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For me it was a compulsion.

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It was not a choice, this crossroads.

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It was, but I was not going to choose
the path of being bitter and twisted.

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I wanted to give Ben's death meaning as
a means of making sense of it for me,

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that his death, his death, Tremendous
suffering to die on your own, terrified... Read More

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For me it was a compulsion.

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00:00:03,470 --> 00:00:05,480
It was not a choice, this crossroads.

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00:00:05,810 --> 00:00:11,229
It was, but I was not going to choose
the path of being bitter and twisted.

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I wanted to give Ben's death meaning as
a means of making sense of it for me,

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00:00:16,660 --> 00:00:21,540
that his death, his death, Tremendous
suffering to die on your own, terrified

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of friends and family in the forest
because the mental health system is shit.

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It's not good enough.

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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a
podcast encouraging open conversations

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00:00:35,529 --> 00:00:37,940
about dying and the death of a loved one.

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00:00:38,490 --> 00:00:43,430
I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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00:00:43,430 --> 00:00:44,999
bring your stories of death to life.

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back to life.

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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations

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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.

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We pay our respects to their
elders, past, present and emerging.

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And extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Today, I'm speaking with Sarah Eagle.

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Sarah is a neurodivergent
public speaker and consultant.

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She supports companies to
create a culture of belonging.

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and neurodivergent people to
transition from chaos to joy.

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I had the pleasure of meeting Sarah
at a recent networking session.

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Thanks for being with us, Sarah.

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It's my absolute pleasure, Catherine.

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Thank you for inviting me along.

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Now, Sarah, we got chatting recently
and you told me about Your experience

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when your brother died, are you
comfortable to share that story?

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Yeah, I'm really
comfortable to share that.

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So my brother, Ben, he lived with
schizophrenia for many years.

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He was diagnosed as a teen and he
had a fair bit of support with it.

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He had a psychiatrist, uh, this
was in the eighties and nineties.

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So there wasn't internet to Google things.

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We didn't have support as
a family to understand.

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What schizophrenia was, it was just this.

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His behavior would become really
unusual a couple of times a year, like

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scarily, like we were scared for him.

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That was well managed there for a while,
like through most of the year he'd

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be okay, and usually around Christmas
he would become really unwell with

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hallucinations and really high levels
of paranoia, and he managed to hold

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down a full-time job as a gardener.

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And had a busy social life.

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Friends.

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Didn't ever really go near
drugs, that was never his thing.

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And then in 2000 he saved up
to travel on his own through

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Europe and he came back home.

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He was there for six weeks and
came back home really tired.

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Maybe from the jet lag and the travelling.

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And he was really, really ill.

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Um, well, again, and that was really
the beginning of the end for him.

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He was 29, I guess the schizophrenia at
that point had really overtaken his brain.

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And we really did try to get him
support, but again, back then

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there really wasn't much available.

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We couldn't access things as
readily as people can now.

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Information in particular, I
remember I took him to the.

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a psychiatric, like, emergency one day
because it was really frightening and

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I needed, we needed to get him help.

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And he was hallucinating the whole way.

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He could see lights, bright lights, and
these creatures were coming for him.

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And fortunately I could get him to the
hospital and the hospital didn't really

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treat him with much dignity or kindness.

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In our view, in the family's view, he
was gravely unwell, but the hospital.

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Just said it was up to me to decide,
do we want to admit him or not, making

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it really clear if he was admitted, he
would get much worse because he'd be

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around people who are more sick than him.

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I didn't know much about the mental
health landscape at that time.

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I didn't know much about stigma or how
much funding goes into mental health.

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And I kind of went with what the
experts were sort of saying that

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you're better off taking him home.

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So that's the option I chose.

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So I took Ben home and we had the
crisis assessment team come out

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to him a couple of times a day.

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But the issue with that was they
would send different people out.

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So when you're dealing with
somebody who's very paranoid.

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I could never establish
a rapport with him.

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So he became increasingly unwell
and we were reporting that back,

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but we weren't being listened to
because he was over the age of 18

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or so many other things happening.

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You know, they couldn't because
of the legislation, they can't.

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Take on board so much what family are
saying and they have to weigh it up in

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comparison to other people that they're
tending to But that triage system,

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so eventually we found he was running
across We were living in a pain highway

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in Moorabbin and he was running across
the main road there in during peak hour

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And he couldn't recognize us anymore.

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The schizophrenia really was, I don't
know if you know much about schizophrenia.

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It's when the senses are really
lying to the person so you could

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see things that aren't there.

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You can hear things that aren't
there, but the brain cannot

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tell whether it's real or not.

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So it's very real for the person.

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And so poor Ben was in
that really distressed.

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Space where there's not
one person in the world.

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Could he feel that love and connection
with, because his brain is absolutely

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overfiring and not functioning.

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He was running across
the freeway in peak hour.

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And we thought this is, if he gets
hit by a car that will destroy

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him and it will destroy the person
driving, we have to get him.

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Somewhere safe.

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And the hospital wouldn't take him.

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There was nowhere else to
take him that we knew of.

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And so we took him, or my dad
took him up to Tangelbren, which

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is up in Mount Bawble, Victoria.

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And dad built a house up
there when he was about 18.

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Dad's now 87.

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This little humble shack in the
rainforest, a beautiful place

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that we've spent a lot of time
as kids going up there a lot.

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And usually that would be a beautiful,
peaceful place that would calm Ben down.

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But unfortunately, within a couple of
days, he went running out into the bush.

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He went, I think maybe on the second
day, he ran out and he came back, but

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he was covered in leeches and cuts.

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And then he went out a second time.

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This was, I think, like a
Wednesday evening in summer.

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So January, 2001.

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And dad called me at three
o'clock in the morning.

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Ben's gone out and he hasn't come back.

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So I drove up thinking, oh,
Ben will be starving when he

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comes back in the morning.

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So I went to the 24 hour supermarket
and got heaps of leeches Food to cook

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up a feed for dad, his, Ben's best
friend, Yui, who was there and for Ben

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thinking, you know, they need some support
up there and we can not for a second

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did I think we'd never see Ben again.

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And I got up and the sun was just coming
up and the first police car was there.

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So dad had obviously called the
police to notify we've got an unwell

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man who's now out in the forest,
pulled up next to the police car.

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And I didn't think much of it.

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I just thought, this is a bit dramatic.

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Ben will be really embarrassed about this.

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I said, hey, went up, saw Dad and
Yui and cooked them breakfast.

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And then with the town, which
is tiny, it has one little shop.

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It only opens in winter.

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By about 11 in the morning,
there would have been two or

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300 people there searching.

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Or the search was starting.

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I think we had lots of SES walkers,
volunteers, walking groups, police.

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It became a little hub of searching.

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They had sniffer dogs and they'd
set out sand traps during the day.

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They knew that he was paranoid,
so he would have been hiding.

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So they put sand on the ground
so they could find footprints

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if he was moving around.

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And so, unfortunately, They
didn't have any luck finding him.

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They did find his tracksuit pants
with his medication early on.

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And then it was really a waiting game.

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You know, where every moment
you just don't know, it was

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like really living a nightmare.

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That every moment you don't know
whether they're going to find

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him, is he going to be okay?

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Or is he going to be
very sick, very wounded?

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Has he got an injury or
is he going to be dead?

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You're living in that state from one
moment, one second to the next, not

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knowing how is this going to play out.

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That must have been horrific.

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Yeah, it really was horrific.

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Kind of experience, I think,
leaves a scar that is so deep.

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It's so permanent, that panic,
that sense of deep helplessness

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00:09:05,944 --> 00:09:08,744
that I cannot resolve this.

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And how old were you, Sarah?

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I was 26 at the time.

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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And so you go through that with, you know,
the, all the police and the search crew,

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everybody initially is sort of, we'll be
right, we'll get there, we'll find Ben.

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And then over the days people, you
can see it, you can just see that it's

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summer, there's not much water, but
the police constantly evaluate how long

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might this person be able to survive
out there and under these conditions.

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So we always knew that there's a deadline
that they have to stop the search,

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looking for somebody who's alive.

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And then transition to look
for somebody who's passed away.

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The sound of that death
clock is so loud internally.

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The search party, the police, you can see
their demeanor change as that deadline

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in the truest sense of the word is
approaching and they can't look you in

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the eye because they personally, like it's
so, it's, it's devastating for everybody.

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People who are there searching
because they're out there in the

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forest, you know, hacking away.

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It was a really dense forest.

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Until, you know, they
can't look you in the eye.

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It's just too much for everybody.

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Hope is gone because there's
no way you could have survived

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after a certain amount of time.

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00:10:29,119 --> 00:10:35,579
Do you remember what time frame where
they came to you as the family and said,

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00:10:36,069 --> 00:10:38,619
This is no longer an active search.

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This is more a recovery.

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So they kind of, I guess, prepared
us for that from the get go.

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Okay.

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They were very transparent.

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00:10:47,710 --> 00:10:48,920
This is what we are doing.

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00:10:49,050 --> 00:10:54,580
And if we don't find him by this
time, we will need to change.

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00:10:54,580 --> 00:10:58,130
So there's the kind of, they
mentioned that a few times every day.

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And I think it was the Wednesday
evening that he went missing.

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00:11:02,109 --> 00:11:03,439
I actually have no idea.

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00:11:03,770 --> 00:11:07,900
And then I think it was the
19th of January, so he might've

191
00:11:07,900 --> 00:11:09,300
gone missing on the 15th.

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00:11:09,430 --> 00:11:14,220
And then on the 19th was the
day the police came and said.

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00:11:14,545 --> 00:11:15,865
that we're calling it now.

194
00:11:16,345 --> 00:11:18,085
So maybe it was four or five days.

195
00:11:18,105 --> 00:11:18,975
I can't remember.

196
00:11:19,455 --> 00:11:23,025
Cause I was out there on the
tracks calling out his name, really

197
00:11:23,025 --> 00:11:28,555
trying to call out that it's a
very distressing thing to do.

198
00:11:29,055 --> 00:11:33,944
But yeah, so it's, it is very confusing
for me to know how long that happened.

199
00:11:34,585 --> 00:11:38,745
But I remember the moment when the
police came in and said, this is it now.

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I've never felt it.

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00:11:40,995 --> 00:11:46,905
It's like my heart, if your heart
could physically break, the sensation,

202
00:11:47,365 --> 00:11:51,664
that was what hit me at that moment,
was my heart physically felt.

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00:11:51,665 --> 00:11:55,445
The pain was so unbearable,
I could not do this again.

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00:11:56,004 --> 00:12:00,984
And what happens when they say,
look, we haven't found him?

205
00:12:03,430 --> 00:12:06,829
So at the same time that they said
to us, we need to go on the news

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00:12:06,829 --> 00:12:08,139
in case he got knocked them out.

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00:12:08,209 --> 00:12:12,489
And so the photo, his photo went up
as well, but they were also searching

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00:12:12,489 --> 00:12:15,810
in key spots around Melbourne and
they were checking his bank accounts.

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00:12:15,829 --> 00:12:19,859
Was he deliberate, you know, a lot
of, I think it's 39, 40, 000 people

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00:12:19,879 --> 00:12:21,609
go missing in Australia every year.

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00:12:21,749 --> 00:12:22,849
And some of those people.

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00:12:23,430 --> 00:12:25,270
Oh, I choosing to go missing.

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I don't want to be found due to
family abuse or trauma or whatever.

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00:12:29,589 --> 00:12:32,739
And so they keep it, they check, you
know, has he been accessing anything

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00:12:33,540 --> 00:12:35,380
and he hadn't been from there.

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00:12:35,380 --> 00:12:35,980
They do.

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00:12:36,180 --> 00:12:40,889
I think they took a couple of days off,
but then they bring a different lot of

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00:12:40,890 --> 00:12:42,780
dogs that are looking for a cadaver.

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00:12:43,569 --> 00:12:47,759
So the search continues then looking for
remains for a week or so from memory.

220
00:12:48,259 --> 00:12:51,919
And then, then they call it
and say, no, this is not going

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00:12:51,939 --> 00:12:53,769
to be something we can't.

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00:12:55,270 --> 00:13:01,020
And so from that point, we had
a memorial for Ben, um, in March

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00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,970
rather than a funeral because
we didn't have his, his body.

224
00:13:07,670 --> 00:13:10,610
And where did you hold that memorial?

225
00:13:11,430 --> 00:13:17,780
That was in a church in
Bentley or Murrumbina.

226
00:13:18,190 --> 00:13:23,270
And is that what motivated you
to then go into the field of

227
00:13:23,470 --> 00:13:25,620
psychology or had you already?

228
00:13:25,810 --> 00:13:31,269
Well, I'd started psychology at
uni and loved it and then deferred.

229
00:13:31,779 --> 00:13:36,949
It was about three months after
Bennett died where I Felt very

230
00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:38,620
much that I was at a crossroads.

231
00:13:38,699 --> 00:13:41,300
I started to hear about
the mental health system.

232
00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,109
I started to hear things
like, why was he discharged?

233
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,759
I started to reflect on things
that the psychiatric nurses had

234
00:13:50,779 --> 00:13:53,580
told us, how Ben was treated.

235
00:13:54,660 --> 00:13:57,136
If he hadn't have been discharged,
would things be different?

236
00:13:57,136 --> 00:13:59,980
So I started asking why,
why is this happening?

237
00:14:00,140 --> 00:14:01,110
What's going on?

238
00:14:01,300 --> 00:14:03,580
And then I started, I
heard about SANE Australia.

239
00:14:04,079 --> 00:14:06,930
How did we not know about Saint Australia?

240
00:14:07,050 --> 00:14:07,969
This is not right.

241
00:14:07,979 --> 00:14:12,850
As a family with a loved one who's
been seriously unwell for many

242
00:14:12,860 --> 00:14:16,449
years, how did we not know that
there's a lot of support out there?

243
00:14:16,989 --> 00:14:22,220
I really remember feeling in
grief, shock, the trauma of it,

244
00:14:22,230 --> 00:14:24,654
feeling I have a choice here.

245
00:14:24,654 --> 00:14:26,643
I could see it very clearly.

246
00:14:26,643 --> 00:14:31,285
If I don't do anything, I will be
very bitter and twisted and angry.

247
00:14:31,285 --> 00:14:32,279
for having me.

248
00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,200
Or I can see this as a silver
platter because Ben's death was

249
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,130
just very strategic, very conscious.

250
00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:40,780
Ben's death was very public.

251
00:14:41,380 --> 00:14:46,470
So I could use that to educate and to let
people know there's support out there.

252
00:14:46,990 --> 00:14:49,100
So for me, it was a compulsion.

253
00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,260
It was not a choice, this crossroads.

254
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:52,389
It was.

255
00:14:52,869 --> 00:14:57,069
But I was not going to choose the
path of being bitter and twisted.

256
00:14:57,689 --> 00:15:02,750
I wanted to give Ben's death meaning as
a means of making sense of it for me.

257
00:15:02,750 --> 00:15:08,169
That his death is tremendous suffering
to die on your own, terrified of friends

258
00:15:08,169 --> 00:15:12,579
and family in the forest, because
the mental health system is shit.

259
00:15:13,105 --> 00:15:14,055
is not good enough.

260
00:15:14,375 --> 00:15:15,875
We need to increase the funding.

261
00:15:15,875 --> 00:15:18,285
We need to let people
know what's out there.

262
00:15:18,504 --> 00:15:24,984
And tell me, how did you get involved with
Sane Australia and what is Sane Australia?

263
00:15:25,415 --> 00:15:30,004
So before Ben died, I was living
over in Western Australia in Margaret

264
00:15:30,005 --> 00:15:37,285
River and he came to visit and I
had this old Commodore and jigs of

265
00:15:37,295 --> 00:15:38,755
hazards, the windows didn't work.

266
00:15:38,785 --> 00:15:40,115
So we had to jump through the windows.

267
00:15:40,725 --> 00:15:42,095
That's why it was the jigs of hazards.

268
00:15:42,814 --> 00:15:44,915
And so I took him on a little tour around,

269
00:15:45,285 --> 00:15:45,675
sorry.

270
00:15:45,675 --> 00:15:47,825
I just love the 80s reference.

271
00:15:52,574 --> 00:15:53,415
Wasn't that a great show?

272
00:15:54,335 --> 00:15:56,925
So I took him around cause I
lived in Margaret river and we

273
00:15:56,925 --> 00:15:58,675
traveled around for a few days.

274
00:15:58,755 --> 00:15:59,275
And.

275
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,130
There's a track called the Bibbulmun
track, which is a walking track that

276
00:16:04,130 --> 00:16:07,319
goes for a thousand kilometers from
north of Perth, all the way through

277
00:16:07,319 --> 00:16:09,310
the beautiful forest down to Albany.

278
00:16:09,820 --> 00:16:13,709
And after our time together, Ben
bought the guidebook for this

279
00:16:13,709 --> 00:16:17,170
walking track and said, we should do
this one day as a walking holiday.

280
00:16:17,970 --> 00:16:21,725
And so we planned to do it as a,
Lovely thing to do, but also we've

281
00:16:21,855 --> 00:16:23,875
raised money for some kids charity.

282
00:16:23,885 --> 00:16:27,905
I think it was at that three months
mark after, when I realized my life

283
00:16:27,944 --> 00:16:29,645
is going to go one of two ways here.

284
00:16:29,824 --> 00:16:33,084
I rang the kids charity that Ben and
I lined up and said, I'm not doing it.

285
00:16:33,364 --> 00:16:33,994
We're not doing it.

286
00:16:34,105 --> 00:16:34,855
My brother's dead.

287
00:16:34,965 --> 00:16:36,754
It was probably something
really blunt like that.

288
00:16:37,685 --> 00:16:40,484
Like I've got nothing in the tank,
not where we're canceling that.

289
00:16:40,944 --> 00:16:44,884
And then I contacted SANE and
said, I've just heard about this.

290
00:16:45,095 --> 00:16:48,025
You, and this is what's happened.

291
00:16:48,085 --> 00:16:50,355
It's not okay that we didn't
know that you were there.

292
00:16:50,865 --> 00:16:51,235
Yeah.

293
00:16:51,615 --> 00:16:55,725
And so Barbara Hocking was the
CEO of SANE Australia back then.

294
00:16:56,235 --> 00:16:57,225
Beautiful woman.

295
00:16:57,234 --> 00:16:58,655
She's since passed away.

296
00:16:59,195 --> 00:17:00,635
So SANE Australia is.

297
00:17:01,165 --> 00:17:05,555
a national body that provides a
lot of resources and supports for

298
00:17:05,555 --> 00:17:06,994
people with mental health issues.

299
00:17:07,035 --> 00:17:10,474
They're like, they're a
really fantastic organization.

300
00:17:10,564 --> 00:17:12,855
They've got a forum for
people at the moment.

301
00:17:13,234 --> 00:17:17,454
I'm not so involved with them now,
but they do things like if there's a

302
00:17:17,515 --> 00:17:22,594
computer game, that's derogatory around
any mental health issue, they will.

303
00:17:23,375 --> 00:17:26,494
Try and prevent that from entering
the country that they're really big on

304
00:17:26,954 --> 00:17:32,435
educating around stigmatizing language
and improving the mental health landscape.

305
00:17:32,795 --> 00:17:39,064
So SANE were really supportive of what
I wanted to do and helped me really.

306
00:17:39,495 --> 00:17:45,235
So a friend of mine designed some SANE
t shirts and we sold those and raised

307
00:17:45,235 --> 00:17:49,274
money to go to SANE to help their support
line because they also have a support

308
00:17:49,355 --> 00:17:51,225
number that people can call for help.

309
00:17:51,715 --> 00:17:53,965
Not emergency help, but for advice or.

310
00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:56,629
What resources are around in my area.

311
00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:02,240
And so I, yeah, I did the walk along the
Bibbulmun track with Ben's best friend

312
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:07,409
Yui, who was there when Ben disappeared
from the shack at Townsville Bren.

313
00:18:07,589 --> 00:18:11,260
And I did that 10 months after
Ben died, giving talks along the

314
00:18:11,260 --> 00:18:15,620
way to school groups and community
groups and raising money for SANE.

315
00:18:16,050 --> 00:18:20,820
And how long did that take and
what's the distance and the terrain?

316
00:18:21,045 --> 00:18:21,735
What's it like?

317
00:18:22,135 --> 00:18:27,074
Well, I have to say we were very lazy and
only did 600 kilometers of the thousand.

318
00:18:27,245 --> 00:18:28,324
Oh,

319
00:18:28,324 --> 00:18:29,705
that's still pretty sizable.

320
00:18:31,584 --> 00:18:33,205
That was my first overnight bushwalk.

321
00:18:34,024 --> 00:18:37,235
The terrain, it's beautiful,
beautiful terrain.

322
00:18:37,904 --> 00:18:42,534
They have these little huts that are built
along the way that are two or three sided

323
00:18:42,684 --> 00:18:44,914
and long drop toilets and tank water.

324
00:18:44,954 --> 00:18:47,604
So you've got to check, you know, you've
got to ring or you've got to find out,

325
00:18:47,745 --> 00:18:49,554
you know, is there water in the tanks?

326
00:18:49,864 --> 00:18:52,564
And some stretches, there was one
stretch that was 10 days with,

327
00:18:52,614 --> 00:18:56,315
we had to carry food and water,
probably not water, just food.

328
00:18:56,825 --> 00:19:00,365
And that, that area of Western
Australia is just stunning.

329
00:19:00,365 --> 00:19:00,795
That's it.

330
00:19:00,805 --> 00:19:03,445
You know, you could walk through
the valley of the giant trees

331
00:19:03,445 --> 00:19:07,735
and different, there's so many
different paths to feel peaceful.

332
00:19:07,744 --> 00:19:10,514
Didn't see anybody along the track.

333
00:19:11,025 --> 00:19:14,384
And I think the reason why it took six
weeks is because there was so many giving

334
00:19:14,384 --> 00:19:16,404
talks along the way to different groups.

335
00:19:16,935 --> 00:19:17,935
It could have been much quicker.

336
00:19:18,215 --> 00:19:24,594
And how was that experience of talking
to the different groups along the way?

337
00:19:24,895 --> 00:19:26,424
How were you received?

338
00:19:26,514 --> 00:19:32,644
I think it was, in hindsight, I
was still in shock and I remember

339
00:19:32,684 --> 00:19:36,704
people looking at me with a lot of
sympathy and I couldn't stand it.

340
00:19:37,225 --> 00:19:39,415
People had a lot of sorrow in their eyes.

341
00:19:39,899 --> 00:19:43,229
And so I needed to move
away from that part.

342
00:19:43,269 --> 00:19:49,129
So I actually found going into towns very
exhausting emotionally because I had to,

343
00:19:49,129 --> 00:19:52,870
I guess I had to pretend that I'm okay.

344
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:58,330
And were you aware that, or
had you been diagnosed as being

345
00:19:58,489 --> 00:20:00,690
neurodivergent at this stage?

346
00:20:00,990 --> 00:20:01,980
Not at all.

347
00:20:02,389 --> 00:20:04,310
No, I wasn't diagnosed.

348
00:20:04,310 --> 00:20:05,610
I was 26 then.

349
00:20:06,010 --> 00:20:09,979
I was diagnosed about four
years ago and I'm almost 50.

350
00:20:10,409 --> 00:20:14,020
But this, what I did in memory
of my brother was a big reason

351
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:15,690
that the psychiatrist said.

352
00:20:16,645 --> 00:20:17,535
This is autism.

353
00:20:18,045 --> 00:20:18,935
It's relentless.

354
00:20:18,935 --> 00:20:19,505
Why?

355
00:20:20,415 --> 00:20:21,475
Why did this happen?

356
00:20:22,185 --> 00:20:23,445
And I cannot stop.

357
00:20:23,445 --> 00:20:26,525
I have to keep going down
this rabbit warren of why?

358
00:20:26,555 --> 00:20:27,465
Why did that happen?

359
00:20:28,995 --> 00:20:31,294
And this compulsion, this social justice.

360
00:20:31,294 --> 00:20:33,034
I can't not do this.

361
00:20:33,475 --> 00:20:38,205
And that wasn't the only walk
that you did, was it, Sarah?

362
00:20:38,455 --> 00:20:39,655
No, no.

363
00:20:39,655 --> 00:20:43,985
So you walk down through the forest and
you get down to Albany on the beach.

364
00:20:44,515 --> 00:20:47,335
The sort of Southern area
of Western Australia.

365
00:20:47,955 --> 00:20:52,615
And I remember sitting on the beach almost
at the end thinking that was good, Ben,

366
00:20:52,935 --> 00:20:54,605
you know, chatting to Ben in my head.

367
00:20:55,485 --> 00:20:59,484
And, you know, I think we'd raised
about 10 grand and saying, I'd said

368
00:20:59,484 --> 00:21:01,135
that had an increase in phone calls.

369
00:21:01,145 --> 00:21:02,255
So that felt really good.

370
00:21:02,744 --> 00:21:03,875
So why don't we do.

371
00:21:04,909 --> 00:21:06,830
I'd be happy to do another one.

372
00:21:06,899 --> 00:21:12,439
And so that's when I promised Ben I would
do the Camino, which I then did maybe

373
00:21:12,439 --> 00:21:15,060
four or five years later in Ben's memory.

374
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,069
And can you explain where the
Camino is, what it connects?

375
00:21:19,955 --> 00:21:21,685
The terrain, the distance.

376
00:21:22,564 --> 00:21:24,845
So the Camino is an old pilgrimage.

377
00:21:24,845 --> 00:21:26,335
It's about a thousand years old.

378
00:21:26,395 --> 00:21:29,774
And it actually, there's lots of
branches of it through Europe.

379
00:21:29,855 --> 00:21:35,455
And most people know the part that goes
on the top part of Spain, almost along

380
00:21:35,455 --> 00:21:37,844
the coastline, but about 200 K inland.

381
00:21:38,254 --> 00:21:39,995
It's a beautiful walk.

382
00:21:40,235 --> 00:21:43,165
I ordered a guidebook
online and mistakenly bought

383
00:21:43,235 --> 00:21:44,915
the wrong one, as you do.

384
00:21:45,445 --> 00:21:50,634
And mine started in Lepuy, which
is about 800 kilometers before

385
00:21:50,635 --> 00:21:53,524
the traditional starting line
or the well known starting line.

386
00:21:55,050 --> 00:21:56,620
just before you get into Spain.

387
00:21:57,129 --> 00:22:00,750
Most people start in the French
side at the bottom of the Pyrenees

388
00:22:00,790 --> 00:22:04,330
and go up and over, but I started
800 kilometers before that part.

389
00:22:04,350 --> 00:22:07,290
So for me, it was about 1, 750 K.

390
00:22:08,249 --> 00:22:09,709
That's my second overnight walk.

391
00:22:10,129 --> 00:22:11,359
And I did this one solo.

392
00:22:11,739 --> 00:22:12,199
Yeah.

393
00:22:12,459 --> 00:22:14,580
How did you train for that?

394
00:22:15,415 --> 00:22:20,864
Well, I didn't really, I had a,
I had some sponsorships through

395
00:22:20,905 --> 00:22:26,374
Fernwood gym and other supports, but
I was very, very busy with media and

396
00:22:26,374 --> 00:22:28,754
with marketing and public speaking.

397
00:22:28,754 --> 00:22:33,274
I gave lots of school talks and
community talks raising, I mean, I'm

398
00:22:33,274 --> 00:22:37,895
about to go on this walk and you know,
there's lots of services available.

399
00:22:37,915 --> 00:22:41,165
There's, you know, the stigma is really
high and we need to address this.

400
00:22:41,254 --> 00:22:42,155
I was doing all of that.

401
00:22:42,155 --> 00:22:44,034
So I did not get to train.

402
00:22:44,745 --> 00:22:48,254
And I remember the very first wasn't
till I got on the plane, you know,

403
00:22:48,254 --> 00:22:51,835
when you're so busy before you go on a
holiday and then you get on the plane

404
00:22:51,835 --> 00:22:53,504
and you think, yep, now I can relax.

405
00:22:54,214 --> 00:23:00,334
I got on the plane to France and
thought, oh shit, what am I about to do?

406
00:23:00,335 --> 00:23:03,264
What have I signed up for?

407
00:23:03,744 --> 00:23:07,245
And so traveled all the way
down to La Puy, a little train.

408
00:23:07,255 --> 00:23:13,440
And I, the first That very first step,
you know, of course I've overpacked and

409
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,530
I've got about 500 kilos in my backpack.

410
00:23:16,540 --> 00:23:18,659
Of course, I always overpack.

411
00:23:18,660 --> 00:23:22,110
It was from, I think it was
28 kilos, which is stupid.

412
00:23:22,340 --> 00:23:26,840
And I was standing at this cathedral,
which is the, the first step, just

413
00:23:26,850 --> 00:23:33,120
thinking, this is, The first step of so
many, I will always remember that step.

414
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,340
Like I get, I, yeah, it's like
an emotional moment to think of

415
00:23:38,340 --> 00:23:40,309
that very first step of that walk.

416
00:23:40,620 --> 00:23:41,600
And how'd you go?

417
00:23:42,109 --> 00:23:45,180
It's interesting when I reflect on
the different walks that I've done.

418
00:23:45,180 --> 00:23:50,389
The first walk I spent a lot, my
mind was a lot in a fantasy world

419
00:23:50,389 --> 00:23:51,730
pretending I was somewhere else.

420
00:23:51,730 --> 00:23:52,870
I couldn't be in the moment.

421
00:23:53,185 --> 00:23:54,094
Cause it was too hard.

422
00:23:54,145 --> 00:23:54,755
Life was hard.

423
00:23:54,755 --> 00:23:55,945
The emotions were hard.

424
00:23:56,764 --> 00:24:01,155
The second walk, I had done some
meditation practice, mindfulness practice,

425
00:24:01,375 --> 00:24:03,784
Vipassana, practicing being in the moment.

426
00:24:04,304 --> 00:24:09,044
And this made the trip a lot better,
I think, because when you can practice

427
00:24:09,075 --> 00:24:12,944
being mindfully aware of what's happening,
there's more ease when you're doing

428
00:24:12,965 --> 00:24:14,925
something that's so long on your own.

429
00:24:16,125 --> 00:24:20,665
I think it's, it's kind of, if you compare
it, I think time is more gentle with you.

430
00:24:20,715 --> 00:24:26,745
If you can lean into facing it rather
than distraction and avoiding it.

431
00:24:27,234 --> 00:24:28,155
That's my theory.

432
00:24:28,725 --> 00:24:30,975
I learned a lot in the second walk.

433
00:24:31,134 --> 00:24:35,254
I had some really pivotal moments, which
I've talked about, and there's a created

434
00:24:35,254 --> 00:24:37,515
little music thing, which I'll share.

435
00:24:37,675 --> 00:24:38,295
I don't know if you've seen it.

436
00:24:38,305 --> 00:24:41,195
Sarah's mantra in memory of Ben.

437
00:24:41,405 --> 00:24:43,115
These were words that I came up with.

438
00:24:43,115 --> 00:24:43,205
Yeah.

439
00:24:45,034 --> 00:24:45,674
Yeah.

440
00:24:45,915 --> 00:24:50,294
So I came up with that actually at
Fernwood gym, listening to that music.

441
00:24:50,524 --> 00:24:54,924
And that was about a month before
thinking, Oh my gosh, I've got to do this.

442
00:24:54,955 --> 00:24:56,154
And I'm really frightened.

443
00:24:56,634 --> 00:24:58,254
And those words came to me then.

444
00:24:58,284 --> 00:25:00,074
And I used those words.

445
00:25:00,715 --> 00:25:05,895
In every public talk that I gave in the
lead up to that trip with that music, I

446
00:25:05,895 --> 00:25:10,465
explained to people that this is not just
for Ben, it's for every person who's died

447
00:25:10,525 --> 00:25:12,755
from mental health issues or suicide.

448
00:25:12,755 --> 00:25:16,814
It's for all of us that have suffered
as family, friends, and loved ones.

449
00:25:16,945 --> 00:25:20,234
I'm going to go off on my own,
but I want you all to be with me.

450
00:25:20,234 --> 00:25:25,115
So people, I'd play that music and
have the words on the screen and people

451
00:25:25,115 --> 00:25:30,180
would be really reflecting on their own
loved ones and, and, You can see tears.

452
00:25:30,910 --> 00:25:34,370
And so when I was on that walk, I would
listen to that music all the time.

453
00:25:34,370 --> 00:25:39,250
And sometimes the same over and over and
over, especially during dark times when I

454
00:25:39,250 --> 00:25:42,450
felt really flat and really overwhelmed.

455
00:25:43,629 --> 00:25:49,249
You had so much weight on your shoulders
and I'm not talking about the backpack.

456
00:25:50,325 --> 00:25:53,245
And this is the really interesting part.

457
00:25:53,284 --> 00:25:56,455
This is probably the most
profound moment of that walk.

458
00:25:57,135 --> 00:26:03,035
So in the Camino, about 200k before you
get to the end, there's this huge cast

459
00:26:03,035 --> 00:26:06,634
iron cross and pilgrims put pebbles.

460
00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:08,290
On the bottom.

461
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:13,070
And so you carry your burden for
the walk and then you place them

462
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:14,690
like a ritual at the bottom.

463
00:26:15,500 --> 00:26:19,969
And I carried some stones with the
words that I'd written as part of that

464
00:26:19,970 --> 00:26:25,890
mantra in this funny little glad bag
in my bra that was really tattered

465
00:26:26,049 --> 00:26:28,160
because, you know, sweaty and gross.

466
00:26:28,910 --> 00:26:29,840
And yeah.

467
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:30,296
And then

468
00:26:30,296 --> 00:26:30,969
you stretch.

469
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,720
I've still got the tatty
little thing and the prayer.

470
00:26:38,580 --> 00:26:44,459
And I had a pebble for Ben and a pebble
for mum and dad and my sister for

471
00:26:44,459 --> 00:26:48,670
me, but for all people who have died
from mental health issues and all who

472
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,679
will, you know, I was really carrying.

473
00:26:52,335 --> 00:26:55,865
And I knew which one was which and
I still, I can feel that, that,

474
00:26:56,015 --> 00:26:57,664
that is exactly how I walked this.

475
00:26:57,665 --> 00:27:01,735
This is exactly the intention
that this is for everybody and

476
00:27:01,735 --> 00:27:03,275
to give Ben's death meaning.

477
00:27:03,795 --> 00:27:07,595
These pebbles I knew I was carrying
from Australia to leave at the base of

478
00:27:07,595 --> 00:27:11,455
that cross, and I'm not I was raised
Catholic, but I wouldn't say I'm a

479
00:27:11,455 --> 00:27:13,085
practicing Catholic by any means.

480
00:27:13,585 --> 00:27:16,705
And so every now and then I'd do a mindful
check, you know, that cross is coming up.

481
00:27:16,725 --> 00:27:17,455
How do I feel?

482
00:27:17,635 --> 00:27:18,684
Oh, you know, whatever.

483
00:27:18,695 --> 00:27:20,295
I'll just chuck them there and keep going.

484
00:27:20,295 --> 00:27:27,635
And, but the day that I got to the base of
that cross, wow, I can feel that now, as I

485
00:27:27,675 --> 00:27:30,135
talk to you, it's, I took my backpack off.

486
00:27:30,790 --> 00:27:34,360
And I took my, the pebbles out of
my bra and out of the little crappy

487
00:27:34,420 --> 00:27:38,160
blad bag that's really tatted by
now and the little mantra thing.

488
00:27:38,940 --> 00:27:43,700
And I held the pebbles and I didn't
want to let them go, Catherine.

489
00:27:43,749 --> 00:27:49,790
I can't leave all of these people out
under the stars, under the elements.

490
00:27:49,790 --> 00:27:51,100
I can't, can't do it.

491
00:27:51,150 --> 00:27:52,000
But I walked up.

492
00:27:52,020 --> 00:27:54,830
It's a huge mound of pebbles
that other pilgrims have left.

493
00:27:54,830 --> 00:27:56,000
You've got to walk right up it.

494
00:27:56,010 --> 00:27:56,690
It's amazing.

495
00:27:57,110 --> 00:27:59,690
Apparently they moved them on
because they get so many people.

496
00:28:00,150 --> 00:28:00,970
walking through.

497
00:28:01,380 --> 00:28:05,110
So I got to the base of the
cross and I was really, really

498
00:28:05,110 --> 00:28:06,270
didn't want to let them go.

499
00:28:06,770 --> 00:28:11,520
And I sort of dug a little hole into
the pebbles, like to sort of create a

500
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,419
little cave, a little safe haven for
all of these things that I've been,

501
00:28:15,509 --> 00:28:16,699
all these people I've been carrying.

502
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,620
And I gently, it took me,
took me ages to let it go.

503
00:28:20,970 --> 00:28:26,149
Gently put them down and then covered
them up and finally walked down the mound.

504
00:28:26,980 --> 00:28:34,275
Suddenly, At the bottom of that
mound, I felt absolute rage.

505
00:28:34,825 --> 00:28:40,534
I really felt like throwing myself down
on the ground and hitting the earth.

506
00:28:41,044 --> 00:28:48,185
I felt, and I didn't do it, I felt like
screaming, I'm doing everything I can.

507
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,270
It is your turn.

508
00:28:50,770 --> 00:28:53,150
This was so full on.

509
00:28:53,930 --> 00:28:56,020
And then I sobbed.

510
00:28:57,450 --> 00:29:02,910
I absolutely sobbed because
as you mentioned, you were

511
00:29:02,919 --> 00:29:05,290
carrying such a heavy load.

512
00:29:06,180 --> 00:29:08,300
I had this sudden awareness.

513
00:29:08,675 --> 00:29:16,784
of exactly that, that I had been carrying
something that was not mine to carry.

514
00:29:17,284 --> 00:29:22,804
It was absolutely a profound
moment of release and relief.

515
00:29:23,264 --> 00:29:26,385
There was a lot of, it was humility too.

516
00:29:26,534 --> 00:29:29,005
I think I'm feeling teary now.

517
00:29:29,005 --> 00:29:33,215
I'm happy to feel teary, but that
it was such a strong realization

518
00:29:33,745 --> 00:29:35,685
and such a powerful healing moment.

519
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,679
Extremely emotional.

520
00:29:40,340 --> 00:29:46,409
And when you said, you know, it's now
your turn, who were you referring to?

521
00:29:46,899 --> 00:29:49,570
Yeah, I think it was probably
more the universe at large,

522
00:29:49,570 --> 00:29:51,179
something much bigger than me.

523
00:29:51,409 --> 00:29:52,229
And did you?

524
00:29:52,940 --> 00:29:54,740
do another walk after that.

525
00:29:55,130 --> 00:30:00,120
So that, that really taught me, I
think that level of insight of what I'd

526
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,119
been doing really helped me understand
this has to be a community effort.

527
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:07,470
This is not about one person.

528
00:30:07,470 --> 00:30:08,839
It's got to be a collective.

529
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:14,060
And so that helped really change my
focus then to make it a collective,

530
00:30:14,060 --> 00:30:16,430
to make it more of a community focus.

531
00:30:16,930 --> 00:30:18,850
And so that's what shaped the next walk.

532
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,680
I didn't know at that point I was going to
do another walk, but I got to the end of.

533
00:30:24,185 --> 00:30:28,175
That walk in Spain on the beach and
in the place where I was staying where

534
00:30:28,175 --> 00:30:31,575
the walkers stay They always had a
little guest book that people would

535
00:30:31,575 --> 00:30:37,224
write in and somebody just before me
had said if you love this Go to the 88

536
00:30:37,275 --> 00:30:43,214
temples in Japan and I thought well,
here we go Ben That's the sign and so

537
00:30:43,225 --> 00:30:49,340
I said to Ben we're gonna do that So
from that point, oh my goodness Yeah.

538
00:30:49,420 --> 00:30:49,930
And did you?

539
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:51,640
Yes, I did.

540
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:52,440
88 temples.

541
00:30:53,140 --> 00:30:53,300
In

542
00:30:53,300 --> 00:30:53,820
Japan?

543
00:30:53,870 --> 00:30:54,490
In Japan.

544
00:30:54,510 --> 00:30:55,120
Yes.

545
00:30:55,230 --> 00:30:59,970
And when you say this was more of a
collective, how was this one different?

546
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,983
So from there, I created in the
first walk, was it the first walk

547
00:31:03,983 --> 00:31:06,249
or the second walk, walking feet.

548
00:31:07,100 --> 00:31:11,200
F E A T and that was like a little
newsletter that I sent out to people.

549
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,260
I, you know, I'm over here and I'm
doing this and then Walking Feet

550
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,220
then morphed into a community of
people who were passionate about

551
00:31:20,470 --> 00:31:21,999
changing the mental health landscape.

552
00:31:22,525 --> 00:31:25,765
I mean, I put a call out, I need
some volunteers for an event and I

553
00:31:25,765 --> 00:31:28,455
would have 70 people within 24 hours.

554
00:31:28,475 --> 00:31:32,965
And I, I really got to understand
that walking feet became a bit of a

555
00:31:32,965 --> 00:31:35,315
vehicle for people to be passionate.

556
00:31:36,115 --> 00:31:39,195
That, you know, there's so many
people with mental health issues.

557
00:31:39,535 --> 00:31:42,925
There's so many of us dissatisfied
with the mental health landscape,

558
00:31:42,925 --> 00:31:44,545
the lack of funding and the stigma.

559
00:31:45,245 --> 00:31:48,845
That walking feet became a
little mini vehicle for people

560
00:31:48,845 --> 00:31:50,215
to get behind and support.

561
00:31:50,795 --> 00:31:55,825
I now understand, having been diagnosed
autistic and ADHD, why walking feet

562
00:31:56,125 --> 00:31:58,205
couldn't get to where I wanted it to be.

563
00:31:58,835 --> 00:32:02,295
Because there's certain parts of my
brain that just can't do certain things.

564
00:32:02,664 --> 00:32:06,565
And so, I no longer carry the shame
of that, but that really inhibited

565
00:32:06,574 --> 00:32:10,714
the success of walking feet as
a community focussed activity.

566
00:32:10,715 --> 00:32:17,965
It was incredible because part of that,
I also walked, and this is where the

567
00:32:17,965 --> 00:32:21,975
autism ADHD diagnosis makes so much
sense to me because when I finished

568
00:32:21,975 --> 00:32:26,115
the Japan walk, I then walked Armidale,
New South Wales down to Melbourne.

569
00:32:26,305 --> 00:32:29,035
And that was about, I
know it's ridiculous.

570
00:32:29,055 --> 00:32:31,045
It is absolutely ridiculous.

571
00:32:31,295 --> 00:32:31,915
It's over the top.

572
00:32:32,235 --> 00:32:32,475
So,

573
00:32:34,915 --> 00:32:39,545
and that was again, the people that
I met on this, it's just phenomenal

574
00:32:39,574 --> 00:32:46,625
that so many people who are affected
by mental health issues, it's so many

575
00:32:46,625 --> 00:32:52,935
stories, so much suffering, and at the
same time, I was trying to do a PhD.

576
00:32:53,285 --> 00:32:54,795
Which is so ADHD.

577
00:32:54,795 --> 00:32:59,505
If I can jump back a bit with the Camino
walk, another, the two main things I

578
00:32:59,505 --> 00:33:03,075
walked away that it has to be a community
thing, because there's so many people in

579
00:33:03,345 --> 00:33:05,105
affected by this and I can't change it.

580
00:33:05,385 --> 00:33:09,585
It's got to be collective and I
needed to increase my credibility.

581
00:33:09,604 --> 00:33:13,004
So I decided to do a bachelor of
psychology with honors to give

582
00:33:13,015 --> 00:33:17,225
me a much louder presence of
voice and understanding as well.

583
00:33:17,315 --> 00:33:19,945
And then that led on to a PhD.

584
00:33:20,425 --> 00:33:23,685
Which I didn't ever complete for
several reasons, but I was trying to

585
00:33:23,695 --> 00:33:28,255
do that whilst in Japan and walking
and trying to manage this big group

586
00:33:28,255 --> 00:33:31,795
of volunteers and, which I don't
think I did very well in hindsight.

587
00:33:31,795 --> 00:33:36,274
I did my best, but you know,
got to learn somewhere, somehow.

588
00:33:36,845 --> 00:33:39,685
But the PhD was an interesting
experience because I could

589
00:33:39,685 --> 00:33:41,005
have done anything I wanted.

590
00:33:41,595 --> 00:33:46,045
And I found that really overwhelming
being, I need actually clear guidelines.

591
00:33:46,075 --> 00:33:48,645
So that's doesn't work for my
brain, but I didn't know that

592
00:33:48,655 --> 00:33:51,885
then, but I started reading the
research around mental illness.

593
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,030
And it was so depressing.

594
00:33:54,210 --> 00:33:57,660
After three months of reading the
latest research, it was all about

595
00:33:57,670 --> 00:34:02,440
deficit risk and loss and the suffering
and people have short lifespan.

596
00:34:02,459 --> 00:34:07,650
And really I would be crying that
there's just so much suffering in here.

597
00:34:07,930 --> 00:34:11,970
I can't do a PhD if I'm going
to be this distressed doing it.

598
00:34:12,660 --> 00:34:14,320
And so I decided to flip it around.

599
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,920
Well, how can mental illness
enrich people's lives?

600
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,265
So I started looking at, you know,
Where's the research on that?

601
00:34:20,725 --> 00:34:26,875
And, you know, there's thousands of
research papers on how bad mental illness

602
00:34:26,875 --> 00:34:31,904
is, but I think I found maybe 11 that
looks at could you gain things from

603
00:34:31,904 --> 00:34:34,265
having the experience of a mental illness?

604
00:34:34,934 --> 00:34:36,555
So I found that really interesting.

605
00:34:37,125 --> 00:34:43,330
Why are we not looking at This other side,
and I'm convinced if we took the spotlight

606
00:34:43,350 --> 00:34:48,830
off all the horrible things, and we put
that spotlight on the amazing things,

607
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,169
that this would help reduce stigma.

608
00:34:51,650 --> 00:34:56,040
It's our fixation on all the
hardness, all the suffering.

609
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:03,630
And at what point in time, Sarah, did
you become comfortable in your own skin?

610
00:35:04,340 --> 00:35:12,279
Because for me, I was surprised to hear
about the trauma of your background.

611
00:35:13,070 --> 00:35:18,880
Because when I hear you speak, and
when you've told me your story,

612
00:35:19,390 --> 00:35:26,540
I find someone who has very clear
perspective in you no longer are.

613
00:35:27,145 --> 00:35:32,445
Feeling shame or guilt, you know,
you don't seem to carry that at what

614
00:35:32,455 --> 00:35:36,735
point in time or do you now feel that.

615
00:35:37,290 --> 00:35:39,910
You're okay with where you're at.

616
00:35:40,690 --> 00:35:44,260
I think it was the diagnosis
of autism and ADHD.

617
00:35:44,740 --> 00:35:46,800
It was like putting on
a cloak of compassion.

618
00:35:47,750 --> 00:35:49,919
I could finally understand.

619
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,489
It's not that I don't belong.

620
00:35:52,770 --> 00:35:54,850
It's not that I don't fit in.

621
00:35:55,130 --> 00:35:58,190
It's actually the architecture
of my brain is okay.

622
00:35:58,709 --> 00:35:59,860
It's not my fault.

623
00:36:00,395 --> 00:36:04,565
That's been a process and there's
times I still feel shame, but I can

624
00:36:04,565 --> 00:36:07,965
talk about, I'm feeling a lot of
shame right now and that's okay.

625
00:36:08,455 --> 00:36:14,355
And sometimes I do get hooked into it, but
I get out of it so much more easily now.

626
00:36:14,864 --> 00:36:15,614
Absolutely.

627
00:36:15,614 --> 00:36:21,175
I think understanding and learning about
my own brain and its limitations and its

628
00:36:21,205 --> 00:36:24,455
strengths has been the best thing for me.

629
00:36:24,940 --> 00:36:32,040
And it seems that you've recognised
what your strengths are and

630
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:33,720
then where you'd need support.

631
00:36:34,299 --> 00:36:38,759
And so you've actively sought,
I think you've got a business

632
00:36:38,759 --> 00:36:42,260
manager and a PA to assist you?

633
00:36:42,610 --> 00:36:46,080
Yeah, so I have really
crap executive functioning.

634
00:36:46,365 --> 00:36:48,305
Really bad, really, really bad.

635
00:36:48,575 --> 00:36:53,635
And it's an interesting mix of ADHD
and autism in that, you know, I've got

636
00:36:53,635 --> 00:36:59,045
really great ideas, very much a big
picture person, but following through

637
00:36:59,045 --> 00:37:01,715
finishing anything is really problematic.

638
00:37:01,715 --> 00:37:05,994
So I've purposely built my
business to support my brain.

639
00:37:05,995 --> 00:37:11,465
So I run regular coworking sessions
for my clients because I need that too.

640
00:37:11,495 --> 00:37:13,215
And I'm very transparent about that.

641
00:37:13,595 --> 00:37:17,215
I also think it's good to normalize.

642
00:37:17,845 --> 00:37:20,275
But it, you know, it's okay
that we need these things.

643
00:37:20,305 --> 00:37:23,815
Let's shine a spotlight on the shame
because the more we can say, yeah,

644
00:37:23,815 --> 00:37:28,794
I feel ashamed about this and we can
all relate, then the shame dissipates.

645
00:37:28,815 --> 00:37:30,255
So we feel, we feel better.

646
00:37:30,855 --> 00:37:36,735
So yeah, I set things up to support
me and I have, yes, a person who helps

647
00:37:36,735 --> 00:37:39,415
me keep on track and keep focused.

648
00:37:39,905 --> 00:37:43,405
I don't envy her because that
would be a very, very hard role.

649
00:37:43,855 --> 00:37:45,085
And a VA that helps.

650
00:37:46,015 --> 00:37:46,565
As well.

651
00:37:47,015 --> 00:37:49,085
There's still a lot of
things I need to learn.

652
00:37:49,085 --> 00:37:52,645
There's still things I'm identifying
where I need extra support.

653
00:37:53,115 --> 00:37:54,435
There's so much to learn.

654
00:37:54,935 --> 00:37:58,985
I think probably one of the
strengths through diagnosis is when

655
00:37:59,165 --> 00:38:02,715
I notice that there's an issue in
my business, I get the help that I

656
00:38:02,715 --> 00:38:04,965
need rather than feel shame about it.

657
00:38:04,965 --> 00:38:06,484
It's a lot more pragmatic.

658
00:38:06,524 --> 00:38:07,654
Let's just, ah, right.

659
00:38:07,884 --> 00:38:09,004
I'm really crap at that.

660
00:38:09,454 --> 00:38:10,815
Who can I get to help me with it?

661
00:38:11,125 --> 00:38:11,465
Yeah.

662
00:38:11,465 --> 00:38:11,905
Great.

663
00:38:12,125 --> 00:38:14,959
And tell me, since you've been diagnosed.

664
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:22,830
When you reflect back on your grief
and the walking, the finishing of one

665
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:28,899
walk, moving on to another walk, at what
point in time did you become settled

666
00:38:28,910 --> 00:38:31,369
where you didn't have to keep walking?

667
00:38:31,789 --> 00:38:34,620
You know, I think a big shift happened.

668
00:38:34,650 --> 00:38:40,549
And again, it would be my focus
of attention went from all of

669
00:38:40,549 --> 00:38:42,129
the suffering that's out there.

670
00:38:42,455 --> 00:38:46,925
And I really feel this compelled
to help alleviate the suffering out

671
00:38:46,925 --> 00:38:51,095
there and then realizing actually
I've got a lot of suffering in here.

672
00:38:51,595 --> 00:38:53,445
That's where I need to put my attention.

673
00:38:53,495 --> 00:38:55,455
And that was around the time of diagnosis.

674
00:38:55,974 --> 00:38:57,495
Somebody who's diagnosed late.

675
00:38:57,535 --> 00:39:02,305
I'm not sure if you're familiar with the
common pathway to diagnosis is the shits

676
00:39:02,375 --> 00:39:04,345
usually hit the fan in somebody's life.

677
00:39:04,345 --> 00:39:05,665
And that certainly was the case.

678
00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:10,540
For me that it was, everything was
overwhelming sensory processing

679
00:39:10,690 --> 00:39:13,850
disorder birds out very distressed.

680
00:39:14,470 --> 00:39:14,760
Yeah.

681
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:21,099
I really had to shift my attention
and connect with, okay, yes, there is

682
00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:25,680
suffering out there and there's suffering
in here and I can't do anything out there.

683
00:39:26,019 --> 00:39:27,850
If I haven't tended to what's in here.

684
00:39:29,060 --> 00:39:32,030
And I think this is where I'm at
now through joy diving is that

685
00:39:32,220 --> 00:39:34,730
it's a blend of tending to me.

686
00:39:35,295 --> 00:39:41,755
With my clients who I see very much I'm
walking alongside with and offering what

687
00:39:41,755 --> 00:39:45,185
I can for them, if that makes sense.

688
00:39:45,185 --> 00:39:47,255
Rather than giving everything outwards.

689
00:39:47,765 --> 00:39:51,635
And can you talk a little bit
about that process, about how

690
00:39:51,635 --> 00:39:53,885
you ga engage with your clients?

691
00:39:54,365 --> 00:39:56,135
What do you take them through?

692
00:39:56,785 --> 00:39:59,755
I like that you talk
about walking alongside.

693
00:40:00,325 --> 00:40:02,215
Can you just explain what that involves?

694
00:40:02,865 --> 00:40:03,285
Yeah.

695
00:40:03,285 --> 00:40:05,685
It's the most, I, I absolutely adore.

696
00:40:06,205 --> 00:40:11,795
What I do, I, so most, cause I can really
relate, I've got the career experience

697
00:40:11,855 --> 00:40:16,545
I've worked as a forensic clinician
with behaviors of concern and supporting

698
00:40:16,545 --> 00:40:20,935
people, helping somebody to find the
motivation to make positive change, but,

699
00:40:20,955 --> 00:40:23,015
and I've also got the lived experience.

700
00:40:23,125 --> 00:40:28,945
And so when I meet with a new client,
I explained to them, I'm kind of

701
00:40:28,965 --> 00:40:30,955
like a tour guide of your brain.

702
00:40:31,860 --> 00:40:35,490
I'm not the expert of your
brain, but I bring with me

703
00:40:35,660 --> 00:40:37,230
expertise that you may not have.

704
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,310
And that's partly from my own
lived experience and partly

705
00:40:40,310 --> 00:40:42,070
from my career and my education.

706
00:40:42,570 --> 00:40:45,280
And so we, it's very much a collaboration.

707
00:40:46,069 --> 00:40:50,649
And if I was to work with you, I'd say
we'd get, I would ask you some questions.

708
00:40:50,649 --> 00:40:51,800
How are things working?

709
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,020
What are your obstacles?

710
00:40:53,050 --> 00:40:54,230
What are your challenges?

711
00:40:55,050 --> 00:40:59,550
And I would give you a hypothesis and say,
this is what I'm thinking is happening.

712
00:41:00,190 --> 00:41:01,270
How does that land for you?

713
00:41:01,270 --> 00:41:02,270
And we'd work together.

714
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:03,800
Am I on the money with that?

715
00:41:04,170 --> 00:41:07,270
And then we come up with experiments
and say, do you want to try this

716
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,999
for the next week and report back
to me and see how you go with that?

717
00:41:10,510 --> 00:41:14,660
And people come to me usually
in a state of distress.

718
00:41:15,550 --> 00:41:18,940
They're just about to be diagnosed or
they've just been diagnosed or maybe

719
00:41:18,940 --> 00:41:26,150
in the last 12 months and it's such a
beautiful process to see them develop self

720
00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:32,959
literacy of their own brain because it's
not about an autistic brain does this.

721
00:41:33,665 --> 00:41:36,575
It's about how does your brain operate?

722
00:41:36,595 --> 00:41:38,115
How are you getting dopamine?

723
00:41:38,115 --> 00:41:40,545
What are the signs of
low dopamine for you?

724
00:41:41,205 --> 00:41:43,905
How does your brain's
process sound and light?

725
00:41:44,075 --> 00:41:48,995
And what could you try to protect and
preserve your energy based on your brain?

726
00:41:49,474 --> 00:41:53,945
So people come back to me with, You can
see their confidence building, they're

727
00:41:53,975 --> 00:41:58,565
connecting with themselves and their,
their brain, not through the lens

728
00:41:58,565 --> 00:42:00,755
of this is what an expert's told me.

729
00:42:00,975 --> 00:42:03,284
This is what I'm discovering
about my own brain.

730
00:42:03,785 --> 00:42:04,975
It's amazing.

731
00:42:05,325 --> 00:42:08,065
And tell me, what's the future?

732
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:10,400
So joy diving,

733
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,690
Oh, Catherine could be
anything at this stage.

734
00:42:15,310 --> 00:42:16,740
So joy diving is,

735
00:42:18,900 --> 00:42:24,130
I have really big plans, really big
plans because my number one goal is

736
00:42:24,130 --> 00:42:28,899
to alleviate suffering as far and
as wide as I possibly can in a way

737
00:42:28,899 --> 00:42:30,519
that's really sustainable for me.

738
00:42:30,609 --> 00:42:33,759
And I mean, financially,
mentally, energy, everything.

739
00:42:34,310 --> 00:42:36,940
So the one on one
consultation is a really.

740
00:42:37,140 --> 00:42:42,370
Big part, but I'm just starting to move
into corporate working with employees

741
00:42:42,370 --> 00:42:45,929
that are about to get fired, or they're
struggling because of their neuro

742
00:42:45,969 --> 00:42:49,080
divergent brain, there's a mismatch
between management and the client.

743
00:42:49,660 --> 00:42:52,879
And that's really great because
I can, it's about upskilling

744
00:42:52,879 --> 00:42:54,719
and educating all parties there.

745
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:58,240
And it's not about blaming you can
get so much out of this employee.

746
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:03,680
We've just got to make a few tweaks, you
know, and support the employee as well.

747
00:43:04,070 --> 00:43:07,200
There's also some courses that
I'm creating at the moment.

748
00:43:07,530 --> 00:43:10,600
that I'm really hoping will help people.

749
00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:15,090
It's also the polyvagal, creating
a polyvagal tool to support

750
00:43:15,090 --> 00:43:19,260
clinicians and people to map
out their own nervous system.

751
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:20,560
Polyvagal?

752
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:22,140
Could you explain that?

753
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:28,330
Polyvagal theory was created by
Stephen Porges, I'm not sure if I'm

754
00:43:28,330 --> 00:43:32,310
pronouncing his surname correctly,
and it's based on the nervous system.

755
00:43:32,570 --> 00:43:36,700
You might have heard of fight,
flight, fear, Those responses.

756
00:43:36,710 --> 00:43:39,970
So it's a lovely framework and
it's theoretical, but I really

757
00:43:39,970 --> 00:43:43,910
love how it explains the different
states of the nervous system and

758
00:43:43,910 --> 00:43:45,810
how to transition safely between.

759
00:43:45,810 --> 00:43:49,829
And we can really learn when I'm in
fight, flight, fear or fawn, or if

760
00:43:49,829 --> 00:43:53,899
I'm dissociated or if I'm feeling
safe and connected with others.

761
00:43:54,540 --> 00:43:58,170
It's just a lovely language and
neurodivergent brains have a

762
00:43:58,170 --> 00:44:01,650
much larger amygdala, which is
the emotion center of the brain.

763
00:44:02,060 --> 00:44:04,180
And so our nervous system
is like, that should be.

764
00:44:05,030 --> 00:44:10,070
Well, I'm truly overactive, especially by
late diagnosis, navigating a neurotypical

765
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,530
world for so long without realizing the
supports that we need to get through life.

766
00:44:15,050 --> 00:44:15,300
Yeah.

767
00:44:15,330 --> 00:44:18,470
So it's a beautiful framework to
help give us a language around

768
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:20,020
identifying what's happening for us.

769
00:44:20,710 --> 00:44:24,680
And you're working on a
model that people can use.

770
00:44:25,230 --> 00:44:25,880
Yes.

771
00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:30,220
It's a really great model that I've
been trialing because I think a big

772
00:44:30,220 --> 00:44:35,069
thing in learning about our own brains
is connection with somebody else, like

773
00:44:35,109 --> 00:44:39,119
doing this with somebody else and getting
feedback and encouragement rather than

774
00:44:39,130 --> 00:44:40,589
just going off and doing your own thing.

775
00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:41,310
course.

776
00:44:42,410 --> 00:44:47,780
So what we're developing at the moment is
a two way system where somebody can track

777
00:44:47,820 --> 00:44:51,760
where they are at and learn the signs
and symptoms of where they are at within

778
00:44:51,790 --> 00:44:57,060
polyvagal theory on the ladder of where
is their nervous system with tailored

779
00:44:57,140 --> 00:45:01,310
tools to help them support their nervous
system and gain a sense of safety if

780
00:45:01,310 --> 00:45:02,800
that's what they're missing at that time.

781
00:45:03,270 --> 00:45:06,920
So if you were my client and you would
have access to this, you could fill

782
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:11,275
out your own data and we could make
weekly and And look at what's happening

783
00:45:11,275 --> 00:45:14,935
for you over the week and then apply
different strategies and tools that

784
00:45:14,935 --> 00:45:17,765
are perfect purpose fit for you.

785
00:45:18,025 --> 00:45:24,005
And from memory with what you've said
previously to me outside of this interview

786
00:45:24,424 --> 00:45:30,325
was you've seen the difference when
someone who's a client and then the

787
00:45:30,335 --> 00:45:36,345
partner of the client and you can see,
do you want to explain a little bit

788
00:45:36,345 --> 00:45:39,175
about that within the realm that you can.

789
00:45:39,620 --> 00:45:40,530
Yeah, yeah.

790
00:45:40,530 --> 00:45:46,960
So I have clients who have, who've
been late diagnosed autism or ADHD

791
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,100
or both, as well as comorbidity,
other mental health issues.

792
00:45:50,879 --> 00:45:53,879
And they may have been struggling
for a very long time to

793
00:45:53,879 --> 00:45:55,050
understand what's happening.

794
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,130
So I work with families, so not just
the person who's got the diagnosis, but

795
00:45:59,300 --> 00:46:06,039
with their partner or their children
or the whole family and using polyvagal

796
00:46:06,100 --> 00:46:08,460
theory, not just polyvagal theory.

797
00:46:08,460 --> 00:46:12,159
I've also, I've coined a term I've
often wanted to say that I've coined

798
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,549
a term sensory lifestyle medicine.

799
00:46:15,099 --> 00:46:18,750
So using polyvagal theory and sensory
lifestyle medicine and tracking our

800
00:46:18,750 --> 00:46:22,100
dopamine seeking behaviors, this
creates a language for somebody

801
00:46:22,100 --> 00:46:23,640
to chat with their partner about.

802
00:46:24,155 --> 00:46:28,655
And so you can bring in, it's kind
of like if you have a behavior

803
00:46:28,695 --> 00:46:32,275
support plan, like if somebody is
distressed, this is how you can

804
00:46:32,275 --> 00:46:34,264
respond to help them not be distressed.

805
00:46:34,595 --> 00:46:36,914
This is the kind of thing I'm
developing with clients and

806
00:46:36,914 --> 00:46:38,095
their partners and children.

807
00:46:38,514 --> 00:46:41,884
So if you see me distressed, this
is how I want you to respond to

808
00:46:41,884 --> 00:46:43,435
me, and that will help me regulate.

809
00:46:43,895 --> 00:46:46,605
And so through upskilling, you know.

810
00:46:46,965 --> 00:46:53,435
Really supportive, nonjudgmental way
families are learning to support each

811
00:46:53,435 --> 00:46:58,825
other when they're in a state of distress
in a very respectful, empowering way.

812
00:46:59,325 --> 00:47:01,144
It's, it's absolutely.

813
00:47:01,780 --> 00:47:02,850
So beautiful.

814
00:47:03,350 --> 00:47:10,780
And from these results, people have been
able to deescalate issues arising just

815
00:47:10,780 --> 00:47:13,350
because there's now a common language.

816
00:47:13,540 --> 00:47:13,910
Yeah.

817
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,380
So it gives partners a communication,
like, so they can communicate.

818
00:47:17,705 --> 00:47:21,865
With each other, the communication
really is totally different.

819
00:47:21,875 --> 00:47:25,265
So after six to 12 months, they
are communicating in a way that

820
00:47:25,275 --> 00:47:28,205
is totally, would have been very
foreign to them 12 months ago.

821
00:47:28,595 --> 00:47:33,904
And we're seeing things like the
time somebody is extremely distressed

822
00:47:33,904 --> 00:47:35,704
or suicidal is much shorter.

823
00:47:35,775 --> 00:47:37,235
The recovery is much shorter.

824
00:47:37,235 --> 00:47:42,235
The sense of shame and feeling really
bad about yourself from having a

825
00:47:42,235 --> 00:47:44,995
dysregulated time is much shorter.

826
00:47:45,674 --> 00:47:47,245
People are getting back on track.

827
00:47:47,510 --> 00:47:53,960
So much quicker, it's also where partners
are able to help prevent dysregulation

828
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:59,530
by saying, there's one couple who came
up with, they created little cards.

829
00:47:59,530 --> 00:48:02,719
They could say, if I give you
this card, it means I think

830
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:04,110
you're becoming dysregulated.

831
00:48:04,629 --> 00:48:08,640
And so that means if I was to be given
that card, my partner saying, Oh, Sarah,

832
00:48:08,670 --> 00:48:10,060
I think you're becoming dysregulated.

833
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:10,580
Oh yeah.

834
00:48:10,580 --> 00:48:10,930
Okay.

835
00:48:11,170 --> 00:48:12,730
I might go do some deep breathing.

836
00:48:13,510 --> 00:48:15,540
That means I'm going to
calm my nervous system.

837
00:48:15,540 --> 00:48:17,450
That's an evidence based strategy.

838
00:48:17,450 --> 00:48:23,040
When you're breathing slowly and deeply,
it's physiologically impossible to panic.

839
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,020
So that helps too.

840
00:48:25,300 --> 00:48:29,140
It's one of the many strategies
that can help bypass really

841
00:48:29,150 --> 00:48:30,639
big dysregulation and distress.

842
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,460
That's really amazing.

843
00:48:33,979 --> 00:48:35,519
Very proud of my client.

844
00:48:35,519 --> 00:48:35,529
I

845
00:48:35,809 --> 00:48:37,399
think I'm getting nice results.

846
00:48:37,950 --> 00:48:40,604
And you should be extremely proud.

847
00:48:41,115 --> 00:48:42,175
They're amazing people.

848
00:48:42,435 --> 00:48:48,145
And looking back at your lived experience,
do you think, and this is just from

849
00:48:48,145 --> 00:48:53,935
the outside looking in, you know, do
you think your inability to communicate

850
00:48:53,985 --> 00:48:57,320
with Ben when he was escalating.

851
00:48:57,650 --> 00:49:02,530
Do you think that's why you've
really focused on the ability of

852
00:49:03,270 --> 00:49:04,740
communication and clear communication?

853
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:07,299
That's a really good question, Catherine.

854
00:49:07,570 --> 00:49:10,729
I think that, yeah, I think you've
probably hit the nail on the head.

855
00:49:10,729 --> 00:49:17,389
There's a, when somebody is, is that
distressed and we cannot reach them.

856
00:49:17,935 --> 00:49:22,465
And they're at risk of suicide,
or dying, or harming themselves.

857
00:49:22,965 --> 00:49:27,824
Yeah, that probably speaks to that deep
scar that I have not being able to reach.

858
00:49:27,835 --> 00:49:29,385
Ben, I hadn't thought of that.

859
00:49:29,565 --> 00:49:31,254
I think you've hit the nail on the head.

860
00:49:31,745 --> 00:49:38,034
But it's very important to me to help
people feel safe in their own body.

861
00:49:38,465 --> 00:49:42,355
Because the moment when we don't
feel safe, we don't have access

862
00:49:42,355 --> 00:49:46,665
to our frontal lobe where we
can reason and problem solve.

863
00:49:47,685 --> 00:49:51,735
And it can lead to, in the extreme
case of with schizophrenia, like

864
00:49:51,735 --> 00:49:54,195
my, Ben could only see monsters.

865
00:49:54,195 --> 00:49:57,584
He thought family were monsters and we
were taking out his liver and heart.

866
00:49:58,550 --> 00:50:04,600
If we can avoid that by supporting
each other to feel safe in our own skin

867
00:50:04,890 --> 00:50:06,910
without shame because we're different.

868
00:50:07,510 --> 00:50:14,450
And Sarah, what advice would you
give to family members who might find

869
00:50:14,450 --> 00:50:18,279
themselves in a similar situation to you?

870
00:50:18,610 --> 00:50:25,550
When someone is escalating, what
would you recommend or even grieving

871
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,270
because they've lost a loved one?

872
00:50:27,830 --> 00:50:32,519
If you have a family member with
a severe mental health issue or

873
00:50:33,260 --> 00:50:38,350
mental health issue, I think the
most important thing is self care.

874
00:50:38,875 --> 00:50:41,705
This is such a common
experience as a carer, as a

875
00:50:41,725 --> 00:50:44,275
partner, a sibling or a parent.

876
00:50:44,745 --> 00:50:49,715
Their own personal self care is usually
way, way down on the bottom of the ladder.

877
00:50:50,205 --> 00:50:57,585
We cannot really help somebody co
regulate or to regulate their own nervous

878
00:50:57,585 --> 00:51:00,064
system if we're not looking after ours.

879
00:51:00,425 --> 00:51:04,445
So I know people think it's really
selfish to prioritize your own self

880
00:51:04,445 --> 00:51:09,435
care, but I like to flip it and say, it's
actually, you're not helping if you're

881
00:51:09,435 --> 00:51:11,345
not looking after your own nervous system.

882
00:51:11,745 --> 00:51:15,494
And I say that with compassion
and empathy, not, not as a, you

883
00:51:15,495 --> 00:51:19,845
know, you should, but to try and
help people shift that viewpoint.

884
00:51:20,485 --> 00:51:25,055
You actually need to care for
you as your number one priority.

885
00:51:25,385 --> 00:51:26,695
Above your loved one.

886
00:51:26,695 --> 00:51:27,665
Who's very unwell.

887
00:51:28,175 --> 00:51:31,665
If that means you need extra
support, get the extra support.

888
00:51:32,565 --> 00:51:34,145
That means getting a cleaner.

889
00:51:34,145 --> 00:51:39,955
If you can get in a cleaner, if that means
see a psychologist, see a psychologist.

890
00:51:40,485 --> 00:51:43,455
There's help for anybody who's grieving.

891
00:51:44,295 --> 00:51:46,935
I'm sorry for your loss,
I know how hard it is.

892
00:51:47,385 --> 00:51:47,765
Feel it.

893
00:51:48,775 --> 00:51:52,974
I can't thank you enough
for your time today, Sarah.

894
00:51:53,115 --> 00:52:01,644
And just sharing your story about
Ben, and it's something that very

895
00:52:01,644 --> 00:52:07,175
few people ever experience in
their life, is losing someone and

896
00:52:07,175 --> 00:52:08,835
literally having them go missing.

897
00:52:08,835 --> 00:52:08,935
Thank you.

898
00:52:09,540 --> 00:52:10,890
And not know what happened.

899
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:17,510
So, thank you for being very
honest and open with your story.

900
00:52:17,970 --> 00:52:19,390
You are most welcome.

901
00:52:20,140 --> 00:52:22,800
Thank you for listening and
inviting me to talk about it.

902
00:52:23,099 --> 00:52:27,050
It's really lovely to reconnect with
the sense of purpose and meaning.

903
00:52:27,679 --> 00:52:28,470
We appreciate it.

904
00:52:28,959 --> 00:52:32,880
Well, it certainly sounds like
it's embedded in what you're

905
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:34,440
doing every day nowadays.

906
00:52:35,140 --> 00:52:36,310
Thanks so much, Sarah.

907
00:52:38,950 --> 00:52:42,370
We hope you enjoyed today's
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908
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:44,260
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909
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:49,459
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910
00:52:49,460 --> 00:52:51,290
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911
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912
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913
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917
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