How My Sister’s Death at Four Shaped My Life

4th September 2025

Contents: Listen now About this episode Show notes

Guest bio
Summary
Transcript
Resources

Listen now

About this episode

What happens when death touches your family before you even understand what it means?

In this episode of Don’t Be Caught Dead, I sit down with funeral celebrant Leonie Fletcher Adams, whose life was profoundly shaped when her sister died at just four years old. That childhood loss not only shaped her family but also planted the seed for a lifelong journey of spirituality, honesty, and connection.

Leonie shares her path from nursing and acting to becoming a funeral celebrant, weaving in her belief in spiritual guides, the importance of rituals, and why every funeral deserves to be an honest reflection of the person who has died. We talk about how grief is often unacknowledged in siblings, why including children in funerals matters, and how simple touches — like jellybeans in the cupboard or roses from the garden — can make ceremonies deeply personal.

This isn’t just about organising funerals. It’s about truth, spirituality, and finding ways to honour life while facing the reality of death. Leonie’s insights are raw, deeply human, and grounded in decades of experience with families at their most vulnerable.

Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.

Take care,
Catherine

Show notes

Guest Bio

Leonie Fletcher Adams

Funeral Celebrant and Loss and Grief Counsellor

I bring to my work as a funeral celebrant and loss and grief counsellor, both formal qualifications and a lifetime of experience. My skills and experience enable me to conduct funeral ceremonies which are authentic, beautiful and dignified. They bring meaning to the experience of loss, and with input from family and friends, have true depth of feeling. Following ceremonies that I have conducted, a re-occurring theme in the comments I receive is that they are amazed at how I seemed to ‘have an understanding’ of the deceased person…it was as if I knew them. Many people have said to me, “that was the best funeral I have ever been to”

Summary

In this episode, we cover:

How losing her sister as a child shaped Leonie’s family and her life’s purpose
The role of spirituality and spiritual guides in navigating grief and creating funerals
Why honesty is central to meaningful end-of-life rituals
How rituals, music, and personal touches create space for healing
The challenges of grief after the funeral is over — and why anniversaries matter
The importance of preparing funeral wishes as an act of love for those left behind

Transcript

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,890 I'm very clear, but sometimes when I have to speak off the cuff, 2 00:00:04,980 --> 00:00:07,620 it, the lines won't come out. 3 00:00:08,340 --> 00:00:10,410 So it's, that's another thing. 4 00:00:11,155 --> 00:00:11,445 Yeah. 5 00:00:11,845 --> 00:00:11,855 Yeah. 6 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:17,940 The, um, I, many times I, um, I refer to it myself as the, the perimenopause. 7 00:00:17,970 --> 00:00:18,060 Yeah. 8 00:00:18,060 --> 00:00:19,560 You know, mind fog Yes. 9 00:00:19,560 --> 0 ... Read More

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I'm very clear, but sometimes

when I have to speak off the cuff,

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it, the lines won't come out.

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So it's, that's another thing.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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The, um, I, many times I, um, I refer

to it myself as the, the perimenopause.

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Yeah.

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You know, mind fog Yes.

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That you get.

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Um, and so I refer to it all the time.

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All right.

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So, so you're in good company.

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Oh, good.

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Don't worry.

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Okay.

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Catherine.

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No.

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Okay.

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No, very good company.

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Um, so I've just pressed record,

so that seems to be doing its

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thing, which is fantastic.

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Um, all the levels seem to

be good, so there we go.

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I'm happy with that.

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Yeah, that's good.

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Little less of that is good.

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Little volume.

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No, that sounds pretty good.

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I'm pretty happy with, with all of that.

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Uh,

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yeah.

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Yep.

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No, that's, do you just

want to talk Leone?

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Yes.

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Hi, Catherine.

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Super to be here with you.

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Yeah, I think that's

coming through well.

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Okay.

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Brilliant.

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Okay, let's get started, shall we?

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Today I'm speaking with Leona,

if I can get started Today I'm

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speaking with Leonie Fletcher Adams.

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Leonie is deeply passionate and highly

experienced funeral celebrant whose

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spiritual values of non-judgment,

kindness, integrity, and connection,

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shape every aspect of her work.

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With more than 30 years experience,

creating ceremonies of meaning and memory.

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Leonie draws on a unique blend of

formal training, lived experience,

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and soulful insight to support

individuals and families through one

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of life's most vulnerable moments.

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Leone's diverse qualifications include

spiritual counseling, accredited

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mediumship, grief and loss training,

metaphysical and liturgical studies.

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I'm so glad I said that right?

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I hope I did.

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It's a lot to trip over.

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It is.

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It is.

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And it also includes palliative nursing,

theatrical training, and professional

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experiences as a funeral director.

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Her background enables her to craft

funeral ceremonies that authentic,

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dignified, heartfelt, and genuinely

reflective of the person being

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honored, whether that be secular,

spiritual, or something in between.

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Described by many as delivering

the best funeral I've ever been to.

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That's pretty good.

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Leonie offers a calm, grounding

presence and a rare ability to

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hold space for people's grief while

celebrating the sacredness of life.

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She is based in Algan in Victoria

and leads spiritual funerals, an

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offering of conscious, inclusive, and

personally tailored end of life rituals.

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Thank you so much for being with me.

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Leonie.

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My pleasure

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to be here,

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Catherine.

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Thank you.

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And we are doing something

a bit different today.

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We are actually in person in my office.

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You are not on the screen.

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Yeah.

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And that's a really lovely thing,

especially just given the fact that you've

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traveled from Regan to be here today.

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Mm-hmm.

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So thank you so much for being with us.

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Yeah,

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thank

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you.

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So tell me, how did you get started

in, in this funeral industry?

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Leone.

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Okay.

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Well, I have to go back to

when I was three years old.

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Because my 4-year-old sister died

and I lost my best friend and my

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parents lost their eldest C child.

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And it still brings up

the tears as she can hear.

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Yeah.

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So that loss and grief shaped our family.

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And in that, I feel I knew that

there was something beyond this earth

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that something else was going on.

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And as a child I would've called that

God, I called it the spiritual worlds.

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Now and on my life journey, I've

sought out teachers to help me

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understand the spiritual world.

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Um, and I see my training as.

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A nurse and as an actress and as

a funeral director, they all came

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together to create my celebrancy.

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I never did formal

training as a celebrant.

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I was learned on the job, so to speak, and

when I began over 30 years ago to conduct

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ceremonies, I realized pretty quickly

that people needed hope and they often

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lost hope when somebody they loved died.

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And at that point, I kept my

spiritual beliefs to myself.

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But there came a point in my

journey where I realized that.

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The spiritual life is a way of

life, a way of living your life.

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And it was how I lived my life.

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So why would I want to hide who I

am and what I do and what I believe?

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Um, and yeah.

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And, and

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so just on that, there's a, there's a

few things that I'd, I'd like to, to

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talk about that you've raised there.

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Yeah.

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So firstly that, that change

of recognition for you between

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believing in a God Yes.

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To now that transition to spirituality.

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Yes.

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Tell me what, what religion were you,

were you raised in a particular religion?

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No, not at all.

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Um, as a child, uh, the local, we

moved to an area that was a new

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area for the war, war service homes.

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This was in Western Sydney?

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Yeah.

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And there was a local church.

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The Church of Christ.

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It was Oh, yeah, yeah.

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I'm familiar

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with Church of Christ.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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My husband was,

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was, uh,

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was raised in that, yeah.

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Oh, right.

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Okay.

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So, um, the minister happened to

knock on the door, uh, to invite

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any children along to Sunday school,

and my grandmother answered the door

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and my grandmother was my godmother.

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And she said, right, you kids

are going off to Sunday school.

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My father hated the idea, but

nevertheless, we went, we went off and

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it was like, um, a, a safe place for me.

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And I loved the singing and I loved the

stories and yeah, I, I, I knew great.

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Mm. Lots of the Bible off by

heart and things like that.

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So I felt like I'd come to my

spiritual home, even though I wouldn't

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have called it that at that time.

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Yeah.

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And then tell me about that,

that transition for you, how

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your faith developed over that

time and over your experience.

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Yeah.

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Um,

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I suppose because I'd always felt mm,

that there's, you know, Shakespeare

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wrote, there's more things in

heaven and earth, Horatio than

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in your yours are my philosophy.

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If you understand and have an appreciation

of that, then you know there's something

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greater and bigger going on than yourself.

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So from, uh, church, and I think when

I, in my nursing years in looking

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after people, I, I saw how, um.

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Uh, a complicated life was really

for people, how dramatic it was.

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You know, how sad it was.

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Uh, and so my eyes were

opening all the time.

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Uh, I, you know, went overseas

and saw where, you know, sacred

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sites or, uh, learned about

spiritual things through books.

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I loved Scott Peck books.

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Uh, you know, the Roadless Traveled.

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That was a real eyeopener.

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Then I found, um, in Victoria,

uh, spiritual teacher who

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combined and Western religions.

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It was a formal church, but he

taught reincarnation and karma.

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And then the next thing

was I put all that away.

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Moved to Tazzie, hid what for a while.

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Looked at course in

miracles, read all that.

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And then from there went, uh, came back

to um, uh, Melbourne and heard about a

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couple of people that were doing readings

at a little cheese and wine evening.

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And I went along to that and there was

this gentleman there called Ian Rogers

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and he gave me a mini reading and I

nearly fell off the floor with the

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accuracy with, uh, I was like blown away

so this person can tell me about myself.

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Things I didn't have never told anybody.

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So, yes.

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So there it, is it possible to share

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any of

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those little things?

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Uh, well, that was a while ago now.

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But yes, he, he told me about my marriage

at the time, what I was going through

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in my marriage, um, what I, of the

hurts that had happened in my life.

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Uh, told me about, uh, my spirit guides,

who was looking after me and why.

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Yeah.

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So it was, even though it was only 15

minutes long at that time, I, I went,

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here's my next teacher.

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Yeah.

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I think the, the student

finds the teacher.

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So I was always, as I

say that way, inclined.

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Yeah.

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That, um, yeah, I just gravitated to,

uh, there's more to life than what

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we see, you know, this more going on

than what we see and I, and to know

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that we're this tiny dot, and yet.

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We can be so creative.

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Look at what you do.

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You know, we've all got amazing

talents and, no, that's good.

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That's all good.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Oh, well, yeah,

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that's,

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that's, um, that's fan.

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That's very interesting.

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Um, I, sorry.

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What we'll do is I'll

pick it up from Yeah.

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So that's fine.

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Um, and I'll move this away so

you don't have to worry about it.

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Don't get that.

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Yes.

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There you go.

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Yeah.

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But that's all good.

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Um, so just something that, that,

that you mentioned there mm-hmm.

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That you ran away to Tasmania.

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Yes.

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Was, was there any reason, uh,

anything that happened that

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drove that, that running away?

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That's,

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um, I think we all at times in

our life feel like we just gotta

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get away and regroup and heal

ourselves, or, uh, we need change.

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What happened?

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The, my spiritual teacher

at that time died.

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Uh, things went a bit awry in,

you know, within people that had

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loved each other and suddenly all

our differences were coming up.

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Um, yeah.

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And I just felt right.

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We just need to sort this out in my mind.

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What has happened here?

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So, um, my husband and

I went off to Tazzie.

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We knew no one, um, we took

our dogs, we took everything.

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Why Tassie?

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There was a friend of my husband's

at the time who loved fishing.

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And he was down in Tasie, he said, oh.

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00:12:07,365 --> 00:12:09,975

And he rang up and he said, oh,

you should come down to Tasie.

239

00:12:09,975 --> 00:12:11,295

The fishing's great down here.

240

00:12:11,415 --> 00:12:12,375

Not the We fished.

241

00:12:12,750 --> 00:12:12,910

Yeah.

242

00:12:13,490 --> 00:12:16,755

But yeah, let's come, come on down.

243

00:12:16,755 --> 00:12:19,215

So, you know, pristine and beautiful.

244

00:12:19,215 --> 00:12:20,505

And it was like a phone call.

245

00:12:20,535 --> 00:12:21,855

Oh, well let's go to Tassie.

246

00:12:21,855 --> 00:12:24,135

It was just instantaneous like that.

247

00:12:24,735 --> 00:12:26,535

And tell me which part of Tasmania?

248

00:12:26,535 --> 00:12:28,245

In Hobart we ride In Hobart.

249

00:12:28,250 --> 00:12:28,510

Yeah.

250

00:12:28,515 --> 00:12:28,725

Yeah.

251

00:12:28,725 --> 00:12:29,235

Wow.

252

00:12:29,355 --> 00:12:34,395

Just on Bel Rie beach where

the cricket oval is just Yeah.

253

00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:34,630

Yeah.

254

00:12:34,845 --> 00:12:34,965

Wow.

255

00:12:34,965 --> 00:12:37,575

On a cliff overlooking the water.

256

00:12:37,845 --> 00:12:41,925

And, uh, yeah, it was, it was magic.

257

00:12:41,925 --> 00:12:48,045

I still miss the fresh fish off the

wharf down there and the, the fresh air.

258

00:12:48,165 --> 00:12:53,295

It's, as soon as I came back to Melbourne,

I could really tell the difference was.

259

00:12:53,565 --> 00:12:53,925

Yeah.

260

00:12:55,005 --> 00:12:56,895

And so you moved back to Melbourne.

261

00:12:56,985 --> 00:12:57,045

Yeah.

262

00:12:57,050 --> 00:12:59,775

And you, you had this experience.

263

00:12:59,775 --> 00:12:59,865

Mm-hmm.

264

00:13:00,555 --> 00:13:01,365

Tell me.

265

00:13:02,415 --> 00:13:07,215

What happened, like after that 15

minutes that, that you were quite blown

266

00:13:07,215 --> 00:13:09,165

away with what he was saying to you?

267

00:13:09,165 --> 00:13:09,255

Yes.

268

00:13:09,825 --> 00:13:13,005

How, what was that impact for

you moving forward in your life?

269

00:13:14,055 --> 00:13:15,975

Uh, the marriage

270

00:13:15,975 --> 00:13:27,645

ended, um, I realized that, well,

Ian helped me realize that I had

271

00:13:27,645 --> 00:13:33,435

a lot of spiritual knowledge in my

mind, but I hadn't really gotten to

272

00:13:33,435 --> 00:13:35,865

the depths of myself as a person.

273

00:13:37,605 --> 00:13:44,505

So I, I went on a conference,

actually, we took off to Vietnam.

274

00:13:44,595 --> 00:13:48,855

There was a few of us, and we

learned about our spiritual guides,

275

00:13:48,855 --> 00:13:56,715

about our purpose in life and yeah,

connection to the spiritual world.

276

00:13:56,925 --> 00:13:59,505

So it was starting to come out of my head.

277

00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:06,990

Where I had knowledge and to come

into my being, to all the talents

278

00:14:06,990 --> 00:14:14,910

or, um, creativity that I had

now seemed to be more purposeful.

279

00:14:14,910 --> 00:14:19,380

I, I don't think I'm explaining

it very well, but it was like, um,

280

00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:26,160

you know, you can have a, maybe

if I said about my nursing, if, if

281

00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,850

I'd done a university degree but

had never changed a bed or a bed

282

00:14:29,850 --> 00:14:32,700

pan, what sort of nurse would I be?

283

00:14:33,150 --> 00:14:40,380

So I had all this knowledge here, but how

can I be a better person on this planet?

284

00:14:40,380 --> 00:14:45,930

How can I put everything that's

in Leonie into a good practice?

285

00:14:46,020 --> 00:14:52,380

And I had, um, worked in funerals

at the time and so I started to,

286

00:14:53,010 --> 00:14:56,280

uh, see that what I believed.

287

00:14:57,015 --> 00:15:05,835

Uh, what I could share with people with

my energy and my, um, uh, feeling that

288

00:15:05,835 --> 00:15:12,045

we're all equal and that we're all messed

up and that we're all a mixture of so

289

00:15:12,045 --> 00:15:18,765

much and accept people and not judge

them, but just to be there for them.

290

00:15:18,915 --> 00:15:21,135

I, I, I somehow could.

291

00:15:22,665 --> 00:15:28,065

Yeah, and from, from that moment in

childhood, that little 3-year-old

292

00:15:28,065 --> 00:15:33,015

girl that experienced that major

thing in life, then it somehow

293

00:15:33,015 --> 00:15:39,645

felt like that was the stepping off

point for what I meant to do and be.

294

00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:41,370

Does that make sense?

295

00:15:41,630 --> 00:15:42,315

It, it does.

296

00:15:42,315 --> 00:15:43,395

And it sounds like you were.

297

00:15:44,205 --> 00:15:48,795

It's almost like, um, embodying from,

from being an intellectual That's right.

298

00:15:48,795 --> 00:15:52,995

To actually more of like an embodiment

of what you feel like you represent.

299

00:15:52,995 --> 00:15:55,120

Would that be a way to That

would be a way to put it, yeah.

300

00:15:55,125 --> 00:15:55,335

Yeah.

301

00:15:55,335 --> 00:15:55,695

Right.

302

00:15:55,695 --> 00:15:55,814

Yeah.

303

00:15:56,085 --> 00:15:59,655

And tell me, you talk about

the spiritual guides.

304

00:15:59,715 --> 00:15:59,895

Yes.

305

00:15:59,925 --> 00:16:03,885

How talk, could you talk me through

what a spiritual guide is, how you

306

00:16:03,885 --> 00:16:05,685

can connect with spiritual guides?

307

00:16:05,685 --> 00:16:06,705

Do we all have them?

308

00:16:07,005 --> 00:16:09,705

I, I, this is something I'm,

I'm absolutely fascinated with.

309

00:16:09,705 --> 00:16:09,735

Oh.

310

00:16:09,735 --> 00:16:13,725

So if you can, you can talk through that

to me to give me a better understanding

311

00:16:13,725 --> 00:16:14,955

and the listeners a better understanding.

312

00:16:14,955 --> 00:16:15,465

That'd be great.

313

00:16:15,465 --> 00:16:15,615

Okay.

314

00:16:15,915 --> 00:16:27,705

Um, look, we all come in to this planet

with guides and they're there, they're

315

00:16:27,705 --> 00:16:31,965

allocated to us when we're, even

before we're in the womb, you know?

316

00:16:33,194 --> 00:16:38,385

Um, and there's always a guide

that's there from birth till we die.

317

00:16:38,445 --> 00:16:40,095

Yeah, that's our guardian.

318

00:16:40,095 --> 00:16:43,785

I guess we've got some people

would call it the guardian angel.

319

00:16:43,785 --> 00:16:48,375

I wouldn't call it angels,

but they're, they're there to

320

00:16:48,465 --> 00:16:51,135

be an overseer for our life.

321

00:16:52,245 --> 00:16:54,885

Then we have guides to, to help us.

322

00:16:54,915 --> 00:16:56,475

So we've always got a guide.

323

00:16:56,475 --> 00:17:02,895

You know, you might say, oh,

I know that's wrong, you know,

324

00:17:02,955 --> 00:17:05,595

and so that a gut feeling.

325

00:17:05,595 --> 00:17:05,625

A gut feeling.

326

00:17:05,775 --> 00:17:06,915

So there's your guide.

327

00:17:07,995 --> 00:17:09,705

Yelling in your ears sometimes.

328

00:17:09,705 --> 00:17:13,665

Sometimes, you know, they're just,

they're going, oh gosh, Leone's

329

00:17:13,665 --> 00:17:15,735

making that may same mistake again.

330

00:17:15,735 --> 00:17:17,805

You know, we're gonna have

to try something different.

331

00:17:18,375 --> 00:17:19,275

So yeah.

332

00:17:19,815 --> 00:17:21,015

They're there to call on.

333

00:17:21,015 --> 00:17:26,415

They're there loving us and wanting

the best for us in all that we do.

334

00:17:27,135 --> 00:17:29,025

And, uh, yeah.

335

00:17:29,055 --> 00:17:32,430

So there's, I'm probably

not the best person to, I'm,

336

00:17:32,475 --> 00:17:33,975

I'm not a spiritual teacher.

337

00:17:34,035 --> 00:17:34,995

I'm a no.

338

00:17:34,995 --> 00:17:36,375

But in, it's only

339

00:17:36,375 --> 00:17:39,310

in relation to your, your experience Yes.

340

00:17:39,315 --> 00:17:40,245

And your story.

341

00:17:40,245 --> 00:17:44,475

So I'd love to hear about your

experience and what it means to you.

342

00:17:44,625 --> 00:17:44,835

Yes.

343

00:17:45,885 --> 00:17:51,645

Well, for instance, when I'm

conducting a funeral or when I meet

344

00:17:51,645 --> 00:17:54,795

a family, let's go with that first.

345

00:17:54,795 --> 00:17:59,685

When I meet a family, the first

thing I think when I there with them

346

00:18:00,285 --> 00:18:02,990

is, where's the love needed here?

347

00:18:04,050 --> 00:18:05,010

What's the hurt?

348

00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:06,630

What's the wound here?

349

00:18:07,650 --> 00:18:16,050

Um, and, and as I talk and ask, I just

wanna be there as I ask them to tell

350

00:18:16,050 --> 00:18:18,810

me the truth about their loved one.

351

00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,600

'cause we all learned from

somebody else's journey.

352

00:18:22,290 --> 00:18:27,750

And they often, people can't tell the

truth, very hard to tell the truth in this

353

00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:34,650

world, but they might, as they relax, let

on a few of the hardships or the hurts.

354

00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:38,610

Um, now where was I going with that?

355

00:18:38,610 --> 00:18:39,355

So I'm, I'm,

356

00:18:41,460 --> 00:18:41,850

yeah.

357

00:18:41,850 --> 00:18:47,130

In, in that I'm talking to my guide

while I'm asking those questions.

358

00:18:47,970 --> 00:18:49,740

Help me to be in tune.

359

00:18:49,740 --> 00:18:50,850

What do I see?

360

00:18:50,940 --> 00:18:51,750

What am I hearing?

361

00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:52,890

What am I not hearing?

362

00:18:53,190 --> 00:18:54,900

What's that person not saying?

363

00:18:55,050 --> 00:18:55,170

Mm-hmm.

364

00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:59,790

Um, so then I go home and

I write up the ceremony.

365

00:18:59,850 --> 00:19:01,200

And as I'm writing.

366

00:19:02,129 --> 00:19:08,610

I feel like I'm in communion, uh,

with my guide, who can maybe see

367

00:19:08,610 --> 00:19:10,200

what's happened for that person.

368

00:19:11,220 --> 00:19:14,580

Uh, what's the wording needed here?

369

00:19:15,030 --> 00:19:23,400

What's, what will, uh, express,

uh, something, give me the words

370

00:19:23,430 --> 00:19:27,090

so that everyone, so people say,

oh, did you know that person?

371

00:19:27,420 --> 00:19:35,430

No, but I, I feel like I go into a

space where I'm in tune with my, my

372

00:19:35,430 --> 00:19:41,520

spirit guides helping me and with

the family and with the person who's

373

00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,490

passed, although they're often,

and they're gotta do their thing.

374

00:19:45,450 --> 00:19:54,150

And then at the ceremony, I ask my

guides, whoever's there come in and help.

375

00:19:54,450 --> 00:19:57,629

So then it's not a chore

for me to hold the space.

376

00:19:58,770 --> 00:20:00,595

I just say, you know, just.

377

00:20:01,290 --> 00:20:05,850

Let it be, let me just be a

conduit for what's needed here.

378

00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:11,400

Uh, yes, I may have prepared

very well, but in that moment,

379

00:20:11,580 --> 00:20:13,110

there's a whole lot going on.

380

00:20:13,620 --> 00:20:16,650

How do we bring this

group of people together?

381

00:20:17,130 --> 00:20:19,380

How can we create unity?

382

00:20:19,650 --> 00:20:25,500

How sometimes, and people might think this

is really weird, but I imagine everyone's

383

00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:27,840

guide standing behind them in the room.

384

00:20:28,530 --> 00:20:29,100

Well, some

385

00:20:29,100 --> 00:20:32,490

people will say, imagine the,

uh, the audience is naked.

386

00:20:32,490 --> 00:20:32,580

So,

387

00:20:33,510 --> 00:20:35,190

yes, I, I think I prefer your version.

388

00:20:35,190 --> 00:20:36,090

Yes, absolutely.

389

00:20:37,050 --> 00:20:39,240

So, uh, you know, um.

390

00:20:40,530 --> 00:20:41,190

Yeah.

391

00:20:41,340 --> 00:20:46,350

I like if, if I, I remember

there was a young man who died,

392

00:20:46,350 --> 00:20:47,790

I'd conducted his funeral.

393

00:20:48,270 --> 00:20:54,840

The room was full of young blokes in black

leather and tattoos and, and here I was in

394

00:20:54,840 --> 00:21:02,250

a floral suit or something, you know, so,

and I just said, all right, we've, we've

395

00:21:02,250 --> 00:21:04,530

gotta, these people are really hurting.

396

00:21:04,530 --> 00:21:05,040

They young.

397

00:21:05,129 --> 00:21:07,350

He came off his motorbike,

something like that.

398

00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:09,300

So they're all distressed.

399

00:21:11,879 --> 00:21:14,220

Help me to speak their language.

400

00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:23,700

Uh, and so the tone of my voice or Yeah,

what they might not even remember what I

401

00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:26,760

said, but people remember what they feel.

402

00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:27,270

Mm-hmm.

403

00:21:27,405 --> 00:21:27,625

And.

404

00:21:28,755 --> 00:21:32,985

Um, then they brought this young

man out and put him on the back

405

00:21:32,985 --> 00:21:34,515

of a ute or something like that.

406

00:21:34,515 --> 00:21:38,535

And I heard one of the young ones say,

oh, that lady was great, wasn't she?

407

00:21:38,745 --> 00:21:39,135

You know?

408

00:21:40,035 --> 00:21:41,625

And I thought, okay, thank you.

409

00:21:41,625 --> 00:21:42,165

You know?

410

00:21:42,165 --> 00:21:42,225

Yeah.

411

00:21:42,285 --> 00:21:44,325

Um, we hit the spot for them.

412

00:21:44,325 --> 00:21:45,435

So yeah.

413

00:21:45,435 --> 00:21:46,695

What happens afterwards?

414

00:21:46,695 --> 00:21:54,165

I don't know often, but in that moment

in time, my, my wish, my desire, my,

415

00:21:54,645 --> 00:22:02,475

my love for what spirit can do for

people, that's what I like to feel I

416

00:22:02,475 --> 00:22:04,725

can bring through in that ceremony.

417

00:22:05,265 --> 00:22:10,155

And I think it's important to say

that at its heart, a spiritual

418

00:22:10,185 --> 00:22:16,125

funeral is an honest funeral and

everybody deserves an honest funeral.

419

00:22:17,235 --> 00:22:22,635

And yeah, people, some people

say, you know, you know.

420

00:22:23,445 --> 00:22:25,004

Mom didn't believe in anything.

421

00:22:25,004 --> 00:22:26,235

Or when you die, you die.

422

00:22:26,235 --> 00:22:30,104

I've only had a handful of

people say that to me in, in 30

423

00:22:30,104 --> 00:22:31,875

years, when you die, you die.

424

00:22:31,875 --> 00:22:36,104

Most people go, oh, they're

with loved ones, gone before.

425

00:22:36,104 --> 00:22:37,514

They're at peace now.

426

00:22:37,875 --> 00:22:41,145

They're free of the

physical body now, you know?

427

00:22:41,205 --> 00:22:46,665

Um, even if they don't believe

in God or heaven, they believe in

428

00:22:46,665 --> 00:22:52,844

a, in a space, a place that, uh,

where their loved one is more free.

429

00:22:53,175 --> 00:22:53,534

Yeah.

430

00:22:54,284 --> 00:22:54,375

So.

431

00:22:55,050 --> 00:22:59,400

And tell me Leonie, you know, the, the,

the time that you are describing, and

432

00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:04,260

I, I think that as you're talking,

everyone will be thinking about those very

433

00:23:04,260 --> 00:23:06,095

important role that you have about mm-hmm.

434

00:23:06,900 --> 00:23:10,440

You know, when we, when we get

together with our loved ones

435

00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,855

and sometimes not so loved Yes.

436

00:23:12,855 --> 00:23:14,400

Uh, at, at funerals.

437

00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:15,420

Yeah.

438

00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:18,420

It is, it is really complicated

because you are bringing together

439

00:23:18,420 --> 00:23:22,860

people that may not have been together

for a very long period of time.

440

00:23:23,340 --> 00:23:25,530

Putting them all in the one room together.

441

00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:26,070

Yeah.

442

00:23:26,490 --> 00:23:32,015

And then you have to speak about someone

who can no longer represent themselves.

443

00:23:32,430 --> 00:23:33,900

They are, they are, have died.

444

00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:39,390

And, and so the information that

you receive is everyone's perception

445

00:23:39,390 --> 00:23:43,890

of that person, and then you have

to stand up there and deliver that.

446

00:23:43,895 --> 00:23:49,064

Mm. Tell me, you, you've talked a bit

about how you, you go through the process

447

00:23:49,064 --> 00:23:54,225

with, um, seeking assistance from your

spiritual guides in relation to that.

448

00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:54,320

Mm-hmm.

449

00:23:54,399 --> 00:23:59,355

And, and a little bit about how

you use language to assist you

450

00:23:59,355 --> 00:24:01,215

with communicating that Yes.

451

00:24:01,544 --> 00:24:03,254

And the importance of honesty.

452

00:24:03,405 --> 00:24:03,824

Yes.

453

00:24:04,544 --> 00:24:08,625

What does the role of ritual play

in that space when you're dealing

454

00:24:08,625 --> 00:24:10,514

with so many challenging things?

455

00:24:10,514 --> 00:24:10,605

Yes.

456

00:24:11,745 --> 00:24:12,225

Um,

457

00:24:14,625 --> 00:24:18,945

well, I think ritual and ceremony,

they're another language.

458

00:24:18,945 --> 00:24:22,635

We communicate with a

simple thing of lighting.

459

00:24:22,635 --> 00:24:25,754

A candle can bring tears to people.

460

00:24:27,135 --> 00:24:37,574

Um, I just feel, uh, yes, if people

don't have to speak, but can, can do

461

00:24:37,574 --> 00:24:42,284

things like, uh, for instance, I might

say one of the questions I might,

462

00:24:42,389 --> 00:24:43,965

what, what was their favorite color?

463

00:24:44,955 --> 00:24:46,035

What were they good at?

464

00:24:46,035 --> 00:24:50,955

What, what, uh, would they

say was their best attribute?

465

00:24:51,495 --> 00:24:53,775

What did they, were they good cook?

466

00:24:53,775 --> 00:25:00,525

You know, I try and just go, start simple

like that and then they feel excited.

467

00:25:01,335 --> 00:25:04,995

Ah, Nana always had a jar of

jelly beans in the cupboard.

468

00:25:05,715 --> 00:25:06,675

Can we have that there?

469

00:25:06,765 --> 00:25:07,545

Yes.

470

00:25:07,725 --> 00:25:08,535

Bring that.

471

00:25:08,535 --> 00:25:11,985

And why don't you dish them out to

everybody at the end of the ceremony?

472

00:25:12,375 --> 00:25:14,295

So even simple things like that.

473

00:25:14,295 --> 00:25:19,965

I think, uh, uh, little rituals

or it was the person, an artist.

474

00:25:19,965 --> 00:25:23,055

Let's bring whether they're

a great crochet or painter or

475

00:25:25,335 --> 00:25:28,815

photographer, let's

bring that into the room.

476

00:25:29,085 --> 00:25:34,905

The essence of that person into the

room, and the ritual of bringing that

477

00:25:34,905 --> 00:25:43,125

in and placing it and making a space

that's got all that beauty in it.

478

00:25:43,365 --> 00:25:43,785

Yeah.

479

00:25:45,075 --> 00:25:46,605

And music too.

480

00:25:46,605 --> 00:25:49,725

I think, um, that moves us.

481

00:25:49,725 --> 00:25:54,825

That's another important

part of ritual and ceremony.

482

00:25:55,695 --> 00:26:01,725

A beautiful soprano voice can make your

spine tingle, you know, or music puts

483

00:26:01,725 --> 00:26:06,165

us in a place of deep thought and yeah.

484

00:26:06,705 --> 00:26:09,255

Um, am I answering your question?

485

00:26:09,255 --> 00:26:09,810

I dunno.

486

00:26:09,810 --> 00:26:11,385

Yeah, that's, I dunno if I, I'm putting

487

00:26:11,385 --> 00:26:13,125

myself in the room with those people.

488

00:26:13,125 --> 00:26:17,925

No, it is really helpful because

especially those insight to the questions

489

00:26:17,925 --> 00:26:22,785

about how you work with families to

try and work out what is their thing.

490

00:26:22,845 --> 00:26:22,965

Yes.

491

00:26:22,965 --> 00:26:24,825

You know, what is their story?

492

00:26:24,825 --> 00:26:28,575

What is well, their story or

connection with the person who's died.

493

00:26:28,575 --> 00:26:28,935

That's right.

494

00:26:29,265 --> 00:26:33,645

You know, um, 'cause sometimes people

don't think about this process.

495

00:26:33,645 --> 00:26:34,125

They don't until

496

00:26:34,125 --> 00:26:35,175

they're actually in it.

497

00:26:35,180 --> 00:26:35,930

That's, and that's so hard.

498

00:26:36,345 --> 00:26:37,005

That's right.

499

00:26:37,305 --> 00:26:37,815

Yes.

500

00:26:37,815 --> 00:26:40,335

And I think it's

important to start simple.

501

00:26:40,335 --> 00:26:43,095

No matter, no matter what, you know.

502

00:26:43,470 --> 00:26:51,120

I've sat in, I've sat in, um, some very

wealthy family homes, and then that

503

00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:57,480

afternoon gone to somebody's home who's a

hoarder and little money, you know, so you

504

00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:05,790

see, but still people, uh, there's some

similarities always underneath, no matter

505

00:27:05,790 --> 00:27:09,690

your station in life, I think everybody

feels they need to be understood.

506

00:27:10,290 --> 00:27:13,560

Everyone needs to feel that

they're loved in life, don't they?

507

00:27:14,790 --> 00:27:20,100

Let me tell you about a family

that, um, was quite memorable.

508

00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:21,450

It's just coming to mind.

509

00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,570

Uh, they were at war with each other.

510

00:27:26,250 --> 00:27:29,880

I've meet a lot of families who are at

war with each other, and sometimes I

511

00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,300

wonder why they're having a funeral,

but, but they still have that

512

00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:35,040

feeling that's the right thing to do.

513

00:27:35,580 --> 00:27:35,850

Uh, but it

514

00:27:35,850 --> 00:27:37,470

is a good question to ask.

515

00:27:37,470 --> 00:27:38,910

Yeah, like sometimes.

516

00:27:39,764 --> 00:27:41,115

Is it really appropriate?

517

00:27:41,115 --> 00:27:44,355

Like if they are that warring,

do they re, do they really feel

518

00:27:44,355 --> 00:27:45,705

like they have to go ahead?

519

00:27:46,155 --> 00:27:50,115

Well, sometimes it's in the person's

will that they want a funeral.

520

00:27:50,115 --> 00:27:51,105

So they do.

521

00:27:51,105 --> 00:27:55,905

Or there's one person in the family that

organize it, or just that they have never

522

00:27:55,905 --> 00:27:58,305

thought they couldn't have a funeral.

523

00:27:58,395 --> 00:27:58,725

Yeah.

524

00:27:58,725 --> 00:27:59,715

They just think they should.

525

00:28:00,135 --> 00:28:00,375

Anyway.

526

00:28:00,375 --> 00:28:04,935

This particular family, they were so at

war with each other that they came in

527

00:28:04,935 --> 00:28:08,115

through different doors into the chapel.

528

00:28:08,355 --> 00:28:11,115

They sat on opposite sides of the chapel.

529

00:28:11,865 --> 00:28:16,425

They were all scally faced and

very closed down emotionally.

530

00:28:16,875 --> 00:28:18,195

Oh, that's a hard audience.

531

00:28:18,225 --> 00:28:18,855

Yes.

532

00:28:19,485 --> 00:28:25,665

So I can't remember what I said

now, but I do remember that.

533

00:28:26,535 --> 00:28:30,795

Alright, I, I need to

create some unity here.

534

00:28:30,795 --> 00:28:37,635

I need to them to feel that they're

here for a reason or, you know, um.

535

00:28:38,235 --> 00:28:43,335

And to do the best I can so that they

feel that they've done the best they can.

536

00:28:43,395 --> 00:28:44,024

They can.

537

00:28:45,314 --> 00:28:52,155

And about 10 minutes in one of the

grandchildren, I can't even remember

538

00:28:52,155 --> 00:28:56,115

how old she was, she may have been

12 ish or something like that, got

539

00:28:56,115 --> 00:29:00,735

out of a seat, went to the other side

of the room and embraced somebody

540

00:29:00,855 --> 00:29:04,034

and said out loud, I love you.

541

00:29:05,774 --> 00:29:07,845

Now this had me in tears of course.

542

00:29:07,845 --> 00:29:08,745

And Wow.

543

00:29:08,745 --> 00:29:15,345

And so, and this started the tears

and still people were sitting still,

544

00:29:15,345 --> 00:29:18,495

but you know, but that broke the ice.

545

00:29:19,034 --> 00:29:19,455

Yeah.

546

00:29:19,544 --> 00:29:20,145

What a

547

00:29:20,595 --> 00:29:21,225

outrageous

548

00:29:21,225 --> 00:29:22,304

12-year-old girl.

549

00:29:22,335 --> 00:29:22,814

Yes.

550

00:29:22,820 --> 00:29:23,020

So.

551

00:29:24,690 --> 00:29:29,820

I thank my guides in that time for helping

me create the space where she feels

552

00:29:29,820 --> 00:29:32,220

she could actually get up and do that.

553

00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:32,640

Yeah.

554

00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:33,060

You know?

555

00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,230

And her guide was probably

in her ear saying, you know,

556

00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:38,460

why are you sitting here?

557

00:29:38,460 --> 00:29:41,460

You, you know, you love

grandpa or whoever it was.

558

00:29:41,460 --> 00:29:43,320

She went and embraced, I can't remember.

559

00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:51,240

Um, and so by the end of the funeral,

there was a feeling of we've done

560

00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:56,370

the right thing and you know, we've,

we've said goodbye to, was it grandma?

561

00:29:56,370 --> 00:29:57,540

I don't, I can't remember.

562

00:29:58,140 --> 00:30:02,400

Um, and they even had

refreshments together.

563

00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:03,780

Now, what happened after that?

564

00:30:03,780 --> 00:30:05,880

As I say, I don't dunno.

565

00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,820

I often ring the families, well,

they always ring the families

566

00:30:08,820 --> 00:30:12,900

about 10 days after a funeral just

to see how they're traveling now.

567

00:30:12,900 --> 00:30:18,960

All the organizations finished and

paperwork's underway, and they may

568

00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,720

have collected the ashes or whatever.

569

00:30:21,795 --> 00:30:24,765

Yeah, so I just check, usually check in.

570

00:30:24,765 --> 00:30:29,385

But, um, and some people,

uh, of course now are feeling

571

00:30:29,385 --> 00:30:31,365

that aloneness that happens.

572

00:30:31,545 --> 00:30:31,905

Mm-hmm.

573

00:30:32,325 --> 00:30:38,175

So they're grateful for a voice a little

bit along the track to see how they are.

574

00:30:38,475 --> 00:30:38,925

Yeah.

575

00:30:39,375 --> 00:30:43,515

And what is the, the things that you

find that are challenging for people

576

00:30:44,355 --> 00:30:48,675

after the funeral's been, people have

probably, you know, gone back to their,

577

00:30:48,675 --> 00:30:50,805

their working lives by this stage.

578

00:30:51,255 --> 00:30:54,285

Uh, you know, 10 days is

not a very long time, is it?

579

00:30:54,285 --> 00:30:54,715

No, no.

580

00:30:55,275 --> 00:31:00,915

Um, look, there's a lot to

do with organizing a funeral.

581

00:31:01,305 --> 00:31:03,435

There's a lot of, uh, paperwork.

582

00:31:03,435 --> 00:31:07,485

There's a lot of, you know, you might

be the executor as well and have to deal

583

00:31:07,815 --> 00:31:12,255

with the room at the nursing home or, you

know, so there's lots of things to keep

584

00:31:12,255 --> 00:31:15,255

busy and it keeps your grief at bay a bit.

585

00:31:15,825 --> 00:31:19,480

But there comes a point,

um, where of course.

586

00:31:20,505 --> 00:31:25,365

And people stop dropping food off or,

you know, uh, the cards have stopped

587

00:31:25,365 --> 00:31:31,305

coming in the mail or whatever, and

people just get on with their lives.

588

00:31:31,305 --> 00:31:35,925

And so you're left, say it's a husband

and wife and they've been together

589

00:31:35,955 --> 00:31:41,925

60, 70 years, you know, suddenly it's

like their right arm's being cut off.

590

00:31:42,045 --> 00:31:42,165

Mm-hmm.

591

00:31:43,455 --> 00:31:50,055

Um, and the alone at night, you know, uh,

and who do you talk to about your day?

592

00:31:50,685 --> 00:31:51,555

That sort of thing.

593

00:31:52,305 --> 00:31:55,005

So, um, and setting the place for one,

594

00:31:55,005 --> 00:31:57,615

I think is the, setting the

place for why the big thing

595

00:31:57,615 --> 00:31:59,325

that is, is such a difference.

596

00:31:59,325 --> 00:32:02,565

You know, if they were someone who

would sit down at a dinner table

597

00:32:02,565 --> 00:32:06,405

at night every night, and then

that placement of, of just one.

598

00:32:06,435 --> 00:32:07,005

Yes.

599

00:32:07,035 --> 00:32:07,365

Yeah.

600

00:32:07,425 --> 00:32:12,795

The changes of routine, the way the

changes in the way you communicate, um.

601

00:32:13,365 --> 00:32:17,295

In how you're seen, you know,

now you're a widower, you know?

602

00:32:17,955 --> 00:32:18,105

Yeah.

603

00:32:18,105 --> 00:32:18,825

That sort of thing.

604

00:32:18,945 --> 00:32:20,505

We're very quick to label, aren't we?

605

00:32:20,505 --> 00:32:21,795

Yes, absolutely.

606

00:32:21,855 --> 00:32:27,945

So, um, 10 days afterwards isn't,

um, they're not over things yet.

607

00:32:28,095 --> 00:32:32,445

They're really just at the

start of their grieving.

608

00:32:32,805 --> 00:32:37,155

So I just say, you know,

how, how was everything?

609

00:32:37,155 --> 00:32:39,375

How was the wake or the reception?

610

00:32:39,375 --> 00:32:42,825

Or, you know, how are you

traveling since I saw you?

611

00:32:43,905 --> 00:32:47,445

Um, might talk about the funeral

a little bit or whatever.

612

00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,075

And I, and I'll often say, well,

you know, you can always ring

613

00:32:51,075 --> 00:32:52,215

if you need someone to chat to.

614

00:32:53,445 --> 00:32:56,985

And yeah, but it's just

another little point.

615

00:32:57,285 --> 00:33:02,145

And then usually at the, um, yearly

mark, the first anniversary can

616

00:33:02,145 --> 00:33:04,065

be one of the toughest times.

617

00:33:04,575 --> 00:33:06,375

I'll always send a card in the mail.

618

00:33:06,375 --> 00:33:08,295

Very old fashioned thing to do.

619

00:33:09,015 --> 00:33:09,315

Ah, such a

620

00:33:09,315 --> 00:33:10,185

lovely thing to do

621

00:33:10,185 --> 00:33:10,395

though.

622

00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:10,600

Yeah.

623

00:33:10,995 --> 00:33:15,435

So I just, I'm thinking of you, it's the

first anniversary can be a tough day.

624

00:33:16,635 --> 00:33:22,725

Um, you know, and wish you, I hope

there's been some blessings for you in the

625

00:33:22,725 --> 00:33:25,004

year along with the sadness that you feel.

626

00:33:25,065 --> 00:33:28,485

So Yeah, it's just the

keep going sort of thing.

627

00:33:28,935 --> 00:33:33,135

Of course, you know, some people just

get right on with things, but a lot

628

00:33:33,135 --> 00:33:36,075

of grief can still go unacknowledged.

629

00:33:36,495 --> 00:33:36,855

Yeah.

630

00:33:38,265 --> 00:33:41,955

And when you say unacknowledged,

what grief were you, comes

631

00:33:41,955 --> 00:33:43,065

to mind when you say that?

632

00:33:43,754 --> 00:33:51,615

Uh, I think with say siblings,

because that was my experience.

633

00:33:53,550 --> 00:33:58,080

I can remember my mother saying

to me, you wouldn't remember that.

634

00:33:58,530 --> 00:34:01,410

You know, why are you

asking about that Mom?

635

00:34:01,410 --> 00:34:09,060

Mom, you could not talk about Karen in

my lifetime with her about, about it.

636

00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:10,320

You wouldn't remember.

637

00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:15,030

So, you know, so it was so

painful for her, but I'd lost,

638

00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:16,710

as I said, my best friend.

639

00:34:17,460 --> 00:34:22,350

So I think, you know, I try

to encourage people to include

640

00:34:22,350 --> 00:34:23,940

the children at the ceremony.

641

00:34:23,970 --> 00:34:27,300

I don't mind if kids are running up and

down the aisle in a sense, you know,

642

00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:32,850

it's good if they learn respect and

quietness at those times, but I think

643

00:34:32,850 --> 00:34:34,740

it's good to include children in it.

644

00:34:34,740 --> 00:34:36,000

It's a part of life.

645

00:34:36,060 --> 00:34:37,260

This is a part of life.

646

00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:44,730

Um, so I think siblings loss can be

unacknowledged if, um, if siblings died

647

00:34:44,730 --> 00:34:46,740

or if their mom or dad's died, you know?

648

00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,010

Um, also maybe with the.

649

00:34:51,465 --> 00:34:55,455

Young people now and there's

a dreadful amount of suicides.

650

00:34:55,455 --> 00:35:01,965

You know, uh, just keeping on top

of that with young people where

651

00:35:01,965 --> 00:35:06,165

they're at, you know, like yeah.

652

00:35:06,165 --> 00:35:07,665

What's available to them.

653

00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:07,700

'cause

654

00:35:10,335 --> 00:35:15,255

they even down the track, you know,

six months, a year down the track,

655

00:35:15,255 --> 00:35:17,085

some are still really hurting.

656

00:35:17,445 --> 00:35:24,465

Um, yeah, so grief counseling is a big,

big role to play and luckily we are more

657

00:35:24,465 --> 00:35:31,155

aware of that now, but, uh, I still think

you're meant to just get on, you know?

658

00:35:31,695 --> 00:35:33,585

People want you to get on with your grief.

659

00:35:33,870 --> 00:35:34,695

Yeah, yeah.

660

00:35:34,695 --> 00:35:35,205

The, um,

661

00:35:35,385 --> 00:35:40,725

the, the old, the old, uh, you know,

misconception of grief has stages and

662

00:35:40,725 --> 00:35:46,455

there's a set period of time for someone

to grieve is, is a, a challenge I think

663

00:35:46,455 --> 00:35:48,765

we still have to continually talk about.

664

00:35:48,765 --> 00:35:49,185

Yeah,

665

00:35:49,425 --> 00:35:49,965

totally.

666

00:35:50,295 --> 00:35:54,855

And, and I, I just say even when you've

got your religious or your spiritual

667

00:35:54,855 --> 00:36:01,485

beliefs, grief is still a hard road

and life's full of buttons and downs,

668

00:36:01,485 --> 00:36:07,935

but grief is a really deep, deep down,

you know, so, but if you have a belief

669

00:36:07,935 --> 00:36:12,705

that there's more than just this world,

that if there was love between you

670

00:36:12,705 --> 00:36:18,435

and the person that has died, that

is eternal, you will see them again.

671

00:36:19,095 --> 00:36:22,275

Uh, you know, the spiritual world

is just there and the person

672

00:36:22,275 --> 00:36:26,390

who's died, they don't, they'll

send you signs if you're open.

673

00:36:27,165 --> 00:36:30,795

You know that they're, they're allowed

to come and visit you from time to time.

674

00:36:31,424 --> 00:36:33,795

Um, yeah.

675

00:36:33,795 --> 00:36:37,695

So I think if you've got that

belief that there's more than

676

00:36:37,695 --> 00:36:41,625

here, you can stay strong in that.

677

00:36:41,805 --> 00:36:45,615

Like, you've still gotta

grieve, but there's hope.

678

00:36:45,915 --> 00:36:46,634

There is hope.

679

00:36:46,904 --> 00:36:47,355

Yeah.

680

00:36:48,075 --> 00:36:51,765

Um, yeah, I think that's it.

681

00:36:52,005 --> 00:36:57,674

And, and tell me, Leonie, you have

mentioned you've been an actress,

682

00:36:57,674 --> 00:36:59,384

you even quoted Shakespeare.

683

00:36:59,895 --> 00:37:04,154

Uh, I'm sure your, your skills as an

actress coming very much handy when you're

684

00:37:04,154 --> 00:37:08,235

standing in front of an audience like

you, you are challenging either side.

685

00:37:08,295 --> 00:37:09,855

Families separated.

686

00:37:09,855 --> 00:37:09,915

Yeah.

687

00:37:10,335 --> 00:37:12,015

Would've come into very good play.

688

00:37:12,015 --> 00:37:16,424

Then tell me about your transition

professionally, how you've moved from,

689

00:37:16,424 --> 00:37:19,935

from those different roles to what

you're doing now and you know, have

690

00:37:19,935 --> 00:37:22,305

been doing for quite some time now.

691

00:37:22,310 --> 00:37:22,529

Um.

692

00:37:24,255 --> 00:37:29,445

Okay, so let me just say, I believe when

we incarnate in this world, we have a

693

00:37:29,445 --> 00:37:31,785

purpose that we are meant to fulfill.

694

00:37:32,565 --> 00:37:38,475

And as I say, that jumping off

point was my sister's death.

695

00:37:41,055 --> 00:37:43,245

I was drawn to the theater.

696

00:37:43,785 --> 00:37:44,355

Uh,

697

00:37:46,635 --> 00:37:52,905

I, I think it was somehow filling

me up in some way, gaining

698

00:37:52,905 --> 00:38:02,265

confidence or, um, an expression

of something that was innately me.

699

00:38:02,325 --> 00:38:08,895

I think that I came in with, uh,

this creative expression in that way.

700

00:38:08,895 --> 00:38:12,165

Some people come in as

artists, whatever, writers.

701

00:38:12,885 --> 00:38:18,045

Um, and then it came to a

point where I could no longer.

702

00:38:19,710 --> 00:38:24,870

Uh, played the ingenue roles and

I looked too young to play the

703

00:38:24,870 --> 00:38:29,700

mother or the grandmother, so

I kind of stopped getting work.

704

00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,920

And so then I thought, well,

what, what can I do now?

705

00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,285

And I, and I somehow had always

been interested in death.

706

00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,690

And even in the, one of the companies

I worked with, I helped write a

707

00:38:42,690 --> 00:38:48,390

play about grandma dying and it went

round to schools and nursing homes.

708

00:38:49,424 --> 00:38:52,755

Looking back over her

life and reliving things.

709

00:38:52,755 --> 00:38:59,055

We use puppetry and music and

um, so I thought, ah, yes,

710

00:38:59,055 --> 00:39:00,735

it's always been there somehow.

711

00:39:00,735 --> 00:39:05,085

So I went to a day seminar.

712

00:39:05,085 --> 00:39:10,065

I saw something advertised in the

funeral industry, and I sat at a table

713

00:39:10,065 --> 00:39:14,145

with someone and said, I'm interested

to work in the funeral industry.

714

00:39:14,145 --> 00:39:16,065

And they pointed, see

that lady over there?

715

00:39:16,365 --> 00:39:20,415

She's starting up White

lady funerals in Melbourne.

716

00:39:21,345 --> 00:39:22,605

You might get a job there.

717

00:39:22,605 --> 00:39:23,444

So I did.

718

00:39:23,745 --> 00:39:24,525

And then I did.

719

00:39:25,424 --> 00:39:26,025

So, wow.

720

00:39:26,025 --> 00:39:27,555

So yeah.

721

00:39:27,615 --> 00:39:32,985

Uh, and from nursing, because in my

nursing career I did a lot of palliative

722

00:39:32,985 --> 00:39:35,355

care nursing and I really liked it.

723

00:39:35,355 --> 00:39:41,535

I worked with the AIDS boys in

up in Kings Cross in, um, in, uh,

724

00:39:41,565 --> 00:39:44,714

Sydney at the, uh, hospice up there.

725

00:39:45,615 --> 00:39:47,350

Um, and.

726

00:39:48,300 --> 00:39:50,100

So I learned a lot there.

727

00:39:50,550 --> 00:39:53,595

And what period of time

was that, that role up there?

728

00:39:53,595 --> 00:39:54,690

Um, I'm trying to think.

729

00:39:54,690 --> 00:39:57,870

That was, uh, in my forties.

730

00:39:58,110 --> 00:40:02,370

Yeah, my late in my early,

late thirties, early forties.

731

00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:08,220

I worked in that, that was when, you

know, there was, uh, Australia was

732

00:40:08,220 --> 00:40:14,340

leading, leading, uh, on, uh, caring

for the AIDS boys at that time.

733

00:40:14,340 --> 00:40:19,230

And not just boys, but mainly with nurse,

nurse, the gay community at that time.

734

00:40:20,010 --> 00:40:25,320

Um, yeah, so I, I learned a lot

there and saw a lot of, of course,

735

00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:29,400

in palliative care you see a lot of

death and different ways people die.

736

00:40:29,730 --> 00:40:32,250

I saw how people fought it sometimes.

737

00:40:32,550 --> 00:40:34,590

I saw how people surrendered to it.

738

00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:39,900

I saw people that had lots of friends

and family around them, and the

739

00:40:39,900 --> 00:40:41,490

love that was there in the room.

740

00:40:41,730 --> 00:40:43,530

I saw people die alone.

741

00:40:43,890 --> 00:40:45,930

I saw people die wretchedly.

742

00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:47,700

I saw people die.

743

00:40:48,075 --> 00:40:52,904

Just serenely, you know, saw

people die in my arms, you know?

744

00:40:52,904 --> 00:40:56,085

So, um, yeah.

745

00:40:56,145 --> 00:41:00,975

So in, doesn't sound like there's

any uniform way in which people died.

746

00:41:01,130 --> 00:41:01,350

No.

747

00:41:01,665 --> 00:41:01,995

No.

748

00:41:02,685 --> 00:41:05,745

And you know, everyone likes

to write in the newspaper.

749

00:41:05,835 --> 00:41:07,755

You know, Mary died peacefully.

750

00:41:08,505 --> 00:41:10,815

Well, what about joyfully?

751

00:41:10,815 --> 00:41:12,825

What about graciously?

752

00:41:12,915 --> 00:41:14,415

What about indignant?

753

00:41:14,775 --> 00:41:18,075

What about ferociously?

754

00:41:18,075 --> 00:41:18,990

What about, yeah.

755

00:41:20,355 --> 00:41:20,595

I love

756

00:41:20,595 --> 00:41:20,865

that.

757

00:41:20,865 --> 00:41:20,905

Yeah, I love that.

758

00:41:20,905 --> 00:41:22,575

So I, I, I agree with you.

759

00:41:22,575 --> 00:41:27,470

I think that we should actually expand our

repertoire of, of how we describe that.

760

00:41:27,855 --> 00:41:28,694

I think that's great.

761

00:41:28,964 --> 00:41:31,214

I think though, why we say peacefully?

762

00:41:31,245 --> 00:41:37,935

'cause usually in those last moments

before we die, there is a recognition.

763

00:41:38,205 --> 00:41:38,835

That's it.

764

00:41:39,765 --> 00:41:45,225

Like I, I'm saying spiritually

and con, uh, subconsciously.

765

00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:47,265

Oh, the, that's it.

766

00:41:47,790 --> 00:41:49,500

I am going and then you're gone.

767

00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:57,180

So there is a surrender in those last

maybe minute or two of, of you dying.

768

00:41:58,020 --> 00:41:59,549

And that's something obviously

769

00:41:59,939 --> 00:42:03,089

you have physically seen

too, in your experience.

770

00:42:03,390 --> 00:42:05,220

Yes, yes, yes.

771

00:42:05,399 --> 00:42:11,279

And how much do you think what you've

witnessed, uh, in person and, and,

772

00:42:11,279 --> 00:42:15,990

and those deaths that you think about,

how much has then that supported

773

00:42:15,990 --> 00:42:18,509

where your spirituality has grown?

774

00:42:18,689 --> 00:42:19,140

Mm.

775

00:42:22,049 --> 00:42:28,950

Well, I think it's just seeing

life, experiencing life.

776

00:42:29,759 --> 00:42:36,120

And I don't see a spiritual

life being separate from life.

777

00:42:36,990 --> 00:42:38,339

It's just is.

778

00:42:39,660 --> 00:42:41,729

And yeah.

779

00:42:41,729 --> 00:42:45,240

So I just think it's informed my purpose.

780

00:42:46,125 --> 00:42:49,694

And I think I'm a healer

of work with words.

781

00:42:50,415 --> 00:42:52,815

You know, I, I did the healing as a nurse.

782

00:42:52,815 --> 00:42:54,435

I know how to comfort people.

783

00:42:54,435 --> 00:42:58,185

I know how to make them

feel comfortable in a bed.

784

00:42:58,274 --> 00:43:01,634

I usually can see what's needed there.

785

00:43:01,634 --> 00:43:04,365

So I learned those basic skills.

786

00:43:04,365 --> 00:43:11,234

Then as an actress, I learned

how to, uh, create space.

787

00:43:11,714 --> 00:43:16,725

How that, how you said something

could change the meaning of

788

00:43:16,725 --> 00:43:18,765

a sentence, the intonation.

789

00:43:19,274 --> 00:43:26,085

Um, and I probably didn't learn to be,

well, as an actress, you're trying to

790

00:43:26,085 --> 00:43:29,955

come across as being really real, but

of course you're acting, aren't you?

791

00:43:30,589 --> 00:43:37,095

So, so, but that taught me how to

create space, how to make sound, how

792

00:43:37,095 --> 00:43:41,170

to, um, bring, bring an audience in.

793

00:43:41,535 --> 00:43:44,500

Uh, seduce them in a way, you know?

794

00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:44,980

Mm-hmm.

795

00:43:45,065 --> 00:43:47,085

And relive the experience.

796

00:43:47,115 --> 00:43:49,964

'cause theater is actually

reflecting back life.

797

00:43:50,024 --> 00:43:50,295

Yeah.

798

00:43:51,134 --> 00:43:58,515

And then, um, uh, as a funeral director,

I was getting all the knowledge, what was

799

00:43:58,515 --> 00:44:07,845

going on in the background, what, how to

look after a deceased body, how, uh, that,

800

00:44:09,315 --> 00:44:16,785

that we, we still have to that body that,

that, that body carried that person, that

801

00:44:16,785 --> 00:44:21,404

spirit around for, you know, 93 years.

802

00:44:21,404 --> 00:44:25,065

You know, you honor that and you

look after it and care for it.

803

00:44:25,065 --> 00:44:30,315

So, um, and then transport it to

a crem and then you see it go into

804

00:44:30,315 --> 00:44:33,674

a cremator or into the ground.

805

00:44:33,674 --> 00:44:40,549

And so I feel all of those

practical things just.

806

00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:48,090

Um, built on, it's, to me, it's

just a natural progression or just a

807

00:44:48,090 --> 00:44:52,470

natural part of making up who I am.

808

00:44:52,620 --> 00:44:53,070

Yeah.

809

00:44:53,910 --> 00:44:56,700

And when you had that

conversation with the lady who

810

00:44:56,700 --> 00:44:58,290

was starting White Lady Funerals?

811

00:44:58,290 --> 00:44:58,710

Yes.

812

00:44:58,770 --> 00:44:58,860

Yeah.

813

00:44:59,430 --> 00:45:02,910

Was that when you started to become

a funeral director at that point?

814

00:45:02,910 --> 00:45:06,930

Yes, at that point I think she,

she took my name and number

815

00:45:06,930 --> 00:45:08,550

and said, I'll give you a call.

816

00:45:08,970 --> 00:45:12,300

We're just sorting out staffing

levels, et cetera, et cetera.

817

00:45:12,300 --> 00:45:14,910

And then she called me and

I think I started, you know,

818

00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:16,200

she rang me on the Friday.

819

00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:17,610

I started on the Monday.

820

00:45:18,180 --> 00:45:26,880

Um, yeah, so it was, uh,

and of course kind of thing.

821

00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:32,190

So from, um, yeah, theater

and then straight into that.

822

00:45:32,940 --> 00:45:37,710

And then the reason I started

to do Celebrancy work because

823

00:45:37,830 --> 00:45:39,150

families would come in.

824

00:45:40,275 --> 00:45:46,455

Who didn't want a priest or clergy,

but they couldn't afford a celebrant.

825

00:45:46,455 --> 00:45:49,485

'cause a celebrant costs

more than, than the priest.

826

00:45:51,405 --> 00:46:00,405

I was already employed and I watched how

celebrants did it, so I volunteered, well

827

00:46:00,465 --> 00:46:02,655

I could do that little ceremony for them.

828

00:46:03,045 --> 00:46:05,715

It's in the chapel, I'm already on salary.

829

00:46:06,225 --> 00:46:09,045

Um, I can write something up for them.

830

00:46:09,525 --> 00:46:11,655

So that's how I got my smarts.

831

00:46:11,655 --> 00:46:12,315

Really.

832

00:46:12,345 --> 00:46:12,795

Wow.

833

00:46:12,945 --> 00:46:14,950

So it was just an evolution

that happened and Yeah.

834

00:46:15,045 --> 00:46:20,505

And so that's now at my age, I'm looking

back from that 3-year-old little girl.

835

00:46:20,505 --> 00:46:21,435

She wasn't quite three.

836

00:46:21,765 --> 00:46:29,955

And I just see each my time in the Church

of Christ, how that was, um, 'cause home

837

00:46:29,955 --> 00:46:37,030

life was pretty awful, but I was nurtured

as a child in the church, so I had.

838

00:46:38,115 --> 00:46:40,965

Uh, a growing love of spirit.

839

00:46:41,145 --> 00:46:45,225

Then, although as I said before, I

would've called it God then, but I, I

840

00:46:45,225 --> 00:46:50,655

see that and evolving into, um, nursing.

841

00:46:50,865 --> 00:46:54,255

Uh, I just, one day,

well, it's actually funny.

842

00:46:54,255 --> 00:46:59,025

I worked in a bank for a year

after I left school and they had an

843

00:46:59,025 --> 00:47:05,115

upstairs bathroom and I was coming

down the steps from the bathroom

844

00:47:05,205 --> 00:47:07,755

and I heard a voice say, be a nurse.

845

00:47:08,985 --> 00:47:12,915

And I turned around, thought

someone was behind me talking to

846

00:47:12,915 --> 00:47:14,895

me, and there was no one there.

847

00:47:14,895 --> 00:47:15,915

It was my guide.

848

00:47:15,915 --> 00:47:18,495

I worked out later be a nurse.

849

00:47:19,335 --> 00:47:20,655

Isn't that amazing?

850

00:47:20,835 --> 00:47:20,895

Yeah.

851

00:47:20,895 --> 00:47:22,785

And so, oh, I thought, oh.

852

00:47:23,115 --> 00:47:29,865

And there, so I, um, at the time,

uh, I saw an, I think in local

853

00:47:29,865 --> 00:47:36,270

newspaper, I. They were taking their

next, uh, lot of enrollments at the,

854

00:47:36,450 --> 00:47:38,130

at the hospital, local hospital.

855

00:47:38,910 --> 00:47:43,440

And so I signed up next minute, I'm

getting fitted out for a uniform and,

856

00:47:44,220 --> 00:47:46,500

and learning how to empty a bed pan.

857

00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:48,600

Wow.

858

00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:52,980

It sounds like that there's been

certain moments in your life

859

00:47:52,980 --> 00:47:53,070

Yes.

860

00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:57,360

Where it seems like

everything's aligned very well

861

00:47:57,780 --> 00:47:57,990

862

00:47:57,990 --> 00:48:00,540

those moments where you

were sort of at a crossroad.

863

00:48:00,795 --> 00:48:01,015

Yes.

864

00:48:02,035 --> 00:48:08,190

And yes, I would totally agree,

but I had to be open to that.

865

00:48:08,910 --> 00:48:10,590

I had to hear it, didn't I?

866

00:48:11,130 --> 00:48:15,510

Um, and that's not to say I haven't gone

off track at times in my life, you know?

867

00:48:17,070 --> 00:48:17,460

But.

868

00:48:18,134 --> 00:48:26,535

Uh, I believe that I can see the pattern,

I can see the journey, I can see, um,

869

00:48:26,625 --> 00:48:29,685

who helped me get to the next bit.

870

00:48:30,345 --> 00:48:34,335

And we all have that if we are

open to seeing that, you know,

871

00:48:35,055 --> 00:48:37,095

we are all in our minds too much.

872

00:48:37,095 --> 00:48:40,335

And that's what I've been learning

with my spiritual teachers now

873

00:48:41,055 --> 00:48:43,964

that it's all in how we feel.

874

00:48:44,714 --> 00:48:49,694

And if you're in touch with your

feelings, and that's what I try to, uh,

875

00:48:50,174 --> 00:48:55,424

put into my funerals, spiritual funerals

and honor funerals, a feeling funeral.

876

00:48:56,654 --> 00:48:59,265

We are here for a certain period of time.

877

00:48:59,265 --> 00:49:03,495

We dunno if it's like my sister

Karen, for four years or if

878

00:49:03,495 --> 00:49:05,745

you're here for 104 years.

879

00:49:06,345 --> 00:49:08,535

Um, how do you wanna live that life?

880

00:49:08,595 --> 00:49:13,754

You know what, and, and if I get people to

reflect on their loved one's life, right?

881

00:49:13,754 --> 00:49:14,654

What if they taught.

882

00:49:16,065 --> 00:49:19,005

What have you learned from

being, what did you teach them?

883

00:49:19,455 --> 00:49:27,465

You know, and a gratitude for those

learnings and how to now you want to

884

00:49:27,465 --> 00:49:30,465

live your life, how do you wanna go on?

885

00:49:31,154 --> 00:49:35,595

'cause there's, I think, you know,

everyone wants to be loved and understood.

886

00:49:35,865 --> 00:49:41,415

Everybody also wants to have made

a difference to someone somewhere

887

00:49:41,415 --> 00:49:45,285

in the world that they haven't

lived their lives for nothing.

888

00:49:46,424 --> 00:49:50,805

And thirdly, we all don't wanna die

alone with no one caring about us.

889

00:49:52,125 --> 00:49:57,944

So I try, you know, that's

behind everything I try and do in

890

00:49:57,944 --> 00:50:04,665

the ceremonies that, yeah, get people

to try and look at a bigger picture.

891

00:50:05,325 --> 00:50:07,515

And what am I going to

do with my life now?

892

00:50:08,205 --> 00:50:09,080

Because where am I heading?

893

00:50:09,915 --> 00:50:14,595

You know, and I often say at the end of

a funeral when I'm giving the closing

894

00:50:14,595 --> 00:50:19,845

words, you know, some people in the

room believe Mary's now traveling

895

00:50:19,845 --> 00:50:22,035

on beyond this life in spirit.

896

00:50:22,425 --> 00:50:26,025

Others believe with her last

breath, she was no more.

897

00:50:26,715 --> 00:50:29,175

Our time to know will come soon enough.

898

00:50:29,715 --> 00:50:29,775

Yeah.

899

00:50:29,775 --> 00:50:34,695

But in the meantime, you can believe

that all life has meaning and purpose.

900

00:50:35,565 --> 00:50:39,645

So we thank Mary for all she's

taught us, you know, taught you.

901

00:50:40,005 --> 00:50:44,055

I always refer it back to them,

you know, we thank Mary for all

902

00:50:44,055 --> 00:50:46,005

she's done for you, you know?

903

00:50:47,175 --> 00:50:48,315

And yeah.

904

00:50:50,130 --> 00:50:55,095

And it sounds like you, you briefly

referenced it there, and we, we don't

905

00:50:55,095 --> 00:50:58,275

have to go there if you don't want

to, but you, you, you mentioned that

906

00:50:58,635 --> 00:51:01,095

your home life, uh, was not ideal.

907

00:51:01,095 --> 00:51:01,185

Mm-hmm.

908

00:51:01,455 --> 00:51:03,625

Um, was that.

909

00:51:03,915 --> 00:51:07,545

Well, I suppose it's very hard

to tell given the fact that, you

910

00:51:07,545 --> 00:51:11,745

know, Karen died at the age of

four mm. And you were only three.

911

00:51:11,745 --> 00:51:12,165

Three.

912

00:51:12,165 --> 00:51:12,525

Yeah.

913

00:51:12,525 --> 00:51:14,955

So it's very difficult to tell

whether that was the catalyst

914

00:51:14,955 --> 00:51:19,305

that perhaps, you know, made,

made life more traumatic for you.

915

00:51:19,305 --> 00:51:22,545

Mm. Um, or I should ask, was it traumatic?

916

00:51:22,755 --> 00:51:28,815

What, what was it that, um,

made the, the Church of Christ

917

00:51:29,384 --> 00:51:31,005

far more appealing than, than

918

00:51:31,005 --> 00:51:32,805

what was, was it heard at home?

919

00:51:33,555 --> 00:51:38,745

Uh, well, as I said at the beginning,

grief shaped our family and my

920

00:51:38,745 --> 00:51:41,055

father drank, he was an alcoholic.

921

00:51:41,145 --> 00:51:42,285

Well, he drank more.

922

00:51:43,605 --> 00:51:46,154

My mother closed down.

923

00:51:47,205 --> 00:51:53,295

And, you know, in a sense, the

reason they got married was because

924

00:51:53,295 --> 00:51:54,675

mom was pregnant with Karen.

925

00:51:55,665 --> 00:51:57,585

We only found out this later at years.

926

00:51:57,585 --> 00:52:02,985

And sorry mom, if that upset you,

but, um, uh, she doesn't care now.

927

00:52:03,615 --> 00:52:08,055

Um, yeah, so I think in that

928

00:52:10,095 --> 00:52:12,765

my parents were AWOL really.

929

00:52:13,740 --> 00:52:20,775

So I, you know, I was an observer right

from the, the get go, uh, alright,

930

00:52:20,895 --> 00:52:28,635

this is, this is different, you know,

and yeah, and I think mom just worked.

931

00:52:29,175 --> 00:52:34,875

Uh, she was in that mode of

just getting things done.

932

00:52:35,445 --> 00:52:41,925

She had another baby, my other sister

was in a pram, you know, so kids have

933

00:52:41,925 --> 00:52:45,015

to be fed, watered, dressed, cleaned.

934

00:52:45,555 --> 00:52:46,395

She got on.

935

00:52:46,425 --> 00:52:47,805

That was her way of coping.

936

00:52:47,805 --> 00:52:49,725

Dad's was to drink.

937

00:52:50,984 --> 00:52:53,535

So there was always that trauma.

938

00:52:53,535 --> 00:52:57,975

So I suppose this is very personal,

but I suppose I grew up not

939

00:52:57,975 --> 00:52:59,805

wanting a marriage like that.

940

00:52:59,865 --> 00:52:59,955

Mm-hmm.

941

00:53:00,194 --> 00:53:04,305

Not wanting a man that drank

the money away, you know?

942

00:53:04,665 --> 00:53:10,875

Um, but of course we're all our mothers,

us girls, you know, I, I absorbed all

943

00:53:10,875 --> 00:53:16,305

that stress and grief and responsibility

trying to bring them back together.

944

00:53:16,875 --> 00:53:19,605

You know, Hey, look at me, I'm here.

945

00:53:19,665 --> 00:53:23,295

Well, you know, dad's hurting,

mom's hurting, but you know, little

946

00:53:23,295 --> 00:53:25,245

child trying to make things right.

947

00:53:25,634 --> 00:53:28,545

And I think I've tried to

be a good girl all my life.

948

00:53:28,905 --> 00:53:30,555

I've tried to fix things.

949

00:53:30,795 --> 00:53:35,205

I've tried to make people feel

better, so hence the nursing.

950

00:53:35,205 --> 00:53:36,975

Hence, you know, it's a really

951

00:53:36,975 --> 00:53:38,685

interesting that you use that term.

952

00:53:38,685 --> 00:53:39,435

Good girl.

953

00:53:39,465 --> 00:53:39,615

Mm-hmm.

954

00:53:39,855 --> 00:53:45,255

I, um, I recently attended a, a,

a play, uh, that there was a panel

955

00:53:45,255 --> 00:53:50,055

discussion afterwards and one of the,

um, the women who was on the panel

956

00:53:50,055 --> 00:53:56,805

was, um, Fabian ve and she is a,

a, a well-known scholar, uh, in and

957

00:53:56,805 --> 00:53:59,865

talks about the good girl a lot.

958

00:53:59,925 --> 00:54:00,075

Mm-hmm.

959

00:54:00,405 --> 00:54:05,025

Uh, and about how that's really

forced on women and it's generally,

960

00:54:05,355 --> 00:54:07,185

you know, from, from that Yeah.

961

00:54:07,185 --> 00:54:12,345

You know, that background of sometimes

trauma, uh, that role that we always

962

00:54:12,345 --> 00:54:16,365

feel like we have to bring things

together and fix them and be the carer.

963

00:54:16,485 --> 00:54:16,725

Yeah.

964

00:54:16,785 --> 00:54:21,945

And we end up predominantly in those roles

that are generally unpaid or lower paid

965

00:54:21,945 --> 00:54:27,105

roles that are caring for family and,

and those, and it is really interesting.

966

00:54:27,405 --> 00:54:27,555

Yeah.

967

00:54:27,585 --> 00:54:28,185

Um.

968

00:54:28,590 --> 00:54:29,220

How

969

00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:31,380

that is the perfect term for it.

970

00:54:31,380 --> 00:54:31,980

Yes.

971

00:54:32,460 --> 00:54:33,360

Being a good girl.

972

00:54:33,930 --> 00:54:34,170

Yes.

973

00:54:34,345 --> 00:54:37,680

I think I, I tried not to make waves.

974

00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:39,390

Mm. Not to upset them.

975

00:54:39,510 --> 00:54:46,320

You know, you, you, you feel all that

as a little kid with your sponge for

976

00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,630

what's going on in, in the family.

977

00:54:49,470 --> 00:54:54,120

But spiritually we would

say, that's my karma.

978

00:54:54,660 --> 00:54:56,820

That's alright.

979

00:54:56,820 --> 00:54:59,160

What are you gonna do with

those feelings, Leonie?

980

00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,310

Are you going to feel sorry

for yourself, for your life?

981

00:55:02,310 --> 00:55:03,930

Are you gonna make something of that?

982

00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:07,290

That's a whole journey.

983

00:55:07,500 --> 00:55:07,590

Mm-hmm.

984

00:55:07,830 --> 00:55:08,250

Isn't it?

985

00:55:08,850 --> 00:55:14,760

But I can say from that point in my

life, I've probably been a sad child.

986

00:55:15,150 --> 00:55:17,940

Although I love the theater

and love to make people laugh.

987

00:55:18,240 --> 00:55:20,280

And I think I'm good

at making people laugh.

988

00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:24,705

I. Also I'm in touch with that

sadness and I think that what helps

989

00:55:24,705 --> 00:55:30,194

me be a good funeral celebrant

because I can feel the person's

990

00:55:30,194 --> 00:55:32,865

sadness too and be there with them.

991

00:55:33,795 --> 00:55:35,955

But it's also, I don't take it on.

992

00:55:35,955 --> 00:55:43,214

I'm not there to, uh, take away

your grief or even heal your grief.

993

00:55:43,845 --> 00:55:45,975

I'm not there to make it better.

994

00:55:46,335 --> 00:55:50,654

I'm just there holding your

hand while this is this

995

00:55:50,654 --> 00:55:52,365

vulnerable point in your life.

996

00:55:52,785 --> 00:55:54,645

And then I let it go, you know?

997

00:55:54,765 --> 00:55:59,085

And at that time, just letting you

know there is someone who cares.

998

00:55:59,325 --> 00:56:02,895

You might think no one cares, but

there's somebody who cares for that

999

00:56:02,895 --> 00:56:05,504

moment in time on your journey.

1000

00:56:06,315 --> 00:56:06,765

Yeah.

1001

00:56:07,515 --> 00:56:13,845

So I'm being a good person now

rather than trying to be a good girl.

1002

00:56:13,995 --> 00:56:14,174

Yeah.

1003

00:56:16,089 --> 00:56:19,125

Look, that doesn't mean you

don't slip back into old habits.

1004

00:56:19,950 --> 00:56:21,270

On the spiritual journey.

1005

00:56:21,270 --> 00:56:26,850

In all I've learned, I've seen how I've

done that, been a people pleaser or tried

1006

00:56:26,850 --> 00:56:29,370

to make things better for everybody.

1007

00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:31,950

Uh, but you can turn it around.

1008

00:56:32,010 --> 00:56:36,420

Yes, I try to make things

better, but in a good way.

1009

00:56:36,420 --> 00:56:43,950

That's helpful or honest or caring or,

you know, without, at my own detriment.

1010

00:56:44,610 --> 00:56:47,070

It's interesting 'cause you keep

coming back and referring to

1011

00:56:47,070 --> 00:56:50,280

something, a word that seems to be

very strong with you is honesty.

1012

00:56:50,370 --> 00:56:50,670

Yes.

1013

00:56:50,970 --> 00:56:54,960

And, and making sure that you're being

honest in, in what's reflected Yes.

1014

00:56:55,020 --> 00:56:56,820

When we reminisce about that person.

1015

00:56:56,820 --> 00:56:56,940

Yes.

1016

00:56:57,300 --> 00:56:58,050

Who's died.

1017

00:56:58,110 --> 00:56:58,650

Yes.

1018

00:56:59,010 --> 00:57:05,820

And it's very hard, as I said

earlier to I, I always ask

1019

00:57:05,820 --> 00:57:07,680

people, please tell me the truth.

1020

00:57:08,430 --> 00:57:12,960

Everything I hear today doesn't

necessarily go in the ceremony, but it

1021

00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:15,270

helps me understand you as a family.

1022

00:57:15,270 --> 00:57:17,700

Helps me understand the

person who's passed.

1023

00:57:20,205 --> 00:57:22,875

And as I say, it's very

hard to tell the truth.

1024

00:57:22,875 --> 00:57:27,285

And some things will come, will

come out, you know, and I can tune

1025

00:57:27,285 --> 00:57:29,325

into my guide and find out, oh yeah.

1026

00:57:29,445 --> 00:57:33,075

Or feel more what's happened

for that one or this one.

1027

00:57:33,555 --> 00:57:41,985

Um, look, I think honesty, honest

honesty's a hard thing because we all

1028

00:57:41,985 --> 00:57:45,015

wear a face mask in life, don't we?

1029

00:57:45,915 --> 00:57:54,045

And yeah, it's just about being

truly yourself and being on purpose

1030

00:57:54,105 --> 00:57:59,415

and doing, extending yourself to

be the best person that you can be.

1031

00:57:59,535 --> 00:58:00,735

That's being honest.

1032

00:58:01,515 --> 00:58:07,335

Uh, and if you need to tell your

truth, you don't need to hit

1033

00:58:07,335 --> 00:58:08,595

someone over the head with it.

1034

00:58:08,685 --> 00:58:11,445

You do it with kindness, you know?

1035

00:58:11,445 --> 00:58:18,315

So in a ceremony, I may have heard

some things, but I will say, well.

1036

00:58:20,535 --> 00:58:25,365

Uh, the person, they

were wonderful at this.

1037

00:58:25,365 --> 00:58:31,544

They may have been the best landscape

artist ever, you know, but oh boy, could

1038

00:58:31,544 --> 00:58:33,854

they be difficult in such and such?

1039

00:58:34,064 --> 00:58:37,484

It's how you say it, you know,

and people will accept it.

1040

00:58:38,024 --> 00:58:39,645

Um, yeah,

1041

00:58:41,834 --> 00:58:44,984

but I, and I think, I think we've

all been to those funerals where,

1042

00:58:45,495 --> 00:58:47,984

uh, you don't recognize the person

1043

00:58:47,984 --> 00:58:48,615

that they're talking

1044

00:58:48,615 --> 00:58:48,734

about.

1045

00:58:49,995 --> 00:58:51,584

Well, that's what I say to the family.

1046

00:58:51,584 --> 00:58:54,975

It's nothing worse for a celebrant

if people are sitting there going,

1047

00:58:54,975 --> 00:58:56,895

who's that woman talking about?

1048

00:58:56,895 --> 00:58:57,075

You know?

1049

00:58:57,075 --> 00:58:57,375

Yeah.

1050

00:58:57,674 --> 00:59:02,415

You've got, that's where I say in those

simple things of talking with people

1051

00:59:02,475 --> 00:59:05,685

say, we're all shades of black and white.

1052

00:59:05,805 --> 00:59:07,035

There's no judgment here.

1053

00:59:07,424 --> 00:59:11,115

Just, you know, and the questions

asked, what did they teach you?

1054

00:59:11,834 --> 00:59:13,095

What have you taught them?

1055

00:59:13,935 --> 00:59:18,524

What would they say was,

uh, their purpose in life?

1056

00:59:19,529 --> 00:59:23,670

What, you know, what did they

love best about themselves?

1057

00:59:23,700 --> 00:59:24,120

You know?

1058

00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:25,200

Uh,

1059

00:59:28,050 --> 00:59:28,500

yeah.

1060

00:59:28,950 --> 00:59:32,610

What do you think their, if

they look back on their life,

1061

00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:34,470

what would they have regrets?

1062

00:59:34,830 --> 00:59:35,190

You know?

1063

00:59:35,250 --> 00:59:38,670

So I get people to just go a

little bit deeper each time.

1064

00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:39,360

Oh.

1065

00:59:39,540 --> 00:59:42,240

So I feel they're getting a

bit of a counseling session.

1066

00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:42,300

Yeah.

1067

00:59:42,330 --> 00:59:47,040

Without kind of knowing it, but

in that, um, they feel in a safe

1068

00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:48,900

place and then they'll share things.

1069

00:59:48,900 --> 00:59:52,050

And of course I honor, you

know, some people say, well,

1070

00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:54,509

you know, Mary was dreadful.

1071

00:59:54,509 --> 00:59:56,370

You know, she was what?

1072

00:59:56,730 --> 00:59:58,380

But don't say that in the ceremony.

1073

00:59:58,380 --> 01:00:01,140

Leonie, I have to honor that.

1074

01:00:01,170 --> 01:00:04,410

I'm not always in the position I'm of.

1075

01:00:04,815 --> 01:00:09,585

You know, it's not up to me to blurt

out everything about Mary, but to

1076

01:00:09,585 --> 01:00:13,515

create the space where people can

say from their heart and always

1077

01:00:13,515 --> 01:00:14,925

say, it's the things from the heart.

1078

01:00:14,925 --> 01:00:17,205

People want to hear not great things.

1079

01:00:17,205 --> 01:00:21,525

Mary went to school there and then she did

university there, and then she did that.

1080

01:00:21,525 --> 01:00:21,675

There.

1081

01:00:21,675 --> 01:00:28,095

We can all have a list of things we did,

but what have they, what's their legacy?

1082

01:00:28,095 --> 01:00:29,385

What have they taught you?

1083

01:00:30,075 --> 01:00:31,935

How did they love enough?

1084

01:00:32,595 --> 01:00:35,325

Did they, did they do enough?

1085

01:00:35,385 --> 01:00:39,975

Did they, would they feel

satisfied with things now?

1086

01:00:40,665 --> 01:00:41,085

So,

1087

01:00:41,085 --> 01:00:41,265

yeah.

1088

01:00:41,265 --> 01:00:43,365

And have you had seen, uh, as.

1089

01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:47,670

We see more encouragement

for end of life planning.

1090

01:00:47,675 --> 01:00:47,755

Mm-hmm.

1091

01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:52,560

And people perhaps, uh, with voluntary

assisted dying, uh, and, uh, you

1092

01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:56,640

know, the palliative process as well

that we, we have available to us.

1093

01:00:56,760 --> 01:01:02,310

It encourages people to think about

what they want said at their funeral,

1094

01:01:02,550 --> 01:01:06,660

uh, perhaps what they don't want,

send what music they'd like to play.

1095

01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:09,540

Is that helpful if people do that for you?

1096

01:01:09,540 --> 01:01:10,920

In, in preparation?

1097

01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:11,580

Yeah.

1098

01:01:11,580 --> 01:01:13,110

Have you seen an increase in that?

1099

01:01:13,410 --> 01:01:19,170

Um, I think because I'm from the baby

boom in my generation, people are

1100

01:01:19,620 --> 01:01:21,930

thinking about their funerals more.

1101

01:01:22,020 --> 01:01:27,300

And any opportunity I get is

that I like to encourage people,

1102

01:01:27,330 --> 01:01:30,900

even if it's just writing down,

you wanna be buried or cremated.

1103

01:01:31,350 --> 01:01:33,900

Mm. And if where you want to

be buried, is that important?

1104

01:01:33,900 --> 01:01:38,520

Where you're buried, is there a grave

you want to be near or in, you know,

1105

01:01:39,390 --> 01:01:41,760

so family have that question answered.

1106

01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:42,300

Yeah.

1107

01:01:42,415 --> 01:01:42,635

Um.

1108

01:01:44,334 --> 01:01:49,500

Uh, I think what I say to

people is, make a cup of tea.

1109

01:01:50,700 --> 01:01:56,459

Get a pad and paper, and imagine

yourself, if you can, lying in that

1110

01:01:56,459 --> 01:02:02,160

coffin and who's standing around you

and what would you want them to know

1111

01:02:02,490 --> 01:02:04,169

that would help ease their tears?

1112

01:02:05,069 --> 01:02:11,250

What do you, what can you do as

an act of love for those people?

1113

01:02:11,759 --> 01:02:16,109

So, 'cause if you think about parent,

a parent dying and there's, you

1114

01:02:16,109 --> 01:02:20,580

know, five siblings, one of them

will say they were the favorite.

1115

01:02:20,729 --> 01:02:24,029

You know, so they have a better say

in what should happen, you know?

1116

01:02:24,750 --> 01:02:30,689

Um, all, all those, all those

things rise up in people.

1117

01:02:31,154 --> 01:02:32,924

So that's why it's good

to have a will, isn't it?

1118

01:02:33,075 --> 01:02:36,674

It's good to have a will and appoint

an executor because That's right.

1119

01:02:36,674 --> 01:02:38,174

Because they're the ones

that can have the saying.

1120

01:02:38,174 --> 01:02:38,745

That's right.

1121

01:02:39,615 --> 01:02:44,685

But you know, and write down if

there's music you like and poetry

1122

01:02:44,685 --> 01:02:50,384

or whatever, just that gives a PA

person an insight into what's needed,

1123

01:02:50,685 --> 01:02:54,615

what's your, you know, favorite

flower, you know, that sort of thing.

1124

01:02:54,975 --> 01:02:59,745

So even, it doesn't have to be

complicated, but just a few things and put

1125

01:02:59,745 --> 01:03:04,755

the that with your will and let someone

know where your important papers are.

1126

01:03:05,235 --> 01:03:05,325

Mm-hmm.

1127

01:03:05,325 --> 01:03:05,415

Yeah.

1128

01:03:05,415 --> 01:03:05,685

That's,

1129

01:03:05,685 --> 01:03:07,065

that's the other key, isn't it?

1130

01:03:07,065 --> 01:03:07,125

Yeah.

1131

01:03:07,215 --> 01:03:07,395

Yeah.

1132

01:03:07,815 --> 01:03:08,190

That's it.

1133

01:03:09,540 --> 01:03:09,830

Yeah.

1134

01:03:09,930 --> 01:03:12,645

So you're all good with that,

aren't you with your stuff?

1135

01:03:12,674 --> 01:03:13,485

I am.

1136

01:03:13,485 --> 01:03:13,995

I am.

1137

01:03:13,995 --> 01:03:17,775

Well, you know, I think we're all in our

own way trying to encourage that Yes.

1138

01:03:17,805 --> 01:03:19,904

Whatever form or, or shape we can.

1139

01:03:19,995 --> 01:03:20,535

Um, yes.

1140

01:03:20,654 --> 01:03:24,944

I think it's an act of responsibility

for self and an act of love.

1141

01:03:25,305 --> 01:03:25,665

Yeah.

1142

01:03:25,694 --> 01:03:27,165

But I also like to say.

1143

01:03:28,125 --> 01:03:30,975

The funeral is for the people left behind.

1144

01:03:31,964 --> 01:03:34,785

So how do you wanna honor your loved one?

1145

01:03:34,785 --> 01:03:36,404

How do you wanna celebrate them?

1146

01:03:36,404 --> 01:03:42,615

How do you want to, uh, um, encourage

people to learn from their story?

1147

01:03:42,615 --> 01:03:43,575

What do you want to know?

1148

01:03:44,325 --> 01:03:48,585

Because the person who died is actually

beyond all the funeral stuff, really.

1149

01:03:49,245 --> 01:03:50,714

They're onto the next bit.

1150

01:03:51,015 --> 01:03:54,674

You know, it's not a bit of

roses in the spiritual world.

1151

01:03:55,275 --> 01:03:58,095

It's a place of learning

like it is on earth.

1152

01:03:58,634 --> 01:04:02,025

You don't say, oh, rest in peace.

1153

01:04:02,025 --> 01:04:03,315

There's not peace.

1154

01:04:04,335 --> 01:04:07,395

You know, there's only peace if you

feel you fulfilled your purpose,

1155

01:04:07,395 --> 01:04:09,555

or, uh, there's peace in that.

1156

01:04:09,555 --> 01:04:11,205

But then there's more learning, alright?

1157

01:04:11,714 --> 01:04:15,075

It's not, you go up there and

just have a nice time and play

1158

01:04:15,075 --> 01:04:16,995

in a beautiful garden in heaven.

1159

01:04:16,995 --> 01:04:17,295

You know?

1160

01:04:17,685 --> 01:04:18,615

It's not like that.

1161

01:04:19,305 --> 01:04:22,125

It's What do you, what do

you hope it would be for you?

1162

01:04:23,745 --> 01:04:24,255

Well.

1163

01:04:25,935 --> 01:04:32,205

Uh, what we're taught, uh, is that we'll

make our way up there quickly or slowly.

1164

01:04:35,055 --> 01:04:40,275

Um, there's a party waiting for us of

all the loved ones, the people that have

1165

01:04:40,275 --> 01:04:44,595

helped us, our ancestors, but only love.

1166

01:04:44,775 --> 01:04:48,045

There's no one there that you would

never want at your best party.

1167

01:04:48,345 --> 01:04:48,615

Yes.

1168

01:04:49,275 --> 01:04:55,845

And then you, uh, let's put it simply, you

go into a room and watch a big television

1169

01:04:55,845 --> 01:04:58,125

screen and your life played out for you.

1170

01:04:58,995 --> 01:05:04,065

And you will feel every moment that

you've hurt someone or love someone,

1171

01:05:04,215 --> 01:05:10,335

you'll feel every, uh, uh, result

of any action that you've taken.

1172

01:05:11,745 --> 01:05:17,235

You'll see whether you've done

the best you can do or not.

1173

01:05:17,805 --> 01:05:21,855

And in those moments, you

make a vowed yourself.

1174

01:05:21,945 --> 01:05:23,445

I've gotta go back and fix that.

1175

01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:26,190

I've got to Yeah.

1176

01:05:26,370 --> 01:05:27,570

Do better next time.

1177

01:05:28,500 --> 01:05:32,400

And then we start the learning up there.

1178

01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:34,770

So it's like going back

to kindergarten again.

1179

01:05:35,370 --> 01:05:35,940

Okay.

1180

01:05:36,060 --> 01:05:45,120

So, uh, Leonie needs to learn more

about honesty, so we'll teach her

1181

01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:50,130

more so when she goes back next time,

she'll be the star pupil in honesty.

1182

01:05:50,130 --> 01:05:50,490

You know?

1183

01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:53,190

So that's what I'm learning in this life.

1184

01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:56,160

And so there's a cycle of reincarnation.

1185

01:05:56,250 --> 01:05:56,700

Yes.

1186

01:05:56,700 --> 01:05:57,180

Learning.

1187

01:05:57,180 --> 01:06:01,230

And then, so it sounds, it sounds

like the model is very similar to

1188

01:06:02,130 --> 01:06:07,530

perhaps a Christian faith where there's

some sort of life in review process.

1189

01:06:07,530 --> 01:06:07,890

Yes.

1190

01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:10,050

Then there's a learning process.

1191

01:06:10,050 --> 01:06:10,140

Yes.

1192

01:06:10,140 --> 01:06:12,510

Then is a reincarnation process.

1193

01:06:12,510 --> 01:06:12,600

Yes.

1194

01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:16,440

So you can then come

back to a life on earth.

1195

01:06:16,650 --> 01:06:16,950

Yeah.

1196

01:06:17,130 --> 01:06:17,640

To make

1197

01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:18,420

amends.

1198

01:06:18,420 --> 01:06:19,950

To make amends, yes.

1199

01:06:19,950 --> 01:06:23,370

To do better than you did before to, um.

1200

01:06:24,765 --> 01:06:26,205

You know, grow.

1201

01:06:27,045 --> 01:06:28,845

We are meant to grow each time.

1202

01:06:29,175 --> 01:06:29,535

Yeah.

1203

01:06:29,625 --> 01:06:32,385

To be truly what our spirit is.

1204

01:06:32,415 --> 01:06:32,835

Yeah.

1205

01:06:33,735 --> 01:06:36,135

So, yeah.

1206

01:06:36,495 --> 01:06:38,505

The space between What do I want?

1207

01:06:38,565 --> 01:06:44,835

Well, I think we can create, I

think we're also creative up there.

1208

01:06:45,885 --> 01:06:52,305

So I've always wanted a little white

picket fence with a rose arbor, you know,

1209

01:06:54,555 --> 01:06:57,075

lots of animals, of beautiful flowers.

1210

01:06:57,075 --> 01:07:00,165

So I'm hoping they'll let me

live in something like that.

1211

01:07:00,345 --> 01:07:01,010

Oh, fantastic.

1212

01:07:01,245 --> 01:07:04,245

And go off to, to

learning school, you know?

1213

01:07:04,245 --> 01:07:04,425

Yeah.

1214

01:07:04,635 --> 01:07:10,545

Um, but yeah, we don't have to carry

these ailing bodies around anymore.

1215

01:07:10,545 --> 01:07:12,015

We are more free that way.

1216

01:07:12,795 --> 01:07:15,945

Um, but we still, yeah.

1217

01:07:15,945 --> 01:07:19,095

We still have to learn and grow.

1218

01:07:19,455 --> 01:07:19,845

Yeah.

1219

01:07:20,270 --> 01:07:20,510

And, and I.

1220

01:07:22,860 --> 01:07:25,800

From all I'm taught, there's

levels in that, you know?

1221

01:07:26,550 --> 01:07:31,650

And some people just dig in and

don't wanna grow and don't want to

1222

01:07:31,650 --> 01:07:34,110

be better people and contribute.

1223

01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:38,850

So they've got some tough learning up

there, you know, so they've gotta go to

1224

01:07:38,850 --> 01:07:40,500

a bit of a different school, you know?

1225

01:07:40,830 --> 01:07:41,520

So, yeah.

1226

01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:41,700

Yeah.

1227

01:07:42,420 --> 01:07:47,970

Everyone, everyone's spirit

is dealt with accordingly.

1228

01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:53,460

Leonie, I can't thank you

enough for our chat today.

1229

01:07:53,460 --> 01:07:58,980

It's been very insightful and, and

you know it, when you talk about

1230

01:07:58,980 --> 01:08:00,610

your spiritual guide, it's mm-hmm.

1231

01:08:00,875 --> 01:08:04,620

It's something that people refer

to as their conscience or an angel

1232

01:08:04,620 --> 01:08:07,950

on their shoulder, or there's

many different versions of what

1233

01:08:08,070 --> 01:08:09,420

we have been talking through Yes.

1234

01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:10,950

Today.

1235

01:08:10,950 --> 01:08:13,620

And I, I really appreciate

you sharing You're welcome.

1236

01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:16,740

Your spiritual journey with us

and, and what it means to you.

1237

01:08:16,740 --> 01:08:16,800

Yeah.

1238

01:08:17,005 --> 01:08:18,165

Thank you, Catherine.

1239

01:08:19,229 --> 01:08:21,660

It'd be interesting to

see what I came out with.

1240

01:08:24,509 --> 01:08:25,709

Uh, hear yourself back.

1241

01:08:25,709 --> 01:08:29,879

You go, oh yeah, uh, I forgot to say this.

1242

01:08:29,879 --> 01:08:31,319

Or, uh,

1243

01:08:31,649 --> 01:08:35,609

is there anything that you feel like

you wanna check your notes and make sure

1244

01:08:35,609 --> 01:08:37,349

we've covered off on everything you wanted

1245

01:08:37,589 --> 01:08:37,830

to?

1246

01:08:37,830 --> 01:08:38,160

And one,

1247

01:08:43,649 --> 01:08:45,479

from my perspective, I

thought it was great.

1248

01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:45,779

Was it?

1249

01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:46,799

Yeah, I loved it.

1250

01:08:47,370 --> 01:08:47,969

Absolutely

1251

01:08:47,969 --> 01:08:48,419

loved it.

1252

01:08:48,419 --> 01:08:49,229

All right.

1253

01:08:49,290 --> 01:08:51,779

Um, oh, it's just about truth.

1254

01:08:51,779 --> 01:08:55,500

You know, the Irish have a saying,

the truth comes out at the wake

1255

01:08:55,500 --> 01:08:56,759

when the whiskey's flowing.

1256

01:08:57,179 --> 01:09:01,559

You know, so often that's why people sit

in the funerals and go, you know, and I

1257

01:09:01,559 --> 01:09:07,379

think there's a feeling that most people

feel they have to endure a funeral.

1258

01:09:08,099 --> 01:09:15,029

There's a perception that they're gloomy,

sad, dark, you know, um, and irrelevant.

1259

01:09:15,464 --> 01:09:20,354

Because say a, a priest or a minister

has, has to go by the church protocols

1260

01:09:20,354 --> 01:09:24,674

or the written service, and then they

just put in a deceased person's name.

1261

01:09:24,674 --> 01:09:24,974

You know?

1262

01:09:25,694 --> 01:09:30,584

So that can feel entirely irrelevant,

whereas a celebrant can personalize a

1263

01:09:30,584 --> 01:09:36,615

ceremony, dig deeper and be more creative.

1264

01:09:37,365 --> 01:09:37,604

Yeah.

1265

01:09:37,604 --> 01:09:38,109

So I think,

1266

01:09:38,290 --> 01:09:42,524

and I really like when you were

talking about how you spend time

1267

01:09:42,524 --> 01:09:46,724

with the families to, you know,

simple things like the jellybean jar.

1268

01:09:47,354 --> 01:09:47,504

Yes.

1269

01:09:47,504 --> 01:09:51,254

You know, like that is

a way to really honor someone

1270

01:09:51,584 --> 01:09:54,044

and create that ritual Yes.

1271

01:09:54,075 --> 01:09:56,054

Uh, of what that person meant.

1272

01:09:56,054 --> 01:09:58,844

So it isn't just a name that's been added

to an order of service That's right.

1273

01:09:58,905 --> 01:10:00,134

Over the last person's

1274

01:10:00,134 --> 01:10:00,464

name.

1275

01:10:00,644 --> 01:10:01,004

Yeah.

1276

01:10:01,019 --> 01:10:01,785

Yeah, that's right.

1277

01:10:02,594 --> 01:10:05,565

Uh, and little touches too, like, um,

1278

01:10:09,525 --> 01:10:14,655

do we want, uh, uh, you know,

a basket of roses there?

1279

01:10:15,389 --> 01:10:19,830

So that before we close the

curtains, everyone in the room

1280

01:10:19,860 --> 01:10:23,580

if they like, can come and place

a rose, because Mary grew roses.

1281

01:10:23,580 --> 01:10:30,570

Her rose garden was magnificent, you

know, and everyone can do something,

1282

01:10:30,570 --> 01:10:34,080

I feel, rather than just coming

to a funeral and sitting there.

1283

01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:42,120

If people do something ritualistic like

that, then they're saying, my spirit

1284

01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:46,800

recognize yours, you know, and they place

a rose on the coffin and some people

1285

01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:50,760

will do it quickly and walk away and a

tears down the running down their face.

1286

01:10:51,059 --> 01:10:55,740

Or some people will take that moment

and kiss the coffin as well and place

1287

01:10:55,740 --> 01:11:02,370

the rose on it, or, um, or they'll

just spend a quiet moment there.

1288

01:11:02,429 --> 01:11:08,429

Or, you know, grandma and granddaughter

might walk up together and, you know, um,

1289

01:11:08,580 --> 01:11:11,490

and place a rose, you know, so you see.

1290

01:11:12,615 --> 01:11:17,865

Those sort of things that make it,

uh, a beautiful moment, really.

1291

01:11:18,195 --> 01:11:18,585

Yeah.

1292

01:11:19,455 --> 01:11:21,705

And you just mentioned there

the closing of the curtain.

1293

01:11:21,705 --> 01:11:21,765

Yeah.

1294

01:11:21,765 --> 01:11:24,405

So someone who is completely

unfamiliar and may never have

1295

01:11:24,405 --> 01:11:25,815

attended a funeral before.

1296

01:11:26,235 --> 01:11:26,475

Yeah.

1297

01:11:26,475 --> 01:11:27,975

They may be thinking What curtains?

1298

01:11:29,925 --> 01:11:30,735

Oh yeah, sorry.

1299

01:11:31,545 --> 01:11:36,135

Um, 'cause I still work mainly

in the traditional funeral

1300

01:11:36,135 --> 01:11:38,055

chapels or at the crematorium.

1301

01:11:38,715 --> 01:11:44,085

And, um, in the funeral chapels, there's

often a curtain closes as the last songs

1302

01:11:44,085 --> 01:11:46,605

played, the final words have been said.

1303

01:11:47,055 --> 01:11:51,945

The curtain just closes, gently

finish, blow out the candle.

1304

01:11:52,695 --> 01:11:57,645

Now it's time to warm yourself up

on the inside after the emotional

1305

01:11:57,975 --> 01:12:00,015

moments, you know, beforehand.

1306

01:12:00,045 --> 01:12:05,355

And so that's why we have a, a wake,

you know, uh, people in a less formal

1307

01:12:05,355 --> 01:12:07,305

situation, they can let go a bit.

1308

01:12:08,325 --> 01:12:08,715

Um.

1309

01:12:09,195 --> 01:12:09,585

Yes.

1310

01:12:09,585 --> 01:12:13,935

Uh, they've at Bunong, uh, I dunno

if you've been out there, Catherine.

1311

01:12:13,995 --> 01:12:15,345

They've got a Yes.

1312

01:12:15,675 --> 01:12:16,965

They don't have a curtain.

1313

01:12:16,995 --> 01:12:20,895

They, the coffin lowers and a

beautiful glass screen comes up

1314

01:12:20,895 --> 01:12:23,145

and, you know, that's, that's nice.

1315

01:12:23,145 --> 01:12:27,525

Some people don't want any

lowering or any curtains closing.

1316

01:12:28,125 --> 01:12:33,465

They just want to leave the coffin there

and people can come even while they're

1317

01:12:33,465 --> 01:12:37,965

having a cup of tea, come in and spend

a few quiet moments with the person.

1318

01:12:38,205 --> 01:12:38,835

That's nice.

1319

01:12:38,850 --> 01:12:39,250

I like that.

1320

01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:39,570

Yeah.

1321

01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:40,010

Nice.

1322

01:12:40,480 --> 01:12:40,770

Yeah.

1323

01:12:40,770 --> 01:12:40,780

Nice.

1324

01:12:41,445 --> 01:12:46,665

And you were just mentioning also

prior to this, um, about the Irish

1325

01:12:46,665 --> 01:12:48,105

and what they, about the Wakes.

1326

01:12:48,180 --> 01:12:48,530

Wakes.

1327

01:12:48,830 --> 01:12:49,050

Yes.

1328

01:12:49,055 --> 01:12:49,125

Yes.

1329

01:12:49,575 --> 01:12:50,805

Can you just tell us that again?

1330

01:12:51,195 --> 01:12:51,765

Alright.

1331

01:12:51,765 --> 01:12:57,105

So as I was talking about, it's very hard

to tell the truth, you know, be honest.

1332

01:12:57,105 --> 01:13:01,185

And the Irish, the Irish say,

you know, the truth comes out at

1333

01:13:01,185 --> 01:13:02,805

the wake when the whiskey flows.

1334

01:13:02,805 --> 01:13:06,735

That's when you really know who the

person was and how they affected you.

1335

01:13:07,335 --> 01:13:07,695

Um.

1336

01:13:09,099 --> 01:13:10,990

Yeah, that's, that was all in there.

1337

01:13:11,410 --> 01:13:12,190

So, yeah.

1338

01:13:12,555 --> 01:13:21,434

But see, in organizing funerals now,

uh, we have this perception, the

1339

01:13:21,434 --> 01:13:23,655

funeral directors have to do everything.

1340

01:13:23,835 --> 01:13:26,445

They don't, they're there

to help and guide you.

1341

01:13:28,035 --> 01:13:32,985

We can go back to the old ways of

having the person in your home, your

1342

01:13:32,985 --> 01:13:37,905

loved one in your home, and people can

come and visit and say goodbye there.

1343

01:13:38,474 --> 01:13:40,035

Very much the Irish Way, isn't it?

1344

01:13:40,035 --> 01:13:40,965

The Irish Way.

1345

01:13:40,965 --> 01:13:41,325

Yeah.

1346

01:13:41,325 --> 01:13:41,335

Yeah.

1347

01:13:41,335 --> 01:13:41,985

Yes.

1348

01:13:42,285 --> 01:13:49,425

Um, and sit around and sit around and talk

about the person, you know, just Yeah.

1349

01:13:49,605 --> 01:13:54,255

What they meant to you, or say, oh, just

sit quietly or, and think about your

1350

01:13:54,255 --> 01:13:56,835

life and your life in relation to theirs.

1351

01:13:57,495 --> 01:13:57,915

Yeah.

1352

01:13:58,005 --> 01:14:04,095

So we can, we can, I've conducted funerals

and gardens, which has been nice when

1353

01:14:04,095 --> 01:14:06,585

the person, the coffin's been there.

1354

01:14:06,990 --> 01:14:07,530

Um,

1355

01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:11,190

and you mentioned the ute earlier

too, like that, that's certainly

1356

01:14:11,190 --> 01:14:15,210

not a traditional way in which to

actually have, have the body, you know?

1357

01:14:15,780 --> 01:14:16,590

Yeah, yeah,

1358

01:14:16,590 --> 01:14:16,600

yeah.

1359

01:14:16,980 --> 01:14:18,360

Um, driven away.

1360

01:14:18,389 --> 01:14:18,985

Yeah, that's right.

1361

01:14:19,530 --> 01:14:23,400

Um, uh, I think, uh,

1362

01:14:25,410 --> 01:14:31,260

we've, we've generally, I think

simplicity has come back more.

1363

01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:35,460

As I said, the baby boomer generation,

we don't want the huge, big, heavy

1364

01:14:35,460 --> 01:14:37,769

headstones with lots of words.

1365

01:14:38,190 --> 01:14:46,800

We don't want, um, you know, heavy wooden

caskets and they're cultural things still.

1366

01:14:47,670 --> 01:14:55,950

But for instance, I've chosen a natural

burial, so there's no plaque, no nothing.

1367

01:14:55,950 --> 01:15:00,570

It's a, you know, maybe a

tree planted, but I want much.

1368

01:15:00,570 --> 01:15:02,040

And have you chosen a, a place

1369

01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:03,000

for the natural burial?

1370

01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:03,720

Yes.

1371

01:15:05,375 --> 01:15:05,595

And.

1372

01:15:06,060 --> 01:15:11,940

Uh, you know, um, then I want my family

and friends to carry me to the grave.

1373

01:15:12,480 --> 01:15:15,570

I want them to shovel the dirt in.

1374

01:15:15,690 --> 01:15:18,930

I want them to stand around and say

what they loved about me and what

1375

01:15:18,930 --> 01:15:20,820

they found hard to love about me.

1376

01:15:21,270 --> 01:15:23,070

I want lots of flowers.

1377

01:15:23,430 --> 01:15:25,170

I want some live music.

1378

01:15:25,710 --> 01:15:26,820

Um, yeah.

1379

01:15:27,450 --> 01:15:34,200

And, uh, yeah, and, and I believe,

I, I love doing graveside ceremonies

1380

01:15:34,650 --> 01:15:36,600

because it makes it so real.

1381

01:15:37,440 --> 01:15:39,270

You know, the span of life.

1382

01:15:39,270 --> 01:15:39,870

So real.

1383

01:15:39,870 --> 01:15:41,770

Here's all these headstones around you.

1384

01:15:42,870 --> 01:15:44,610

There's nature trees.

1385

01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:49,800

You usually hear birds at a

bagpipe playing or a violin,

1386

01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:51,510

and everyone feels it.

1387

01:15:51,660 --> 01:15:52,080

Yes.

1388

01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:52,230

The

1389

01:15:52,230 --> 01:15:55,710

bagpipes, I've, that's a, that's

a family thing with us, right?

1390

01:15:55,710 --> 01:15:57,510

And, and yes, they're very moving.

1391

01:15:57,540 --> 01:15:59,010

Yes, it moves you.

1392

01:15:59,010 --> 01:16:00,840

And we had them at my grand

grandfather's funeral.

1393

01:16:00,930 --> 01:16:02,220

That was at home actually, right.

1394

01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:03,390

And, yeah.

1395

01:16:04,425 --> 01:16:06,915

Every time I hear the bagpipes

now, it still gets me going.

1396

01:16:06,945 --> 01:16:07,335

You know?

1397

01:16:07,335 --> 01:16:07,695

Yes.

1398

01:16:07,755 --> 01:16:08,265

Yeah.

1399

01:16:08,265 --> 01:16:10,965

And it's about feeling.

1400

01:16:11,025 --> 01:16:11,415

Yeah.

1401

01:16:11,955 --> 01:16:15,255

And that's what my journey's been on.

1402

01:16:15,795 --> 01:16:20,895

As I said, I had lots of knowledge

up here, but to, to feel if we feel,

1403

01:16:22,185 --> 01:16:28,425

uh, yeah, we're in touch with

ourselves, in touch with our spirit.

1404

01:16:28,755 --> 01:16:29,235

Mm-hmm.

1405

01:16:29,355 --> 01:16:35,235

And I think those things out in nature

like that, and the bagpipes playing,

1406

01:16:35,235 --> 01:16:41,330

or a violin, you know, a learned violin

with the, or somebody singing mm-hmm.

1407

01:16:41,470 --> 01:16:46,965

You know, out there, you can't

help but be in touch with your

1408

01:16:46,965 --> 01:16:48,765

feelings in those moments.

1409

01:16:48,765 --> 01:16:51,675

So, whereas we are in a chapel and Yeah.

1410

01:16:51,795 --> 01:16:52,095

Yeah.

1411

01:16:52,095 --> 01:16:54,120

It's a very different feeling,

isn't It's a very different feeling.

1412

01:16:54,345 --> 01:16:54,825

Yeah.

1413

01:16:54,825 --> 01:16:54,835

Yeah.

1414

01:16:54,915 --> 01:17:03,195

Um, I, I love sometimes to tell

a story that in, um, ancient, uh.

1415

01:17:04,170 --> 01:17:06,180

Oh God, the words just gone outta my mind.

1416

01:17:07,350 --> 01:17:11,940

But the women, uh, some aboriginal

ceremonies like this, the women

1417

01:17:11,940 --> 01:17:17,370

came together and they weep and

wail when there's been a death.

1418

01:17:18,060 --> 01:17:21,180

They weep and wail, not just

for that death, but for all

1419

01:17:21,180 --> 01:17:22,890

the sorrow in the world.

1420

01:17:23,580 --> 01:17:27,035

Um, oh, where, okay.

1421

01:17:27,095 --> 01:17:32,910

Is awful for Karen, Catherine, this

word, but they, they, the ceremony was

1422

01:17:32,970 --> 01:17:37,350

that they wep and, and, and the myth

was that's how the River Nile was

1423

01:17:37,350 --> 01:17:40,290

created from their tears, you know?

1424

01:17:40,290 --> 01:17:42,235

So I've said Egypt.

1425

01:17:42,705 --> 01:17:44,010

Yeah, the ancient Egypt.

1426

01:17:44,010 --> 01:17:45,510

It wasn't the ancient Egyptians.

1427

01:17:45,510 --> 01:17:46,560

It was, uh oh.

1428

01:17:46,565 --> 01:17:49,560

They were, oh, just not coming to me.

1429

01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:50,550

Doesn't matter.

1430

01:17:50,850 --> 01:17:55,140

But the, as I say, aboriginal women

do that and they'll weep and wa and

1431

01:17:55,140 --> 01:17:58,110

they get their, their feelings out.

1432

01:17:59,309 --> 01:18:03,840

And I think sometimes when I'm in

a chapel and everyone's sitting

1433

01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:06,930

there, you know, and all subdued.

1434

01:18:06,930 --> 01:18:06,990

Yeah.

1435

01:18:07,440 --> 01:18:13,050

And I think, here's this beautiful young

person whose life has been shortened.

1436

01:18:14,490 --> 01:18:18,690

We all, you know, let's all

weep and wail and get it out.

1437

01:18:18,690 --> 01:18:21,480

You know, let's all stand

around and hold each other.

1438

01:18:21,870 --> 01:18:22,290

Because I,

1439

01:18:22,380 --> 01:18:26,639

I find like when you're talking

about this, actually, I, I, I know

1440

01:18:26,639 --> 01:18:29,040

myself like I stifle my sobbing.

1441

01:18:29,130 --> 01:18:29,550

Yes.

1442

01:18:29,580 --> 01:18:31,320

When you're in that scenario.

1443

01:18:31,470 --> 01:18:31,559

Yes.

1444

01:18:31,590 --> 01:18:33,240

Because you just don't want to be.

1445

01:18:33,540 --> 01:18:37,950

You know, offensive or, or you know, it,

it's just sort of like, oh, you know,

1446

01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:39,120

it better not be too, too over the top.

1447

01:18:40,144 --> 01:18:40,395

Too over the top.

1448

01:18:40,395 --> 01:18:43,170

But if, if there is not a place to do it.

1449

01:18:43,260 --> 01:18:43,380

Yeah.

1450

01:18:43,380 --> 01:18:45,059

Like that is the place to do it.

1451

01:18:45,065 --> 01:18:45,485

Yeah, absolutely.

1452

01:18:45,594 --> 01:18:49,500

It's so, it's so weird that we do

feel that we have to restrain our

1453

01:18:49,500 --> 01:18:53,160

emotions when it's, it's one of the

rawest things we, and the most natural

1454

01:18:53,160 --> 01:18:54,990

things we can do and experience.

1455

01:18:54,990 --> 01:18:55,920

Absolutely.

1456

01:18:56,070 --> 01:18:56,849

Absolutely.

1457

01:18:57,420 --> 01:19:03,120

Um, yes, I think, I wonder what

it'd be like to, to do that.

1458

01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:09,630

And I, I think the, um, the American

Indian culture, they had a thing that

1459

01:19:09,630 --> 01:19:16,920

when somebody died, a tradition, not

a thing, a tradition where they, each

1460

01:19:16,920 --> 01:19:25,019

person, they sat in a circle and each

person could talk about what that person

1461

01:19:25,019 --> 01:19:31,200

meant and what belief systems they held

that made them act the way they did.

1462

01:19:31,260 --> 01:19:32,880

And, and it was that.

1463

01:19:33,615 --> 01:19:39,105

In being truthful and in talking about

those things, the next generation learns.

1464

01:19:39,765 --> 01:19:41,445

So that's evolution, you know?

1465

01:19:41,450 --> 01:19:41,660

Mm-hmm.

1466

01:19:41,745 --> 01:19:48,285

So, okay, that Warrior did this

and that wasn't so good because it

1467

01:19:48,285 --> 01:19:50,685

went against what the chief wanted.

1468

01:19:50,685 --> 01:19:51,255

You know?

1469

01:19:51,375 --> 01:19:53,355

So how can I learn from that?

1470

01:19:53,355 --> 01:19:53,685

You know?

1471

01:19:53,685 --> 01:19:53,895

And

1472

01:19:53,895 --> 01:19:56,955

so important in those

cultures where oral history

1473

01:19:56,955 --> 01:19:57,375

Yes.

1474

01:19:57,435 --> 01:20:00,885

Is the only way in which you

can actually pass down those

1475

01:20:00,885 --> 01:20:02,445

teachings to another generation.

1476

01:20:03,255 --> 01:20:03,735

Yeah.

1477

01:20:03,735 --> 01:20:03,795

Yeah.

1478

01:20:04,365 --> 01:20:07,635

I think, I think we're

learning some things.

1479

01:20:07,635 --> 01:20:08,235

We are not.

1480

01:20:08,235 --> 01:20:09,795

That's the way of things, isn't it?

1481

01:20:10,005 --> 01:20:10,740

It really is.

1482

01:20:10,930 --> 01:20:11,220

Yeah.

1483

01:20:11,805 --> 01:20:14,535

And they'll be doing, will they

be doing funerals differently

1484

01:20:14,535 --> 01:20:16,005

in another 10 years time?

1485

01:20:16,005 --> 01:20:16,545

I wonder.

1486

01:20:16,965 --> 01:20:17,535

I don't know.

1487

01:20:17,625 --> 01:20:17,955

Yeah.

1488

01:20:17,955 --> 01:20:23,535

It's, it's one of those things, it's,

it's like anything, um, it has been

1489

01:20:23,535 --> 01:20:28,185

happening for eons and it will continue to

happen long and after you and I are gone.

1490

01:20:28,185 --> 01:20:29,020

Yes, that's right.

1491

01:20:29,120 --> 01:20:30,180

And yet some things.

1492

01:20:31,245 --> 01:20:32,900

Always remain the same about it.

1493

01:20:32,900 --> 01:20:33,675

Same, exactly.

1494

01:20:33,675 --> 01:20:33,735

Yeah.

1495

01:20:34,335 --> 01:20:38,144

I'd like to just say one thing

to pe There is a perception.

1496

01:20:39,465 --> 01:20:43,394

I, I said before, funeral directors

are there to help you and guide you.

1497

01:20:43,514 --> 01:20:45,285

You can do a lot of the work yourself.

1498

01:20:45,585 --> 01:20:49,844

Press chat, GPT, it'll tell you exactly

what you need to do for a funeral.

1499

01:20:50,535 --> 01:20:54,855

But some people think, yeah, funeral

directors are there just to rip us off.

1500

01:20:56,264 --> 01:20:59,955

Look, they're companies and they have

overheads and they're gonna have to pay

1501

01:20:59,955 --> 01:21:03,014

staff, and those staff need their jobs.

1502

01:21:04,545 --> 01:21:12,344

But 99% of the funeral directors I deal

with, they're caring, compassionate

1503

01:21:12,525 --> 01:21:15,045

people and they want to help.

1504

01:21:15,105 --> 01:21:20,594

They feel drawn to that, not because

they, you know, are horrible people.

1505

01:21:20,594 --> 01:21:25,755

They're there because they, they've got

a history of maybe a funeral director

1506

01:21:25,785 --> 01:21:29,655

helping them in the past or, or, um, they.

1507

01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:33,000

They're, as I say, they're compassionate

and they want to help people at

1508

01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:34,530

a vulnerable time in their life.

1509

01:21:34,889 --> 01:21:39,419

So I think it's a wrong, uh,

a misperception to think that

1510

01:21:39,419 --> 01:21:41,009

they're there to rip you off.

1511

01:21:41,009 --> 01:21:45,150

They're there to help guide you,

and we do need them because everyone

1512

01:21:45,450 --> 01:21:50,879

needs to be in a coffin basically,

and be taken somewhere to be cremated.

1513

01:21:50,879 --> 01:21:53,070

So they're there to help you.

1514

01:21:53,429 --> 01:21:55,530

And not everyone wants

to do it all themselves.

1515

01:21:55,915 --> 01:21:56,134

No,

1516

01:21:56,139 --> 01:21:56,339

no.

1517

01:21:56,339 --> 01:21:56,969

That's right.

1518

01:21:57,209 --> 01:22:00,839

You're at a time where you've,

you know, your life falls apart,

1519

01:22:01,740 --> 01:22:06,330

and yes, you're vulnerable, but

people aren't there to rip you off.

1520

01:22:06,330 --> 01:22:09,120

They help there to try and

help you make good decisions.

1521

01:22:09,540 --> 01:22:14,219

But as you, as we said, if you've

written down some things, some of

1522

01:22:14,219 --> 01:22:15,929

those decisions are taken away.

1523

01:22:15,929 --> 01:22:20,490

And in your grief, you say, thank

you, Mary, for writing that down.

1524

01:22:20,490 --> 01:22:21,690

I know what you want.

1525

01:22:21,780 --> 01:22:22,440

Okay.

1526

01:22:22,469 --> 01:22:28,049

And now this is what I want to do

to express how I felt about you.

1527

01:22:28,285 --> 01:22:28,575

Yeah.

1528

01:22:28,580 --> 01:22:28,950

Yeah.

1529

01:22:29,580 --> 01:22:30,900

I think that's lovely, Leonie.

1530

01:22:32,519 --> 01:22:32,760

Okay.

1531

01:22:32,940 --> 01:22:34,950

I think that's a great place to end it.

1532

01:22:35,010 --> 01:22:35,460

Okay.

00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,890

I'm very clear, but sometimes

when I have to speak off the cuff,

00:00:04,980 --> 00:00:07,620

it, the lines won't come out.

00:00:08,340 --> 00:00:10,410

So it's, that's another thing.

00:00:11,155 --> 00:00:11,445

Yeah.

00:00:11,845 --> 00:00:11,855

Yeah.

00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:17,940

The, um, I, many times I, um, I refer

to it myself as the, the perimenopause.

00:00:17,970 --> 00:00:18,060

Yeah.

00:00:18,060 --> 00:00:19,560

You know, mind fog Yes.

00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:20,100

That you get.

00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,560

Um, and so I refer to it all the time.

00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:22,860

All right.

00:00:22,860 --> 00:00:24,030

So, so you're in good company.

00:00:24,035 --> 00:00:24,205

Oh, good.

00:00:24,215 --> 00:00:24,605

Don't worry.

00:00:24,635 --> 00:00:24,925

Okay.

00:00:24,925 --> 00:00:25,245

Catherine.

00:00:25,245 --> 00:00:25,405

No.

00:00:25,835 --> 00:00:26,125

Okay.

00:00:26,705 --> 00:00:27,870

No, very good company.

00:00:28,260 --> 00:00:31,350

Um, so I've just pressed record,

so that seems to be doing its

00:00:31,350 --> 00:00:32,910

thing, which is fantastic.

00:00:33,270 --> 00:00:38,640

Um, all the levels seem to

be good, so there we go.

00:00:39,330 --> 00:00:40,950

I'm happy with that.

00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:45,210

Yeah, that's good.

00:00:45,930 --> 00:00:47,520

Little less of that is good.

00:00:48,330 --> 00:00:49,380

Little volume.

00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,730

No, that sounds pretty good.

00:00:53,730 --> 00:00:56,280

I'm pretty happy with, with all of that.

00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:56,340

Uh,

00:00:58,410 --> 00:00:58,710

yeah.

00:00:59,610 --> 00:00:59,850

Yep.

00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,970

No, that's, do you just

want to talk Leone?

00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:03,360

Yes.

00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:04,290

Hi, Catherine.

00:01:04,890 --> 00:01:06,450

Super to be here with you.

00:01:06,780 --> 00:01:08,490

Yeah, I think that's

coming through well.

00:01:08,670 --> 00:01:08,940

Okay.

00:01:09,095 --> 00:01:09,335

Brilliant.

00:01:09,340 --> 00:01:12,060

Okay, let's get started, shall we?

00:01:13,350 --> 00:01:19,800

Today I'm speaking with Leona,

if I can get started Today I'm

00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,680

speaking with Leonie Fletcher Adams.

00:01:23,220 --> 00:01:28,560

Leonie is deeply passionate and highly

experienced funeral celebrant whose

00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:33,960

spiritual values of non-judgment,

kindness, integrity, and connection,

00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:35,640

shape every aspect of her work.

00:01:37,005 --> 00:01:42,135

With more than 30 years experience,

creating ceremonies of meaning and memory.

00:01:42,525 --> 00:01:47,055

Leonie draws on a unique blend of

formal training, lived experience,

00:01:47,055 --> 00:01:51,495

and soulful insight to support

individuals and families through one

00:01:51,495 --> 00:01:53,715

of life's most vulnerable moments.

00:01:54,495 --> 00:01:59,380

Leone's diverse qualifications include

spiritual counseling, accredited

00:01:59,385 --> 00:02:05,865

mediumship, grief and loss training,

metaphysical and liturgical studies.

00:02:05,925 --> 00:02:07,185

I'm so glad I said that right?

00:02:07,185 --> 00:02:07,790

I hope I did.

00:02:09,585 --> 00:02:10,785

It's a lot to trip over.

00:02:10,790 --> 00:02:11,060

It is.

00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:11,620

It is.

00:02:12,825 --> 00:02:18,435

And it also includes palliative nursing,

theatrical training, and professional

00:02:18,435 --> 00:02:20,865

experiences as a funeral director.

00:02:21,555 --> 00:02:25,875

Her background enables her to craft

funeral ceremonies that authentic,

00:02:26,145 --> 00:02:29,745

dignified, heartfelt, and genuinely

reflective of the person being

00:02:29,745 --> 00:02:33,540

honored, whether that be secular,

spiritual, or something in between.

00:02:34,920 --> 00:02:39,180

Described by many as delivering

the best funeral I've ever been to.

00:02:39,450 --> 00:02:40,260

That's pretty good.

00:02:41,370 --> 00:02:45,810

Leonie offers a calm, grounding

presence and a rare ability to

00:02:45,810 --> 00:02:50,010

hold space for people's grief while

celebrating the sacredness of life.

00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:55,410

She is based in Algan in Victoria

and leads spiritual funerals, an

00:02:55,410 --> 00:03:00,900

offering of conscious, inclusive, and

personally tailored end of life rituals.

00:03:01,590 --> 00:03:03,540

Thank you so much for being with me.

00:03:03,540 --> 00:03:03,810

Leonie.

00:03:03,810 --> 00:03:04,200

My pleasure

00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:04,830

to be here,

00:03:04,830 --> 00:03:05,370

Catherine.

00:03:05,370 --> 00:03:05,970

Thank you.

00:03:06,210 --> 00:03:08,850

And we are doing something

a bit different today.

00:03:08,850 --> 00:03:11,160

We are actually in person in my office.

00:03:11,700 --> 00:03:12,930

You are not on the screen.

00:03:12,990 --> 00:03:13,500

Yeah.

00:03:13,575 --> 00:03:16,410

And that's a really lovely thing,

especially just given the fact that you've

00:03:16,650 --> 00:03:18,390

traveled from Regan to be here today.

00:03:18,390 --> 00:03:18,480

Mm-hmm.

00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:20,550

So thank you so much for being with us.

00:03:20,550 --> 00:03:20,640

Yeah,

00:03:20,730 --> 00:03:21,120

thank

00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:21,420

you.

00:03:21,780 --> 00:03:26,790

So tell me, how did you get started

in, in this funeral industry?

00:03:26,790 --> 00:03:27,030

Leone.

00:03:28,290 --> 00:03:28,860

Okay.

00:03:28,860 --> 00:03:32,790

Well, I have to go back to

when I was three years old.

00:03:33,675 --> 00:03:41,265

Because my 4-year-old sister died

and I lost my best friend and my

00:03:41,265 --> 00:03:43,155

parents lost their eldest C child.

00:03:43,155 --> 00:03:45,735

And it still brings up

the tears as she can hear.

00:03:45,735 --> 00:03:45,795

Yeah.

00:03:47,055 --> 00:03:51,165

So that loss and grief shaped our family.

00:03:52,755 --> 00:04:01,485

And in that, I feel I knew that

there was something beyond this earth

00:04:01,545 --> 00:04:04,455

that something else was going on.

00:04:04,455 --> 00:04:09,585

And as a child I would've called that

God, I called it the spiritual worlds.

00:04:09,585 --> 00:04:15,435

Now and on my life journey, I've

sought out teachers to help me

00:04:15,825 --> 00:04:17,774

understand the spiritual world.

00:04:18,795 --> 00:04:21,315

Um, and I see my training as.

00:04:21,675 --> 00:04:26,115

A nurse and as an actress and as

a funeral director, they all came

100

00:04:26,115 --> 00:04:29,055

together to create my celebrancy.

101

00:04:29,055 --> 00:04:31,425

I never did formal

training as a celebrant.

102

00:04:31,425 --> 00:04:38,655

I was learned on the job, so to speak, and

when I began over 30 years ago to conduct

103

00:04:38,895 --> 00:04:46,275

ceremonies, I realized pretty quickly

that people needed hope and they often

104

00:04:46,275 --> 00:04:49,335

lost hope when somebody they loved died.

105

00:04:50,235 --> 00:04:55,545

And at that point, I kept my

spiritual beliefs to myself.

106

00:04:55,935 --> 00:05:00,465

But there came a point in my

journey where I realized that.

107

00:05:02,145 --> 00:05:05,775

The spiritual life is a way of

life, a way of living your life.

108

00:05:05,775 --> 00:05:08,025

And it was how I lived my life.

109

00:05:08,325 --> 00:05:13,665

So why would I want to hide who I

am and what I do and what I believe?

110

00:05:14,625 --> 00:05:16,125

Um, and yeah.

111

00:05:16,335 --> 00:05:16,995

And, and

112

00:05:16,995 --> 00:05:20,415

so just on that, there's a, there's a

few things that I'd, I'd like to, to

113

00:05:20,415 --> 00:05:21,885

talk about that you've raised there.

114

00:05:22,095 --> 00:05:22,155

Yeah.

115

00:05:22,395 --> 00:05:29,595

So firstly that, that change

of recognition for you between

116

00:05:29,955 --> 00:05:31,635

believing in a God Yes.

117

00:05:31,665 --> 00:05:34,785

To now that transition to spirituality.

118

00:05:34,815 --> 00:05:34,905

Yes.

119

00:05:35,535 --> 00:05:39,585

Tell me what, what religion were you,

were you raised in a particular religion?

120

00:05:40,005 --> 00:05:41,325

No, not at all.

121

00:05:41,715 --> 00:05:49,485

Um, as a child, uh, the local, we

moved to an area that was a new

122

00:05:49,485 --> 00:05:51,855

area for the war, war service homes.

123

00:05:51,855 --> 00:05:53,835

This was in Western Sydney?

124

00:05:54,105 --> 00:05:54,255

Yeah.

125

00:05:54,525 --> 00:05:56,625

And there was a local church.

126

00:05:57,435 --> 00:05:58,725

The Church of Christ.

127

00:05:58,725 --> 00:06:00,405

It was Oh, yeah, yeah.

128

00:06:00,405 --> 00:06:00,915

I'm familiar

129

00:06:00,915 --> 00:06:01,725

with Church of Christ.

130

00:06:01,725 --> 00:06:02,115

Yeah.

131

00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:02,130

Yeah.

132

00:06:02,445 --> 00:06:03,345

My husband was,

133

00:06:03,345 --> 00:06:04,095

was, uh,

134

00:06:04,125 --> 00:06:05,235

was raised in that, yeah.

135

00:06:05,295 --> 00:06:05,655

Oh, right.

136

00:06:05,925 --> 00:06:06,135

Okay.

137

00:06:06,525 --> 00:06:11,865

So, um, the minister happened to

knock on the door, uh, to invite

138

00:06:11,865 --> 00:06:16,275

any children along to Sunday school,

and my grandmother answered the door

139

00:06:16,455 --> 00:06:18,465

and my grandmother was my godmother.

140

00:06:19,185 --> 00:06:22,305

And she said, right, you kids

are going off to Sunday school.

141

00:06:23,175 --> 00:06:28,215

My father hated the idea, but

nevertheless, we went, we went off and

142

00:06:28,305 --> 00:06:32,715

it was like, um, a, a safe place for me.

143

00:06:33,315 --> 00:06:41,805

And I loved the singing and I loved the

stories and yeah, I, I, I knew great.

144

00:06:42,540 --> 00:06:46,710

Mm. Lots of the Bible off by

heart and things like that.

145

00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,180

So I felt like I'd come to my

spiritual home, even though I wouldn't

146

00:06:51,180 --> 00:06:52,680

have called it that at that time.

147

00:06:52,890 --> 00:06:53,100

Yeah.

148

00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:58,500

And then tell me about that,

that transition for you, how

149

00:06:58,770 --> 00:07:02,010

your faith developed over that

time and over your experience.

150

00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:02,580

Yeah.

151

00:07:02,670 --> 00:07:03,300

Um,

152

00:07:05,460 --> 00:07:13,980

I suppose because I'd always felt mm,

that there's, you know, Shakespeare

153

00:07:13,980 --> 00:07:16,950

wrote, there's more things in

heaven and earth, Horatio than

154

00:07:16,950 --> 00:07:18,750

in your yours are my philosophy.

155

00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:25,290

If you understand and have an appreciation

of that, then you know there's something

156

00:07:25,290 --> 00:07:27,990

greater and bigger going on than yourself.

157

00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:35,700

So from, uh, church, and I think when

I, in my nursing years in looking

158

00:07:35,700 --> 00:07:38,020

after people, I, I saw how, um.

159

00:07:40,290 --> 00:07:46,410

Uh, a complicated life was really

for people, how dramatic it was.

160

00:07:46,410 --> 00:07:48,480

You know, how sad it was.

161

00:07:48,990 --> 00:07:52,380

Uh, and so my eyes were

opening all the time.

162

00:07:53,760 --> 00:08:00,420

Uh, I, you know, went overseas

and saw where, you know, sacred

163

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sites or, uh, learned about

spiritual things through books.

164

00:08:05,850 --> 00:08:07,770

I loved Scott Peck books.

165

00:08:07,770 --> 00:08:09,360

Uh, you know, the Roadless Traveled.

166

00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:10,560

That was a real eyeopener.

167

00:08:11,310 --> 00:08:17,790

Then I found, um, in Victoria,

uh, spiritual teacher who

168

00:08:17,850 --> 00:08:22,200

combined and Western religions.

169

00:08:22,650 --> 00:08:25,800

It was a formal church, but he

taught reincarnation and karma.

170

00:08:26,730 --> 00:08:29,340

And then the next thing

was I put all that away.

171

00:08:29,340 --> 00:08:31,920

Moved to Tazzie, hid what for a while.

172

00:08:32,265 --> 00:08:35,445

Looked at course in

miracles, read all that.

173

00:08:35,445 --> 00:08:44,325

And then from there went, uh, came back

to um, uh, Melbourne and heard about a

174

00:08:44,325 --> 00:08:49,755

couple of people that were doing readings

at a little cheese and wine evening.

175

00:08:50,385 --> 00:08:55,365

And I went along to that and there was

this gentleman there called Ian Rogers

176

00:08:55,425 --> 00:09:01,425

and he gave me a mini reading and I

nearly fell off the floor with the

177

00:09:01,425 --> 00:09:09,555

accuracy with, uh, I was like blown away

so this person can tell me about myself.

178

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Things I didn't have never told anybody.

179

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So, yes.

180

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So there it, is it possible to share

181

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any of

182

00:09:17,025 --> 00:09:18,105

those little things?

183

00:09:18,870 --> 00:09:21,240

Uh, well, that was a while ago now.

184

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But yes, he, he told me about my marriage

at the time, what I was going through

185

00:09:26,010 --> 00:09:32,189

in my marriage, um, what I, of the

hurts that had happened in my life.

186

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Uh, told me about, uh, my spirit guides,

who was looking after me and why.

187

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Yeah.

188

00:09:41,430 --> 00:09:48,750

So it was, even though it was only 15

minutes long at that time, I, I went,

189

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here's my next teacher.

190

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Yeah.

191

00:09:53,250 --> 00:09:55,620

I think the, the student

finds the teacher.

192

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So I was always, as I

say that way, inclined.

193

00:09:59,430 --> 00:09:59,760

Yeah.

194

00:09:59,849 --> 00:10:08,760

That, um, yeah, I just gravitated to,

uh, there's more to life than what

195

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we see, you know, this more going on

than what we see and I, and to know

196

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that we're this tiny dot, and yet.

197

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We can be so creative.

198

00:10:20,670 --> 00:10:21,600

Look at what you do.

199

00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:26,100

You know, we've all got amazing

talents and, no, that's good.

200

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That's all good.

201

00:10:26,755 --> 00:10:27,045

Yeah.

202

00:10:27,045 --> 00:10:27,205

Yeah.

203

00:10:27,235 --> 00:10:27,525

Yeah.

204

00:10:29,010 --> 00:10:29,490

Oh, well, yeah,

205

00:10:29,490 --> 00:10:29,910

that's,

206

00:10:30,870 --> 00:10:32,640

that's, um, that's fan.

207

00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:33,960

That's very interesting.

208

00:10:34,170 --> 00:10:37,410

Um, I, sorry.

209

00:10:37,410 --> 00:10:39,120

What we'll do is I'll

pick it up from Yeah.

210

00:10:39,510 --> 00:10:40,740

So that's fine.

211

00:10:40,890 --> 00:10:43,725

Um, and I'll move this away so

you don't have to worry about it.

212

00:10:43,725 --> 00:10:44,085

Don't get that.

213

00:10:44,085 --> 00:10:44,245

Yes.

214

00:10:44,375 --> 00:10:45,030

There you go.

215

00:10:45,420 --> 00:10:45,750

Yeah.

216

00:10:45,780 --> 00:10:46,680

But that's all good.

217

00:10:48,090 --> 00:10:52,420

Um, so just something that, that,

that you mentioned there mm-hmm.

218

00:10:52,435 --> 00:10:54,570

That you ran away to Tasmania.

219

00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:55,290

Yes.

220

00:10:56,010 --> 00:11:00,810

Was, was there any reason, uh,

anything that happened that

221

00:11:00,885 --> 00:11:02,550

drove that, that running away?

222

00:11:02,550 --> 00:11:02,670

That's,

223

00:11:03,090 --> 00:11:08,550

um, I think we all at times in

our life feel like we just gotta

224

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get away and regroup and heal

ourselves, or, uh, we need change.

225

00:11:18,194 --> 00:11:19,214

What happened?

226

00:11:19,275 --> 00:11:21,974

The, my spiritual teacher

at that time died.

227

00:11:24,045 --> 00:11:31,484

Uh, things went a bit awry in,

you know, within people that had

228

00:11:31,484 --> 00:11:35,385

loved each other and suddenly all

our differences were coming up.

229

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Um, yeah.

230

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And I just felt right.

231

00:11:40,305 --> 00:11:42,675

We just need to sort this out in my mind.

232

00:11:42,675 --> 00:11:43,844

What has happened here?

233

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So, um, my husband and

I went off to Tazzie.

234

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We knew no one, um, we took

our dogs, we took everything.

235

00:11:54,104 --> 00:11:55,064

Why Tassie?

236

00:11:58,245 --> 00:12:02,805

There was a friend of my husband's

at the time who loved fishing.

237

00:12:04,515 --> 00:12:07,005

And he was down in Tasie, he said, oh.

238

00:12:07,365 --> 00:12:09,975

And he rang up and he said, oh,

you should come down to Tasie.

239

00:12:09,975 --> 00:12:11,295

The fishing's great down here.

240

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Not the We fished.

241

00:12:12,750 --> 00:12:12,910

Yeah.

242

00:12:13,490 --> 00:12:16,755

But yeah, let's come, come on down.

243

00:12:16,755 --> 00:12:19,215

So, you know, pristine and beautiful.

244

00:12:19,215 --> 00:12:20,505

And it was like a phone call.

245

00:12:20,535 --> 00:12:21,855

Oh, well let's go to Tassie.

246

00:12:21,855 --> 00:12:24,135

It was just instantaneous like that.

247

00:12:24,735 --> 00:12:26,535

And tell me which part of Tasmania?

248

00:12:26,535 --> 00:12:28,245

In Hobart we ride In Hobart.

249

00:12:28,250 --> 00:12:28,510

Yeah.

250

00:12:28,515 --> 00:12:28,725

Yeah.

251

00:12:28,725 --> 00:12:29,235

Wow.

252

00:12:29,355 --> 00:12:34,395

Just on Bel Rie beach where

the cricket oval is just Yeah.

253

00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:34,630

Yeah.

254

00:12:34,845 --> 00:12:34,965

Wow.

255

00:12:34,965 --> 00:12:37,575

On a cliff overlooking the water.

256

00:12:37,845 --> 00:12:41,925

And, uh, yeah, it was, it was magic.

257

00:12:41,925 --> 00:12:48,045

I still miss the fresh fish off the

wharf down there and the, the fresh air.

258

00:12:48,165 --> 00:12:53,295

It's, as soon as I came back to Melbourne,

I could really tell the difference was.

259

00:12:53,565 --> 00:12:53,925

Yeah.

260

00:12:55,005 --> 00:12:56,895

And so you moved back to Melbourne.

261

00:12:56,985 --> 00:12:57,045

Yeah.

262

00:12:57,050 --> 00:12:59,775

And you, you had this experience.

263

00:12:59,775 --> 00:12:59,865

Mm-hmm.

264

00:13:00,555 --> 00:13:01,365

Tell me.

265

00:13:02,415 --> 00:13:07,215

What happened, like after that 15

minutes that, that you were quite blown

266

00:13:07,215 --> 00:13:09,165

away with what he was saying to you?

267

00:13:09,165 --> 00:13:09,255

Yes.

268

00:13:09,825 --> 00:13:13,005

How, what was that impact for

you moving forward in your life?

269

00:13:14,055 --> 00:13:15,975

Uh, the marriage

270

00:13:15,975 --> 00:13:27,645

ended, um, I realized that, well,

Ian helped me realize that I had

271

00:13:27,645 --> 00:13:33,435

a lot of spiritual knowledge in my

mind, but I hadn't really gotten to

272

00:13:33,435 --> 00:13:35,865

the depths of myself as a person.

273

00:13:37,605 --> 00:13:44,505

So I, I went on a conference,

actually, we took off to Vietnam.

274

00:13:44,595 --> 00:13:48,855

There was a few of us, and we

learned about our spiritual guides,

275

00:13:48,855 --> 00:13:56,715

about our purpose in life and yeah,

connection to the spiritual world.

276

00:13:56,925 --> 00:13:59,505

So it was starting to come out of my head.

277

00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:06,990

Where I had knowledge and to come

into my being, to all the talents

278

00:14:06,990 --> 00:14:14,910

or, um, creativity that I had

now seemed to be more purposeful.

279

00:14:14,910 --> 00:14:19,380

I, I don't think I'm explaining

it very well, but it was like, um,

280

00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:26,160

you know, you can have a, maybe

if I said about my nursing, if, if

281

00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,850

I'd done a university degree but

had never changed a bed or a bed

282

00:14:29,850 --> 00:14:32,700

pan, what sort of nurse would I be?

283

00:14:33,150 --> 00:14:40,380

So I had all this knowledge here, but how

can I be a better person on this planet?

284

00:14:40,380 --> 00:14:45,930

How can I put everything that's

in Leonie into a good practice?

285

00:14:46,020 --> 00:14:52,380

And I had, um, worked in funerals

at the time and so I started to,

286

00:14:53,010 --> 00:14:56,280

uh, see that what I believed.

287

00:14:57,015 --> 00:15:05,835

Uh, what I could share with people with

my energy and my, um, uh, feeling that

288

00:15:05,835 --> 00:15:12,045

we're all equal and that we're all messed

up and that we're all a mixture of so

289

00:15:12,045 --> 00:15:18,765

much and accept people and not judge

them, but just to be there for them.

290

00:15:18,915 --> 00:15:21,135

I, I, I somehow could.

291

00:15:22,665 --> 00:15:28,065

Yeah, and from, from that moment in

childhood, that little 3-year-old

292

00:15:28,065 --> 00:15:33,015

girl that experienced that major

thing in life, then it somehow

293

00:15:33,015 --> 00:15:39,645

felt like that was the stepping off

point for what I meant to do and be.

294

00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:41,370

Does that make sense?

295

00:15:41,630 --> 00:15:42,315

It, it does.

296

00:15:42,315 --> 00:15:43,395

And it sounds like you were.

297

00:15:44,205 --> 00:15:48,795

It's almost like, um, embodying from,

from being an intellectual That's right.

298

00:15:48,795 --> 00:15:52,995

To actually more of like an embodiment

of what you feel like you represent.

299

00:15:52,995 --> 00:15:55,120

Would that be a way to That

would be a way to put it, yeah.

300

00:15:55,125 --> 00:15:55,335

Yeah.

301

00:15:55,335 --> 00:15:55,695

Right.

302

00:15:55,695 --> 00:15:55,814

Yeah.

303

00:15:56,085 --> 00:15:59,655

And tell me, you talk about

the spiritual guides.

304

00:15:59,715 --> 00:15:59,895

Yes.

305

00:15:59,925 --> 00:16:03,885

How talk, could you talk me through

what a spiritual guide is, how you

306

00:16:03,885 --> 00:16:05,685

can connect with spiritual guides?

307

00:16:05,685 --> 00:16:06,705

Do we all have them?

308

00:16:07,005 --> 00:16:09,705

I, I, this is something I'm,

I'm absolutely fascinated with.

309

00:16:09,705 --> 00:16:09,735

Oh.

310

00:16:09,735 --> 00:16:13,725

So if you can, you can talk through that

to me to give me a better understanding

311

00:16:13,725 --> 00:16:14,955

and the listeners a better understanding.

312

00:16:14,955 --> 00:16:15,465

That'd be great.

313

00:16:15,465 --> 00:16:15,615

Okay.

314

00:16:15,915 --> 00:16:27,705

Um, look, we all come in to this planet

with guides and they're there, they're

315

00:16:27,705 --> 00:16:31,965

allocated to us when we're, even

before we're in the womb, you know?

316

00:16:33,194 --> 00:16:38,385

Um, and there's always a guide

that's there from birth till we die.

317

00:16:38,445 --> 00:16:40,095

Yeah, that's our guardian.

318

00:16:40,095 --> 00:16:43,785

I guess we've got some people

would call it the guardian angel.

319

00:16:43,785 --> 00:16:48,375

I wouldn't call it angels,

but they're, they're there to

320

00:16:48,465 --> 00:16:51,135

be an overseer for our life.

321

00:16:52,245 --> 00:16:54,885

Then we have guides to, to help us.

322

00:16:54,915 --> 00:16:56,475

So we've always got a guide.

323

00:16:56,475 --> 00:17:02,895

You know, you might say, oh,

I know that's wrong, you know,

324

00:17:02,955 --> 00:17:05,595

and so that a gut feeling.

325

00:17:05,595 --> 00:17:05,625

A gut feeling.

326

00:17:05,775 --> 00:17:06,915

So there's your guide.

327

00:17:07,995 --> 00:17:09,705

Yelling in your ears sometimes.

328

00:17:09,705 --> 00:17:13,665

Sometimes, you know, they're just,

they're going, oh gosh, Leone's

329

00:17:13,665 --> 00:17:15,735

making that may same mistake again.

330

00:17:15,735 --> 00:17:17,805

You know, we're gonna have

to try something different.

331

00:17:18,375 --> 00:17:19,275

So yeah.

332

00:17:19,815 --> 00:17:21,015

They're there to call on.

333

00:17:21,015 --> 00:17:26,415

They're there loving us and wanting

the best for us in all that we do.

334

00:17:27,135 --> 00:17:29,025

And, uh, yeah.

335

00:17:29,055 --> 00:17:32,430

So there's, I'm probably

not the best person to, I'm,

336

00:17:32,475 --> 00:17:33,975

I'm not a spiritual teacher.

337

00:17:34,035 --> 00:17:34,995

I'm a no.

338

00:17:34,995 --> 00:17:36,375

But in, it's only

339

00:17:36,375 --> 00:17:39,310

in relation to your, your experience Yes.

340

00:17:39,315 --> 00:17:40,245

And your story.

341

00:17:40,245 --> 00:17:44,475

So I'd love to hear about your

experience and what it means to you.

342

00:17:44,625 --> 00:17:44,835

Yes.

343

00:17:45,885 --> 00:17:51,645

Well, for instance, when I'm

conducting a funeral or when I meet

344

00:17:51,645 --> 00:17:54,795

a family, let's go with that first.

345

00:17:54,795 --> 00:17:59,685

When I meet a family, the first

thing I think when I there with them

346

00:18:00,285 --> 00:18:02,990

is, where's the love needed here?

347

00:18:04,050 --> 00:18:05,010

What's the hurt?

348

00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:06,630

What's the wound here?

349

00:18:07,650 --> 00:18:16,050

Um, and, and as I talk and ask, I just

wanna be there as I ask them to tell

350

00:18:16,050 --> 00:18:18,810

me the truth about their loved one.

351

00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,600

'cause we all learned from

somebody else's journey.

352

00:18:22,290 --> 00:18:27,750

And they often, people can't tell the

truth, very hard to tell the truth in this

353

00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:34,650

world, but they might, as they relax, let

on a few of the hardships or the hurts.

354

00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:38,610

Um, now where was I going with that?

355

00:18:38,610 --> 00:18:39,355

So I'm, I'm,

356

00:18:41,460 --> 00:18:41,850

yeah.

357

00:18:41,850 --> 00:18:47,130

In, in that I'm talking to my guide

while I'm asking those questions.

358

00:18:47,970 --> 00:18:49,740

Help me to be in tune.

359

00:18:49,740 --> 00:18:50,850

What do I see?

360

00:18:50,940 --> 00:18:51,750

What am I hearing?

361

00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:52,890

What am I not hearing?

362

00:18:53,190 --> 00:18:54,900

What's that person not saying?

363

00:18:55,050 --> 00:18:55,170

Mm-hmm.

364

00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:59,790

Um, so then I go home and

I write up the ceremony.

365

00:18:59,850 --> 00:19:01,200

And as I'm writing.

366

00:19:02,129 --> 00:19:08,610

I feel like I'm in communion, uh,

with my guide, who can maybe see

367

00:19:08,610 --> 00:19:10,200

what's happened for that person.

368

00:19:11,220 --> 00:19:14,580

Uh, what's the wording needed here?

369

00:19:15,030 --> 00:19:23,400

What's, what will, uh, express,

uh, something, give me the words

370

00:19:23,430 --> 00:19:27,090

so that everyone, so people say,

oh, did you know that person?

371

00:19:27,420 --> 00:19:35,430

No, but I, I feel like I go into a

space where I'm in tune with my, my

372

00:19:35,430 --> 00:19:41,520

spirit guides helping me and with

the family and with the person who's

373

00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,490

passed, although they're often,

and they're gotta do their thing.

374

00:19:45,450 --> 00:19:54,150

And then at the ceremony, I ask my

guides, whoever's there come in and help.

375

00:19:54,450 --> 00:19:57,629

So then it's not a chore

for me to hold the space.

376

00:19:58,770 --> 00:20:00,595

I just say, you know, just.

377

00:20:01,290 --> 00:20:05,850

Let it be, let me just be a

conduit for what's needed here.

378

00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:11,400

Uh, yes, I may have prepared

very well, but in that moment,

379

00:20:11,580 --> 00:20:13,110

there's a whole lot going on.

380

00:20:13,620 --> 00:20:16,650

How do we bring this

group of people together?

381

00:20:17,130 --> 00:20:19,380

How can we create unity?

382

00:20:19,650 --> 00:20:25,500

How sometimes, and people might think this

is really weird, but I imagine everyone's

383

00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:27,840

guide standing behind them in the room.

384

00:20:28,530 --> 00:20:29,100

Well, some

385

00:20:29,100 --> 00:20:32,490

people will say, imagine the,

uh, the audience is naked.

386

00:20:32,490 --> 00:20:32,580

So,

387

00:20:33,510 --> 00:20:35,190

yes, I, I think I prefer your version.

388

00:20:35,190 --> 00:20:36,090

Yes, absolutely.

389

00:20:37,050 --> 00:20:39,240

So, uh, you know, um.

390

00:20:40,530 --> 00:20:41,190

Yeah.

391

00:20:41,340 --> 00:20:46,350

I like if, if I, I remember

there was a young man who died,

392

00:20:46,350 --> 00:20:47,790

I'd conducted his funeral.

393

00:20:48,270 --> 00:20:54,840

The room was full of young blokes in black

leather and tattoos and, and here I was in

394

00:20:54,840 --> 00:21:02,250

a floral suit or something, you know, so,

and I just said, all right, we've, we've

395

00:21:02,250 --> 00:21:04,530

gotta, these people are really hurting.

396

00:21:04,530 --> 00:21:05,040

They young.

397

00:21:05,129 --> 00:21:07,350

He came off his motorbike,

something like that.

398

00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:09,300

So they're all distressed.

399

00:21:11,879 --> 00:21:14,220

Help me to speak their language.

400

00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:23,700

Uh, and so the tone of my voice or Yeah,

what they might not even remember what I

401

00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:26,760

said, but people remember what they feel.

402

00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:27,270

Mm-hmm.

403

00:21:27,405 --> 00:21:27,625

And.

404

00:21:28,755 --> 00:21:32,985

Um, then they brought this young

man out and put him on the back

405

00:21:32,985 --> 00:21:34,515

of a ute or something like that.

406

00:21:34,515 --> 00:21:38,535

And I heard one of the young ones say,

oh, that lady was great, wasn't she?

407

00:21:38,745 --> 00:21:39,135

You know?

408

00:21:40,035 --> 00:21:41,625

And I thought, okay, thank you.

409

00:21:41,625 --> 00:21:42,165

You know?

410

00:21:42,165 --> 00:21:42,225

Yeah.

411

00:21:42,285 --> 00:21:44,325

Um, we hit the spot for them.

412

00:21:44,325 --> 00:21:45,435

So yeah.

413

00:21:45,435 --> 00:21:46,695

What happens afterwards?

414

00:21:46,695 --> 00:21:54,165

I don't know often, but in that moment

in time, my, my wish, my desire, my,

415

00:21:54,645 --> 00:22:02,475

my love for what spirit can do for

people, that's what I like to feel I

416

00:22:02,475 --> 00:22:04,725

can bring through in that ceremony.

417

00:22:05,265 --> 00:22:10,155

And I think it's important to say

that at its heart, a spiritual

418

00:22:10,185 --> 00:22:16,125

funeral is an honest funeral and

everybody deserves an honest funeral.

419

00:22:17,235 --> 00:22:22,635

And yeah, people, some people

say, you know, you know.

420

00:22:23,445 --> 00:22:25,004

Mom didn't believe in anything.

421

00:22:25,004 --> 00:22:26,235

Or when you die, you die.

422

00:22:26,235 --> 00:22:30,104

I've only had a handful of

people say that to me in, in 30

423

00:22:30,104 --> 00:22:31,875

years, when you die, you die.

424

00:22:31,875 --> 00:22:36,104

Most people go, oh, they're

with loved ones, gone before.

425

00:22:36,104 --> 00:22:37,514

They're at peace now.

426

00:22:37,875 --> 00:22:41,145

They're free of the

physical body now, you know?

427

00:22:41,205 --> 00:22:46,665

Um, even if they don't believe

in God or heaven, they believe in

428

00:22:46,665 --> 00:22:52,844

a, in a space, a place that, uh,

where their loved one is more free.

429

00:22:53,175 --> 00:22:53,534

Yeah.

430

00:22:54,284 --> 00:22:54,375

So.

431

00:22:55,050 --> 00:22:59,400

And tell me Leonie, you know, the, the,

the time that you are describing, and

432

00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:04,260

I, I think that as you're talking,

everyone will be thinking about those very

433

00:23:04,260 --> 00:23:06,095

important role that you have about mm-hmm.

434

00:23:06,900 --> 00:23:10,440

You know, when we, when we get

together with our loved ones

435

00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,855

and sometimes not so loved Yes.

436

00:23:12,855 --> 00:23:14,400

Uh, at, at funerals.

437

00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:15,420

Yeah.

438

00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:18,420

It is, it is really complicated

because you are bringing together

439

00:23:18,420 --> 00:23:22,860

people that may not have been together

for a very long period of time.

440

00:23:23,340 --> 00:23:25,530

Putting them all in the one room together.

441

00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:26,070

Yeah.

442

00:23:26,490 --> 00:23:32,015

And then you have to speak about someone

who can no longer represent themselves.

443

00:23:32,430 --> 00:23:33,900

They are, they are, have died.

444

00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:39,390

And, and so the information that

you receive is everyone's perception

445

00:23:39,390 --> 00:23:43,890

of that person, and then you have

to stand up there and deliver that.

446

00:23:43,895 --> 00:23:49,064

Mm. Tell me, you, you've talked a bit

about how you, you go through the process

447

00:23:49,064 --> 00:23:54,225

with, um, seeking assistance from your

spiritual guides in relation to that.

448

00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:54,320

Mm-hmm.

449

00:23:54,399 --> 00:23:59,355

And, and a little bit about how

you use language to assist you

450

00:23:59,355 --> 00:24:01,215

with communicating that Yes.

451

00:24:01,544 --> 00:24:03,254

And the importance of honesty.

452

00:24:03,405 --> 00:24:03,824

Yes.

453

00:24:04,544 --> 00:24:08,625

What does the role of ritual play

in that space when you're dealing

454

00:24:08,625 --> 00:24:10,514

with so many challenging things?

455

00:24:10,514 --> 00:24:10,605

Yes.

456

00:24:11,745 --> 00:24:12,225

Um,

457

00:24:14,625 --> 00:24:18,945

well, I think ritual and ceremony,

they're another language.

458

00:24:18,945 --> 00:24:22,635

We communicate with a

simple thing of lighting.

459

00:24:22,635 --> 00:24:25,754

A candle can bring tears to people.

460

00:24:27,135 --> 00:24:37,574

Um, I just feel, uh, yes, if people

don't have to speak, but can, can do

461

00:24:37,574 --> 00:24:42,284

things like, uh, for instance, I might

say one of the questions I might,

462

00:24:42,389 --> 00:24:43,965

what, what was their favorite color?

463

00:24:44,955 --> 00:24:46,035

What were they good at?

464

00:24:46,035 --> 00:24:50,955

What, what, uh, would they

say was their best attribute?

465

00:24:51,495 --> 00:24:53,775

What did they, were they good cook?

466

00:24:53,775 --> 00:25:00,525

You know, I try and just go, start simple

like that and then they feel excited.

467

00:25:01,335 --> 00:25:04,995

Ah, Nana always had a jar of

jelly beans in the cupboard.

468

00:25:05,715 --> 00:25:06,675

Can we have that there?

469

00:25:06,765 --> 00:25:07,545

Yes.

470

00:25:07,725 --> 00:25:08,535

Bring that.

471

00:25:08,535 --> 00:25:11,985

And why don't you dish them out to

everybody at the end of the ceremony?

472

00:25:12,375 --> 00:25:14,295

So even simple things like that.

473

00:25:14,295 --> 00:25:19,965

I think, uh, uh, little rituals

or it was the person, an artist.

474

00:25:19,965 --> 00:25:23,055

Let's bring whether they're

a great crochet or painter or

475

00:25:25,335 --> 00:25:28,815

photographer, let's

bring that into the room.

476

00:25:29,085 --> 00:25:34,905

The essence of that person into the

room, and the ritual of bringing that

477

00:25:34,905 --> 00:25:43,125

in and placing it and making a space

that's got all that beauty in it.

478

00:25:43,365 --> 00:25:43,785

Yeah.

479

00:25:45,075 --> 00:25:46,605

And music too.

480

00:25:46,605 --> 00:25:49,725

I think, um, that moves us.

481

00:25:49,725 --> 00:25:54,825

That's another important

part of ritual and ceremony.

482

00:25:55,695 --> 00:26:01,725

A beautiful soprano voice can make your

spine tingle, you know, or music puts

483

00:26:01,725 --> 00:26:06,165

us in a place of deep thought and yeah.

484

00:26:06,705 --> 00:26:09,255

Um, am I answering your question?

485

00:26:09,255 --> 00:26:09,810

I dunno.

486

00:26:09,810 --> 00:26:11,385

Yeah, that's, I dunno if I, I'm putting

487

00:26:11,385 --> 00:26:13,125

myself in the room with those people.

488

00:26:13,125 --> 00:26:17,925

No, it is really helpful because

especially those insight to the questions

489

00:26:17,925 --> 00:26:22,785

about how you work with families to

try and work out what is their thing.

490

00:26:22,845 --> 00:26:22,965

Yes.

491

00:26:22,965 --> 00:26:24,825

You know, what is their story?

492

00:26:24,825 --> 00:26:28,575

What is well, their story or

connection with the person who's died.

493

00:26:28,575 --> 00:26:28,935

That's right.

494

00:26:29,265 --> 00:26:33,645

You know, um, 'cause sometimes people

don't think about this process.

495

00:26:33,645 --> 00:26:34,125

They don't until

496

00:26:34,125 --> 00:26:35,175

they're actually in it.

497

00:26:35,180 --> 00:26:35,930

That's, and that's so hard.

498

00:26:36,345 --> 00:26:37,005

That's right.

499

00:26:37,305 --> 00:26:37,815

Yes.

500

00:26:37,815 --> 00:26:40,335

And I think it's

important to start simple.

501

00:26:40,335 --> 00:26:43,095

No matter, no matter what, you know.

502

00:26:43,470 --> 00:26:51,120

I've sat in, I've sat in, um, some very

wealthy family homes, and then that

503

00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:57,480

afternoon gone to somebody's home who's a

hoarder and little money, you know, so you

504

00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:05,790

see, but still people, uh, there's some

similarities always underneath, no matter

505

00:27:05,790 --> 00:27:09,690

your station in life, I think everybody

feels they need to be understood.

506

00:27:10,290 --> 00:27:13,560

Everyone needs to feel that

they're loved in life, don't they?

507

00:27:14,790 --> 00:27:20,100

Let me tell you about a family

that, um, was quite memorable.

508

00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:21,450

It's just coming to mind.

509

00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,570

Uh, they were at war with each other.

510

00:27:26,250 --> 00:27:29,880

I've meet a lot of families who are at

war with each other, and sometimes I

511

00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,300

wonder why they're having a funeral,

but, but they still have that

512

00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:35,040

feeling that's the right thing to do.

513

00:27:35,580 --> 00:27:35,850

Uh, but it

514

00:27:35,850 --> 00:27:37,470

is a good question to ask.

515

00:27:37,470 --> 00:27:38,910

Yeah, like sometimes.

516

00:27:39,764 --> 00:27:41,115

Is it really appropriate?

517

00:27:41,115 --> 00:27:44,355

Like if they are that warring,

do they re, do they really feel

518

00:27:44,355 --> 00:27:45,705

like they have to go ahead?

519

00:27:46,155 --> 00:27:50,115

Well, sometimes it's in the person's

will that they want a funeral.

520

00:27:50,115 --> 00:27:51,105

So they do.

521

00:27:51,105 --> 00:27:55,905

Or there's one person in the family that

organize it, or just that they have never

522

00:27:55,905 --> 00:27:58,305

thought they couldn't have a funeral.

523

00:27:58,395 --> 00:27:58,725

Yeah.

524

00:27:58,725 --> 00:27:59,715

They just think they should.

525

00:28:00,135 --> 00:28:00,375

Anyway.

526

00:28:00,375 --> 00:28:04,935

This particular family, they were so at

war with each other that they came in

527

00:28:04,935 --> 00:28:08,115

through different doors into the chapel.

528

00:28:08,355 --> 00:28:11,115

They sat on opposite sides of the chapel.

529

00:28:11,865 --> 00:28:16,425

They were all scally faced and

very closed down emotionally.

530

00:28:16,875 --> 00:28:18,195

Oh, that's a hard audience.

531

00:28:18,225 --> 00:28:18,855

Yes.

532

00:28:19,485 --> 00:28:25,665

So I can't remember what I said

now, but I do remember that.

533

00:28:26,535 --> 00:28:30,795

Alright, I, I need to

create some unity here.

534

00:28:30,795 --> 00:28:37,635

I need to them to feel that they're

here for a reason or, you know, um.

535

00:28:38,235 --> 00:28:43,335

And to do the best I can so that they

feel that they've done the best they can.

536

00:28:43,395 --> 00:28:44,024

They can.

537

00:28:45,314 --> 00:28:52,155

And about 10 minutes in one of the

grandchildren, I can't even remember

538

00:28:52,155 --> 00:28:56,115

how old she was, she may have been

12 ish or something like that, got

539

00:28:56,115 --> 00:29:00,735

out of a seat, went to the other side

of the room and embraced somebody

540

00:29:00,855 --> 00:29:04,034

and said out loud, I love you.

541

00:29:05,774 --> 00:29:07,845

Now this had me in tears of course.

542

00:29:07,845 --> 00:29:08,745

And Wow.

543

00:29:08,745 --> 00:29:15,345

And so, and this started the tears

and still people were sitting still,

544

00:29:15,345 --> 00:29:18,495

but you know, but that broke the ice.

545

00:29:19,034 --> 00:29:19,455

Yeah.

546

00:29:19,544 --> 00:29:20,145

What a

547

00:29:20,595 --> 00:29:21,225

outrageous

548

00:29:21,225 --> 00:29:22,304

12-year-old girl.

549

00:29:22,335 --> 00:29:22,814

Yes.

550

00:29:22,820 --> 00:29:23,020

So.

551

00:29:24,690 --> 00:29:29,820

I thank my guides in that time for helping

me create the space where she feels

552

00:29:29,820 --> 00:29:32,220

she could actually get up and do that.

553

00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:32,640

Yeah.

554

00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:33,060

You know?

555

00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,230

And her guide was probably

in her ear saying, you know,

556

00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:38,460

why are you sitting here?

557

00:29:38,460 --> 00:29:41,460

You, you know, you love

grandpa or whoever it was.

558

00:29:41,460 --> 00:29:43,320

She went and embraced, I can't remember.

559

00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:51,240

Um, and so by the end of the funeral,

there was a feeling of we've done

560

00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:56,370

the right thing and you know, we've,

we've said goodbye to, was it grandma?

561

00:29:56,370 --> 00:29:57,540

I don't, I can't remember.

562

00:29:58,140 --> 00:30:02,400

Um, and they even had

refreshments together.

563

00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:03,780

Now, what happened after that?

564

00:30:03,780 --> 00:30:05,880

As I say, I don't dunno.

565

00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,820

I often ring the families, well,

they always ring the families

566

00:30:08,820 --> 00:30:12,900

about 10 days after a funeral just

to see how they're traveling now.

567

00:30:12,900 --> 00:30:18,960

All the organizations finished and

paperwork's underway, and they may

568

00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,720

have collected the ashes or whatever.

569

00:30:21,795 --> 00:30:24,765

Yeah, so I just check, usually check in.

570

00:30:24,765 --> 00:30:29,385

But, um, and some people,

uh, of course now are feeling

571

00:30:29,385 --> 00:30:31,365

that aloneness that happens.

572

00:30:31,545 --> 00:30:31,905

Mm-hmm.

573

00:30:32,325 --> 00:30:38,175

So they're grateful for a voice a little

bit along the track to see how they are.

574

00:30:38,475 --> 00:30:38,925

Yeah.

575

00:30:39,375 --> 00:30:43,515

And what is the, the things that you

find that are challenging for people

576

00:30:44,355 --> 00:30:48,675

after the funeral's been, people have

probably, you know, gone back to their,

577

00:30:48,675 --> 00:30:50,805

their working lives by this stage.

578

00:30:51,255 --> 00:30:54,285

Uh, you know, 10 days is

not a very long time, is it?

579

00:30:54,285 --> 00:30:54,715

No, no.

580

00:30:55,275 --> 00:31:00,915

Um, look, there's a lot to

do with organizing a funeral.

581

00:31:01,305 --> 00:31:03,435

There's a lot of, uh, paperwork.

582

00:31:03,435 --> 00:31:07,485

There's a lot of, you know, you might

be the executor as well and have to deal

583

00:31:07,815 --> 00:31:12,255

with the room at the nursing home or, you

know, so there's lots of things to keep

584

00:31:12,255 --> 00:31:15,255

busy and it keeps your grief at bay a bit.

585

00:31:15,825 --> 00:31:19,480

But there comes a point,

um, where of course.

586

00:31:20,505 --> 00:31:25,365

And people stop dropping food off or,

you know, uh, the cards have stopped

587

00:31:25,365 --> 00:31:31,305

coming in the mail or whatever, and

people just get on with their lives.

588

00:31:31,305 --> 00:31:35,925

And so you're left, say it's a husband

and wife and they've been together

589

00:31:35,955 --> 00:31:41,925

60, 70 years, you know, suddenly it's

like their right arm's being cut off.

590

00:31:42,045 --> 00:31:42,165

Mm-hmm.

591

00:31:43,455 --> 00:31:50,055

Um, and the alone at night, you know, uh,

and who do you talk to about your day?

592

00:31:50,685 --> 00:31:51,555

That sort of thing.

593

00:31:52,305 --> 00:31:55,005

So, um, and setting the place for one,

594

00:31:55,005 --> 00:31:57,615

I think is the, setting the

place for why the big thing

595

00:31:57,615 --> 00:31:59,325

that is, is such a difference.

596

00:31:59,325 --> 00:32:02,565

You know, if they were someone who

would sit down at a dinner table

597

00:32:02,565 --> 00:32:06,405

at night every night, and then

that placement of, of just one.

598

00:32:06,435 --> 00:32:07,005

Yes.

599

00:32:07,035 --> 00:32:07,365

Yeah.

600

00:32:07,425 --> 00:32:12,795

The changes of routine, the way the

changes in the way you communicate, um.

601

00:32:13,365 --> 00:32:17,295

In how you're seen, you know,

now you're a widower, you know?

602

00:32:17,955 --> 00:32:18,105

Yeah.

603

00:32:18,105 --> 00:32:18,825

That sort of thing.

604

00:32:18,945 --> 00:32:20,505

We're very quick to label, aren't we?

605

00:32:20,505 --> 00:32:21,795

Yes, absolutely.

606

00:32:21,855 --> 00:32:27,945

So, um, 10 days afterwards isn't,

um, they're not over things yet.

607

00:32:28,095 --> 00:32:32,445

They're really just at the

start of their grieving.

608

00:32:32,805 --> 00:32:37,155

So I just say, you know,

how, how was everything?

609

00:32:37,155 --> 00:32:39,375

How was the wake or the reception?

610

00:32:39,375 --> 00:32:42,825

Or, you know, how are you

traveling since I saw you?

611

00:32:43,905 --> 00:32:47,445

Um, might talk about the funeral

a little bit or whatever.

612

00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,075

And I, and I'll often say, well,

you know, you can always ring

613

00:32:51,075 --> 00:32:52,215

if you need someone to chat to.

614

00:32:53,445 --> 00:32:56,985

And yeah, but it's just

another little point.

615

00:32:57,285 --> 00:33:02,145

And then usually at the, um, yearly

mark, the first anniversary can

616

00:33:02,145 --> 00:33:04,065

be one of the toughest times.

617

00:33:04,575 --> 00:33:06,375

I'll always send a card in the mail.

618

00:33:06,375 --> 00:33:08,295

Very old fashioned thing to do.

619

00:33:09,015 --> 00:33:09,315

Ah, such a

620

00:33:09,315 --> 00:33:10,185

lovely thing to do

621

00:33:10,185 --> 00:33:10,395

though.

622

00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:10,600

Yeah.

623

00:33:10,995 --> 00:33:15,435

So I just, I'm thinking of you, it's the

first anniversary can be a tough day.

624

00:33:16,635 --> 00:33:22,725

Um, you know, and wish you, I hope

there's been some blessings for you in the

625

00:33:22,725 --> 00:33:25,004

year along with the sadness that you feel.

626

00:33:25,065 --> 00:33:28,485

So Yeah, it's just the

keep going sort of thing.

627

00:33:28,935 --> 00:33:33,135

Of course, you know, some people just

get right on with things, but a lot

628

00:33:33,135 --> 00:33:36,075

of grief can still go unacknowledged.

629

00:33:36,495 --> 00:33:36,855

Yeah.

630

00:33:38,265 --> 00:33:41,955

And when you say unacknowledged,

what grief were you, comes

631

00:33:41,955 --> 00:33:43,065

to mind when you say that?

632

00:33:43,754 --> 00:33:51,615

Uh, I think with say siblings,

because that was my experience.

633

00:33:53,550 --> 00:33:58,080

I can remember my mother saying

to me, you wouldn't remember that.

634

00:33:58,530 --> 00:34:01,410

You know, why are you

asking about that Mom?

635

00:34:01,410 --> 00:34:09,060

Mom, you could not talk about Karen in

my lifetime with her about, about it.

636

00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:10,320

You wouldn't remember.

637

00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:15,030

So, you know, so it was so

painful for her, but I'd lost,

638

00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:16,710

as I said, my best friend.

639

00:34:17,460 --> 00:34:22,350

So I think, you know, I try

to encourage people to include

640

00:34:22,350 --> 00:34:23,940

the children at the ceremony.

641

00:34:23,970 --> 00:34:27,300

I don't mind if kids are running up and

down the aisle in a sense, you know,

642

00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:32,850

it's good if they learn respect and

quietness at those times, but I think

643

00:34:32,850 --> 00:34:34,740

it's good to include children in it.

644

00:34:34,740 --> 00:34:36,000

It's a part of life.

645

00:34:36,060 --> 00:34:37,260

This is a part of life.

646

00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:44,730

Um, so I think siblings loss can be

unacknowledged if, um, if siblings died

647

00:34:44,730 --> 00:34:46,740

or if their mom or dad's died, you know?

648

00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,010

Um, also maybe with the.

649

00:34:51,465 --> 00:34:55,455

Young people now and there's

a dreadful amount of suicides.

650

00:34:55,455 --> 00:35:01,965

You know, uh, just keeping on top

of that with young people where

651

00:35:01,965 --> 00:35:06,165

they're at, you know, like yeah.

652

00:35:06,165 --> 00:35:07,665

What's available to them.

653

00:35:07,670 --> 00:35:07,700

'cause

654

00:35:10,335 --> 00:35:15,255

they even down the track, you know,

six months, a year down the track,

655

00:35:15,255 --> 00:35:17,085

some are still really hurting.

656

00:35:17,445 --> 00:35:24,465

Um, yeah, so grief counseling is a big,

big role to play and luckily we are more

657

00:35:24,465 --> 00:35:31,155

aware of that now, but, uh, I still think

you're meant to just get on, you know?

658

00:35:31,695 --> 00:35:33,585

People want you to get on with your grief.

659

00:35:33,870 --> 00:35:34,695

Yeah, yeah.

660

00:35:34,695 --> 00:35:35,205

The, um,

661

00:35:35,385 --> 00:35:40,725

the, the old, the old, uh, you know,

misconception of grief has stages and

662

00:35:40,725 --> 00:35:46,455

there's a set period of time for someone

to grieve is, is a, a challenge I think

663

00:35:46,455 --> 00:35:48,765

we still have to continually talk about.

664

00:35:48,765 --> 00:35:49,185

Yeah,

665

00:35:49,425 --> 00:35:49,965

totally.

666

00:35:50,295 --> 00:35:54,855

And, and I, I just say even when you've

got your religious or your spiritual

667

00:35:54,855 --> 00:36:01,485

beliefs, grief is still a hard road

and life's full of buttons and downs,

668

00:36:01,485 --> 00:36:07,935

but grief is a really deep, deep down,

you know, so, but if you have a belief

669

00:36:07,935 --> 00:36:12,705

that there's more than just this world,

that if there was love between you

670

00:36:12,705 --> 00:36:18,435

and the person that has died, that

is eternal, you will see them again.

671

00:36:19,095 --> 00:36:22,275

Uh, you know, the spiritual world

is just there and the person

672

00:36:22,275 --> 00:36:26,390

who's died, they don't, they'll

send you signs if you're open.

673

00:36:27,165 --> 00:36:30,795

You know that they're, they're allowed

to come and visit you from time to time.

674

00:36:31,424 --> 00:36:33,795

Um, yeah.

675

00:36:33,795 --> 00:36:37,695

So I think if you've got that

belief that there's more than

676

00:36:37,695 --> 00:36:41,625

here, you can stay strong in that.

677

00:36:41,805 --> 00:36:45,615

Like, you've still gotta

grieve, but there's hope.

678

00:36:45,915 --> 00:36:46,634

There is hope.

679

00:36:46,904 --> 00:36:47,355

Yeah.

680

00:36:48,075 --> 00:36:51,765

Um, yeah, I think that's it.

681

00:36:52,005 --> 00:36:57,674

And, and tell me, Leonie, you have

mentioned you've been an actress,

682

00:36:57,674 --> 00:36:59,384

you even quoted Shakespeare.

683

00:36:59,895 --> 00:37:04,154

Uh, I'm sure your, your skills as an

actress coming very much handy when you're

684

00:37:04,154 --> 00:37:08,235

standing in front of an audience like

you, you are challenging either side.

685

00:37:08,295 --> 00:37:09,855

Families separated.

686

00:37:09,855 --> 00:37:09,915

Yeah.

687

00:37:10,335 --> 00:37:12,015

Would've come into very good play.

688

00:37:12,015 --> 00:37:16,424

Then tell me about your transition

professionally, how you've moved from,

689

00:37:16,424 --> 00:37:19,935

from those different roles to what

you're doing now and you know, have

690

00:37:19,935 --> 00:37:22,305

been doing for quite some time now.

691

00:37:22,310 --> 00:37:22,529

Um.

692

00:37:24,255 --> 00:37:29,445

Okay, so let me just say, I believe when

we incarnate in this world, we have a

693

00:37:29,445 --> 00:37:31,785

purpose that we are meant to fulfill.

694

00:37:32,565 --> 00:37:38,475

And as I say, that jumping off

point was my sister's death.

695

00:37:41,055 --> 00:37:43,245

I was drawn to the theater.

696

00:37:43,785 --> 00:37:44,355

Uh,

697

00:37:46,635 --> 00:37:52,905

I, I think it was somehow filling

me up in some way, gaining

698

00:37:52,905 --> 00:38:02,265

confidence or, um, an expression

of something that was innately me.

699

00:38:02,325 --> 00:38:08,895

I think that I came in with, uh,

this creative expression in that way.

700

00:38:08,895 --> 00:38:12,165

Some people come in as

artists, whatever, writers.

701

00:38:12,885 --> 00:38:18,045

Um, and then it came to a

point where I could no longer.

702

00:38:19,710 --> 00:38:24,870

Uh, played the ingenue roles and

I looked too young to play the

703

00:38:24,870 --> 00:38:29,700

mother or the grandmother, so

I kind of stopped getting work.

704

00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,920

And so then I thought, well,

what, what can I do now?

705

00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,285

And I, and I somehow had always

been interested in death.

706

00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:42,690

And even in the, one of the companies

I worked with, I helped write a

707

00:38:42,690 --> 00:38:48,390

play about grandma dying and it went

round to schools and nursing homes.

708

00:38:49,424 --> 00:38:52,755

Looking back over her

life and reliving things.

709

00:38:52,755 --> 00:38:59,055

We use puppetry and music and

um, so I thought, ah, yes,

710

00:38:59,055 --> 00:39:00,735

it's always been there somehow.

711

00:39:00,735 --> 00:39:05,085

So I went to a day seminar.

712

00:39:05,085 --> 00:39:10,065

I saw something advertised in the

funeral industry, and I sat at a table

713

00:39:10,065 --> 00:39:14,145

with someone and said, I'm interested

to work in the funeral industry.

714

00:39:14,145 --> 00:39:16,065

And they pointed, see

that lady over there?

715

00:39:16,365 --> 00:39:20,415

She's starting up White

lady funerals in Melbourne.

716

00:39:21,345 --> 00:39:22,605

You might get a job there.

717

00:39:22,605 --> 00:39:23,444

So I did.

718

00:39:23,745 --> 00:39:24,525

And then I did.

719

00:39:25,424 --> 00:39:26,025

So, wow.

720

00:39:26,025 --> 00:39:27,555

So yeah.

721

00:39:27,615 --> 00:39:32,985

Uh, and from nursing, because in my

nursing career I did a lot of palliative

722

00:39:32,985 --> 00:39:35,355

care nursing and I really liked it.

723

00:39:35,355 --> 00:39:41,535

I worked with the AIDS boys in

up in Kings Cross in, um, in, uh,

724

00:39:41,565 --> 00:39:44,714

Sydney at the, uh, hospice up there.

725

00:39:45,615 --> 00:39:47,350

Um, and.

726

00:39:48,300 --> 00:39:50,100

So I learned a lot there.

727

00:39:50,550 --> 00:39:53,595

And what period of time

was that, that role up there?

728

00:39:53,595 --> 00:39:54,690

Um, I'm trying to think.

729

00:39:54,690 --> 00:39:57,870

That was, uh, in my forties.

730

00:39:58,110 --> 00:40:02,370

Yeah, my late in my early,

late thirties, early forties.

731

00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:08,220

I worked in that, that was when, you

know, there was, uh, Australia was

732

00:40:08,220 --> 00:40:14,340

leading, leading, uh, on, uh, caring

for the AIDS boys at that time.

733

00:40:14,340 --> 00:40:19,230

And not just boys, but mainly with nurse,

nurse, the gay community at that time.

734

00:40:20,010 --> 00:40:25,320

Um, yeah, so I, I learned a lot

there and saw a lot of, of course,

735

00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:29,400

in palliative care you see a lot of

death and different ways people die.

736

00:40:29,730 --> 00:40:32,250

I saw how people fought it sometimes.

737

00:40:32,550 --> 00:40:34,590

I saw how people surrendered to it.

738

00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:39,900

I saw people that had lots of friends

and family around them, and the

739

00:40:39,900 --> 00:40:41,490

love that was there in the room.

740

00:40:41,730 --> 00:40:43,530

I saw people die alone.

741

00:40:43,890 --> 00:40:45,930

I saw people die wretchedly.

742

00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:47,700

I saw people die.

743

00:40:48,075 --> 00:40:52,904

Just serenely, you know, saw

people die in my arms, you know?

744

00:40:52,904 --> 00:40:56,085

So, um, yeah.

745

00:40:56,145 --> 00:41:00,975

So in, doesn't sound like there's

any uniform way in which people died.

746

00:41:01,130 --> 00:41:01,350

No.

747

00:41:01,665 --> 00:41:01,995

No.

748

00:41:02,685 --> 00:41:05,745

And you know, everyone likes

to write in the newspaper.

749

00:41:05,835 --> 00:41:07,755

You know, Mary died peacefully.

750

00:41:08,505 --> 00:41:10,815

Well, what about joyfully?

751

00:41:10,815 --> 00:41:12,825

What about graciously?

752

00:41:12,915 --> 00:41:14,415

What about indignant?

753

00:41:14,775 --> 00:41:18,075

What about ferociously?

754

00:41:18,075 --> 00:41:18,990

What about, yeah.

755

00:41:20,355 --> 00:41:20,595

I love

756

00:41:20,595 --> 00:41:20,865

that.

757

00:41:20,865 --> 00:41:20,905

Yeah, I love that.

758

00:41:20,905 --> 00:41:22,575

So I, I, I agree with you.

759

00:41:22,575 --> 00:41:27,470

I think that we should actually expand our

repertoire of, of how we describe that.

760

00:41:27,855 --> 00:41:28,694

I think that's great.

761

00:41:28,964 --> 00:41:31,214

I think though, why we say peacefully?

762

00:41:31,245 --> 00:41:37,935

'cause usually in those last moments

before we die, there is a recognition.

763

00:41:38,205 --> 00:41:38,835

That's it.

764

00:41:39,765 --> 00:41:45,225

Like I, I'm saying spiritually

and con, uh, subconsciously.

765

00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:47,265

Oh, the, that's it.

766

00:41:47,790 --> 00:41:49,500

I am going and then you're gone.

767

00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:57,180

So there is a surrender in those last

maybe minute or two of, of you dying.

768

00:41:58,020 --> 00:41:59,549

And that's something obviously

769

00:41:59,939 --> 00:42:03,089

you have physically seen

too, in your experience.

770

00:42:03,390 --> 00:42:05,220

Yes, yes, yes.

771

00:42:05,399 --> 00:42:11,279

And how much do you think what you've

witnessed, uh, in person and, and,

772

00:42:11,279 --> 00:42:15,990

and those deaths that you think about,

how much has then that supported

773

00:42:15,990 --> 00:42:18,509

where your spirituality has grown?

774

00:42:18,689 --> 00:42:19,140

Mm.

775

00:42:22,049 --> 00:42:28,950

Well, I think it's just seeing

life, experiencing life.

776

00:42:29,759 --> 00:42:36,120

And I don't see a spiritual

life being separate from life.

777

00:42:36,990 --> 00:42:38,339

It's just is.

778

00:42:39,660 --> 00:42:41,729

And yeah.

779

00:42:41,729 --> 00:42:45,240

So I just think it's informed my purpose.

780

00:42:46,125 --> 00:42:49,694

And I think I'm a healer

of work with words.

781

00:42:50,415 --> 00:42:52,815

You know, I, I did the healing as a nurse.

782

00:42:52,815 --> 00:42:54,435

I know how to comfort people.

783

00:42:54,435 --> 00:42:58,185

I know how to make them

feel comfortable in a bed.

784

00:42:58,274 --> 00:43:01,634

I usually can see what's needed there.

785

00:43:01,634 --> 00:43:04,365

So I learned those basic skills.

786

00:43:04,365 --> 00:43:11,234

Then as an actress, I learned

how to, uh, create space.

787

00:43:11,714 --> 00:43:16,725

How that, how you said something

could change the meaning of

788

00:43:16,725 --> 00:43:18,765

a sentence, the intonation.

789

00:43:19,274 --> 00:43:26,085

Um, and I probably didn't learn to be,

well, as an actress, you're trying to

790

00:43:26,085 --> 00:43:29,955

come across as being really real, but

of course you're acting, aren't you?

791

00:43:30,589 --> 00:43:37,095

So, so, but that taught me how to

create space, how to make sound, how

792

00:43:37,095 --> 00:43:41,170

to, um, bring, bring an audience in.

793

00:43:41,535 --> 00:43:44,500

Uh, seduce them in a way, you know?

794

00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:44,980

Mm-hmm.

795

00:43:45,065 --> 00:43:47,085

And relive the experience.

796

00:43:47,115 --> 00:43:49,964

'cause theater is actually

reflecting back life.

797

00:43:50,024 --> 00:43:50,295

Yeah.

798

00:43:51,134 --> 00:43:58,515

And then, um, uh, as a funeral director,

I was getting all the knowledge, what was

799

00:43:58,515 --> 00:44:07,845

going on in the background, what, how to

look after a deceased body, how, uh, that,

800

00:44:09,315 --> 00:44:16,785

that we, we still have to that body that,

that, that body carried that person, that

801

00:44:16,785 --> 00:44:21,404

spirit around for, you know, 93 years.

802

00:44:21,404 --> 00:44:25,065

You know, you honor that and you

look after it and care for it.

803

00:44:25,065 --> 00:44:30,315

So, um, and then transport it to

a crem and then you see it go into

804

00:44:30,315 --> 00:44:33,674

a cremator or into the ground.

805

00:44:33,674 --> 00:44:40,549

And so I feel all of those

practical things just.

806

00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:48,090

Um, built on, it's, to me, it's

just a natural progression or just a

807

00:44:48,090 --> 00:44:52,470

natural part of making up who I am.

808

00:44:52,620 --> 00:44:53,070

Yeah.

809

00:44:53,910 --> 00:44:56,700

And when you had that

conversation with the lady who

810

00:44:56,700 --> 00:44:58,290

was starting White Lady Funerals?

811

00:44:58,290 --> 00:44:58,710

Yes.

812

00:44:58,770 --> 00:44:58,860

Yeah.

813

00:44:59,430 --> 00:45:02,910

Was that when you started to become

a funeral director at that point?

814

00:45:02,910 --> 00:45:06,930

Yes, at that point I think she,

she took my name and number

815

00:45:06,930 --> 00:45:08,550

and said, I'll give you a call.

816

00:45:08,970 --> 00:45:12,300

We're just sorting out staffing

levels, et cetera, et cetera.

817

00:45:12,300 --> 00:45:14,910

And then she called me and

I think I started, you know,

818

00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:16,200

she rang me on the Friday.

819

00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:17,610

I started on the Monday.

820

00:45:18,180 --> 00:45:26,880

Um, yeah, so it was, uh,

and of course kind of thing.

821

00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:32,190

So from, um, yeah, theater

and then straight into that.

822

00:45:32,940 --> 00:45:37,710

And then the reason I started

to do Celebrancy work because

823

00:45:37,830 --> 00:45:39,150

families would come in.

824

00:45:40,275 --> 00:45:46,455

Who didn't want a priest or clergy,

but they couldn't afford a celebrant.

825

00:45:46,455 --> 00:45:49,485

'cause a celebrant costs

more than, than the priest.

826

00:45:51,405 --> 00:46:00,405

I was already employed and I watched how

celebrants did it, so I volunteered, well

827

00:46:00,465 --> 00:46:02,655

I could do that little ceremony for them.

828

00:46:03,045 --> 00:46:05,715

It's in the chapel, I'm already on salary.

829

00:46:06,225 --> 00:46:09,045

Um, I can write something up for them.

830

00:46:09,525 --> 00:46:11,655

So that's how I got my smarts.

831

00:46:11,655 --> 00:46:12,315

Really.

832

00:46:12,345 --> 00:46:12,795

Wow.

833

00:46:12,945 --> 00:46:14,950

So it was just an evolution

that happened and Yeah.

834

00:46:15,045 --> 00:46:20,505

And so that's now at my age, I'm looking

back from that 3-year-old little girl.

835

00:46:20,505 --> 00:46:21,435

She wasn't quite three.

836

00:46:21,765 --> 00:46:29,955

And I just see each my time in the Church

of Christ, how that was, um, 'cause home

837

00:46:29,955 --> 00:46:37,030

life was pretty awful, but I was nurtured

as a child in the church, so I had.

838

00:46:38,115 --> 00:46:40,965

Uh, a growing love of spirit.

839

00:46:41,145 --> 00:46:45,225

Then, although as I said before, I

would've called it God then, but I, I

840

00:46:45,225 --> 00:46:50,655

see that and evolving into, um, nursing.

841

00:46:50,865 --> 00:46:54,255

Uh, I just, one day,

well, it's actually funny.

842

00:46:54,255 --> 00:46:59,025

I worked in a bank for a year

after I left school and they had an

843

00:46:59,025 --> 00:47:05,115

upstairs bathroom and I was coming

down the steps from the bathroom

844

00:47:05,205 --> 00:47:07,755

and I heard a voice say, be a nurse.

845

00:47:08,985 --> 00:47:12,915

And I turned around, thought

someone was behind me talking to

846

00:47:12,915 --> 00:47:14,895

me, and there was no one there.

847

00:47:14,895 --> 00:47:15,915

It was my guide.

848

00:47:15,915 --> 00:47:18,495

I worked out later be a nurse.

849

00:47:19,335 --> 00:47:20,655

Isn't that amazing?

850

00:47:20,835 --> 00:47:20,895

Yeah.

851

00:47:20,895 --> 00:47:22,785

And so, oh, I thought, oh.

852

00:47:23,115 --> 00:47:29,865

And there, so I, um, at the time,

uh, I saw an, I think in local

853

00:47:29,865 --> 00:47:36,270

newspaper, I. They were taking their

next, uh, lot of enrollments at the,

854

00:47:36,450 --> 00:47:38,130

at the hospital, local hospital.

855

00:47:38,910 --> 00:47:43,440

And so I signed up next minute, I'm

getting fitted out for a uniform and,

856

00:47:44,220 --> 00:47:46,500

and learning how to empty a bed pan.

857

00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:48,600

Wow.

858

00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:52,980

It sounds like that there's been

certain moments in your life

859

00:47:52,980 --> 00:47:53,070

Yes.

860

00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:57,360

Where it seems like

everything's aligned very well

861

00:47:57,780 --> 00:47:57,990

862

00:47:57,990 --> 00:48:00,540

those moments where you

were sort of at a crossroad.

863

00:48:00,795 --> 00:48:01,015

Yes.

864

00:48:02,035 --> 00:48:08,190

And yes, I would totally agree,

but I had to be open to that.

865

00:48:08,910 --> 00:48:10,590

I had to hear it, didn't I?

866

00:48:11,130 --> 00:48:15,510

Um, and that's not to say I haven't gone

off track at times in my life, you know?

867

00:48:17,070 --> 00:48:17,460

But.

868

00:48:18,134 --> 00:48:26,535

Uh, I believe that I can see the pattern,

I can see the journey, I can see, um,

869

00:48:26,625 --> 00:48:29,685

who helped me get to the next bit.

870

00:48:30,345 --> 00:48:34,335

And we all have that if we are

open to seeing that, you know,

871

00:48:35,055 --> 00:48:37,095

we are all in our minds too much.

872

00:48:37,095 --> 00:48:40,335

And that's what I've been learning

with my spiritual teachers now

873

00:48:41,055 --> 00:48:43,964

that it's all in how we feel.

874

00:48:44,714 --> 00:48:49,694

And if you're in touch with your

feelings, and that's what I try to, uh,

875

00:48:50,174 --> 00:48:55,424

put into my funerals, spiritual funerals

and honor funerals, a feeling funeral.

876

00:48:56,654 --> 00:48:59,265

We are here for a certain period of time.

877

00:48:59,265 --> 00:49:03,495

We dunno if it's like my sister

Karen, for four years or if

878

00:49:03,495 --> 00:49:05,745

you're here for 104 years.

879

00:49:06,345 --> 00:49:08,535

Um, how do you wanna live that life?

880

00:49:08,595 --> 00:49:13,754

You know what, and, and if I get people to

reflect on their loved one's life, right?

881

00:49:13,754 --> 00:49:14,654

What if they taught.

882

00:49:16,065 --> 00:49:19,005

What have you learned from

being, what did you teach them?

883

00:49:19,455 --> 00:49:27,465

You know, and a gratitude for those

learnings and how to now you want to

884

00:49:27,465 --> 00:49:30,465

live your life, how do you wanna go on?

885

00:49:31,154 --> 00:49:35,595

'cause there's, I think, you know,

everyone wants to be loved and understood.

886

00:49:35,865 --> 00:49:41,415

Everybody also wants to have made

a difference to someone somewhere

887

00:49:41,415 --> 00:49:45,285

in the world that they haven't

lived their lives for nothing.

888

00:49:46,424 --> 00:49:50,805

And thirdly, we all don't wanna die

alone with no one caring about us.

889

00:49:52,125 --> 00:49:57,944

So I try, you know, that's

behind everything I try and do in

890

00:49:57,944 --> 00:50:04,665

the ceremonies that, yeah, get people

to try and look at a bigger picture.

891

00:50:05,325 --> 00:50:07,515

And what am I going to

do with my life now?

892

00:50:08,205 --> 00:50:09,080

Because where am I heading?

893

00:50:09,915 --> 00:50:14,595

You know, and I often say at the end of

a funeral when I'm giving the closing

894

00:50:14,595 --> 00:50:19,845

words, you know, some people in the

room believe Mary's now traveling

895

00:50:19,845 --> 00:50:22,035

on beyond this life in spirit.

896

00:50:22,425 --> 00:50:26,025

Others believe with her last

breath, she was no more.

897

00:50:26,715 --> 00:50:29,175

Our time to know will come soon enough.

898

00:50:29,715 --> 00:50:29,775

Yeah.

899

00:50:29,775 --> 00:50:34,695

But in the meantime, you can believe

that all life has meaning and purpose.

900

00:50:35,565 --> 00:50:39,645

So we thank Mary for all she's

taught us, you know, taught you.

901

00:50:40,005 --> 00:50:44,055

I always refer it back to them,

you know, we thank Mary for all

902

00:50:44,055 --> 00:50:46,005

she's done for you, you know?

903

00:50:47,175 --> 00:50:48,315

And yeah.

904

00:50:50,130 --> 00:50:55,095

And it sounds like you, you briefly

referenced it there, and we, we don't

905

00:50:55,095 --> 00:50:58,275

have to go there if you don't want

to, but you, you, you mentioned that

906

00:50:58,635 --> 00:51:01,095

your home life, uh, was not ideal.

907

00:51:01,095 --> 00:51:01,185

Mm-hmm.

908

00:51:01,455 --> 00:51:03,625

Um, was that.

909

00:51:03,915 --> 00:51:07,545

Well, I suppose it's very hard

to tell given the fact that, you

910

00:51:07,545 --> 00:51:11,745

know, Karen died at the age of

four mm. And you were only three.

911

00:51:11,745 --> 00:51:12,165

Three.

912

00:51:12,165 --> 00:51:12,525

Yeah.

913

00:51:12,525 --> 00:51:14,955

So it's very difficult to tell

whether that was the catalyst

914

00:51:14,955 --> 00:51:19,305

that perhaps, you know, made,

made life more traumatic for you.

915

00:51:19,305 --> 00:51:22,545

Mm. Um, or I should ask, was it traumatic?

916

00:51:22,755 --> 00:51:28,815

What, what was it that, um,

made the, the Church of Christ

917

00:51:29,384 --> 00:51:31,005

far more appealing than, than

918

00:51:31,005 --> 00:51:32,805

what was, was it heard at home?

919

00:51:33,555 --> 00:51:38,745

Uh, well, as I said at the beginning,

grief shaped our family and my

920

00:51:38,745 --> 00:51:41,055

father drank, he was an alcoholic.

921

00:51:41,145 --> 00:51:42,285

Well, he drank more.

922

00:51:43,605 --> 00:51:46,154

My mother closed down.

923

00:51:47,205 --> 00:51:53,295

And, you know, in a sense, the

reason they got married was because

924

00:51:53,295 --> 00:51:54,675

mom was pregnant with Karen.

925

00:51:55,665 --> 00:51:57,585

We only found out this later at years.

926

00:51:57,585 --> 00:52:02,985

And sorry mom, if that upset you,

but, um, uh, she doesn't care now.

927

00:52:03,615 --> 00:52:08,055

Um, yeah, so I think in that

928

00:52:10,095 --> 00:52:12,765

my parents were AWOL really.

929

00:52:13,740 --> 00:52:20,775

So I, you know, I was an observer right

from the, the get go, uh, alright,

930

00:52:20,895 --> 00:52:28,635

this is, this is different, you know,

and yeah, and I think mom just worked.

931

00:52:29,175 --> 00:52:34,875

Uh, she was in that mode of

just getting things done.

932

00:52:35,445 --> 00:52:41,925

She had another baby, my other sister

was in a pram, you know, so kids have

933

00:52:41,925 --> 00:52:45,015

to be fed, watered, dressed, cleaned.

934

00:52:45,555 --> 00:52:46,395

She got on.

935

00:52:46,425 --> 00:52:47,805

That was her way of coping.

936

00:52:47,805 --> 00:52:49,725

Dad's was to drink.

937

00:52:50,984 --> 00:52:53,535

So there was always that trauma.

938

00:52:53,535 --> 00:52:57,975

So I suppose this is very personal,

but I suppose I grew up not

939

00:52:57,975 --> 00:52:59,805

wanting a marriage like that.

940

00:52:59,865 --> 00:52:59,955

Mm-hmm.

941

00:53:00,194 --> 00:53:04,305

Not wanting a man that drank

the money away, you know?

942

00:53:04,665 --> 00:53:10,875

Um, but of course we're all our mothers,

us girls, you know, I, I absorbed all

943

00:53:10,875 --> 00:53:16,305

that stress and grief and responsibility

trying to bring them back together.

944

00:53:16,875 --> 00:53:19,605

You know, Hey, look at me, I'm here.

945

00:53:19,665 --> 00:53:23,295

Well, you know, dad's hurting,

mom's hurting, but you know, little

946

00:53:23,295 --> 00:53:25,245

child trying to make things right.

947

00:53:25,634 --> 00:53:28,545

And I think I've tried to

be a good girl all my life.

948

00:53:28,905 --> 00:53:30,555

I've tried to fix things.

949

00:53:30,795 --> 00:53:35,205

I've tried to make people feel

better, so hence the nursing.

950

00:53:35,205 --> 00:53:36,975

Hence, you know, it's a really

951

00:53:36,975 --> 00:53:38,685

interesting that you use that term.

952

00:53:38,685 --> 00:53:39,435

Good girl.

953

00:53:39,465 --> 00:53:39,615

Mm-hmm.

954

00:53:39,855 --> 00:53:45,255

I, um, I recently attended a, a,

a play, uh, that there was a panel

955

00:53:45,255 --> 00:53:50,055

discussion afterwards and one of the,

um, the women who was on the panel

956

00:53:50,055 --> 00:53:56,805

was, um, Fabian ve and she is a,

a, a well-known scholar, uh, in and

957

00:53:56,805 --> 00:53:59,865

talks about the good girl a lot.

958

00:53:59,925 --> 00:54:00,075

Mm-hmm.

959

00:54:00,405 --> 00:54:05,025

Uh, and about how that's really

forced on women and it's generally,

960

00:54:05,355 --> 00:54:07,185

you know, from, from that Yeah.

961

00:54:07,185 --> 00:54:12,345

You know, that background of sometimes

trauma, uh, that role that we always

962

00:54:12,345 --> 00:54:16,365

feel like we have to bring things

together and fix them and be the carer.

963

00:54:16,485 --> 00:54:16,725

Yeah.

964

00:54:16,785 --> 00:54:21,945

And we end up predominantly in those roles

that are generally unpaid or lower paid

965

00:54:21,945 --> 00:54:27,105

roles that are caring for family and,

and those, and it is really interesting.

966

00:54:27,405 --> 00:54:27,555

Yeah.

967

00:54:27,585 --> 00:54:28,185

Um.

968

00:54:28,590 --> 00:54:29,220

How

969

00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:31,380

that is the perfect term for it.

970

00:54:31,380 --> 00:54:31,980

Yes.

971

00:54:32,460 --> 00:54:33,360

Being a good girl.

972

00:54:33,930 --> 00:54:34,170

Yes.

973

00:54:34,345 --> 00:54:37,680

I think I, I tried not to make waves.

974

00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:39,390

Mm. Not to upset them.

975

00:54:39,510 --> 00:54:46,320

You know, you, you, you feel all that

as a little kid with your sponge for

976

00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,630

what's going on in, in the family.

977

00:54:49,470 --> 00:54:54,120

But spiritually we would

say, that's my karma.

978

00:54:54,660 --> 00:54:56,820

That's alright.

979

00:54:56,820 --> 00:54:59,160

What are you gonna do with

those feelings, Leonie?

980

00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:02,310

Are you going to feel sorry

for yourself, for your life?

981

00:55:02,310 --> 00:55:03,930

Are you gonna make something of that?

982

00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:07,290

That's a whole journey.

983

00:55:07,500 --> 00:55:07,590

Mm-hmm.

984

00:55:07,830 --> 00:55:08,250

Isn't it?

985

00:55:08,850 --> 00:55:14,760

But I can say from that point in my

life, I've probably been a sad child.

986

00:55:15,150 --> 00:55:17,940

Although I love the theater

and love to make people laugh.

987

00:55:18,240 --> 00:55:20,280

And I think I'm good

at making people laugh.

988

00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:24,705

I. Also I'm in touch with that

sadness and I think that what helps

989

00:55:24,705 --> 00:55:30,194

me be a good funeral celebrant

because I can feel the person's

990

00:55:30,194 --> 00:55:32,865

sadness too and be there with them.

991

00:55:33,795 --> 00:55:35,955

But it's also, I don't take it on.

992

00:55:35,955 --> 00:55:43,214

I'm not there to, uh, take away

your grief or even heal your grief.

993

00:55:43,845 --> 00:55:45,975

I'm not there to make it better.

994

00:55:46,335 --> 00:55:50,654

I'm just there holding your

hand while this is this

995

00:55:50,654 --> 00:55:52,365

vulnerable point in your life.

996

00:55:52,785 --> 00:55:54,645

And then I let it go, you know?

997

00:55:54,765 --> 00:55:59,085

And at that time, just letting you

know there is someone who cares.

998

00:55:59,325 --> 00:56:02,895

You might think no one cares, but

there's somebody who cares for that

999

00:56:02,895 --> 00:56:05,504

moment in time on your journey.

1000

00:56:06,315 --> 00:56:06,765

Yeah.

1001

00:56:07,515 --> 00:56:13,845

So I'm being a good person now

rather than trying to be a good girl.

1002

00:56:13,995 --> 00:56:14,174

Yeah.

1003

00:56:16,089 --> 00:56:19,125

Look, that doesn't mean you

don't slip back into old habits.

1004

00:56:19,950 --> 00:56:21,270

On the spiritual journey.

1005

00:56:21,270 --> 00:56:26,850

In all I've learned, I've seen how I've

done that, been a people pleaser or tried

1006

00:56:26,850 --> 00:56:29,370

to make things better for everybody.

1007

00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:31,950

Uh, but you can turn it around.

1008

00:56:32,010 --> 00:56:36,420

Yes, I try to make things

better, but in a good way.

1009

00:56:36,420 --> 00:56:43,950

That's helpful or honest or caring or,

you know, without, at my own detriment.

1010

00:56:44,610 --> 00:56:47,070

It's interesting 'cause you keep

coming back and referring to

1011

00:56:47,070 --> 00:56:50,280

something, a word that seems to be

very strong with you is honesty.

1012

00:56:50,370 --> 00:56:50,670

Yes.

1013

00:56:50,970 --> 00:56:54,960

And, and making sure that you're being

honest in, in what's reflected Yes.

1014

00:56:55,020 --> 00:56:56,820

When we reminisce about that person.

1015

00:56:56,820 --> 00:56:56,940

Yes.

1016

00:56:57,300 --> 00:56:58,050

Who's died.

1017

00:56:58,110 --> 00:56:58,650

Yes.

1018

00:56:59,010 --> 00:57:05,820

And it's very hard, as I said

earlier to I, I always ask

1019

00:57:05,820 --> 00:57:07,680

people, please tell me the truth.

1020

00:57:08,430 --> 00:57:12,960

Everything I hear today doesn't

necessarily go in the ceremony, but it

1021

00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:15,270

helps me understand you as a family.

1022

00:57:15,270 --> 00:57:17,700

Helps me understand the

person who's passed.

1023

00:57:20,205 --> 00:57:22,875

And as I say, it's very

hard to tell the truth.

1024

00:57:22,875 --> 00:57:27,285

And some things will come, will

come out, you know, and I can tune

1025

00:57:27,285 --> 00:57:29,325

into my guide and find out, oh yeah.

1026

00:57:29,445 --> 00:57:33,075

Or feel more what's happened

for that one or this one.

1027

00:57:33,555 --> 00:57:41,985

Um, look, I think honesty, honest

honesty's a hard thing because we all

1028

00:57:41,985 --> 00:57:45,015

wear a face mask in life, don't we?

1029

00:57:45,915 --> 00:57:54,045

And yeah, it's just about being

truly yourself and being on purpose

1030

00:57:54,105 --> 00:57:59,415

and doing, extending yourself to

be the best person that you can be.

1031

00:57:59,535 --> 00:58:00,735

That's being honest.

1032

00:58:01,515 --> 00:58:07,335

Uh, and if you need to tell your

truth, you don't need to hit

1033

00:58:07,335 --> 00:58:08,595

someone over the head with it.

1034

00:58:08,685 --> 00:58:11,445

You do it with kindness, you know?

1035

00:58:11,445 --> 00:58:18,315

So in a ceremony, I may have heard

some things, but I will say, well.

1036

00:58:20,535 --> 00:58:25,365

Uh, the person, they

were wonderful at this.

1037

00:58:25,365 --> 00:58:31,544

They may have been the best landscape

artist ever, you know, but oh boy, could

1038

00:58:31,544 --> 00:58:33,854

they be difficult in such and such?

1039

00:58:34,064 --> 00:58:37,484

It's how you say it, you know,

and people will accept it.

1040

00:58:38,024 --> 00:58:39,645

Um, yeah,

1041

00:58:41,834 --> 00:58:44,984

but I, and I think, I think we've

all been to those funerals where,

1042

00:58:45,495 --> 00:58:47,984

uh, you don't recognize the person

1043

00:58:47,984 --> 00:58:48,615

that they're talking

1044

00:58:48,615 --> 00:58:48,734

about.

1045

00:58:49,995 --> 00:58:51,584

Well, that's what I say to the family.

1046

00:58:51,584 --> 00:58:54,975

It's nothing worse for a celebrant

if people are sitting there going,

1047

00:58:54,975 --> 00:58:56,895

who's that woman talking about?

1048

00:58:56,895 --> 00:58:57,075

You know?

1049

00:58:57,075 --> 00:58:57,375

Yeah.

1050

00:58:57,674 --> 00:59:02,415

You've got, that's where I say in those

simple things of talking with people

1051

00:59:02,475 --> 00:59:05,685

say, we're all shades of black and white.

1052

00:59:05,805 --> 00:59:07,035

There's no judgment here.

1053

00:59:07,424 --> 00:59:11,115

Just, you know, and the questions

asked, what did they teach you?

1054

00:59:11,834 --> 00:59:13,095

What have you taught them?

1055

00:59:13,935 --> 00:59:18,524

What would they say was,

uh, their purpose in life?

1056

00:59:19,529 --> 00:59:23,670

What, you know, what did they

love best about themselves?

1057

00:59:23,700 --> 00:59:24,120

You know?

1058

00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:25,200

Uh,

1059

00:59:28,050 --> 00:59:28,500

yeah.

1060

00:59:28,950 --> 00:59:32,610

What do you think their, if

they look back on their life,

1061

00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:34,470

what would they have regrets?

1062

00:59:34,830 --> 00:59:35,190

You know?

1063

00:59:35,250 --> 00:59:38,670

So I get people to just go a

little bit deeper each time.

1064

00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:39,360

Oh.

1065

00:59:39,540 --> 00:59:42,240

So I feel they're getting a

bit of a counseling session.

1066

00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:42,300

Yeah.

1067

00:59:42,330 --> 00:59:47,040

Without kind of knowing it, but

in that, um, they feel in a safe

1068

00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:48,900

place and then they'll share things.

1069

00:59:48,900 --> 00:59:52,050

And of course I honor, you

know, some people say, well,

1070

00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:54,509

you know, Mary was dreadful.

1071

00:59:54,509 --> 00:59:56,370

You know, she was what?

1072

00:59:56,730 --> 00:59:58,380

But don't say that in the ceremony.

1073

00:59:58,380 --> 01:00:01,140

Leonie, I have to honor that.

1074

01:00:01,170 --> 01:00:04,410

I'm not always in the position I'm of.

1075

01:00:04,815 --> 01:00:09,585

You know, it's not up to me to blurt

out everything about Mary, but to

1076

01:00:09,585 --> 01:00:13,515

create the space where people can

say from their heart and always

1077

01:00:13,515 --> 01:00:14,925

say, it's the things from the heart.

1078

01:00:14,925 --> 01:00:17,205

People want to hear not great things.

1079

01:00:17,205 --> 01:00:21,525

Mary went to school there and then she did

university there, and then she did that.

1080

01:00:21,525 --> 01:00:21,675

There.

1081

01:00:21,675 --> 01:00:28,095

We can all have a list of things we did,

but what have they, what's their legacy?

1082

01:00:28,095 --> 01:00:29,385

What have they taught you?

1083

01:00:30,075 --> 01:00:31,935

How did they love enough?

1084

01:00:32,595 --> 01:00:35,325

Did they, did they do enough?

1085

01:00:35,385 --> 01:00:39,975

Did they, would they feel

satisfied with things now?

1086

01:00:40,665 --> 01:00:41,085

So,

1087

01:00:41,085 --> 01:00:41,265

yeah.

1088

01:00:41,265 --> 01:00:43,365

And have you had seen, uh, as.

1089

01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:47,670

We see more encouragement

for end of life planning.

1090

01:00:47,675 --> 01:00:47,755

Mm-hmm.

1091

01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:52,560

And people perhaps, uh, with voluntary

assisted dying, uh, and, uh, you

1092

01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:56,640

know, the palliative process as well

that we, we have available to us.

1093

01:00:56,760 --> 01:01:02,310

It encourages people to think about

what they want said at their funeral,

1094

01:01:02,550 --> 01:01:06,660

uh, perhaps what they don't want,

send what music they'd like to play.

1095

01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:09,540

Is that helpful if people do that for you?

1096

01:01:09,540 --> 01:01:10,920

In, in preparation?

1097

01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:11,580

Yeah.

1098

01:01:11,580 --> 01:01:13,110

Have you seen an increase in that?

1099

01:01:13,410 --> 01:01:19,170

Um, I think because I'm from the baby

boom in my generation, people are

1100

01:01:19,620 --> 01:01:21,930

thinking about their funerals more.

1101

01:01:22,020 --> 01:01:27,300

And any opportunity I get is

that I like to encourage people,

1102

01:01:27,330 --> 01:01:30,900

even if it's just writing down,

you wanna be buried or cremated.

1103

01:01:31,350 --> 01:01:33,900

Mm. And if where you want to

be buried, is that important?

1104

01:01:33,900 --> 01:01:38,520

Where you're buried, is there a grave

you want to be near or in, you know,

1105

01:01:39,390 --> 01:01:41,760

so family have that question answered.

1106

01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:42,300

Yeah.

1107

01:01:42,415 --> 01:01:42,635

Um.

1108

01:01:44,334 --> 01:01:49,500

Uh, I think what I say to

people is, make a cup of tea.

1109

01:01:50,700 --> 01:01:56,459

Get a pad and paper, and imagine

yourself, if you can, lying in that

1110

01:01:56,459 --> 01:02:02,160

coffin and who's standing around you

and what would you want them to know

1111

01:02:02,490 --> 01:02:04,169

that would help ease their tears?

1112

01:02:05,069 --> 01:02:11,250

What do you, what can you do as

an act of love for those people?

1113

01:02:11,759 --> 01:02:16,109

So, 'cause if you think about parent,

a parent dying and there's, you

1114

01:02:16,109 --> 01:02:20,580

know, five siblings, one of them

will say they were the favorite.

1115

01:02:20,729 --> 01:02:24,029

You know, so they have a better say

in what should happen, you know?

1116

01:02:24,750 --> 01:02:30,689

Um, all, all those, all those

things rise up in people.

1117

01:02:31,154 --> 01:02:32,924

So that's why it's good

to have a will, isn't it?

1118

01:02:33,075 --> 01:02:36,674

It's good to have a will and appoint

an executor because That's right.

1119

01:02:36,674 --> 01:02:38,174

Because they're the ones

that can have the saying.

1120

01:02:38,174 --> 01:02:38,745

That's right.

1121

01:02:39,615 --> 01:02:44,685

But you know, and write down if

there's music you like and poetry

1122

01:02:44,685 --> 01:02:50,384

or whatever, just that gives a PA

person an insight into what's needed,

1123

01:02:50,685 --> 01:02:54,615

what's your, you know, favorite

flower, you know, that sort of thing.

1124

01:02:54,975 --> 01:02:59,745

So even, it doesn't have to be

complicated, but just a few things and put

1125

01:02:59,745 --> 01:03:04,755

the that with your will and let someone

know where your important papers are.

1126

01:03:05,235 --> 01:03:05,325

Mm-hmm.

1127

01:03:05,325 --> 01:03:05,415

Yeah.

1128

01:03:05,415 --> 01:03:05,685

That's,

1129

01:03:05,685 --> 01:03:07,065

that's the other key, isn't it?

1130

01:03:07,065 --> 01:03:07,125

Yeah.

1131

01:03:07,215 --> 01:03:07,395

Yeah.

1132

01:03:07,815 --> 01:03:08,190

That's it.

1133

01:03:09,540 --> 01:03:09,830

Yeah.

1134

01:03:09,930 --> 01:03:12,645

So you're all good with that,

aren't you with your stuff?

1135

01:03:12,674 --> 01:03:13,485

I am.

1136

01:03:13,485 --> 01:03:13,995

I am.

1137

01:03:13,995 --> 01:03:17,775

Well, you know, I think we're all in our

own way trying to encourage that Yes.

1138

01:03:17,805 --> 01:03:19,904

Whatever form or, or shape we can.

1139

01:03:19,995 --> 01:03:20,535

Um, yes.

1140

01:03:20,654 --> 01:03:24,944

I think it's an act of responsibility

for self and an act of love.

1141

01:03:25,305 --> 01:03:25,665

Yeah.

1142

01:03:25,694 --> 01:03:27,165

But I also like to say.

1143

01:03:28,125 --> 01:03:30,975

The funeral is for the people left behind.

1144

01:03:31,964 --> 01:03:34,785

So how do you wanna honor your loved one?

1145

01:03:34,785 --> 01:03:36,404

How do you wanna celebrate them?

1146

01:03:36,404 --> 01:03:42,615

How do you want to, uh, um, encourage

people to learn from their story?

1147

01:03:42,615 --> 01:03:43,575

What do you want to know?

1148

01:03:44,325 --> 01:03:48,585

Because the person who died is actually

beyond all the funeral stuff, really.

1149

01:03:49,245 --> 01:03:50,714

They're onto the next bit.

1150

01:03:51,015 --> 01:03:54,674

You know, it's not a bit of

roses in the spiritual world.

1151

01:03:55,275 --> 01:03:58,095

It's a place of learning

like it is on earth.

1152

01:03:58,634 --> 01:04:02,025

You don't say, oh, rest in peace.

1153

01:04:02,025 --> 01:04:03,315

There's not peace.

1154

01:04:04,335 --> 01:04:07,395

You know, there's only peace if you

feel you fulfilled your purpose,

1155

01:04:07,395 --> 01:04:09,555

or, uh, there's peace in that.

1156

01:04:09,555 --> 01:04:11,205

But then there's more learning, alright?

1157

01:04:11,714 --> 01:04:15,075

It's not, you go up there and

just have a nice time and play

1158

01:04:15,075 --> 01:04:16,995

in a beautiful garden in heaven.

1159

01:04:16,995 --> 01:04:17,295

You know?

1160

01:04:17,685 --> 01:04:18,615

It's not like that.

1161

01:04:19,305 --> 01:04:22,125

It's What do you, what do

you hope it would be for you?

1162

01:04:23,745 --> 01:04:24,255

Well.

1163

01:04:25,935 --> 01:04:32,205

Uh, what we're taught, uh, is that we'll

make our way up there quickly or slowly.

1164

01:04:35,055 --> 01:04:40,275

Um, there's a party waiting for us of

all the loved ones, the people that have

1165

01:04:40,275 --> 01:04:44,595

helped us, our ancestors, but only love.

1166

01:04:44,775 --> 01:04:48,045

There's no one there that you would

never want at your best party.

1167

01:04:48,345 --> 01:04:48,615

Yes.

1168

01:04:49,275 --> 01:04:55,845

And then you, uh, let's put it simply, you

go into a room and watch a big television

1169

01:04:55,845 --> 01:04:58,125

screen and your life played out for you.

1170

01:04:58,995 --> 01:05:04,065

And you will feel every moment that

you've hurt someone or love someone,

1171

01:05:04,215 --> 01:05:10,335

you'll feel every, uh, uh, result

of any action that you've taken.

1172

01:05:11,745 --> 01:05:17,235

You'll see whether you've done

the best you can do or not.

1173

01:05:17,805 --> 01:05:21,855

And in those moments, you

make a vowed yourself.

1174

01:05:21,945 --> 01:05:23,445

I've gotta go back and fix that.

1175

01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:26,190

I've got to Yeah.

1176

01:05:26,370 --> 01:05:27,570

Do better next time.

1177

01:05:28,500 --> 01:05:32,400

And then we start the learning up there.

1178

01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:34,770

So it's like going back

to kindergarten again.

1179

01:05:35,370 --> 01:05:35,940

Okay.

1180

01:05:36,060 --> 01:05:45,120

So, uh, Leonie needs to learn more

about honesty, so we'll teach her

1181

01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:50,130

more so when she goes back next time,

she'll be the star pupil in honesty.

1182

01:05:50,130 --> 01:05:50,490

You know?

1183

01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:53,190

So that's what I'm learning in this life.

1184

01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:56,160

And so there's a cycle of reincarnation.

1185

01:05:56,250 --> 01:05:56,700

Yes.

1186

01:05:56,700 --> 01:05:57,180

Learning.

1187

01:05:57,180 --> 01:06:01,230

And then, so it sounds, it sounds

like the model is very similar to

1188

01:06:02,130 --> 01:06:07,530

perhaps a Christian faith where there's

some sort of life in review process.

1189

01:06:07,530 --> 01:06:07,890

Yes.

1190

01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:10,050

Then there's a learning process.

1191

01:06:10,050 --> 01:06:10,140

Yes.

1192

01:06:10,140 --> 01:06:12,510

Then is a reincarnation process.

1193

01:06:12,510 --> 01:06:12,600

Yes.

1194

01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:16,440

So you can then come

back to a life on earth.

1195

01:06:16,650 --> 01:06:16,950

Yeah.

1196

01:06:17,130 --> 01:06:17,640

To make

1197

01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:18,420

amends.

1198

01:06:18,420 --> 01:06:19,950

To make amends, yes.

1199

01:06:19,950 --> 01:06:23,370

To do better than you did before to, um.

1200

01:06:24,765 --> 01:06:26,205

You know, grow.

1201

01:06:27,045 --> 01:06:28,845

We are meant to grow each time.

1202

01:06:29,175 --> 01:06:29,535

Yeah.

1203

01:06:29,625 --> 01:06:32,385

To be truly what our spirit is.

1204

01:06:32,415 --> 01:06:32,835

Yeah.

1205

01:06:33,735 --> 01:06:36,135

So, yeah.

1206

01:06:36,495 --> 01:06:38,505

The space between What do I want?

1207

01:06:38,565 --> 01:06:44,835

Well, I think we can create, I

think we're also creative up there.

1208

01:06:45,885 --> 01:06:52,305

So I've always wanted a little white

picket fence with a rose arbor, you know,

1209

01:06:54,555 --> 01:06:57,075

lots of animals, of beautiful flowers.

1210

01:06:57,075 --> 01:07:00,165

So I'm hoping they'll let me

live in something like that.

1211

01:07:00,345 --> 01:07:01,010

Oh, fantastic.

1212

01:07:01,245 --> 01:07:04,245

And go off to, to

learning school, you know?

1213

01:07:04,245 --> 01:07:04,425

Yeah.

1214

01:07:04,635 --> 01:07:10,545

Um, but yeah, we don't have to carry

these ailing bodies around anymore.

1215

01:07:10,545 --> 01:07:12,015

We are more free that way.

1216

01:07:12,795 --> 01:07:15,945

Um, but we still, yeah.

1217

01:07:15,945 --> 01:07:19,095

We still have to learn and grow.

1218

01:07:19,455 --> 01:07:19,845

Yeah.

1219

01:07:20,270 --> 01:07:20,510

And, and I.

1220

01:07:22,860 --> 01:07:25,800

From all I'm taught, there's

levels in that, you know?

1221

01:07:26,550 --> 01:07:31,650

And some people just dig in and

don't wanna grow and don't want to

1222

01:07:31,650 --> 01:07:34,110

be better people and contribute.

1223

01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:38,850

So they've got some tough learning up

there, you know, so they've gotta go to

1224

01:07:38,850 --> 01:07:40,500

a bit of a different school, you know?

1225

01:07:40,830 --> 01:07:41,520

So, yeah.

1226

01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:41,700

Yeah.

1227

01:07:42,420 --> 01:07:47,970

Everyone, everyone's spirit

is dealt with accordingly.

1228

01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:53,460

Leonie, I can't thank you

enough for our chat today.

1229

01:07:53,460 --> 01:07:58,980

It's been very insightful and, and

you know it, when you talk about

1230

01:07:58,980 --> 01:08:00,610

your spiritual guide, it's mm-hmm.

1231

01:08:00,875 --> 01:08:04,620

It's something that people refer

to as their conscience or an angel

1232

01:08:04,620 --> 01:08:07,950

on their shoulder, or there's

many different versions of what

1233

01:08:08,070 --> 01:08:09,420

we have been talking through Yes.

1234

01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:10,950

Today.

1235

01:08:10,950 --> 01:08:13,620

And I, I really appreciate

you sharing You're welcome.

1236

01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:16,740

Your spiritual journey with us

and, and what it means to you.

1237

01:08:16,740 --> 01:08:16,800

Yeah.

1238

01:08:17,005 --> 01:08:18,165

Thank you, Catherine.

1239

01:08:19,229 --> 01:08:21,660

It'd be interesting to

see what I came out with.

1240

01:08:24,509 --> 01:08:25,709

Uh, hear yourself back.

1241

01:08:25,709 --> 01:08:29,879

You go, oh yeah, uh, I forgot to say this.

1242

01:08:29,879 --> 01:08:31,319

Or, uh,

1243

01:08:31,649 --> 01:08:35,609

is there anything that you feel like

you wanna check your notes and make sure

1244

01:08:35,609 --> 01:08:37,349

we've covered off on everything you wanted

1245

01:08:37,589 --> 01:08:37,830

to?

1246

01:08:37,830 --> 01:08:38,160

And one,

1247

01:08:43,649 --> 01:08:45,479

from my perspective, I

thought it was great.

1248

01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:45,779

Was it?

1249

01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:46,799

Yeah, I loved it.

1250

01:08:47,370 --> 01:08:47,969

Absolutely

1251

01:08:47,969 --> 01:08:48,419

loved it.

1252

01:08:48,419 --> 01:08:49,229

All right.

1253

01:08:49,290 --> 01:08:51,779

Um, oh, it's just about truth.

1254

01:08:51,779 --> 01:08:55,500

You know, the Irish have a saying,

the truth comes out at the wake

1255

01:08:55,500 --> 01:08:56,759

when the whiskey's flowing.

1256

01:08:57,179 --> 01:09:01,559

You know, so often that's why people sit

in the funerals and go, you know, and I

1257

01:09:01,559 --> 01:09:07,379

think there's a feeling that most people

feel they have to endure a funeral.

1258

01:09:08,099 --> 01:09:15,029

There's a perception that they're gloomy,

sad, dark, you know, um, and irrelevant.

1259

01:09:15,464 --> 01:09:20,354

Because say a, a priest or a minister

has, has to go by the church protocols

1260

01:09:20,354 --> 01:09:24,674

or the written service, and then they

just put in a deceased person's name.

1261

01:09:24,674 --> 01:09:24,974

You know?

1262

01:09:25,694 --> 01:09:30,584

So that can feel entirely irrelevant,

whereas a celebrant can personalize a

1263

01:09:30,584 --> 01:09:36,615

ceremony, dig deeper and be more creative.

1264

01:09:37,365 --> 01:09:37,604

Yeah.

1265

01:09:37,604 --> 01:09:38,109

So I think,

1266

01:09:38,290 --> 01:09:42,524

and I really like when you were

talking about how you spend time

1267

01:09:42,524 --> 01:09:46,724

with the families to, you know,

simple things like the jellybean jar.

1268

01:09:47,354 --> 01:09:47,504

Yes.

1269

01:09:47,504 --> 01:09:51,254

You know, like that is

a way to really honor someone

1270

01:09:51,584 --> 01:09:54,044

and create that ritual Yes.

1271

01:09:54,075 --> 01:09:56,054

Uh, of what that person meant.

1272

01:09:56,054 --> 01:09:58,844

So it isn't just a name that's been added

to an order of service That's right.

1273

01:09:58,905 --> 01:10:00,134

Over the last person's

1274

01:10:00,134 --> 01:10:00,464

name.

1275

01:10:00,644 --> 01:10:01,004

Yeah.

1276

01:10:01,019 --> 01:10:01,785

Yeah, that's right.

1277

01:10:02,594 --> 01:10:05,565

Uh, and little touches too, like, um,

1278

01:10:09,525 --> 01:10:14,655

do we want, uh, uh, you know,

a basket of roses there?

1279

01:10:15,389 --> 01:10:19,830

So that before we close the

curtains, everyone in the room

1280

01:10:19,860 --> 01:10:23,580

if they like, can come and place

a rose, because Mary grew roses.

1281

01:10:23,580 --> 01:10:30,570

Her rose garden was magnificent, you

know, and everyone can do something,

1282

01:10:30,570 --> 01:10:34,080

I feel, rather than just coming

to a funeral and sitting there.

1283

01:10:36,720 --> 01:10:42,120

If people do something ritualistic like

that, then they're saying, my spirit

1284

01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:46,800

recognize yours, you know, and they place

a rose on the coffin and some people

1285

01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:50,760

will do it quickly and walk away and a

tears down the running down their face.

1286

01:10:51,059 --> 01:10:55,740

Or some people will take that moment

and kiss the coffin as well and place

1287

01:10:55,740 --> 01:11:02,370

the rose on it, or, um, or they'll

just spend a quiet moment there.

1288

01:11:02,429 --> 01:11:08,429

Or, you know, grandma and granddaughter

might walk up together and, you know, um,

1289

01:11:08,580 --> 01:11:11,490

and place a rose, you know, so you see.

1290

01:11:12,615 --> 01:11:17,865

Those sort of things that make it,

uh, a beautiful moment, really.

1291

01:11:18,195 --> 01:11:18,585

Yeah.

1292

01:11:19,455 --> 01:11:21,705

And you just mentioned there

the closing of the curtain.

1293

01:11:21,705 --> 01:11:21,765

Yeah.

1294

01:11:21,765 --> 01:11:24,405

So someone who is completely

unfamiliar and may never have

1295

01:11:24,405 --> 01:11:25,815

attended a funeral before.

1296

01:11:26,235 --> 01:11:26,475

Yeah.

1297

01:11:26,475 --> 01:11:27,975

They may be thinking What curtains?

1298

01:11:29,925 --> 01:11:30,735

Oh yeah, sorry.

1299

01:11:31,545 --> 01:11:36,135

Um, 'cause I still work mainly

in the traditional funeral

1300

01:11:36,135 --> 01:11:38,055

chapels or at the crematorium.

1301

01:11:38,715 --> 01:11:44,085

And, um, in the funeral chapels, there's

often a curtain closes as the last songs

1302

01:11:44,085 --> 01:11:46,605

played, the final words have been said.

1303

01:11:47,055 --> 01:11:51,945

The curtain just closes, gently

finish, blow out the candle.

1304

01:11:52,695 --> 01:11:57,645

Now it's time to warm yourself up

on the inside after the emotional

1305

01:11:57,975 --> 01:12:00,015

moments, you know, beforehand.

1306

01:12:00,045 --> 01:12:05,355

And so that's why we have a, a wake,

you know, uh, people in a less formal

1307

01:12:05,355 --> 01:12:07,305

situation, they can let go a bit.

1308

01:12:08,325 --> 01:12:08,715

Um.

1309

01:12:09,195 --> 01:12:09,585

Yes.

1310

01:12:09,585 --> 01:12:13,935

Uh, they've at Bunong, uh, I dunno

if you've been out there, Catherine.

1311

01:12:13,995 --> 01:12:15,345

They've got a Yes.

1312

01:12:15,675 --> 01:12:16,965

They don't have a curtain.

1313

01:12:16,995 --> 01:12:20,895

They, the coffin lowers and a

beautiful glass screen comes up

1314

01:12:20,895 --> 01:12:23,145

and, you know, that's, that's nice.

1315

01:12:23,145 --> 01:12:27,525

Some people don't want any

lowering or any curtains closing.

1316

01:12:28,125 --> 01:12:33,465

They just want to leave the coffin there

and people can come even while they're

1317

01:12:33,465 --> 01:12:37,965

having a cup of tea, come in and spend

a few quiet moments with the person.

1318

01:12:38,205 --> 01:12:38,835

That's nice.

1319

01:12:38,850 --> 01:12:39,250

I like that.

1320

01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:39,570

Yeah.

1321

01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:40,010

Nice.

1322

01:12:40,480 --> 01:12:40,770

Yeah.

1323

01:12:40,770 --> 01:12:40,780

Nice.

1324

01:12:41,445 --> 01:12:46,665

And you were just mentioning also

prior to this, um, about the Irish

1325

01:12:46,665 --> 01:12:48,105

and what they, about the Wakes.

1326

01:12:48,180 --> 01:12:48,530

Wakes.

1327

01:12:48,830 --> 01:12:49,050

Yes.

1328

01:12:49,055 --> 01:12:49,125

Yes.

1329

01:12:49,575 --> 01:12:50,805

Can you just tell us that again?

1330

01:12:51,195 --> 01:12:51,765

Alright.

1331

01:12:51,765 --> 01:12:57,105

So as I was talking about, it's very hard

to tell the truth, you know, be honest.

1332

01:12:57,105 --> 01:13:01,185

And the Irish, the Irish say,

you know, the truth comes out at

1333

01:13:01,185 --> 01:13:02,805

the wake when the whiskey flows.

1334

01:13:02,805 --> 01:13:06,735

That's when you really know who the

person was and how they affected you.

1335

01:13:07,335 --> 01:13:07,695

Um.

1336

01:13:09,099 --> 01:13:10,990

Yeah, that's, that was all in there.

1337

01:13:11,410 --> 01:13:12,190

So, yeah.

1338

01:13:12,555 --> 01:13:21,434

But see, in organizing funerals now,

uh, we have this perception, the

1339

01:13:21,434 --> 01:13:23,655

funeral directors have to do everything.

1340

01:13:23,835 --> 01:13:26,445

They don't, they're there

to help and guide you.

1341

01:13:28,035 --> 01:13:32,985

We can go back to the old ways of

having the person in your home, your

1342

01:13:32,985 --> 01:13:37,905

loved one in your home, and people can

come and visit and say goodbye there.

1343

01:13:38,474 --> 01:13:40,035

Very much the Irish Way, isn't it?

1344

01:13:40,035 --> 01:13:40,965

The Irish Way.

1345

01:13:40,965 --> 01:13:41,325

Yeah.

1346

01:13:41,325 --> 01:13:41,335

Yeah.

1347

01:13:41,335 --> 01:13:41,985

Yes.

1348

01:13:42,285 --> 01:13:49,425

Um, and sit around and sit around and talk

about the person, you know, just Yeah.

1349

01:13:49,605 --> 01:13:54,255

What they meant to you, or say, oh, just

sit quietly or, and think about your

1350

01:13:54,255 --> 01:13:56,835

life and your life in relation to theirs.

1351

01:13:57,495 --> 01:13:57,915

Yeah.

1352

01:13:58,005 --> 01:14:04,095

So we can, we can, I've conducted funerals

and gardens, which has been nice when

1353

01:14:04,095 --> 01:14:06,585

the person, the coffin's been there.

1354

01:14:06,990 --> 01:14:07,530

Um,

1355

01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:11,190

and you mentioned the ute earlier

too, like that, that's certainly

1356

01:14:11,190 --> 01:14:15,210

not a traditional way in which to

actually have, have the body, you know?

1357

01:14:15,780 --> 01:14:16,590

Yeah, yeah,

1358

01:14:16,590 --> 01:14:16,600

yeah.

1359

01:14:16,980 --> 01:14:18,360

Um, driven away.

1360

01:14:18,389 --> 01:14:18,985

Yeah, that's right.

1361

01:14:19,530 --> 01:14:23,400

Um, uh, I think, uh,

1362

01:14:25,410 --> 01:14:31,260

we've, we've generally, I think

simplicity has come back more.

1363

01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:35,460

As I said, the baby boomer generation,

we don't want the huge, big, heavy

1364

01:14:35,460 --> 01:14:37,769

headstones with lots of words.

1365

01:14:38,190 --> 01:14:46,800

We don't want, um, you know, heavy wooden

caskets and they're cultural things still.

1366

01:14:47,670 --> 01:14:55,950

But for instance, I've chosen a natural

burial, so there's no plaque, no nothing.

1367

01:14:55,950 --> 01:15:00,570

It's a, you know, maybe a

tree planted, but I want much.

1368

01:15:00,570 --> 01:15:02,040

And have you chosen a, a place

1369

01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:03,000

for the natural burial?

1370

01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:03,720

Yes.

1371

01:15:05,375 --> 01:15:05,595

And.

1372

01:15:06,060 --> 01:15:11,940

Uh, you know, um, then I want my family

and friends to carry me to the grave.

1373

01:15:12,480 --> 01:15:15,570

I want them to shovel the dirt in.

1374

01:15:15,690 --> 01:15:18,930

I want them to stand around and say

what they loved about me and what

1375

01:15:18,930 --> 01:15:20,820

they found hard to love about me.

1376

01:15:21,270 --> 01:15:23,070

I want lots of flowers.

1377

01:15:23,430 --> 01:15:25,170

I want some live music.

1378

01:15:25,710 --> 01:15:26,820

Um, yeah.

1379

01:15:27,450 --> 01:15:34,200

And, uh, yeah, and, and I believe,

I, I love doing graveside ceremonies

1380

01:15:34,650 --> 01:15:36,600

because it makes it so real.

1381

01:15:37,440 --> 01:15:39,270

You know, the span of life.

1382

01:15:39,270 --> 01:15:39,870

So real.

1383

01:15:39,870 --> 01:15:41,770

Here's all these headstones around you.

1384

01:15:42,870 --> 01:15:44,610

There's nature trees.

1385

01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:49,800

You usually hear birds at a

bagpipe playing or a violin,

1386

01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:51,510

and everyone feels it.

1387

01:15:51,660 --> 01:15:52,080

Yes.

1388

01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:52,230

The

1389

01:15:52,230 --> 01:15:55,710

bagpipes, I've, that's a, that's

a family thing with us, right?

1390

01:15:55,710 --> 01:15:57,510

And, and yes, they're very moving.

1391

01:15:57,540 --> 01:15:59,010

Yes, it moves you.

1392

01:15:59,010 --> 01:16:00,840

And we had them at my grand

grandfather's funeral.

1393

01:16:00,930 --> 01:16:02,220

That was at home actually, right.

1394

01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:03,390

And, yeah.

1395

01:16:04,425 --> 01:16:06,915

Every time I hear the bagpipes

now, it still gets me going.

1396

01:16:06,945 --> 01:16:07,335

You know?

1397

01:16:07,335 --> 01:16:07,695

Yes.

1398

01:16:07,755 --> 01:16:08,265

Yeah.

1399

01:16:08,265 --> 01:16:10,965

And it's about feeling.

1400

01:16:11,025 --> 01:16:11,415

Yeah.

1401

01:16:11,955 --> 01:16:15,255

And that's what my journey's been on.

1402

01:16:15,795 --> 01:16:20,895

As I said, I had lots of knowledge

up here, but to, to feel if we feel,

1403

01:16:22,185 --> 01:16:28,425

uh, yeah, we're in touch with

ourselves, in touch with our spirit.

1404

01:16:28,755 --> 01:16:29,235

Mm-hmm.

1405

01:16:29,355 --> 01:16:35,235

And I think those things out in nature

like that, and the bagpipes playing,

1406

01:16:35,235 --> 01:16:41,330

or a violin, you know, a learned violin

with the, or somebody singing mm-hmm.

1407

01:16:41,470 --> 01:16:46,965

You know, out there, you can't

help but be in touch with your

1408

01:16:46,965 --> 01:16:48,765

feelings in those moments.

1409

01:16:48,765 --> 01:16:51,675

So, whereas we are in a chapel and Yeah.

1410

01:16:51,795 --> 01:16:52,095

Yeah.

1411

01:16:52,095 --> 01:16:54,120

It's a very different feeling,

isn't It's a very different feeling.

1412

01:16:54,345 --> 01:16:54,825

Yeah.

1413

01:16:54,825 --> 01:16:54,835

Yeah.

1414

01:16:54,915 --> 01:17:03,195

Um, I, I love sometimes to tell

a story that in, um, ancient, uh.

1415

01:17:04,170 --> 01:17:06,180

Oh God, the words just gone outta my mind.

1416

01:17:07,350 --> 01:17:11,940

But the women, uh, some aboriginal

ceremonies like this, the women

1417

01:17:11,940 --> 01:17:17,370

came together and they weep and

wail when there's been a death.

1418

01:17:18,060 --> 01:17:21,180

They weep and wail, not just

for that death, but for all

1419

01:17:21,180 --> 01:17:22,890

the sorrow in the world.

1420

01:17:23,580 --> 01:17:27,035

Um, oh, where, okay.

1421

01:17:27,095 --> 01:17:32,910

Is awful for Karen, Catherine, this

word, but they, they, the ceremony was

1422

01:17:32,970 --> 01:17:37,350

that they wep and, and, and the myth

was that's how the River Nile was

1423

01:17:37,350 --> 01:17:40,290

created from their tears, you know?

1424

01:17:40,290 --> 01:17:42,235

So I've said Egypt.

1425

01:17:42,705 --> 01:17:44,010

Yeah, the ancient Egypt.

1426

01:17:44,010 --> 01:17:45,510

It wasn't the ancient Egyptians.

1427

01:17:45,510 --> 01:17:46,560

It was, uh oh.

1428

01:17:46,565 --> 01:17:49,560

They were, oh, just not coming to me.

1429

01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:50,550

Doesn't matter.

1430

01:17:50,850 --> 01:17:55,140

But the, as I say, aboriginal women

do that and they'll weep and wa and

1431

01:17:55,140 --> 01:17:58,110

they get their, their feelings out.

1432

01:17:59,309 --> 01:18:03,840

And I think sometimes when I'm in

a chapel and everyone's sitting

1433

01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:06,930

there, you know, and all subdued.

1434

01:18:06,930 --> 01:18:06,990

Yeah.

1435

01:18:07,440 --> 01:18:13,050

And I think, here's this beautiful young

person whose life has been shortened.

1436

01:18:14,490 --> 01:18:18,690

We all, you know, let's all

weep and wail and get it out.

1437

01:18:18,690 --> 01:18:21,480

You know, let's all stand

around and hold each other.

1438

01:18:21,870 --> 01:18:22,290

Because I,

1439

01:18:22,380 --> 01:18:26,639

I find like when you're talking

about this, actually, I, I, I know

1440

01:18:26,639 --> 01:18:29,040

myself like I stifle my sobbing.

1441

01:18:29,130 --> 01:18:29,550

Yes.

1442

01:18:29,580 --> 01:18:31,320

When you're in that scenario.

1443

01:18:31,470 --> 01:18:31,559

Yes.

1444

01:18:31,590 --> 01:18:33,240

Because you just don't want to be.

1445

01:18:33,540 --> 01:18:37,950

You know, offensive or, or you know, it,

it's just sort of like, oh, you know,

1446

01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:39,120

it better not be too, too over the top.

1447

01:18:40,144 --> 01:18:40,395

Too over the top.

1448

01:18:40,395 --> 01:18:43,170

But if, if there is not a place to do it.

1449

01:18:43,260 --> 01:18:43,380

Yeah.

1450

01:18:43,380 --> 01:18:45,059

Like that is the place to do it.

1451

01:18:45,065 --> 01:18:45,485

Yeah, absolutely.

1452

01:18:45,594 --> 01:18:49,500

It's so, it's so weird that we do

feel that we have to restrain our

1453

01:18:49,500 --> 01:18:53,160

emotions when it's, it's one of the

rawest things we, and the most natural

1454

01:18:53,160 --> 01:18:54,990

things we can do and experience.

1455

01:18:54,990 --> 01:18:55,920

Absolutely.

1456

01:18:56,070 --> 01:18:56,849

Absolutely.

1457

01:18:57,420 --> 01:19:03,120

Um, yes, I think, I wonder what

it'd be like to, to do that.

1458

01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:09,630

And I, I think the, um, the American

Indian culture, they had a thing that

1459

01:19:09,630 --> 01:19:16,920

when somebody died, a tradition, not

a thing, a tradition where they, each

1460

01:19:16,920 --> 01:19:25,019

person, they sat in a circle and each

person could talk about what that person

1461

01:19:25,019 --> 01:19:31,200

meant and what belief systems they held

that made them act the way they did.

1462

01:19:31,260 --> 01:19:32,880

And, and it was that.

1463

01:19:33,615 --> 01:19:39,105

In being truthful and in talking about

those things, the next generation learns.

1464

01:19:39,765 --> 01:19:41,445

So that's evolution, you know?

1465

01:19:41,450 --> 01:19:41,660

Mm-hmm.

1466

01:19:41,745 --> 01:19:48,285

So, okay, that Warrior did this

and that wasn't so good because it

1467

01:19:48,285 --> 01:19:50,685

went against what the chief wanted.

1468

01:19:50,685 --> 01:19:51,255

You know?

1469

01:19:51,375 --> 01:19:53,355

So how can I learn from that?

1470

01:19:53,355 --> 01:19:53,685

You know?

1471

01:19:53,685 --> 01:19:53,895

And

1472

01:19:53,895 --> 01:19:56,955

so important in those

cultures where oral history

1473

01:19:56,955 --> 01:19:57,375

Yes.

1474

01:19:57,435 --> 01:20:00,885

Is the only way in which you

can actually pass down those

1475

01:20:00,885 --> 01:20:02,445

teachings to another generation.

1476

01:20:03,255 --> 01:20:03,735

Yeah.

1477

01:20:03,735 --> 01:20:03,795

Yeah.

1478

01:20:04,365 --> 01:20:07,635

I think, I think we're

learning some things.

1479

01:20:07,635 --> 01:20:08,235

We are not.

1480

01:20:08,235 --> 01:20:09,795

That's the way of things, isn't it?

1481

01:20:10,005 --> 01:20:10,740

It really is.

1482

01:20:10,930 --> 01:20:11,220

Yeah.

1483

01:20:11,805 --> 01:20:14,535

And they'll be doing, will they

be doing funerals differently

1484

01:20:14,535 --> 01:20:16,005

in another 10 years time?

1485

01:20:16,005 --> 01:20:16,545

I wonder.

1486

01:20:16,965 --> 01:20:17,535

I don't know.

1487

01:20:17,625 --> 01:20:17,955

Yeah.

1488

01:20:17,955 --> 01:20:23,535

It's, it's one of those things, it's,

it's like anything, um, it has been

1489

01:20:23,535 --> 01:20:28,185

happening for eons and it will continue to

happen long and after you and I are gone.

1490

01:20:28,185 --> 01:20:29,020

Yes, that's right.

1491

01:20:29,120 --> 01:20:30,180

And yet some things.

1492

01:20:31,245 --> 01:20:32,900

Always remain the same about it.

1493

01:20:32,900 --> 01:20:33,675

Same, exactly.

1494

01:20:33,675 --> 01:20:33,735

Yeah.

1495

01:20:34,335 --> 01:20:38,144

I'd like to just say one thing

to pe There is a perception.

1496

01:20:39,465 --> 01:20:43,394

I, I said before, funeral directors

are there to help you and guide you.

1497

01:20:43,514 --> 01:20:45,285

You can do a lot of the work yourself.

1498

01:20:45,585 --> 01:20:49,844

Press chat, GPT, it'll tell you exactly

what you need to do for a funeral.

1499

01:20:50,535 --> 01:20:54,855

But some people think, yeah, funeral

directors are there just to rip us off.

1500

01:20:56,264 --> 01:20:59,955

Look, they're companies and they have

overheads and they're gonna have to pay

1501

01:20:59,955 --> 01:21:03,014

staff, and those staff need their jobs.

1502

01:21:04,545 --> 01:21:12,344

But 99% of the funeral directors I deal

with, they're caring, compassionate

1503

01:21:12,525 --> 01:21:15,045

people and they want to help.

1504

01:21:15,105 --> 01:21:20,594

They feel drawn to that, not because

they, you know, are horrible people.

1505

01:21:20,594 --> 01:21:25,755

They're there because they, they've got

a history of maybe a funeral director

1506

01:21:25,785 --> 01:21:29,655

helping them in the past or, or, um, they.

1507

01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:33,000

They're, as I say, they're compassionate

and they want to help people at

1508

01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:34,530

a vulnerable time in their life.

1509

01:21:34,889 --> 01:21:39,419

So I think it's a wrong, uh,

a misperception to think that

1510

01:21:39,419 --> 01:21:41,009

they're there to rip you off.

1511

01:21:41,009 --> 01:21:45,150

They're there to help guide you,

and we do need them because everyone

1512

01:21:45,450 --> 01:21:50,879

needs to be in a coffin basically,

and be taken somewhere to be cremated.

1513

01:21:50,879 --> 01:21:53,070

So they're there to help you.

1514

01:21:53,429 --> 01:21:55,530

And not everyone wants

to do it all themselves.

1515

01:21:55,915 --> 01:21:56,134

No,

1516

01:21:56,139 --> 01:21:56,339

no.

1517

01:21:56,339 --> 01:21:56,969

That's right.

1518

01:21:57,209 --> 01:22:00,839

You're at a time where you've,

you know, your life falls apart,

1519

01:22:01,740 --> 01:22:06,330

and yes, you're vulnerable, but

people aren't there to rip you off.

1520

01:22:06,330 --> 01:22:09,120

They help there to try and

help you make good decisions.

1521

01:22:09,540 --> 01:22:14,219

But as you, as we said, if you've

written down some things, some of

1522

01:22:14,219 --> 01:22:15,929

those decisions are taken away.

1523

01:22:15,929 --> 01:22:20,490

And in your grief, you say, thank

you, Mary, for writing that down.

1524

01:22:20,490 --> 01:22:21,690

I know what you want.

1525

01:22:21,780 --> 01:22:22,440

Okay.

1526

01:22:22,469 --> 01:22:28,049

And now this is what I want to do

to express how I felt about you.

1527

01:22:28,285 --> 01:22:28,575

Yeah.

1528

01:22:28,580 --> 01:22:28,950

Yeah.

1529

01:22:29,580 --> 01:22:30,900

I think that's lovely, Leonie.

1530

01:22:32,519 --> 01:22:32,760

Okay.

1531

01:22:32,940 --> 01:22:34,950

I think that's a great place to end it.

1532

01:22:35,010 --> 01:22:35,460

Okay.

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How My Sister’s Death at Four Shaped My Life

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