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You know, the thing that I found really
funny was that you'd think that the

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main reason people donate their bodies
is because they want to help science,

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which is true in a sense, but also
some people really don't like funerals.

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And in particular, they don't want
a particular person at the funeral.

5
00:00:17,759 --> 00:00:21,420< ... Read More

1
00:00:02,690 --> 00:00:05,659
You know, the thing that I found really
funny was that you'd think that the

2
00:00:05,660 --> 00:00:09,170
main reason people donate their bodies
is because they want to help science,

3
00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:14,820
which is true in a sense, but also
some people really don't like funerals.

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00:00:14,820 --> 00:00:17,739
And in particular, they don't want
a particular person at the funeral.

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So they would rather get
dissected than have a person.

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at the funeral.

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I mean, I think the main thing that I
find incredible though, is that a lot

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of people donate their body because
they actually want to be dissected.

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I mean, they're fine with it.

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00:00:33,254 --> 00:00:37,944
Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a
podcast encouraging open conversations

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00:00:37,944 --> 00:00:40,345
about dying and the death of a loved one.

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00:00:40,915 --> 00:00:44,155
I'm your host, Catherine Ashton,
founder of Critical Info.

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00:00:44,695 --> 00:00:48,345
And I'm helping to bring your
stories of death back to life.

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00:00:48,905 --> 00:00:53,114
Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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00:00:56,455 --> 00:00:59,714
Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations

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00:00:59,764 --> 00:01:03,535
and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.

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00:01:03,824 --> 00:01:05,924
We pay our respects to their Elders.

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00:01:05,945 --> 00:01:09,985
Past, present, and emerging, and
extend that respect to all Aboriginal

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00:01:10,005 --> 00:01:13,535
and Torres Strait Islander and First
Nation peoples around the globe.

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Today I'm speaking with Jackie Dent.

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Jackie is the author of The Great Dead
Body Teachers, a book exploring whole body

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donation and the world of human anatomy.

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Which was long listed for the 2023
Walkley Book Award and the Mark

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and Evett Moran NIB Literary Award.

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She is an independent journalist,
communications specialist and

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researcher, and she's currently
completing her PhD in International

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Relations at the University of Sydney.

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Jacqui's career spans major media
outlets, international humanitarian

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work, and event curation.

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She has had the opportunity to live and
work across Australia, the Philippines,

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and multiple global locations.

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Thanks for being with us, Jacqui.

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00:01:59,574 --> 00:02:00,524
Hello, Catherine.

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00:02:01,135 --> 00:02:06,005
Now, Jacqui, I had the very exciting
opportunity to hear you speak at the

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00:02:06,255 --> 00:02:11,185
Sydney Death and Dying Festival last
year, and I was fascinated that you

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wrote a book on whole body donation.

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It is such a secret topic.

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So, how did you get started?

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00:02:18,650 --> 00:02:21,790
You know, it's interesting what happens
with journalism, how sometimes an idea

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00:02:21,790 --> 00:02:23,270
is just sitting right in front of you.

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00:02:23,329 --> 00:02:26,700
So, my grandparents
donated their whole bodies.

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My grandmother, Julie, donated her body
in 1969, and my grandfather, Julie,

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yes, his name was Julie, in 1980.

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And they went to the
University of Queensland.

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So, it was always this kind
of thing in the family, but it

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was never really a big deal.

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All my parents were sort of
like, you know, whatever, like

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they donated their bodies.

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And admittedly, I always found
it like a really weird thing.

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Like as a kid, I just always thought,
Oh, you know, and I'd imagine what

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it was like to get dissected sort of
six years ago now, or just before the

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coronavirus hit mom and dad and I had
a drink with their next door neighbor.

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And the young girl of the
house said to me, Oh, Jackie,

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you know, you're a journalist.

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You'd probably be
interested in where I work.

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I work at this medical surgical facility.

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And we, you know, the students are
cutting up bodies, but they don't

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really, you know, do full dissection.

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They get body parts shipped in
from America, and they don't

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really do full body dissection.

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I was like, Oh, why are the
body parts being flown in?

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And she said, I don't know.

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And so mom and I kind of, you know, walked
home and I said, that's pretty weird.

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That's kind of sad if people aren't
donating their bodies anymore.

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And she said, yeah, it is actually.

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And so literally I went
home, got on the internet.

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I started researching and about half
an hour later was instantly struck

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by the fact that there was just no
information about whole body donation.

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Like if you went to the website for
a medical school, it was very vague.

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Well, too vague for my liking.

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And I guess I just started wondering
like what happened to their bodies?

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Like what happens, what happens
and what's with the body parts.

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And, you know, basically
it just started from there.

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I just went on this massive odyssey to
find out what happened to their bodies.

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And what is whole body donation?

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Yeah.

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See, that's an excellent question because
a lot of people get confused between

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whole body donation and organ donation.

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So.

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Whole body donation is, usually
you would have signed up with

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the university beforehand.

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So you have to fill out
paperwork with the university.

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It's always good to have your next of kin
aware that this is what you want to do.

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And then you die, you're dead.

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And within 24 hours, your whole
body is sent to a university.

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It's very different to organ donation
where people will be, unfortunately,

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have been in some sort of accident
or something, and then parts of their

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body are given to another person.

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So it's very important to
distinguish between the two.

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Whole body donation is your whole dead
body goes to a university, and it goes on

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a, you know, the beginning of a wonderful
journey, depending on your point of view.

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And so how does one go about this?

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Like, has it always been the case?

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Like, why do we have it?

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Why is the whole body donation important?

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Well, I mean, anatomy is sort of
the basis of medicine, really.

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Like, you know, when you go to
the doctor, you sit in front

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of them and when a surgeon cuts
you open, they've got your body.

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So, you know, medical science needs.

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Bodies, they need to look inside.

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They need to know how you work.

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And so, I mean, this is what happened
in researching my book, is that

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anatomy is an extraordinary old
science and it has gone through so many

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phases and you know, a lot of it is
attached to the politics of the body.

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You'd think that.

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You've got a dead body, you cut it
open and you have a look inside,

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and no, this is not the case.

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Through time and space, the way that
humans have approached the corpse,

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especially for scientific purposes,
has had so many different meanings.

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And so what you find with contemporary
anatomy, which was the thing that was very

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fascinating to me, was that It was very
hard to find out actually what happens.

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00:05:54,330 --> 00:05:57,560
I mean, the University of Queensland
didn't really want to talk to me.

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The University of Sydney
didn't want to talk to me.

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00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:02,780
But the University of Melbourne
actually was really, really helpful.

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And the University of New
South Wales was great.

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00:06:04,830 --> 00:06:07,400
So it really depended on the
anatomists that I contacted.

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It is a very, very hidden world,
so that's why people probably don't

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really know that much about it.

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But the other thing too is that
people only really find out about

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body donation through someone
they know directly doing it.

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00:06:20,075 --> 00:06:22,484
So it tends to become a family tradition.

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It's only through really knowing
about it that people engage with it.

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So you know, in terms of what
happens to your body these days,

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every medical school is different.

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But, you know, you would be chopped up.

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You would be cut up.

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There's all these different
pathways that you can go through

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at different universities.

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00:06:38,330 --> 00:06:42,570
And ultimately, you know,
your body will be used by the

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scientists, the physiotherapists,
and the surgeons of the future.

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00:06:46,150 --> 00:06:47,780
I suppose that makes total sense.

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00:06:47,849 --> 00:06:53,470
The surgeons that operate on you to do
anything from taking your appendix out

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00:06:53,470 --> 00:06:57,650
to, I suppose, a knee reconstruction, I
suppose they need to have a bit of a test

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00:06:57,650 --> 00:07:00,610
on that before they use Human subjects.

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00:07:00,630 --> 00:07:04,330
So I suppose it does make sense
that they would need to use

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00:07:04,350 --> 00:07:05,890
the human body to practice on.

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00:07:05,910 --> 00:07:09,420
Well, yeah, I mean, it's interesting
because there's a real shift, you know,

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dissection programs are very expensive.

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00:07:11,500 --> 00:07:16,420
And so medical schools now are
increasingly using technology, you know,

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in the book I went to a international
anatomy conference in London and it was

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00:07:21,300 --> 00:07:26,205
pretty amazing the software that was
on display and The technology, but most

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00:07:26,205 --> 00:07:30,105
anatomists that you speak to would argue
that we really need the human body.

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00:07:30,105 --> 00:07:32,355
Like we really need a dead body to study.

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00:07:32,355 --> 00:07:37,715
So across Australia, every weekend, there
are surgeons practicing on body parts.

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00:07:37,724 --> 00:07:41,974
So I went to a head and neck
workshop for one weekend, which was

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00:07:41,974 --> 00:07:43,564
very confronting, but it was also.

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00:07:44,060 --> 00:07:47,810
incredible as a way for me to
realize, you know, the importance of

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00:07:47,810 --> 00:07:53,250
dissection, what surgeons can learn by
practicing on bodies, but also just the

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00:07:53,250 --> 00:07:54,969
shifts that have happened over time.

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00:07:55,099 --> 00:07:58,969
If you go to a doctor who's sort
of maybe 65 and over, they're

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00:07:58,969 --> 00:08:00,740
more than likely to have spent.

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00:08:00,985 --> 00:08:02,094
Hours and hours.

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00:08:02,094 --> 00:08:05,585
They would have spent one year
dissecting a full human body.

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00:08:05,585 --> 00:08:07,745
They would have spent second
year dissecting a head.

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00:08:07,755 --> 00:08:11,195
They know their anatomy like they have
an extraordinary knowledge of anatomy.

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00:08:11,195 --> 00:08:14,775
Whereas these days, the medical students
really just don't have the dissection

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00:08:14,775 --> 00:08:19,115
experience that they once had to the
point now that the Royal College of

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00:08:19,115 --> 00:08:24,005
Surgeons is sort of like calling on
for more anatomy to be reintroduced

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00:08:24,015 --> 00:08:28,255
to the medical program because, you
know, anatomical knowledge is waning.

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00:08:28,605 --> 00:08:29,045
And,

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00:08:29,335 --> 00:08:32,674
is it because there's less
bodies readily available?

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00:08:32,674 --> 00:08:37,255
Is that why there's been a decline
in anatomy and using the bodies

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00:08:37,255 --> 00:08:38,964
to, I suppose, train our surgeons?

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00:08:39,005 --> 00:08:42,645
No, there's sort of, in Australia,
we have a kind of a steady supply of

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00:08:42,664 --> 00:08:44,774
bodies, but well, that was another thing.

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00:08:44,774 --> 00:08:48,104
It's very hard to find out how
many donations happen each year.

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00:08:48,104 --> 00:08:50,055
It's not a very easy thing to find out.

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00:08:50,599 --> 00:08:52,589
Basically, no, they have enough bodies.

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00:08:52,589 --> 00:08:57,719
The problem is, is that dissection takes a
long time and it's a very intense process.

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00:08:57,749 --> 00:09:00,909
You know, if you go to YouTube
now, you can watch dissection.

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00:09:00,939 --> 00:09:03,019
There's lots and lots
of dissection videos.

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00:09:03,029 --> 00:09:07,689
There's dissection influences, and you
can see that if you have a full dead body,

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00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:13,020
first, the person needs to be embalmed or
in some instances, they'll just be frozen.

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00:09:13,390 --> 00:09:17,800
But, you know, an embalmed body,
there's a lot of, um, fat and fascia

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00:09:17,830 --> 00:09:19,760
and it is kind of quite fascinating.

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00:09:19,770 --> 00:09:23,089
You know, it's a complicated
process and it actually really

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00:09:23,089 --> 00:09:24,150
requires a lot of skill.

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00:09:24,150 --> 00:09:25,499
It's not an easy thing to do.

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00:09:25,530 --> 00:09:29,510
So there's just not that room in the
medical program anymore for students

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00:09:29,519 --> 00:09:31,640
to spend days on end dissecting.

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00:09:31,964 --> 00:09:37,214
So what does that mean for us when
we compare the surgeons that are

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00:09:37,275 --> 00:09:43,354
practicing nowadays to where anatomy
was a main focus and you were saying

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00:09:43,375 --> 00:09:46,954
that they made it something that you
would practice on for a year or so?

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00:09:47,265 --> 00:09:52,234
Look, I think just things change and
surgeons these days have to, you know, do.

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00:09:52,449 --> 00:09:54,810
anatomical courses, like they do practice.

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00:09:54,819 --> 00:09:58,010
So if you're a doctor and then you
want to become a specialist in a

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00:09:58,010 --> 00:10:01,640
certain field, you will have to have a
certain level of anatomical knowledge.

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00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,560
And what happens is that some, you
know, doctors that want to become

189
00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:09,659
specialists will work in an anatomy
lab for a year and, you know, teach

190
00:10:09,689 --> 00:10:11,780
and pick up their skills that way.

191
00:10:11,780 --> 00:10:13,079
So it's quite diverse.

192
00:10:13,109 --> 00:10:15,670
I mean, it's very fascinating
that in the olden days.

193
00:10:15,810 --> 00:10:18,930
It's the technicians, the people that
worked in the laboratories, cutting up

194
00:10:18,949 --> 00:10:21,689
the dead, the professional, you know,
the people that had the real skill

195
00:10:21,689 --> 00:10:24,359
at dissection, they were often men.

196
00:10:24,359 --> 00:10:27,509
But you'll find these days that it's
mainly young women and women who

197
00:10:27,519 --> 00:10:29,169
are the technicians and dissectors.

198
00:10:29,169 --> 00:10:31,329
So I think that's an interesting
thing that, you know, you've

199
00:10:31,329 --> 00:10:34,709
got women that are the midwives
bringing babies into the world.

200
00:10:34,709 --> 00:10:38,149
And then you've got all these women in
the anatomy lab that are kind of like.

201
00:10:38,494 --> 00:10:41,415
You know, they're at the end
cutting people up for science.

202
00:10:41,515 --> 00:10:43,564
And why do you think that shift is?

203
00:10:43,655 --> 00:10:43,785
I don't know.

204
00:10:43,785 --> 00:10:45,344
That's a very interesting question.

205
00:10:45,364 --> 00:10:49,214
You know, I've spoken to some young
women, I've spoken to the women about it.

206
00:10:49,234 --> 00:10:51,364
You know, it's not a very
well paid job, actually.

207
00:10:51,414 --> 00:10:54,974
So women often tend to be
in underpaid jobs, like, you

208
00:10:54,974 --> 00:10:56,265
know, not paid as well as men.

209
00:10:56,554 --> 00:10:57,245
I'm not sure.

210
00:10:57,275 --> 00:11:00,464
I would probably need to look into that a
bit more, but it's very interesting that.

211
00:11:00,689 --> 00:11:04,950
anatomy, the technician side of
it is quite female dominated.

212
00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,580
And what were some of the other
things that you found that were quite

213
00:11:08,580 --> 00:11:13,020
surprising as you, you started to embark
on this entire world that you'd known

214
00:11:13,030 --> 00:11:14,709
nothing about when you first started?

215
00:11:14,909 --> 00:11:15,930
Oh, where to start?

216
00:11:15,930 --> 00:11:18,239
I mean, I know, I'm sure
there's quite a lot.

217
00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:20,229
There's so much that I have to ask you.

218
00:11:20,229 --> 00:11:21,719
So, I mean, it's quite endless.

219
00:11:21,719 --> 00:11:24,770
I think the one thing is I thought
at first that I would just be

220
00:11:24,950 --> 00:11:26,789
studying dissection, right?

221
00:11:26,789 --> 00:11:29,589
I thought I would just Talk to
some anatomists and in the book,

222
00:11:29,599 --> 00:11:33,439
I tracked down older surgeons who
were studying at the University

223
00:11:33,439 --> 00:11:37,329
of Queensland at the time to get a
sense of, you know, what it was like.

224
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And, you know, maybe one of
them had actually dissected my

225
00:11:39,489 --> 00:11:40,819
grandmother or my grandfather.

226
00:11:41,189 --> 00:11:45,709
So I thought I'd just be studying
dissection, but no, you know, it

227
00:11:45,709 --> 00:11:49,910
moved into the world of embalming,
which in itself is this whole other.

228
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Extraordinary realm.

229
00:11:51,829 --> 00:11:54,850
And then it also moved into
the idea of anatomical museums.

230
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Like did my grandparents end up one of
their body parts in an anatomical museum,

231
00:11:59,629 --> 00:12:01,920
or there's the world of anatomical art.

232
00:12:02,009 --> 00:12:04,290
My grandparents, were they sketched?

233
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Were they drawn by someone?

234
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,250
And then there were so
many other kind of themes.

235
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Around science and the soul, you
know, what was it like for the young

236
00:12:13,454 --> 00:12:15,615
students and the anatomists to dissect?

237
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Did they have ideas about the soul?

238
00:12:18,064 --> 00:12:19,885
Was it confronting for them?

239
00:12:19,964 --> 00:12:23,985
You know, it really was a world of rabbit
holes and I kept falling into rabbit

240
00:12:24,004 --> 00:12:28,754
holes and just being so interested that
yeah I just found it a very incredible

241
00:12:28,754 --> 00:12:32,224
world actually and I mean to be honest
now this is gonna sound a bit silly

242
00:12:32,225 --> 00:12:36,285
Celine Dion of me, but we really
are quite beautiful on the inside.

243
00:12:36,285 --> 00:12:40,805
And I think one thing that I found very
striking is that a lot of the anatomists

244
00:12:40,845 --> 00:12:46,225
that I interviewed really love dissecting,
they kind of get lost in it and they just

245
00:12:46,225 --> 00:12:48,115
talk about how beautiful the body is.

246
00:12:48,145 --> 00:12:50,564
A lot of them will
specialize in a body part.

247
00:12:51,004 --> 00:12:54,805
So someone might be really
into the feet and hands.

248
00:12:55,315 --> 00:12:57,535
Someone else might be
really into the thorax.

249
00:12:57,535 --> 00:12:59,095
Other people are into the brain.

250
00:12:59,205 --> 00:13:01,835
So I just found that
really curious as well.

251
00:13:01,875 --> 00:13:05,065
You know, not only kind of the history
side and all the different elements of

252
00:13:05,065 --> 00:13:06,735
anatomy, but also how the anatomists.

253
00:13:06,750 --> 00:13:09,424
I think it's important to understand what
people felt about what they were doing,

254
00:13:09,424 --> 00:13:10,379
but also what's happening internationally.

255
00:13:10,460 --> 00:13:12,230
I mean, Australia is gold standard.

256
00:13:12,370 --> 00:13:16,290
We only accept donated bodies, but in
most parts of the world, you still have

257
00:13:16,290 --> 00:13:21,210
a situation where people who are poor
or they die in a mental hospital will

258
00:13:21,210 --> 00:13:25,399
be dissected, which I think is a very
political and complex issue for the

259
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,360
international anatomical community.

260
00:13:27,595 --> 00:13:31,685
And there was someone that you met
when you went to the UK and attended

261
00:13:31,685 --> 00:13:35,855
that conference that had actually
done some mapping of the different

262
00:13:35,855 --> 00:13:37,344
body donors throughout the world.

263
00:13:37,344 --> 00:13:37,755
Was that right?

264
00:13:38,105 --> 00:13:38,385
Yes.

265
00:13:38,425 --> 00:13:42,614
So that was Dr. Andreas Winkelmann,
who is a really, really incredible

266
00:13:42,615 --> 00:13:46,404
character, actually, and has done a
lot of really significant work, kind

267
00:13:46,405 --> 00:13:48,285
of in the more ethical anatomical.

268
00:13:50,135 --> 00:13:54,694
And yeah, he was looking at basically
where medical schools were getting

269
00:13:54,694 --> 00:13:59,475
their bodies from and sort of did find
this kind of quite sad statistics that,

270
00:13:59,635 --> 00:14:04,064
you know, in most parts of the world,
people didn't have body donor programs.

271
00:14:04,425 --> 00:14:05,694
I mean, I recently.

272
00:14:05,715 --> 00:14:07,355
I went to the Philippines.

273
00:14:07,405 --> 00:14:10,255
I grew up there as a child and I
guess since I've written the book I've

274
00:14:10,255 --> 00:14:12,255
become quite interested in anatomy.

275
00:14:12,255 --> 00:14:16,635
And so I went and visited the anatomists
there and sadly they don't even know

276
00:14:16,655 --> 00:14:18,634
the Philippines has a huge population.

277
00:14:18,925 --> 00:14:22,775
It's a very Catholic country and people
just are not donating their bodies.

278
00:14:22,815 --> 00:14:24,144
They have no bodies.

279
00:14:24,684 --> 00:14:28,504
So what they do is they use
bodies from people that have died.

280
00:14:28,885 --> 00:14:32,265
In a mental hospital and their
bodies are unclaimed and then

281
00:14:32,265 --> 00:14:35,455
they're sent for dissection, which
I personally feel is quite sad.

282
00:14:35,465 --> 00:14:39,385
Some people might have different views
on that, but they also use plastinates.

283
00:14:39,475 --> 00:14:43,545
So this is another big area of
anatomy where, because most parts of

284
00:14:43,545 --> 00:14:45,154
the world, this is what Andres is.

285
00:14:45,545 --> 00:14:50,185
Work highlighted because most parts of
the world don't have body donor programs.

286
00:14:50,785 --> 00:14:55,664
They will ship bodies in So in the Arab
world, they will bring bodies in from

287
00:14:55,664 --> 00:15:00,874
the u. s. The u. s. Has quite a large
body Brokerage system like so people sell

288
00:15:00,874 --> 00:15:05,525
their bodies to science and body parts
and so for example in Turkey I spoke to

289
00:15:05,525 --> 00:15:07,175
an anatomist there who didn't want him.

290
00:15:07,234 --> 00:15:11,465
He didn't ship bodies, but he says
they cost around 15, 000 and then

291
00:15:11,465 --> 00:15:13,410
you also have The plastinates.

292
00:15:13,450 --> 00:15:17,240
So they're, I don't know if you've ever
been to that body worlds exhibition.

293
00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:18,620
No, but I have read a lot

294
00:15:18,620 --> 00:15:18,980
about it.

295
00:15:19,230 --> 00:15:19,560
Yeah.

296
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:23,900
So Gunter von Hagen's really
revolutionized embalming and

297
00:15:23,919 --> 00:15:26,899
some of your listeners might
know these, you know, elaborate

298
00:15:27,190 --> 00:15:29,260
human bodies in particular poses.

299
00:15:29,810 --> 00:15:31,820
And so he really revolutionized that.

300
00:15:31,820 --> 00:15:33,910
So a lot of people will buy plastinates.

301
00:15:34,469 --> 00:15:38,240
Unfortunately, you know, when I went
to the Philippines, the plasmids

302
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:42,150
that they were using were bodies
from executed criminals in China.

303
00:15:42,650 --> 00:15:47,290
And so yeah, there's still, you know,
anatomy still has some kind of, in parts

304
00:15:47,290 --> 00:15:51,840
of the world, it is still kind of a pretty
edgy and ethically kind of complex area.

305
00:15:51,939 --> 00:15:53,150
It certainly sounds like it.

306
00:15:53,170 --> 00:15:53,949
And tell

307
00:15:54,099 --> 00:15:56,729
me a little bit more
about the history of it.

308
00:15:56,729 --> 00:16:01,829
How is it, how has anatomy
changed over the period of time?

309
00:16:02,140 --> 00:16:05,010
Perhaps in Australia, and even
in context to the world, Jackie.

310
00:16:05,210 --> 00:16:10,030
Well, I mean, people have been
dissecting, you know, well, the

311
00:16:10,059 --> 00:16:14,739
earliest known dissector is a man
called Herophilus, and he lived sort

312
00:16:14,740 --> 00:16:18,639
of in ancient Alexandria around 300 BC.

313
00:16:18,719 --> 00:16:21,220
And it's very interesting, he was a Greek.

314
00:16:21,495 --> 00:16:26,725
Man who moved to Alexandria in Egypt,
and it kind of makes sense that this is

315
00:16:26,725 --> 00:16:31,275
where you have sort of these first records
in the West of dissection, because I

316
00:16:31,275 --> 00:16:35,594
guess the Egyptians had a tradition of
embalming, so they were opening up bodies.

317
00:16:35,594 --> 00:16:37,504
There wasn't the taboo around bodies.

318
00:16:37,945 --> 00:16:40,645
If you go back a lot earlier,
there is an Indian anatomist

319
00:16:40,645 --> 00:16:43,225
and dissector called Susruta.

320
00:16:43,225 --> 00:16:43,875
I think I got that.

321
00:16:44,460 --> 00:16:45,140
Name correct.

322
00:16:45,610 --> 00:16:49,360
He's known for doing the world's
first nose jobs, which I would love

323
00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,400
to see in ancient nose surgery.

324
00:16:51,450 --> 00:16:56,040
But because there were all these taboos
around touching the dead, he came

325
00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:00,189
up with this kind of crafty method
where he would put a body in a cage,

326
00:17:00,250 --> 00:17:03,280
in like sort of a wooden cage, and
he would leave the body in a river.

327
00:17:03,964 --> 00:17:07,065
And let all the skin come off
and that way he could look in

328
00:17:07,065 --> 00:17:08,454
and see what was happening.

329
00:17:08,964 --> 00:17:13,994
He was also able to dissect toddlers
because in Hinduism, it wasn't a taboo

330
00:17:13,994 --> 00:17:16,194
to dissect anyone under the age of two.

331
00:17:16,615 --> 00:17:21,084
So he was dissecting little
kids and people who were in

332
00:17:21,084 --> 00:17:22,495
these sort of bamboo cages.

333
00:17:22,694 --> 00:17:25,325
From there, you know,
it's a mysterious road.

334
00:17:25,355 --> 00:17:29,545
You know, they think that dissection was
made dormant and then it traveled over

335
00:17:29,605 --> 00:17:35,040
to You have Avicenna, who was an Iranian
scholar who people believe was dissecting.

336
00:17:35,170 --> 00:17:38,250
And then sort of over the last
thousand years, we've had very

337
00:17:38,250 --> 00:17:40,720
different approaches to anatomy.

338
00:17:40,770 --> 00:17:44,420
Probably one of my favorite dissection
stories, a very fascinating one.

339
00:17:44,510 --> 00:17:48,239
It's called a holy anatomy and
it happened around the 1300s.

340
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,039
I think if I'm correct, and it was
a woman called Chiara de Montefalco.

341
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,120
And she was a nun, she was an abbess.

342
00:17:54,530 --> 00:17:59,739
In Montefalco in Italy, and she died
and she was very, very religious.

343
00:17:59,739 --> 00:18:01,899
But in the lead up to her
death, she kept sort of saying,

344
00:18:01,899 --> 00:18:03,370
I've got Jesus in my heart.

345
00:18:03,419 --> 00:18:04,600
I had Jesus in my heart.

346
00:18:05,050 --> 00:18:10,429
So once she died, the nuns decided to
cut her open and see what was inside.

347
00:18:10,579 --> 00:18:14,629
And sure enough, they found all
these signs of God in her heart.

348
00:18:14,659 --> 00:18:16,350
They found like gallstones.

349
00:18:16,350 --> 00:18:17,510
They found three of them.

350
00:18:17,550 --> 00:18:19,429
So they thought that was
a sign of the Trinity.

351
00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:21,530
And so it became kind of like.

352
00:18:21,730 --> 00:18:25,480
Sent this sort of ripples through the
community and people came to, because

353
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,880
they thought that, you know, she was a
saint and the reason we know so much about

354
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:34,950
this holy anatomy from this time is that
there was a move to have her canonized.

355
00:18:35,540 --> 00:18:39,410
And so after she died, there was an
enormous inquiry where 400 people.

356
00:18:40,510 --> 00:18:41,530
gave submissions.

357
00:18:41,530 --> 00:18:46,080
And so you have all these very early
records of this holy anatomy, which

358
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,170
I just find an extraordinary story
because also it was conducted by women.

359
00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:50,810
Yeah.

360
00:18:50,870 --> 00:18:53,400
I mean, the other thing too, is
that even though there's all these

361
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,870
ideas that there are taboos around
dissection, I think that probably people.

362
00:18:58,085 --> 00:19:01,715
We're just dissecting because you'll be
amazed to know this, but there's a kind

363
00:19:01,715 --> 00:19:07,534
of a busy feminist medieval dissection
scholarship scene where you have women

364
00:19:07,534 --> 00:19:10,624
who are looking at female dissection.

365
00:19:10,655 --> 00:19:14,344
And there was a period in Italy
where you had aristocratic women

366
00:19:14,455 --> 00:19:17,835
who would leave in their will
saying, can you please dissect me?

367
00:19:17,835 --> 00:19:21,395
Um, you know, I haven't been well,
and I want to find out what happened

368
00:19:21,395 --> 00:19:22,475
so that my daughter doesn't get.

369
00:19:22,625 --> 00:19:22,925
sick.

370
00:19:22,995 --> 00:19:25,955
And also women died so much in childbirth.

371
00:19:25,965 --> 00:19:29,195
So you imagine, you know, if you
had a dead woman there, the doctors

372
00:19:29,195 --> 00:19:31,835
would maybe have a look, cut the
woman open to see what might've

373
00:19:31,835 --> 00:19:33,675
happened, what the obstruction was.

374
00:19:33,905 --> 00:19:36,164
A really important thing
to know about anatomy.

375
00:19:36,164 --> 00:19:40,215
It's almost like the equivalent
of, I guess, Einstein or Copernicus

376
00:19:40,274 --> 00:19:42,335
is a man named Andreas Vesalius.

377
00:19:42,900 --> 00:19:48,690
And he published a book in 1543, which
basically changed the history of science.

378
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:53,050
It's a huge book, huge drawings
of the human body, very

379
00:19:53,050 --> 00:19:54,589
dramatic, beautiful drawings.

380
00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:59,689
And he was the first anatomist
to actually cut open the dead.

381
00:19:59,710 --> 00:20:02,649
Up until then, there were
all these rituals around.

382
00:20:02,970 --> 00:20:06,200
How you cut up the dead, they
also referred to a very old

383
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:07,909
book by a man called Galen.

384
00:20:07,940 --> 00:20:11,450
I won't go down that rabbit hole, but
it's important to know about Vesalius.

385
00:20:11,450 --> 00:20:16,289
And then over time, since then, I
suppose dissection and art had a

386
00:20:16,290 --> 00:20:20,180
close relationship because the only
way a medical student could learn.

387
00:20:20,435 --> 00:20:22,745
Would be through pictures and drawings.

388
00:20:22,754 --> 00:20:26,165
So, you know, you've got Leonardo
da Vinci's work, you have a lot of

389
00:20:26,165 --> 00:20:30,824
incredibly beautiful work, you know,
over a 500 year period up until probably

390
00:20:30,824 --> 00:20:35,284
in the last a hundred years where I
would say quite sadly, the anatomy lab

391
00:20:35,284 --> 00:20:37,204
has been completely closed to artists.

392
00:20:37,514 --> 00:20:40,824
And it's now become sort of quite
a sealed off scientific space.

393
00:20:41,125 --> 00:20:46,114
That's interesting because it has always
been one of those classic roles that

394
00:20:46,114 --> 00:20:51,554
there has always been generally an artist
associated with the different areas of

395
00:20:51,594 --> 00:20:54,324
anatomy drawing or facial reconstruction.

396
00:20:54,324 --> 00:20:58,105
I know that Darryl Lindsay from the
famous Lindsay family, when he was at the

397
00:20:58,105 --> 00:21:02,225
Slade School of Art, he was responsible
for actually drawing the facial

398
00:21:02,225 --> 00:21:04,365
reconstruction of what was going on after.

399
00:21:04,524 --> 00:21:06,185
Uh, people came back from the war.

400
00:21:06,455 --> 00:21:09,395
So it really has sort of
been hand in hand, hasn't it?

401
00:21:09,415 --> 00:21:14,814
And I love the two women that you
spoke to in relation to their research

402
00:21:14,864 --> 00:21:19,734
into how they have been looking at
sculpture and how that has been telling

403
00:21:19,734 --> 00:21:22,095
a story about anatomy through time.

404
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,409
Yeah, one of the people I profiled is
a British artist called Eleanor Crook.

405
00:21:26,419 --> 00:21:31,580
She's a painter, sculptor and drawer who
actually spends time in anatomy labs.

406
00:21:31,590 --> 00:21:35,050
She's one of the few people in
the world who is still allowed in

407
00:21:35,050 --> 00:21:36,699
and she actually teaches artists.

408
00:21:37,254 --> 00:21:41,465
Globally, there are a handful of
medical programs that allow, you know,

409
00:21:41,504 --> 00:21:45,804
artists in to draw, but generally it's
sort of become quite a taboo area.

410
00:21:45,865 --> 00:21:49,274
I also interviewed a contemporary
medical illustrator called Marie

411
00:21:49,294 --> 00:21:54,834
Daunheimer, who has an incredible story
about, you know, from maybe 30 years

412
00:21:54,834 --> 00:21:59,004
ago, being a young medical illustrator
and how she would go into and watch

413
00:21:59,004 --> 00:22:01,844
surgeries, how she would draw surgeries.

414
00:22:01,905 --> 00:22:03,225
Until now, though, where.

415
00:22:03,620 --> 00:22:06,130
You know, she has quite an in
depth knowledge of anatomy but

416
00:22:06,130 --> 00:22:09,710
these days there's only really a
handful of artists that are still

417
00:22:09,710 --> 00:22:12,090
allowed access to anatomy labs.

418
00:22:12,150 --> 00:22:17,040
And one of the things that fascinated
me about how one of the sculptures had

419
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:22,530
depicted the internal organs and the
intestines in one of the sculptures

420
00:22:22,570 --> 00:22:28,230
as being vertical instead of being
horizontal and I believe that the

421
00:22:28,270 --> 00:22:33,199
idea was the fact that they may have
seen that person, perhaps, you know,

422
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,560
with it cut open at some stage and can
you explain a little bit of that one?

423
00:22:36,570 --> 00:22:38,010
Because I thought that
that was fascinating.

424
00:22:38,090 --> 00:22:38,580
Oh, okay.

425
00:22:38,580 --> 00:22:38,629
Yeah.

426
00:22:38,780 --> 00:22:40,699
Actually, that's, this is another area.

427
00:22:40,700 --> 00:22:44,300
This was a forensic anatomist and
the death historian actually who were

428
00:22:44,379 --> 00:22:46,950
researching, they're called transi tombs.

429
00:22:47,020 --> 00:22:49,939
So they're these sort of strange
sculptures that are littered

430
00:22:49,939 --> 00:22:52,180
around Europe of very rich people.

431
00:22:52,180 --> 00:22:52,540
Yeah.

432
00:22:52,625 --> 00:22:56,275
Who are kind of emaciated
and look really yucky.

433
00:22:56,315 --> 00:22:58,655
And it's a really bizarre story.

434
00:22:58,725 --> 00:23:01,654
So yeah, they were looking at
these sculptures and some of them

435
00:23:01,654 --> 00:23:05,075
are quite old and they started
thinking, well, this is pre Vesalius.

436
00:23:05,095 --> 00:23:07,115
You know how I mentioned Vesalius before.

437
00:23:07,385 --> 00:23:08,684
And so some of these are quite old.

438
00:23:08,684 --> 00:23:11,695
And so they're thinking that
whoever sculpted these figures had

439
00:23:11,885 --> 00:23:14,345
dissected or had seen dead bodies.

440
00:23:14,715 --> 00:23:18,045
And yes, they think that
one of the tombs in England.

441
00:23:18,455 --> 00:23:21,405
Is probably, maybe they'd
been to an execution and maybe

442
00:23:21,405 --> 00:23:22,665
seen someone disemboweled.

443
00:23:23,014 --> 00:23:24,784
I mean, it is, it's quite incredible.

444
00:23:24,784 --> 00:23:29,454
Like, why would a very rich
person want to have a tomb of

445
00:23:29,454 --> 00:23:31,365
themselves looking so horrible?

446
00:23:31,755 --> 00:23:35,525
And sort of the argument is,
is it's connected to purgatory.

447
00:23:35,555 --> 00:23:38,765
And that if you and I were walking
through the church and we saw this

448
00:23:38,825 --> 00:23:43,544
tomb, this person would be in purgatory
and so we would pray for them.

449
00:23:43,615 --> 00:23:46,885
And then that way they would
eventually make it to heaven.

450
00:23:47,274 --> 00:23:51,044
So they served a very, you know,
important spiritual purpose, but

451
00:23:51,064 --> 00:23:55,584
for contemporary scholars, they also
have sort of anatomical interest.

452
00:23:55,925 --> 00:24:00,535
And on a recent trip to Italy, my husband
got to the stage where he asked us not

453
00:24:00,545 --> 00:24:05,584
to go into any more churches because
of the amount of churches in Italy that

454
00:24:05,585 --> 00:24:12,025
we found that had, you know, a deceased
saint or possible saint in the catacombs

455
00:24:12,065 --> 00:24:14,535
and people are still praying to them now.

456
00:24:14,805 --> 00:24:16,424
You know, the body is there.

457
00:24:16,734 --> 00:24:19,764
There's even ossuaries that
we've attended overseas.

458
00:24:19,795 --> 00:24:24,685
How much has religion and
anatomy played a part.

459
00:24:24,874 --> 00:24:25,955
Are they friend or foe?

460
00:24:26,384 --> 00:24:29,774
Well, that's actually, yeah, I
mean, that's a fascinating question.

461
00:24:29,774 --> 00:24:32,504
I would say they're probably both.

462
00:24:32,534 --> 00:24:36,385
And I mean, in terms of anatomy now
in most parts of the world, I would

463
00:24:36,385 --> 00:24:40,225
say that to the anatomists, it's a
foe because of religious beliefs.

464
00:24:40,225 --> 00:24:44,225
They can't, you know, all throughout
Africa, anatomists can't, you know,

465
00:24:44,225 --> 00:24:48,045
it's not easy to get access to bodies
all throughout China, the Middle East.

466
00:24:48,515 --> 00:24:49,735
I mean, it is really.

467
00:24:50,210 --> 00:24:54,270
Important that, you know, of course you
have to respect these religious traditions

468
00:24:54,270 --> 00:24:56,950
and they play a big part in body donation.

469
00:24:57,330 --> 00:25:00,830
The one thing that I found really
incredible was that people had done some

470
00:25:00,830 --> 00:25:06,010
research with medical students about the
idea of the soul and also with anatomists

471
00:25:06,129 --> 00:25:07,680
and how they thought about the dead.

472
00:25:08,135 --> 00:25:11,285
And there are different parts
of the bodies that people

473
00:25:11,305 --> 00:25:12,985
will react differently to.

474
00:25:13,045 --> 00:25:15,905
Students have a lot of weird
feelings around the brain.

475
00:25:16,365 --> 00:25:19,694
They'll feel particularly, you
know, intense about the heart.

476
00:25:20,225 --> 00:25:24,664
And so these are kind of very powerful
cultural ideas, but I also think there

477
00:25:24,665 --> 00:25:26,574
is sort of an element of the spirit.

478
00:25:26,905 --> 00:25:30,075
I mean, it's interesting, one of the
anatomists I profiled in the book,

479
00:25:30,175 --> 00:25:32,085
Sven Kunkel, had a very funny story.

480
00:25:32,085 --> 00:25:35,385
Well, someone might not find it funny, but
I said, you know, did you ever have any?

481
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:36,460
Spiritual feelings.

482
00:25:36,460 --> 00:25:39,400
And he said, look, I've worked
in anatomy labs for years.

483
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,670
I've, you know, I've never seen
anything like, but he said that

484
00:25:43,670 --> 00:25:47,610
one time one of his friends lay
on an anatomy table in Germany.

485
00:25:47,629 --> 00:25:51,680
This is years ago when they were younger
and a poor cleaning lady walked through

486
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:56,659
at night and he put his hand out and I
mean the poor woman, I mean you would

487
00:25:56,659 --> 00:25:58,050
have had a heart attack on the spot.

488
00:25:58,535 --> 00:25:59,175
I mean, I did.

489
00:25:59,205 --> 00:26:01,945
I did actually collect a few
anatomical ghost stories.

490
00:26:01,955 --> 00:26:05,185
Like, I think that, you know, to
be in anatomy lab at night would

491
00:26:05,185 --> 00:26:07,515
definitely conjure certain feelings.

492
00:26:07,515 --> 00:26:11,474
And even during the day, I imagine,
you know, apparently, particularly

493
00:26:11,474 --> 00:26:14,944
if the students for the first time,
when they go into an anatomy lab,

494
00:26:14,945 --> 00:26:17,435
it can be an intense experience.

495
00:26:17,475 --> 00:26:22,285
But yeah, without a doubt, religion and
the body, of course, yes, friend and foe.

496
00:26:22,445 --> 00:26:25,715
When you're talking about, I was
wondering if you can recall in the

497
00:26:25,715 --> 00:26:29,564
book, you mentioned a process that
you were taken through before you

498
00:26:29,565 --> 00:26:31,245
went into your first anatomy lab.

499
00:26:31,285 --> 00:26:34,594
You refer to it, there's an acronym
or something like that, that you were

500
00:26:34,595 --> 00:26:38,725
actually to visualize what was in the
lab before you actually walked into it.

501
00:26:38,735 --> 00:26:42,545
So it helped prepare you mentally
for what you were about to see.

502
00:26:42,805 --> 00:26:44,115
Do you remember what that acronym is?

503
00:26:44,345 --> 00:26:48,075
No, but it's actually, so it was
Quentin Fogg, who's a lovely anatomist

504
00:26:48,075 --> 00:26:49,495
at the University of Melbourne.

505
00:26:49,515 --> 00:26:53,265
And he studied all around the world,
but he was working in Scotland.

506
00:26:53,275 --> 00:26:58,114
And yeah, he used certain techniques to
help people prepare for the situation

507
00:26:58,114 --> 00:27:02,445
of going into anatomy lab, you know,
explaining to people, especially for

508
00:27:02,474 --> 00:27:05,785
first year medical students, what
they would see, how it would be.

509
00:27:06,755 --> 00:27:09,165
I mean, I never really
had that experience.

510
00:27:09,185 --> 00:27:12,865
I mean, I did go into an anatomy lab,
but it's a very closed off space.

511
00:27:12,865 --> 00:27:16,955
I mean, to be honest, I was pretty
disappointed that after four years

512
00:27:16,955 --> 00:27:20,105
of researching this, you know,
kind of seriously, it was still

513
00:27:20,245 --> 00:27:24,234
very, very, very hard for me to
get access to an anatomy lab.

514
00:27:24,255 --> 00:27:27,525
I eventually did get into a
surgical workshop, but, you

515
00:27:27,525 --> 00:27:31,195
know, some universities wanted to
consult with their lawyers first.

516
00:27:31,225 --> 00:27:33,755
You know, no wonder all of
us wonder what happens there.

517
00:27:33,755 --> 00:27:36,055
It is a very, very closed off space.

518
00:27:36,170 --> 00:27:39,150
And, you know, I think for the
medical students that go in there

519
00:27:39,190 --> 00:27:42,570
for the first time, yeah, it
would definitely be confronting.

520
00:27:42,570 --> 00:27:45,829
And I think that's why you do have
these sort of silly stories, you

521
00:27:45,829 --> 00:27:48,370
know, that kids do silly things.

522
00:27:48,419 --> 00:27:52,159
And I mean, these days, if you
did one silly thing, if you took

523
00:27:52,159 --> 00:27:55,139
a photo, you would be kicked
out of your medical degree.

524
00:27:55,190 --> 00:27:58,550
The universities are so hyper
conscious and sensitive about what

525
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,830
happens because they need bodies.

526
00:28:00,970 --> 00:28:02,750
They don't want people to stop donating.

527
00:28:02,990 --> 00:28:07,640
Can we talk about perhaps that change
in perception, that shift from the

528
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:12,440
donors were just someone that was a
body to work on and then the shift that

529
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,490
you see now where there is actually
memorials that are dedicated to the

530
00:28:17,490 --> 00:28:22,420
body donors and there's ceremonies that
are actually undertaken on an annual

531
00:28:22,420 --> 00:28:25,030
basis to recognize their contribution.

532
00:28:25,050 --> 00:28:28,090
Can you talk us through that
sort of evolution that you've

533
00:28:28,090 --> 00:28:29,609
seen through time for that?

534
00:28:29,835 --> 00:28:32,495
Oh, yeah, it's really,
really fascinating, actually.

535
00:28:32,535 --> 00:28:36,715
I mean, in the contemporary setting,
since about the 60s, medical schools

536
00:28:36,725 --> 00:28:39,284
have started holding ceremonies.

537
00:28:39,314 --> 00:28:44,545
And the reason why, for example, the
University of Queensland did start

538
00:28:44,545 --> 00:28:48,154
holding ceremonies is that because
People would donate a body, and then

539
00:28:48,154 --> 00:28:51,294
the family would just never hear
anything, they're like, what's happening?

540
00:28:51,784 --> 00:28:55,164
And so, over time, the universities
have realized that they need to

541
00:28:55,164 --> 00:28:56,904
communicate more with the families.

542
00:28:56,914 --> 00:29:00,574
So, it doesn't happen everywhere, but
in Australia, for example, there'll

543
00:29:00,574 --> 00:29:04,984
be a ceremony, the families will
come, the medical students will speak.

544
00:29:05,379 --> 00:29:08,530
And in some instances now around the
world, they're building memorials.

545
00:29:08,540 --> 00:29:13,709
So if you go to Rookwood cemetery in
Sydney, there's the body donor memorial.

546
00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:16,830
There, if you go to the university
of Melbourne, there's a, quite a

547
00:29:16,830 --> 00:29:20,990
beautiful sculpture that was built by
a woman whose mother donated her body.

548
00:29:21,220 --> 00:29:22,249
So you have these rituals.

549
00:29:22,250 --> 00:29:25,220
And so it's kind of known as
the humane anatomy movement.

550
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,970
And particularly in parts of Asia, there's
a really fascinating medical school in

551
00:29:29,980 --> 00:29:32,550
Taiwan, where the students actually know.

552
00:29:33,290 --> 00:29:34,250
Who the donor is.

553
00:29:34,260 --> 00:29:35,629
They know everything about them.

554
00:29:35,639 --> 00:29:37,540
The person's pictures on the wall.

555
00:29:37,850 --> 00:29:41,889
They go and meet the family and talk
about, you know, who this person is.

556
00:29:42,190 --> 00:29:44,980
And it's this sort of view
that it's their first patient.

557
00:29:45,129 --> 00:29:47,129
I mean, every medical
school is really different.

558
00:29:47,139 --> 00:29:50,139
Some of them will tell their
students the name of their body.

559
00:29:50,139 --> 00:29:54,005
Like, you know, someone's You know,
this was Jackie, this is Catherine.

560
00:29:54,485 --> 00:29:57,855
Other medical schools
don't really do that.

561
00:29:57,945 --> 00:30:00,715
Some medical schools will
tell, you know, the students

562
00:30:00,715 --> 00:30:02,215
will know what they died from.

563
00:30:02,285 --> 00:30:04,545
For other students, it's
a process of discovery.

564
00:30:05,015 --> 00:30:09,035
It doesn't happen a lot, I think,
especially as well because students

565
00:30:09,035 --> 00:30:11,065
don't really dissect like they used to.

566
00:30:11,065 --> 00:30:13,055
Nowadays, they'll get
what's called a prosection.

567
00:30:13,575 --> 00:30:18,975
So I'll get like an arm or a leg, so they
don't really have that intense engagement.

568
00:30:18,985 --> 00:30:24,145
But yeah, there's definitely anatomists
that take the ethics and how people

569
00:30:24,145 --> 00:30:26,485
relate to the corpse quite seriously.

570
00:30:26,765 --> 00:30:27,755
Or I don't know.

571
00:30:27,755 --> 00:30:29,035
It's really hard to
know what to call them.

572
00:30:29,035 --> 00:30:29,875
Body donor, donor.

573
00:30:30,575 --> 00:30:32,029
I mean, they've got all sorts of names.

574
00:30:32,370 --> 00:30:36,920
And that's, I think, that's what strikes
me throughout this entire book is that

575
00:30:36,950 --> 00:30:42,640
it's just really inconsistent, you
know, there's no overarching, you know,

576
00:30:42,660 --> 00:30:45,930
policy, procedure, terminology used.

577
00:30:46,100 --> 00:30:50,110
It seems to be according to the
university or the institution.

578
00:30:50,375 --> 00:30:52,845
In which you're speaking
with, would that be correct?

579
00:30:52,855 --> 00:30:52,865
Oh

580
00:30:52,965 --> 00:30:53,475
my gosh.

581
00:30:53,475 --> 00:30:56,495
They're like kind of, you know,
governed into the inch of their life.

582
00:30:56,495 --> 00:30:58,405
But I think there's
just cultural practices.

583
00:30:58,415 --> 00:31:00,155
Like they've all got different equipment.

584
00:31:00,165 --> 00:31:02,475
They might have different embalming fluid.

585
00:31:02,525 --> 00:31:04,915
They might offer different
dissection programs.

586
00:31:04,925 --> 00:31:07,455
So that's why I'm just
cautious about generalizing.

587
00:31:07,455 --> 00:31:10,855
So if there's people that are thinking
of donating their body, it really

588
00:31:10,855 --> 00:31:12,875
depends which city you live in.

589
00:31:12,875 --> 00:31:15,965
Like, unfortunately, if you live
in regional Australia, like it's.

590
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:17,700
It's not as easy to donate your body.

591
00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:19,190
In fact, it's probably impossible.

592
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,610
And so it's worthwhile if you are
thinking of donating your body

593
00:31:22,650 --> 00:31:25,590
to ring up the university and try
and find out some information.

594
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,750
The other thing too, is that they
might not always accept your body.

595
00:31:29,330 --> 00:31:31,320
It's very interesting working on the book.

596
00:31:31,350 --> 00:31:33,590
When the book came out, I
got quite a few messages.

597
00:31:33,865 --> 00:31:36,985
It's from people saying that their
mother had signed up, but the

598
00:31:36,985 --> 00:31:38,475
university didn't take the body.

599
00:31:38,505 --> 00:31:41,495
So sometimes the university
actually might have too many bodies.

600
00:31:41,915 --> 00:31:43,755
It might be closed over Christmas.

601
00:31:43,845 --> 00:31:47,155
So it's not like you're
always guaranteed to go there.

602
00:31:47,385 --> 00:31:51,835
Because I'm assuming it would come down
to logistics because there would be a

603
00:31:51,835 --> 00:31:55,845
timeframe after death that you would
have to be embalmed, I suppose, for

604
00:31:55,845 --> 00:31:57,875
the tissue to be in the best condition.

605
00:31:58,205 --> 00:32:01,470
And that is a. That's a real
logistical sort of issue.

606
00:32:01,490 --> 00:32:05,810
If you're in a regional area, if it's
during the holidays, those sorts of

607
00:32:05,810 --> 00:32:09,910
considerations, and what are some
historically, some of the other reasons

608
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,680
why you found that have been the motivator
for people to donate their bodies?

609
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,860
Yeah, this is a really great area,
actually, you know, why would you do it?

610
00:32:17,910 --> 00:32:20,130
I mean, I personally.

611
00:32:20,205 --> 00:32:23,445
Wouldn't donate my body, but it's not
because of what I found out, but it's also

612
00:32:23,505 --> 00:32:27,465
because of my age, like on a, on average,
people really start thinking about

613
00:32:27,955 --> 00:32:33,095
donation in their sixties and seventies,
but yeah, so there's a scientist called

614
00:32:33,105 --> 00:32:35,045
Dr. Sophie Bolt in the Netherlands.

615
00:32:35,045 --> 00:32:38,575
Who's one of the few people in the
world that studied whole body donors.

616
00:32:38,615 --> 00:32:42,315
And it's really interesting that there's
bits of research around the world.

617
00:32:42,335 --> 00:32:44,695
But you know, the thing that
I found really funny was that.

618
00:32:45,050 --> 00:32:48,340
You'd think that the main reason people
donate their bodies is because they want

619
00:32:48,340 --> 00:32:53,950
to help science, which is obviously true
in a sense, but also there's all these

620
00:32:53,950 --> 00:32:58,580
other different reasons, including the
fact that some people really don't like

621
00:32:58,580 --> 00:33:02,100
funerals, and in particular they don't
want a particular person at the funeral.

622
00:33:03,050 --> 00:33:07,370
They would rather get dissected
than have a person at the funeral.

623
00:33:07,490 --> 00:33:07,990
Wow.

624
00:33:08,210 --> 00:33:12,770
Another kind of fascinating areas is
that a lot of people, donors think that

625
00:33:12,770 --> 00:33:14,680
their body's particularly interesting.

626
00:33:14,690 --> 00:33:19,210
So they may have had some condition
or, and it was funny when I was

627
00:33:19,210 --> 00:33:22,380
working on the book, people would say,
Oh yeah, I'd be a good body donor.

628
00:33:22,380 --> 00:33:26,130
I had this like kind of metal plate
put in my shoulder or, I mean, I

629
00:33:26,140 --> 00:33:29,690
think the main thing that I find
incredible though, is that a lot

630
00:33:29,690 --> 00:33:32,350
of people donate their body because
they actually want to be dissected.

631
00:33:32,540 --> 00:33:33,760
I mean, they're fine with it.

632
00:33:33,770 --> 00:33:35,310
They don't have a big deal.

633
00:33:35,310 --> 00:33:35,950
I mean, I don't know.

634
00:33:35,970 --> 00:33:36,860
What do you think, Catherine?

635
00:33:36,860 --> 00:33:38,350
Would you donate your body?

636
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:39,940
I don't know, Jackie.

637
00:33:39,970 --> 00:33:44,940
I read your book over the Christmas
period and I was tossing up that question

638
00:33:44,940 --> 00:33:46,520
the entire time I was reading it.

639
00:33:46,530 --> 00:33:48,990
And I, I would go between.

640
00:33:49,350 --> 00:33:52,560
Yes, I don't have a problem because my
best friend who's a doctor has always

641
00:33:52,570 --> 00:33:53,980
said that she would donate her body.

642
00:33:54,390 --> 00:33:55,520
That's what she wants to do.

643
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:56,450
That's without a doubt.

644
00:33:56,470 --> 00:34:00,280
And she's always had an admiration for
science and wants to her body to be used

645
00:34:00,290 --> 00:34:02,040
for scientific purposes and training.

646
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:03,549
I don't know.

647
00:34:03,550 --> 00:34:07,820
I, I don't know whether I could,
and I think it's more because

648
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,390
I don't know whether my family
would be comfortable with it.

649
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,980
So it's a conversation that I'll
need to have with them because at

650
00:34:12,980 --> 00:34:14,950
the end of the day, I'm not going
to be doing anything with it.

651
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,590
So I suppose if it can be used for
someone else to actually learn something.

652
00:34:18,825 --> 00:34:19,695
They can go for it.

653
00:34:20,085 --> 00:34:21,965
As long as my family's
comfortable, I'd say.

654
00:34:22,215 --> 00:34:22,555
Yeah.

655
00:34:22,705 --> 00:34:24,565
And I think that's a really
important point, actually, because

656
00:34:24,565 --> 00:34:26,735
it's quite easy to sign up, right?

657
00:34:26,735 --> 00:34:29,615
Because you die and then
you get cut up, right?

658
00:34:29,885 --> 00:34:30,195
Yeah.

659
00:34:30,285 --> 00:34:32,855
But I think it's for
the people left behind.

660
00:34:32,925 --> 00:34:36,575
You know, it can be very, like, you can
imagine what's happening to their body.

661
00:34:36,575 --> 00:34:40,355
And in fact, one anatomist told
me that People do want to watch

662
00:34:40,365 --> 00:34:43,725
dissections and they want to find
out what happened to their loved one.

663
00:34:43,725 --> 00:34:47,355
They want to be there and you know,
under the law, they're not allowed to.

664
00:34:47,405 --> 00:34:50,055
I personally think, you know, if
you want to watch your relative

665
00:34:50,065 --> 00:34:53,465
be dissected, I'm not sure why
the system doesn't want you to.

666
00:34:53,965 --> 00:34:57,375
Some might disagree with that, but
yeah, I think it is kind of not

667
00:34:57,375 --> 00:34:58,875
an easy thing for the survivors.

668
00:34:58,875 --> 00:35:01,885
But then again, I've spoken at
a few body donor memorials now

669
00:35:01,885 --> 00:35:05,195
because let's face it, there's not
many dissection writers out there.

670
00:35:05,255 --> 00:35:06,795
How many would there be, Jackie?

671
00:35:07,405 --> 00:35:08,145
Yeah, probably.

672
00:35:08,455 --> 00:35:08,915
A handful.

673
00:35:09,365 --> 00:35:14,335
As you can see, like it's a huge, huge
genre academics and dissection memoirs.

674
00:35:14,425 --> 00:35:19,945
And so, you know, speaking to some
family members, you know, it had really

675
00:35:19,945 --> 00:35:21,535
different meanings for some of them.

676
00:35:21,555 --> 00:35:26,775
And for some of them, I think it actually
really helped them with the grief process.

677
00:35:26,855 --> 00:35:28,685
Uh, for others, I'm not sure.

678
00:35:28,685 --> 00:35:31,955
I think they were probably a
bit still in a state of shock.

679
00:35:31,985 --> 00:35:35,405
It's hard to tell, but the body
donor memorial services were really

680
00:35:35,445 --> 00:35:37,125
interesting insight for me about.

681
00:35:37,620 --> 00:35:41,220
I got the feeling that a lot of people
afterwards were inspired to donate

682
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,330
because you know, just seeing the
impact that it had on students and the

683
00:35:45,330 --> 00:35:47,300
medical school and how helpful it is.

684
00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:51,090
I don't have a view on whether
you should donate or not.

685
00:35:51,670 --> 00:35:53,360
It's really is a personal decision.

686
00:35:54,070 --> 00:35:55,470
Yeah, it really is.

687
00:35:55,970 --> 00:35:59,940
And how much do you think that, you
know, because body donation is one

688
00:35:59,940 --> 00:36:01,900
choice that you can make at end of life.

689
00:36:01,940 --> 00:36:07,940
How much do you think that With the
movement from us caring for our dead

690
00:36:07,940 --> 00:36:13,010
and dying in the home at sort of perhaps
the turn of the century to now sort of

691
00:36:13,030 --> 00:36:17,620
being more the end of life and dying
process, sort of more happening in a

692
00:36:17,620 --> 00:36:21,810
hospital and happening in an aged care
facility, and perhaps because we're an

693
00:36:21,820 --> 00:36:26,850
aging population, how much do you think
that change has also perhaps had an

694
00:36:26,860 --> 00:36:30,660
impact in our connection to Thank you.

695
00:36:31,025 --> 00:36:33,175
Considering body donation is an option.

696
00:36:33,295 --> 00:36:34,595
I really couldn't say.

697
00:36:34,595 --> 00:36:37,195
I mean, because body donation,
the thing that I found is

698
00:36:37,195 --> 00:36:39,285
that it's a very small scene.

699
00:36:39,285 --> 00:36:42,705
I think a lot of people
don't really know about it.

700
00:36:42,705 --> 00:36:44,945
Like they kind of a vaguely
heard about it, but they've

701
00:36:44,945 --> 00:36:46,295
never really thought about it.

702
00:36:46,335 --> 00:36:50,365
And so the one thing that was really
striking was that, you know, when I

703
00:36:50,365 --> 00:36:53,455
was researching the book, I was trying
to find family members of donors.

704
00:36:53,455 --> 00:36:55,695
I was just trying to find
anybody who'd signed up for it.

705
00:36:55,705 --> 00:36:56,535
And I just couldn't.

706
00:36:56,615 --> 00:36:58,315
And it was only.

707
00:36:58,745 --> 00:37:02,565
You know, I, I found two people that
had relatives that donated their

708
00:37:02,565 --> 00:37:05,725
bodies and the only reason their
relative had done it is because they

709
00:37:05,735 --> 00:37:10,615
had been at medical school or they
had a really direct connection to it.

710
00:37:10,625 --> 00:37:13,435
So I think that body donation.

711
00:37:13,895 --> 00:37:18,435
Perhaps if you had a nursing home
where there was a, a doctor who

712
00:37:18,475 --> 00:37:21,885
was telling everybody that he was
going to donate and then he donated,

713
00:37:21,955 --> 00:37:23,465
then that might have an impact.

714
00:37:23,645 --> 00:37:27,185
The thing that's kind of a bit not really
spoken about much is that a lot of people

715
00:37:27,185 --> 00:37:32,275
that do donate do it for financial reasons
and within the anatomical community, they

716
00:37:32,275 --> 00:37:34,655
are aware that it is a social class thing.

717
00:37:34,655 --> 00:37:38,815
So You know, if you donate your body, the
university will pay for your cremation.

718
00:37:38,975 --> 00:37:42,285
And so you'll get cremated and then
you get a phone call a few years

719
00:37:42,285 --> 00:37:44,095
later and you get the ashes back.

720
00:37:44,095 --> 00:37:47,885
So people definitely donate to save money.

721
00:37:47,895 --> 00:37:51,115
And some anatomists told me that they'll
get a phone call from someone saying,

722
00:37:51,115 --> 00:37:52,845
Oh yeah, mom always wanted to donate.

723
00:37:52,995 --> 00:37:56,045
But the universities are like,
we need some paperwork because

724
00:37:56,075 --> 00:37:58,125
most universities want to do.

725
00:37:58,440 --> 00:37:59,700
consent donation.

726
00:37:59,830 --> 00:38:04,600
So it seems very clear that if someone
is interested in donating their whole

727
00:38:04,620 --> 00:38:08,910
body, that they should really contact
their local university and have that

728
00:38:08,910 --> 00:38:10,690
conversation with them directly.

729
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:10,910
Yeah.

730
00:38:10,910 --> 00:38:12,080
You've got to fill out paperwork.

731
00:38:12,090 --> 00:38:15,180
You have to consent to things
like, you know, parts of your

732
00:38:15,180 --> 00:38:16,490
body might be photographed.

733
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:21,090
And also they really encourage next of
kin because you might sign up for it,

734
00:38:21,090 --> 00:38:22,190
but then you haven't spoken to your.

735
00:38:22,490 --> 00:38:25,360
You know, your sister or
whatever, and she'll just say no.

736
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,510
And some anatomists said to me that
if a family member says no, they just

737
00:38:28,510 --> 00:38:30,060
say, fine, we won't take the body.

738
00:38:30,060 --> 00:38:34,460
So yeah, there's definitely a
lot of consent issues around it.

739
00:38:34,710 --> 00:38:35,550
But yeah, like, I don't know.

740
00:38:35,580 --> 00:38:39,470
Cause there is a big shift in the death
movement and you know, this desire for

741
00:38:39,470 --> 00:38:42,600
people to take death back from the system.

742
00:38:42,700 --> 00:38:46,200
You know, I think people are trying
to shift things, but it's a very,

743
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:47,990
very tricky and slow process.

744
00:38:48,495 --> 00:38:48,975
And tell me,

745
00:38:48,975 --> 00:38:54,335
Jackie, you started off writing this book
and going down these rabbit holes to find

746
00:38:54,335 --> 00:38:56,045
out what happened to your grandparents.

747
00:38:56,545 --> 00:38:57,075
Yes.

748
00:38:57,555 --> 00:38:58,715
Did you ever find out?

749
00:38:58,885 --> 00:39:00,085
Are you happy to share that?

750
00:39:00,215 --> 00:39:01,105
Are you going to?

751
00:39:01,195 --> 00:39:01,605
Well, no.

752
00:39:01,665 --> 00:39:01,705
I can

753
00:39:02,355 --> 00:39:03,705
tell you they got dissected.

754
00:39:04,165 --> 00:39:04,515
Yep.

755
00:39:04,605 --> 00:39:08,690
And, um, apparently someone told me
afterwards that I could have actually I

756
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,960
really pressured the university to give
me more details, but apparently there's

757
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:14,790
some code number or something like that.

758
00:39:14,790 --> 00:39:19,020
I could have gotten more details, but
I don't know exactly what happened to

759
00:39:19,020 --> 00:39:22,530
them, but I know what probably happened.

760
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,920
But also the thing that I kind of
loved about it was meeting these

761
00:39:25,980 --> 00:39:29,410
older surgeons and doctors and what
happened to them because of it.

762
00:39:29,660 --> 00:39:34,710
You know, I kind of liked that idea
that my grandparents, you know, they did

763
00:39:34,710 --> 00:39:38,610
something quite odd, which I think quite
odd, but you know, they did something

764
00:39:38,610 --> 00:39:41,000
that they really trained doctors.

765
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,790
Like it really did play a
part in helping the future.

766
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,590
So, you know, I know now
a bit about dissection.

767
00:39:47,590 --> 00:39:48,860
I know about embalming.

768
00:39:49,340 --> 00:39:50,190
I know about.

769
00:39:50,710 --> 00:39:52,760
You know, anatomical museums.

770
00:39:52,850 --> 00:39:57,760
I know all the terrible jokes that
people told about in the 60s and 70s.

771
00:39:57,770 --> 00:40:00,420
I know that anatomy labs are human spaces.

772
00:40:00,630 --> 00:40:03,800
And just the one thing that you
mentioned there that we haven't

773
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,110
discussed is anatomical museums.

774
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:08,260
So what are they?

775
00:40:08,550 --> 00:40:12,580
Yeah, so it's quite interesting in
Australia, you know, I mean, before we had

776
00:40:12,740 --> 00:40:15,029
photography, of course, across the world.

777
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,100
Body parts were preserved so that
scientists and students could study them

778
00:40:19,350 --> 00:40:24,230
and sort of up until kind of the 1930s
and 40s Across the world they were open

779
00:40:24,230 --> 00:40:27,910
to the public a lot of people would go
in and look at them But what sort of

780
00:40:27,910 --> 00:40:31,510
happened over time is is that they've
kind of waned particularly because

781
00:40:31,510 --> 00:40:35,150
you have photography But also because
anatomical knowledge has become sort of

782
00:40:35,150 --> 00:40:39,650
more microscopic So, you know, we don't
need to look at a big arm anymore a

783
00:40:39,650 --> 00:40:43,940
dissected arm as much as we once did The
thing that I found really interesting

784
00:40:44,060 --> 00:40:46,740
is how closed off these museums are now.

785
00:40:46,780 --> 00:40:51,200
In Europe, you can see all sorts of
incredible, I've been to museums in

786
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:56,540
Copenhagen, in the UK, in Austria,
really incredible anatomical museums.

787
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,740
I recommend if you're going on
a holiday to check them out,

788
00:40:58,740 --> 00:40:59,730
they're pretty incredible.

789
00:41:00,260 --> 00:41:03,770
But in Australia, they're quite closed
off, which I have a few issues with.

790
00:41:03,770 --> 00:41:07,440
I find it quite paternalistic, but I
guess part of the issue is that there's

791
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,180
a lot of ethical problems around.

792
00:41:09,535 --> 00:41:12,765
These museums that, you know,
where did these bodies come from?

793
00:41:12,835 --> 00:41:16,235
Usually they're poor people
who died in mental hospitals.

794
00:41:16,245 --> 00:41:19,575
So it's sort of, it's
anatomy is bad history that's

795
00:41:19,595 --> 00:41:20,935
playing out in these museums.

796
00:41:20,935 --> 00:41:25,235
I personally think that they should just
have a big sign on the door discussing

797
00:41:25,235 --> 00:41:26,805
the history of medicine because.

798
00:41:27,335 --> 00:41:30,535
You know, as we know now, there's
probably practices that are happening in

799
00:41:30,545 --> 00:41:34,455
medicine today, you know, that in 50 years
time we'll think are really unethical.

800
00:41:34,995 --> 00:41:39,555
So I feel like they need to be opened
up a bit more, the museums, but they

801
00:41:39,555 --> 00:41:44,165
are really confronting though, like, I
went to an incredible museum at Sydney

802
00:41:44,165 --> 00:41:48,635
Uni, which is not easy to get access
to, and they've got like a wall of legs.

803
00:41:48,995 --> 00:41:50,995
And, you know, incredible dissections.

804
00:41:50,995 --> 00:41:54,365
And the thing too is that these
museums have the artistry and the

805
00:41:54,375 --> 00:41:57,615
skill that has gone into some of
these dissections is incredible.

806
00:41:57,635 --> 00:41:59,895
Like, it really, really is incredible.

807
00:41:59,895 --> 00:42:03,095
And so you really get a sense of,
you know, so I had a groin injury.

808
00:42:03,095 --> 00:42:05,305
I think I had like a leg injury
from running or something.

809
00:42:05,890 --> 00:42:09,260
So I was really like studying this leg and
looking at all the different muscles and

810
00:42:09,260 --> 00:42:10,950
going, Oh, that's probably why that hurts.

811
00:42:10,950 --> 00:42:14,130
And, you know, that's why
that bits, you know, aching.

812
00:42:14,140 --> 00:42:17,580
And I mean, they are really,
really confronting spaces.

813
00:42:17,650 --> 00:42:18,820
I felt quite sick.

814
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,730
I'm pretty squeamish person.

815
00:42:21,190 --> 00:42:26,850
And so, yeah, I felt quite confronted,
but I felt also that I learned a lot,

816
00:42:26,870 --> 00:42:30,480
you know, and I think that people
are interested in looking inside

817
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,500
their bodies and they do want to.

818
00:42:33,865 --> 00:42:38,395
Learn about what's happening inside and
this is why the body worlds exhibition

819
00:42:38,395 --> 00:42:41,115
is so popular I want to look inside

820
00:42:41,365 --> 00:42:44,465
and the thing is is that they're
sort of like the gatekeepers really

821
00:42:44,465 --> 00:42:47,735
aren't they because it's not like
we can Look inside ourselves.

822
00:42:48,365 --> 00:42:51,475
That's the only way we can
access what this looks like is

823
00:42:51,530 --> 00:42:55,260
by having access to those museums
where that work has been done.

824
00:42:55,260 --> 00:43:00,200
So it can display those amazing muscles
and dissected in that particular way.

825
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:05,610
So it really is an opportunity that we
can't get to see that work, even though

826
00:43:05,910 --> 00:43:07,530
that it actually tells so much about.

827
00:43:07,780 --> 00:43:08,480
ourselves.

828
00:43:08,830 --> 00:43:12,360
And it's interesting because you do
touch on the ethics around, and I

829
00:43:12,380 --> 00:43:16,860
think it was in relation to Melbourne
University and the repatriation of

830
00:43:16,870 --> 00:43:20,900
First Nations bones back and the work
that they've been doing around that.

831
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,100
So it's not like there isn't a
precedent of discussing hard topics.

832
00:43:25,700 --> 00:43:26,200
Yeah.

833
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,690
I mean, it's, I think that, you know,
within the anatomical world, you have so

834
00:43:29,690 --> 00:43:34,710
many different camps and there are some
anatomists that are absolutely engaged in

835
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,609
the ethics and, you know, some scientists.

836
00:43:37,940 --> 00:43:39,590
Wanna go to work and do their job.

837
00:43:39,650 --> 00:43:42,860
But you know, I would say generally
in Australia there are a lot of

838
00:43:42,860 --> 00:43:45,860
people thinking about what's the
right way, what to do with the bodies.

839
00:43:45,860 --> 00:43:48,620
I mean, a really fascinating
problem is the skeletons.

840
00:43:48,650 --> 00:43:52,850
So a lot of older doctors, you
know, I've got like a family friend,

841
00:43:52,850 --> 00:43:55,610
he's got a skeleton at home and he
doesn't know what to do with it.

842
00:43:55,610 --> 00:43:59,300
And they're all real human
skeletons because in the 1930s,

843
00:43:59,300 --> 00:44:03,650
up until the 1980s, there was a
huge skeleton trade out of India.

844
00:44:04,150 --> 00:44:08,240
So much so that the different skulls
have got like brands on them, you

845
00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:11,850
know, and there was actually a
union for bone skeleton dealers.

846
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:17,150
So there's a big movement now as well
with the skeletons in anatomic, you

847
00:44:17,150 --> 00:44:19,620
know, across the board, all these
doctors that have got skeletons, they

848
00:44:19,620 --> 00:44:21,070
just don't know what to do with them.

849
00:44:21,110 --> 00:44:24,570
So that's sort of another issue that is
sort of popping up, you know, what to

850
00:44:24,570 --> 00:44:27,680
do with these, cause it's basically, you
know, it's a dead person in their garage.

851
00:44:28,415 --> 00:44:28,845
Yeah.

852
00:44:28,895 --> 00:44:33,555
And, you know, how do you respectfully
dispose of that when you don't

853
00:44:33,595 --> 00:44:35,205
know who to give it back to either?

854
00:44:35,335 --> 00:44:39,465
Mm. I think there is talk of, you
know, building some sort of memorial

855
00:44:39,475 --> 00:44:44,415
or finding a way to memorialize,
but it's a very, very complex space.

856
00:44:44,545 --> 00:44:50,465
And tell me, you visited the memorial
that is dedicated to your grandparents

857
00:44:50,495 --> 00:44:55,285
and the area where it's dedicated,
and how was that for you to go back?

858
00:44:55,830 --> 00:44:56,580
in that space.

859
00:44:56,580 --> 00:45:00,160
And I think from memory, you actually
went back there with someone who

860
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,390
used to do dissection as well.

861
00:45:02,500 --> 00:45:05,140
Well, no, I, yeah, I went to the
graveyard where they were buried.

862
00:45:05,140 --> 00:45:09,220
So after they were dissected,
yes, they were cremated.

863
00:45:09,230 --> 00:45:12,800
And yeah, so I actually went to
the graveyard with Leo, who was

864
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:14,730
a technician at Queensland Uni.

865
00:45:14,730 --> 00:45:18,940
So I was in Brisbane researching, I
interviewed him and I said, Oh, I'm going

866
00:45:18,940 --> 00:45:20,750
to go check out my grandparents grave.

867
00:45:20,750 --> 00:45:22,600
So yeah, that was kind of
a fascinating experience.

868
00:45:22,955 --> 00:45:27,905
I think it was an interesting experience
for him as well, because he had not really

869
00:45:28,115 --> 00:45:32,055
engaged, you know, he hadn't actually
been through this sort of process.

870
00:45:32,065 --> 00:45:36,255
So yeah, it was really interesting
to go and see their grave.

871
00:45:36,255 --> 00:45:38,175
I actually found that
there was a plaque missing.

872
00:45:38,175 --> 00:45:40,175
So hopefully that's been
glued, you know, they've.

873
00:45:40,420 --> 00:45:41,500
glued one back on.

874
00:45:41,780 --> 00:45:45,800
And how is that all of this work,
you know, as you said, four years of

875
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:52,990
study, so many rabbit holes, how has
this impacted your view on end of life

876
00:45:53,010 --> 00:45:56,050
options, mortality, how has it impacted

877
00:45:56,050 --> 00:45:56,360
you?

878
00:45:56,610 --> 00:45:59,980
I mean, look, writing the book at
times, it was quite yucky for me.

879
00:46:00,240 --> 00:46:03,670
Like it definitely was confronting
at times, you know, when you

880
00:46:03,670 --> 00:46:06,210
get into the nitty gritty of
dissection, it's really gross.

881
00:46:06,250 --> 00:46:10,500
Like, It is, you know, cutting
off fat and they, you know, the,

882
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,280
some older surgeons told me kind
of quite detailed, gory stuff.

883
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,800
So, you know, and then you look
at old photographs of dissection

884
00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:21,310
from the 1930s and 40s, there was
a tradition where medical students

885
00:46:21,310 --> 00:46:22,520
would pose with the bodies.

886
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:24,820
And so I was kind of like freaked out.

887
00:46:25,255 --> 00:46:28,595
at times about sort of
the detail of dissection.

888
00:46:28,595 --> 00:46:29,815
It's pretty gross.

889
00:46:29,875 --> 00:46:33,035
And I don't know, weirdly enough, I
felt like I just sort of thought it

890
00:46:33,035 --> 00:46:34,495
was sort of a shameful thing to do.

891
00:46:34,495 --> 00:46:34,855
I don't know.

892
00:46:34,855 --> 00:46:35,445
It was weird.

893
00:46:35,445 --> 00:46:37,775
I just went through a lot of
different, I think, especially

894
00:46:37,775 --> 00:46:39,675
the particulars of dissection.

895
00:46:39,885 --> 00:46:44,265
And also I felt, you know, I didn't want
to upset my dad and my uncle, like them

896
00:46:44,265 --> 00:46:47,405
reading this book about All the gore,
but I mean, I've got, you know, I got

897
00:46:47,405 --> 00:46:48,855
their permission and they were fine.

898
00:46:48,865 --> 00:46:51,575
But look, I've always been quite
interested in the death space.

899
00:46:51,575 --> 00:46:52,585
I grew up in the Philippines.

900
00:46:52,585 --> 00:46:53,955
It had an open death culture.

901
00:46:53,955 --> 00:46:58,135
So I'd say that, yeah, like I went
through like some weird times.

902
00:46:58,135 --> 00:47:02,175
I had some weird dreams, especially when
I went out to the forensic facility,

903
00:47:02,185 --> 00:47:04,365
which is a new pathway for donors to go.

904
00:47:04,365 --> 00:47:06,695
That was very confronting
seeing sort of, you know, the

905
00:47:06,695 --> 00:47:08,605
corpses in various situations.

906
00:47:08,885 --> 00:47:11,995
So yeah, it was definitely,
you know, very imaginative.

907
00:47:12,175 --> 00:47:14,805
kind of gory dreams at times.

908
00:47:14,805 --> 00:47:18,915
But yeah, I feel like I've done my time
with death and not that I let go of it.

909
00:47:18,915 --> 00:47:23,725
But yeah, it was just, it is really great
to just get into a topic and just go,

910
00:47:23,725 --> 00:47:25,625
wow, there are so many threads to it.

911
00:47:25,875 --> 00:47:29,155
Well, Jackie, I have to say, I can't
thank you enough for actually going

912
00:47:29,155 --> 00:47:32,255
down the rabbit holes that you did,
because if it wasn't for the work

913
00:47:32,255 --> 00:47:35,965
that you did over that four years,
we would have had really no idea.

914
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,710
what it involves and the history of it.

915
00:47:38,710 --> 00:47:42,450
You can touch on little bits, but not
to the degree in which you've done.

916
00:47:42,470 --> 00:47:44,860
So I really thank you for
the work that you've done.

917
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,200
Well, thanks for having me
on your show, Catherine.

918
00:47:47,210 --> 00:47:48,350
It's been lovely chatting.

919
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:49,550
Thanks, Jackie.

920
00:47:52,190 --> 00:47:55,610
We hope you enjoyed today's
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921
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:57,510
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922
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,710
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923
00:48:02,710 --> 00:48:04,560
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00:48:04,810 --> 00:48:07,130
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925
00:48:07,205 --> 00:48:10,145
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926
00:48:10,325 --> 00:48:14,465
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00:48:14,465 --> 00:48:16,205
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928
00:48:16,505 --> 00:48:17,855
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929
00:48:17,975 --> 00:48:18,965
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930
00:48:18,965 --> 00:48:22,925
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