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Michelle: People who feel lonely
already think they are a burden.

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They think they're a shame.

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They are embarrassed.

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They actually conceal it.

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We know that at least one in two
Australians who say that they feel

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lonely, they actively conceal it.

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So sometimes it's around navigating
how to have that conversations in

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a way that isn't threatening, that
lets them open up and feel empowered.

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And not treat the person who feels lonely
as if they don't have any Any skills

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and qualities because I think often
when people have these conversations

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while they're trying to help in the most
well intentioned ways They sometimes

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can come across as disrespectful to
the person who does feel lonely So I

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think we need to be very careful about
learning how to talk about it being

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respectful not Assume that just because
what works for you is going to work for

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them because loneliness is subjective.

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And I often really just start
with the most basic question

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of what can I do to help?

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Catherine: Welcome to Don't Be
Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging

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open conversations about dying
and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death back to life.

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Because while you may not be ready
to die, At least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin nations

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and recognizes their connection
to land, sea, and community.

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We pay our respects to their elders,
past, present, and emerging, and

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extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Associate Professor Michelle Lim
is the inaugural CEO and Scientific

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Chair of Ending Loneliness Together.

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She is a practicing clinical psychologist
and is considered the leading Australian

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scientific expert in loneliness.

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Michelle: Thanks for
being with us, Michelle.

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Thanks for having me, Catherine.

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Catherine: Now, can you explain
a little bit about the concept of

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loneliness as it's defined by your
organization, not organization, and

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how it differs from social isolation?

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Michelle: It's a fantastic
place to start, Catherine.

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I think for your listeners, sometimes
loneliness and social isolation

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are often used interchangeably, but
actually there are different concepts.

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So loneliness is about
having this subjective.

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uh, feeling of distress that comes up
when you feel your social relationships

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do not meet your current social needs.

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So this is much more around quality
of your relationships and having those

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meaningful social connections, as opposed
to social isolation, which is really

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about the quantity of contact that you
might have with someone or the quantity

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of friends or, or Options that you have.

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Something's a little bit more
obvious, so it's much more

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something that you can count.

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And, uh, we know now that loneliness
and social isolation, uh, can

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coexist, but they can also, um,
occur independent of each other.

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So

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Catherine: loneliness
can be perhaps hidden.

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Issue in someone's life

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Michelle: that that is correct.

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I think that the issue that we're having
right now is that Uh people think that one

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cannot be lonely because they are around
other people And what we're really trying

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to do is that uh, we we need to kind of
rectify and correct that misconception

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that you know People and people around
you doesn't make it You feel less lonely.

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And sometimes some people might
argue that you may make you feel more

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lonely because if you don't get along
with those people, you don't have

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those meaningful social connections.

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So you can still feel lonely in a mass, a
huge crowd in the family, working in a big

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organization, having lots of interactions
with people, but still feel that you don't

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have anyone to understand you, or perhaps
you're not really finding your tribe.

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You don't feel like you belong.

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Catherine: I think to be perfectly
honest, probably everyone has

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Michelle: felt like that at
some stage in their life.

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Absolutely.

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I, I often say, if you have a
heartbeat, you know, you would

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feel lonely at some point.

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And some of us just manage our
loneliness much better than others.

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And I would dare say that, you know,
we should all feel lonely at some

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point, because it's really what we
call, uh, an innate system and our

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checks are just a natural check you.

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To reach out to others, to make
sure that we connect with others

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around us in a more meaningful way.

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So loneliness itself serves a function for
us to kind of revise our relationships.

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Catherine: And is that a
primitive sort of need that

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Michelle: we have?

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Absolutely.

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And, and to be with others and to,
have those connections has always been

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really, uh, almost a recipe for, for, for
the fact that we've, we've thrived and

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flourished as a species, you know, and
for some reason or another in the last

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century, we, we have this strange society,
societal or cultural misconception

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that, you know, loneliness itself is
a bad thing, but we know now that it's

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actually just a part and parcel of our.

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Checks and balances within our system.

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Not that's dissimilar to feeling
hungry or thirsty or feeling

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fatigued that we need rest.

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Feeling lonely is just a
signal for us to do something

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different about relationships.

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Catherine: And what do we know about
loneliness and how it impacts individuals

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who have actually, you know, dealing
with a loved one who's recently died or.

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or have surpassed it at some point.

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Michelle: Yeah, we do, unfortunately, know
quite a bit around intimate relationships

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that, you know, may have experienced
the loss of an intimate partner, and

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this is especially so in older adults.

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There's a lot of research in that area.

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And there's actually something what
we call intimate loneliness as well.

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Um, and, and this is really around, you
know, very, very close relationships

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where you lose someone or you, you,
you know, it might not lose someone to

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death, but sometimes it could be a, you
know, divorce or separation or change.

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Um, when you lose that person,
it's incredibly difficult for, for

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one to rebuild that relationship.

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that sense of connection again.

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And that's not to say it's not
impossible, but it's, uh, it's a feeling

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that a lot of people often complain
about being highly distressed about.

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Catherine: And how do we
actually deal with this as

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Michelle: a community?

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Like what can we do?

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That's a really good question, Catherine.

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And there's no really one size fits
all solution because there are people

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who really need time to grieve.

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You know, as you would know,
you know, we all kind of.

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Go through a process of grief in different
ways and in different timelines, you know,

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psychologists have this Miraculous two
year mark where we say, you know after

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two years of bereavement, you should
be fine But really there are people

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who never really get You know, over
you want to put it in that horrible to

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get over, which is a silly time to use
this loss of the intimate relationship.

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You know, that's so
meaningful to a lot of people.

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And, you know, a classic example of,
you know, people who have been widowed.

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And after 50 years to you could never
replace the person that you lose and it's

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about managing day to day of how you can
actually cope with life after that person

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has passed and those kind of sometimes
decisions and choices that you have to

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make and hard ones to make to go on.

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And people do struggle to find those
meanings of having to go on post their

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intimate past partner passing away.

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It's a conversation that a lot of
people do struggle with and not

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an easy one to resolve right away.

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It's something that really
does take a lot of time.

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Catherine: And what would you tell the
members that perhaps may see someone like

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a parent, um, or a sibling that, that they
recognize that they seem to be struggling?

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Michelle: Yeah.

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Well, uh, you know, Catherine, this is a
really, uh, good, good question to ask.

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I, I would really say to, for them
to actually not, To acknowledge the

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loneliness that their parent feels,
because often people would say to the

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parent who's lost the intimate partner,
You, you'll be fine, you have us, you

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have us the kids, you have the family,
you have the grandkids, you'll be okay.

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But actually what we hear from people
with lived experience of this is that,

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hang on a second, No, I'm not okay, and
stop denying me for feeling lonely, I

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know you're trying to help, but it's
really unhelpful when you say, You know,

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I've got family around me and therefore
I can't be allowed to feel lonely.

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We got to remember that the loss
of an intimate, um, person that

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we, we, we hold very dear is very
different to the relationship

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of that of a child and a parent.

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You know, you could never replace.

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That person.

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And so it's really around, you know,
finding ways of giving them company.

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You'll never entirely replace that,
but giving them meaningful company

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and companionship so that they feel
belong still in that wider group.

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And they should be allowed to
feel lonely, but also to use that

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to empower them as opposed to
say, you shouldn't feel this way.

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I shouldn't feel that that way
because you've got people around you.

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That's incredibly helpful to the,
to the parent whom I have lost.

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a husband or a wife.

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Yeah.

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Catherine: So it sounds
like we shouldn't invalidate

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Michelle: what they're feeling.

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Absolutely.

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And, and if you, if you, if you just
take a moment to reflect how you relate

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to your intimate partner, to a very
close friend, to a child, to a parent.

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You can see very clearly those
relationships are very different

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in quality and the way we relate
to them is very different.

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The kinds of things we would tell each
of those people would be very different

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or confide in were very different.

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So when we lose that intimate loved one.

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Um, it's incredibly hard to replace
that and it's, you know, sure

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people can repartner, but often
people are not looking to repartner.

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You know, often people are looking just to
cope, but then, you know, there have been

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success stories in that sense that people
have been young enough when they've lost a

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spouse that have repartnered and, and, and
have, you know, they might feel a gap so

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called, but it's still not quite the same.

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Again, that unique.

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The relationship that you have
with that person, that is loss, you

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know, when someone passes and we
should never dismiss that feeling.

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Catherine: And what strategies or
interventions have proven effective

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in alleviating loneliness when people
are looking at either end of life

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or You know, life limiting illness.

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Michelle: Yeah.

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So if I kind of go back to the research,
it's really not as much done in this

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area, which I think it's a bit of a shame,
but it's a huge gap in what we know.

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What we do know with people who are
facing the, uh, their end of life

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is that there are times where they
would prefer to recontact people to,

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to rebuild that relationship at that
meaningful relationship, but there

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are others who just do not want that.

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And that is really, again, to
be respectful of that decision.

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of, of not having to, uh, rebuild
a relationship in probably

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what we would call the most
difficult time of their lives.

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So it's really up to the individual
of whether they would like to repair

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or rebuild or recontact, or just
simply touch base with existing people

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to, to talk about how they feel.

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And just having as well, kind of been
through palliative care with my fam,

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my family, for example, I do know
it's an incredibly difficult period

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with relationships, often people
who are also facing the end of life.

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There are people who kind of almost
go into complete withdrawal mode, uh,

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which is, I just need to concentrate
on moving to the next phase.

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And I really don't need that noise.

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So there are people who are like that.

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And I think that's, again, something that
we need to respect and something that.

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Uh, it's absolutely off.

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That should be their say, and they
should have control over that.

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Catherine: So tell me, Michelle, what does
the research tell us about loneliness and

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what are the impacts of that, you know,
on the long term health of individuals?

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Michelle: Well, what, what we do know
now is that loneliness is something

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that should not be trivialized.

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It is, uh, an issue that even though
we all feel lonely at some point in

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our lives, if we neglect it, if we do
not address it, if we keep sweeping

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it under the carpet and, and, and
keep going on, it can become worse.

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And when it becomes worse,
that's when it becomes.

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physiologically and mentally stressful.

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So, what we really need to do now
is to reposition the issue and to

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say that loneliness is something
that we can tackle really early.

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If we don't tackle it, we do know
that we are more likely to experience

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other kind of health problems.

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Not just mental health problems.

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Most people think that loneliness
is a mental health issue.

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It's not.

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Loneliness also has a kind
of much more physical impact.

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uh, on people.

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We do know that loneliness, for
example, kind of leads to poorer

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heart health four years down the line.

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Now, we don't know exactly how
it leads to poorer heart health.

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We know that the theory is supposed to
be that if you're lonely, you're less

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likely to exercise better or eat better.

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You just don't, you're just less
incentivized to be helped, you know, to

226
00:14:02,930 --> 00:14:07,850
do these kind of healthy, you know, How
healthy kind of behaviors, because you

227
00:14:07,850 --> 00:14:09,430
don't really have anyone to answer to.

228
00:14:09,470 --> 00:14:14,860
So having a social connection, someone
even to nag at you, Catherine, to go

229
00:14:14,900 --> 00:14:18,060
see the doctor, you, you know, you
complain that your heart is, is, is

230
00:14:18,060 --> 00:14:20,350
not, you know, feeling really strange.

231
00:14:20,350 --> 00:14:25,190
You really need to go see your doctor now,
even just having that meaningful other to

232
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,490
nag at us can sometimes keep us healthier.

233
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:29,290
That's the kind of the.

234
00:14:29,685 --> 00:14:32,314
The running joke I have with
my, my partners, I'm keeping him

235
00:14:32,314 --> 00:14:35,035
alive because you're nagging.

236
00:14:35,035 --> 00:14:37,444
Yeah.

237
00:14:37,444 --> 00:14:38,594
You got to go see the doctor.

238
00:14:38,594 --> 00:14:42,814
You know, I'm keeping many, he's taking,
you know, years off my life, but I'm

239
00:14:42,824 --> 00:14:46,714
adding to his, you know, to just,
but it's something interesting that

240
00:14:47,034 --> 00:14:53,974
Catherine: you're talking about is that,
that habitual everyday routine of having

241
00:14:53,974 --> 00:14:55,974
someone else in the home with you.

242
00:14:56,749 --> 00:15:03,219
So, you know, even in a share home, it's
still someone else coming in and out.

243
00:15:03,380 --> 00:15:04,060
Michelle: It is.

244
00:15:04,060 --> 00:15:06,930
But, but it's also not just
simply having that one person.

245
00:15:07,180 --> 00:15:10,380
We do know, we do know from the kind
of more traditional research is that,

246
00:15:10,739 --> 00:15:14,219
you know, social isolation, which is,
as I mentioned earlier, the quantity

247
00:15:14,219 --> 00:15:18,339
of people around you, that does make
a difference to our health as well and

248
00:15:18,339 --> 00:15:22,439
our, um, our, what we call mortality,
which is how, how early we die.

249
00:15:22,460 --> 00:15:25,259
So, that has important
implications as well.

250
00:15:25,330 --> 00:15:28,460
Well, we do know that people who
live with others are more likely to

251
00:15:28,460 --> 00:15:32,420
survive, for example, more likely
to recover, but it's not just.

252
00:15:33,469 --> 00:15:37,819
The quantity is also how you feel
about the person because I have heard

253
00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:43,430
as well of housemates who You know
just don't know each other very well.

254
00:15:43,470 --> 00:15:46,330
And you know a very classic example.

255
00:15:46,330 --> 00:15:51,660
I have a Colleague that she fell
and hit her head in the bathroom

256
00:15:52,350 --> 00:15:56,400
and she wasn't found 48 hours later
because Unfortunately, she lived in

257
00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,385
a household of eight other housemates
who did not check on her And she

258
00:16:00,395 --> 00:16:01,944
ended up in hospital for the month.

259
00:16:02,374 --> 00:16:06,564
So she lived again, she's a classic case
that you live with people, but if they

260
00:16:06,564 --> 00:16:11,795
don't go in and check on you and they
don't care about you, it makes little

261
00:16:11,795 --> 00:16:17,564
difference to, to, to, to, you know,
how we live and our quality of life.

262
00:16:17,574 --> 00:16:22,009
So it's, you know, you, we need to be
able to know just that someone's with.

263
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:27,990
us or around us, but also if they're,
if we have that meaningful connection to

264
00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:32,130
them, that they, they know that we can
trust to say to them, I don't feel well.

265
00:16:32,180 --> 00:16:35,569
And we can trust, you know,
that they would say, go see the

266
00:16:35,569 --> 00:16:39,799
doctor, you know, that, that
relationship still needs to exist.

267
00:16:40,359 --> 00:16:40,779
Catherine: Yeah.

268
00:16:41,339 --> 00:16:44,979
So it's like a reframing
we need to be aware of.

269
00:16:45,370 --> 00:16:51,350
So it's not just thinking
that it's those people around.

270
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So therefore they.

271
00:16:53,829 --> 00:17:00,319
Won't be lonely, but it's actually
dependent on, I suppose it's a level

272
00:17:00,319 --> 00:17:04,319
of vulnerability that you're able to
share with another person, isn't it?

273
00:17:04,379 --> 00:17:04,589
Yes,

274
00:17:04,589 --> 00:17:07,480
Michelle: our ability to bond with
people, you know, and that need,

275
00:17:07,540 --> 00:17:08,879
that does need vulnerability.

276
00:17:08,879 --> 00:17:11,849
And I think maybe Catherine, you
kind of hit a nail on the head here.

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I think, you know, maybe
we're, we're no longer.

278
00:17:15,974 --> 00:17:20,974
We don't feel like we have the permission
to be vulnerable to other people and to,

279
00:17:21,474 --> 00:17:23,805
to build those strong relationship bonds.

280
00:17:23,805 --> 00:17:27,355
And as a clinical psychologist
of over 20 years now, I can tell

281
00:17:27,355 --> 00:17:32,164
you the number of people who are
afraid to really be their true self.

282
00:17:32,379 --> 00:17:34,190
to be vulnerable with other people.

283
00:17:34,659 --> 00:17:37,850
That's something that people do struggle
with because they really, what they're

284
00:17:37,850 --> 00:17:40,159
really trying to do is to prevent hurt.

285
00:17:40,350 --> 00:17:43,939
They're trying to, to not, you know,
sometimes not reinitiate the trauma that

286
00:17:43,969 --> 00:17:45,540
they might have experienced as a child.

287
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:46,860
They close up.

288
00:17:46,919 --> 00:17:51,535
But the problem with closing up is that
It's very then very difficult to open up

289
00:17:51,995 --> 00:17:53,955
and to build those relationship bonds.

290
00:17:54,425 --> 00:17:58,385
We need to have an ability to
know when to open the gates and

291
00:17:58,385 --> 00:18:01,325
when to close the gates or how to
kind of do that in a healthy way.

292
00:18:01,845 --> 00:18:06,155
And people do struggle that they,
um, when they feel lonely, often

293
00:18:06,325 --> 00:18:10,035
people just shut out, they shut down
and they just don't open up and they

294
00:18:10,035 --> 00:18:11,515
don't know how to navigate that.

295
00:18:13,475 --> 00:18:13,585
So

296
00:18:13,585 --> 00:18:13,905
Catherine: how

297
00:18:13,995 --> 00:18:14,625
Michelle: do we

298
00:18:14,705 --> 00:18:15,245
Catherine: navigate

299
00:18:15,245 --> 00:18:15,535
Michelle: it better?

300
00:18:16,135 --> 00:18:20,695
Look, I really think that this is a lot
of this is awareness and education, but

301
00:18:20,695 --> 00:18:26,009
also Making sure that you take those
steps that you feel like you can do it

302
00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:29,769
I often kind of say to people that they
often put these really high standards

303
00:18:29,769 --> 00:18:33,759
on themselves and they say things like
You know for me to be less lonely.

304
00:18:33,799 --> 00:18:37,610
I need to have a new best friend I need
to have five new best friends, but they

305
00:18:37,610 --> 00:18:44,379
don't realize how difficult it is to have
best friends as you get older And my my

306
00:18:44,409 --> 00:18:49,240
my goal is more if you spoke to one more
person that day and said, hi, even if

307
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:54,749
it's a superficial level, that's enough,
you know, and, and so getting them to

308
00:18:54,750 --> 00:19:00,289
kind of start from more basics, start
from things that can be done, not things

309
00:19:00,290 --> 00:19:05,220
that they, they assume they have to do
it, like to get to know more people or

310
00:19:05,510 --> 00:19:07,390
to be surrounded all the time by people.

311
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,450
Those things are not as
important as having that.

312
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:15,020
Kind of, you know, high quality,
meaningful relationships, and to start

313
00:19:15,020 --> 00:19:20,019
from thinking about what they can
do first and then just build that in

314
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:29,249
Catherine: a society where we are
always looking at that, that projection

315
00:19:29,409 --> 00:19:34,989
and I'm thinking about technology
and how we document our lives on

316
00:19:35,409 --> 00:19:38,050
Instagram and those sorts of things.

317
00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:40,000
How is that?

318
00:19:40,894 --> 00:19:43,174
Sort of exacerbating the
problem of loneliness.

319
00:19:43,175 --> 00:19:44,404
Is

320
00:19:45,084 --> 00:19:45,104
Michelle: it?

321
00:19:45,114 --> 00:19:45,514
Yeah.

322
00:19:45,554 --> 00:19:46,635
Well, that's a good question.

323
00:19:46,635 --> 00:19:52,014
I think it's quite easy to to talk about
social media and technology in a negative

324
00:19:52,014 --> 00:19:56,814
way and we all know here, you know, right
from the start that it's this is not this

325
00:19:56,814 --> 00:20:02,434
is this this modality and using tech is
it's not gonna go away, you know, we know

326
00:20:02,434 --> 00:20:07,030
now that this is here to stay and this
is You know, this has been, you know, a

327
00:20:07,030 --> 00:20:12,080
good 20 years since we've had social media
and interacting with each other that way.

328
00:20:12,140 --> 00:20:15,570
And in many ways, it's really good
because we can connect with people

329
00:20:15,570 --> 00:20:16,799
from the other side of the world.

330
00:20:17,390 --> 00:20:22,600
But what it has done, I think, is it's
kind of changed the way we interact with

331
00:20:22,609 --> 00:20:27,500
people, and it changed the way we, um,
Uh, start or maintain relationships.

332
00:20:27,989 --> 00:20:32,469
Now it's not really necessarily about the
tool itself is really around how we use

333
00:20:32,469 --> 00:20:34,600
it and how we use it to our advantage.

334
00:20:35,009 --> 00:20:37,999
Cause we have done things like,
you know, focus groups of older

335
00:20:37,999 --> 00:20:41,309
people who talk about technology
in a very more positive way.

336
00:20:41,709 --> 00:20:44,989
You know, what they're really doing
is they're connecting with friends

337
00:20:44,989 --> 00:20:47,209
and family that don't live near them.

338
00:20:47,709 --> 00:20:50,649
They actually do feel less lonely
and think about the pandemic,

339
00:20:50,889 --> 00:20:53,180
how much we were able to.

340
00:20:53,945 --> 00:20:58,205
Remain connected to loved ones who we
might be physically separated from so

341
00:20:58,205 --> 00:21:03,365
this is all technologies can be used for
good and then We need to think about not

342
00:21:03,365 --> 00:21:07,504
using it entirely to replace our face
to face interactions because we do get

343
00:21:07,545 --> 00:21:13,095
a different quality of interactions when
we actually talk to someone face to face

344
00:21:13,095 --> 00:21:19,845
or when we see them in person and The
nature of those interactions are highly

345
00:21:19,845 --> 00:21:26,165
valued, and I think we've started to
become a little bit too relaxed over that.

346
00:21:26,544 --> 00:21:31,215
We always almost favor, say, online
meetings over face to face meetings, and

347
00:21:31,215 --> 00:21:37,195
whilst I know it does save time, I still
see the value of often seeing a person in

348
00:21:37,195 --> 00:21:42,090
3D, as I call it, And you get a different
quality from, you are able to read

349
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:47,000
them better, especially having more eye
contact because we're not really having

350
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:52,369
appropriate eye contact when we use these
online, uh, forms of, of interacting,

351
00:21:52,370 --> 00:21:56,449
you know, we're not really looking at
each other in the eye and we know body

352
00:21:56,450 --> 00:22:00,530
language is, is very important and we
don't necessarily catch that online.

353
00:22:01,010 --> 00:22:06,605
So meeting people face to face is, It's
equally important that we, we should

354
00:22:06,605 --> 00:22:08,265
still place a lot of value over that.

355
00:22:10,755 --> 00:22:10,985
And

356
00:22:10,995 --> 00:22:16,045
Catherine: in relation to healthcare
professionals, what do they need to be

357
00:22:16,045 --> 00:22:22,474
mindful of when it comes to working in
aged care, um, dealing with patients with

358
00:22:22,914 --> 00:22:27,845
a, you know, terminal illness or life
limiting illness, uh, or, or the bereaved?

359
00:22:28,225 --> 00:22:29,965
What's the sort of things
that they need to be

360
00:22:29,975 --> 00:22:30,735
Michelle: mindful of?

361
00:22:30,835 --> 00:22:35,480
No, and that isn't speaking on the
healthcare professional or on the behalf

362
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,680
of healthcare professionals, we're not
really trained necessarily to always

363
00:22:39,730 --> 00:22:45,290
understand what loneliness looks like,
uh, how it presents, how we can spot it.

364
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,039
We're not trained in our training.

365
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:52,660
There's no course, uh, that we undergo to
actually learn how to identify loneliness.

366
00:22:53,170 --> 00:22:56,640
We need to, we need to actually
start implementing in our

367
00:22:56,670 --> 00:22:58,030
kind of training programs.

368
00:22:58,420 --> 00:23:03,475
But I think that We need to be able to
have these respectful conversations.

369
00:23:03,965 --> 00:23:07,334
People who feel lonely already
think they are burdened.

370
00:23:07,425 --> 00:23:09,235
They think they, they're ashamed.

371
00:23:09,465 --> 00:23:10,764
They, they're embarrassed.

372
00:23:10,774 --> 00:23:12,705
They actually conceal it.

373
00:23:12,725 --> 00:23:15,814
We know that at least one in two
Australians who say that they feel

374
00:23:15,824 --> 00:23:18,334
lonely, they actively conceal it.

375
00:23:18,774 --> 00:23:23,085
So sometimes it's around navigating
how to have that conversations in

376
00:23:23,085 --> 00:23:27,814
a way that isn't threatening, that
lets them open up and feel empowered.

377
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:35,430
Not treat the person who feels lonely
as if they don't have any Any skills

378
00:23:35,430 --> 00:23:39,830
and qualities because I think often
when people have these Conversations

379
00:23:39,830 --> 00:23:43,610
while they're trying to help in a
meaningful way or they're trying to

380
00:23:43,610 --> 00:23:45,399
help in the most well intentioned way.

381
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,290
Sorry They sometimes can come across
as kind of disrespectful to the person

382
00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:52,949
who does feel lonely So I think we
need to be very careful about learning

383
00:23:52,989 --> 00:23:59,430
how to talk about it being respectful,
not assume that just because what

384
00:23:59,430 --> 00:24:02,899
works for you is going to work for
them because loneliness is subjective.

385
00:24:03,310 --> 00:24:06,090
And I often really just start
with the most basic question

386
00:24:06,090 --> 00:24:07,710
of what can I do to help?

387
00:24:08,479 --> 00:24:14,270
You know, if we can start with that basic
question, open it up, get to understand

388
00:24:14,270 --> 00:24:18,960
what, what, what takes for that person,
you know, what's going to work for them

389
00:24:19,050 --> 00:24:20,629
isn't necessarily going to work for you.

390
00:24:20,659 --> 00:24:24,460
So don't assume, Hey, if you
join a group that you'll be fine.

391
00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:27,259
You don't, why don't you just
go outside and you know, they're

392
00:24:27,259 --> 00:24:30,290
running a group and you know, this
music club, you should just do that.

393
00:24:30,830 --> 00:24:34,580
You know, maybe it might work
for you, but if that person's

394
00:24:34,580 --> 00:24:38,440
reluctant, perhaps there's a lot
more going for them than we imagined.

395
00:24:38,879 --> 00:24:40,060
So what is it that.

396
00:24:40,275 --> 00:24:42,705
What else do they, what kind
of support do they need?

397
00:24:43,155 --> 00:24:48,524
So really just hold back and ask
those open ended questions and never,

398
00:24:48,555 --> 00:24:52,064
never dismiss those, those feelings
of loneliness, if it does come up.

399
00:24:54,515 --> 00:24:58,294
Catherine: And from what you're
saying, you know, loneliness is

400
00:24:58,294 --> 00:25:03,950
something that can present itself
At any stage, at any age of life.

401
00:25:04,129 --> 00:25:06,139
Michelle: At absolutely any age of life.

402
00:25:06,180 --> 00:25:12,050
And I think people often assume that,
you know, some ages are more protected

403
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,100
than others, but it's not the case.

404
00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:19,595
We do find that loneliness, again, is
a It comes up when we're navigating,

405
00:25:19,855 --> 00:25:22,665
especially when we navigate those
social challenges in our lives.

406
00:25:23,075 --> 00:25:27,264
And if you kind of think about even
just, you know, our life to date, you

407
00:25:27,264 --> 00:25:32,415
can think about all the bumps and the way
we even think about our relationships.

408
00:25:33,149 --> 00:25:38,220
has changed and our needs have
changed, even just within us.

409
00:25:38,590 --> 00:25:42,489
So, you know, it's quite normal
to feel lonely at any given point.

410
00:25:42,540 --> 00:25:46,559
It's more around managing it and the
kinds of resources that we might have

411
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,659
access to, to manage our loneliness.

412
00:25:51,315 --> 00:25:56,365
Catherine: And so what are some of
the misconceptions around loneliness?

413
00:25:58,065 --> 00:26:01,705
Michelle: So the biggest misconceptions
is that we have to know more people

414
00:26:02,244 --> 00:26:03,514
to actually feel less lonely.

415
00:26:03,515 --> 00:26:06,364
And we know that that's not the case
as we know that the difference between

416
00:26:06,364 --> 00:26:10,154
social isolation and loneliness,
but also that like loneliness

417
00:26:10,204 --> 00:26:12,314
only affects older, older people.

418
00:26:12,684 --> 00:26:17,235
Uh, they, they, they do tend to constrain,
they have this picture of an older,

419
00:26:17,835 --> 00:26:22,015
you know, older person sitting in a
nursing home and looking out the window.

420
00:26:22,025 --> 00:26:22,635
So that's kind of what.

421
00:26:22,845 --> 00:26:25,915
Comes up for them when they
use the word lonely, but

422
00:26:25,915 --> 00:26:27,545
loneliness doesn't have a face.

423
00:26:27,575 --> 00:26:30,755
You know, that's that I can see very
clearly why people might think that

424
00:26:30,755 --> 00:26:34,425
because of that conflation with what
social isolation is, this is not to say

425
00:26:34,425 --> 00:26:36,075
that older Australians are not lonely.

426
00:26:36,115 --> 00:26:41,344
They are, they are also socially isolated,
but loneliness can look very different.

427
00:26:41,765 --> 00:26:47,354
And I have met, you know, very,
very, uh, high performing CEOs.

428
00:26:47,505 --> 00:26:52,285
You know, in my practice, for example,
who, you know, manage big teams and,

429
00:26:52,605 --> 00:26:55,915
you know, are very prominent in their
field, but at the end of the day on

430
00:26:55,945 --> 00:26:59,254
Friday night and they close their
door, they don't speak to anyone.

431
00:26:59,254 --> 00:27:03,104
They don't have any other interactions
with anyone else until the next, next

432
00:27:03,324 --> 00:27:07,315
Monday and feel incredibly lonely on
the weekends because they're really

433
00:27:07,315 --> 00:27:13,670
struggling to, you know, Find the time
to reconnect or find the time to make

434
00:27:13,670 --> 00:27:15,580
new friends because of their workload.

435
00:27:16,390 --> 00:27:17,820
Everyone goes through loneliness.

436
00:27:17,820 --> 00:27:22,840
It's a matter of how we manage it, how we,
what kind of resources we have, whether

437
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,599
we're willing to also reinvest in those
relationships or, or reinvest in ourselves

438
00:27:27,599 --> 00:27:29,609
to kind of gain more relationships.

439
00:27:29,609 --> 00:27:35,050
Cause it can be incredibly hard and
not everyone wants to necessarily cope

440
00:27:35,050 --> 00:27:37,369
with their loneliness with more people.

441
00:27:37,410 --> 00:27:40,430
Sometimes people just want to cope with
their loneliness with something else.

442
00:27:43,020 --> 00:27:50,250
Catherine: And so it seems to be
key in talking about loneliness or

443
00:27:50,250 --> 00:27:52,560
supporting someone who may be lonely.

444
00:27:53,029 --> 00:27:57,670
Sounds like it's very similar to
support someone who may be grieving.

445
00:27:58,239 --> 00:28:03,249
And that is, from what I'm
understanding, is don't assume.

446
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:09,080
But ask what that person
would like or what they need.

447
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,260
Michelle: I think that's spot on
because again, it's such a subjective

448
00:28:12,260 --> 00:28:17,270
experience and, you know, and, and also
I think even on that note, you know,

449
00:28:17,380 --> 00:28:18,990
maybe a little bit different to grief.

450
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,580
Loneliness can happen when
positive things happen.

451
00:28:23,609 --> 00:28:28,359
You know, when you actually become a
new parent, when you actually go to

452
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,359
a new country to get an awesome job,
you know, when, you know, there's a

453
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,464
new family member that, that, that.

454
00:28:34,465 --> 00:28:37,685
You know, maybe it's brought in
and married in and you feel like

455
00:28:37,685 --> 00:28:39,054
you're on the outer all of a sudden.

456
00:28:39,675 --> 00:28:43,155
All these positive things can also
bring about social challenges.

457
00:28:43,315 --> 00:28:45,234
So that's not assumed as well.

458
00:28:45,234 --> 00:28:47,685
It's like, oh, you know, you should
be happy or, you know, you've moved

459
00:28:47,685 --> 00:28:50,565
to a new school or you've, you
know, you've moved to a new job.

460
00:28:50,585 --> 00:28:52,344
You must be feeling great about that.

461
00:28:53,144 --> 00:28:55,414
Sometimes some people are
really struggling to make new

462
00:28:55,424 --> 00:28:57,124
relationships for whatever reason.

463
00:28:57,324 --> 00:29:01,264
You know, and because of time constraints,
money constraints, you know, that

464
00:29:01,264 --> 00:29:04,004
mobility issues, we don't know what it is.

465
00:29:04,064 --> 00:29:07,605
And so it's such a common
experience loneliness, but all of

466
00:29:07,605 --> 00:29:12,024
us, you know, and what leads to
our loneliness is very different.

467
00:29:14,194 --> 00:29:21,134
Catherine: And so today is Dying to
Know Day, the 8th of August, and it's

468
00:29:21,134 --> 00:29:24,364
right in amongst Ending Loneliness Yeah.

469
00:29:24,995 --> 00:29:27,334
So what do you suggest?

470
00:29:27,689 --> 00:29:31,240
People do if they are
concerned about a loved one.

471
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,510
Michelle: Look, I think we need to
think about, um, making sure that we

472
00:29:35,510 --> 00:29:37,620
know that everyone has a role to play.

473
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,620
It's just a matter of what you can do.

474
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,230
Uh, all of us can do something and, and.

475
00:29:44,875 --> 00:29:48,305
You know, sometimes it's kind of hard to
have that conversation with that person,

476
00:29:48,305 --> 00:29:53,165
but always making yourself available
or even just kind of normalizing it

477
00:29:53,275 --> 00:29:57,095
and, and, and talking about sometimes
your, your experience of loneliness

478
00:29:57,115 --> 00:30:01,785
can sometimes put someone else at ease
in a way that's, you know, uh, brief

479
00:30:01,785 --> 00:30:04,395
and not, not make it about yourself,
you know, kind of, there's a bit of a

480
00:30:04,395 --> 00:30:06,165
balance there to kind of have an opener.

481
00:30:06,665 --> 00:30:09,625
And if the person's willing to kind
of talk about loneliness really.

482
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,730
Uh, what I often, often say,
don't trivialize the experience.

483
00:30:14,020 --> 00:30:14,810
Never trivialize.

484
00:30:14,810 --> 00:30:17,280
You can normalize it
without trivializing it.

485
00:30:17,730 --> 00:30:21,420
But also that really having
only open ended questions.

486
00:30:21,940 --> 00:30:25,290
You know, what has made you
feel connected in the past?

487
00:30:25,290 --> 00:30:27,560
Who, who do you think you can confide in?

488
00:30:27,570 --> 00:30:28,970
Because it might not be about you.

489
00:30:29,430 --> 00:30:32,810
And someone's loneliness is
not Consequences of something

490
00:30:32,810 --> 00:30:33,900
you did or did not do.

491
00:30:33,980 --> 00:30:36,980
I think this is really important
that you need to remember because

492
00:30:36,980 --> 00:30:40,560
people often kind of take offense
to why is my mother feeling lonely?

493
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,700
Am I not giving her enough?

494
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:44,080
This is not about you.

495
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,510
This is about what your
mother needs other than you.

496
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,360
So actually having that reminder of,
you know, don't take it personally.

497
00:30:52,390 --> 00:30:53,800
This is not about this.

498
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:54,330
Yeah.

499
00:30:54,390 --> 00:30:57,970
Someone's loneliness that who you care
about very much, just asking about

500
00:30:58,010 --> 00:31:00,790
what you can do, how you can help.

501
00:31:01,290 --> 00:31:07,290
Uh, who they can go to, what they
can try, you know, and, uh, what is

502
00:31:07,290 --> 00:31:09,480
it that they think they can do now?

503
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,150
You know, we don't, again, this is
not about making new best friends.

504
00:31:13,180 --> 00:31:17,880
It's about just having little
quality interactions or little

505
00:31:17,910 --> 00:31:19,390
interactions along the way.

506
00:31:19,860 --> 00:31:24,330
And you know, before we know it, we,
we, we gain that social confidence

507
00:31:24,330 --> 00:31:28,370
where we start being able to, you know,
turn acquaintances into friends and,

508
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:30,600
you know, friends into closer friends.

509
00:31:30,630 --> 00:31:35,035
You know, We gotta kind of, we can
start somewhere, but we need to really

510
00:31:35,045 --> 00:31:39,385
empower the person and not kind of tell
them what they have to do, get them

511
00:31:39,385 --> 00:31:43,035
to really reflect on what they can do.

512
00:31:44,915 --> 00:31:48,185
Catherine: Michelle, I think that's
such powerful advice because sometimes

513
00:31:48,725 --> 00:31:52,685
we do make it about ourselves
and think, Oh, what have I done?

514
00:31:53,205 --> 00:31:54,365
What can I do?

515
00:31:55,205 --> 00:31:59,675
But from what you're saying, it
really is about empowering the

516
00:31:59,695 --> 00:32:02,415
person who is feeling lonely.

517
00:32:02,820 --> 00:32:06,370
On how they can feel
more connected themselves

518
00:32:06,610 --> 00:32:07,120
Michelle: to the lead.

519
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:11,670
Again, this is their experience and it
may not have anything to do you at all.

520
00:32:11,670 --> 00:32:15,510
So it's about giving them that, that
safe space, because if we don't do

521
00:32:15,510 --> 00:32:19,970
that safe space, they're more likely to
never trust you again and just close up.

522
00:32:21,740 --> 00:32:22,590
Catherine: That's wonderful.

523
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:24,940
Thank you so much for
your time today, Michelle.

524
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,370
Thank you, Catherine, for having me.

525
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,820
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526
00:32:32,130 --> 00:32:33,710
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