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Kieran: We did a number of interviews,
radio and print back in those days.

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And this, this, this young woman just
wanted to know like, Oh, this is terrible.

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People with no money and living
on the streets and Ted said,

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well, that's not always the case.

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He said, I'll give you an example.

6
... Read More

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Kieran: We did a number of interviews,
radio and print back in those days.

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And this, this, this young woman just
wanted to know like, Oh, this is terrible.

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People with no money and living
on the streets and Ted said,

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well, that's not always the case.

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He said, I'll give you an example.

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You're new at your job.

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Yes.

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You're in your early twenties.

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Yes.

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Got much money in the bank.

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I'm guessing not.

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No.

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Got a hex deck from uni.

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Oh yeah.

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That'll take a long time to pay off.

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Right.

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You drive a car.

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Yes.

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I'm guessing you're paying that off.

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Oh yes.

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I got a loan from my parents
or something like that.

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And I'm paying that off.

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Great.

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And then he, then unfortunately
for her, he hit her with it.

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And he said, you die tomorrow.

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You will be with me.

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There is nothing for you to pay a
funeral unless someone else steps

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in, whether it be your parents
or an aunt or an uncle, and many.

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In many cases, the thing that
we're seeing these days is we have

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many generations of people with,
with not enough money or no money.

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Catherine: Welcome to don't be caught dead
a podcast, encouraging open conversations

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about dying and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death back to life.

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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin nations

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and recognizes their connection
to land, sea, and community.

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We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging, and extend

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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Kieran Worthington is the Director
of Pottersfield's Funerals and

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Bereavement Assistance League.

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Kevin Hartley is the founder of Natural
Burial Ground Trust of Australia and a

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director of Sustainable Funerals Group.

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Kieran comes from a diverse background
of various business experience,

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from small family business through
to multi national companies.

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Kieran has acquired a large repertoire
of skills that he uses to benefit his

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business ventures and charitable pursuits.

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Strategising and guiding growth for
charitable funerals for 27 years has

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allowed Kieran to visualise a social
enterprise model that is designed

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to support charitable endeavours.

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Kevin Hartley has more than 25 years of
diverse experience in the funeral and

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cemetery industries, giving him a broad
and deep understanding of the sector.

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Kevin has founded and operated
funeral businesses, managed

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cemetery and crematoria, won
awards for innovative business.

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Bio coffin designs and is considered
an authority on natural burials.

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Our conversation today is centered around
the growing issue of funeral poverty

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and debt, particularly among vulnerable
populations, highlighting the need

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for alternative funeral services that
cater to financial and emotional needs.

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Thank you for joining
me, Kieran and Kevin.

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I really have to ask,
where were you a year ago?

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When we had our friend die, his son and
daughter had to crowdfund for his funeral.

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And I now realize, had we been
speaking with you or known about your

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services, we may not have actually
been in, had to do that situation.

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Can you tell me a little
bit about that, Kieran?

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Kieran: Yeah, to answer your question,
we're, unfortunately for you, we're

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right where we've always been,
except you just didn't know about us.

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And that's, that's really the problem
with smaller charitable organizations

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that are effectively trying to make
a dent in the problems of populations

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the size of Melbourne and others.

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We've been, we're in our 27th year,
we let everyone know that we can.

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Via a website, via contacts in
the industry, uh, by hospices,

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hospitals, community groups, we
let them know that we're here.

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People don't tend to think about
death very much, so then they forget

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that you're available when the time
comes, and it all feels rushed and

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pressured at the time, so people make
up make Make their own opportunity

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by using a commercial provider.

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And that's all fine and good if
that's something you can afford.

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However, a lot of people
can't afford that.

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And I'm sure we'll talk a little
bit more about that as we go on.

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However, we're down in Oakley.

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We've been here for over
15 years in this location.

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We've been around for 27 years
and other locations prior to that.

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We are available to
people and we can help.

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It

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Kevin: may be, Catherine, the
answer to the question is a

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bit more universal one as well.

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Which is that deaths, whether expected
or not, when they arrive, the panic

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button in your brain gets hit, and
there's all these decisions to be made.

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And if you haven't been literate around
death and the end of life services

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that are available, you wouldn't know.

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There's probably a stack of
commercial funeral directors

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whose name you don't know.

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So it's not surprising you wouldn't know
about the work of bereavement assistance.

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You know, one of the things I'm very
happy to be here today and thank you for

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having us is to support what you're doing,
which is through Critical Info, you're

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looking to get people to think ahead.

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And this is one of the most useful
things you can possibly do, I

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think, for anyone around this space.

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Uh, because even when someone
knows someone's going to die, you

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really don't want to address it.

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Or many people don't.

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You want that to maybe not be right, or
you're waiting for a miracle, or maybe

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there's going to be a change, or you
think I'll deal with that when the, you

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know, when the thing comes, I won't.

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I won't think it's going to happen
because that's somehow tempting fate.

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So people find themselves in the
exact situation you find yourself

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in all the time, that you didn't
know about bereavement assistance.

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So that's, there's many funeral
directors you wouldn't know about either.

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But I think the, The situation your
friends found themselves in is the reason

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the bereavement assistance was founded.

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And I think Kieran could probably
speak about what, what used to be

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called pauper funerals in Victoria.

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And, and the name isn't good
and nor was what was happening.

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And that was, that was something
that, uh, Kieran and his father,

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his father and Kieran in that
order, uh, set out to address.

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You want to talk about that a bit, Kieran?

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Kieran: Sure thing.

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So my father, Ted Worthington,
was funeral celebrant.

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As we used to say, well, he's a
celebrant, which means he could

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marry you or he could bury you.

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And he found himself coming across people
in desperate need of somebody to help with

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funerals, so he was doing them himself.

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And they couldn't really afford to pay
a commercial rate for a funeral, which

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anyone who, who has attempted to do so in
recent times has discovered is very, very

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expensive, you know, 6, 000, 8, 000, 20,
000, 50, 000 for very high end funerals.

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This is not uncommon.

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So he was taking care of that.

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out of his own pocket and his own time
and, and whatever he could negotiate from

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a funeral home, a second, um, you know,
a second's coffin or something like that.

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It's pretty raw stuff,
but it was necessary.

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A very close friend of his said
to him that, look, this really

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needs to be a charitable endeavor
and was willing to support it with

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a little bit of seeding money.

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And that person became one of the
founding members along with myself

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and my father, my mother, and
one other fellow who was a CPA.

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So Ted's idea of helping Victorians was
born and it was, you know, uh, coming

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on for 27 years ago that that happened.

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Burydman Assistance Limited was created.

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Ted, myself, and a fella by the name of
Bernard were, were the founding directors

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and Ted drove it with all his energy.

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And his ability with us in the
background assisting, uh, for many

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years until his health declined.

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And then I, I took it on as my own
to try and keep the legacy alive.

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And so far still going strong.

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Catherine: What do you think, Kieran,
was the, the actual motivator for

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Ted to, to set up that organization?

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Was it a particular
incident that happened or?

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Kieran: Ted, Ted had always instilled in
my brother and I a sense of community.

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You know, you're nothing
without your community.

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It's only so long.

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Man is not an island, as they say.

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It's only so long you can last if
you don't have assistance when you

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need it, and therefore it's important
that you are there for others.

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Uh, when they need you.

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So we understood that, uh, early days
growing up, we assisted him with several

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fundraising events for people who were
in need unrelated to this industry.

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Ted, Ted always had a sense of fair
play, very strong sense of fair play

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and liked to see that everyone got an
opportunity to do what they needed to do

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or to be looked after if they needed it.

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So that's what drove him as a
person and still to this day does.

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What he found that was really.

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Touching his heart and then the
heart of our patron, Mick Miller, ex

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Police Commissioner for Victoria, who
also assisted us and stayed a patron

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for 22 years until he passed away.

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What touched them was finding that
there were people that were slipping

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through even the cracks of the system
that were designed to help them.

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They'd find ex servicemen that were
effectively, effectively, effectively.

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Pauper funerals with nobody helping
when in fact there was a system in

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place to assist them financially if
necessary They just didn't know about it.

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No one that they knew could tell them
about it or or get them connected So

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I think that was one of the key things
for ted and mcmillan at the time to

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really get them Fired up into figuring
out how to provide a service that people

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could access One of the things that
we need to do better admittedly is Get

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the word out in a way that makes sense.

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Good news is social media
has the ability to do that.

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And that's something we're now
utilizing, but for many years, at

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least the first couple of decades, we'd
often hear of people saying, we didn't

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know you were here, we wish we did.

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You've just articulated that
same issue for yourself.

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It just seemed like no matter how many
people you tell, people tend to forget.

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And then when it comes time,
they don't know what to do.

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So they just refer it on coroner being
the first entity that touches somebody

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who is in need or the police anyhow.

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He, he was sufficiently motivated to
talk about it with a number of friends.

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And as you said, there was a
very good close friend who was a

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benefactor who provided a little
seed money to get this going.

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And so here we are now
doing that good work still.

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Catherine: I think Kevin, you actually
alluded to it when someone dies, you're

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not in the right frame of mind to be
researching what your options are.

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You generally go with what
the family already knows, uh,

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what's familiar with you to you.

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So.

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I think that that was something in
hindsight that we did is that we, we

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thought we'd just go with the, well, the
family thought that they would go with

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the organization that had done the older
brother's funeral, which I think is,

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is a very normal thing or a very usual
thing that sort of happens in families.

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Would that be correct in, in saying that?

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Kevin: Absolutely, Catherine.

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A death occurs, and everything
goes topsy turvy, you press the

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pause button on your life, and then
you're wondering, what do I do now?

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And lack of information or being
unsure makes you scared, and

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what makes you feel better is
something that you're familiar with.

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So, yes, Fred Smith Funerals
did Grandad's funeral 20 years

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00:11:14,439 --> 00:11:16,030
ago, uh, let's just go there.

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This is the quick fix to feeling
scared or feeling uncertain.

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And if you add on to the top of that,
the issue of, you know, that we're

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talking about today, which is folk who
are struggling financially, put that on

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the top of it, it almost doesn't matter
where they go, there's the additional

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layer of problem that comes in.

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And one of the, the founding blocks
of, uh, Curran's family and Ted's, uh,

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00:11:39,635 --> 00:11:44,124
service of bereavement assistance was
what existed, has always existed in some

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form as a corporate funeral, which was
the provision of the absolute minimum

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amount of money possible from the
government to simply dispose of the body.

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And I use that terminology
rather than have a funeral, just

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bury the body or burn the body.

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That was the, that was basically what
was being provided to people before.

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Ted stepped in.

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00:12:03,645 --> 00:12:06,805
What he said was, well, it doesn't,
you know, we're all members of society

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and it doesn't matter who it is.

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And if it happens at that point in your
life when you die, you happen to be

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financially broke, and that can happen
to people, there's people who are rich

223
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when they're 20 and broke when they're
30, to have to have that sort of funeral

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isn't a good reflection of our society.

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I think there was a sort of a
famous saying that, you know, if

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you want to see how a society,
Operates and have a look at how it

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treats its poor people and its dead.

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So that was a, you know, a pauper funeral
is about as undignified as you get.

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And what bereavement did through its
work, as Kieran's outlined, was to

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establish a charity, find some funding
sources so that people were given

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funerals that were very similar, if
not identical to a commercial funeral,

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but either at a greatly subsidized or
in some cases, fully subsidized cost.

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And that work's still going on today.

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There are, nothing's changed.

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And if anything, the environment, the
post COVID, the economic crisis that

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we're in now, skyrocketing interest
rates, that problem's only getting worse.

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Catherine: And can you tell me what,
what is on offer today, and how do people

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when they come to you, what happens?

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Talk me through that process.

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Kieran: Yes, no problem at all.

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I might just add to Kevin's comments
first if I can, our patron on Patreon.

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MacMillan, what a wonderful fellow he
was, you know, I mean, you know, he, he

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ran our police force for over 10 years.

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He was a detective before
that for a couple of decades.

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Very good man to go to, to talk to,
to understand the, the, the breadth

246
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of the problems that society has
naturally given the role he played

247
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and how they could be solved or at
least alleviated, sometimes mitigated.

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One of his favorite sayings for
what we were doing was that we

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bring dignity and death to those
that may not have known it in life.

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And I think that's, that's a great, you
know, way to sum up what Kevin was saying.

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It was a pretty ordinary situation that
Victorians had to deal with very hard on

252
00:14:03,774 --> 00:14:09,405
families that didn't really understand
death and what's involved in moving

253
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forward from the part where someone has
ended their life, naturally or otherwise.

254
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And quite a shock when they found
out how simple and basic and raw the

255
00:14:20,205 --> 00:14:25,855
system actually was that they're,
that a very modern and, and, and you

256
00:14:25,855 --> 00:14:29,894
would say wealthy society by many
international standards was still

257
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working at such a very low level.

258
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So.

259
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What can we do?

260
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That's important.

261
00:14:35,574 --> 00:14:38,245
We can take care of people no
matter how much money they have.

262
00:14:38,355 --> 00:14:42,344
If they have enough money for a
very basic, fully paid funeral,

263
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we can get that done for them.

264
00:14:44,625 --> 00:14:48,484
If they are short on that, we can
assist with some government funding

265
00:14:48,484 --> 00:14:53,655
that will bring them to a level that
is a simple service, a cremation.

266
00:14:54,260 --> 00:14:56,710
a burial if there is a
space already set aside.

267
00:14:56,890 --> 00:15:00,720
Burial plots are very expensive but some
families actually have them bequeathed

268
00:15:00,740 --> 00:15:05,570
to them or left over from earlier
purchases and we can assist there.

269
00:15:06,290 --> 00:15:09,540
People who come to us typically
are finding that affordability

270
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of funeral is the problem.

271
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Most funeral homes will start
at around six to eight thousand

272
00:15:13,780 --> 00:15:15,670
dollars for a basic funeral service.

273
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That have been all inclusive,
but it's very, very basic.

274
00:15:18,979 --> 00:15:21,630
And then they head up North
from there very quickly, as

275
00:15:21,630 --> 00:15:22,650
soon as you want anything.

276
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So, uh, in terms of what we offer,
we, we offer a range of opportunities

277
00:15:27,279 --> 00:15:30,170
for people, depending on what
their financial circumstances are.

278
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,070
If somebody has a little money,
but not quite enough for a

279
00:15:34,070 --> 00:15:37,629
commercial funeral, we can do
something to help them out for sure.

280
00:15:38,179 --> 00:15:41,160
If there's less money than that, the
government provides some funding that

281
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,439
we're allowed to utilize to help them.

282
00:15:44,009 --> 00:15:45,550
And in the case of some.

283
00:15:45,959 --> 00:15:47,760
I'm very unfortunate and destitute people.

284
00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,560
If they have literally not a cent
to their name, we can take care

285
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:56,540
of a very basic cremation for them
along with some dignified words and,

286
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,110
and provide the ashes back to them.

287
00:15:58,740 --> 00:16:01,599
Uh, this is done with the help of
the state government in the form

288
00:16:01,599 --> 00:16:03,060
of the coroner and some funding.

289
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:04,300
to make that work.

290
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:07,359
The important thing here is that
people feel like there was at

291
00:16:07,359 --> 00:16:11,770
least some dignified finish to
that person's life, even if they

292
00:16:11,780 --> 00:16:15,059
hadn't led a very happy or good one.

293
00:16:15,909 --> 00:16:16,920
We don't discriminate.

294
00:16:16,959 --> 00:16:18,840
We take all comers, so to speak.

295
00:16:23,140 --> 00:16:26,010
Catherine: So the people that, that
come to mind that I'm thinking of, and

296
00:16:26,010 --> 00:16:32,069
I've, I've read a bit of, uh, services
that are similar to this in the UK and

297
00:16:32,109 --> 00:16:35,850
America, they're obviously a little bit
different, but where they, they offer,

298
00:16:35,859 --> 00:16:42,189
uh, cremation services for people that
have been, uh, Unclaimed, I believe,

299
00:16:42,199 --> 00:16:44,780
in the UK, or similar in the States.

300
00:16:45,199 --> 00:16:49,430
So I'm thinking that the sort of people
that you may see are perhaps homeless

301
00:16:49,459 --> 00:16:55,410
people, people who have lived by
themselves, may not have any family.

302
00:16:55,819 --> 00:17:01,040
But at the same time, having said that,
you know, I think about our circumstance

303
00:17:01,060 --> 00:17:06,190
last year, and it was a matter of whether
how much money is in the bank account.

304
00:17:06,530 --> 00:17:07,680
Doesn't matter how much.

305
00:17:08,015 --> 00:17:10,785
you know, is, you know, is in assets.

306
00:17:10,785 --> 00:17:15,735
It was actually about that, that liquid
form to actually pay for the funeral bill.

307
00:17:15,755 --> 00:17:18,344
That was what was the deciding factor.

308
00:17:18,344 --> 00:17:19,895
Is, is that true to see?

309
00:17:20,174 --> 00:17:22,014
Kieran: Yeah, this is very much true.

310
00:17:22,375 --> 00:17:26,674
I think people imagine that charity
is homeless people needing blankets

311
00:17:26,685 --> 00:17:28,405
and food and that sort of thing.

312
00:17:28,405 --> 00:17:32,774
And of course that's very much part of it,
but so many more people are affected these

313
00:17:32,774 --> 00:17:35,065
days and in need of charitable support.

314
00:17:35,815 --> 00:17:39,460
People with jobs Transcribed People who
are just literally struggling just to keep

315
00:17:39,460 --> 00:17:44,060
food on the table for their children or
pay the mortgage, the rent in many cases.

316
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,499
A great example would be in the
early days, Ted was interviewed

317
00:17:47,499 --> 00:17:50,619
by a young woman who was, she
was, she was a new journalist.

318
00:17:50,619 --> 00:17:52,820
She'd just gotten out of uni
and it's one of her first jobs.

319
00:17:52,820 --> 00:17:56,570
And, and we did a number of
interviews, radio and, and print

320
00:17:56,580 --> 00:17:59,370
back in those days, this was
before the advent of social media.

321
00:18:00,350 --> 00:18:03,695
And this, this, This young
woman just wanted to know,

322
00:18:03,745 --> 00:18:05,014
like, oh, this is terrible.

323
00:18:05,054 --> 00:18:07,195
People with no money and
living on the streets.

324
00:18:07,205 --> 00:18:08,965
And Ted said, well, that's
not always the case.

325
00:18:09,294 --> 00:18:10,835
He said, I'll give you an example.

326
00:18:11,215 --> 00:18:12,304
You're new at your job.

327
00:18:12,304 --> 00:18:12,725
Yes.

328
00:18:12,865 --> 00:18:14,575
You're in your early twenties.

329
00:18:14,575 --> 00:18:15,125
Yes.

330
00:18:15,854 --> 00:18:17,074
Got much money in the bank.

331
00:18:17,165 --> 00:18:17,935
I'm guessing not.

332
00:18:17,955 --> 00:18:18,344
No.

333
00:18:18,415 --> 00:18:19,774
Got a hex deck from uni.

334
00:18:19,774 --> 00:18:20,155
Oh yeah.

335
00:18:20,155 --> 00:18:21,624
That'll take a long time to pay off.

336
00:18:21,675 --> 00:18:21,995
Right.

337
00:18:22,524 --> 00:18:23,324
You drive a car.

338
00:18:23,324 --> 00:18:23,794
Yes.

339
00:18:24,235 --> 00:18:25,495
I'm guessing you're paying that off.

340
00:18:25,495 --> 00:18:25,935
Oh, yes.

341
00:18:25,965 --> 00:18:27,965
I got a loan from my parents
or something like that.

342
00:18:27,965 --> 00:18:28,754
And I'm paying that off.

343
00:18:28,764 --> 00:18:29,125
Great.

344
00:18:29,805 --> 00:18:32,725
And then he, then unfortunately for
her, he hit her with it and he said,

345
00:18:32,735 --> 00:18:35,095
you die tomorrow, you will be with me.

346
00:18:36,045 --> 00:18:39,575
There is nothing for you to pay a
funeral unless someone else steps

347
00:18:39,575 --> 00:18:43,614
in, whether it be your parents or
an aunt or an uncle or, and many.

348
00:18:44,225 --> 00:18:47,875
In many cases, the thing that
we're seeing these days is we have

349
00:18:48,155 --> 00:18:52,314
many generations of people with,
with not enough money or no money.

350
00:18:52,314 --> 00:18:56,655
In some cases, these people often
are in the welfare system and have

351
00:18:56,685 --> 00:19:01,574
been generation, you know, mothers,
grandmothers, grandfathers, and therefore

352
00:19:01,574 --> 00:19:06,304
the grandchildren struggle to hold
jobs, struggle to fit into the society

353
00:19:06,304 --> 00:19:08,135
that they find themselves born into.

354
00:19:08,735 --> 00:19:09,525
And therefore.

355
00:19:09,885 --> 00:19:12,235
have no knowledge of how to
manage money, let alone get it.

356
00:19:12,595 --> 00:19:15,565
You know, as we all know, you need
a job, you need to get paid, and you

357
00:19:15,565 --> 00:19:18,445
need to pay bills, and you hope you
make more than the bills you pay.

358
00:19:18,834 --> 00:19:20,244
That's not the case for a lot of people.

359
00:19:20,675 --> 00:19:21,975
Those are the folks that we're helping.

360
00:19:22,965 --> 00:19:25,825
Catherine: And a lot of the time, I'm
sure, sorry Kevin, but a lot of the

361
00:19:25,825 --> 00:19:29,824
time I'm sure that you actually see
that that perhaps is also a result

362
00:19:29,905 --> 00:19:31,935
of intergenerational trauma as well.

363
00:19:32,914 --> 00:19:35,174
Kieran: Yeah, Kevin can probably
talk a little bit to that.

364
00:19:35,174 --> 00:19:37,814
He's very familiar with this,
this problem with society, yeah.

365
00:19:38,565 --> 00:19:39,725
Kevin: Absolutely, Catherine.

366
00:19:39,784 --> 00:19:43,935
You know, there are, there are families
who've been in receipt, you know, living

367
00:19:43,945 --> 00:19:46,275
on social security for three generations.

368
00:19:46,745 --> 00:19:48,875
And it's, it's not an indictment of them.

369
00:19:48,875 --> 00:19:51,485
It's there, it simply is in any society.

370
00:19:51,485 --> 00:19:54,904
There is certain people who don't
fit into the middle of the machine.

371
00:19:54,914 --> 00:19:59,725
And we, we in our society, if you want
to be in the middle class or in the,

372
00:19:59,735 --> 00:20:03,055
you know, just in the way things work,
you've got a job, you've got a mortgage,

373
00:20:03,055 --> 00:20:04,345
you've got all these bits and pieces.

374
00:20:04,345 --> 00:20:05,515
Some people just can't do that.

375
00:20:06,104 --> 00:20:09,415
I just don't understand it, can't
do it emotionally, psychologically,

376
00:20:09,435 --> 00:20:10,675
practically, or physically.

377
00:20:11,685 --> 00:20:12,485
I think this is interesting.

378
00:20:12,485 --> 00:20:16,944
I'm listening to you and Kieran talk
backwards and forwards, and it might

379
00:20:16,944 --> 00:20:20,354
sound, or someone listening to this
podcast might think that, oh, okay,

380
00:20:20,355 --> 00:20:24,114
so there's this service out at Oakley
that's for people who are absolutely

381
00:20:24,114 --> 00:20:25,415
living on the street and destitute.

382
00:20:26,205 --> 00:20:27,304
But that's changed.

383
00:20:27,304 --> 00:20:31,465
I think certainly that was part of it
in the early stages, as I understand

384
00:20:31,465 --> 00:20:32,824
from talking with Ted and Kieran.

385
00:20:33,495 --> 00:20:37,594
But today, there are people who've got
good paying jobs and three children

386
00:20:37,594 --> 00:20:39,524
and two kids in school and mortgages.

387
00:20:39,834 --> 00:20:43,834
And if they got hit with a funeral debt,
they would be that an example of that.

388
00:20:43,900 --> 00:20:47,149
The person that Karen was just talking
about, the young woman interviewing,

389
00:20:47,209 --> 00:20:50,419
an unexpected debt when you're
teetering on the edge of what you

390
00:20:50,419 --> 00:20:52,379
can pay for pushes you over the edge.

391
00:20:52,389 --> 00:20:56,280
And that's, that's what we're now
seeing more and more is a change

392
00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,489
in the interest and the people
who are inquiring into funerals.

393
00:21:01,110 --> 00:21:04,090
And they're going, oh, okay,
I'm in a place where, yes,

394
00:21:04,090 --> 00:21:05,540
I can pay my bills tomorrow.

395
00:21:05,710 --> 00:21:07,570
So they might fall through the cracks.

396
00:21:07,570 --> 00:21:09,890
And I mean, that's something
that we're currently looking at.

397
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,209
We're looking at, you know,
Kieran's talked about the last

398
00:21:13,209 --> 00:21:16,009
27 years of helping Victorians.

399
00:21:16,009 --> 00:21:19,640
We're focused now on the next
27 and what those problems are,

400
00:21:19,679 --> 00:21:21,059
because the problems change.

401
00:21:21,059 --> 00:21:22,089
Times change.

402
00:21:22,539 --> 00:21:27,929
There's a need there, I think, for a
different form of funeral entirely, um,

403
00:21:27,939 --> 00:21:32,665
than, than perhaps what the commercial
funeral directors are offering people so

404
00:21:32,665 --> 00:21:39,085
that there's a midpoint where people who
are struggling financially but wouldn't

405
00:21:39,135 --> 00:21:42,344
meet the criteria for a government
assisted funeral or a bereavement

406
00:21:42,344 --> 00:21:46,615
assistance funeral that they might have
some other option and that's that's

407
00:21:46,635 --> 00:21:49,434
where we're focused at present is we're
trying to work out where that goes.

408
00:21:51,014 --> 00:21:54,245
Catherine: You're so right there,
Kevin, because I know from my car

409
00:21:54,245 --> 00:21:58,615
accident, our, you know, our world
changed pretty much instantaneously.

410
00:21:58,915 --> 00:22:03,964
I was fortunate that I was in a government
job at that stage, and I had a long

411
00:22:03,964 --> 00:22:09,625
service leave, but it only takes one
incident like that, and it can, can

412
00:22:09,625 --> 00:22:11,235
change the whole rest of your life.

413
00:22:11,815 --> 00:22:15,915
So I'm not surprised that you're seeing
a shift with what you're going to

414
00:22:15,925 --> 00:22:20,104
have to, to deal with in relation to
your clients for the next 27 years.

415
00:22:20,855 --> 00:22:22,215
And can you tell me a
little bit about that?

416
00:22:22,985 --> 00:22:26,614
Kevin: Well, Catherine, I think that's a
great segue to talk about, uh, a term that

417
00:22:26,655 --> 00:22:29,195
was born in the UK called funeral poverty.

418
00:22:29,929 --> 00:22:33,939
And if you take that situation we just
described and then you put a family in a

419
00:22:33,939 --> 00:22:38,300
situation, the breadwinner dies, quickly
gets sick, heart attack, whatever,

420
00:22:38,810 --> 00:22:42,760
there's the family, suddenly the income
is about to dry up, there's probably,

421
00:22:42,810 --> 00:22:47,499
you know, some long service leave or some
holiday leave or some bonus payments or

422
00:22:47,499 --> 00:22:51,110
a bit of life insurance or something,
and that family then are faced, if

423
00:22:51,110 --> 00:22:54,610
they fall into the trap of not having
thought about what the funeral is and

424
00:22:54,610 --> 00:22:58,259
really assessing and going, you know
what, if we spent a lot of money on this

425
00:22:58,260 --> 00:22:59,510
funeral, we're going to be in our worst.

426
00:22:59,725 --> 00:23:04,665
And heaven forbid they spend
all the money they've got or

427
00:23:04,665 --> 00:23:06,795
worse, going to debt to do this.

428
00:23:06,795 --> 00:23:10,585
And fortunately, and I'm not going
to say, you know, I'm not going

429
00:23:10,585 --> 00:23:13,105
to tar all commercial funeral
directors with the same brush.

430
00:23:13,105 --> 00:23:16,945
But it has been not uncommon
for funeral directors to help

431
00:23:16,954 --> 00:23:18,634
arrange finance for funerals.

432
00:23:18,675 --> 00:23:22,575
And what you're doing is putting people in
a position where they're going into debt.

433
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:29,420
services at a time when they're
potentially not in the best frame of

434
00:23:29,420 --> 00:23:33,500
mind to assess whether those services are
really what they want, whether they're

435
00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:38,020
essential, whether they're extravagant,
and they just are led to some degree.

436
00:23:38,639 --> 00:23:41,829
And then you've got the grief of
the funeral, the loss of your life,

437
00:23:41,850 --> 00:23:44,579
the changes to your existence,
and you've got a debt and that's.

438
00:23:45,100 --> 00:23:49,300
been a topic that we've been at our board
levels and discussions working through

439
00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:53,010
diligently in the last months going you
know what there's people who are about

440
00:23:53,020 --> 00:23:57,060
to fall into that trap who today look
like they're holding it all together

441
00:23:57,060 --> 00:24:01,640
and tomorrow as you say Catherine you've
explained your history with having a

442
00:24:01,650 --> 00:24:03,779
serious accident that changed your life.

443
00:24:04,669 --> 00:24:07,920
There's people out there today who have
events like that tomorrow where there's

444
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,490
a death and they potentially end up in
debt which is then grief is a complicated

445
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,140
thing and complicated grief exists.

446
00:24:16,179 --> 00:24:19,939
That's it's two things and you put in
debt and then you put in extra debt and

447
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:23,780
then every time you look at that debt
you're not thinking about the passing

448
00:24:23,780 --> 00:24:26,759
of the person you're thinking about the
debt that went along with their death

449
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,069
so then you've got a double whammy of
psychological trauma that's coming along

450
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,969
there so it's it's a real trap and we
I think something that the original

451
00:24:35,969 --> 00:24:37,499
bereavement assistance offering program.

452
00:24:38,145 --> 00:24:43,865
uh, has done as to some great degree over
the last years is, has given an option for

453
00:24:43,875 --> 00:24:47,434
at least for the people who knew about the
service not to end up in that situation.

454
00:24:47,985 --> 00:24:50,095
And I, but I think we
need to do more actually.

455
00:24:50,954 --> 00:24:54,294
Catherine: What sort of discussions
are you having at that board level when

456
00:24:54,295 --> 00:24:59,254
you're looking at what you offer and,
and considering your thoughts on funeral

457
00:24:59,254 --> 00:25:05,055
poverty, where, what services do you
see changing over the next few years?

458
00:25:06,030 --> 00:25:07,030
Kevin: Great question.

459
00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:12,710
We're probably a little premature, but to,
to go to detail, Catherine, maybe, maybe

460
00:25:12,710 --> 00:25:16,509
we, we leave you with the thought that
we, we feel like there's an opportunity

461
00:25:16,540 --> 00:25:21,849
or the potential to, to address the
whole sector of the, of the community in

462
00:25:21,849 --> 00:25:23,959
Victoria, who wouldn't normally consider.

463
00:25:25,950 --> 00:25:30,100
Seeking services with a group
like Bereavement Assistance or

464
00:25:30,100 --> 00:25:31,450
the Sustainable Funeral Group.

465
00:25:32,590 --> 00:25:38,610
But by producing funerals of a different
nature, a funeral where families are much

466
00:25:38,610 --> 00:25:42,500
more involved, funerals where families
are coordinating some activities or

467
00:25:42,500 --> 00:25:44,569
crafting their own funeral perhaps.

468
00:25:45,254 --> 00:25:50,535
and us providing them with, uh,
the pieces of professional or,

469
00:25:51,085 --> 00:25:54,884
uh, specific information and
experience and equipment that they

470
00:25:54,884 --> 00:25:56,874
wouldn't generally have access to.

471
00:25:56,875 --> 00:25:59,245
Is that a fair description,

472
00:25:59,264 --> 00:25:59,534
Kieran: Kieran?

473
00:25:59,615 --> 00:26:02,085
I'm not sure how far you're describing.

474
00:26:02,144 --> 00:26:04,595
No, I think that's fair
and right to talk about.

475
00:26:04,634 --> 00:26:08,305
I mean, the reality we have is, is
that, you know, once upon a time

476
00:26:08,305 --> 00:26:10,060
there was There was a middle class.

477
00:26:10,890 --> 00:26:13,330
I'm, I ain't saying much
of a middle class anymore.

478
00:26:13,330 --> 00:26:16,330
I would have considered myself one
of them once, but there were times

479
00:26:16,330 --> 00:26:20,879
when I've had to find ways to create
money to pay some additional bills.

480
00:26:20,879 --> 00:26:21,740
I didn't see it coming.

481
00:26:21,789 --> 00:26:22,740
It's the truth of it.

482
00:26:22,850 --> 00:26:24,540
You know, there's no shame in it.

483
00:26:24,669 --> 00:26:28,179
The reality is we plan the best weekend
and we don't, we sometimes fall short.

484
00:26:28,599 --> 00:26:31,519
What that's opened up is an area
where people who are going to be

485
00:26:31,519 --> 00:26:35,510
hit with a very quick, large bill,
they're going to need another option.

486
00:26:36,075 --> 00:26:37,905
I'll give you, this is an example.

487
00:26:37,905 --> 00:26:43,225
I know a fellow that, whatever reason,
was, found himself homeless all of

488
00:26:43,225 --> 00:26:47,024
a sudden with four children and a
car that had a dodgy transmission.

489
00:26:48,034 --> 00:26:48,735
He needed help.

490
00:26:49,730 --> 00:26:55,050
You know, he, he, I could see this
thing spiraling terribly for him as

491
00:26:55,050 --> 00:26:56,719
soon as that car wouldn't drive anymore.

492
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,250
He had children to get to school.

493
00:26:58,340 --> 00:27:00,739
He had doctor's appointments
for one of them was sick.

494
00:27:01,159 --> 00:27:04,079
You know, he had to find a way to
get work and get himself there.

495
00:27:04,780 --> 00:27:06,139
This is dire stuff.

496
00:27:06,259 --> 00:27:06,599
Okay.

497
00:27:06,939 --> 00:27:11,319
But once upon a time, a man that owned
a car and had children and an income and

498
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,620
was moving along in life was considered.

499
00:27:14,105 --> 00:27:16,395
middle class or lower
middle class at worst.

500
00:27:16,795 --> 00:27:19,425
This fellow is on the, on
the edge of destitution.

501
00:27:19,735 --> 00:27:22,435
If someone had died, he
couldn't afford a funeral.

502
00:27:22,755 --> 00:27:25,544
So what, what he might've been
able to do though is do something

503
00:27:25,545 --> 00:27:27,045
to help himself with a funeral.

504
00:27:27,045 --> 00:27:30,724
And therefore, if we provided that
assistance, he could have gotten away

505
00:27:30,724 --> 00:27:34,465
with it for a much cheaper price that
he could manage, that he could do.

506
00:27:35,025 --> 00:27:37,975
If he could afford a 2, 000 transmission,
he might've been able to afford

507
00:27:37,975 --> 00:27:42,064
a funeral with someone like us if
we had the, the system in place.

508
00:27:42,075 --> 00:27:44,314
So we're talking about how
we might be able to help.

509
00:27:44,845 --> 00:27:48,074
people who have found themselves
just without the extra money

510
00:27:48,074 --> 00:27:51,935
required for, for a lump sum
commitment at a short space of time.

511
00:27:52,425 --> 00:27:55,025
And, and, and we're, we're
going to pull this off.

512
00:27:55,025 --> 00:27:57,054
We'll be able to do this
because we've been around long

513
00:27:57,054 --> 00:27:58,265
enough to know what to do.

514
00:27:58,615 --> 00:28:01,114
We just have to get the right
funding in place to make sure

515
00:28:01,114 --> 00:28:04,275
we've got equipment ready and
people ready to help those folks.

516
00:28:04,625 --> 00:28:05,905
This is only going to get worse.

517
00:28:05,905 --> 00:28:09,930
So I know this for a fact, I talk
with people Regularly about non

518
00:28:09,930 --> 00:28:13,480
funeral related things because I have
a very great interest like everyone

519
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,970
in trying to pay a mortgage or
mortgages if you've ever invested in

520
00:28:16,970 --> 00:28:19,379
property and everybody is struggling.

521
00:28:19,389 --> 00:28:22,789
They don't know they're having to
sell, they don't know what to do and

522
00:28:22,789 --> 00:28:26,159
therefore that tells me that that bit
of cash they had set aside, there's

523
00:28:26,159 --> 00:28:29,790
now been sucked up by the interest rate
rises and therefore they can't afford.

524
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,710
5, 6, 10 grand all of a sudden, they're
keeping their cars longer, those

525
00:28:34,730 --> 00:28:37,720
cars are getting worn out and old
because they can't afford to replace

526
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,350
the cars, those sorts of things.

527
00:28:39,639 --> 00:28:42,799
This is the reality of what we're
living in, this is the majority of our

528
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:47,989
population, this is no longer the small
niche piece, you know, typically you

529
00:28:47,989 --> 00:28:51,339
would find in the lower socioeconomic
group that we would help, we are now

530
00:28:51,369 --> 00:28:54,710
helping people all the way up through
to what used to be called middle class,

531
00:28:55,180 --> 00:28:56,400
they're just running out of money.

532
00:28:57,065 --> 00:29:00,325
We are trying to stop the
cycle of debt the best we can

533
00:29:00,445 --> 00:29:01,805
and we'll continue to do so.

534
00:29:01,805 --> 00:29:04,355
So we will innovate products so
that we can help people do that.

535
00:29:05,430 --> 00:29:08,750
Catherine: And I know that we
personally knew three people who

536
00:29:08,750 --> 00:29:13,729
died last year because of that they
had to crowdfund for their funeral.

537
00:29:14,190 --> 00:29:17,240
And that's just us knowing three people.

538
00:29:17,580 --> 00:29:23,520
So I'd hate to think with you being
in the industry, how many people and

539
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,790
how many stories that you've heard,
especially over the last 12 months, as

540
00:29:27,790 --> 00:29:29,320
you mentioned with the interest rates.

541
00:29:29,770 --> 00:29:37,100
Something that I have heard conversations
about also is people wanting to reclaim,

542
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,929
you know, I had an interview with Rebecca
Lyons from the Australian Home Funeral

543
00:29:41,930 --> 00:29:47,279
Alliance, and she is instrumental in
that, that alliance is instrumental in.

544
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:52,850
Helping people reclaim funerals within
the home and, you know, taking on

545
00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:55,000
ownership of certain parts of the funeral.

546
00:29:55,280 --> 00:30:00,020
Is that something that you would
have seen in your experience?

547
00:30:00,290 --> 00:30:04,500
People wanting to be more involved
and more family centered services?

548
00:30:05,465 --> 00:30:10,385
Kevin: I think there's a sector of people
in the community who want to do that.

549
00:30:11,035 --> 00:30:14,265
Uh, I don't think it's a thing
that everyone wants to do, even

550
00:30:14,265 --> 00:30:15,615
if they were fully informed.

551
00:30:15,625 --> 00:30:19,005
There's great individual
variance is an absolute.

552
00:30:19,085 --> 00:30:21,735
Everyone's different, what we
can handle, what we want, what

553
00:30:21,735 --> 00:30:23,484
we feel is meaningful to do.

554
00:30:24,115 --> 00:30:27,795
You know, someone, someone arranging,
writing a eulogy, that, that might be

555
00:30:27,795 --> 00:30:31,745
as a brilliantly powerful contribution
to a funeral, but as far as they go, and

556
00:30:31,745 --> 00:30:35,205
if you said to them, why don't you come
down to the mortuary and help us put

557
00:30:35,265 --> 00:30:40,634
granddad in the coffin, that might be
just so far out of their, you know, field

558
00:30:40,635 --> 00:30:43,480
of comfort that it would be Outrageous.

559
00:30:44,020 --> 00:30:46,910
Um, I know Bec Lyons.

560
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:48,430
I'm very familiar with her work.

561
00:30:48,430 --> 00:30:51,329
She's a very smart and passionate person.

562
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,370
The idea of family being involved
in funerals is something that's

563
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,220
always in any funeral business.

564
00:30:57,220 --> 00:30:59,320
I've been associated
with over 30 odd years.

565
00:30:59,389 --> 00:31:01,359
We're open to that.

566
00:31:01,420 --> 00:31:05,940
And I think this is part of the,
this might be part of the solution

567
00:31:05,970 --> 00:31:10,655
for people who find themselves, you
know, Not destitute in the old terms

568
00:31:10,655 --> 00:31:14,935
where they, they absolutely need
the, the original sort of services

569
00:31:14,935 --> 00:31:16,325
that we've been offering at Oakley.

570
00:31:16,725 --> 00:31:20,295
The people who find themselves in that
halfway mark, where they need to find

571
00:31:20,295 --> 00:31:23,745
a cost effective way to have a funeral
that's meaningful for their family.

572
00:31:24,295 --> 00:31:29,154
And yeah, you know, we talk about funerals
being expensive, and in some ways they

573
00:31:29,154 --> 00:31:30,854
are, and in some ways they aren't.

574
00:31:31,374 --> 00:31:35,314
I had a relative who just had one of
their, well, my sister actually, one

575
00:31:35,315 --> 00:31:39,005
of her children married, and I know
what the bill for the wedding was.

576
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,050
And compared to most
funerals, it's staggier.

577
00:31:42,660 --> 00:31:47,550
So, life events are expensive, they
just are, you know, things cost money.

578
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,967
If people can afford funerals and
want particular trappings and, or

579
00:31:52,967 --> 00:31:56,450
events or locations or the things
that, that's absolutely just

580
00:31:56,450 --> 00:31:58,350
if that's meaningful for them.

581
00:31:58,830 --> 00:32:02,759
There's very few people who don't
want anything, who genuinely just go,

582
00:32:02,759 --> 00:32:07,759
oh, you know, we just need to dispose
of the body and have no service.

583
00:32:08,069 --> 00:32:10,319
Because this is a social thing,
Catherine, so it's a, it's

584
00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:12,650
built into our DNA, you know.

585
00:32:13,555 --> 00:32:16,255
I'm sure if you went back, there's
no evidence of this, but I'm

586
00:32:16,255 --> 00:32:17,445
going to pause it for a moment.

587
00:32:17,455 --> 00:32:21,195
And I'm sure if you went back to the
cavemen, and there's a family of 10

588
00:32:21,205 --> 00:32:25,635
living in a cave, and one morning
they get up and Urt doesn't move, and

589
00:32:25,635 --> 00:32:29,774
someone goes over and prods Urt, they
might not even understand that Urt

590
00:32:29,854 --> 00:32:34,420
died, but I bet you We'd do a dollar,
but they all sat down around it and

591
00:32:34,430 --> 00:32:38,320
went, and they stopped everything
else they were doing for a while.

592
00:32:39,100 --> 00:32:42,619
And they thought about it, and they
realized that something had changed.

593
00:32:42,620 --> 00:32:44,340
And that's, that's the
origin of a funeral.

594
00:32:45,319 --> 00:32:46,350
That's what we're doing today.

595
00:32:46,410 --> 00:32:47,370
We're stopping and realizing.

596
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:48,779
So this is built into us.

597
00:32:48,779 --> 00:32:50,839
We want and need to have these things.

598
00:32:51,475 --> 00:32:56,975
If the funeral, the commercial funeral
market is such that it makes people want

599
00:32:57,145 --> 00:33:00,975
to buy things, and this is the commercial
world we live in, and we're bombarded with

600
00:33:00,975 --> 00:33:04,835
stuff all the time, buy this, you need
this, people identifying problems we don't

601
00:33:04,845 --> 00:33:06,815
have and creating products to fill them.

602
00:33:07,805 --> 00:33:10,524
People think about a funeral,
they go, ah, a funeral is this,

603
00:33:10,524 --> 00:33:11,895
I've got to have one of those.

604
00:33:11,895 --> 00:33:14,855
And it's up to us, I think, and
particularly in this charitable sex

605
00:33:14,865 --> 00:33:20,055
space, to take ideas and nuances and
the feelings of things like Beck's

606
00:33:20,055 --> 00:33:23,490
doing with family led funerals And
say, well, that's, that's great.

607
00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:28,180
How can we bring that so that everyone can
have access to that or more specifically,

608
00:33:28,190 --> 00:33:31,989
everyone who wants that, because there'll
always be people who'll go, you know

609
00:33:31,990 --> 00:33:36,310
what, we really did love the funeral
that Smith and Jones funerals did for us.

610
00:33:36,310 --> 00:33:39,399
We want that for granddad as
well as grandma, and we've

611
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:40,659
got the money to pay for it.

612
00:33:40,659 --> 00:33:42,210
And that's how we want to handle it.

613
00:33:42,290 --> 00:33:46,200
And no, we don't want to go and
dress the dress, the deceased or, but

614
00:33:46,210 --> 00:33:47,550
yes, we do want to write the eulogy.

615
00:33:47,550 --> 00:33:49,939
And yes, I do want to make
the flowers from my garden.

616
00:33:49,940 --> 00:33:50,050
Okay.

617
00:33:50,565 --> 00:33:55,265
And I think everyone's different and
what's, what's the last probably 30

618
00:33:55,265 --> 00:33:58,695
years of funerals has been is that
people use the cookie cutter expression.

619
00:33:59,285 --> 00:34:01,085
Funerals come out of a bit of a mold.

620
00:34:02,205 --> 00:34:05,725
Most people wouldn't experience this, but
as funeral directors, I remember going to

621
00:34:05,725 --> 00:34:11,135
a crematorium one day and being there with
the one company years ago, five funerals,

622
00:34:11,135 --> 00:34:12,765
one hour, basically an hour apart.

623
00:34:13,075 --> 00:34:15,485
And I couldn't help thinking,
gee, these are all exactly

624
00:34:15,485 --> 00:34:17,915
the same, just moving people.

625
00:34:18,595 --> 00:34:20,735
If that's the sort of funeral
a family want, if that's

626
00:34:20,735 --> 00:34:21,925
meaningful for them, that's fine.

627
00:34:21,925 --> 00:34:25,375
But I think the world is changing
and I think people are much

628
00:34:25,395 --> 00:34:29,045
more adept at working out what
they can and can't contribute.

629
00:34:29,215 --> 00:34:32,525
And I use that word crafting,
you know, we love craft beer.

630
00:34:33,065 --> 00:34:37,375
I think, I think people can
get involved in craft services.

631
00:34:37,875 --> 00:34:42,335
And the social aspect of funerals that
they want, and this might be the place

632
00:34:42,335 --> 00:34:48,095
where an organization like ours that
has a charitable base, and we're not

633
00:34:48,165 --> 00:34:52,215
government funded, but we have some
government support where we can take a,

634
00:34:52,775 --> 00:34:57,515
uh, use our facilities and avail those
to a wider sectors of the community so

635
00:34:57,515 --> 00:35:01,195
that We can help people with things that
are very difficult for someone to do.

636
00:35:01,895 --> 00:35:05,505
You know, it's, it's very difficult for
people to move a deceased person unless

637
00:35:05,505 --> 00:35:06,914
you've got some equipment in the vehicle.

638
00:35:07,885 --> 00:35:08,974
You're, you're, you're right.

639
00:35:08,974 --> 00:35:11,665
You asked a question earlier,
Catherine, you know, and do

640
00:35:11,665 --> 00:35:13,044
people want to be more involved?

641
00:35:13,044 --> 00:35:17,075
I dealt with a lovely lady who'd had a
horrible year with her husband dying and

642
00:35:17,595 --> 00:35:19,494
she wanted to be involved in everything.

643
00:35:19,494 --> 00:35:22,315
And I spent a couple of hours with
her and we eventually got to an

644
00:35:22,315 --> 00:35:26,935
understanding that, It just wasn't
possible, you know, if you wanted to move

645
00:35:26,965 --> 00:35:28,555
her husband from this place of death.

646
00:35:28,585 --> 00:35:29,185
Well, where is he?

647
00:35:29,185 --> 00:35:30,165
He's on the fourth floor.

648
00:35:30,175 --> 00:35:31,085
How are you going to do that?

649
00:35:31,085 --> 00:35:32,395
Well, I've got a little sedan.

650
00:35:33,984 --> 00:35:36,505
Who's going to help you do that
if you want to do it yourself?

651
00:35:36,505 --> 00:35:40,035
And it, it wasn't that, she was a very
smart woman, but she was in grief.

652
00:35:40,785 --> 00:35:42,404
So she wanted that involvement.

653
00:35:42,404 --> 00:35:43,985
She wanted to do those things.

654
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,220
Even in grief with a, with a
sensible conversation, she came to

655
00:35:48,220 --> 00:35:51,900
understand that there were aspects
that just weren't logistically easy.

656
00:35:52,500 --> 00:35:54,650
You know, if you can't have the
funeral the next day, you're going

657
00:35:54,650 --> 00:35:57,539
to need somewhere for that deceased
person to be in a professional

658
00:35:57,629 --> 00:35:59,479
refrigerated mortuary facility.

659
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,369
That's not something you have in
your backyard, but these are all

660
00:36:03,370 --> 00:36:06,379
the things that we have, and we've
been using for years to help people.

661
00:36:06,389 --> 00:36:10,675
So we take those facilities, and then
open that wider so that we can bring

662
00:36:10,675 --> 00:36:14,575
people and let them craft the kind of
funerals are and then provide them with

663
00:36:14,575 --> 00:36:19,125
the essential elements that they can't
easily do or provide for themselves.

664
00:36:19,734 --> 00:36:25,225
Because it's, it's one thing to
belittling a little sort of a

665
00:36:25,234 --> 00:36:30,315
romantic idea of a very simple
claim the funeral back for yourself.

666
00:36:30,315 --> 00:36:33,805
But in the practical modern age we
live in, that's Damn near impossible.

667
00:36:34,515 --> 00:36:37,035
Most people are going to need
a little bit of help somewhere.

668
00:36:37,915 --> 00:36:40,275
How much help they need
will depend on the family.

669
00:36:40,915 --> 00:36:46,974
And I think if we're able to, as
a charitable group, find a way to

670
00:36:47,715 --> 00:36:51,754
bridge that gap between people who
are able to pay for a funeral and

671
00:36:51,754 --> 00:36:53,314
therefore choose what they want.

672
00:36:53,885 --> 00:36:57,975
Absolutely not able to pay and need
substantial assistance and this, this

673
00:36:57,975 --> 00:37:02,805
emerging group now in between who are,
as we say, we've discussed at length

674
00:37:02,815 --> 00:37:08,224
here on the edge of financial fragility,
for want of a better word to give them

675
00:37:08,224 --> 00:37:13,480
an option that allows them to They don't
have money, but they do have their effort

676
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,670
and their time and their willingness
so that they contribute to one of the

677
00:37:16,670 --> 00:37:18,610
biggest costs in funerals, which is labor.

678
00:37:19,590 --> 00:37:22,710
You know, the people who work in
funerals are dedicated, hardworking

679
00:37:22,710 --> 00:37:24,290
people who do a hard job.

680
00:37:24,940 --> 00:37:27,910
But you know what, they've got
mortgages and children and cars

681
00:37:27,999 --> 00:37:29,980
and transmissions that break down.

682
00:37:30,460 --> 00:37:31,730
They've got to be paid as well.

683
00:37:31,730 --> 00:37:34,480
And that applies in a
charitable setting as well.

684
00:37:35,230 --> 00:37:41,579
So if the, you know, the, the industry
to enable for us as a, as a, uh, you

685
00:37:41,579 --> 00:37:45,250
know, even as a charitable training
enterprise for us to be there, we've

686
00:37:45,260 --> 00:37:46,610
got to be able to pay the bills.

687
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:51,080
So we need to cover those costs, but those
costs then give us the ability to have

688
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:52,850
those facilities that people could use.

689
00:37:52,850 --> 00:37:53,930
And we could open that up.

690
00:37:54,635 --> 00:37:56,085
That's where we're heading, Catherine.

691
00:37:56,085 --> 00:38:00,525
We think we're going to be able to
help people get funerals at cost.

692
00:38:01,515 --> 00:38:05,245
Catherine: And tell me, who
do you think a funeral is for?

693
00:38:06,235 --> 00:38:07,555
Do you think it's for the living?

694
00:38:07,565 --> 00:38:08,145
Personally?

695
00:38:08,565 --> 00:38:11,634
Or do you think it's for
the person who's died?

696
00:38:11,645 --> 00:38:14,085
Kevin: It's only for the living,
Catherine, in my personal view.

697
00:38:15,050 --> 00:38:16,480
can't be for anyone else.

698
00:38:16,510 --> 00:38:20,440
The, the deceased may have thought
about it and planned it, but again,

699
00:38:20,510 --> 00:38:23,470
a plan is only a thought in the
present moment about the future.

700
00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:26,470
Once that person's died, no one knows.

701
00:38:26,519 --> 00:38:29,420
We could speculate all day on
what happens and whether there's

702
00:38:29,420 --> 00:38:31,430
a spiritual world or an afterlife.

703
00:38:32,189 --> 00:38:34,140
That's, that's a
speculation we'll all have.

704
00:38:34,189 --> 00:38:37,320
But the one thing you can be certain
of, you know, 9 billion people on the

705
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,320
planet and no one's getting out alive.

706
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,989
That person has gone wherever that
person's gone and we won't know.

707
00:38:42,990 --> 00:38:44,700
So the funeral is a social one.

708
00:38:45,150 --> 00:38:50,000
You know, my caveman example, either
was able to see what was going on or

709
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,560
wasn't, and if he was able to see,
he wasn't buying in as a participant.

710
00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:57,270
It was for the other people who were
there and they, you know, and they sat

711
00:38:57,270 --> 00:39:02,970
in that cave for a while and then they
went, Oh, maybe we better take it outside.

712
00:39:03,970 --> 00:39:06,910
And you know, two days later
they went, maybe we better,

713
00:39:06,940 --> 00:39:08,080
Oh, there's a hole over here.

714
00:39:08,130 --> 00:39:10,260
Maybe we put earth in here
and cover him with some earth.

715
00:39:11,430 --> 00:39:13,650
Or if they were a little bit
more advanced and had a fire,

716
00:39:13,650 --> 00:39:14,990
maybe they built a bigger fire.

717
00:39:15,850 --> 00:39:18,830
That's the, you know, I think that
genuinely is the social origin

718
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,459
of, you know, it is social, but
it's very meaningful for us.

719
00:39:21,459 --> 00:39:26,660
It's right in our DNA, because while,
uh, you know, I've got dogs, and one of

720
00:39:26,660 --> 00:39:29,690
the dogs have died over the years, the
other dog will have a quick sniff and

721
00:39:29,690 --> 00:39:30,920
then run off and play with the ball.

722
00:39:31,810 --> 00:39:35,170
Human beings, we have a
different form of intellect.

723
00:39:35,170 --> 00:39:37,320
We're able to see forward
and see backwards.

724
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:38,699
We remember and we remember.

725
00:39:39,060 --> 00:39:44,410
Past our minds into the imagined future,
and that makes us emotional, that makes

726
00:39:44,410 --> 00:39:48,920
us be able to remember what Earth meant to
us when he, when he went out and slew the

727
00:39:48,929 --> 00:39:51,509
saber toothed tiger and saved us that day.

728
00:39:51,989 --> 00:39:55,930
And that's, you know, that's the stuff
that's, it's emotional to us and that,

729
00:39:56,210 --> 00:40:01,210
and the funeral is to address our,
our feelings, our grief, to give us

730
00:40:01,210 --> 00:40:03,600
a pause for reality, a reality check.

731
00:40:03,650 --> 00:40:08,140
Oh, Earth's not here anymore, John's not
here anymore, Grandma's not here anymore.

732
00:40:08,975 --> 00:40:11,385
That's the purpose of it, it's, for me,

733
00:40:11,435 --> 00:40:12,325
Kieran: I can't see.

734
00:40:12,335 --> 00:40:17,815
I wonder if I could mention, thank
you, Kevin, for that little insight

735
00:40:17,815 --> 00:40:22,875
and how it occurs for you because it
just reminds me of what a skill it

736
00:40:22,875 --> 00:40:28,424
is for our funeral directors to take
the vision of the deceased, what they

737
00:40:28,424 --> 00:40:30,314
wanted to see happen when they passed.

738
00:40:31,014 --> 00:40:34,885
Take what the expectation of the
family is and find an acceptable,

739
00:40:34,895 --> 00:40:40,485
dignified blend of the two so that that
works for all parties and the memory.

740
00:40:41,095 --> 00:40:46,470
Of what the deceased was wanting, because
some things Can't happen and but most

741
00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:50,270
things usually can and then the family
have some slightly different ideas.

742
00:40:50,270 --> 00:40:56,239
I'd like to incorporate so the quality
of our professionals Even even in

743
00:40:56,240 --> 00:41:00,220
the charitable sense that not much
money is being spent is right up

744
00:41:00,220 --> 00:41:04,590
there alongside of the ones that
work for the commercial providers.

745
00:41:05,150 --> 00:41:07,590
They've usually come from
those industries originally.

746
00:41:07,700 --> 00:41:10,230
Often that's where their training
was and they were looking for a

747
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:14,650
different way of continuing that
work, a more community based way.

748
00:41:14,650 --> 00:41:18,580
So they, they take that, they take
the deceased wishes expressed by

749
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,199
the family and also in the system.

750
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,679
Often they come to us now and pre plan
what they want so we know what they

751
00:41:23,679 --> 00:41:27,049
want and then take what the family want
and we blend it together in a way that

752
00:41:27,099 --> 00:41:30,659
everybody feels like they got what was
right for the person who passed away.

753
00:41:31,019 --> 00:41:32,609
It's, it's, it's an incredibly.

754
00:41:33,145 --> 00:41:34,875
Gifted skill set that they have.

755
00:41:35,885 --> 00:41:40,765
Catherine: And do you think, Kieran,
that there is a basic element of ritual

756
00:41:40,835 --> 00:41:46,785
that is undertaken as part of the funeral
service that you see is consistently

757
00:41:46,785 --> 00:41:51,304
requested regardless of whether someone
can afford to pay for a funeral or

758
00:41:51,305 --> 00:41:52,924
they can't afford to pay for a funeral?

759
00:41:52,994 --> 00:41:56,795
What, what is the ritualistic
elements that you think that are key?

760
00:41:57,340 --> 00:41:59,030
That you've seen in in that.

761
00:41:59,980 --> 00:42:02,300
Kieran: Yeah, that's a that's
a really interesting question.

762
00:42:02,300 --> 00:42:05,480
It would have been answered
differently five or ten years ago

763
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:10,649
by me Probably is if there's an old
radio program floating around or some

764
00:42:10,650 --> 00:42:12,239
print media that Ted and I had done.

765
00:42:12,730 --> 00:42:14,329
It's changed dramatically now.

766
00:42:14,389 --> 00:42:17,830
Once upon a time you're either
secular or religious, you know, you

767
00:42:17,830 --> 00:42:21,885
wanted the church involved and you
wanted your priest to Do the eulogy

768
00:42:21,895 --> 00:42:23,305
for you and those sorts of things.

769
00:42:23,305 --> 00:42:26,075
And you might've even wanted it in
the church and we do that as well.

770
00:42:26,085 --> 00:42:26,835
There's no problem.

771
00:42:27,445 --> 00:42:30,005
More and more, we notice
people are secular that don't

772
00:42:30,015 --> 00:42:31,245
have a particular religion.

773
00:42:31,245 --> 00:42:34,855
It doesn't mean they don't believe in, in
God or a superior being, but they're just,

774
00:42:34,875 --> 00:42:41,064
they're not practicing any particular
religion and therefore those rituals would

775
00:42:41,065 --> 00:42:43,005
seem similar then they're not anymore.

776
00:42:43,700 --> 00:42:48,240
That people have an individualistic
idea of what they think is fair and

777
00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:49,770
right for the person that passed.

778
00:42:50,300 --> 00:42:52,940
They may not necessarily always
agree with that person either.

779
00:42:52,940 --> 00:42:56,440
They may have had certain wishes and
the family wants something different.

780
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,900
So we, again, we find that blend that
makes sense for everybody because

781
00:42:59,900 --> 00:43:01,239
it's very much about the living.

782
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:05,070
It's the way to dignify the
person's passing and provide a

783
00:43:05,070 --> 00:43:08,520
lovely memory for the family to go
away and feel like they did right.

784
00:43:09,475 --> 00:43:12,545
It's important for families to feel
like they did what they could and they

785
00:43:12,545 --> 00:43:17,135
did right by the person who passed away
because at that point you're largely

786
00:43:17,135 --> 00:43:20,485
remembering all the fun and wonderful
things that that person did in their

787
00:43:20,485 --> 00:43:22,675
life, either for you or for others.

788
00:43:23,105 --> 00:43:25,465
It's the nature of, of death, isn't it?

789
00:43:25,475 --> 00:43:28,895
We all of a sudden remember all the
good times and that's a good thing.

790
00:43:29,590 --> 00:43:32,480
So, no, we don't have a specific
thing that seems to come up too often,

791
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,990
unless it's very religiously based,
and then it's all very, very similar,

792
00:43:36,450 --> 00:43:40,980
Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, we do, you
know, generally speaking, if it's church

793
00:43:40,980 --> 00:43:44,870
based, it's very similar in that way,
the ritual is similar, Catholic and

794
00:43:44,870 --> 00:43:46,940
whatnot, the secular stuff's interesting.

795
00:43:47,455 --> 00:43:52,395
It's part of our thinking, though, that
we need to apply a level of flexibility

796
00:43:52,395 --> 00:43:54,005
around that for people, you know.

797
00:43:54,325 --> 00:43:57,855
Certainly there are some things that
are probably just too, too hard to do,

798
00:43:57,885 --> 00:44:00,215
but most things are doable in some way.

799
00:44:00,674 --> 00:44:03,575
And we like to be as flexible as we
can with people's wishes, even the

800
00:44:03,575 --> 00:44:05,434
ones that can't afford very much.

801
00:44:06,155 --> 00:44:09,115
We like to see what we can do that
personalizes it for them, so that

802
00:44:09,115 --> 00:44:11,825
they're left with that beautiful
memory of, It didn't matter

803
00:44:11,825 --> 00:44:13,025
that I didn't have enough money.

804
00:44:13,025 --> 00:44:15,405
There was no difference in
how I honoured my mother when

805
00:44:15,405 --> 00:44:16,795
she left, that sort of thing.

806
00:44:16,795 --> 00:44:17,194
I

807
00:44:17,775 --> 00:44:21,724
Kevin: think a funeral, Catherine,
what you're hoping for out

808
00:44:21,765 --> 00:44:23,485
the end of it is meaning.

809
00:44:24,195 --> 00:44:26,835
You're looking for something that's
meaningful, and traditionally

810
00:44:26,835 --> 00:44:28,494
this is what ritual did.

811
00:44:28,494 --> 00:44:30,155
Ritual provided meaning.

812
00:44:31,460 --> 00:44:32,680
Meaning for people.

813
00:44:32,700 --> 00:44:36,550
And it also takes a, an enormous
amount of stress out of things.

814
00:44:37,270 --> 00:44:43,160
Orthodox religions and, uh, who have
strict customs, the people engaged in

815
00:44:43,180 --> 00:44:46,780
the families engaged in the funeral are
far less stressed than most of the rest

816
00:44:46,780 --> 00:44:51,240
of us, because they know what's going to
happen because it's happened for the last

817
00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:53,590
thousand years and they're going to do it.

818
00:44:53,590 --> 00:44:58,040
And it might not seem as personal to
ask us as Karen alludes, we're in a

819
00:44:58,060 --> 00:45:00,120
very individual individualistic age.

820
00:45:01,260 --> 00:45:05,100
We're raised to think that we're a
single entity and we're important,

821
00:45:05,100 --> 00:45:08,410
and probably we're not, but there
we go, that's how we're raised.

822
00:45:08,470 --> 00:45:13,960
Watching this as a provider of
funerals, I'm seeing that it's, I

823
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,299
think it's becoming more difficult
for people often to find that

824
00:45:17,299 --> 00:45:18,979
meaning in the absence of ritual.

825
00:45:19,850 --> 00:45:26,910
So, again, it's, I think that simply
having a pause and a gathering is probably

826
00:45:26,910 --> 00:45:28,800
the common element of all funerals.

827
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:28,854
Thanks.

828
00:45:29,495 --> 00:45:34,865
Whether you sing a particular song or you,
you know, you, you, uh, march around the

829
00:45:34,885 --> 00:45:41,805
coffin holding incense for two hours on
the night before, or you, uh, have holy

830
00:45:41,805 --> 00:45:46,764
water and blessings and olive oil and, you
know, any of the various, uh, traditional

831
00:45:46,764 --> 00:45:52,920
customs, they're probably less important,
but I, I think there's a, One of the

832
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,610
things, ah, this is an excellent point.

833
00:45:54,910 --> 00:45:57,970
One of the things that happens in
the funeral industry commercially

834
00:45:57,970 --> 00:46:01,989
since, you know, kicked off in the
late 80s with the advent of simplicity

835
00:46:01,989 --> 00:46:07,489
funerals, who were the original price
discounters, is that people became

836
00:46:07,490 --> 00:46:09,319
more price sensitive on funerals.

837
00:46:09,330 --> 00:46:14,025
So now there's a whole group of people,
probably about 20%, Who only look at

838
00:46:14,055 --> 00:46:18,725
the cost, and I think that's to their
psychological and social detriment.

839
00:46:19,595 --> 00:46:22,215
If they're simply going to say, well,
I'm going to have the absolute minimum

840
00:46:22,215 --> 00:46:25,675
service, I'm just going to have a, and
this is not to say that this isn't right

841
00:46:25,685 --> 00:46:29,084
for some people, but to say, I'm not
going to have a funeral service at all.

842
00:46:30,055 --> 00:46:30,964
What is there?

843
00:46:31,805 --> 00:46:32,845
What is there socially?

844
00:46:32,845 --> 00:46:33,975
Where's the meaning in that?

845
00:46:35,095 --> 00:46:38,010
Unless the person was just really,
terrible to them or something,

846
00:46:38,010 --> 00:46:40,160
and they, you know, they just
wanted to get rid of them.

847
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:40,750
I don't know.

848
00:46:41,580 --> 00:46:45,410
But ritual is powerful if it's meaningful
to you, if it's part of your culture.

849
00:46:45,410 --> 00:46:46,740
If it isn't, it's purposeless.

850
00:46:46,965 --> 00:46:50,905
But I think in the absence of
ritual, we need something else

851
00:46:50,935 --> 00:46:52,405
that gives meaning to the funeral.

852
00:46:52,995 --> 00:46:57,455
And it's, it's the thing that gives
meaning to suffering, uh, is sharing it.

853
00:46:58,175 --> 00:47:03,735
And that's, you sit down with a group
of people, or Ert and his family sit in

854
00:47:03,745 --> 00:47:08,675
the cave, or we gather at a crematorium,
but, and, and this was the key thing

855
00:47:08,675 --> 00:47:13,375
that, uh, Ted Worthington and Kieran
and his brother in following on.

856
00:47:13,780 --> 00:47:16,720
have provided people is those
original proper funerals.

857
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:17,530
There was no funeral.

858
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:18,790
There was no service.

859
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:23,080
So even if a person was homeless and
had three homeless friends, those poor

860
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:27,209
three homeless friends didn't even get
the opportunity to make some meaning

861
00:47:27,210 --> 00:47:29,080
out of that, that person's death.

862
00:47:30,050 --> 00:47:34,010
So as a, as a social commentator,
not a funeral director, because

863
00:47:34,010 --> 00:47:36,890
I don't think of myself quite so
much as a funeral director anymore.

864
00:47:36,890 --> 00:47:38,400
We're in a charitable space now.

865
00:47:38,460 --> 00:47:39,790
Our job is to help people.

866
00:47:40,290 --> 00:47:45,240
And help social stability and help
the environment, but I, as a social

867
00:47:45,250 --> 00:47:51,640
commentator, I think we're, if we just
chase price, which then means less

868
00:47:51,690 --> 00:47:55,590
and less service and less and less
possibility of meaningful service,

869
00:47:55,690 --> 00:47:57,339
I think we're doing an injustice.

870
00:47:58,345 --> 00:48:01,685
Not judging people who do that,
that's a personal choice and

871
00:48:01,715 --> 00:48:03,715
individual variance is guaranteed.

872
00:48:04,275 --> 00:48:08,254
But I think if we're not, as a
society, and you know, our part in

873
00:48:08,254 --> 00:48:13,435
that as a charity is to fill parts of
societal lacks that perhaps government

874
00:48:13,454 --> 00:48:17,184
haven't seen yet, or can't fill,
or other people don't want to fill.

875
00:48:17,555 --> 00:48:21,705
We need to fill that so that when people
die they have the opportunity at least

876
00:48:21,715 --> 00:48:23,235
to make some meaning of that death.

877
00:48:24,025 --> 00:48:27,245
Because otherwise, I think we're ending
up with a whole group of scarred people

878
00:48:27,245 --> 00:48:30,705
out there, and they're probably not
quite sure why they're scarred, because

879
00:48:30,705 --> 00:48:34,635
a funeral, a funeral is the start
point in many senses for addressing

880
00:48:34,635 --> 00:48:35,835
the grief that comes with death.

881
00:48:35,885 --> 00:48:38,405
Kieran: Here's an interesting thing
that crops up from what you're saying,

882
00:48:38,435 --> 00:48:43,704
Kevin, and that is that what I've,
what I've noticed is ritual came about

883
00:48:43,704 --> 00:48:48,105
originally because it was usually
around the honoring of a supreme being

884
00:48:48,105 --> 00:48:54,205
of some sort, but before Christianity,
it was Ra and onward and so forth.

885
00:48:54,315 --> 00:48:54,735
Okay.

886
00:48:55,735 --> 00:49:02,065
It then became a way to avoid emotion,
inadvertently, I think, not deliberately.

887
00:49:02,125 --> 00:49:05,405
I think what it did, it became the
thing you did so you didn't have to

888
00:49:05,434 --> 00:49:06,995
think or feel about what had happened.

889
00:49:07,515 --> 00:49:09,985
Because if you can just say,
Oh, we go down to Smith and,

890
00:49:10,194 --> 00:49:12,464
and son, they take care of it.

891
00:49:12,464 --> 00:49:14,335
They've done every
generation of our family.

892
00:49:14,604 --> 00:49:15,505
There's an order to it.

893
00:49:15,565 --> 00:49:16,175
We know what it is.

894
00:49:16,175 --> 00:49:19,155
We just have to pick colors
and flowers and bits and I

895
00:49:19,155 --> 00:49:20,145
don't have to think too much.

896
00:49:20,145 --> 00:49:21,615
I don't have to feel too much.

897
00:49:21,615 --> 00:49:23,585
I can worry about how I'm feeling later.

898
00:49:24,265 --> 00:49:25,135
And we go through this.

899
00:49:25,455 --> 00:49:29,505
Processes, commercial funeral directors,
you know, which we've been all of

900
00:49:29,505 --> 00:49:32,065
us at some point and we say, okay.

901
00:49:33,125 --> 00:49:36,515
We're at that point now, and then
something breaks, and it's usually

902
00:49:36,525 --> 00:49:40,585
right there in the service, and that's
when the sobbing and the crying begins.

903
00:49:41,295 --> 00:49:43,945
Everyone would have seen that at a
funeral, and that's because everything's

904
00:49:43,945 --> 00:49:45,725
been on hold up until that moment.

905
00:49:47,064 --> 00:49:49,235
And I think ritual's responsible for that.

906
00:49:49,505 --> 00:49:54,985
As, as, as comfortable as ritual is, and
as necessary as it seems, it's required.

907
00:49:55,585 --> 00:50:00,415
What we're now discovering is that in
this individualistic society, where

908
00:50:00,415 --> 00:50:04,785
people get to assert their How, who
they are and how they see themselves,

909
00:50:05,425 --> 00:50:09,965
they can become more involved in the
funeral preparation from the beginning.

910
00:50:10,685 --> 00:50:14,625
And as they're doing the work with the
funeral provider, they're beginning the

911
00:50:14,625 --> 00:50:19,095
grieving process and it's coming out in
bits and pieces of emotion here and there.

912
00:50:19,485 --> 00:50:23,035
It's feeding in to the final result,
which is the funeral, which is a

913
00:50:23,045 --> 00:50:26,765
beautiful thing because it's heartfelt
and it's natural, but at the same

914
00:50:26,785 --> 00:50:30,355
time, it's alleviating the pressure
for the person as they get involved.

915
00:50:30,785 --> 00:50:33,205
They think about the words,
they start to write the eulogy

916
00:50:33,235 --> 00:50:34,465
with the funeral director.

917
00:50:34,615 --> 00:50:36,725
They don't just give them a
few points and let them do it.

918
00:50:37,375 --> 00:50:39,834
You know, they think about what sort
of flowers, whether they're from

919
00:50:39,835 --> 00:50:42,975
the garden or they're from grandma's
garden, those sorts of things, instead

920
00:50:42,975 --> 00:50:45,055
of just a flower provider at a price.

921
00:50:45,805 --> 00:50:47,624
They think about personalizing coffins.

922
00:50:47,625 --> 00:50:50,465
We've done that for several people
in the past, have personalized

923
00:50:50,505 --> 00:50:54,085
coffins, had all the kids sign
a white coffin in colored pens.

924
00:50:54,270 --> 00:50:58,070
We've done that for my own family
members and that begins to let that

925
00:50:58,070 --> 00:51:01,630
emotion start to escape and start
to become real and become natural.

926
00:51:01,630 --> 00:51:06,080
And then by the time you get to the
service, interestingly enough, not as

927
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:11,810
much blow up, not as much explosion of
crying and upset and grief and wailing.

928
00:51:12,830 --> 00:51:16,470
Which can then trigger all sorts of
uncomfortable feelings for people who

929
00:51:16,470 --> 00:51:18,800
weren't there and find themselves in that.

930
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:23,270
I think getting involved and doing
something about it is going to be

931
00:51:23,270 --> 00:51:26,939
the key to the future for people
because it will alleviate some of

932
00:51:26,940 --> 00:51:29,340
the pressure built by the grief.

933
00:51:29,370 --> 00:51:32,890
It'll let it out in pieces leading
up to and then including the funeral.

934
00:51:33,350 --> 00:51:36,820
And then the tears are probably
more gentle and more heartfelt

935
00:51:36,830 --> 00:51:39,390
than just explosions of emotion.

936
00:51:40,380 --> 00:51:40,650
Known.

937
00:51:40,650 --> 00:51:41,430
Less meaningful.

938
00:51:42,830 --> 00:51:42,920
Catherine: I know.

939
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:43,100
In a

940
00:51:43,100 --> 00:51:46,310
Kevin: way then, Karen, sorry, I'm just
thinking about this as you, as you're

941
00:51:46,310 --> 00:51:48,920
saying is, I don't think I've ever heard
you say this before, so I'm guessing

942
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:54,820
it's a new thought in a, in a way, the
lack of ritual that I'm speaking about.

943
00:51:55,230 --> 00:51:59,250
You think that could be replaced
by the, the engagement to make

944
00:51:59,250 --> 00:52:03,080
the preparation of the funeral the
ritual, but rather than it being

945
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,025
ritualized, it's a little more fluid.

946
00:52:06,210 --> 00:52:07,040
Kieran: Yes, I think so.

947
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:10,870
I think what this is becoming that we're
talking about it in our board meetings

948
00:52:10,870 --> 00:52:15,720
and what we're trying to discover the
ability for us to do and create on behalf

949
00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:20,750
of folks that want to is a way for this
to become a more cathartic exercise

950
00:52:21,140 --> 00:52:24,580
whilst honouring the person that they've
lost so it's all wrapped together and

951
00:52:24,650 --> 00:52:29,700
everyone comes out feeling better given
that something pretty awful has happened.

952
00:52:29,700 --> 00:52:31,540
And often death is unexpected.

953
00:52:31,550 --> 00:52:32,570
It's not expected.

954
00:52:32,570 --> 00:52:35,210
So this is a better outcome for society.

955
00:52:36,465 --> 00:52:40,294
Catherine, I'm going to pretend you
asked me a question if it's all right.

956
00:52:40,475 --> 00:52:42,925
Feel free to pop it in, pop
it in ahead when you edit.

957
00:52:43,055 --> 00:52:44,015
That's what works.

958
00:52:44,255 --> 00:52:47,915
Or even better, don't, because if you
keep this bit in, it'd be terrific.

959
00:52:47,995 --> 00:52:49,925
Catherine: Yeah, exactly.

960
00:52:50,925 --> 00:52:54,425
Kieran: Here's what we're doing that no
one really understands and that we find

961
00:52:54,425 --> 00:52:56,315
it very difficult to put a measurement on.

962
00:52:57,325 --> 00:53:00,345
And I'm going to refer to that fellow
that I was talking about who is a

963
00:53:00,355 --> 00:53:05,255
real fellow, genuine fellow, had his
transmission gone in his car and he

964
00:53:05,255 --> 00:53:09,234
couldn't afford the two thousand dollars
to replace it because that was the cost.

965
00:53:09,235 --> 00:53:09,865
I knew that.

966
00:53:10,295 --> 00:53:12,065
And his car probably
wasn't even worth that.

967
00:53:13,054 --> 00:53:15,335
He wouldn't be able to borrow
the money or justify doing it.

968
00:53:15,345 --> 00:53:16,405
So he would be carless.

969
00:53:16,835 --> 00:53:20,485
He would have children to see to schools
to get them to doctor's appointments.

970
00:53:21,135 --> 00:53:22,465
He would be so stressed.

971
00:53:22,515 --> 00:53:23,605
He would break down.

972
00:53:24,615 --> 00:53:29,005
When he breaks down, four children
suffer, those children are traumatized,

973
00:53:29,465 --> 00:53:30,975
doesn't matter if it was meant or not.

974
00:53:31,945 --> 00:53:35,574
At least one of those children will
have criminal intent sometime in their

975
00:53:35,574 --> 00:53:37,285
life and will act on it out of trauma.

976
00:53:38,295 --> 00:53:42,755
That act will then affect other people
in society, you or me, in some way,

977
00:53:43,715 --> 00:53:46,645
via violence, theft, or otherwise.

978
00:53:47,825 --> 00:53:53,170
What we are doing is we're trying to kind
of, Let some steam escape by taking care

979
00:53:53,170 --> 00:53:56,330
of the folks that are really so close to
the edge that you don't know what's going

980
00:53:56,330 --> 00:53:59,810
to happen after this and you don't know
generationally what this is going to do if

981
00:53:59,810 --> 00:54:01,200
you don't help them when they need help.

982
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:02,839
This is what TED was all about.

983
00:54:02,839 --> 00:54:03,990
It's about community.

984
00:54:04,410 --> 00:54:09,099
It's about helping the people in desperate
need and you might be that person one day

985
00:54:09,099 --> 00:54:10,760
and need that same help by somebody else.

986
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,760
Bit of luck, you'd already helped them
and they were keen to help you back.

987
00:54:14,450 --> 00:54:16,440
It's kind of like small
town stuff, but it works.

988
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:21,209
So you think about the greater effect
of us ignoring the fact that there are

989
00:54:21,210 --> 00:54:25,809
people more and more now and we're not
just talking once upon a time in Victoria

990
00:54:25,810 --> 00:54:28,930
it was tens of thousands and we would
get a small percentage of that to help.

991
00:54:28,959 --> 00:54:31,720
We are now talking hundreds
of thousands of people.

992
00:54:32,330 --> 00:54:35,760
You know, Melbourne is a six
million, oh sorry, Victoria is a

993
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:41,150
six million coming up to population
and the percentages don't shift.

994
00:54:41,470 --> 00:54:45,110
That much so there are a lot
more people right on the edge.

995
00:54:45,540 --> 00:54:48,900
And if a funeral is the thing that tips
them over, goodness me, don't we all

996
00:54:48,940 --> 00:54:50,680
pay the price if no one's there to help?

997
00:54:51,679 --> 00:54:54,570
So there's a greater social
benefit to what we do than just the

998
00:54:54,580 --> 00:54:56,300
taking care of the funeral itself.

999
00:54:56,410 --> 00:54:57,740
I truly believe that.

1000
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:00,149
Catherine: It's interesting
that you say that.

1001
00:55:00,169 --> 00:55:05,950
I was in a meeting the other day
and we each had to recall our

1002
00:55:06,170 --> 00:55:09,230
earliest memory of when someone died.

1003
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:11,600
And it is always.

1004
00:55:11,935 --> 00:55:18,095
That impression that, uh, generally a
grandchild, uh, has of a grandparent's

1005
00:55:18,115 --> 00:55:23,945
funeral and that is generally the first
introduction someone has to death, uh,

1006
00:55:24,575 --> 00:55:29,115
if, if they're fortunate or you know,
that is the sort of natural progression

1007
00:55:29,125 --> 00:55:33,805
that they've aged, they've, they've
died, uh, and the grandchild attends

1008
00:55:33,805 --> 00:55:35,735
that as a first introduction to death.

1009
00:55:36,535 --> 00:55:40,635
And that's interesting with what
you're saying, because that.

1010
00:55:41,390 --> 00:55:48,330
has a direct impact on that child
is how that funeral is, is held, uh,

1011
00:55:48,340 --> 00:55:50,480
how that person's life is celebrated.

1012
00:55:50,890 --> 00:55:54,860
Uh, and it, it does have
a huge flow on effect.

1013
00:55:55,279 --> 00:55:59,849
And these were all adult women and
men in their, their forties, fifties,

1014
00:55:59,849 --> 00:56:02,709
and sixties recalling these stories.

1015
00:56:02,710 --> 00:56:09,415
So that has a very long lived impact,
uh, when you attend a funeral.

1016
00:56:10,385 --> 00:56:10,605
Kieran: Yeah.

1017
00:56:10,605 --> 00:56:14,635
It's, it's, it's amazing when it's, it's
a little bit scary too, when you start

1018
00:56:14,635 --> 00:56:18,184
to unravel what that looks like and you
realize, yeah, that there's, you know,

1019
00:56:18,185 --> 00:56:19,865
I can speak from personal experience.

1020
00:56:19,964 --> 00:56:23,545
I won't, but that child is in a situation
where all of a sudden something,

1021
00:56:23,795 --> 00:56:27,395
Terrible has happened is the way they
perceive it because as Westerners,

1022
00:56:27,395 --> 00:56:28,435
we're not real good with death.

1023
00:56:28,495 --> 00:56:30,145
We don't like to acknowledge it very much.

1024
00:56:30,325 --> 00:56:32,465
Certainly don't like thinking
about it or planning it.

1025
00:56:32,505 --> 00:56:34,995
That's just for some reason,
that's something that's crept

1026
00:56:34,995 --> 00:56:36,105
in over the generations.

1027
00:56:36,505 --> 00:56:37,975
So they don't get a lot.

1028
00:56:38,075 --> 00:56:38,694
There's the kid.

1029
00:56:38,695 --> 00:56:40,105
He doesn't get a lot of information.

1030
00:56:40,115 --> 00:56:42,014
He or she, all of a sudden
they realize there's a lot of

1031
00:56:42,014 --> 00:56:43,465
tension and upset in the family.

1032
00:56:43,485 --> 00:56:45,055
Usually one side more than the other.

1033
00:56:45,065 --> 00:56:46,035
Mom's crying a lot.

1034
00:56:46,045 --> 00:56:46,375
Why?

1035
00:56:46,435 --> 00:56:47,305
Dad's really angry.

1036
00:56:47,315 --> 00:56:48,435
I can't understand why.

1037
00:56:48,955 --> 00:56:49,365
Okay.

1038
00:56:49,365 --> 00:56:50,195
Oh, well, grandma died.

1039
00:56:50,325 --> 00:56:50,684
Grandpa died.

1040
00:56:50,685 --> 00:56:51,805
Oh, okay.

1041
00:56:51,835 --> 00:56:53,245
But they don't tell you very much else.

1042
00:56:53,595 --> 00:56:55,515
Most cases, this is what happens.

1043
00:56:55,995 --> 00:56:58,815
Then next thing you know, the
bill or the possibility of a bill

1044
00:56:58,815 --> 00:57:00,315
arrives, and boy doesn't it erupt.

1045
00:57:00,315 --> 00:57:02,655
Then if there are a family that
are a little bit on the edge or

1046
00:57:02,655 --> 00:57:05,835
only just have enough money to
get by, then the arguments start.

1047
00:57:05,835 --> 00:57:07,755
Then the fights, all sorts of things.

1048
00:57:07,755 --> 00:57:09,165
Trauma is just building.

1049
00:57:09,585 --> 00:57:11,685
It's building for everyone in the family.

1050
00:57:11,955 --> 00:57:15,135
Most importantly, it's building at
a formative phase for the child,

1051
00:57:15,775 --> 00:57:17,485
and they associate that with death.

1052
00:57:18,595 --> 00:57:21,545
And they get upset and they get angry
and they act out at some point, as

1053
00:57:21,545 --> 00:57:24,485
all children do, usually in your
teenage years, sometimes all the

1054
00:57:24,485 --> 00:57:28,115
way through to your twenties, maybe
thirties, this stuff sits in there.

1055
00:57:28,525 --> 00:57:32,625
Imagine if then you're in a situation
where even though money was a problem

1056
00:57:32,645 --> 00:57:35,805
and mum and dad were upset and stressed
out, that there was someone there to

1057
00:57:35,805 --> 00:57:39,805
help them through and that the child was
allowed to be part of the organisation.

1058
00:57:39,925 --> 00:57:42,685
They were allowed to sign the coffin
with a coloured pen, for instance.

1059
00:57:43,300 --> 00:57:45,320
Well, they're allowed to have
some of their words included

1060
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:49,260
in the eulogy or a little poem,
maybe a little pressed flower.

1061
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:52,750
All these things are possible
and then they're not expensive.

1062
00:57:53,010 --> 00:57:54,800
They just need people with
heart and a little bit of

1063
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:56,390
time to make it, get it right.

1064
00:57:56,870 --> 00:57:57,740
We can do that.

1065
00:57:58,060 --> 00:57:58,829
We do do that.

1066
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:01,920
We're thinking about how we can do that
for a lot more people because all of

1067
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:05,060
a sudden there is a lot more people
that are going to need that coming up.

1068
00:58:06,095 --> 00:58:10,215
Catherine: And I know Kieran, when we
were planning Roland's funeral, it was

1069
00:58:10,255 --> 00:58:16,265
the little stories when we, the children
were deciding what to have as the flowers

1070
00:58:16,265 --> 00:58:22,474
or what to have as the food or the music,
uh, at his wake after he was cremated.

1071
00:58:22,735 --> 00:58:27,835
It was those little things in the
storytelling that actually meant that

1072
00:58:27,835 --> 00:58:30,655
when we actually got to the memorial.

1073
00:58:31,725 --> 00:58:36,065
It was, it was still emotional and we,
we still had all of those feelings,

1074
00:58:36,425 --> 00:58:40,915
but there wasn't that pressure cooker
that you were actually referring to.

1075
00:58:40,965 --> 00:58:43,835
You know, we feel like we'd,
we'd dealt with a few of those

1076
00:58:43,845 --> 00:58:47,325
things by being able to tell those
stories and share those stories.

1077
00:58:48,105 --> 00:58:52,564
Kieran: Yeah, there's this real sense
of relief and peace in, in the sharing

1078
00:58:52,624 --> 00:58:55,644
and a family that have the ability
to open up their dialogue in a way,

1079
00:58:55,654 --> 00:59:00,504
particularly at such a, uh, a stressful
event that people can share in that way.

1080
00:59:01,060 --> 00:59:02,480
And try to lift the spirits of others.

1081
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:04,500
Oh, I remember when uncle Donald did this.

1082
00:59:04,500 --> 00:59:05,490
Wasn't that so funny?

1083
00:59:05,490 --> 00:59:06,240
Oh, goodness me.

1084
00:59:06,250 --> 00:59:08,520
Oh, you should have seen the time
you did these sorts of things.

1085
00:59:08,780 --> 00:59:11,500
It's that's letting that,
letting the steam out.

1086
00:59:11,549 --> 00:59:15,070
Well, you know, it's that, that's the
cathartic experience at the same time.

1087
00:59:15,070 --> 00:59:17,519
It's building the love
for the deceased as well.

1088
00:59:18,140 --> 00:59:20,550
Because let's face it, you really
go through life where you have

1089
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:22,160
the same emotion about a person.

1090
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:24,230
It's up and it's down and
it's upset and it's love.

1091
00:59:24,230 --> 00:59:24,930
There's all sorts.

1092
00:59:25,300 --> 00:59:27,870
And you tend to find the love coming
through when the people are able

1093
00:59:27,870 --> 00:59:30,480
to communicate how they're feeling
about it and what they remember.

1094
00:59:30,940 --> 00:59:31,959
It's a beautiful thing.

1095
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:35,700
That starts with the funeral
director assisting the family

1096
00:59:35,709 --> 00:59:37,240
in making the funeral happen.

1097
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,100
Because that funeral director
sets the pace and the ability

1098
00:59:40,100 --> 00:59:41,200
for the people to do that.

1099
00:59:42,010 --> 00:59:43,390
It's quite a skill set, you know.

1100
00:59:43,500 --> 00:59:46,210
It's very special what's
being done actually.

1101
00:59:46,210 --> 00:59:46,279
I agree.

1102
00:59:47,210 --> 00:59:49,720
Kevin: Suffering and grief
are not necessarily trauma.

1103
00:59:50,740 --> 00:59:55,240
Trauma is perhaps events of suffering
and grief that are unexpected or

1104
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:57,310
extreme or coming out of nowhere.

1105
00:59:57,310 --> 00:59:59,550
And that's really what
Kieran's talking about there.

1106
00:59:59,949 --> 01:00:04,689
And I think you're right, Kieran, I think
that the preparation towards that event,

1107
01:00:04,700 --> 01:00:09,459
it can be as sad as it might be, as it
potentially can be, but what you don't

1108
01:00:09,459 --> 01:00:13,410
want is an explosion in the middle of
it that the children don't understand.

1109
01:00:13,410 --> 01:00:14,930
And in fact, people don't understand.

1110
01:00:15,930 --> 01:00:18,280
And that's, I'd say a
little bit of trauma.

1111
01:00:18,805 --> 01:00:23,185
I think you picked up on something else
that you said there too about people

1112
01:00:23,275 --> 01:00:26,975
still not, still even in this age, not
being comfortable talking about death.

1113
01:00:27,925 --> 01:00:32,005
And we probably don't have time today
and it's a bit off subject, but one of

1114
01:00:32,025 --> 01:00:36,675
the most fascinating social psychological
studies that I've ever looked at is around

1115
01:00:37,270 --> 01:00:41,440
What they call mortality salience, or in
plain English, being aware that you're

1116
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:47,820
going to die, which is a perhaps a subject
for another day, but it's, it's the secret

1117
01:00:47,820 --> 01:00:52,849
and the thing that we can address by
talking more and certainly by pre planning

1118
01:00:53,190 --> 01:00:55,050
funerals, or at least thinking about it.

1119
01:00:55,760 --> 01:01:00,750
And, and some of the most
usefully pre planned funerals

1120
01:01:00,750 --> 01:01:02,450
I've ever been engaged with.

1121
01:01:02,830 --> 01:01:07,830
Is where the deceased said, I want to
be buried, and this is my birthday,

1122
01:01:07,990 --> 01:01:09,570
and let the family work the rest out.

1123
01:01:10,550 --> 01:01:15,299
Here's the money to cover it, here's the
money to cover it, I want to be buried,

1124
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:18,989
I won't be buried there next to grandma
or whatever it is, here's my name, here's

1125
01:01:18,989 --> 01:01:20,759
my details, they can work the rest out.

1126
01:01:21,330 --> 01:01:25,920
And I actually learned that, yeah, I, I
had that experience directly with a very

1127
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:30,980
elderly guy and I, and I realized he
was right and I used to then not promote

1128
01:01:31,050 --> 01:01:32,359
that, but I'd tell people about it.

1129
01:01:32,359 --> 01:01:34,919
And I, most of the time I'd go
out to prearrange a funeral of the

1130
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:38,570
family and people would take three
hours and I'd take 25 minutes and

1131
01:01:38,570 --> 01:01:42,630
the outcome was much, much better
because Back to your first question,

1132
01:01:42,780 --> 01:01:44,150
Catherine, funerals are for the living.

1133
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:45,880
Catherine: That's true.

1134
01:01:46,770 --> 01:01:53,110
And is there any advice that you would
like to share with the audience if

1135
01:01:53,110 --> 01:01:58,429
they find themselves in a financially
hard situation and they're facing

1136
01:01:58,429 --> 01:02:03,420
a funeral or they, you know, do
they need to put money aside?

1137
01:02:03,710 --> 01:02:05,920
What's your, your suggestions?

1138
01:02:06,540 --> 01:02:07,980
Kevin, I might start with you.

1139
01:02:07,980 --> 01:02:08,069
Sure.

1140
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:10,100
Kevin: I was hoping
you'd start with Kiran.

1141
01:02:10,100 --> 01:02:11,930
Well, I thought, but
nevertheless, we'll have a crack

1142
01:02:12,830 --> 01:02:15,380
.
Catherine: You can take it
in either, either turn Kiran,

1143
01:02:15,380 --> 01:02:16,640
it can go to you if you like.

1144
01:02:17,215 --> 01:02:20,070
Kieran: I'm happy, Kev, if you want I,
I I already know what I'm gonna say.

1145
01:02:21,180 --> 01:02:21,960
.
Kevin: Oh, no.

1146
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:22,470
Have a go.

1147
01:02:22,470 --> 01:02:23,280
It's, it's funny.

1148
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:28,160
They're the, they're the, the, the tone
of, of wrap up questions of interviews.

1149
01:02:28,220 --> 01:02:30,020
What, what's your one piece of advice?

1150
01:02:30,020 --> 01:02:30,435
And I, yeah.

1151
01:02:30,835 --> 01:02:33,830
I, I'm based in Adelaide, in the
Adelaide Fringe festivals zone, and I

1152
01:02:33,890 --> 01:02:36,380
found myself in the city and the fringe.

1153
01:02:36,955 --> 01:02:41,145
having a meal and in a very busy cafe and
there was a young couple sitting next to

1154
01:02:41,145 --> 01:02:46,424
me and my friend who'd been together for
many years and he was a African man and he

1155
01:02:46,424 --> 01:02:50,285
said you look like you've been together a
very great long time what's the secret and

1156
01:02:50,285 --> 01:02:55,455
I thought how the hell can I tell you that
there is no one thing that I can tell you

1157
01:02:56,025 --> 01:03:00,905
so I'm not sure that there is one piece of
advice that I've got um thinking thinking

1158
01:03:00,905 --> 01:03:06,054
about or being consciously aware that
you're going to die actually makes your

1159
01:03:06,054 --> 01:03:08,820
life better Not morbidly attracted to it.

1160
01:03:08,820 --> 01:03:11,710
Don't sit down all day and,
you know, contemplate your end.

1161
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:12,910
That makes it better.

1162
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:17,260
If money's a problem, you know,
I'm interested in crowdfunding

1163
01:03:17,290 --> 01:03:18,329
funerals now, Catherine.

1164
01:03:18,329 --> 01:03:21,560
I don't think I've thought about that
too much until we've just talked to you.

1165
01:03:22,270 --> 01:03:28,920
If you're a Victorian, I'd call our
charity, actually, um, because we, as a

1166
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:35,020
charity, we aren't fighting commercially
to conduct the funeral for your family.

1167
01:03:35,210 --> 01:03:37,069
If we can help you, we do that.

1168
01:03:37,780 --> 01:03:40,789
If we're not the best person to help
you do that, we'll tell you we're not

1169
01:03:40,820 --> 01:03:42,290
the best person to help you do that.

1170
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:48,570
It doesn't matter, because As a charity
and most charities, our funding is limited

1171
01:03:49,060 --> 01:03:51,530
and we want to deploy that funding.

1172
01:03:51,690 --> 01:03:55,799
At this stage, it's almost like a triage
where we say, what's the worst case?

1173
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:56,540
Who can we help?

1174
01:03:56,540 --> 01:03:58,079
Who's in the most distress?

1175
01:03:58,529 --> 01:04:02,019
And that's the history of this
organization for 27 years.

1176
01:04:02,660 --> 01:04:06,369
And now what we're doing, of
course, is saying, there are people

1177
01:04:06,369 --> 01:04:07,620
in a different sort of distress.

1178
01:04:07,620 --> 01:04:08,580
How can we help them?

1179
01:04:08,580 --> 01:04:12,020
How can we Take what we have,
the facilities we have, the

1180
01:04:12,020 --> 01:04:16,090
capacities and the resources we
have, and stretch it even further.

1181
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:19,260
It's Merlin the Magician stuff,
but we're about to do it.

1182
01:04:20,269 --> 01:04:22,290
Kieran: Well, I'm, I'm gonna be simple.

1183
01:04:23,069 --> 01:04:24,029
I hope that's okay.

1184
01:04:24,910 --> 01:04:29,149
I'm just gonna say, folks, get
onto the website, CriticalInfo.

1185
01:04:29,839 --> 01:04:35,600
Understand what it is you're involved
in, and then contact us, and if

1186
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:37,930
you're still with us, organize it.

1187
01:04:38,470 --> 01:04:39,420
We can do that for you.

1188
01:04:40,385 --> 01:04:43,505
Get some, some information in the system
so we know what we're doing for you.

1189
01:04:44,095 --> 01:04:47,785
And if you're not with us and your
next of kin has contacted us, be

1190
01:04:47,785 --> 01:04:49,025
assured we'll take care of you.

1191
01:04:50,295 --> 01:04:53,525
Catherine: Kieran and Kevin, I
can't thank you enough for being

1192
01:04:53,525 --> 01:04:55,145
guests on the podcast today.

1193
01:04:55,165 --> 01:04:57,175
I look forward to our next chat.

1194
01:04:58,200 --> 01:04:59,090
Kieran: Well, thank you, Catherine.

1195
01:04:59,090 --> 01:05:03,330
We really appreciate the opportunity to
talk to, to reach a bigger audience to

1196
01:05:03,330 --> 01:05:04,780
understand what it is we're providing.

1197
01:05:04,780 --> 01:05:05,900
So thank you very much.

1198
01:05:06,870 --> 01:05:07,160
Cheers.

1199
01:05:07,209 --> 01:05:07,720
Thank you.

1200
01:05:07,970 --> 01:05:08,470
Catherine: Wonderful.

1201
01:05:08,539 --> 01:05:09,430
Thank you so much.

1202
01:05:12,239 --> 01:05:15,679
We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,

1203
01:05:15,959 --> 01:05:17,479
brought to you by Critical Info.

1204
01:05:18,490 --> 01:05:22,750
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1205
01:05:22,750 --> 01:05:24,460
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1206
01:05:24,855 --> 01:05:28,435
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1207
01:05:28,435 --> 01:05:30,175
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1208
01:05:30,355 --> 01:05:34,475
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1209
01:05:34,485 --> 01:05:36,215
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1210
01:05:36,534 --> 01:05:37,885
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1211
01:05:38,045 --> 01:05:41,504
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1212
01:05:41,804 --> 01:05:43,395
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1213
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1214
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