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There is no right way to grieve.

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Grief is a very individual process
and there's no particular way that

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you should be or shouldn't be in that.

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Grief isn't just about the loss of.

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a human being.

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So I think really we need to a, broaden
our horizon of what grief actually means.

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Remember for ourselves that there
is not a correct way to do this.

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However you're feeling and whatever
you're doing is the right way.

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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead.

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A podcast encouraging open conversations
about dying and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death back to life.

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Because while you may not be ready
to die, At least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations

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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.

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We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging and extend

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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Today I'm speaking with Dr Hayley Quinn.

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Hayley is an anti burnout business
coach, speaker, trainer, author

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and former clinical psychologist.

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Dr Hayley is founder and director of
Welcome to Self, a company that helps

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women entrepreneurs transform their
relationships with themselves and

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their businesses so they can succeed
without compromising their well being.

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She is also the host of the
popular Welcome to Self podcast.

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Whilst overcoming burnout herself, Dr.
Hayley discovered the power of compassion

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and developed sustainable ways of working.

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She now guides women to step out
of the shadows, embrace their

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authenticity and build a thriving
business aligned with their values.

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With a blend of empathy, compassion
and practical skills, she empowers

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her clients to stop playing small,
take up space And create a life

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and business that nourishes them.

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Dr. Hayley believes that if you
thrive, your business will thrive too.

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Thanks for joining us, Dr. Hayley.

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Oh, thanks so much for having me.

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It was lovely to connect recently
and talk about coming on the podcast.

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So we met online and we're both
members of the networking group, One

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Roof, and I'm in Melbourne and you're.

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You're north of me, aren't you?

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Sunshine Coast in Queensland.

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That's right.

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And so we had a bit of a chat prior to
Christmas about the work that you do.

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And I'm really fascinated about the
fact that it's based around compassion.

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So can you talk to me a little bit
about You know, what is the power of

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compassion?

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Yeah, definitely.

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So I always like to start with what is
compassion, because I think there's a lot

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of misunderstandings around what that is,
and I think often people think it's quite

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a kind of weak, soft, let yourself off the
hook kind of thing, and it's really not.

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The definition by Professor
Paul Gilbert, who's the founder

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of Compassion Focused Therapy.

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And that is that compassion is a
sensitivity to suffering in ourselves

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and others with a commitment to
alleviate or prevent the suffering.

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So I think it's really important to
start there because one of the key

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foundations of compassion is courage.

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And certainly in the sort of work
you do, people are suffering.

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Yeah, and we need to have this
sensitivity to suffering, but also

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in the work that I do with women who
are running businesses, they can get

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caught up in a lot of suffering in that
as well and oftentimes minimize it.

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So I think one of the things
that's really helpful is when we

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can build a compassionate mind.

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and a compassionate self.

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And then we can respond to
ourselves differently in all sorts

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of situations, but also respond
to other people differently.

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And we'll talk more about
that, I'm sure as we go on.

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So

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it

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sounds

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like

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it's one of those things where it kind
of reminds me when you were talking

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about, you know, when you're on the
airplane and they always say, put

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your mask on first before you put your
mask on someone else that you need to.

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really focus within yourself before
you can actually really help others?

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Would that be the sort of
thing that it is, is based on?

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Is, is really that power that
you give to yourself first?

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Yeah.

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Well, I think, you know, really,
when we think about it, we

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need to take care of ourselves.

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We need to take care of others.

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We need to take care of community.

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We need to take care of mother earth.

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So for me, it's all of it.

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And with compassion as well, there's a
lot of talk online around self compassion.

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And self compassion is
really, really important.

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But it's not the only flow of compassion.

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There's three flows of compassion.

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There's compassion from ourselves
to others, and many, many people,

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particularly women, and particularly
the women I work with who run service

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based businesses, tend to be very good
at offering compassion to other people.

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Then there is the self compassion
and this is one that people

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can really struggle with.

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And then there's also
compassion from others.

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And again, people can really struggle with
receiving compassion from other people.

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So we tend to find that people find it
easier to give the compassion outward.

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Then to give it to themselves or
receive it from other people and it's

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important that we look at all three flows

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And that's interesting because when you're
actually saying when you there's two

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things that come to mind We're about the
two elements that you're talking about

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there with the giving of compassion and
then also the receiving of the compassion

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So that immediately makes me think of
when someone has died and that confusion

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around you know You'd like to support
someone, but you don't know how, and then

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that other side of the coin, if you're
the person who has actually had someone

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pass away and die, and you know, how do
you respond when people want to offer you?

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And sometimes that can be really
challenging because people always

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have the You know, I don't think
anyone says something to someone

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who is grieving that is ill intent.

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But sometimes it can be taken the
wrong way, and sometimes we say

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things that are a little, a little
cliche sometimes, because sometimes we

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don't know what we should be saying.

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So it'd be great if we could talk
through more of those three elements

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in detail, and see how we can sort of
maybe delve and support, see how we

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can talk to people about supporting
Those in those situations, because

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that's really challenging and I'm
sure you've seen many of those sort

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of scenarios in your work as well.

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Yeah, so I think the first thing I would
say is particularly in Western cultures.

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definitely in Western culture.

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We don't deal with death.

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We don't talk about death.

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We don't teach people
how to navigate death.

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You know, when I met you, I was
really, I remember saying to you, I

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was really excited about the work you
do because this is something we need

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to talk more about and we just don't.

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So one of the first things I'd say is
if you are in a situation where somebody

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close to you has had somebody die and
you don't know What to say, or you're

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feeling awkward, go gently with yourself.

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It's understandable that you don't
know how to navigate this, because

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likely as nobody's ever told you.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And, and this can be
one of the first things.

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It's like, come back to that.

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Does this make sense that
I'm feeling this way?

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And when it comes to grief, I think for
many of us, it would be, yes, of course,

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it makes sense because this is not a
topic that we discuss, we're taught

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about, people tend to want to avoid it.

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I think I said to you in my phone
that I like talking about death,

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sounds a bit weird, but I like
having these conversations because

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I think they're important when
I was working as a psychologist.

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I worked with numerous people who had
lost a loved one and none of these

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conversations had ever happened around,
you know, what would happen if one

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of us dies, how are the household
finances worked out or where are

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important paperwork, anything like that.

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And the additional suffering on top of
the grief of the loss was heartbreaking.

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So for me, being able to have these
conversations within families as

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professionals, what are you going
to do with your business if you die?

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What happens with the
things in your business?

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Because somebody, one of your loved
ones or one of your colleagues is

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going to have to deal with that.

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If none of these conversations are
happening, these are going to be

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additional layers of suffering.

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That's

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exactly the situation that
we found ourselves in.

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And it really is challenging because
you go straight into action mode.

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You know, that's, I don't know
whether that's the based on

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the whole fight or flight when
you're, you know, you, you, you.

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because we were in shock
because of our friend Roland.

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It was a heart attack and
it was a totally unexpected.

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So you just go into action mode and
so you are constantly thinking about

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the logistics and you know and before
you realize that you're already in the

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thick of it and you really haven't.

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And what we found is, you know, we didn't
even know where his keys were and, and,

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you know, we've been choked that we can't,
we can't park downstairs, but, like,

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these are just the silly things that you
find yourself, like, having to deal with.

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And so, I, I totally agree with you with
what I've found in our situation is,

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had we known some of that information,
and just, in my, You know, the children

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didn't even know whether Colin wanted
a cremation, or whether he wanted to

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be buried, so they had to make those
decisions, and they're really challenging

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decisions to make in the speak of grief.

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Of course, and

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you

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know, you mentioned

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you

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don't

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actually know, and I think part of
that is part of the normal process,

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because when somebody dies, certain
things have to happen, but it's that

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additional layer of, If we didn't have
to deal with all that, yes, we could

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do the practical things we have to do,
and then we could move towards grief.

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The other thing I'd like to say is,
there is no right way to grieve.

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Grief is a very individual process,
and there's no particular way that

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you should be or shouldn't be in
that, whether you are directly

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impacted or indirectly impacted.

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And also just as a side note
as well, grief isn't just about

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the loss of a human being.

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People can have significant grief
reactions to pets, to the loss of a

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home, to the change of a circumstance.

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So I think really we need to A, broaden
our horizon of what grief actually means,

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And also remember for ourselves that
there is not a correct way to do this.

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However you're feeling and whatever
you're doing is the right way.

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Now, obviously, if you're causing
harm to yourself, we want to

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make sure you're getting help.

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And if grief is becoming extremely
prolonged to the point that you

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can't get on and function in your
life, then obviously go and seek

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help from your GP or a psychologist
or, you know, speak to a trusted.

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person in your life.

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In general, there is no
right or wrong way to grieve.

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And I think that's really
important for people to know.

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And I think also the other thing
that I find is that grief can

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raise its ugly head, not just
at the time of the incident.

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And like you said, you know,
like for me personally.

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I certainly grieved when, after my
car accident, and it was a whole

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change of lifestyle for me and a
whole change of career, so there was

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a lot of grieving that I went through.

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But it can also be something
that rears its ugly head.

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years after as well.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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And I think people have to be kind
about that too, to themselves.

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Absolutely.

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And this is where that sort of
compassion to self comes in of actually

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how can you be with yourself and how
can you talk to yourself and what

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kind of actions can you take that
are going to be helpful, not harmful.

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And can you talk us through some
of those actions that you suggest?

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Is that something that you could
give us an indication of, Dr. Hayley?

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Look, I think a lot of that is
going to be individual to what

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somebody needs for themselves.

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Obviously speaking to yourself in
a kind and friendly voice tone.

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is more helpful than being self critical.

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And again, depending on the relation,
if we'd say we're talking about the

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relationship with a human being that's
died, depending on your relationship with

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that person is really going to influence
what shows up for you after death.

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There may be complexities to that.

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So it's not really a stock answer,
but certainly being kind to yourself,

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coming back to that is what I'm doing.

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Helpful, not harmful.

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You know, having the odd glass of wine.

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isn't going to do you any harm,
but if, if you were drinking a

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bottle of wine every day for weeks
on end after a loved one had died.

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Then you're likely going to
be causing yourself a problem.

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Yeah, so I think for me it's coming back
to those Things like what is it that I

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00:13:42,875 --> 00:13:48,545
need right now checking in with yourself
and that as well can be hard again You

230
00:13:48,545 --> 00:13:55,150
know grief can be Something that shows up
lightly to something that is so profound.

231
00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:59,440
I think when we think about the flows
of compassion and you mentioned before,

232
00:13:59,710 --> 00:14:03,170
sometimes people can find it hard to
receive compassion or receive help

233
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,300
from people when they've had a loss.

234
00:14:05,700 --> 00:14:08,980
And some of that may be because
of the kind of cliched things that

235
00:14:08,980 --> 00:14:10,579
end up not being very helpful.

236
00:14:11,205 --> 00:14:13,905
Some of it can be because they've
had a lifetime of finding it

237
00:14:13,905 --> 00:14:15,365
hard to receive help from people.

238
00:14:15,775 --> 00:14:16,165
Yeah.

239
00:14:16,355 --> 00:14:20,995
And this is why, for me, building
this relationship, this compassionate

240
00:14:20,995 --> 00:14:25,715
relationship with yourself now
is helpful for in the future

241
00:14:25,715 --> 00:14:26,955
when difficult things happen.

242
00:14:27,734 --> 00:14:28,214
Yeah?

243
00:14:28,834 --> 00:14:33,345
Trying to do this in the eye of the
storm is obviously going to be more

244
00:14:33,345 --> 00:14:38,285
difficult than if it's something that
you've practiced in your life before

245
00:14:38,285 --> 00:14:44,584
the things But if we can, and the other
thing people can often think is that

246
00:14:44,645 --> 00:14:50,304
by asking for help or being willing
to accept help is a sign of weakness.

247
00:14:50,995 --> 00:14:53,735
And what I would say to that is
it's actually a sign of great

248
00:14:53,735 --> 00:14:57,724
strength, particularly if it's
something that you struggle with.

249
00:14:57,915 --> 00:14:58,885
Yeah, it's interesting.

250
00:14:58,895 --> 00:15:06,285
We had a situation recently where it was
a family occasion and there was a series

251
00:15:06,285 --> 00:15:14,355
of speeches and there was a friend of my
son who gave a speech and you could have

252
00:15:14,355 --> 00:15:23,505
heard a pin drop during his speech and
What it was is that we have seen him over

253
00:15:23,505 --> 00:15:29,535
years of, you know, high school develop
into the beautiful young man he's become.

254
00:15:30,125 --> 00:15:35,935
And that has been because he's worked
really hard at developing those skills.

255
00:15:36,630 --> 00:15:41,010
Because it came from a background
which was not where you, you

256
00:15:41,010 --> 00:15:42,630
gave speeches, I suppose.

257
00:15:42,950 --> 00:15:44,200
It was pretty challenging.

258
00:15:44,230 --> 00:15:50,829
And so, for us to see him have developed
those skills, especially in the last

259
00:15:50,829 --> 00:15:55,879
few years where he's been out in the
workforce and his living situation has

260
00:15:55,879 --> 00:16:00,379
improved and for him to be able to give
that speech that he gave the other night

261
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:05,920
was just so beautiful and so heartfelt
and everyone in the room felt the love.

262
00:16:06,425 --> 00:16:12,675
because it was a real progression of
how much he has developed and how much

263
00:16:12,945 --> 00:16:18,185
He has developed his confidence And
his sense of self and well being during

264
00:16:18,185 --> 00:16:22,994
that time And that was really really
beautiful to see because you're right,

265
00:16:22,994 --> 00:16:27,295
you know, not everyone Comes from the
same backgrounds and whatever baggage we

266
00:16:27,295 --> 00:16:31,325
have in our upbringing we carry with us
into the future And what was so beautiful

267
00:16:31,665 --> 00:16:37,895
was in this one moment to actually see
This young man, you know presents so

268
00:16:37,954 --> 00:16:43,185
beautifully and really, you know He's
becoming himself and who he chooses to

269
00:16:43,185 --> 00:16:46,015
be which was just something so lovely.

270
00:16:46,114 --> 00:16:51,374
Yeah, I think you know It's important
for us to do these practices and start to

271
00:16:51,375 --> 00:16:55,994
develop this different relationship with
ourselves at times when we're not in high

272
00:16:55,994 --> 00:17:00,655
stress Because then when the challenges
and the difficulties or the losses

273
00:17:00,655 --> 00:17:05,605
arrive, we have this part of ourselves
we can draw upon to help us through.

274
00:17:05,905 --> 00:17:10,095
We can be sensitive to our own suffering
and have a commitment to want to

275
00:17:10,095 --> 00:17:11,615
alleviate and prevent the suffering.

276
00:17:11,775 --> 00:17:14,214
We are more motivated
to do it differently.

277
00:17:14,435 --> 00:17:15,915
And where does one start?

278
00:17:16,585 --> 00:17:20,724
Like, I totally understand that,
you know, being a female and an

279
00:17:20,734 --> 00:17:23,484
entrepreneur and a solo founder as well.

280
00:17:23,815 --> 00:17:28,474
I can totally understand that you,
you do work with women in business.

281
00:17:28,544 --> 00:17:34,015
Because we do wear so many hats and,
and we have so many responsibilities.

282
00:17:34,165 --> 00:17:37,695
And we, and, and in times of crisis
we are generally the ones that kind

283
00:17:37,695 --> 00:17:41,320
of have to bring it together or
step up to the plate to do things.

284
00:17:42,010 --> 00:17:45,820
So, where do you start
before we get to crisis mode?

285
00:17:46,220 --> 00:17:50,449
Well, I, I would say and probably
say to most people, start with just

286
00:17:50,460 --> 00:17:52,049
slowing down and taking a breath.

287
00:17:54,810 --> 00:17:59,529
I'll often just put my hand on my
heart, just take a breath in and

288
00:17:59,530 --> 00:18:03,660
a long breath out, which even that
can be really difficult for people.

289
00:18:04,250 --> 00:18:09,550
So maybe for some people it might be
starting by acknowledging that, wow, this

290
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:11,390
is going to be really difficult for me.

291
00:18:11,745 --> 00:18:15,555
I've never actually thought
about taking care of myself.

292
00:18:15,995 --> 00:18:18,865
I've never actually given
myself permission to slow down.

293
00:18:19,375 --> 00:18:21,925
Or it might be accessing a book.

294
00:18:21,925 --> 00:18:25,554
I know for me, I was a
single parent at university.

295
00:18:25,604 --> 00:18:27,764
I'd been in a domestic
violence relationship.

296
00:18:27,764 --> 00:18:30,475
So, you know, life had its challenges.

297
00:18:31,034 --> 00:18:35,739
And I came across the Mindful Path to
Self Compassion book by Chris Germer.

298
00:18:36,580 --> 00:18:39,039
And I read it and I remember
reading it, you know, this is great.

299
00:18:39,039 --> 00:18:40,370
And then obviously I was a single parent.

300
00:18:40,399 --> 00:18:42,229
I was sometimes working up to three jobs.

301
00:18:42,229 --> 00:18:43,370
I was extremely busy.

302
00:18:43,729 --> 00:18:45,639
This was before I burnt
out, funnily enough.

303
00:18:46,259 --> 00:18:48,599
And I kind of put it aside
and didn't do much with it.

304
00:18:48,689 --> 00:18:52,239
And then fortunately for me, when I was
a psychologist, part of my training was

305
00:18:52,239 --> 00:18:53,899
learning compassion focused therapy.

306
00:18:54,570 --> 00:18:58,510
So I had the benefit of being
able to kind of learn this as part

307
00:18:58,510 --> 00:19:00,500
of my work to help my clients.

308
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:05,040
But the beautiful thing about compassion
focused therapy is that you embody it.

309
00:19:05,325 --> 00:19:07,495
So that you can work
well with your clients.

310
00:19:07,565 --> 00:19:11,395
And it was an absolute life changer
for me personally and professionally.

311
00:19:12,215 --> 00:19:17,595
And there's some really beautiful
resources out there around compassion.

312
00:19:17,605 --> 00:19:19,214
There's lots of stuff on the internet.

313
00:19:19,684 --> 00:19:24,394
I have a podcast for business owners
and talk a lot about these kinds

314
00:19:24,394 --> 00:19:26,645
of things on the podcast as well.

315
00:19:27,504 --> 00:19:32,915
But some of it might be that
you commit to just speaking to

316
00:19:32,915 --> 00:19:34,345
yourself a little bit nicer.

317
00:19:34,610 --> 00:19:39,320
During the week and you know, we all
have that inner critic mine used to be

318
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:44,379
my default and she was brutal Over the
years and through practice my default

319
00:19:44,390 --> 00:19:46,020
now is more sort of hand on heart.

320
00:19:46,049 --> 00:19:48,210
Oh my gosh, darling I
know this is really hard.

321
00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:51,640
You're doing the best you can I never
would have thought that I'd speak to

322
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:58,040
myself like that many years ago So it
might be that you catch yourself when

323
00:19:58,040 --> 00:19:59,370
you're like, oh god, you're so stupid.

324
00:19:59,370 --> 00:20:00,000
Why did you do that?

325
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,055
It's so stupid It's like oh,
okay I noticed that I'm talking

326
00:20:04,055 --> 00:20:05,345
to myself really harshly.

327
00:20:05,785 --> 00:20:07,605
How would I speak to my loved one?

328
00:20:07,605 --> 00:20:09,155
How would I speak to my best friend?

329
00:20:10,015 --> 00:20:11,985
And then actually say that to yourself.

330
00:20:12,474 --> 00:20:16,355
Because none of us, I would imagine,
but probably wouldn't be friends

331
00:20:16,355 --> 00:20:19,794
for long, are saying to your friends
like, Oh my God, you're so stupid.

332
00:20:20,295 --> 00:20:21,085
You're such an idiot.

333
00:20:21,254 --> 00:20:21,874
Why did you?

334
00:20:22,355 --> 00:20:23,185
Beep do that.

335
00:20:23,315 --> 00:20:23,895
Yeah.

336
00:20:23,955 --> 00:20:24,195
Yeah.

337
00:20:24,195 --> 00:20:24,615
Yeah.

338
00:20:25,124 --> 00:20:28,394
And yet we think that that's fine
to talk to ourselves like that.

339
00:20:28,784 --> 00:20:32,804
Yeah, like my relationship
with myself was hideous.

340
00:20:33,445 --> 00:20:35,335
I had a very brutal self critic.

341
00:20:35,454 --> 00:20:41,315
And over time, I was able to
change that and develop a much more

342
00:20:41,344 --> 00:20:45,435
compassionate response to myself, which
like I say, is now a default for me.

343
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,130
And I never would have
thought that was possible.

344
00:20:48,140 --> 00:20:51,150
So if I can come from where I came
from with my relationship with

345
00:20:51,150 --> 00:20:53,730
myself, honestly, you can do this.

346
00:20:54,270 --> 00:20:59,109
And it really is helpful and it helps you
have these hard conversations as well.

347
00:20:59,470 --> 00:21:00,959
So I have a bit of a buddy with you.

348
00:21:00,959 --> 00:21:03,169
You know, when you're going to go do
something tough, you've kind of got

349
00:21:03,169 --> 00:21:04,840
this compassionate part of yourself.

350
00:21:05,199 --> 00:21:06,070
It's like, come on early.

351
00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:08,010
I know this is hard, but we've got this.

352
00:21:08,010 --> 00:21:08,639
You can do it.

353
00:21:09,565 --> 00:21:14,605
And it is really a different, I found
when I went through the process also of

354
00:21:14,625 --> 00:21:22,245
just changing that inner voice, I think
it made me more tolerant, empathetic

355
00:21:22,285 --> 00:21:27,665
person, because the way in which I'd
frame things, I'd be more mindful of how I

356
00:21:27,675 --> 00:21:30,135
framed them when I was talking to myself.

357
00:21:30,135 --> 00:21:33,835
So I found myself, I suppose,
more mindful when I had those

358
00:21:33,865 --> 00:21:35,515
conversations with other people.

359
00:21:35,684 --> 00:21:40,105
And you're right, like that, one of
the first things that, that I learned

360
00:21:40,155 --> 00:21:43,595
was finding that time for yourself.

361
00:21:44,065 --> 00:21:44,195
Yeah.

362
00:21:44,785 --> 00:21:49,389
You know, and just It started off with me
just having a cup of tea in the morning

363
00:21:49,930 --> 00:21:54,670
and just sitting there with a cup of
tea and the dog and the annoying cat.

364
00:21:54,929 --> 00:21:55,879
But I still love them.

365
00:21:56,099 --> 00:22:02,019
But sitting there for a full cup of tea
length of time before I did anything else

366
00:22:02,499 --> 00:22:05,320
and that's a long time to start off with.

367
00:22:05,770 --> 00:22:08,730
And then after a while you
go, oh gee that went quickly.

368
00:22:09,250 --> 00:22:09,590
Yeah.

369
00:22:09,620 --> 00:22:13,649
But at the start it was like I
felt found myself really fidgety.

370
00:22:14,129 --> 00:22:20,180
And, and really hard to get in the process
of allowing myself time for myself.

371
00:22:20,689 --> 00:22:21,219
Yeah.

372
00:22:21,249 --> 00:22:25,070
And that's so normal, like in
CFT Compassion Focus Therapy,

373
00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:28,299
we talk about the three circle
emotion regulation system.

374
00:22:28,299 --> 00:22:31,830
So we've got the red circle, which
is the threat system, and that's on

375
00:22:31,870 --> 00:22:33,719
24 hours a day, seven days a week.

376
00:22:34,090 --> 00:22:37,159
And certainly when people are in grief,
that's going to be a system that's highly

377
00:22:37,159 --> 00:22:41,840
activated and at other times, then we
have the drive system or the blue circle.

378
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:47,940
And that's the part of the system that
motivates us to pursue and achieve.

379
00:22:48,399 --> 00:22:52,620
And then we have the green circle or
the soothing system, which is our rest

380
00:22:52,620 --> 00:22:54,830
and digest, tend and befriend system.

381
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,710
So this is when we're not under
threat, we're not trying to

382
00:22:57,710 --> 00:22:59,089
pursue or achieve anything.

383
00:22:59,419 --> 00:23:00,899
We can relax more.

384
00:23:00,899 --> 00:23:03,530
We have that sense of
safeness, contentment.

385
00:23:03,909 --> 00:23:07,540
It's a calmer space and we feel more
connected to ourselves and others.

386
00:23:08,169 --> 00:23:12,439
Now what can happen and you describe
that so beautifully is when people

387
00:23:12,459 --> 00:23:16,770
are trying to move towards that
soothing system, it can activate the

388
00:23:16,770 --> 00:23:18,350
threat because we're not used to it.

389
00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:19,639
So you start to get agitated.

390
00:23:19,639 --> 00:23:21,420
So you're starting to move
into that fight flight.

391
00:23:21,555 --> 00:23:22,390
Yeah.

392
00:23:22,390 --> 00:23:25,445
Your nervous system starts
to kind of up regulate.

393
00:23:26,115 --> 00:23:29,485
And this is where some of the
breathing practices can come, be

394
00:23:29,485 --> 00:23:32,625
really, really helpful because they
can help down regulate that system.

395
00:23:32,755 --> 00:23:36,304
So as you're perhaps sitting,
and I'll often say to people, can

396
00:23:36,305 --> 00:23:39,055
you just take a few minutes and
perhaps sit and have a cup of tea?

397
00:23:39,055 --> 00:23:39,375
So that was.

398
00:23:39,780 --> 00:23:41,180
Fantastic example you used there.

399
00:23:41,420 --> 00:23:41,940
Oh good, I'm glad.

400
00:23:44,410 --> 00:23:46,220
Just lead into that well,
thank you very much.

401
00:23:46,670 --> 00:23:49,110
And as you do that,
just notice your breath.

402
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,050
Because you may find you get agitated.

403
00:23:51,580 --> 00:23:54,279
I've got to do this, I've got to get
the kids ready, or I've got to do that

404
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:59,730
thing, or that work thing, or, you
know, I should be doing something else.

405
00:24:00,220 --> 00:24:01,610
This is lazy.

406
00:24:01,790 --> 00:24:04,010
All those kind of things
that start to show up.

407
00:24:04,070 --> 00:24:06,490
So really noticing what's
happening with your breath.

408
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,190
And then slowing down your breath.

409
00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:13,410
And when we're doing that, we want
to make sure that our out breath is

410
00:24:13,510 --> 00:24:15,740
equal to or longer than our in breath.

411
00:24:16,510 --> 00:24:21,269
When we think about when we breathe
in, that activates our sympathetic

412
00:24:21,269 --> 00:24:24,340
nervous system, which is a bit
like the accelerator on the car.

413
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,940
And when we breathe out, we activate
the parasympathetic nervous system,

414
00:24:28,940 --> 00:24:30,530
which is like putting the brakes on.

415
00:24:31,629 --> 00:24:35,370
So if we're doing, you know, like at
school, it's like, take a big deep breath.

416
00:24:35,419 --> 00:24:36,339
Yeah, yep.

417
00:24:36,715 --> 00:24:39,835
What we need to be saying
is, take a long breath out.

418
00:24:39,915 --> 00:24:41,095
Yeah, that's interesting.

419
00:24:41,105 --> 00:24:44,805
Because if we just take big
breaths in, and we've only got

420
00:24:44,814 --> 00:24:48,075
little out breaths, we're actually
activating ourselves too much.

421
00:24:48,524 --> 00:24:52,694
See, something explained like that,
simply in the way in which you've

422
00:24:52,695 --> 00:24:56,814
explained it, that it's, because when
I find myself in these situations, I

423
00:24:56,814 --> 00:25:01,614
always do focus on the breathing in,
and raising the chest, and making sure I

424
00:25:01,614 --> 00:25:04,524
expand my diaphragm as much as possible.

425
00:25:05,060 --> 00:25:07,340
But really, my focus should
always be on the breath out.

426
00:25:07,340 --> 00:25:08,400
Is that what you're saying?

427
00:25:08,610 --> 00:25:09,380
Absolutely.

428
00:25:09,410 --> 00:25:13,420
And also when you're breathing in, and
this can be tricky for people and a lot

429
00:25:13,420 --> 00:25:18,709
of women when I worked with clients as
a psychologist, obviously do a lot of

430
00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:22,670
these breathing exercises with clients
and particularly with women, when I'd say,

431
00:25:22,749 --> 00:25:24,409
okay, I want you to focus on breathing.

432
00:25:24,475 --> 00:25:25,804
into the belly.

433
00:25:26,064 --> 00:25:26,284
Yeah.

434
00:25:26,334 --> 00:25:27,284
And

435
00:25:27,475 --> 00:25:28,425
people don't want to do that.

436
00:25:28,504 --> 00:25:28,745
Yeah.

437
00:25:29,024 --> 00:25:29,895
Why is that?

438
00:25:29,945 --> 00:25:33,705
Well, I mean, as women, we grow up in this
society that says, you know, you should

439
00:25:33,705 --> 00:25:36,425
be stick thin and not have a stomach.

440
00:25:36,425 --> 00:25:40,195
So we don't want to breathe out
and make our stomach bigger.

441
00:25:41,550 --> 00:25:44,969
you know, we actually want to
breathe deep into our belly.

442
00:25:45,970 --> 00:25:49,639
So if you had your hand on your chest
and on your belly, it's your hand

443
00:25:49,639 --> 00:25:52,520
on your belly that wants to be doing
the moving when you're breathing in.

444
00:25:53,409 --> 00:25:54,219
Yeah, okay.

445
00:25:54,229 --> 00:25:57,920
And they're simple things that you
can do anywhere because, you know,

446
00:25:58,569 --> 00:26:02,690
it's a simple practice of just
putting your hand on your belly and

447
00:26:02,690 --> 00:26:04,240
your chest and seeing which moves.

448
00:26:04,895 --> 00:26:09,075
So breathing into your belly and then
a nice equal or longer out breath.

449
00:26:09,175 --> 00:26:10,135
That's fantastic.

450
00:26:10,505 --> 00:26:12,785
Thank you very much for
sharing that one Hayley.

451
00:26:12,865 --> 00:26:14,305
That's much appreciated.

452
00:26:14,315 --> 00:26:15,595
No, it's an absolute pleasure.

453
00:26:15,645 --> 00:26:18,825
So yeah, I think doing the breathing
techniques, speaking to yourself

454
00:26:18,844 --> 00:26:23,274
kindly and a regular practice I have
is just checking in with myself.

455
00:26:23,275 --> 00:26:25,720
It's like, hey How am I going?

456
00:26:25,890 --> 00:26:26,770
How are you going Hayley?

457
00:26:26,900 --> 00:26:28,220
What do I need right now?

458
00:26:28,260 --> 00:26:29,920
And it might be I need some water.

459
00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:31,310
It might be I need to eat.

460
00:26:31,350 --> 00:26:33,290
It might be I need to go and sit down.

461
00:26:33,290 --> 00:26:35,230
It might be I need to go move my body.

462
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,230
You know, I sit at my
computer quite a bit.

463
00:26:37,770 --> 00:26:40,039
It might be that you need to reach out.

464
00:26:40,365 --> 00:26:43,595
for some help with something, particularly
if you're in that grieving process.

465
00:26:43,595 --> 00:26:48,044
It might be that you need to go and get
under your doona and just have a good cry.

466
00:26:48,074 --> 00:26:48,865
Yeah.

467
00:26:48,915 --> 00:26:49,185
Yeah.

468
00:26:49,185 --> 00:26:52,405
Whatever it might be, but checking,
getting into this habit of

469
00:26:52,405 --> 00:26:54,215
regularly checking in with yourself.

470
00:26:54,855 --> 00:26:57,714
Now you mentioned before you, you
and I are both business owners.

471
00:26:57,714 --> 00:26:59,975
I certainly work with
women business owners.

472
00:27:00,745 --> 00:27:04,815
And if you're running a business
and you're a solo business owner,

473
00:27:05,185 --> 00:27:09,005
life doesn't just stop because
you've got a business to run, right?

474
00:27:09,224 --> 00:27:11,224
No, it certainly doesn't, does it?

475
00:27:11,355 --> 00:27:14,715
And these things happen
and we have grief and loss.

476
00:27:14,995 --> 00:27:18,594
I think, I can't remember if it was just
before I met you or just after I met you,

477
00:27:18,614 --> 00:27:20,945
that we had a loss of a close friend.

478
00:27:21,465 --> 00:27:26,645
And for me, that meant really
letting go of a lot of the things

479
00:27:26,645 --> 00:27:28,705
that I didn't need to get done.

480
00:27:29,815 --> 00:27:31,915
I still had some clients I wanted to see.

481
00:27:32,514 --> 00:27:36,145
I felt able to see them, but a
lot of the other stuff I looked

482
00:27:36,145 --> 00:27:39,875
around and asked myself, what is
it that I don't need to be doing?

483
00:27:39,895 --> 00:27:43,745
Because I think one of the
things we can underestimate is.

484
00:27:44,205 --> 00:27:49,925
The cognitive or thinking impact it can
have, the emotional impact tends to be

485
00:27:49,925 --> 00:27:56,004
more obvious with grief, but also the
fatigue and how tired we can become

486
00:27:56,004 --> 00:27:58,495
because our body is doing so much more.

487
00:27:58,824 --> 00:28:00,234
And that's often underestimated.

488
00:28:01,450 --> 00:28:04,730
And we need to take these
things into account.

489
00:28:04,740 --> 00:28:08,560
I'll often hear people say, Oh yeah,
but my clients need me or yeah, but

490
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:12,659
I've got to get that thing done or
you know, what if my business stops

491
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,750
completely if I don't tend to it?

492
00:28:15,250 --> 00:28:18,759
So there can be a lot of fear again
that then adds to the suffering.

493
00:28:19,185 --> 00:28:19,945
It's interesting that you

494
00:28:19,945 --> 00:28:24,735
say that because around about the same
time and you had just actually lost

495
00:28:24,745 --> 00:28:28,805
that close friend before we spoke and
I think it was around about the same

496
00:28:28,805 --> 00:28:34,135
time that Rosie Batty was speaking
at the Frankston Library here just

497
00:28:34,145 --> 00:28:39,855
before Christmas and I went along and
I spoke to her because I just finished

498
00:28:39,855 --> 00:28:44,645
her book Hope which is her second book
that she released and that covers that.

499
00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:49,940
period from when she became Australian
of the Year and those years after.

500
00:28:50,060 --> 00:28:57,250
And it talks about her struggles in
relation to being so busy, still trying

501
00:28:57,250 --> 00:29:03,220
to grieve for Luke but being really,
really busy and the amount of engagements

502
00:29:03,220 --> 00:29:07,850
and appointments she felt compelled
to attend because she was given this.

503
00:29:08,435 --> 00:29:13,855
Platform which she would not normally
have had and the toll that it took on

504
00:29:13,865 --> 00:29:20,575
her And so when I met her just before
christmas I thanked her for her honesty

505
00:29:20,575 --> 00:29:25,565
and and how she Really explained that
that period and she was very vulnerable

506
00:29:25,565 --> 00:29:28,010
in in what she you know, divulge.

507
00:29:28,070 --> 00:29:31,540
And I said, thank you for sharing that
because I've just actually booked out

508
00:29:31,540 --> 00:29:38,030
my entire calendar for all of January,
really, to make sure I get a good month

509
00:29:38,060 --> 00:29:44,420
break and I'm not focusing on work and
everything can wait because it really

510
00:29:44,420 --> 00:29:48,670
brought home to me that, you know,
whatever I do is for the long haul.

511
00:29:48,865 --> 00:29:53,105
And it needs to be, and you know, I,
I should know better because obviously

512
00:29:53,105 --> 00:29:56,675
I've had to, I have to manage my chronic
pain and have to be very mindful of

513
00:29:56,675 --> 00:30:00,055
my physicality with the issues that
I have with the neuropathic pain.

514
00:30:00,565 --> 00:30:03,975
But it was something that just brought
it home going, you know what, the

515
00:30:03,975 --> 00:30:05,625
problems are still going to be there.

516
00:30:05,735 --> 00:30:09,705
And in a month's time, I need to
actually take the time off to make

517
00:30:09,705 --> 00:30:13,425
sure that I am actually fit enough
to go back and deal with them.

518
00:30:14,615 --> 00:30:15,515
Absolutely.

519
00:30:15,945 --> 00:30:19,675
Having experienced a significant
burnout, like I didn't know at

520
00:30:19,675 --> 00:30:23,715
the time, like I've chosen to no
longer be a registered psychologist.

521
00:30:24,045 --> 00:30:27,515
I love my business coaching
and other work I'm doing.

522
00:30:28,335 --> 00:30:30,005
But when I had my burnout.

523
00:30:30,225 --> 00:30:35,235
I was very much, you know, wanting to be
a psychologist and didn't know if I was

524
00:30:35,235 --> 00:30:36,515
going to be able to continue to do that.

525
00:30:36,515 --> 00:30:39,125
I literally had to walk away
from where I was working.

526
00:30:39,645 --> 00:30:45,245
I ended up starting up for myself in
a home based business and just really

527
00:30:45,305 --> 00:30:47,375
taking it easy and starting that up small.

528
00:30:47,375 --> 00:30:50,054
But I didn't know whether I was
going to be able to do that.

529
00:30:50,305 --> 00:30:53,975
And I had so many lessons whilst
that was not a great time in my life.

530
00:30:53,985 --> 00:30:58,045
And there was a lot of grief and loss
around identity and what having chronic

531
00:30:58,045 --> 00:31:01,155
illness meant, because that's what I
developed for me through a burnout.

532
00:31:01,545 --> 00:31:03,035
Whilst it was a really difficult time.

533
00:31:03,035 --> 00:31:07,985
It was also a time that gave me so many
lessons that I'm so, so grateful for.

534
00:31:08,445 --> 00:31:13,225
And it was really the catalyst of me
moving more into, well, hang on, what

535
00:31:13,235 --> 00:31:15,595
is the life I want to live and I can.

536
00:31:16,035 --> 00:31:17,765
And I can do that just because I want to.

537
00:31:17,915 --> 00:31:20,735
I can make choices about what I want,
just because that's what I want.

538
00:31:21,175 --> 00:31:24,225
So, it was a complex time,
but I'm very grateful for the

539
00:31:24,225 --> 00:31:25,465
lessons I learned from it.

540
00:31:25,965 --> 00:31:29,015
And now my mind's just gone, what on
earth are you talking about, Hayley?

541
00:31:29,015 --> 00:31:31,295
Ah,

542
00:31:31,295 --> 00:31:33,574
dear!

543
00:31:34,255 --> 00:31:36,395
That's so reassuring, because
everyone will be going, Ha!

544
00:31:36,895 --> 00:31:37,445
See?

545
00:31:37,785 --> 00:31:43,475
Just is a normal woman after all,
you know, like we have moments

546
00:31:43,485 --> 00:31:46,705
where we're all together and
then all of a sudden we're not.

547
00:31:47,535 --> 00:31:47,855
Yeah.

548
00:31:47,855 --> 00:31:48,925
It's like, hang on.

549
00:31:49,025 --> 00:31:54,315
I'm sure I had a brain about a minute ago,
but that part of me just left the room.

550
00:31:54,315 --> 00:31:55,190
I love it.

551
00:31:55,190 --> 00:31:56,066
I love it.

552
00:31:56,066 --> 00:31:58,109
I think I've come back to it.

553
00:31:58,109 --> 00:31:58,984
Um, about this.

554
00:31:59,125 --> 00:32:03,045
The importance of actually taking
care of you for the long haul, because

555
00:32:03,105 --> 00:32:07,365
the fear of what might go wrong in
the next little while is not what

556
00:32:07,375 --> 00:32:08,985
you want driving your decisions.

557
00:32:09,015 --> 00:32:12,245
And this is where, when we can
come back to this compassionate

558
00:32:12,245 --> 00:32:17,935
self, the qualities of compassion
are wisdom, strength, and courage.

559
00:32:18,495 --> 00:32:21,535
And the wisdom piece is so important.

560
00:32:21,645 --> 00:32:25,255
And we want to be able to
regulate our nervous system.

561
00:32:25,475 --> 00:32:28,275
So when we can implement these
breathing techniques and we can

562
00:32:28,285 --> 00:32:31,295
down regulate our system, well, that
might be that for you, it might be

563
00:32:31,295 --> 00:32:33,145
listening to some soothing music.

564
00:32:33,445 --> 00:32:35,275
It might be going for a walk.

565
00:32:35,325 --> 00:32:36,985
It might be being in water.

566
00:32:37,665 --> 00:32:39,275
It might be doing the breathing.

567
00:32:40,105 --> 00:32:43,585
Getting to know what helps you
regulate your nervous system

568
00:32:43,585 --> 00:32:44,905
is really, really important.

569
00:32:45,345 --> 00:32:46,585
When we can do that.

570
00:32:47,315 --> 00:32:50,865
And we're in that, that green
circle is the more dominant one.

571
00:32:51,525 --> 00:32:56,905
We can access our wisdom because we're not
in the threat space when we're in threat.

572
00:32:57,425 --> 00:33:01,355
All we're interested in is
get safe, get safe, get safe.

573
00:33:02,465 --> 00:33:04,265
It doesn't really matter how we do that.

574
00:33:04,645 --> 00:33:05,995
We just need to get safe.

575
00:33:06,185 --> 00:33:12,055
Now, if you're in a situation that is
dangerous and you need to run away, Get

576
00:33:12,055 --> 00:33:14,305
safe, run away is a really great idea.

577
00:33:15,325 --> 00:33:19,465
If you're fearful of something
that may not actually be a reality,

578
00:33:19,655 --> 00:33:22,185
running away from it probably
isn't going to be the most helpful.

579
00:33:23,015 --> 00:33:23,415
Yeah.

580
00:33:23,745 --> 00:33:27,865
Like we were talking about earlier,
avoiding conversations about death

581
00:33:28,295 --> 00:33:31,835
with your family or your business
partners or your colleagues.

582
00:33:32,105 --> 00:33:36,165
If you're running away from those
conversations, that's because

583
00:33:36,175 --> 00:33:37,945
threat is making the decision.

584
00:33:38,195 --> 00:33:41,535
Wisdom would more likely be telling you.

585
00:33:42,500 --> 00:33:45,260
Sit down and have the
conversation about what you want.

586
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:50,360
Sit down and have the conversation
around where the keys to the thing is.

587
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,550
Have the conversation around where are
the important documents I might need.

588
00:33:55,810 --> 00:33:59,430
I run a building company with my husband
and then I've got my own business.

589
00:33:59,780 --> 00:34:04,670
And I'm always trying to have these
conversations with my husband and son.

590
00:34:05,550 --> 00:34:09,170
I get rolled eyes sometimes, but I
persist because I know it's important.

591
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:15,160
Because I've sat with people in such
distress, that had they had these

592
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:22,160
conversations, yes they would be grieving,
but their suffering wouldn't be layer upon

593
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:26,000
layer because of the things that they now
have to try and figure out on their own.

594
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:33,330
And I sat down with my husband and I did
up an Excel spreadsheet and literally

595
00:34:33,330 --> 00:34:37,930
listed all of our things, who we have
insurance with, who we have this with,

596
00:34:37,930 --> 00:34:42,290
who we have that, what are the policy
numbers, what are the contact numbers.

597
00:34:42,780 --> 00:34:44,550
And I said to him, we'll
just keep this updated.

598
00:34:45,500 --> 00:34:49,090
We'll have a shared copy, and if
anything happens to one or the other

599
00:34:49,090 --> 00:34:51,260
of us, at least we've got that.

600
00:34:51,510 --> 00:34:51,940
It's so

601
00:34:51,940 --> 00:34:55,150
interesting that you say that
because I have always grown up

602
00:34:55,170 --> 00:34:56,950
with that sort of documentation.

603
00:34:57,030 --> 00:35:01,860
My mother was a very organized woman
and president of many committees and

604
00:35:02,260 --> 00:35:06,850
local health centers, and my father
was a clerk of the coroner's court.

605
00:35:06,955 --> 00:35:11,585
So, for me, I just thought that was
normal, you know, and my, my other

606
00:35:11,585 --> 00:35:15,535
siblings, you know, they all joined the
forces, so they naturally, you know,

607
00:35:15,535 --> 00:35:18,915
I think that within the second day of
joining any armed force in Australia,

608
00:35:18,915 --> 00:35:20,265
you have to actually write a will.

609
00:35:20,265 --> 00:35:23,995
That's just a fait accompli,
but, you know, it wasn't until,

610
00:35:24,325 --> 00:35:27,975
and my husband, I have to you
know, apologize in advance again.

611
00:35:28,325 --> 00:35:33,305
I use him as the example that he had
no idea when I met him, you know, about

612
00:35:33,305 --> 00:35:38,955
that paperwork and what was required
and because, you know, documenting your

613
00:35:38,955 --> 00:35:45,145
wishes is so important and again, you
know, it was what we did with Roland

614
00:35:45,165 --> 00:35:48,835
that started off as an Excel spreadsheet
and I worked with his children.

615
00:35:48,835 --> 00:35:51,385
We worked through that Excel
spreadsheet that I had, you know,

616
00:35:51,835 --> 00:35:54,825
it's, what can I say, I was a
producer of events so, you know.

617
00:35:55,355 --> 00:35:57,075
the Excel spreadsheets, my love.

618
00:35:57,535 --> 00:36:01,665
And then that has what has been, you know,
turned into that critical info platform.

619
00:36:02,045 --> 00:36:07,975
So there is some way in which we can
guide people about what sort of documents

620
00:36:07,975 --> 00:36:12,775
they need, what sort of things they
need to consider, like even such things

621
00:36:12,805 --> 00:36:16,865
as you were mentioning pets before,
you know, pets are part of our family.

622
00:36:17,295 --> 00:36:19,525
So a lot of people.

623
00:36:19,835 --> 00:36:24,975
Forget that we have to also consider what
their care plans are and it's not just

624
00:36:24,985 --> 00:36:31,335
preparing for when we die Because you
know the perception what I find Sometimes

625
00:36:31,355 --> 00:36:36,225
is that when we talk about end of life
planning and advanced care planning people

626
00:36:36,245 --> 00:36:42,600
only think oh That's something that you
do when you get old, but I was hit from

627
00:36:42,660 --> 00:36:46,810
behind on my way to work and that changed
my life and I had to go to hospital.

628
00:36:47,220 --> 00:36:51,100
So at any point in time, we could
come across situations where we

629
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:56,260
have an illness or we find ourselves
in hospital or even overseas.

630
00:36:56,270 --> 00:37:00,710
You know, we made sure that our son,
before he went overseas, he actually

631
00:37:00,710 --> 00:37:02,330
completed all of this information.

632
00:37:02,740 --> 00:37:06,320
So, if we needed to assist
him with anything while he was

633
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:07,800
overseas, we could do that.

634
00:37:08,300 --> 00:37:12,870
And I think that when, like you were
saying, people get caught up in the idea

635
00:37:12,870 --> 00:37:17,940
of, well, I'm not going to die now, or
I'm not old enough to plan, all of these

636
00:37:17,950 --> 00:37:23,420
things that the conversations we have
in our head, but in reality, it should

637
00:37:23,420 --> 00:37:27,545
just be like, If you run a business,
you have public liability insurance,

638
00:37:27,605 --> 00:37:29,915
you know, standard stock standard thing.

639
00:37:30,325 --> 00:37:34,775
So if you run a business, you
actually have a succession plan.

640
00:37:34,955 --> 00:37:41,705
So everyone around you knows that you
actually have this many websites that

641
00:37:41,705 --> 00:37:46,565
you manage, this many domains, you
know, where's your insurance policy.

642
00:37:46,785 --> 00:37:50,225
Do you have someone that can make
decisions if you can't make those

643
00:37:50,225 --> 00:37:54,615
decisions for your business, you know,
have those conversations like you were

644
00:37:54,615 --> 00:37:56,555
saying your husband and you have had.

645
00:37:57,055 --> 00:38:01,605
Yeah, I think that that it really
is important that we don't leave it.

646
00:38:02,525 --> 00:38:05,125
Until we think that we're
at the age that we need it.

647
00:38:05,295 --> 00:38:09,305
Yeah, and I think some of the other
stuff is, that there is this thing

648
00:38:09,305 --> 00:38:10,385
of, you know, it won't happen to me.

649
00:38:10,405 --> 00:38:13,205
Well, I mean, we all know it will
happen to us, but we think, oh,

650
00:38:13,205 --> 00:38:16,655
it won't happen to me for another
however many decades, hopefully.

651
00:38:16,865 --> 00:38:18,945
Or, you know, this doesn't
need to be done now.

652
00:38:19,175 --> 00:38:24,445
But it can also be That for some people
thinking about this stuff triggers

653
00:38:24,445 --> 00:38:26,745
grief and they don't want to go there.

654
00:38:27,085 --> 00:38:32,165
So I would say, like, if that's the
case, do what you can to address that.

655
00:38:32,195 --> 00:38:36,015
Whether that's by yourself or whether
that's with a helping professional.

656
00:38:36,285 --> 00:38:38,315
And bring that sense of compassion.

657
00:38:38,585 --> 00:38:40,985
Acknowledge for yourself,
this is really hard.

658
00:38:42,025 --> 00:38:45,715
When I think about talking about
death with my family, like I know

659
00:38:45,715 --> 00:38:53,065
for me, if I think about my son in
these topics, I can feel it now, I get

660
00:38:53,065 --> 00:38:55,225
this overwhelming sense of sadness.

661
00:38:55,385 --> 00:38:58,675
I don't want to die and leave him and
I certainly don't want him to die.

662
00:38:58,885 --> 00:39:05,495
So that for me, I know is something
that I'm like, okay, if I'm going to

663
00:39:05,495 --> 00:39:09,435
address things around that, that's
going to be really challenging

664
00:39:09,505 --> 00:39:11,175
and it's going to feel painful.

665
00:39:11,660 --> 00:39:13,410
And I can still do that.

666
00:39:13,500 --> 00:39:18,190
I can be with myself in a way that
allows me to be sensitive to the

667
00:39:18,190 --> 00:39:19,800
suffering that I'm experiencing.

668
00:39:20,250 --> 00:39:22,990
So maybe that's something I
need to do a bit more gently,

669
00:39:22,990 --> 00:39:24,790
a bit slower, or over time.

670
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,630
But I can still do it, because
if I don't do the thing, then

671
00:39:29,630 --> 00:39:31,360
I'm not alleviating suffering.

672
00:39:31,490 --> 00:39:34,590
I'm actually potentially creating
more suffering down the track.

673
00:39:35,900 --> 00:39:39,270
I think this is, for me, where
compassion is just so powerful.

674
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:44,280
And in your business, you know, if
you don't want to think about, or

675
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,880
if thinking about, well, if I step
away, like you said, I blocked out

676
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:52,160
your calendar for a month, some
people that might just be paralyzing.

677
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:53,440
It's like, well, I can't do that.

678
00:39:53,610 --> 00:39:56,020
And it's like, okay, that's a month.

679
00:39:56,420 --> 00:39:58,700
Think about what that's
going to mean in a year.

680
00:39:59,010 --> 00:40:04,710
If you had to pay somebody to do some
of the tasks so you could take the

681
00:40:04,710 --> 00:40:08,969
month, if you're in a position to do
so, what will that mean in 12 months?

682
00:40:09,180 --> 00:40:13,030
Because if you push through that month
when you really needed to take that time

683
00:40:13,030 --> 00:40:17,120
for yourself, then in 12 months, maybe
you don't have a business or maybe you

684
00:40:17,130 --> 00:40:20,170
have a business, but you're hanging on
by the skin of your teeth because you're

685
00:40:20,170 --> 00:40:22,260
just feeling completely burnt out.

686
00:40:22,510 --> 00:40:25,650
So we have to think past the right now.

687
00:40:25,820 --> 00:40:26,600
It's kind of both.

688
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,574
It's like what needs to happen right now.

689
00:40:29,295 --> 00:40:33,235
That's going to be helpful and prevent
further suffering in the future.

690
00:40:33,505 --> 00:40:38,045
Yeah, and it's, it just reminded
me of something else while you were

691
00:40:38,045 --> 00:40:42,995
talking then, Dr. Hayley, was, you
know, when I was working at the,

692
00:40:43,005 --> 00:40:46,245
the Royal Botanic Gardens, I'd been
there for 13 years, I thought it

693
00:40:46,245 --> 00:40:49,385
was my life and it was going to be.

694
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:50,850
My forever job.

695
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:52,100
Absolutely loved it.

696
00:40:53,250 --> 00:40:55,270
And It was my focus.

697
00:40:55,290 --> 00:40:56,560
It was my one and all.

698
00:40:56,590 --> 00:40:59,870
It would be something that I
didn't mind working, you know.

699
00:40:59,990 --> 00:41:03,260
And certainly event management is
definitely a flight or fight, um,

700
00:41:03,350 --> 00:41:06,980
constant state that you're in with
managing, uh, managing events.

701
00:41:06,990 --> 00:41:10,880
But, you know, I, I thought it was
something that I'd be doing forever.

702
00:41:12,090 --> 00:41:17,380
But something that I had to come to
realize and was a really challenging

703
00:41:17,380 --> 00:41:19,790
thing for me is that I'm replaceable.

704
00:41:21,020 --> 00:41:25,110
And the fact that, you know, that job's
still there, someone else has filled

705
00:41:25,110 --> 00:41:29,990
it, and someone else I'm sure is doing
a very good job of it, but I had to come

706
00:41:29,990 --> 00:41:34,385
to the realisation that It wasn't the
be all and end all when it come, like

707
00:41:34,385 --> 00:41:38,725
when you're brought back to the base
element of what matters and your health

708
00:41:38,725 --> 00:41:40,845
and you have to make those choices.

709
00:41:41,005 --> 00:41:43,885
And I'm sure when you had your
burnout, you had a very similar

710
00:41:43,885 --> 00:41:47,165
process that you had to go through
about what you valued in life.

711
00:41:47,515 --> 00:41:48,415
Oh, absolutely.

712
00:41:48,485 --> 00:41:52,885
And when you come back to that, you
know, I had to realize that and grieve

713
00:41:52,895 --> 00:41:57,975
for the fact that I was replaceable and
I did have to leave my job and what I

714
00:41:57,995 --> 00:42:03,525
thought defined me and made me who I
was because I thought that I was defined

715
00:42:03,535 --> 00:42:09,445
by that particular role and I think I
held on to that really closely because

716
00:42:09,465 --> 00:42:14,585
that was my first job that I had after
I went back to work after I had had a

717
00:42:14,585 --> 00:42:21,715
child so I think that that also made that
stronger for me that that defined me.

718
00:42:22,260 --> 00:42:27,730
And then when I hear numerous
conversations that you hear within this

719
00:42:27,730 --> 00:42:34,450
industry, is that no one has ever said in
the last few, you know, months of their

720
00:42:34,450 --> 00:42:40,380
life, that, It was their job that they
loved the most or that they wanted their

721
00:42:40,380 --> 00:42:45,090
job around them when they were dying or
they were given a life limiting illness.

722
00:42:45,570 --> 00:42:48,260
It always comes down
to family and friends.

723
00:42:48,910 --> 00:42:52,550
Absolutely, nobody's like, I wish
I'd spent another hour in the office.

724
00:42:55,860 --> 00:42:58,660
Might say, I wish I'd spent another
hour sitting on the beach watching

725
00:42:58,660 --> 00:43:04,100
the sunset, but not, I wish I'd
spent another hour in the office.

726
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:05,210
Absolutely.

727
00:43:05,220 --> 00:43:08,300
It's about the experiences
and the relationships and the

728
00:43:08,300 --> 00:43:09,830
connections that we have in life.

729
00:43:09,870 --> 00:43:12,890
I think all the research points to
that, but I think you raise a really

730
00:43:12,890 --> 00:43:15,010
interesting point around identity as well.

731
00:43:15,010 --> 00:43:18,309
Certainly for me with my
burnout, that shook my identity

732
00:43:18,309 --> 00:43:19,610
when I had chronic illness.

733
00:43:19,620 --> 00:43:20,680
It's like, what's that mean?

734
00:43:21,090 --> 00:43:23,220
I was then later identified as.

735
00:43:23,355 --> 00:43:26,305
Neurodivergent autism and ADHD at 52.

736
00:43:26,515 --> 00:43:30,455
So that was another identity thing
as well, which has been great.

737
00:43:30,945 --> 00:43:36,245
And then I did a lot of work around my
identity as a psychologist or clinical

738
00:43:36,245 --> 00:43:40,255
psychologist, because I knew that I
was starting to move away from that.

739
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:44,790
And had I not done that work, I
literally chose not to renew my

740
00:43:44,790 --> 00:43:47,110
registration in November of last year.

741
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:51,490
Had I not already done that work around
identity, I think the grief and loss

742
00:43:51,490 --> 00:43:53,110
around that would have been immense.

743
00:43:53,370 --> 00:43:57,870
Because I'd done the work,
I was able to move forward.

744
00:43:57,970 --> 00:44:00,260
I've been running two businesses,
and again, I don't ever

745
00:44:00,260 --> 00:44:01,370
want to be burnt out again.

746
00:44:01,370 --> 00:44:04,690
And I was realizing that that's
probably not the best way to do that.

747
00:44:05,340 --> 00:44:05,620
Yeah.

748
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,730
Because I wanted to go fully
in on my coaching and speaking.

749
00:44:08,955 --> 00:44:12,075
I did that work around letting
go of identity, which made that

750
00:44:12,075 --> 00:44:14,175
transition for me a lot smoother.

751
00:44:14,455 --> 00:44:17,945
Of course, there's some grief and
loss around having stepped away.

752
00:44:17,945 --> 00:44:21,375
I'd done, I'd worked really hard as a
single mom to become a psychologist.

753
00:44:21,375 --> 00:44:26,305
And I really loved being in that
industry and working with my clients,

754
00:44:26,755 --> 00:44:28,735
but that identity work was important.

755
00:44:28,785 --> 00:44:33,045
And as you were speaking, it made me
think about people who see themselves as.

756
00:44:33,885 --> 00:44:40,755
So and so's wife or so and so's husband
or I'm such and such's mother or parent

757
00:44:41,175 --> 00:44:46,965
and have these very narrow focus of
what what your role is in life and what

758
00:44:46,965 --> 00:44:52,345
I would say is Some of the work that I
think is really helpful as well is seeing

759
00:44:52,365 --> 00:44:59,235
how multifaceted you are And how many
identities you actually hold in the world?

760
00:45:00,135 --> 00:45:04,455
because then Say you're married
and your partner dies, then

761
00:45:04,455 --> 00:45:06,765
you haven't lost your identity.

762
00:45:07,225 --> 00:45:12,445
If the only identity you held on
to was I am his wife or her wife.

763
00:45:12,665 --> 00:45:16,645
I think that's an important
one as well, which again can

764
00:45:16,745 --> 00:45:18,925
give us somewhere to turn to.

765
00:45:19,555 --> 00:45:26,285
I'm also these things, so I can grieve
this, and I can grieve this person, and

766
00:45:26,285 --> 00:45:28,115
I can grieve this part of my identity.

767
00:45:29,645 --> 00:45:31,355
And I've got all this to look to as well.

768
00:45:32,125 --> 00:45:34,165
Yeah, that's a, that's
a great way to view it.

769
00:45:34,245 --> 00:45:41,625
And another way in which I found my
way to move forward, you know, and by

770
00:45:41,625 --> 00:45:43,465
no means did this happen overnight.

771
00:45:43,465 --> 00:45:49,135
Like I think I worked on all of this for
quite a few years during the process and

772
00:45:49,515 --> 00:45:54,625
something that was key when I did a 16
week rehab program at Victorian Rehab

773
00:45:54,625 --> 00:46:01,350
Centre and where they Really bring you
back to basics and the basics of you know,

774
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,550
any human is really what are your values?

775
00:46:04,830 --> 00:46:06,810
You know, what do you value in life?

776
00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:11,540
And I do feel like I've kind of
been completely broken down and then

777
00:46:11,550 --> 00:46:13,150
had to be put back together again.

778
00:46:13,670 --> 00:46:18,520
And so starting at my values was a
great place and I've spoken about

779
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:23,895
this a bit because My values were
so strong and I aligned myself with

780
00:46:23,895 --> 00:46:28,755
them at the gardens and that was the
work that satisfied my values there.

781
00:46:29,185 --> 00:46:35,325
So I knew that whatever I had to do
moving forward had to be complimentary

782
00:46:35,325 --> 00:46:39,925
and accommodate my and be flexible
with my physical needs and managing

783
00:46:39,925 --> 00:46:44,545
my chronic pain, but it had to
really tick my boxes on my values.

784
00:46:44,615 --> 00:46:45,205
Absolutely.

785
00:46:45,325 --> 00:46:48,815
And I found that that work
was Unbelievable, because

786
00:46:48,815 --> 00:46:50,165
you really do work out,

787
00:46:50,745 --> 00:46:51,745
you know, what matters.

788
00:46:51,805 --> 00:46:54,775
Absolutely, and they're your
signposts for life, right?

789
00:46:54,845 --> 00:46:58,395
I did a lot of work around that
in my work as a psychologist,

790
00:46:58,445 --> 00:47:01,785
and I've absolutely brought that
into the work I do in coaching.

791
00:47:02,155 --> 00:47:06,135
I run a group coaching program for women
business owners, and a part of that,

792
00:47:06,195 --> 00:47:10,586
we talk about, one of the modules in
that is all around values, because it

793
00:47:10,586 --> 00:47:14,449
really does bring you home to yourself,
and it gives you those signposts.

794
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,280
So then when you're making decisions,
you've got something to come back

795
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:22,020
to that ear of like, okay, what
is important and meaningful to me?

796
00:47:22,230 --> 00:47:25,020
And how does this thing align with.

797
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,960
What is important and meaningful
to me and therefore do I

798
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:29,440
want to say yes or no to it?

799
00:47:29,740 --> 00:47:31,100
Yeah, it really does.

800
00:47:31,180 --> 00:47:34,770
Look, I think that there's just
so many gold nuggets that you've

801
00:47:34,770 --> 00:47:36,940
been able to share today, Dr.

802
00:47:36,940 --> 00:47:37,330
Hayley.

803
00:47:37,700 --> 00:47:42,870
Is there anything else that you'd like
to share about the work that you do

804
00:47:42,890 --> 00:47:47,590
and you know, just supporting people
that might find themselves grieving,

805
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,470
you know, really in any, any form?

806
00:47:50,850 --> 00:47:55,005
I think the first thing I would
say is Let's all just be a bit kind

807
00:47:55,005 --> 00:47:56,955
to each other and to ourselves.

808
00:47:57,135 --> 00:47:59,145
'cause the world absolutely
needs that right now.

809
00:47:59,385 --> 00:47:59,445
yeah.

810
00:48:00,195 --> 00:48:03,765
Whether you're grieving or not, you know,
we, we never know what people are going

811
00:48:03,765 --> 00:48:08,825
through and people could be grieving
and in workplaces, and if you are a

812
00:48:08,825 --> 00:48:13,115
business owner and you have staff, I
think you know, that flow of compassion

813
00:48:13,115 --> 00:48:18,005
to others is a really important one,
because being sensitive to the suffering

814
00:48:18,005 --> 00:48:22,165
of the people that work for you or
with you is really, really important.

815
00:48:22,555 --> 00:48:24,565
And, you know, that could be a
whole other episode, couldn't it?

816
00:48:24,565 --> 00:48:25,925
Talking about those sort of things.

817
00:48:25,925 --> 00:48:30,245
But I think just being aware that
we don't always know what's going

818
00:48:30,245 --> 00:48:34,185
on for people, go gently with
yourself, go gently with other people.

819
00:48:35,095 --> 00:48:38,995
And honestly, I can't, I can't speak
highly enough about, I am, you know,

820
00:48:39,585 --> 00:48:43,805
I'm so passionate about compassion
because I know the difference that

821
00:48:43,805 --> 00:48:45,665
it has made, not only in my life.

822
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,410
Personally, professionally, but in
the life of so many of my clients,

823
00:48:49,830 --> 00:48:53,170
you know, seeing the difference in
somebody when they start to bring

824
00:48:53,170 --> 00:48:55,190
this into their life is fantastic.

825
00:48:55,810 --> 00:48:58,700
And seeing the difference, the
way we can do things differently

826
00:48:58,710 --> 00:49:03,130
in our business when we have this
lens is really helpful as well.

827
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:05,926
It's just been an absolute
pleasure talking to you.

828
00:49:05,926 --> 00:49:09,900
And I think the work that you're
doing is so valuable and so needed.

829
00:49:10,580 --> 00:49:14,240
And I hope this has
helped people think about.

830
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:19,180
you know, having these conversations
with loved ones or work colleagues

831
00:49:19,180 --> 00:49:20,710
or whoever it might need to be.

832
00:49:21,380 --> 00:49:27,080
And that we can do things today that will
help prevent suffering in the future.

833
00:49:27,370 --> 00:49:29,320
That's a beautiful way to end.

834
00:49:29,740 --> 00:49:32,170
Thank you so much for being
with us today, Dr. Hayley.

835
00:49:32,610 --> 00:49:32,940
My

836
00:49:32,950 --> 00:49:33,680
absolute pleasure.

837
00:49:33,700 --> 00:49:34,330
Thank you.