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Lauren: Why do kids bully me at school?

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What do you mean when a body dies?

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How does it actually die?

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Why do I feel tired all the time?

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Or why can't I sleep?

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Or why am I so sleepy?

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Or why is my tummy sore?... Read More

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Lauren: Why do kids bully me at school?

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What do you mean when a body dies?

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How does it actually die?

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Why do I feel tired all the time?

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Or why can't I sleep?

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Or why am I so sleepy?

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Or why is my tummy sore?

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Or how do I come across
as normal to other people?

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How do you handle the big feelings?

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Those kinds of things.

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And then the bigger existential questions.

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So what is the meaning of life
or what is even the point of

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living if you just have to die?

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Why do some people who are sick
get better and other people who are

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sick don't get better and they die?

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So really big sophisticated questions.

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So what we learned was that the questions
overall were quite sophisticated and it

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also shows that The breadth and depth of
the questions that grieving children can

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have and the importance of then creating
an environment around them where they

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are encouraged to ask those questions and
maybe helping the parents or caregivers

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around them to feel more comfortable
in trying to answer those questions.

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Catherine: Welcome to Don't Be
Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging

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open conversations about dying
and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Katherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death back to life.

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Because while you may not be ready
to die, At least you can be prepared.

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Don't be caught dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin nations

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and recognizes their connection
to land, sea, and community.

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We pay our respects to their elders
past, present, and emerging, and

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extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Described as the beating
heart of Lionheart Camp for

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Kids, founding director and.

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CEO Shelly Skinner's vision is to
make sure all children are provided

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with the support and care they
need after losing someone close.

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Lauren Breen is a professor at
Curtin University specializing in

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the psychology of grief and loss.

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Her research focuses on understanding
grief experiences, improving

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palliative and end of life
care, developing interventions,

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and promoting grief literacy.

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Together, they published What
Bereaved Children Want to Know About

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Death and Grief in the Journal of
Child and Family Studies last year.

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Learn Let's see what they learned.

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Thank you for joining
us, Shelley and Lauren.

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Lauren: Thanks for

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Catherine: having us.

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Shelley, can you please tell me where you
got the idea for Lionheart Camp for Kids?

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Shelly: Sure.

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As a social worker, I worked in
palliative care and end of life

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for adults at a veteran hospital
here in Western Australia.

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And through that work, I found that
all of the stories that the veterans

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would tell me were always about their
family or about their life or their

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time in the war would very often
center around when someone had died.

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Or there had been a loss for them,
whether that's a parent who died when

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they were young, or a child of theirs
who died, or a spouse, and When they

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recap their whole life story, that was
a really focused and really important

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and life changing moment for them.

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I then moved to work in pediatrics
at Princess Margaret Hospital and

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then Perth Children's Hospital.

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And I could see kind of
happening in real time.

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The impacts for children, teens and
families when somebody had a sick

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child for a long period of time
or somebody's child had died, I

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could really see that life altering
experience play out for them.

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As the veterans had described had
happened for them 50 or 60 or 70 years

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ago and working in WA I noticed that in
we have a lot of really good Charities

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and supports for children if your
family member dies from cancer And there

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should be those great supports, and at
Lionheart we work very closely with them.

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However, before Lionheart, if your
family member died of something that

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was not cancer related, there was very
little support for children and teens,

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and particularly families as a whole.

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To navigate their grief and as someone
who my mom died when I was 20 and like all

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good families are a really quirky family.

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And, and I know that my sister and I
would have very, very different lives now.

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Uh, had my mom died when I was
six and it would be my dad's sole

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responsibility to take care of us.

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There would just be no way that.

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Our lives would have turned out in
any way looking like they have today.

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So I decided that it was really important
that we provided support for children

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and teens in WA if they'd experienced
the death of someone in their life,

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uh, through, regardless of how.

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Regardless of who in their life,
regardless of where they live,

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they were in a very, very large
state, and regardless of how much

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money they had to pay for services.

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We really wanted to normalize the
grief experience and really help kids

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and teens know that regardless of who
you are in this world, Grief and loss

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will happen for you, and it's a normal
and healthy response of your body.

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And so to make sure that we knew, we
know it's normal and that we have some

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really strong, healthy coping strategies,
knowing how to manage it when it does

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happen time and time again through life.

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Catherine: Yeah, wow.

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That is really insightful that you, it's
something simple to recognize, but at

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the same time, obviously, as you said,
you know, you didn't start low in heart

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and foot two 2015 and prior to that
time, there was no camp for kids that

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weren't affected by a loss through cancer.

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Like, it's amazing that it took that
long to recognize that that support was

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required outside that, that, that illness.

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Shelly: Absolutely.

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And certainly there was some fabulous
programs again in the cancer space.

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You know, Renita said who did this
fabulous camp called Camp Onwards for

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siblings of children with cancer, but
that real normalizing that, you know,

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the universal part of your, any kind of
triangle that you, you have in a public

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health model, that normalizing peer
connectedness, community connectedness,

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psychoeducation, uh, just the.

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Providing support and education
to the whole family as well.

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Uh, we certainly noticed when we
started that we were providing support

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to the children, kind of a five to
12 year old age group, and they would

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go home to their families and their
families would report back to us that

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those new skills and strategies were
fantastic, but they weren't sustainable

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in the family home because nobody else
knew what they were talking about.

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All right.

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So our model.

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Yeah, so our model evolved into
5 to 12 year olds, 12 to 17 year

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olds and adults all at the same
time learning the same stuff.

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Catherine: Yeah, right.

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So is that how sort of the programs
evolved during that period is that

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you realize that there was a need to,
I suppose, provide everyone with the

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same language in the household then?

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Shelly: Absolutely.

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Yeah, make sure everyone understood
the same information, knew the same

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language, had the same strategies, and
also just being able to help families have

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those really sensitive, tender, tricky,
uncomfortable conversations, because

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certainly without some guidance in our
family, we wouldn't have trouble doing it.

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And I teach people to do it for a living.

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So I can only imagine for people
who don't do it regularly, uh, that

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those kind of sticky, tricky, sticky
conversations are hard to have.

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So being able to teach all family
members to just lean into those,

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I think it's been really helpful.

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Catherine: So tell me a little bit
about the programs that you do offer.

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Uh, so it's a camp that
the kids come away to.

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Tell me a little bit about it all.

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Shelly: For our new families
camp, we call them camp.

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And we are trying to
think of a better word.

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We haven't thought of a better word yet
because it's not an overnight experience.

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Uh, so you come, it's a two day program.

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So you come along for one day and then
you go home and you practice the things

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you learned and then come back the
next day and and feedback on on how

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that went and continue the process.

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Really, camps are, our new
family camp is our foundation

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and our core program to date.

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And with that, it's about bringing all
children, teens and families together in

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one place to normalize what's going on.

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So most kids who come to camp
will say they felt like they were

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the only one in their class or
the only one in their school.

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They didn't know anyone
else in their social circle.

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Who experienced a mom, dad, brother,
sister who died, which is really

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interesting given that 1 in 20 children
will experience the death of a parent

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during childhood up until age of 16.

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So in WA, that's about 30, 000 kids.

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So it's always really
interesting to us that.

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given those really high numbers.

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And I guess that doesn't even include
those children and teens that experience

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the death of a sibling or another really
close family member that when they come

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to camp often say, I just don't know
anyone else and I feel really alone.

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And no matter how much people try
to help, um, unless you've lived the

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experience, you don't quite have that
That ability to know and so kids, they,

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I mean, it's a terrifying proposition.

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The idea of saying to a child, let's go
and talk on the school holidays for two

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days with a complete strangers about
the saddest thing in our whole life.

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No one's going to say that sounds amazing.

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So they, upon arrival, everybody
looks terrified and we'd be worried

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if they didn't, but within half an
hour of being together in the group.

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The kids have all made friends and it's
like they've known each other forever.

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Uh, so we start with some really
fun games, which breaks the ice,

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and after everyone's gone off
into their, their separate spaces.

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And then we all bring a photo of the
special person in our life who died, and

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we, in our small groups, tell our story.

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So my story is always, I take a
photo of my mum and say, this is

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my mum, her name is Marina, she was
in the Navy, and she was a chef.

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And I would say she died when I was
26 and they used to use her scones.

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We used to joke, she's very, very good at
making savory dishes, not sweet dishes.

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So we used to joke that they would use
her scones as like rocket launches in

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the Navy instead of missiles because
they were so hard and terrible.

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And then some and, and then everyone
goes around and tells their story

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about their person and immediately
that's the this connection.

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And people often say, but
don't kids say, oh, but.

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Your dad died, but my brother
died and see the difference.

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So make a comparison and we never
say that kids just feel really

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connected by the fact that someone
important in your lifetime and so

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an important in my lifetime and so
that sets the scene for the day.

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Um, and let them know that we're going
to be really open and upfront and

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they can participate and contribute
as much as they would like to.

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And we look at the relationship
they had with the person who died,

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what they know, what their memories
are, what their feelings are, really

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connecting that thoughts, feelings,
actions, exploring for kids.

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A lot of the, I have a
headache or my tummy hurts.

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Both of to say, I feel really jealous
about, or I feel really ashamed because.

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And we work really closely with them
to help them work out what their story

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is going to be moving forward and how
they continue to keep the relationship

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with the person who's died in their
life and how you harness that and

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what does that look like and how do
you do that in a really safe way.

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Catherine: Wow.

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Like they're amazing skills that.

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I don't think I actually learned until my
20s or early 30s to be perfectly honest.

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Shelly: Yeah.

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Absolutely.

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And we really hope that if by teaching
kids these skills early, that they'll have

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this whole skill set to use repeatedly
over the course of life, because then

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what we know for this cohort of kids is
that they're far more susceptible to risk

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taking behavior, drug and alcohol misuse.

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Increased mental health issues in
adolescence and in adulthood, you know,

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increased likelihood to attempt suicide
during adolescence, whole raft of things,

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and really by introducing these skills,
normalizing grief, and creating this peer

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support around them, and this community
around them, we're really hoping to reduce

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those negative impacts that we know exist.

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Catherine: It's really amazing when you
say that talking about like the fact that

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the grief and the emotions that they're
feeling can manifest in physical pain.

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Like, I know when my son was at
primary school and he was always

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complaining of a tummy ache and we
realized that it was associated with

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the bullying that he was feeling and
that he went through at that time.

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So it's really amazing that
you can give them the skills to

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understand that what they're feeling
can manifest in a physical way.

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Cause like that's super powerful
that they can actually be able to

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recognize that from a young age.

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Shelly: Yeah, it's amazing.

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And I think Those types of feedbacks from
people and wanting to know more about

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that is really the basis of the work we
do with Curtin University and with Lauren

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in the research, because there's not a
lot of research out there, Australian

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research, and there's more and more all
the time because Lauren's doing it, but

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about the impact for children and what
that looks like holistically for them.

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Catherine: Yeah, and I think that's a
good time to segue over to you, Lauren.

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So, you're a leading expert in grief,
and as Shelley just mentioned, you

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know, and I mentioned earlier, you're
a professor at Curtin University.

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But not only that, you're also
on the board of Grief Australia

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and Lionhearts board as well.

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What was it that initially
attracted you to focus your

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research on this area of expertise?

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00:15:13,410 --> 00:15:19,140
Lauren: Yeah, so I'm a psychologist as
well, and I have no idea what psychology

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was when I applied for university.

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I just thought it sort
of sounds interesting.

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So I have no idea why I put
that down on my preferences.

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And yeah, in terms of the research that I
do, I guess a lot of researchers often get

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inspiration from their, their own lives.

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So I know colleagues, for example, who
do research around physical activity,

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getting people to be physically active,
and it's because they love all that,

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or maybe they study stuff to do with
disability, for example, because

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they have a sibling with disability.

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So for me, when I was about 20,
I had a, there was a death in my

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family from a road traffic crash.

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And so a couple of years later,
when I was looking for something to

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study for my PhD, and I'd gone to
the literature and thought, this,

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this isn't answering my question.

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My questions, this doesn't really
fit with what I'm seeing and I guess

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in that naivety of you thinking, Oh,
well, maybe I can make a difference

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and I can answer these questions.

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So I ended up doing my PhD on experiences
of people when they've had a family

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member die in a road traffic crash.

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And so ever since then, the bulk
of my research has been around all

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kinds of things to do with grief
and loss across the lifespan.

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Catherine: I don't think that we should
ever apologize for that naivety of

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00:16:35,635 --> 00:16:37,245
thinking that we can change the world.

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I think that, you know, if people didn't,
you know, have that thought in the

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first place, we'd be a lot worse off.

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So I'm very pleased you had that,
that thought at that younger age.

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And, you know, the work that
you do, especially in the road

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traffic space, obviously is quite.

256
00:16:54,060 --> 00:16:57,870
dear to me when after my car
accident that I had five years

257
00:16:57,870 --> 00:17:00,810
ago, and just the difference
that that can make one incident.

258
00:17:01,100 --> 00:17:03,800
And fortunately, I didn't
obviously die in that.

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00:17:03,839 --> 00:17:09,049
But yeah, it can truly change your life
and those around you in an instant.

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So

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Lauren: yeah, absolutely.

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And part of the research that I did
eventually led to the establishment

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of an organization called Road
Trauma Support Western Australia.

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So, yeah, and as you said, I'm on the
board of Lionheart Camp for Kids, and I

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00:17:23,585 --> 00:17:28,595
was on the board for, of Grief Australia
for nine years, but just recently stepped

266
00:17:28,605 --> 00:17:32,934
down from that, was spreading myself a
little bit too thin, I guess, and trying

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00:17:32,934 --> 00:17:34,855
to consolidate my time a little better.

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Catherine: Ah, the, the
naivety's turned into wisdom

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now, and you've said it before.

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00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:43,250
Lauren: Yeah, exactly.

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Wisdom, cynicism, laziness.

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I don't know.

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Catherine: Tell me how
did you meet Shelley?

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Lauren: That's a good question.

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I think we met at a conference in maybe
Like a palliative care conference, maybe

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around 2016, 20, something like that.

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And then when Shelley, this is my story,
so it might be slightly different from her

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00:18:07,059 --> 00:18:12,539
memory, but she then phoned me one day at,
when I was at university and saying, you

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00:18:12,539 --> 00:18:17,040
know, I'm, I'm establishing this charity,
this organization, we want to do this.

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00:18:17,764 --> 00:18:21,084
We want to make sure we get, we
have this as much evidence based

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00:18:21,084 --> 00:18:22,925
and evidence informed as we can.

282
00:18:23,175 --> 00:18:26,155
Is this something, you know, you
and I could work together on?

283
00:18:26,495 --> 00:18:31,554
And so, yeah, we started on a research
project evaluating the very first

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00:18:31,554 --> 00:18:33,885
camp that Lionheart Camp for Kids ran.

285
00:18:34,635 --> 00:18:39,404
And then after that was published, Shelley
invited me to join the board of Lionheart.

286
00:18:39,854 --> 00:18:42,804
And so that's my memory of it,
but I'm not sure, Shelley, if,

287
00:18:42,864 --> 00:18:46,425
if that's kind of correct or, um,
uh, matches your memory of it.

288
00:18:47,294 --> 00:18:51,304
Shelly: No, no, it's a very similar
memory, but I do remember before

289
00:18:51,304 --> 00:18:55,254
making the call, I was trying not to
fangirl too much because obviously

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00:18:55,254 --> 00:18:58,655
I'd read all these articles over the
years that Lauren had published and I

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00:18:58,655 --> 00:19:01,304
was like, oh, will she take my call?

292
00:19:01,685 --> 00:19:05,145
So, yeah, no, and it's been
such a lovely experience.

293
00:19:05,810 --> 00:19:11,280
Partnership and a lovely connection
because I see things on the ground and

294
00:19:11,340 --> 00:19:13,140
kind of in the cancer in the programs.

295
00:19:13,950 --> 00:19:17,280
Um, and Lauren's obviously
working in the academic world.

296
00:19:17,620 --> 00:19:22,849
Um, and so being able to really
marry those 2 has been lovely.

297
00:19:24,445 --> 00:19:25,265
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely.

298
00:19:25,265 --> 00:19:28,395
And it's not that one is more important
than the other, or it's not just

299
00:19:28,395 --> 00:19:32,915
that, you know, I do the research and
then Shelley enacts it in practice.

300
00:19:33,134 --> 00:19:37,075
The practical sides of things, or those
questions actually inform the research.

301
00:19:37,075 --> 00:19:40,365
So it really works together
so beautifully, I think.

302
00:19:43,185 --> 00:19:44,135
Catherine: But it really does.

303
00:19:44,145 --> 00:19:47,264
Like I, I think that this
is the research paper.

304
00:19:47,335 --> 00:19:48,095
Oh, there we go.

305
00:19:48,095 --> 00:19:49,285
You can't even see on, there we go.

306
00:19:49,635 --> 00:19:51,365
The research paper that
we're referring to.

307
00:19:51,775 --> 00:19:55,745
So it's, you know, what bereaved children
want to know about death and grief.

308
00:19:55,805 --> 00:20:01,384
And, you know, what were learnings
that you, you had come out of this?

309
00:20:01,745 --> 00:20:06,825
Because for me, like, to have Australian
research in grief and, you know, normally

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00:20:06,825 --> 00:20:11,205
I'm used to reading papers from the
UK or, so to have something that's

311
00:20:11,215 --> 00:20:13,455
here about our children is fantastic.

312
00:20:13,765 --> 00:20:15,895
So, so congratulations to both of you.

313
00:20:16,354 --> 00:20:17,714
So, so what did you find out?

314
00:20:19,774 --> 00:20:23,854
Lauren: Yeah, so the way we went around
this study or went about it was so Shelly

315
00:20:23,854 --> 00:20:29,294
and the team had done multiple camps
and as one of the activities that the

316
00:20:29,294 --> 00:20:34,304
children do in the camps is they get to
write questions and submit them in a box

317
00:20:34,584 --> 00:20:38,844
and then in the afternoon on the second
day, I believe, Those questions then

318
00:20:38,854 --> 00:20:44,094
are answered in a session by Shelly as a
social worker and also a medical doctor.

319
00:20:44,444 --> 00:20:48,024
And so they get to ask any kind of
question that they've always maybe

320
00:20:48,024 --> 00:20:52,404
wanted to ask, but never maybe had
the opportunity to ask or felt brave

321
00:20:52,405 --> 00:20:56,365
enough to ask or that they had, or
that it was okay to ask this question.

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00:20:56,695 --> 00:21:01,004
And so Shelly and the team had collected
those questions over many, many camps.

323
00:21:01,024 --> 00:21:04,554
And yeah, so we decided let's
see what those questions are.

324
00:21:04,564 --> 00:21:07,304
What are kids who are
five to 12 years of age?

325
00:21:07,575 --> 00:21:12,635
Who have experienced grief, the death
of someone close to them, and what,

326
00:21:12,635 --> 00:21:14,405
what kind of questions do they have?

327
00:21:14,775 --> 00:21:18,795
And there were, I guess, five different
kinds of questions that they asked.

328
00:21:19,095 --> 00:21:23,224
So the first one was about a
lot of curiosity to do with the.

329
00:21:23,835 --> 00:21:27,605
Causes and processes of death, they
wanted to really understand, but like,

330
00:21:27,615 --> 00:21:29,445
what do you mean when a body dies?

331
00:21:29,455 --> 00:21:31,275
Like, how does it actually die?

332
00:21:31,695 --> 00:21:34,725
They had questions to do with
those kinds of mechanisms.

333
00:21:35,075 --> 00:21:38,965
The next set of questions were
very much about managing grief.

334
00:21:39,325 --> 00:21:43,055
So, you know, why do I feel
tired all the time or why can't

335
00:21:43,055 --> 00:21:45,235
I sleep or why am I so sleepy?

336
00:21:45,535 --> 00:21:48,955
Why is my tummy sore or how do I act?

337
00:21:49,035 --> 00:21:54,754
How do I come across as normal to other
people or yeah, those kinds of questions.

338
00:21:54,754 --> 00:21:57,285
How do you handle the big feelings?

339
00:21:57,515 --> 00:21:59,585
Why do kids bully me at school?

340
00:22:00,004 --> 00:22:01,175
Those kinds of things.

341
00:22:01,504 --> 00:22:05,455
And then the next set of questions
were about human intervention.

342
00:22:06,365 --> 00:22:10,935
So understanding, you know, the
role of, say, doctors and nurses,

343
00:22:10,965 --> 00:22:16,815
or what resuscitation is, or the
role of hospitals, things like that.

344
00:22:17,065 --> 00:22:20,865
And then the fourth one was, I
guess, bigger, philosophical,

345
00:22:20,895 --> 00:22:22,505
existential questions.

346
00:22:22,865 --> 00:22:25,435
That are really about the
meaning of life and death.

347
00:22:25,805 --> 00:22:29,625
So what is the meaning of life or
what is even the point of living?

348
00:22:29,625 --> 00:22:33,754
If you just have to die, why do
some people who are sick get better?

349
00:22:33,755 --> 00:22:36,644
And other people who are sick,
don't get better and they die.

350
00:22:36,655 --> 00:22:37,835
So really big.

351
00:22:38,070 --> 00:22:39,689
Sophisticated questions.

352
00:22:40,290 --> 00:22:43,679
And then the fifth one was around
the questions about after death.

353
00:22:43,689 --> 00:22:45,749
So, you know, where do
you go when you die?

354
00:22:45,759 --> 00:22:46,889
Is heaven real?

355
00:22:47,289 --> 00:22:50,119
Will my uncle see my pet
dog in the afterlife?

356
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,049
So those kinds of questions there.

357
00:22:52,389 --> 00:22:56,294
So I think what we learned was that the
questions overall were quite interesting.

358
00:22:56,294 --> 00:22:56,329
Alright.

359
00:22:56,530 --> 00:23:02,290
Sophisticated and it also shows the
breadth and depth of the questions

360
00:23:02,290 --> 00:23:06,440
that grieving children can have and
the importance of then creating an

361
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:11,029
environment around them where they are
encouraged to ask those questions and

362
00:23:11,029 --> 00:23:16,549
maybe helping the parents or caregivers
around them to feel more comfortable

363
00:23:16,549 --> 00:23:18,260
in trying to answer those questions.

364
00:23:18,270 --> 00:23:21,610
So, how can we develop that
language or those skills for the

365
00:23:21,620 --> 00:23:23,790
adults in those children's lives?

366
00:23:26,705 --> 00:23:32,395
Catherine: Some of those questions are
huge, you know, there's been novels and

367
00:23:32,395 --> 00:23:36,814
many of them written about what is the
meaning of life and why are we living it?

368
00:23:37,704 --> 00:23:41,935
So it's amazing to think that that
a question like that is going on in

369
00:23:41,935 --> 00:23:44,375
a five to 12 year old's little mind.

370
00:23:45,075 --> 00:23:47,754
You know, that's huge because perhaps.

371
00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:52,429
You know, I have had experience with
my own son, so I know there's some

372
00:23:52,429 --> 00:23:56,820
curveballs you can get, but, you know,
like, that's, that's really insightful.

373
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:02,795
And so, from the learnings from that
research, Are you looking at modifying

374
00:24:02,795 --> 00:24:06,955
or adapting certain things that
you're offering in the, the, the camps

375
00:24:06,955 --> 00:24:08,645
or the two day workshop, Shelley?

376
00:24:09,734 --> 00:24:12,655
Shelly: Yeah, for the questions,
the question and answer session

377
00:24:12,715 --> 00:24:18,134
does form a base, I guess, for
some of the activities that we run.

378
00:24:18,514 --> 00:24:22,675
Many of the questions are, you
know, things like, if my dad died

379
00:24:22,675 --> 00:24:24,955
of a heart attack, does that mean
I'll die of a heart attack too?

380
00:24:25,764 --> 00:24:28,125
Or why would someone choose
to end their own life?

381
00:24:29,435 --> 00:24:32,795
Um, and one of the big ones that kind
of gets asked every single time is,

382
00:24:33,405 --> 00:24:37,145
uh, if my dad has died, what will
happen to me if my mom dies also?

383
00:24:38,414 --> 00:24:42,624
And so these types of questions
really form some of the content,

384
00:24:43,114 --> 00:24:48,424
um, yes, in with the children's
programs, but often more with the

385
00:24:48,425 --> 00:24:50,374
teen programs and the adult session.

386
00:24:51,065 --> 00:24:55,395
So these questions really help us say
to adults, these are the things that

387
00:24:55,395 --> 00:24:56,975
children are repeatedly asking us.

388
00:24:57,735 --> 00:24:59,784
So over the 10 programs that we.

389
00:25:00,145 --> 00:25:01,265
Captured these questions.

390
00:25:01,265 --> 00:25:04,824
I think there was over 270
questions, and there was a lot

391
00:25:04,824 --> 00:25:06,665
of repeated same questions.

392
00:25:06,685 --> 00:25:11,235
So we're able to then create the content
for the adults to say, lots of kids asked

393
00:25:11,244 --> 00:25:15,384
this question, and particularly if you
think about a question like, what will

394
00:25:15,384 --> 00:25:17,974
happen to me if my mom dies as well?

395
00:25:18,365 --> 00:25:21,215
My dad has already died
for a lot of parents.

396
00:25:21,245 --> 00:25:26,824
The idea of having that conversation
to say, if I die too, then

397
00:25:27,104 --> 00:25:27,834
this is what's going to happen.

398
00:25:27,834 --> 00:25:30,644
You're going to go and stay with
blah, blah, blah, parents will

399
00:25:30,644 --> 00:25:31,694
say, I don't want to say that.

400
00:25:31,755 --> 00:25:33,125
Because what if they
haven't thought about it?

401
00:25:33,614 --> 00:25:34,944
And what if they're not worried about it?

402
00:25:34,944 --> 00:25:38,284
And me introducing this concept suddenly
makes them really worried about it.

403
00:25:38,844 --> 00:25:44,005
And we're able to say, we almost
guarantee you That your child has

404
00:25:44,005 --> 00:25:49,225
thought about this, you know, the
idea of death and dying and grief

405
00:25:49,455 --> 00:25:53,675
and has kind of been introduced into
their life much earlier than we would

406
00:25:53,675 --> 00:25:56,094
have liked, but now that it's there.

407
00:25:56,564 --> 00:26:00,875
They have the questions and sometimes
instead of laying in bed at night

408
00:26:00,925 --> 00:26:05,345
worrying, if you just have that
conversation with them now, it'll be

409
00:26:05,345 --> 00:26:10,435
a tricky kind of 8 minutes of your
life, but that will hopefully mean

410
00:26:10,465 --> 00:26:13,184
that they can put that to the side
and say, okay, at least we know what

411
00:26:13,184 --> 00:26:15,324
the plan is and kind of move forward.

412
00:26:15,805 --> 00:26:18,774
My husband and I redid our will
recently because we recently got

413
00:26:18,774 --> 00:26:21,805
married and didn't know that when you
get married, the will that you had

414
00:26:21,805 --> 00:26:23,895
done previously is no longer valid.

415
00:26:24,380 --> 00:26:25,600
So anyway, we know this now.

416
00:26:26,020 --> 00:26:30,300
So we redid our will, and our,
we said, and the kids are really

417
00:26:30,310 --> 00:26:33,059
interested, because we obviously
talk about this at home all the time.

418
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:34,160
The kids are really interested.

419
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:35,510
What happens to us if you die?

420
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,569
And we said, you go and stay with,
and we explained to, and they

421
00:26:39,570 --> 00:26:40,719
said, well, what if she dies too?

422
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,759
And I said, that's okay, because
then you go and stay with auntie such

423
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:44,970
and such and uncle blah, blah, blah.

424
00:26:45,449 --> 00:26:48,529
And, and the nine year old was
like, But where did they die?

425
00:26:49,220 --> 00:26:52,350
And I said, how, like, how many steps
down the chain do we need to go?

426
00:26:52,730 --> 00:26:56,300
And she said, well, what if
you're on a party bus and you

427
00:26:56,300 --> 00:26:57,669
will die at the same time?

428
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,110
And I said, okay, like,
let's go one further step.

429
00:27:01,169 --> 00:27:02,909
And so who, like, who do you think?

430
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,260
And they were able to say, you
know, our friend's mom and dad.

431
00:27:06,599 --> 00:27:09,930
And so we then had that conversation
with the friend's mom and dad, and they

432
00:27:09,930 --> 00:27:13,550
were able to say, yes, if such and such
dies and auntie and uncle such and such

433
00:27:13,550 --> 00:27:15,639
die, yes, you can come and stay with us.

434
00:27:15,780 --> 00:27:18,210
But if mommy was going out
to a party, we'll probably

435
00:27:18,210 --> 00:27:19,070
be on the party bus with her.

436
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:20,840
But it's really interesting.

437
00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:25,290
So my nine year old, that's how many steps
it needed to take for her to feel really

438
00:27:25,290 --> 00:27:27,390
comfortable with, okay, there's a plan.

439
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:29,000
And she hasn't mentioned it since.

440
00:27:29,490 --> 00:27:32,460
But even being able to have that
conversation, I think was really nice.

441
00:27:32,689 --> 00:27:36,860
And I think it demonstrated to her that
there's no topic that's off limits.

442
00:27:37,450 --> 00:27:40,690
Like you can talk to me about
anything that's kind of confronting or

443
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,539
uncomfortable or whatever, which is, you
know, I guess a good thing to role model.

444
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:46,100
In your family life as well.

445
00:27:47,950 --> 00:27:48,200
Catherine: Yeah.

446
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:53,280
And it gave that scenario that you were
just talking about gives so much power

447
00:27:53,290 --> 00:27:59,440
back to the kids being involved in that
and thinking about like, as far as they

448
00:27:59,450 --> 00:28:00,950
want to take it, you know what I mean?

449
00:28:00,959 --> 00:28:04,569
Like you said that your nine year
old needed some pretty, pretty

450
00:28:04,570 --> 00:28:06,140
good rich reassurance there.

451
00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:09,900
And I liked the fact that she
thought of the party bus scenario.

452
00:28:10,285 --> 00:28:15,415
Shelly: I don't think I've ever been on
a party bus in my life, my whole life.

453
00:28:15,955 --> 00:28:16,294
Catherine: I know.

454
00:28:16,324 --> 00:28:19,584
I was thinking the only time I've
ever been on a party bus was probably

455
00:28:19,594 --> 00:28:22,695
my hen's day and I won't be having
another one of those anytime soon.

456
00:28:22,695 --> 00:28:25,529
Oh, that's great.

457
00:28:25,529 --> 00:28:28,784
That's really fantastic.

458
00:28:28,855 --> 00:28:33,085
And so tell me, what do you think
with, with what you've seen and

459
00:28:33,085 --> 00:28:36,405
the conversations you've had,
what do you think are the most

460
00:28:36,405 --> 00:28:40,229
significant challenges that families
face after a loved one has died?

461
00:28:40,229 --> 00:28:42,139
Did you want to go Shelly?

462
00:28:47,780 --> 00:28:50,140
Shelly: I was doing the long pause
to see what you wanted to say.

463
00:28:50,410 --> 00:28:56,960
However, uh, I think given how program
is broken into 3 bits, the challenges

464
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,860
are really different depending
on children, teens and adults.

465
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,695
And I think the challenges, While some
are very similar, some are a little

466
00:29:06,695 --> 00:29:10,295
bit different, depending on if you
experience the death of a dad or a

467
00:29:10,295 --> 00:29:13,785
spouse, uh, versus a child in your family.

468
00:29:14,455 --> 00:29:18,655
So, the majority of families
that come to our camp have

469
00:29:18,764 --> 00:29:20,305
experienced the death of a parent.

470
00:29:20,815 --> 00:29:25,025
We do have all sorts of family members
who have died, but the majority is parent.

471
00:29:26,405 --> 00:29:32,745
And certainly what we see, For the adult
in our adult group is they talk about,

472
00:29:33,055 --> 00:29:34,465
I guess, the things you would expect.

473
00:29:34,825 --> 00:29:40,295
So things like financial challenges,
navigating navigating wheels, those

474
00:29:40,334 --> 00:29:44,554
types of things like dealing with it
in laws, all the kind of things, the

475
00:29:44,555 --> 00:29:46,595
conflict, the things that go with it.

476
00:29:47,155 --> 00:29:52,365
But I think the other thing that they
really talk a lot about is that sense

477
00:29:52,375 --> 00:29:54,905
of, I now have twice as many jobs to do.

478
00:29:54,915 --> 00:29:54,975
Thank you.

479
00:29:55,530 --> 00:29:56,160
around the house.

480
00:29:56,780 --> 00:30:00,800
And I have, I feel like I have half
as much time and half as much energy.

481
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,830
And there's probably a reason I
wasn't doing it in the first place,

482
00:30:03,910 --> 00:30:04,740
because I'm not good at them.

483
00:30:04,839 --> 00:30:05,550
I don't like them.

484
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:06,699
I don't know how to do them.

485
00:30:06,980 --> 00:30:10,439
But because I'm so busy with all my energy
in that direction now, I don't have as

486
00:30:10,570 --> 00:30:12,970
much time to just delight in my children.

487
00:30:13,805 --> 00:30:17,805
We don't have as much time to, like, watch
movies or hang out or go do fun things.

488
00:30:18,325 --> 00:30:22,415
So I think, you know, time is
really challenging for adults.

489
00:30:23,434 --> 00:30:27,245
They, a lot of adults report, you
know, a real sense of isolation.

490
00:30:27,914 --> 00:30:32,074
Like their friends don't know what to
say, so they either don't say anything,

491
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,010
Or, you know, it's really interesting.

492
00:30:35,030 --> 00:30:39,220
One thing that a lot of women who come
to the program say that every single

493
00:30:39,290 --> 00:30:43,540
time they said, I'm so surprised is my,
my women friends don't want to hang out

494
00:30:43,540 --> 00:30:46,269
with me anymore because they're worried
that I'm going to steal their husband.

495
00:30:48,210 --> 00:30:49,939
And I was like, what do you mean?

496
00:30:49,939 --> 00:30:51,590
They're like, I really
liked my own husband.

497
00:30:51,650 --> 00:30:52,119
I don't want theirs.

498
00:30:52,380 --> 00:30:57,535
But there's this real sense for women
in the community that We just, we're so

499
00:30:57,545 --> 00:30:59,555
vulnerable that we will attach ourselves.

500
00:31:00,255 --> 00:31:02,425
And so that's always
really striking for me.

501
00:31:02,425 --> 00:31:05,675
So what I love about our campus is
that they bring these things together.

502
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,170
Groups of people together, and it's
not just women, it's men as well,

503
00:31:09,170 --> 00:31:13,380
but it's the women who say a lot of
people with similar life experience

504
00:31:13,420 --> 00:31:14,460
and can be really connected.

505
00:31:15,350 --> 00:31:18,630
And so there, I guess, some of the
challenges for the adults, and I guess

506
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:25,000
for the kids, the challenges we see
mostly around memories, so not feeling

507
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,900
like they have enough memories of their
own, wanting to hear more stories.

508
00:31:28,650 --> 00:31:31,260
From the adults in their life
because that's how they form

509
00:31:31,260 --> 00:31:32,420
the memories in their life.

510
00:31:32,490 --> 00:31:36,340
That's how they work out their
own memories and particularly

511
00:31:36,340 --> 00:31:39,740
for kids who perhaps are born
after someone in their life dies.

512
00:31:40,650 --> 00:31:43,439
So, they never had a relationship with
that person and I feel like there's

513
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,790
this whole family that existed before
them that they didn't belong to.

514
00:31:48,050 --> 00:31:52,520
And so being able to ensure a sense of
belonging by telling stories and helping

515
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:57,250
them build their memories and being
able to, um, be connected in that way.

516
00:31:57,900 --> 00:32:01,500
Um, and I think the other thing for
siblings, um, and Lauren talks about

517
00:32:01,500 --> 00:32:06,670
this all the time, is that your
sibling is often your first kind of

518
00:32:07,010 --> 00:32:11,030
playmate, the person you learn how
to have conflict with, the person

519
00:32:11,030 --> 00:32:15,070
you learn how to share or not share
with, um, and who's always there.

520
00:32:15,670 --> 00:32:19,330
And if your sibling is to die, then
often mum and dad still have each other,

521
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,540
but you kind of have lost your person.

522
00:32:23,410 --> 00:32:28,250
And so you're feeling quite isolated, um,
and if they've been sick for a really long

523
00:32:28,250 --> 00:32:32,109
time, and life was hard, and you know,
they're at the hospital all the time, and

524
00:32:32,109 --> 00:32:35,590
you didn't have a lot of attention from
mum and dad, or a lot of consistency.

525
00:32:36,270 --> 00:32:40,120
After they die, you might be feeling
like things got a little bit easier.

526
00:32:41,125 --> 00:32:44,255
And you've got a little bit of attention
back and so then you'd be feeling some

527
00:32:44,265 --> 00:32:48,495
guilt and shame around having those
feelings and you know the times when

528
00:32:48,495 --> 00:32:52,605
perhaps if it was an older sibling
suddenly you turn an age that means

529
00:32:52,605 --> 00:32:57,095
you're older than they ever got to be and
those types of challenges for siblings.

530
00:32:57,740 --> 00:33:01,860
So, yeah, and I guess for teenagers, the
other thing is that this is a time when

531
00:33:01,860 --> 00:33:03,250
they're supposed to be individuating.

532
00:33:03,300 --> 00:33:07,030
This is the time when they are supposed
to not want to hang out with their

533
00:33:07,030 --> 00:33:11,070
parents and you don't know anything and
your friends know everything and trying

534
00:33:11,070 --> 00:33:12,689
to work out who they are in the world.

535
00:33:13,220 --> 00:33:18,190
And so experiencing the death of someone
in their family, they still on one.

536
00:33:18,620 --> 00:33:22,380
Kind of 1 part of them really wants to
still individually and push everyone away.

537
00:33:22,950 --> 00:33:24,120
But the other part of them.

538
00:33:24,460 --> 00:33:28,330
Feels like the world is a bit of an unsafe
place and they feel a bit vulnerable

539
00:33:28,330 --> 00:33:32,109
and they're wanting to kind of keep
that connection with the people in

540
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,710
their life, which is kind of contrary.

541
00:33:36,010 --> 00:33:39,730
To what's going on, so this is
push and pull dynamic that is

542
00:33:39,730 --> 00:33:41,500
just kind of out of balance.

543
00:33:41,500 --> 00:33:41,730
Right?

544
00:33:41,730 --> 00:33:45,800
And so it makes everyone feel
uncomfortable and angry and sad and cross.

545
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,410
And so it's a bit of a
perfect storm for teenagers.

546
00:33:50,300 --> 00:33:51,120
What do you think, Lauren?

547
00:33:51,930 --> 00:33:54,850
Lauren: Couldn't have said that
any way, not even half as good

548
00:33:54,850 --> 00:33:56,110
as what you just said, Shelley.

549
00:33:58,530 --> 00:34:02,920
Catherine: It's really insightful how
you're describing the challenges at

550
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:07,599
each age group because they are very
unique at each age group, aren't they?

551
00:34:08,389 --> 00:34:11,489
The things that they may be
experiencing and also depending

552
00:34:11,490 --> 00:34:15,240
on who is their loved one that
they've lost in that relationship.

553
00:34:15,830 --> 00:34:20,300
So it's, it's very insightful
given, given the fact that there

554
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:24,500
is so much complexity and I'm, I'm
going to put you on the spot here.

555
00:34:24,500 --> 00:34:25,510
So my apologies.

556
00:34:25,910 --> 00:34:31,530
Do you think that communication is the
key regardless of what level they're at?

557
00:34:31,539 --> 00:34:33,450
Like is, is that the thing?

558
00:34:33,749 --> 00:34:38,269
Like what's, what is there one
magic thing or a bag of them?

559
00:34:41,939 --> 00:34:44,889
Lauren: Oh, I think communication
is really important, but of course,

560
00:34:44,949 --> 00:34:48,169
how you might communicate to a
five year old is going to be.

561
00:34:48,540 --> 00:34:54,360
Extraordinarily different to a 17 year
old or a 12 year old and, you know, and

562
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,219
I think that's one of the great things
with Lionheart is that it gets, um, people

563
00:34:58,219 --> 00:35:02,290
to be able to talk about it in a way,
you know, using their words and helps,

564
00:35:02,549 --> 00:35:07,450
and Lionheart helps them to develop that
language and those words and that way in

565
00:35:07,450 --> 00:35:11,520
the family to talk about things because
it's not something that necessarily

566
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,010
families talk about well before.

567
00:35:14,095 --> 00:35:17,165
hand or that they've, even
when there is a death, that

568
00:35:17,165 --> 00:35:18,995
they do talk about it well now.

569
00:35:18,995 --> 00:35:23,705
And so having that and having some of
that practice and developing some of

570
00:35:23,705 --> 00:35:29,025
those skills and that it's okay to kind of
for it to be an uncomfortable discussion

571
00:35:29,085 --> 00:35:32,695
or to have a tricky conversation,
but it's much better to have that

572
00:35:32,695 --> 00:35:34,505
conversation than to not have it.

573
00:35:34,515 --> 00:35:37,415
So that's one of the amazing
things that I think Lionheart

574
00:35:37,435 --> 00:35:39,085
does offer to the families.

575
00:35:41,665 --> 00:35:46,595
Shelly: We offer this idea of a follow up
question, so if we wanted to talk about

576
00:35:46,655 --> 00:35:51,695
anything uncomfortable right now, as the
adult, I would provide the information

577
00:35:52,134 --> 00:35:56,825
and say, if at any point you have a follow
up question, You can just come and say,

578
00:35:56,825 --> 00:36:00,285
Hey, mom, I have a follow up question,
as opposed to saying, remember that

579
00:36:00,325 --> 00:36:01,895
thing you talked to me about last week?

580
00:36:01,895 --> 00:36:05,605
And I just, like, they can just come
and say, I have a follow up question.

581
00:36:05,685 --> 00:36:07,535
My question is such and such.

582
00:36:07,894 --> 00:36:09,505
And then I can answer that as best I can.

583
00:36:09,945 --> 00:36:12,674
I'll go away and have a think
about that and come back.

584
00:36:13,414 --> 00:36:17,835
Because 1 of the things we definitely
note with kids is that they're

585
00:36:18,325 --> 00:36:20,585
much better at grief than adults.

586
00:36:21,130 --> 00:36:25,370
And they're much better at talking about
death and dying because for them it's just

587
00:36:25,370 --> 00:36:27,310
another thing that happened on a Tuesday.

588
00:36:27,650 --> 00:36:30,040
They haven't learnt to
be awkward about it yet.

589
00:36:30,650 --> 00:36:35,340
And so they're really happy to, like,
tell you lots of details that perhaps

590
00:36:35,340 --> 00:36:36,720
adults wouldn't tell you about.

591
00:36:37,030 --> 00:36:39,030
They're happy to tell you about
how they're feeling about it,

592
00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:41,070
what they're wearing, who's there.

593
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,509
So it's, it's lovely to
be able to harness that.

594
00:36:44,510 --> 00:36:48,200
But the other thing they're really
good at is, and I can't remember who

595
00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:51,710
recently just put out a really good
video, a little YouTube video about

596
00:36:51,710 --> 00:36:57,100
this, but it talks about how children
can jump in and out of puddles of grief.

597
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,090
So they kind of can visit their grief
for a little while, and then they just go

598
00:37:01,090 --> 00:37:04,010
off and play, or visit their grief for a
little while, and say, what's for dinner?

599
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,170
And adults will often say to us, like,
I don't know if they understand, because

600
00:37:08,170 --> 00:37:12,060
they cried for half a second, and then
they were out the back kicking the ball.

601
00:37:12,370 --> 00:37:16,160
Whereas as adults, we kind of get in our
grief boat, and we're very committed to

602
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,090
our grief boat, and we will like row that
boat for, you know, a very long time.

603
00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:25,019
But kids just kind of dip in and out,
which is such a healthy kind of way to

604
00:37:25,029 --> 00:37:26,260
live your life when you're grieving.

605
00:37:28,470 --> 00:37:32,030
Catherine: Just to even
know that is, is amazing.

606
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:37,099
And I like the analogy that you use
that you've seen of the puddles,

607
00:37:37,130 --> 00:37:40,290
like that's great that they can
kind of like jump in and out of it.

608
00:37:40,660 --> 00:37:44,840
And yet, yeah, as adults, I have
been guilty of being in a grief

609
00:37:44,890 --> 00:37:49,710
boat once in a while, so I do, I
do understand that one as well.

610
00:37:49,930 --> 00:37:53,630
So yeah, that's, that's really lovely
imagery that you've used there, Shelley.

611
00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:56,479
Now, Lauren, you've delivered a TEDx talk.

612
00:37:56,630 --> 00:38:02,390
Uh, Kings Park talk where you spoke
about the six myths about grief to

613
00:38:02,390 --> 00:38:04,400
bust for yourself and your loved ones.

614
00:38:04,989 --> 00:38:06,800
And you did this in 2022.

615
00:38:07,350 --> 00:38:10,689
What are some of the myths
that we might have about grief?

616
00:38:11,590 --> 00:38:14,329
Lauren: Yeah, there's certainly a
lot more than six, but obviously

617
00:38:14,330 --> 00:38:18,220
to keep it to a short talk, we
just sort of, I focused on six.

618
00:38:18,690 --> 00:38:19,470
I think there's.

619
00:38:19,740 --> 00:38:24,400
A lot of myths about grief or a lot of
things that people assume about grief

620
00:38:24,430 --> 00:38:28,760
that are not necessarily right, or in fact
that there could be much more evidence

621
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:30,600
that those things are completely wrong.

622
00:38:31,079 --> 00:38:34,740
I think one idea is that, you know,
grief is the same for everyone.

623
00:38:34,749 --> 00:38:37,279
Grief is grief because I grieve this way.

624
00:38:37,279 --> 00:38:39,170
You must grieve that way as well.

625
00:38:39,210 --> 00:38:40,600
And instead of.

626
00:38:41,450 --> 00:38:43,440
Thinking that grief is
actually quite unique.

627
00:38:43,470 --> 00:38:44,720
Each of us is unique.

628
00:38:44,780 --> 00:38:49,460
So, and each loss we experience or
each death we experience is unique.

629
00:38:50,380 --> 00:38:53,500
So, the way we will experience it
is unique and it doesn't have to be

630
00:38:53,500 --> 00:38:56,910
exactly the same as everyone else
and that's all completely fine.

631
00:38:57,230 --> 00:39:01,150
So, there's no one way or one right
way that we then have to do things.

632
00:39:01,150 --> 00:39:04,540
You have to do it this way or you have to
do it that way or you're doing it wrong.

633
00:39:05,090 --> 00:39:08,580
I think another big one is that
people think of grief as an emotion

634
00:39:08,580 --> 00:39:11,990
or as a single emotion instead of it
being a bunch of different emotions.

635
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:16,010
Emotions across a whole spectrum,
obviously things like sadness and

636
00:39:16,340 --> 00:39:19,160
guilt, but also it could be relief.

637
00:39:19,180 --> 00:39:23,040
It could be, you know, it could
be so many things, but it also

638
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:24,940
affects us in so many other ways.

639
00:39:24,950 --> 00:39:26,350
It can affect us physically.

640
00:39:26,359 --> 00:39:27,800
It can affect the way we think.

641
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:32,030
It can affect us, you know,
financially, socially, it's not just

642
00:39:32,100 --> 00:39:34,900
an emotion or an emotional reaction.

643
00:39:35,410 --> 00:39:39,140
Another big one is that this idea
there are distinct stages to grief

644
00:39:39,140 --> 00:39:44,440
and we have to go through each stage
in and achieve each stage and then

645
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:50,590
move on to the next stage in this
sort of very linear step wise fashion

646
00:39:50,590 --> 00:39:52,250
and that's not the case either.

647
00:39:52,250 --> 00:39:53,989
It's sort of a bit all over the place.

648
00:39:54,410 --> 00:39:58,475
Most people when they're talking about
grief will say, They might, instead

649
00:39:58,475 --> 00:40:01,975
of saying it in this step kind of
way, they'll say, well, it comes in

650
00:40:01,975 --> 00:40:04,745
waves, or it's like a roller coaster.

651
00:40:04,795 --> 00:40:08,145
They sort of evoke those
kinds of images instead.

652
00:40:08,765 --> 00:40:11,235
Another one is the timeline of grief.

653
00:40:11,265 --> 00:40:14,374
There's this idea that grief should
be done within a certain number of

654
00:40:14,385 --> 00:40:16,454
days or a certain number of weeks.

655
00:40:16,454 --> 00:40:21,225
And any kind of grief that hangs around
after that is obviously hugely abnormal.

656
00:40:21,225 --> 00:40:23,065
And, and that's not true either.

657
00:40:23,455 --> 00:40:26,445
Grief is part of who we
are, and we're part of.

658
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:31,030
We're the product of our entire histories
of losses and successes and challenges

659
00:40:31,030 --> 00:40:32,750
and all the things that have come to us.

660
00:40:32,790 --> 00:40:37,440
And it's perfectly fine that particularly
it could be uncertain days or certain

661
00:40:37,739 --> 00:40:39,850
memories or certain pieces of music.

662
00:40:39,850 --> 00:40:42,559
And then it reminds us
of who, who has died.

663
00:40:42,559 --> 00:40:44,560
And that's perfectly fine and normal.

664
00:40:45,110 --> 00:40:49,190
We don't, that doesn't mean something's
wrong with us and that we're going crazy.

665
00:40:49,650 --> 00:40:54,725
So I don't really like words like,
Closure, move on, letting go,

666
00:40:54,765 --> 00:40:57,205
you know, recovery from grief.

667
00:40:57,225 --> 00:41:02,005
I don't tend to use words like that, that
imply that there is an end point to grief.

668
00:41:02,005 --> 00:41:06,135
I think of it more of as a process and
experience and as part of who we are.

669
00:41:06,815 --> 00:41:10,515
There's also the idea that, you know,
I suppose one of the myths is that

670
00:41:10,915 --> 00:41:15,625
grief is always really hard, and of
course it is hard, but there's also

671
00:41:15,725 --> 00:41:19,715
can be, there also can be things
where we can experience personal

672
00:41:19,715 --> 00:41:23,935
growth or become more compassionate
or value things differently in life.

673
00:41:23,935 --> 00:41:26,594
And there's those kinds of
things that happen as well.

674
00:41:26,854 --> 00:41:29,335
And there's many, many other
myths, things like, you know,

675
00:41:29,335 --> 00:41:30,955
young children don't grieve.

676
00:41:30,955 --> 00:41:32,305
So we don't need to worry about that.

677
00:41:32,325 --> 00:41:32,585
them.

678
00:41:32,585 --> 00:41:35,025
They're resilient anyway, so who cares?

679
00:41:35,345 --> 00:41:38,055
Or really old people,
who cares about them?

680
00:41:38,065 --> 00:41:41,565
Or I don't know that women
always grieve much more than men.

681
00:41:41,585 --> 00:41:46,225
I think women grieve in general in ways
that might be a little bit different to

682
00:41:46,225 --> 00:41:50,395
men, but I don't think they necessarily
grieve more or that men grieve less.

683
00:41:50,414 --> 00:41:51,645
It's just differently.

684
00:41:52,064 --> 00:41:55,054
Yeah, there's a whole host
of different kinds of myths.

685
00:41:55,084 --> 00:42:01,330
And so what I try and do and Shelley
as well is to dismantle Those, those

686
00:42:01,330 --> 00:42:05,040
myths of grief, because I do think they
can be quite dangerous with people are

687
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,910
judging themselves to this supposed
standard that they think is real.

688
00:42:08,910 --> 00:42:12,140
And they think therefore, you
know, that they're going crazy

689
00:42:12,380 --> 00:42:13,839
or something's wrong with them.

690
00:42:14,099 --> 00:42:17,279
And yeah, so that's why it can be
really powerful to provide that

691
00:42:17,779 --> 00:42:22,990
psychoeducation or that information to
children and to families about grief,

692
00:42:22,990 --> 00:42:24,670
that this is actually what it's like.

693
00:42:24,670 --> 00:42:26,430
Ignore those things you've heard.

694
00:42:26,670 --> 00:42:27,669
They're probably not right.

695
00:42:28,565 --> 00:42:31,785
Instead, know this kind of stuff,
and that's really important.

696
00:42:34,225 --> 00:42:36,575
Catherine: Yeah, there's some,
some big ones that you, uh,

697
00:42:36,665 --> 00:42:40,325
certainly, uh, tackled there, so
I really appreciate that, Lauren.

698
00:42:40,845 --> 00:42:47,184
One thing that I'd like your, your
opinion on is children attending funerals.

699
00:42:47,354 --> 00:42:51,015
Historically, some people have,
you know, been told in the past

700
00:42:51,025 --> 00:42:52,675
not to have children attend.

701
00:42:53,125 --> 00:42:53,615
What's your thoughts?

702
00:42:55,665 --> 00:42:59,675
Lauren: So my thoughts are based on,
there's a charity in the UK called

703
00:42:59,675 --> 00:43:04,915
Winston's Wish and they're a bereavement
charity and they, many years ago,

704
00:43:05,085 --> 00:43:10,314
surveyed several hundred children
who had gone through their services

705
00:43:10,334 --> 00:43:14,655
and asked them about the funeral and
none said that they regretted going.

706
00:43:14,885 --> 00:43:20,275
But many of them were very upset still or
regretful still that they hadn't had the

707
00:43:20,275 --> 00:43:22,905
opportunity to go if they wanted to go.

708
00:43:23,364 --> 00:43:27,955
So the general advice that I would give,
and obviously Shelley might clarify or add

709
00:43:27,984 --> 00:43:33,915
or negate what I would say, but I would
say, explain to the child what it is.

710
00:43:34,735 --> 00:43:36,105
So, who's going to be there?

711
00:43:36,125 --> 00:43:37,095
Where is it going to be?

712
00:43:37,105 --> 00:43:38,475
What are people going to be wearing?

713
00:43:38,475 --> 00:43:40,055
How might they be behaving?

714
00:43:40,615 --> 00:43:43,935
So, they're not going in without
having some understanding.

715
00:43:43,955 --> 00:43:46,735
And then give them the opportunity
to say, Yeah, I do want to go.

716
00:43:47,055 --> 00:43:48,704
Or actually, I'd prefer to stay home.

717
00:43:48,705 --> 00:43:49,594
Is that okay?

718
00:43:50,274 --> 00:43:51,615
And give them that option.

719
00:43:51,934 --> 00:43:56,320
If you're talking about very young
children, If there's someone at the

720
00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,700
funeral who you're quite close to,
maybe see if, is there someone else,

721
00:44:01,140 --> 00:44:04,950
like a close friend or someone else a
little bit, maybe a further distance

722
00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:08,900
away from the person who has died, who
can help you look after that child.

723
00:44:08,929 --> 00:44:12,490
So if that child wants to go for
a walk around or whatever, someone

724
00:44:12,490 --> 00:44:15,950
can be there to do that so you don't
miss out on the funeral yourself.

725
00:44:16,215 --> 00:44:19,595
Because you need to be there for you,
for someone who's very close to you.

726
00:44:20,085 --> 00:44:22,375
So I think that's another
consideration as well.

727
00:44:22,615 --> 00:44:25,085
But yeah, just explain it to the kids.

728
00:44:25,085 --> 00:44:29,624
And I think in the past people like
to protect children from these topics

729
00:44:29,625 --> 00:44:34,174
understandably, because they do think
it's kind of tricky and challenging.

730
00:44:34,375 --> 00:44:39,085
But yeah, the, the best advice that
I, from my understanding is to explain

731
00:44:39,085 --> 00:44:40,965
it and just say, would you like to go?

732
00:44:42,265 --> 00:44:43,225
And that's okay.

733
00:44:44,915 --> 00:44:46,065
Michelle, what would you say?

734
00:44:46,635 --> 00:44:47,245
Shelly: Yeah, I agree.

735
00:44:47,275 --> 00:44:51,125
I think that's great advice and the
feedback we've had from children

736
00:44:51,165 --> 00:44:56,134
and the children who understand kind
of the funeral experience the best

737
00:44:56,145 --> 00:44:59,934
tends to be kids who've actually been
involved in the funeral in some way,

738
00:45:00,415 --> 00:45:04,015
involved in the planning, or, you know,
Have written a card that's gone into

739
00:45:04,125 --> 00:45:09,745
the coffin or written a note that's
been read aloud, you know, in a way

740
00:45:09,935 --> 00:45:14,165
that they felt they've meaningfully
contributed to it as something

741
00:45:14,165 --> 00:45:17,164
that they were able to do for their
brother or sister or their mum or dad.

742
00:45:17,645 --> 00:45:21,054
I imagine from what I have, from my
experience, the only time that it's.

743
00:45:22,635 --> 00:45:27,055
Kind of not encouraged for children
to, to attend funerals is if there's,

744
00:45:27,395 --> 00:45:30,885
you know, an expected high level of
like drug and alcohol issues in the

745
00:45:30,885 --> 00:45:35,424
family or family violence, or if there's
expected to be conflict or if it's

746
00:45:35,675 --> 00:45:41,754
in, if there's expected that in that
ritual, that the child will be negatively

747
00:45:41,764 --> 00:45:45,434
impacted in any way that might impact
them into the future and their future

748
00:45:45,434 --> 00:45:46,774
experiences of attending funerals.

749
00:45:47,610 --> 00:45:50,800
Then I would say just have an extra
think about it, and I guess have a

750
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,460
few more people in the family talk
about it before making a decision.

751
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:59,480
But overall, I think, you know, as
Lauren said, I've never, I think I've

752
00:45:59,510 --> 00:46:02,620
once at camp heard a child say they
wish they hadn't been to the funeral,

753
00:46:02,620 --> 00:46:03,900
they wish they hadn't been involved.

754
00:46:07,109 --> 00:46:09,729
Catherine: Thank you for
giving your insight on, on that

755
00:46:09,730 --> 00:46:10,260
Shelly: topic.

756
00:46:10,860 --> 00:46:13,210
But, sorry, what I should say though,
is do what's right for your family.

757
00:46:13,590 --> 00:46:15,820
Like if that's not right for
your family, and that doesn't

758
00:46:15,860 --> 00:46:17,460
fit right for you, that's okay.

759
00:46:17,500 --> 00:46:18,479
So I guess the other thing is.

760
00:46:19,265 --> 00:46:22,695
Every family is so different,
and every ritual is so different.

761
00:46:23,005 --> 00:46:28,695
So if our advice and what we've seen in WA
doesn't fit for you, that's okay as well.

762
00:46:29,115 --> 00:46:32,435
You're not going to damage your child
by not taking them to the funeral.

763
00:46:32,845 --> 00:46:35,804
And there, you know, there's probably
a whole bunch of really good reasons

764
00:46:35,804 --> 00:46:37,765
why families decide otherwise.

765
00:46:38,064 --> 00:46:41,895
Catherine: Now you've mentioned that
you've just recently rewritten your wills.

766
00:46:43,075 --> 00:46:45,875
Lauren, have you done anything
to prepare for your own death?

767
00:46:47,275 --> 00:46:51,230
Lauren: So I did write a will,
but it was a long time ago, and

768
00:46:51,230 --> 00:46:53,920
I probably should update it now.

769
00:46:54,220 --> 00:47:00,130
I guess the main thing is in my family, so
I have two children who are now 19 and 14.

770
00:47:00,180 --> 00:47:03,669
So they've grown up with me talking
about these issues all the time.

771
00:47:04,180 --> 00:47:08,500
And you know, the older one, obviously,
if something happened to me tomorrow,

772
00:47:08,510 --> 00:47:12,870
and I died tomorrow, they're still
quite young, but yeah, they, they know.

773
00:47:13,475 --> 00:47:16,845
We've had that discussion as Shelly
was mentioning before in her family

774
00:47:16,845 --> 00:47:20,345
about, well, if something happened
to me or something happened to

775
00:47:20,345 --> 00:47:22,124
dad, you know, where would you go?

776
00:47:22,144 --> 00:47:23,554
Who would look after you?

777
00:47:23,905 --> 00:47:27,714
So I think, yeah, it's more about
talking to them about not so much me

778
00:47:27,715 --> 00:47:33,205
preparing for say my dying or my death,
but preparing for my absence in, in the

779
00:47:33,205 --> 00:47:37,215
world and the impact on the people who
it would have the biggest impact on.

780
00:47:37,285 --> 00:47:43,715
And, you know, I'm, I feel, I'm privileged
in a way that I'm in a situation where,

781
00:47:44,385 --> 00:47:48,035
unlike a lot of families, where something
like that happens and then they also have

782
00:47:48,035 --> 00:47:52,374
to, you know, sell the house or move,
move houses and move schools and so on.

783
00:47:52,805 --> 00:47:55,874
I know that my, my kids
wouldn't have to move house.

784
00:47:56,185 --> 00:47:57,355
They wouldn't have that.

785
00:47:57,365 --> 00:48:01,095
So a bit, you know, huge, there would
be huge number of changes in their

786
00:48:01,095 --> 00:48:03,295
life, but not everything would change.

787
00:48:04,355 --> 00:48:07,645
So I think, yeah, I feel
quite, happy about that.

788
00:48:07,645 --> 00:48:10,315
And I know not everyone
is in that situation.

789
00:48:10,825 --> 00:48:11,195
Yeah.

790
00:48:11,195 --> 00:48:12,585
So I think that's probably the main thing.

791
00:48:12,585 --> 00:48:14,025
I don't think I've done anything more.

792
00:48:14,054 --> 00:48:17,755
I mean, I do love to walk around
cemeteries and sort of imagine

793
00:48:17,755 --> 00:48:19,295
what I might like to have.

794
00:48:19,295 --> 00:48:22,314
What kind of, you know, would I
like to have this kind of burial or

795
00:48:22,314 --> 00:48:23,915
would I like to have this instead?

796
00:48:24,424 --> 00:48:28,465
And I think they're lovely places to go
and lovely places to walk around with kids

797
00:48:28,825 --> 00:48:33,834
and look at the headstones and see the
stories that Maybe not all mums do that,

798
00:48:33,834 --> 00:48:37,550
but probably Shelley and I are the type
of mums who Who do these kinds of things?

799
00:48:37,550 --> 00:48:38,969
That's right.

800
00:48:38,970 --> 00:48:39,210
Okay.

801
00:48:40,430 --> 00:48:41,680
Yeah, that's probably it.

802
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:45,500
I don't think I've done anything
more, anything that's a lot more

803
00:48:45,500 --> 00:48:46,680
than what a lot of people might do.

804
00:48:49,335 --> 00:48:54,885
Catherine: Well, given the, the stats
are around about 46 percent not having

805
00:48:54,885 --> 00:49:00,145
wills, I'd say that you two have done a
lot more than probably quite a few people.

806
00:49:00,205 --> 00:49:05,764
So, but I, I have to say, yes, I am
also, uh, one of those people that

807
00:49:05,765 --> 00:49:11,394
drag their family about around, uh,
either church yards or cemeteries

808
00:49:11,434 --> 00:49:13,324
in Milan actually most recently.

809
00:49:13,614 --> 00:49:14,944
And that was amazing.

810
00:49:15,274 --> 00:49:18,364
Uh, so yes, I, I too am guilty of that.

811
00:49:18,925 --> 00:49:23,645
Given your, your experiences both
personally and professionally, do

812
00:49:23,645 --> 00:49:28,085
you have anything that you'd like to
provide as encouragement or advice

813
00:49:28,754 --> 00:49:33,465
to, to families that have children
and, and in dealing with a loved one?

814
00:49:33,465 --> 00:49:34,034
I think

815
00:49:37,615 --> 00:49:43,444
Shelly: I would just say just be gentle
with yourself and be gentle with others

816
00:49:44,124 --> 00:49:50,435
because As Lauren said before, no two
people grieve the same way, and I don't

817
00:49:50,445 --> 00:49:54,385
think I've ever met a family where, so
say it was my family, so there's myself,

818
00:49:54,385 --> 00:50:00,005
my husband, and we have three kids, nine,
six, and three, and everybody grieves in a

819
00:50:00,005 --> 00:50:03,734
different rhythm, and everybody has a good
day and a bad day at a different time.

820
00:50:05,050 --> 00:50:12,930
So, to have five grieving people in one
fishbowl of a house is really challenging.

821
00:50:13,310 --> 00:50:16,560
And you know, the stats for kind
of relationship breakdowns and

822
00:50:16,580 --> 00:50:19,170
all sorts of things are high.

823
00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:23,050
So I think I would just say,
be really kind to yourself and

824
00:50:23,070 --> 00:50:24,189
be really kind with others.

825
00:50:24,925 --> 00:50:26,955
And do what's right for your family.

826
00:50:27,235 --> 00:50:30,305
You're going to hear a lot of shoulda,
coulda, woulda, why didn't you.

827
00:50:30,625 --> 00:50:35,294
You know, we're a really judgy society
and we are judgy around grief as well.

828
00:50:35,345 --> 00:50:39,245
You either, you know, you got over
it too quickly or you hung on to it

829
00:50:39,365 --> 00:50:42,845
too long or you were too, you cried
too much or you didn't cry enough or

830
00:50:42,845 --> 00:50:45,285
you talked to your kids about it too
much or you didn't tell them enough.

831
00:50:45,465 --> 00:50:49,225
Like no one's happy with, you
know, how, how we do things.

832
00:50:49,665 --> 00:50:52,495
But, and also there's no manual.

833
00:50:52,535 --> 00:50:55,525
Like once you become a parent,
there's no, If you ever experience

834
00:50:55,545 --> 00:50:57,595
really acute traumatic grief.

835
00:50:58,595 --> 00:51:01,935
This is how you manage your grief while
you're tending to the grief of your

836
00:51:01,935 --> 00:51:04,445
children and equally for grandparents.

837
00:51:04,555 --> 00:51:08,215
So we feel really strongly for
grandparents because once you're

838
00:51:08,215 --> 00:51:11,094
a grandparent, you're kind of not
in that power position anymore.

839
00:51:11,834 --> 00:51:15,415
You don't get to be the decision maker
that you were when you were the parent.

840
00:51:15,904 --> 00:51:20,095
And so you're watching all of these things
unfold and you might be able to contribute

841
00:51:20,095 --> 00:51:23,834
to the discussion, but ultimately
you don't get to make the decisions.

842
00:51:23,835 --> 00:51:24,235
And so.

843
00:51:24,985 --> 00:51:28,005
If someone was to die, you know, your
heart breaks for yourself, and then your

844
00:51:28,025 --> 00:51:32,645
heart breaks for your child, and then
breaks for your grandchild, and you feel

845
00:51:33,005 --> 00:51:36,614
a little disenfranchised in that grief
because you're not in the power position.

846
00:51:36,614 --> 00:51:38,364
So I think just.

847
00:51:39,885 --> 00:51:43,315
Accept that everyone is doing the very
best they can, and if they could be

848
00:51:43,315 --> 00:51:44,695
doing better, they would be doing better.

849
00:51:45,165 --> 00:51:48,585
And just kind of, yeah, approach
it with as much grace as

850
00:51:48,625 --> 00:51:50,455
you can, would be my advice.

851
00:51:51,995 --> 00:51:56,335
Lauren: Yeah, I really like that, and I
would probably just add on that if, if

852
00:51:56,335 --> 00:52:00,714
you don't already have it as a topic of
conversation in your family, maybe just

853
00:52:00,714 --> 00:52:05,145
talk about it sometimes, just like we
talk about what's happening in sports or

854
00:52:05,145 --> 00:52:11,890
fashion or finances or the environment You
know, all the things that we talk about,

855
00:52:12,010 --> 00:52:16,130
why not also have this as just a normal
topic of conversation in the family?

856
00:52:16,650 --> 00:52:19,490
That's what I would, I
would like everyone to have.

857
00:52:22,290 --> 00:52:26,314
Shelly: My kids last night, Lauren, so it
was my, we had a birthday party and my son

858
00:52:26,625 --> 00:52:31,005
Almost seven year old got lots of Barbie
and she was so cross at her three year old

859
00:52:31,005 --> 00:52:36,325
sister that she said to her, if I die, I
am not leaving you my Barbies and you do

860
00:52:36,325 --> 00:52:37,635
not have permission to play with them.

861
00:52:40,595 --> 00:52:41,295
Exactly.

862
00:52:41,545 --> 00:52:42,385
Fantastic.

863
00:52:43,184 --> 00:52:43,995
I was so proud of her.

864
00:52:43,995 --> 00:52:44,824
I was like, got it.

865
00:52:44,834 --> 00:52:45,505
I'm writing it down.

866
00:52:46,755 --> 00:52:50,445
Catherine: Now, Shelly, I understand
you have a new program called ROAR.

867
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:59,990
And I believe that's
w, that's RAW to ROAR.

868
00:53:00,580 --> 00:53:02,440
Can you tell me a little
bit about it, please?

869
00:53:04,055 --> 00:53:04,585
Shelly: Absolutely.

870
00:53:04,835 --> 00:53:09,515
Uh, Roar to Roar is really
special to us at Lionheart.

871
00:53:10,165 --> 00:53:16,455
Our programs to date, so our new family
camp, our returning family camp, our

872
00:53:16,484 --> 00:53:22,445
online lounge and our drumbeat program
have always been for families at

873
00:53:22,514 --> 00:53:24,654
least six months after time of death.

874
00:53:25,275 --> 00:53:29,795
Because these programs are peer
support, um, and you hear other people's

875
00:53:29,795 --> 00:53:34,914
stories, and you're expected to be able
to tell your own story to a certain

876
00:53:34,915 --> 00:53:40,975
degree, then we think that anything
before six months is a bit too soon.

877
00:53:41,244 --> 00:53:46,035
And so when families come to Lionheart,
they're always so appreciative to join the

878
00:53:46,035 --> 00:53:50,135
family, and being part of the Lionheart
family means they receive support.

879
00:53:50,415 --> 00:53:51,545
Forever after that.

880
00:53:51,975 --> 00:53:56,865
However, so many families say, I
wish we'd had this support before.

881
00:53:57,425 --> 00:54:01,595
I wish that we'd had someone to talk
to at the time of death, or if it's

882
00:54:01,595 --> 00:54:05,395
an expected death before death to know
that we could have these conversations,

883
00:54:05,445 --> 00:54:08,885
or we could do this planning,
or we could prepare in some way.

884
00:54:09,395 --> 00:54:13,945
And so after receiving that feedback time
and time and time and time again, since

885
00:54:14,115 --> 00:54:19,255
we started, we started to have a look
around and see what other organizations

886
00:54:19,294 --> 00:54:25,815
provide this type of psychoeducation
support for parents, for teens, for

887
00:54:25,844 --> 00:54:31,325
grandparents, for schools, and we found
that there was no one organization that

888
00:54:31,325 --> 00:54:33,675
kind of And Addresses grief for everyone.

889
00:54:34,175 --> 00:54:37,465
So, you know, the palliative care
WA provides a wonderful support

890
00:54:37,645 --> 00:54:40,654
in the palliative care space
and silver chain and hospitals.

891
00:54:40,654 --> 00:54:46,985
And, but what we're finding, what we
found was that families, particularly

892
00:54:47,155 --> 00:54:50,434
if they've been in a hospital, involved
with a hospital setting for a long time,

893
00:54:51,265 --> 00:54:54,735
the day after their loved one had died,
they kind of found themselves standing in

894
00:54:54,735 --> 00:54:59,595
their lounge room without their person,
without their role, without a purpose, not

895
00:54:59,595 --> 00:55:01,474
really knowing what to do with themselves.

896
00:55:02,025 --> 00:55:06,425
And as a social worker who works in
hospital as well, I know that you can't

897
00:55:06,435 --> 00:55:10,344
be that person you're, you're having
to get tend to and deal with the people

898
00:55:10,345 --> 00:55:13,944
you're working with on that day, the very
next day, and the next people who come

899
00:55:13,945 --> 00:55:17,545
through the hospital, you can't be in the
lounge room with those people that you've

900
00:55:17,545 --> 00:55:19,525
been working for sometimes for years.

901
00:55:20,130 --> 00:55:27,500
And so, Raw to Raw, Lionheart, Grief
Pathway, was developed by myself and

902
00:55:27,500 --> 00:55:31,659
Lauren and Kristy Felsi, who's also a
psychologist, clinical psychologist,

903
00:55:32,210 --> 00:55:37,950
and we developed a program from time
of death, if it's an unexpected death,

904
00:55:38,529 --> 00:55:43,860
or prior to death, if someone has a
terminal illness, that we walk through

905
00:55:43,870 --> 00:55:50,495
with families, And help them through
psychoeducation, uh, to what's important

906
00:55:50,495 --> 00:55:52,325
to your family in making memories.

907
00:55:52,615 --> 00:55:55,115
How are you going talking to
the children in your families?

908
00:55:55,145 --> 00:55:56,855
How are the grandparents going?

909
00:55:57,575 --> 00:55:58,635
What about your workplace?

910
00:55:58,655 --> 00:56:00,944
Do you have a plan with your workplace?

911
00:56:01,310 --> 00:56:05,620
In my family, if my husband was
someone with a terminal illness, I'd

912
00:56:05,620 --> 00:56:10,330
be saying, I don't know where your
superannuation is, and I don't know

913
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:11,940
who all our insurances are through.

914
00:56:12,190 --> 00:56:16,119
And he would say to me, I don't know what
after school care I got girls go to, and

915
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:18,100
I don't know what dentist the girls go to.

916
00:56:18,100 --> 00:56:21,120
And so making sure that
everybody is aware of.

917
00:56:22,385 --> 00:56:25,775
all of the things and can be as
prepared and planned as they want

918
00:56:25,815 --> 00:56:27,265
to be or feel they need to be.

919
00:56:27,905 --> 00:56:31,445
And then from time of death,
people can dip in and out of that

920
00:56:31,445 --> 00:56:33,255
service as much as they'd like to.

921
00:56:33,745 --> 00:56:38,374
And what's great about this raw to raw
program is say, for example, talking

922
00:56:38,374 --> 00:56:43,264
about children, we can talk with
parents and grandparents about when's

923
00:56:43,325 --> 00:56:44,715
the right time to go back to school.

924
00:56:44,945 --> 00:56:46,675
Should children attend funerals?

925
00:56:46,975 --> 00:56:49,335
How to involve children in the process?

926
00:56:49,705 --> 00:56:52,085
What, what might they be
thinking, um, at the moment?

927
00:56:52,295 --> 00:56:53,695
What questions might they have?

928
00:56:54,045 --> 00:56:55,555
And we can also go into the school.

929
00:56:56,005 --> 00:56:59,455
So we can go into the school and
say either a child has died in

930
00:56:59,455 --> 00:57:01,514
your school community or a teacher.

931
00:57:02,070 --> 00:57:04,880
Or somebody else apparent
as a school community.

932
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:06,070
How do you want to manage this?

933
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:07,640
How can we support your teachers?

934
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:09,320
How can we support your chaplains?

935
00:57:09,390 --> 00:57:10,660
How can we support your students?

936
00:57:11,240 --> 00:57:13,289
What kind of rituals would
you might like to do?

937
00:57:13,820 --> 00:57:16,730
And even further to that, we've
been working with workplaces.

938
00:57:17,685 --> 00:57:21,805
So, if my husband had died, they might
say, Shelly's coming back to work.

939
00:57:22,145 --> 00:57:23,425
How's everyone feeling about that?

940
00:57:23,435 --> 00:57:26,625
Would you like Lionheart to come in
and give an info session to the team

941
00:57:26,765 --> 00:57:31,324
or work with the manager to talk
about a return to work kind of plan?

942
00:57:31,704 --> 00:57:36,702
Because certainly I know, and even though
I work in this space, certainly as a

943
00:57:36,702 --> 00:57:39,189
colleague, you know that do I say nothing.

944
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:40,980
Or do I ask questions?

945
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:42,230
And when do I do that?

946
00:57:42,230 --> 00:57:43,140
What does that look like?

947
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:50,389
So this Raw to Raw program is really about
supporting the entire community around

948
00:57:50,710 --> 00:57:52,680
the death of someone in their community.

949
00:57:53,110 --> 00:57:57,019
Uh, so primarily with the next of
kin, yes, but also with the teenagers,

950
00:57:57,020 --> 00:58:00,379
the children, the grandparents,
schools, uh, and the workplaces.

951
00:58:00,380 --> 00:58:00,919
And

952
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:04,520
Catherine: how is this,
um, program delivered?

953
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:07,010
Is it online or how does it work, Shelley?

954
00:58:07,890 --> 00:58:12,830
Shelly: Yeah, so we, we've received some
pilot funding through Telethon and the

955
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:17,399
Stan Perrin Foundation and with that
funding, we've been able to bring on two

956
00:58:17,399 --> 00:58:21,560
grief coaches, because we're being very
clear, this is not therapy, that this is

957
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:26,460
psychoeducation, so our grief coaches, uh,
are both social workers at the moment, we

958
00:58:26,490 --> 00:58:30,026
had one social worker and one psychologist
and currently they're both social workers

959
00:58:30,026 --> 00:58:36,325
and, um, This is done via telephone,
via video conference, via email, some

960
00:58:36,515 --> 00:58:41,075
people refer just email, and then also
face to face from time to time as well.

961
00:58:42,105 --> 00:58:44,015
WA is very geographically large.

962
00:58:44,765 --> 00:58:48,235
And we want to make sure that we
provide support to everyone in

963
00:58:48,435 --> 00:58:49,705
WA, regardless of where they live.

964
00:58:50,465 --> 00:58:54,385
Um, and so hence the kind of
online nature and platform.

965
00:58:54,795 --> 00:58:57,065
But certainly there is
space for one to one.

966
00:58:57,605 --> 00:59:03,304
And then the other, in the future post
pilot, we'd like to do some group work and

967
00:59:03,355 --> 00:59:05,415
do some more of that peer support as well.

968
00:59:07,095 --> 00:59:11,625
Catherine: And if enough funding, perhaps
expand further from Western Australia?

969
00:59:12,690 --> 00:59:16,220
Shelly: Yeah, we would love that we
definitely have had contact from a

970
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:19,580
couple of different organizations
in the eastern states to say, are

971
00:59:19,580 --> 00:59:22,780
you interested in packaging this
up and and selling it on words?

972
00:59:23,270 --> 00:59:27,019
And I was able to say, the
pilot's been going for less than

973
00:59:27,019 --> 00:59:30,539
a month, and we have about 21
families registered at the moment.

974
00:59:30,539 --> 00:59:34,410
And we definitely will let you know
when we kind of a bit further down the

975
00:59:34,410 --> 00:59:36,080
pilot as to what we're going to do.

976
00:59:36,470 --> 00:59:41,900
But we found that there's just been this
really great need and people have said.

977
00:59:42,650 --> 00:59:45,570
We want to be able to dip in and
out of support as we need it.

978
00:59:45,950 --> 00:59:47,330
We don't want it to be prescribed.

979
00:59:47,330 --> 00:59:49,070
We don't want it to be for
a certain period of time.

980
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:55,360
And so, yeah, I'm really hoping that
the WA community feels supported

981
00:59:55,380 --> 00:59:59,990
and feel like they understand
grief for their whole family.

982
01:00:00,285 --> 01:00:01,925
Better by being part of this project.

983
01:00:03,765 --> 01:00:08,095
Catherine: And what I love about this
program is offering those specialized

984
01:00:08,095 --> 01:00:13,265
skills in grief to organizations that
don't normally have those skill sets.

985
01:00:13,265 --> 01:00:18,044
So, you know, going into your
schools, going into your workplaces

986
01:00:18,044 --> 01:00:22,665
where the teachers and the HR
people, it's not their, their, you

987
01:00:22,665 --> 01:00:25,075
know, wheelhouse to deal with this.

988
01:00:25,150 --> 01:00:31,030
So to be able to actually call on your
services as required is just brilliant.

989
01:00:31,340 --> 01:00:33,990
So, yeah, I can see that
there's a real need for it.

990
01:00:35,245 --> 01:00:39,615
Shelly: I'm so excited for teachers
because I just think, you know, when they

991
01:00:39,615 --> 01:00:41,195
go to teacher school, they don't learn.

992
01:00:42,095 --> 01:00:45,355
There's a front line of everything to
do with our children, so they don't

993
01:00:45,385 --> 01:00:49,754
learn about mental health and they
don't learn about what happens to mom

994
01:00:49,755 --> 01:00:54,285
and dad divorce and what happens when
you have a different cultural kind of

995
01:00:54,295 --> 01:00:56,314
faith than the other person in class.

996
01:00:56,314 --> 01:01:01,185
And, you know, they, they expected to kind
of know a little bit about everything.

997
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:06,010
Um, because they're just on the call,
like, call face kind of day in day out.

998
01:01:06,100 --> 01:01:09,910
So anything we can do to support
teachers, we're all on board for.

999
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:13,870
Catherine: No, that sounds like
an absolutely amazing program.

1000
01:01:13,870 --> 01:01:18,419
And I really hope that you get the
support and funding that you need.

1001
01:01:18,419 --> 01:01:23,400
And, you know, I, I personally being
a Eastern state person, we'd love

1002
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:25,400
to see that rolled out nationally.

1003
01:01:26,090 --> 01:01:26,900
I'll stay tuned.

1004
01:01:27,710 --> 01:01:31,920
And how can people support the work
that you're doing at Lionheart?

1005
01:01:34,225 --> 01:01:39,355
Shelly: Yeah, so I guess, you know,
overall our mission is to create a society

1006
01:01:39,355 --> 01:01:43,895
where grief is not Is seen as a really
normal and healthy response to loss.

1007
01:01:44,585 --> 01:01:49,075
So if you would all talk about it in your
family from time to time and consider

1008
01:01:49,075 --> 01:01:53,125
writing a will or consider discussing
it at the dinner table, that would go a

1009
01:01:53,135 --> 01:01:54,784
long way to helping us with our mission.

1010
01:01:55,195 --> 01:02:00,174
Obviously, as a not for profit, we're
always looking for donations and money.

1011
01:02:00,294 --> 01:02:04,225
So, you know, if you have any
rich aunties or uncles or win the

1012
01:02:04,225 --> 01:02:05,615
lotto, like, please think of us.

1013
01:02:06,245 --> 01:02:09,565
We're always, we're very, uh,
have a very strong volunteer base.

1014
01:02:10,405 --> 01:02:15,305
So if you do live in WA and are looking
for volunteer experience, whether that's

1015
01:02:15,305 --> 01:02:19,905
at camps or behind the scenes or at an
event, we would love to hear from you,

1016
01:02:20,525 --> 01:02:26,285
even just going onto our website or our
social media and commenting or sharing any

1017
01:02:26,295 --> 01:02:29,415
of our social media things would be great.

1018
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:32,720
And, oh, we also, we wrote a
book, we wrote a children's

1019
01:02:32,750 --> 01:02:34,190
book called Finding Fwebbers.

1020
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:38,470
So if you do have any children in your
life who you would like to be able to

1021
01:02:38,470 --> 01:02:44,170
explain death and grief to in, in a
storybook fashion written by Australian

1022
01:02:44,170 --> 01:02:47,459
authors, then jump on our website and
have a look for Finding Fwebbers as well.

1023
01:02:49,430 --> 01:02:50,140
Catherine: That's wonderful.

1024
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:53,830
Well, look, I can't thank you
both enough for your time today.

1025
01:02:53,890 --> 01:02:54,940
Thanks for being with us.

1026
01:02:55,730 --> 01:02:55,980
Lauren: Thank you

1027
01:02:55,980 --> 01:02:56,490
Catherine: so much.

1028
01:02:57,245 --> 01:02:58,295
Thanks so much for having us.

1029
01:03:01,455 --> 01:03:04,875
We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,

1030
01:03:05,175 --> 01:03:06,945
brought to you by Critical Info.

1031
01:03:07,685 --> 01:03:11,975
If you liked the episode, learnt something
new, or were touched by a story you

1032
01:03:11,975 --> 01:03:13,775
heard, we'd love for you to let us know.

1033
01:03:14,015 --> 01:03:17,645
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1034
01:03:17,645 --> 01:03:19,385
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1035
01:03:19,565 --> 01:03:21,125
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1036
01:03:21,670 --> 01:03:25,450
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1037
01:03:25,750 --> 01:03:27,130
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1038
01:03:27,220 --> 01:03:28,210
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1039
01:03:28,210 --> 01:03:32,140
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1040
01:03:32,140 --> 01:03:38,340
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