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About this episode
In this episode, we're peeling back the layers of holistic death care with Libby Moloney, a pioneer in sustainable and meaningful funeral practices. We explore what it means to handle death not just with professionalism, but with heart and innovation.
Libby shares her journey into holistic funeral care, emphasizing the importance of viewing each life (and death) in its unique context. From the tragic suddenness of accidents to the natural conclusion of a long life, she explains how Natural Grace helps families navigate these diverse experiences with empathy and personalisation. Our discussion isn't just about the mechanics of funeral care but about its profound emotional and spiritual dimensions.
Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine
Show notes
Guest Bio
Founder and Managing Director of Natural Grace
Founder and Managing Director of Natural Grace, Libby Moloney’s role is to nurture and develop her team and business as they strive to provide authentic, sustainable and beautiful funeral care to the community. As holistic funeral caregivers, Libby and her team will gently and respectfully walk alongside you on this important journey. Their goal is to ensure you have all the information you need to make empowered decisions and ultimately experience a meaningful and beautiful day to honour your family member or friend.
Libby is Vice-Chair on the Board of the Holistic End of Life & Death Care Australia (HELD) and Founder and Managing Director of The Willow Tree Foundation.
Summary
Key points covered include:
- The significance of holding space for grief and how it transforms the experience of death for families.
- An insightful exploration of holistic funeral practices that honour the life and values of the deceased.
- The impact of cultural sensitivity and personalisation in funeral care, making it a deeply personal and healing process.
Transcript
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Libby: A woman fell from the height
of the square all the way down the
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stairs and cracked her head and
was totally unconscious at my feet.
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In that moment, the screaming started
and the people and the worried
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00:00:14,529 --> 00:00:17,869
and her husband was in the toilet
still up on the square and mayhem.
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00:00:18,559 --> 00:00:21,194
And she was non ... Read More
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00:00:02,210 --> 00:00:06,270
Libby: A woman fell from the height
of the square all the way down the
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00:00:06,270 --> 00:00:10,490
stairs and cracked her head and
was totally unconscious at my feet.
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00:00:11,029 --> 00:00:14,529
In that moment, the screaming started
and the people and the worried
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00:00:14,529 --> 00:00:17,869
and her husband was in the toilet
still up on the square and mayhem.
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And she was non English speaking.
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But her son and daughter in law were
English speaking, so I was able to say
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to them, right now we have a choice.
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I don't know what's going to happen for
your mum, but we could sit and talk to
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her and hold her hand, or we can scream
and, you know, and I will support you
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to do whatever it is that you want.
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This is my invitation to you.
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And I stay in touch with that
son, and he, he just in that
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moment made a decision to trust.
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So we sat on the ground, and they
spoke to her in her own language,
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and they just were talking to
her, and just comforting her, just
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assuring her, assuring themselves.
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So the hysteria went from
hysteria down to this really calm,
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loving, Sitting on the concrete.
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Catherine: And what was the outcome?
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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a
podcast encouraging open conversations
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about dying and the death of a loved one.
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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to
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bring your stories of death back to life.
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Because while you may not be ready
to die, At least you can be prepared.
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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations
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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.
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We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging, and extend
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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First
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Nation peoples around the globe.
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Today we are speaking with the
founder and managing director
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of Natural Grace, Libby Maloney.
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Libby Maloney's role is to nurture
and develop her team and business
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as they strive to provide authentic,
sustainable and beautiful funeral care.
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So today we'll be actually
chatting about holistic death care.
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Now Libby, you describe yourself
as a holistic funeral director.
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Can you please explain what that means?
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Libby: Thanks Catherine, it's
lovely to be here with you.
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So holistic funeral care really lies
in the word, or that holistic word.
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So if we look at what that really
means, it's to look at the whole
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person in their whole context.
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In the entirety of their relationships,
how they've lived, what are their values,
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what are their principles of life,
what makes them laugh, what makes them
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smile, what's really authentic to them.
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So it's holistic in terms of how
we sometimes consider healthcare
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or any other holistic approach
to, to the human condition.
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So we coined the term
holistic funeral director.
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Because the world understands
the term funeral director, uh, we
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couldn't really move away from that.
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We really prefer the word guide, but
the world's not caught up to that
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and it doesn't Google very well.
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But we, so we needed to keep that going.
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And so, but we wanted to
say, how do we, how do we
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communicate to the, to the world?
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to the community that this is a model
of care, an approach to care that
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will really look at who you are, who
have, how has that life been lived
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and how is this end of life, death
care, funeral ceremony and return of
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the body to nature going to look like.
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So that's where we coined the term
holistic funeral director and it's
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now being used quite commonly by
other, um, holistic practitioners
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as well, which is lovely.
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Catherine: It's a really lovely title.
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Uh, it's, it sums it
up perfectly actually.
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And can you share with us, how did you
start or when did you start Natural Grace?
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Libby: So Natural Grace, uh, it shares
its birthday with Dying to Know Day,
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which I didn't realize at the time,
it's sheer coincidence at the time
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we both started in the same year.
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So that was really lovely.
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So we'll
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Catherine: just tell people what
Dying to Know Day is as well.
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Libby: Yeah, Dying to Know Day is a
national day of conversation around
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dying and death, of being prepared.
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Um, what would you do?
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What would you like?
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Do your family know your wishes?
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Really around what we call death literacy.
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And it's become a national day, the
8th of August, and, and people all
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over the country do wonderful events,
all sorts of things, from death
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meditations right through to big expos
and showing of films and conversations
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and asking people to make a commitment
as to what they'll do about their own
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preparation for the end of their lives.
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So it's a marvellous day, easily Googled,
Dying to Know Day, very straightforward.
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And so we happen to share our
birthday with him, which is just.
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Lovely for us.
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Um, so we've been, yeah,
it's just delicious.
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So we will be 12 this year.
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So we've been going for a while now.
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And what originally happened for me was
that I was, um, widowed as a young woman.
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I was 26 when my husband
died and our child was two.
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And it was a time where very much,
perfectly acceptable, but very
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conventional funeral care was really
all that was still, was being offered.
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So his, his funeral was
professionally organized.
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It was dignified.
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There was absolutely
nothing wrong with it.
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But what didn't happen was, he died.
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didn't come home and let
me care for him at home.
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He didn't, I don't have a lock
of his chocolate brown hair.
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He didn't have a natural burial.
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He didn't have a home funeral.
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He didn't have all these
things that I now learn to awe.
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modestly have created or have linked from
all the other great teachers that are
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possible and legal and are very beautiful.
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So that led me to quite some years
of study and research around how
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could this have been different?
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It wasn't that it was bad, but how could
it have been more reflective of him?
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So he was a poet and a great,
had a great stage presence.
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And, you know, he should have had a big
poetry slam in our back paddock is what
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should have happened for his funeral.
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But anywho, uh, so It, that was a
lot of study and research and talking
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and traveling and really finding out
what, what other cultures do, what
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other countries do, what happens in
our own Indigenous communities, where
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is really meaningful end of life
experiences and death care coming
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from, and how can that be different?
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And, uh, I'm an, I'm an accountant
by profession, so I had a business
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y background, and I had resisted
conventional funeral directing
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because I Don't tell anyone,
but it's actually pretty boring.
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Like the actual funeral directing, tick
the box, book the cemetery, you know,
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buy a coffin stuff is, is death event
management and with, and it's a very
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important part of our work, but it's
not the beautiful part of our work.
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So I resisted that for a long time
and then I just couldn't find it.
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So I woke up in the middle of the night
one night and said, Oh, I'll do it myself.
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So natural grace was born as quite
a pragmatic response, really, to a.
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Deep need in me to bring my
experience and my capacity and my
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love for other people to, to the
world through holistic death care.
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That was a long answer.
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Catherine: Sorry.
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No, no, no, no, it's a great answer.
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I love it.
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I'm intrigued in those early
days when you were doing that.
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initial research and traveling.
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Do you remember one thing that stuck
with you out of that, out of that
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time that you went, yep, this is
what I want to try and recreate?
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Libby: Yes, it was actually probably
the experience with one of your other
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guests, actually, the, the remarkable
Zenith Ferrago, who really shared
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from the generosity of her heart.
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She's, she's a very generous, um, human
being and, and many, many travelers
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on the journey of finding out, do they
want to come into this death care space?
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Contact Zenithin and, and make the
trek to Byron Bay and go and sit
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and have a cup of tea with her.
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And, and she shares.
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And what she really brought
into my consciousness was that,
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and it was just literally scribbled
on the back of a survey, it was
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that it's an integrated experience
that we have, that we live, we, we.
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We age, or we're diagnosed with a
life limiting illness, or there's
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trauma, accident, or, or something
happens, and all of a sudden, or
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gradually, we end up at end of life.
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And then we live with a life limiting
illness, then we sort of enter
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palliative care, or we're in an acute
palliative situation, and then we die.
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And then, uh, there's differing
experiences after death.
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There's immediate after death
care, what we call vigil keeping,
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being with the dead, and, and how
imperative that part of the work is.
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Then we have ceremonies to honor.
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Lives lived and then we have the return
of bodies to the, to the earth through,
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through burial or, or through cremation.
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And then we enter sort of
early bereavement time.
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So the accountant in me that, was
seeking to say, how can this be
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something that people can really access?
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That it's not just talked about in
beautiful settings, like even dying
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to no day events kind of thing, that
it's actually, you could hear, you
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could hear from someone about the
concept of say, shrouded cremation,
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or say, natural burial, and that
you could actually ring someone up.
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And go, I've heard about natural burial,
can you help me provide that service?
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So that link in that moment with her,
of, of sharing that wisdom, and that,
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that doesn't really belong to anyone,
that's ancient wisdom of understanding
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what it is to, to live and to die.
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But her capacity to communicate
that to me at that pivotal
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time was really remarkable.
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And it.
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It just aligned beautiful, beautifully
with the skills that I've got.
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And so then I was able to say,
okay, how can I actually be
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on the other end of the phone?
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And someone could bring me
up and say, I want to provide
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funeral care for my mum at home.
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I don't want to use a funeral director,
but I do need someone to pick her up
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from the hospital and bring her home.
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And can you help me with a coffin?
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And I wanted to be that person.
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So that that's really
where it really went clunk.
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This is possible for me.
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Catherine: From the way in which you're
explaining it Libby, for me it sounds like
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that it, it explains the process of dying
not just as one thing, perhaps a series.
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of different compartmentalized kind
of processes, I suppose, or steps.
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Would that, that be the, the way in, when
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Libby: you're
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Catherine: talking about
the vigil and then.
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Yeah,
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Libby: I don't know if they're
necessarily, I suppose they are
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compartmentalized, but they're really
just this beautiful natural flow.
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So it's, it's a, a projectory
that we all go through is,
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and we start when we're born.
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For the minute we're born, we're dying.
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Let's be frank.
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In fact, there's a, there's a.
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There's a commonly understood time
that a series of events would start
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to make us think what, what's best.
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What's going to happen for
me at the end of my life?
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And then hopefully, it's this natural
aging, but of course, it's commonly
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diagnosis of something awful and
NSA trauma can change that too.
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So we sort of move gradually through it.
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It's like, that is a, is a thing.
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And, and then we go, Oh, we're
going to get treatment for say, say
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you've been diagnosed with cancer.
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We're going to get treatment.
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Um, and, and many, many, many people,
you'd never say all, but many, many,
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many people would pursue available
treatments to them in the hope of cure.
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But when it becomes clear that cure
is not available, then there isn't
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anything more that can be done.
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Then we look to acceptance to comfort
to, you know, beautiful end of life.
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Experiences, some people talk about things
like bucket lists, that sort of stuff.
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And then that, that time living with a
life limiting illness is, is often where
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you hear of great change in people's
philosophical view or their capacity
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to say, I love you to their people,
to, to say, I'm sorry for things that
212
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might've happened, to say, I forgive you.
213
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Those, you know, concepts of the sort of
top five things of the dying or regrets
214
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:35,400
of the dying, I think the book's called.
215
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And you look at those
really deep experiences.
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People will say, I want to be at home.
217
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That's imperative for so many people.
218
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And the evidence shows us that.
219
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So people explore all those things.
220
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And then, then we start to be really into
what, what we kind of call a dying time.
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So it's not a step one,
Now we're into step two.
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It's, it's, it's so fluid and people
go back and forth a little bit in
223
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that time where they do have just, I
wouldn't quite say remission, but you
224
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know, improvements in their health.
225
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And I mean, I know someone
that's been discharged from
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palliative care, got kicked out.
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So, you know, back you go,
you're too good, off you go.
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So, you know, you can move around a
bit in there, but you sort of move
229
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naturally through it, you know, and
then, you know, the acute dying time.
230
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So palliative care might be involved.
231
00:14:24,905 --> 00:14:31,055
There's a lot of, uh, a lot of focus on
pain management, on, um, psychosocial,
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you know, comfort, making sure that the
care team are really supported as well.
233
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And then we do die.
234
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And again, that, you're a hundred
percent alive until you're dead.
235
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You know, there's no, nothing
between those two things.
236
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You're either pregnant or you're not,
you're either dead or you're not.
237
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It's, you know, you, a hundred percent
alive, and your life is so precious.
238
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And then the death occurs, and that
sort of, like a surreal kind of, like
239
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a veil that lifts, and the person
flips through, and the, and the others
240
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are left going, Oh, We're here now.
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So it's very magical
really and quite beautiful.
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And then from there we, we go
into immediate care of the body.
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The sacred and respectful
care of somebody's body is
244
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really, really important.
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But equally, we, we jump into sort of
the immediate Care and needs of the
246
00:15:30,535 --> 00:15:35,065
people that have loved that person and
where are they and how are they and what
247
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do they need in that immediate time.
248
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And then that, that time
we refer to as vigil time.
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So really from the point of death until
either the funeral ceremony or, or often
250
00:15:49,264 --> 00:15:53,425
people will keep their dead at home
for sort of three days and then they'll
251
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ask, could you come and take them into.
252
00:15:55,905 --> 00:15:58,204
into the our care, the
holistic funeral care.
253
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And, and then the ceremony might
happen a week later or something.
254
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You never quite know what that's
going to be, but there's this
255
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magical couple of days of attending
to the body and depending on the
256
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spiritual belief or religious belief.
257
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So the family and the person that's
died, there's this universal sense of
258
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escorting Um, while their soul sort
of separates from their body and that,
259
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that we, if we keep them company and,
and stay in that space for a couple of
260
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days, the, the natural and, and sort of
ethereal experience of their soul truly
261
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separating and going on to whatever it is.
262
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that the person believed in.
263
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And it does twofold.
264
00:16:44,064 --> 00:16:49,674
It satisfies the need and promises that
are often made that we won't leave you.
265
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We'll, we'll make sure our family stays
with you to the person that's dying.
266
00:16:53,975 --> 00:16:58,104
But it also meets needs that often
the living didn't even know that they
267
00:16:58,114 --> 00:17:02,435
had, which is to give themselves time.
268
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And over three days we see this, ah,
it's, it's, Breathtaking, what happens
269
00:17:09,855 --> 00:17:16,985
in three days, where the human condition
will move from devastation, often not
270
00:17:16,985 --> 00:17:22,244
even able to walk or talk, through to
lifting a head up, through to being
271
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able to have a shower, through to coming
back and washing and dressing the body,
272
00:17:27,134 --> 00:17:32,445
through to day three where they're
like, Oh, I'm actually, Okay, now, I
273
00:17:32,455 --> 00:17:39,084
don't need my person's body to be near
me in order for me to, to function.
274
00:17:39,084 --> 00:17:40,915
I'm ready to let their body go now.
275
00:17:41,994 --> 00:17:44,875
It's quite amazing to be witnessed to.
276
00:17:45,495 --> 00:17:45,964
Catherine: And is that
277
00:17:45,964 --> 00:17:48,904
Libby: something that
your team assists with?
278
00:17:49,175 --> 00:17:50,225
Mm, we do.
279
00:17:50,564 --> 00:17:55,415
And it would be significantly one of
our points of difference, if you like.
280
00:17:55,574 --> 00:17:58,855
I mean, people are in the
market looking for care.
281
00:17:59,405 --> 00:18:01,754
And, uh, if you're looking for.
282
00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:06,820
Guides, which is why we prefer the word
guide than direct expert, direct anybody.
283
00:18:07,110 --> 00:18:08,020
But if you're looking for.
284
00:18:08,629 --> 00:18:13,790
a guide, someone who can safely hold
your hand or walk beside you while
285
00:18:13,790 --> 00:18:16,100
you navigate those experiences.
286
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,420
That's, that's what we are as holistic
practitioners to be able to do.
287
00:18:21,050 --> 00:18:25,599
And they're all very carefully trained
people by both in house with us,
288
00:18:25,969 --> 00:18:30,020
uh, but also through preparing the
way, end of life door services and
289
00:18:30,020 --> 00:18:34,294
education who specialize, this is,
this is Their specialty of training
290
00:18:34,294 --> 00:18:35,885
people to be end of life doers.
291
00:18:37,245 --> 00:18:41,375
And then the next stage of that, if
you like, that progression through that
292
00:18:41,875 --> 00:18:46,824
integrated model is again a very gentle
step, and it just sort of happens where
293
00:18:47,125 --> 00:18:50,684
people start to put their head up and go,
Oh, I'm ready to organize a funeral now.
294
00:18:51,070 --> 00:18:56,030
So then, I mean, funerals are, uh, uh,
uh, uh, event management on speed, quite
295
00:18:56,030 --> 00:19:01,409
frankly, it's, it's how do we get, at the
moment we're organizing for 500 people
296
00:19:01,429 --> 00:19:06,749
to be in a weatherproof environment in
the Macedon Ranges with five days notice.
297
00:19:07,669 --> 00:19:11,629
You know, so it's just like, how do
we quickly pull this together, you
298
00:19:11,629 --> 00:19:13,620
know, and still have it be beautiful.
299
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,819
So, that's where I plead all
your listeners to please do
300
00:19:17,819 --> 00:19:18,850
some end of life planning.
301
00:19:19,250 --> 00:19:22,429
If nothing else, share what
they'd like for their funerals.
302
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:26,599
And then the process, then you sort of
move through that ceremony, I mean, we
303
00:19:26,599 --> 00:19:29,960
could talk for hours just about ceremony
and ritual and how important that is.
304
00:19:30,519 --> 00:19:36,080
And then we move into returning
somebody's body back to nature is
305
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:42,690
an incredibly important part of that
integrated, you know, experience
306
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that we have at end of life.
307
00:19:44,299 --> 00:19:45,679
It's not, there's a,
308
00:19:47,820 --> 00:19:54,719
I hold really deep concern, uh,
there's, there's sort of, it's become
309
00:19:54,719 --> 00:19:57,279
a bit de rigueur to say, we'll just.
310
00:19:57,965 --> 00:20:02,055
Essentially, get rid of the body
through a direct, cheap, direct
311
00:20:02,125 --> 00:20:03,545
cremation, get rid of them.
312
00:20:04,205 --> 00:20:06,565
Really, sorry, I shouldn't say
that so disrespectfully, and I
313
00:20:06,565 --> 00:20:10,124
really don't mean to, but it's a
perfunctory role, let's just get
314
00:20:10,124 --> 00:20:13,874
them cremated, and then we'll have a
memorial service and all those things
315
00:20:13,874 --> 00:20:15,874
later, or maybe even nothing at all.
316
00:20:16,605 --> 00:20:20,025
And my heart actually hurts for that.
317
00:20:20,045 --> 00:20:22,839
I think that's going to create
deep complication for me.
318
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:29,030
in the next generation or the next
years to come of, of the lack of
319
00:20:29,030 --> 00:20:34,730
opportunity that comes to be really
deeply part of our death rights.
320
00:20:35,270 --> 00:20:43,530
And if we sort of outsource them so
extensively as to really just send the
321
00:20:43,530 --> 00:20:49,420
body off and maybe do something later,
I think we're missing the to integrate
322
00:20:49,420 --> 00:20:52,110
the loss deeply into who we are.
323
00:20:54,475 --> 00:20:58,014
So, I think returning the body to
nature is a really important part of it.
324
00:20:58,015 --> 00:21:03,395
There's a thing called witnessed
cremation, where you can actually see
325
00:21:03,405 --> 00:21:05,935
the coffin going into the cremator.
326
00:21:06,165 --> 00:21:10,054
Now, that might not be quite everybody's
cup of tea, but certainly, you know,
327
00:21:10,054 --> 00:21:16,899
it's Escorting to the cemetery or, or
fondly, you know, saying farewell from
328
00:21:16,899 --> 00:21:21,019
the end of the ceremony or some aspect
where, where you've been connected to that
329
00:21:21,019 --> 00:21:25,919
process, I truly believe is, uh, help,
is a health and wellbeing issue for the,
330
00:21:26,189 --> 00:21:28,899
for the surviving family and friends.
331
00:21:29,415 --> 00:21:32,325
And then burial, of course, there's
all sorts of things that, that
332
00:21:32,425 --> 00:21:35,935
whole ceremony and ritual, a whole
funeral can be just around a grave.
333
00:21:36,555 --> 00:21:39,225
And, and they're quite
spectacular and, and beautiful.
334
00:21:39,255 --> 00:21:44,865
And the, and the ritual of filling a grave
yourself, all these old traditional ways.
335
00:21:45,184 --> 00:21:51,345
When a, when a community fills the grave
and bury their own dead, uh, it, the,
336
00:21:51,385 --> 00:21:57,425
the energetic exchange between them and,
and the healing that you pretty much.
337
00:21:58,210 --> 00:21:59,650
will literally watch happen.
338
00:22:00,450 --> 00:22:05,110
Takes about 45 minutes and the spades
get passed from person to person and
339
00:22:05,110 --> 00:22:07,220
everybody does as many as they can.
340
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,070
And when they're ready for arrest,
they pass the spade to the next person.
341
00:22:11,410 --> 00:22:17,650
And this incredible weaving of
love and respect and help and
342
00:22:17,650 --> 00:22:21,820
the older people sit and just be
part of it and little kids help.
343
00:22:21,820 --> 00:22:27,299
And at the end, there's this incredible
pride from, say, way buried in it.
344
00:22:27,580 --> 00:22:28,480
them ourselves.
345
00:22:29,709 --> 00:22:33,780
And yet, only a hundred years ago, that's
exactly what would have happened anyway.
346
00:22:34,669 --> 00:22:37,040
So we've actually mucked
up so much of this stuff by
347
00:22:37,389 --> 00:22:39,540
sterilizing it and outsourcing it.
348
00:22:39,620 --> 00:22:40,000
Catherine: Yeah.
349
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,809
Can I take you back to that moment
when you were talking about that
350
00:22:43,809 --> 00:22:49,404
period of, we, we've used an example
of someone who might be terminally ill.
351
00:22:49,785 --> 00:22:57,095
And how do you then create it for
those families who have suffered an
352
00:22:57,145 --> 00:23:00,685
accident or a trauma that's unexpected?
353
00:23:00,925 --> 00:23:03,215
How do you take them on that same journey?
354
00:23:03,215 --> 00:23:04,595
Do you mind talking me through that?
355
00:23:04,875 --> 00:23:06,145
Libby: Yeah, it's a great question.
356
00:23:06,695 --> 00:23:10,015
And again, something sadly that
we do specialize in as well.
357
00:23:10,515 --> 00:23:19,770
Um, it's, With, with the right guide
and, and the, and the capacity of
358
00:23:19,770 --> 00:23:24,969
that guide to trust themselves.
359
00:23:26,090 --> 00:23:32,200
To be able to make suggestions, to be able
to assure a family that something's okay.
360
00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:36,620
So often these things are
best explained by a story.
361
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:44,279
So, uh, being with, with families in
intensive care and the heartbreaking
362
00:23:44,279 --> 00:23:48,740
decisions being made that the, the,
the support needs to be turned off.
363
00:23:50,159 --> 00:23:51,550
The care offered by our.
364
00:23:52,315 --> 00:23:56,735
you know, major hospitals and that
have got ICU units and the support
365
00:23:56,755 --> 00:24:00,635
that goes into families to get to
the point where that decision's been
366
00:24:00,635 --> 00:24:04,125
made is, is, is overwhelmingly good.
367
00:24:04,664 --> 00:24:09,344
It, you know, very, very few people report
that as being badly managed anymore.
368
00:24:09,534 --> 00:24:11,745
I think in the day it might've
been, families might've been
369
00:24:12,045 --> 00:24:15,865
excluded from a lot of that, but
that's not generally true anymore.
370
00:24:15,865 --> 00:24:21,765
Families are deeply included in, and,
and they are asked who do they need.
371
00:24:22,430 --> 00:24:27,140
So some families might say, I need
a priest to come, you know, or they
372
00:24:27,140 --> 00:24:33,179
might need the pastoral carer or
increasingly an end of life doula to
373
00:24:33,179 --> 00:24:34,699
come and play that role in their life.
374
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,700
And then, and then because there's
still, people aren't quite sure yet
375
00:24:39,700 --> 00:24:43,410
what they want, they'll say, Oh, I want
my holistic funeral director to come.
376
00:24:43,850 --> 00:24:48,300
So you get this moment to sort of
step into even a critical space like
377
00:24:48,300 --> 00:24:53,970
that and be able to, uh, if you like.
378
00:24:54,665 --> 00:24:56,155
Use your experience.
379
00:24:57,189 --> 00:25:03,220
As a holistic death care practitioner
to assess the situation really quickly
380
00:25:04,290 --> 00:25:11,100
and listen to what you're being told
and then draw on this sort of, if you
381
00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:15,729
like, sort of toolkit that we carry
around with us and say, what can
382
00:25:15,730 --> 00:25:22,749
I, how can I help right now to, to
bring the benefit of what would have
383
00:25:22,749 --> 00:25:24,099
happened if this death happened at home.
384
00:25:25,139 --> 00:25:30,950
So, had this happened at home, there
would have been time for massaging the
385
00:25:30,950 --> 00:25:34,689
person's hands or feet, or there would
have been time for cooking a delicious
386
00:25:34,709 --> 00:25:38,530
meal and giving them little tastes,
or there would have been time for
387
00:25:38,780 --> 00:25:40,689
whatever is meaningful to that family.
388
00:25:41,175 --> 00:25:47,475
So, in one particular situation, uh,
the, the, the wife of the man that had
389
00:25:47,475 --> 00:25:51,465
died, well, was, was still alive, still
on life support, but that decision
390
00:25:51,475 --> 00:25:53,725
had been made to turn his support off.
391
00:25:54,254 --> 00:25:58,495
She was quite, you know, I suppose
spiritual, if you like, so she, she
392
00:25:58,495 --> 00:26:00,294
was really attending to her needs.
393
00:26:00,775 --> 00:26:01,285
quite well.
394
00:26:01,805 --> 00:26:04,595
And, and it was her that
chose for me to come in.
395
00:26:05,775 --> 00:26:12,934
But the gentleman's dad was a much
more conventional, I'm going to
396
00:26:12,935 --> 00:26:14,965
say not hippie in inverted commas.
397
00:26:15,355 --> 00:26:20,094
And he was the, the poor man, he was
just struggling, really struggling as
398
00:26:20,094 --> 00:26:25,595
to how he could catch up so quickly
to what had happened to his son.
399
00:26:26,345 --> 00:26:31,995
And, and, and sort of watching all
these Rituals of the spiritual wife.
400
00:26:32,425 --> 00:26:37,875
And I was just able to come alongside
him and say, here's some cream.
401
00:26:37,885 --> 00:26:39,055
We just carry it in our kit.
402
00:26:39,155 --> 00:26:39,895
We've just got a cream.
403
00:26:39,895 --> 00:26:41,305
That's got a gold leaf through it.
404
00:26:41,305 --> 00:26:46,544
And the symbolism of the gold is, is how
precious this person has been to you.
405
00:26:47,424 --> 00:26:47,675
Catherine: Well, that's
406
00:26:47,675 --> 00:26:51,264
Libby: a, I was able to just
come alongside him and just say,
407
00:26:52,185 --> 00:26:57,035
here's this gold cream and I
know how precious your son is.
408
00:26:57,555 --> 00:26:58,975
And this gold represents that.
409
00:26:59,095 --> 00:27:02,165
And I'd wondering if you'd
like to put some on him.
410
00:27:03,635 --> 00:27:07,764
And you know, he just looked at me and
he couldn't speak, but, and so I just,
411
00:27:08,024 --> 00:27:13,295
I just lifted the sheet and exposed
the man's feet and just myself, just
412
00:27:13,385 --> 00:27:17,795
a little tiny bit, just massaged the
tips of his toes with this gold cream.
413
00:27:18,354 --> 00:27:19,344
And it took about.
414
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,490
Two seconds, and he gently pushed
me out of the way and took over.
415
00:27:24,530 --> 00:27:32,310
So in ICU, before any time had come, he
just massaged and anointed his son's feet.
416
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:41,600
And 45 minutes, he just was in a, like in
a trance of just whatever he was telling
417
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,750
him, whatever was going on between them.
418
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:49,630
And so in just a moment, you
can find the thing in trauma.
419
00:27:49,630 --> 00:27:49,723
Yeah.
420
00:27:49,723 --> 00:27:49,816
Yeah.
421
00:27:49,816 --> 00:27:49,909
Yeah.
422
00:27:50,090 --> 00:27:50,510
Yeah.
423
00:27:50,935 --> 00:27:51,275
Yeah.
424
00:27:51,965 --> 00:27:57,245
And another time was my, my business
partner, Jackie Morgan and I were
425
00:27:57,295 --> 00:28:02,215
displaying our, our offering at the
Melbourne Sustainability Festival.
426
00:28:02,955 --> 00:28:06,694
And it's down at the back
then it was on, on Bering Mar.
427
00:28:06,695 --> 00:28:10,704
So you come down off, off the squares,
off the big, those big concrete steps
428
00:28:10,745 --> 00:28:11,965
and you're running along the river.
429
00:28:12,525 --> 00:28:13,719
And I just stepped back.
430
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:19,330
Back from our stall to take some photos
and a woman fell from the height of
431
00:28:19,330 --> 00:28:24,009
the square all the way down the stairs
and, and cracked her head and was
432
00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:26,379
totally unconscious at, at my feet.
433
00:28:27,300 --> 00:28:28,950
And it was just.
434
00:28:29,425 --> 00:28:30,105
awful.
435
00:28:30,885 --> 00:28:35,155
But again, in that moment, you know,
the screaming started and the people and
436
00:28:35,155 --> 00:28:38,965
the worried and her husband was in the
toilet, still up on the square and mayhem.
437
00:28:39,625 --> 00:28:43,734
And, and I just, she was,
she was non English speaking.
438
00:28:43,825 --> 00:28:48,974
She was from, from China, but her son and
daughter in law were English speaking.
439
00:28:48,974 --> 00:28:52,505
So I was able to say to them,
right now we have a choice.
440
00:28:53,495 --> 00:28:58,805
I don't know what's going to happen
for your mom, but we could sit
441
00:28:59,065 --> 00:29:01,105
and talk to her and hold her hand.
442
00:29:02,020 --> 00:29:06,270
Or, we can scream, and, you know, and I
will support you to do whatever it is.
443
00:29:07,650 --> 00:29:09,200
This is my invitation to you.
444
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:14,940
And they just, and I stay, it's a
long time ago now, and I stay in touch
445
00:29:14,940 --> 00:29:19,070
with that son, and he, he just in
that moment made a decision to trust.
446
00:29:20,310 --> 00:29:26,530
So, we sat on the ground, and they spoke
to her in, in her own language, and they
447
00:29:26,530 --> 00:29:31,650
just were talking to her and just saying
goodbye, really, they didn't know that
448
00:29:31,650 --> 00:29:36,130
yet, but they were just comforting her,
just assuring her, assuring themselves.
449
00:29:36,499 --> 00:29:42,399
So the hysteria went from hysteria down
to this really calm, loving, sitting
450
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:48,640
on the concrete Moment when the amber
is arriving, what's going on, you know,
451
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:54,810
like in that moment, we could bring
holistic care or gentleness, kindness or
452
00:29:54,810 --> 00:30:00,190
calmness that you do generally experience
with a really well managed plan for
453
00:30:00,220 --> 00:30:03,159
end of lifetime into an acute setting.
454
00:30:04,619 --> 00:30:04,839
Catherine: And.
455
00:30:05,630 --> 00:30:07,220
What was the outcome for that woman?
456
00:30:07,580 --> 00:30:09,070
Libby: Yeah, that lady did die.
457
00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:12,550
She had a catastrophic head
injury from, from that.
458
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,979
And, but they got 10 days with her and
before they had to turn the machine
459
00:30:17,979 --> 00:30:21,120
off and yeah, they, they, it was awful.
460
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:22,280
Absolutely awful.
461
00:30:23,075 --> 00:30:28,975
But, you know, when, when her son
stayed in touch for a very long time
462
00:30:28,975 --> 00:30:33,334
after and occasionally still does,
it just goes back to that moment that
463
00:30:33,335 --> 00:30:37,065
he got to say all the things that he
wanted to say and be with her and offer
464
00:30:37,065 --> 00:30:40,594
comfort to her and minimise a little.
465
00:30:40,714 --> 00:30:42,205
I mean, they were all, they
were, they were going to be
466
00:30:42,205 --> 00:30:44,065
in for a dreadful experience.
467
00:30:44,065 --> 00:30:49,115
That was pretty obvious by how bad her
injuries were, but they had a young child.
468
00:30:49,645 --> 00:30:50,755
So he just said.
469
00:30:52,025 --> 00:30:57,125
We know that could have been
much worse if we hadn't had that
470
00:30:57,125 --> 00:31:01,665
opportunity to just sit quietly
with her in that, in that space, so.
471
00:31:02,365 --> 00:31:05,755
Catherine: That's phenomenal because
it's, it's that instantaneous fight or
472
00:31:05,755 --> 00:31:12,965
flight response and for you to be able
to say to a complete stranger and bring
473
00:31:12,965 --> 00:31:15,774
them down and calm them down is amazing.
474
00:31:16,865 --> 00:31:19,875
Libby: Yeah, it was a very
privileged place to be.
475
00:31:20,155 --> 00:31:23,765
And you know, there'd be many people that
would say the universe that that was her
476
00:31:23,765 --> 00:31:29,255
story and I was meant to be there, I don't
know, but, uh, we just, it just happened.
477
00:31:29,255 --> 00:31:33,285
And part of the other part of that
story is what Jackie witnessed.
478
00:31:33,355 --> 00:31:39,265
She was standing in the marquee and
her, her knowing that her place was to
479
00:31:39,265 --> 00:31:43,415
stay across and hold the space for me.
480
00:31:44,025 --> 00:31:45,465
to then hold the space for them.
481
00:31:46,205 --> 00:31:50,995
So yeah, it was, and I think
we've all got that capacity.
482
00:31:51,990 --> 00:31:56,980
You know, at, at one level or
another, what we've done is
483
00:31:56,980 --> 00:31:58,930
become petrified of everything.
484
00:31:58,940 --> 00:32:01,420
We've become so scared of death.
485
00:32:01,580 --> 00:32:05,020
We've become that, as you
say, that fight or flight.
486
00:32:05,070 --> 00:32:12,160
And we, and we've really been taught, I
think over quite some time now to fly,
487
00:32:12,350 --> 00:32:16,734
you know, that it's, that you protect
yourself first and, you know, and, and.
488
00:32:16,935 --> 00:32:20,505
Any emergency services people are
listening to this, they say, you
489
00:32:20,505 --> 00:32:23,025
know, they're the fight people, they
step in, they do it all the time,
490
00:32:23,025 --> 00:32:25,314
they're wonderful, wonderful people.
491
00:32:25,975 --> 00:32:29,365
But the general population,
we need to talk more.
492
00:32:29,505 --> 00:32:34,525
We need to decide how do we as
human beings want to be right now.
493
00:32:35,460 --> 00:32:39,540
You know, the power of now, what,
what do I want to happen right now?
494
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,410
How do I want to look back on this moment?
495
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:43,800
Did I step in or did I step out?
496
00:32:44,829 --> 00:32:47,540
Catherine: And tell me about
the importance of holding space.
497
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:49,050
What is holding space?
498
00:32:49,079 --> 00:32:53,620
Because that seems pretty important
in that, that situation because
499
00:32:53,620 --> 00:32:57,340
it seems to be a conscious
decision that you have to make.
500
00:32:58,220 --> 00:33:00,590
Libby: Yes, in a critical situation,
it's very conscious, you know,
501
00:33:00,810 --> 00:33:02,180
what am I going to do right now?
502
00:33:02,490 --> 00:33:08,830
But in, in general, So as, as human
beings, we're actually holding what
503
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,190
this concept of holding the space we're
doing for each other all the time.
504
00:33:12,830 --> 00:33:19,630
So it's, it's saying, I am here
and I will be here alongside you.
505
00:33:21,485 --> 00:33:29,855
with no conditions, with no intention
or need to fix, with no outcome that I'm
506
00:33:29,855 --> 00:33:34,675
tied to, is, is with a totally open heart.
507
00:33:35,925 --> 00:33:39,175
I will sit here with you in
whatever this is for you.
508
00:33:40,255 --> 00:33:45,415
And the best exploration around that
is the work of Heather Plett, and
509
00:33:45,425 --> 00:33:52,725
she is the absolute master educator
around that concept of holding space.
510
00:33:53,275 --> 00:33:55,875
And, and it's what we do professionally.
511
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,500
All the time and what we do privately all
the time, of course, any parent would say.
512
00:34:01,215 --> 00:34:02,875
that they know what that feeling is.
513
00:34:03,225 --> 00:34:06,995
We're holding the space of particularly
our adolescent children all the time.
514
00:34:07,275 --> 00:34:12,555
They explore and stretch and we're,
we're sometimes with bated breath,
515
00:34:13,075 --> 00:34:15,085
waiting and saying, I'm, yeah.
516
00:34:15,895 --> 00:34:17,945
Catherine: Sometimes it
involves counting to ten.
517
00:34:18,074 --> 00:34:18,524
Libby: Yes.
518
00:34:18,705 --> 00:34:20,484
A lot of the time it
involves counting to ten.
519
00:34:22,064 --> 00:34:22,864
Yes, darling.
520
00:34:22,874 --> 00:34:23,764
That's a great idea.
521
00:34:23,764 --> 00:34:24,725
You see how that goes.
522
00:34:25,315 --> 00:34:27,594
Anyway, uh, it's, it's.
523
00:34:27,775 --> 00:34:32,535
It's a beautiful concept and it's,
and it's, it's giving language to
524
00:34:32,535 --> 00:34:36,575
what hopefully we're, we're all doing.
525
00:34:37,675 --> 00:34:41,884
But particularly in end of life and,
and dying and, and death care in
526
00:34:41,885 --> 00:34:49,295
general, the, the temptation to come
in and rescue people or I'll make it
527
00:34:49,334 --> 00:34:55,584
easier for you by taking that away
from you, that is, that is damaging.
528
00:34:55,735 --> 00:35:01,465
You know, that I believe, and
professionally I believe, the kindest
529
00:35:01,465 --> 00:35:06,194
thing we can do and the most helpful
thing we can do is to come alongside each
530
00:35:06,195 --> 00:35:10,835
other and say, I'm here to walk with you.
531
00:35:13,985 --> 00:35:18,505
If I need to carry you at points,
that's fine too, but often just having
532
00:35:18,505 --> 00:35:26,104
someone to walk alongside us, we can
find the strength or the energy or the
533
00:35:26,104 --> 00:35:29,755
whatever to, to do what we need to do.
534
00:35:30,915 --> 00:35:37,855
And what we absolutely know to be
true is the families who provide.
535
00:35:38,450 --> 00:35:42,870
You know, the important and essential
care of their, of their dead and
536
00:35:42,870 --> 00:35:49,160
themselves overwhelmingly report back
to us with how satisfied they are,
537
00:35:49,540 --> 00:35:55,509
how, how proud they are, how proud
they know their dead person would be.
538
00:35:56,500 --> 00:36:03,360
And that makes a significant contribution
to their ongoing bereavement compared
539
00:36:03,370 --> 00:36:08,550
to families who say it was taken
off me, that the, you know, that
540
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,549
somebody else was in charge, I didn't
get what I wanted, it was dreadful,
541
00:36:13,740 --> 00:36:15,679
you know, those sort of experiences.
542
00:36:16,149 --> 00:36:20,550
They often carry that complication
to their grief forever.
543
00:36:22,750 --> 00:36:29,120
So, one of our KPIs, if you like, at
Natural Grace, is, uh, we come back after
544
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:34,340
a really big funeral day, and our practice
coordinator will be there waiting for us
545
00:36:34,350 --> 00:36:38,700
to welcome us back into the space, and,
and she'll say to us, how did you go?
546
00:36:39,379 --> 00:36:43,369
And with great joy and glee,
we'll say, we did nothing.
547
00:36:44,470 --> 00:36:47,740
And they, and she goes, yeah, and
sometimes there's champagne and gin.
548
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:48,620
Sometimes it's cups of tea.
549
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:51,570
It just depends on what day of the
week it is and how long the day's been.
550
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,490
And, and what we're
saying in that is we went.
551
00:36:55,980 --> 00:37:01,290
We held the space, but actually
that community did all the work.
552
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,720
So they filled the grave or they
conducted the ceremony or they
553
00:37:06,730 --> 00:37:10,200
carried the coffin or they made the
coffin in the first place, or they
554
00:37:10,670 --> 00:37:13,000
whatever, any number of things here.
555
00:37:13,490 --> 00:37:16,120
So our goal is that we can support.
556
00:37:16,830 --> 00:37:20,430
people to find their own way in it.
557
00:37:20,750 --> 00:37:24,660
And what we know now, after many,
many, many years of this approach
558
00:37:25,059 --> 00:37:30,270
to, to holistic funeral care, is that
that stands them in exceptionally
559
00:37:30,270 --> 00:37:32,529
good stead for the next step of that.
560
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,750
integrated journey that we were talking
about, which is their early bereavement.
561
00:37:37,220 --> 00:37:41,900
So they're coming off this really
firm platform of deep satisfaction,
562
00:37:42,019 --> 00:37:46,910
of pride, of deep respect, of
knowing they've done it themselves.
563
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:48,919
It's such a healer.
564
00:37:49,290 --> 00:37:49,940
It's amazing.
565
00:37:52,020 --> 00:37:53,240
Catherine: That's, that's amazing.
566
00:37:53,900 --> 00:37:57,080
Now, let's just change
it up a little bit Libby.
567
00:37:59,490 --> 00:38:04,030
I was wondering if you can talk me through
what ecurve funerals and green funerals
568
00:38:04,030 --> 00:38:05,419
Libby: are.
569
00:38:05,899 --> 00:38:06,470
I can.
570
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,560
So, our, our definition of
that is what we don't do.
571
00:38:13,110 --> 00:38:14,459
So, if you look at,
572
00:38:16,690 --> 00:38:21,140
at the kind of things that happen
in funerals, care conventionally.
573
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,020
And you might have noticed
throughout this, I've used two terms.
574
00:38:24,020 --> 00:38:27,370
One's traditional care and
one's conventional care.
575
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,900
Conventional care is what I would call the
funeral industry as it stands in general.
576
00:38:31,940 --> 00:38:35,360
It's not bad care, it's not anything,
but it is, it's conventional.
577
00:38:35,729 --> 00:38:41,810
Whereas traditional care to me is, and
to us at Natural Grace, is home, people
578
00:38:41,810 --> 00:38:44,130
dying at home, people being cared at home.
579
00:38:44,430 --> 00:38:49,075
The whole concept of a funeral parlor
came from The dead being laid out in
580
00:38:49,075 --> 00:38:52,575
the front parlor of people's houses,
and that's where it came, you know,
581
00:38:52,905 --> 00:38:58,515
that it's, um, family led, that coffins
are made by family, that the holes
582
00:38:58,515 --> 00:39:01,715
dug by family, the graves filled by
family, the ceremonies, you know, all
583
00:39:01,715 --> 00:39:05,125
those old, beautiful, old rituals.
584
00:39:05,125 --> 00:39:06,615
And that to me is traditional care.
585
00:39:06,824 --> 00:39:09,315
And that's what we are
committed to bringing back.
586
00:39:09,965 --> 00:39:15,600
So if you look at conventional care
in the funeral industry, Globally,
587
00:39:16,340 --> 00:39:21,840
there's a lot of things that happen
that, that don't have to, that have
588
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:23,740
a significant environmental impact.
589
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,904
And some of the examples
are embalming of bodies.
590
00:39:28,275 --> 00:39:34,245
That, that's a process that's
really, really, really needed and,
591
00:39:34,255 --> 00:39:36,035
uh, certainly not legally required.
592
00:39:36,475 --> 00:39:41,214
And, and came from a place I believe
of good intention in the conventional
593
00:39:41,215 --> 00:39:44,934
industry, which is to make dead
people look as nice as they can,
594
00:39:45,165 --> 00:39:51,245
or that they're just asleep or,
or sort of in a kind intention to
595
00:39:53,525 --> 00:39:53,985
ease.
596
00:39:54,455 --> 00:39:55,855
The fact that they are actually dead.
597
00:39:56,665 --> 00:40:02,365
So, there was also a belief that it
was hygienic and yet we know the World
598
00:40:02,365 --> 00:40:07,495
Health Organization says there is no risk
to the living human from a dead human.
599
00:40:07,874 --> 00:40:09,555
There's, that's just not true.
600
00:40:10,795 --> 00:40:11,515
Notable.
601
00:40:12,910 --> 00:40:15,580
I mean, there's a couple of listed
diseases that's the, there's
602
00:40:15,580 --> 00:40:16,890
always an exception to everything.
603
00:40:16,890 --> 00:40:20,649
But for the vast majority of the
population, there is no risk to
604
00:40:20,649 --> 00:40:22,550
the living from, from a dead body.
605
00:40:23,250 --> 00:40:25,089
So hygiene isn't a valid reason.
606
00:40:25,090 --> 00:40:29,879
And there's a list of other
reasons that I might get in trouble
607
00:40:29,879 --> 00:40:31,329
for if I talk about too much.
608
00:40:31,690 --> 00:40:33,480
So embalming is not
something that's needed.
609
00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:40,320
In many parts of the world, graves are
lined with concrete, so that's a whole
610
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,470
lot of resources that just aren't needed.
611
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:48,800
If you look at the construction, the, the
sort of, the life cycle of the materials
612
00:40:48,830 --> 00:40:54,440
and the worker conditions and the place
of manufacture of most coffins that are on
613
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,670
the market is, is, you know, significant.
614
00:40:58,455 --> 00:41:00,335
environmentally damaging.
615
00:41:01,295 --> 00:41:05,175
So, if we look at what is a, I don't
particularly like the word green funeral,
616
00:41:05,255 --> 00:41:08,065
but eco conscious or eco friendly funeral.
617
00:41:08,474 --> 00:41:10,675
We're talking about what we don't do.
618
00:41:11,075 --> 00:41:12,175
We don't embalm.
619
00:41:12,655 --> 00:41:16,635
We don't use coffins that are
full of, uh, glues and, and have
620
00:41:16,665 --> 00:41:18,335
come from a million miles away.
621
00:41:18,675 --> 00:41:20,875
We, we talk about natural burial.
622
00:41:20,885 --> 00:41:26,195
So a shallow, shallow dug grave where
there's lots of oxygen in the soil and
623
00:41:26,195 --> 00:41:31,554
the decomposition of the body is really
rapid, really clean and really low impact
624
00:41:31,565 --> 00:41:35,775
on the environment because the carbon
dioxide gases aren't produced from going
625
00:41:35,775 --> 00:41:37,905
so down so deep where there's no oxygen.
626
00:41:38,550 --> 00:41:40,080
We talk about natural grace.
627
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,530
We're proud to say we've
pioneered the practice of what
628
00:41:43,530 --> 00:41:44,870
we call shrouded cremation.
629
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:49,540
So conducting a cremation without
a coffin at all is simply a shroud
630
00:41:49,570 --> 00:41:51,859
bearer and the body wrapped in cotton.
631
00:41:52,529 --> 00:41:58,210
Uh, so yeah, so it's really, About
how, for us, how we run our business,
632
00:41:58,590 --> 00:42:04,740
so the main resources we need to use
are a fuel for our cars and utilities,
633
00:42:04,749 --> 00:42:10,619
so our electricity for keeping our
cooling going, and they're our main
634
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:16,490
things, so we offset those through
various programs, and And then the
635
00:42:16,490 --> 00:42:18,860
rest of it is, is just not using it.
636
00:42:19,370 --> 00:42:21,080
We don't have chemicals on our site.
637
00:42:21,490 --> 00:42:22,800
We don't embalm bodies.
638
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,930
We encourage shrouded
burial and cremation.
639
00:42:26,140 --> 00:42:31,709
You know, it's, it's really about
saying, how can I leave with as
640
00:42:31,710 --> 00:42:35,790
gentle a print, footprint as I
tried to make in my living time?
641
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,970
And, and that's, that's really what it is.
642
00:42:40,060 --> 00:42:44,240
Catherine: And you've also
embedded these principles into your
643
00:42:44,240 --> 00:42:49,829
sustainability policy and you've
also committed to the environment
644
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:51,860
through your business practices.
645
00:42:52,290 --> 00:42:58,009
I'm referring to your support of the
local land care group and 15 trees.
646
00:42:58,009 --> 00:43:00,100
Can you explain a little
bit about that support?
647
00:43:01,355 --> 00:43:06,625
Libby: So the, the support to land
care, we actually do, uh, through
648
00:43:07,105 --> 00:43:11,605
a financial donation, so an amount
of money per funeral that we feel
649
00:43:11,605 --> 00:43:15,014
we asked them, what was our best
way that we could best help them?
650
00:43:15,435 --> 00:43:18,745
And, and they said that they
need some funds for operating.
651
00:43:19,215 --> 00:43:20,865
So often it's very, um.
652
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:25,810
I'm going to say sexy or appealing to say
let's just plant more and more trees, but
653
00:43:25,850 --> 00:43:31,010
organisations actually need help to be
able to run those tree planting occasions.
654
00:43:31,390 --> 00:43:36,029
And so we just wanted to really be
used to them in a way like that.
655
00:43:36,610 --> 00:43:40,920
And then Fifteen Trees is a great
organisation and we recommend that
656
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:45,500
families access it often instead of
in lieu of flowers, it might be that
657
00:43:45,500 --> 00:43:49,530
people purchase a tree through them
to honour the person that's died.
658
00:43:49,860 --> 00:43:54,505
Again, big offsetting way of,
of, of offsetting uses is by
659
00:43:54,705 --> 00:43:56,565
the tree planting that they do.
660
00:43:57,105 --> 00:44:00,765
And it's run by beautiful people,
and it's just a pleasure to, to
661
00:44:00,765 --> 00:44:02,615
recommend them and align with them.
662
00:44:03,074 --> 00:44:07,165
But essentially Make sure we, we
link, yeah, in the show notes.
663
00:44:07,345 --> 00:44:07,655
Yeah.
664
00:44:07,875 --> 00:44:13,734
Colleen's just a great person and so
dedicated to, to what she's doing.
665
00:44:15,024 --> 00:44:18,965
Catherine: And so they're, they're
planting trees as a carbon offset.
666
00:44:19,925 --> 00:44:20,185
Yeah.
667
00:44:20,185 --> 00:44:20,475
Great.
668
00:44:20,635 --> 00:44:20,935
Yep.
669
00:44:21,145 --> 00:44:21,525
Yeah.
670
00:44:21,765 --> 00:44:22,045
Libby: Yeah.
671
00:44:22,045 --> 00:44:22,525
They're great.
672
00:44:22,955 --> 00:44:25,095
So, and are they out locally near you?
673
00:44:25,835 --> 00:44:29,425
I believe they do tree planting
all over the Australia, or you
674
00:44:29,425 --> 00:44:31,265
know many parts of Australia, yeah.
675
00:44:31,314 --> 00:44:31,995
Catherine: Yeah, great.
676
00:44:32,505 --> 00:44:34,805
Libby: So, you jump on their website
and you'll be able to get a sense
677
00:44:34,805 --> 00:44:39,480
of it, but it's, it's, It's more,
it's how accessible they are.
678
00:44:39,980 --> 00:44:46,330
So families and communities are
often looking for a means to express
679
00:44:46,610 --> 00:44:50,649
their condolence or to express their
gratitude for knowing that person,
680
00:44:51,049 --> 00:44:53,029
and they want to encourage that.
681
00:44:53,300 --> 00:44:57,350
Increasingly, communities want to do
something that they think the person would
682
00:44:57,350 --> 00:45:00,020
have liked, not what they want to do for.
683
00:45:00,730 --> 00:45:07,880
So the, the 15 trees feels this really
lovely, uh, invitation to, to community
684
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:12,590
to say, if your person loved nature,
here's a really great place to put
685
00:45:12,590 --> 00:45:17,850
your 15 or your 25 instead of maybe
doing something that, that didn't
686
00:45:17,860 --> 00:45:20,200
really align as much with that person.
687
00:45:21,065 --> 00:45:21,365
Yeah.
688
00:45:21,395 --> 00:45:22,205
That's beautiful.
689
00:45:23,125 --> 00:45:26,855
Catherine: Now, I thought we could
talk a little bit about your role as
690
00:45:26,865 --> 00:45:32,095
Vice Chair on the Board of the Holistic
End of Life and Death Care Australia.
691
00:45:32,575 --> 00:45:34,425
Uh, that's quite the mouthful.
692
00:45:34,455 --> 00:45:37,885
So Holistic End of Life
and Death Care Australia.
693
00:45:37,885 --> 00:45:39,884
So we call ourselves HELD.
694
00:45:40,065 --> 00:45:40,904
HELD, yes.
695
00:45:41,104 --> 00:45:44,245
I think I'll, I'll, I'll go with
the, the, the acronym of HELD.
696
00:45:44,775 --> 00:45:47,195
So what is the purpose
of the organization?
697
00:45:47,695 --> 00:45:48,615
Talk to me a little bit about it.
698
00:45:49,875 --> 00:45:56,135
Libby: So the purpose is to unify
and give voice to end of life,
699
00:45:56,155 --> 00:46:01,794
holistic end of life practitioners
and that is people such as end of life
700
00:46:01,804 --> 00:46:08,345
doulas, ourselves, holistic funeral
directors, uh, for palliative care.
701
00:46:08,705 --> 00:46:14,085
Workers, volunteers, uh, a lot of
celebrants are looking to practice
702
00:46:14,095 --> 00:46:19,645
holistically to expand their service into,
into life guidance and things as well.
703
00:46:19,994 --> 00:46:23,674
So it's really saying how do we,
how do we come together under one
704
00:46:23,675 --> 00:46:30,115
umbrella as a professional association
and, and, and give voice to, give.
705
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:35,880
guidance to create guidelines of
practice, code of conduct, standards of
706
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:42,070
care, uh, for people who are practicing
in, in the, in this field, because
707
00:46:42,070 --> 00:46:49,280
it's an increasing field of, of, of
professional practice and volunteerism.
708
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:50,150
It, it, it's.
709
00:46:50,715 --> 00:46:55,805
As we've got this aging population, more
and more people are saying, how can I
710
00:46:55,805 --> 00:46:58,265
be in service at this time of my life?
711
00:46:58,735 --> 00:47:01,735
And there's a, a growing, what's the word?
712
00:47:03,215 --> 00:47:07,265
A growing profession really
of end of life workers.
713
00:47:08,335 --> 00:47:11,810
And there's nowhere else that
really says we will lead.
714
00:47:12,830 --> 00:47:17,250
Or create a, create an association,
create a way for us to be united
715
00:47:17,250 --> 00:47:18,400
and connected to each other.
716
00:47:19,620 --> 00:47:22,499
So Held is, is an emerging,
it's, it's, it's very young.
717
00:47:23,190 --> 00:47:27,650
Uh, and the, the lead, the chair
is Helen Callinan, who's the,
718
00:47:27,700 --> 00:47:32,930
in my admiring opinion, is the
leading end of life educator in,
719
00:47:32,990 --> 00:47:34,880
in Australia, possibly the world.
720
00:47:35,310 --> 00:47:38,130
And she's doing a
marvellous job leading that.
721
00:47:39,015 --> 00:47:43,585
the group of us as an executive to how
we can be in service to professionals.
722
00:47:45,405 --> 00:47:50,525
In the olden days, we, we commonly
use the word like pastoral
723
00:47:50,525 --> 00:47:52,745
carer was a, was a known thing.
724
00:47:53,085 --> 00:47:59,625
Often that the institution of
churches, there was, there was a
725
00:47:59,635 --> 00:48:04,755
group of commonly women, but, but
men as well, who provided guidance
726
00:48:04,755 --> 00:48:06,695
and care and support at end of life.
727
00:48:07,310 --> 00:48:10,560
There was often someone in
that group who knew how to wash
728
00:48:10,570 --> 00:48:12,210
the body and lay out the body.
729
00:48:12,570 --> 00:48:16,640
There was, you know, the sort
of community service that came
730
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,380
from institutionalized religion.
731
00:48:19,420 --> 00:48:24,860
And as that, those groups have, have
sort of, well, essentially diminished,
732
00:48:25,149 --> 00:48:26,560
if not disappeared altogether.
733
00:48:27,870 --> 00:48:33,600
There's a, there's a gap in
communities of death literate and,
734
00:48:33,650 --> 00:48:40,150
um, death comfortable people to say,
I know how to navigate this space.
735
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,060
May I be in service to you?
736
00:48:43,260 --> 00:48:49,490
And it, and it sort of came naturally
or, or organically through the
737
00:48:49,660 --> 00:48:54,500
remarkable people that were part of
the, the fellowship or, or the, you
738
00:48:54,500 --> 00:48:56,630
know, in service groups of churches.
739
00:48:57,050 --> 00:48:58,240
And then we kind of lost it.
740
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:03,999
It's those, those people have
aged or died out themselves.
741
00:49:04,810 --> 00:49:04,980
Catherine: And the
742
00:49:04,980 --> 00:49:08,630
Libby: church's institutionalized
religion just isn't, isn't replenishing
743
00:49:08,630 --> 00:49:11,380
itself with that level of volunteerism.
744
00:49:11,870 --> 00:49:17,020
And the economy's not allowing,
particularly traditionally, women to be
745
00:49:17,110 --> 00:49:19,519
just solely at home and volunteering.
746
00:49:19,689 --> 00:49:21,220
So there's this big section that's gone.
747
00:49:21,860 --> 00:49:24,490
Then we've got, uh, an
incredible palliative care.
748
00:49:25,625 --> 00:49:31,275
community and professional, um, response
in our country, big gaps depending on your
749
00:49:31,785 --> 00:49:35,695
postcode lottery, but overwhelmingly when
it, where it is available, it's amazing.
750
00:49:36,595 --> 00:49:40,615
And these are highly skilled
clinical practitioners who have
751
00:49:40,615 --> 00:49:45,255
got caseloads that far exceed
anybody's reasonable timeframes.
752
00:49:45,735 --> 00:49:48,915
And so we, we, uh, we know there's a gap.
753
00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:54,510
Between not what's wanted to be
offered and by no means a criticism
754
00:49:54,510 --> 00:49:58,610
of palliative care in any way, that
it's not possible to meet the need.
755
00:49:59,350 --> 00:50:04,180
And so, the end of life doula in
particular is, is coming into that space
756
00:50:04,180 --> 00:50:09,450
and saying, we are a non clinical, we
never give medical advice or intervene
757
00:50:09,450 --> 00:50:13,010
in any way in the clinical or medical
advice given by palliative care,
758
00:50:13,390 --> 00:50:14,429
or the doctors or, or the nurses.
759
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:14,850
anyone.
760
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:20,050
But we're a social, emotional,
spiritual support resource and
761
00:50:20,050 --> 00:50:23,130
response to human need at end of life.
762
00:50:24,339 --> 00:50:26,779
And, and that, that
field is growing rapidly.
763
00:50:27,260 --> 00:50:31,880
And, and so Held came into the space
to say, how can we represent you?
764
00:50:33,025 --> 00:50:37,955
Uh, and so, yeah, it's a beautiful group,
amazing group of people, and some really
765
00:50:37,955 --> 00:50:44,355
great ideas coming around and a lot of
resource sharing, but also providing to,
766
00:50:44,645 --> 00:50:51,304
to classically palliative care, amongst
others, other health settings, that if you
767
00:50:51,365 --> 00:50:57,060
use a, an end of life doula or an other
holistic practitioner who is a registered
768
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:02,160
member of HELD, then you can be assured
that that person is being supported,
769
00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:05,909
that they've got guidelines, that they
are, you know, complying with the code
770
00:51:05,909 --> 00:51:09,770
of conduct, that they've got insurance,
that, you know, all those things.
771
00:51:10,269 --> 00:51:17,839
So, uh, it's an important piece of work
because good intentions alone don't
772
00:51:17,899 --> 00:51:24,130
give you a ticket to waltz into Peter
Mac and say, well, I'm here to help.
773
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,990
You know, everybody else in that
place has got insurance and a code
774
00:51:28,990 --> 00:51:33,819
of conduct and you know, guided by
standards of care and who are held
775
00:51:33,820 --> 00:51:36,729
account and there's a complaints
policy and, and all those things.
776
00:51:36,730 --> 00:51:38,670
That's just a reality of our time.
777
00:51:39,130 --> 00:51:45,959
And, and with deep respect, there's people
in the end of life community who disagree.
778
00:51:46,699 --> 00:51:49,279
They think that death care or
end of life care should be free.
779
00:51:49,905 --> 00:51:53,675
Anybody to anybody and within
families and within personal
780
00:51:53,675 --> 00:51:55,575
relationships, of course, that's true.
781
00:51:56,215 --> 00:52:01,515
But I think if you're purporting to
offer a service, then it's important
782
00:52:01,524 --> 00:52:06,214
that you come with the support of a
professional association that, that
783
00:52:06,225 --> 00:52:10,935
backs you up and, and not supports
you, but also holds you to account.
784
00:52:11,845 --> 00:52:12,875
Catherine: I agree with you, Bibi.
785
00:52:12,875 --> 00:52:18,655
You know, as someone who is not an expert
in death care, uh, that was the first
786
00:52:18,675 --> 00:52:23,905
thing that I thought that if I was going
to be referring anyone, I need to be
787
00:52:23,905 --> 00:52:26,175
referring them to industry associations.
788
00:52:26,204 --> 00:52:28,635
So there is that quality assurance.
789
00:52:28,664 --> 00:52:30,245
There is that code of conduct.
790
00:52:30,740 --> 00:52:36,810
They can also find someone locally that is
a member so they can reach out to someone,
791
00:52:37,170 --> 00:52:41,990
uh, that they don't have to hopefully, you
know, go too far to find someone, whatever
792
00:52:41,990 --> 00:52:44,260
their need be, uh, at whatever stage.
793
00:52:44,690 --> 00:52:47,100
So, you know, I totally,
totally support that.
794
00:52:47,779 --> 00:52:51,740
Now tell me, you offer specialized
funeral care for infants.
795
00:52:52,860 --> 00:52:55,349
How has all of that came about?
796
00:52:55,740 --> 00:53:01,500
And, and talk me through the, the care
and, and, and what is the specialized care
797
00:53:01,500 --> 00:53:03,780
that's offered when you look at infants?
798
00:53:04,170 --> 00:53:05,360
Libby: Yeah, yeah.
799
00:53:06,350 --> 00:53:08,020
There is different types of grief.
800
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:09,859
There just is.
801
00:53:10,515 --> 00:53:17,805
And the grief we experience when an elder
dies, who's lived a big, long, full, full
802
00:53:17,805 --> 00:53:24,225
of challenges, full of joys, full of ups
and downs life, we're, we're in a place
803
00:53:24,225 --> 00:53:26,205
of being able to gently let them go.
804
00:53:27,155 --> 00:53:34,049
And that grief is, is, is fairly
manageable for, for, for us as people.
805
00:53:35,460 --> 00:53:41,070
And then you, you, not everything I
say is for everybody, of course, but
806
00:53:41,100 --> 00:53:47,780
in general people can, can grieve
their elders relatively comfortably.
807
00:53:49,860 --> 00:53:56,800
When you have sudden death at any age,
but in the adult population in particular,
808
00:53:57,540 --> 00:54:01,810
there's a level of trauma that goes
alongside or can be a level of trauma.
809
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,919
So what's defined as a traumatic
death is quite different to
810
00:54:04,919 --> 00:54:06,419
what's defined as a sudden death.
811
00:54:07,289 --> 00:54:13,260
So traumatic death often involves violence
or negligence or some other factor.
812
00:54:13,650 --> 00:54:15,040
Whereas a sudden death can be.
813
00:54:15,285 --> 00:54:19,935
your class six sort of has a heart
attack and die, awful and sad.
814
00:54:20,315 --> 00:54:24,344
But it's not because someone else
did something wrong, like a car
815
00:54:24,344 --> 00:54:29,934
incident or medical negligence or,
you know, suicide is another layer.
816
00:54:30,295 --> 00:54:34,865
So we do respond differently
to different death experiences.
817
00:54:35,435 --> 00:54:44,080
And when babies die, When pregnancies
are lost, the grief experience and the
818
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:50,560
response of, of parents, young parents
often, is, is a different form of, of
819
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:56,589
grief and a different form of response
and the loss is multifaceted because
820
00:54:57,270 --> 00:55:02,076
not only has the pregnancy been lost,
if you like, and the The theme of
821
00:55:02,076 --> 00:55:06,785
the present is The hopes and dreams
of the future have also been lost.
822
00:55:07,145 --> 00:55:10,884
The vision that was held
for how this family unit was
823
00:55:10,884 --> 00:55:13,005
going to be created is lost.
824
00:55:13,945 --> 00:55:19,205
And depending on the stage of pregnancy,
there's, and this is just, this is solely
825
00:55:19,205 --> 00:55:21,415
my experience and my personal opinion.
826
00:55:21,415 --> 00:55:26,720
I don't, this is not based in any
medical or clinical, Evidence, this is,
827
00:55:27,910 --> 00:55:33,590
um, what I think, there's, there's a
surreal point in pregnancies that I've
828
00:55:33,590 --> 00:55:41,120
seen where baby, if you like, is the
pregnancy of the, of the person, whether
829
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:47,949
it be the mother or, or both parents, and
often of a whole family, bigger family.
830
00:55:48,710 --> 00:55:54,710
And somewhere in the pregnancy, it,
the focus actually is, oh, there's an
831
00:55:54,710 --> 00:55:56,810
actual baby in another person in there.
832
00:55:57,750 --> 00:56:03,010
And that's where we differentiate
between pregnancy loss and a stillbirth
833
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,310
or pregnancy loss and the baby died.
834
00:56:07,079 --> 00:56:10,979
Because there's a point and for
some people, it's around the point
835
00:56:10,979 --> 00:56:14,379
of viability, you know, where if
that baby was born, they would live,
836
00:56:14,789 --> 00:56:16,500
even if they had complications.
837
00:56:16,860 --> 00:56:20,800
For some families, it's even just
past 20 weeks when the pregnancy
838
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,070
is considered a registrable birth.
839
00:56:23,900 --> 00:56:28,400
Before 20 weeks, it's not, uh, you
know, any number of things, but there
840
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:33,140
seems to be a point where the pregnancy
is lost versus the baby is lost.
841
00:56:33,279 --> 00:56:38,009
And that is an interesting difference
in how, even in that one community,
842
00:56:38,010 --> 00:56:39,320
people respond differently.
843
00:56:40,010 --> 00:56:46,750
So we felt very strongly that we had
a skillset in our holistic practice
844
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:52,380
to be really able to come alongside
young Parents or parents often who
845
00:56:52,380 --> 00:56:57,970
are often young and, and, and say,
how can we be with you in a really
846
00:56:57,980 --> 00:57:04,059
modern context as to how you may want
to honor the life of your baby or to
847
00:57:04,100 --> 00:57:06,390
acknowledge and recognize this pregnancy?
848
00:57:07,910 --> 00:57:08,280
And.
849
00:57:09,885 --> 00:57:14,665
So it's a particular approach that,
that we take, uh, that's about 2 percent
850
00:57:14,665 --> 00:57:20,985
funeral directing and 98 percent holistic
guidance and care and holding space and
851
00:57:22,475 --> 00:57:24,175
creating opportunities for parenting.
852
00:57:25,165 --> 00:57:30,069
So we offer vigils for families so
that, you know, babies, you know,
853
00:57:30,350 --> 00:57:36,440
Mostly, they're born in hospital,
their parents, hospitals have become
854
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:41,850
incredibly good and beautiful at after
death care, and they use cuddle cots and
855
00:57:41,850 --> 00:57:45,189
all sorts of things to support families
to keep their babies close to them.
856
00:57:45,530 --> 00:57:48,969
The days of babies being whipped
away and all that are gone, thank
857
00:57:48,980 --> 00:57:52,390
goodness, and, but still they're
still in a hospital setting.
858
00:57:53,110 --> 00:57:58,350
So, commonly day two, day three,
they go home and the baby might
859
00:57:58,350 --> 00:58:01,310
stay at the hospital to be then
transferred to the funeral director
860
00:58:01,310 --> 00:58:02,500
or whatever's going to happen.
861
00:58:03,630 --> 00:58:08,350
And what, what we've found is there's
an increasing interest in babies
862
00:58:08,350 --> 00:58:10,509
being taken home with the parents.
863
00:58:10,510 --> 00:58:12,360
Like the family still go home together.
864
00:58:12,490 --> 00:58:15,680
So we, support that,
escort that transfer home.
865
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:21,570
We use either a special form of dry
ice or what's called a cuddle cot, like
866
00:58:21,579 --> 00:58:26,579
a little cooling unit to support the
care of the baby's body and, and take
867
00:58:26,579 --> 00:58:28,190
the family home and settle them in.
868
00:58:29,009 --> 00:58:31,089
And, and beautiful things can happen.
869
00:58:31,090 --> 00:58:35,760
The cot gets used, the baby often is still
put in the pram and taken for a walk,
870
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:40,360
can meet the family dog, grandparents
can come and visit, like a lot of magic
871
00:58:40,370 --> 00:58:42,500
can happen in those couple of days.
872
00:58:42,790 --> 00:58:43,320
Ooh.
873
00:58:43,740 --> 00:58:47,760
And if that's not suitable for families
young, the parents often come with,
874
00:58:47,980 --> 00:58:53,315
with, You know, grandparents or aunties
and uncles or other siblings, uh, to
875
00:58:53,465 --> 00:58:55,985
our sanctuary and, and have a vigil day.
876
00:58:56,725 --> 00:59:00,175
And in that time they could maybe
bath the baby and dress the baby.
877
00:59:00,180 --> 00:59:02,275
They often prepare the coffin.
878
00:59:02,275 --> 00:59:09,365
One of my most amazing vigils was, uh,
the family were in our, our lounge room.
879
00:59:09,365 --> 00:59:13,325
So our sanctuaries look like a
family home, and there's a television
880
00:59:13,325 --> 00:59:14,615
just popped off on one of the.
881
00:59:14,875 --> 00:59:15,955
Credences in the side.
882
00:59:16,395 --> 00:59:21,805
And I came back into the room one day,
and Dad was fully stretched out on the
883
00:59:21,805 --> 00:59:28,294
couch, had turned the telly on, put the
footy on, and his, his, and you know,
884
00:59:28,405 --> 00:59:34,504
it's hard, but his dead baby, his, his
stillborn baby was snuggled into his chest
885
00:59:35,295 --> 00:59:40,165
in that classic Dad style of, of the baby
lying on their chest watching the footy.
886
00:59:40,645 --> 00:59:43,110
And I just thought, What more do you need?
887
00:59:43,210 --> 00:59:48,960
Like it was just, he parented
his boy in that moment, in
888
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:50,370
the way that he needed to do.
889
00:59:51,450 --> 00:59:57,520
So to say as a funeral company that
we've got a space for you to come to,
890
00:59:58,270 --> 01:00:02,259
where if you want to, you can watch
the footy and cuddle your dead baby.
891
01:00:03,089 --> 01:00:04,905
Uh, Yep.
892
01:00:04,945 --> 01:00:05,475
We can do that.
893
01:00:07,155 --> 01:00:12,505
And I just, that's why it's a specialist
response because with no, again, with
894
01:00:12,505 --> 01:00:17,535
no assertion on any other funeral
company, conventionally, that's
895
01:00:17,535 --> 01:00:18,715
not a service that's been offered.
896
01:00:18,715 --> 01:00:22,114
It's not that anybody's done anything
wrong, they just don't offer it.
897
01:00:22,734 --> 01:00:26,754
And so we just thought, no, there
has to be a way of, of creating
898
01:00:27,155 --> 01:00:29,095
moments for these parents.
899
01:00:29,770 --> 01:00:36,490
That, that lets them parent their child
and, and, and we've got many, many,
900
01:00:36,490 --> 01:00:41,809
many other examples of, of how we create
parenting opportunities in that, in
901
01:00:41,809 --> 01:00:48,499
that minute so that they can release
their baby, uh, knowing that they got
902
01:00:48,499 --> 01:00:49,940
every single moment that they could.
903
01:00:51,060 --> 01:00:51,290
Yeah.
904
01:00:51,510 --> 01:00:52,680
That's really beautiful.
905
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:58,140
Catherine: Um, you're also the
founder and managing director
906
01:00:58,630 --> 01:01:00,760
of the Willow Tree Foundation.
907
01:01:01,895 --> 01:01:05,815
Do you mind sharing your story about
why you started the organisation?
908
01:01:05,815 --> 01:01:07,044
In
909
01:01:08,025 --> 01:01:13,295
Libby: a way it's similar to the,
the, the response to infant care.
910
01:01:15,774 --> 01:01:19,395
Paediatric death is awful.
911
01:01:19,820 --> 01:01:23,800
It's, it's just awful,
the loss of a child.
912
01:01:24,130 --> 01:01:30,340
And again, we were talking before
about differing grief, it, that does
913
01:01:30,340 --> 01:01:32,640
not imply more or less in any way.
914
01:01:32,740 --> 01:01:33,610
It's just different.
915
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:39,829
And the parenting a child that's
dying, or parenting a child who's
916
01:01:39,829 --> 01:01:42,949
died suddenly, uh, is a very.
917
01:01:43,575 --> 01:01:49,195
Different, again, experience than
if an elder dies or if a, uh, you
918
01:01:49,195 --> 01:01:54,224
know, 55 year old dies or, or even
if a pregnancy is lost because that
919
01:01:54,224 --> 01:01:55,935
child has lived their own life.
920
01:01:56,685 --> 01:02:00,584
And again, there's no, this is, does
not imply any degree of better or worse.
921
01:02:00,934 --> 01:02:01,955
It's just different.
922
01:02:02,735 --> 01:02:07,235
And often there's other children
in the household or, you know,
923
01:02:07,275 --> 01:02:08,885
and, and the, and friends.
924
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:13,100
and school community and
sports that they've belonged
925
01:02:13,100 --> 01:02:14,620
to and all sorts of things.
926
01:02:14,630 --> 01:02:19,420
So the, the care of children
and, and young people.
927
01:02:19,790 --> 01:02:23,670
So the Willow Tree, we provide guidance
and care and support to families
928
01:02:24,010 --> 01:02:26,559
with children up to dependent 25.
929
01:02:26,930 --> 01:02:30,940
So uni students and everybody,
anyway, that's still dependent.
930
01:02:32,030 --> 01:02:36,490
And the responses are different
and, and, and very specific.
931
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:39,460
They take a lot of time.
932
01:02:40,235 --> 01:02:44,515
A lot of time there's not, there's a
sort of a bit of a misunderstanding in
933
01:02:44,515 --> 01:02:48,245
the community that a child's funeral
or a baby's funeral should be cheaper
934
01:02:48,814 --> 01:02:50,794
than a, than an adult's funeral.
935
01:02:51,685 --> 01:02:55,954
And, and, and they are because you know,
the funeral industry generally is very
936
01:02:55,954 --> 01:03:00,925
kind and does make these things cheaper,
but they actually are a lot more work.
937
01:03:00,975 --> 01:03:05,345
There's so much more complexity
of grief in the pediatric death.
938
01:03:06,350 --> 01:03:12,050
And, and so many more people, grandparents
are deeply, deeply involved, aunties,
939
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:16,550
uncles, schools, teachers, mates,
friends, the friends parents, the friends
940
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:19,460
siblings, like it's huge, absolutely huge.
941
01:03:19,770 --> 01:03:25,030
So that takes a very, very
committed and personalised approach.
942
01:03:25,730 --> 01:03:30,830
And we found, or we felt that, um.
943
01:03:31,770 --> 01:03:38,120
We could share those resources by
setting up a charity and having that
944
01:03:38,410 --> 01:03:43,939
not for profit environment to be
able to make those resources really
945
01:03:43,940 --> 01:03:48,899
available and comfortably referred
by health settings in particular.
946
01:03:49,570 --> 01:03:56,520
So, the health sector is very, very loathe
to, to refer to a private provider, uh,
947
01:03:56,550 --> 01:03:58,050
particularly in the funeral industry.
948
01:03:58,389 --> 01:04:03,789
And so, we just wanted to make those
resources really available, um, usable
949
01:04:03,789 --> 01:04:08,720
by anyone, no obligation to do anything,
just take the information and go.
950
01:04:09,410 --> 01:04:12,120
And so, that's, that's where
the willow tree came from.
951
01:04:13,460 --> 01:04:19,240
And uh, yeah, it's, it's, It's, again,
it's, it's growing all the time.
952
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:23,540
There's, there's so much work
that can be done in that space.
953
01:04:23,970 --> 01:04:28,269
One of our most closely held,
uh, opportunities that we have
954
01:04:28,269 --> 01:04:31,430
through the Willow Tree is to
work with other stakeholders.
955
01:04:32,010 --> 01:04:37,090
So we connect with, there's a couple
in, in Australia, there's three
956
01:04:37,500 --> 01:04:41,510
primary children's hospices in
Brisbane, in Sydney, and in Melbourne.
957
01:04:42,300 --> 01:04:45,150
And there's a group growing to
create one in Perth as well.
958
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:49,620
And we work with the stakeholder, with
the other, you know, the participants
959
01:04:49,620 --> 01:04:55,539
in those places to provide education on
how to support children's bodies after
960
01:04:55,540 --> 01:04:58,190
death, in after death care at the hospice.
961
01:04:58,570 --> 01:05:00,989
You know, what are the funeral
choices that are available?
962
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:02,600
How can we minimize costs?
963
01:05:02,930 --> 01:05:08,760
So stakeholder education and, and, and
sharing what we know so that others
964
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:14,770
can give it to Freely and without
cost is really important to us and
965
01:05:14,820 --> 01:05:16,430
that's what the willow tree is for.
966
01:05:17,530 --> 01:05:23,479
Catherine: That's amazing because
so commonly you find organisations
967
01:05:23,500 --> 01:05:27,420
that protect, especially in the
corporate environment, protect that
968
01:05:27,420 --> 01:05:31,510
information and, and, you know,
make sure that they don't share it.
969
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:36,725
So the fact that you've actually set
this up with the, Purpose of actually
970
01:05:36,735 --> 01:05:41,215
sharing those resources across the
board and, you know, sharing those
971
01:05:41,215 --> 01:05:45,355
experiences of what you've learned with
the other organizations is fantastic.
972
01:05:45,385 --> 01:05:48,085
That's really, really
beautiful, especially in a space
973
01:05:48,085 --> 01:05:49,784
where it's, it's so needed.
974
01:05:49,795 --> 01:05:51,335
So that's really lovely.
975
01:05:52,585 --> 01:05:53,105
Yeah, thank you.
976
01:05:53,835 --> 01:05:57,665
And obviously you have a
lot of experience Libby.
977
01:05:58,355 --> 01:06:02,075
From your experience, what would
you say that you think would be,
978
01:06:02,115 --> 01:06:06,855
is the hardest thing that you see
families dealing with when it comes
979
01:06:06,875 --> 01:06:08,995
to, to the death of a loved one?
980
01:06:10,345 --> 01:06:15,305
Libby: I think the hardest thing
is, is tension or even conflict
981
01:06:15,615 --> 01:06:21,605
between what people thought a person
wanted and what they either did
982
01:06:21,655 --> 01:06:26,055
want or what another person, another
decision maker, thought they wanted.
983
01:06:26,865 --> 01:06:33,855
So on, on a easily explainable level,
once, you know, one sibling might say,
984
01:06:34,125 --> 01:06:37,930
mum, absolutely wanted to have, uh, mass.
985
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:44,459
And then the other sibling might say, uh,
no, mum's got cranky with the church in
986
01:06:44,459 --> 01:06:47,810
the last couple of years and I don't know
that she would have wanted that anymore.
987
01:06:48,070 --> 01:06:51,999
And, you know, so I'm just
picking something easy to explain.
988
01:06:51,999 --> 01:06:53,850
Oh, I want pink flowers
and she wanted purple.
989
01:06:53,850 --> 01:06:54,160
I don't know.
990
01:06:54,239 --> 01:06:54,669
Pick something.
991
01:06:54,669 --> 01:06:54,959
Yeah.
992
01:06:55,519 --> 01:06:56,019
And.
993
01:06:56,875 --> 01:07:06,355
The, the gift, the absolute gift that is
an advanced care directive and some form
994
01:07:06,405 --> 01:07:11,815
of instructions It can be jotted down on
the back of a serviette and chucked in
995
01:07:11,815 --> 01:07:13,355
the top drawer, doesn't matter what it is.
996
01:07:13,795 --> 01:07:16,285
But yes, I would like burial or cremation.
997
01:07:16,675 --> 01:07:21,335
Yes, I would like mass to be said for
me or no, do not take me to church.
998
01:07:21,695 --> 01:07:22,484
Yes, I would.
999
01:07:22,484 --> 01:07:23,065
Yes, I wouldn't.
1000
01:07:23,075 --> 01:07:23,644
No, I would.
1001
01:07:23,644 --> 01:07:24,105
No, I wouldn't.
1002
01:07:24,115 --> 01:07:27,835
Just some even very,
very simple instructions.
1003
01:07:28,955 --> 01:07:34,825
The gift it gives to families who
can say, this is what mum wanted.
1004
01:07:36,155 --> 01:07:40,865
And it, it's that those
instructions allow plenty of room
1005
01:07:41,075 --> 01:07:43,085
for choice and personalizing.
1006
01:07:43,085 --> 01:07:47,495
I'm not a subscriber to prepaid funerals
and, and, you know, dictating from
1007
01:07:47,495 --> 01:07:48,785
the grave this is what will happen.
1008
01:07:49,415 --> 01:07:54,915
But I absolutely know that if
every single one of us could leave
1009
01:07:54,920 --> 01:08:00,695
instructions or a guide to, uh,
the people that love us, that say,
1010
01:08:00,755 --> 01:08:07,015
please bury me, don't cremate me, or,
you know, dah, dah, dah, then that.
1011
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:08,760
It's just a gift.
1012
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:10,080
It's an act of love.
1013
01:08:10,470 --> 01:08:13,610
And we're also scared of having these
conversations, and we don't, I don't
1014
01:08:13,610 --> 01:08:18,630
want to upset people is the commonly
said thing, but the, the upset
1015
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:24,139
that's caused by not having those
conversations, uh, is, is heartbreaking
1016
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:26,149
really, and can split families.
1017
01:08:27,450 --> 01:08:28,700
So it's a gift.
1018
01:08:28,970 --> 01:08:30,060
It's responsible.
1019
01:08:30,870 --> 01:08:31,540
Please.
1020
01:08:31,930 --> 01:08:37,370
Just plan, doesn't have to be
detailed and complex, but plan and
1021
01:08:37,370 --> 01:08:39,030
share with your family what you want.
1022
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:42,830
And if we got that fixed, then
a lot of the grief I see would
1023
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:45,250
be minimized or even avoided.
1024
01:08:47,949 --> 01:08:51,290
Catherine: Well, I think that's
exceptionally good advice, Libby.
1025
01:08:51,939 --> 01:08:52,709
I thought you might.
1026
01:08:54,879 --> 01:08:58,380
Is there anything else that you'd like to
share with us before we finish up, Libby?
1027
01:08:58,970 --> 01:09:01,910
Libby: Oh, no, I think, I think
your questions have been marvellous
1028
01:09:01,950 --> 01:09:05,400
and, and, and interesting and a
bit different than what is commonly
1029
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:07,300
asked, so that's, that's great.
1030
01:09:07,850 --> 01:09:16,929
I think, uh, I don't know, I think, I
thought, what comes down to authenticity,
1031
01:09:16,940 --> 01:09:19,500
Catherine, you know, if, if people.
1032
01:09:20,730 --> 01:09:27,750
If people die in their place, preferred
place, if they die with the things around
1033
01:09:27,750 --> 01:09:31,939
them that they can smell what they like,
that they hear happy voices, that they
1034
01:09:31,939 --> 01:09:36,650
could hear the radio going on the same
station that they always had, that they,
1035
01:09:37,050 --> 01:09:40,979
their last thing they taste is really
good champagne or a fresh beer or a
1036
01:09:40,979 --> 01:09:42,800
little dob of something on their tongue.
1037
01:09:43,500 --> 01:09:49,360
If they, if the people around them, uh,
are cared for, you can die comfortably,
1038
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:58,269
and if that happens, then the
people that have loved you can
1039
01:09:58,270 --> 01:10:00,429
recover, they recover well.
1040
01:10:01,319 --> 01:10:05,590
Now this idea of closure is rubbish,
but if you can recover, you can
1041
01:10:05,670 --> 01:10:10,630
integrate loss into your future, and
you can carry that person with you.
1042
01:10:12,170 --> 01:10:14,720
With a smile on your face, even if
there's still lots of tears, you
1043
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:16,260
can still have a smile on your face.
1044
01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:20,580
And I think we can prepare for death well.
1045
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:23,849
I think we can experience
death consciously.
1046
01:10:24,670 --> 01:10:32,389
And if we hold each other holistically
and gently, then we can, we can
1047
01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:34,450
have our, have people we love die.
1048
01:10:34,580 --> 01:10:35,690
And we can be okay.
1049
01:10:36,710 --> 01:10:42,620
And that, that, I think is that
comes to an issue of our well being.
1050
01:10:43,510 --> 01:10:44,690
It's a health issue.
1051
01:10:45,450 --> 01:10:49,810
We can avoid minimized
complicated bereavement outcomes.
1052
01:10:50,750 --> 01:10:54,799
That then has an impact on our
health budget and our health systems.
1053
01:10:55,650 --> 01:10:58,240
We don't have to be destroyed by death.
1054
01:10:59,480 --> 01:11:00,500
It can be okay.
1055
01:11:03,380 --> 01:11:06,400
Catherine: Well, thank you for
the part that you and your team
1056
01:11:06,470 --> 01:11:10,300
play in making it that little
bit easier for families as well.
1057
01:11:10,900 --> 01:11:11,570
Thank you.
1058
01:11:12,069 --> 01:11:12,730
What a pleasure.
1059
01:11:12,940 --> 01:11:13,330
Thanks.
1060
01:11:13,340 --> 01:11:13,990
Thanks Libby.
1061
01:11:16,210 --> 01:11:19,670
We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,
1062
01:11:19,940 --> 01:11:21,530
brought to you by Critical Info.
1063
01:11:21,530 --> 01:11:26,720
If you liked the episode, learnt something
new, or were touched by a story you
1064
01:11:26,720 --> 01:11:28,380
heard, we'd love for you to let us know.
1065
01:11:28,830 --> 01:11:32,410
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1066
01:11:32,410 --> 01:11:34,140
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1067
01:11:34,330 --> 01:11:38,450
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1068
01:11:38,460 --> 01:11:40,189
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1069
01:11:40,510 --> 01:11:41,870
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1070
01:11:42,010 --> 01:11:45,480
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1071
01:11:45,780 --> 01:11:47,370
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1072
01:11:47,799 --> 01:11:49,670
Head to don'tbecaughtdead.
1073
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:53,080
com for more information
and loads of resources.
Read Less
Resources
- Critical Info Resource Hub
- My loved one died, what do I do now?
- Natural Grace official website: www.naturalgrace.com.au
- Holding you. Holding your child online booklet, a resource provided by Natural Grace when supporting families through children and baby funerals.
- The Willow Tree Foundation, Specialised End of Life Care for Children & Young People
- Holistic End of Life and Death Care Aust Inc (HELD)
- Dying to Know Day, an initiative aimed at improving death literacy: www.dyingtoknowday.org