From Life to Death: Understanding Human Behaviour with Anthropologist Dr Hannah Gould
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About this episode
Ever wondered what an anthropologist who studies death really does? Join me as I chat with Dr Hannah Gould, a fascinating cultural anthropologist who dives deep into the diverse rituals and beliefs surrounding death across the globe.
In this episode of "Don't Be Caught Dead," I have the pleasure of welcoming Dr Hannah Gould, an anthropologist with a unique focus: the stuff of death and the death of stuff.
Hannah's research delves into how different cultures approach death, dying, and the material world that surrounds these universal experiences. We explore what it means to be a modern anthropologist and how her upbringing and education led her to this intriguing field.
Hannah shares her journey from aspiring philosopher to passionate anthropologist, driven by a chance class and a profound love for understanding human behaviour. We discuss how death is both a universal and culturally distinct experience, shaped by rituals, stories, and practices that vary dramatically around the world.
This conversation covers everything from Hannah's personal experiences with death in her family to the broader societal implications of how we handle death. We also touch on the often overlooked but vital roles played by those in the death care industry and the ongoing need for better regulation and appreciation of these essential services.
Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine
Show notes
Guest Bio
Anthropologist
Melbourne Postdoctoral Fellow | The University of Melbourne Fellow | DeathTech Research Team
Project Manager, Modern & Contemporary Japan Collaborative, JPP President, Australian Death Studies Society
From Hannah's website:
I am an anthropologist interested in death, Buddhism, and material culture. My research spans new traditions and technologies of Buddhist death rites, the lifecycle of religious materials, and modern lifestyle movements. In sum, I study the stuff of death and death of stuff.
I hold a PhD in Anthropology at the University of Melbourne and a MSc from Oxford University. For my doctoral research, I worked in Japanese Buddhist altar stores, to investigate how cultural traditions around death can themselves ‘die’, be replaced, or transformed. The research is published inWhen Death Falls Apart, out now with the University of Chicago Press.
I currently hold a Melbourne Postdoctoral Fellowship (2022-2025) for the project “Transnational Futures of Deathcare in the Asia-Pacific”.
Summary
What we cover:
- Introduction to Dr Hannah Gould and her work as a cultural anthropologist.
- The transition from studying philosophy and linguistics to anthropology.
- Exploring the universal and diverse nature of death rituals across cultures.
- Personal anecdotes about family travel and early encounters with different cultures.
- Reflections on societal attitudes towards death and the death care industry.
- The impact of COVID-19 on the funeral industry and death care practices.
- Insights into the need for better regulation and support for those working in death care.
Transcript
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Catherine: Today we have
Hannah Gould joining us on the
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Don't Be Caught Dead podcast.
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Hannah is an anthropologist and as
described on her website, I study the
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stuff of death and the death of stuff.
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Welcome
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Hannah: to the podcast,
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Catherine: Today we have
Hannah Gould joining us on the
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Don't Be Caught Dead podcast.
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Hannah is an anthropologist and as
described on her website, I study the
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stuff of death and the death of stuff.
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Welcome
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Hannah: to the podcast,
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Catherine: Hannah.
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Hannah: Hi, thank you for having me.
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Very proud of that line.
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I don't know when it came up with it,
but it really kind of crystallized
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a lot of my research interests.
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So I thought, perfect, I finally got it.
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Catherine: And tell us,
what is an anthropologist?
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I always think of very colonial
or European ideas when I
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think of anthropologists.
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So what does a modern
anthropologist, what does it involve?
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Hannah: Yeah, I mean, I suppose like
the European colonial project is
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certainly very much where anthropology
comes from, as kind of most academic
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disciplines, you know, that's where the
university system we have comes from.
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But fundamentally an anthropologist
is a, a type of, social scientists.
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So we're interested in human behavior.
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And there's many different
types of anthropology.
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Some people, you know, study bones
and archeological kind of formations,
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and there's people doing forensic
anthropology who are interested in
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questions of decomposition and toponomy.
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But I'm a cultural anthropologist.
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And cultural anthropologists are
really fundamentally interested
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in what unites us as humans.
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What are the kind of fundamental
universals of human experience, whether
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that be things like love or, uh, suffering
or loss, all of these big questions.
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But then also on the flip side of that,
what kind of marks us as distinct or,
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you know, stands us apart, different
cultures and societies around the world.
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So death is a great example of this.
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It is a universal experience of
humanity, probably potentially
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one of our only universals.
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But at the same time, you know, the
way that we respond to death and dying.
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around the world is
incredibly diverse, right?
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So the rituals we have, the frameworks
we have, the stories we tell each other
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about, the afterlife, these are all
like very diverse, different ways that
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we confront this universal question.
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So anthropologists are
interested in like studying that
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diversity and that universalism.
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And I suppose part of that is also to try
and Reflect critically on our own cultural
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background and the own particular way
that we look at death and dying through
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an exploration of how other people in
other places look at death and dying.
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And
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Catherine: what led you down this path?
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Was like there a something
that happened in your life?
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Or have you always been
interested in other people?
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Like what was the thing?
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Is there one moment where you went,
aha, that's what I want to do.
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It's so
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Hannah: incredibly
embarrassing in some ways.
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I didn't really ever think I was
going to be an anthropologist.
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I didn't like going to university
wanting to become an anthropologist.
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I thought I was going to be a philosopher,
a philosopher and a linguist, and I
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ended up continuing with linguistics.
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And then I just decided to randomly
take an anthropology class.
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I'm pretty sure it was because
I had a crush on somebody at the
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time in first year university and
they were taking anthropology.
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And I was like, yeah, this is great.
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We're going to do this subject
together and fall in love.
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Look, I ended up falling in
love with the discipline and
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not the person as, as things go.
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But I, I think the appeal for
anthropology for me is, is kind
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of, it has been described once
as like, you know, anthropology
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is philosophy with people in it.
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So it's about how people live
their kind of philosophies, right?
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How we live our beliefs
and experience the world.
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And there's something really attractive
about being able to do that kind
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of research and talk to people and
experience what they experience and try
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and shift your world view in that way.
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Yeah, I suppose I was also already primed
for it as well with my upbringing and my
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parents being really interested in travel
and they kind of pulled me out of school.
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a lot during primary school and high
school to go travel because I just
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felt that that was a better education.
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So I've been lucky and privileged
to have those experiences.
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And I suppose be primed to wanting to
become an anthropologist in many ways.
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Yeah.
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Catherine: And what did your parents do
that they, they valued the experience
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of travel and what that can teach
you over perhaps a conventional,
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you know, sitting in the class
and reading passages from a book?
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Hannah: Yeah.
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Well, I mean, It's interesting,
like reflecting on it, they're both
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incredibly like humanistic careers.
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So my mum, the story she always tells
is that she was a, gosh, I'm going
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to get this wrong, a biochemist,
or she was, she was studying
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biology and she had a job testing
Melbourne's waterways or something.
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And then she decided, apparently
one day, that basically that humans
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were more interesting than microbes.
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So this is the line.
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And she decided to go back to
university and became a social worker.
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So she worked as a social worker
in hospitals and acute boards
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and very challenging kind of
situations for most of my childhood.
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And then my dad is a, well, he was a
teacher and in particular, he became a,
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he was a phys ed teacher, but he became
a student welfare coordinator and like,
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that sort of thing, which now I'm going
to reflect on that, that like those
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two professions are very kind of human,
like, you know, humanistic engage with
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people and their concerns and troubles.
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Which is not really something I think
I would ever thought I would get into.
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I always felt I was far more kind
of like academic and books and, you
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know, keeping people at arm's length.
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But in the end of the day, anthropology
is, is, is a bit about getting,
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getting, getting down in the muck with
people and messing human emotions and
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relationships and all that sort of stuff.
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So probably take after
them a bit in that way.
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Catherine: And tell me, how
old were you when your mum went
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back to university to study?
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Hannah: I, this must've
been before I was, What?
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Gosh, you always think about these
things like, wow, I should really
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talk to my parents about these things.
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Uh, no, this must've been around
about the time my older brother was
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born and then I, and then I was born.
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So she, yeah, she's direct part time when
I was a young child and, and kind of then
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went back to full time work as a social
worker and continues to this day working
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as a supervisor for social work graduates
and that sort of thing in the university.
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So weirdly enough, he has been my
colleague at some points as well.
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Catherine: Oh, wow.
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That must've been quite an interesting
experience to actually have your mom
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as a colleague in the same field.
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Hannah: Yeah, I mean, it's a funny,
I mean, social work is a different
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field in many ways, but then I have
moved more into doing work in kind of
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broadly health sciences and working
alongside a lot of social workers.
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So that's been quite nice to really
appreciate a bit more of their role
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and just how important they are
around, you know, death and dying
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and grief and that sort of thing.
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In a way that it kind of, you know,
no one really understands what
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their parents do when they grow up.
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And most people don't understand
what their best friends do, right?
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Like you have a vague
idea of your key words.
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But sometimes it's quite nice
to actually, ah, gain a greater
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appreciation, I suppose.
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Catherine: And when you were growing up
where did you travel with your parents
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when you were taken out of school?
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Hannah: Well, so my parents had
spent some time in the UK previously.
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And so the first kind of big trip I
remember was when I was six and we
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went to, gosh, we went all like, you
know, through Scotland and England and.
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Through Paris and France and on the
way, cause you know, those days still
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to this day, you know, it's always a.
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Southeast Asian stopover.
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We also spent quite a lot of time
in Hong Kong, which was really cool.
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And so that was the kind of the best,
the, the, the first kind of big trip.
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And then later it was, you know, we were
very quickly, I think I was taking out of
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school, my final year of primary school
to, to go to China, which was quite,
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you know, mind blowing for the 1990s.
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I think I must've been about nine,
nine, two or something like that.
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And then, you know, a lot of, a lot of,
kind of, appreciation of going throughout
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a lot of, kind of, Vietnam and Laos and
those, kind of, Southeast Asian countries.
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There was also, I suppose, like a
very strong emphasis that my parents
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had on second language education.
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So becoming fluent in a second language
and then traveling to that country a lot.
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So in my case, that was, It's Japanese
because the local primary school
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just happened to teach Japanese.
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And so that was the one
that I was committed to.
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I think in that kind of parental way of
that's something, a skill that I didn't
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have, and I kind of maybe an experience
or an opportunity they didn't have.
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And so we're very much invested in me
gaining that knowledge and really pushed
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me to not only just like gain fluency in
the language, but then go and travel to
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Japan and, and kind of gain, gain cultural
fluency as well as linguistic fluency.
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Yeah.
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Catherine: And when did
you travel to Japan?
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Was that part of school or was that later?
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Hannah: No, it was
between years 10 and 11.
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And actually I lunked out on a Japanese
language listening test, which was,
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uh, I was like a straight A student and
then got this D for Japanese listening.
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Which I should say that most
of my class failed this test.
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So I'm not sure it's really a
reflection on me as opposed to
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the, the sensei at the time.
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But I always knew that I wanted to
gain fluency, but it's an incredibly
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difficult thing to do if you're not
in a Japanese language environment.
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And so I kind of went to my parents
and said, well, you know, I'd
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really like to go on exchange.
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So I went on exchange in high school
in between years 10 and 11 for a
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couple of months, and then basically
have been back and forth to Japan kind
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of once a year ever since I suppose.
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And really it was a really transformative
experience in just terms of like,
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Changing the brain to be able to speak
Japanese in that way that you kind of,
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it's quite difficult to get if you're
in Australia or in any other country
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that that's not the majority language.
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So, um, yeah, I think it was like
15 got on a plane and off I went.
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Catherine: Very exciting.
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And very must.
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They're very formative years in which to
actually experience another culture to
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and actually live there for a few months.
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Yeah.
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Hannah: Yeah, and I, you know, it's,
it's that kind of interesting way of
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the kind of small things like, you
know, cultural, how you move through
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the world, how you treat other people,
those kind of difficult to explain and
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perhaps difficult to put into words kind
of cultural norms that you experience
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early on probably shapes you quite a lot.
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Like,
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so like there's lots of different
things, but you know, one of them is,
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is how politeness is expressed and
how your relationship to other people.
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And I think, you know, a pretty strong
cultural norm in Japan is that this
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desire not to, to be a burden to other
people or to like, kind of put them
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out as it were by, by your own actions.
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Like one of the worst things you can
kind of be called in Japanese is, uh,
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mindokusai, like you're a mindo, which
is like a burden on other people.
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And so,
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There's a great amount of deference,
therefore, to kind of, you know,
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making sure that you're, you kind of,
you have your shit together, right?
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That you, you're not kind of bending other
people to look after you in that way.
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And I think that is quite distinct
and different to say, perhaps the
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other extreme of something like, you
know, U S American culture, right.
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Where it's a very kind of
positive sociality and which
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like expressing yourself and.
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You know, taking up space physically as
well as like socially and emotionally is,
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is seen as kind of welcome and normal.
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And you have that kind of stereotype
of like, Oh, the American always
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introduces themselves to you on the
bus or the train, the plane, and
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asks you about their life story.
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And so obviously I think, you
know, Australia is potentially
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somewhere in the middle there or
has a slightly different formation.
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But yeah, those kind of things I think
really shaped me and continue to shape
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me in, in who I am and how I approach
the world, but also then gives you
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another set of tools, another set of
skills that when you're interacting
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with different people, you can kind of
negotiate that relationship, I suppose.
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And 15 is also great for like food
and music and culture and all that
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sort of stuff that you get to, you
know, explore and have fun with.
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And I think it probably changed a lot of
like, I don't know, my popular culture
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tastes and that kind of thing as well.
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Catherine: I know my son went over,
uh, at the same time to Japan for three
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months and we school on exchange also.
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And the big things for him that he
came back with were, Uh, there was no
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bins and so that was the thing that
he was like really surprised about
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Hannah: and,
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Catherine: uh, the vending machines
and what you could buy in a vending
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machine and what you could buy at
a 7 Eleven was amazing, he said.
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Hannah: Fascinating in some
ways also to just think about
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Australia's relationship with Japan.
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In the space of a few short generations,
like my grandparents on both sides were,
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you know, part of World War II, you know,
efforts where the Japanese people were
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seen as nothing but the enemy, right?
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And like this kind of really evil force
coming to invade Australia as it were.
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And you know, two generations down I'm
marrying them and my husband's Japanese.
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You know, so it's a real interesting,
you know, and it seems like at
237
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the moment every second person is
heading to Japan for a holiday.
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Skiing, you know, whatever it is.
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I've never skied in Japan.
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I go to Japan like every
year and I've never skied.
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So that's.
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that tax bracket.
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But you know, it's, it is interesting
to kind of see how, yeah, how, just how
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much culture appreciation has transformed
in two short generations, but just
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within my own personal life, but more
broadly in Australia, I think it's kind
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of quite extraordinary in some ways.
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Catherine: And especially when the fact
that Really, Japan was the only country
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in conflict that's actually really made it
to Australia and the shores of Australia.
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Unlike, you know, other conflicts
where they've been quite at a
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distance and in European grounds.
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So it is amazing that We have gone
through that transition in, in that
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short period of time of just really
two generations and, and those
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older generations, you know, some of
them still actually survive today.
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So there's still that recent
memory, you know, so it is, it is
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interesting that that has been the
path that we've come from and, and
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tell me the fascination or should
I, should I call it the fascination?
257
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I'm not sure.
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You explain to me what, what
is it about death, Hannah?
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Hannah: Oh God.
260
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I mean, people ask me this because
there's something like, think perhaps
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people find it unnerving about
262
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the idea that like this is my
primary interest of research or
263
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like this is what I'm interested in.
264
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Death and Buddhism.
265
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It's a big questions.
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In some ways, I mean, like, death is
the perfect example of what cultural
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00:15:46,096 --> 00:15:47,476
anthropology is all about, right?
268
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It's a universal experience that
we all do extremely differently
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which I think is fascinating.
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But then also, I, I suppose
intellectually as well, I'm really
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interested in how people relate to
the material world around them, right?
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And, and, and how they kind of the
stuff they buy or they purchase
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and they make and that kind of
relationship and how that relationship
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is transformed by this kind of
fundamental understanding at the heart of
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human experience but also at the heart
of Buddhist teaching which is that that
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material world is impermanent and that
it will decay and decompose and die.
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00:16:27,871 --> 00:16:34,391
And so how do we kind of navigate a world
that is fundamentally uncertain, right?
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Or because it's always in
transition away from us.
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And in some ways it's
like, well, why, why not?
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study death.
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And it's like, why this question?
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It's like, well, there is
no other question, right?
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00:16:43,451 --> 00:16:48,651
Like this is the question, like
every, why study anything else?
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Like in some part of me, it's
like, well, this is the fundamental
285
00:16:51,961 --> 00:16:53,171
question of human experience.
286
00:16:53,181 --> 00:16:55,441
Why would I not be spending
all my time researching it?
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00:16:55,841 --> 00:17:00,431
And obviously that manifests in different
areas subcategories and all these kinds
288
00:17:00,431 --> 00:17:03,811
of things and questions and projects,
but it all comes back to that fundamental
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00:17:03,811 --> 00:17:07,181
idea of like, well, how do we, how
do we be in a world that we know is
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temporary, that we know is going to.
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end and die.
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And so it's come as it's quite funny
when I talk to other scholars about
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their work because they seem so shocked
that I want to study death and dying
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because it's morbid or it's it's
taboo or, you know, it's depressing.
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But I think, well, but
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it's, it's not once you get into it,
you know, it's nothing but fascinating.
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00:17:29,466 --> 00:17:32,106
And yeah, I, I, it's kind of interesting.
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It's like, why would you
study anything else really?
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It's
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00:17:35,931 --> 00:17:38,521
Catherine: interesting that you say
that, that scholars are the ones that
301
00:17:38,521 --> 00:17:45,731
question you about why you study death
and, and Buddhism and the impermanence
302
00:17:46,031 --> 00:17:49,301
of life and the ephemeral nature of it.
303
00:17:49,781 --> 00:17:53,691
Because there was an interview
that I had recently with Lauren
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Breen and, uh, Shelley Skinner
from Lionheart Camp for Kids.
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00:17:59,731 --> 00:18:00,421
Hannah: And
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00:18:00,936 --> 00:18:03,746
Catherine: Their research, which you'd
be aware of, is obviously where they
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took the questions that children on the
first day of camp, uh, they write down
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what a question is that they've never
asked anyone about death and dying.
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00:18:12,336 --> 00:18:17,146
And one of those questions is, and
I'm probably going to paraphrase
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00:18:17,146 --> 00:18:20,936
it incorrectly, but you'll get the
gist of it is the fact that, you
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00:18:20,936 --> 00:18:24,096
know, why do we live if we die?
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And like, that's from a
child and it really is.
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Such a profound question.
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00:18:32,636 --> 00:18:36,236
Hannah: Yeah, I do think that most of
the time when we talk about children and
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00:18:36,236 --> 00:18:40,966
death and Lauren's work and the Lionheart
camp work is extraordinary is that a lot
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00:18:40,966 --> 00:18:45,716
of the concern we have about children
and how they will react to death and all
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00:18:45,906 --> 00:18:49,346
this stuff is probably, well, probably,
it is most definitely a projection of
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00:18:49,356 --> 00:18:55,046
our own concerns about it and our kind
of fundamental discomfort with it.
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And, you know, children
tend to model what they see.
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And so if you are just uncomfortable
about death or, you know, don't
321
00:19:05,286 --> 00:19:07,906
want to talk about it, then kids
are going to grow up thinking they
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need to be uncomfortable about death
and don't want to talk about it.
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00:19:11,206 --> 00:19:15,856
And yet, you know, whenever I've talked
to kids at funerals, They're totally fine.
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They know what's going on.
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00:19:16,986 --> 00:19:19,426
They've got, you know, the tools
to deal with it much more than
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00:19:19,426 --> 00:19:20,586
adults do a lot of the time.
327
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Yeah.
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00:19:22,956 --> 00:19:27,196
Catherine: And when you were a child,
did you have family conversations
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00:19:27,206 --> 00:19:33,786
about death or dying or, uh, about,
you know, if I die, this is what I'd
330
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like, or this is who I'd bank with.
331
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Did you ever have any of those
round table conversations?
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00:19:40,696 --> 00:19:43,256
Hannah: Like, not particularly
that I can remember.
333
00:19:44,446 --> 00:19:49,856
Probably the first kind of important
death in my life was of my grandfather
334
00:19:49,856 --> 00:19:55,566
on my mum's side, who he is kind
of someone I really wish I had had
335
00:19:55,566 --> 00:19:57,176
more opportunity to spend time with.
336
00:19:57,446 --> 00:20:02,696
So he had multiple sclerosis and died
quite young for those days, but, you
337
00:20:02,696 --> 00:20:05,576
know, also kind of lived with the
disease for a really, really long time,
338
00:20:05,586 --> 00:20:09,716
you know, bedridden and wasn't able
to kind of, but he was also, he was
339
00:20:09,716 --> 00:20:11,246
a great linguist and a great scholar.
340
00:20:11,246 --> 00:20:13,656
And so I feel like in many
ways, as my mum talks about
341
00:20:13,656 --> 00:20:14,896
him, like we really would have.
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00:20:15,296 --> 00:20:19,976
got on in many ways if we had had
the opportunity to do so, as it were.
343
00:20:20,436 --> 00:20:24,576
So I do remember him dying and I remember
kind of that being the first kind of
344
00:20:24,606 --> 00:20:28,736
confrontation with death and dying in
our family and the kind of first sense
345
00:20:28,736 --> 00:20:34,471
of, you know, of seeing, you know, what
do funerals in our family look like?
346
00:20:34,471 --> 00:20:36,631
And what does religion
in our family look like?
347
00:20:36,631 --> 00:20:38,041
And all those kinds of things.
348
00:20:38,301 --> 00:20:39,431
What does grief look like?
349
00:20:39,441 --> 00:20:41,631
How do you know those kinds
of fundamental things that you
350
00:20:41,631 --> 00:20:43,721
pick up through osmosis almost.
351
00:20:44,591 --> 00:20:49,001
But I don't, I don't think we were
particularly death denying in that
352
00:20:49,001 --> 00:20:52,131
kind of way, but we didn't also kind
of say, well, here's my plan and
353
00:20:52,131 --> 00:20:55,151
here's what wants to happen to me
and all those kinds of things either.
354
00:20:55,661 --> 00:20:58,161
Uh, we do now mostly because I
bring it up at every occasion,
355
00:20:58,181 --> 00:21:01,586
but I think that's probably just
because like, It's my nine to five.
356
00:21:01,616 --> 00:21:05,486
Like it's quite hard to be death
denying when you've got someone who
357
00:21:05,836 --> 00:21:08,456
has a PhD in it, like hanging around.
358
00:21:09,776 --> 00:21:10,146
Catherine: Yes.
359
00:21:10,146 --> 00:21:12,636
I have to say that the
conversations have certainly
360
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shifted in our household as well.
361
00:21:14,636 --> 00:21:16,246
You know, but at the same time,
362
00:21:17,036 --> 00:21:18,846
Hannah: it's just like,
what did you do today?
363
00:21:18,906 --> 00:21:22,516
It was like, Oh, I was working in the
crematorium today for my research project.
364
00:21:22,566 --> 00:21:23,076
Like,
365
00:21:25,506 --> 00:21:25,626
Catherine: yeah.
366
00:21:25,646 --> 00:21:29,566
Or, or the stories that you hear and you
go, Oh my goodness, I heard this story.
367
00:21:29,566 --> 00:21:29,926
And.
368
00:21:30,371 --> 00:21:34,171
you know, there's always something you can
learn from different stories, isn't there?
369
00:21:34,821 --> 00:21:38,351
Hannah: Yeah, I do think, I, sometimes
I feel that one of the things about
370
00:21:38,351 --> 00:21:44,601
being, working and researching in this
area and about, more broadly about this
371
00:21:44,601 --> 00:21:48,221
conversation of like, death literacy or
taboo and that sort of thing, is that
372
00:21:49,211 --> 00:21:53,386
people have a right I actually tend
to think that people have a right not
373
00:21:53,396 --> 00:21:58,696
to think about death all the time and
it's not, you know, I think there's
374
00:21:58,696 --> 00:22:02,726
a kind of tendency sometimes within
the death literacy, death education
375
00:22:02,726 --> 00:22:06,356
space to be like, we must always
be having conversations about it.
376
00:22:06,686 --> 00:22:10,556
it has to be super open, you know,
it has to be, you know, we always
377
00:22:10,556 --> 00:22:11,816
have to be thinking about it.
378
00:22:12,146 --> 00:22:19,216
And I just fundamentally think that not
necessarily, maybe case by case, like you,
379
00:22:19,756 --> 00:22:24,436
so sometimes some of the stories that I
have in researching in the crematorium,
380
00:22:24,446 --> 00:22:29,146
for example, recently, and kind of the
very, intimate, pragmatic, practical
381
00:22:29,146 --> 00:22:34,096
details that you learn about how ashes
are handled, how bodies are handled.
382
00:22:35,076 --> 00:22:37,896
People don't necessarily
have to know that.
383
00:22:37,986 --> 00:22:41,731
If they don't want to know,
what happens in a crematorium.
384
00:22:42,081 --> 00:22:44,711
And I think that's totally
fine that they don't know.
385
00:22:45,241 --> 00:22:49,351
I think people have a kind of sense that,
oh, if everyone knew everything, we'd
386
00:22:49,351 --> 00:22:52,851
make different decisions, but sometimes
actually your decision is to not know.
387
00:22:53,061 --> 00:22:54,471
And that's kind of fine as well.
388
00:22:54,471 --> 00:22:59,441
I think I do have to be careful sometimes
as a researcher, but also as a friend,
389
00:22:59,441 --> 00:23:02,611
as a family member to, to not share
some of the stories that I learned
390
00:23:02,611 --> 00:23:05,591
in research, because I think that's
also a kindness to people as well.
391
00:23:08,011 --> 00:23:14,001
Catherine: And what have you seen
where you have been surprised by
392
00:23:14,021 --> 00:23:18,411
what you've uncovered, you know, is
something that you, you never knew that.
393
00:23:19,541 --> 00:23:20,641
You'd come across.
394
00:23:24,041 --> 00:23:24,681
Hannah: I'm in so many.
395
00:23:25,671 --> 00:23:30,771
I thought I, you know, I, for my PhD
work, I conducted research in Japan
396
00:23:31,161 --> 00:23:38,081
for two years or so, you know, 18
months working in Buddhist grave and
397
00:23:38,091 --> 00:23:41,941
Buddhist altar stores, you know, going
into people's homes and installing
398
00:23:42,251 --> 00:23:45,701
these objects that people use to
kind of make offerings to the dead to
399
00:23:45,711 --> 00:23:46,971
build a relationship with their dead.
400
00:23:48,031 --> 00:23:52,611
Um, And so there's, you know, so many
fundamentals of a death culture that
401
00:23:52,611 --> 00:23:57,301
I was less familiar with, that I've
learned that really surprised me about
402
00:23:58,271 --> 00:23:59,751
people's relationship to the dead.
403
00:24:00,521 --> 00:24:01,861
What is expected of them?
404
00:24:02,261 --> 00:24:06,261
What, you know, what obligations that you
have to the deceased to look after them?
405
00:24:06,471 --> 00:24:08,061
But then also about my own death culture.
406
00:24:08,061 --> 00:24:11,841
More recently have been doing a lot
of work in Australia and looking
407
00:24:11,841 --> 00:24:13,041
at death culture in Australia.
408
00:24:13,471 --> 00:24:16,701
You know, fundamentals, just about
everyday things, I suppose, about the
409
00:24:16,701 --> 00:24:21,181
process of cremation or the process of
caring for bodies or memorialization.
410
00:24:21,831 --> 00:24:24,901
That do very much feel like you're
stepping behind the curtain, the
411
00:24:24,901 --> 00:24:27,271
kind of backstage of death and dying.
412
00:24:27,501 --> 00:24:33,431
And probably in both of those experiences,
more than anything else, what I've
413
00:24:33,431 --> 00:24:37,681
really gained is like a fundamental,
deep appreciation and respect for death.
414
00:24:38,431 --> 00:24:43,891
Whether that be someone who arranges
a funeral or someone who digs
415
00:24:43,891 --> 00:24:50,771
a grave or washes the body and
embalmers coffin makers, you know,
416
00:24:51,301 --> 00:24:57,011
religious celebrants of all kinds
of stripes and diverse backgrounds.
417
00:24:57,571 --> 00:25:00,461
My biggest lesson is probably just
how extraordinary these people
418
00:25:00,461 --> 00:25:08,371
are and how demonized they are and
underappreciated they are by many.
419
00:25:08,951 --> 00:25:13,271
Both just in, you know, in society
in general, that we don't often think
420
00:25:13,281 --> 00:25:18,241
about these people or we continue to
stigmatize them and feel that they are
421
00:25:18,251 --> 00:25:24,081
in some ways taboo or dirty or their work
is not appreciated, they get paid crap,
422
00:25:24,161 --> 00:25:26,701
you know, it's not a thankful thing.
423
00:25:26,961 --> 00:25:28,341
It's a pretty thankless task.
424
00:25:28,771 --> 00:25:31,451
But then also, you know, I think
there's been a lot of critique of
425
00:25:31,461 --> 00:25:33,551
the conventional funeral sector.
426
00:25:33,741 --> 00:25:37,461
And I think most, you know,
some of it is very reasonable.
427
00:25:37,831 --> 00:25:40,651
But also most of the people I meet in the
conventional funeral sector are really
428
00:25:40,651 --> 00:25:44,681
just trying to do the best possible
with limited resources and thankless
429
00:25:44,691 --> 00:25:48,611
tasks and, you know, pretty challenging.
430
00:25:49,151 --> 00:25:53,911
Kind of challenging vocational
pathways to, to kind of improve
431
00:25:53,911 --> 00:25:55,121
their job and change their job.
432
00:25:55,121 --> 00:25:58,061
So I think if anything, that's
the thing that's probably most
433
00:25:58,061 --> 00:26:01,651
surprised me is this, is this kind
of group of people who do this
434
00:26:01,651 --> 00:26:03,801
extraordinary and yet pretty thankless.
435
00:26:05,266 --> 00:26:07,846
work that we don't think about
enough and care for enough.
436
00:26:10,336 --> 00:26:13,116
Catherine: It's sort of like that
awareness that we became more
437
00:26:13,116 --> 00:26:19,066
conscious of our medical staff
and, uh, nurses and, uh, you know,
438
00:26:19,276 --> 00:26:21,776
general practitioners when COVID hit.
439
00:26:21,806 --> 00:26:26,076
And we had a real appreciation
for the healthcare workers then.
440
00:26:26,536 --> 00:26:31,046
And You know, I think that that
appreciation really needed, especially
441
00:26:31,046 --> 00:26:36,786
during that time when resources were so
stretched, people didn't realize that
442
00:26:36,796 --> 00:26:41,756
the work in our death care industry was
still being undertaken and overwhelmed.
443
00:26:41,776 --> 00:26:43,026
Like it was never before.
444
00:26:43,626 --> 00:26:46,366
Hannah: It was like, what we're talking
about is the difference between like
445
00:26:46,366 --> 00:26:49,126
the front line versus the end line.
446
00:26:49,941 --> 00:26:50,251
Yeah.
447
00:26:50,251 --> 00:26:53,731
So we had this, this project in
mind specifically about this issue.
448
00:26:54,151 --> 00:27:00,961
And it was just, it's just fundamentally
the obvious oversight of people working
449
00:27:00,961 --> 00:27:05,431
in death and dying is somewhat, it would
be comical if it wasn't so infuriating.
450
00:27:05,891 --> 00:27:10,271
So you know body trans, people who work
in body transport, so people who pick
451
00:27:10,271 --> 00:27:13,651
up the deceased from hospitals, aged
care homes, that sort of thing, you
452
00:27:13,651 --> 00:27:15,861
know, despite going into hospitals.
453
00:27:16,146 --> 00:27:19,846
into COVID wards, into aged care
homes with multiple infectious cases.
454
00:27:20,266 --> 00:27:24,356
They couldn't access tests,
right, for the longest time.
455
00:27:24,356 --> 00:27:28,456
They had to like, I talked to people who
had to pretend they had a cough or a cold
456
00:27:28,466 --> 00:27:34,486
in order to get a COVID test because their
line of work vocation wasn't recognized.
457
00:27:34,686 --> 00:27:37,786
For priority testing and similar,
similarly with the vaccine, right?
458
00:27:37,786 --> 00:27:42,116
Like I, at the time happened
to be employed for St.
459
00:27:42,116 --> 00:27:44,496
Vincent's hospital as a researcher.
460
00:27:44,546 --> 00:27:48,236
So I got access to the vaccine,
but people who were actually like.
461
00:27:48,671 --> 00:27:53,241
embalming deceased individuals
who had died of COVID didn't get
462
00:27:53,261 --> 00:27:56,381
priority access to the vaccine,
which I think is, it's crazy.
463
00:27:56,481 --> 00:28:00,271
And it's this kind of massive blind
spot, this massive black spot where the,
464
00:28:00,541 --> 00:28:04,471
the kind of death and dying are just
not, Fundamentally, they're not built
465
00:28:04,471 --> 00:28:07,451
into our emergency response, right?
466
00:28:07,461 --> 00:28:09,591
The state government's
emergency response, the federal
467
00:28:09,591 --> 00:28:10,861
government's emergency response.
468
00:28:11,431 --> 00:28:13,411
And you know, partially I
think this is just like, Oh,
469
00:28:13,551 --> 00:28:14,421
no one really thinks about it.
470
00:28:14,421 --> 00:28:19,131
But I think it's also because,
you know, death was really
471
00:28:19,131 --> 00:28:21,541
seen as like a defeat, right?
472
00:28:21,551 --> 00:28:26,121
Like that we were losing the battle
to COVID and therefore we don't really
473
00:28:26,121 --> 00:28:29,181
want to think about death and dying
because we all want to focus on winning.
474
00:28:29,591 --> 00:28:30,871
And winning equals life.
475
00:28:31,481 --> 00:28:35,601
So yeah, there was just no desire
to kind of acknowledge that that
476
00:28:35,601 --> 00:28:38,701
was a potential outcome from COVID
and that we should do that well.
477
00:28:39,216 --> 00:28:42,836
And support people who are doing that work
because of that fundamental, I feel like
478
00:28:42,856 --> 00:28:46,906
psychological block in people's minds to
think about death and dying in relation to
479
00:28:46,906 --> 00:28:49,406
COVID as anything more than like a defeat.
480
00:28:49,996 --> 00:28:50,336
Yeah.
481
00:28:51,276 --> 00:28:55,796
Catherine: And in your line of work,
have you seen that kind of gap on a,
482
00:28:56,846 --> 00:29:02,246
on, you know, on more than one occasion
where you look at a infrastructure
483
00:29:02,246 --> 00:29:06,396
or a process or framework and, and
the death care parts being left out?
484
00:29:07,006 --> 00:29:08,016
Hannah: Oh, all the time.
485
00:29:08,096 --> 00:29:11,906
I mean, it's, you know, it's everything
from like, like a fundamental
486
00:29:11,906 --> 00:29:13,666
one is urban planning, right?
487
00:29:13,666 --> 00:29:16,416
My, my older brother is an
urban planner, actually.
488
00:29:16,496 --> 00:29:20,826
So, I get a lot of my wisdom and any
wisdom I have from him about this.
489
00:29:20,856 --> 00:29:25,923
But, you know, when we build a new
suburb, or, you know, we think about,
490
00:29:25,923 --> 00:29:29,546
you know, the infrastructures of
urban spaces, you know, it's all about
491
00:29:29,546 --> 00:29:31,056
the living and not about the dead.
492
00:29:31,396 --> 00:29:34,356
So it's about, you know, where
will the kids go to school?
493
00:29:34,356 --> 00:29:35,756
And where's the local library?
494
00:29:35,756 --> 00:29:38,076
And where's the swimming
pool and the cricket ground?
495
00:29:38,086 --> 00:29:41,496
And okay, here's, here's maybe
even the hospital and here's the
496
00:29:41,516 --> 00:29:43,636
aged care home, but it's not okay.
497
00:29:43,636 --> 00:29:43,896
Great.
498
00:29:43,926 --> 00:29:45,371
But where are they going to be buried?
499
00:29:45,861 --> 00:29:46,211
Right.
500
00:29:46,241 --> 00:29:52,161
Or where, uh, the mortuary is going to
exist or how are those, how are those
501
00:29:52,291 --> 00:29:54,431
infrastructures relate to one another?
502
00:29:54,671 --> 00:29:57,271
And I think there is
some movement in this.
503
00:29:57,731 --> 00:30:01,981
I was talking to someone from Services
Australia recently about trying to
504
00:30:01,981 --> 00:30:06,676
integrate a kind of more cradle to grave
approach to, you know, The delivery of
505
00:30:06,676 --> 00:30:10,836
human services in Australia, because
fundamentally it has been kind of
506
00:30:11,246 --> 00:30:14,236
cradled to aging up until this point.
507
00:30:14,536 --> 00:30:18,316
I think, you know, we've seen an
incredible amount of progress, much more
508
00:30:18,316 --> 00:30:24,706
to come obviously in aged care services
sector, that kind of final step of through
509
00:30:24,706 --> 00:30:27,426
death and then bereavement is often quite.
510
00:30:28,076 --> 00:30:30,496
neglected from that conversation.
511
00:30:30,496 --> 00:30:35,336
So yeah, everything from cemetery
planning, space planning, to provision
512
00:30:35,336 --> 00:30:40,376
of services, to, you know, even just how
the death care sector is administered.
513
00:30:40,376 --> 00:30:46,286
I mean, it's very difficult if you
have a negative experience with a
514
00:30:46,286 --> 00:30:51,316
funeral home or crematorium, or it's
very difficult to work out who you
515
00:30:51,316 --> 00:30:53,586
should go to, how this is regulated.
516
00:30:54,276 --> 00:30:57,236
It's a black hole of
regulation in many ways, like.
517
00:30:58,241 --> 00:31:02,231
It's scary how easy it is to become
a funeral director in Australia.
518
00:31:02,651 --> 00:31:06,741
I could become a funeral director
tomorrow if I wanted to be, I think I
519
00:31:06,751 --> 00:31:09,931
have actually become a funeral director
for a day cause my friends wanted to
520
00:31:09,931 --> 00:31:13,001
illustrate, I wanted to illustrate how
easy it was for a talk I was giving.
521
00:31:13,581 --> 00:31:16,951
And so they just made me a funeral
director, but that shouldn't be the case.
522
00:31:17,731 --> 00:31:21,131
Like, yeah, this is, this
is this kind of problem.
523
00:31:21,211 --> 00:31:23,301
And it is a structural
problem in some ways, I think.
524
00:31:24,061 --> 00:31:27,801
As I, I've kind of hopefully wittily
said in the past, like, you know, the
525
00:31:27,801 --> 00:31:31,891
dead are a pretty bad constituency,
they don't vote, they don't have a lot
526
00:31:31,891 --> 00:31:36,081
of money, uh, they don't, they can't
lobby government when you're dead.
527
00:31:36,641 --> 00:31:39,901
So it's up for us, the living, to
kind of, and bereaved people and
528
00:31:39,901 --> 00:31:42,421
people who have gone through this
experience to try and make it better.
529
00:31:44,441 --> 00:31:48,611
Catherine: And how do you think people
can advocate for those improvements
530
00:31:48,611 --> 00:31:50,321
within the death care industry, Hannah?
531
00:31:54,661 --> 00:31:55,141
Hannah: It's true.
532
00:31:55,571 --> 00:31:56,801
It really is very challenging.
533
00:31:56,851 --> 00:32:02,011
I mean, part of it is even
where to start the conversation.
534
00:32:02,281 --> 00:32:05,361
And I think to be honest with you,
a lot of the success that we've
535
00:32:05,361 --> 00:32:08,771
seen globally and in Australia
has been at a real local level.
536
00:32:09,271 --> 00:32:13,551
So it's things like, you know, talking
to your local MP or local council.
537
00:32:14,001 --> 00:32:18,021
about how they have, you know, how
they resource or how they approach
538
00:32:18,021 --> 00:32:22,311
these kind of questions of cemeteries,
of memorial spaces, of, you know, the
539
00:32:22,311 --> 00:32:24,721
use of parks, those kind of things.
540
00:32:25,181 --> 00:32:27,761
Then I think there's a more
fundamental question of
541
00:32:27,811 --> 00:32:30,031
regulation of the funeral sector.
542
00:32:31,631 --> 00:32:36,861
I'm very lucky to live in Victoria,
where we have a fully state based
543
00:32:37,231 --> 00:32:42,811
cemeteries and crematorium organizations,
so we don't have private cemeteries or
544
00:32:42,811 --> 00:32:48,861
private crematorium, which is a big,
you know, there's a big debate about
545
00:32:48,861 --> 00:32:52,871
this, but I, I think fundamentally
that death is a death, appropriate
546
00:32:52,871 --> 00:32:56,601
death care is a human right, and
therefore it should be a public service.
547
00:32:56,661 --> 00:33:00,621
It shouldn't be something that,
you know, is divided by private.
548
00:33:02,086 --> 00:33:04,106
entities and like, you know,
people disagree with me about
549
00:33:04,106 --> 00:33:06,186
this and we can have that debate.
550
00:33:06,826 --> 00:33:10,016
But for the regulation of the funeral
sector, I think there needs to be more
551
00:33:10,016 --> 00:33:13,686
fundamentally kind of, work within
the department of health, right.
552
00:33:13,746 --> 00:33:17,816
And trying to get them to recognize
funeral directors as part of the
553
00:33:17,816 --> 00:33:20,326
health provision services, because
I think that's the way forward.
554
00:33:20,866 --> 00:33:24,556
You know, it's not enough that the
business council of Australia or
555
00:33:24,566 --> 00:33:25,956
kind of it's an industry led thing.
556
00:33:25,956 --> 00:33:28,156
I think it has to be part of
an understanding that's part
557
00:33:28,156 --> 00:33:29,266
of human health and welfare.
558
00:33:30,006 --> 00:33:30,316
Yeah.
559
00:33:32,441 --> 00:33:36,051
Catherine: And what other advances
have you seen during your time, Hannah?
560
00:33:36,351 --> 00:33:40,981
I'm sure that you know, the impacts
of COVID you've probably done work
561
00:33:40,981 --> 00:33:42,741
on, as you mentioned previously.
562
00:33:43,101 --> 00:33:48,211
What have you seen sort of with,
In Australia or overseas, the
563
00:33:48,211 --> 00:33:54,251
developments that have happened
post that COVID, you know, pandemic.
564
00:33:54,341 --> 00:33:55,981
COVID is like,
565
00:33:57,331 --> 00:33:58,191
Hannah: COVID is interesting.
566
00:33:58,211 --> 00:34:03,421
Difficult and interesting because a
lot of the concern and the interest was
567
00:34:03,431 --> 00:34:05,331
like, well, is this going to be a trend?
568
00:34:05,371 --> 00:34:08,071
Is this going to stay with
us or is it not right?
569
00:34:08,081 --> 00:34:11,121
Like, you know, oh, are we going
to have small funerals forever?
570
00:34:11,671 --> 00:34:13,841
Are we going to have
funeral streaming forever?
571
00:34:14,241 --> 00:34:15,041
That sort of thing.
572
00:34:15,181 --> 00:34:20,561
And I, I don't necessarily think we've
seen those kind of changes to Australian
573
00:34:20,561 --> 00:34:27,321
death culture, or indeed to UK or American
overseas death culture in some ways.
574
00:34:27,341 --> 00:34:31,611
I think potentially in Japan you
have seen the rise of really small
575
00:34:31,611 --> 00:34:33,691
macro funerals with just the family.
576
00:34:33,961 --> 00:34:35,231
That's certainly a trend.
577
00:34:35,321 --> 00:34:39,121
But in Australia, I think the more
fundamental transformation has
578
00:34:39,151 --> 00:34:43,621
been, mean, it's, it's, COVID has
contributed to this, but it's been
579
00:34:43,621 --> 00:34:45,871
a far more long, long lasting trend.
580
00:34:45,881 --> 00:34:49,991
And that's basically just the shift
towards personalization personalization
581
00:34:49,991 --> 00:34:53,661
of the funeral, personalization
of the handling of the remains.
582
00:34:54,101 --> 00:34:57,911
So, you know, people wanting
very specific, bespoke
583
00:34:58,371 --> 00:35:00,441
celebrations of life or funerals.
584
00:35:00,861 --> 00:35:03,061
And increasingly more and
more you see that across.
585
00:35:03,416 --> 00:35:07,876
Different demographic groups in Australia
potentially COVID has contributed to
586
00:35:07,876 --> 00:35:12,006
that by kind of because people couldn't
do what they thought was the standard
587
00:35:12,006 --> 00:35:13,936
or conventional funeral during COVID.
588
00:35:14,266 --> 00:35:17,496
They had to be by force of
circumstance to be more creative.
589
00:35:17,796 --> 00:35:22,666
And now there's no circumstance
necessarily, but, uh, People are
590
00:35:22,666 --> 00:35:26,056
still kind of reaching out to do
those more creative things at the
591
00:35:26,056 --> 00:35:29,446
funeral and moving away potentially
from the kind of cultural scripts or
592
00:35:29,446 --> 00:35:32,276
religious scripts they've inherited
about what they're supposed to do.
593
00:35:32,496 --> 00:35:36,416
So I think that's really fascinating as
a, as a trend and also probably something
594
00:35:36,416 --> 00:35:40,316
that, to be honest with you, that, you
know, not just Australia, but probably
595
00:35:40,336 --> 00:35:44,860
Melbourne, Victoria leads the way in
globally actually because of, because
596
00:35:44,860 --> 00:35:49,357
of our history with celebrancy and, and
these kinds of other developments in,
597
00:35:49,447 --> 00:35:51,087
in history of funerals in Australia.
598
00:35:52,502 --> 00:35:52,792
Catherine: So tell
599
00:35:52,792 --> 00:35:53,132
Hannah: me a little
600
00:35:53,132 --> 00:35:56,992
Catherine: bit about why Melbourne
and Victoria are leading the way.
601
00:35:56,992 --> 00:35:59,592
Hannah: Sorry.
602
00:36:01,402 --> 00:36:05,792
Well, Australia is interesting in
that, When we think about the invasion
603
00:36:05,802 --> 00:36:10,962
and colonization of Australia, uh,
obviously that very much brought
604
00:36:10,982 --> 00:36:13,132
the Christian church to our shores.
605
00:36:13,582 --> 00:36:17,412
But in the kind of early colony,
there was not a huge number of, there
606
00:36:17,412 --> 00:36:18,732
weren't a huge number of priests.
607
00:36:19,202 --> 00:36:23,052
So we already can kind of, from
early colonial era, this kind of
608
00:36:23,082 --> 00:36:27,912
tradition, I suppose, begin to emerge
of lay people conducting funerals non
609
00:36:27,912 --> 00:36:28,932
ordained people conducting funerals.
610
00:36:29,657 --> 00:36:35,077
And a kind of, I suppose, because of
the composition of early settlers as
611
00:36:35,077 --> 00:36:39,517
well, a kind of a suspicion of church
authority and a kind of that classic
612
00:36:39,577 --> 00:36:43,997
Australian pragmatic way of doing
things, which I think continues to today.
613
00:36:45,017 --> 00:36:49,977
And then, you know, we've always been
in comparison, at least to the UK and
614
00:36:49,977 --> 00:36:56,677
the US, a country in which religion has
played a slightly diminished role in
615
00:36:56,677 --> 00:37:01,157
public life and in many ways, I think,
which is not to say that we're necessarily
616
00:37:01,167 --> 00:37:04,117
more atheistic or more non religious.
617
00:37:04,477 --> 00:37:08,877
But even if the kind of statistics are
quite similar for the UK and Australia.
618
00:37:09,327 --> 00:37:14,897
Religion has played perhaps less of a
role in our ceremonies, our rituals and
619
00:37:14,907 --> 00:37:18,027
certainly in public life and the, you
know, expression of religious religion
620
00:37:18,027 --> 00:37:22,257
by political leaders, for example,
is very distinct from say the U S
621
00:37:22,657 --> 00:37:24,757
which is I think an outline example.
622
00:37:25,117 --> 00:37:29,657
But then we had this moment in the
kind of 1970s where the attorney
623
00:37:29,657 --> 00:37:33,452
general Lionel Murphy and, uh, Whitlam.
624
00:37:33,832 --> 00:37:34,792
I believe he was under Whitlam.
625
00:37:35,212 --> 00:37:40,432
Uh, he made this move, which
was to see the create to create
626
00:37:40,492 --> 00:37:41,732
kind of, secular celebrants.
627
00:37:42,362 --> 00:37:45,542
So up until that moment, one
had to be ordained as a member
628
00:37:45,542 --> 00:37:48,552
of a religious organization in
order to marry people, right?
629
00:37:48,552 --> 00:37:51,882
So you had to kind of get married
through the church, the temple,
630
00:37:51,882 --> 00:37:52,812
to the mosque, whatever it was.
631
00:37:53,342 --> 00:37:59,942
And he made a decision to invest that
power in people who were members of the
632
00:37:59,942 --> 00:38:04,392
public, lay people, which in some ways
felt like a very small move, right?
633
00:38:04,432 --> 00:38:05,142
And you're like, Oh, okay.
634
00:38:05,182 --> 00:38:08,252
This is, you know, obviously, but
when you think about it, this is like
635
00:38:08,272 --> 00:38:14,032
investing ritual power in, in people
outside religion in Australian life.
636
00:38:14,282 --> 00:38:17,392
And I think also that, you
know, the first person that he.
637
00:38:18,562 --> 00:38:24,212
appointed was a young unmarried woman,
or, you know, which is an extraordinary
638
00:38:24,212 --> 00:38:28,902
shift from like, what was a predominantly
men in the Christian church, being the
639
00:38:28,902 --> 00:38:32,312
ones that could marry people and give
last rites to a young unmarried woman.
640
00:38:32,312 --> 00:38:36,772
And I think one of the first
people he also appointed was an
641
00:38:36,772 --> 00:38:38,152
Indigenous Australian person as well.
642
00:38:38,612 --> 00:38:38,772
So.
643
00:38:39,497 --> 00:38:42,617
All of a sudden you had this kind
of like fundamental life ritual, the
644
00:38:42,617 --> 00:38:46,747
wedding ceremony, being conducted
by people who are not connected
645
00:38:46,747 --> 00:38:47,877
to any religious tradition.
646
00:38:48,297 --> 00:38:50,417
That meant you don't have to get
married in a church, you could
647
00:38:50,417 --> 00:38:51,937
get married anywhere, right?
648
00:38:51,977 --> 00:38:56,717
And not just, you know, not just at Town
Hall now, you could also get married,
649
00:38:56,987 --> 00:38:58,367
you know, at the park, whatever it was.
650
00:38:58,887 --> 00:39:04,382
And then more and more we started to see
this kind of slowly but surely this, you
651
00:39:04,382 --> 00:39:07,482
know, as people did people's weddings
and they said, Oh, you know, we'd love to
652
00:39:07,482 --> 00:39:08,982
get the same celebrant to do the funeral.
653
00:39:09,602 --> 00:39:09,862
Right.
654
00:39:09,872 --> 00:39:16,602
So celebrancy, secular celebrancy kind
of took off in Australia and in the,
655
00:39:16,782 --> 00:39:20,032
in the wedding sector predominantly,
and then slowly, slowly moved his way
656
00:39:20,032 --> 00:39:23,342
over to the funeral sector with some
controversies and, you know, there's lots
657
00:39:23,342 --> 00:39:25,107
of different, kind of subplots there.
658
00:39:25,607 --> 00:39:28,757
And so we had our funerals kind
of being therefore presided over
659
00:39:28,947 --> 00:39:30,967
by people who are not religious.
660
00:39:31,257 --> 00:39:34,747
And that was a major kind of contribution
to this kind of seeing of like.
661
00:39:35,297 --> 00:39:37,227
the rise of a kind of a secular funeral.
662
00:39:37,237 --> 00:39:41,397
So, I was on a panel the other day
or a talk the other day and people
663
00:39:41,397 --> 00:39:44,067
were talking about, well, like, oh,
Australians don't really have any death
664
00:39:44,067 --> 00:39:48,397
culture or we white Australians, white
people, we don't want to do Christianity.
665
00:39:48,397 --> 00:39:49,197
We have nothing.
666
00:39:49,197 --> 00:39:50,007
We have no rituals.
667
00:39:50,007 --> 00:39:50,867
We have no traditions.
668
00:39:50,877 --> 00:39:52,167
Like we're really ritually bereft.
669
00:39:52,167 --> 00:39:53,667
And I was like, hang on a second.
670
00:39:53,667 --> 00:39:55,227
We have death culture.
671
00:39:55,277 --> 00:39:57,507
It's just that you don't recognize it.
672
00:39:58,132 --> 00:40:02,122
as particularly death
culture, like part of us.
673
00:40:02,132 --> 00:40:04,942
So part of Australian, like contemporary
Australian death culture is the
674
00:40:04,942 --> 00:40:07,562
powerpoint and the music, right?
675
00:40:07,562 --> 00:40:12,102
This is also fundamentally, like, if
you have to recreate a funeral ceremony
676
00:40:12,102 --> 00:40:15,647
that it's a non religious funeral
ceremony, Okay, what are the readings?
677
00:40:15,647 --> 00:40:16,887
What are the rituals that you do?
678
00:40:17,197 --> 00:40:20,977
And the things that we've kind of
landed on, this idea of a slideshow,
679
00:40:21,137 --> 00:40:27,647
PowerPoint of photos, playing sad songs,
getting people to cry, giving eulogies.
680
00:40:27,847 --> 00:40:30,927
This is all part of like Australian
ritual and Australian death culture
681
00:40:31,237 --> 00:40:32,267
about what our funerals are.
682
00:40:32,887 --> 00:40:37,277
And that kind of format for a kind
of secular funeral is actually
683
00:40:37,287 --> 00:40:39,947
really world leading in many ways.
684
00:40:39,957 --> 00:40:44,227
So, I mean, celibacy, funeral celibacy
in particular in Victoria as well.
685
00:40:44,442 --> 00:40:48,142
pretty well advanced and Stephanie
Longmuir who's a local celebrant
686
00:40:48,392 --> 00:40:50,182
here in Victoria in Melbourne.
687
00:40:50,572 --> 00:40:55,112
She is really the keeper of this
knowledge of this wisdom of of Australian
688
00:40:55,112 --> 00:40:57,212
death culture that I'm drawing on.
689
00:40:57,262 --> 00:41:00,672
But you know, so we've always been,
if you compare that say to the UK
690
00:41:00,692 --> 00:41:04,942
where they have a movement for secular
funerals, but it's, it's, it's like
691
00:41:04,942 --> 00:41:08,402
kind of inflected through this movement,
which is the British humanist movement.
692
00:41:09,232 --> 00:41:12,812
And British humanism is very
much like church without the God.
693
00:41:13,242 --> 00:41:16,992
And it's, there's a kind of sense
in which people are trying to
694
00:41:16,992 --> 00:41:21,832
reproduce religious funeral ceremonies
for secular or humanistic means.
695
00:41:22,647 --> 00:41:25,397
We don't really have that in Australia
because we don't really feel we need it.
696
00:41:25,397 --> 00:41:29,137
We already have like a secular
movement for our rituals.
697
00:41:29,257 --> 00:41:32,007
And so this idea that, oh,
is this a humanist funeral?
698
00:41:32,087 --> 00:41:32,537
I don't know.
699
00:41:32,707 --> 00:41:33,517
It's just a funeral.
700
00:41:33,517 --> 00:41:34,387
We're just getting together.
701
00:41:34,417 --> 00:41:35,877
Like we know how to do this.
702
00:41:36,997 --> 00:41:37,947
That is the model.
703
00:41:38,377 --> 00:41:39,617
That is our funeral culture.
704
00:41:40,197 --> 00:41:43,767
And that is something that is very
distinct and kind of really, we
705
00:41:43,767 --> 00:41:47,967
don't recognize it, but is part of
like the contemporary Australian.
706
00:41:49,317 --> 00:41:52,727
That I think we should be proud
of, or at least reflect upon.
707
00:41:53,207 --> 00:41:55,307
And then I suppose what I've
been interested in more recently
708
00:41:55,307 --> 00:41:59,557
is, is how that model as well as
being increasingly influenced by.
709
00:42:00,312 --> 00:42:02,732
the multicultural diversity
of Australia, right?
710
00:42:02,772 --> 00:42:06,462
And the adoption of other
rituals and borrowings into it.
711
00:42:07,362 --> 00:42:10,712
But it is certainly something that's
particularly Australian, and I think
712
00:42:10,712 --> 00:42:14,282
particularly concentrated in Victoria
and Melbourne because of celibacy.
713
00:42:14,422 --> 00:42:14,772
Yeah.
714
00:42:14,772 --> 00:42:16,092
It's
715
00:42:16,092 --> 00:42:17,412
Catherine: a
716
00:42:17,412 --> 00:42:18,732
Hannah: long
717
00:42:20,272 --> 00:42:20,862
Catherine: story.
718
00:42:21,912 --> 00:42:24,412
And so it was, it was, it's interesting
because as you were talking, I'm
719
00:42:24,412 --> 00:42:28,752
like, yep, that actually relates to
all of the funerals I've been to, you
720
00:42:28,752 --> 00:42:33,202
know, that inclusion of those rituals
721
00:42:33,202 --> 00:42:35,162
Hannah: as part of the service.
722
00:42:35,322 --> 00:42:35,572
Yeah.
723
00:42:35,572 --> 00:42:39,312
Of course we're going to have a side
show of photos and like, of course we're
724
00:42:39,312 --> 00:42:40,992
going to have eulogies about the dead.
725
00:42:40,992 --> 00:42:44,362
And I think it's partly like,
you know, the goldfish is
726
00:42:44,362 --> 00:42:45,692
the last to discover water.
727
00:42:45,692 --> 00:42:50,342
It's like, people don't realize
how particular those things are.
728
00:42:50,817 --> 00:42:52,527
to Australian.
729
00:42:53,027 --> 00:42:57,217
I'm not to say that like people in the
US or Canada or the UK don't do these
730
00:42:57,227 --> 00:43:02,717
things but that like in some ways they
really developed this model and a lot of
731
00:43:02,717 --> 00:43:04,397
this is actually like early celebrants.
732
00:43:05,507 --> 00:43:06,707
In Australia developed this model.
733
00:43:06,707 --> 00:43:11,237
There's a very quite famous Times
magazine article from the eighties
734
00:43:11,237 --> 00:43:14,837
or something that has like the
celebrants, like the future of funerals.
735
00:43:14,837 --> 00:43:21,007
Like, like this kind of American reaction
to Australian and New Zealanders.
736
00:43:21,007 --> 00:43:25,277
Just kind of going at it with
non-religious funeral and
737
00:43:25,277 --> 00:43:27,167
wedding celebr and being, wow.
738
00:43:28,122 --> 00:43:28,412
Yeah.
739
00:43:28,417 --> 00:43:28,757
Yeah.
740
00:43:28,757 --> 00:43:29,837
I'd love to see that.
741
00:43:30,197 --> 00:43:31,277
I've gotta dig it up somewhere.
742
00:43:31,487 --> 00:43:33,372
It's but it's like this relic of like.
743
00:43:34,237 --> 00:43:37,117
example of how we were being
different and we don't kind
744
00:43:37,117 --> 00:43:39,017
of notice it or recognize it.
745
00:43:39,157 --> 00:43:39,457
Yeah.
746
00:43:40,487 --> 00:43:41,317
Catherine: That's amazing.
747
00:43:41,707 --> 00:43:45,927
And so you've coined a term and
I'm not sure whether you've,
748
00:43:45,947 --> 00:43:48,427
it's your term, but buddhish.
749
00:43:49,487 --> 00:43:50,047
Yeah.
750
00:43:50,757 --> 00:43:52,017
Tell me about that Hannah.
751
00:43:53,107 --> 00:43:54,757
Hannah: Well, this very
much relates actually.
752
00:43:55,277 --> 00:44:01,407
So buddhish is a term that reflects the
ways in which buddhists Buddhism has
753
00:44:01,407 --> 00:44:07,547
become a source of cultural borrowing and
inspiration for many people in Australia
754
00:44:07,547 --> 00:44:12,027
and around the world without themselves
necessarily seeing themselves as Buddhist.
755
00:44:12,157 --> 00:44:16,357
Maybe it's because they've never
really been to, you know, a temple
756
00:44:16,357 --> 00:44:18,887
or joined a Buddhist organization.
757
00:44:19,407 --> 00:44:23,677
Maybe they've never talked to a monastic,
you know, they don't necessarily feel
758
00:44:23,677 --> 00:44:25,417
that they themselves are Buddhist.
759
00:44:25,417 --> 00:44:29,807
However, they might be influenced by
Buddhism in some way, whether that's.
760
00:44:30,832 --> 00:44:35,532
you know, reading Buddhist texts
popular Buddhist, there's a lot of
761
00:44:35,532 --> 00:44:39,192
popular writing, popular writing
about, about death in Buddhism.
762
00:44:39,532 --> 00:44:43,762
Or, you know, even just having kind of
warm and fuzzy feelings about Buddhism
763
00:44:43,762 --> 00:44:45,612
and its contributions to the world.
764
00:44:45,992 --> 00:44:49,662
And what we're kind of seeing through this
research project is that there's kind of
765
00:44:49,662 --> 00:44:56,937
a Buddhist death style that is emerging
in Australia, in the sense that in kind of
766
00:44:56,937 --> 00:45:05,187
searching for ways to negotiate mortality,
end of life, aging, where people may have
767
00:45:05,187 --> 00:45:08,607
turned to Christianity in the past, or
are still influenced by Christianity,
768
00:45:09,117 --> 00:45:13,487
they're now increasingly turning towards
Buddhism and Buddhist kind of texts.
769
00:45:14,017 --> 00:45:19,262
And, It's not meant to kind of
suggest that it's not meant to kind
770
00:45:19,262 --> 00:45:22,302
of suggest that this is Buddhism, but
it's kind of meant to suggest that
771
00:45:22,382 --> 00:45:27,202
perhaps Buddhism has as significant a
cultural influence in Australian Deaf
772
00:45:27,682 --> 00:45:32,352
culture as Christianity once had, or
perhaps even is moving towards that.
773
00:45:33,652 --> 00:45:39,022
And we see it in a huge range of
phenomenon from kind of, you know,
774
00:45:39,082 --> 00:45:46,632
lighting incense and Buddhist readings
at funerals to mindfulness and meditation
775
00:45:47,032 --> 00:45:53,672
being prescribed by the Australian
palliative care association, or, you
776
00:45:53,672 --> 00:45:58,512
know, Australian medical association
around kind of end of life and dying,
777
00:45:58,522 --> 00:46:02,332
or all of these kinds of different ways
that Buddhist concepts have made it into.
778
00:46:03,442 --> 00:46:04,292
Australian death culture.
779
00:46:05,262 --> 00:46:06,892
Catherine: That's fascinating.
780
00:46:07,442 --> 00:46:11,932
Like, and you've also recently,
you've released two books.
781
00:46:12,962 --> 00:46:13,482
Hannah: Apparently,
782
00:46:13,512 --> 00:46:13,792
Catherine: yeah.
783
00:46:14,662 --> 00:46:14,692
One,
784
00:46:17,302 --> 00:46:20,592
one specifically focused on, on this.
785
00:46:21,472 --> 00:46:26,562
Hannah: The first book is about death
in Japan when death falls apart.
786
00:46:26,672 --> 00:46:33,232
And that's very much about the question
of, that's very much about the question
787
00:46:33,232 --> 00:46:36,802
of like, what happens when people reject.
788
00:46:37,432 --> 00:46:42,162
Or decide not to continue the
religious tradition of death and dying.
789
00:46:42,602 --> 00:46:43,572
As has happened in Japan.
790
00:46:43,572 --> 00:46:47,702
So Japan, I mean, you know, Japan in
many ways is, is slightly, you know,
791
00:46:47,782 --> 00:46:48,982
it's always kind of a bellwether.
792
00:46:49,122 --> 00:46:53,822
So for Australia, in the sense that it's
more aging, much more of an aging society,
793
00:46:53,822 --> 00:46:57,612
less children, Australia's heading
towards that, you know, secularizing,
794
00:46:57,612 --> 00:46:58,782
Australia's heading towards that.
795
00:46:59,882 --> 00:47:02,352
And there's kind of a problem that's
been created where people don't
796
00:47:02,362 --> 00:47:05,662
really want to do the religious
rituals that they've inherited.
797
00:47:06,307 --> 00:47:07,357
But oh no, what do we do now?
798
00:47:08,087 --> 00:47:11,507
Which is a similar problem, I think,
that many people in Australia are facing.
799
00:47:12,097 --> 00:47:15,837
But I'm currently working on
a book about Australian death
800
00:47:15,837 --> 00:47:18,867
culture, of which Buddhism and
Buddhishness will be a part of it.
801
00:47:18,877 --> 00:47:23,217
It's one of those labors
of love that continues on.
802
00:47:23,217 --> 00:47:27,957
I, yeah, try to find the right way to tell
that story, I suppose, is the, is always
803
00:47:27,967 --> 00:47:29,507
the challenge, as you would know, yeah.
804
00:47:31,162 --> 00:47:31,782
Catherine: It is.
805
00:47:32,062 --> 00:47:36,122
And, and tell me, how
have you seen technology?
806
00:47:36,552 --> 00:47:40,862
impact, you know, over your
research period, what changes
807
00:47:40,862 --> 00:47:44,632
have you seen technology play
in the death care industry?
808
00:47:45,062 --> 00:47:51,132
You know, we've seen QR codes being
put on gravestones, uh, that you can
809
00:47:51,132 --> 00:47:55,652
actually, you know, scan and it can
tell you a story about those people who
810
00:47:55,882 --> 00:47:58,452
have you know, died and interred there.
811
00:47:58,882 --> 00:48:01,602
What other sort of developments
have you seen, Hannah?
812
00:48:03,232 --> 00:48:08,362
Hannah: So, I mean, I suppose I take a
pretty long, long view of technology,
813
00:48:08,362 --> 00:48:13,602
which is to say that like, look,
everything from a grave to a coffin, these
814
00:48:13,602 --> 00:48:15,482
are all technologies in some ways, right?
815
00:48:15,482 --> 00:48:19,982
These are all human ingenuity inventions
that we have used to manage death.
816
00:48:20,052 --> 00:48:26,352
And that goes back to coffins and,
you know, through to AI, right?
817
00:48:26,462 --> 00:48:28,962
And so, I mean, QR codes are a
great example because it's like
818
00:48:28,962 --> 00:48:30,132
everything old is new again.
819
00:48:30,132 --> 00:48:32,732
I mean, QR codes were
invented in the 1990s.
820
00:48:33,257 --> 00:48:36,737
and all of a sudden, like we, when
we first started in the part of the
821
00:48:36,737 --> 00:48:41,427
death tech team writing about QR
codes, we thought, you know, Oh,
822
00:48:41,427 --> 00:48:44,257
these are the things that like a few
people have suggested we put them on
823
00:48:44,257 --> 00:48:46,037
graves, but no one really uses them.
824
00:48:46,037 --> 00:48:47,777
No one really knows what they are.
825
00:48:48,477 --> 00:48:49,637
Welcome to COVID.
826
00:48:49,677 --> 00:48:53,687
And like, if COVID has left us
with this one thing, it is the
827
00:48:53,687 --> 00:48:56,417
rise of the QR code everywhere.
828
00:48:57,057 --> 00:48:57,597
And they're great.
829
00:48:57,617 --> 00:48:58,337
Why would you not, you know?
830
00:48:58,867 --> 00:48:59,537
But.
831
00:49:00,492 --> 00:49:02,412
So I think in a way it's kind
of interesting to say that, you
832
00:49:02,412 --> 00:49:06,322
know, new technologies, I mean,
this is the thing about religion
833
00:49:06,372 --> 00:49:07,462
and it's thinking about death.
834
00:49:07,872 --> 00:49:14,822
is that religions and cultures will
always try and make use of the most
835
00:49:14,822 --> 00:49:19,722
recent technologies to tell their story,
to transform their message, right?
836
00:49:20,302 --> 00:49:24,292
You know, whether that latest
technology is the printed book or
837
00:49:24,312 --> 00:49:27,062
it's, you know, robotics, for example.
838
00:49:27,712 --> 00:49:33,577
I think what's important to say
is that a lot of those, uh, A
839
00:49:33,577 --> 00:49:37,787
lot of those experimentations
are ultimately unsuccessful.
840
00:49:37,997 --> 00:49:41,647
So we tend to actually say and you
know, with the death tech team at
841
00:49:41,647 --> 00:49:46,727
Melbourne uni, we've kind of had this
catalog of like dead death technologies.
842
00:49:47,047 --> 00:49:51,617
So death technologies that like have
failed or given up or been abandoned
843
00:49:51,627 --> 00:49:55,377
or didn't work as many more of them
than the ones that have succeeded.
844
00:49:55,477 --> 00:49:55,897
Right.
845
00:49:56,237 --> 00:49:59,447
So, you know, of the ones that
have succeeded, obviously things
846
00:49:59,447 --> 00:50:02,367
like PowerPoint and audio visual.
847
00:50:02,572 --> 00:50:07,182
And, you know, live streaming are the ones
that come to mind most recently for, for
848
00:50:07,192 --> 00:50:13,322
funerals, but also probably the most kind
of, the most, uh, perhaps energetic or
849
00:50:13,342 --> 00:50:18,272
most interesting kind of new developments
in this area have been around actually
850
00:50:18,282 --> 00:50:20,212
the disposal of human remains, right?
851
00:50:20,212 --> 00:50:24,332
And new ways to handle human remains,
whether that be through I think
852
00:50:24,352 --> 00:50:29,202
alkaline hydrolysis is a great
example, but also human composting and.
853
00:50:29,692 --> 00:50:33,912
Things like living legacy, the
treatment of ashes, those kind of, that
854
00:50:33,912 --> 00:50:37,002
sphere of technological development
has already also really popped off
855
00:50:37,002 --> 00:50:38,592
in the last kind of 10 to 20 years.
856
00:50:39,712 --> 00:50:41,862
And again, with mixed results, like
some of them haven't been taken
857
00:50:41,862 --> 00:50:43,092
up and haven't been successful.
858
00:50:43,612 --> 00:50:47,702
But it's a really interesting kind
of new sphere because it's possibly
859
00:50:47,702 --> 00:50:52,262
even more, you know, it's even more
backstage and more taboo in some ways.
860
00:50:52,262 --> 00:50:56,152
Like these are not things that most people
would necessarily think about when they
861
00:50:56,582 --> 00:50:58,132
think about death and dying or funerals.
862
00:50:59,472 --> 00:51:03,922
Catherine: And Have you done anything
to prepare for your own death, Hannah?
863
00:51:05,832 --> 00:51:11,832
Hannah: It's so funny you ask this
because like I have this like strange
864
00:51:11,832 --> 00:51:15,922
desire to interview death studies
researchers about like their plans and
865
00:51:15,922 --> 00:51:18,207
like just get a survey of what they want.
866
00:51:18,237 --> 00:51:22,107
Because I think the interesting
thing actually is that for a lot
867
00:51:22,107 --> 00:51:26,257
of death studies researchers, where
they kind of land is like, I don't
868
00:51:26,257 --> 00:51:30,317
really care at the end of the day,
which is a, an odd thing to come to.
869
00:51:31,077 --> 00:51:35,347
But I think it's because a lot of
the kind of fear or uncertainty has
870
00:51:35,347 --> 00:51:36,627
been entirely removed from them.
871
00:51:37,122 --> 00:51:42,422
it, and therefore it's like kind of
comfortable with whatever happens.
872
00:51:42,442 --> 00:51:45,722
Now, I mean, that comes from me, which I
have a particularly, I suppose, atheistic,
873
00:51:45,782 --> 00:51:47,442
Buddhist perspective on all of it.
874
00:51:47,922 --> 00:51:51,622
So I, I mean, everyone, I think
everyone in my family knows, which
875
00:51:51,622 --> 00:51:55,422
is that I would want my, I'm an organ
donor, sign up as an organ donor.
876
00:51:55,492 --> 00:51:57,992
So if possible, you know,
take all of the organs.
877
00:51:58,722 --> 00:52:04,772
Up until a little while ago, I was kind
of thinking about donation to anatomy
878
00:52:04,772 --> 00:52:08,942
schools, but then I started to teach
medical students as part of my job and
879
00:52:08,942 --> 00:52:14,552
I was like, I dunno, , I know some of
these kids, like this would be weird.
880
00:52:15,062 --> 00:52:17,822
So not that . But yeah, I'd
like to be an organ Don.
881
00:52:18,272 --> 00:52:23,862
And then ideally to be cremated, weirdly
enough, working in the crematorium.
882
00:52:23,982 --> 00:52:26,932
This is actually quite specific,
but, shane, who works in the
883
00:52:26,932 --> 00:52:31,612
crematorium in Lilydale, is one of
the nicest human beings in the world.
884
00:52:31,752 --> 00:52:32,812
Uh, lovely.
885
00:52:33,212 --> 00:52:39,332
And I had this weird moment where I, I
kind of shook his hand and said, look,
886
00:52:39,642 --> 00:52:42,432
you're still working here when I die.
887
00:52:43,002 --> 00:52:46,402
I'd like you to cremate me,
which is kind of a bizarre
888
00:52:46,402 --> 00:52:53,597
and interesting and incredible
thing to like, know that, right?
889
00:52:53,647 --> 00:52:56,827
To like, yeah, this is
the person I know them.
890
00:52:57,057 --> 00:53:00,697
I've had a meal with them
that I consider them a mate.
891
00:53:00,707 --> 00:53:02,787
Like this is the person
that I want to cremate me.
892
00:53:02,787 --> 00:53:05,687
But then it struck me also, it's
like an incredibly bizarre thing
893
00:53:05,697 --> 00:53:09,397
about contemporary modern life that
we don't know who that is, right?
894
00:53:09,427 --> 00:53:12,487
Like that we actually don't know
who these people are, who will
895
00:53:12,497 --> 00:53:14,107
be responsible for burying us.
896
00:53:16,027 --> 00:53:18,377
But as he said, he's like,
wow, I think you'll outlive me.
897
00:53:18,387 --> 00:53:22,267
So I have to find someone
to cremate me, hopefully.
898
00:53:22,837 --> 00:53:28,557
And yeah, and then I don't really care,
which sounds odd, but that's probably
899
00:53:28,557 --> 00:53:33,917
inflected by my own religious, you
know, background and inclinations,
900
00:53:33,917 --> 00:53:35,077
which is, I don't think I'll be there.
901
00:53:35,227 --> 00:53:39,097
Like I don't, I don't
mind what happens to me.
902
00:53:39,097 --> 00:53:40,687
I hope people have really good food.
903
00:53:41,492 --> 00:53:43,342
and wine at the funeral.
904
00:53:43,482 --> 00:53:44,582
That's very important.
905
00:53:44,852 --> 00:53:50,202
But other than that, you know, hopefully
my body, my worldly body can be as much
906
00:53:50,202 --> 00:53:51,882
good use to as many people as possible.
907
00:53:52,002 --> 00:53:52,632
That's about it.
908
00:53:53,982 --> 00:53:57,392
Catherine: Now, I know you're very
particular about food and wine, Hannah.
909
00:53:57,392 --> 00:54:02,292
I'm surprised that you haven't
written down what the list of, you
910
00:54:02,292 --> 00:54:07,272
know, wine should be available and
the cheeses that should be there.
911
00:54:07,572 --> 00:54:07,782
This
912
00:54:07,782 --> 00:54:08,662
Hannah: is what you need to do, Kath.
913
00:54:08,662 --> 00:54:13,242
You have to cultivate good friends
who you trust the food selection
914
00:54:13,242 --> 00:54:15,432
of, to make that decision for you.
915
00:54:15,512 --> 00:54:18,002
Cause I mean, that's all I
really care about is like that
916
00:54:18,002 --> 00:54:19,292
there is good food and wine.
917
00:54:19,912 --> 00:54:23,462
This is my belief about funerals is
that there should be good food and wine.
918
00:54:23,822 --> 00:54:28,312
I once had this kind of argument with
this death doula teacher who was saying
919
00:54:28,312 --> 00:54:30,282
that like, Oh, you know, grief is so hard.
920
00:54:30,282 --> 00:54:32,462
And then at the funeral, like
no one really wants to eat.
921
00:54:32,532 --> 00:54:37,982
They're just being really like, I was
like, Oh my God, like, no, like good food
922
00:54:38,192 --> 00:54:39,792
and wine and what is what it's all about.
923
00:54:39,872 --> 00:54:41,672
And that's the one thing I kind of,
924
00:54:44,162 --> 00:54:48,192
Catherine: It's so funny that you
say that because, uh, it's really
925
00:54:48,462 --> 00:54:53,642
very few, very rare places now
that you still get sandwich points.
926
00:54:53,812 --> 00:54:57,262
Hannah: Oh, I'm so I was on radio
the other day and there was this
927
00:54:57,502 --> 00:55:01,392
big argument because I was on like
seven, seven, four callback and.
928
00:55:01,967 --> 00:55:03,917
Michelle, who's the host, was
like, oh, I have this deep
929
00:55:03,917 --> 00:55:06,287
love for like, bad sandwiches.
930
00:55:06,327 --> 00:55:07,947
And I was rallying against it.
931
00:55:07,947 --> 00:55:11,997
I was like, this is, like, why is it
when we have a funeral, it's like,
932
00:55:11,997 --> 00:55:13,897
you have to have terrible sandwiches.
933
00:55:13,937 --> 00:55:17,267
It seems like a punishment
after everything you have
934
00:55:17,267 --> 00:55:18,437
to go through that day.
935
00:55:18,687 --> 00:55:22,397
Here is the like, bad catering.
936
00:55:24,837 --> 00:55:25,927
Food is really interesting.
937
00:55:25,927 --> 00:55:29,347
I think, actually, I have a
new research project I'm doing
938
00:55:29,347 --> 00:55:31,517
about it's called feeding grief.
939
00:55:31,832 --> 00:55:35,692
And it is about the role that
food plays in, in death and dying,
940
00:55:35,692 --> 00:55:38,862
which I think is, it's also just
a nice way to get into it, right.
941
00:55:38,872 --> 00:55:39,712
Into this topic.
942
00:55:39,792 --> 00:55:43,312
But you know, there's a lot of, there's,
you know, a lot of traditions also, and,
943
00:55:43,322 --> 00:55:48,532
and particularly like, traditions coming
out of India and, and, and Sikhism, for
944
00:55:48,532 --> 00:55:52,572
example, where it's like, you know, when
someone dies, it's, it's kind of a, uh, an
945
00:55:52,582 --> 00:55:54,632
obligation that you hand out food, right.
946
00:55:54,632 --> 00:55:58,042
That you do charitable acts
on behalf of that person.
947
00:55:58,122 --> 00:56:02,997
Or, uh, you know, funeral feasts can
often be extraordinary affairs with,
948
00:56:03,037 --> 00:56:06,217
you know, many hundreds of people
that you feed and you look after.
949
00:56:06,737 --> 00:56:09,717
And of course we have our own food
traditions in Australia, right?
950
00:56:09,757 --> 00:56:14,952
About, you know, You know, if your friend
dies or, you know, neighbor dies, like one
951
00:56:14,952 --> 00:56:17,682
of the first things we do is like lasagna.
952
00:56:17,682 --> 00:56:19,782
Like, it's like, there
953
00:56:19,782 --> 00:56:20,162
Catherine: is a capital.
954
00:56:20,692 --> 00:56:22,312
Mine's chicken soup, you know.
955
00:56:22,962 --> 00:56:26,672
Hannah: Yeah, so, which is kind of,
you think, oh, this is pretty normal.
956
00:56:26,722 --> 00:56:28,712
Again, this is one of these
things about anthropology.
957
00:56:28,892 --> 00:56:31,212
There's a phrase in anthropology,
which is like, the goal of
958
00:56:31,212 --> 00:56:35,922
anthropology is to make the strange
familiar and the familiar strange.
959
00:56:36,322 --> 00:56:36,732
Right.
960
00:56:36,852 --> 00:56:39,592
So that, which is odd and weird
to us, make it really normal.
961
00:56:39,592 --> 00:56:40,892
And I go, yeah, that makes sense.
962
00:56:41,212 --> 00:56:43,882
And then to kind of look at your own
culture and reflect and think, Oh my
963
00:56:43,882 --> 00:56:46,702
God, that thing, which I thought was
really super familiar and normal, it's
964
00:56:46,702 --> 00:56:48,162
actually kind of odd that we do that.
965
00:56:48,652 --> 00:56:52,542
And so when I say to people, like,
what do you do if someone dies?
966
00:56:52,982 --> 00:56:53,732
Oh, I'm going to bring them up.
967
00:56:54,552 --> 00:56:56,782
soup or lasagna or
potatoes or whatever it is.
968
00:56:56,832 --> 00:56:58,782
And I say, that's very odd.
969
00:56:58,832 --> 00:56:59,932
That's an Australian thing.
970
00:57:00,052 --> 00:57:02,402
That's a, do you know
that that is an odd thing?
971
00:57:02,412 --> 00:57:05,152
She's like, but that's
not universal, right?
972
00:57:05,192 --> 00:57:08,482
Because in Japan, you don't do that.
973
00:57:08,542 --> 00:57:08,912
Right.
974
00:57:08,962 --> 00:57:12,352
And I had to, when I was in Japan,
I had to explain this kind of idea
975
00:57:12,352 --> 00:57:16,492
that actually in, in Australia, when
someone dies, what you do is you
976
00:57:16,522 --> 00:57:19,392
give gifts to the bereaved, right?
977
00:57:19,392 --> 00:57:22,492
Because the bereaved need to be
cared for and looked after and fed.
978
00:57:23,237 --> 00:57:27,597
Whereas in Japan, when someone dies,
you give gifts to the dead and they're
979
00:57:27,617 --> 00:57:31,317
usually gifts of incense because you
burn the incense for them, because
980
00:57:31,667 --> 00:57:36,317
in Buddhism, incense is the food
that the dead can consume, right?
981
00:57:36,357 --> 00:57:39,907
And so it's important that you
give gifts gifts to the dead, you
982
00:57:39,907 --> 00:57:41,137
know, and it's not to the bereaved.
983
00:57:41,197 --> 00:57:44,087
And so it's a totally different
way of relating to death and dying,
984
00:57:44,097 --> 00:57:47,647
but it's like, huh, that thing,
like the, the chicken soup or the
985
00:57:47,647 --> 00:57:50,757
lasagna that I thought was totally
normal, totally normal, normal.
986
00:57:50,967 --> 00:57:52,997
It's like a really weird thing
about Australian death culture.
987
00:57:54,077 --> 00:57:54,837
It's fascinating.
988
00:57:55,982 --> 00:58:00,642
Catherine: I really want to actually have
you back on when you do this research
989
00:58:00,672 --> 00:58:04,712
because, you know, there is the rise of
people and I can't remember what term
990
00:58:04,712 --> 00:58:08,912
you probably know what they called, but
the rise of the people on TikTok that are
991
00:58:08,912 --> 00:58:12,292
actually going round and eating the food.
992
00:58:12,672 --> 00:58:15,382
at the grave of the person
of the recipe that they've
993
00:58:15,382 --> 00:58:17,072
actually just made their food.
994
00:58:17,252 --> 00:58:17,962
I genuinely
995
00:58:17,962 --> 00:58:20,132
Hannah: think this is like the best
thing you can put in your gravestone.
996
00:58:20,162 --> 00:58:21,422
I'm slightly obsessed with it.
997
00:58:21,822 --> 00:58:24,932
It's like, so for people who don't,
haven't heard about this, who are
998
00:58:24,932 --> 00:58:28,672
not on TikTok is that there's a
number of gravestones in the U.
999
00:58:28,672 --> 00:58:28,912
S.
1000
00:58:28,932 --> 00:58:33,122
that have recipes on them, which I think
is wonderful because it's such a huge
1001
00:58:33,142 --> 00:58:34,997
part of like, family legacy as well.
1002
00:58:34,997 --> 00:58:37,267
Like if you think about the
things you inherit, I think
1003
00:58:37,267 --> 00:58:40,337
particularly women, I think it's
very gendered, which is interesting.
1004
00:58:40,607 --> 00:58:43,447
But if you think about the things
that you inherit from your family,
1005
00:58:43,447 --> 00:58:46,687
like one of them is like, well,
grandmother's recipe for eggs, right?
1006
00:58:46,687 --> 00:58:49,327
Like this is how my food
traditions are family traditions.
1007
00:58:50,057 --> 00:58:52,857
So there's a number of gravestones
that have recipes on them.
1008
00:58:53,417 --> 00:58:57,612
And then there's this trend on TikTok,
which I think is lovely of people Like
1009
00:58:57,672 --> 00:59:02,722
taking that recipe, making the food and
then going to the grave and eating the
1010
00:59:02,722 --> 00:59:09,742
food there as a kind of like offering
celebration, you know, thank you.
1011
00:59:10,012 --> 00:59:10,762
It's wonderful.
1012
00:59:10,782 --> 00:59:12,672
I mean, actually that might be
the thing I want on my gravestone.
1013
00:59:12,672 --> 00:59:16,752
I don't particularly want a
gravestone, but like a recipe book
1014
00:59:16,752 --> 00:59:18,662
would be a great QR code download.
1015
00:59:18,752 --> 00:59:19,132
Do you know what I mean?
1016
00:59:19,932 --> 00:59:20,402
These are the
1017
00:59:20,402 --> 00:59:23,692
Catherine: It's such a strong,
it's such a strong connection.
1018
00:59:23,842 --> 00:59:25,072
Uh, one of the.
1019
00:59:25,487 --> 00:59:30,337
The first interviews I did for the
podcast was I asked one of the, I
1020
00:59:30,337 --> 00:59:34,857
asked the guest what was their most
sentimental thing that they'd inherited.
1021
00:59:34,887 --> 00:59:40,642
And it was an icing icing sugar bowl
that their mum used to always Make the
1022
00:59:40,672 --> 00:59:46,652
icing for their birthday cakes, and that
is her most precious item and it's the
1023
00:59:46,652 --> 00:59:51,432
same that she now uses that same icing
sugar bowl to create the icing for her
1024
00:59:51,432 --> 00:59:53,542
children's cakes for their birthdays.
1025
00:59:53,962 --> 00:59:56,682
And so there's something
so beautiful in that.
1026
00:59:56,732 --> 01:00:02,262
And when I was speaking to Jenny
from Tender Funerals, she was also
1027
01:00:02,262 --> 01:00:04,372
talking about that they have a picnic.
1028
01:00:04,707 --> 01:00:11,097
Whereby once a year they make the food
that their loved ones, uh, was their
1029
01:00:11,137 --> 01:00:15,497
favorite recipe and go and have a
picnic and, and get together and they
1030
01:00:15,497 --> 01:00:19,577
taste each other's food, I'm like,
I want to be invited to that picnic.
1031
01:00:19,807 --> 01:00:20,217
Hannah: Yeah.
1032
01:00:20,287 --> 01:00:26,057
It sounds, I mean, so on a personal
note, I think mine for that is the pot
1033
01:00:26,087 --> 01:00:35,037
lid, it's like a enamel pot saucepan
lid that I own that is the size of.
1034
01:00:35,132 --> 01:00:42,422
The pasty like dough for making Cornish
pasties that I got from my grandmother.
1035
01:00:42,932 --> 01:00:44,242
I don't know what the rest of the pot is.
1036
01:00:44,272 --> 01:00:45,412
I don't think the pot exists.
1037
01:00:45,552 --> 01:00:49,402
It like is this lid that has one
function, which is like once a year
1038
01:00:49,402 --> 01:00:52,752
when we make pasties, that will be
the perfect size for cutting out the
1039
01:00:53,122 --> 01:00:54,432
dough to make the pasties, right?
1040
01:00:55,292 --> 01:00:56,622
And it's hilarious.
1041
01:00:58,012 --> 01:01:02,202
On a more kind of I suppose
serious, but also fundamental note.
1042
01:01:02,262 --> 01:01:04,292
There's this extraordinary ethnography.
1043
01:01:04,352 --> 01:01:07,642
In anthropology, this is an
anthropologist called Carol Kidron.
1044
01:01:08,072 --> 01:01:12,062
And she has this wonderful paper called
toward an ethnography of silence.
1045
01:01:12,162 --> 01:01:15,752
And she's kind of interested in
the ways in which like trauma and
1046
01:01:15,752 --> 01:01:18,692
legacies and death have kind of
like had these kind of little.
1047
01:01:20,082 --> 01:01:22,762
they pop up in everyday life,
but they're quite, they're not
1048
01:01:22,762 --> 01:01:24,402
necessarily commented upon, right?
1049
01:01:24,402 --> 01:01:25,152
Or reflected on.
1050
01:01:25,152 --> 01:01:26,712
They just become part of your everyday.
1051
01:01:27,282 --> 01:01:30,482
And she particularly works with
Holocaust survivors and families
1052
01:01:30,482 --> 01:01:33,982
who've experienced the Holocaust
in, I think in the U S actually.
1053
01:01:34,952 --> 01:01:42,962
And she has just extraordinary example
of this woman who inherited a spoon.
1054
01:01:43,042 --> 01:01:48,512
That was the spoon that someone
used in the concentration camp to
1055
01:01:49,292 --> 01:01:52,302
like every day to feed themselves,
like this is the one thing they had.
1056
01:01:52,352 --> 01:01:58,292
And that this spoon now becomes this
thing that she feeds her daughter
1057
01:01:58,292 --> 01:02:01,912
with, well her great granddaughter,
you know, that they've inherited.
1058
01:02:02,352 --> 01:02:07,967
And that the kind of, how being
able to like, feed their next
1059
01:02:07,967 --> 01:02:09,627
generation with this spoon.
1060
01:02:09,627 --> 01:02:11,887
Is this such a powerful example of like,
1061
01:02:14,147 --> 01:02:16,327
we have overcome, right?
1062
01:02:16,357 --> 01:02:18,917
That we have overcome this
incredible thing that tried
1063
01:02:18,917 --> 01:02:21,377
to erase us from existence.
1064
01:02:21,377 --> 01:02:24,087
And now it's this part
of, of, of who we are.
1065
01:02:24,737 --> 01:02:26,697
And there's this kind of interesting
thing because all these people are like,
1066
01:02:26,697 --> 01:02:28,257
oh, you know, this should be in a museum.
1067
01:02:28,267 --> 01:02:30,197
Like, this is an incredible artifact.
1068
01:02:30,207 --> 01:02:34,667
It's like, no, it's so much more powerful
that it's part of everyday life, right?
1069
01:02:34,697 --> 01:02:38,807
Like, this is this inheritance that
we have that sustains, literally
1070
01:02:38,807 --> 01:02:41,567
sustains her children, right?
1071
01:02:42,077 --> 01:02:43,047
Through feeding them.
1072
01:02:43,347 --> 01:02:46,687
And it just reminds me of all of these
kind of I mean, this is why I'm interested
1073
01:02:46,907 --> 01:02:50,367
in material culture and objects and
death and all these wonderful questions.
1074
01:02:50,367 --> 01:02:55,207
It's because it's like, wow, look at
this story of just like, look at this
1075
01:02:55,207 --> 01:03:00,522
story of what humans are and the kind
of, you know, narratives we create
1076
01:03:00,532 --> 01:03:02,682
in the face of death and destruction.
1077
01:03:02,682 --> 01:03:03,632
That's so beautiful.
1078
01:03:05,322 --> 01:03:09,582
Catherine: And speaking about items,
Hannah, I'm fascinated with the
1079
01:03:09,892 --> 01:03:12,232
skeleton hanging behind your head.
1080
01:03:12,752 --> 01:03:13,252
Yes, I have
1081
01:03:13,562 --> 01:03:17,212
Hannah: my, some, some point during
COVID Zoom, I decided that a death
1082
01:03:17,212 --> 01:03:18,392
study is Buddhist studies research.
1083
01:03:18,962 --> 01:03:20,902
I needed to have some good decorations.
1084
01:03:21,252 --> 01:03:27,187
So I have, yeah, these are my, I mean,
this is I don't know if you, I don't
1085
01:03:27,187 --> 01:03:30,057
know if you know this beautiful painting.
1086
01:03:31,147 --> 01:03:32,927
Oh, that's fantastic.
1087
01:03:33,207 --> 01:03:36,547
So let me, I'm just going to
Google the actual artist, but
1088
01:03:36,597 --> 01:03:37,057
uh, yeah.
1089
01:03:37,057 --> 01:03:38,717
So this is the garden of death.
1090
01:03:40,532 --> 01:03:43,112
So it's by a Finnish
painter, Hugo Simberg.
1091
01:03:43,512 --> 01:03:48,002
And it's one of my, obviously
podcasting is not a visual, uh, format.
1092
01:03:48,012 --> 01:03:53,572
So I will explain that it is kind of
the Grim Reaper tending to a garden.
1093
01:03:53,592 --> 01:03:57,522
It's like a little, tending to a kind
of, uh, maybe a glass house or something.
1094
01:03:58,552 --> 01:03:59,952
Yeah, with raised beds.
1095
01:04:00,332 --> 01:04:00,842
Yeah.
1096
01:04:00,842 --> 01:04:01,732
Which is.
1097
01:04:01,812 --> 01:04:07,792
I suppose in is, is kind of this kind
of paradox of death, but also then the
1098
01:04:07,792 --> 01:04:12,122
renewal of life and rebirth, which is
some things that I think we tend to
1099
01:04:12,122 --> 01:04:14,242
think about as quite contradictory.
1100
01:04:14,242 --> 01:04:20,472
But in anthropology, there's a famous
book about how a lot of funerals include
1101
01:04:20,472 --> 01:04:25,242
symbols of like rebirth and real life
and, you know, this kind of new life.
1102
01:04:25,942 --> 01:04:29,232
after death is like a really important
part of a lot of religious and
1103
01:04:29,232 --> 01:04:30,512
funeral traditions around the world.
1104
01:04:31,122 --> 01:04:37,352
My skeleton, which is from a
museum in France, I believe.
1105
01:04:37,352 --> 01:04:38,552
I love a museum gift shop.
1106
01:04:39,072 --> 01:04:41,572
So, Musée de Croix en Vallée.
1107
01:04:41,952 --> 01:04:49,702
And then, yeah, a lot of Buddhist
religious art and Shinto art and things
1108
01:04:49,702 --> 01:04:56,652
I have inherited that make me, you
know, Remind me of the passage of time,
1109
01:04:56,662 --> 01:05:02,362
but also, you know, look great in the
background of a I love your skeleton.
1110
01:05:02,602 --> 01:05:03,742
I've got to hang this up.
1111
01:05:03,982 --> 01:05:05,642
Yeah, I've got to find ways to.
1112
01:05:06,422 --> 01:05:07,482
Catherine: Yeah, to add to it.
1113
01:05:07,502 --> 01:05:08,732
That's fantastic.
1114
01:05:10,372 --> 01:05:12,882
Hannah: Someone, someone might
skeptically say that I got into
1115
01:05:12,882 --> 01:05:15,732
this line of work because I love
the merch and it's not untrue.
1116
01:05:17,462 --> 01:05:21,552
Catherine: I have to say the merch is
pretty good in the old death industry.
1117
01:05:21,942 --> 01:05:25,492
Gotta get the good merch.
1118
01:05:26,152 --> 01:05:27,807
Now, Anna, I love you.
1119
01:05:29,027 --> 01:05:33,877
Is there any traditions that you've
had from your family that you've,
1120
01:05:33,947 --> 01:05:37,157
you want to keep on in your own
family or are you still on it today?
1121
01:05:37,157 --> 01:05:40,427
Is it the, the Cornish pasty making?
1122
01:05:41,617 --> 01:05:41,897
Definitely
1123
01:05:42,097 --> 01:05:43,417
Hannah: the Cornish pasty making.
1124
01:05:43,777 --> 01:05:44,677
We're not Cornish.
1125
01:05:44,707 --> 01:05:46,252
I don't know why we make pasties.
1126
01:05:46,962 --> 01:05:47,452
Neither
1127
01:05:47,452 --> 01:05:48,802
Catherine: are we, but we do anyway,
1128
01:05:48,832 --> 01:05:49,032
Hannah: as well.
1129
01:05:49,032 --> 01:05:50,962
I suppose it's a general English thing.
1130
01:05:51,182 --> 01:05:51,282
Yeah.
1131
01:05:53,552 --> 01:05:56,452
I mean, it's kind of interesting
as well now because I obviously,
1132
01:05:56,492 --> 01:06:01,792
so I say obviously, so my husband's
Japanese and he, you know, there
1133
01:06:01,792 --> 01:06:05,502
are a lot of traditions around death
and dying that he has inherited.
1134
01:06:05,512 --> 01:06:09,092
So he actually comes from a family that.
1135
01:06:09,762 --> 01:06:12,822
is part of kind of like a Buddhist
temple family in many ways.
1136
01:06:12,832 --> 01:06:16,342
So there's like quite specific
death and dying traditions
1137
01:06:16,352 --> 01:06:18,132
that, that he has in his family.
1138
01:06:18,632 --> 01:06:20,662
None of which he very much
cares about, it should be said.
1139
01:06:20,902 --> 01:06:24,962
But I feel somewhat obligated that if
we had kids that, you know, that that
1140
01:06:24,962 --> 01:06:28,562
would, that I would be responsible
for passing down both, right?
1141
01:06:28,562 --> 01:06:30,312
Sets of traditions in an important way.
1142
01:06:30,832 --> 01:06:35,202
I think more than anything, it probably
is that like love of good food and wine.
1143
01:06:36,877 --> 01:06:40,667
I think, you know, that's the kind of, you
know, spending, saving up all your pennies
1144
01:06:40,747 --> 01:06:42,687
so that you can go overseas for six weeks.
1145
01:06:42,687 --> 01:06:47,047
Like that kind of, what is important
to you and what is important to you
1146
01:06:47,047 --> 01:06:49,167
is good food more than anything else.
1147
01:06:49,197 --> 01:06:51,197
And, and, and good, you know, wine.
1148
01:06:51,197 --> 01:06:56,407
And that's probably, The
legacy in some ways of,
1149
01:06:58,987 --> 01:07:02,557
it's kind of interesting once again, it's
like, well, people, perhaps people who
1150
01:07:02,557 --> 01:07:05,607
don't think that they're particularly
religious, or I think a lot of white
1151
01:07:05,707 --> 01:07:08,437
Australians have a tendency to think,
Oh, I don't really have any culture.
1152
01:07:08,477 --> 01:07:09,767
I don't have any cultural traditions.
1153
01:07:10,147 --> 01:07:14,997
You do, you just don't think of
them as culture because you assume
1154
01:07:14,997 --> 01:07:19,147
that like culture means non white
people, which is, you know, a lie.
1155
01:07:19,587 --> 01:07:20,577
That is incorrect.
1156
01:07:21,017 --> 01:07:24,207
You people, everyone has cultural
traditions they want to pass down.
1157
01:07:24,267 --> 01:07:29,417
And so, yeah, they are very much
about those ideas of, of enjoying
1158
01:07:29,417 --> 01:07:31,077
life and the good things in it.
1159
01:07:31,737 --> 01:07:32,177
Yeah.
1160
01:07:33,867 --> 01:07:40,177
Catherine: And given your experience,
uh, is there any advice or encouragement
1161
01:07:40,187 --> 01:07:44,417
that you'd like to share with
others about, you know, end of life
1162
01:07:44,427 --> 01:07:49,052
planning, death care, death, Ah,
1163
01:07:51,462 --> 01:07:54,038
Hannah: Hmm, I think, two things.
1164
01:07:54,038 --> 01:07:54,502
Okay.
1165
01:07:59,142 --> 01:08:04,572
I think what I'd like to share is that
like, you can resist the temptation or
1166
01:08:04,602 --> 01:08:08,032
the pressure to make death positive.
1167
01:08:09,022 --> 01:08:12,972
I think death positivity is a really
important movement, but I think we can
1168
01:08:12,972 --> 01:08:17,702
also all agree that like death is a bit
shit and losing the people you love.
1169
01:08:18,142 --> 01:08:18,912
is terrible.
1170
01:08:19,592 --> 01:08:24,262
And it doesn't, you know, thinking
about death and learning about death
1171
01:08:24,292 --> 01:08:30,502
and contemplating it doesn't mean that
you are all happy about it all the time.
1172
01:08:30,732 --> 01:08:33,942
Like I'm a death studies,
religious studies researcher.
1173
01:08:33,942 --> 01:08:35,762
I think about these
questions all the time.
1174
01:08:36,132 --> 01:08:38,712
Doesn't mean I'm feel
happy about the idea.
1175
01:08:39,672 --> 01:08:43,572
You know, I'm not super chill about dying
or my friends dying, my family dying.
1176
01:08:43,582 --> 01:08:47,792
It doesn't solve it because
fundamentally you cannot solve death.
1177
01:08:47,882 --> 01:08:48,582
Like it's not.
1178
01:08:48,987 --> 01:08:52,157
It's not something that you
can fix, which is a hard thing
1179
01:08:52,167 --> 01:08:53,417
to kind of come to terms with.
1180
01:08:54,317 --> 01:08:58,127
So resist trying to make it all better
because it's not going to become better.
1181
01:08:58,127 --> 01:09:02,617
And then I think the second one
very much connected to food and wine
1182
01:09:02,617 --> 01:09:08,582
and everything else is, is that the
antidote to to grieve for existential
1183
01:09:08,592 --> 01:09:10,812
angst in this manner is, is beauty.
1184
01:09:11,212 --> 01:09:17,122
And that is beauty of being in nature
or being surrounded by friends or
1185
01:09:17,122 --> 01:09:22,802
good food and wine or appreciating
little moments in everyday life.
1186
01:09:23,252 --> 01:09:27,837
If you can find moments of beauty,
as you try and navigate that which is
1187
01:09:27,837 --> 01:09:33,817
quite overwhelming and terrifying and
complex and family, family dynamics
1188
01:09:33,817 --> 01:09:39,267
and finances and all of that, then I
think it provides some relief to what
1189
01:09:39,267 --> 01:09:41,657
is a very challenging experience.
1190
01:09:44,437 --> 01:09:46,227
Catherine: That's a
beautiful way to end Hannah.
1191
01:09:46,257 --> 01:09:47,317
Thank you so much.
1192
01:09:47,777 --> 01:09:48,747
Hannah: Thank you for having me.
1193
01:09:50,047 --> 01:09:50,537
Anytime.
Read Less
Resources
- Critical Info Resource Hub
- My loved one died, what do I do now?
- Dr Hannah Gould's website: Hannah Gould - Anthropologist
- Dying Buddish in Australia report
- Redesigning Deathcare Conference October 27-29 2022 https://www.redesigningdeathcare.org/
- Stephanie Longmuir
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