00:35:21,690
your own family with your own children?

617
00:35:23,030 --> 00:35:27,689
Arwen Dropmann: Yeah, probably around
seasonal events, so like Christmas

618
00:35:27,689 --> 00:35:32,575
and Easter, that's probably where the
traditions really Would be focused.

619
00:35:32,575 --> 00:35:34,795
I think that's pretty common
for a lot of families.

620
00:35:34,795 --> 00:35:40,505
It's those seasonal events where the
traditions come out and when my children

621
00:35:40,505 --> 00:35:46,225
were younger, I put a lot of effort
into building traditions for our family.

622
00:35:46,325 --> 00:35:49,664
They're older now, so they're not
as keen on them, but I'm hoping

623
00:35:49,665 --> 00:35:52,874
that when they're older, they will
revive them with their own family.

624
00:35:54,325 --> 00:35:55,385
Yeah, we can, we can

625
00:35:55,385 --> 00:35:56,635
Catherine Ashton: only hope, can't we?

626
00:35:56,655 --> 00:35:56,865
Yeah.

627
00:35:59,975 --> 00:36:04,355
And given your own personal experience,
is there any advice or encouragement that

628
00:36:04,365 --> 00:36:07,555
you'd like to share with others that we

629
00:36:07,565 --> 00:36:08,415
Arwen Dropmann: haven't
already touched on?

630
00:36:09,915 --> 00:36:17,390
I think there can be a lot of, I'll
do that later, in terms of Spaces.

631
00:36:17,390 --> 00:36:19,050
So I'll declutter later.

632
00:36:20,090 --> 00:36:23,560
One that I hear a lot is I'll
organise my photos when I retire.

633
00:36:23,820 --> 00:36:25,090
That one comes up a lot.

634
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,330
Like my retirement's this sort of
mystical time where we're going

635
00:36:28,330 --> 00:36:29,520
to have all this time and energy.

636
00:36:29,799 --> 00:36:31,959
So I think the future
generally is mystical.

637
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,500
We've got all this time and energy
in the future, so it'll happen later.

638
00:36:35,500 --> 00:36:38,130
It'll, I'll take, it'll
happen when I'm on holidays.

639
00:36:38,765 --> 00:36:43,185
When life settles down, which I think
if we are doing that, it will be never.

640
00:36:43,745 --> 00:36:47,955
Um, so I think with Dick that, and that
applies to things like decluttering,

641
00:36:48,415 --> 00:36:52,335
attending to sentimental items
and getting those sorted photos.

642
00:36:52,810 --> 00:36:58,480
But at paperwork, so it's very common
for me to, to meet people who haven't

643
00:36:58,490 --> 00:37:02,440
really attended to any filing or
paper organising for sort of like

644
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,079
a five to seven years time frame.

645
00:37:05,079 --> 00:37:07,690
So things have got way out of hand.

646
00:37:07,690 --> 00:37:11,319
It's very overwhelming and people
often don't know where their

647
00:37:11,319 --> 00:37:13,120
important documents are at this point.

648
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,050
So the passport's been put somewhere
safe and we don't know where that is,

649
00:37:16,490 --> 00:37:18,420
birth certificates in amongst a pile of.

650
00:37:18,485 --> 00:37:25,865
Old car bills and insurance policies
so often meet people at that point and

651
00:37:25,865 --> 00:37:29,935
there's always this later when I have
time when I have energy later and I

652
00:37:29,945 --> 00:37:33,565
think things like wills and power of
attorney getting your legal affairs.

653
00:37:34,190 --> 00:37:39,250
Financial affairs sorted often is being
put off till later, but unfortunately,

654
00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:46,169
like I said earlier, things can change in
an instant and, and later may not work.

655
00:37:46,410 --> 00:37:49,689
You know, it's very hard to declutter
if you have a change in health status.

656
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:51,599
So we don't always see
these things coming.

657
00:37:51,599 --> 00:37:56,930
So that was probably a very long way
to say, not putting things off to

658
00:37:57,050 --> 00:37:59,240
sort of a magical later time is to.

659
00:38:00,325 --> 00:38:03,065
Some, if things have got right away from
people, it can be very overwhelming,

660
00:38:03,065 --> 00:38:09,195
but just start doing, taking small steps
to sort of get your affairs and your,

661
00:38:09,235 --> 00:38:10,815
your house and everything in order.

662
00:38:11,875 --> 00:38:12,335
And what would

663
00:38:12,335 --> 00:38:15,695
Catherine Ashton: you suggest
to be sort of those first steps?

664
00:38:15,695 --> 00:38:18,115
Is it, you know, locate your passport?

665
00:38:19,594 --> 00:38:19,904
Arwen Dropmann: Yeah.

666
00:38:19,914 --> 00:38:26,115
I look, I think, yeah, that's
a really good question.

667
00:38:26,145 --> 00:38:32,095
I think it's colored by my own experience
though, because so if you were going to

668
00:38:32,095 --> 00:38:34,795
do one thing first, I think it would be.

669
00:38:35,605 --> 00:38:39,945
You know, locate your, your vital
documents, locate your birth certificates

670
00:38:39,945 --> 00:38:43,784
and your passport and to get your
wills and power of attorney sorted.

671
00:38:44,015 --> 00:38:46,095
I don't think that's where a
lot of people start though.

672
00:38:46,545 --> 00:38:50,585
They often start with the physical
decluttering because that's so much

673
00:38:50,605 --> 00:38:55,565
more in your face and it can feel
a little bit more achievable than.

674
00:38:56,230 --> 00:38:59,460
Thinking, because, because doing
wills and power, paperwork and powers

675
00:38:59,460 --> 00:39:02,210
of attorney, that actually requires
really thinking about your death.

676
00:39:02,620 --> 00:39:05,289
And I do think that that's
confronting for most of us.

677
00:39:05,340 --> 00:39:08,760
It also includes financial costs
and making appointments and

678
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,230
everyone is quite time poor.

679
00:39:10,590 --> 00:39:13,009
But I probably would say that's
where to start because that's

680
00:39:13,060 --> 00:39:16,629
the, those are the things that
the clutter can wait in a crisis.

681
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:22,140
Generally, unless it's causing the
crisis, but those things in a crisis

682
00:39:22,140 --> 00:39:25,979
are quite essential and those are
the things that will be, you'll

683
00:39:25,979 --> 00:39:29,640
miss and will make the time more
difficult if they're not in order.

684
00:39:29,910 --> 00:39:34,079
So that would be my advice,
but, uh, I don't think that's

685
00:39:34,150 --> 00:39:34,990
where a lot of people do start.

686
00:39:35,565 --> 00:39:38,685
So when, if I'm doing a decluttering
project with someone, usually we're

687
00:39:38,685 --> 00:39:43,925
doing the larger items, the things,
the kitchen, the decor and clothing.

688
00:39:44,075 --> 00:39:47,254
And then we often move to paperwork
because we've had to find it in

689
00:39:47,255 --> 00:39:48,405
all different parts of the house.

690
00:39:48,405 --> 00:39:52,964
So we just collate in one area and
then we do paperwork and we might

691
00:39:52,964 --> 00:39:54,595
have to do that for several hours.

692
00:39:55,495 --> 00:39:59,625
And then during that paperwork discussion,
I will talk with people about now,

693
00:40:00,115 --> 00:40:01,735
do you have your affairs in order?

694
00:40:03,130 --> 00:40:07,870
Have you got a will, have you got
a power of attorney, you need to

695
00:40:07,870 --> 00:40:11,289
see a solicitor to work out what
you need and to not ignore that.

696
00:40:11,290 --> 00:40:14,619
So that, that's the time where, and
we'll try and collect people's vital

697
00:40:14,620 --> 00:40:16,130
documents if we've located them.

698
00:40:16,319 --> 00:40:18,990
And if not, they've got it on
their list to do to get a copy of

699
00:40:19,010 --> 00:40:22,350
their birth certificate or to renew
their passport, that those sorts

700
00:40:22,350 --> 00:40:25,710
of things that would generally be
if I'm meeting someone, that's how

701
00:40:25,710 --> 00:40:26,940
I would often step them through.

702
00:40:28,510 --> 00:40:29,530
That's great to get

703
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,750
Catherine Ashton: an insight
to how that process works.

704
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:34,100
So thanks for that, Arwen.

705
00:40:34,510 --> 00:40:37,330
Is there anything else that
you'd like to cover up on today?

706
00:40:40,425 --> 00:40:44,635
Arwen Dropmann: No, I think we've done a
very holistic look at organisers and how

707
00:40:44,635 --> 00:40:46,665
that might intersect with end of life.

708
00:40:47,145 --> 00:40:49,685
Uh, so yeah, thanks for
the opportunity, Catherine.

709
00:40:51,385 --> 00:40:54,494
Catherine Ashton: We hope you enjoyed
today's episode of Don't Be Caught

710
00:40:54,525 --> 00:40:56,694
Dead, brought to you by Critical Info.

711
00:40:57,634 --> 00:41:01,894
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712
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719
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