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About this episode
Do you crave captivating conversation about the things that REALLY matter?
Then you can’t go past listening to a seasoned end of life doula with nearly 40 years of experience, like Helen Callanan.
Helen is the founder and lead educator at Preparing the Way, an organisation that delivers holistic end-of-life and doula education across Australia and New Zealand. Helen's profound experience and passion for education create a wealth of knowledge that she generously shares with us today.
In this revealing episode, Helen explains how she has managed to bring life to stories of death through her work and passion. We delve into her journey of creating Preparing the Way and how her mission of empowering all people with choice at the end of life has shaped the way she operates. We also explore how she managed to design and deliver the world's first nationally accredited Certificate IV in End of Life Doula Services, a feat that required rigorous work and dedication.
Helen shares fascinating insights into the world of end-of-life care, including how she has adapted her training methods in response to the Covid-19 pandemic. She also discusses the importance of having open conversations about death and the critical role of end-of-life doulas in our society. This is a must-listen episode for anyone interested in the field of end-of-life care, or anyone looking to gain a deeper understanding of what it means to face death consciously and compassionately.
Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine
Show notes
Guest Bio
![Podcast Guest - Image](https://criticalinfo.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/helen-pink-side-on.jpeg)
Founder, Managing Director and Lead Educator of Preparing the Way
Helen is a practising end of life doula and the Founder, Managing Director and Lead Educator of Preparing the Way. Originally trained in Traditional Chinese Medicine and Reiki, Helen has almost 40 years of experience working with the ageing, very ill and dying.
Preparing the Way delivers holistic end of life (EOL) and doula education across Australia and New Zealand. Preparing the Way also is very proud to have designed and to deliver the world’s first nationally accredited 10966NAT Certificate IV in End of Life Doula Services!
The long term caring and death experiences of her parents, family, friends and many clients alongside her passion for education that transforms, led Helen to establish Preparing the Way in 2014 and bring her wealth of knowledge to hundreds of doulas, clients and their families and those close to them.
Summary
In this episode, we discuss:
- Helen's journey to becoming an end-of-life doula and the creation of Preparing the Way.
- How Preparing the Way developed the world's first nationally accredited Certificate IV in End of Life Doula Services.
- The impact of Covid-19 on doula training and how it has led to unexpected positive outcomes.
- The importance of bringing conversations about death into the open and the role of doulas in this process.
Transcript
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Helen: And I often ask, why
do you want to be a doula?
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Oh, I want to have people
have a peaceful day.
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And I'll go, well, good luck with that.
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Because some people don't.
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If you've got an attachment to
that, you're going to be imposing
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your vie ... Read More
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00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:03,400
Helen: And I often ask, why
do you want to be a doula?
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00:00:03,470 --> 00:00:05,530
Oh, I want to have people
have a peaceful day.
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And I'll go, well, good luck with that.
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Because some people don't.
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If you've got an attachment to
that, you're going to be imposing
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your view upon the person.
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The thing about doularing
is my client is the expert.
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The family is the expert, not me.
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So what I'm there to do is to
listen and draw out from them.
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What are their preferences?
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Let's help you navigate what
feels the right thing to you
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because you're the expert.
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And as far as my tick
list goes, is it legal?
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Is it safe?
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And is it possible?
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And if it ticks those three boxes, I'm in.
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Catherine: Welcome to Don't Be
Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging
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open conversations about dying
and the death of a loved one.
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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to
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bring your stories of death back to life.
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Because while you may not
be ready to die, you can.
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At least you can be prepared.
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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin nations
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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.
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We pay our respects to their elders,
past, present and emerging, and extend
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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First
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Nation peoples around the globe.
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Helen Callanan is a practicing end of life
doula and the founder, managing director
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and lead educator of Preparing The Way.
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Originally trained in traditional
Chinese medicine and Reiki, Helen has
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almost 40 years of experience working
with the aging, and the elderly.
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Very ill and dying.
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Preparing the Way delivers holistic
end of life and doula education
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across Australia and New Zealand.
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Preparing the Way is also very proud to
have designed and to deliver the world's
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first nationally accredited Certificate
IV in end of life doula services.
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The long term caring and death
experiences of her parents, family,
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friends and many clients alongside her
passion for education that transforms.
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led Helen to establish Preparing the Way
in 2014 and brings her wealth of knowledge
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to hundreds of doulas, clients and
their families and those close to them.
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Helen, thank you so much
for joining us today.
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Helen: Thank
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Catherine: you,
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Helen: Catherine.
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Thrilled to be here.
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Catherine: Helen, you've designed
and deliver the world's first
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nationally accredited certificate
for in end of life doula services.
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Can you tell us how this came about?
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Helen: Yeah, well, we're very proud of it.
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Number one, and it's coming out with
a lot of blood, sweat and tears and a
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lot of work with from a lot of people
and a lot of industry consultation.
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And it's barely been,
it's been a labor of love.
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I can honestly say that.
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And, and, you know, early on.
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When I created Preparing the Way, you
know, we were having conversations way
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back then about, doula was often seen
back then as a very grassroots, sort
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of bit left of centre, for some people
a bit woo woo la la, a bit out there.
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And so, in a lot of conventional care
settings, you know, End of life doulas
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were a bit marginalized and were not
necessarily taken seriously or were,
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it's a bit like how birth doulas used
to be, you know, they weren't allowed
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in the birthing suites but now midwives
actually actively encourage them.
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So, so we, At Preparing the Way,
the stats are that around 80 percent
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of people die either in an aged
care facility or in a hospital.
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Now, my mission and our mission at
Preparing the Way is all people,
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and that's capital A, capital L,
capital L, all people, are empowered
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with choice at end of life, and all
people having access to a doula.
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So, what I, I went, you
know what, the, the way the
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conventional care system works.
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Is generally speaking, you need a
piece of paper to say that you are
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skilled or to say that you have the
knowledge and the performance criteria,
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that you understand the laws that
you know about occupational health
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and safety and the infection control.
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And you know, those basic things
that are important and they're very,
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they're public health concepts.
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And if we want to work in that
and provide doula services.
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in those environments, then it
makes sense that there's a piece
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of paper to get in the door.
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And I want to just say, Catherine, you
know, we're proud of the CERT4, and
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it's an amazing training, and we've got
our first people coming through now,
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and we've just started our second one,
and our third one will start in August.
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But I really want to state up
front, you do not need the Cert
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IV to be a truly amazing doula.
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There are a lot of people, end of life
doulas out there who've had little
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training and they're doing it organically
because it is a role of being of service.
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So I just want to state that up front.
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It, we talk to people when we're,
uh, people come and say, oh,
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I'm interested in the Cert IV.
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We look at people, what
are your goals, actually?
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Where do you see yourself?
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What calls to you?
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Because you don't need the Cert IV
to be a great daughter, as I said.
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But if you want to work in the
conventional care settings, like some
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people come to us and they're just
like, I just want to be with our elders.
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I just want to care for our elders.
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Well, these days, if you don't
have a piece of paper, you can't
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get into an aged care facility.
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Do you get what I'm
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both: saying?
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So to
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Helen: me, it's about means to an end.
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It's about creating, and also the other
thing was, I was very committed to, is,
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is creating a professional, professional
role that doula is, because it'll
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always be done by people in the world.
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We're all going to be a doula at some
point or another for people in our
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lives, whether it's our family or a
friend or someone in our community,
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we're all going to be doulas.
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But there are people that are
particularly trained and are able to.
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that have a deep level of knowledge
and a deep level of experience that
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can actually then very gently provide
the support to a person and or their
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people close as they're navigating this
whole, you know, multi stage journey.
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And I'll speak about the 10 stages
shortly, but you know, it, in terms
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of How it came about, long answer, cut
it out if you want, in terms of, in
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terms of how it came about, I started
doing some research on what it actually
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took to have a course be accredited.
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And I'm telling you, it's a lot.
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And the, the hoops and the things you've
got to jump through to get it across the
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line, to have it signed off as valid and,
and it's, it's a massive undertaking.
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Thank you.
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And we started off by
doing a lot of research.
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We researched to people who had already
done our non accredited training.
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If this was available,
what would you want?
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And would you be interested?
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We talked to industry stakeholders.
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So we went around a lot of
different organizations.
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We had 30 or 40 different stakeholders in
the industry, in the end of life space,
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range of people, doctors, aged care
facilities, doulas, nurses, a whole bunch
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of people go asking their experience.
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We did a lot of demographic research and
put together, you know, a case for it.
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And, uh, and then we created the subjects
and, uh, we began then to, to build those.
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And as I said, we just
started our, our second.
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One, we just put our second one in
the water literally a week and a half
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ago and, you know, we've changed.
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I think we're on version three already,
even though we're only starting our second
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one because we're learning all the time.
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We made this up from nothing, basically
inside the guidelines, of course,
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we deliver it in partnership with
a registered training organization.
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That our program is on their scope
and that's called Essential Skills
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Training and Recruitment and they're
an award winning RTO, uh, based out
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of Newcastle in New South Wales.
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And they, they have so championed us
and worked with us to have this be
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the caliber of program that it is.
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We're very proud of it.
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And we're learning all the time.
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I say to people, when I haven't been on a
learning curve, we've been on a learning
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spiral, squealing, hanging off the sides,
you know, just spinning out of control.
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But you know what?
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We're very committed and we will,
we will fulfill our mission.
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You know, that's what we're here for.
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Catherine: And tell me what
are some of those learnings
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that you've had along the way?
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Helen: Oh, goodness gracious me.
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Well, We have both accredited and non
accredited training at Preparing the Way,
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and we've been dealing, delivering the
non accredited training now for 10 years.
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And that's where most people that have
done our training have gone on to be
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doulas, that's where they've started.
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And when we did the first, uh, the
first intake, we had people start that
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program, we did an interview process.
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We had people start that
program around half.
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had done our non accredited training, the
foundation workshop, and then the four
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day intensive, um, and about half had it.
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And what we found was the half
that had not, all bar one of
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them, withdrew from the program.
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Because we're talking about an
18 month We're talking about a
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significant financial investment.
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We're talking about a significant
investment of time and energy and focus.
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There are, it's something like,
I don't think I'm making this up,
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but there's, there's somewhere
between 50 and 60 assessments,
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both: right?
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That's a
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Helen: lot of work, right?
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So people started it.
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And when we interviewed people as
they were leaving, the majority of
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them were saying, you know what?
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It's not what I thought.
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So in other words, they didn't have.
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A real relationship with who and what
Doola is and who and what Doola, what,
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what Doola does and also the opportunity
to go, Oh, well, here's Doola, like, which
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if you've done the foundation workshop and
the four day intensive, which the others
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had, they were like, Oh, this is Doola.
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I want this.
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This is where I belong.
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This is, I want to invest in
this one woman who did the
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training, sold her house.
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both: Yeah.
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Helen: So that she could devote
her time to it, and she's the
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first person to get through.
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That was her level of commitment.
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both: Yeah, that's right.
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She's the first
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Helen: person to finish all of her
assessments, and we're just waiting on the
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nod from the RTOs that, you know, all of
her assessments have been validated, which
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it's a very rigorous process, and then
we'll be giving her her piece of paper.
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So, yeah.
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So that's the first person.
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Do you get what I'm saying?
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It's like, this work is a calling
for most people, Catherine.
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They really feel called
to this in their heart.
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This is a work of heart,
of spirit, of, of service.
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It's not a doing.
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It's not a, a clinical, you know, thing.
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It's a very much of heart.
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And so, That was one of the big things
is to make sure before people come
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in that they understand all and that
this really is an authentic choice
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for them rather than waste their time
and money, you know, so that was one.
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Um, another one was to that, that.
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When, when we're writing training,
as I said, we're on version three
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right now, when we first wrote, we
wrote it, I think we probably pitched
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it a bit too high in terms of, it
was more diploma level than Cert IV,
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and so the ASCQA has these levels.
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And so we probably pitched it a bit high.
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And so, uh, so we've, we've actually
ended up being able to, again,
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with the RTO's input and validation
and support, to simplify it,
213
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which is a great blessing, right?
214
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Always to make things simpler.
215
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Uh, so, and it makes it more accessible.
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We've also trained how
we're delivering it.
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So, and I think the other
218
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Catherine: Helen, just before
you go on, ASQUA, what's ASQUA?
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Oh, beg your
220
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Helen: pardon, thank you.
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So, ASQUA, which stands for the
Australian Skills Quality Authority,
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they are the governing body of
all things accredited, nationally
223
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accredited training, whatever level that
224
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both: it
225
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Helen: is.
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And so, ASQUA, They set all of the rules,
they have all of these parameters, and
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so we then, we designed the training,
developed the training, and that includes
228
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all of the assessments, and the assessment
marking guides, and the learner guides,
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which is like the manual that they get
for each unit, all of that, and then
230
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all of that, that we have 15 units.
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And all of that gets submitted to ASQA
and they go through it all and you
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pay a registration fee to do that.
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Then they come back and they go, you know,
here's the areas that are not compliant.
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So then you go back and you have, I
think, I think we had a four or six
235
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week period to get everything done.
236
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Otherwise, we'd have to
start all over again.
237
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So it's very rigorous,
very, very rigorous.
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Then finally, we got it all signed off.
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So then once that happened, then we go
to a registered training organization
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because basically preparing the way we
designed, we developed and we deliver.
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So we train and assist.
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But our RTO, or Registered
Training Organization, they
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are the ones who validate.
244
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the training and the assessments and
then they are the ones who actually
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give the piece of paper saying here
is your qualification you're cert for.
246
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We don't do that.
247
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That's the difference between certified
training and accredited training.
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both: See, our
249
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Helen: non accredited
training is certified.
250
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We're saying you have successfully
completed this, but there's no assessments
251
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and our bottom line is any organization
can certify their own training, but
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accreditation is by an independent party.
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And so that's our RTO and we have a 3rd
party agreement with our RTO and they,
254
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but they basically, we give it to them
and we say, here it is, we say it's ready.
255
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They then literally go through
the bind to Skyrim and audit
256
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everything, and then they'll come
back and say, yes, it's ready.
257
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Now that's ticked.
258
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Catherine: Yeah.
259
00:14:54,750 --> 00:14:56,439
Thanks for explaining that process, Helen.
260
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And you were saying another
challenge that you had was about
261
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the, the training and the level?
262
00:15:01,970 --> 00:15:06,280
Helen: Yeah, so the level it was pitched
at, so I've created like a Cert 2, you
263
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know, is, is pitched at this level and
a Cert 3 and 4 and like it goes up in
264
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Diploma and Degree, all of that, right?
265
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So we, we, when we first wrote it,
we probably pitched it a bit high.
266
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It was more like Diploma level.
267
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And so the RTO were very helpful.
268
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In helping us work out where we had done
that and bringing it back and having it
269
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be more, you know, more at that level that
it was designed, should be designed at.
270
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And so that's made it simpler.
271
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You know, we've also changed
some of our delivery style.
272
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Also, the other thing to bear in mind,
Catherine, that, We have to think about
273
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is that this is an adult education.
274
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So it's very different to school.
275
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It's very different to
holding people's hand.
276
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Now we bring doula to it.
277
00:15:53,860 --> 00:16:00,150
So, for example, some of the units in
the CERT4 are what we call core units.
278
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In other words, they're actually units
from other major training packages.
279
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So, for example, community health, right?
280
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And we might have taken
one of those units.
281
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And we, and there's 11 of those,
four of the units are what we call
282
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enterprise units, which are, are unique.
283
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So they're the preparing the way,
and we also work closely with
284
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Natural Grace, holistic funerals.
285
00:16:24,834 --> 00:16:30,154
So the two of the enterprise units are
designed particularly deeply with Natural
286
00:16:30,154 --> 00:16:33,669
Grace, because they are to do with after
death, home based after death care.
287
00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:37,320
and also funeral care
and in a holistic model.
288
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So, so that's that, but the other core
units, the other 11 are taken from other
289
00:16:43,179 --> 00:16:48,479
training packages, but every one of
them we have contextualized to doula.
290
00:16:49,490 --> 00:16:52,930
So it might've been, let's say we
picked a unit like palliative care.
291
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,130
Now that's, that's pitched.
292
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at, to, to be delivered to people learning
palliative care, so maybe AINs or enrolled
293
00:17:03,329 --> 00:17:05,869
nurses or nurses or whatever, right?
294
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both: Yeah.
295
00:17:06,579 --> 00:17:10,009
Helen: But, but, but, but
that's a clinical medical role.
296
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Doula is non clinical, non medical.
297
00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:17,947
So every one of those units,
we re pitch them, bringing the
298
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contextualization to Doula, so that
people are getting trained, well,
299
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how does Doula operate in this space?
300
00:17:24,210 --> 00:17:24,260
Right.
301
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both: Yeah.
302
00:17:25,179 --> 00:17:25,419
Right.
303
00:17:25,449 --> 00:17:25,780
Still
304
00:17:25,780 --> 00:17:30,169
Helen: learning the same content
so that they understand that and
305
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how does doula relate to this
versus nurse or, or whatever.
306
00:17:34,419 --> 00:17:34,639
Yep.
307
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:37,370
Catherine: And how long
did that process take?
308
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Because it sounds very rigorous.
309
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Helen: It took us two years.
310
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With people working on it full time.
311
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Catherine: So, and when you,
when you think that you started
312
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preparing the way in 2014
313
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both: Mm-Hmm.
314
00:17:51,389 --> 00:17:53,254
,
Catherine: this process took two years.
315
00:17:53,595 --> 00:17:54,014
Mm-Hmm.
316
00:17:54,935 --> 00:17:57,740
. And we had a little thing
called Covid in a month.
317
00:17:57,740 --> 00:17:58,910
Well, do you know what,
318
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:04,200
Helen: when Covid started in 20,
I'll never forget it, you know, may,
319
00:18:04,260 --> 00:18:09,990
uh, March, 2020, we had a choice
to make it preparing the way, and
320
00:18:09,990 --> 00:18:11,520
that was either shut the doors.
321
00:18:11,870 --> 00:18:14,930
Because all of the training up until
then, the non accredited training,
322
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had all been delivered face to face.
323
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:23,310
Except for the foundation workshop one
day I occasionally did on Skype back then.
324
00:18:24,270 --> 00:18:28,345
So it was either pivot to
Zoom, Or shut the doors.
325
00:18:28,965 --> 00:18:33,105
And I went, well, we've done too much,
we've got, we, we just need to keep going.
326
00:18:33,105 --> 00:18:35,835
I was terrified about putting all
of this training, particularly
327
00:18:35,835 --> 00:18:37,395
the four day, on Zoom.
328
00:18:37,395 --> 00:18:41,314
The four day is a very deep
transformational program, and, and I
329
00:18:41,314 --> 00:18:43,394
was really, uh, worried about that.
330
00:18:43,405 --> 00:18:44,014
But do you know what?
331
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It's actually worked amazingly, and in
fact has had a very positive outcome,
332
00:18:51,179 --> 00:18:57,600
and we keep the numbers small, so that
makes a difference, and I lead that, we've
333
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:04,370
got another trainer, co leads that with
me, parts of it, and that training now
334
00:19:04,409 --> 00:19:10,340
has become So much even stronger because
because of course there's breakout rooms.
335
00:19:10,340 --> 00:19:14,949
You can still do that work in smaller
groups You know, we can still watch videos
336
00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:20,129
We can do all of that and what we found
is that sometimes and I had a woman say
337
00:19:20,129 --> 00:19:25,270
this amounts Helen I'm so glad it was on
zoom and I said tell me why you say that
338
00:19:25,810 --> 00:19:30,195
I've been worried about that and she said
because one of the things they do people
339
00:19:30,195 --> 00:19:34,610
have to have done the foundation workshop
So Um, as a prerequisite so that everyone
340
00:19:34,610 --> 00:19:39,350
starts the foredate with the same language
and the same knowledge base, right?
341
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,070
And so, and they write, uh, they have
to do some projects in between the
342
00:19:44,070 --> 00:19:45,510
foundation workshop and the foredate.
343
00:19:45,849 --> 00:19:49,129
And one of those projects is
to write the story up close and
344
00:19:49,129 --> 00:19:50,940
personal of a death in their life.
345
00:19:51,510 --> 00:19:55,360
And on day one, everyone
shares their stories of death.
346
00:19:55,420 --> 00:19:57,350
So you can imagine the
space that opened up.
347
00:19:57,350 --> 00:20:00,880
It's very raw, very tender, very powerful.
348
00:20:01,449 --> 00:20:04,739
And so this woman shared the
story of the death of her baby.
349
00:20:05,740 --> 00:20:11,635
And Of course, it was very powerful
and very real and raw for her.
350
00:20:11,975 --> 00:20:16,394
She said, Helen, she said, I'm so glad
that I was at home, in my own home.
351
00:20:17,065 --> 00:20:21,205
And she said that I, I know if I had
been in a room full of people I'd
352
00:20:21,205 --> 00:20:26,004
just met that morning, I wouldn't
have gone where I went with my story.
353
00:20:27,014 --> 00:20:29,945
But that I could on the breaks
turn my camera off and turn
354
00:20:29,945 --> 00:20:31,485
my mic off and sit back.
355
00:20:32,100 --> 00:20:34,670
and take care of me and have a break.
356
00:20:35,020 --> 00:20:36,530
She said it made all the difference.
357
00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:37,840
Catherine: Wow.
358
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:38,250
That's interesting.
359
00:20:38,290 --> 00:20:39,129
Isn't that amazing?
360
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:39,889
Helen: Isn't it?
361
00:20:40,139 --> 00:20:43,399
Another woman said, Helen, and
this woman is someone who's done
362
00:20:43,399 --> 00:20:46,970
a lot of corporate training and a
lot of, you know, at a high level.
363
00:20:47,959 --> 00:20:50,909
She said, Helen, I, I travel, I've
traveled all over the world to do
364
00:20:50,939 --> 00:20:55,520
training and you come home with your
suitcase and your manuals and you,
365
00:20:55,520 --> 00:21:00,199
you know, you, you, you, then you go,
okay, how do I now integrate this?
366
00:21:00,614 --> 00:21:02,794
Into my life back into the office.
367
00:21:02,794 --> 00:21:03,905
How do I do that now?
368
00:21:04,235 --> 00:21:09,455
Bringing this rare experience from another
across the sea or whatever another town?
369
00:21:09,914 --> 00:21:10,654
How do I do that?
370
00:21:10,995 --> 00:21:12,344
She said, what's great Helen?
371
00:21:12,344 --> 00:21:14,544
She said is I did this at home.
372
00:21:14,874 --> 00:21:17,894
My home office now has got
my doula map up on there.
373
00:21:17,904 --> 00:21:22,524
It's got this up there and she said
doula is alive for me in my home already.
374
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:23,410
both: Yeah, from
375
00:21:23,410 --> 00:21:27,879
Helen: the day I finished the course,
so it's got pros and cons, you know, I
376
00:21:27,879 --> 00:21:31,259
know some people still want to do and
we are doing starting to do a little
377
00:21:31,259 --> 00:21:35,909
weenie bit of face to face training, sort
of as much as I can get out to do it.
378
00:21:35,980 --> 00:21:42,300
But, uh, you know, I think that it's
that pivot time when we pivoted, that's
379
00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:45,660
when we started working on the cert
for because here's what happened,
380
00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:50,179
Catherine, if you remember, job seeker
was out, but people were at home.
381
00:21:50,179 --> 00:21:50,260
Yeah.
382
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,190
So, people had some extra
money, people had extra time,
383
00:21:54,190 --> 00:21:57,520
but their courses just filled.
384
00:21:58,070 --> 00:22:03,820
Because people who'd been wanting to do
this for ages but couldn't get four days,
385
00:22:04,250 --> 00:22:07,870
all of a sudden were like, oh my god,
my opportunity's here, I'm jumping in.
386
00:22:08,645 --> 00:22:08,785
both: So
387
00:22:08,785 --> 00:22:12,245
Helen: all of a sudden, and also
every time I used to fly away to
388
00:22:12,245 --> 00:22:16,245
do a four day training, it was,
that was seven days out of my week.
389
00:22:17,225 --> 00:22:21,765
So all of a sudden I'm just going into the
office and leaving, I'm not traveling, I'm
390
00:22:21,765 --> 00:22:24,165
not packing my three 23 kilos suitcases.
391
00:22:24,404 --> 00:22:28,065
I'm not setting up a, you know, an
apartment and I'm not doing all the
392
00:22:28,065 --> 00:22:30,745
shopping and the catering and the right.
393
00:22:31,465 --> 00:22:34,375
I was just walking to
the screen and leaving.
394
00:22:34,805 --> 00:22:37,845
So all of a sudden I had
time and we had the resource.
395
00:22:37,855 --> 00:22:40,055
So I went, Oh, I can hire a team.
396
00:22:40,075 --> 00:22:42,564
Cause I was a one girl show up until then.
397
00:22:43,165 --> 00:22:43,985
It was a one girl show.
398
00:22:44,515 --> 00:22:46,665
So I was able to hire a team.
399
00:22:46,835 --> 00:22:49,745
So we just, I went right
now we're on the surfboard.
400
00:22:50,155 --> 00:22:50,605
both: Wow.
401
00:22:50,615 --> 00:22:50,765
So
402
00:22:50,765 --> 00:22:51,545
Helen: that's what we did.
403
00:22:51,775 --> 00:22:52,425
And we started.
404
00:22:53,034 --> 00:22:55,894
So it sounds like it was a total
period of growth for you then.
405
00:22:56,875 --> 00:22:57,605
Yes.
406
00:22:57,935 --> 00:23:04,665
And, and I can honestly say
Catherine, nothing could have
407
00:23:04,665 --> 00:23:07,175
prepared me for how much it has taken.
408
00:23:07,895 --> 00:23:12,135
It, it, it has taken not only
those two years, we have spent
409
00:23:12,274 --> 00:23:14,104
hundreds of thousands of dollars.
410
00:23:14,985 --> 00:23:15,425
On it.
411
00:23:15,435 --> 00:23:19,735
It's taken everything and I
don't regret it one little bit.
412
00:23:19,935 --> 00:23:20,905
Would I do it again?
413
00:23:21,555 --> 00:23:23,145
Yeah, possibly not.
414
00:23:23,744 --> 00:23:26,605
But at the same time, it now exists.
415
00:23:26,645 --> 00:23:31,645
And, you know, honestly, I got, I,
I lived into the end of last year.
416
00:23:31,674 --> 00:23:32,555
I really did.
417
00:23:32,675 --> 00:23:37,625
I, I just, I remember saying to my co
owner, Catherine, who's also my bestie.
418
00:23:37,645 --> 00:23:40,995
I banged my fist on the desk
one night and I said, that's it.
419
00:23:41,725 --> 00:23:45,985
I said, if preparing the way
and our work isn't flourishing.
420
00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:50,430
By the end of 2024, I'm
going to go and drive Ubers.
421
00:23:51,250 --> 00:23:54,500
I'm not going to shut the doors,
but because I, I just, I was like,
422
00:23:54,919 --> 00:23:56,840
how much more will this take?
423
00:23:57,785 --> 00:24:03,355
But you know what, I took some time off
over Christmas and I don't know, somehow
424
00:24:03,355 --> 00:24:07,935
something shifted and I've got my mojo
back and I'm on fire more than damn ever.
425
00:24:08,945 --> 00:24:09,895
And that's very
426
00:24:09,895 --> 00:24:14,554
Catherine: good to hear, but is that
the thing, is that like, do you need to
427
00:24:14,555 --> 00:24:18,125
just set aside that time where you just
say, okay, I just need some time out?
428
00:24:18,935 --> 00:24:19,754
Helen: A hundred percent.
429
00:24:19,825 --> 00:24:20,425
A hundred percent.
430
00:24:20,555 --> 00:24:21,845
We all do, right?
431
00:24:21,875 --> 00:24:22,535
We all do.
432
00:24:22,535 --> 00:24:28,495
And I think particularly with the
world as complex as it is right now,
433
00:24:28,985 --> 00:24:33,834
you know, if you think about it,
Catherine, there's no stability anywhere.
434
00:24:33,844 --> 00:24:35,634
There's no stability in our climate.
435
00:24:36,064 --> 00:24:38,445
There's no stability in
our financial markets.
436
00:24:38,445 --> 00:24:40,014
There's no stability in real estate.
437
00:24:40,245 --> 00:24:44,365
There's no stability in between
the world and other countries.
438
00:24:44,895 --> 00:24:45,725
Do you get what I mean?
439
00:24:45,935 --> 00:24:46,195
both: Yeah.
440
00:24:46,195 --> 00:24:46,454
There's,
441
00:24:46,455 --> 00:24:47,545
Helen: there's no stability.
442
00:24:47,985 --> 00:24:51,614
And also, there's so much
fallout from mental health and
443
00:24:51,614 --> 00:24:54,004
social well being from COVID.
444
00:24:54,645 --> 00:24:57,975
Um, there's so many challenges
for so many right now.
445
00:24:58,184 --> 00:25:00,625
Domestic violence is at an all time high.
446
00:25:00,884 --> 00:25:02,965
Suicide is at an all time high.
447
00:25:03,485 --> 00:25:06,505
You know, there's so much our
youth are really struggling.
448
00:25:06,825 --> 00:25:09,345
There's so many challenges
that people have right now,
449
00:25:09,375 --> 00:25:10,875
interest rates, the whole thing.
450
00:25:12,935 --> 00:25:20,655
I don't think self care or taking
time out or doing things that
451
00:25:20,905 --> 00:25:24,864
support our well being has ever
been more important than it is now.
452
00:25:25,494 --> 00:25:27,084
It's a very complex world.
453
00:25:27,505 --> 00:25:32,344
And then you add to that what can
often be a very fearful and stressful
454
00:25:32,354 --> 00:25:35,864
thing, like someone in our family
that we love or someone close to us
455
00:25:35,864 --> 00:25:41,675
that's got a diagnosis or advancing in
age or living with dementia or dying.
456
00:25:42,159 --> 00:25:48,520
Or dead, suddenly, you know, there's
just so much to carry for all of us.
457
00:25:49,490 --> 00:25:51,840
Catherine: And what are the
things that have worked for you
458
00:25:51,850 --> 00:25:53,300
when you take that time out?
459
00:25:53,679 --> 00:25:54,560
Is it a break?
460
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:55,620
Is it meditation?
461
00:25:55,620 --> 00:25:56,370
Is it reading?
462
00:25:56,610 --> 00:25:58,350
What, what do you do personally?
463
00:25:58,769 --> 00:26:02,949
Helen: Personally, I, first and
foremost, I have a very good therapist.
464
00:26:03,009 --> 00:26:04,749
Cannot do it without a
really great therapist.
465
00:26:04,810 --> 00:26:07,370
I have a very trauma informed therapist.
466
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,700
So that is something that I
avail myself of regularly.
467
00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:13,640
I love to float in float tanks.
468
00:26:14,304 --> 00:26:14,455
both: Yeah.
469
00:26:14,534 --> 00:26:14,995
So that
470
00:26:14,995 --> 00:26:17,905
Helen: for me is like that sensory
deprivation where I could just
471
00:26:17,905 --> 00:26:19,475
go in, I'm a meditator as well.
472
00:26:19,475 --> 00:26:20,215
I meditate.
473
00:26:20,745 --> 00:26:21,264
I've never
474
00:26:21,264 --> 00:26:22,564
Catherine: tried the float tanks.
475
00:26:22,735 --> 00:26:24,274
Oh, Catherine.
476
00:26:24,385 --> 00:26:25,054
Is it saltwater?
477
00:26:25,915 --> 00:26:26,274
Helen: Yeah.
478
00:26:26,274 --> 00:26:28,365
It's, it's like, you know, Epsom salts.
479
00:26:28,444 --> 00:26:28,884
both: Yeah.
480
00:26:28,885 --> 00:26:29,175
Yeah.
481
00:26:29,225 --> 00:26:29,685
Helen: Right.
482
00:26:29,955 --> 00:26:33,539
And there's like hundreds
of pounds of Epsom salts.
483
00:26:33,730 --> 00:26:38,889
The water's like about this deep, right,
about maybe a foot deep, and you just
484
00:26:38,889 --> 00:26:40,860
bob to the surface, you're like a cork.
485
00:26:41,310 --> 00:26:41,970
Catherine: Yeah, wow.
486
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,689
Helen: And, and, and here's what I suggest
you do, and if anyone's trying it for
487
00:26:46,690 --> 00:26:50,010
you, I say book at least two sessions.
488
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,590
Because the first session you're
like, okay, what's happening?
489
00:26:53,780 --> 00:26:54,550
Where do I get out?
490
00:26:54,590 --> 00:26:55,210
Can I get out?
491
00:26:55,210 --> 00:26:55,790
Will it be all right?
492
00:26:55,790 --> 00:26:56,610
Will I be all right?
493
00:26:56,610 --> 00:26:57,770
Your mind's just going, right?
494
00:26:57,770 --> 00:27:01,340
But once you've done it the first
time, it's like, okay, okay, I
495
00:27:01,340 --> 00:27:02,370
know what the routine is now.
496
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:02,540
Right.
497
00:27:02,570 --> 00:27:04,310
And you get it and you'll
probably have a better float.
498
00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:05,310
Third one, even better.
499
00:27:05,870 --> 00:27:09,990
So I, I, I, I try and float
probably every two weeks.
500
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:11,870
I'm going to, I'm doing it
weekly at the moment because
501
00:27:11,870 --> 00:27:12,850
I've got a fair bit going on.
502
00:27:13,180 --> 00:27:13,670
both: Oh, wow.
503
00:27:13,670 --> 00:27:14,200
That's amazing.
504
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:14,620
Bye
505
00:27:14,620 --> 00:27:14,639
Helen: bye.
506
00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:16,540
Yeah, so that's one of my things.
507
00:27:16,540 --> 00:27:18,580
The other thing for me is silence.
508
00:27:18,780 --> 00:27:22,130
So obviously meditation, but also
sometimes just staring out the window
509
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,500
is reading, you know, just taking time.
510
00:27:25,529 --> 00:27:27,950
I, I love, I love trees.
511
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,690
I grew up in the bush, so trees
for me are like my friends.
512
00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:35,310
So sometimes just going for, and
just sitting listening to the
513
00:27:35,310 --> 00:27:37,950
wind in the trees, oh my god,
that for me is like ointment.
514
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:44,470
The other thing is, for me, I have a
very strong, powerful team around me.
515
00:27:45,135 --> 00:27:47,665
So that's my team that I work with.
516
00:27:47,905 --> 00:27:53,275
It's also I live with my sister, who is
very grounded and very grounding for me.
517
00:27:53,585 --> 00:27:57,515
I have my spiritual
teacher and my, my mentors.
518
00:27:57,855 --> 00:28:01,534
I've got my colleagues that I
work with, you know, Libby Maloney
519
00:28:01,534 --> 00:28:05,445
from Natural Grace, Julie Fletcher
from Doula Connections, Catherine,
520
00:28:05,455 --> 00:28:07,125
who's my bestie and co owner.
521
00:28:07,355 --> 00:28:14,355
So I've got this amazing group around
me that, that, um, Help me stay focused
522
00:28:14,355 --> 00:28:19,535
and centered, you know, yeah, and then
on other nights, there's a glass of wine
523
00:28:19,735 --> 00:28:22,704
that helps and sometimes chocolate even.
524
00:28:23,145 --> 00:28:26,614
Catherine: And is that something you
teach in the course, the importance
525
00:28:26,615 --> 00:28:28,434
of self care with being a doula?
526
00:28:28,435 --> 00:28:28,864
Oh, yeah,
527
00:28:28,915 --> 00:28:29,485
Helen: 100%.
528
00:28:29,545 --> 00:28:30,394
Yes, yes.
529
00:28:30,394 --> 00:28:36,265
Look, the truth is, Catherine, in my
personal opinion, you cannot do this
530
00:28:36,265 --> 00:28:43,870
work in a sustainable way, uh, without
putting a strong focus on self care.
531
00:28:44,820 --> 00:28:48,379
Because the thing is that
you can't do this work in a
532
00:28:48,379 --> 00:28:49,939
silo, is another thing I say.
533
00:28:49,949 --> 00:28:51,129
You can't do this work alone.
534
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,170
And people often say, well, you
know, really, what are you doing?
535
00:28:55,220 --> 00:28:56,259
It's not like physical labor.
536
00:28:56,259 --> 00:28:59,360
No, it's, it's more emotional
and spiritual labor, this work.
537
00:29:00,029 --> 00:29:01,769
And it's about holding space.
538
00:29:01,829 --> 00:29:05,475
You know, that's a term that Heather
Plett, Speaks a lot about, and I,
539
00:29:05,545 --> 00:29:08,955
I love to acknowledge her for that
because it's, she's written an amazing
540
00:29:08,955 --> 00:29:10,775
book called The Art of Holding Space.
541
00:29:10,775 --> 00:29:15,125
One I recommend anyone who's in the
service industry of any description or
542
00:29:15,765 --> 00:29:24,545
should read Holding Space that we, we are
constantly in the face of things that can
543
00:29:24,545 --> 00:29:26,375
be emotionally challenging for people.
544
00:29:26,375 --> 00:29:30,645
We might be in the middle of argy
bargy and family relationships.
545
00:29:30,645 --> 00:29:30,705
Thank you.
546
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,830
We might be in the, in the middle
of dealing with something that's
547
00:29:34,830 --> 00:29:36,850
a very traumatic event for people.
548
00:29:37,650 --> 00:29:38,890
There's a lot of grief.
549
00:29:39,390 --> 00:29:43,910
And so we really have to be
able to sustain ourselves and
550
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:45,430
we have to have boundaries.
551
00:29:46,110 --> 00:29:48,159
And that's a word that
I couldn't even spell.
552
00:29:48,859 --> 00:29:52,353
And the reason I know how important
self care is, is because I've found out.
553
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:54,100
And I know what it is.
554
00:29:54,180 --> 00:29:57,110
And I know, I know what causes it for me.
555
00:29:57,470 --> 00:29:58,900
I think it's different
for different people.
556
00:29:58,900 --> 00:30:04,410
But so I think, and that's why I, I
recommend, I just wish everybody at
557
00:30:04,730 --> 00:30:10,099
birth was given a really great therapist
and a Reiki practitioner at birth.
558
00:30:10,855 --> 00:30:11,315
Right?
559
00:30:11,685 --> 00:30:14,965
You know, because Reiki is another
thing that's, that's part of myself.
560
00:30:14,965 --> 00:30:16,665
I do Reiki on myself every single day.
561
00:30:17,185 --> 00:30:20,285
And so, you know, that's
another thing for me.
562
00:30:20,345 --> 00:30:21,554
I take a lot of supplements.
563
00:30:21,605 --> 00:30:23,135
You know, there's a lot
of different things.
564
00:30:23,564 --> 00:30:25,925
This, this is critical
in this work, self care.
565
00:30:25,925 --> 00:30:27,175
It's not an option, I say.
566
00:30:27,234 --> 00:30:28,165
It's a necessity.
567
00:30:28,355 --> 00:30:28,595
Yeah.
568
00:30:29,415 --> 00:30:30,775
If you, if you don't want
to burn out, that is.
569
00:30:30,895 --> 00:30:31,795
Catherine: Yeah, yeah.
570
00:30:32,225 --> 00:30:37,885
And what other qualities do you think
that a doula should have, you know,
571
00:30:38,095 --> 00:30:41,545
if they're looking at this work, what
sort of person, personal qualities?
572
00:30:42,045 --> 00:30:44,164
Helen: Yeah, look, that's
a really good question.
573
00:30:44,274 --> 00:30:47,215
And we talk about qualities
and traits in our training.
574
00:30:47,864 --> 00:30:53,415
And, and look, I think some of the things
that I would say are most critical in
575
00:30:53,415 --> 00:30:58,115
my experience, and I would have five, 10
years ago, I would have said differently.
576
00:30:58,885 --> 00:31:01,965
But my work now, and I think, and this
is one of the things, Catherine, if
577
00:31:01,965 --> 00:31:07,535
I can just, if you like, uh, preempt
the answer by saying this, is that
578
00:31:08,455 --> 00:31:16,685
there's nowhere to get in this work,
that as I work alongside families, and
579
00:31:16,754 --> 00:31:22,765
I share experiences with families or
individuals, as I teach, as I share
580
00:31:22,885 --> 00:31:29,370
stories with other Doolas, and people,
students, that I'm changing all the time.
581
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,430
I'm growing all the time.
582
00:31:32,420 --> 00:31:35,540
And so there's nowhere to get to.
583
00:31:36,490 --> 00:31:39,640
And who I am today as a
doula is very different.
584
00:31:39,649 --> 00:31:45,090
So what I would say today about what
are the primary qualities that I look
585
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:50,870
for when I'm looking for a doula or
recommending a doula to someone else
586
00:31:50,900 --> 00:31:56,470
is their capacity to be present,
their capacity to come from their
587
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,499
heart and meet people where they are.
588
00:32:00,450 --> 00:32:08,250
That to be able to be and to be able to
listen, listening, oh my God, listening to
589
00:32:08,250 --> 00:32:11,389
listen, not listening to talk next, right?
590
00:32:12,339 --> 00:32:13,260
True listening.
591
00:32:13,980 --> 00:32:18,559
And also, I think one of the
biggest qualities and traits is
592
00:32:18,559 --> 00:32:24,620
to be able to develop a skill at
giving up attachment to outcome.
593
00:32:25,625 --> 00:32:30,245
Because if we go in there, and as I have
done, as I have done, how do I know this?
594
00:32:30,445 --> 00:32:31,085
Because I've done it.
595
00:32:31,625 --> 00:32:33,405
If we go in there with a Mrs.
596
00:32:33,405 --> 00:32:37,414
Fix It attitude, like there is something
wrong here and I'm here to fix it,
597
00:32:37,645 --> 00:32:42,075
Bum ball, wrong, answer will get
you into all sorts of strife, right?
598
00:32:42,964 --> 00:32:46,945
Because I, the thing to me is
this, I used to be a real Mrs.
599
00:32:46,945 --> 00:32:49,575
Fix It, and I was very skilled at it.
600
00:32:49,825 --> 00:32:52,725
I would go in, what, tell me, everything's
going, I would go, whoosh, whoosh,
601
00:32:52,755 --> 00:32:56,720
whoosh, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, And
then I'd swan out the door feeling
602
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,850
very self satisfied, done a great job.
603
00:32:58,850 --> 00:32:59,530
But guess what?
604
00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:03,360
I actually left them no more empowered.
605
00:33:03,610 --> 00:33:05,600
They actually became more dependent.
606
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:07,460
Does that make sense?
607
00:33:07,850 --> 00:33:08,220
both: Yeah.
608
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:08,490
So if
609
00:33:08,490 --> 00:33:12,249
Helen: I'm there to actually
support people to go, you know what?
610
00:33:12,249 --> 00:33:13,169
You've got this.
611
00:33:13,679 --> 00:33:14,659
You can do this.
612
00:33:14,710 --> 00:33:16,930
This is not rocket science,
what we're doing here.
613
00:33:16,930 --> 00:33:19,530
This is about caring and responding.
614
00:33:19,975 --> 00:33:24,515
And we talk at Preparing the Way a
lot about being response able, being
615
00:33:24,575 --> 00:33:29,424
able to respond to what's in front
of you, not what your agenda is.
616
00:33:30,045 --> 00:33:32,625
You know, you might have made an
appointment to go and visit someone
617
00:33:32,625 --> 00:33:36,494
today to make their funeral plan, but
you get there and they've just got
618
00:33:36,494 --> 00:33:40,305
the shits, or they're just upset, or
they're, they're not feeling well.
619
00:33:40,525 --> 00:33:44,305
If we can't meet them where they are
in the moment, we're, we're gonna
620
00:33:44,305 --> 00:33:48,305
just walk all over that, because
we're paddling to our agenda.
621
00:33:48,305 --> 00:33:49,034
Does that make sense?
622
00:33:49,795 --> 00:33:51,145
.
Catherine: Yeah, it does make sense.
623
00:33:51,385 --> 00:33:51,835
Helen: Yeah.
624
00:33:51,835 --> 00:33:56,565
And I, and I think that the, the
big thing is nothing to fix here.
625
00:33:57,045 --> 00:34:01,935
One of the things about doula is being, as
I said, not being attached to the outcome.
626
00:34:02,915 --> 00:34:06,335
Because someone I said to, and I
often ask this of a doula, so tell
627
00:34:06,340 --> 00:34:07,415
me why do you wanna be a doula?
628
00:34:07,685 --> 00:34:10,445
Oh, I wanna have people
help have a peaceful death.
629
00:34:11,375 --> 00:34:15,095
And I'll go, well, good luck with
that, because some people don't.
630
00:34:15,765 --> 00:34:16,305
Yeah.
631
00:34:16,810 --> 00:34:20,740
And if you've got an attachment to
that, you're going to be in all sorts
632
00:34:20,740 --> 00:34:25,440
of trouble, and you're going to be
imposing your view upon the person.
633
00:34:26,430 --> 00:34:31,680
See, the thing about doolering is,
you are the expert in your life.
634
00:34:32,270 --> 00:34:36,270
My client is the expert, the
family is the expert, not me.
635
00:34:37,270 --> 00:34:41,420
So what I'm there to do is to ask
questions and listen and draw out
636
00:34:41,430 --> 00:34:43,870
from them, what are their preferences.
637
00:34:44,330 --> 00:34:46,200
Do they know what their options are?
638
00:34:46,210 --> 00:34:47,670
Let's look at your options.
639
00:34:47,900 --> 00:34:52,800
Let's help you navigate what feels
the right thing to you because you're
640
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,360
the expert in your life, not me.
641
00:34:55,190 --> 00:34:58,300
And as far as my tick
list goes, is it legal?
642
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:00,250
Is it safe?
643
00:35:00,780 --> 00:35:01,630
And is it possible?
644
00:35:02,620 --> 00:35:04,769
And if it ticks those three boxes, I'm in.
645
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:05,730
No agenda.
646
00:35:06,730 --> 00:35:11,000
Catherine: It sounds like it's one
of the very few occupations where
647
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,509
you can actually say it is selfless.
648
00:35:14,535 --> 00:35:15,255
Helen: On a good day.
649
00:35:16,235 --> 00:35:16,855
A good day.
650
00:35:16,975 --> 00:35:20,335
Because the truth is, Catherine,
we're human damn beings, right?
651
00:35:20,345 --> 00:35:20,805
Yeah, yeah.
652
00:35:21,135 --> 00:35:23,825
And the thing is, you know, one of the
things I talk about in the training
653
00:35:23,825 --> 00:35:28,165
and, and, is, is that, you know, I
have people come to me going, Helen,
654
00:35:28,165 --> 00:35:31,705
Helen, I'm thinking about giving
up chemotherapy, what do you think?
655
00:35:32,554 --> 00:35:33,715
Now, I'm a human being.
656
00:35:34,145 --> 00:35:35,664
I am going to have an opinion, Catherine.
657
00:35:36,664 --> 00:35:39,034
And I'm going to believe I'm right
about that opinion too, what's
658
00:35:39,035 --> 00:35:40,145
more, because I'm a human being.
659
00:35:40,285 --> 00:35:43,915
However, I zip my lip and my
standard response is this, well,
660
00:35:44,204 --> 00:35:45,415
let's look at your options.
661
00:35:46,435 --> 00:35:49,735
If you do stop chemotherapy, there's
going to be pros and cons to that.
662
00:35:49,745 --> 00:35:50,745
Let's look at those.
663
00:35:51,245 --> 00:35:53,035
If we don't know what they
are, let's go find them out.
664
00:35:54,055 --> 00:35:57,224
If you don't stop chemotherapy,
there's pros and cons there too.
665
00:35:57,675 --> 00:35:58,695
Let's look at those.
666
00:35:58,765 --> 00:36:03,674
Now, out of all those options, what
feels the right thing to you right now?
667
00:36:04,615 --> 00:36:07,825
On the understanding, you can
change your mind tomorrow because
668
00:36:07,825 --> 00:36:08,955
you're in, you're in charge.
669
00:36:09,225 --> 00:36:12,385
We talk at Preparing the Way about
giving people back the three C's.
670
00:36:12,725 --> 00:36:17,445
Choice, capacity, and control,
and facilitating a journey.
671
00:36:18,135 --> 00:36:21,045
Catherine: And you mentioned
just briefly earlier on, you were
672
00:36:21,045 --> 00:36:23,665
talking about there's ten stages?
673
00:36:23,795 --> 00:36:24,805
Helen: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
674
00:36:24,805 --> 00:36:29,375
So Natural Grace, who I mentioned
before, created a model that we,
675
00:36:29,385 --> 00:36:31,254
we call the ten stages of life.
676
00:36:32,095 --> 00:36:34,535
And the model talks about that.
677
00:36:35,530 --> 00:36:40,090
And I'll go through the 10 stages and
then I'll give you an analogy around it.
678
00:36:40,090 --> 00:36:44,650
So the first stage is a
person is living well, right?
679
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,089
But we say as an end of life
doula, I work with people in every
680
00:36:48,089 --> 00:36:50,009
one of these 10 stages, right?
681
00:36:50,020 --> 00:36:51,770
So the first one is a
person's living well.
682
00:36:52,165 --> 00:36:54,945
They're not particularly aged, they're
not, there's no diagnosis, but they're
683
00:36:54,945 --> 00:36:56,555
looking to put their plans in place.
684
00:36:56,555 --> 00:36:59,665
Maybe they're going overseas,
maybe they have elderly parents.
685
00:36:59,875 --> 00:37:03,525
So I work with a doula in
those, in that stage, right?
686
00:37:03,624 --> 00:37:05,334
I have clients that everything's fine.
687
00:37:05,754 --> 00:37:06,465
They're just doing planning.
688
00:37:07,015 --> 00:37:10,234
Then, then maybe there's a
diagnosis enters the picture
689
00:37:10,235 --> 00:37:11,965
or they're advancing in age.
690
00:37:12,305 --> 00:37:14,215
So then I'm, I'm working with people.
691
00:37:14,755 --> 00:37:16,295
in that section, right?
692
00:37:16,675 --> 00:37:19,285
But then maybe if there's a
diagnosis, maybe they start
693
00:37:19,305 --> 00:37:22,415
having treatment or they're living
with their illness or ageing.
694
00:37:22,765 --> 00:37:24,034
I'm working with people there.
695
00:37:24,705 --> 00:37:28,465
But then their treatment may stop
working or they're advancing in their
696
00:37:28,475 --> 00:37:31,524
illness or ageing to a point where
they need to move into palliative care.
697
00:37:32,095 --> 00:37:33,225
I work with people there.
698
00:37:33,995 --> 00:37:37,185
Then the last stage of palliative
care is called active dying.
699
00:37:38,060 --> 00:37:42,110
And that is a recognized set of
symptoms and signs that show that
700
00:37:42,110 --> 00:37:45,890
a person is now very close and in
the imminent, death is imminent.
701
00:37:46,399 --> 00:37:47,220
And then they die.
702
00:37:47,870 --> 00:37:51,470
I work with people there, but
then that's only halfway down.
703
00:37:52,299 --> 00:37:57,680
Then there is home based and family
led after death care, vigil, ceremony.
704
00:37:57,930 --> 00:37:59,690
What are we doing after their death?
705
00:38:00,510 --> 00:38:04,590
And then we might be doing funeral
planning and then we might have a
706
00:38:04,660 --> 00:38:06,960
memorial or a celebration or a funeral.
707
00:38:07,679 --> 00:38:08,889
I'm working with people there.
708
00:38:09,545 --> 00:38:13,575
Then we actually are doing the final stage
of returning the body to the elements.
709
00:38:14,275 --> 00:38:15,245
I work with people there.
710
00:38:15,245 --> 00:38:20,274
But then we circle back around, this
circle of life we talk about, we
711
00:38:20,275 --> 00:38:21,905
circle back around to the living.
712
00:38:22,725 --> 00:38:28,084
Now supporting the living, the people
left behind when someone has left their
713
00:38:28,084 --> 00:38:30,794
world, so we can work with people there.
714
00:38:31,644 --> 00:38:35,415
So in those 10 stages, and I want you
to think about this, this, this to
715
00:38:35,415 --> 00:38:42,265
me is the key point, is that end of
life doula, is the only professional
716
00:38:42,275 --> 00:38:49,295
role that I know of where there
is absolute continuity of care.
717
00:38:50,285 --> 00:38:53,035
So I start, can start
with someone at diagnosis.
718
00:38:54,030 --> 00:38:57,950
And I'm right there all the way
through that entire journey, right
719
00:38:57,950 --> 00:39:01,460
through the end, to when they've
died, been returned to the elements,
720
00:39:01,460 --> 00:39:02,790
and now I'm supporting the family.
721
00:39:03,790 --> 00:39:06,950
You think about it, because
let's say I noticed a lump.
722
00:39:07,940 --> 00:39:12,489
I would go to my GP, and my GP
would send me off for diagnostics.
723
00:39:12,499 --> 00:39:16,320
Maybe I'd have scans and x
rays and bloods and biopsies.
724
00:39:16,550 --> 00:39:18,230
I've got a diagnostic team.
725
00:39:19,090 --> 00:39:21,530
Then they come back to
the GP with the diagnosis.
726
00:39:21,530 --> 00:39:22,710
That team drop off.
727
00:39:23,695 --> 00:39:25,295
But then I'm sent for treatment.
728
00:39:25,315 --> 00:39:28,825
Maybe I'm having surgery,
chemo, radio, immunotherapy,
729
00:39:29,025 --> 00:39:30,235
complimenting, whatever I'm doing.
730
00:39:30,285 --> 00:39:31,585
But I've got a treatment team.
731
00:39:32,645 --> 00:39:35,784
But then after a period of time,
my treatment stops working.
732
00:39:35,945 --> 00:39:38,674
I'm now entering palliative care,
the treatment team drop off.
733
00:39:39,325 --> 00:39:42,074
Now I've got a brand new team,
palliative care team now.
734
00:39:42,685 --> 00:39:45,065
And they're great,
critical to my wellbeing.
735
00:39:45,595 --> 00:39:48,285
Then I moved to active
dying, but then I die.
736
00:39:49,285 --> 00:39:50,475
Palliative care team will leave.
737
00:39:51,175 --> 00:39:52,755
Now I've got a brand new team again.
738
00:39:52,755 --> 00:39:57,825
My family do anyway, got a funeral
team, but then the funeral happens and
739
00:39:57,825 --> 00:40:02,224
then they leave and then my family is
left with a hole where I used to be.
740
00:40:03,135 --> 00:40:07,775
And then they're navigating this
new normal with what do we do now?
741
00:40:08,785 --> 00:40:09,635
How do we do this?
742
00:40:09,665 --> 00:40:10,305
What do we do?
743
00:40:11,295 --> 00:40:12,435
End of life doula.
744
00:40:12,875 --> 00:40:17,155
Can accompany someone every step
of that journey, and that's unique.
745
00:40:17,935 --> 00:40:20,235
Catherine: And what seems to be
interesting also in that model that you
746
00:40:20,235 --> 00:40:27,895
were just discussing, is that the, the
client changes also during that process.
747
00:40:27,905 --> 00:40:33,004
So it is actually the person
who is well and planning, and
748
00:40:33,004 --> 00:40:34,029
then the person who is not.
749
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:40,380
It's dying and then they die, but then
it transforms to supporting the family.
750
00:40:40,810 --> 00:40:45,260
So it actually has sort
of like two roles, is it
751
00:40:45,260 --> 00:40:45,579
Helen: right?
752
00:40:45,579 --> 00:40:46,519
Yes, it is.
753
00:40:46,549 --> 00:40:50,479
And the actual, and it's not like
you're supporting one then the other.
754
00:40:51,010 --> 00:40:55,050
Generally speaking, in the majority of
cases, you're, you're simultaneously
755
00:40:55,050 --> 00:40:58,390
supporting both because they're
all going through different things.
756
00:40:59,260 --> 00:41:05,039
So sometimes I work with simply the
client and they're navigating their
757
00:41:05,039 --> 00:41:08,460
own journey or they're estranged from
family or they don't have family.
758
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,120
So sometimes I'm working
solely with the client.
759
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,310
Sometimes I work solely with
the family and I never meet
760
00:41:14,310 --> 00:41:15,500
the person with the diagnosis.
761
00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:16,870
Right?
762
00:41:17,670 --> 00:41:21,020
Some, because the family goes, and
could you imagine some people like, I
763
00:41:21,090 --> 00:41:24,080
don't want someone poking around at my
end of life, let's get away with it.
764
00:41:24,730 --> 00:41:27,899
But the family want the support
to know that they're doing
765
00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:29,180
and they've got their options,
766
00:41:29,599 --> 00:41:29,949
both: sort of,
767
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:30,680
Helen: does that make sense?
768
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:31,380
both: Yeah.
769
00:41:31,429 --> 00:41:36,520
Helen: But then, uh, after that, we
also work with the family after death
770
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,240
as well, as you say, but you're very,
that was an accurate and insightful
771
00:41:40,250 --> 00:41:41,300
statement, Catherine, about family.
772
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:46,390
That the person aging or, or living
with the diagnosis and ultimately
773
00:41:46,590 --> 00:41:51,230
dying, there's stages, they're going
through stages and there's constant
774
00:41:51,230 --> 00:41:55,749
change and this is it, you know, where
we've really got to be able to be
775
00:41:55,749 --> 00:42:00,680
adaptable and, and, and flexible as
an end of life doula because today's
776
00:42:00,690 --> 00:42:02,610
solution can become tomorrow's problem.
777
00:42:03,225 --> 00:42:06,795
You know, so you've just got to be
able to be in the flow and adapt
778
00:42:06,905 --> 00:42:08,555
and be very flexible, you know.
779
00:42:09,535 --> 00:42:12,744
Catherine: Now can you tell me about
last, was it last year that you received
780
00:42:12,755 --> 00:42:17,015
some funding from the New South Wales
Government to provide the accredited
781
00:42:17,245 --> 00:42:19,505
training in an aged care facility?
782
00:42:20,025 --> 00:42:22,764
Can you tell me a little bit
about that, that program?
783
00:42:23,234 --> 00:42:24,174
Yes, that was amazing.
784
00:42:24,184 --> 00:42:26,434
Obviously it's never
happened before I'm assuming.
785
00:42:26,444 --> 00:42:26,684
No.
786
00:42:27,180 --> 00:42:28,010
Helen: No, it hasn't.
787
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,340
And we've had an even bigger
development since then.
788
00:42:30,340 --> 00:42:34,640
So what happened was, through, through
again, through our RTO, Essential
789
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,830
Skills Training and Recruitment,
and they specialize in, in community
790
00:42:40,179 --> 00:42:42,570
centered sort of care training.
791
00:42:42,580 --> 00:42:46,689
That's what they do, community based
care and individual support and all that.
792
00:42:47,260 --> 00:42:50,800
And so they work a lot with aged
care facilities who are putting
793
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:51,780
their staff through training.
794
00:42:52,305 --> 00:42:57,075
So they set up this opportunity with
Baptist Care, uh, based in Newcastle
795
00:42:57,705 --> 00:43:03,345
and, and the government funded 16
of the Baptist Care staff to go
796
00:43:03,575 --> 00:43:06,565
through two of the accredited units.
797
00:43:06,935 --> 00:43:08,435
And it was called a skill set.
798
00:43:09,435 --> 00:43:14,625
And one of them was our, our enterprise
unit at preparing the way on active dying.
799
00:43:15,050 --> 00:43:20,880
So training the staff in how to be
more death comfortable, more death
800
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:26,450
confident, so that they could actually
be interacting with the residents
801
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:32,379
and or the families of people as they
were actively dying and support them,
802
00:43:32,549 --> 00:43:37,150
both, both, both parties, but then the
other unit was about palliative care.
803
00:43:37,870 --> 00:43:42,840
Now, we did one unit and then we took a
two week break and we did the second unit.
804
00:43:43,715 --> 00:43:47,665
The feedback after the first unit, when
they came back to do the second one
805
00:43:47,665 --> 00:43:52,594
was, and to see, and these 16 staff,
there was four of them were RNs, but
806
00:43:52,674 --> 00:43:57,895
all of the rest were floor staff, so
general support care workers, right?
807
00:43:57,935 --> 00:43:59,904
And I think we had an activities person.
808
00:44:00,024 --> 00:44:00,755
Four registered
809
00:44:00,975 --> 00:44:01,475
Catherine: nurses?
810
00:44:01,655 --> 00:44:05,625
Helen: No, no, four, four
registered nurses, yeah, of the 16.
811
00:44:05,715 --> 00:44:05,975
Catherine: Ah,
812
00:44:05,985 --> 00:44:06,205
Helen: okay.
813
00:44:06,215 --> 00:44:10,895
All the rest were like general care
staff, like care support staff.
814
00:44:10,895 --> 00:44:11,029
Okay.
815
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,760
And I think there was an
activities person and one of them
816
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:15,320
was a, was a manager as well.
817
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:21,130
So, and to hear the, the floor
staff who, who interviewed on day
818
00:44:21,130 --> 00:44:24,080
one, introduced themselves like,
Oh, I'm just a care support worker.
819
00:44:24,570 --> 00:44:25,920
I'm like, are you kidding?
820
00:44:26,340 --> 00:44:27,590
No, just about that.
821
00:44:27,599 --> 00:44:29,459
You're the person at the coalface, right?
822
00:44:29,999 --> 00:44:35,250
So to see these, care support
workers come back going, it worked.
823
00:44:35,350 --> 00:44:38,060
I was really able to talk to
someone and it made a difference
824
00:44:38,070 --> 00:44:38,930
for them and their family.
825
00:44:38,930 --> 00:44:41,700
And I was so lit up and so excited.
826
00:44:42,370 --> 00:44:48,079
And so it was so effective that Baptist
Care then contacted the RTO and said,
827
00:44:48,089 --> 00:44:53,220
we want to put this out to all of our
New South Wales and ACT properties.
828
00:44:54,220 --> 00:44:56,450
However, of course, then the
government funding changed.
829
00:44:56,975 --> 00:44:57,965
as funding does.
830
00:44:58,805 --> 00:45:03,165
So that hasn't happened at this point, but
I know it's something that they wanted.
831
00:45:03,585 --> 00:45:09,215
But what then happened in December is
that this is a real, really big deal.
832
00:45:09,925 --> 00:45:14,384
So the New South Wales government have
what they call a smart and skilled list.
833
00:45:15,185 --> 00:45:21,284
And smart and skilled list is professions
across every area of, of, of work, uh,
834
00:45:21,304 --> 00:45:23,574
professions that they say are needed.
835
00:45:24,685 --> 00:45:30,315
in the community, in the workspace, in
the workforce, and they actually provide
836
00:45:30,315 --> 00:45:36,075
subsidy funding towards people doing
that training to build the skill sets
837
00:45:36,164 --> 00:45:38,005
out in the community, in the workforce.
838
00:45:38,995 --> 00:45:43,294
So they have actually put our Cert
IV in end of life doula services
839
00:45:43,324 --> 00:45:44,745
on the smart and skilled list.
840
00:45:45,284 --> 00:45:45,724
both: Wow.
841
00:45:45,725 --> 00:45:50,290
Helen: So people living in New South
Wales and or working in New South
842
00:45:50,290 --> 00:45:56,000
Wales, and there's certain criteria and
eligibility, but they can now receive
843
00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:02,130
the majority of the tuition of the course
funded by the New South Wales government.
844
00:46:03,100 --> 00:46:05,919
And we just had, it's absolutely huge.
845
00:46:06,180 --> 00:46:10,480
The government, this is an
extraordinary endorsement and
846
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,220
validation of the power of this role.
847
00:46:13,620 --> 00:46:18,260
Because you think about it, there's some
stats that came out, um, internationally
848
00:46:18,990 --> 00:46:20,630
and Professor Alan Kelly here.
849
00:46:21,180 --> 00:46:23,360
Uh, actually shared them in a video.
850
00:46:24,110 --> 00:46:27,970
He talks about the 95 percent
and the 5 percent rule and
851
00:46:27,970 --> 00:46:29,670
this is, this is really key.
852
00:46:30,690 --> 00:46:39,559
So he says that only 5 percent of the time
a person is aging and dying or grieving.
853
00:46:39,890 --> 00:46:43,600
Only 5 percent of the time are they
in front of a doctor or a nurse.
854
00:46:44,850 --> 00:46:45,290
Five.
855
00:46:46,265 --> 00:46:51,575
90 percent of the time they are either
alone with their family, friends,
856
00:46:51,605 --> 00:46:57,295
community, maybe groups they're part
of, the TV, The internet or the dog.
857
00:46:58,205 --> 00:47:00,145
95 percent of the time.
858
00:47:00,745 --> 00:47:05,435
So End of Life Doula works
exclusively in that 95%.
859
00:47:05,995 --> 00:47:09,265
We don't do the medical and
clinical, we work alongside that.
860
00:47:10,085 --> 00:47:15,764
But we are about helping people become
death comfortable, death confident, and
861
00:47:15,764 --> 00:47:20,245
feeling because, you know, we outsourced
death about 100 years ago, right?
862
00:47:20,645 --> 00:47:25,855
We sent it to aged care facilities and
funeral directors and hospices and things.
863
00:47:26,125 --> 00:47:27,935
Now, nothing wrong with that, right?
864
00:47:27,935 --> 00:47:28,004
Right.
865
00:47:28,565 --> 00:47:35,665
But, it had an impact and a cost, and
the cost was we lost our confidence and
866
00:47:35,665 --> 00:47:40,795
our capacity to take care of our aging,
our dying, our dead, and our grieving.
867
00:47:41,805 --> 00:47:44,135
We've got to, as Libby Maloney
from Natural Grace says,
868
00:47:44,135 --> 00:47:46,564
we've got to reverse pioneer.
869
00:47:46,604 --> 00:47:49,615
We've got to bring back the
past like our grandparents and
870
00:47:49,615 --> 00:47:51,205
great grandparents used to do.
871
00:47:51,785 --> 00:47:52,565
We've got to do that.
872
00:47:52,625 --> 00:47:52,855
Yeah.
873
00:47:53,890 --> 00:47:55,390
And have the conversations.
874
00:47:56,010 --> 00:47:57,730
Yeah, no, no, no, absolutely.
875
00:47:57,910 --> 00:47:58,430
Mm hmm.
876
00:47:58,730 --> 00:47:59,520
That's the thing.
877
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,270
Catherine: And when a doula has completed
one of your courses, and look, it's
878
00:48:04,270 --> 00:48:09,400
amazing that you've managed to get on
that list and that that training can be
879
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:16,150
subsidised, but when doulas have completed
their training, what do they, do they
880
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:20,560
look at going into a care facility or do
they look at running their own business?
881
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:21,950
What are we sort of saying?
882
00:48:21,959 --> 00:48:23,950
How are they finding
employment afterwards?
883
00:48:24,595 --> 00:48:27,405
Helen: Well, this is a changing thing
because the thing to remember is
884
00:48:27,405 --> 00:48:32,425
this is an emerging industry and now
with the Cert IV there's a lot more
885
00:48:33,065 --> 00:48:37,515
interest in, in this role and that
was part of us doing this, right?
886
00:48:38,074 --> 00:48:40,425
So, doulas are faced with a few things.
887
00:48:41,124 --> 00:48:45,195
Firstly, the majority of doulas
who go on and actually take this
888
00:48:45,195 --> 00:48:47,915
work up, uh, they actually do.
889
00:48:47,915 --> 00:48:51,745
They either start their own practice
or their own small business.
890
00:48:52,630 --> 00:48:56,610
And we give them in the training,
we give them support and resources
891
00:48:56,660 --> 00:48:58,140
to about how to go about that.
892
00:48:58,150 --> 00:49:00,130
But as anyone who started
their own business will tell
893
00:49:00,130 --> 00:49:01,229
you, that's a big thing.
894
00:49:01,780 --> 00:49:04,259
You know, most businesses
fail in the first year.
895
00:49:04,819 --> 00:49:08,179
And, uh, so, you know,
that's, that's a big thing.
896
00:49:08,179 --> 00:49:12,830
But there are doulas now out there,
very successful, that are now getting
897
00:49:12,830 --> 00:49:17,930
employed through NDIS packaging,
and also My Aged Care packaging.
898
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,400
And I've been paid through both of those.
899
00:49:20,805 --> 00:49:21,875
packaging, right?
900
00:49:22,365 --> 00:49:26,535
There are also doulas out there
that are doing it, you know, uh,
901
00:49:26,575 --> 00:49:28,475
in, in their local communities.
902
00:49:28,984 --> 00:49:31,044
Doulas are out there doing death cafes.
903
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,690
And what we're, one of the things we
talk about in the four day intensive and
904
00:49:34,690 --> 00:49:41,139
we, we, and in the, in the CERT4, people
can choose, there's actually a, one of
905
00:49:41,140 --> 00:49:46,190
the modules is about doing a business
plan and creating new business, right?
906
00:49:46,190 --> 00:49:50,290
So that's the CERT4, but in the non
accredited training, in the four
907
00:49:50,290 --> 00:49:52,230
day, we do do work around this.
908
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,130
You know, how do you
talk about what you do?
909
00:49:54,140 --> 00:49:55,340
Where do you promote yourself?
910
00:49:55,370 --> 00:49:56,390
How do you do that?
911
00:49:56,730 --> 00:49:58,000
How do you get yourself out there?
912
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,090
Because as I say to the doulas,
what we have to confront.
913
00:50:01,750 --> 00:50:05,530
is you have to get known in
your communities and your
914
00:50:05,530 --> 00:50:07,560
world as the go to deaf person.
915
00:50:08,470 --> 00:50:09,440
How do you do that?
916
00:50:09,460 --> 00:50:12,300
You've got, you can't do that
sitting at home behind the door.
917
00:50:12,739 --> 00:50:13,989
You've got to be out there.
918
00:50:14,010 --> 00:50:15,189
You've got to be talking.
919
00:50:15,189 --> 00:50:17,989
And as you say, Catherine, sharing
the conversation, sharing the
920
00:50:17,989 --> 00:50:19,540
conversation, talking to people.
921
00:50:20,070 --> 00:50:22,430
You know, we've got one of our doulas
shared the other day, which I love,
922
00:50:22,430 --> 00:50:24,010
and other doulas are taking it up.
923
00:50:24,390 --> 00:50:28,300
She got herself a badge made with her
name on it and says, end of life doula.
924
00:50:28,490 --> 00:50:31,360
Anytime she walks out of the
house, she puts it on because
925
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:32,510
it's a conversation setter.
926
00:50:32,530 --> 00:50:33,140
What's that?
927
00:50:33,530 --> 00:50:33,940
both: Yeah.
928
00:50:34,020 --> 00:50:35,130
Helen: Another conversation.
929
00:50:35,510 --> 00:50:39,800
Because, you know, as Julia Fletcher said
from, from Doula Connections, she said,
930
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:45,354
Helen, until doula becomes as well known
as nurse, we've got a big job ahead of us.
931
00:50:46,355 --> 00:50:49,855
Because we have to, that's why talking
about Doola and why I'm always so
932
00:50:49,855 --> 00:50:53,835
grateful to be able to come on things
like your podcast, to be able to share
933
00:50:53,835 --> 00:50:59,314
about Doola because we have to be able to
show people and tell people here is what
934
00:50:59,314 --> 00:51:01,315
is available for you and your family.
935
00:51:01,325 --> 00:51:03,055
You don't have to do this alone.
936
00:51:03,634 --> 00:51:08,265
There are supports out there to give
you the confidence to do this so that
937
00:51:08,265 --> 00:51:11,625
when it's all over you can honestly
put your hand on your heart and go, you
938
00:51:11,625 --> 00:51:13,875
know what, we did a really good job.
939
00:51:14,495 --> 00:51:16,495
We gave them the send off they wanted.
940
00:51:16,525 --> 00:51:19,485
We took care of them at
home the way they wanted.
941
00:51:20,015 --> 00:51:22,565
Because that dullering has
to go, and people have to go
942
00:51:22,575 --> 00:51:23,864
back into their homes to die.
943
00:51:23,865 --> 00:51:24,855
There just aren't enough beds.
944
00:51:26,075 --> 00:51:27,895
And we can help people do that safely.
945
00:51:28,885 --> 00:51:31,595
Catherine: And what do you think
some of the significant challenges
946
00:51:31,595 --> 00:51:35,974
that families face when they,
you know, a loved one does die?
947
00:51:37,590 --> 00:51:42,520
Helen: The reason I'm pausing is because
there's so much that happens up to time.
948
00:51:42,550 --> 00:51:46,070
So I'm like, where do I, where do
I pick, where do I go with this?
949
00:51:47,060 --> 00:51:54,050
I would say one of the biggest things
that I see is our fear of grief and
950
00:51:54,110 --> 00:51:57,539
our culture, particularly in the West.
951
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,380
Our culture of she'll be right, I'm fine.
952
00:52:03,100 --> 00:52:04,550
Oh, it's been three months.
953
00:52:04,770 --> 00:52:07,000
Surely you're starting
to move over it now.
954
00:52:08,045 --> 00:52:10,825
You know, we, we are
uneducated around grief.
955
00:52:11,505 --> 00:52:12,735
Grief is a gift.
956
00:52:13,155 --> 00:52:19,635
Grief is an extraordinary,
beautiful, awful gift.
957
00:52:20,625 --> 00:52:21,745
And it hurts like hell.
958
00:52:22,735 --> 00:52:24,195
And it's messy, often.
959
00:52:24,805 --> 00:52:26,665
And sometimes we can't even function.
960
00:52:27,564 --> 00:52:31,595
And that's normal, and
organic, and healthy.
961
00:52:32,565 --> 00:52:37,489
And the more we can embrace our
grief, the more we can heal.
962
00:52:38,170 --> 00:52:43,310
powerful and healing
our bereavement can be.
963
00:52:44,300 --> 00:52:49,729
And when it's been a primary relationship,
you know, the books say, you know, someone
964
00:52:49,730 --> 00:52:55,040
is newly bereaved for two years, but I
tell you what, I've seen three, four, five
965
00:52:56,039 --> 00:52:58,330
when it's a prime big, a big relationship.
966
00:52:58,859 --> 00:53:01,929
So I think grieving, I think
that's one of the difficult things.
967
00:53:01,929 --> 00:53:06,409
I think another difficult thing
is that people, the adjustment.
968
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:12,790
to life that was not of their choosing.
969
00:53:13,790 --> 00:53:19,010
So we can often fight change
and this thing has happened and
970
00:53:19,010 --> 00:53:21,050
our person's been taken from us.
971
00:53:21,050 --> 00:53:24,910
It's like the word bereavement
is like to rob, right?
972
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:26,130
It comes from to rob.
973
00:53:26,419 --> 00:53:28,979
So it's like we've been
violated in some way.
974
00:53:29,820 --> 00:53:30,110
both: And
975
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:36,900
Helen: so, and I think, yeah, that
so as, as in our bereavement and
976
00:53:36,900 --> 00:53:40,390
our grief, We often go inward.
977
00:53:41,390 --> 00:53:45,490
Mourning, see grieving is
like the internalization of
978
00:53:45,490 --> 00:53:47,240
the feeling that we have.
979
00:53:47,530 --> 00:53:50,320
Mourning is when we externalize that.
980
00:53:50,970 --> 00:53:54,879
So when we go to a funeral,
when we talk about our person.
981
00:53:55,420 --> 00:54:00,130
When we share about them, when we grieve,
when, you know, like that, there's visit
982
00:54:00,130 --> 00:54:05,110
for things, that's externalizing the
grief, giving it voice, giving it room
983
00:54:05,259 --> 00:54:12,050
to be, and, and I think that to me is
one of the most powerful things to do.
984
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:16,850
We, we are often frightened
of people's grief.
985
00:54:17,850 --> 00:54:21,270
We often feel uncomfortable
in the face of someone we care
986
00:54:21,270 --> 00:54:22,580
about who's deeply grieving.
987
00:54:23,100 --> 00:54:24,700
We want it to go away.
988
00:54:25,730 --> 00:54:32,260
We want to soothe them and pack them
rather than say no, howl at the moon,
989
00:54:32,890 --> 00:54:34,800
get it out, get it out of your body.
990
00:54:34,869 --> 00:54:36,039
I will listen to you.
991
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:40,779
And you know, what I tend to do
with someone is to say, tell me
992
00:54:40,820 --> 00:54:42,029
the time they pissed you off.
993
00:54:42,999 --> 00:54:44,790
Tell me your favorite holiday yet.
994
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:46,080
Tell me what you love.
995
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:47,470
Don't tell me what you miss the most.
996
00:54:48,460 --> 00:54:49,360
Do you get what I'm saying?
997
00:54:49,900 --> 00:54:51,680
Talk to them about their person.
998
00:54:51,700 --> 00:54:54,190
They haven't, you know, people say,
Oh, I don't want to bring it up.
999
00:54:54,210 --> 00:54:54,920
I don't want to remind them.
1000
00:54:54,980 --> 00:54:55,840
They haven't forgotten.
1001
00:54:55,900 --> 00:54:56,509
They're dead.
1002
00:54:56,590 --> 00:54:57,289
Let me tell you.
1003
00:54:57,290 --> 00:54:58,589
Right?
1004
00:54:58,770 --> 00:55:03,330
And so by giving people the room, you
know, to talk about their person, I
1005
00:55:03,330 --> 00:55:06,910
wish we could have, that's another thing
we should get at birth, grief classes.
1006
00:55:07,079 --> 00:55:07,239
You know?
1007
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,020
Catherine: Yeah, it should
be taught at school.
1008
00:55:10,100 --> 00:55:10,680
Helen: Right?
1009
00:55:11,230 --> 00:55:16,660
How to be with a grieving person,
and what a grieving person needs.
1010
00:55:16,710 --> 00:55:19,770
And, you know, we so often say, let
me know if there's anything negative.
1011
00:55:20,300 --> 00:55:25,100
That person can hardly even think,
let alone know what they need or want,
1012
00:55:25,100 --> 00:55:30,355
you And the last thing they could do
sometimes is ask for something, you
1013
00:55:30,355 --> 00:55:32,885
know, so it's So given that, Helen,
1014
00:55:33,835 --> 00:55:37,305
Catherine: if you're on, if you are
someone who is, you know, because
1015
00:55:37,305 --> 00:55:41,394
there's always that awkwardness
at funerals and things like that,
1016
00:55:41,395 --> 00:55:42,945
that people don't know what to say.
1017
00:55:43,875 --> 00:55:48,455
In your experience, what would you,
what would you recommend people say or
1018
00:55:48,585 --> 00:55:51,195
don't say in those sort of scenarios?
1019
00:55:51,235 --> 00:55:56,970
Helen: Well, I think You know, we
so commonly say, I'm so sorry, and
1020
00:55:57,210 --> 00:55:59,880
I've heard people say, God, I wish
people would stop bloody saying
1021
00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:02,220
that they haven't done anything.
1022
00:56:02,900 --> 00:56:04,020
The person died.
1023
00:56:05,020 --> 00:56:10,870
So I think it's about, you know,
sometimes we trot out these things,
1024
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:16,550
but sometimes to say to someone, you
know, I can only imagine what this
1025
00:56:16,550 --> 00:56:21,260
is like for you, you know, tell me
what are you finding the hardest?
1026
00:56:22,350 --> 00:56:26,280
Like, talk to them like you care, right?
1027
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:27,880
Talk to them.
1028
00:56:28,270 --> 00:56:32,510
You know, also too, like, you know, I'm,
I'm going to be going shopping on Monday.
1029
00:56:32,980 --> 00:56:35,500
How about I drop by and I'll grab a list?
1030
00:56:37,229 --> 00:56:37,809
Do you get what I'm saying?
1031
00:56:37,820 --> 00:56:41,669
Like doing something active, you
know, saying, you know, and it's
1032
00:56:41,669 --> 00:56:43,260
really okay to say, you know what?
1033
00:56:43,630 --> 00:56:45,010
And I've done this
myself a number of times.
1034
00:56:45,060 --> 00:56:47,789
I don't even know what
to say to you right now.
1035
00:56:48,370 --> 00:56:54,760
But please just know I'm, I'm, my heart's
with you, you know, and, and, and it's
1036
00:56:54,760 --> 00:57:00,840
better to say that, that's more authentic
and truthful and it's okay not to know.
1037
00:57:01,839 --> 00:57:04,860
We try and cover up our ineffectiveness.
1038
00:57:04,860 --> 00:57:09,299
It's okay to say, I feel such, I just,
I feel I'm flailing at the moment.
1039
00:57:09,530 --> 00:57:11,300
I don't even know how to help you.
1040
00:57:11,300 --> 00:57:17,270
I want to, but please just know I'm
here and I care, you know, like give
1041
00:57:17,270 --> 00:57:20,595
them the gift of your Of your honesty.
1042
00:57:21,165 --> 00:57:22,455
Catherine: And vulnerability, I suppose.
1043
00:57:22,485 --> 00:57:22,665
And
1044
00:57:22,665 --> 00:57:25,985
Helen: vulnerability, because it opens the
door for them to be vulnerable, Catherine.
1045
00:57:26,655 --> 00:57:27,105
Catherine: Mm.
1046
00:57:27,285 --> 00:57:27,755
Helen: You know?
1047
00:57:28,675 --> 00:57:32,665
And I remember Sunday saying
to a young person, I can only
1048
00:57:32,665 --> 00:57:34,145
imagine this is pretty shit.
1049
00:57:34,705 --> 00:57:36,234
And he goes, oh, it's so shit.
1050
00:57:36,235 --> 00:57:37,874
I said, what's the shittiest?
1051
00:57:38,355 --> 00:57:39,324
And letting him talk.
1052
00:57:39,885 --> 00:57:40,355
Yeah.
1053
00:57:41,185 --> 00:57:41,685
And then shut up.
1054
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:44,790
Don't try fix it.
1055
00:57:45,410 --> 00:57:49,560
The thing is, and this is that thing
about giving up attachment to outcome,
1056
00:57:50,470 --> 00:57:54,390
you know, when we try and fix things,
we're implying something is broken.
1057
00:57:55,390 --> 00:57:57,810
Grieving is normal, organic, healthy.
1058
00:57:58,810 --> 00:57:59,770
No one's broken.
1059
00:58:00,429 --> 00:58:05,680
Even when a person is unable to
breathe and they're screaming their
1060
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:09,240
grief, wailing, they're not broken.
1061
00:58:09,980 --> 00:58:15,030
They're expressing their grief
in their way, just giving
1062
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:16,700
them the space to do that.
1063
00:58:17,690 --> 00:58:23,459
That's sometimes the most healing thing
there is to do is to get that off pain,
1064
00:58:23,469 --> 00:58:29,080
that, that, that ball of energy out
of your body and out of your mouth.
1065
00:58:30,005 --> 00:58:34,485
It's a gift to give someone, to
be able to hold space for them
1066
00:58:34,485 --> 00:58:35,655
and let them be where they are.
1067
00:58:35,685 --> 00:58:38,325
Sometimes people are enraged.
1068
00:58:39,324 --> 00:58:42,544
I remember a woman said to me
once, her husband died suddenly,
1069
00:58:42,574 --> 00:58:46,005
unexpectedly, while away on a holiday.
1070
00:58:47,004 --> 00:58:49,364
She said, I'm so angry with him.
1071
00:58:49,365 --> 00:58:51,274
She said, if he wasn't
dead, I'd bloody kill him.
1072
00:58:52,365 --> 00:58:52,655
both: So what
1073
00:58:52,655 --> 00:58:53,755
Helen: are you angriest about?
1074
00:58:54,775 --> 00:58:59,345
Well, he left me with all this
mess and meh I'd just let it go.
1075
00:58:59,965 --> 00:59:00,725
Do you get what I'm saying?
1076
00:59:00,894 --> 00:59:02,855
Rather than, oh, there there, do you know?
1077
00:59:03,695 --> 00:59:05,835
Like, let people have their responses.
1078
00:59:05,875 --> 00:59:06,725
It's healthy.
1079
00:59:06,744 --> 00:59:08,064
It's organic, you know?
1080
00:59:08,855 --> 00:59:09,225
Yeah.
1081
00:59:10,085 --> 00:59:12,815
I think another thing too, you
said about what not to say.
1082
00:59:13,795 --> 00:59:14,935
Oh, gosh.
1083
00:59:14,965 --> 00:59:18,605
One of the things that is my,
one of my pet struggles is when
1084
00:59:18,605 --> 00:59:21,225
it's around the death of a child.
1085
00:59:21,225 --> 00:59:21,394
Oh, gosh.
1086
00:59:22,355 --> 00:59:26,515
And people say very silly things
sometimes, like, Oh, don't
1087
00:59:26,515 --> 00:59:27,925
worry, you'll have another one.
1088
00:59:28,585 --> 00:59:29,955
Person had a twin die.
1089
00:59:30,145 --> 00:59:31,094
Well, at least you've got
1090
00:59:31,094 --> 00:59:31,394
both: one.
1091
00:59:32,375 --> 00:59:35,475
Helen: You know, like, please,
people, come on, you know.
1092
00:59:35,564 --> 00:59:39,795
Better off saying nothing
than those sort of platitudes.
1093
00:59:40,045 --> 00:59:42,404
Or when someone aged has died.
1094
00:59:42,675 --> 00:59:44,085
Well, they had a good innings.
1095
00:59:44,875 --> 00:59:46,365
Like, they deserve to die now.
1096
00:59:46,875 --> 00:59:47,715
You know, come on.
1097
00:59:48,300 --> 00:59:52,370
You know, so it's just about
language is really critical.
1098
00:59:52,590 --> 00:59:53,980
Language is really critical.
1099
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:54,980
Yeah.
1100
00:59:55,020 --> 00:59:59,150
Catherine: We, we know of one story
where someone describes someone
1101
00:59:59,150 --> 01:00:04,059
as, oh, well, we lost, you know,
the father and the poor woman.
1102
01:00:05,290 --> 01:00:08,420
The poor woman suffered from
dementia and said, well, where is he?
1103
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:09,210
Right.
1104
01:00:09,260 --> 01:00:13,979
And that just sets up for more
explanation and confusion and
1105
01:00:14,450 --> 01:00:15,799
Helen: Yeah, absolutely.
1106
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:19,339
And another thing is telling the
children they've gone to sleep, telling
1107
01:00:19,339 --> 01:00:21,070
children their grandpa's gone to sleep.
1108
01:00:21,775 --> 01:00:22,525
He's having a long sleep.
1109
01:00:22,635 --> 01:00:24,915
No, the kids, kids become
frightened of going to sleep.
1110
01:00:25,925 --> 01:00:27,005
Yeah, of course.
1111
01:00:27,325 --> 01:00:28,365
Tell them the truth.
1112
01:00:28,375 --> 01:00:32,324
Children, children, please
tell children the truth.
1113
01:00:32,645 --> 01:00:36,235
The reason there's so many messed up
adults around death and dying is because
1114
01:00:36,235 --> 01:00:40,315
they were messed up as children by adults
thinking they needed to protect them.
1115
01:00:41,015 --> 01:00:41,664
Think about it.
1116
01:00:41,675 --> 01:00:44,245
Children are organically curious.
1117
01:00:44,815 --> 01:00:45,225
both: Yeah.
1118
01:00:45,345 --> 01:00:46,105
Helen: I see them.
1119
01:00:46,375 --> 01:00:48,395
They'll be around a deceased person.
1120
01:00:48,395 --> 01:00:49,585
They're coming to visit that person.
1121
01:00:49,585 --> 01:00:52,295
They're doing vigil and they'll be
touching and going, why is he cold?
1122
01:00:53,285 --> 01:00:53,585
Catherine: Yeah,
1123
01:00:53,745 --> 01:00:54,145
Helen: right.
1124
01:00:54,245 --> 01:00:55,915
Catherine: And children
see everything too.
1125
01:00:56,165 --> 01:00:56,655
They do.
1126
01:00:57,085 --> 01:00:57,465
And they
1127
01:00:57,465 --> 01:00:59,855
Helen: know when we're
being weird, you know.
1128
01:00:59,855 --> 01:01:01,214
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1129
01:01:01,214 --> 01:01:03,335
They, they are very good detectors.
1130
01:01:03,594 --> 01:01:05,205
They are very good detectors.
1131
01:01:05,205 --> 01:01:09,124
And, you know, and I, I want to just
say this, you know, that in my opinion,
1132
01:01:09,164 --> 01:01:14,524
there is no age too young for a child
to be in the presence of a sick person.
1133
01:01:15,010 --> 01:01:20,390
A dying person, a dead person, or
at a funeral, no age too young.
1134
01:01:20,450 --> 01:01:22,660
It is a normal part of life.
1135
01:01:22,660 --> 01:01:25,630
You know, in the West, I often talk
about, Catherine, in the West we
1136
01:01:25,630 --> 01:01:27,400
live like it's life versus death.
1137
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:29,580
But here's the truth of that.
1138
01:01:30,139 --> 01:01:32,270
Death isn't the opposite of life.
1139
01:01:33,260 --> 01:01:34,589
Death is the opposite of birth.
1140
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,570
And birth and death are parts of a life.
1141
01:01:39,570 --> 01:01:41,170
You can't be born and not die.
1142
01:01:41,380 --> 01:01:42,890
It just, the sum doesn't add up.
1143
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:44,350
both: That's true.
1144
01:01:44,350 --> 01:01:47,690
Helen: So yeah, so it's really
about, we talk at Preparing the
1145
01:01:47,690 --> 01:01:49,040
Way about the circle of life.
1146
01:01:49,060 --> 01:01:50,650
We're focusing on life here.
1147
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:54,840
And on that 10 stages,
death is about number six.
1148
01:01:55,545 --> 01:01:57,225
It's not the end of anything.
1149
01:01:57,835 --> 01:02:01,545
This whole journey is only
halfway through for most of the
1150
01:02:01,545 --> 01:02:02,845
people still in the journey.
1151
01:02:03,855 --> 01:02:06,505
And who knows, the deceased
person probably on another
1152
01:02:06,505 --> 01:02:07,865
journey too in some other realm.
1153
01:02:08,175 --> 01:02:08,705
Who knows?
1154
01:02:08,855 --> 01:02:09,505
Not going to go there.
1155
01:02:09,534 --> 01:02:10,845
But do you know what I'm saying?
1156
01:02:10,895 --> 01:02:14,105
Like it's, there's so much more to this.
1157
01:02:14,494 --> 01:02:18,195
And if we're willing to allow the
vulnerability and the experience,
1158
01:02:18,195 --> 01:02:21,745
it's a beautiful thing to be a
part of, even when it's messy.
1159
01:02:22,535 --> 01:02:23,865
Because it's real.
1160
01:02:24,275 --> 01:02:26,365
There's nothing more
authentic and truthful.
1161
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:27,630
Catherine: Yeah.
1162
01:02:28,570 --> 01:02:31,420
I can't thank you enough for
being with us today, Helen.
1163
01:02:31,430 --> 01:02:34,320
Is there anything else
that you'd like to share?
1164
01:02:35,310 --> 01:02:38,350
Helen: Oh, have the conversations.
1165
01:02:38,489 --> 01:02:39,520
Talk to your people.
1166
01:02:40,510 --> 01:02:42,970
Talk about what you want,
what your preferences are.
1167
01:02:42,970 --> 01:02:45,760
We don't always get everything we want.
1168
01:02:45,890 --> 01:02:52,030
You know, one of the things I, we, again,
back to language that I struggle with is
1169
01:02:52,030 --> 01:02:54,010
this term trying to have a good death.
1170
01:02:54,050 --> 01:02:56,800
We're going to have a good death
because that implies there's bad death.
1171
01:02:57,800 --> 01:02:59,269
Consider there's just death.
1172
01:03:00,220 --> 01:03:02,830
And what are your
preferences for your death?
1173
01:03:03,330 --> 01:03:06,540
And what can you put in
place now to have that done?
1174
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:08,610
Because it's a gift
you'll give your family.
1175
01:03:09,330 --> 01:03:12,920
They'll never be able to say thank you
for it, but it is a gift you'll give them.
1176
01:03:13,460 --> 01:03:13,800
Yeah.
1177
01:03:14,290 --> 01:03:15,010
Thank you, Catherine.
1178
01:03:15,010 --> 01:03:16,550
It's been amazing to talk to you.
1179
01:03:16,905 --> 01:03:17,305
Loved it.
1180
01:03:17,785 --> 01:03:21,195
Catherine: That's, that's a really
beautiful thought to, to end on.
1181
01:03:21,195 --> 01:03:22,215
Thank you so much, Helen.
1182
01:03:22,405 --> 01:03:22,495
You're welcome.
1183
01:03:22,565 --> 01:03:23,615
I really appreciate it.
1184
01:03:24,045 --> 01:03:24,605
Thank you.
1185
01:03:27,055 --> 01:03:30,465
We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,
1186
01:03:30,784 --> 01:03:32,364
brought to you by Critical Info.
1187
01:03:33,294 --> 01:03:37,565
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new, or were touched by a story you
1188
01:03:37,565 --> 01:03:39,520
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1189
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:43,270
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1190
01:03:43,270 --> 01:03:45,010
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1191
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:49,330
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1192
01:03:49,330 --> 01:03:51,070
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1193
01:03:51,340 --> 01:03:52,690
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1194
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:53,830
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1195
01:03:53,830 --> 01:03:57,760
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1196
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:03,960
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Resources
- Helen prefers not to ever use the term ‘death doula’. She identifies as an end of life doula. If you would like to understand why – have a look at this:
![Post Image](https://criticalinfo.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/Episode-with-guest.png)
![Post Image](https://criticalinfo.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Episode-with-guest-1-1.png)