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00:00:00,050 --> 00:00:03,960
Libby Neesham: My brain wanted to
explode because I was raised in a
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conservative family, but somehow
my heart and soul was a feminist.
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And my mum came from this really super
conservative upbringing and she was
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writing a will and she, she made this
decision that everything in the family,
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00:00:21,030 --> 00:00:25,360
any fina ... Read More

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00:00:00,050 --> 00:00:03,960
Libby Neesham: My brain wanted to
explode because I was raised in a
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00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:08,029
conservative family, but somehow
my heart and soul was a feminist.
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00:00:08,450 --> 00:00:14,469
And my mum came from this really super
conservative upbringing and she was
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00:00:14,469 --> 00:00:20,700
writing a will and she, she made this
decision that everything in the family,
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00:00:21,030 --> 00:00:25,360
any financial benefit went to my eldest
brother because he was the oldest boy.
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And I just looked at my mum and I
went, you've got to be kidding me.
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I just went, dude, no, like you've got
four kids, just split it four ways.
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Catherine Ashton: Welcome to
Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast
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00:00:41,144 --> 00:00:45,264
encouraging open conversations about
dying and the death of a loved one.
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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to
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00:00:50,764 --> 00:00:53,264
bring your stories of death back to life.

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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.
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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations
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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.
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We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging, and extend
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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First
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Nation peoples around the globe.
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Libby, thank you for joining us today.
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I was just wondering if you could
tell us a little bit about yourself.
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Libby Neesham: Hi, Catherine.
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Look, it's such a pleasure to be here,
and I'm so grateful that you, uh,
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contacted me and asked me to share my
experience because, uh, this is something
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that I just think is so important.
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In terms of who I am, there are lots
of parts of me, uh, you know, this is,
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this is a very human thing that I've
learned through my experiences is that
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we're, we all have different parts, so
the things that are important to me,
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I'm, I'm a, I'm a woman, I'm a mum.
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I'm a partner.
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Uh, I am a daughter.
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I am a sister.
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My family is, uh, super important to me.
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When it comes to who I am, when I express
myself, I'm an artist, I'm an educator,
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and I'm a fierce ally for Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander peoples.
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I believe very, very strongly in
acknowledging, recognizing, and
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celebrating the strength of First
Nations people, but also, uh, you
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know, being really honest about
the true history of Australia, so.
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As somebody who comes from an Anglo
coloniser background, uh, I believe
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really strongly in restitution
and recognition and sovereignty.
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So, that's part of who
I am, and I'm kooky.
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That'll do.
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Catherine Ashton: That's a, that's
a great expression of who you are.
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I love that.
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Now, tell me, I went to school
with you and we've only just
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recently got into contact again
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so
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Catherine Ashton: Tell me, when we first
got in contact, you'd actually mentioned

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that you had had quite a few people
close to you that had actually died.
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Do you feel comfortable telling
us a little bit more about
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those people that have, have,
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have died in your life?
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Libby Neesham: Yeah, absolutely.
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I think that, uh, conversations about
death and dying are essential and also
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being able to share experience and, and
stories around death is really important.
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So, Uh, I'm, I'm very, very
comfortable with talking about it.
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I want to be able to celebrate what
we do when somebody dies, but also,
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uh, probably part of a, part of my
journey has been really difficult when
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people have passed away in my life.
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And so, This is an opportunity to

signpost some of the things that I
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found really difficult, uh, and in
some cases were really harmful for me
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about the process and the experiences
that happened when people died.
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And
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Catherine Ashton: can you perhaps talk
me through One particular incident,
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uh, where someone close to you died?
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Libby Neesham: Can I talk you through two?
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Catherine Ashton: Yeah, sure.
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Libby Neesham: Yeah, great.
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Awesome.
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Because I think the manner in which
somebody leaves our lives, uh, is
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to an extent it determines what
sort of experience we might have.
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And, uh, I have lost both of my

parents, my mother and my father.
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And, uh, they passed away
in very different ways.
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And so my experience was
very different both times.
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And as much as nothing prepares
you, you sort of, if you've lost
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one parent, you think, I've done
this before, I can do it again.
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But it is different.
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It's very, very different.
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So, uh, with my dad, my dad
had a long term illness.
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He was diagnosed with lung cancer.
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And so, from when he was diagnosed,
which was in around October, Uh, he
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then, uh, had treatment and he was not
diagnosed as terminally ill until the
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following March and he passed away in
May, so it was a really long journey

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with him and also when we found out that
he was unwell, I was living overseas
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at the time, I was 17 years old and I
had Uh, taken what seems to be a really
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common thing these days, the gap year.
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Back in the olden days, the
gap years weren't a thing.
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But I went and I took one
because I was very young when
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I graduated from high school.
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And, uh, so I was
overseas when he got sick.
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And there was lots of different
decisions that needed to be made
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for me, but also around the family.
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And then there was a journey of Six months
where, uh, it was really an end of life
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for my dad and it was an, it was a saying
goodbye over six months gradually and, and
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the experiences that went with that, it
was a very different scenario with my mom.
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My mom was, I was single and living out
of home and I was in my late twenties and
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partying and up and being a young person.
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And, uh, we had a really, really
strong relationship, so I would often.
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Um, go home to the country because come
from a country town and I was living
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up in the big smoke and I would go home
as often as I could and spend my time
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with her and we were very, very close.
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Uh, she had a sudden heart attack and It
was incredibly unexpected, very sudden,
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and, uh, it was also a different kind
of grieving because I was almost saying
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goodbye to both of my parents again, and
having to acknowledge for myself that
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I was now an orphan, uh, and it sounds
ridiculous to say that you're an orphan
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when you're 27, but you do, you feel, you

feel it, you really do feel it when, when
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those parental figures are both gone.
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Uh, it is a, it's a
different kind of hollowness.
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So, uh, I want, uh, yeah, I wanted
to say both because I think that
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00:07:10,425 --> 00:07:15,975
both are different journeys and both
were, They impacted in different ways
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00:07:17,275 --> 00:07:19,735
Catherine Ashton: and how would you
say that they had actually impacted
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00:07:19,735 --> 00:07:25,255
you when you look at the Length of time
that you had with your father knowing
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that he was terminal And then the lack
of time that you had when your mother died
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00:07:30,755 --> 00:07:37,574
Libby Neesham: Yeah, I
I think that both both events
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for me We're really traumatic.
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00:07:41,629 --> 00:07:50,460
With my dad, having the time with him
was special and it was important and it
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00:07:50,479 --> 00:07:56,020
was the sort of growth that no 17 year
old should need to go through, but it

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was that that was just what what I got.
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That was what I got.
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So that's what I did.
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And I learned a lot about myself
and I learned a lot about my dad
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and my relationship with my dad.
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00:08:08,079 --> 00:08:15,885
It gave me time to, uh, you know,
almost suddenly become an adult
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to be able to be an adult with him
because I was going to lose that.
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00:08:20,705 --> 00:08:25,625
I wasn't going to be able to go through
my adulthood having him in my life.
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So I suddenly was having those big
question moments with him and, and
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00:08:31,944 --> 00:08:36,625
the storytelling and the going back
along generations and asking about
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00:08:36,625 --> 00:08:41,075
my grandparents and asking about my
dad's childhood and the stuff that you
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00:08:41,085 --> 00:08:42,974

think you've got time to talk about.
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00:08:43,405 --> 00:08:45,955
We got the opportunity to
talk about those things.
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So that was, that was nice and it
was good to be able to take that
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time even though it was really
difficult to see him decline.
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And we didn't, we didn't
have any legislation in place
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in Victoria at that stage.
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00:09:02,595 --> 00:09:04,535
around the right to die with dignity.
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So, uh, there were a lot of hard
choices that we had to make and
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00:09:09,185 --> 00:09:11,625
it was hard to watch him decline.
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00:09:12,095 --> 00:09:15,105
He was 50, so he was still a young man.
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00:09:15,165 --> 00:09:20,734
I now know, when I was 18 or 17,
I, I thought 50 was, was old.
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And now I'm like, I'm almost 50.
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00:09:23,415 --> 00:09:27,025

My brothers are older than my
dad was when he passed away and I
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00:09:27,025 --> 00:09:28,665
feel like we're all young people.
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So he was so young and it was
so important to spend that time.
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00:09:33,889 --> 00:09:38,800
When my mum passed away, there were
so many things that were unsaid.
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00:09:39,599 --> 00:09:47,225
Um, things that, you know, in my mid
twenties As a young person, I was busy
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00:09:47,225 --> 00:09:53,705
being selfish, like, you know, any normal
mid 20 year old, I was, uh, running around
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with my mates and going out partying and,
you know, every now and then I'd remember
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00:09:57,585 --> 00:10:01,475
to call mum back and, you know, she'd be
following up on me and she'd be trying to
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00:10:01,475 --> 00:10:05,275
give me advice and I'd be like, oh, mum,
stop hassling me and, and then suddenly
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00:10:05,275 --> 00:10:10,795
she was gone and there was this gaping
hole in my life because she, the kind of
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00:10:10,795 --> 00:10:17,325
relationship that we had, she was, she
was a mentor and a teacher and, Uh, and
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00:10:17,485 --> 00:10:24,735

she was a gift to me, and I didn't have
that anymore, but I also hadn't been able
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00:10:24,735 --> 00:10:26,775
to prepare myself for the loss of it.
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I thought she was going to be there
forever, and at the age of 59 she was
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00:10:32,364 --> 00:10:37,475
gone, and I was at sea as a young person.
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00:10:37,965 --> 00:10:40,925
But I also had a lot of
responsibility because my mum had
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00:10:40,925 --> 00:10:43,045
asked me to be her, her executor.
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00:10:43,725 --> 00:10:44,454
Of her will.
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And so that was, again, another time in
my life where I had to grow up really
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00:10:49,604 --> 00:10:54,994
super quickly, uh, and I had to make
really, really grown up decisions,
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00:10:55,604 --> 00:10:57,684
and I had to grieve at the same time.
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00:10:57,694 --> 00:11:02,374
I had to be a daughter, and I had to
be in this state of grief, but I also
161
00:11:02,394 --> 00:11:09,150
had to carry What is a privilege and an
honor, but also a burden, which is to,
162

00:11:10,739 --> 00:11:18,040
to follow the wishes of an individual
and, and administer the things that they
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00:11:18,209 --> 00:11:22,630
have said they wanted administered in the
event that they were no longer around.
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00:11:22,639 --> 00:11:22,889
So.
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00:11:23,075 --> 00:11:29,915
They were different journeys and different
life events and, uh, they had their own
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00:11:30,335 --> 00:11:35,745
beauty and they also had their own pain.
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00:11:37,044 --> 00:11:37,474
Catherine Ashton: Yeah.
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00:11:39,294 --> 00:11:41,805
In relation to your parents.
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00:11:42,210 --> 00:11:46,380
Dying in the, the lead up on when
you were growing up, was there
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any conversations about death?
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00:11:48,510 --> 00:11:52,980
You, you mentioned that you had
to administer your, um, mother's,
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00:11:53,070 --> 00:11:55,290
um, her will, I'm assuming.
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00:11:55,710 --> 00:11:58,650
Um, so she had a will in place.
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Uh, and did your father have
a will in place as well?
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00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:03,670
Libby Neesham: Yeah.
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00:12:03,670 --> 00:12:09,670
Look, I, uh, I think my dad did . I
just assumed so, I mean, it was,
177
00:12:09,700 --> 00:12:12,490
it was so much more straightforward
when dad passed away in that.
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00:12:13,070 --> 00:12:20,040
He had had time to think about his dying,
and he'd also sort of looked at it, he'd
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00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:25,379
looked at the practical matters, so little
fiddly things like, uh, you know, joint
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00:12:25,379 --> 00:12:29,559
bank accounts and mortgages and all of
that stuff, before he died, he just got
181
00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,779
mum to trans, he just signed everything
over and transferred everything into
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00:12:32,829 --> 00:12:34,789
my mother's name, so that it wasn't.
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00:12:35,619 --> 00:12:40,700
Really tricky when he died, so he was
very pragmatic about it, and he was a,
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00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:45,489
you know, he was a practical kind of
bloke, uh, and it was simple because it
185
00:12:45,490 --> 00:12:50,959
was always just assumed that everything

to do with my father just settled with my
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00:12:50,959 --> 00:12:53,029
mother, and that was very straightforward.
187
00:12:54,499 --> 00:13:01,510
The only thing that got complicated
was a couple of very private.
188
00:13:02,235 --> 00:13:08,935
And sensitive items that my father had
that had belonged to my grandfather.
189
00:13:09,395 --> 00:13:13,765
And that was an issue that landed with my
mom and was, and was very, very painful
190
00:13:13,775 --> 00:13:19,784
for her in terms of the dynamics of my
father's family and the way that they
191
00:13:19,845 --> 00:13:22,865
treated her in, in the circumstances.
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00:13:23,675 --> 00:13:31,725
But when it came to when my mom died, she,
she'd really thought it through because.
193
00:13:32,584 --> 00:13:38,560
When my dad died, she
Got a big reality check.
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00:13:38,699 --> 00:13:45,089
So she did all of the paperwork and made
sure that everything was in place and
195
00:13:45,129 --> 00:13:51,639
she'd been very very specific in her will
about the distribution of Sentimental
196
00:13:51,680 --> 00:13:56,939
items to her and she had lots of
conversations with us and I think that was

197
00:13:56,940 --> 00:14:05,740
because of The loss of my dad and knowing
that if she were not with us, that we
198
00:14:05,740 --> 00:14:07,479
would actually have to do all this stuff.
199
00:14:07,479 --> 00:14:11,240
So she, she was super specific and
had lots of conversations, but we
200
00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,910
also had these weird conversations
like, cause like we grew up Catholic.
201
00:14:17,155 --> 00:14:22,715
And, and my mum grew up in a really,
really conservative household.
202
00:14:23,255 --> 00:14:28,624
And so, we had these weird, I remember,
like, sitting on the farm with my mum,
203
00:14:28,655 --> 00:14:30,845
and she was trying to write her will.
204
00:14:30,914 --> 00:14:34,494
And I was looking over her shoulder,
and, and I'm the, I'm the youngest,
205
00:14:34,494 --> 00:14:37,755
you've got to understand that I'm the
youngest in my family, and I'm a girl.
206
00:14:38,585 --> 00:14:41,695
And I have an older brother who's
the eldest in our family, and
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00:14:41,695 --> 00:14:45,930
she had appointed both of us as
executors, so that then, You know,

208
00:14:45,930 --> 00:14:48,250
there was, uh, there was a plan B.
209
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,910
So if one person was busy or somewhere
else or whatever, then the other
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00:14:52,910 --> 00:14:56,319
person could kind of kick in and
they had authority to make decisions.
211
00:14:56,770 --> 00:15:00,380
And, and mum did this hilarious thing.
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00:15:00,380 --> 00:15:03,689
I mean, I say it's hilarious, but it
was actually terrifying at the time.
213
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And, and also just like my brain wanted
to explode because I was raised in
214
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a conservative family, but somehow
my heart and soul was a feminist.
215
00:15:14,074 --> 00:15:17,525
You know, like I came out of the womb
going, I'm a fully formed human being.
216
00:15:17,545 --> 00:15:21,495
And just because I'm a girl doesn't
mean I'm any less of a person.
217
00:15:21,855 --> 00:15:23,215
And nobody gave that to me.
218
00:15:23,215 --> 00:15:25,084
I did, it was just built into me.
219
00:15:25,464 --> 00:15:29,994
And my mum came from this really

super conservative upbringing.
220
00:15:30,424 --> 00:15:32,565
And she was writing a will.
221
00:15:32,615 --> 00:15:37,555
And she, she made this decision
that everything in the family.
222
00:15:38,055 --> 00:15:44,525
All the financial, any financial benefit,
all of the, the objects, all of the
223
00:15:44,585 --> 00:15:48,444
heirlooms, everything went to my eldest
brother because he was the eldest boy.
224
00:15:48,965 --> 00:15:52,475
And I felt like I'd gone
back into a Dickensian novel.
225
00:15:53,044 --> 00:15:55,185
I was, I was stuck in Jane Austen.
226
00:15:55,685 --> 00:15:58,745
And I just looked at my mum and I
went, you've got to be kidding me,
227
00:15:59,444 --> 00:16:01,975
like, where is this coming from?
228
00:16:02,205 --> 00:16:04,795
I'm not going to be a spinster.
229
00:16:05,244 --> 00:16:10,525
Who receives a stipend from my
eldest brother, like we're not
230
00:16:10,584 --> 00:16:14,844
living in Victorian times anymore.
231
00:16:14,864 --> 00:16:18,104

And she was really quite surprised
that I had that conversation.
232
00:16:18,104 --> 00:16:21,545
I just went, dude, no,
like you've got four kids.
233
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,040
Just split it four ways.
234
00:16:25,090 --> 00:16:30,379
And she was surprised and, and I was just
like, I, I really did, like, I sat back
235
00:16:30,389 --> 00:16:33,730
and I just thought, I can't believe I just
had to have that conversation with you.
236
00:16:34,370 --> 00:16:37,760
Because mum was really proud of the
things that her daughters were doing,
237
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,619
like, she was like, you know, you've
got all this opportunity and you've got
238
00:16:40,619 --> 00:16:44,714
all of these advantages and you can go
and you can, Do whatever you want to do
239
00:16:44,714 --> 00:16:46,805
and you can be whoever you want to be.
240
00:16:46,805 --> 00:16:50,875
And so this was the narrative I was
hearing as a young woman and then
241
00:16:50,875 --> 00:16:54,744
to have her sit down and go, but all
everything goes to your eldest brother.
242
00:16:54,815 --> 00:16:59,924
I was like, or nah, we're not doing that.

243
00:16:59,935 --> 00:17:04,195
So I mean it was, it was, it was
a super important conversation to
244
00:17:04,195 --> 00:17:08,875
have and we had to take hours at it.
245
00:17:08,885 --> 00:17:11,775
Like we had to talk about
like, why is it that.
246
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:21,100
That we've moved past Dickens and, and
we're going to be equitable about this and
247
00:17:21,100 --> 00:17:29,079
that, and that those traditions that she
held, she didn't have to do it that way.
248
00:17:29,620 --> 00:17:32,139
She could make up her own
mind what she felt was fair.
249
00:17:32,630 --> 00:17:35,620
And didn't have to worry about
what had been done in the past.
250
00:17:35,630 --> 00:17:39,820
So, those were, like, that were
really critical conversations.
251
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:48,389
And her experience of, of, of end of
life and, and death within her own family
252
00:17:48,389 --> 00:17:54,960
had, had a number of occasions for her
where there'd been huge family rifts
253
00:17:55,340 --> 00:18:02,525
occur and, you know, fighting it out
over, wills and, and, and possessions.

254
00:18:02,975 --> 00:18:07,465
So that was why she was really specific
about who she wanted to have, what,
255
00:18:07,495 --> 00:18:09,955
like, you know, she didn't go around
the house and put stickers with people's
256
00:18:09,955 --> 00:18:15,714
names on it, but she did say things
like, I want my wedding ring to go
257
00:18:15,714 --> 00:18:21,699
to this person, or I want the, you
know, we had this amazing cabinetry.
258
00:18:21,980 --> 00:18:27,920
That everyone in the family loved and now
is probably, uh, you know, worth a fortune
259
00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,540
in, in a Scandwegian antique store.
260
00:18:30,980 --> 00:18:34,450
And so, you know, she made decisions
about, well, the cabinetry is going to
261
00:18:34,450 --> 00:18:38,580
go to this person and, Oh, what was it?
262
00:18:38,590 --> 00:18:39,639
Her school badge.
263
00:18:39,700 --> 00:18:40,630
That was funny.
264
00:18:40,909 --> 00:18:45,000
It was something that I didn't even
think about, but she went to CLC
265
00:18:45,070 --> 00:18:48,830

and she had a school badge from when
she was at CLC and she wanted that
266
00:18:48,830 --> 00:18:52,730
to go to her first granddaughter.
267
00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:57,039
So she was really specific about
those little sentimental items.
268
00:18:57,490 --> 00:18:58,540
Catherine Ashton: CLC?
269
00:18:58,620 --> 00:19:00,170
Libby Neesham: Uh, Catholic Ladies College.
270
00:19:00,330 --> 00:19:02,379
Don't even, I don't
think it exists anymore.
271
00:19:02,839 --> 00:19:02,929
Yeah.
272
00:19:03,129 --> 00:19:07,099
But you know, it was back in the, back
in the 60s when the Catholic girls
273
00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:10,270
would go off to school on the tram and
they'd have to wear their blazers and
274
00:19:10,270 --> 00:19:11,949
their straw hats and their white gloves.
275
00:19:12,659 --> 00:19:15,720
And, uh, and you know, it was
something, something to be said
276
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that you graduated from CLC.
277
00:19:17,770 --> 00:19:18,070

Yeah.
278
00:19:18,810 --> 00:19:19,010
Oh,
279
00:19:19,010 --> 00:19:19,750
Catherine Ashton: that's great.
280
00:19:20,210 --> 00:19:24,950
Now, obviously the experiences of the
death of your father and then the death
281
00:19:24,969 --> 00:19:27,140
of your mother were quite different.
282
00:19:28,490 --> 00:19:33,229
Did you have any support network or was
there any support that was offered to you?
283
00:19:33,650 --> 00:19:36,370
During the, the times that you, you lost
both parents?
284
00:19:36,860 --> 00:19:37,670
Libby Neesham:
285
00:19:37,860 --> 00:19:40,600
Yeah, okay, so, oh,
this will be a fun one.
286
00:19:40,670 --> 00:19:42,670
This is something I
really want to talk about.
287
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:47,769
This is, and, and especially because I
was young when my parents passed, which
288
00:19:48,810 --> 00:19:53,815
is not necessarily a deciding factor,
but I think it is something that That's a
289

00:19:53,815 --> 00:20:00,275
consideration is the maturity and the age
of a person when they, when they lose a
290
00:20:00,275 --> 00:20:05,194
parent and not just a parent, but anyone
who is a really essential person, a part
291
00:20:05,194 --> 00:20:07,214
of their network that they're close to.
292
00:20:07,234 --> 00:20:15,225
And that is what people do around
a grieving individual things I
293
00:20:15,245 --> 00:20:19,265
noticed and that I think about now.
294
00:20:19,830 --> 00:20:27,020
That were unnecessarily hard, for example,
uh, you know, people came back into our
295
00:20:27,020 --> 00:20:33,200
lives when my dad was unwell, that we
had had very little contact with, uh,
296
00:20:33,210 --> 00:20:40,870
throughout my entire childhood and growing
up, and it might sound a little harsh.
297
00:20:41,310 --> 00:20:46,219
To, to put it this way, but they
were not part of my growing up for a
298
00:20:46,219 --> 00:20:50,630
reason, and they didn't actually help.
299
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:57,800
They were really unhelpful, and could
have done without it in retrospect.
300
00:20:58,279 --> 00:21:02,800
Uh, and I think when you do go

through a period of grieving, it's
301
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:09,880
very hard to tell who is Supporting
you and who is actually holding you
302
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,880
back or even just not supporting you.
303
00:21:13,950 --> 00:21:18,299
Uh, so, you know, there were, there
were people, there were people
304
00:21:18,299 --> 00:21:25,300
around me and my mother when my
dad died, who were just, you know,
305
00:21:25,370 --> 00:21:27,379
they, they, they were just curious.
306
00:21:27,379 --> 00:21:29,850
It's a, it's a little bit
like, you know, people have a.
307
00:21:30,245 --> 00:21:34,814
a morbid fascination with death almost.
308
00:21:35,145 --> 00:21:44,824
So being, being a little bit conscious
of the people around you and what their
309
00:21:44,824 --> 00:21:52,889
motivations might be is, is something
that I would say, but also When my mum
310
00:21:53,110 --> 00:21:57,719
died, and, and this may be a little
bit because she died very suddenly,
311
00:21:57,719 --> 00:21:59,749
and none of us were prepared for it.
312

00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,490
And I didn't have people around me
at that stage, and I didn't have
313
00:22:04,490 --> 00:22:08,790
a support network, so I was busy
trying to take care of everyone else.
314
00:22:09,345 --> 00:22:14,665
And try and be responsible and I
wasn't looking after myself and
315
00:22:14,995 --> 00:22:21,995
unfortunately, there were a number of
people, uh, within sort of my sphere
316
00:22:21,995 --> 00:22:27,884
of influence, so within the family,
mostly, whom were particularly unhelpful.
317
00:22:28,434 --> 00:22:32,365
So, the big thing that I would say is.
318
00:22:35,235 --> 00:22:43,235
Grieving is hard, and even if you
feel like you're okay, make sure that
319
00:22:43,245 --> 00:22:49,814
you've got something, that you've got
someone looking out for you, even if
320
00:22:49,815 --> 00:22:57,085
you're feeling strong and resilient and
like you've got it all under control.
321
00:22:57,884 --> 00:23:02,735
One day, you actually might need that
support and you might need that network.
322
00:23:02,764 --> 00:23:11,625
So, for me, it was around very slowly
coming to the realization that I
323

00:23:11,625 --> 00:23:18,449
needed to exit some people from my life
and, and do that very, very firmly.
324
00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:22,699
And not have them impacting on
me because they were harming me.
325
00:23:23,310 --> 00:23:30,189
And also being able to ask for
help, whether that's through medical
326
00:23:30,190 --> 00:23:33,719
professionals, whether that is through
mental health professionals, whether
327
00:23:33,719 --> 00:23:35,739
that's through peer support groups.
328
00:23:37,569 --> 00:23:40,629
The power of the internet is
an amazing thing these days.
329
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:46,750
Uh, listening to a podcast is also
excellent and just trusting your instinct.
330
00:23:46,889 --> 00:23:50,900
You know, one of the things that I
didn't do was I didn't trust my instinct.
331
00:23:51,275 --> 00:23:54,745
There were a whole pile of things
that happened where I went, Oh, no,
332
00:23:54,745 --> 00:24:00,075
I have to, I have to be kind and
nice and understanding and I need
333
00:24:00,075 --> 00:24:01,484
to make space for other people.
334
00:24:01,484 --> 00:24:05,004

And what I really needed to
do was hold space for myself.
335
00:24:05,945 --> 00:24:11,475
So that would be something I would say
really, really, it's incredibly important
336
00:24:11,524 --> 00:24:15,364
is to, to build in those supports.
337
00:24:15,364 --> 00:24:18,874
And even if you have to
do it quickly, do it.
338
00:24:19,594 --> 00:24:20,854
And if you don't need it, great.
339
00:24:20,934 --> 00:24:22,514
But if you do need it, it's.
340
00:24:23,355 --> 00:24:24,045
important.
341
00:24:25,825 --> 00:24:27,815
Catherine Ashton: And would you
say that that's one of the most
342
00:24:27,815 --> 00:24:32,774
significant challenges to actually
make sure you take the time to do that
343
00:24:32,774 --> 00:24:34,564
for yourself and just check in with
344
00:24:34,564 --> 00:24:35,044
yourself?
345
00:24:36,294 --> 00:24:36,874
Libby Neesham: 100%.
346
00:24:37,135 --> 00:24:37,755
Yes.

347
00:24:38,615 --> 00:24:39,475
It is.
348
00:24:39,495 --> 00:24:45,584
It was probably the hardest thing for
me to do, but it was so important.
349
00:24:45,645 --> 00:24:56,365
And in looking back over my
grieving, uh, you, I try and, I
350
00:24:56,365 --> 00:24:58,575
try and show compassion for myself.
351
00:24:59,420 --> 00:25:01,379
But I also go, Oh, God,
I don't believe it.
352
00:25:01,380 --> 00:25:04,450
I can't believe I did that
or, Oh, why didn't I say that?
353
00:25:04,450 --> 00:25:09,750
And like everything's super clear in
hindsight, but when you're right in
354
00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:15,359
the middle of it, it's really, really,
really hard to have perspective.
355
00:25:15,949 --> 00:25:22,290
So yeah, so making sure that
you've got tools and knowledge and.
356
00:25:24,230 --> 00:25:32,010
even, even just somebody who's
got eyes on you, who is going to
357
00:25:32,060 --> 00:25:35,429
back you and advocate for you when
you can't advocate for yourself.

358
00:25:36,149 --> 00:25:38,309
Yeah, that would be a thing for me.
359
00:25:39,659 --> 00:25:41,610
Catherine Ashton: And would you say that
360
00:25:42,990 --> 00:25:45,740
any particular
practical exercises that you were
361
00:25:45,740 --> 00:25:50,489
doing during that stage helped you
to carve out that time for yourself?
362
00:25:50,909 --> 00:25:55,219
Was it, you know, stepping away from
what was going on for a period of time?
363
00:25:55,219 --> 00:25:59,330
Or, or was it, you know, You
know, zoning out with some music,
364
00:25:59,350 --> 00:26:02,750
what was, what was the, the, the
tools that you used that you're
365
00:26:02,750 --> 00:26:04,449
referring
to during that period?
366
00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:07,939
Libby Neesham: Oh, I'm, I'm going to
be brutally honest here.
367
00:26:08,139 --> 00:26:11,719
I'm going to say it took me years.
368
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:14,070
It took me years to grieve.
369
00:26:14,770 --> 00:26:18,730
So there were, there was an

intense period of time where I
370
00:26:18,740 --> 00:26:20,560
didn't do any of those things.
371
00:26:21,075 --> 00:26:26,995
Catherine Ashton: And I, that was just Libby's dog, that was
my dog coming in, coming in to say hello.
372
00:26:26,995 --> 00:26:29,515
Libby Neesham: So he's just going to climb
up on the couch with me here.
373
00:26:30,175 --> 00:26:33,514
Yeah, look, I, uh, I
was in, I spiraled it.
374
00:26:33,544 --> 00:26:38,964
I spiraled, I really spiraled
after my mum died and I was really
375
00:26:38,964 --> 00:26:44,355
unwell and I knew I was unwell,
but I didn't know how unwell I was.
376
00:26:45,700 --> 00:26:50,910
I was trying to be brave and I was trying
to be and I had people around me saying
377
00:26:50,910 --> 00:26:52,860
to me, Oh, you just got to toughen up.
378
00:26:52,910 --> 00:26:54,470
Oh, you just got to get over it.
379
00:26:54,470 --> 00:26:57,480
You've just got to do this
and this isn't normal.
380
00:26:57,510 --> 00:27:03,079
And, uh, you know, stop feeling sorry
for yourself and all of those really

381
00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:05,099
negative, harmful messages that
382
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,270
aren't getting you anywhere.
383
00:27:10,370 --> 00:27:12,650
They're really not
getting anyone anywhere.
384
00:27:12,670 --> 00:27:17,540
Like, advice to being around people
who are grieving, never tell a grieving
385
00:27:17,540 --> 00:27:19,790
person just to get over it, please.
386
00:27:20,170 --> 00:27:21,919
That is, that's unhelpful.
387
00:27:22,470 --> 00:27:27,160
So it took me a long time because I didn't
have the support network and because I
388
00:27:27,169 --> 00:27:30,640
had some really wrong people around me.
389
00:27:31,610 --> 00:27:38,610
When I could, And there was a long
time where I couldn't, but when I
390
00:27:38,650 --> 00:27:41,210
could, what I did was I took, I did.
391
00:27:41,230 --> 00:27:43,150
I did those things that
you're talking about.
392
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:47,180
So today, my experience would
be completely different.

393
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,840
And I'm not done with losing people yet.
394
00:27:50,929 --> 00:27:53,200
Like, you know, I've got
uncles and aunts that.
395
00:27:53,725 --> 00:27:58,825
Uh, aging, you know, uh, I have
my own children, I have a partner,
396
00:27:58,865 --> 00:28:00,405
I have very close friends.
397
00:28:00,785 --> 00:28:04,745
So there will be new journeys
that I will need to take that
398
00:28:04,745 --> 00:28:05,924
will be grieving journeys.
399
00:28:05,935 --> 00:28:10,854
So what I know today and what I do today
is different from what I was able to do.
400
00:28:11,610 --> 00:28:17,020
Back then and the things that I'm
very conscious of now is having
401
00:28:17,020 --> 00:28:21,739
good conversations, but also
having your go to trusted circle of
402
00:28:21,740 --> 00:28:25,899
individuals and different people in
my life serve different purposes.
403
00:28:26,260 --> 00:28:32,269
So, but I, I know in my head who I would
go to if I needed to talk to them about.
404
00:28:33,084 --> 00:28:37,575

grieving, or if I needed to talk to
them about the fact that I'm not coping.
405
00:28:37,845 --> 00:28:42,965
So I've got my key people
who are safe people.
406
00:28:42,975 --> 00:28:46,054
It's like when you talk to your kids
about the, you know, the five fingers
407
00:28:46,054 --> 00:28:48,705
on your hand, you say, who are the
five trusted people you could go to?
408
00:28:49,304 --> 00:28:50,394
I've done that.
409
00:28:50,514 --> 00:28:56,075
I've got those people in my life that I
know on any given day of the week, they'll
410
00:28:56,085 --> 00:28:59,115
back me and they're going to hold me up.
411
00:28:59,145 --> 00:29:00,665
They're not going to pull me down.
412
00:29:01,155 --> 00:29:01,625
I do.
413
00:29:01,685 --> 00:29:03,425
I, I listen to.
414
00:29:03,884 --> 00:29:05,965
The best music all of the time.
415
00:29:06,334 --> 00:29:11,034
And, and I allow that
to influence my mood.
416
00:29:11,044 --> 00:29:14,485

So if I need to be calm,
then I will listen to calm.
417
00:29:15,130 --> 00:29:20,550
And if I need to get going, then I'm going
to be listening to get up and go music.
418
00:29:20,810 --> 00:29:23,940
Music's very much part
of how I care for myself.
419
00:29:24,420 --> 00:29:27,980
I get gentle exercise, I get
sunshine, I get enough sleep.
420
00:29:28,580 --> 00:29:32,669
When I, when I was grieving,
one of the things that had a
421
00:29:32,669 --> 00:29:34,909
huge impact on me was insomnia.
422
00:29:35,255 --> 00:29:40,165
It was that hyper stimulation of grief,
and the big emotions that come with
423
00:29:40,165 --> 00:29:47,425
it, and also just the, what I like
to, to, to call the, the mixtape,
424
00:29:47,825 --> 00:29:50,324
like, you know, the mixtape that
never turns itself off, it was all
425
00:29:50,325 --> 00:29:54,314
of the thoughts that just couldn't,
couldn't stop, and so I had terrible
426
00:29:54,314 --> 00:29:58,905
insomnia, so today I sleep, and I.
427
00:29:59,510 --> 00:30:07,490
take care of my body, give it good

healthy food and gentle exercise.
428
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:09,010
I have a dog.
429
00:30:09,109 --> 00:30:10,670
My dog is my soulmate.
430
00:30:11,450 --> 00:30:19,765
And if I need to be In a space where I
feel cared for, he undeniably adores me
431
00:30:19,765 --> 00:30:23,455
on any given day of the week, which is
lovely because the feeling is mutual.
432
00:30:23,924 --> 00:30:27,995
So just build, building in what is
meaningful for you and practices.
433
00:30:28,004 --> 00:30:33,064
So, uh, I have connection practices
and we were talking before we
434
00:30:33,064 --> 00:30:35,065
recorded this about my knitting.
435
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,990
And I taught myself to knit because
it was something that my mother
436
00:30:38,990 --> 00:30:43,600
did and it felt like a, a, a deep
connection and she hadn't been
437
00:30:43,630 --> 00:30:44,900
able to pass the skill on to me.
438
00:30:44,900 --> 00:30:50,469
So I, I had to teach myself via YouTube,
thank you, YouTube, and a lot of hours
439

00:30:50,469 --> 00:30:53,640
on the sticks and, you know, getting
it wrong before you get it right.
440
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:59,990
But I use that as a, uh, sort of a deep
spiritual connection to my mother, but
441
00:30:59,990 --> 00:31:08,470
also a moving meditation that allows
me to calm myself if I need soothing.
442
00:31:08,829 --> 00:31:13,220
So it's almost like when you talk about
kids having self soothing strategies.
443
00:31:13,965 --> 00:31:17,845
All of the advice that you would
give to a toddler is good advice
444
00:31:17,845 --> 00:31:21,274
for a grieving person as well.
445
00:31:21,275 --> 00:31:24,805
Because we're, you know, small
people are just mini human beings.
446
00:31:25,330 --> 00:31:30,260
And, and I'm a human being, and
sometimes I need to know how to soothe
447
00:31:30,290 --> 00:31:34,510
myself, and sometimes I need to go to
someone else who can do that for me.
448
00:31:36,070 --> 00:31:37,130
That's really lovely.
449
00:31:37,570 --> 00:31:40,320
Catherine Ashton: And you've
mentioned that you're now a mother.
450
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,600

You have two lovely boys, one in high
school and one in primary school still.
451
00:31:46,330 --> 00:31:52,380
How is being a mother, how do you,
how has that had an impact on, on your
452
00:31:52,410 --> 00:31:55,019
life in relation to, I suppose, you
453
00:31:55,020 --> 00:31:55,249
know.
454
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,090
Libby Neesham: Yeah, it's profound, isn't it?
455
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:05,130
It gives you a sense of your own mortality
and humanness to have dependence.
456
00:32:05,770 --> 00:32:12,650
So, uh, and, and also feeling a
responsibility to do things with
457
00:32:12,690 --> 00:32:18,230
kindness and, and, and dignity
to their benefit, I think.
458
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:23,200
And, and so the practical measures when
I, when I say, you know, doing things
459
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,170
with kindness and thinking about.
460
00:32:27,430 --> 00:32:34,390
If I die, dot, dot, dot, kind of thing,
so I haven't done it perfectly, in fact,
461
00:32:34,420 --> 00:32:43,969
probably far from, uh, but you know,
let your kids know you, um, as a person

462
00:32:44,030 --> 00:32:46,159
and really genuinely connect with you.
463
00:32:46,590 --> 00:32:49,900
And the, and the great parts of you,
like, we're all going to have bits of
464
00:32:49,900 --> 00:32:55,999
ourselves that we don't love, um, but,
but help them be engaged with the things
465
00:32:56,009 --> 00:33:05,860
that you love about yourself, uh, and give
them, uh, a sense of what they inherit
466
00:33:05,860 --> 00:33:10,360
from you, either, you know, through just
walking alongside you and growing up
467
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:15,840
with you, but also the genetic stuff,
and we're all neurodiverse in our family,
468
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,885
so, like, it's a kooky house from end to
end, We don't know about the dog, that's
469
00:33:19,885 --> 00:33:24,225
a maybe, but he's probably, he's probably
the most typical out of all of us.
470
00:33:25,455 --> 00:33:30,255
But being able to celebrate one another
and be realistic about the fact that we
471
00:33:30,255 --> 00:33:33,295
have a finite amount of time together.
472
00:33:33,754 --> 00:33:37,935
And I've always said with my kids that
I'm just holding the tiller until they
473

00:33:37,935 --> 00:33:40,209
can take, they can steer the boat.
474
00:33:40,830 --> 00:33:49,920
And so for me, it's about giving them the
tools to be their own individuals and to
475
00:33:49,930 --> 00:33:57,899
be fine without me, uh, knowing that when
they have me, they can always rely on me,
476
00:33:57,930 --> 00:34:00,260
they can come to me for anything at all.
477
00:34:00,935 --> 00:34:02,945
But if I'm not there,
they're gonna be okay.
478
00:34:05,905 --> 00:34:07,565
Catherine Ashton: And you've talked
479
00:34:07,565 --> 00:34:11,075
about traits that
you know, you, the kids have inherited.
480
00:34:11,195 --> 00:34:11,345
Mm-Hmm.
481
00:34:11,705 --> 00:34:16,745
. What is there, is there any family
traditions that, you know, your parents
482
00:34:16,750 --> 00:34:20,855
instilled in you that you've actually,
you know, having the, the children
483
00:34:20,860 --> 00:34:22,685
inducted into that family tradition?
484
00:34:22,685 --> 00:34:26,645
Or, or is there something that you as
a family have actually started as a

485
00:34:26,645 --> 00:34:28,535
new tradition that you're carrying on?
486
00:34:28,675 --> 00:34:29,875
Libby Neesham: I would like to see carried
487
00:34:29,875 --> 00:34:30,105
on.
488
00:34:30,215 --> 00:34:32,395
Oh yeah, we've got both and I love it.
489
00:34:32,425 --> 00:34:34,635
I love, I love our quirks.
490
00:34:35,295 --> 00:34:41,435
The, the, the big thing that I share with
my kids and I do try and connect them with
491
00:34:41,435 --> 00:34:45,964
their grandparents as much as I possibly
can because I think it gives it place,
492
00:34:45,985 --> 00:34:47,995
it helps us place ourselves in the world.
493
00:34:48,055 --> 00:34:49,935
And that's something I
learned about myself was.
494
00:34:50,465 --> 00:34:55,705
Knowing that I am my own individual,
but I am also made up of the parts
495
00:34:55,705 --> 00:34:58,085
of the people who've come before.
496
00:34:58,495 --> 00:35:04,265
So helping them have a sense of their,
who the people were that existed
497

00:35:04,825 --> 00:35:06,474
before they came into the world.
498
00:35:06,900 --> 00:35:11,460
And what they were like, so, for example,
my grandfather, who's their great
499
00:35:11,460 --> 00:35:16,479
grandfather, I tell them that he spoke 13
languages, and that he was a professional
500
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,750
interpreter, and then suddenly the
kids have this interest in language.
501
00:35:21,260 --> 00:35:25,849
So, you know, those, those connectors
and those stories across generations
502
00:35:25,849 --> 00:35:32,124
have been important, but this will sound
really basic, but mac and cheese, So
503
00:35:32,505 --> 00:35:38,265
there was a macaroni and cheese recipe
and we joked when I was, we still joke
504
00:35:38,285 --> 00:35:42,445
as siblings, but as we were growing up,
we always said that our parents had four
505
00:35:42,445 --> 00:35:49,895
children so that they had a workforce that
could produce, you know, the dinner and,
506
00:35:49,944 --> 00:35:51,584
and do the chores and bits and pieces.
507
00:35:51,584 --> 00:35:55,365
What I know is not true, but
we had a really, uh, really
508
00:35:55,365 --> 00:35:57,875

quite regimented upbringing.
509
00:35:57,945 --> 00:36:04,860
So We all had chores that we had to do,
and one of them, one of the rules in the
510
00:36:04,860 --> 00:36:09,439
house was that the person who cooked the
dinner didn't have to do the dishes, and
511
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,320
then my parents convinced all of us that
the dishes were the worst thing in the
512
00:36:13,330 --> 00:36:18,720
world to have to do, so we all learned to
cook, and the first thing that I really
513
00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:20,900
learned to cook was macaroni and cheese.
514
00:36:21,325 --> 00:36:26,015
Um, and it's made from scratch and it's
really basic and it's really yummy.
515
00:36:26,275 --> 00:36:30,015
And so it's the first thing that
I've taught my children to cook.
516
00:36:30,155 --> 00:36:31,774
And it's that shared meal.
517
00:36:31,814 --> 00:36:35,295
It's, and it's, it's almost
like the winter comfort food
518
00:36:35,495 --> 00:36:37,644
for the soul that we all share.
519
00:36:38,054 --> 00:36:40,815
So that, yeah, that's
a tradition that I'm.

520
00:36:41,110 --> 00:36:44,470
Passing to them that I know
that they will probably carry
521
00:36:44,470 --> 00:36:46,580
with them into their adulthood.
522
00:36:46,910 --> 00:36:51,390
They, they may end up with a, a morbid
fear of macaroni and cheese or something.
523
00:36:52,259 --> 00:36:55,310
Um, but also, you know, they
might, if they have children, then
524
00:36:55,310 --> 00:36:58,459
they might teach their children
to cook that particular recipe.
525
00:36:58,870 --> 00:37:01,390
So, food, because food
brings people together.
526
00:37:01,980 --> 00:37:05,200
And are there any other
traditions that we have, or?
527
00:37:05,930 --> 00:37:07,250
Things, things that are new.
528
00:37:07,290 --> 00:37:10,880
I mean, we have our own little
languages and language items.
529
00:37:11,470 --> 00:37:18,699
So when, when my eldest boy was just
starting to learn to speak, he would
530
00:37:18,699 --> 00:37:21,800
use these nonsense words as toddlers do.
531
00:37:22,420 --> 00:37:25,080

And then we would have to try
and interpret whatever it was
532
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:26,330
that he was trying to tell us.
533
00:37:26,710 --> 00:37:28,250
And some of them have stuck.
534
00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:31,140
So in our house, we drink
a lot of soda water.
535
00:37:31,610 --> 00:37:35,500
And when we refer to soda
water, we say fizzy pla.
536
00:37:36,045 --> 00:37:42,065
And it's because our eldest boy, when he
was a toddler, called water pla, which
537
00:37:42,065 --> 00:37:44,155
took a long time to work out, can I say?
538
00:37:44,505 --> 00:37:48,494
So we always just called water pla,
and then it seemed to make sense that
539
00:37:48,494 --> 00:37:52,655
if it was soda water and it was fizzy,
then it was going to be fizzy pla.
540
00:37:52,925 --> 00:37:56,315
So if you walk into our house and you
don't know our family and somebody says,
541
00:37:56,315 --> 00:37:58,115
mum, can I have a glass of fizzy pla?
542
00:37:58,355 --> 00:38:02,105
You'll have no idea what we're talking
about, but we all know what we're doing.

543
00:38:02,245 --> 00:38:03,815
And someone will get the soda water out.
544
00:38:04,685 --> 00:38:05,835
Catherine Ashton: Oh, that's so gorgeous.
545
00:38:06,045 --> 00:38:06,625
I love that.
546
00:38:06,645 --> 00:38:07,465
Fizzy pla.
547
00:38:07,885 --> 00:38:09,405
I'll never look at my SodaStream the
548
00:38:09,405 --> 00:38:10,265
same ever again.
549
00:38:10,275 --> 00:38:12,425
Libby Neesham: No, it's very hard once
you know, you know.
550
00:38:13,265 --> 00:38:13,605
Catherine Ashton: That's
551
00:38:13,605 --> 00:38:14,035
great.
552
00:38:14,755 --> 00:38:16,894
And based on your personal experience
553
00:38:16,894 --> 00:38:18,055
Libby, what would
554
00:38:18,095 --> 00:38:21,994
Catherine Ashton: be the, the, the
two or three things that you could
555
00:38:22,474 --> 00:38:25,974
suggest to people that do, that
find themselves in a situation when

556
00:38:25,975 --> 00:38:28,185
they have actually had a parent
557
00:38:28,425 --> 00:38:28,905
die?
558
00:38:31,130 --> 00:38:33,030
Libby Neesham: Oh, that's hard.
559
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,560
I'm just going to take a big deep breath.
560
00:38:39,710 --> 00:38:41,750
I think I would go back to trust yourself.
561
00:38:43,590 --> 00:38:44,250
Grieve.
562
00:38:47,190 --> 00:38:47,750
Time.
563
00:38:48,370 --> 00:38:49,150
Take time.
564
00:38:49,490 --> 00:38:51,300
Yeah, do the grieving.
565
00:38:51,980 --> 00:38:54,720
And do it without judging yourself.
566
00:38:55,249 --> 00:38:59,450
And if somebody else is judging
you, get them out of your way.
567
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:05,139
Uh, don't feel like there is
a perfect grieving process.
568
00:39:06,225 --> 00:39:11,575
Every circumstance, every

relationship, every event is unique.
569
00:39:12,155 --> 00:39:17,445
You will always be at a unique
stage in your own life on any
570
00:39:17,445 --> 00:39:19,495
given day if you lose someone.
571
00:39:20,725 --> 00:39:25,174
You will know more or less about
something that you might at a
572
00:39:25,174 --> 00:39:26,405
different time in your life.
573
00:39:26,964 --> 00:39:31,495
You are going to do the best you can with
what you have, so be kind to yourself.
574
00:39:32,345 --> 00:39:35,895
And allow yourself to grieve,
whatever that looks like.
575
00:39:37,185 --> 00:39:42,265
But if it looks like doing
yourself damage, then get help.
576
00:39:43,615 --> 00:39:52,275
Because if part of your grieving
process is to be self sabotaging or
577
00:39:52,275 --> 00:39:57,110
self harming, then that's a really
dangerous journey, uh, and it'll take
578
00:39:57,110 --> 00:40:00,910
longer, and it will be really painful.
579
00:40:01,590 --> 00:40:07,779
So, yeah, I would say, trust yourself,
trust your instinct, be kind to yourself,

580
00:40:08,370 --> 00:40:12,299
and if you are not coping, it is okay.
581
00:40:14,030 --> 00:40:14,740
Reach out.
582
00:40:15,220 --> 00:40:18,800
There will be someone, there
will be someone or something
583
00:40:18,860 --> 00:40:20,380
out there that is meant for you.
584
00:40:21,005 --> 00:40:24,825
to support you through that
grieving process, because it's tough
585
00:40:25,665 --> 00:40:27,945
and you don't have to be brave.
586
00:40:28,945 --> 00:40:36,175
You can be entirely not brave and it
is totally okay to be in that space.
587
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,520
That's what I would say, yeah.
588
00:40:40,730 --> 00:40:41,120
Catherine Ashton: So
589
00:40:41,170 --> 00:40:44,880
Libby, based on
your experience, if someone is wanting
590
00:40:44,910 --> 00:40:51,430
to support someone who has lost a
parent or a sibling or anyone close
591
00:40:51,430 --> 00:40:57,500
to them, and aren't quite sure how
to offer support, do you have any

592
00:40:57,500 --> 00:40:58,410
suggestions?
593
00:40:59,325 --> 00:41:07,725
Libby Neesham: Yeah, I do, because I had a really rough
journey when my mum passed away, and I
594
00:41:07,725 --> 00:41:13,544
could have done with more support, and
the, one of the things that I learned
595
00:41:13,564 --> 00:41:23,595
going through that journey was that if
you are around a grieving person and they
596
00:41:23,645 --> 00:41:29,875
are doing everything that they possibly
can to look like things are normal.
597
00:41:30,845 --> 00:41:37,335
But they're not normal, it's a really
good idea just to, just to check in,
598
00:41:37,975 --> 00:41:46,655
but not just check in like, hey, how are
you going, but to check in on what you
599
00:41:46,665 --> 00:41:52,584
know about that person already and what
is their normal behaviour and what they
600
00:41:52,595 --> 00:41:55,675
might be throughout that grieving process.
601
00:41:55,675 --> 00:41:58,805
So, and I'll be a little bit
more specific so that I can
602
00:41:58,815 --> 00:42:00,435
sort of join the dots with that.
603
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,750

And say that, say, for example, when I,
when I went through that really traumatic
604
00:42:05,810 --> 00:42:11,720
grieving period, you know, I was in a
period of self sabotage, so my normal
605
00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:15,230
behavior would have been to, you know,
wake up in the morning, go to work, do
606
00:42:15,230 --> 00:42:19,349
the thing, earn the money, you know, have
a good time, make good friends, all of
607
00:42:19,350 --> 00:42:21,599
those things, but my behavior changed.
608
00:42:22,045 --> 00:42:26,945
And so if you had asked
me, Oh, how are you going?
609
00:42:27,025 --> 00:42:27,855
You know, how are you?
610
00:42:28,135 --> 00:42:28,985
Are you okay?
611
00:42:28,985 --> 00:42:30,595
You know, your mum's not here anymore.
612
00:42:30,595 --> 00:42:32,885
How are you coping with everything?
613
00:42:33,675 --> 00:42:38,565
My response to that sort of question
would have been, Yeah, yeah, no, I'm fine.
614
00:42:38,565 --> 00:42:40,464
Like, I'm, I'm doing okay.
615
00:42:40,464 --> 00:42:42,004

I've, I've got things.
616
00:42:42,610 --> 00:42:45,600
But my behavior said something
completely different.
617
00:42:46,140 --> 00:42:49,460
So I was socially withdrawn.
618
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:57,190
I did not want to talk to people where
I normally would have been a very,
619
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,899
very busy person in terms of social
engagements and those sorts of things.
620
00:43:02,250 --> 00:43:05,180
And I slowly made my
world much, much smaller.
621
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:12,069
And the reason I think I did that
was because everything felt so out
622
00:43:12,070 --> 00:43:16,420
of control for me that the only
way that I could feel the sense of
623
00:43:16,439 --> 00:43:18,900
control was to make my world smaller.
624
00:43:19,479 --> 00:43:27,840
But it got smaller and smaller and
smaller and smaller until it was so tiny.
625
00:43:28,330 --> 00:43:34,350
That I didn't have the things that I
needed to make sure that I was okay.
626
00:43:34,900 --> 00:43:40,870
So I suppose if you, if you're
seeing behavior that contradicts

627
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:45,460
what someone's saying to you, then
there's probably something going
628
00:43:45,460 --> 00:43:49,710
on that, uh, needs, needs support.
629
00:43:50,220 --> 00:43:53,250
And there are lots of ways
to put in place that support.
630
00:43:53,250 --> 00:43:57,580
Like you don't have to sort of go in
gung ho and say, Oh, you need this and
631
00:43:57,580 --> 00:43:59,050
you need that and you have to do this.
632
00:43:59,605 --> 00:44:03,835
Um, but it's the asking and sometimes
it's the slow conversations.
633
00:44:03,865 --> 00:44:07,125
It's the asking, what is it that you need?
634
00:44:07,215 --> 00:44:10,605
And then giving somebody time to,
to actually not know what they
635
00:44:10,605 --> 00:44:16,354
need until they can express it in
a way that makes sense for you.
636
00:44:16,794 --> 00:44:19,899
So for me, if someone had
sat down with me and said.
637
00:44:21,070 --> 00:44:22,990
Is there anything that I can do?
638
00:44:23,050 --> 00:44:24,710

What is it that you need?
639
00:44:24,910 --> 00:44:28,230
I would have, I wouldn't have had
an answer for them straight away,
640
00:44:28,730 --> 00:44:35,669
but ultimately what I needed was
I just needed, um, I needed to
641
00:44:35,669 --> 00:44:38,910
know that I was going to be okay.
642
00:44:39,509 --> 00:44:45,030
And I needed someone to tell me
that, but not insist that I already
643
00:44:45,030 --> 00:44:46,970
was okay, or I should be okay.
644
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:53,770
Uh, I needed someone to say, do
this how you need to do it, but
645
00:44:53,870 --> 00:44:56,960
also please look after yourself.
646
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,810
And if you can't, please let me
look after you just for that little
647
00:45:00,810 --> 00:45:02,419
while, while you can't do it.
648
00:45:03,060 --> 00:45:04,380
That would have been helpful.
649
00:45:06,589 --> 00:45:12,090
Catherine Ashton: So I suppose if someone
is noticing someone withdrawing from
650
00:45:12,100 --> 00:45:18,090

social commitments, from their usual way
in which they would behave as you were
651
00:45:18,090 --> 00:45:25,555
describing, uh, perhaps Is it correct in
saying that instead of just asking the,
652
00:45:25,655 --> 00:45:30,315
are you okay, and asking it the once
and going, yep, tick, I've asked them,
653
00:45:30,315 --> 00:45:32,115
they've said they're fine, that's fine.
654
00:45:32,734 --> 00:45:37,134
Is that asking a more of
a series of questions and
655
00:45:37,134 --> 00:45:39,035
allowing time for the answers?
656
00:45:39,765 --> 00:45:40,685
To come forward.
657
00:45:41,005 --> 00:45:42,345
Libby Neesham: Yeah, I think it is.
658
00:45:42,365 --> 00:45:46,745
And the mental health professionals
work in this space a lot and I'm not
659
00:45:46,775 --> 00:45:51,285
a mental health professional, but I've
had some experience as lived experience.
660
00:45:51,515 --> 00:45:52,704
And what I would say is.
661
00:45:54,205 --> 00:45:59,405
The answer today can be different
from the answer tomorrow or, or a week
662

00:45:59,405 --> 00:46:05,024
later, and that when someone's in a
process of grieving, it, it takes time.
663
00:46:05,655 --> 00:46:12,864
And so if you've checked in once,
that's not enough, especially if
664
00:46:12,865 --> 00:46:17,495
it's someone who's important to you
or whom you think may be vulnerable.
665
00:46:18,145 --> 00:46:23,495
Then it's remembering to maybe
put a little thing in your phone
666
00:46:23,515 --> 00:46:28,325
to pop up to say, Hey, send
them a text message once a week.
667
00:46:28,755 --> 00:46:34,324
Or give them a quick five minute
call, you know, and ask the
668
00:46:34,325 --> 00:46:36,585
question, How are you feeling?
669
00:46:37,250 --> 00:46:39,400
Is there anything going on for you?
670
00:46:39,970 --> 00:46:41,390
Is there anything I can do?
671
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:50,450
And, and doing it over a duration of
time, because if you, I think you're
672
00:46:50,450 --> 00:46:54,470
probably in my, you know, when, when
I was, when I was going through this,
673
00:46:54,770 --> 00:46:56,360
someone could have worn me down.

674
00:46:56,479 --> 00:46:59,620
They could have worn down
my, my false bravery.
675
00:46:59,620 --> 00:47:07,010
So, you know, I was trying to be
really, uh, just, you know, pretending,
676
00:47:07,410 --> 00:47:12,915
putting, putting on that, that the mask
of normality, If you had asked me in
677
00:47:12,975 --> 00:47:17,905
enough times, I probably would have
been worn down to no, I'm not okay.
678
00:47:19,734 --> 00:47:26,165
So, it is a matter of, uh, yeah,
making a commitment to someone.
679
00:47:26,265 --> 00:47:32,024
If you, if you know it's important, if you
recognize that, uh, it might be needed.
680
00:47:32,610 --> 00:47:35,790
Then making that sort of, and you
don't have to say it to them, you
681
00:47:35,790 --> 00:47:38,460
don't have to say I'm making a
commitment that I'm going to call
682
00:47:38,460 --> 00:47:40,330
you once a week for the next forever.
683
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,890
It's like you just make that little
mental note to say, I'm going to check
684
00:47:44,890 --> 00:47:47,150
in and I'm going to check in regularly.

685
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,500
And if you're worried, and anyone
out there who's done mental health
686
00:47:51,509 --> 00:47:53,059
first aid before would know this.
687
00:47:53,465 --> 00:47:56,445
If you're genuinely worried,
then go through those really
688
00:47:56,445 --> 00:47:58,215
important checks, checklists.
689
00:47:58,295 --> 00:48:03,015
If you think that someone is
high, potentially at risk,
690
00:48:03,565 --> 00:48:06,095
don't ask them, are you okay?
691
00:48:06,154 --> 00:48:08,855
Ask them, are you okay?
692
00:48:10,125 --> 00:48:13,075
Do you feel like you are safe?
693
00:48:14,294 --> 00:48:18,695
Do you feel like you
might do something unsafe?
694
00:48:18,735 --> 00:48:21,335
Like you've got to go to the
tough questions, like that's the
695
00:48:21,335 --> 00:48:25,905
next level when something looks
like it is not operating well?
696
00:48:27,675 --> 00:48:29,765
Be really direct.

697
00:48:31,405 --> 00:48:35,585
Catherine Ashton: Libby, I can't thank you
enough for being a guest on the podcast.
698
00:48:36,075 --> 00:48:37,385
Libby Neesham: It's been an absolute pleasure.
699
00:48:37,455 --> 00:48:37,925
Thank you so
700
00:48:37,925 --> 00:48:38,325
Libby Neesham: much.
701
00:48:38,425 --> 00:48:39,525
No worries, Catherine.
702
00:48:39,555 --> 00:48:43,824
And, and as I said before, it is a
privilege to have the conversation and
703
00:48:44,465 --> 00:48:46,864
I think we can't talk about this enough.
704
00:48:47,315 --> 00:48:47,435
So.
705
00:48:48,330 --> 00:48:53,960
I'm really, I want to say, be
proud of yourself for having the
706
00:48:53,960 --> 00:49:02,690
initiative because I had had access
to something like this in the past.
707
00:49:02,830 --> 00:49:08,120
It would have been a really powerful,
uh, support for me, I think.
708
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:12,030
So I'm grateful that you're doing
it and I am grateful for the

709
00:49:12,030 --> 00:49:14,335
opportunity to share my story as well,
710
00:49:14,335 --> 00:49:15,895
Catherine Ashton: thank you
very much for sharing, Libby.
711
00:49:17,995 --> 00:49:21,415
We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,
712
00:49:21,715 --> 00:49:23,485
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00:49:24,225 --> 00:49:28,485
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714
00:49:28,485 --> 00:49:30,315
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00:49:42,310 --> 00:49:43,690
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