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I thought I'll go to an
exhumation and just stomach that

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and see what it's all about.

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And as the body came up out of the
ground, it was still quite intact.

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It was very strange sight, and the person
was wearing the suit that they'd been

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buried in, even though the body had
been in the ground for over 10 years.

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I mean, the skeletal remains was.

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Pretty grizzly, but the clothes
the person was wearing or had been

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buried in, were still quite intact.

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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a
podcast encouraging open conversations

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about dying and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death back to life
because while you may not be ready to die.

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At least you can be prepared.

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Don't be caught dead.

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Acknowledges the lands of the
Coolen nations and recognizes their

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connection to land, sea, and community.

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We pay our respects to their elders
past, present, and emerging, and

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extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Today I have with me Hamish Coates.

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Hamish is a practicing and registered
landscape architect with over 20

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years experience in a diverse number
of roles working across a variety

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of landscape types in Victoria.

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Hamish has undertaken a variety
of projects ranging from master

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plans and strategic planning to.

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Detailed design and construction,
community engagement

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and project management.

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Hamish has taught subjects at
the University of Melbourne and

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RMIT and holds a degree in fine
arts with a major in sculpture.

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Hamish joined Greater Melbourne
Cemeteries Trust in 2016 with a focus

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to develop cemeteries as unique and
culturally diverse places that benefit

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the wider community and environment.

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Hamish is now their principal
designer, and I'm so excited to

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have you with us today, Hamish.

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Thanks very much, Catherine.

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It's really good to be here.

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Hamish, I saw you speak last year
at Open Houses Symposium, which I

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do love entitled Six Feet Under.

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And that was quite the title.

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And what surprised me is the amount
consideration goes into, so how did.

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Well, I guess I've been practicing for
some time now and what I've learned in

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life as in profession is never say never.

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So I never thought that I would
end up in cemeteries when I

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first started out my career.

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But I was in business.

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I was running a small consultancy
at one stage and I was contacted by

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another landscape architect who was
winding down his company and they

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did a bit of cemetery work as well.

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So he asked me just to
help him finish off.

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Some jobs so he could
wind up his business.

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But that was kind of prolonged
because I took an interest in that

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and we got on quite well together.

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So it sort of went on a little
bit longer than we both thought.

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But that gave me a big introduction
into the cemetery world.

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And so that culminated once he.

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Departed was an invitation from the
Southern Metropolitan Cemeteries Trust

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to redesign or to prepare a master
plan for the one part of their site at

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Springvale, which I thought was just
a, an absolutely fantastic project.

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And it was like a. Invited competition.

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So it was like going back to school again.

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You know, the hats, you know, the paper
and pens were out and the ideas were

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flowing, and we really got stuck into
what cemeteries spaces could be and how

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they might function into the future.

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And so at that point, I really started to.

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To learn, learn a lot about cemeteries.

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Um, didn't win the
competition, but that's okay.

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What that demonstrate to me that it
was a really fertile space to be in

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and it really peaked my interests.

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And what was it, do you think
that peaked your interest, Hamish?

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Well, I

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think

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that

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I'd been designing landscapes for.

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All sort of applications, parks,
streetscapes, management plans,

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private and commercial spaces as well.

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And there was always seemed to be
a little bit of meaning, I guess

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lacking in that to some extent.

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I. Prefer to just design in the public
realm rather than the private or

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commercial one, just because I think
we're dealing with nature and that's, you

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know, everyone has a right to access that.

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And so any kind of public or landscape
park or streetscape, for example, has

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a lot more application and meaning to
the everyday person, and that gives

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me a great deal of satisfaction.

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The venture into the cemeteries
world though, just took it one step

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further because it was really about
your own sort of mortality and.

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Others as well.

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Of course, and the question about death
and dying and cemeteries being spaces

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primarily for the living was a, you
know, a really engaging kind of conundrum

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and duality and all that kind of thing
that, that really inspired me to think

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more about what we do for a living and
how we live and how we design, how we.

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Access our spaces, how we interact
with nature and what opportunities

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there are to do that and so forth.

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So yeah, begun quite a, an investigation
over the years from Project to Project.

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And what's really interesting is that
point that you just raised is that

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cemeteries, most people would think
about them as a place for the dead,

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but they're already taken care of.

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It really is a place for
the living, isn't it?

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Absolutely.

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That's right.

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Look, there was one site we have out in
the outer suburbs, and I dunno how true

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this story is, but I did hear that the
neighboring developer who was building a

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housing estate sort of asked us, can you
move your cemetery please, because you

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know you're gonna scare off my customers.

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But.

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You know, a cemetery is probably
the best maybe you could have.

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But it sort of underlined the fact
that people's perceptions of cemeteries

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are still very much about ghosts and
zombies and you know, terrible, dark,

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gothic kind of iterations of that.

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And I guess that was a bit of a starting
point for the way I began to investigate

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design was that, you know, they aren't
these scary places surrounded by.

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High walls and gates.

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And I guess that sort of
was the departure point.

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Ferro wanted to go with cemeteries,
which was to open them up and make

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them more publicly accessible.

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And that's really interesting because
most people, you know, they have

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very limited exposure to cemeteries.

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Most people don't even really be buried.

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Most people work commonly
cremated nowadays.

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The concept of a cemetery is perhaps your
high walls, your old tombstones, things

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are falling apart, overgrown grass bits,
you know, areas that we don't really

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wanna hang around in very long, do we?

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Hamish?

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You know, that's the idea.

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Not really.

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No.

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I think all landscape architects
really trying to make the.

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Open spaces as aesthetically
pleasing and as inviting as possible.

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And you know, cemeteries designed by
landscape architects are no exception.

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You know, and I think that image
of cemeteries, I think we've got

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Hollywood to thank for that primarily.

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Yeah,

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exactly.

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So when you, when you
embarked on this sort of.

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From public space in more of a, an
open park, verges on the side of

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roads, et cetera, that sort of space.

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And you moved over to
working within cemeteries.

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What were the things that sparked
you going, wow, I didn't know that,

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or I hadn't considered that, or,

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oh, I just think it was
the way the operate.

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At GMCT where I work, we have a big
works crew and operations crew, and they

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bury the bodies in a particular way.

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I just thought, you know, like anyone
else, you'd just dig a hole and

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throw people in and that was that.

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And that's pretty much what happens.

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But there are all sorts of nuances
to that when it comes to operations.

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For example, having an open space
where we dig lots of little holes

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isn't not much good for drainage.

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So you could imagine.

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Water mixed with a body and then sort
of covered over with giant slabs of

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granite and marble, and the imagination
goes quite wilder underneath.

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And you sort of think, well, we have to
design for that because we get complaints

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from flooding and we get complaints about.

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Paths and access and how machines actually
access the site in order to dig the grave.

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And so all these tiny little
considerations come to the fore.

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So that actually determines the way
you put pen to paper and, and draw

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the lines and make these allowances.

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So it's not all just about making
a nice space, but it's gotta be a

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very much a functional one as well,

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because

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landscape.

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Must also also take into consideration
mowing and whipper snipping and the

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type of foliage and plants that you're
actually placing in the beds nearby

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and those sorts of considerations.

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Absolutely.

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When I first arrived at GMCT, and it
still exists all these years later,

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is that the tension between say a
tree and a grave space is really.

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Significant because if you plant a
tree, then it takes up valuable space

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where we can dig a hole and put a body.

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And so space in the cemetery is a
very acute and finite sub entity.

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And the question of how we're gonna
provide for burial space in the

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future is a really big question
that's very difficult to answer.

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We take that a bit further and
we have to sell the graves.

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And so we've gotta make them
aesthetically beautiful.

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And what people really like
is a garden type environment.

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And I work at Faulkner Cemetery,
that's where I'm based, and that's

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a very old historic cemetery.

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And it has a mature.

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Landscape and garden around it, and
just the casual interactions I have

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on occasion with visitors always
remark that what a beautiful space

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it is and how comforted they feel.

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And I, I sort of really just put
that down to the fact that it's

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landscape and garden doing its.

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Business, you know,
and providing all that.

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So the tension between landscape
and Graves is still there.

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So it's our task and challenge
to make that all fit together.

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And can you tell us a little bit
about what are the differences between

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the sites that you're currently
managing through Greater Metropolitan?

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Well, we take care of over 600
hectares of green space right across

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the northern parts of Melbourne.

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The Metropolitan Melbourne, and that
goes from the eastern region over from

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Hillsville and Lilydale down to Emerald.

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And then as you move west, it goes
through Temple Sto and Forkner and

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Northern Memorial Parks, and then further
over to the West through Keilor and

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Altona and Werribee and Williamstown.

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That's a big space.

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It's massive.

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Yeah.

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So yeah, it's a lot of driving it on
occasion from one side, I could imagine.

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But what that means is that
we've got quite a vast variety

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of landscape and soil types.

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So over in the yeast it's quite hilly and,
uh, soils generally speaking are less.

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Clay like and less interactive.

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So as you move over to the west, there's
quite a high clay content in the soil.

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So that means that during summer
it dries and cracks, and in

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the winter it's quite plastic.

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So there's a lot of movement.

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They're caught the reactive soil.

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So when we build a grave on a. Concrete
foundation, you know, we have to

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take that sub soil conditions into
consideration because it means that

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every site is different and that we
can't just simply take one methodology

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and just simply apply it to another.

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Each new investigation is.

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Exactly that.

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It's new.

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You're starting from scratch again,
and you've just really gotta unpack

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00:12:00,245 --> 00:12:01,895
everything we can about the site.

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And tell me what was the 2016 that
you started with Greater Metropolitan,

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and during that time, what have you
seen as the changes in your role and

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the sort of work that you are doing?

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If you can talk me through what
you know, your role involves.

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Yeah.

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Well I, I started out there as a senior
landscape architect and it was quite.

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Quite small.

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I think there was only about three of us.

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Not that there's much more
than that now, but the level of

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thinking, I think, and the level of
application was very challenging.

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GMCT, like.

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Other Class A cemeteries
are self-funded entities.

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So we have to, in order to fund our
enterprise, we have to sell graves.

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So it's a business for
all intents, purpose.

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It's a not-for-profit one as it is,
but it just means that we have to do,

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make sort of commercial decisions.

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About that, but that often means
just taking a space and laying

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out a grid and trying to maximize
yield as best we can in order to

235
00:12:59,275 --> 00:13:02,605
maximize our revenue opportunities.

236
00:13:02,665 --> 00:13:06,115
Because when a person or a
family member buys a grave,

237
00:13:06,175 --> 00:13:08,575
we maintain it in perpetuity.

238
00:13:08,995 --> 00:13:12,865
So it means we'll mow the lawns
and whip a snip, as you say, and

239
00:13:12,925 --> 00:13:16,765
take care of everything other
than the headstone forever.

240
00:13:17,065 --> 00:13:18,535
So that's kind of where the money goes in.

241
00:13:18,535 --> 00:13:23,005
So we've got this kind of big cycle of
maintenance and purchase, but at the same

242
00:13:23,005 --> 00:13:28,105
time, over the last 10 or so years, the
advent of climate change is something

243
00:13:28,105 --> 00:13:29,845
that we just can't ignore anymore.

244
00:13:29,845 --> 00:13:34,765
So it means our practices and our
processes need to be more sort of on point

245
00:13:34,975 --> 00:13:40,075
about sustainability and how do we treat
the environment and the fact that we know

246
00:13:40,075 --> 00:13:45,775
that planting trees and planted gardens
lowers the heat island effect and sort of.

247
00:13:46,105 --> 00:13:49,195
Eats up the carbon and
just provides us with.

248
00:13:49,515 --> 00:13:54,015
Better quality of air and to breathe
and cleaner drinking water, all that

249
00:13:54,015 --> 00:13:58,485
kind of thing, as well as just lift
the spirit and gives us a nice kind

250
00:13:58,485 --> 00:14:01,305
of charge, mental charge as well.

251
00:14:01,905 --> 00:14:05,110
So these ideas now we're
trying to play more with.

252
00:14:05,954 --> 00:14:10,454
And argue and convince that if we can
incorporate these kinds of measures

253
00:14:10,725 --> 00:14:15,255
at the expense of let's say a, a
yield or a maximum revenue income,

254
00:14:15,255 --> 00:14:17,775
then we'll be on the right path.

255
00:14:17,775 --> 00:14:19,305
But it is incredibly challenging.

256
00:14:19,305 --> 00:14:23,625
I can see both sides of the argument and
often we're just caught in the middle.

257
00:14:23,625 --> 00:14:23,715
And

258
00:14:24,135 --> 00:14:26,775
it's interesting because that
was the thing that really

259
00:14:26,775 --> 00:14:30,285
did presentation year open.

260
00:14:31,810 --> 00:14:35,709
That, you know, my background has, has
come from 13 years at the Royal Botanic

261
00:14:35,709 --> 00:14:38,020
Gardens at both Cranburn and Melbourne.

262
00:14:38,020 --> 00:14:43,329
So I was very sympathetic of those
challenges of heritage sites.

263
00:14:43,334 --> 00:14:43,584
Mm-hmm.

264
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:49,300
And then newly designed landscapes that
you, you have, and you have the beauty of.

265
00:14:49,345 --> 00:14:52,975
Both of those in your role, and
we'll talk a little bit more

266
00:14:52,975 --> 00:14:54,925
about that and Harkness shortly.

267
00:14:55,015 --> 00:14:59,155
But also what struck me was,
oh my goodness, that's right.

268
00:14:59,215 --> 00:15:04,075
It's real estate and you have to manage
that in amongst, you know, the biosecurity

269
00:15:04,075 --> 00:15:09,295
of it, the uptake, keep the climate
change considerations, the sustainability.

270
00:15:09,970 --> 00:15:12,910
That's a whole other element
that I never had to think of

271
00:15:12,910 --> 00:15:14,380
when dealing with green space.

272
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:15,280
No, that's right.

273
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,660
So as a landscape architect, we just
treat the site as another site to be

274
00:15:19,660 --> 00:15:25,330
designed and rather than think about it
being specifically a cemetery, that's

275
00:15:25,390 --> 00:15:27,400
the context that we're designing in.

276
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,370
So we still need to apply all
the principles and measures of

277
00:15:30,370 --> 00:15:34,120
landscape architecture and urban
design and architecture, et cetera.

278
00:15:34,660 --> 00:15:38,710
But it's just in the context of
a cemetery and you know that.

279
00:15:38,875 --> 00:15:44,305
Single purpose idea of the cemetery is
very strong, but by applying landscape

280
00:15:44,365 --> 00:15:51,295
principles, then we're making them into
more multilayered or multipurpose spaces

281
00:15:51,595 --> 00:15:56,215
that can provide to the local communities
and local residents, et cetera.

282
00:15:56,905 --> 00:15:59,635
A public park does pretty
much the same thing, and it's

283
00:15:59,665 --> 00:16:01,645
fairly neutral in its purpose.

284
00:16:02,155 --> 00:16:05,365
You know, it doesn't vary bodies
or it doesn't have car parks,

285
00:16:05,365 --> 00:16:06,325
or it doesn't hold events.

286
00:16:06,325 --> 00:16:08,695
Generally, it's a bit
more versatile in that.

287
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:14,490
Respect, but assembly is our primary
purpose and our reason for being the trust

288
00:16:14,490 --> 00:16:20,520
is providing a, a service to the general
public to bury bodies and formalize,

289
00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:25,650
farewells, provide cremation services
and someplace to deposit the body.

290
00:16:26,310 --> 00:16:28,800
And so it's within that primary purpose.

291
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:33,420
We're saying, well, how can we continue
to do that while supporting that through

292
00:16:33,420 --> 00:16:38,310
its secondary objectives of creating
pleasant, aesthetic, nice and functional.

293
00:16:38,895 --> 00:16:41,715
And environmentally responsible spaces.

294
00:16:42,315 --> 00:16:46,845
So we've just written our open space
strategy and it talks about that

295
00:16:46,845 --> 00:16:49,815
kind of idea between the primary
and the secondary objectives.

296
00:16:50,985 --> 00:16:55,785
And just going back to the diversity
that you manage, can you sort of

297
00:16:55,785 --> 00:17:00,615
explain the differences in the sites
and perhaps talk about what you at.

298
00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,040
Yeah, look, when we, GMCT doesn't,
up until Harkness didn't have much

299
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,569
experience with large scale greenfield
sites, Greenfield site being one

300
00:17:12,569 --> 00:17:13,770
with absolutely nothing on it.

301
00:17:13,890 --> 00:17:17,220
It's just needs to be designed
and built from scratch.

302
00:17:17,985 --> 00:17:23,025
So we just thought that here's a
big opportunity to realize what a

303
00:17:23,025 --> 00:17:24,885
cemetery of the future could be.

304
00:17:25,065 --> 00:17:30,315
So rather than just simply drawing
up spaces and roads and gardens and

305
00:17:30,375 --> 00:17:34,995
landscapes as we would normally have done
in the past with some of our sites, or to

306
00:17:34,995 --> 00:17:39,885
continue on that methodology, we took it
as an opportunity to think about, well now

307
00:17:39,885 --> 00:17:42,195
into the 21st century, people's attitudes.

308
00:17:42,780 --> 00:17:44,910
A changing generations coming on.

309
00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:49,050
The climate crisis is all pervasive.

310
00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:51,360
There's more people around.

311
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,650
There's more consideration for the
social and the financial as well, because

312
00:17:55,650 --> 00:17:59,010
the business needs to understand how
it can be sustainable on that level.

313
00:17:59,730 --> 00:18:03,120
And of course, you know how we
can contribute more responsibly

314
00:18:03,270 --> 00:18:05,640
as a steward of the land, I guess.

315
00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:09,975
So this is where the conceptual approach
to Harkness was really important.

316
00:18:10,275 --> 00:18:11,805
To get right in the first place.

317
00:18:11,805 --> 00:18:17,085
And subsequently we undertook a fairly
substantial master planning exercise

318
00:18:17,175 --> 00:18:19,365
that sort of addressed all these issues.

319
00:18:19,875 --> 00:18:24,105
I think one of the major things we did
was to develop a vision for the site.

320
00:18:24,165 --> 00:18:27,315
So this was, we took a step
back and thought, okay.

321
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:28,860
Here's an opportunity.

322
00:18:29,190 --> 00:18:34,500
How do we realize this vision and what
kind of legacy do we wanna leave given

323
00:18:34,530 --> 00:18:36,630
that cemeteries are in perpetuity.

324
00:18:36,630 --> 00:18:40,770
So whatever we do now is going to
grow and develop forever effectively.

325
00:18:40,770 --> 00:18:45,030
So it's a pretty, pretty big and
responsible task, and something

326
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:46,535
felt like we had to get right.

327
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,630
And tell me what was involved
in that master planning process.

328
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:55,080
It's just like any kind of
normal master planning process.

329
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:59,490
We just look at the site and understand
what opportunities and constraints

330
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:04,320
exist, and then it's just about, you
know, typically just applying one layer

331
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:10,260
over the next that address ideas of
public access, open space, building

332
00:19:10,260 --> 00:19:12,135
a cemetery, who our visitors are.

333
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,990
And who our customers are as
we call them, and trying to

334
00:19:15,990 --> 00:19:18,120
understand the site as best we can.

335
00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:22,260
There's a very remnants of a,
an old creek line that runs

336
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:23,460
through the length of the site.

337
00:19:23,460 --> 00:19:28,020
So we took this as an opportunity
to be able to recharge that creek

338
00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:32,730
and increase and contribute to
the increase of biodiversity.

339
00:19:33,410 --> 00:19:38,480
And start to set up wildlife
corridors and try and find links

340
00:19:38,540 --> 00:19:41,300
between spaces that the park was in.

341
00:19:41,420 --> 00:19:48,440
And so also find opportunities for more
passive recreational pursuits and trying

342
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:53,300
to understand that where this site
was, for example, was on the outskirts

343
00:19:53,300 --> 00:19:59,570
of Western Melbourne, and so it's
typically known as housing developments.

344
00:19:59,590 --> 00:20:04,090
You know, as far as the eye can see, and
it's quite a thing, people's backyards

345
00:20:04,090 --> 00:20:07,570
are getting smaller, the houses are
getting bigger on the same plot of land.

346
00:20:07,570 --> 00:20:07,870
So,

347
00:20:08,409 --> 00:20:11,230
and it doesn't seem to matter
whether you're on the west or

348
00:20:11,230 --> 00:20:13,060
the east, the south or the north.

349
00:20:13,060 --> 00:20:16,090
It's a pretty much the same
story each direction, isn't it?

350
00:20:16,270 --> 00:20:17,050
Absolutely.

351
00:20:17,050 --> 00:20:20,709
So symmetry in this respect,
provided really, really unique.

352
00:20:21,010 --> 00:20:25,570
Opportunity to provide access to open
space and nature for the residents.

353
00:20:25,570 --> 00:20:29,710
They might not even think about ever
going visit or bury or enter someone

354
00:20:29,710 --> 00:20:33,730
there, but they could treat it pretty
much like a public park through,

355
00:20:33,820 --> 00:20:37,960
you know, active transport networks
and links and nature and forests and

356
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,629
history and flora and fauna, et cetera.

357
00:20:40,629 --> 00:20:42,190
So that was an ulterior.

358
00:20:42,940 --> 00:20:44,320
Side ulterior motive.

359
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,650
I guess that's what I was going to say,
that not only are we building a cemetery,

360
00:20:47,710 --> 00:20:53,140
but we're building a place that people who
don't have the space can access the space.

361
00:20:53,980 --> 00:20:58,605
And one of the things, if my memory
serves me correctly, Hamish, was it seems

362
00:20:58,605 --> 00:21:01,840
that the design incorporates multiple.

363
00:21:04,050 --> 00:21:07,530
A traditional cemetery generally has
one entry point, and it's generally

364
00:21:07,530 --> 00:21:12,450
very big and big gates, but you seem
to really have designed the idea of

365
00:21:12,450 --> 00:21:14,970
just making it part of the community.

366
00:21:15,105 --> 00:21:15,900
Well, well, that's right.

367
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,080
So the master plan has undertaken.

368
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,610
Several iterations and it's changed a lot.

369
00:21:22,879 --> 00:21:26,149
So I think what we tried
to maintain was access.

370
00:21:26,180 --> 00:21:29,960
I think we, you have to look at a block
of land like real estate in that respect

371
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,120
and find out, you know, what its value is.

372
00:21:32,180 --> 00:21:35,270
And I think if you bought a house
with two road frontages, then that's

373
00:21:35,270 --> 00:21:38,480
a pretty good thing, you know, because
you can access it from either end.

374
00:21:38,570 --> 00:21:41,629
And we have Bowman's Road going
up on one side and Harkness

375
00:21:41,629 --> 00:21:42,710
Road going up on the other.

376
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:46,220
So this means that, you know,
we can almost create a cyclical.

377
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,900
Idea and bring people in into
the park from both sides.

378
00:21:50,475 --> 00:21:52,425
And that's our long-term
proposition though.

379
00:21:52,425 --> 00:21:55,274
And we won't be able to achieve
that for some time to come.

380
00:21:55,875 --> 00:22:00,554
'cause I just wanna stress that it's
128 hectares, which is an enormous size

381
00:22:00,735 --> 00:22:06,794
block of land and we can't possibly build
the cemetery in one go, unfortunately.

382
00:22:06,794 --> 00:22:09,314
So we have to sort of
stage it out bit by bit.

383
00:22:09,824 --> 00:22:12,915
And over the next a hundred years,
it'll start to build and grow and

384
00:22:12,915 --> 00:22:13,425
evolve.

385
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,810
But that comes back to your point
about, I suppose, being the visionary

386
00:22:17,810 --> 00:22:22,909
that's actually looking at managing
a parcel of land in perpetuity.

387
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:27,590
And so your design has to
reflect that same longevity.

388
00:22:28,010 --> 00:22:28,699
Oh, absolutely.

389
00:22:28,699 --> 00:22:31,760
And this is where the value of a
master plan comes into it, because

390
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,600
the master plan is pretty much in
perpetuity when landscape architects

391
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,629
draw trees on bits of paper or computer.

392
00:22:38,629 --> 00:22:40,639
Now the circles are.

393
00:22:41,715 --> 00:22:46,965
Generally represented as the mature
canopy size, the, you know, but that

394
00:22:46,965 --> 00:22:49,395
actually takes at least 20, 30 years.

395
00:22:49,860 --> 00:22:51,600
Plus to reach that size.

396
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,590
So when we're drawing on paper, we're
drawing the end result effectively.

397
00:22:56,190 --> 00:22:59,280
And so if we work backwards from
that point, then we can work

398
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:00,899
out how we can get to progress.

399
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,670
So a method that I use is to
sort of look at nature and just

400
00:23:05,730 --> 00:23:08,280
reproduce the mechanisms of nature.

401
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,930
And that's just sort of splitting and
dividing and reproducing the same thing,

402
00:23:13,139 --> 00:23:15,000
much like cells reproduce, you know?

403
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,940
So it becomes a pattern
or an structure on how.

404
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:19,310
Develop each new section.

405
00:23:19,550 --> 00:23:25,340
And how much do you think that, given
your background has been in art and

406
00:23:25,340 --> 00:23:30,470
sculpture, you've obviously always been
able to see something in your mind's

407
00:23:30,470 --> 00:23:34,370
eye before it was created in a 3D form.

408
00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:39,140
How much has that ability to see
things like that helped you with,

409
00:23:39,140 --> 00:23:42,200
you know, designing basically a.

410
00:23:47,340 --> 00:23:52,620
Landscape architecture was quite creative
and it is, but it wasn't until I studied

411
00:23:52,620 --> 00:23:58,530
art that I realized what art actually can
do in a landscape architectural context.

412
00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:04,110
So a lot of designers feel that
they can apply art, but I think, you

413
00:24:04,110 --> 00:24:08,635
know, it's a art, a big question and
you get a. Talk about that forever

414
00:24:08,725 --> 00:24:11,095
as well, but it really helped me.

415
00:24:11,155 --> 00:24:12,265
I didn't wanna become an artist.

416
00:24:12,265 --> 00:24:14,515
I had no aspirations to
become a sculptor or anything.

417
00:24:14,515 --> 00:24:17,305
I just really wanted to know how to
become a better landscape architect.

418
00:24:17,845 --> 00:24:23,695
So it made me think about ideas in a
much more deeper and more broader sense.

419
00:24:23,965 --> 00:24:28,765
So when I could apply them to cemeteries,
I could sort of look about how art could

420
00:24:28,765 --> 00:24:33,625
provide meaning in a cemetery context
rather than just simply plop sculpture.

421
00:24:34,004 --> 00:24:38,804
In the landscape or build bright
colors or what have you, which

422
00:24:38,804 --> 00:24:42,915
I found was sort of lacking in
landscape architecture, that sort of

423
00:24:42,915 --> 00:24:45,764
relationship between art and the land.

424
00:24:45,794 --> 00:24:49,784
I'm a bit of a harsh critic, I think
at times, but sometimes I can't see

425
00:24:49,784 --> 00:24:54,875
those relationships, but I know that
they exist and I. Went to study art to

426
00:24:54,875 --> 00:24:56,764
find out what those relationships are.

427
00:24:57,185 --> 00:25:01,565
So when I'm doing cemeteries, now I'm
looking really at top to bottom and left

428
00:25:01,565 --> 00:25:06,185
to right breadth of how we can inject the
notion of art rather than the aesthetic

429
00:25:06,185 --> 00:25:09,095
of art, the notion of art and into.

430
00:25:09,575 --> 00:25:10,235
The design,

431
00:25:10,565 --> 00:25:14,315
and I'm assuming, or perhaps it would
be great to give us some examples of

432
00:25:14,315 --> 00:25:18,005
how you've tried to incorporate that
through your design work, Hamish.

433
00:25:18,305 --> 00:25:19,655
Well, it's not easy.

434
00:25:19,775 --> 00:25:23,915
The notion of landscape is very technical
as well, so we have to build and construct

435
00:25:24,305 --> 00:25:29,345
things and whatever we do has gotta
have a function and a capacity, and

436
00:25:29,345 --> 00:25:31,835
it's costed and it's very empirical.

437
00:25:32,025 --> 00:25:34,875
Whereas I always sort of
a bit jealous of artists.

438
00:25:34,875 --> 00:25:37,905
They can pretty much do what
they want and good luck to them.

439
00:25:37,905 --> 00:25:39,465
I reckon that's pretty fantastic.

440
00:25:39,465 --> 00:25:43,305
But at the same time, then if we're
going to put sort of a sculpture in in

441
00:25:43,305 --> 00:25:46,275
the land, then it has to reflect back.

442
00:25:46,755 --> 00:25:52,419
So we haven't really, I. Touched upon
that much at GMCT, although we have

443
00:25:52,449 --> 00:25:57,370
developed an art strategy and because I
really wanted to work out how to make a

444
00:25:57,429 --> 00:26:01,030
more high end, let's say for want of a
better word, a high end art collection.

445
00:26:01,030 --> 00:26:06,820
I think these institutions like
GMCT are well placed to have really.

446
00:26:07,335 --> 00:26:12,795
Great curated collections about death
and dying and in an artistic concept,

447
00:26:13,365 --> 00:26:18,735
but by, by double up the purpose of
sculpture, for example, our master plan

448
00:26:18,735 --> 00:26:23,504
for Lilydale, there's a nice high point,
and I thought if we were to put a really

449
00:26:23,565 --> 00:26:27,885
thoughtful sculpture, a big one on top
of that, not only would it be a really

450
00:26:27,975 --> 00:26:30,254
great defining piece, but it also would.

451
00:26:30,660 --> 00:26:32,490
Function as a bit of a landmark.

452
00:26:32,580 --> 00:26:33,030
Mm-hmm.

453
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:35,430
And a bit of a talking point in the area.

454
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,850
So everyone would then know, oh,
that sculpture, that's where the

455
00:26:38,850 --> 00:26:42,180
cemetery is, and that cemetery,
that's where the sculpture is.

456
00:26:42,180 --> 00:26:45,750
So, you know, it was a bit more
calculated like that, I guess.

457
00:26:46,110 --> 00:26:49,380
But, you know, we haven't got
anywhere close to doing that yet.

458
00:26:49,740 --> 00:26:51,720
But I think that as the design.

459
00:26:52,265 --> 00:26:57,215
Of Lily Dale sort of unfolds and unpacks,
then we'll find something appropriate.

460
00:26:57,575 --> 00:27:02,045
It's already masterplan and on paper,
so hopefully that's indelible and

461
00:27:02,045 --> 00:27:05,315
it means that we'll be able to fund
something like that in the future.

462
00:27:06,065 --> 00:27:11,255
And you touched previously just on
how there's community consultation

463
00:27:11,285 --> 00:27:13,115
and understanding the audience that.

464
00:27:15,690 --> 00:27:20,550
What sort of considerations and design
implementations or design ideas have

465
00:27:20,550 --> 00:27:25,530
come about in relation to the culture
and the heritage of the people who live

466
00:27:25,530 --> 00:27:27,930
around the community and the cemetery?

467
00:27:28,260 --> 00:27:28,379
Yeah.

468
00:27:28,379 --> 00:27:31,140
Well, that's a really good question
and it's a really significant.

469
00:27:31,445 --> 00:27:34,415
Aspect of design,
particularly in cemeteries.

470
00:27:34,415 --> 00:27:37,655
And I say that because
we deal with everybody.

471
00:27:37,835 --> 00:27:41,524
We turn no one away, so that means
we're bigger than the Olympic Games.

472
00:27:41,524 --> 00:27:45,665
In terms of cultural representation,
we just have everybody.

473
00:27:45,665 --> 00:27:49,324
So you know, some communities are
stronger than others and more prevalent.

474
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,970
And so we have to focus on that.

475
00:27:52,540 --> 00:27:57,250
Other times there are requests
from smaller communities or church

476
00:27:57,250 --> 00:28:02,080
groups and so on, so we try to
cater to that as best we can.

477
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,560
And of course the danger with all
that is we are just starting to become

478
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,540
a little bit more sort of mosaic.

479
00:28:08,085 --> 00:28:12,015
To use a nice word of outcomes,
let's say designed outcomes in a

480
00:28:12,015 --> 00:28:14,235
cemetery, and that's the role too.

481
00:28:14,265 --> 00:28:18,885
So we can't expect a completely
resolved sort of space from

482
00:28:18,945 --> 00:28:20,415
east to west, north to south.

483
00:28:20,475 --> 00:28:23,625
It's going to be a
collection of attitudes and.

484
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:25,740
And perceptions

485
00:28:25,860 --> 00:28:29,370
because some of the things that come
to mind when you are mentioning this

486
00:28:29,550 --> 00:28:36,870
is, I know that Muslim faith, they need
to be buried in the earth directly.

487
00:28:37,290 --> 00:28:39,870
So that's one particular consideration.

488
00:28:40,170 --> 00:28:41,520
I believe the Jewish faith.

489
00:28:42,045 --> 00:28:47,175
They have to be buried in a particular way
of what they're facing, what particular

490
00:28:47,505 --> 00:28:49,245
direction on the compass they're facing.

491
00:28:49,245 --> 00:28:51,285
I can't recall off the
top of my head, which one.

492
00:28:51,765 --> 00:28:58,725
And then you've also have cultures that
value water as well as significance.

493
00:28:58,725 --> 00:28:59,205
So.

494
00:29:00,210 --> 00:29:03,060
How do you balance all
of this sinner design

495
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:05,370
with grave difficulty?

496
00:29:05,580 --> 00:29:05,670
Yeah.

497
00:29:06,415 --> 00:29:06,705
Yeah.

498
00:29:07,020 --> 00:29:11,070
A predominant burial type to cater for
the Islamic faith, and we call them

499
00:29:11,070 --> 00:29:16,920
directional graves because they need to
be facing the body when it's laid in the

500
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:22,530
hole needs to be facing mecca effectively,
so they call directionals because the

501
00:29:22,530 --> 00:29:27,960
grave is slightly oriented depending
on which side it is, towards Mecca.

502
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:36,030
And it's a relatively consuming kind
of approach because the graves are all

503
00:29:36,270 --> 00:29:42,540
single rows, generally because the bodies
are not head to head or tail to tail

504
00:29:42,540 --> 00:29:45,060
there head to tail, if that makes sense.

505
00:29:45,330 --> 00:29:47,070
So they're all facing the same direction.

506
00:29:47,070 --> 00:29:50,310
So it means that when we have to
dig a grave, we have to come from a

507
00:29:50,310 --> 00:29:53,760
certain direction in order for our
machinery to enable that to happen.

508
00:29:54,030 --> 00:29:54,090
Yeah.

509
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,180
So we can't put double rows,
although we're trying that.

510
00:29:57,550 --> 00:30:00,340
Development at the moment, just
to try and, well, to make better

511
00:30:00,340 --> 00:30:02,110
use of the available space really.

512
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,160
But again, you know the water,
you mentioned water and that's

513
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:12,310
generally appeals to the Asian
culture and so we've gotta find that.

514
00:30:12,700 --> 00:30:15,460
And that I think is generally
more symbolic and visual,

515
00:30:16,180 --> 00:30:18,310
but we try to, if we do that.

516
00:30:18,675 --> 00:30:21,045
And then develop sort of drainage systems.

517
00:30:21,045 --> 00:30:25,905
That's our only real way of putting water
in these days where we're going away

518
00:30:25,905 --> 00:30:30,825
from pits and pipes into more open swes
and trying to hold water on site so it

519
00:30:30,825 --> 00:30:33,525
becomes more, more aesthetically pleasing.

520
00:30:33,555 --> 00:30:36,465
But at the same time, that's really
good environmental practice as well

521
00:30:36,765 --> 00:30:42,285
to just keep the ground hydrated and
cater for bigger and larger storms.

522
00:30:42,675 --> 00:30:46,695
And so we still have
lots of people who wanna.

523
00:30:47,159 --> 00:30:50,220
Be buried in their monumental type graves.

524
00:30:50,220 --> 00:30:50,970
They're the big ones.

525
00:30:50,970 --> 00:30:54,149
You see that look more gothic
in there sort of representation.

526
00:30:54,570 --> 00:30:57,990
And then there's still quite a
demand for public mausoleum as well.

527
00:30:57,990 --> 00:31:02,520
So we've got several public
mausoleum across our sites, and

528
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,870
that's just because people's
preferences to be out of the ground.

529
00:31:07,180 --> 00:31:11,110
And just to, so for people who are
unfamiliar with mausoleum, could

530
00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:14,950
you explain the structure and how
that's built and how it differs?

531
00:31:15,130 --> 00:31:15,760
Well, yeah.

532
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:20,260
Look, the risk of sounding crass, there's
no easy way to put this, but the bodies

533
00:31:20,260 --> 00:31:25,420
are stacked in coffin sized concrete
containers, and we build the mausoleum

534
00:31:25,420 --> 00:31:30,640
by stacking all these pods together
in a grid that may be up to about.

535
00:31:30,885 --> 00:31:31,845
I think five high.

536
00:31:32,504 --> 00:31:34,754
And then we sort of build
a building around that.

537
00:31:35,205 --> 00:31:38,415
And it's a generally a sort of an
indoor outdoor building, so it's

538
00:31:38,415 --> 00:31:40,425
publicly accessible at all times.

539
00:31:40,425 --> 00:31:43,455
And we've got some pretty clever
architects that know how to do

540
00:31:43,455 --> 00:31:44,715
that, and they do it really well.

541
00:31:44,715 --> 00:31:50,100
So yeah, pretty amazing sort of things
because you might think that putting

542
00:31:50,100 --> 00:31:54,405
a body in the ground, it just might
be a better option in terms of its

543
00:31:54,405 --> 00:32:00,645
deterioration and composition, but you
think that a body in a sealed concrete.

544
00:32:01,260 --> 00:32:06,810
Pod stacked up way off the ground
can therefore mean that the, uh,

545
00:32:08,850 --> 00:32:13,710
the deterioration of the body, let's
say all the, it needs to be allowed for.

546
00:32:13,830 --> 00:32:18,180
If, you know, ever left anything in
the fridge for a long time, you'll

547
00:32:18,330 --> 00:32:19,980
begin to know what I'm talking about.

548
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:20,250
So.

549
00:32:22,065 --> 00:32:26,415
This is the thing is that there's so
many considerations because the body

550
00:32:26,415 --> 00:32:31,545
does deteriorate over time, and what you
were mentioning previously in relation

551
00:32:31,545 --> 00:32:35,325
to the soil types and how they respond.

552
00:32:35,415 --> 00:32:41,055
You know, if you even plant a plant and
in your backyard and you water it over a

553
00:32:41,055 --> 00:32:45,105
period of time, the soil soaks down over
a period of time and you may have to.

554
00:32:47,565 --> 00:32:50,820
The challenges are still the
same with you, isn't there?

555
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:51,860
Oh yeah.

556
00:32:51,860 --> 00:32:56,145
Look, after I started working at GMCT in
order to educate myself, I thought I'll

557
00:32:56,145 --> 00:33:00,435
go to an exhumation and just stomach
that and see what it's all about.

558
00:33:00,495 --> 00:33:04,395
And as the body came up out of the
ground, it was still quite intact.

559
00:33:04,455 --> 00:33:09,645
It was very strange sight, and a
person was wearing the suit that

560
00:33:09,645 --> 00:33:12,405
they'd been buried in, even though
the body had been in the ground for.

561
00:33:13,185 --> 00:33:14,504
Over 10 years.

562
00:33:14,805 --> 00:33:19,695
I mean, the skeletal remains was
pretty grizzly, but the clothes

563
00:33:19,725 --> 00:33:24,585
the person was wearing or had been
buried in were still quite intact.

564
00:33:24,645 --> 00:33:26,535
So why is that to the funeral director?

565
00:33:26,535 --> 00:33:29,205
And they said, well, it's
because of the synthetic fibers.

566
00:33:29,265 --> 00:33:31,545
They're plastics and so
they don't break down.

567
00:33:32,295 --> 00:33:37,785
And the body was sort of, had been soaked
in preservatives and formaldehyde and

568
00:33:37,875 --> 00:33:40,515
other chemicals presumably, and made up.

569
00:33:40,935 --> 00:33:46,605
Before at the funeral, so the coffins
were laminated in plastic, plastic

570
00:33:46,605 --> 00:33:49,390
handles, so they were pulling up bits of.

571
00:33:49,889 --> 00:33:52,500
Plastic shards out of
the hole to clean it out.

572
00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:57,570
So when you bury a body, it can be
quite an inorganic process because of

573
00:33:57,629 --> 00:33:59,310
the clothes, because of the coffin.

574
00:33:59,310 --> 00:34:02,100
So there's now a move away from that.

575
00:34:02,100 --> 00:34:02,760
I think now.

576
00:34:02,970 --> 00:34:07,590
And then more biodegradable coffins
are being chosen as well as a

577
00:34:07,590 --> 00:34:09,600
better way to decompose the body.

578
00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:15,029
And I think that leads into that
movement also to see a increase in

579
00:34:15,029 --> 00:34:18,029
demand for natural burial to Hamish.

580
00:34:18,210 --> 00:34:18,690
That's right.

581
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:19,139
Yeah.

582
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,750
Yeah, and so we're still pretty new
at that even though we've had natural

583
00:34:22,750 --> 00:34:24,459
burial sites for a little while now.

584
00:34:24,459 --> 00:34:28,989
I think we're tasked with developing a
site at the moment, and so we're really

585
00:34:28,989 --> 00:34:32,979
going into the analysis of, it sounds
really simple, that you can do natural

586
00:34:32,979 --> 00:34:34,870
burial, just dig a hole, throw a body in.

587
00:34:35,399 --> 00:34:35,759
Done.

588
00:34:36,029 --> 00:34:38,100
But it's so much more
complicated than that.

589
00:34:38,189 --> 00:34:39,689
In essence, that's what it's about.

590
00:34:40,350 --> 00:34:43,139
But the idea of natural is
something that I think about.

591
00:34:43,169 --> 00:34:48,060
So what is natural and what are people's
expectations of what natural is?

592
00:34:48,060 --> 00:34:50,069
Well, there's hard and
fast rules about that.

593
00:34:50,189 --> 00:34:57,210
It may be that you don't allow diggers
run by diesel motors to dig the hole.

594
00:34:57,660 --> 00:35:00,450
You know, because that's an
environmental footprint, so

595
00:35:00,450 --> 00:35:02,010
it goes against being natural.

596
00:35:02,550 --> 00:35:06,720
So from that point right down to how
you mark the body, how you prepare

597
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:10,260
the body for the whole, and more
importantly, what, where you put the body.

598
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,460
So people look at a bushland and
go, oh, that, that's natural.

599
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:15,810
That's what I wanna be buried in.

600
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,960
And we are trying to develop that
at the moment, but at the same time.

601
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:24,520
We just can't bury anywhere because we're
frightened that if we upset existing

602
00:35:24,580 --> 00:35:28,030
tree roots, we're gonna kill the tree
and the vegetation, and then suddenly

603
00:35:28,030 --> 00:35:32,050
over the next 10 years, there's dead
trees everywhere and we would've failed.

604
00:35:32,050 --> 00:35:36,580
So we are developing this sort
of technique that we hope can

605
00:35:37,060 --> 00:35:41,980
mitigate those kinds of risks
and still provide the experience,

606
00:35:42,010 --> 00:35:44,050
but we're also, rather than just.

607
00:35:44,625 --> 00:35:47,115
Go from straight into natural burials.

608
00:35:47,145 --> 00:35:50,565
We're trying to think of them more
now as say, bushland burials to

609
00:35:50,565 --> 00:35:54,734
sort of ease off on the strict
protocols behind natural burial.

610
00:35:54,734 --> 00:35:57,765
That's not to say people still can't do
that if that's what their wishes are,

611
00:35:57,944 --> 00:36:02,835
but it just allows us to provide that
space for them a little bit easier.

612
00:36:03,435 --> 00:36:06,105
And whereabouts are you looking at
doing this, Hamish, for those that

613
00:36:06,169 --> 00:36:07,470
may be interested in finding out more.

614
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:09,480
Look, we are just developing.

615
00:36:09,510 --> 00:36:12,060
We have a space out at
the Hillsville Cemetery.

616
00:36:12,270 --> 00:36:15,930
We've got one at Lilydale, I think
as well, even though it's in a

617
00:36:15,930 --> 00:36:17,580
very constructed sort of landscape.

618
00:36:17,580 --> 00:36:19,410
So the idea of natural is.

619
00:36:20,265 --> 00:36:23,384
Perhaps a bit questionable, but at
the same time, if all you wanna do

620
00:36:23,384 --> 00:36:28,785
is avoid coffins and cremation, then
that can provide for that as well.

621
00:36:28,995 --> 00:36:30,225
And that's the thing, isn, isn't it?

622
00:36:30,225 --> 00:36:34,695
Because you have landscapes that you
have something like Harkness, which you

623
00:36:34,695 --> 00:36:38,595
know you can design and you can have
your vision and that can come about,

624
00:36:38,865 --> 00:36:40,965
but you're also already dealing with.

625
00:36:41,010 --> 00:36:46,230
Built landscape, hard landscape in
other places where you have constraints

626
00:36:46,230 --> 00:36:48,210
in which you have to work in as well.

627
00:36:48,210 --> 00:36:53,880
So how do you find those challenges when
you are sort of trying to retrofit sort

628
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,190
of design elements to those environments?

629
00:36:56,190 --> 00:36:57,810
Look, I think they're extremely difficult.

630
00:36:58,050 --> 00:36:59,910
We're trying to extract every.

631
00:37:00,210 --> 00:37:01,830
Available piece of space.

632
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,250
And you know, tech Williamstown for
example, it's a very historic cemetery.

633
00:37:05,610 --> 00:37:09,030
It's been going forever and a
day and there's really not much

634
00:37:09,030 --> 00:37:11,430
space left, if any at all there.

635
00:37:11,670 --> 00:37:15,240
And a few years ago we found an
opportunity, but we were really

636
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:20,310
just almost putting a, driving a
round peg in a square hole or square

637
00:37:20,550 --> 00:37:23,820
pegan, round hole, whatever it is,
but, and so what we're dealing with

638
00:37:23,820 --> 00:37:25,920
it is it existing and historic?

639
00:37:26,209 --> 00:37:30,649
Structure of graves and then trying
to put brand new ones in and trying

640
00:37:30,740 --> 00:37:35,540
and hoping that we don't, you know,
break the drainage system and we can

641
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,629
actually provide or improve it at times.

642
00:37:38,629 --> 00:37:42,859
And it might be that we need to
provide sort of better access, you

643
00:37:42,859 --> 00:37:45,379
know, 'cause we have to think about
all abilities, access, so that

644
00:37:45,379 --> 00:37:47,540
means steps and wraps and handrails.

645
00:37:47,540 --> 00:37:48,589
That's all gotta be considered.

646
00:37:48,589 --> 00:37:51,620
And when we're shoehorning
these into a really tight space,

647
00:37:52,100 --> 00:37:53,509
it can be really difficult.

648
00:37:53,690 --> 00:37:57,770
Because we have to make it so it's
profitable for us at the same time,

649
00:37:58,009 --> 00:37:59,750
and so the challenge is enormous.

650
00:37:59,750 --> 00:38:00,080
Yeah.

651
00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:04,220
And the other thing that comes to mind
that I've had a little bit of experience

652
00:38:04,250 --> 00:38:06,320
with running events in historic gardens.

653
00:38:06,890 --> 00:38:10,520
Mm. Do you have all of the maps for
the underground services on where you

654
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:11,691
are trying to do all of this work?

655
00:38:13,279 --> 00:38:13,340
No.

656
00:38:15,350 --> 00:38:19,940
No, some of them were drawn a long,
long time ago and rolled up in sealed

657
00:38:19,940 --> 00:38:21,560
boxes down in the basement, I think.

658
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,100
But no, look, we'll, as a matter
of course, we're trying to develop

659
00:38:25,100 --> 00:38:30,230
our site, Allison, due diligence
activities to try and just understand

660
00:38:30,230 --> 00:38:31,730
the site that we're working in.

661
00:38:31,730 --> 00:38:35,810
So first thing we'll do is go and get a
surveyor, or go and get some geotech done,

662
00:38:35,810 --> 00:38:40,279
or prove where the services underground
are and find out what challenges we're

663
00:38:40,279 --> 00:38:42,350
up against before we start designing.

664
00:38:42,380 --> 00:38:42,650
But.

665
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,820
We're sort of under pressure so much
to just keep up with demand, that

666
00:38:46,850 --> 00:38:50,180
building these landscapes, designing
and constructing these landscapes can

667
00:38:50,180 --> 00:38:55,460
take enormous amounts of energy and
time, and we don't always have the time

668
00:38:55,460 --> 00:38:57,830
to afford because people keep dying.

669
00:38:57,830 --> 00:38:58,465
So we're at this rate.

670
00:38:58,845 --> 00:39:02,770
And I tell you, there's never a dull
moment and there's never downtime.

671
00:39:03,839 --> 00:39:04,649
Yeah, I'm sure.

672
00:39:05,279 --> 00:39:05,569
Yeah.

673
00:39:06,375 --> 00:39:11,024
And I have to say that's something that
does come to mind and just on something

674
00:39:11,024 --> 00:39:16,814
that you touched about previously is that
if anyone's traveled East Link to sort

675
00:39:16,814 --> 00:39:19,274
of Peninsula Link in the last few years.

676
00:39:23,660 --> 00:39:27,379
They may be wondering what's being all
the construction going on over there.

677
00:39:27,770 --> 00:39:32,120
And if anyone who is familiar
with that, they may be aware

678
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:33,980
of that Ong Memorial Park.

679
00:39:34,009 --> 00:39:41,779
And what we're seeing is the section of
the cemetery that is dedicated to people

680
00:39:41,779 --> 00:39:44,899
of the Muslim faith and that's their area.

681
00:39:45,109 --> 00:39:47,750
And I believe how quickly it,

682
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:50,660
oh, it's incredible when developing.

683
00:39:53,759 --> 00:39:57,870
At Memorial Park over the last 10
years, and when I arrived, it was

684
00:39:57,899 --> 00:39:59,490
really a Greenfield site and now it's.

685
00:40:00,810 --> 00:40:03,810
Completely developed or, or,
but completely developed.

686
00:40:03,810 --> 00:40:09,120
We're doing stage two now, but the empty
spaces we thought would last a long

687
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,210
time are just filling at a rapid pace.

688
00:40:12,660 --> 00:40:16,950
We have to design a lot of car parks
in our cemetery sites, understandably.

689
00:40:17,475 --> 00:40:20,654
But if you visit one of these spaces,
the car parks are always empty.

690
00:40:20,654 --> 00:40:24,045
So it's a conundrum because the car
parks were full maybe for about an

691
00:40:24,045 --> 00:40:26,444
hour, and then they're all empty again.

692
00:40:26,924 --> 00:40:29,535
So we thought we need to provide
car parks, but one day the

693
00:40:29,535 --> 00:40:30,705
cemetery's going to be full.

694
00:40:30,705 --> 00:40:32,475
And then what happens next?

695
00:40:32,475 --> 00:40:37,335
So the clever design for River Red
Gum is that we can peel up these

696
00:40:37,395 --> 00:40:39,464
car parks and create remaining.

697
00:40:40,005 --> 00:40:43,575
Burial spaces, and we've already
done that with one carpark.

698
00:40:43,605 --> 00:40:46,635
We thought it would last another 10
years, but we've already pulled up one

699
00:40:46,635 --> 00:40:51,615
carpark and have just built directional
graves for the Islamic community there.

700
00:40:51,885 --> 00:40:53,865
And I think they've just
about all sold out too.

701
00:40:53,865 --> 00:40:54,945
So it's crazy.

702
00:40:55,005 --> 00:41:01,335
And just designing in a space that
River Red Gums, uh, predominantly in.

703
00:41:01,335 --> 00:41:04,335
So there's that space that
you're referring to and other

704
00:41:04,335 --> 00:41:05,415
areas that you've worked on.

705
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:12,390
What consideration is given to First
Nations cultural consultation in relation

706
00:41:12,390 --> 00:41:14,220
to that landscape and those designs?

707
00:41:14,610 --> 00:41:16,440
Well, the short answer is very little.

708
00:41:16,845 --> 00:41:19,875
And it struck me a few years
ago when I was learning about

709
00:41:19,875 --> 00:41:23,505
cemeteries and I thought to myself
that we cater for all cultures.

710
00:41:23,505 --> 00:41:27,855
We always talk about culture all the
time, but we include all cultures,

711
00:41:27,915 --> 00:41:31,185
or we did include all cultures except
one, and that was our indigenous one.

712
00:41:31,185 --> 00:41:32,655
And I thought, well, that's a huge gap.

713
00:41:32,655 --> 00:41:38,475
So from that point, we sort of started
making more effort to engage with our

714
00:41:38,505 --> 00:41:41,625
traditional owners, and then we sort
of started to understand a little

715
00:41:41,625 --> 00:41:46,005
bit more about why this is a good
thing, particularly with their skills.

716
00:41:46,650 --> 00:41:51,000
Of land management and maintenance
over the last 60,000 years.

717
00:41:51,420 --> 00:41:55,680
So when we kicked off the Harkness master
plan, that was very conscientiously

718
00:41:55,740 --> 00:42:00,360
included, a lot of consultation and
engagement with the traditional owners.

719
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,170
Normally, you know, that starts
with developing a cultural

720
00:42:04,170 --> 00:42:05,550
heritage management plan.

721
00:42:05,940 --> 00:42:10,230
And from that point on, we work out
what the limitations are, what the

722
00:42:10,230 --> 00:42:12,150
opportunities are, how can we sort of.

723
00:42:12,875 --> 00:42:17,254
Into our designs, how that can be
applied, how we can make that more

724
00:42:17,254 --> 00:42:22,745
relevant to the general public, and
just be truly inclusive on that level.

725
00:42:23,134 --> 00:42:26,854
Well, it's lovely to hear that that work
is being done and that there is a shift

726
00:42:26,854 --> 00:42:32,555
in the way in which we view inclusivity
in relation to all cultures, as you said.

727
00:42:32,794 --> 00:42:33,154
Yeah.

728
00:42:34,015 --> 00:42:38,275
And in relation to, as you were saying,
and we, it seems to be coming up a

729
00:42:38,275 --> 00:42:43,765
time and time again when we're talking
about design, is we've only got so

730
00:42:43,765 --> 00:42:46,105
much green space in at the cities.

731
00:42:46,165 --> 00:42:52,015
And I certainly became very aware
of this when I traveled overseas

732
00:42:52,015 --> 00:42:56,155
recently and was in Milan and thought,
oh, I'll check out their cemetery.

733
00:42:56,605 --> 00:42:59,335
And we manage ours in perpetuity.

734
00:42:59,925 --> 00:43:05,445
However, there is a lot of overdue
notices on cemetery, on gravestones

735
00:43:05,445 --> 00:43:11,925
and in the Mus Oleum in Milano Central,
and I thought, what does that mean

736
00:43:11,925 --> 00:43:16,335
for us, Hamish, when we're, we've
only got so far we can have land.

737
00:43:16,725 --> 00:43:23,325
What have you seen that may be the future
of design and how we accommodate burying

738
00:43:23,325 --> 00:43:25,245
people when we have limited space?

739
00:43:25,605 --> 00:43:27,404
It's the eternal question.

740
00:43:27,464 --> 00:43:29,625
It's a bit of a luxury here in Australia.

741
00:43:29,625 --> 00:43:33,855
I think a lot of, I think in Europe
and other places, there's this

742
00:43:33,855 --> 00:43:37,725
thing called tenure where they
exhume the body and dispose of it

743
00:43:37,725 --> 00:43:39,674
if the family no longer requires it.

744
00:43:39,794 --> 00:43:42,615
But here, it's in
perpetuity and off it goes.

745
00:43:42,615 --> 00:43:45,435
It just sort of disappears
into the ether over time.

746
00:43:46,125 --> 00:43:51,794
But look, you know, when we think about
space, we have to change the attitudes.

747
00:43:51,794 --> 00:43:52,455
I think about.

748
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,610
Burial and how that might happen.

749
00:43:54,610 --> 00:43:58,360
And I think that the way we do
that is to combine that with

750
00:43:58,420 --> 00:44:00,790
new techniques of body disposal.

751
00:44:01,060 --> 00:44:04,600
And it's very old sort of style
of bury a body in a coffin

752
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:05,770
and putting it in the ground.

753
00:44:05,770 --> 00:44:08,980
And there are newer
techniques that I'd be.

754
00:44:09,530 --> 00:44:13,550
Keen to see developed here in Victoria
and Australia in general, such as

755
00:44:13,550 --> 00:44:18,410
composting, which has been developed
in the US and it's really composting

756
00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:21,260
a body in a rapid sort of process.

757
00:44:21,620 --> 00:44:25,820
So the outcome or the remains are,
as I understand it, a bag of soil.

758
00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:28,370
So you know you can do what
you want with that soil.

759
00:44:28,370 --> 00:44:31,850
At the particular business in
America has a relationship with

760
00:44:32,030 --> 00:44:34,310
regenerating a decimated forest.

761
00:44:34,310 --> 00:44:37,700
So their idea of giving back to
the environment is that if you

762
00:44:37,700 --> 00:44:39,110
dunno what to do with you remains.

763
00:44:39,259 --> 00:44:41,509
Help us regenerate this
forest with nutrient.

764
00:44:41,839 --> 00:44:44,450
And so to me that's a,
it's a fabulous idea.

765
00:44:44,450 --> 00:44:49,339
In my long-term vision for the new
cemetery or the eventual cemetery is

766
00:44:49,339 --> 00:44:53,960
just a garden or a forest where you
see no headstones, you don't see any

767
00:44:53,960 --> 00:45:00,230
bodies, but it's all constructed or
created through fertilized forest floor,

768
00:45:00,290 --> 00:45:03,140
you know, so it becomes a very sacred.

769
00:45:03,585 --> 00:45:05,175
Kind of space in its own right?

770
00:45:05,175 --> 00:45:06,735
I think so.

771
00:45:06,735 --> 00:45:07,275
There's that.

772
00:45:07,335 --> 00:45:08,925
There's other sort of techniques.

773
00:45:08,925 --> 00:45:12,315
Natural burial obviously that we've
talked about is also quite becoming

774
00:45:12,315 --> 00:45:17,205
quite popular and, but I think that
the challenges are big if you follow

775
00:45:17,205 --> 00:45:19,005
real estate in any way, shape, or form.

776
00:45:19,005 --> 00:45:21,255
We all know that things are just
getting more and more expensive.

777
00:45:21,255 --> 00:45:26,265
And so for us to go and buy land, which is
a lengthy process in the first place, that

778
00:45:26,265 --> 00:45:29,535
is often on the outskirts of the city.

779
00:45:29,865 --> 00:45:33,555
Meaning the travel times are much
greater and we need to develop larger

780
00:45:33,555 --> 00:45:38,415
parcels to try and shore up the future
that, look, maybe we should follow

781
00:45:38,595 --> 00:45:42,975
Brazil or Japan where they build
a fit out a, an office building or

782
00:45:43,515 --> 00:45:47,685
you know, we house them in another
kind of way or well, what have you.

783
00:45:47,685 --> 00:45:51,615
I think the first point is to
sort of start to change people's

784
00:45:51,615 --> 00:45:53,535
attitudes about what they expect.

785
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:55,865
When they expect to die,
when they think they're gonna

786
00:45:55,924 --> 00:45:57,960
die, or what that outcome is.

787
00:45:58,049 --> 00:46:02,520
And I suppose on that, staying with that
thought of perhaps challenging people's

788
00:46:02,730 --> 00:46:07,560
perception of what they think burial
involves nowadays, as you mentioned,

789
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,049
there's a lot of challenges with.

790
00:46:10,725 --> 00:46:12,615
Bearing someone in the ground.

791
00:46:12,645 --> 00:46:13,845
You've mentioned soil types.

792
00:46:13,845 --> 00:46:14,895
You've mentioned drainage.

793
00:46:14,895 --> 00:46:18,254
You've mentioned just the natural
decomposition and settling of the body,

794
00:46:18,254 --> 00:46:22,814
and then the settling of the soil with a
very large tombstone or plaque, you know,

795
00:46:22,904 --> 00:46:27,375
on top of it, and managing those and then
maintaining it and growing things on top.

796
00:46:27,545 --> 00:46:33,935
So the thing that surprised me
when I saw a, it was at Southern

797
00:46:33,935 --> 00:46:38,765
Metropolitan Cemeteries Trust at
Bunong, was that we're using modern

798
00:46:38,765 --> 00:46:44,495
day techniques to help mitigate
those challenges by using concrete.

799
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:55,030
Areas where a person is buried, and I
assume that is to actually contain that

800
00:46:55,030 --> 00:46:57,100
or control those issues in some way.

801
00:46:57,100 --> 00:46:58,540
Hamish, why is that?

802
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,390
If I understand what you're
saying is correct, then we.

803
00:47:01,785 --> 00:47:04,875
Pour a lot of concrete, and basically
what we're doing is building

804
00:47:05,085 --> 00:47:10,455
concrete foundations to support
the weight of a monumental grave.

805
00:47:10,815 --> 00:47:14,805
So as I mentioned before, the soils
can be quite moving and shifting and

806
00:47:14,805 --> 00:47:20,805
reactive, and so we do our best to try
and limit that by knowing that people

807
00:47:20,805 --> 00:47:23,085
wanna put a very, very heavy stone.

808
00:47:23,460 --> 00:47:27,990
Monolithic structure on the ground to
commemorate the family or the loved one.

809
00:47:28,620 --> 00:47:31,920
And so the physics of that
is that something very heavy

810
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:33,690
on soil needs supported.

811
00:47:34,020 --> 00:47:36,810
So we pour a lot of concrete
to make that happen.

812
00:47:37,470 --> 00:47:41,129
So we're trying to look at ways of how
can we reduce our reliance on concrete.

813
00:47:41,129 --> 00:47:44,190
Maybe we don't need, we're
investigating green concrete, you

814
00:47:44,190 --> 00:47:47,730
know, that doesn't rely on the
usual techniques of manufacturing.

815
00:47:48,180 --> 00:47:50,879
We also lay concrete beams that.

816
00:47:50,905 --> 00:47:55,345
People can f lord graves, the, the
headstone or the plaque sits on and

817
00:47:55,345 --> 00:47:56,905
we're thinking, do we need them so wide?

818
00:47:56,935 --> 00:47:59,185
Perhaps we can shrink
them down a little bit.

819
00:47:59,485 --> 00:48:00,775
So it's a brilliant.

820
00:48:01,170 --> 00:48:02,250
Product concrete.

821
00:48:02,250 --> 00:48:06,180
It's been around for a long time and
it's proven, and so I think it's gonna

822
00:48:06,180 --> 00:48:07,920
be here to stay for a little while.

823
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,009
We've just gotta work out how
we can work with it, make it go

824
00:48:11,009 --> 00:48:12,390
further, if that makes sense.

825
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:13,200
Of course.

826
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,710
Thanks for explaining that, because
it makes sense that it's putting in

827
00:48:16,710 --> 00:48:20,670
the substructure there to support
the activities that have to happen.

828
00:48:20,970 --> 00:48:21,120
Yeah.

829
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:22,529
Just like a house or a building.

830
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:23,340
Yeah.

831
00:48:23,759 --> 00:48:25,799
You put down a slab,
build the house on top.

832
00:48:25,860 --> 00:48:27,150
You're good to go.

833
00:48:27,690 --> 00:48:30,960
Uh, another thing that came to mind
was when you were talking about the

834
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:36,690
price of real estate, and there was
something that I saw that, you know,

835
00:48:36,810 --> 00:48:41,580
when you were looking at a design of
the cemetery that, you know, whenever

836
00:48:41,580 --> 00:48:46,530
you are closer to the water, it's always
more expensive to get a plot there.

837
00:48:49,410 --> 00:48:50,070
Expensive.

838
00:48:54,175 --> 00:48:58,315
As in life, the ones with the view
and the ones closest to the water

839
00:48:58,735 --> 00:48:59,995
are still the most expensive.

840
00:49:00,565 --> 00:49:01,435
Sad but true.

841
00:49:01,435 --> 00:49:06,625
But you know, there's a couple of
Wiley retailers in cemetery industries

842
00:49:06,625 --> 00:49:10,435
as well, so they know that, you know,
people are prepared to pay and look.

843
00:49:10,435 --> 00:49:11,485
It's just a demand supply.

844
00:49:12,585 --> 00:49:13,995
Equation as well.

845
00:49:13,995 --> 00:49:17,685
So if people wanna commemorate, they'll
pay for it, although, but you know,

846
00:49:17,685 --> 00:49:21,825
we have these price points all over
the place in every cemetery, depending

847
00:49:21,825 --> 00:49:25,665
on the location, depending on the
outlook, depending on the product type.

848
00:49:25,665 --> 00:49:28,965
You know, whether it's just a simple
one grave or a cremated remains

849
00:49:28,965 --> 00:49:33,585
garden right up to the private
mausoleum where money's not an object.

850
00:49:33,839 --> 00:49:37,920
And with all the things that you've seen
and your experience that you've had over

851
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,440
this time, Hamish, what's your thoughts?

852
00:49:40,529 --> 00:49:42,420
What's your end of life plans?

853
00:49:42,450 --> 00:49:47,160
Have you come to any decision about
whether you'd like to be buried or.

854
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:52,680
Well, well, I tend to avoid questions
like that sometimes, and I want to,

855
00:49:52,710 --> 00:49:57,690
I'll make a decision right at the
end, but no, I'm actually quite like

856
00:49:57,690 --> 00:49:59,520
the idea of the composting myself.

857
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:04,080
I think that just seems to be a natural
process without a lot of mechanical

858
00:50:04,140 --> 00:50:07,740
interventions, and I think that the
outcome, if I understand it correctly, is

859
00:50:07,740 --> 00:50:10,200
something that I feel is more spiritual.

860
00:50:10,530 --> 00:50:13,950
It's one thing to bury a whole body
in the ground and let it decompose,

861
00:50:13,950 --> 00:50:17,400
but there's something about
scattering much, much like cremation.

862
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:21,930
And if I could scatter a bag of
soil around in a forest, preferably

863
00:50:21,930 --> 00:50:24,990
down by the beach somewhere,
I'd be very content with that.

864
00:50:24,990 --> 00:50:25,290
I think I.

865
00:50:25,585 --> 00:50:30,805
I like the idea of that, you know, being
fertilizer for a future generation of

866
00:50:30,805 --> 00:50:35,275
trees and for animals to live in some
part of those trees moving forward.

867
00:50:35,485 --> 00:50:35,605
Yeah.

868
00:50:35,605 --> 00:50:40,255
Look, my my personal opinion is that
humans have been fighting nature

869
00:50:40,345 --> 00:50:43,780
ever since we got here, and it's
brought us to this point now, and

870
00:50:43,780 --> 00:50:45,685
I think it's just a futile fight.

871
00:50:46,465 --> 00:50:50,390
And I think that we should be more
working with nature to let it.

872
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:51,530
Do its thing.

873
00:50:51,830 --> 00:50:54,020
And I think that's one
way you can do that.

874
00:50:54,290 --> 00:50:59,300
Well, it sounds like things with the
work that you're doing, Hamish means

875
00:50:59,300 --> 00:51:02,390
that you are really paving the way
in making sure that kind of happens.

876
00:51:02,390 --> 00:51:07,400
That we're in more harmony when we design
our cemeteries of the future generation.

877
00:51:07,490 --> 00:51:07,610
Yeah.

878
00:51:07,940 --> 00:51:08,390
Thanks.

879
00:51:08,390 --> 00:51:09,050
It's, yeah.

880
00:51:09,110 --> 00:51:12,560
Very challenging, but it's very
rewarding at the same time.

881
00:51:12,835 --> 00:51:14,575
Thank you so much for being with us today.

882
00:51:14,575 --> 00:51:16,225
Is there anything else
that you'd like to add?

883
00:51:16,525 --> 00:51:19,645
Oh, well, I could keep talking
forever about this subject,

884
00:51:22,465 --> 00:51:23,755
so we better call it quits.

885
00:51:25,045 --> 00:51:27,085
Thank you so much for being
with us today, Hamish.

886
00:51:27,205 --> 00:51:27,830
No worries, Catherine.

887
00:51:27,830 --> 00:51:28,310
Till next time.

888
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:35,220
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889
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,290
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890
00:51:38,009 --> 00:51:42,300
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