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Renee Stamation: I can remember early
on in COVID, we weren't allowed to

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touch the patients and their loved ones
weren't allowed to be in the department

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with them when they passed away.

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And being the last person that Aunty Flo
got to speak to or the last human touch

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that she had before she passed on was a
really heavy burden for us as physicians.

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You know, it was a very,
very, very horrible period.

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So while we might look.

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like we don't care or are too busy.

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What it looks on the outside is
not always what the burden is that

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we actually carry on the inside.

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Catherine Ashton: Welcome to
Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast

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encouraging open conversations about
dying and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton,
founder of Critical Info.

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And I'm helping to bring your
stories of death back to life.

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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations

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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.

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We pay our respects to their elders,
past, present, and emerging, and

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extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Welcome Renee to the podcast.

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Thank you for being our guest.

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Now in full disclosure, I should
mention that we are best friends,

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and I should also mention that you've
just been recently appointed as the

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Medical Advisor to Critical Info.

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So, welcome.

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Renee Stamation: Thank you for having me.

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Now,

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Catherine Ashton: what specific aspects
of emergency medicine do you find

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the most fulfilling and rewarding?

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Uh,

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Renee Stamation: look, I think
it's the, the variety in terms

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of, of what comes in the door.

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I think it's the diversity of
the, the, the reasons that people

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present to the emergency department.

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people from all walks of
life, and essentially you're

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seeing them at their worst.

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So, you know, sometimes I'll
say to people, what were

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you planning to do today?

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Because no one ever
plans to come and see me.

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It's not, you know, on the top
of their schedule when they

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wake up on a Saturday morning.

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So I think for me, it's, It's about
helping someone when they're at

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their lowest, when they're scared,
when, you know, they need answers and

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they want things to be okay, to be
able to, to provide that humanness

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in a space that's, that's pretty
terrifying for a lot of people.

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You know, helping people navigate
that awful time for them and, uh,

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and I suppose also, you know, the
part of teaching and, and guiding

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and educating my colleagues as well.

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Um, the part that, that I really love
about my work on a day to day basis.

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Catherine Ashton: So, Renee, you obviously
have a real empathy for your patients

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that you see, and you obviously certainly
have told many stories to me over the

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time, but tell, tell me, what's probably
the most macabre story you've come across

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when you're, you know, or situation
you've come across when you're a doctor in

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Renee Stamation: emergency?

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Look, I think the, uh, the first one that
pops to mind is, uh, is not something

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that I've, that relates to my sort of
everyday work, but I do sometimes tell

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this story to, uh, to some of our junior
doctors about, um, spending some time

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at the Victorian Institute of Forensic
Medicine early in my career and being,

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uh, a person who was in the same spaces.

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the autopsies when they were being done.

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And there was this particular
day when I was assisting and the

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water police had pulled a body
out of the Maribyrnong River.

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And I was only new to Melbourne at that
time, and I didn't even know what the

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Maribyrnong River was or where it was.

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Uh, but I was part of the
autopsy on this, on this body.

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And I remember speaking to this lovely
young lady whose job it was to cut through

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the sternum and to remove all of the
organs from the body for the pathologist

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to, to then look for a cause of death.

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And I remember her telling me that.

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That she didn't actually wear any
underwear under her scrubs because

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the smell of the decomposing bodies
was so potent that it got into your

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hair and your skin and your underwear
and it couldn't be washed out.

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And so if she decided she wanted to wear
that underwear on another occasion, it,

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uh, it would smell like her workplace.

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And I thought that was quite an odd
topic until I was driving home that

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same afternoon, and all I could
smell in my hair and my skin was

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the smell of rotting human flesh.

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And without being very aware of it, I
actually was speeding along the road on

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my way home from, from work, and I got
pulled over by the very same water police.

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And when asked why I was speeding, and
I was only going a couple of Ks over

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the speed limit, but I was in such haste
to get home because I smelt so bad.

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And the water police, I put my window
down and they said to me, ma'am,

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do you realize you're speeding?

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And I said, yes.

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And I explained that story to
them that I needed to get home

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to have a shower because I smelt
like, what do they call it?

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They called it decomp.

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And the very kind policeman obviously
was, was taken aback by the smell

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of me coming out that car window.

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And he actually let me go home to my
shower without a, a speeding fine.

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So it was probably the most creative
story that you could ever hear

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for why someone was speeding.

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Yeah, it certainly

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Catherine Ashton: sounds like it.

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Catherine Ashton: And why was it the water
police that actually pulled you over?

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Renee Stamation:Because I was driving along Beach Road
and they were doing something down

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near the waterfront there, uh, bay,
and it was them who pulled me over.

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Oh, that's bizarre.

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Like

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Catherine Ashton: that
would never normally

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happen.

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Renee Stamation: No, no.

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What a day at the office.

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Catherine Ashton: Oh, that's hilarious.

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And talking about a day at the office,
how is your, you know, your, your everyday

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job affected and influenced your personal
perspective on death and end of life care?

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Renee Stamation: I think as an emergency
physician, you know, while end of life is

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not something that we deal with every day,
it's something that we deal with often.

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And, you know, I remember pre COVID
there used to be this, this principle

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that no one should ever die in the
emergency department, but then we were

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faced with a global pandemic and the
hospitals were, were just overwhelmed.

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And sadly now, you know, we don't
always have a bed to move that person

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to where they can can die comfortably
and with their family around them.

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So, you know, I think, I, I think dealing
with, uh, with death on a, at least weekly

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basis, uh, for me, it's commonplace.

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For me, it's something
that will happen to us all.

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And I think essentially, you know,
it's something that can be done well.

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It's something that the family can know
what their role is, can know what their

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task is, can know what their loved one,
Wanted them to be doing in that space,

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or it can be done really badly where, uh,
a strange children come from interstate

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and decide to have a war with the ones
who are at the bedside over what dad

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would have wanted when dad has just
finished telling you what he wants.

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But the, uh, you know, the child who's
racked with guilt for what they have

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or haven't done through their life
is then faced with, you know, their,

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uh, acts to grow the burden that they
carry and how it can all turn into

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a, a complete disaster in that space.

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And that's, that's just not what you want.

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Catherine Ashton: And that sounds
like you've witnessed that.

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Renee Stamation: Gosh, yeah, gosh, yeah.

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So, you know, when asked what, how I see
a good death and how I see a bad death,

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for me, it's the cohesiveness of that
family group and how they come together

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to provide those end of life wishes for
their loved ones, you know, in a time

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when their own personal circumstances
should be put aside and the focus should

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be on, you know, what would dad have
wanted in this, this space or, you know,

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was dad a religious man or was dad a
Collingwood supporter or, you know,

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what is it that he would want right now?

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Catherine Ashton: And so that's
interesting because there's always

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talk within the death care industry
about, you know, what's a good death,

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you know, do we, we want a good death?

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What is the definition of a good death?

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What is a good death to

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you?

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Renee Stamation: So a good death to me, I think,
is one where, where people have

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actually talked about it in a
time and space when it's not.

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imminently relevant when you've had that
discussion around the dinner table or

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over a cup of coffee to say no I don't
want a breathing tube and no I don't

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want someone doing chest compressions
on me if I have a heart attack.

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It's the planned, it's the discussed, it's
the well I'd like my my Ashes scattered in

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the water, or I'd like to be buried under
a tree or, uh, you know, the, the sort of

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conversations that I had where we can let
our loved ones know what we want, what we

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would like and what's meaningful to us.

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And then the, the, the contrast
with that is that, you know,

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there's been no discussion even.

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You know, if I share an example about
a patient who had a terminal cancer

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where palliative care was involved, yet
still the discussion hadn't happened.

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And, you know, I'm having it in the
emergency department where the patient

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is so confused and so, so close to
that end of life where they can't even

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have a conversation with me anymore.

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And as the physician, I'm just hoping and
praying that I'm not doing something to

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or for that patient that they wouldn't
have wanted when there's not been a

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discussion for me to know what, what's
the right way and what's the wrong way.

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And I, I go home at the end
of my day wondering whether

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I did the right thing or not.

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I think that's a massive burden
to place on the person who's

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providing end of life care for,
for you or, or for your loved one.

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It's, it's a horrible place to be.

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And it's the, uh, it's the days when
you go home at the end of the day and

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just wish that it went another way.

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Catherine Ashton: And you're looking
at from a medical perspective, but

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obviously there's emotions involved there.

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Renee Stamation: Of course.

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Yeah, of course.

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You know, you, you may not have met
this person before or, you know, in a

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small emergency department like I work
in from time to time, you might've

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met that patient 15 times prior.

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And I always.

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try to have that discussion
with patients when they're well.

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And I will often say to them, I know
that this is not relevant now, but

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let's talk about what you'd like the
end of your life to look like so that

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we can have some sort of documentation,
uh, of, of where the patient wants us

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to stop or how far they want us to go.

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And we can talk about their comorbidities
and their medical background and what.

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what we think is physician that's, that's
appropriate for them or not at a time when

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it's not stressful and it's not relevant.

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So that, you know, we have that documented
at a time when it is relevant and when

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it will actually help us to do the
right thing by you and certainly to

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make it less stressful for your family.

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Catherine Ashton:See, I find that really

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quite
interesting because I would, I

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would say that you are a rarity.

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in having those conversations.

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I've, I've heard about situations
where people have gone to their doctor

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and wanted to have paperwork signed
in relation to their advanced care

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directive and what their intentions are.

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And, you know, there is some doctors
that that this particular doctor didn't

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know the process and was concerned and
you know about actually signing that.

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So it's, it's interesting.

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I think that you would be a
rarity in relation to having those

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conversations and encouraging
people to have those conversations

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just based on what my personal

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experience has been.

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Renee Stamation: Yeah, look, I'd encourage everyone
to have that chat with your GP,

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you know, it doesn't matter how old
you are, uh, you might step out on

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the street and get hit by a bus.

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So just because you're not feeling
like you're approaching the

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chronological end of your life, I
think it's a, it's a discussion you

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can have with your GP at any point
and I would encourage you to do so.

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Next time you're in the emergency
department, talk to the physician

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about that and start to have those
discussions so that, so that your family.

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When they're at this point and
not carrying that entire burden of

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never having a discussion with you.

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And it doesn't, it doesn't have to be
a doom and gloom discussion, you know,

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if you sit around my dinner table at
any point of time with my teenage son.

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So there's a lot of discussion
about, uh, about this sort of

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stuff, but you know, I think from
what's going on at the football too.

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to the last bowel action, anyone who's
got, who's got teenage boys of any sort.

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Catherine Ashton: Yes, I can attest to that.

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It always turns to poo and farts.

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Yeah, I have
to agree, very, very true.

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Now just back on the question I asked
previously in relation to how your

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everyday life working as an emergency
doctor and dealing with death, how

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has that affected you personally?

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When you come home, how,
what impact has that

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had on you?

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Renee Stamation: I think it depends on, on the
type of shift that you have.

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Anyone who's sat in an emergency
department waiting room in the

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last 10 years will understand
how incredibly busy it is.

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And I think The challenge with that is
that when you've got someone who's at

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the end of their life or someone who's
incredibly sick and you're trying to save

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that life, uh, we just don't have the time
to providing the care that we would like.

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We don't have the time to sit at the
bedside and hold that patient's hand.

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And, uh, you know, there are
times when you come home and

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that burden is very heavy.

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I can remember early on in COVID, uh,
when we weren't allowed to touch the

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patients and Their loved ones weren't
allowed to be in the, in the department

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with them when they passed away.

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And, you know, being the, the, the last
person that Aunty Flo, uh, got to speak

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to or the last human touch that she
had before she passed on was a really

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heavy burden for us as physicians.

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You know, it was a very,
very, very horrible period.

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So, you know, while we, while we
might look, uh, like we, don't care

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or don't have time or are too busy,
uh, what it looks on the outside is

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not always what the burden is that
we actually carry on the inside.

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You know, underneath we are humans
and we love and we grieve and we

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bleed the same as anyone else.

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And so I think the, those competing
demands of providing care at end of life,

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but resuscitating the, the sick person in
the recess cubicle who's just come out

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of a multi multi vehicle accident or.

250
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You know, the, the little three year
old with the tonsillitis, we care

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just as much about every one of those
patients, but often we, we can't

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provide the care that we'd like.

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And I, I think that's probably
the heaviest burden that, that

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I feel like I, I bear at times.

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Catherine Ashton: And

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I suppose that
also, it must add an extra layer

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when throughout your entire career,
you know, death is viewed as.

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Well, my perception is that
death is viewed as a failure

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of a doctor.

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Renee Stamation: I think there are certain specialties
in medicine where jokes are made about,

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um, and all courtesy to, to all the
palliative care physicians out there or

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the oncologists, but jokes are made about.

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you know, some, uh, some physicians
still wanting to do CPR on

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the person who died last week.

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I think as an emergency physician, we,
we see death often and we're pretty

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good at making an assessment fairly
early on about, What the chances are

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that we might be able to, to resuscitate
a patient and certainly should we

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resuscitate them, what are their wishes?

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What are our chances?

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I think in emergency medicine, we're
also very good at, at knowing what a good

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death looks like and being equally happy
to provide a, a passing away with, with a

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patient where they're not in pain, where
they're not in distress, with a family.

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Know what, what to do and
know what their role is.

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I think.

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I think that's a big part of our job
too, so we can do that very well.

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Um, and I think we're also very
making the decision when the

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time is for that to be our focus.

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I know at some stage we've talked about
how we navigate those conversations,

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those end of life conversations
with, with patients and families.

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And, you know, I've, I've kind of
alluded to it before about, it's so

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much easier when that the family has
had a clear conversation and even

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when your death is expected or not.

283
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You know, the one, the one guarantee
of life is death and taxes, don't they

284
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say, but it makes it so much easier
when the family had the discussion

285
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and, and they know what you, you want.

286
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So, you know, it certainly makes
life for, for me in the emergency

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room, um, a whole lot easier.

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Catherine Ashton: And it seems that,
you know, you, you've got a good sense

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of humour when it comes to dealing
with the frenetic pace that obviously

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must, you must be involved with every
day in a, an emergency department.

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00:16:45,849 --> 00:16:50,090
Renee Stamation: I think as emergency
services, you know, police, fireys.

292
00:16:50,475 --> 00:16:54,145
ambo's, your emergency medicine
nurses and doctors, I think we've

293
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all got a bit of a dark side.

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In fact, I am part of a little
group on Facebook, um, where a

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lot of that dark humour is shared.

296
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And clearly it's got to be a closed group
because I think some, some of the ways

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that we deal with that grief and what
we face every day might be, um, a little

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odd for some people from the outside.

299
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But I think as emergency physicians, we
all, we're all a little quirky in a way.

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Catherine Ashton: And is that also,
you know, part of your support network

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that you have to actually deal with the

302
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day to day?

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00:17:24,420 --> 00:17:28,260
Renee Stamation: Yeah, I think, uh, you know, you
generally find that the team that

304
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are around you in that resuscitation
situation for, for good or bad.

305
00:17:32,140 --> 00:17:36,519
Whichever way it's turned out in
the end, that team, you bond so

306
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tightly as a result of working, uh,
at those extremes of life and death.

307
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Particularly the birthing and all
the, all the, uh, the passing on of a.

308
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of a patient, uh, they're really
incredibly emotionally charged

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times and, and your team does bond.

310
00:17:50,860 --> 00:17:54,620
You know, there's times when, when the
ambulance services will, will stay in

311
00:17:54,620 --> 00:17:58,980
the resuss with us and, and you build
quite a unit with those people because

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of the, the things that you face together
and the things that you've worked so

313
00:18:02,810 --> 00:18:06,210
hard to try and achieve together, uh,
whether you've failed or whether you've

314
00:18:06,210 --> 00:18:10,520
actually managed to succeed there, um,
but it really does bring you together.

315
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,775
And it, it, it, it, It enables you
to understand each other on a level

316
00:18:14,775 --> 00:18:19,345
that I don't think anybody else in the
community, uh, could even fathom, you

317
00:18:19,345 --> 00:18:23,044
know, to be able to come home and share
those discussions with my husband or my

318
00:18:23,044 --> 00:18:27,925
daughter, uh, you know, certainly there'll
be an abridged version of what happened

319
00:18:27,925 --> 00:18:32,134
in the office that day, uh, you know,
the reality of, of what really goes on

320
00:18:32,134 --> 00:18:38,425
there, uh, could only ever be, um, uh, you
know, the, the, the general public would

321
00:18:38,425 --> 00:18:41,895
probably just scratch the surface of what
we really go through on any given day.

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00:18:44,264 --> 00:18:47,185
Catherine Ashton: Thanks for sharing that,
Renee, because that is quite personal,

323
00:18:47,425 --> 00:18:48,765
the challenges you do go through.

324
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Like I, I know that you share a certain
aspect with it with me, but I know

325
00:18:53,575 --> 00:18:55,825
that there's a lot that you, you carry.

326
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Has it, Made you, you know, think about,
you know, God, creation, Allah, you

327
00:19:04,455 --> 00:19:06,495
know, whatever being that might be.

328
00:19:06,495 --> 00:19:10,835
Is that, have you, you found some
sort of faith or spirituality

329
00:19:10,845 --> 00:19:12,065
to try and get you through

330
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your everyday, I think?

331
00:19:13,875 --> 00:19:14,585
Renee Stamation: Or some, um.

332
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Uh, who work in this sort of
field have some sort of sense

333
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:21,210
of something bigger than us.

334
00:19:21,270 --> 00:19:26,030
And, you know, it's, it's interesting
how many people you find who work

335
00:19:26,030 --> 00:19:30,229
in emergency services have got some
sort of faith beyond themselves.

336
00:19:30,230 --> 00:19:35,599
And I think, uh, you know, maybe
that's our way of trying to explain the

337
00:19:35,599 --> 00:19:39,719
unexplainable or to try and find meaning
in a place where there seems like nothing

338
00:19:39,719 --> 00:19:41,929
but chaos, you know, and that can be.

339
00:19:42,435 --> 00:19:47,665
It can be religion, it can be football, it
can be, you know, sometimes the bad stuff

340
00:19:47,665 --> 00:19:54,175
like eating and alcohol, uh, but I think
we all search for meaning somewhere, uh,

341
00:19:54,245 --> 00:19:58,674
and you know, for me, I do believe that
there are, you know, there's something

342
00:19:58,675 --> 00:20:02,314
bigger than myself out there and I think
I have to, in order to get up each day and

343
00:20:02,314 --> 00:20:06,875
keep going and doing what I do, I think if
you believed that there was chaos and your

344
00:20:06,875 --> 00:20:11,965
role was trying to make sense and order of
the chaos, you might, you might find that.

345
00:20:12,355 --> 00:20:16,435
That role a bit burdensome and,
you know, essentially not be able

346
00:20:16,435 --> 00:20:18,025
to, to, to continue each day.

347
00:20:18,025 --> 00:20:21,465
So I think you do have to think
there's something, some bigger reason

348
00:20:21,465 --> 00:20:24,705
in it than, than just you and, and,
and the patient in front of you.

349
00:20:26,515 --> 00:20:27,025
Well,

350
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yeah,

351
00:20:27,705 --> 00:20:28,725
Catherine Ashton: I'm, I'm sure.

352
00:20:29,500 --> 00:20:30,730
Yeah, it's, it's interesting.

353
00:20:31,149 --> 00:20:34,100
It makes me think, you know, to support
the role that you do and what you

354
00:20:34,110 --> 00:20:36,159
have to deal with on a daily basis,

355
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:37,370
how

356
00:20:37,370 --> 00:20:41,399
Catherine Ashton: do you see the role
of, you know, think services like death

357
00:20:41,399 --> 00:20:47,770
doulas, palliative care workers, those
people in supporting those families?

358
00:20:49,504 --> 00:20:50,875
in these situations.

359
00:20:51,695 --> 00:20:55,115
Renee Stamation: Look, I think, um,
I think that, that death is done

360
00:20:55,115 --> 00:20:56,895
differently by lots of different people.

361
00:20:56,895 --> 00:21:00,135
And, you know, we just talked before
about different peoples, you know,

362
00:21:00,195 --> 00:21:02,754
looking for faith or, or rhyme or reason.

363
00:21:03,204 --> 00:21:07,314
Uh, you know, certainly it's something
that different cultures do differently.

364
00:21:07,315 --> 00:21:11,135
And I think there is absolutely,
you know, a broader team that,

365
00:21:11,205 --> 00:21:12,855
that pulls together in these times.

366
00:21:12,855 --> 00:21:15,855
And I think we all share a little
bit of the, the part of the process.

367
00:21:16,814 --> 00:21:21,320
I can't help, but, uh, But share a
funny story, a personal experience,

368
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:26,450
actually about a death doula, who
I, I tell the story sort of fairly

369
00:21:26,450 --> 00:21:28,120
often because I find it hysterical.

370
00:21:29,590 --> 00:21:35,589
Um, a friend of the family
passed away and his wife.

371
00:21:35,785 --> 00:21:41,795
Um, unexpectedly he was younger with
sort of youngish early teenage kids and

372
00:21:41,865 --> 00:21:44,185
it was a death that, that was expected.

373
00:21:44,195 --> 00:21:50,315
He had terminal cancer and his, his
wife who was an incredibly educated

374
00:21:50,445 --> 00:21:54,933
IT specialist, you know, a bright,
fabulous young woman had engaged

375
00:21:54,933 --> 00:21:57,554
the services of a death doula.

376
00:21:58,175 --> 00:22:04,925
And to the shock and perhaps horror and
dismay of the teenage children, uh, they'd

377
00:22:04,925 --> 00:22:10,975
made the decision that was right for her
to keep his body after he passed on in

378
00:22:10,985 --> 00:22:16,274
the bedroom on the bed with a cooling
mat underneath for a number of days.

379
00:22:16,274 --> 00:22:20,614
I'm not quite sure who, who decided
the number of days that was appropriate

380
00:22:20,614 --> 00:22:22,564
for him to remain on that cooling mat.

381
00:22:23,165 --> 00:22:27,315
But there was a statement from
one of the teenagers about.

382
00:22:27,780 --> 00:22:31,280
not wanting to go into the bedroom
because there was a dead man in there.

383
00:22:31,990 --> 00:22:37,850
And essentially, subsequently, the,
the coffin, which was a chipboard

384
00:22:37,889 --> 00:22:41,679
box, I believe that the children
had drawn art all over, had

385
00:22:41,809 --> 00:22:46,309
subsequently sat on the dining room
table for a number of days prior to.

386
00:22:46,419 --> 00:22:49,879
to the funeral and it
was held in the house.

387
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:51,250
And then.

388
00:22:51,399 --> 00:22:53,050
Catherine Ashton: And that was the
funeral that was held in the house?

389
00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:56,090
Renee Stamation: The funeral was held
in the house and then a number of

390
00:22:56,100 --> 00:23:01,709
the family members had to remove the
coffin from the house down a steep

391
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:06,470
flight of stairs because they lived on
a bush block that only had one access

392
00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:08,030
sort of up and down a cliff face.

393
00:23:08,550 --> 00:23:13,150
And a number of them, including one
of the local ambulance officers had

394
00:23:13,180 --> 00:23:17,429
to work together to try and get this
very heavy coffin down those stairs.

395
00:23:17,450 --> 00:23:19,629
And it wasn't without incident.

396
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,990
I won't say any, any more than that,
but let's just say that box did not

397
00:23:23,990 --> 00:23:27,979
remain closed for the entire duration
of the transport down the cliff face.

398
00:23:28,165 --> 00:23:28,915
Catherine Ashton: Oh my goodness.

399
00:23:29,475 --> 00:23:35,145
Renee Stamation: So I, I kind of think of that
for me as being one of the worst,

400
00:23:35,555 --> 00:23:37,075
almost macabre stories I've heard.

401
00:23:37,495 --> 00:23:41,124
Certainly I wasn't there to experience
it, but it was the right, uh,

402
00:23:41,175 --> 00:23:45,985
end of life process for the, the,
the person who organized it all.

403
00:23:45,985 --> 00:23:49,745
So while that's completely different
to what I would pick for my own loved

404
00:23:49,745 --> 00:23:50,925
ones, that was what was right for her.

405
00:23:51,405 --> 00:23:55,904
And, you know, in hindsight, it certainly
helped her with that grieving process, but

406
00:23:55,905 --> 00:23:57,475
I can't help but see the funny side of it.

407
00:23:58,340 --> 00:23:58,679
Catherine Ashton: And

408
00:23:58,699 --> 00:24:01,779
the children in
the end, did they, you said that they

409
00:24:02,060 --> 00:24:05,459
actually decorated the, the card, the box?

410
00:24:05,460 --> 00:24:05,839
Renee Stamation: Yeah,

411
00:24:05,839 --> 00:24:06,119
yeah.

412
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:07,279
And the, the coffin?

413
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,479
Drew some artwork and some things
that were meaningful all over it and

414
00:24:09,479 --> 00:24:13,709
I think in hindsight they've actually
had a really healthy grief process.

415
00:24:13,709 --> 00:24:18,800
I think it, you know, while it seemed
all very new and creative to me, I

416
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,745
think um, um, Turned out really well.

417
00:24:21,754 --> 00:24:25,185
So I think we just need to have an
open mind that everyone does something

418
00:24:25,235 --> 00:24:29,324
differently and, you know, I can't help
but think of the, I was only pondering

419
00:24:29,324 --> 00:24:33,425
about this this morning, about the whole
concept of a birthing plan, and I'm

420
00:24:33,425 --> 00:24:38,254
going to go completely off piste here,
but when we, if you're, if you know of

421
00:24:38,514 --> 00:24:43,435
someone who's, you know, had kids or, or,
Recently, as given birth in the last 10

422
00:24:43,445 --> 00:24:47,625
years, there's this concept of a birthing
plan where we go along to antenatal

423
00:24:47,675 --> 00:24:51,725
classes and you learn to breathe and
you've got your support person there and

424
00:24:51,725 --> 00:24:55,124
you write this plan out of all of the
things that you do and you don't want.

425
00:24:55,945 --> 00:25:00,595
And most of us know that That it
goes nothing closely to the best

426
00:25:00,895 --> 00:25:04,825
thing, and you probably end up with
all the things that you didn't want.

427
00:25:04,825 --> 00:25:07,845
But I just wonder why we
don't do that for when we die.

428
00:25:08,285 --> 00:25:10,895
You know, we have this thought
out plan for when we're going

429
00:25:10,895 --> 00:25:14,095
to bring another human into the
world, but why don't we have one

430
00:25:14,425 --> 00:25:16,035
for when we go out the other side?

431
00:25:16,515 --> 00:25:18,310
I, I actually think it
will be really useful.

432
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:19,810
Catherine Ashton: I
totally agree with you.

433
00:25:19,815 --> 00:25:23,410
And, and that was something that, I went
to a conference last year and it really

434
00:25:23,410 --> 00:25:29,380
struck me that, you know, I, I have a,
a, a son who's, who's now 19 and you're

435
00:25:29,380 --> 00:25:34,960
well aware of, and, and I remember having
to go to, you know, classes before he

436
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,520
was born and the packs that you got
and the information and then the, the

437
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,840
follow-up care with the maternal child
health nurse coming out to the home.

438
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:45,250
And, and I just thought.

439
00:25:46,140 --> 00:25:50,460
There is so much thought and planning
that has gone into giving birth,

440
00:25:50,820 --> 00:25:55,489
but you know, not everyone gives
birth, but we're all going to die.

441
00:25:55,529 --> 00:25:57,870
Like you said before, death
and taxes, they're the two

442
00:25:57,870 --> 00:25:59,810
things that we cannot escape.

443
00:26:00,090 --> 00:26:01,609
And yet it's something that

444
00:26:01,859 --> 00:26:03,130
Renee Stamation: has not, well,

445
00:26:03,615 --> 00:26:06,235
Catherine Ashton: Far as I, I
can see, hasn't really registered

446
00:26:06,535 --> 00:26:09,885
with organ, you know, government
organizations that this is something

447
00:26:09,885 --> 00:26:12,055
that needs to be paid attention to.

448
00:26:12,395 --> 00:26:17,465
And people need to have some sort
of support and care that is, and

449
00:26:17,465 --> 00:26:19,575
conversations need to be had around it.

450
00:26:19,604 --> 00:26:23,425
And hopefully us having this
conversation now can, can start

451
00:26:23,425 --> 00:26:24,845
those conversations as well.

452
00:26:25,705 --> 00:26:29,665
You've touched on a few situations that
you've come across when you're dealing

453
00:26:29,665 --> 00:26:34,045
with the family in, in relation to
emergency and, and sort of end of life

454
00:26:34,045 --> 00:26:35,955
and, and those difficult scenarios.

455
00:26:36,255 --> 00:26:40,685
Have you ever found that when you're in
one of those scenarios and someone is,

456
00:26:40,915 --> 00:26:44,665
it's very evident that, that they will
not survive and they're going to die?

457
00:26:45,135 --> 00:26:50,305
Have you ever found that there, you
haven't been able to access information

458
00:26:50,305 --> 00:26:55,295
that could have helped with their,
their, you know, I don't know, with

459
00:26:55,295 --> 00:26:59,234
their, not, I can't say recovery because
if they're dead, but, or the, you

460
00:26:59,235 --> 00:27:02,905
know, with the
resuscitation process or, look,

461
00:27:02,905 --> 00:27:04,904
Renee Stamation: it happens on a, on a daily basis.

462
00:27:06,675 --> 00:27:10,495
Even the, the person who's
coming, who's got delirium from an

463
00:27:10,495 --> 00:27:14,674
infection or the person who just
doesn't have great health literacy.

464
00:27:14,675 --> 00:27:18,700
And, you know, while there's that,
incredibly fabulous My Health Record

465
00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:20,890
that our government has funded.

466
00:27:20,950 --> 00:27:22,850
A lot of people have opted out of that.

467
00:27:22,990 --> 00:27:27,280
I could, you know, I just have to
encourage you to, to make sure your

468
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,549
GP's uploading the data onto that
and, and to tell you how incredibly

469
00:27:31,549 --> 00:27:36,230
important that app is for us to be able
to look at and just to even work out

470
00:27:36,230 --> 00:27:37,890
your allergies and your medications.

471
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,960
It's so useful for us when
we're providing frontline care

472
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,870
to, to know your background.

473
00:27:45,025 --> 00:27:48,585
I need to share a story recently,
you know, as recently as a couple of

474
00:27:48,585 --> 00:27:54,144
weeks ago, where I had a patient who
thankfully we'd received a bat call.

475
00:27:54,334 --> 00:27:58,664
Now, for those of you, it's not
about Batman and Robin, but in every

476
00:27:58,664 --> 00:28:02,285
emergency department is a bright red
phone that essentially looks very

477
00:28:02,285 --> 00:28:04,715
much like a 1970s phone with the.

478
00:28:05,225 --> 00:28:09,545
Catherine Ashton: Um, yeah, I've seen one of those,
the handset and the push buttons,

479
00:28:10,095 --> 00:28:13,395
Renee Stamation: nonetheless, a back call came through
from the ambulance service who were

480
00:28:13,415 --> 00:28:18,605
bringing in a, uh, a patient who had an
unrecordable blood pressure and a heart

481
00:28:18,605 --> 00:28:20,905
rate that was very, very, very low.

482
00:28:21,450 --> 00:28:27,030
And they gave us their working diagnosis
and essentially the gentleman had been

483
00:28:27,030 --> 00:28:30,370
in our department no longer than a
couple of minutes and we had worked out

484
00:28:30,370 --> 00:28:35,510
what his diagnosis was and that this
was going to be the end of his life.

485
00:28:36,019 --> 00:28:41,145
And in that state, his Poor wife,
you know, grief and distress.

486
00:28:41,145 --> 00:28:45,564
She could barely give us anything about
his medical history, his allergies.

487
00:28:45,945 --> 00:28:48,495
And it was only after that
gentleman had passed away when I

488
00:28:48,495 --> 00:28:49,964
was writing his death certificate.

489
00:28:49,995 --> 00:28:54,245
And, you know, I realized I knew
nothing about that gentleman

490
00:28:54,294 --> 00:28:55,529
and then I had to start.

491
00:28:55,680 --> 00:29:00,810
Digging for data to work out what actually
caused him to end up in this situation.

492
00:29:00,820 --> 00:29:05,660
And four hours later, after digging
through records and finally being

493
00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:08,780
able to fill out that, that death
certificate, we, we realized that,

494
00:29:08,919 --> 00:29:13,629
that, that man had actually had an
untimely death and a preventable death.

495
00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:17,590
And I think that situation was the
worst when we then had to bring his

496
00:29:17,590 --> 00:29:20,280
wife back and explain to her that, that.

497
00:29:21,105 --> 00:29:24,235
Ah, his death could have been
prevented and, and we would need

498
00:29:24,235 --> 00:29:25,345
to get in touch with a coroner.

499
00:29:26,065 --> 00:29:30,775
And that, you know, that is not the way
you want your loved ones to pass away.

500
00:29:30,775 --> 00:29:34,215
It's not, it's not the way I would
choose my own death if I knew that

501
00:29:34,215 --> 00:29:37,945
my loved ones would be in that
much distress and so distraught.

502
00:29:37,955 --> 00:29:40,635
So, you know, you ask
me, does it ever happen?

503
00:29:40,705 --> 00:29:44,055
I would say it happens incredibly
regularly and it's not just end of life.

504
00:29:44,055 --> 00:29:47,685
It's, It's on a daily basis when
someone can't provide us their

505
00:29:47,685 --> 00:29:49,485
medical history or their information.

506
00:29:49,885 --> 00:29:53,765
A number of times when we're, we're
working on a John Doe or a Jane Doe in the

507
00:29:53,765 --> 00:29:58,035
emergency department, when no one knows
who they are or any of their history.

508
00:29:58,045 --> 00:30:00,045
So it's incredibly common.

509
00:30:00,045 --> 00:30:04,445
And, and you wonder why you wait so
long in the, in the emergency department

510
00:30:04,445 --> 00:30:09,115
waiting room, it's because we're trundling
around trying to find data in archives

511
00:30:09,115 --> 00:30:12,135
and calling GPs and, and trying to.

512
00:30:12,205 --> 00:30:15,595
to dig up information so that
we can ensure that we care for a

513
00:30:15,595 --> 00:30:17,345
patient in the most appropriate way.

514
00:30:18,565 --> 00:30:22,525
Catherine Ashton: It's interesting
that when you, you say that the, the

515
00:30:22,525 --> 00:30:28,535
grief of this particular situation
you're talking about, it's interesting

516
00:30:28,535 --> 00:30:31,825
because I'm sure that that person,
when they went to their doctor.

517
00:30:32,470 --> 00:30:35,450
You know, they probably went to
that appointment by themselves.

518
00:30:36,020 --> 00:30:39,370
They probably went to repeated
appointments by themselves

519
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:40,620
over periods of time.

520
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:46,230
And probably never had a conversation
with their partner about what was

521
00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:48,020
going on in relation to their health.

522
00:30:48,905 --> 00:30:53,825
So perhaps it's the fact that we need to
have conversations not only about what

523
00:30:53,855 --> 00:30:58,835
our death should look like and what our
wishes are for death, but also what's

524
00:30:58,835 --> 00:31:04,365
going on in relation to our health on
an ongoing basis, would that be correct

525
00:31:04,365 --> 00:31:04,785
in saying?

526
00:31:05,740 --> 00:31:10,290
Renee Stamation: I think, I think sometimes, you know,
doctors, we can be accused of doctor

527
00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:15,700
speak, uh, we talk to you in a dialect
that often patients don't understand.

528
00:31:15,700 --> 00:31:17,440
We talk about health literacy a lot.

529
00:31:17,940 --> 00:31:23,490
I, I work between a city private emergency
department and I work in rural Victoria

530
00:31:23,490 --> 00:31:28,520
as well with health, health literacy
and awareness of what's going on, uh, in

531
00:31:28,530 --> 00:31:31,155
one's life is is so completely different.

532
00:31:31,505 --> 00:31:34,855
So I think those discussions are
incredibly important to have with the

533
00:31:34,855 --> 00:31:37,015
physician and to have with family members.

534
00:31:37,015 --> 00:31:39,435
And if you, if you're not sure why
you're on a medication or if you're

535
00:31:39,435 --> 00:31:43,755
not sure what something means, then
that discussion, uh, and to talk

536
00:31:43,765 --> 00:31:46,995
about, well, what are the implications
of this and where is this headed?

537
00:31:47,985 --> 00:31:51,675
Catherine Ashton: And I find that
sometimes when you go to an appointment

538
00:31:52,145 --> 00:31:56,375
at a doctor, like I've actually now,
with obviously with my chronic, my

539
00:31:56,375 --> 00:31:59,575
chronic pain and the issues that I've
had to deal with since a car accident,

540
00:31:59,895 --> 00:32:05,335
I actually now write a little list and
then I always, I, when I have been given,

541
00:32:05,365 --> 00:32:09,335
because obviously I see specialists
and, and then I see my normal GP.

542
00:32:09,615 --> 00:32:14,785
What I've started doing now is also when I
go and get a script made, I make sure that

543
00:32:14,785 --> 00:32:17,925
if it's a new script, I check with the
pharmacist that it's not going to actually

544
00:32:18,365 --> 00:32:21,225
mix or interact with the

545
00:32:21,275 --> 00:32:24,045
Catherine Ashton: medications that
I'm actually currently on, that he

546
00:32:24,045 --> 00:32:26,135
also knows that I'm actually taking.

547
00:32:26,515 --> 00:32:30,425
So what other things can you
add from your experience?

548
00:32:30,500 --> 00:32:34,300
That's just something that I've learnt
personally, but what other advice could

549
00:32:34,300 --> 00:32:40,620
you give people, I suppose, to, you
know, prepare themselves or improve their

550
00:32:40,620 --> 00:32:43,170
literacy around their health, medical

551
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,170
Renee Stamation: information,
that sort of thing?

552
00:32:46,970 --> 00:32:50,390
I think one of the most useful
things that I've seen someone have,

553
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,275
and Honestly, it would have taken
them no more than 30 seconds to do.

554
00:32:54,285 --> 00:32:57,015
It was one particular morning when
they were taking their medications.

555
00:32:57,015 --> 00:33:00,415
They lined all the boxes up with the
labels facing to the front so you

556
00:33:00,415 --> 00:33:03,805
could tell the milligrams or micrograms
and how many tablets they took.

557
00:33:03,805 --> 00:33:05,605
And they took a picture
of it on their iPhone.

558
00:33:06,225 --> 00:33:11,505
And to be able in a heartbeat to be able
to have somebody show you that picture and

559
00:33:11,505 --> 00:33:15,625
you know exactly what their, their, their
past history is and their medications.

560
00:33:15,625 --> 00:33:20,185
And, you know, all it took was a
thought and someone to actually think

561
00:33:20,195 --> 00:33:23,525
about what it might be like to be
that physician scrambling for data

562
00:33:23,825 --> 00:33:25,845
in one of those critical situations.

563
00:33:26,085 --> 00:33:27,625
So something like that is so easy.

564
00:33:27,875 --> 00:33:30,775
And then the other end of the spectrum
is where you get these fabulous people

565
00:33:30,775 --> 00:33:35,780
who've got their entire medical history
on their phone or somewhere accessible

566
00:33:35,790 --> 00:33:39,010
or printed out for you and they say
to you, Oh, you can keep that copy.

567
00:33:39,580 --> 00:33:44,930
And it is such a delight to have one of
those patients who is so across it all.

568
00:33:45,430 --> 00:33:48,050
But then the other end of the
spectrum, you know, there's various

569
00:33:48,060 --> 00:33:52,250
things I can talk about a man
yesterday who we talk about this.

570
00:33:52,650 --> 00:33:53,340
term of Dr.

571
00:33:53,340 --> 00:33:53,820
Google.

572
00:33:54,090 --> 00:33:55,793
He doctored YouTubed.

573
00:33:55,793 --> 00:33:59,190
And he was a bright man.

574
00:33:59,210 --> 00:34:03,360
He told me that his medical knowledge
had come from being a long term

575
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:04,920
investor in biomedical science.

576
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,520
And he actually had an incredibly
good health literacy, but had

577
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,020
actually self diagnosed, uh, from Dr.

578
00:34:11,020 --> 00:34:11,820
YouTube.

579
00:34:12,350 --> 00:34:17,420
And It was actually sadly right when
we did all the formal tests, he, he had

580
00:34:17,420 --> 00:34:19,410
actually accurately diagnosed himself.

581
00:34:19,460 --> 00:34:22,990
So, you know, that, that health
literacy, well, we laughed about Dr.

582
00:34:22,990 --> 00:34:27,290
YouTube because it's not a term I had
ever, had ever passed my lips before that.

583
00:34:27,290 --> 00:34:30,840
But I had said to him next time,
please come sooner, come and talk to

584
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,600
us about this stuff before you, Dr.

585
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,410
YouTube, you know, when you've
got these symptoms, you need to go

586
00:34:35,410 --> 00:34:38,340
and see your doctor, you need to
present to the emergency department

587
00:34:38,390 --> 00:34:40,940
because early on, there might be
something that we can do about it.

588
00:34:42,315 --> 00:34:42,765
Catherine Ashton: And

589
00:34:43,235 --> 00:34:47,015
you hear recently
that with everything that's going on

590
00:34:47,025 --> 00:34:52,815
in relation to the change in billing
practices with, with medical centers,

591
00:34:53,345 --> 00:34:58,475
you know, it is the concern that
people are actually looking at YouTube.

592
00:34:58,630 --> 00:34:59,670
They're looking at Dr.

593
00:34:59,670 --> 00:35:00,210
Google.

594
00:35:00,510 --> 00:35:03,350
They're even looking at TikTok now.

595
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:04,230
Yes.

596
00:35:04,270 --> 00:35:10,250
The statistics I heard the other day on,
on how many people now look at TikTok for

597
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:16,160
news and for information in relation to
health, et cetera, is quite astronomical.

598
00:35:16,180 --> 00:35:22,170
I can't recall the figures, but how
would you suggest if people are doing

599
00:35:22,170 --> 00:35:25,220
it tough, you know, what do you suggest

600
00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:26,030
for them to do?

601
00:35:27,630 --> 00:35:31,520
Renee Stamation: Let's just say I am no dancer, so
you will not find me on TikTok.

602
00:35:34,100 --> 00:35:39,040
But look, essentially, you know, you
can, you can search any number of

603
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,320
symptoms on the internet and they'll
give you a gazillion different possible

604
00:35:42,330 --> 00:35:46,960
diagnoses for those, all of which,
you know, may or may not fit your

605
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:48,650
background or your other risk factors.

606
00:35:48,660 --> 00:35:49,890
So while Dr.

607
00:35:49,890 --> 00:35:54,080
Google exists, and we can't say
it doesn't exist, and it certainly

608
00:35:54,350 --> 00:35:55,950
presents a bunch of ideas.

609
00:35:56,020 --> 00:35:58,080
It makes patients incredibly stressed.

610
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:02,020
And, you know, if you Google the sky is
pink, you'll find 10 examples of that.

611
00:36:02,050 --> 00:36:04,960
If you Google the sky is green,
you'll find an equal number.

612
00:36:05,340 --> 00:36:08,310
So whatever you're searching,
you'll, you'll find that answer

613
00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:09,600
if that's what you're looking for.

614
00:36:09,610 --> 00:36:13,670
So, you know, I would encourage
patients to, to utilize telehealth.

615
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,750
I would encourage patients to utilize
virtual emergency departments.

616
00:36:17,750 --> 00:36:20,120
You know, there are ways
of, of seeking out that.

617
00:36:20,315 --> 00:36:23,455
care that don't require a face
to face consultation anymore.

618
00:36:23,455 --> 00:36:26,185
You know, recently I just
needed some scripts updated.

619
00:36:26,225 --> 00:36:30,325
Well, I didn't go and take up an
hour or half an hour of my GP's time.

620
00:36:30,685 --> 00:36:33,525
I essentially booked a telehealth
consultant in five minutes.

621
00:36:33,525 --> 00:36:34,885
We had that all done and dusted.

622
00:36:35,165 --> 00:36:36,195
I'd not left the home.

623
00:36:36,205 --> 00:36:36,955
In fact, I was.

624
00:36:37,090 --> 00:36:39,180
sitting at home still in my loungewear.

625
00:36:39,630 --> 00:36:42,730
And to me, I thought that was
a fabulous utilization of my

626
00:36:42,730 --> 00:36:44,340
own time and her time as well.

627
00:36:44,730 --> 00:36:48,180
So, you know, there are, there are
changing ways that we can consult

628
00:36:48,180 --> 00:36:52,080
with our physicians and, you know,
certainly in, in rural areas, we

629
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,820
know that it's a, it's a three week
wait to get in to see the doctor.

630
00:36:55,450 --> 00:36:59,140
And as a result, people are turning
up to the emergency department so

631
00:36:59,140 --> 00:37:00,400
much later than they should be.

632
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,810
You know, the appendicitis
is now perforated, or the

633
00:37:03,810 --> 00:37:05,360
gallbladder is now gangrenous.

634
00:37:05,895 --> 00:37:09,595
you know, if you've got pain and if you're
unwell, then, then you need to come to the

635
00:37:09,595 --> 00:37:14,025
emergency department and, and you'll see
a nurse, you'll be triaged and you'll be

636
00:37:14,025 --> 00:37:15,815
triaged accordingly to how unwell you are.

637
00:37:16,125 --> 00:37:19,825
And, and the truth is that, you
know, the patients who are not

638
00:37:19,825 --> 00:37:22,915
unwell or late, but the patients who
are unwell, we will see you'll be

639
00:37:22,915 --> 00:37:24,465
at the top of the triage category.

640
00:37:24,945 --> 00:37:27,335
That's our job essentially
to keep everybody alive.

641
00:37:27,765 --> 00:37:29,785
But I would encourage
you to do some research.

642
00:37:29,785 --> 00:37:31,255
I would encourage you to write lists.

643
00:37:31,860 --> 00:37:33,990
You know, if it's going to be a
three week wait to get in to see

644
00:37:33,990 --> 00:37:35,660
your GP, don't leave it too late.

645
00:37:35,660 --> 00:37:39,330
Make an appointment for next month and
then, you know, you'll have a number of

646
00:37:39,330 --> 00:37:42,220
things that you'll have remembered you
need to talk to your GP by that time.

647
00:37:42,290 --> 00:37:46,140
I think we just need to be smart about
using those services and, and then

648
00:37:46,510 --> 00:37:50,190
using your other ancillary services as
well, you know, the pharmacists, the

649
00:37:50,220 --> 00:37:52,980
community nurses, uh, nurse on call.

650
00:37:52,980 --> 00:37:56,220
There are, there are so many other
ways that we can get medical advice,

651
00:37:56,630 --> 00:37:59,680
uh, that doesn't just involve your
emergency department and your own GP.

652
00:38:00,245 --> 00:38:01,015
Catherine Ashton: And free ways

653
00:38:01,015 --> 00:38:01,345
too.

654
00:38:01,345 --> 00:38:04,405
Certainly the nurse on
call is, is fantastic.

655
00:38:04,425 --> 00:38:05,035
Yeah.

656
00:38:05,085 --> 00:38:06,205
Catherine Ashton: Thank you very much, Renee.

657
00:38:06,865 --> 00:38:13,495
So in summary, Renee, what would you say
are the key things as someone who deals

658
00:38:13,495 --> 00:38:19,225
with, with death every day at the The cold
face of this, what would you say are the

659
00:38:19,255 --> 00:38:21,175
the things that you would like people to

660
00:38:21,175 --> 00:38:23,815
be aware of or act or do?

661
00:38:24,315 --> 00:38:26,835
Renee Stamation: I think, first of all, I've gotta
say I don't deal with death every day.

662
00:38:26,835 --> 00:38:27,675
I'm not that bad.

663
00:38:27,675 --> 00:38:31,605
A doctor , what was the question again?

664
00:38:31,610 --> 00:38:31,845
Sorry.I've forgot

665
00:38:31,845 --> 00:38:33,289
Catherine Ashton: so what would
you, what would you

666
00:38:33,885 --> 00:38:36,645
recommend
for people as a, a takeaway

667
00:38:36,645 --> 00:38:38,655
from, from
listening to us speak today?

668
00:38:39,015 --> 00:38:42,705
Renee Stamation: Look, I think Catherine, when you
first came with, uh, with the idea

669
00:38:42,710 --> 00:38:44,955
that you had about a, a secure.

670
00:38:45,650 --> 00:38:51,340
Uh, storage system where everything got
put in one place, you know, and, and when

671
00:38:51,340 --> 00:38:54,960
I share this story with my colleagues,
I say, it's got everything from how you

672
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,720
want your dog to be cared for to, to
what you'd write on your own eulogy.

673
00:38:59,180 --> 00:39:01,210
You know, I think, I think just.

674
00:39:01,505 --> 00:39:02,935
You know, talk about this stuff.

675
00:39:02,945 --> 00:39:06,485
Find a, find a, a funny or a
comfortable place to talk about

676
00:39:06,485 --> 00:39:07,775
this stuff with your loved ones.

677
00:39:08,235 --> 00:39:13,045
Uh, you know, my family are very clear
on how I want the end of my life to look.

678
00:39:13,055 --> 00:39:17,035
I've told my husband, don't ever
take me to the hospital, which,

679
00:39:17,075 --> 00:39:20,869
Catherine Ashton: which I think is, is quite a funny
perspective, but, you know, for a doctor.

680
00:39:21,180 --> 00:39:25,210
Renee Stamation: Yes, I've shared with, uh, with my
loved ones that I want my body to

681
00:39:25,220 --> 00:39:27,050
be donated to, to medical science.

682
00:39:27,050 --> 00:39:31,060
You know, I would like to, to have
the, the medical students be able

683
00:39:31,060 --> 00:39:34,880
to learn human anatomy from the
body that I don't need anymore.

684
00:39:35,030 --> 00:39:38,700
But I recently found out about a study
that one of the local universities

685
00:39:38,700 --> 00:39:42,560
are running where they are, they're
looking at the decay process and

686
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,850
seeing how long it takes in certain
environments for a body to decay.

687
00:39:46,890 --> 00:39:51,250
I clearly need to state, while I want my
body to go to medical science, I don't

688
00:39:51,250 --> 00:39:54,710
want to be left down in the paddock to
rot so that I can be recorded for how

689
00:39:54,710 --> 00:39:56,910
long it takes my body to decompose.

690
00:39:57,900 --> 00:39:58,830
Catherine Ashton: So you want to be

691
00:39:58,830 --> 00:39:59,960
very specific in your

692
00:40:00,020 --> 00:40:00,630
instructions.

693
00:40:00,630 --> 00:40:03,940
Renee Stamation: I want to be in the anatomy lab and
I want the medical students to be

694
00:40:03,970 --> 00:40:08,280
learning how to provide care for the
next generation from my rusty old parts.

695
00:40:08,580 --> 00:40:09,590
Catherine Ashton: Oh, that's fantastic.

696
00:40:09,590 --> 00:40:13,490
Well, Renee, I can't thank you
enough for coming and speaking with

697
00:40:13,490 --> 00:40:14,050
us today.

698
00:40:14,150 --> 00:40:15,470
Renee Stamation: Thank you so much for having me.

699
00:40:15,470 --> 00:40:20,470
And I'm sorry if my dark and macabre
sense of humour has offended a few people

700
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,530
or perhaps opened your eyes a little
bit to the world of emergency services.

701
00:40:24,650 --> 00:40:25,330
Catherine Ashton: No, I think it's

702
00:40:25,770 --> 00:40:28,720
good that we can
all have conversations and be open.

703
00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:30,200
So I think it's good that we're

704
00:40:30,230 --> 00:40:30,950
promoting those.

705
00:40:31,970 --> 00:40:33,640
Renee Stamation: Good on you, and keep doing
what you're doing, Catherine.

706
00:40:33,650 --> 00:40:35,190
This is a great initiative.

707
00:40:35,910 --> 00:40:36,520
Catherine Ashton: Thank you, Renee.

708
00:40:36,870 --> 00:40:37,180
Renee Stamation: Bye bye.

709
00:40:38,050 --> 00:40:41,150
Catherine Ashton: We hope you enjoyed
today's episode of Don't Be Caught

710
00:40:41,190 --> 00:40:43,360
Dead, brought to you by Critical Info.

711
00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:48,560
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712
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713
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714
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715
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719
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