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Catherine Ashton: At what point
did you convert to Buddhism

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and what attracted you to that?

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Annie Whitlocke: Years ago, probably 45
years ago now, when I actually decided

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that this was the pathway that intrigued.

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I read this book, it was
called, it was by Ram Dass, it

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was called Grist for the Mill.

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And it was in the 70s, and I read it,
and it was like reading, Something

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that I would not have written, but
I understood what they were saying.

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And I could see the logic in it.

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And I could also see the difficulty ahead
of me if I was going to follow this path.

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And I do have a challenge, I will admit.

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And so I, I started
reading about Buddhism.

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Reading and reading and going to
teachings and going to courses.

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One of my biggest teachings was
that I learned that death is one

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of Buddhism's greatest teachers.

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Because death is about impermanence
and it's about accepting that we

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are not creatures that we will die.

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Every sentient being,
every living creature.

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will die.

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And in Buddhism, it goes further.

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So the mountains will wear down, the
rivers will run dry, the sky will change,

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the trees will grow and they will die.

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Everything changes and
nothing is permanent.

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So this was a fascinating concept
to me, and I delved into it.

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As I delved into it, I became more and
more intrigued by the aspect of death, and

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the dying and the death, and in Buddhism,
in particular, the The Vajrayana, they

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have these beautiful death meditations.

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So I started doing that.

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Catherine Ashton: Welcome to
Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast

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encouraging open conversations about
dying and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Katherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death back to life.

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Because while you may not be ready to die.

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At least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations

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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.

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We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging, and extend

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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Today's guest is Annie Whitlock.

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In a previous life, Annie was
Managing Director, Owner, Designer

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and Buyer for an import export
business called Angian Australia.

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For 17 years she had that business
until she sold it in 2010 to

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focus on her main interests.

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The most important interest was
as carer to her aging mother.

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Annie was able to be there for her
while her mind, lifestyle, attitude, and

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memories changed through Alzheimer's.

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Annie's mum died in September 2015.

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It was a peaceful and pain free death.

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Annie is a team leader for Social Health
Australia, a spiritual pastoral carer,

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Lay Buddhist chaplain, trainer and
supervisor of Buddhist spiritual carers

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at Monash Medical Center, meditation
instructor at Moorabbin Oncology, death

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cafe facilitator since 2013 and has
spoken on the Buddhist patient at Stirling

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College and Monash Palliative Care.

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And he has completed death doula
training with Denise Love and death

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walker training with Zenith Virago.

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She is also trained with
Christine Longacre and Dr.

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Michael Bardo and more precious teachers.

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She believes she will never stop learning.

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This is a very interesting
conversation that we have today.

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We cover just about everything and
you'll actually hear quite a bit from our

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animals that we're part of the recording.

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You'll hear my cat banded in
the background and her dogs in

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the background of her interview.

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I hope you enjoy getting to know Annie.

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Annie, thank you so much
for joining us today.

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Annie Whitlocke: It's great to be here.

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Thank you for asking me, Catherine.

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Catherine Ashton: Now, Annie,
you're no stranger to death and

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your experience obviously in your
profession has been wide and varied,

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but you have quite the personal
story from what I understand as well.

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Would you feel comfortable sharing
a little bit of that story with us?

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Oh, of course.

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Annie Whitlocke: So when you say personal
story, uh, a bit about my, my background

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and leading up to where I am now.

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Catherine Ashton: Yeah.

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And then we can talk about your
professional roles as well.

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Annie Whitlocke: Sure.

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So as a, as a child, I'll go right back.

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And as a child, I was in a,
uh, a foster home for a couple

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of years as a little baby.

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So, my sister wasn't, due to certain,
uh, circumstances, unfortunately,

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I was the one that had to go.

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So, uh, when I eventually came home,
the first, sorry, I should, the

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first, uh, foster home was not good.

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was not good.

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And even though I was a baby, I
remember certain things was not good.

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Then I was moved to a another place,
which was better, because they

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had toys and I had another child
there so I could play with them.

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Previously, they had none of that.

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And, uh, then I got scarlet fever.

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I had to go to Austin hospital
into the infectious diseases.

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So I was also in isolation
again for a few more weeks.

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I came out of that and
then I got a measles.

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I had to go back into isolation.

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By the time I got home, I was
a very confused little girl.

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And, uh, then I was
introduced to my sister.

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that I didn't even know that I had and
it caused, you know, I had just come from

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a situation where I had not felt love
and I had felt, uh, great insecurity.

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And my, yes, sorry.

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And what age, Annie,

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Catherine Ashton: were you when you
met your sister for the first time?

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Annie Whitlocke: I was
about three and a half.

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Wow.

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And uh so you know they had toys there
and I wanted the toys and I think there

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probably was some feelings of of guilt and
being uncomfortable that my my mother had

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to do this and uh and she had to do this.

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I I understood that.

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She had no choice in those days.

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And uh my sister was always
told give Annie the toys.

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Give Annie the toys.

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And I think that caused a bit of a
rift between my sister and myself.

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So, the, that was some of the background,
then I, I was married at 17, I left

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school at 14, I had 6 miscarriages.

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I was, uh, sterilized when I was 21.

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I had a oophorectomy hysterectomy
when I was 28 and in that time my,

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I had been married a few times and,
uh, one husband died when he was,

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uh, we'd been married for six months.

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He was in a car accident
and he was killed.

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I had to go to the, uh,
morgue to identify him.

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And then a fiancé had, uh, he had
taken his life when I was having

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my hysterectomy, oophorectomy.

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It was, uh, so these,
these experiences have,

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I say that they've broken my heart open.

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And rather than contracting,
I have I have opened more.

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This is how it feels to me.

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So that I was a youth
worker for many years.

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I worked with quadriplegics
for many years.

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I was a practice manager for
15 years in medical centers.

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I've seen And I've experienced
suffering and joy and, and I always

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sort of lean towards the suffering
aspect of it and I wonder if that

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was because of my background.

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Sometimes we can't always explain
why we are, why we are drawn to

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a particular, uh, experience.

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Catherine Ashton: And turn that
experience as well, you know, like

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from, from so much heartache and trauma.

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To, I suppose, use that and, uh,
the way in which you have and it

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seems to have, you know, channeled
it in a, in a more positive manner

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than perhaps some other people have.

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Annie Whitlocke: Yes.

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And I don't know how, why I
was fortunate to be able to do

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that, but I was, and I continue.

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to learn.

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So the people that I'm with at end
of life and their and their people.

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So I don't call them clients
because they're not clients to me.

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They're my teachers.

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Every time I meet another person,
it's an opportunity for me to

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smooth any ragged edges down.

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And I would be kidding myself if
I didn't think that I had them.

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Catherine Ashton: Yeah, yeah.

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Just two seconds.

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I've just, bear with me, Annie.

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I can hear my family
being rowdy, very rowdy.

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Okay, now, Annie, my apologies.

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So where would you like to pick up?

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Oh, um, I suppose that the fact that you
were fortunate that you've, you've turned

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it into something positive for yourself.

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Annie Whitlocke: All right, so probably
four and a half, maybe five years ago now,

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Sarah Kressnerstein, uh, came, uh, to my
place and, uh, we had a, uh, a talk and,

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uh, a wonderful talk, went on for about
like four or five hours and, uh, this was

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an, uh, for an article for The Australian.

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And after, uh, we had spoken, and Uh,
Sarah rang me up a couple of weeks

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later and she said look I'm writing
this book, uh, The Believer and

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previously her first book was The Trauma
Cleaner, which was a, an amazing book.

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Catherine Ashton: Yeah,
it really is, isn't it?

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Annie Whitlocke: You read it?

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Catherine Ashton: I have, I have and,
and she was actually a local Frankston

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woman, so it's, it's very close to here.

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Annie Whitlocke: Yes.

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I mean, I, so when,
and I, and I'd read it.

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So, oh my gosh.

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And we're

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Catherine Ashton: just referring to Sandra
Pankhurst and her life story that, that

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Sarah wrote about in Trauma Cleaner.

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Annie Whitlocke: Yes.

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Thank you.

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Thank you.

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So, uh, so a couple of weeks
later, she rang me up and she

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said, look, I'm writing this book.

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would you be interested
in being a part of it?

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It's a story about six different
people and it's called The Believer

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because it's about, you know, why
do people believe what they believe?

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And how did they get to that point?

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And what were their challenges?

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And how do they benefit others?

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And I said, Oh, that sounds Wonderful
and I'm really honored and then

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I said, I've just gotta ask uh
someone if it's okay because I

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need to be able to speak my truth.

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So, then I uh contacted my my husband,
my ex husband and we had had a

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very violent marriage and uh there
was definitely domestic violence.

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And I said to him, but he's the father of
of my two boys and everything is fine now.

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We're talking many decades ago now.

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And I said, I've been asked to tell
my story and to be for a book and

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I said, I'm just ringing you up
because I need to understand if it's

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okay with you that I can be honest.

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Bless him.

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He said, it's okay.

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Now, when he said, it's
okay, I'm thinking.

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I'm so grateful.

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And then I thought, Oh, is this because
maybe you've forgotten what you did?

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Catherine Ashton: But either way, yes,
I think it's amazing that you even asked

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Annie Whitlocke: Look, I had to because
you know, I had to be able to Speak

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my truth to Sarah and there was a
lot of very sensitive material And

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I think, you know, some of it's been
censored, some of it hasn't been.

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And, uh, so, so then, it
took a, a couple of years.

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Sarah would come round in between,
she'd keep going back to America,

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interviewing people here, coming to me.

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I was with a woman who was,
uh, facing end of life.

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I was her deathbed.

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And, uh, Sarah had said that if
any of the people that I'm with, if

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she would be able to accompany me.

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So, the other people, they all
said, no, I don't feel comfortable.

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No problem.

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Totally respect that.

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And then I met this woman
who had breast cancer.

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And, uh, I mentioned to her,
if Sarah could come, and she

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said, absolutely, bring her.

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She said, and she was a bit like
me, I want it out there, I want

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to be able to speak my truth.

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And she was spectacular.

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So, Sarah and I would go round to this
lady, and then, with her while she was

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going through the, her, uh, her pathway
of, uh, joy and suffering and her family.

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And, and when she had died, I, I had got
pneumonia, so I couldn't be with her, but

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I had, uh, organized, uh, previously a
funeral director who had a cooling plate,

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Anyway, that's a whole nother story.

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So being able to, it was so
uplifting for me to not have to

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worry about, or can I say this?

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Is this appropriate?

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Whatever Sarah asked me, I
told her the truth, my truth.

230
00:15:25,329 --> 00:15:29,949
Now, we all know the truth can
vary according to the person.

231
00:15:30,010 --> 00:15:31,799
So what I see is my truth.

232
00:15:32,069 --> 00:15:34,199
Another person may see it is not.

233
00:15:34,365 --> 00:15:39,085
Because it doesn't, uh, correspond
with their truth, but anyway, it

234
00:15:39,085 --> 00:15:44,145
was, uh, I was very honored to have
been, to being part of that and

235
00:15:44,165 --> 00:15:46,495
also to have been able to open up.

236
00:15:46,734 --> 00:15:51,195
Sarah was a great listener, and she
didn't just ask me questions, she shared

237
00:15:51,195 --> 00:15:56,970
a Also a lot about her own life and
about her thoughts and her opinions.

238
00:15:57,319 --> 00:16:00,370
And I think this is why I
was able to connect with her.

239
00:16:00,649 --> 00:16:03,689
So if I was to just have someone
ask me questions and they weren't

240
00:16:03,689 --> 00:16:05,390
going to get into it with me.

241
00:16:05,830 --> 00:16:06,300
Yeah.

242
00:16:06,410 --> 00:16:09,724
Then I, it's just one sided.

243
00:16:10,615 --> 00:16:15,035
Catherine Ashton: Yeah, especially about
that very in depth process of of writing

244
00:16:15,035 --> 00:16:19,285
a book as you said it was over a very
long period of time So it's something

245
00:16:19,285 --> 00:16:20,885
that you have to share, isn't it?

246
00:16:21,345 --> 00:16:25,134
Annie Whitlocke: Yeah, so
that was that was one great

247
00:16:25,315 --> 00:16:27,935
honor that I've had in my life

248
00:16:29,465 --> 00:16:32,635
Catherine Ashton: And Annie just
talking about that that process that

249
00:16:32,635 --> 00:16:39,215
you went through, was the seeking of,
of permission from your ex husband, was

250
00:16:39,215 --> 00:16:43,715
that the thing that was the, the pivotal
point where you go, okay, yeah, I'm

251
00:16:43,715 --> 00:16:49,094
going to share all because I, I don't,
were you really seeking permission

252
00:16:49,094 --> 00:16:53,295
from him or were you seeking permission
really for yourself at that stage?

253
00:16:53,835 --> 00:16:54,725
Annie Whitlocke: Really from him.

254
00:16:55,615 --> 00:16:58,805
I, I was okay because I got quite excited.

255
00:16:58,935 --> 00:17:01,325
And I'm thinking, yes, I'm ready for this.

256
00:17:02,395 --> 00:17:08,355
And all my life I've, you know, little
tidbits I've, I've, I've released little

257
00:17:08,574 --> 00:17:15,054
things about me but I've never been able
to be brutally honest and vulnerable.

258
00:17:16,405 --> 00:17:22,135
And so I think it was because he gave me
the permission that I knew that I wasn't

259
00:17:22,144 --> 00:17:25,770
going to, offend anyone by my actions.

260
00:17:25,860 --> 00:17:27,410
That was really important.

261
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:35,330
Catherine Ashton: And has that made
your storytelling and your role, uh,

262
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:40,569
in, in what you do, uh, easier since
you've actually had that opportunity

263
00:17:40,570 --> 00:17:43,180
to tell your story in, in its entirety?

264
00:17:43,459 --> 00:17:45,320
That's a good question, Catherine.

265
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:45,960
I

266
00:17:45,970 --> 00:17:48,800
Annie Whitlocke: never
even thought of that.

267
00:17:49,300 --> 00:17:49,730
But.

268
00:17:50,310 --> 00:17:52,600
Yes, I think it did.

269
00:17:52,670 --> 00:17:55,490
I think it broke the dam.

270
00:17:56,990 --> 00:17:58,050
Yeah, yeah.

271
00:17:59,330 --> 00:18:03,890
Catherine Ashton: And at what stage were
you, uh, when you were approached by

272
00:18:03,910 --> 00:18:09,630
Sarah in relation to your, for want of a
better word, journey into, to Buddhism?

273
00:18:09,659 --> 00:18:14,520
I know that you've always had meditation
as part of a focus for yourself,

274
00:18:14,820 --> 00:18:18,520
but at what point did you, did you,
did you, convert to Buddhism and,

275
00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:21,480
and, and what attracted you to that

276
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:21,936
Annie Whitlocke: faith?

277
00:18:21,936 --> 00:18:29,600
It was over 40 years ago, probably
45 years ago now, when I, uh, uh,

278
00:18:30,140 --> 00:18:36,659
when I converted, when I actually
decided that this was the the

279
00:18:36,669 --> 00:18:40,080
pathway that, uh, intrigued me.

280
00:18:40,649 --> 00:18:45,210
I read this book, it was called, it
was by Ram Dass, it was called Grist

281
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:54,770
for the Mill, and it was in the 70s,
and I read it, and it was like reading

282
00:18:55,950 --> 00:19:02,490
Something that I would not have written,
but I understood what they were saying,

283
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:11,960
and I could see the logic in it, and I
could also see the difficulty ahead of

284
00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:15,109
me if I was going to follow this path.

285
00:19:16,429 --> 00:19:19,460
And I do like a challenge, I will admit.

286
00:19:20,270 --> 00:19:23,390
And so I, I started
reading about Buddhism.

287
00:19:23,985 --> 00:19:29,045
Reading and reading and reading and
going to teachings and going to courses

288
00:19:30,015 --> 00:19:35,515
and one of the things that I loved
about Buddhism, I say that it takes no

289
00:19:35,535 --> 00:19:42,455
prisoners, I, my study, I lean towards
Tibetan Buddhism, the Vajrayana.

290
00:19:43,344 --> 00:19:47,065
So in Buddhism, there's the
Theravadan, there's the Mahayana.

291
00:19:47,345 --> 00:19:48,775
And then there's the Vajrayana.

292
00:19:49,575 --> 00:19:54,585
And, uh, I mean, it's all interconnected
anyway, there's the same teachings,

293
00:19:54,585 --> 00:19:59,775
but because due to cultural
differences, uh, they, uh, practice

294
00:19:59,775 --> 00:20:01,794
a bit differently to other countries.

295
00:20:02,645 --> 00:20:05,104
And I,

296
00:20:07,264 --> 00:20:14,764
one of my, my biggest teachings was
that I learned that death is one of, uh,

297
00:20:14,774 --> 00:20:18,024
Buddhists, Buddhism's greatest teachers.

298
00:20:18,994 --> 00:20:25,575
Because death is about impermanence
and it's about accepting that we

299
00:20:25,644 --> 00:20:31,205
are not creatures that we will die.

300
00:20:31,345 --> 00:20:38,874
Every sentient being, every
living creature will die and

301
00:20:39,195 --> 00:20:41,764
in Buddhism it goes further.

302
00:20:42,054 --> 00:20:47,334
So the mountains will wear down,
the rivers will run dry, the,

303
00:20:47,485 --> 00:20:51,614
the sky will change, the trees
will grow and they will die.

304
00:20:52,244 --> 00:20:55,944
Everything changes and
nothing is permanent.

305
00:20:56,424 --> 00:21:00,844
So this was a fascinating concept
to me and I delved into it.

306
00:21:00,844 --> 00:21:02,774
As I delved into it.

307
00:21:03,945 --> 00:21:11,185
I became more and more intrigued by the
aspect of death and the dying and the

308
00:21:11,185 --> 00:21:17,675
death and in Buddhism, in particular,
the, uh, the, the Vajrayana, they have

309
00:21:17,685 --> 00:21:19,825
these beautiful death meditations.

310
00:21:20,825 --> 00:21:23,445
So I started doing that.

311
00:21:24,454 --> 00:21:25,004
And.

312
00:21:25,335 --> 00:21:31,965
Realizing that how it was
benefiting my day to day life.

313
00:21:32,435 --> 00:21:36,254
It helped me to look at
life in a different way.

314
00:21:36,745 --> 00:21:44,544
So regarding, uh, mindfulness practice,
that's it's, it's an opportunity for me.

315
00:21:44,544 --> 00:21:49,600
I learned that I could
actually See my confusion.

316
00:21:50,270 --> 00:21:53,230
Recognize that this was inappropriate.

317
00:21:53,850 --> 00:21:57,970
I may not be able to do anything
about it, but I can see you.

318
00:21:58,460 --> 00:22:02,769
And, okay, I'll park you for a little
bit, but you haven't gone anywhere

319
00:22:02,770 --> 00:22:04,179
and I'm going to address you.

320
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:07,109
So I'll give you an example.

321
00:22:07,139 --> 00:22:15,289
Perhaps if I had a, a feeling of animosity
towards a, a person or anything, a

322
00:22:15,449 --> 00:22:20,290
political party or a American president.

323
00:22:20,710 --> 00:22:21,550
Just for example.

324
00:22:21,820 --> 00:22:22,570
Just for example.

325
00:22:23,030 --> 00:22:28,920
And how do I deal with that?

326
00:22:29,010 --> 00:22:33,929
Because if I hate, that serves no purpose.

327
00:22:33,929 --> 00:22:37,620
In fact, all that does
is it hinders my growth.

328
00:22:38,609 --> 00:22:46,190
So I had to start to learn
to Create a space between my,

329
00:22:46,270 --> 00:22:51,730
my judgment, my preconceived
biases and the actual reality.

330
00:22:51,730 --> 00:22:53,050
What is reality?

331
00:22:53,430 --> 00:22:57,159
So a lot of the things I was looking
at things and I was coloring it with my

332
00:22:57,189 --> 00:23:00,279
own reality, just as everyone else is.

333
00:23:00,865 --> 00:23:02,945
Well, that's not reality, is it?

334
00:23:04,335 --> 00:23:10,315
But in Buddhism, I mean, and probably many
other traditions also, took me to that

335
00:23:10,345 --> 00:23:13,135
reality which made a lot of sense to me.

336
00:23:15,285 --> 00:23:17,245
Catherine Ashton: Oh, that's, thank
you for explaining that, Annie.

337
00:23:17,635 --> 00:23:18,955
I really appreciate that.

338
00:23:19,325 --> 00:23:25,035
And how do you think that the role
that The Buddhism, your Buddhism

339
00:23:25,035 --> 00:23:29,605
has played in your role as a, as a
death doula, sort of, how did the,

340
00:23:29,635 --> 00:23:31,435
the role as a death doula come along?

341
00:23:31,445 --> 00:23:35,175
You mentioned, what, 45 years ago
you, you, you were attracted and

342
00:23:35,175 --> 00:23:37,355
started your journey with Buddhism.

343
00:23:37,685 --> 00:23:41,014
When did, when did being a
death doula come into play?

344
00:23:41,335 --> 00:23:45,215
I, I, I understand that you ran your
own business for a period of time.

345
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:46,230
Yes,

346
00:23:46,230 --> 00:23:50,129
Annie Whitlocke: yes, I, uh, I run
a business that's called Anjian

347
00:23:50,129 --> 00:23:52,470
Australia, and I was a designer.

348
00:23:52,860 --> 00:23:57,240
We, uh, we were importers, exporters,
wholesalers, and we sold around the world.

349
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,050
And I designed products that represented
positive symbolism from all, uh,

350
00:24:02,050 --> 00:24:04,270
world cultures and faith traditions.

351
00:24:04,340 --> 00:24:09,350
And, obviously, uh, death was one
of those things that I focused on.

352
00:24:09,750 --> 00:24:15,985
So I had a, uh, Magnificent creative
platform that I could actually design

353
00:24:15,985 --> 00:24:22,425
these products and write what I thought
was meaningful, uh, text and attach it

354
00:24:22,435 --> 00:24:26,414
to every product so that people would
also understand a bit more about it.

355
00:24:27,065 --> 00:24:31,205
Hopefully, maybe learn
a little thing as well.

356
00:24:32,975 --> 00:24:33,375
Yeah.

357
00:24:33,375 --> 00:24:36,185
And from there?

358
00:24:37,695 --> 00:24:38,485
So, uh.

359
00:24:39,045 --> 00:24:45,875
When I sold the business was on the,
uh, the 10th of the 10th, 2010 at 10 a.

360
00:24:45,925 --> 00:24:46,205
m.

361
00:24:47,285 --> 00:24:48,015
Oh, really?

362
00:24:48,225 --> 00:24:49,085
My goodness.

363
00:24:49,334 --> 00:24:51,715
The man who bought it,
that's what he wanted.

364
00:24:52,445 --> 00:24:53,145
Really?

365
00:24:53,325 --> 00:24:53,575
Yeah.

366
00:24:54,015 --> 00:24:59,115
So, so I've, then I decided, so just
before I sold, I had decided, you

367
00:24:59,115 --> 00:25:04,075
know, I was I had it up for sale
and I knew that I had to change.

368
00:25:04,365 --> 00:25:07,605
I had to change my life because
my business, gosh, I mean, anyone

369
00:25:07,605 --> 00:25:10,984
who runs their own business
knows that that's 24 seven.

370
00:25:11,795 --> 00:25:16,865
And so what am I going to get into that?

371
00:25:16,875 --> 00:25:21,915
I can bring my passion and I thought
I'm going to become a funeral celebrant.

372
00:25:22,535 --> 00:25:23,095
So.

373
00:25:23,530 --> 00:25:27,699
Then I, I went and I got my
qualifications to be a funeral celebrant.

374
00:25:27,709 --> 00:25:29,120
I didn't worry about the marriage.

375
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:33,099
That didn't do anything for me probably
because of my, my failed marriages.

376
00:25:33,100 --> 00:25:35,279
I just didn't have it anyway.

377
00:25:35,949 --> 00:25:37,229
Anyway, I

378
00:25:39,620 --> 00:25:42,549
decided to become a funeral celebrant.

379
00:25:42,999 --> 00:25:47,189
Started doing funerals and
you know, I was very honored.

380
00:25:47,399 --> 00:25:50,350
It was beautiful and I, I
loved doing the funerals.

381
00:25:51,014 --> 00:25:56,335
But I wanted to get closer
to people at end of life.

382
00:25:57,165 --> 00:26:02,615
Now, at this stage, I had been with
my grandfather, who had died at home.

383
00:26:03,025 --> 00:26:08,235
I was in bed with him, my mother was on
his left side, I was on his right side.

384
00:26:08,584 --> 00:26:14,765
My eight year old son was sitting in a
chair by his bed, and grandpa was dying.

385
00:26:15,135 --> 00:26:18,355
He had chosen to fast, to death.

386
00:26:18,695 --> 00:26:19,935
He had renal failure.

387
00:26:19,935 --> 00:26:21,524
He did not want to go to hospital.

388
00:26:21,534 --> 00:26:23,395
He, he was a medic in the army.

389
00:26:23,504 --> 00:26:25,784
He knew what he would be up for.

390
00:26:26,495 --> 00:26:28,635
And, uh, so he died.

391
00:26:29,004 --> 00:26:33,075
And it was beautiful that my son,
he actually wanted to be there.

392
00:26:33,399 --> 00:26:35,020
So and I let him stay there.

393
00:26:36,029 --> 00:26:43,580
And then also my many other
people had died because of the

394
00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:48,369
miscarriages and people wouldn't
talk about the miscarriage.

395
00:26:48,369 --> 00:26:54,479
You know, I lost my babies between 10
and 12 weeks and it was never discussed.

396
00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:00,999
So I just had to carry that as though
it was, it was almost felt like a shame

397
00:27:01,630 --> 00:27:08,304
that like, I couldn't keep a baby in
my womb, you know, I kept losing them.

398
00:27:09,225 --> 00:27:13,015
But I also know that that was
due to the domestic violence.

399
00:27:13,695 --> 00:27:13,825
Hmm.

400
00:27:15,215 --> 00:27:16,694
And so where were we up to?

401
00:27:18,324 --> 00:27:22,225
Catherine Ashton: When, when you
moved from being a funeral celebrant

402
00:27:22,574 --> 00:27:24,435
into becoming a death dweller.

403
00:27:24,575 --> 00:27:26,105
Annie Whitlocke: So, yes, thank you.

404
00:27:27,315 --> 00:27:28,105
That's okay.

405
00:27:29,365 --> 00:27:31,074
I, then I had to study.

406
00:27:32,145 --> 00:27:34,504
And I studied with the.

407
00:27:35,270 --> 00:27:37,320
Denise Love, Life Options.

408
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:44,500
I did all of her courses and the death
of a baby and, uh, all the other ones.

409
00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:45,950
And then, uh, Michael, Dr.

410
00:27:45,950 --> 00:27:49,850
Michael Barbato, a palliative care
physician in the Blue Mountains.

411
00:27:49,850 --> 00:27:50,900
I studied with him.

412
00:27:51,330 --> 00:27:54,579
I studied with Christine
Longacre from America.

413
00:27:54,610 --> 00:27:57,030
She came down and did a, an intensive.

414
00:27:57,030 --> 00:27:58,020
I did that with her.

415
00:27:58,700 --> 00:28:02,340
Uh, Rick Hansen, I did
a, uh, an intensive.

416
00:28:02,425 --> 00:28:05,025
the course with him, not on
death, but on neurobiology.

417
00:28:06,715 --> 00:28:12,615
And, uh, I also studied with
Zenith Varago, all of hers.

418
00:28:13,555 --> 00:28:22,095
And then I thought, okay, you know, I'm
feeling a bit confident and I, I started,

419
00:28:22,164 --> 00:28:27,645
uh, going out and seeing people, but
I was always talking about it anyway.

420
00:28:28,465 --> 00:28:29,215
And.

421
00:28:30,620 --> 00:28:34,230
That's when I started to become a
Death Dueler, so I've been doing that

422
00:28:34,230 --> 00:28:41,020
for about 14 years now, and through
Denise Love, so, uh, Life Options,

423
00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:47,320
she asked me to be a facilitator for
her courses online as a Death Dueler.

424
00:28:47,780 --> 00:28:52,899
So I've done that for a couple of
years then as a Pet Death Dueler, and

425
00:28:52,909 --> 00:28:55,030
I've done that for a couple of years.

426
00:28:55,469 --> 00:28:57,800
So it's very honored that she trusted me.

427
00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:59,450
to be able to do that.

428
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,470
And I And tell

429
00:29:02,470 --> 00:29:04,770
Catherine Ashton: me about
that, a pet death door lock.

430
00:29:05,870 --> 00:29:08,229
Annie Whitlocke: Well, I think
people with pets, and I can see

431
00:29:08,230 --> 00:29:11,040
a little pussycat behind you,
lovely little black and white one.

432
00:29:11,470 --> 00:29:12,180
Yes, yes.

433
00:29:12,180 --> 00:29:12,770
Boy or girl?

434
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:14,240
Catherine Ashton: Boy.

435
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:14,780
What's his name?

436
00:29:14,810 --> 00:29:16,239
Yes, a bandit.

437
00:29:16,239 --> 00:29:16,969
Very spoilt.

438
00:29:18,719 --> 00:29:19,119
Annie Whitlocke: Bandit.

439
00:29:20,420 --> 00:29:22,900
Well, I've had many animals.

440
00:29:23,550 --> 00:29:24,990
I was a vet nurse.

441
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,780
I have

442
00:29:30,780 --> 00:29:37,180
Several years ago, my greyhound
was run over in front of me at

443
00:29:37,180 --> 00:29:41,580
the front of my house and that
just knocked me for a sixer.

444
00:29:41,590 --> 00:29:46,440
I mean she, she had, she was so excited
she was going to go with the walk next

445
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,609
door with our neighbor who every night
would take her and her two dogs for

446
00:29:49,609 --> 00:29:53,829
a walk and for some reason Karma did
something that she doesn't normally do.

447
00:29:53,859 --> 00:29:57,794
Just before I had the lead on her, she
ran down the front and that abused her.

448
00:29:57,795 --> 00:30:00,925
Big SUV was charging down the street.

449
00:30:01,195 --> 00:30:02,625
Anyway, connected.

450
00:30:02,725 --> 00:30:04,285
She was killed instantly.

451
00:30:05,855 --> 00:30:11,724
So there was obviously, there was a
regret and I'm saying guilt, but I knew

452
00:30:11,725 --> 00:30:13,694
that I had done everything possible.

453
00:30:13,695 --> 00:30:16,014
It was a fluke that this happened.

454
00:30:16,605 --> 00:30:23,915
Then I started fostering and adopting,
uh, seriously disabled animals.

455
00:30:24,885 --> 00:30:28,365
And, and, and that's what
I, what I have right now.

456
00:30:28,375 --> 00:30:31,945
So I've had up to six at, at a time.

457
00:30:32,465 --> 00:30:37,174
And, uh, the little girl that, or
I was going to talk about what I've

458
00:30:37,174 --> 00:30:44,000
got now, but, so that led me to,
uh, Because it's sentient beings.

459
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:53,119
So in Buddhism, an ant, a slug, a little
microbe, to the great big elephant,

460
00:30:53,200 --> 00:31:00,610
are all worthy of my compassion and
my attention so that they can live

461
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,494
a good life as much as possible.

462
00:31:05,465 --> 00:31:10,545
And also we're not good with
when someone's pet when their

463
00:31:10,745 --> 00:31:12,805
companion animal has died.

464
00:31:13,354 --> 00:31:16,354
Some are great, but usually not so good.

465
00:31:16,354 --> 00:31:21,354
And people don't feel comfortable
explaining that my cat or my dog or my

466
00:31:21,355 --> 00:31:28,115
fish or my bird has died because they're
not confident that they will be given

467
00:31:28,115 --> 00:31:30,335
the compassion that they so deserve.

468
00:31:32,235 --> 00:31:34,925
And that's usually kept Very quiet.

469
00:31:34,935 --> 00:31:41,985
So as a pet death doer, encouraging people
to speak openly about it, bring it out

470
00:31:42,015 --> 00:31:47,195
into the open, death literacy for animals
as well, for humans and for animals.

471
00:31:49,415 --> 00:31:51,434
Catherine Ashton: Because I think
that that's something that a lot

472
00:31:51,435 --> 00:31:56,835
of people do hold within them
is, is that grief associated

473
00:31:56,855 --> 00:31:59,715
when a companion animal does die.

474
00:32:00,340 --> 00:32:05,890
Uh, I know a, a nearby neighbor that
has had, uh, terrible experience with,

475
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:12,029
you know, people just not understanding
how much she is grieving and, and, and

476
00:32:12,029 --> 00:32:17,200
really understanding that it was as
significant to her as a family member,

477
00:32:17,569 --> 00:32:20,520
anyone, human or, or non human, so.

478
00:32:21,050 --> 00:32:24,800
Annie Whitlocke: Well, on Compass,
on this Sunday, the 7th of March,

479
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,600
they're doing a special, uh, edition
about the death of an animal.

480
00:32:30,810 --> 00:32:31,680
Catherine Ashton: Oh, fantastic.

481
00:32:31,710 --> 00:32:34,480
What we'll do is we'll put a
link in the, in the show notes

482
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:35,790
so people can look at it.

483
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:36,600
Annie Whitlocke: Good.

484
00:32:36,660 --> 00:32:37,410
I understand that.

485
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,540
I always read my age really late
because I've got so many things to read.

486
00:32:41,580 --> 00:32:43,170
But then I found that this morning.

487
00:32:43,899 --> 00:32:45,430
Catherine Ashton: Oh,
that's, that's great to know.

488
00:32:45,550 --> 00:32:46,960
Thanks for letting me know, Annie.

489
00:32:47,785 --> 00:32:51,055
So tell me a little bit about
Social Health Australia and how

490
00:32:51,055 --> 00:32:52,805
you started working with them.

491
00:32:53,215 --> 00:32:57,405
Originally, I believe you were an
associate director and then you decided

492
00:32:57,405 --> 00:32:59,945
to move to a team leader's role.

493
00:33:00,345 --> 00:33:02,594
Tell me about that aspect.

494
00:33:02,764 --> 00:33:03,084
Sure.

495
00:33:03,455 --> 00:33:05,285
Annie Whitlocke: Well, first of
all, I'm not a committee girl.

496
00:33:05,595 --> 00:33:08,385
And when I was asked to be on the
committee, I was very honoured.

497
00:33:08,385 --> 00:33:09,495
I thought this is great.

498
00:33:09,915 --> 00:33:12,845
And I've always said before that I would
never do another committee, but I did it.

499
00:33:13,210 --> 00:33:17,700
But, okay, then I had to back off because
I'm just not that kind of a person.

500
00:33:17,970 --> 00:33:20,570
I needed to have, I need
to be in the front line.

501
00:33:22,340 --> 00:33:23,690
Catherine Ashton: Well, you
know what your skills are.

502
00:33:23,830 --> 00:33:24,350
Yes.

503
00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:25,290
Annie Whitlocke: That's right.

504
00:33:25,500 --> 00:33:28,709
And I know what I'm comfortable doing.

505
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:29,590
Yeah.

506
00:33:29,699 --> 00:33:31,560
And I know what I'm uncomfortable doing.

507
00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:33,359
Catherine Ashton: Yeah, totally.

508
00:33:34,249 --> 00:33:36,330
Annie Whitlocke: Um, okay.

509
00:33:36,530 --> 00:33:37,220
I.

510
00:33:38,530 --> 00:33:41,550
It was about four and a half
years ago, Social Health Australia

511
00:33:41,550 --> 00:33:43,050
was under another name then.

512
00:33:43,570 --> 00:33:48,670
We started getting some funding and
we were training volunteers to be

513
00:33:48,670 --> 00:33:54,270
with people in the community at risk
of existential and social isolation.

514
00:33:55,189 --> 00:34:01,740
And then, uh, Last year and this year,
we were focusing more on, uh, loneliness

515
00:34:01,740 --> 00:34:07,760
in the community, uh, existential
and, uh, and social isolation.

516
00:34:08,210 --> 00:34:11,060
And then we moved to
voluntary assisted dying.

517
00:34:11,420 --> 00:34:14,839
Then we incorporated bereavement support.

518
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:21,600
And so we were, myself and Joe and
other people were training our valuable,

519
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:27,385
precious volunteers about, uh, One
of the main things, and I call it

520
00:34:27,385 --> 00:34:32,105
shut up edness, to practice shut up
edness, shut up and listen, we're

521
00:34:32,105 --> 00:34:36,404
not going to go into anyone's place
and tell them, you should do this,

522
00:34:36,464 --> 00:34:38,835
or I know what would be good here.

523
00:34:39,575 --> 00:34:40,055
No.

524
00:34:40,295 --> 00:34:44,355
We are with that person in
whatever state they're in.

525
00:34:44,565 --> 00:34:49,425
If they want to cry, if they want
to be angry, if they want to be,

526
00:34:49,685 --> 00:34:52,325
you know, sad, we will be with them.

527
00:34:53,305 --> 00:34:57,675
Because I think that we come
from a Perhaps a world, perhaps a

528
00:34:57,675 --> 00:35:01,035
society where we, we are not heard.

529
00:35:02,885 --> 00:35:07,645
And I must admit that was one
thing that was a big thing that

530
00:35:07,645 --> 00:35:09,694
I also learned from my family.

531
00:35:10,365 --> 00:35:11,145
Bless them.

532
00:35:11,725 --> 00:35:20,185
They were not good listeners and They
were not good listeners, so if I wanted

533
00:35:20,190 --> 00:35:27,425
to say something, I really, I either
had to shout above everyone else or

534
00:35:28,685 --> 00:35:34,295
keep quiet, and a lot of the time I just
kept quiet and then that keeping quiet

535
00:35:35,885 --> 00:35:39,445
became part of me because so many people.

536
00:35:40,005 --> 00:35:40,855
Interrupted.

537
00:35:41,755 --> 00:35:48,065
So many people would tell you without
being asked what you should do.

538
00:35:48,815 --> 00:35:52,695
And when I was younger, I didn't
have the skill set or the confidence

539
00:35:52,745 --> 00:35:54,225
to tell them to bugger off.

540
00:35:54,575 --> 00:35:55,635
But now I do.

541
00:35:56,505 --> 00:36:02,435
But a lot of people, they're very, they're
very polite and and because it's so

542
00:36:02,675 --> 00:36:07,485
normal, it's That they just go along with
it and then I hear about it afterward.

543
00:36:07,615 --> 00:36:10,905
Oh, this person said, you know,
do this and you should do that.

544
00:36:11,385 --> 00:36:16,425
Especially when someone has been
diagnosed with a terminal illness.

545
00:36:18,075 --> 00:36:20,655
All the, not all, but many.

546
00:36:21,135 --> 00:36:26,585
of the people who seem to know what's
right for them come around and they

547
00:36:26,585 --> 00:36:34,274
tell them all the things that they
should do ad nauseum and then the person

548
00:36:34,464 --> 00:36:41,644
will confide in me that this is really
hard you know people are telling me

549
00:36:41,645 --> 00:36:47,625
to do this and do that and i've seen
a lot of ways that it can go pear and

550
00:36:50,095 --> 00:36:55,585
so then i would bring up
the difficult conversations

551
00:36:57,635 --> 00:37:00,465
And sometimes it can be a bit confronting.

552
00:37:00,765 --> 00:37:03,295
So it's really important the way.

553
00:37:03,735 --> 00:37:05,975
So now we were talking about team leader.

554
00:37:05,975 --> 00:37:07,775
Now I'm talking as a death door.

555
00:37:07,775 --> 00:37:11,975
So I'm sort of, I'm deliberately trying
to confuse you and your listeners.

556
00:37:12,945 --> 00:37:16,755
Catherine Ashton: No, no, your
approach is, is perfectly fine.

557
00:37:17,145 --> 00:37:21,515
I think it's an indication of
how your manner is, regardless of

558
00:37:21,515 --> 00:37:23,005
what hat you're wearing, Annie.

559
00:37:23,475 --> 00:37:29,895
And I find that interesting when you're
talking about poor who, uh, when they're

560
00:37:29,895 --> 00:37:34,045
diagnosed with a terminal illness,
other people feel the need to fill

561
00:37:34,045 --> 00:37:39,765
that quiet space, uh, perhaps with, Do
you find that that's because they may

562
00:37:39,765 --> 00:37:42,695
be anxious and not sure what to say?

563
00:37:43,195 --> 00:37:46,985
Annie Whitlocke: Yes, yes, absolutely,
they don't know what to say, or perhaps

564
00:37:46,985 --> 00:37:48,665
they think they do know what to say.

565
00:37:49,315 --> 00:37:51,685
And because they've heard
other people say it.

566
00:37:52,694 --> 00:37:55,434
And, oh, this is what you
say in this situation.

567
00:37:55,775 --> 00:37:58,744
And so they will just mirror.

568
00:37:58,985 --> 00:37:59,355
Catherine Ashton: That.

569
00:38:00,025 --> 00:38:00,545
Mm.

570
00:38:01,485 --> 00:38:05,865
But if you've heard something that's not
helpful, that's not very good, is it?

571
00:38:06,395 --> 00:38:06,545
Annie Whitlocke: Yeah.

572
00:38:06,545 --> 00:38:09,574
How many times do we tell someone
when they say something like that,

573
00:38:09,595 --> 00:38:13,725
you know, like, well not, maybe
not to bugger off, but to just say,

574
00:38:14,035 --> 00:38:15,495
thank you, but I'm not interested?

575
00:38:17,065 --> 00:38:18,044
We don't.

576
00:38:18,755 --> 00:38:19,185
Yeah.

577
00:38:19,234 --> 00:38:19,704
Rarely.

578
00:38:19,724 --> 00:38:19,944
Yeah.

579
00:38:21,435 --> 00:38:24,155
And unless, unless we have the words.

580
00:38:24,965 --> 00:38:27,115
So words are so important.

581
00:38:27,445 --> 00:38:29,395
Body language is so important.

582
00:38:29,435 --> 00:38:33,015
Probably body language is more
important than the words that we use.

583
00:38:33,835 --> 00:38:36,495
And so this is one of the things
that we train our volunteers

584
00:38:36,495 --> 00:38:38,975
with in Social Health Australia.

585
00:38:40,245 --> 00:38:45,004
Catherine Ashton: And you've talked
about the essential role and learning the

586
00:38:45,005 --> 00:38:47,624
skill of shut up ness, which I do love.

587
00:38:47,675 --> 00:38:53,295
What, if someone is going to ask or see
someone who's being diagnosed with a

588
00:38:53,295 --> 00:38:58,415
terminal illness or who is dying, what
would you recommend that visitor do?

589
00:38:58,965 --> 00:39:05,945
does or says perhaps things to avoid
just based on your personal experience.

590
00:39:06,155 --> 00:39:07,465
Obviously it's anecdotal but

591
00:39:08,155 --> 00:39:08,595
Annie Whitlocke: okay.

592
00:39:10,645 --> 00:39:15,125
So I'm just thinking of all the
situations I can use as an example.

593
00:39:15,505 --> 00:39:18,364
I know quite the question
I've asked for my brain.

594
00:39:18,515 --> 00:39:19,125
That's okay.

595
00:39:19,585 --> 00:39:21,075
I'm thinking of this man.

596
00:39:21,455 --> 00:39:27,415
He was nearing end of life and he's

597
00:39:29,485 --> 00:39:35,144
he had this friend who would come in
and sit there and rather than just

598
00:39:35,635 --> 00:39:41,394
companioning being by their side they
felt they had to fill up the space with

599
00:39:41,394 --> 00:39:46,945
words and the words that they thought
they were would be helpful was telling

600
00:39:46,945 --> 00:39:49,185
this man, Oh, you should do this.

601
00:39:49,185 --> 00:39:52,525
And, you know, and I read about this
and, you know, have you done this?

602
00:39:52,815 --> 00:39:55,305
And it became really exhausting.

603
00:39:55,715 --> 00:40:00,525
So then I asked permission of the man,
if I could speak to his friend to let

604
00:40:00,525 --> 00:40:07,480
him know What his words, how his words
were reacting with his friend because

605
00:40:07,530 --> 00:40:13,640
he, this was an old friend and he, he
adored him and I was given permission

606
00:40:13,730 --> 00:40:15,860
because permission is a very big thing.

607
00:40:15,930 --> 00:40:17,540
Always have to ask permission.

608
00:40:17,569 --> 00:40:18,460
Can I do this?

609
00:40:18,469 --> 00:40:19,239
Can I say that?

610
00:40:20,610 --> 00:40:23,710
And then I spoke to his friend
and I was a little bit nervous.

611
00:40:23,730 --> 00:40:24,600
I didn't know.

612
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:29,420
I mean, I'm a stranger to this
person and here I am telling him

613
00:40:29,420 --> 00:40:33,710
what he could do and, and he got it.

614
00:40:33,939 --> 00:40:36,120
And he said, I, I just
didn't mean it like that.

615
00:40:36,829 --> 00:40:39,960
Cause then the good thing, I always
say, have you ever had anyone

616
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,390
said to you what you should do?

617
00:40:42,465 --> 00:40:46,845
And I didn't have to say anything else,
because I could tell by the look on

618
00:40:46,845 --> 00:40:49,625
their face, yeah, they got the point.

619
00:40:51,475 --> 00:40:51,695
Yeah.

620
00:40:53,155 --> 00:40:56,714
And how many of us have
been through that ourselves?

621
00:40:56,955 --> 00:41:02,785
Yet somehow, some of us just slip into
it, because we don't know the alternative.

622
00:41:04,274 --> 00:41:07,585
Which is why, you know, we
talk about death literacy.

623
00:41:08,195 --> 00:41:15,950
So, It's how to talk about it leading
up to someone's end of life after,

624
00:41:16,130 --> 00:41:20,990
you know, when we're with their people
and there are certain things that

625
00:41:21,020 --> 00:41:27,920
some people say, you know, so many,
I'm sure, and now your listeners.

626
00:41:29,675 --> 00:41:31,325
Oh, now they're with God.

627
00:41:31,815 --> 00:41:35,665
And okay, now if that person
was not religious, they

628
00:41:35,665 --> 00:41:36,915
would get annoyed with that.

629
00:41:36,915 --> 00:41:38,695
Or now they're in a better place.

630
00:41:39,674 --> 00:41:46,974
Uh, now they are in I can't think
of all of the things right now that

631
00:41:46,974 --> 00:41:50,025
people say that really inappropriate.

632
00:41:51,375 --> 00:41:53,325
Catherine Ashton: Oh, at
least they had a good life.

633
00:41:53,645 --> 00:41:54,665
Yes, that's right.

634
00:41:55,085 --> 00:41:56,765
They lived a long time.

635
00:41:57,275 --> 00:41:58,984
Oh, at least you've got another child.

636
00:41:58,984 --> 00:41:59,944
Annie Whitlocke: Oh my gosh.

637
00:41:59,944 --> 00:42:01,035
Yes, that's right.

638
00:42:01,415 --> 00:42:02,325
That was one of the things.

639
00:42:02,325 --> 00:42:06,715
So I was training, uh, these
Vietnamese women to become,

640
00:42:06,745 --> 00:42:08,255
uh, to be pastoral carers.

641
00:42:09,415 --> 00:42:13,145
And, and so one of the conversations,
and thank you for raising that because

642
00:42:13,175 --> 00:42:16,404
I know that, uh, that was something
that I wanted to talk about too.

643
00:42:17,084 --> 00:42:19,125
And so.

644
00:42:19,385 --> 00:42:24,305
I would say, in a situation, the
mother and the father, their baby

645
00:42:24,305 --> 00:42:26,315
has died, what would you say?

646
00:42:26,495 --> 00:42:29,575
And straight away, they
both said what you said.

647
00:42:30,125 --> 00:42:33,895
Well, you have another child,
or you're young, and you'll have

648
00:42:33,944 --> 00:42:35,415
another, you'll have another one.

649
00:42:36,435 --> 00:42:43,515
And then, so then all I did, I didn't say,
no, wrong, I just said, okay, imagine,

650
00:42:44,085 --> 00:42:52,125
That your baby has died, you're in the
room with your, with your husband and

651
00:42:52,125 --> 00:42:57,685
you're holding your dead baby in your
arms and then someone says to you, well

652
00:42:57,685 --> 00:43:04,105
at least you have another child or you're
young enough, you can have another child.

653
00:43:04,765 --> 00:43:05,865
How would you feel?

654
00:43:07,355 --> 00:43:08,715
That's all I had to say.

655
00:43:08,945 --> 00:43:09,635
They got it.

656
00:43:11,445 --> 00:43:14,885
So then we started talking
about what else can you say?

657
00:43:17,175 --> 00:43:21,595
And so they were coming from
their cultural background.

658
00:43:21,605 --> 00:43:23,035
This is what you would say.

659
00:43:23,965 --> 00:43:25,845
And so I just had to question that.

660
00:43:26,384 --> 00:43:30,554
And to just put it to them,
Well, how do you feel about that?

661
00:43:30,604 --> 00:43:32,604
Now you're in their shoes.

662
00:43:34,115 --> 00:43:36,175
Catherine Ashton: And is
that advice that perhaps

663
00:43:38,495 --> 00:43:43,415
other people should take on board, well,
all of us really, is maybe, just as I

664
00:43:43,415 --> 00:43:46,974
move the cat, sorry, bear with me, is
that advice that other people should

665
00:43:46,985 --> 00:43:52,285
take on board is perhaps, you know,
maybe just for a moment before speaking.

666
00:43:52,870 --> 00:43:56,840
Perhaps just put yourself in another
person's shoes, another person's

667
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:01,349
situation and, and think whether they
would like to actually hear the same

668
00:44:01,349 --> 00:44:02,910
advice that you're about to give.

669
00:44:03,429 --> 00:44:05,270
Is that perhaps a good

670
00:44:06,460 --> 00:44:07,010
Annie Whitlocke: filter?

671
00:44:07,229 --> 00:44:08,369
Yes, I think that's great.

672
00:44:08,590 --> 00:44:11,709
But I wouldn't use the word
should, I would say can.

673
00:44:14,875 --> 00:44:15,595
Yeah.

674
00:44:15,685 --> 00:44:19,155
I'm, I sort of, I go, I go
when I hear the word should.

675
00:44:20,125 --> 00:44:23,665
Catherine Ashton: No, that, that's, that's
really good because again it brings us

676
00:44:23,665 --> 00:44:29,604
back to things that we need to be aware
of that just we fall back into old habits

677
00:44:29,604 --> 00:44:30,954
when we're having these discussions.

678
00:44:31,164 --> 00:44:32,645
Annie Whitlocke: Yes, yes.

679
00:44:33,825 --> 00:44:35,055
I think that

680
00:44:37,145 --> 00:44:40,625
put yourself in that position,
how does it feel for you?

681
00:44:42,685 --> 00:44:48,195
Because then I will understand
how far they can go.

682
00:44:50,530 --> 00:44:53,980
This person does not have
the ability to have insight.

683
00:44:54,360 --> 00:45:02,550
That means I will need to use
another trick to get them to see,

684
00:45:02,789 --> 00:45:07,989
to have some insight into their
actions and how it can affect

685
00:45:08,029 --> 00:45:08,870
Catherine Ashton: another person.

686
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:14,570
And that's a good segue, I would say,
into, you know, your role as a team leader

687
00:45:14,570 --> 00:45:17,724
with Social Health Australia and that.

688
00:45:17,725 --> 00:45:21,395
that role of, of training people
in certain circumstances, but

689
00:45:21,655 --> 00:45:25,235
it's not really the only time that
you've been in that capacity as a,

690
00:45:25,545 --> 00:45:27,375
as an instructor or, or trainer.

691
00:45:27,755 --> 00:45:31,074
So I've, I've just got a list here
of, of different things that you've

692
00:45:31,074 --> 00:45:35,284
done, Annie, such as the meditation
instructor at Moorabbin Oncology.

693
00:45:35,635 --> 00:45:39,424
You've also spoken at Sterling
College and Monash Palliative

694
00:45:39,425 --> 00:45:41,925
Care about the Buddhist patient.

695
00:45:42,555 --> 00:45:44,595
That's a term I haven't heard before.

696
00:45:45,085 --> 00:45:46,345
The Buddhist patient.

697
00:45:46,535 --> 00:45:51,135
What is unique about a Buddhist
patient and and can you just explain

698
00:45:51,135 --> 00:45:52,535
that a little bit for us, please?

699
00:45:52,985 --> 00:45:53,315
Sure.

700
00:45:54,675 --> 00:45:57,775
Annie Whitlocke: As I said in Buddhism,
death is our greatest teacher.

701
00:45:58,830 --> 00:46:11,050
Because it reminds us that we will all
die, that we are finite creatures, and

702
00:46:13,100 --> 00:46:19,570
that when we die, one of the most
important things is for our mind to

703
00:46:19,599 --> 00:46:22,470
be in as peaceful a state as possible.

704
00:46:23,225 --> 00:46:27,525
For us to be as calm as
possible, if possible, of course.

705
00:46:29,335 --> 00:46:32,755
Then, we would use the, the meditation.

706
00:46:33,035 --> 00:46:36,005
Sometimes it depends on the individual.

707
00:46:37,355 --> 00:46:40,584
A death meditation can be very beneficial.

708
00:46:40,774 --> 00:46:41,384
Or not!

709
00:46:41,835 --> 00:46:43,425
It depends on the individual.

710
00:46:45,955 --> 00:46:50,445
After someone dies, I'm going to be going
a little bit backwards and forwards here.

711
00:46:50,955 --> 00:46:51,225
Sure.

712
00:46:51,385 --> 00:46:56,174
Usually when a Buddhist dies, they, a
very common request is to have no one

713
00:46:56,185 --> 00:46:58,394
to touch them at the time of death.

714
00:46:58,995 --> 00:47:05,120
Uh, in particular, around the The
feet, if it can be avoided, because

715
00:47:05,150 --> 00:47:12,419
at the time of death in, according to
Buddhism, to not touch the body, to

716
00:47:12,430 --> 00:47:17,570
have as little interference as possible,
so that the consciousness can leave

717
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,370
through the, the consciousness is said
to leave through the top of the head.

718
00:47:22,730 --> 00:47:27,610
So we will ask that their
feet are not touched, and

719
00:47:29,790 --> 00:47:35,785
that's basically a very, very simple Uh,
description of, of a Buddhist patient.

720
00:47:35,825 --> 00:47:39,445
Plus, uh, there will be
certain dietary things.

721
00:47:39,445 --> 00:47:45,175
There will be certain, uh, chants and
music and prayers that they will want.

722
00:47:45,795 --> 00:47:47,274
There will be,

723
00:47:49,525 --> 00:47:53,465
with the people, just because they're
Buddhists, doesn't necessarily mean

724
00:47:53,695 --> 00:47:58,395
that they are all conversant with the
stages of dying, according to Buddhism.

725
00:47:58,885 --> 00:48:02,845
One of the beautiful things about
the stages of dying in Buddhism,

726
00:48:02,845 --> 00:48:06,745
it's very similar to palliative
care and palliative care nurse and

727
00:48:06,745 --> 00:48:08,725
doctor can also recognize that.

728
00:48:09,294 --> 00:48:12,744
So we go by the four elements in the body.

729
00:48:13,195 --> 00:48:17,605
So, uh, when the earth element, the
earth element is the first one to,

730
00:48:17,845 --> 00:48:23,215
to go to leave the body, and that's
the, the, the, the weight of the body.

731
00:48:23,215 --> 00:48:24,595
We feel a weakness.

732
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:28,645
We cannot lift our heads, we cannot
talk, we cannot lift our arm.

733
00:48:28,855 --> 00:48:31,555
We just sink into the mattress.

734
00:48:31,855 --> 00:48:37,375
That's the earth element leaving,
and then it moves over to the,

735
00:48:37,555 --> 00:48:42,175
it could be the water element,
or perhaps it could be the heat.

736
00:48:42,465 --> 00:48:46,775
element, the fire element,
they can be interchangeable.

737
00:48:47,315 --> 00:48:53,355
And so if it is the water element, the
person will start feeling very thirsty.

738
00:48:53,665 --> 00:49:00,094
Their, um, the, the, the blood and
the things that will be and the, and

739
00:49:00,094 --> 00:49:04,829
the urine and all of the, the fluids
in the body, all start to change.

740
00:49:05,020 --> 00:49:09,330
Stop working as they did when all
of them organs were functioning.

741
00:49:09,330 --> 00:49:17,060
Now the organs are shutting down so the
water element is that's the dryness of

742
00:49:17,060 --> 00:49:22,140
the mouth and obviously usually when
someone is dying their mouth is quite

743
00:49:22,210 --> 00:49:25,480
open because they have that oxygen hunger.

744
00:49:26,380 --> 00:49:29,620
And so, and I explain that to the people.

745
00:49:29,910 --> 00:49:34,370
Then it will be the, the, the,
the, so the heat of the body.

746
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:40,340
And as I said, the, the heat of the
blood, the heart pumping, and when that

747
00:49:40,409 --> 00:49:48,160
leads, and then the last element is the
element of air, our last exhalation.

748
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:54,000
And so often I will say to people,
So this is the full circle.

749
00:49:54,330 --> 00:50:00,000
When you were born, you had your first
inhalation, and now you are dying,

750
00:50:00,260 --> 00:50:02,540
you will have your final exhalation.

751
00:50:04,319 --> 00:50:10,090
And that helps them to understand.

752
00:50:10,140 --> 00:50:14,529
Now some Buddhists do feel
comfortable with reincarnation.

753
00:50:15,159 --> 00:50:23,190
Not all do, but Which is why I say that if
they can become, if we can do everything

754
00:50:23,190 --> 00:50:28,000
in our power, that they have peace of
mind, that that peace of mind will then

755
00:50:28,030 --> 00:50:31,240
lead them to a beneficial reincarnation.

756
00:50:33,439 --> 00:50:37,239
So we don't want people,
uh, arguing in the room.

757
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:43,440
We don't want people crying out loud
or begging them, don't die, don't die.

758
00:50:43,930 --> 00:50:46,290
You cry, of course we can't help that.

759
00:50:46,860 --> 00:50:52,870
But, and no family conflict,
because that's the last thing

760
00:50:52,969 --> 00:50:55,049
that a dying person needs.

761
00:50:57,860 --> 00:50:59,540
Catherine Ashton: Because that's
correct in my understanding that

762
00:50:59,550 --> 00:51:01,570
hearing is the last sense to go.

763
00:51:01,710 --> 00:51:03,494
Hearing is the last sense to go.

764
00:51:03,665 --> 00:51:08,105
Annie Whitlocke: Yes, so I
encourage people to speak to them,

765
00:51:08,175 --> 00:51:12,625
even when they are unconscious,
even after they have died.

766
00:51:13,045 --> 00:51:19,065
And when they have died, then I will
say, uh, uh, a particular saying,

767
00:51:19,104 --> 00:51:24,774
and I will say this to people
who are Buddhist or not Buddhist.

768
00:51:25,275 --> 00:51:26,605
Can I read it out now?

769
00:51:27,345 --> 00:51:28,345
Yes, please, Annie.

770
00:51:28,405 --> 00:51:33,155
Okay, so I will call
this, uh, person Jane.

771
00:51:33,615 --> 00:51:34,395
Alright, Jane.

772
00:51:35,014 --> 00:51:37,625
Dearest Jane, you have now died.

773
00:51:38,195 --> 00:51:40,785
You are no longer in your physical body.

774
00:51:41,415 --> 00:51:42,304
This is right.

775
00:51:42,674 --> 00:51:44,335
This is as it should be.

776
00:51:45,230 --> 00:51:49,290
Please allow your soul to be
guided towards your next stage

777
00:51:49,710 --> 00:51:51,210
on this beautiful journey.

778
00:51:51,930 --> 00:51:53,440
Your life was lived well.

779
00:51:54,450 --> 00:51:59,810
Well, now no more of the countless
gems that you held close to you.

780
00:52:00,460 --> 00:52:02,600
Now no more of the times
that were difficult.

781
00:52:03,565 --> 00:52:05,495
This time has now ended.

782
00:52:06,325 --> 00:52:09,425
Please follow the direction
of your soul, your spirit.

783
00:52:10,255 --> 00:52:15,155
Many hearts full of love send their
limitless wishes for you, dear Jane.

784
00:52:16,005 --> 00:52:17,035
Go in peace.

785
00:52:17,455 --> 00:52:20,075
Go in trust that all will be well.

786
00:52:21,065 --> 00:52:22,584
Your stories remain on earth.

787
00:52:23,140 --> 00:52:29,330
And in the hearts of those who continue
to love you, have no fear at this time.

788
00:52:30,260 --> 00:52:34,140
You are now part of the endless
tune of all mortal beings.

789
00:52:34,780 --> 00:52:35,410
Rest.

790
00:52:36,060 --> 00:52:42,485
Now, sometimes, if the people are
interested, I will say that, You can

791
00:52:42,535 --> 00:52:50,575
actually, we can hold our hands close to
our hearts and to visualize that heartfelt

792
00:52:50,625 --> 00:52:54,105
love being directed to our hands.

793
00:52:55,035 --> 00:53:01,104
And then we place our hands on the person
and we send compassion and care from

794
00:53:01,125 --> 00:53:04,004
our hands to their now deceased body.

795
00:53:04,845 --> 00:53:08,865
Then we can begin the washing,
if that's what's wanted.

796
00:53:10,885 --> 00:53:12,015
Catherine Ashton: That's beautiful Annie.

797
00:53:12,855 --> 00:53:17,645
Now tell me, you just mentioned previously
about the fact that some people aren't

798
00:53:17,654 --> 00:53:20,405
comfortable with a reincarnation.

799
00:53:20,625 --> 00:53:23,094
Can you talk me through why that may be?

800
00:53:23,094 --> 00:53:28,224
Sorry, that is my cat falling
over things on my desk.

801
00:53:28,225 --> 00:53:32,755
But yeah, I'd be intrigued to hear about
why some people who are Buddhists may

802
00:53:32,755 --> 00:53:34,735
not be comfortable with reincarnation.

803
00:53:35,230 --> 00:53:35,780
Annie Whitlocke: Well,

804
00:53:36,670 --> 00:53:37,300
Catherine Ashton: Buddhism

805
00:53:37,300 --> 00:53:44,920
Annie Whitlocke: can take many different,
uh, it has many different faces, and

806
00:53:45,620 --> 00:53:49,920
even though as a Buddhist, we're usually
very comfortable with the concept of

807
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:57,140
reincarnation, some people, they will
call themselves a Buddhist, and, but

808
00:53:57,140 --> 00:54:02,679
there are certain things that they do
not follow, that they do not follow.

809
00:54:03,475 --> 00:54:05,915
Agree with and that's fine.

810
00:54:06,965 --> 00:54:11,105
There's no rigid rules Well, you can't
call yourself a Buddhist now because

811
00:54:11,115 --> 00:54:16,825
you know, you don't believe in that
Yeah, everyone will come to it with a

812
00:54:16,825 --> 00:54:24,345
different value and that value system
is What will color their their actions?

813
00:54:27,725 --> 00:54:31,815
Catherine Ashton: Okay, so that's, that's
good in me sort of understanding, like,

814
00:54:31,835 --> 00:54:37,295
that I was brought up in the Catholic
faith, and it's not a faith that I

815
00:54:37,685 --> 00:54:43,784
have, have practiced in, um, since I
was very young, uh, but the fact that,

816
00:54:44,075 --> 00:54:48,035
you know, to belong to, my understanding
of belonging to the Catholic faith is

817
00:54:48,315 --> 00:54:53,485
adhering to all doctrines, whereas for
something with what you're saying with

818
00:54:53,515 --> 00:54:55,725
Buddhism is that's very individualistic.

819
00:54:57,125 --> 00:55:01,145
in how you adhere to it, I suppose.

820
00:55:01,175 --> 00:55:01,965
Is that, would

821
00:55:01,965 --> 00:55:02,825
Annie Whitlocke: that be correct?

822
00:55:03,055 --> 00:55:03,695
Absolutely.

823
00:55:03,695 --> 00:55:10,845
The most important thing is that we
cause no harm, that we are compassionate,

824
00:55:11,074 --> 00:55:17,515
and if someone, uh, we don't like,
perhaps they've done bad things, we

825
00:55:17,674 --> 00:55:22,510
do not turn our Resentment onto them.

826
00:55:23,570 --> 00:55:26,470
So we accept full
responsibility ourselves.

827
00:55:26,710 --> 00:55:30,520
If we cannot help someone,
then do not hurt them.

828
00:55:30,530 --> 00:55:32,510
Do not harm them, at least.

829
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:37,020
So you don't have to
believe in reincarnation.

830
00:55:37,490 --> 00:55:43,449
You don't have to do all of the rituals
and the ceremonies and things like that.

831
00:55:43,699 --> 00:55:46,089
The most important thing is
that you're a good person.

832
00:55:48,429 --> 00:55:51,860
And that good person Can

833
00:55:54,270 --> 00:56:00,750
once again this is the uh the the
translation of what a good person means.

834
00:56:00,990 --> 00:56:07,200
So even some Buddhists who are
culturally Buddhist are not really

835
00:56:07,249 --> 00:56:09,430
clear on a lot of the teachings.

836
00:56:09,619 --> 00:56:13,109
Because they've been raised with
generational but perhaps they've

837
00:56:13,109 --> 00:56:15,869
never really questioned it.

838
00:56:15,949 --> 00:56:21,849
So sometimes people who have well
converted or have adopted Buddhism

839
00:56:22,429 --> 00:56:29,095
because they usually end up getting
really into it a bit more seriously.

840
00:56:29,475 --> 00:56:34,355
It's not uncommon that, uh, they
can often understand a bit more

841
00:56:34,355 --> 00:56:39,264
about it, but I'm not saying
that's across the board, obviously.

842
00:56:39,675 --> 00:56:43,014
Catherine Ashton: No, no, it sounds
like it's, it's, well, I suppose

843
00:56:43,014 --> 00:56:46,444
like any, any religion or it's
something that's very individual.

844
00:56:47,050 --> 00:56:47,590
It is.

845
00:56:47,690 --> 00:56:48,420
Exactly.

846
00:56:48,540 --> 00:56:49,050
Yes.

847
00:56:49,100 --> 00:56:49,690
Yes.

848
00:56:50,930 --> 00:56:58,109
Now, tell me Annie, what would you say
if you could provide, you know, advice to

849
00:56:58,140 --> 00:57:03,849
anyone in relation to if they're looking
at a terminal illness or supporting

850
00:57:03,849 --> 00:57:05,410
someone with a terminal illness?

851
00:57:05,890 --> 00:57:09,280
Do you have any advice that
we haven't mentioned already?

852
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:11,260
Probably.

853
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:15,660
Annie Whitlocke: Uh, I would always
encourage people or just usually to start

854
00:57:15,660 --> 00:57:17,380
talking about an advanced care directive.

855
00:57:18,570 --> 00:57:23,590
And this Advanced Care Directive, whether
or not it's put into place, at least

856
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:30,640
that person can get their wishes heard
by the people that are important to them.

857
00:57:31,140 --> 00:57:31,649
So, and I Annie,

858
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:35,919
Catherine Ashton: can you take me through
just the steps, what is involved in an

859
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,400
Advanced Care Directive, just so there's
no confusion about what that document is?

860
00:57:39,950 --> 00:57:40,260
Annie Whitlocke: Sure.

861
00:57:40,580 --> 00:57:46,280
An advanced care direct, uh, direction
or advanced care plan, it is only

862
00:57:46,310 --> 00:57:49,800
put into action when the person
is unable to speak for themselves.

863
00:57:50,490 --> 00:57:52,739
So this is something that
I always remind people.

864
00:57:52,770 --> 00:57:58,235
This is only when you're
unable to direct what you want.

865
00:57:58,835 --> 00:57:59,925
It's in writing.

866
00:57:59,945 --> 00:58:02,455
So your wishes will be followed.

867
00:58:02,755 --> 00:58:06,975
So an advanced care directive
comes in two, uh, sections.

868
00:58:06,975 --> 00:58:13,145
One is the, uh, instructional, and this
is the legal document that has to be

869
00:58:13,145 --> 00:58:14,895
signed by the doctor and witnessed.

870
00:58:15,135 --> 00:58:20,135
And then the other one is, oh,
this is embarrassing, So I've

871
00:58:20,435 --> 00:58:21,215
kind of forgotten what it was.

872
00:58:21,425 --> 00:58:23,301
Uh, so that's okay.

873
00:58:23,301 --> 00:58:24,557
But the

874
00:58:24,557 --> 00:58:25,184
Catherine Ashton: values.

875
00:58:25,185 --> 00:58:25,825
Ah, there you go.

876
00:58:25,825 --> 00:58:26,135
Values.

877
00:58:28,175 --> 00:58:30,695
Annie Whitlocke: And the values is
also very important because this

878
00:58:30,695 --> 00:58:33,775
is an opportunity to put down the
things that are important to you.

879
00:58:34,215 --> 00:58:38,225
In mine, I've got, uh, simple
things like I'm a Buddhist.

880
00:58:38,595 --> 00:58:40,265
These are the things that I would want.

881
00:58:40,275 --> 00:58:42,225
I would want time for meditation.

882
00:58:42,465 --> 00:58:44,875
I would, would want time
to listen to my prayers.

883
00:58:45,890 --> 00:58:52,680
I would, I don't eat broccoli, I don't
drink milk, I don't have a pillow, so

884
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,770
if anyone put a pillow under my head
I'd be put, I'd be throwing it on the

885
00:58:55,770 --> 00:58:58,810
ground and I have been in hospital
a few times and they put the pillow

886
00:58:58,860 --> 00:59:02,190
straight under my head and I said that
I don't want, but then a different nurse

887
00:59:02,190 --> 00:59:04,830
comes in and they think that they're
doing the right thing and no problem.

888
00:59:07,390 --> 00:59:13,720
Then also that I love touch, I love foot
massage, hand massage, leg, my back.

889
00:59:13,965 --> 00:59:14,835
Beautiful things.

890
00:59:15,135 --> 00:59:20,195
I, for me, dental hygiene, my hygiene,
my body hygiene is so important.

891
00:59:20,595 --> 00:59:26,335
So, and also, cream on my skin
after a wash and daily things like

892
00:59:26,335 --> 00:59:28,095
that and very important for me.

893
00:59:28,615 --> 00:59:33,465
I like to listen to certain music,
I like to have certain teachings.

894
00:59:33,845 --> 00:59:39,280
And so these are, there are also
there are Some people that I don't

895
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:41,140
want beside me when I'm dying.

896
00:59:42,140 --> 00:59:45,080
There are certain people
absolutely that I want you.

897
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:48,870
But there are definitely some
people that I don't want.

898
00:59:49,110 --> 00:59:52,870
These are the should people and I have a
pretty good idea what they would, I would

899
00:59:52,870 --> 00:59:54,730
know what they would be saying to me.

900
00:59:55,530 --> 00:59:58,760
But, uh, when you're dying you
don't really have much control.

901
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:00,630
You can't tell someone to bugger off.

902
01:00:01,030 --> 01:00:04,080
So, although some can,
you know, I have had that.

903
01:00:07,100 --> 01:00:10,640
Catherine Ashton: And for the people
who are supporting that, that person,

904
01:00:10,830 --> 01:00:16,040
uh, and, and surrounding that person,
uh, you know, towards end of life,

905
01:00:16,350 --> 01:00:21,890
what is some advice for them besides
perhaps practicing shut up ness?

906
01:00:24,340 --> 01:00:28,760
Annie Whitlocke: That we don't
get a dress rehearsal to die.

907
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:33,220
So the person.

908
01:00:33,610 --> 01:00:41,570
will be who is facing end of life will
be not uncommon for them to feel scared.

909
01:00:42,180 --> 01:00:43,730
They've never done this before.

910
01:00:45,350 --> 01:00:47,400
They don't know what's going to happen.

911
01:00:49,280 --> 01:01:02,960
That it's not advisable to say, just
relax, just calm down, because, uh, from

912
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:05,320
my experience, that doesn't really work.

913
01:01:05,810 --> 01:01:08,270
You need, you need a bit more than that.

914
01:01:08,530 --> 01:01:09,030
Really?

915
01:01:09,100 --> 01:01:10,570
Can you tell me how to relax?

916
01:01:10,570 --> 01:01:15,160
I'm, I'm sort of, now my breathing
is getting, uh, lesser and lesser.

917
01:01:15,180 --> 01:01:21,620
I can feel my body changing and it's
really hard for me to calm down.

918
01:01:22,020 --> 01:01:23,130
So, I would.

919
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:26,180
Encourage people to not
say things like that.

920
01:01:27,270 --> 01:01:28,720
Be with that person.

921
01:01:29,210 --> 01:01:31,980
You don't have to fill
up the space with words.

922
01:01:32,270 --> 01:01:33,740
Just a gentle touch.

923
01:01:34,450 --> 01:01:37,800
Maybe to put some music on
that you know that they like.

924
01:01:37,860 --> 01:01:39,330
Keep it really simple.

925
01:01:40,420 --> 01:01:43,820
Have your friends around
there, sitting with them.

926
01:01:45,065 --> 01:01:50,515
If they want to talk about old times,
if they want to talk about the, the

927
01:01:50,515 --> 01:01:57,255
stories, the shared stories, good, bad,
or otherwise, you know, it's when someone

928
01:01:57,255 --> 01:02:07,449
is dying, they develop a lean sense of
expression, and, and they I love it.

929
01:02:09,570 --> 01:02:15,570
Have excellent bullshit detectors so
if someone comes in and they start

930
01:02:15,620 --> 01:02:19,330
wafting on about something, you
know, that person's not interested.

931
01:02:19,330 --> 01:02:21,210
And I've heard this so many times.

932
01:02:22,020 --> 01:02:23,900
So, just be real.

933
01:02:24,460 --> 01:02:25,550
Be vulnerable.

934
01:02:26,430 --> 01:02:27,230
Be humble.

935
01:02:27,820 --> 01:02:29,100
Because you're going to die too.

936
01:02:29,610 --> 01:02:35,340
So you might as well get
something from this experience.

937
01:02:36,100 --> 01:02:40,030
Maybe you could use it in your
own advanced care directive.

938
01:02:40,310 --> 01:02:43,810
Well, you know, like I had this experience
and that's something that I don't want.

939
01:02:43,810 --> 01:02:45,880
So I'm going to put that in
my advanced care directive.

940
01:02:46,180 --> 01:02:49,240
Or at least I'm going to be able
to speak to people about it.

941
01:02:49,420 --> 01:02:50,960
This is what I do not want.

942
01:02:52,705 --> 01:02:56,835
Some people find it really difficult to
think of things that they do want, but

943
01:02:56,835 --> 01:03:00,885
they don't seem to have much trouble
in figuring out what they don't want.

944
01:03:02,105 --> 01:03:03,775
Catherine Ashton: And maybe is
that a good place for people

945
01:03:03,775 --> 01:03:05,725
to start if they don't know?

946
01:03:06,445 --> 01:03:08,135
Annie Whitlocke: Yeah, exactly.

947
01:03:08,425 --> 01:03:13,335
I mean, how many of us contemplate
that time when we will have no

948
01:03:13,395 --> 01:03:17,615
control over our body and the
circumstances and the outcome?

949
01:03:18,775 --> 01:03:20,205
It's a bit alien, isn't it?

950
01:03:21,285 --> 01:03:21,795
Catherine Ashton: Yeah.

951
01:03:22,115 --> 01:03:27,945
And if it's also hard to think about
that really personal time of, of

952
01:03:27,975 --> 01:03:33,775
death, maybe people could think about
something a little bit more removed

953
01:03:33,775 --> 01:03:39,205
and the funeral service, what, what did
they like or what didn't they like at

954
01:03:39,205 --> 01:03:41,125
a funeral service that they attended?

955
01:03:41,805 --> 01:03:45,005
And then perhaps, you know,
become a little bit more intimate

956
01:03:45,035 --> 01:03:46,725
with detail from there on in.

957
01:03:47,060 --> 01:03:52,450
Annie Whitlocke: Well, I know as soon as
I usually see the person and usually, you

958
01:03:52,450 --> 01:03:57,280
know, the first time that I meet them,
I will ask, you know, do you want, first

959
01:03:57,280 --> 01:03:59,320
of all, we, we agree on the language.

960
01:03:59,370 --> 01:04:02,940
And I said, are you okay
if I say death and dying?

961
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:06,770
And, uh, I've never had anyone say no.

962
01:04:06,820 --> 01:04:09,385
I said, because I, Because then
they say pass or when you're

963
01:04:09,395 --> 01:04:10,705
gone or something like this.

964
01:04:10,705 --> 01:04:14,025
And I, I said, we both need
to be on the same page.

965
01:04:14,235 --> 01:04:17,135
So if I say something,
we both know what I mean.

966
01:04:17,165 --> 01:04:20,045
And if you say something,
we both know what you mean.

967
01:04:20,075 --> 01:04:26,505
So then I will ask them, have they decided
if they want to be cremated or buried?

968
01:04:27,415 --> 01:04:28,615
It's not unusual.

969
01:04:29,535 --> 01:04:31,025
I have never had this conversation.

970
01:04:31,670 --> 01:04:32,380
Catherine Ashton: Yeah.

971
01:04:32,660 --> 01:04:36,480
Annie Whitlocke: And their people,
sometimes I will ask them, does so

972
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:38,480
and so want to be cremated or buried?

973
01:04:38,740 --> 01:04:40,290
Well, we've never had that talk.

974
01:04:40,950 --> 01:04:45,750
And I've seen some really unfortunate
situations when the person has died and

975
01:04:45,750 --> 01:04:50,160
their people, they don't know what they
wanted because it was never spoken.

976
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:54,270
We don't know what mom or dad
or my brother or my sister, we

977
01:04:54,270 --> 01:04:55,410
don't know what they wanted.

978
01:04:55,430 --> 01:04:59,820
So they've got to try and, and think of.

979
01:05:00,300 --> 01:05:03,190
of what that person would have
wanted and they feel what if

980
01:05:03,300 --> 01:05:04,700
it's not what they wanted.

981
01:05:05,490 --> 01:05:09,870
So this is why speaking
about it is is so important.

982
01:05:10,950 --> 01:05:12,170
Then funerals,

983
01:05:14,350 --> 01:05:17,760
we can have so many
different kinds of funerals.

984
01:05:17,780 --> 01:05:19,930
Now, Beth Lyons was great.

985
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:25,400
And when you when you when you gave
that interview just recently, because

986
01:05:25,410 --> 01:05:28,900
she is a master of home funerals.

987
01:05:29,795 --> 01:05:38,065
And beautiful, beautiful woman and I
have seen many beautiful home funerals

988
01:05:38,075 --> 01:05:45,015
and even hybrid that the body can come
home from their nursing home, from

989
01:05:45,075 --> 01:05:51,285
palliative care, from the coroners and
they can come home to have a vigil.

990
01:05:51,905 --> 01:05:58,555
So that all the important people to
that person come around and maybe they,

991
01:05:58,775 --> 01:06:01,005
they sleep in the same room with them.

992
01:06:01,285 --> 01:06:05,245
Maybe they have a party around them.

993
01:06:05,575 --> 01:06:10,955
Whatever that person would have liked,
then they could do that around them.

994
01:06:11,910 --> 01:06:17,430
And also, there's the benefit of
a living funeral, a living wake.

995
01:06:18,350 --> 01:06:24,010
Now, I've been involved in a couple of
these and they have been so precious

996
01:06:24,910 --> 01:06:31,490
that, uh, Sarah and I went to this lady's
one she had because I suggested to her

997
01:06:31,820 --> 01:06:34,100
a living wake and she loved the idea.

998
01:06:34,210 --> 01:06:37,400
Oh, that was, and that was something
that she could get into and her

999
01:06:37,410 --> 01:06:42,310
friends, you know, and she had the
most beautiful one, a five star one.

1000
01:06:42,510 --> 01:06:43,440
And then this other lady.

1001
01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:47,990
Lady, an elderly lady, and she
had just a really casual one,

1002
01:06:47,990 --> 01:06:49,610
but they were both beautiful.

1003
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:54,530
It's inviting people to come and to
share their stories with the person

1004
01:06:54,530 --> 01:07:01,930
who is going to die, and then everyone
interconnecting and understanding

1005
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:07,000
this, the warp and weft of all these
stories, how we all came to be here.

1006
01:07:07,695 --> 01:07:12,505
Catherine Ashton: Yeah, yeah, because
we, I think as we get older, you know,

1007
01:07:12,685 --> 01:07:18,535
I'm, I'm in my mid forties now and, and
really, we're at the stage now where my

1008
01:07:18,535 --> 01:07:24,440
son's about to have his 21st, but you
know, other than that, you know, it's What

1009
01:07:24,470 --> 01:07:26,560
50th, it'd be the next big celebration.

1010
01:07:26,940 --> 01:07:31,520
But I loved when I interviewed Jennifer
Argo recently that she, she makes

1011
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:35,720
sure that every single birthday is a
celebration and gets everyone together.

1012
01:07:35,850 --> 01:07:39,640
Because I think that we don't,
we don't get our people together

1013
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:43,510
often enough and have fun and
we don't make those connections

1014
01:07:43,510 --> 01:07:44,980
of how you all knew each other.

1015
01:07:45,260 --> 01:07:49,100
And my husband recently gave a talk
and it was really beautiful to actually

1016
01:07:49,110 --> 01:07:51,610
be in the room where I could see.

1017
01:07:51,825 --> 01:07:55,965
His, you know, people that he
went to, you know, VCA with and

1018
01:07:55,965 --> 01:07:58,045
then our old neighbors from St.

1019
01:07:58,045 --> 01:08:01,685
Kilda and then his aunt, uh, and cousins.

1020
01:08:01,685 --> 01:08:03,665
And, and that was really beautiful.

1021
01:08:03,705 --> 01:08:07,705
So I could only imagine how much
more powerful that would be.

1022
01:08:08,765 --> 01:08:11,445
When you are terminal and you
know that you're dying to actually

1023
01:08:11,445 --> 01:08:12,845
connect those people together.

1024
01:08:13,105 --> 01:08:15,795
Annie Whitlocke: Yes, some people
think oh, it sounds like it's

1025
01:08:15,795 --> 01:08:17,225
a bit like it's all about men.

1026
01:08:17,225 --> 01:08:20,045
I go no because it's about them.

1027
01:08:20,175 --> 01:08:23,675
How often do we tell our
friends and acquaintances?

1028
01:08:24,345 --> 01:08:27,975
You actually mean a lot to me
and that you're really precious

1029
01:08:27,975 --> 01:08:31,545
and I'm so glad that I'm in your
life and that you're in my life.

1030
01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:37,410
One of the things that you mentioned about
your child, have you spoken to your child?

1031
01:08:37,500 --> 01:08:39,230
So they're only 20, 21.

1032
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:43,090
What would they want if they had died?

1033
01:08:43,330 --> 01:08:45,170
Would they want to donate their organs?

1034
01:08:45,910 --> 01:08:49,010
Would they be, would they
want a cremation or a burial?

1035
01:08:49,190 --> 01:08:50,230
What would they want?

1036
01:08:50,250 --> 01:08:53,799
It's challenging, isn't it, to have
that conversation with your young child.

1037
01:08:53,810 --> 01:08:55,000
20 years old, still a young

1038
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:55,420
Catherine Ashton: child.

1039
01:08:55,790 --> 01:08:56,230
Yes.

1040
01:08:56,230 --> 01:08:58,650
I think, I think he'd prefer
conversations about death

1041
01:08:58,980 --> 01:09:00,570
rather than sex with his mother.

1042
01:09:02,370 --> 01:09:06,950
Um, but, um, but no, look, we've,
we've always had very, very open

1043
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:09,200
conversations about any topic.

1044
01:09:09,210 --> 01:09:15,720
And Ethan, uh, he traveled overseas
last year, uh, and to work and we made

1045
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:20,290
sure as soon as he was 18, that he had
a willing place and a power of attorney.

1046
01:09:20,290 --> 01:09:23,674
So if he was overseas, we
could provide him with that.

1047
01:09:23,705 --> 01:09:27,005
with financial support and access
and could do anything that he

1048
01:09:27,005 --> 01:09:30,545
needed on to be done on his
behalf while he was over there.

1049
01:09:30,895 --> 01:09:34,955
Uh, but he has a will and, and, and
I've had a will since the age of 18.

1050
01:09:34,995 --> 01:09:39,705
That was how I was raised, but
I'm, I'm realizing I am the

1051
01:09:39,705 --> 01:09:41,965
exception, not the standard.

1052
01:09:42,205 --> 01:09:42,515
Yes.

1053
01:09:42,785 --> 01:09:43,005
You

1054
01:09:43,005 --> 01:09:43,315
Annie Whitlocke: are the

1055
01:09:43,315 --> 01:09:43,955
Catherine Ashton: exception.

1056
01:09:44,395 --> 01:09:44,855
Annie Whitlocke: You are.

1057
01:09:45,425 --> 01:09:51,265
And also one of the things is
that when someone is heading

1058
01:09:51,265 --> 01:09:53,245
towards their dying time, they

1059
01:09:55,550 --> 01:09:56,030
Uh,

1060
01:09:58,210 --> 01:09:59,090
how can I say this?

1061
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:09,580
How many times do all of these people
come out of the woodwork when the

1062
01:10:09,580 --> 01:10:12,060
person is maybe got a week to live?

1063
01:10:12,100 --> 01:10:19,400
They're so weak and debilitated on
drugs and all these people start coming

1064
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:25,410
in saying goodbye and sitting with
them and many times, not all the time,

1065
01:10:25,690 --> 01:10:30,020
many times that person has said to
me afterwards, why do they come now?

1066
01:10:30,540 --> 01:10:32,710
I haven't seen them for months.

1067
01:10:33,290 --> 01:10:36,210
Why didn't they come when I was
able to hold a conversation?

1068
01:10:37,140 --> 01:10:41,950
Why now, when they're just weak and all
they can do is manage a little grin?

1069
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:46,850
Have you ever had anything
like that, Catherine?

1070
01:10:48,170 --> 01:10:52,130
Catherine Ashton: Yeah, I have and
I'd even take it a step further to the

1071
01:10:52,130 --> 01:10:59,010
point where, you know, for us, and this
is the whole catalyst of why I'm, I've

1072
01:10:59,190 --> 01:11:03,480
done the podcast and the business and,
you know, we had three friends die last

1073
01:11:03,480 --> 01:11:08,240
year and, and my husband's best friend
being the most significant of that.

1074
01:11:08,580 --> 01:11:14,160
But then, Again this year we had, you
know, someone who was a close friend.

1075
01:11:14,620 --> 01:11:19,190
Uh, we haven't seen him for a few years.

1076
01:11:19,530 --> 01:11:22,970
Uh, we got a phone call, Rod got a
phone call out of the blue to say that

1077
01:11:22,970 --> 01:11:25,680
he had been found dead in his house.

1078
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:31,010
Uh, because no one had heard from him
for a while and he's now at the coroner.

1079
01:11:31,250 --> 01:11:37,035
But, you know, it's It's not also waiting
for, waiting for people to be terminal.

1080
01:11:37,395 --> 01:11:41,935
It's just reaching out to people
at any stage and making sure that,

1081
01:11:42,015 --> 01:11:45,815
you know, because we assume that
they're just going about their normal

1082
01:11:45,815 --> 01:11:47,875
everyday life like they always are.

1083
01:11:48,365 --> 01:11:51,145
And then it's a real shock when you
find out that that's not the case,

1084
01:11:51,155 --> 01:11:55,705
that, you know, someone has died
and they're no longer just doing

1085
01:11:55,705 --> 01:11:57,460
what you Expect them to be doing

1086
01:11:58,010 --> 01:12:00,390
Annie Whitlocke: it's well said that
they're not doing what you expect

1087
01:12:00,390 --> 01:12:05,690
them to be doing Yes, and we do know
that we like to compartmentalize.

1088
01:12:05,690 --> 01:12:06,080
Okay.

1089
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:09,080
Well, they're over there They're doing
this and I'm doing this and I'm busy

1090
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:12,050
and things like that And then all of
a sudden you find that out and then

1091
01:12:12,220 --> 01:12:16,000
did you have a question yourself that
I wish we kind of visited them more

1092
01:12:17,955 --> 01:12:20,385
Catherine Ashton: Yeah, look,
I, I, I did to a degree.

1093
01:12:20,465 --> 01:12:25,645
The relationship was, was sort of more
sitting with my husband and we were

1094
01:12:25,665 --> 01:12:30,435
maybe closer at another period of time
in his life, but yeah, you kind of,

1095
01:12:32,785 --> 01:12:40,060
I recently text everyone in my phone
who I've, I've got in my phone and let

1096
01:12:40,060 --> 01:12:45,250
them know what I was doing and said,
look, I'd, I'd love for you to still be

1097
01:12:45,530 --> 01:12:49,140
in contact with me, you know, give me
a call sometime or something like that.

1098
01:12:49,730 --> 01:12:50,450
And.

1099
01:12:51,115 --> 01:12:56,205
I'm really happy I've done that because
you never know what other people

1100
01:12:56,205 --> 01:12:57,765
might be doing at the other end.

1101
01:12:58,205 --> 01:13:01,495
You know, they may not be living the life
that you think that they were living.

1102
01:13:01,655 --> 01:13:02,375
Annie Whitlocke: Exactly.

1103
01:13:03,445 --> 01:13:03,865
Um.

1104
01:13:04,375 --> 01:13:07,425
Sometimes you may not even find out
because not everyone is going to

1105
01:13:07,425 --> 01:13:10,125
let you know because maybe they're
not comfortable because that's

1106
01:13:10,135 --> 01:13:11,295
the kind of life that I'm living.

1107
01:13:11,295 --> 01:13:13,305
I don't want anyone to know about that.

1108
01:13:14,095 --> 01:13:14,655
Catherine Ashton: Yeah.

1109
01:13:14,905 --> 01:13:15,245
Yeah.

1110
01:13:15,655 --> 01:13:20,385
And also, like, since starting the
business that, you know, I had a, an

1111
01:13:20,395 --> 01:13:25,945
old colleague reach out to me who had
been diagnosed as being terminal, uh,

1112
01:13:25,945 --> 01:13:30,945
and, and she asked for support and, and,
you know, you just can never assume.

1113
01:13:31,635 --> 01:13:34,785
That you know how someone is
going on the other side, you know?

1114
01:13:36,135 --> 01:13:40,055
Annie Whitlocke: So how do you think
someone would be able to find out?

1115
01:13:41,805 --> 01:13:46,165
Catherine Ashton: I think staying in
contact, you know, and, you know, it

1116
01:13:46,165 --> 01:13:52,035
doesn't have to be a milestone occasion
or anything along that line and, and you

1117
01:13:52,035 --> 01:13:55,435
know how sometimes, you know, you get
busy with life and kids and all the rest

1118
01:13:55,435 --> 01:13:59,684
of it and, and, you know, you lose touch,
but I don't think that they're, you know,

1119
01:14:00,135 --> 01:14:02,545
should be shame associated with that.

1120
01:14:02,585 --> 01:14:06,785
I think that, you know, just bloody reach
out and, and, you know, cause it's so

1121
01:14:06,785 --> 01:14:09,005
much better that you actually did do that.

1122
01:14:09,315 --> 01:14:13,385
And, you know, I've, I've actually only
two weeks ago had dinner, uh, with a

1123
01:14:13,385 --> 01:14:16,725
girlfriend who, you know, we both ended
up having children at the same time,

1124
01:14:17,145 --> 01:14:20,585
you know, 20 years later, you know,
we're, we're back having dinner again.

1125
01:14:20,955 --> 01:14:22,975
And I'm so happy that we did because.

1126
01:14:23,470 --> 01:14:28,230
you know, you remind yourself about,
I suppose, part of your life as

1127
01:14:28,230 --> 01:14:34,260
well and about of you, of that who
you were, what, what ignited in you

1128
01:14:34,690 --> 01:14:36,170
that you love about that person.

1129
01:14:36,170 --> 01:14:40,070
So I think that it's a bit of
rediscovering yourself as well, you know,

1130
01:14:40,180 --> 01:14:43,270
so I think that that's good to reach out.

1131
01:14:44,105 --> 01:14:46,485
Annie Whitlocke: Yeah, I think
it is, yeah, to, to rediscover,

1132
01:14:46,825 --> 01:14:48,285
that's right, I like that.

1133
01:14:50,185 --> 01:14:53,045
Catherine Ashton: And Annie, have
you got any other thoughts that you'd

1134
01:14:53,045 --> 01:14:54,945
like to share with our listeners?

1135
01:14:55,575 --> 01:14:57,145
Well, for the other

1136
01:14:57,155 --> 01:15:00,915
Annie Whitlocke: Death Duelers, and
also for anyone who's interested in, uh,

1137
01:15:00,965 --> 01:15:05,315
getting a Death, to ask the Death Dueler,
do they work with another Death Dueler?

1138
01:15:05,845 --> 01:15:11,805
So from my experience, you know, if
you've got, uh, two, three, or four

1139
01:15:11,805 --> 01:15:14,705
people that you're working with, and.

1140
01:15:15,010 --> 01:15:22,220
Perhaps, uh, some of them start, uh,
they're, uh, declined at a similar time.

1141
01:15:22,570 --> 01:15:25,930
You really need, this is from my
own experience, to have another

1142
01:15:25,930 --> 01:15:31,850
death doula similar minded that
you can both help one another.

1143
01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:35,950
Now, I think on the weekend
you met Barb Ferguson.

1144
01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:40,110
Catherine Ashton: Yes, yes, the
other, the other weekend with,

1145
01:15:40,140 --> 01:15:41,520
uh, Denise Love's workshop.

1146
01:15:42,070 --> 01:15:46,850
Annie Whitlocke: So, Barb and I worked
together as a bit of a tag team and,

1147
01:15:47,190 --> 01:15:53,190
uh, so, uh, so after I've had, uh,
three spine operations, so after my last

1148
01:15:53,190 --> 01:15:57,080
one, I can no longer do the washing of
the body and the dressing of the body.

1149
01:15:57,820 --> 01:16:00,080
Uh, Barb will do that.

1150
01:16:00,900 --> 01:16:05,590
Also sometimes, you know, I can't get
there at a certain time, so I will

1151
01:16:05,630 --> 01:16:07,820
ask Barb and she will cover for me.

1152
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:10,340
Or if she can't do it,
then I will cover for her.

1153
01:16:10,450 --> 01:16:10,829
So, Barb will do it.

1154
01:16:11,510 --> 01:16:11,980
And.

1155
01:16:12,545 --> 01:16:19,045
So then there is that, I think it's really
important to have that seamless, uh,

1156
01:16:19,095 --> 01:16:21,015
transfer from one person to the other.

1157
01:16:21,025 --> 01:16:23,445
So we will meet people sometimes together.

1158
01:16:23,855 --> 01:16:28,015
A couple of weeks ago we both
met, uh, this woman together,

1159
01:16:28,355 --> 01:16:29,615
uh, with her daughter.

1160
01:16:29,655 --> 01:16:32,985
And so, and we both, and so
Barb would say her thing.

1161
01:16:33,215 --> 01:16:36,525
I would say my thing about what
the woman was speaking about.

1162
01:16:36,885 --> 01:16:39,575
And they could feel comfortable
that, yeah, they're going to be

1163
01:16:39,575 --> 01:16:43,235
held, they're going to be held in.

1164
01:16:44,645 --> 01:16:49,415
I've always been a bit suspicious about
this word love, but they are going to be

1165
01:16:49,415 --> 01:16:55,025
held in love because they're going to be
safe, they're going to be so respected.

1166
01:16:55,325 --> 01:17:02,035
So to have a one or two that you work with
is really good, highly recommend that.

1167
01:17:02,590 --> 01:17:06,740
Get your advanced care directive, even
if you, it's a bit daunting when people

1168
01:17:06,750 --> 01:17:13,090
start it, but just to start opening up
the conversations once a week, once a

1169
01:17:13,110 --> 01:17:17,760
month, have a, have a round table with
your friends, your family, your neighbors,

1170
01:17:17,780 --> 01:17:22,350
and say, okay And this is when you'll
usually find out about the things that

1171
01:17:22,380 --> 01:17:24,790
went pear shaped in other people's lives.

1172
01:17:25,080 --> 01:17:27,900
And you're really going to go,
oh yeah, I can relate to that.

1173
01:17:27,950 --> 01:17:28,840
I don't want that either.

1174
01:17:29,110 --> 01:17:30,070
So I'm going to write that down.

1175
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:36,380
I think you, there is, I've, I
have prepared for my own death.

1176
01:17:37,100 --> 01:17:41,000
So when you come in the, the, the
front door, on the right hand side,

1177
01:17:41,020 --> 01:17:42,840
I've got for medical emergency.

1178
01:17:43,360 --> 01:17:44,140
And, uh, A4.

1179
01:17:45,090 --> 01:17:47,320
And then I've got my
advanced care directive.

1180
01:17:47,670 --> 01:17:52,870
I've got my body donor, you know,
form, and I've also written a

1181
01:17:52,870 --> 01:17:57,830
letter for the body donor when they
take my body, if I am accepted.

1182
01:17:58,410 --> 01:18:01,830
And it's got my will, it's got
everything, it's got all my animals,

1183
01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:06,240
it's got the people to contact if
this happens, contact that person.

1184
01:18:06,580 --> 01:18:08,970
It's got my executives,
everything is there.

1185
01:18:09,365 --> 01:18:15,345
Doesn't look pretty, I must
admit, um, for interior decorator,

1186
01:18:15,575 --> 01:18:16,905
but it's very functional.

1187
01:18:18,055 --> 01:18:19,015
Catherine Ashton: I've seen it many times.

1188
01:18:19,025 --> 01:18:20,225
And very important.

1189
01:18:20,325 --> 01:18:21,195
Annie Whitlocke: Very important.

1190
01:18:21,235 --> 01:18:21,775
So many times.

1191
01:18:21,815 --> 01:18:23,605
Yes, I've got an advanced care directive.

1192
01:18:23,655 --> 01:18:25,365
It's rolled up in the freezer.

1193
01:18:25,365 --> 01:18:28,384
And I said, I don't think
that's a good place for it.

1194
01:18:28,745 --> 01:18:30,605
Catherine Ashton: No, no, not at all.

1195
01:18:30,725 --> 01:18:33,755
Annie Whitlocke: Which is why Lisa,
who wrote the bottom draw book, that's

1196
01:18:33,755 --> 01:18:35,165
why she called it the Bottom Draw book.

1197
01:18:35,165 --> 01:18:38,105
You know, most of all our in
really important information

1198
01:18:38,110 --> 01:18:38,945
is in that bottom draw.

1199
01:18:38,945 --> 01:18:41,195
Get it out, bring it out to the open

1200
01:18:42,185 --> 01:18:42,965
.
Catherine Ashton: Yeah, totally.

1201
01:18:42,965 --> 01:18:43,835
Exactly.

1202
01:18:44,045 --> 01:18:48,275
And, and that's the whole concept of,
of sort of the app that I'm, I'm working

1203
01:18:48,275 --> 01:18:51,155
on is, is just to, to, to get it out.

1204
01:18:51,205 --> 01:18:53,945
document it and, uh, and to
share it with loved ones.

1205
01:18:54,265 --> 01:18:56,955
So we're, uh, we're all aware
and we don't get caught in the

1206
01:18:56,955 --> 01:18:58,465
situation we were last year.

1207
01:18:59,095 --> 01:19:04,025
And, and just, just on that, Annie,
I just noted that, you know, what

1208
01:19:04,025 --> 01:19:08,935
was in that pile of papers then
was a letter to your body donor.

1209
01:19:09,155 --> 01:19:09,895
Ah, yes.

1210
01:19:09,965 --> 01:19:12,905
You can't just drop that
and then not explain that.

1211
01:19:14,335 --> 01:19:17,075
Annie Whitlocke: My mom
actually, uh, donated.

1212
01:19:17,255 --> 01:19:26,105
Her body and I when they had the memorial
at Melbourne University, I saw these

1213
01:19:26,105 --> 01:19:30,645
young medical students standing up and
most of them said this was the first

1214
01:19:30,685 --> 01:19:36,365
time that I had actually seen a dead
body and you know, and I'm so grateful.

1215
01:19:36,635 --> 01:19:42,255
That this person gave me permission
to use their body for medical science.

1216
01:19:43,635 --> 01:19:49,765
And I'm thinking, how can it be that
a young adult, so many of them, have

1217
01:19:49,795 --> 01:19:51,905
never seen a dead person before?

1218
01:19:52,385 --> 01:19:55,995
So I wanted to let them
know a bit about me.

1219
01:19:56,785 --> 01:19:59,975
So I wrote this, this, this letter.

1220
01:20:00,145 --> 01:20:04,065
And I hope that it will go
with, it's instructed, they will

1221
01:20:04,065 --> 01:20:05,515
have to take it with my body.

1222
01:20:06,205 --> 01:20:06,805
Oh, that's great.

1223
01:20:06,805 --> 01:20:07,105
Thank you.

1224
01:20:07,825 --> 01:20:13,735
And so that they will read it and
I've been very open in it and,

1225
01:20:13,795 --> 01:20:19,925
uh, very, uh, vulnerable and,
uh, and I, and I was very honest.

1226
01:20:20,595 --> 01:20:28,270
This is a life that I have led and now
I, uh, I offer my body to you and may

1227
01:20:28,280 --> 01:20:34,430
it serve some purpose so then that I
can still benefit others from my death.

1228
01:20:36,670 --> 01:20:40,500
Catherine Ashton: Oh Annie, do you
mind if I get a copy of that letter

1229
01:20:40,500 --> 01:20:43,820
and pop it in the show notes so our
listeners can perhaps have a read?

1230
01:20:44,010 --> 01:20:45,390
Please, please.

1231
01:20:45,410 --> 01:20:46,810
Oh, that'd be lovely.

1232
01:20:48,290 --> 01:20:51,390
Annie, I can't thank you
enough for your time today.

1233
01:20:51,390 --> 01:20:52,930
It's been an absolute pleasure.

1234
01:20:53,970 --> 01:20:55,160
Annie Whitlocke: Thank you, Catherine.

1235
01:20:55,650 --> 01:20:58,330
And, uh, and lovely to meet Bandit.

1236
01:21:04,180 --> 01:21:07,600
Catherine Ashton: We hope you enjoyed
today's episode of Don't Be Caught Dead.

1237
01:21:07,910 --> 01:21:09,500
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1238
01:21:10,430 --> 01:21:13,820
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1239
01:21:13,820 --> 01:21:16,350
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1240
01:21:16,795 --> 01:21:19,195
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1241
01:21:19,335 --> 01:21:22,105
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1242
01:21:22,295 --> 01:21:26,425
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1243
01:21:26,435 --> 01:21:28,155
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1244
01:21:28,485 --> 01:21:29,845
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1245
01:21:29,985 --> 01:21:33,455
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1246
01:21:33,755 --> 01:21:35,335
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1247
01:21:35,785 --> 01:21:37,625
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1248
01:21:37,685 --> 01:21:41,055
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