1
00:00:01,530 --> 00:00:03,240
We don't have scales for grief.

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We don't say, well, we have
this much grief for a partner.

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We have this much for a mother,
we have this much for a dog.

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Grief is grief and it's about the bond.

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It's about the love.

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00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:15,300
It's not about the species.

... Read More

1
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We don't have scales for grief.

2
00:00:03,270 --> 00:00:06,630
We don't say, well, we have
this much grief for a partner.

3
00:00:06,630 --> 00:00:09,660
We have this much for a mother,
we have this much for a dog.

4
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:12,150
Grief is grief and it's about the bond.

5
00:00:12,150 --> 00:00:13,410
It's about the love.

6
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It's not about the species.

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So it's about the attachment, the
amount of love, and it doesn't

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00:00:19,140 --> 00:00:20,970
matter whether that's four legs.

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Wings scales, or two legs.

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It's about the bond.

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00:00:26,065 --> 00:00:28,915
And as we have so much love
in the world, it doesn't mean

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that we are not loving others.

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It's just one of the mixes in
our family, in our companions.

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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a
podcast encouraging open conversations

15
00:00:40,915 --> 00:00:43,315
about dying and the death of a loved one.

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00:00:43,855 --> 00:00:47,365
I'm your host, Catherine Ashton,
founder of Critical Info.

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And I'm helping to bring your
stories of death back to life

18
00:00:51,845 --> 00:00:56,075
because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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00:00:59,405 --> 00:01:00,305
Don't be caught dead.

20
00:01:00,305 --> 00:01:03,785
Acknowledges the lands of the
Kulin Nations and recognizes their

21
00:01:03,785 --> 00:01:06,455
connection to land, sea, and community.

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00:01:06,780 --> 00:01:10,890
We pay our respects to their elders
past, present, and emerging, and

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00:01:10,890 --> 00:01:14,760
extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,580
Today I'm speaking with Barbara Allen.

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Barbara has helped developed
Australia's first animal chaplaincy

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program at the Lort Smith Animal
Hospital here in Melbourne.

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She is passionate about animals and
about stewardship of all creation,

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and is the author of numerous books,
including, I Was There, Pigeon,

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Animals in Religion, and Pelican.

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Alan serves as an ordained minister
in the Uniting Church in Australia,

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and in a voluntary capacity as the
grief support person for Story Dogs,

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a charity that uses dogs to help
children become confident readers.

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Barbara lives in Melbourne, in Australia,
and I'm so excited to speak with you.

35
00:02:05,384 --> 00:02:05,625
Thank you.

36
00:02:06,255 --> 00:02:07,155
Lovely to meet you.

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00:02:07,634 --> 00:02:09,134
Lovely to meet you too, Barbara.

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00:02:09,134 --> 00:02:12,555
Now I was provided with your
details or actually it was the

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other way round, wasn't it?

40
00:02:13,545 --> 00:02:19,005
You were provided with my details
after I had interviewed the wonderful

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00:02:19,005 --> 00:02:24,704
author Leah Kaminsky, late last
year, and I, I am absolutely.

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In love with the book that
you have just released.

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Can you tell us a little bit
about that book, please, Barbara?

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It's a book about pet loss, and I wrote
it because I felt that our society, as

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you well know, Catherine doesn't deal with
death very well for human loss, all for

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animal loss, and I just felt there are a
lot of broken hearts out there who could.

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Do with some of the tools of the trade,
or for people who perhaps don't have

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pets, but they know someone whose
pet has died, they don't know what

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to say, they don't know how to help.

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So being able to give them a way
to help someone who's in pain.

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And I think we want to do that, don't we?

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In life, we wanna help people and if
we can say the right thing or we're

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afraid of saying the wrong thing,
so we don't say anything at all.

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Whereas this gives a few little
pointers to help people, I hope.

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Know those who are grieving and those who
wanna help, those who who are grieving.

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And so many people love their animals
and sometimes get a shock when they, you

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know, experience the amount of pain when
an animal has died and to let them know.

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That's one of the main reasons I
wrote the book to normalize the grief.

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And what surprises me is that for some
people it comes as a shock when they

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experience this grief because the reason
why I say it surprises me is because

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I. Our pets love us unconditionally.

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Like they're the one thing in the
world that no matter how bad we are or

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what we are looking like or what bad
day we had, the pets are always the

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one, like I take my dog, for example.

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She's always the one that is the
happiest person in the family to see me.

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Yes.

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And so I'm surprised when people
are shocked when they, they have

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a pet die, they are surprised
by the impact that has on them.

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Part of that reason, I think is,
I mean, like you, I was surprised

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because I, I grew up with animals,
always had animals in my life.

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Can't imagine life without animals.

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They're just part of it.

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Part of it.

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And I used to say to people, if you are
watching TV and you leave the room and

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you go back in 10 minutes, who notices?

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It's a dog.

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Or the cat, maybe not the partner.

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It's so true.

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It's true.

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And I say be more like your
dog, you know, like, you know,

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embrace the present moment.

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Love unconditionally.

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And our dogs and our cats, our, our
animals get the essence of who we

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are, not the external trappings.

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They get right to the heart of things.

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And that is, I think, one of the
reasons that grief is so intense.

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We are not expecting that.

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I mean, they're our best cheerleaders.

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Partners try, but I really do think
the animals, they don't have baggage.

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They don't have baggage about us,
and I think that's why it's a very

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raw and a very unburdened grief.

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I think part of the reason people
are surprised is because of

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perhaps mixed messages in society.

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They'll hear things.

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It was only a dog.

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You can get another one.

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Now, correct me if I'm wrong,
Catherine, but I don't think

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people say that about husband.

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If it's just a husband, get another one.

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I don't think we normally hear that.

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So it almost says that grief is
not worth, it's not the same.

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Now, I don't think.

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I don't have one, and I'm
sure you don't have one.

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We don't have scales for grief.

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We don't say, well, we have
this much grief for a partner.

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We have this much for a mother.

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We have this much for a dog.

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Grief is grief and it's about the bond.

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It's about the love.

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It's not about the species.

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So it's about the attachment, the
amount of love, and it doesn't matter

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whether that's four legs, wings, scales,
or two legs, it's about the bond.

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00:06:10,065 --> 00:06:12,945
And as we have so much love
in the world, it doesn't mean

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that we are not loving others.

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00:06:14,385 --> 00:06:17,655
It's just one of the, in our
family and our companions.

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It's because people think that you're
not meant to feel that for an animal.

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I think if that's how that person feels,
that they've never really had that love

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and some people have never had animals.

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So I say just take a step back
and think for them that it's

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another language or it's like an
alien's landed from another planet.

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They don't really understand.

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00:06:41,855 --> 00:06:46,535
But hopefully the book or someone
giving them some ideas will help them.

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Not say the wrong thing or be able
to help someone who's grieving, even

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if they will never understand that.

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00:06:53,655 --> 00:06:57,255
But I think it's that, that idea, 'cause
people are still quite apologetic.

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They'll say to me, or they used to say to
me, oh, I didn't know I'd feel like this.

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00:07:01,005 --> 00:07:04,575
I didn't cry when my dad died,
but I can't stop crying because

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00:07:04,575 --> 00:07:07,335
my dogs died and they feel guilty.

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00:07:07,695 --> 00:07:10,905
And I say, it's not about guilt,
it's about honoring that grief.

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And every grief is different
and everyone in the family will

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00:07:14,984 --> 00:07:16,635
experience that grief differently.

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00:07:16,635 --> 00:07:21,120
I. So it's, it's about how you're
feeling and the memories and the space.

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00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,940
Because when you walk into
the door, through the door at

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00:07:23,940 --> 00:07:25,859
night, that was your dog space.

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00:07:25,859 --> 00:07:27,299
That was your cat space.

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So there are the reminders everywhere.

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And even though you might still
be vacuuming a month later,

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00:07:32,669 --> 00:07:35,849
you still get that tough to
fur somewhere or you, you know.

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00:07:36,110 --> 00:07:37,730
So it's, it's all of that.

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And what do you do with their feeding
bowls and, you know, the collars and

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00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,400
the rugs and the, you know, all of that.

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00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,790
So it's, your living area
was their living area.

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00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,220
So there's no displacement from that.

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00:07:49,220 --> 00:07:50,150
You're always there.

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00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,060
So that is also another
part to that grief.

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00:07:53,630 --> 00:07:57,800
But I do think it's been that
idea for society, it's just a dog.

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00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,320
It's not the same as, as a human.

148
00:08:01,424 --> 00:08:05,445
That grief is grief and we don't
play games in, in terms of, this is

149
00:08:05,445 --> 00:08:07,784
more, this is less, this is whatever.

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00:08:07,905 --> 00:08:10,935
It's, it's about what that
animal has meant to you.

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00:08:12,465 --> 00:08:15,285
It is interesting what you were
saying there about when you

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00:08:15,285 --> 00:08:17,175
walk in the, the door at night.

153
00:08:17,445 --> 00:08:22,995
Mm. The thing that I recall when
our cat died, that we had been in

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00:08:22,995 --> 00:08:25,605
our family for 13 years mm-hmm.

155
00:08:25,965 --> 00:08:30,225
Was I didn't think that she was
that much of a personality or

156
00:08:30,225 --> 00:08:32,775
presence until she wasn't there.

157
00:08:32,775 --> 00:08:39,164
And then I realized how much we were just
so used to her being always there and.

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00:08:39,704 --> 00:08:43,905
It was so much in her
absence that we realized how

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00:08:43,905 --> 00:08:46,305
significant she was to our life.

160
00:08:46,665 --> 00:08:50,954
And I think that was also another
element of the, the grieving

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00:08:50,954 --> 00:08:56,685
process that we had to go through
as well is just those milestones.

162
00:08:56,685 --> 00:09:02,295
Like I think a pet always sort of is
part of a your life for a a long period

163
00:09:02,295 --> 00:09:06,854
of time, and that can be a transition
from whether a child's growing up.

164
00:09:06,885 --> 00:09:12,135
Or whether it was, you know, when like
we got our cat when we were very young

165
00:09:12,135 --> 00:09:16,185
in, in our relationship, my husband and
I before we were husband and wife and,

166
00:09:16,575 --> 00:09:23,355
and so there's those milestones that I
think that our pets, or whatever term

167
00:09:23,355 --> 00:09:28,455
we would like to call them companions,
that they really mark that in life too.

168
00:09:28,455 --> 00:09:28,545
Mm-hmm.

169
00:09:28,785 --> 00:09:30,130
Is that something that you've found?

170
00:09:31,410 --> 00:09:32,330
Absolutely, and, and I.

171
00:09:35,285 --> 00:09:36,964
Companions versus pets.

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00:09:38,194 --> 00:09:41,824
Some people will say, don't call them
pets, but look, it's a term of endearment.

173
00:09:41,824 --> 00:09:44,675
We do that with our partners,
so I don't mind that.

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00:09:44,675 --> 00:09:47,344
I don't see it as diminishing
the animal at all.

175
00:09:47,765 --> 00:09:51,484
Companion means from Latin to break
breed, and I kind of like that.

176
00:09:51,484 --> 00:09:54,574
You know, we share our meals at the
same time as perhaps our animals.

177
00:09:54,574 --> 00:09:59,224
So either one, you know, is fine
by me, but it's that you're quite

178
00:09:59,224 --> 00:10:02,045
right about those transitional
times and the marking of.

179
00:10:02,730 --> 00:10:04,709
Particular stage,
especially with children.

180
00:10:04,949 --> 00:10:08,586
You know, sometimes you might acquire
a pet when you think, I think our

181
00:10:08,730 --> 00:10:12,390
child is old enough to be gentle,
to take on the responsibility.

182
00:10:12,390 --> 00:10:14,969
You know, changing the water
bowl, doing, do you know,

183
00:10:14,969 --> 00:10:16,620
maybe going for a walk with us.

184
00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:21,689
All of those things and going into
school, and also our animals are

185
00:10:21,689 --> 00:10:26,100
really important when they're teenagers
because another great quality of our

186
00:10:26,100 --> 00:10:28,020
animals is they don't tell secrets.

187
00:10:28,680 --> 00:10:34,560
So sometimes, especially in the teenage
years, the dog and the cat will have

188
00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:38,340
been told things that, you know,
the parents haven't been told, and

189
00:10:38,340 --> 00:10:42,270
they keep those secrets and they're
ready for the hug all the time.

190
00:10:42,750 --> 00:10:47,250
So when the animal dies, often when the
child's about to, you know, grown up

191
00:10:47,250 --> 00:10:52,470
about to perhaps leave or be in year
11 and 12, that's a really hard time.

192
00:10:54,780 --> 00:10:58,350
Perhaps they're going off to university,
they come home, their animal has died, so

193
00:10:58,530 --> 00:11:02,730
they, they're really crucial things, or
as you said, beginning of a relationship.

194
00:11:03,510 --> 00:11:06,810
Sometimes if a partner has died
and that pet has been part of

195
00:11:06,810 --> 00:11:11,880
that partner's life, then what
happens when that pet dies later?

196
00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,670
You know, it's another part
of, of your partner who's died.

197
00:11:15,180 --> 00:11:16,650
So really crucial things.

198
00:11:17,835 --> 00:11:22,575
Simple things like Christmas, if you take
a bit of a vote, find out how many, you

199
00:11:22,575 --> 00:11:26,444
know, buy a present for their pets at
Christmas or the cat's been there helping

200
00:11:26,444 --> 00:11:30,105
you wrap the presents and you know, the
ribbons and they're there to see that,

201
00:11:30,135 --> 00:11:31,605
you know, the paper being unwrapped.

202
00:11:31,665 --> 00:11:36,194
All of those things are part of that
messy makeup of, of living together.

203
00:11:36,285 --> 00:11:37,395
And they've been part of that.

204
00:11:37,905 --> 00:11:40,635
Sometimes not, as you said, you're
not particularly conscious 'cause

205
00:11:40,635 --> 00:11:43,995
they're there all the time until
there's the absence of presence.

206
00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,660
And that's when I say it's
almost that presence of absence,

207
00:11:48,660 --> 00:11:49,650
you do it back to front.

208
00:11:49,980 --> 00:11:54,480
They really feel that heaviness,
grief comes from the Latin word,

209
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,370
which means heavy and burdened.

210
00:11:56,430 --> 00:11:57,569
And that's how we feel.

211
00:11:57,569 --> 00:12:01,980
We do feel that heaviness and being
bereft, you know, means being robbed.

212
00:12:02,069 --> 00:12:03,870
And we are we robbed of our loved one.

213
00:12:04,349 --> 00:12:06,360
Whether they got, whether they.

214
00:12:08,655 --> 00:12:12,765
I think it's really important for
us to also look at the families and

215
00:12:12,765 --> 00:12:14,925
recognize that people grieve differently.

216
00:12:15,015 --> 00:12:18,135
And just because someone doesn't cry
doesn't mean they're not grieving.

217
00:12:18,855 --> 00:12:22,335
Sometimes they're afraid to
cry in case they cannot stop.

218
00:12:22,709 --> 00:12:26,730
So if they push it down until they're
on their own and be away from other

219
00:12:26,730 --> 00:12:29,189
people, they can deal with it their way.

220
00:12:29,910 --> 00:12:34,410
So I think it's important for us in
a family to also recognize that, and

221
00:12:34,410 --> 00:12:37,560
some members may not wanna talk about
it, or you might think they're, they're

222
00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:40,844
doing okay, but it may not be the case.

223
00:12:40,844 --> 00:12:46,410
So it's just recognizing that that
messiness of a family can also

224
00:12:46,410 --> 00:12:50,100
mean you might have three or four
different ways of dealing with grief.

225
00:12:50,595 --> 00:12:53,505
And I can still see your dog
coming off the, off the couch.

226
00:12:54,225 --> 00:12:54,705
Yes.

227
00:12:54,705 --> 00:12:58,185
And I, I think that means that
there's probably someone home.

228
00:12:58,185 --> 00:12:59,595
So bear with me, Barbara.

229
00:12:59,625 --> 00:13:00,435
Yeah, I will bear with you.

230
00:13:02,025 --> 00:13:04,185
That was so appropriately
timed, wasn't it?

231
00:13:04,275 --> 00:13:04,335
It

232
00:13:04,995 --> 00:13:10,665
was the messiness of life and, and
again, again, I suppose you could

233
00:13:10,665 --> 00:13:14,985
say our protectors of the household,
you know, I mean, we rely on the dog

234
00:13:15,195 --> 00:13:19,275
and even the presence of a cat to
keep us safe and there's another.

235
00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:21,270
Layer that, that, that's gone.

236
00:13:21,690 --> 00:13:24,570
That, that we just take for
granted, and you think, oh, yes.

237
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:26,610
It's so true.

238
00:13:26,610 --> 00:13:30,780
And I, I have so many questions
to ask you, Barbara, but before

239
00:13:31,050 --> 00:13:36,150
I ask more about your work at the
Law Smith Animal Hospital, I'd

240
00:13:36,150 --> 00:13:38,190
love to know how you got started.

241
00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,110
Like what made you fascinated?

242
00:13:40,380 --> 00:13:45,270
Because did you start off as an ordained
minister first and then work with animals?

243
00:13:45,270 --> 00:13:47,700
Or how, tell me your story, Barbara.

244
00:13:48,565 --> 00:13:52,045
Well, I started off while I was
a, a nurse, first, then a teacher.

245
00:13:52,045 --> 00:13:54,775
But I've always grown up with
animals, always loved animals.

246
00:13:55,015 --> 00:13:58,765
Would've been a vet, I think,
except for maths and chemistry.

247
00:13:58,765 --> 00:14:01,285
You know, like you're there
thinking, oh, I don't think so.

248
00:14:01,375 --> 00:14:03,865
And I'm actually really pleased
'cause I would've been the wrong fit.

249
00:14:03,925 --> 00:14:05,125
I would've taken everything home.

250
00:14:05,875 --> 00:14:09,625
So I've always just sort of thought,
well, I love animals and, and

251
00:14:09,625 --> 00:14:11,035
they'll always be part of my life.

252
00:14:11,820 --> 00:14:15,210
And then, and we were living in Canberra
and then we came down to Melbourne

253
00:14:15,660 --> 00:14:19,620
and I was teaching at the Theological
college, and I was ordained by then.

254
00:14:20,340 --> 00:14:25,380
And then someone mentioned one
lunchtime about being approached

255
00:14:25,380 --> 00:14:30,480
by the new CEO at Lort Smith Animal
Hospital, who was Rick Holland,

256
00:14:30,990 --> 00:14:32,940
who was also an ordained minister.

257
00:14:33,150 --> 00:14:36,510
He came down one day from his
office and there was a lady in one

258
00:14:36,510 --> 00:14:39,630
of the waiting rooms who came out
and collapsed from grief, and he

259
00:14:39,630 --> 00:14:40,710
thought, we can do better than this.

260
00:14:40,990 --> 00:14:42,280
We need to do better than this.

261
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,010
So that it was his vision really.

262
00:14:45,010 --> 00:14:46,900
And I wanted to, you know,
pay pave my respects.

263
00:14:46,900 --> 00:14:51,700
He died earlier in the year, so
it was due to Rick Collins vision.

264
00:14:51,790 --> 00:14:55,630
And then, you know, we just ran with,
you know, I answered the ad and, and

265
00:14:55,630 --> 00:14:58,930
was interviewed and you know, we just
got on and I just thought it was lovely.

266
00:14:58,930 --> 00:15:03,340
'cause I've, I had worked in aged care for
a while as a chaplain, so for me, grief

267
00:15:03,340 --> 00:15:05,470
and loss, it was always something that.

268
00:15:06,459 --> 00:15:10,689
And I felt drawn to a, felt that I
had the gifts for that, and it didn't

269
00:15:10,689 --> 00:15:13,780
worry me sitting next to someone who
was grieving or someone who was dying.

270
00:15:13,780 --> 00:15:15,910
I just felt that was a
natural process of life.

271
00:15:16,420 --> 00:15:21,640
So to extend that with the human
side in chaplaincy, but to have

272
00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:26,079
the bonus of being there with
animals as well was a real plus.

273
00:15:26,650 --> 00:15:28,329
My late husband didn't actually.

274
00:15:28,740 --> 00:15:29,280
I mean, I did.

275
00:15:29,730 --> 00:15:30,870
I did run it past him.

276
00:15:30,870 --> 00:15:33,900
I mean, you know, I was going to go for
the job anyway, but that wasn't the point.

277
00:15:33,900 --> 00:15:37,530
He said, yes, you can go if you
don't take a handbag to work, meaning

278
00:15:37,770 --> 00:15:39,720
you know that you don't put things
in your handbag, take 'em home.

279
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,090
He should have just said, don't
come home with other animals.

280
00:15:42,090 --> 00:15:43,650
That would've been clearer, but he didn't.

281
00:15:43,650 --> 00:15:45,120
So I came home with lots.

282
00:15:45,420 --> 00:15:50,760
So I was there for five and a half
years, and so 1500 people a year I

283
00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:52,290
would speak to about grief and loss.

284
00:15:52,290 --> 00:15:52,830
Wow.

285
00:15:52,980 --> 00:15:53,610
So.

286
00:15:54,540 --> 00:15:55,500
Writing a book.

287
00:15:55,500 --> 00:15:58,410
I mean, I, you know, I, I include
some of those reflections.

288
00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:01,290
I mean, they've changed them, but
some of the letters from clients,

289
00:16:02,250 --> 00:16:06,060
and it was when I began, within the
first week, I had someone ring me

290
00:16:06,060 --> 00:16:09,420
and say their dog died two years ago.

291
00:16:09,420 --> 00:16:11,819
They haven't been able to talk to
anyone about it because they're

292
00:16:11,819 --> 00:16:13,380
afraid of what people will say.

293
00:16:13,525 --> 00:16:17,245
And that's when I thought,
wow, you know, this is, this is

294
00:16:17,245 --> 00:16:19,045
something that needs to be changed.

295
00:16:19,645 --> 00:16:24,985
And I feel very privileged that I was able
to help that number of people every year.

296
00:16:25,735 --> 00:16:28,465
And with the book, hopefully you
know, more people and to break

297
00:16:28,465 --> 00:16:31,525
down some of those barriers
and some of those stereotypes.

298
00:16:31,525 --> 00:16:33,834
And I think most people
love their animals.

299
00:16:33,865 --> 00:16:37,225
I mean, I know that's not always the
case, but you know, I like to think

300
00:16:37,225 --> 00:16:41,155
that most people do, and I think
most animal lovers are lovely people.

301
00:16:42,005 --> 00:16:45,665
But it's that, that recognition
that, you know, we could do better.

302
00:16:45,665 --> 00:16:49,145
So I, I felt really privileged to
have been there helping with grief and

303
00:16:49,145 --> 00:16:53,345
loss and then going on further and,
and writing other books about animals

304
00:16:53,345 --> 00:16:55,025
because they're my, you know, my love.

305
00:16:55,415 --> 00:16:57,395
And to me, they're part of our family.

306
00:16:57,395 --> 00:17:00,935
You know, our fur brethren,
you know, I've always thought

307
00:17:00,935 --> 00:17:02,435
of them as, you know, family.

308
00:17:02,435 --> 00:17:07,415
So whether it's our pets or our wild
animals, you know, how do we make

309
00:17:07,415 --> 00:17:08,795
it a better world for all of them?

310
00:17:08,855 --> 00:17:10,085
So, yeah.

311
00:17:10,775 --> 00:17:11,555
So I had fun.

312
00:17:11,855 --> 00:17:16,865
It certainly sounds like you have,
and, and what I love about your writing

313
00:17:16,865 --> 00:17:20,645
is the fact that you combined your.

314
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:28,770
Compassion for animals with also amazing
facts and historical information as

315
00:17:28,770 --> 00:17:33,660
well, which just provides such an
interesting insight to the subject.

316
00:17:34,290 --> 00:17:38,550
And I'm not surprised that
given the role that you had at

317
00:17:38,550 --> 00:17:40,380
the LOR Smith Animal Hospital.

318
00:17:41,044 --> 00:17:46,385
You know, when I think about when
you go to a vet, it is a time where

319
00:17:46,835 --> 00:17:51,304
you're either, you know, getting their
vaccinations and their annual checkup, or

320
00:17:51,304 --> 00:17:54,635
if you've got something wrong and you've
found that they've either either have

321
00:17:54,635 --> 00:17:57,095
a lump or something like that and it.

322
00:17:57,825 --> 00:18:04,215
Very few times at any other point in
our lives, do we get to make or are

323
00:18:04,215 --> 00:18:09,105
in a situation where we can decide to
euthanize and go through that process.

324
00:18:09,465 --> 00:18:15,075
And I think it's really at that time
when you have that relationship with

325
00:18:15,075 --> 00:18:18,975
a vet, that you go through those
conversations because very rarely.

326
00:18:19,530 --> 00:18:24,090
Do we get that opportunity when we go
through our natural life that unless

327
00:18:24,090 --> 00:18:28,379
we have a, a life limiting illness and,
and now we obviously have voluntary

328
00:18:28,379 --> 00:18:33,120
assisted dying, which is a very different
process and, and by no means euthanasia,

329
00:18:33,540 --> 00:18:35,610
but I do want to talk to you about.

330
00:18:36,615 --> 00:18:39,705
Just that element because it is
something that, it seems to be very

331
00:18:39,705 --> 00:18:46,215
unique to being in a, a veterinarian
environment and how grief plays out

332
00:18:46,215 --> 00:18:48,225
around that decision making process.

333
00:18:48,225 --> 00:18:49,665
When we have that decision,

334
00:18:50,295 --> 00:18:51,345
and it's something that.

335
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,450
Differs pet loss from human loss.

336
00:18:54,540 --> 00:18:54,600
Yeah.

337
00:18:55,680 --> 00:19:01,380
And we are often, as the carer, as the,
you know, the dog's owner or companion,

338
00:19:01,530 --> 00:19:03,270
we are there having to make that decision.

339
00:19:03,330 --> 00:19:06,780
And I always would say to clients, it's
always with veterinary advice as well.

340
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:09,960
You're not making it on your own
because it feels like we are,

341
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:11,160
it feels like we are saying.

342
00:19:11,215 --> 00:19:14,725
You know, and there's a lot of guilt
attached to that, and that's part of

343
00:19:14,845 --> 00:19:16,945
one of the layers of, of the grief.

344
00:19:17,034 --> 00:19:21,475
If, you know, if the animal has had to
be euthanized, we could, we can feel,

345
00:19:21,925 --> 00:19:23,605
oh, I should have left it another day.

346
00:19:23,814 --> 00:19:26,635
Could have, you know, I should
made that decision a's time.

347
00:19:27,530 --> 00:19:28,280
Might have been all right.

348
00:19:28,460 --> 00:19:29,630
I was just emotional.

349
00:19:29,930 --> 00:19:33,590
All of those things can come back
and we relive and we relive and we

350
00:19:33,590 --> 00:19:35,150
think we've made the wrong decision.

351
00:19:35,510 --> 00:19:39,830
So that is why I always say it's always
with veterinary advice because they

352
00:19:39,830 --> 00:19:44,150
will say, you know, what needs to be
done if an animal is suffering, and you

353
00:19:44,150 --> 00:19:49,040
know, with your own animals, they hide
their pain and, and, and their disease

354
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:50,900
processes are different from humans.

355
00:19:51,110 --> 00:19:52,865
So sometimes I'd have people who.

356
00:19:53,175 --> 00:19:56,805
Go away maybe for two weeks on
holiday, come back, their animal's

357
00:19:56,805 --> 00:19:59,865
really ill and they feel guilty
because they, they didn't know.

358
00:20:00,165 --> 00:20:02,715
Well often they, there wouldn't have
been anything they would've known because

359
00:20:02,805 --> 00:20:04,365
the disease process is so different.

360
00:20:04,875 --> 00:20:08,265
So we can have that guilt as well,
thinking I should have picked this up.

361
00:20:08,265 --> 00:20:09,585
I should have done differently here.

362
00:20:10,245 --> 00:20:14,325
And also part of the messiness
of it is what that is.

363
00:20:14,355 --> 00:20:17,295
Perhaps what that animal has
meant in that person's life.

364
00:20:17,655 --> 00:20:22,035
I had one person who was distraught
that she was going to have to

365
00:20:22,035 --> 00:20:25,275
euthanize her animal because
that dog had got her through her

366
00:20:25,275 --> 00:20:27,345
breast cancer had been on the her.

367
00:20:28,535 --> 00:20:31,685
24 7 helped her being her support.

368
00:20:31,895 --> 00:20:35,495
But she said, I could not put
my dog through that treatment.

369
00:20:35,555 --> 00:20:37,805
I could not put my dog
through chemotherapy.

370
00:20:37,865 --> 00:20:41,105
When the dog can't understand why
they're feeling sick or why this

371
00:20:41,105 --> 00:20:42,215
will happen, why that'll happen.

372
00:20:42,365 --> 00:20:46,715
She said, as a human I knew and it
was awful, but I couldn't put my dog

373
00:20:46,715 --> 00:20:51,065
through that, so, so we come with lots
of guilt, lots of different layers.

374
00:20:51,605 --> 00:20:52,475
Nothing's just.

375
00:20:52,525 --> 00:20:58,015
Pure and simple, but I think it's
that element of guilt with euthanasia.

376
00:20:58,075 --> 00:21:01,525
Even though we know we can
relieve that animal's suffering,

377
00:21:01,555 --> 00:21:02,515
it's never long enough.

378
00:21:02,515 --> 00:21:05,545
I mean, an animal's life is so
short and that's part of it.

379
00:21:05,575 --> 00:21:07,045
We don't do the maths, do we?

380
00:21:07,285 --> 00:21:10,465
You know, mathematics is not what we do
when we take on a pet because we think,

381
00:21:10,555 --> 00:21:12,505
oh, I might get 12 years, if I'm lucky.

382
00:21:12,505 --> 00:21:15,745
Might get 15, you know,
17, if you're really lucky.

383
00:21:16,460 --> 00:21:17,000
But you don't.

384
00:21:17,060 --> 00:21:19,370
And every year when you, when you're
perhaps having the vaccination,

385
00:21:19,370 --> 00:21:22,305
you look and you think, really,
oh, are they really that old now?

386
00:21:22,445 --> 00:21:22,865
Really?

387
00:21:23,805 --> 00:21:28,310
And that, and that's really hard even
thinking about COVID and, and the number

388
00:21:28,310 --> 00:21:31,670
of people who said they, they wouldn't
have been able to really survive well

389
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,650
mentally if they hadn't had a pet.

390
00:21:34,305 --> 00:21:38,415
So we look at how there've been such
support and hopefully through COVID it

391
00:21:38,415 --> 00:21:43,425
did teach people the value of animals and
just what wonderful companions they are.

392
00:21:43,995 --> 00:21:47,085
But again, when that support's
gone, it's really hard.

393
00:21:47,085 --> 00:21:51,135
And if you've had to make that decision
about life and death, and you know,

394
00:21:51,135 --> 00:21:54,165
some people say, but you know, I
feel like I'm playing God in that.

395
00:21:54,825 --> 00:21:57,735
And I say, well, in that case you hand
that over to your vet. And I've always

396
00:21:57,735 --> 00:22:02,595
said to people, if you doubt it, you
ring the vet the next day, have a talk.

397
00:22:04,115 --> 00:22:04,745
I do the right thing.

398
00:22:04,745 --> 00:22:05,435
Of course you did.

399
00:22:05,435 --> 00:22:07,565
But you need someone to
reassure you on that.

400
00:22:11,625 --> 00:22:16,455
I mean, for me, I, I would make sure
that clients had someone with them if

401
00:22:16,455 --> 00:22:20,774
possible, or were there for maybe half
an hour with a cup of tea before they

402
00:22:20,774 --> 00:22:24,435
drove home, because that's a really
hard thing to expect someone to get in

403
00:22:24,435 --> 00:22:26,235
their car and drive home after that.

404
00:22:27,014 --> 00:22:29,595
And especially, and if it's
been a shock, if they were not

405
00:22:29,595 --> 00:22:31,215
expecting that and it's, you know.

406
00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:34,179
This is the only, only situation.

407
00:22:34,179 --> 00:22:37,629
This is, you know, the animal is in such
agony due to something we need to relieve

408
00:22:37,659 --> 00:22:40,149
the animal suffering now to drive home.

409
00:22:40,149 --> 00:22:42,100
You know, that, that's a really big ask.

410
00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:45,939
So it's, you know, to be able to give
them some space and some time or to

411
00:22:45,939 --> 00:22:49,780
get someone else to be, come in to
take them home is really important.

412
00:22:49,929 --> 00:22:50,200
Yeah.

413
00:22:50,679 --> 00:22:57,310
And how can we support someone who has
lost a pet and, and, and it might be

414
00:22:57,310 --> 00:22:59,620
sudden or it might be have been expected.

415
00:22:59,949 --> 00:23:04,389
What are the sort of things that we can
do to support someone in that situation?

416
00:23:05,199 --> 00:23:09,189
Sometimes if you're not sure what to
say, you don't have to say anything.

417
00:23:09,645 --> 00:23:13,425
If it's someone you know, you
can go and give them a hug or you

418
00:23:13,425 --> 00:23:15,315
can buy a pet condolence card.

419
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,305
Most supermar, most news agents have
a, you know, a pet condolence card

420
00:23:19,305 --> 00:23:22,335
or you can make your own or just
take in a, you know, sorry, card.

421
00:23:23,879 --> 00:23:26,129
It's not the time to weigh things up.

422
00:23:26,340 --> 00:23:26,550
You know?

423
00:23:26,790 --> 00:23:30,395
It's not the time to slip into
the, oh, it was just a dog or,

424
00:23:30,399 --> 00:23:32,490
or you had the dog for 13 years.

425
00:23:32,490 --> 00:23:33,600
That was a good innings.

426
00:23:33,780 --> 00:23:34,649
That doesn't help.

427
00:23:34,889 --> 00:23:37,320
The same as if you said that about
a human member of the family.

428
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:38,250
Well, they're 80.

429
00:23:38,250 --> 00:23:42,360
That still doesn't make it any easier
at all, or that, oh, it's only a

430
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:46,169
dog I had people would say, someone
would say, oh, it was just a dog.

431
00:23:46,169 --> 00:23:47,790
What about the dying in India?

432
00:23:48,315 --> 00:23:49,725
I mean, there's no correlation.

433
00:23:49,995 --> 00:23:52,725
And then the person feels worse
thinking, well, here I am getting

434
00:23:52,785 --> 00:23:55,935
upset about my dog, and there are
people dying around the world, but

435
00:23:55,935 --> 00:23:57,285
that shouldn't even come into that.

436
00:23:57,345 --> 00:23:59,805
As I said, it's like that weighing
up the grief on the scales.

437
00:24:00,075 --> 00:24:01,245
You don't just don't do that.

438
00:24:01,605 --> 00:24:05,865
So either you get it and you can
go in and say, I'm really sorry.

439
00:24:06,555 --> 00:24:07,815
Is there anything I can do?

440
00:24:07,845 --> 00:24:12,405
And asking that question really is I
think one of the most basic things.

441
00:24:12,405 --> 00:24:13,575
Is there anything I can do?

442
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,780
And it might be, no, not yet, but
maybe in a couple of days I, I'd

443
00:24:18,780 --> 00:24:20,100
like to talk to you about this.

444
00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:22,440
Or would you come with me on my next walk?

445
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,370
I still wanna walk, but I don't
feel up to it without a dog or,

446
00:24:26,460 --> 00:24:30,090
you know, so you don't have to even
get into a comparison with anything

447
00:24:30,540 --> 00:24:32,070
it's saying, how can I help you?

448
00:24:32,310 --> 00:24:35,220
And especially for people
who haven't had a pet, don't

449
00:24:35,220 --> 00:24:36,540
understand the depth of grief.

450
00:24:37,110 --> 00:24:39,510
Even just saying, I'm
sorry for your loss is.

451
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,920
Is well and truly appreciated.

452
00:24:44,340 --> 00:24:46,860
Don't cross the street and say
nothing, is really what I'm saying.

453
00:24:47,310 --> 00:24:51,930
That's so true, Barbara, and I think that
point that you just raised in relation

454
00:24:51,930 --> 00:24:56,850
to if they'd had a pet that they would
take for a walk on a regular basis.

455
00:24:57,120 --> 00:25:00,720
Mm. That's another habit that would
actually be a constant reminder.

456
00:25:00,925 --> 00:25:05,695
So that's a really lovely suggestion
to ask whether you would like to,

457
00:25:06,175 --> 00:25:07,825
you know, go on a walk with them.

458
00:25:07,915 --> 00:25:10,675
I think that that's a, a
really beautiful suggestion.

459
00:25:11,395 --> 00:25:14,695
You talk about the idea of a shared heart.

460
00:25:15,205 --> 00:25:18,745
Can you take me through
what that term means to you?

461
00:25:19,380 --> 00:25:22,530
Well, for me it's a shared
heart at two different aspects.

462
00:25:22,530 --> 00:25:27,180
One is a shared heart with your
animal, and I think for most of us,

463
00:25:27,390 --> 00:25:32,040
we feel that they're always in our
hearts and even thinking about walking

464
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,230
our dogs when our dogs have died.

465
00:25:34,260 --> 00:25:38,970
I would still go for my walk without
Rosa, and I think of her next to me.

466
00:25:39,335 --> 00:25:43,055
You know, my spirit dog, she could
go more, more quickly now because

467
00:25:43,055 --> 00:25:44,555
you know, she was young again.

468
00:25:44,945 --> 00:25:48,095
So I would still do that and
sometimes I'd have tears running

469
00:25:48,095 --> 00:25:50,435
down my cheeks and other dog owners.

470
00:25:50,495 --> 00:25:52,415
There's this, like this
shared community out there.

471
00:25:52,415 --> 00:25:55,055
You might not know the name of
the person, but you probably

472
00:25:55,055 --> 00:25:56,075
know the name of their dog.

473
00:25:56,645 --> 00:25:57,785
So they would understand.

474
00:25:57,845 --> 00:26:00,125
If you are without the
dog, they'll often ask.

475
00:26:00,620 --> 00:26:01,760
You know, are you all right?

476
00:26:01,970 --> 00:26:02,750
How's your dog?

477
00:26:03,170 --> 00:26:06,380
So you end up with this relationship
of people who you may not

478
00:26:06,380 --> 00:26:07,760
know, but they know your dog.

479
00:26:07,790 --> 00:26:10,580
And so there, there can
be that support too.

480
00:26:10,580 --> 00:26:14,480
So what I'm saying here, I mean, I'm
just cutting on a different thing, but

481
00:26:14,810 --> 00:26:18,770
don't rule out people that you would
normally not have said many words to.

482
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,660
They may understand you
more than you think.

483
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:21,110
So.

484
00:26:21,554 --> 00:26:23,625
Often nice little
communities of dog walkers.

485
00:26:24,524 --> 00:26:26,115
And now I've forgotten what you asked me.

486
00:26:26,715 --> 00:26:27,760
The shared heart.

487
00:26:28,179 --> 00:26:29,175
Oh, the shared heart.

488
00:26:29,475 --> 00:26:34,215
So that, that shared heart with
our animals, a shared heart with

489
00:26:34,695 --> 00:26:39,315
other people, a shared heart with
creation and that shared heart.

490
00:26:39,405 --> 00:26:42,315
I mean, it's interesting because
the, the title of the book has

491
00:26:42,315 --> 00:26:45,945
shared heart in it, but the titles
of the chapters have have more heart.

492
00:26:45,945 --> 00:26:47,625
So I think it's more that sharing.

493
00:26:48,584 --> 00:26:53,024
So there's that shared heart with
children, a shared heart with

494
00:26:53,054 --> 00:26:56,955
spiritual aspects and afterlife,
a shared heart with grief.

495
00:26:57,614 --> 00:27:01,034
And for me, it's important with children.

496
00:27:01,034 --> 00:27:03,074
And I might just launch
into that if that's okay.

497
00:27:03,074 --> 00:27:03,165
That.

498
00:27:05,114 --> 00:27:08,895
Sometimes people think, oh, having
an animal with children means

499
00:27:08,895 --> 00:27:12,014
that once an animal has died, that
will help them with human loss.

500
00:27:12,135 --> 00:27:16,395
And I kind of say, no, that's not why you
have a, that's not why you have a pet.

501
00:27:16,455 --> 00:27:19,905
And I don't remember the loss of my
animals helping me with the, you know,

502
00:27:19,905 --> 00:27:22,125
loss of, of my grandparents, for example.

503
00:27:22,485 --> 00:27:22,606
'cause each.

504
00:27:23,034 --> 00:27:24,145
Grief is different.

505
00:27:25,165 --> 00:27:29,245
It is difficult to talk about grief and
loss with children and at different ages.

506
00:27:29,245 --> 00:27:32,725
There are different at their different
stages at what they will take on what

507
00:27:32,784 --> 00:27:34,615
is too much for them at the time.

508
00:27:35,305 --> 00:27:38,245
But what I would really like to
say here is don't lie to them.

509
00:27:38,530 --> 00:27:42,520
Don't say, oh, your dog
went to live on a farm.

510
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:48,070
Or Don't go and get a rabbit that looks
the same as the one that died because

511
00:27:48,460 --> 00:27:49,780
the children will pick it up eventually.

512
00:27:49,780 --> 00:27:51,280
That's not the same personality.

513
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,950
And if you lie about that,
what else will you know?

514
00:27:53,950 --> 00:27:54,550
Will they think?

515
00:27:54,550 --> 00:27:55,750
Are you gonna lie to me about?

516
00:27:55,750 --> 00:27:56,800
So be honest.

517
00:27:56,830 --> 00:28:00,790
And if you find that you are crying
a lot, just say, I'm sad too.

518
00:28:01,030 --> 00:28:04,870
And that's perfectly fine for
them to see their parents crying.

519
00:28:05,325 --> 00:28:08,534
That's like they're missing
the dog, the cat, the fish,

520
00:28:08,865 --> 00:28:10,425
and to say part of our family.

521
00:28:10,425 --> 00:28:11,685
And we feel this differently.

522
00:28:11,685 --> 00:28:14,325
And that's a good opening
for, for a conversation.

523
00:28:14,804 --> 00:28:17,985
And there are lots of beautiful
children's books and picture books that

524
00:28:17,985 --> 00:28:19,665
can help with pet loss with children.

525
00:28:19,935 --> 00:28:20,804
So that's one of them.

526
00:28:20,804 --> 00:28:21,645
The shared heart.

527
00:28:21,645 --> 00:28:22,965
The shared family heart.

528
00:28:23,655 --> 00:28:27,435
The other thing I wanted to say about
heart is that our hearts can break.

529
00:28:27,465 --> 00:28:30,795
I mean, this is about shattered hearts,
and there's a saying that there's

530
00:28:30,795 --> 00:28:33,615
no heart as whole as a broken heart.

531
00:28:34,935 --> 00:28:37,155
Only a broken heart will let in the light.

532
00:28:37,995 --> 00:28:42,615
So you might have a perfect heart
unbroken, but it doesn't let in the light.

533
00:28:43,260 --> 00:28:45,450
Our hearts become mosaics in a sense.

534
00:28:45,450 --> 00:28:49,379
You know, we've got little bits of
memories here and hopefully other people,

535
00:28:49,530 --> 00:28:53,730
I like to think that people might have an
afternoon tea and talk about, you know,

536
00:28:54,090 --> 00:28:58,410
their loss and, and have, you know, maybe
friends come and visit and maybe a story

537
00:28:58,410 --> 00:29:01,020
that they tell will be part of that.

538
00:29:01,110 --> 00:29:03,425
You know, another bit of the
mosaic that goes into your heart.

539
00:29:03,524 --> 00:29:06,540
Oh, that story, didn't know
that that goes in there.

540
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,250
And through that you've got the
light, and that light is made up from.

541
00:29:11,930 --> 00:29:15,800
Tears and love, you know that
that's kept that heart shiny.

542
00:29:16,370 --> 00:29:19,520
It hurts 'cause there are
shards, but they're memories.

543
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,440
And you are, you are different.

544
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:26,240
You are changed as every grief changes
one, you are not the same person.

545
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,290
So how do we live to be the
person that dog thought we were?

546
00:29:30,380 --> 00:29:30,710
You know?

547
00:29:30,710 --> 00:29:34,070
And that to me is one of
their life lessons for us.

548
00:29:34,190 --> 00:29:38,510
How do we live to be the one who loves,
who tries to love unconditionally?

549
00:29:38,510 --> 00:29:40,490
We humans can't do that, but we try.

550
00:29:41,055 --> 00:29:42,225
How do we learn to forgive?

551
00:29:42,255 --> 00:29:46,575
I mean, my, one of my dogs, she
had gunshot pellets in her legs.

552
00:29:46,575 --> 00:29:48,735
She had cigarette burns on her neck.

553
00:29:49,455 --> 00:29:53,115
She should have hated humans,
but she, she loved us all.

554
00:29:53,295 --> 00:29:54,915
You know, she loved everyone she met.

555
00:29:55,125 --> 00:29:56,115
So how do we forgive?

556
00:29:56,910 --> 00:29:57,810
How do we love?

557
00:29:58,050 --> 00:29:59,220
How are we loyal?

558
00:29:59,310 --> 00:30:00,390
How are we faithful?

559
00:30:00,630 --> 00:30:02,070
How do we live in the moment?

560
00:30:02,340 --> 00:30:06,870
How do we suck all that we have in our
short lifespan for how many years we have?

561
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,720
How can we use that well,
like our animals do?

562
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,390
How do we not hold onto grudges?

563
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:14,130
All of that stuff.

564
00:30:14,130 --> 00:30:16,260
They teach us to be better human beings.

565
00:30:16,590 --> 00:30:18,570
So that's, that's part
of what we have to do.

566
00:30:18,570 --> 00:30:22,530
We have to be better human beings
because that's what they want us to be.

567
00:30:22,740 --> 00:30:24,030
They want us to be like that.

568
00:30:24,510 --> 00:30:26,490
And that, to me is a real privilege.

569
00:30:26,490 --> 00:30:31,350
And it also, I think if we are
really, really careful and really,

570
00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:35,400
really attentive, they help us
deal with our own mortality.

571
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:37,979
We have a short period of time.

572
00:30:37,979 --> 00:30:42,780
They have a shorter lifespan probably
than us, but it will run out eventually.

573
00:30:42,780 --> 00:30:44,399
So how do we use it?

574
00:30:44,399 --> 00:30:44,790
Well,

575
00:30:45,689 --> 00:30:51,240
and what have you learned about
your mortality through your animals?

576
00:30:52,439 --> 00:30:53,340
Life is short.

577
00:30:53,790 --> 00:30:56,850
Life is short, so I try very hard.

578
00:30:56,850 --> 00:30:59,250
I am someone who tends
to worry a bit, you know?

579
00:30:59,250 --> 00:31:01,800
So I try very hard not
to because they don't.

580
00:31:02,250 --> 00:31:03,479
And to think, now, hold on.

581
00:31:04,425 --> 00:31:07,005
They live for the person that they love.

582
00:31:07,005 --> 00:31:09,045
You know, they wanna
share that time with them.

583
00:31:09,105 --> 00:31:13,905
They wanna go on the simple pleasures,
you know, going on a walk, going in a car.

584
00:31:14,025 --> 00:31:15,345
They don't want much.

585
00:31:15,525 --> 00:31:17,505
It's relational, and they teach us.

586
00:31:17,535 --> 00:31:19,755
It is about relationships.

587
00:31:20,325 --> 00:31:21,675
If you see a homeless person.

588
00:31:21,945 --> 00:31:23,655
With a dog, that dog loves them.

589
00:31:23,745 --> 00:31:24,945
They don't judge.

590
00:31:25,335 --> 00:31:27,105
They love that person, their essence.

591
00:31:27,435 --> 00:31:29,655
So how do we, you know, foster that?

592
00:31:29,655 --> 00:31:33,555
How do we make sure that
we are lovable, but.

593
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:36,630
And that's the other
thing with our animals.

594
00:31:36,630 --> 00:31:39,990
And if you take a dog for a walk,
you know, everything's exciting.

595
00:31:40,230 --> 00:31:40,590
Everything.

596
00:31:40,590 --> 00:31:45,150
Even if, if it gone the same way yesterday
or even two hours ago, it's all new.

597
00:31:45,210 --> 00:31:47,010
How do we embrace life like that?

598
00:31:47,670 --> 00:31:48,030
You know?

599
00:31:48,030 --> 00:31:50,880
And I think that's one of
the gifts they are to us.

600
00:31:51,150 --> 00:31:54,855
They teach us not only about
how to be better human beings,

601
00:31:55,035 --> 00:31:56,760
but how to get more out of life.

602
00:31:57,149 --> 00:32:02,429
That is so true when I think about
taking my dog for a walk, it, it is like

603
00:32:02,429 --> 00:32:07,470
every walk is like a new scent, a new
smell, a new, you know, new opportunity.

604
00:32:07,470 --> 00:32:11,879
And there is a curiosity in which
she looks at her daily walk.

605
00:32:11,879 --> 00:32:13,679
So I totally understand that.

606
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:14,790
And.

607
00:32:15,050 --> 00:32:19,729
What role do you think that
rituals and memorials play in

608
00:32:19,729 --> 00:32:21,620
our life when a, a pet does die?

609
00:32:21,919 --> 00:32:23,300
I think they're very important.

610
00:32:23,540 --> 00:32:26,629
I mean, for some people they don't
want to have anything, and that's

611
00:32:26,629 --> 00:32:31,489
perfectly fine, but sometimes it's, and
I don't use the word closure because I.

612
00:32:31,775 --> 00:32:33,155
For me, grief and closure.

613
00:32:33,155 --> 00:32:34,985
It's almost like there is an end time.

614
00:32:35,375 --> 00:32:38,855
I use acceptance rather than closure
because that to me is a, yeah.

615
00:32:38,915 --> 00:32:40,805
It's almost like it's
gotta be a certain time.

616
00:32:40,805 --> 00:32:42,305
And that was the other thing with grief.

617
00:32:42,305 --> 00:32:44,945
There's no set time, as you well know.

618
00:32:45,425 --> 00:32:47,255
Grief is grief, it's lifelong.

619
00:32:47,975 --> 00:32:51,725
So when I hear things like closure, when
I hear things like complicated grief,

620
00:32:52,535 --> 00:32:54,380
all complicated, you know, there's it.

621
00:32:55,169 --> 00:32:56,700
No unresolved.

622
00:32:56,700 --> 00:32:58,110
Of course it's never resolved.

623
00:32:58,110 --> 00:33:02,250
So those words, I think we, we could, well
for me, I throw them out, but acceptance

624
00:33:02,790 --> 00:33:07,470
and ritual can be a way of helping not
only acceptance, but to remember some of

625
00:33:07,470 --> 00:33:11,550
the beautiful memories and to have that,
whether with a family or with friends

626
00:33:11,550 --> 00:33:16,830
or on your own, a time to take the
space to say, this animal was important

627
00:33:16,830 --> 00:33:19,020
in my life, is still part of my life.

628
00:33:19,675 --> 00:33:21,475
What can I learn from my animal?

629
00:33:21,475 --> 00:33:26,245
What were the gifts that I
received and get lots of tears.

630
00:33:26,755 --> 00:33:30,505
But to be able to embrace
that and to say whether it's.

631
00:33:31,139 --> 00:33:34,409
And sometimes it'll be a burial,
sometimes it'll be cremation

632
00:33:34,950 --> 00:33:36,720
and what feels best for people.

633
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,420
But I always say, think about
your living arrangements.

634
00:33:39,420 --> 00:33:43,230
If you are renting, perhaps burial
is not what you want because you, you

635
00:33:43,230 --> 00:33:45,780
know, you will probably move one day.

636
00:33:46,050 --> 00:33:50,280
So it's looking long term as well, and
having to make those decisions too.

637
00:33:50,820 --> 00:33:53,940
And I think for children too,
to be able to draw a picture.

638
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,490
You know, whether it's whether to
go in in the grave or to have and

639
00:33:57,490 --> 00:34:01,990
put on the fridge, you know, write
a letter, all of those things.

640
00:34:01,990 --> 00:34:06,639
I think it's that being able to give
something back to the one who you

641
00:34:06,639 --> 00:34:08,679
love deeply and who loved you deeply.

642
00:34:08,889 --> 00:34:09,219
Yeah.

643
00:34:09,730 --> 00:34:10,659
That's lovely.

644
00:34:12,375 --> 00:34:18,315
Tell me how, um, can, you know,
vets, shelters, even funeral

645
00:34:18,315 --> 00:34:24,255
professionals, support people who
are grieving when they lose their pet

646
00:34:24,884 --> 00:34:25,514
these days?

647
00:34:25,514 --> 00:34:30,315
I think vets I do think are getting some
lectures in their training, but there's

648
00:34:30,315 --> 00:34:34,620
plenty of stuff online and books, not only
mine, but o other books about pet loss.

649
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,770
Maybe, I mean, vets are often
very scientifically based and

650
00:34:40,770 --> 00:34:43,740
sometimes the emotions can be
difficult for them to cope with.

651
00:34:44,250 --> 00:34:48,390
In some practices, there'll be, might
be a particular receptionist or a

652
00:34:48,390 --> 00:34:53,310
vet nurse who are seen as the ones
who deal more with those emotions.

653
00:34:53,310 --> 00:34:57,390
It just depends on the practice, but
not to ignore them and sometimes.

654
00:34:57,859 --> 00:35:02,089
You know, a lot of practices will send out
a card or make a phone call the next day.

655
00:35:02,420 --> 00:35:04,730
Those things are really important
'cause I also think they can

656
00:35:04,734 --> 00:35:06,230
make, make or break a practice.

657
00:35:06,230 --> 00:35:10,549
If, if the client feels cared for,
then they'll, they'll go back or

658
00:35:10,819 --> 00:35:12,319
feel, yes, they've checked on me.

659
00:35:12,980 --> 00:35:15,799
You know, and it might be someone
who's brought their dog or

660
00:35:15,799 --> 00:35:18,109
cat in for the past 12 years.

661
00:35:18,529 --> 00:35:20,839
So how do we honor that relationship?

662
00:35:21,225 --> 00:35:23,564
And how do we care for that client?

663
00:35:23,714 --> 00:35:26,504
Not necessarily saying we want the
client back and that's another grief.

664
00:35:26,504 --> 00:35:30,044
They may not have another pet
because of age or circumstances,

665
00:35:30,044 --> 00:35:34,214
and that's another grief that, you
know, need to think about as well.

666
00:35:34,665 --> 00:35:38,325
But for vets, there's certainly,
you know, material online.

667
00:35:38,595 --> 00:35:42,075
There's no excuse now to say, I don't
understand grief and loss there.

668
00:35:42,104 --> 00:35:43,245
There's plenty of material.

669
00:35:43,515 --> 00:35:46,785
And if they don't feel comfortable
with it to make sure there's someone in

670
00:35:46,785 --> 00:35:49,875
the practice who does feel comfortable
with it, to be able to support.

671
00:35:50,195 --> 00:35:50,884
Clients.

672
00:35:51,395 --> 00:35:56,735
That's something that I had forgotten
was we received a card after our cat

673
00:35:56,735 --> 00:35:58,715
died, and that was really lovely.

674
00:35:58,715 --> 00:35:59,285
You're right.

675
00:35:59,345 --> 00:36:04,085
It was also that end of that relationship
for that particular point in time.

676
00:36:04,325 --> 00:36:04,415
Mm-hmm.

677
00:36:04,655 --> 00:36:08,915
And you don't know at that point whether
you'll continue or get another pet.

678
00:36:08,915 --> 00:36:12,945
So it is, I. I had forgotten about
that process, that it is another

679
00:36:12,945 --> 00:36:17,595
grieving stage that you, or, you
know, process you go through in that.

680
00:36:18,525 --> 00:36:24,225
How did writing the book and going
through collating the letters and,

681
00:36:24,225 --> 00:36:28,785
and thinking about your time at
the LOR Smith Animal Hospital, what

682
00:36:28,785 --> 00:36:31,275
did you glean from that experience?

683
00:36:31,275 --> 00:36:31,725
Barbara?

684
00:36:32,340 --> 00:36:34,800
I mean, I found it therapeutic
'cause my husband died at

685
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,210
the beginning of writing it.

686
00:36:36,570 --> 00:36:39,570
I mean, I was so pleased that he
knew I was, I had a contract for it.

687
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,310
'cause he said, it's a
book you're meant to write.

688
00:36:41,850 --> 00:36:43,380
So I felt good about that.

689
00:36:43,620 --> 00:36:47,340
And in a sense it was very, you know,
the, I, I just, it was so cathartic.

690
00:36:47,340 --> 00:36:48,570
I cried all the way through it.

691
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,360
At the same time I was writing
a book about extinction.

692
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,180
So, you know, next time I might do, you
know, a mills and boon or something.

693
00:36:54,180 --> 00:36:58,050
You know, it's something with a
bit of, I thought death and death.

694
00:36:58,440 --> 00:36:59,070
So whether it was.

695
00:36:59,230 --> 00:37:01,810
Pet loss or writing eulogies
about extinct animals.

696
00:37:01,810 --> 00:37:02,710
It was like, ah.

697
00:37:03,250 --> 00:37:06,700
But it was helpful for me, I think,
and only as I was rereading it today,

698
00:37:06,700 --> 00:37:08,050
I thought, oh, it wasn't too bad.

699
00:37:08,410 --> 00:37:11,020
Oh, no, because I, because I hadn't, I
hadn't really gone back to look at it.

700
00:37:11,020 --> 00:37:12,610
'cause I was, I thought I would be awful.

701
00:37:12,610 --> 00:37:15,220
You know, I, I don't remember what
I was like at that stage except

702
00:37:15,220 --> 00:37:20,290
tears, but I did always want to
write a book about it to help others.

703
00:37:20,290 --> 00:37:23,860
I mean, that's the sole purpose of
writing the book to help others.

704
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:27,045
I, I loved my time.

705
00:37:27,045 --> 00:37:28,275
I loved my time at Lor Smith.

706
00:37:28,275 --> 00:37:32,475
It was so rewarding to meet
so many beautiful people, to

707
00:37:32,475 --> 00:37:34,095
meet so many beautiful animals.

708
00:37:34,305 --> 00:37:37,365
I used to sit in my waiting room and
I could hear the animals being called,

709
00:37:37,365 --> 00:37:41,595
and you know, one might be called
Genesis or Moses or something, or Boris,

710
00:37:41,595 --> 00:37:44,505
and you think of this, you know, big
animal, be this tiny little chihuahua

711
00:37:44,505 --> 00:37:45,520
or something, you know, like you.

712
00:37:45,635 --> 00:37:49,085
Just, you know, so many funny
stories, but beautiful people.

713
00:37:49,565 --> 00:37:53,405
And I just felt being able to put some
of that in the book and going through

714
00:37:53,405 --> 00:37:59,465
the letters and also realizing how
significant it was for them, for the

715
00:37:59,465 --> 00:38:01,895
human clients to have someone who cared.

716
00:38:01,895 --> 00:38:04,715
And I think that's what I wanted
to get across in the book.

717
00:38:04,895 --> 00:38:06,515
We can all make a difference.

718
00:38:07,115 --> 00:38:09,455
We don't have to be working
somewhere to make a difference.

719
00:38:09,635 --> 00:38:10,385
We can just.

720
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,270
Courtesy of being a human, we
can help someone breathe a little

721
00:38:14,270 --> 00:38:16,700
better that day because we said,
is there anything I can do?

722
00:38:17,750 --> 00:38:20,570
And, and, you know, I'd reread the
letters and just burst into tears.

723
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,530
'cause some of them were so moving
and so beautiful and I could see the

724
00:38:24,530 --> 00:38:26,270
client and see their animal well.

725
00:38:26,270 --> 00:38:27,230
And it was a privilege.

726
00:38:27,470 --> 00:38:28,670
All of it was privilege.

727
00:38:28,670 --> 00:38:32,450
I just felt so, so fortunate to
have been in the right place at the

728
00:38:32,450 --> 00:38:34,880
right time and had that experience.

729
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,190
So, yeah, loved it.

730
00:38:37,895 --> 00:38:42,395
And it's interesting that you say
that that period of time you can't

731
00:38:42,395 --> 00:38:46,205
really even remember because that's
the whole grieving process, isn't it?

732
00:38:46,205 --> 00:38:49,265
That brain fog that that comes over you.

733
00:38:49,715 --> 00:38:51,965
And so tell me, what do you think?

734
00:38:52,950 --> 00:38:59,940
During that process and with the fact that
your husband had died, was it his death

735
00:38:59,940 --> 00:39:04,830
that informed some of the writing, or
was it your writing that was a reflective

736
00:39:04,830 --> 00:39:06,780
process of your time with the pets?

737
00:39:07,110 --> 00:39:11,670
How much do you think is entwined
in that process as you were writing?

738
00:39:12,330 --> 00:39:13,650
I think some of it was.

739
00:39:14,305 --> 00:39:17,485
I mean, he'd been ill for quite a number
of years and going through all the

740
00:39:17,485 --> 00:39:21,745
specialists and all, all of the stuff
that I thought if he'd been a dog, we

741
00:39:21,745 --> 00:39:22,825
might've done something differently.

742
00:39:22,825 --> 00:39:25,615
You know, like it would've spared
him the suffering, et cetera.

743
00:39:25,615 --> 00:39:26,935
So it would've been a different end.

744
00:39:27,925 --> 00:39:31,095
But I always remember our dog,
Harry, I. Who's at my feet still.

745
00:39:31,785 --> 00:39:32,444
He's elderly.

746
00:39:32,504 --> 00:39:34,035
He's totally blind now.

747
00:39:34,035 --> 00:39:38,895
When my husband was diagnosed with
facial cancer and then brain tumor, he

748
00:39:38,895 --> 00:39:45,225
went blind, but he took great heart from
Harry because he said, if this dog is

749
00:39:45,225 --> 00:39:49,515
totally, and he is very much his dog,
and it was like, if he can be happy.

750
00:39:50,100 --> 00:39:51,300
And he can't see anything.

751
00:39:51,630 --> 00:39:53,640
I too can be happy and find joy.

752
00:39:54,180 --> 00:40:00,180
So that dog had made such a
difference in those final years

753
00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:04,230
that I would never be able to repay
Harry ever even chicken every day.

754
00:40:04,230 --> 00:40:07,950
I could never repay him for how
he got my husband through that.

755
00:40:08,460 --> 00:40:09,240
And that's his thing.

756
00:40:09,330 --> 00:40:11,280
Grief is grief upon grief.

757
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,530
I mean, to be born means we grieve.

758
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,475
We can't go through life without grieving.

759
00:40:16,055 --> 00:40:21,095
But if we value that, and I think having
worked as a chaplain in aged care for

760
00:40:21,095 --> 00:40:26,405
a number of years and nursed before
that, I just felt very drawn to that and

761
00:40:26,675 --> 00:40:29,045
knowing that life does have an end point.

762
00:40:29,075 --> 00:40:33,995
I mean, I, there was some commercials
on TV that just really upset me because

763
00:40:33,995 --> 00:40:35,230
it's, you know, if you use this.

764
00:40:35,609 --> 00:40:38,160
Beauty product, it's almost
like, well, you'll cheat death.

765
00:40:38,430 --> 00:40:39,630
No, you don't cheat death.

766
00:40:39,779 --> 00:40:44,370
You know, it's so, so let's realize
that, you know, people will say,

767
00:40:44,730 --> 00:40:48,299
oh, cancer saved me because I,
you know, I live life differently.

768
00:40:48,299 --> 00:40:50,730
And I said, you don't need
cancer to live differently.

769
00:40:50,850 --> 00:40:51,720
You know, it's.

770
00:40:51,780 --> 00:40:54,870
You don't need a terminal
illness to live differently.

771
00:40:54,870 --> 00:40:58,620
We can live differently by making
that choice to live fully and be

772
00:40:58,620 --> 00:41:03,180
totally alive and to embrace the
things that bring us joy and and our

773
00:41:03,180 --> 00:41:04,770
families and all of those things.

774
00:41:06,090 --> 00:41:09,510
But as you said, that brain fog,
I really was quite surprised.

775
00:41:09,870 --> 00:41:11,970
That the writing was a,
a pretty good quality.

776
00:41:11,970 --> 00:41:16,170
I, because as I said, I was a bit
frightened to reread it to thinking,

777
00:41:16,170 --> 00:41:21,300
what if I went, oh, but I think I
just felt it was an important book to

778
00:41:21,300 --> 00:41:24,750
write and the fact that he knew I was
going to be writing it gave me that

779
00:41:24,810 --> 00:41:30,870
push and that strength to keep going
through and everything to do with grief.

780
00:41:31,020 --> 00:41:34,590
It's always, I, you know,
reflect back and say, what doing?

781
00:41:35,895 --> 00:41:39,435
Hard here, and yeah, and it's,
yeah, it's still very messy.

782
00:41:39,435 --> 00:41:44,025
Still awful, still raw, but
that grief is the price of love.

783
00:41:44,115 --> 00:41:46,485
And that's the bottom line.

784
00:41:46,485 --> 00:41:48,555
And I say to people, you can either love.

785
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:54,930
You'll probably eventually grieve, or you
can do without the loving and just have

786
00:41:54,930 --> 00:41:57,570
a, a life that isn't as, as as joyful.

787
00:41:57,810 --> 00:41:58,770
It's a choice.

788
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:03,390
And yeah, it's, you know, there's
that saying that, you know, dogs

789
00:42:03,540 --> 00:42:06,330
will give you your best day of your
life, but also one of your worst.

790
00:42:06,545 --> 00:42:08,675
And you could say that
about anyone in the family.

791
00:42:08,705 --> 00:42:12,005
And that's, you know, we, we go through
and we might have a, you know, a year

792
00:42:12,005 --> 00:42:14,134
or two without someone we know who dies.

793
00:42:14,134 --> 00:42:16,835
But then you might get
three or four in that year.

794
00:42:16,835 --> 00:42:20,195
And, and it's that treasuring of
that, those friendships and how they

795
00:42:20,195 --> 00:42:21,665
have made you the person you are.

796
00:42:22,145 --> 00:42:24,125
And that's the thing
from pet loss as well.

797
00:42:24,395 --> 00:42:28,384
You know, what sort of person has your
pet made you be, you know, might be more

798
00:42:28,384 --> 00:42:32,495
patient, might be more accommodating,
might be even fitter because you had been

799
00:42:32,495 --> 00:42:34,565
out walking all of those things, you know?

800
00:42:34,895 --> 00:42:35,105
Yeah.

801
00:42:35,225 --> 00:42:36,065
They change us.

802
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:37,930
And grief changes us.

803
00:42:39,060 --> 00:42:44,340
I'm intrigued to know whether you have
a favorite pet or a favorite animal.

804
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:48,780
You have written about
pigeons and then pelicans.

805
00:42:48,780 --> 00:42:53,070
They're two very diverse and perhaps
opposite ends of the spectrum when

806
00:42:53,070 --> 00:42:54,870
it comes to the feathered friends.

807
00:42:55,410 --> 00:43:00,630
So, you know, is there, is
there a favorite animal for you?

808
00:43:01,410 --> 00:43:03,570
Well, goose is coming out soon too.

809
00:43:03,570 --> 00:43:06,540
Oh, so there you've
got, I've goose look it.

810
00:43:06,540 --> 00:43:11,250
The animal books, the Pigeon, Pelican
and Goose, are part of what's called

811
00:43:11,250 --> 00:43:13,530
an animal series for reaction press.

812
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,940
So you look at the animal from their
biology, but also how they feature

813
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,460
in history, in art, in literature.

814
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,040
So find all that fascinating.

815
00:43:24,170 --> 00:43:28,400
As we talked about Greek myths earlier,
you know how dogs portrayed or how cats

816
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:33,080
portray, you know, the pelican is a
symbol of Christ because there's this

817
00:43:33,110 --> 00:43:37,910
myth that in during hard times, the
pelican would pluck its breast feed.

818
00:43:37,910 --> 00:43:39,650
Its young on its blood.

819
00:43:40,419 --> 00:43:40,640
Die.

820
00:43:40,645 --> 00:43:42,355
Die and then resurrect in three days.

821
00:43:42,384 --> 00:43:46,855
So there's all these interesting
myths and legends that are attached

822
00:43:46,855 --> 00:43:48,924
to, you know, an ordinary creature.

823
00:43:48,924 --> 00:43:50,845
But I always say there's
no ordinary creature.

824
00:43:50,875 --> 00:43:55,015
I mean, a cockroach has 13 chamber
hearts, you know, 13 hearts.

825
00:43:55,075 --> 00:43:55,345
I mean

826
00:43:55,495 --> 00:43:56,185
Wow.

827
00:43:56,754 --> 00:43:59,665
And I always say, if people get
bored, just choose any animal.

828
00:43:59,665 --> 00:44:00,520
Doesn't matter what animal.

829
00:44:00,580 --> 00:44:02,785
Go and research and you'll
find something interesting.

830
00:44:02,964 --> 00:44:03,294
So.

831
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:06,540
I, I don't have a favorite.

832
00:44:06,540 --> 00:44:11,400
I think if, if I had to say you can
only have one animal, what would it be?

833
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:12,780
I suppose it would be a cat.

834
00:44:13,500 --> 00:44:14,310
That's interesting.

835
00:44:14,310 --> 00:44:17,070
Maybe tell me why, why did
you choose a cat, Barbara?

836
00:44:17,730 --> 00:44:21,195
Well, I think probably at my age, I
think in 20 years time I might not

837
00:44:21,195 --> 00:44:24,390
be, you know, I might trip over a
dog and not be able to walk a dog.

838
00:44:24,450 --> 00:44:24,930
I dunno.

839
00:44:25,430 --> 00:44:26,629
But I've always had dogs and cats.

840
00:44:26,629 --> 00:44:27,259
I don't know.

841
00:44:27,410 --> 00:44:30,560
You know, it's just if, if
I had to choose one, I don't

842
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,509
have a favorite animal per se.

843
00:44:32,509 --> 00:44:33,589
I love every animal.

844
00:44:33,589 --> 00:44:36,259
I think they've all got
something to contribute.

845
00:44:36,350 --> 00:44:37,220
They're all different.

846
00:44:37,549 --> 00:44:40,730
They've all got different aspects
than if we just take the time to

847
00:44:40,730 --> 00:44:44,810
learn a fact or two about a, a
particular animal, we'll be surprised,

848
00:44:44,990 --> 00:44:46,730
you know, we would never be bored.

849
00:44:46,819 --> 00:44:50,180
So I, I think that's what, and that's,
you know, one of the reasons want to

850
00:44:50,180 --> 00:44:53,540
try and halt extinction because, you
know, once they're gone, they're gone.

851
00:44:53,540 --> 00:44:53,870
And, yeah.

852
00:44:55,545 --> 00:44:58,185
A poorer planet, and the
same with our own animals.

853
00:44:58,185 --> 00:45:01,425
You know, we wanna hold onto them, make
sure they're as healthy as they possibly

854
00:45:01,425 --> 00:45:03,165
can because we love them so much.

855
00:45:03,375 --> 00:45:09,555
I love the fact that in your book
you actually talk about how Egyptians

856
00:45:09,555 --> 00:45:11,445
used to grieve cats as well.

857
00:45:11,445 --> 00:45:11,446
Mm-hmm.

858
00:45:11,570 --> 00:45:12,710
Can you share a little bit about that?

859
00:45:13,390 --> 00:45:18,549
Yes, they used to shave their eyebrows
and to me it was, I mean, it was a way to

860
00:45:18,700 --> 00:45:22,270
show people that they were grieving and
in our society, how do we do that now?

861
00:45:22,330 --> 00:45:27,520
You know, we don't all dress in black like
we used to and again, how do we do that?

862
00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:32,259
But in a sense it was also perhaps
a way, and I dunno for sure, but

863
00:45:32,259 --> 00:45:36,190
I was, I did read that it was also
a way to say, this is a period

864
00:45:36,190 --> 00:45:38,170
of mourning until your eyebrows.

865
00:45:39,089 --> 00:45:40,140
You know, you're in mourning.

866
00:45:40,709 --> 00:45:44,640
So you know, as we know, many cultures
and religions have set periods

867
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:46,410
for mourning or intense mourning.

868
00:45:47,250 --> 00:45:49,439
But again, how do we do that as society?

869
00:45:49,439 --> 00:45:50,220
How do people know?

870
00:45:50,609 --> 00:45:54,359
I mean, for myself going through
widowhood, I think there are

871
00:45:54,359 --> 00:45:56,759
all these other broken hearts
around, but how do we know?

872
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:02,160
And the same, whether it's from our
animal family or from our human family.

873
00:46:02,370 --> 00:46:05,310
People are nursing broken
hearts and we dunno.

874
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,540
We go through life, we put on a, you
know, a smile on the dial and just

875
00:46:09,810 --> 00:46:12,120
go through and things trigger it.

876
00:46:12,180 --> 00:46:15,600
You know, like music triggers
things or for pet owners going

877
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,280
into a supermarket, you think?

878
00:46:17,430 --> 00:46:19,830
I'm not going down the pet
aisle, that'll be fine.

879
00:46:20,130 --> 00:46:20,850
But there they are.

880
00:46:21,060 --> 00:46:23,910
It might be, you know, a display
on, on the corner, you know, 'cause

881
00:46:23,910 --> 00:46:26,310
that that brand is on on special.

882
00:46:26,670 --> 00:46:30,390
So how do we help those people when
they burst into tears or, yeah.

883
00:46:31,170 --> 00:46:31,890
It's all of that.

884
00:46:32,130 --> 00:46:32,490
Yeah.

885
00:46:33,450 --> 00:46:36,870
If we all wore black and not being
Melbourne, but you know, in terms

886
00:46:36,870 --> 00:46:39,660
of morning colors, you know, maybe
that would've been a way, but

887
00:46:39,660 --> 00:46:41,100
we don't anymore, so we dunno.

888
00:46:42,330 --> 00:46:46,920
That is so true because when
I am at a function and people,

889
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:48,830
I. Ask me what do I do?

890
00:46:48,830 --> 00:46:52,880
And I talk about the work that
I do and the podcast, et cetera,

891
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,370
and, and everyone has a story.

892
00:46:55,430 --> 00:46:59,780
That's how the podcast came about
is because everyone I spoke to

893
00:46:59,780 --> 00:47:04,430
had a story about someone who had
died and what the impact that was.

894
00:47:04,430 --> 00:47:10,040
And, and that could be anyone from
a friend to a, a loved one to a pet.

895
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,200
Everyone had a story to share.

896
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:14,420
And so sometimes.

897
00:47:14,625 --> 00:47:19,545
It would be nice to actually know whether
there was an Armand or something that

898
00:47:19,545 --> 00:47:24,045
identified us all as part of some sort
of club, but at the same time, I think

899
00:47:24,045 --> 00:47:30,645
you said it before, is that even when
we are born, we actually start grieving

900
00:47:30,645 --> 00:47:35,895
from that process because there is
always an end point that we will always

901
00:47:35,895 --> 00:47:41,625
get to at some point, and that each
grief and each loss adds to that mosaic

902
00:47:41,625 --> 00:47:43,305
that you're referring to of our heart.

903
00:47:43,305 --> 00:47:43,395
Hmm.

904
00:47:44,655 --> 00:47:45,705
And change.

905
00:47:45,765 --> 00:47:48,165
I mean, grief is change.

906
00:47:48,195 --> 00:47:52,755
And you know, as humans we don't always
like change, but that's part of it.

907
00:47:52,755 --> 00:47:57,315
And, and not to be surprised by it,
but there's that saying, I think it's

908
00:47:57,315 --> 00:48:00,435
a Buddhist saying that, you know, that,
that you've got a, a bird on your shoulder

909
00:48:00,585 --> 00:48:02,775
and one day it'll say, today is the day.

910
00:48:02,925 --> 00:48:04,605
You know, are we prepared for that?

911
00:48:04,605 --> 00:48:04,815
Are.

912
00:48:07,924 --> 00:48:11,855
Prepare us in some way because
it's that sense of our time

913
00:48:11,855 --> 00:48:13,295
will run out one day too.

914
00:48:13,445 --> 00:48:15,785
And I mean, I like to think
that we will see them again.

915
00:48:15,785 --> 00:48:16,924
That's my belief.

916
00:48:16,985 --> 00:48:19,715
Uh, I'll have a whole lot
there at the Pearly gates.

917
00:48:20,075 --> 00:48:24,005
I saw a beautiful cartoon that they
had St. Peter at, at the gates, and

918
00:48:24,005 --> 00:48:28,415
there's a cat and he's saying, are
you going in or are you going out?

919
00:48:30,645 --> 00:48:33,165
I can tell you 'cause you're
a cat lover, you'll get that.

920
00:48:33,525 --> 00:48:36,615
So I love to think that, you
know, my cats might still be there

921
00:48:36,615 --> 00:48:40,395
thinking, will I go in, will I go
out, will I go in, will I go out?

922
00:48:40,665 --> 00:48:43,545
And it was a, you know, just a
cat door size, you know, gate,

923
00:48:43,545 --> 00:48:44,535
which I thought was beautiful.

924
00:48:44,535 --> 00:48:44,625
And

925
00:48:44,625 --> 00:48:50,595
anyone who is listening who has a cat,
will totally appreciate that indecision at

926
00:48:50,595 --> 00:48:52,335
that particular point in time from a cat.

927
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,070
Exactly, and who's going to
be their master now, you know?

928
00:48:56,160 --> 00:49:02,070
So, but it's, so I, no, that, that
to me is that sense of the afterlife

929
00:49:02,070 --> 00:49:05,730
for me is that, you know, I like to
think I'll see them again, and that,

930
00:49:05,730 --> 00:49:08,310
that essence lives on in some way.

931
00:49:08,340 --> 00:49:11,700
And, but again, it's that
sense of, as you said, stories.

932
00:49:11,700 --> 00:49:13,590
Everyone has a story, everyone.

933
00:49:14,100 --> 00:49:16,050
You can't go through life without grief.

934
00:49:16,365 --> 00:49:17,355
And without loss.

935
00:49:17,355 --> 00:49:21,315
And it might be something permanent, but
it might also be something with change.

936
00:49:21,345 --> 00:49:24,675
And that's also a grief for
people with assistance dogs.

937
00:49:24,735 --> 00:49:27,555
And you know, that's another grief.

938
00:49:27,705 --> 00:49:30,735
Or people who are having to give up
their animals to go into aged care.

939
00:49:30,735 --> 00:49:31,755
That's another grief.

940
00:49:31,755 --> 00:49:36,105
So there might be different griefs that
we might not go through with human loss.

941
00:49:36,650 --> 00:49:38,300
But there's so many facets.

942
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,410
Yeah, and something that I thought was
obviously quite informed from the work

943
00:49:42,410 --> 00:49:48,350
that you do with Story Dogs, but also that
ripple effect of when an animal does die,

944
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:54,680
just those incidental people who may be
aware of your pet and their involvement.

945
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,220
Like you were talking about the people
that you at the dog park that know

946
00:49:58,220 --> 00:50:02,270
you and know may know the dog's name,
but it's that, that ripple effect

947
00:50:02,270 --> 00:50:05,330
of when a pet dies, who may be.

948
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:08,100
By that death as well.

949
00:50:08,970 --> 00:50:12,270
Exactly, and you know, it'll be the
students, it'll be the volunteers,

950
00:50:12,270 --> 00:50:16,049
it'll be staff, it'll be, you know,
people involved in, you know, with

951
00:50:16,049 --> 00:50:18,060
an assistance dog or a deaf dog.

952
00:50:18,750 --> 00:50:23,069
But it's also, you know, we see people,
but we also not always aware how

953
00:50:23,069 --> 00:50:25,109
their animal has helped them in life.

954
00:50:25,379 --> 00:50:29,729
So perhaps that dog or that cat has
been their reason for getting outta bed,

955
00:50:30,060 --> 00:50:32,549
having a routine, having to be well.

956
00:50:34,250 --> 00:50:38,150
Well enough to go and do the shopping,
you know, to provide food for the animals.

957
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,870
It might be what gets them
out when their partners died.

958
00:50:41,900 --> 00:50:44,360
Yes, I've got this routine,
I've gotta walk the dog.

959
00:50:44,900 --> 00:50:50,000
So we don't really know how dependent
some people are on their animals to

960
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,220
give them a reason to live as well.

961
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:56,810
I mean, there are some people who say they
know they're because of their animals and.

962
00:51:00,385 --> 00:51:04,315
I think we need to honor our animals and
to give them the credit where credits due.

963
00:51:06,195 --> 00:51:11,145
We don't always know how deep a rift,
you know, it can be when an animal

964
00:51:11,145 --> 00:51:14,715
has died and you know, as you said,
the ripple effect is one thing.

965
00:51:15,195 --> 00:51:18,735
But I think sometimes the ones
we never see, you think, well,

966
00:51:19,035 --> 00:51:22,065
you know, how are they coping
without a reason to get out of bed?

967
00:51:22,305 --> 00:51:23,085
That's very true.

968
00:51:24,075 --> 00:51:29,685
And what's your hope that people,
your readers from the book, broken

969
00:51:29,685 --> 00:51:33,465
Heart, shared Heart, healing
Heart, what do you hope their

970
00:51:33,465 --> 00:51:35,295
takeaway is from reading the book?

971
00:51:36,090 --> 00:51:39,600
I hope, first of all, that they
realize their grief is normal, that

972
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:41,070
they're not being over sentimental.

973
00:51:41,070 --> 00:51:43,380
And that's one of the things
people would say to me, I think

974
00:51:43,380 --> 00:51:46,710
I'm being over sentimental, or
I shouldn't be crying like this.

975
00:51:47,070 --> 00:51:48,330
No, that's perfectly normal.

976
00:51:48,390 --> 00:51:53,400
So for them to realize the grief
they are experiencing is normal, if

977
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,690
they have problems telling people,
especially if they perhaps are not

978
00:51:57,690 --> 00:51:59,550
sleeping, not eating, need to go.

979
00:52:00,830 --> 00:52:03,950
Sometimes people are reluctant to
seek help because they, they're

980
00:52:03,950 --> 00:52:05,450
afraid of people's reactions.

981
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,290
And I would say to people, just tell
your doctor, someone in the family has

982
00:52:09,290 --> 00:52:11,810
died, they don't need to, has four.

983
00:52:12,660 --> 00:52:15,150
So if they're worried,
what, how people will react.

984
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,569
You're not telling a lie, you're
just not giving all the information.

985
00:52:18,569 --> 00:52:20,190
You're just saying a
family member has died.

986
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,819
So for them to realize if they
need help, as some people do,

987
00:52:24,390 --> 00:52:25,620
it's okay to ask for help.

988
00:52:26,250 --> 00:52:28,740
But thirdly, I think for them
to realize that the gift that.

989
00:52:29,345 --> 00:52:33,995
Are, you know, just in that little
package that they're just so wonderful

990
00:52:33,995 --> 00:52:38,345
and let's appreciate them and let us
be better human beings because of them.

991
00:52:38,465 --> 00:52:42,485
And then we've lived up to being the
person, our dog or our cat thinks we are.

992
00:52:42,485 --> 00:52:45,215
And that's a, that's, you know,
we're on the pedestal there.

993
00:52:45,245 --> 00:52:47,795
And to be like that with other
people, you know, if we can be

994
00:52:47,795 --> 00:52:51,875
someone's cheerleader, if we can be
there to always have an encouraging

995
00:52:51,875 --> 00:52:53,645
word, that would be brilliant too.

996
00:52:54,125 --> 00:52:54,905
But to say grief.

997
00:52:54,905 --> 00:52:55,745
Grief is grief.

998
00:52:55,745 --> 00:52:56,855
There's no end date.

999
00:52:57,180 --> 00:53:01,470
And we grieve because we love and
our, our hearts are broken, but

1000
00:53:01,470 --> 00:53:03,000
they're full of beautiful memories.

1001
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:04,980
We change forever as a result of that.

1002
00:53:05,730 --> 00:53:06,600
That's so beautiful.

1003
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:11,100
I will actually have an image of a
mosaic heart when I think of this

1004
00:53:11,100 --> 00:53:12,690
interview and, and your words.

1005
00:53:12,690 --> 00:53:17,759
Barbara, thank you so much for being
with us today and for sharing your

1006
00:53:17,759 --> 00:53:22,830
insights into a topic that's not really
discussed very often and very publicly.

1007
00:53:22,830 --> 00:53:24,000
So thank you so much.

1008
00:53:24,569 --> 00:53:24,839
Thank you.

1009
00:53:28,050 --> 00:53:31,500
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1010
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:33,540
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1011
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