DBCD BACI HILLYER

Baci: [00:00:00] The biggest difference with dying with dignity is they're ready or they think they're ready. And it's quite interesting because the statistics say that not everybody uses, you know, they'll get their medicine, end of life medicine, the elixir, but a lot of them don't take it. So it's just the idea of the control and the ability to do it if they need.

So it's a beautiful moment where you're meeting autonomy with love and loss. That choice, capacity, and control there.

Catherine Ashton: Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host, Catherine Ashton Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life [00:01:00] because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared.

Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges the lands of the Kulin Nations and recognizes their connection to land, sea, and community. We pay our respects to their elders past, present, and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe.

Today I'm speaking with Baci Hillyer She describes herself as a radical realist dedicated to educating and motivating end of life preparation in a death phobic society. She believes how we meet death shapes, how we truly live as an end of life, doula, advocate, and storyteller. She works to socialize death by fostering open, compassionate dialogue that transforms apprehension into meaningful action.

Her mission is to help others find greater peace, [00:02:00] clarity, and purpose in both living and leaving well. Her journey began not as a professional, but as a daughter, sister, and teenager cracked open by loss, walking through the wounds of death for over 37 years. That deeply personal experience led her to become a certified end of life doula and a committed volunteer in palliative care.

And with Dying with Dignity Victoria through powerful talks, soul Grounded Storytelling and practical resources, Baci Hillyereducates advocates and awakens action, encouraging individuals to prepare for the inevitable, holistically, lovingly, and without delay, I can't thank you enough for me with us Baci Hillyer Wow, what an intro.

Can you be my, uh, PR agent, 

Baci: please? 

Catherine Ashton: No. I think your, um, your amazing video, uh, is a beautiful introduction to your personal story. [00:03:00] Uh, can you tell us a little bit about how you got started? 

Baci: Well, yes. Well, we all have a story, don't we? Yeah. So mine, mine started a long, long time ago. Uh, I was 15 and, uh, sadly, and suddenly my father and my brother died within five months of each other.

My father had a brain tumor, and, uh, my brother died in a car crash five months later. So it was, look, I'm shortening it because it's a really long story, but the reason is, is that it was just epic. It was, it was a, it was a tsunami, I guess. It totally hit the family. It was, it was so unexpected. It was, it had a bit of, you know, with the, with dad, with his brain tumor.

It had the, you know, the privilege of at least saying goodbye. Uh, it was a, it was short amount of time, but we got to say goodbye. [00:04:00] And with my brother, we didn't. Uh, so I sort of really got to experience the hospital, the cancer, the chemo, palliative care. And then with my brother, it was the sudden shock and the identifying that the body and the falling apart of the family and the parent.

And so it just, it, it was a baptism of fire. And, and with that came survival, bereavement, grief, trauma, uh, complex post-traumatic stress disorder, having to heal, uh, so many, many decades of that. And finally popping out at the end and realizing that with this experiential knowledge that I had something to share and to offer in a place of.

Of, of a healing place, not from a traumatized place. You know, I think really I've landed in the work that I do at the right time [00:05:00] because I'm a lot older now. I'm 52, and I've traveled, I've traveled a hard, long road and I've done a lot of work, and I feel that I'm able to understand what's mine. I can meet people where they're at.

I can understand energetically, uh, the right boundaries, and I can really get in there and roll my sleeves up and do, do some work and help people to, to respond and help them to do it a lot better than we did it back then. And I'm pretty passionate about it and I, I feel I'm pretty good at it. 

Catherine Ashton: Yeah. Um, I love the fact that, uh, you describe yourself as a radical realist and, and just, just on the point that.

That you are a woman who just publicly declared that she's 52. Oh, can I love it? Can I just say that, that is so refreshing. 

Baci: Oh, I love my age. The, the older I get the better. [00:06:00] I, I'm really looking forward to, and I really mean this to becoming an elder. I'm feeling better in my skin than I've ever felt, and I'm feeling more in my passion and my purpose than I've ever felt before.

So, oh, thank God I'm here. I'm owning it. Because I think with that age comes a lot of wisdom and, um, or authority to speak from experience. And I feel really confident in that. And I think that's a great part of, of working in end of life. You don't want some 25-year-old rocking up at the end of life. You don't want a 30-year-old.

You don't even want a 40-year-old hit 50, hit 60, hit 70. You can be by my bedside. You know, because you've walked, you've walked the yards, and I'm owning it. I love it. 

Catherine Ashton: There is something to be said about the, the stories that you accumulate over time. Mm-hmm. Uh, and the [00:07:00] impact that that has and, and what you learn from them.

Uh, I, I, I bumped into someone at an old workplace last night and, and they said that, uh, they had experienced someone close to them. Uh, die, uh, only recently. And, and that was in their, uh, late sort of thirties and, and I thought, wow, okay. There is people that that don't have that experience of, of a, a loved one dying until they're sort of in their, their thirties and forties.

Yeah. Um, certainly it wasn't your case 

Baci: or the death, the late death virgins. Yeah. They're the luckiest people. I love being around them because they just don't have this, this, the damage. They don't have the trauma and they may have lost a grandparent. I have, um, a really good friend. He's 50 and he's lost only a grandparent, but he didn't know the grandparent, so he still hasn't lost.

So he's like the, [00:08:00] a oldest living virgin death. Virgin, his, his wife lost a sister. He's lost people through. Other through friends and family, but no one himself. And he's still the only one I know that's like that. And he's seriously the best dancer, the best, the happiest person. He's always the one making the cocktails.

And I attribute it to that. I'm like, dude, you still haven't started your grief walk. That's 

Catherine Ashton: huge. But you thinks that, that, do you think that, see, I would say that when you actually experience death, that's when you actually probably live better. Look a 

Baci: hundred percent. So am I, you know what, what's better?

We can't compare. It's just what has happened to him. Yeah. And he's been lucky enough, I guess, to live in this bubble of bliss. 

Catherine Ashton: Yeah. 

Baci: And we, we make that assumption. But I, I have to say, I don't think so. I think he's living a pretty good life. I, I, you, you would, you would [00:09:00] think that, I think. What you do is you go deeper, you go really deep.

You have to, you have to go there. You, once you're in, in grief on your grief walk and death has happened to you, you have no choice. You're in, you're in the abuse of grief. You are there. We're all there. And it doesn't go away. The, if there's something that I have learn on my 37 years of grief walking, and that's seven over 70% of my life is that grief doesn't leave it, and it doesn't get lighter and it doesn't get easier.

In fact, for me, it got a lot harder. The older I got, the more I yearned for my dad. The, the older I got, the longer it was that I hadn't seen him. So you just managing it and living, living with it, and the age when I turned [00:10:00] 45. And that was the age that he died. That was a whole nother layer of grief and understanding.

And then when I turned 46, all of a sudden I'm older than my dad. Yeah. So you go through these from a 15-year-old journey into 52. Boy, I have to tell you, I've, I've got a really good understanding of the different stages and the ages and moments of grief, and it hasn't, it's, it's, it changes all the time.

These milestones or these times where it hits you. When my children turn. The age that I was at 15 was the first time that I actually thought about myself as a 15-year-old. I went shit. You were so young because my 15-year-old self had grown up and Right. I, I'm surviving, [00:11:00] and I, I hadn't even looked at her until I looked at my children.

So you get hit. It's, it's a long road. It's a long and arduous road, but it teaches you how to live. Yeah. Every death and grief teaches you how to embrace life. There's no doubt about it. That's absolutely one thing. It, it's, it's with you all the time and you're learning to live with it. But hey, we all are right.

Everyone's on a grief walk. We're all in separate times. Except for my friend who hasn't started his grief walk, but he's on a grief walk for his wife. He understands grief and lost animals. When you lose your animals, that's grief walking. Yeah. It is human nature and humankind. I mean, our whole journey is, it's pretty much suffering.

It's whole lot of loss. We come in here making connections and then we have to say goodbye to all of those connections. And of course, there's a loss of, [00:12:00] of yourself who you are as an, as. You grow older, you hit a, you hit 50. Grief is everywhere, isn't it, 

Catherine Ashton: Catherine Ashton? It's just, it's a part of life. Oh, so many, so many elements.

And, and tell me, with those, those learnings that you've, you've, uh, experienced over time, how has that shaped how you support other people when they're facing a, a life limiting illness? 

Baci: Well, back to being a radical realist, I'm, I'm real, I'm authentic. I think there's no euphemisms. There's no mollycoddling, there's no cotton there.

There's deep compassion. But how I meet people is a deep understanding and also knowing that I don't know everything. I just, I'm showing up. I've lost a father, I've lost a brother, but I haven't lost a mother. I haven't lost a child. So [00:13:00] it's, it's about just being real and honest and shutting up. Showing up and stepping up and listening.

Yeah. And understanding that what people really need is to be heard. And that's, that's really what my learnings. Of what my experience has told me, that over the years, all I really probably needed myself was to be heard and to be given the time to, to talk about what happened. And not many people do that very well.

I'm sad to say, yeah, active listening's a skill and you need to learn it. And I don't think you really get it until you've been there. So yeah, I think, look, there's so much, I mean, I could talk about it forever, but I think [00:14:00] that's the, the fundamental, the, the, the deepest layer of what I, what I give. 

Catherine Ashton: And how would you suggest when family there is a diagnosis and, and people sometimes wanna say something they're not quite sure what they should say.

Given the experience that you have working in that space, what have you found to be the things that either someone has said to you that has been comforting or advice that you provide to those loved ones? 

Baci: Hmm, 

Catherine Ashton: that's 

Baci: a good question. I guess you are talking about when they've received the diagnosis or just at any stage?

Catherine Ashton: I think at any stage, look, you can, you can look at each different stage because they're, they're all quite different. But I think that they're, I think at any point there's, it's difficult having conversations with perhaps someone [00:15:00] who, uh, you know, uh, has a, a life limiting illness and a diagnosis. The best thing 

Baci: to do really is to, to meet someone where they're at.

So I think the first thing that IWI would say is you need to be led by the person, uh, depending on your relationship with them and how, how well you know them. Uh, the twofold approach is one from your side, are you, who are you and what can you offer? So I always look at the these four H words and they're really easy to remember.

So it's a human approach. One, are you a person? Who's of the heart? Are you, have you always been really in your heart, you really compassionate? Is that your approach with people? You, that's nurturing, heartfelt person? Are you a person that likes to help? How do you help? Are you really practical? Are you, do you help emotionally?

Do you help physically? [00:16:00] Are you a person that is one of hope? Are you really spiritual? Do you. Look, hope is is essential, but it's not a strategy. But it's definitely essential. Are you one of those hopeful people or are you a person that's really funny? Are you humorous? So then you've gotta work out where am I going to help the most?

Or what am I gonna be the most effective? Because if I'm gonna come in and try to be funny, but I'm not really that funny, it's nothing's gonna be authentic. Yeah. So you need to sort of ask yourself, Hey, who am I? What, what can I provide? And then the final one is be honest. So you come in, you say, Hey, honestly I am so out of my depth and I'm so uncomfortable.

But if you need anything to do with the heart, I'm here. I I'll, I'll talk anything heart. I've got all the compassion in the world. I wanna hear you. I wanna listen to you. You can come in and say, Hey, [00:17:00] I don't know, but I tell you what, if you need me to send you a funny meme. Every day, day. I'll send you a funny meme.

If you need me to make you laugh, I will make you laugh. Um, do you know what I'm, I don't know what the hell to do, but if I can pick up your kids, if I can do something in your garden, if I can, you know, offer help practically, professionally, anything, Hey, I'll get this done for you. I'll pick up the, the mail.

I will, you know, anything. I'll get your taxes done. Whatever it is. I think that's always the best approach when someone is, is in that space. You are honest and then you offer something that you know you can actually do. Don't offer them anything you that's out of your depth or don't, don't. Say platitudes.

Don't give them shit. Just work out from you. [00:18:00] And then meet them when they're at where they're at. And if you feel that they don't wanna talk about anything, you need to tune into that as well. And ask permission. Ask permission. Hey, do you mind if we talk about this now? No. Okay. No problem. When you are ready, you know that I'm here.

And then just keep showing up. Keep showing up. Don't be shy, because things are changing all the time and people really appreciate honesty. I think at the end of the life, you need to be having the most authentic conversations, or you have the opportunity to enter in the most authentic conversations. And if the person wants to be in complete denial and doesn't want anything to do with it, doesn't wanna talk about it, just wants to.

Putting it all on you. Oh, how's your family? And they don't wanna discuss anything. Great. Meet them there without [00:19:00] any judgment. That's, I think that's 

Catherine Ashton: my answer. Well, I think that's an exceptionally good answer. Oh, good. Now tell me, how did you get involved with Dying with Dignity Victoria? 

Baci: Oh, well, look, I'm so passionate.

So my, my little friend Zika, I say little friend, my little banana in pajamas. We, we worked in palliative care together. We volunteered and we always got caught. B one and B two. We were like a little bit silly on the ward. We, she, her and I are just passionate about dying with dignity, full stop. Whether that's in palliative care, whether that's in life and.

She was volunteering at, you know, for voluntary sister die. And I said, Hey, you better sign up here too. I said, okay, no problem. Of course. And we both, you know, we're just very passionate about end of life [00:20:00] and honoring and dignified death. And since volunteering there, I've just had the most incredible experiences.

And it's quite different because you are dealing with people who have made the courageous choice to end their life or end their suffering or end their life before unnecessary suffering. And it's legal, you know, that's massive. It's, it's incredible. Now that it's so legal and above board, I think society still have a long way of catching up in terms of perception.

But you, you, you code to these houses and you witness, and then you end up talking to people. And of course you're talking to them, but they're so resolved. And that's quite different because you're, you're coming from a place saying palliative, where there's a lot of people that aren't resolved, they're not ready, or they're [00:21:00] trying to extend or hang on to life and that's okay.

Where whatever it's, uh, but the biggest difference with dying with dignity is they're, they're ready. They, they, or they think they're ready. And it's quite interesting because the, the statistics say that not everybody uses, you know, they'll get their medic medicine. Of life medicine, the elixir, but a lot of them don't take it.

So it's just the idea of the control and the ability to do it if they need. So it's, it's a beautiful moment where you're meeting autonomy with love and loss, that choice, capacity and control there. And some families are really supportive and ready and guiding that and others it's not, not always like that.

So it's an interesting space. But yeah, I got there through my [00:22:00] friend Ika and uh, her and I are now starting. This long journey and path and passion is to to to start the first voluntary sister dying hospice in Victoria. So it's a big undertaking, but we've got a crew of wonderful women and, and, uh, yeah, we're, we're, it's a big labor of love, but we're, we're starting that now as a result of, of our work there.

We've seen a big need and it's, it's the way forward. Yeah. It's exciting. 

Catherine Ashton: It's exciting and I, I'd love to know more about it. Like what, what does that involve? When you, you have this idea, you know, what are the, what is the, the framework set forward for you about developing that? How do you go about it? How do you fund it?

How do you build it? Like tell me, talk me through the process. Well, I tell you 

Baci: what, that's. That's the big, [00:23:00] that's the big issue. It's huge. It's a big undertaking and yeah, it evolves a lot. So we've, we're at the moment we're, it's about discussions really. It's talking to a lot of people. It's getting information with government funding who's gonna be able to help us.

We've got architects on board and we are meeting with hospices online who are already doing this, and we are looking at the structure of how their set up is. And we're talking to business people. Uh, we we're looking at how to fund it. We've got the accountant, we've got the lawyers. Look, it's, it's, it's everything.

You know, it's legal, it's it's ethical. It's the emotional, it's, it's how does the hospice look? Who do we need to be looking after? It's not just the person who's dying, it's the families, it's bereavement after it's location. It's, it's everything. So it's a big team effort and it's a lot, but what we're finding is that.

So many people are willing to [00:24:00] help. So many people are offering assistance and we, we don't have this experience at all. We've just got the passion. And what's happening is we're really bringing together a whole lot of people with the same passion and they are coming together and we're, we're, we're just going through it blindly, I guess, but we're getting informed and putting together a pretty amazing prospectus.

And, uh, we're getting some great feedback. And then the next step will be funding and convincing the government to back us and hope, hopefully Victor the way. But if not, we'll go to other states. Yeah, we'll just keep pushing and pushing and pushing. 

Catherine Ashton: And so what sort of support are you after? Uh, what, obviously you have a lot of people who are keen to see it happen, but from a practicality, se, you know, sense like it is funding that you need [00:25:00] money, isn't it?

They need money. Absolutely. Yeah. We need money. We 

Baci: need a property and we need money to set up, to set up this hospice. And that's really what it is. So whether, whether that comes from government or whether we get it privately funded, there are ways, there are ways. So we need to put a really compelling.

Marketing campaign together to get this done. And I think we've got that. There's a lot to be said and there's a lot of people, and I think the more publicity voluntary sister dying gets, I mean, you know, the more people who are doing it. And also like with, recently with Robert Walls who, who passed away the footballer, that was really huge.

And the more people that that do it and, and experience it themselves and understand that, that ability to have that choice now that it's made legal, that once someone's made the choice, they really need somewhere to go. And hospitals aren't [00:26:00] set up for, for VAD and a lot of people don't wanna die at home.

Understandably so, because it's the family home and they need to, they need a place where they can go and it seems so quiet and underhanded and they're getting Airbnbs or going to hotels. I mean, it's just. It's, it's sad. It doesn't, it shouldn't end like that. There's talk about a caravan, you know, that goes around and to people that it's, it needs to be dignified.

You know, when you make that choice, they need to be able to go somewhere where they're held and the last moments. And it's, you know, it's, it's, it's gotta be about the person, not the policy. You know, it's, it's, it has to be, uh, holistic care right from the start to the finish. And at the moment, the finish is not, it's not being catered to.

So, yeah, what do we need? We need funding. Yeah. So it's going to take a while, but, and when [00:27:00] you do it right and when you have the best intentions, I think the right people come out. They'll come out and they'll help. And it's also something that I feel is, it's inevitable. It's some hospices are going to be.

Extremely important with our aging population, and we need to come up with some pretty savvy answers. Pretty, pretty soon. So even a, a model of having homes that are empty and having people allowed to go in there and, and, and die in a beautiful space, uh, you know, as blueprints on how this looks, it, this all needs to start happening now.

Yeah. Above, above board and openly. Yeah. It's happening, but it needs to be championed and held in, in know, and revered in reverence. Yeah. Not underhanded. Not oh, quietly. You know, [00:28:00] this person's gonna get this place and die there. There's nothing, nothing should be secret about it. Yeah. 

Catherine Ashton: And because people who decide to go down the palliative, uh, process, and maybe you can talk about the palliative process, um, as compared to a voluntary assisted dying process and what perhaps those, those needs are, how they differ between like a, a palliative care facility, which we already have.

And then what's more unique about what the needs are around the family of someone who's got chosen voluntary assisted dying. Mm, yeah. Really good question. 

Baci: Palliative and, and voluntary at the end. Uh, uh, that's the same result. Uh, the, the other thing is I guess with palliative it, it doesn't. It neither extends or shortens life.

It's really meeting someone holistically with a team of interdisciplinary, you know, [00:29:00] teams of doctors and, um, allied health and social workers, pastoral carers. It's a, it's a holistic approach to ensure that the person with the life limit in illness is living their best possible life. They're living with a, with a disease, not dying from it.

And it's, it's a beautiful way to explain it. Palliative is also not always necessarily the end, and that's a big myth. And I want to say that there are people in palliative care for 10 years. You know, it could be 10 days, 10 months, 10 years, 10 hours. You know, it's, it's a big range. Uh, the minute someone is, both of them, uh, you have to have a life limiting terminal illness to be able to access.

Palliative or voluntary sister died. The rules around voluntary sister dying are a lot stricter. Uh, hopefully the laws are going to [00:30:00] to change, uh, around that. It's fantastic that it's happened, but they need to, to, they need to be changed, to be more flexible and to be more kind. It's very difficult for the person, person who's got the terminal illness, who wants voluntary sister die and could be in palliative care as well.

They're also there. They just, by the time that they choose to die, it might just be a little bit too late. You know, it takes the paperwork, you know, that, that they have to go through. It's a, it's a lot of bureaucratic process given six months and there's a lot of arming and I think, I think with palliative it's a.

You end up dying in hospital or you can go home. Uh, once people get there, they tend to stay there. Uh, rarely people go home unless they've really, really, really wanna get home and it's [00:31:00] okay for them to be at home. In other words, it's manageable because it's decision is really around the family. In both situations, it should be about the person dying, but you know what they really want.

But a lot of the times, if a, if a person, for instance, is, has shit coming out of every orifice, they're not gonna go home. It's more traumatic for the people at home when that's happening. Yeah. So of course they need to be staying somewhere where that's. Taken care in, in the best possible way with the best possible staff.

So incidences like that, you know, you, you have to have a plan. Your plan will go out the door. When, when things are that go really horribly wrong, obviously in the great scenario, someone can go, okay, I'm leaving now and I'm gonna go and die at home. And I've seen that happen, and that's, that's beautiful.

Uh, so they're waiting for end of life to happen as it happens naturally. Someone with voluntary sister [00:32:00] dying saying, I don't want to go through that palliative process where it's, it's slowly shutting down and there's a lot of pain and there's a lot of drugs, and my family have to come in and see me like that.

I'm going to avoid that. I know where it's going. I have a, a brain tumor and I know that I need to do that now. Uh, that is a huge decision. It's a courageous and brave decision, and I feel that with those people because they're so sure of it and they know exactly why they're doing it. The family might not be happy about it, but they respect it deeply.

Yeah. There seems to be more of a, a resolve when you are dealing with voluntary assisted dying. There's more peace, there's more acceptance, and even if there's one or two in the family that aren't, the rest of the family are carrying them because they know that this [00:33:00] is the absolute desire and need and of the, of the di of the traveler of the person dying.

That's, that's their request. That's what they want and it's about them. So there's a certainty, a definite, right? Whereas in palliative, it's, it's all still quite unknown. Is it three weeks? Is it, is it three months? Is it three weeks? Is it three days? Is it three hours? Mm. With voluntary sister dying, it's okay.

Here's the process. Here are the, the doctors are signing off and here's the medicine, here's the procedure. Off you go. 

Catherine Ashton: And then it's up to them. And tell me, how is it to support family through that process? Are you there or does it depend on who you're engaged by? Are you engaged by the person who's the traveler?

Or are you [00:34:00] there engaged by the family of that traveler? 

Baci: Well, I've been a bit of a cheat lately because when I volunteer, it's. Held by everyone else. So that's a lot better for my mental health. As an end of life doula, I stopped doing private work because my kids were still at school, and it's really difficult to take on that work when you have a family.

So since my daughter finished her year 12 last year, I, I can start to do individual end of life doula work again, but I probably won't because I feel after my time on the ward in palliative, even though I was a volunteer there, I was still doering because at the end of the day, we're all doulas, right?

All of us are end of life carers, and each one of us has to statistically look after the end of [00:35:00] life of at least three loved ones. So we're all gonna be doing the work that I do. There's nothing really special about me other than I'm trained and I have more experience and I'm probably more death comfortable.

But each person is going to have to do what I do. So my passion and my mission is to try to help everybody to do that to. So really I wanna do myself out of a job. So vol. So when you are engaged, so as an end of life doula, whoever engages you, that's who your client is. So you will advocate and find resources, and find information for, and work for in a non-medical role for that person who's engaged you as a volunteer.

Luckily. My boundaries are everybody else, the, the team in palliative care are all there. So it's fabulous. So I'm just showing up, [00:36:00] sitting, talking to knowing, knowing my boundaries. But probably we would joke a bit with the volunteer hub that I probably crossed a lot of boundaries, but comfortably so, and legally and ethically, beautifully.

So that's the skill. It's discernment. And I would end up sitting, you know, it's not like I would go on the ward and have to go into every bed that day. I would float in, find where I was supposed to be, and even if I spent two hours with one person, the beauty and the ability to be able to do that. 'cause not being a nurse, not being someone who's coming to prod them.

Not someone who's coming to assess them, but someone to come and meet them. What, where they need, where they're at, and the ability to leave knowing that they were still cared for. Was was just really, really helpful. It's helpful to me as a person because I care so much and I can take on so much. So [00:37:00] yeah, I, I got to see a lot as a volunteer in palliative care.

I get to see a lot. 

Catherine Ashton: And tell me what is it Baci that people wanna talk about? Is there trends that you've noticed or No, 

Baci: no trends. The only thing at the end of the day that I feel is I have had the most authentic conversations that I've ever had in my life with people who are dying. That's, that's the trend.

It's, it's real, but how, how, that is, how that looks. Depends on each individual's character. It's as real as it gets for them. So it's amazing. It's really what they wanna talk about. Sometimes it's super emotional, sometimes it's just so funny. And some people, look, I've, I've been in a room where the guy in there is brought in his whole supercomputer and he's playing with his grandkids.

Um. What are those [00:38:00] games? Um, those that, anyway, what are they called? Xbox, Nintendo. Xbox. Nintendo. Nintendo to PlayStation. He got his PlayStation in there and he's playing with his grandkids. And then next minute there's a, an Amazon delivery into his room and, and it's coming. I've gone, what are these? And he goes, oh, they're my, they're my undies.

They're my piss undies and my shitty undies from America because. In Australia, they don't have my sight. So I've got three xl and he said, my goodness. Yeah. So I put these pants on and they're all stretch and we've opened them up and, you know, it's just, it's hilarious, you know? So I've gone into some people's wards and they're just, oh my God.

It's, it's, it's terrible because the palliative ward that I work on is a neurological disorder. So you've got MND, you've got Parkinson's disease, you've got Huntington's disease, you've got brain tumor, and it's all, it's heroine. Heroine. [00:39:00] Um, you've got people on the way down, you've got people who've just had their diagnosis and you've got people on the way out.

So it's a mishmash. And then you've got cancer patients. So it's, no one's the same. Nothing's the same. Uh, each person's completely unique and individual, and everyone's families are all different as well. And you've got a whole lot of cultural stuff happening, so. It's big. It's a lot. But the, the one thing is it's a very authentic space.

Yeah. There's the one thing, the one thread in common is everyone's face in death. 

Catherine Ashton: And just when you were talking about the diversity of what you're seeing in that one particular ward, it makes it very clear that then someone who has chosen voluntary assisted dying would be not the right fit for that space.

When, when, when they, and why the, [00:40:00] the need for a hospice is specifically that they can choose that. 

Baci: Well, no, not really because, uh, a lot of people will come from palliative and go, I, I've seen this. I'm not going there. Please. I, I'm, I want to finish it now beforehand. Yeah. Okay. So it's, yeah. They, they both really work together.

I think the, the problem is in the, in certain hospitals, they turn you away when you want voluntary CYS to die, and that shouldn't be the case. In an ideal world, if you are in palliative Palliative and you wanna end it, you should be able to end it, and then you should be able to go into another space that is for that space.

But there isn't that option at this point in time. No. And that it may very well end up being there on our journey. It may very well be that the best option is to, to allow that to happen and it go there into another space. But that doesn't fix the problem for the people who [00:41:00] choose to die and they wanna get out of.

Environment. They don't wanna die in there. 70, 70% of people don't wanna die in a hospital. It's not a medical event. We need to remind ourselves that dying is, is a, is a core human right of passage. It's not a medical event. So that would be for someone who is comfortable to die in hospital. They feel comforted by that, but the majority of people don't want that.

They wanna be looking out at a last sunset. They wanna be by the ocean, they may wanna be in nature, they want to be somewhere where it's revered and they're, they're honoring and it's sacred to the decision that they've made. And they wanna be able to die in a peaceful way, uh, surrounded by their loved ones and not in a hospital environment.

[00:42:00] So, yeah. And I guess back to the question that you're asking me, the support of the family, it's a, it's a lot it know for them to be, they're not trained. Families aren't trained. If they're lucky enough to have someone in there that, that is experienced and death comfortable or has a background, then they're leading the way.

There's some people that inherently step up and, and can lead the way, but it's a lot. So that's why a hospice is really good, because a hospice is holistic, parents's helping the family to come through. And really, let's just say it's three days we've been, there's a lot of talk about how long does the family get to come in and do that?

Well, you do all of your goodbyes at home. You have your living wake, you, you say goodbye to everybody. Then you come to the hospice and let's say you have three days. Three nights where you have a big cuddle bed. You know, the setup is really different and there's [00:43:00] ways that everybody's supported there and, and make them feel so incredibly comfortable.

And the person hopefully at that stage is really not in a lot of pain. They're really in their, in their essence, and without anxiety, without stress, they're, they're resolved. In palliative, it's all about is pain management, is someone screaming and writhing in pain, which you see a lot. Yeah. They are constantly assessing and reassessing and pain management and different things that are happening.

And some of the time in palliative, palliative, there's a resistance to the morphine or the morphine's gonna knock them out and I won't see them again. And you know, that's really the time that the person dies for someone is when they're. Cold and they never come back. So this is a very different scenario, right?

Mm. You've got somebody who is well before that because they've decided, I, I don't wanna do that. I see that and I [00:44:00] don't wanna put my family through it. I don't wanna go through it. So it's a very different environment. You've got families coming in who are all chatting and everybody is in full agency.

Yeah. And you're also in your, I I've, I've met people who are joking and telling me their life stories, and they're completely normal and they're just headed that way. In the next six months, it's going to be hor horrific. Harrowing and brutal. Yeah. So you're seeing them here and it's sort of, for some families it just doesn't make sense.

It's like, mom, dad, I, you, you are robbing me of time. Time that I, I wanna have with you, but the question is, what quality of time is that? And someone wants to be dignified as they go. They don't wanna be in nappies to be changed, to be rolled over from bedsores. [00:45:00] Yeah. And each one, there's no right or wrong, is there, if that's your choice.

No. That's your choice. 

Catherine Ashton: No, but for me, when you've been talking through the, the process and, and, and the differences between palliative and, and voluntary assisted dying. For me, I suppose that the point that when I was talking before was the fact that. It is very different stages for me in my head about how I view it, because in a care facility and what those facilities would look like would be probably very different things.

And I think you've made a, made a really good example of that at explaining those needs as well. So someone is very medical needing that, medical assistance in a palliative, uh, nature and an environment where they're, they're talking about pain management. Yeah. Uh, and, and then we've got the diversity of that, but then with voluntary assistance, assisted dying, it's something very different, isn't [00:46:00] it?

Yeah. Like, it is the, the wake speed, the living wakes being had. If, if that's what they've chosen, you know, then it's really. Having a place that I suppose is a neutral environment that is a canvas to whatever they want it to be. Absolutely. That's the hospice. 

Baci: That's it. Yeah. It's a, it's a neutral place, and it doesn't have to have a hospital vibe to it at all.

I mean, the bed could even be just king beds. They don't have to be sitting up. It depends on where the person is on their journey at, at the moment, because the law is six months, you know, for Victoria, like it's a year or six months, they will be at a stage where they're sick. They've got six months that they're gonna be really skinny.

They're going, like, if they've got cancer, whatever their condition is, they're not going to be looking normal. Right. They're going to be headed that way. So we are trying to, we want the laws to be able to help someone die earlier and, and dementia. I mean, this is, this is, this is a hot topic. Dementia [00:47:00] just seems to be really rife everywhere.

Right? So why can't they? Decide if it can happen so fast. Recently, some friends, the, my mother, she got diagnosed with dementia and the, the, it was such a, such a fast, brutal decline, you know, of, of losses, you know, just every day something more and more and more. And it was really quick. And other people, it's not.

But why can't that person go? I know that I'm gonna lose my mind. I wanna say goodbye to everybody and then I can go, I mean, that's really where it should be at. But, 'cause you need to be able to sign and have choice, capacity, control, full agency. You need to be very aware at the six months before you, when you sign to take your medi, to take the, um, elixir to kill yourself.

That's, you know, that robs all of those people with dementia. And so you've got a whole lot of people suffering [00:48:00] that, that decline. And same with MND. Same with any neurological disorder. It's really, really brutal. So yeah, it's that. That's the picture and coming out of that darkness, 'cause it is really heavy.

I wanna go back to palliative as well. I wanna paint a nicer picture of palliative that people are in there to get nutritional needs done. Nutritional needs met, and occupational things done. They've gotta come in, okay, we need a new wheelchair, a different walker. You know, there's a lot of rooms that are having these things done.

Just assessments on the journey. Journey. Yeah. But as MND kicks in and those sorts of neurological disorders get really nasty that someone, they should be able to, to get voluntary cys dying, but they, they're not. So that's the palliative end and then voluntary Cy Dying's. Yeah. I, I think, [00:49:00] I hope, is there any other questions?

I hope I've explained that. Okay. It's, it's, it's a lot isn't it? 

Catherine Ashton: It is a lot. And yeah. And also, um, for someone who may never have actually been associated with what palliative means and what those, uh, that looks like, I think it's really helpful with how you've gone through with some of those explanations and just the diversity of, of what palliative.

A palliative ward can, can contain, so anyone from someone who's just been diagnosed to just getting some, some, some, uh, tube feeding or something like that for, for deficiencies in their nutrients or something like that to write through to someone who needs 24 hour support. So I think it's really good that you've gone through that process and explained that because not everyone's familiar.

Uh, I've only had the, the one experience in our family where we've had someone who went through the, the palliative process, uh, and it was a. A really great experience for, for us as well, as good as [00:50:00] it can be. Uh, you know, when, when you do go through that, uh, and, and the staff were amazing and so supportive during that whole process.

But I think then it's really good because then it provides some context for people when you're actually talking about why it's so important to have a hospice dedicated to voluntary assisted dying and people who have, have chosen that. Yeah. Because that is something that those needs are very unique.

They are 

Baci: so unique. Right. At the very end, especially that's very unique. They're quite separate. I see what you're saying. When, when you say they're quite separate, I totally agree with you. But the end result is, is of course palliative is the natural, leaving it up to nature of when the body chooses to die.

And that's not always a, a. An easy thing, you know, on Tuesday, just this Tuesday, I, I went and sat with, with a parent of a friend in active dying stage, and I [00:51:00] said, I said to them something that I say to everybody that what you are seeing, you know, the death rattle, the laboring of death, we, we come into this world laboring, you know, there's a full labor of the birth of the baby and we leave this world laboring if we are lucky enough to leave like that.

If it's not a sudden death and it's the usual linear process, the timeline and or from a life limited illness and old age as you go into active dying stage, it's, it's, it's labor laborsome, it's, it looks terrible and usually what the person is going through. It's not what we're seeing and what we're witnessing, but it, when you start to say, look, it's laboring out of, out of life, and it's not a pretty sound.

And I also recently spoke to a, a thin ontologist who plays [00:52:00] harp music as people are dying and, and crossing over. And she said, Barchie, I harp music's not pretty because I'm not playing c notes and heart notes as the person's dying because they're trying to die. So if they're connecting to heartbeat and their heart's wanting to stay alive to this music, I'm playing really off, off tunes.

And I thought, wow. Oh wow. Isn't that amazing information? I was like, wow. She said, oh, it's pretty, I have to tell you it's, it's sort of a bit ugly. And I was blown away by that. But it made so much sense. You can't even, wasn't it playing this music when someone's trying to die where the heart is? Pumping to to beautiful reggae.

Catherine Ashton: Yeah. But I had never thought of that, but that 

Baci: makes total sense. Mm-hmm. And here I was, you know, imagining this angelic harp music and crossing over [00:53:00] as I go, no, the body doesn't need that. The body is trying to go. And a lot of people have to realize that that why people die between three and five in the morning and not in the quiet silence.

Of that, those hours, and not with family members and not with all different energies in the room. It's because they're latching onto someone's crying or, you know, it's hard to die as it is, but having family members around making it even harder, that's like the, people wonder why after you leave the room they die.

Yeah. It's something I always explain to people, you need to be really in a very peaceful place and in resolve, and you gotta leave your shit outside the door. 'cause it's really about them. You can go and deal with that after, but really, you know, it's a rite of passage here. You gotta meet, meet that person, and this dying and laboring out is, it's, it's really full on.

But there of course, in liminal space and moving through and who knows [00:54:00] what's happening, but something very, very spiritual and very beautiful and, and very sacred is, is occurring. But it doesn't sound good. And it doesn't look good. Yeah. Actually it looks horrible and it sounds awful. Yeah, it's traumatizing for a lot of people.

But once you see that over and over again and you realize, wow, okay, this is what death looks like. This is active dying, you know, you become more death comfortable with it. And when you speak to friends who've gone through multiple deaths or seven deaths, they're, they're, they're death comfortable.

They're like, oh, I've seen this before. I know what's happening. And, um, yeah, it's, we all, it's, it, it, it always just surprises me and it, I'm forever questioning why we aren't doing this so perfectly well when 10 out of 10 of us are gonna die. We all know this. Yeah. Why, why are we struggling in [00:55:00] 2025? I mean, come on, let's get this sorted.

Everyone needs this education. It should all be. We, we should be meeting death so beautifully in western society, like they do in the indigenous cultures. What, what are we doing? We've need to reconnect and bring it back to, to being human 'cause it's not a medical event. And be so grateful for modern medicine and so grateful for palliative and so grateful for pain management and, and wonderful advice.

But we need to, to step it up and bring it back home. We need to rehumanize it again. 

Catherine Ashton: And how do you think that the average everyday person, perhaps our, you know, our people who are death virgins, how, how do you suggest that they, they perhaps, you know, explore, you know, the 

Baci: inevitable nap out of it? Come on, wake up.

Get your head outta sand. You [00:56:00] need to lean into death. And back to what you were saying before, it shapes how we live. If you don't go there and you don't explore it, and you don't get curious about it, and, and there's, oh, there's places to go. I mean, you know, come on, you go to funerals, everything. People are dying around you.

You know, people are dying in war. There's so many that, uh, look what happened in COVID. Mm-hmm. Pull your head out, lean in, get yourself organized. Really ask yourself, what am I afraid of? Have, have conversations. Start the conversations. Just start them. Start somewhere. Do something. Take a step because you can run, but you can't hide.

I love that Bob Marley song. You can run, but you can hide. It'll get you, it'll get you in the end. You can keep on running, but you're gonna have to face it. And the sooner you do that, uh, the sooner you can liberate yourself and the sooner you [00:57:00] can get on with living. And there's that wonderful saying.

Think of death often, then get on with living. Yeah. Think of death often. Then get on with living. Think of it, talk about it. Make a preparation, action it. Then get on with living. Oh, this pops up. Lean in, deal with it. Be responsible. Step up action. It. Get back on with living. It's, it's, it's not that hard.

That's the dance you've gotta do, you know? It's part of being an adult, isn't it? It's part of it. Put your big boy, big girl, big whatever, pants on. Yeah. And get it done. And you know what's really interesting is anyone that I push and I, oh, I gotta hassle everyone. I'm like, really? I'm very pushy. I come back to them all and I say, listen, how do you feel now?

And they all say a lot better. That's the whole point, the liberation. So I've got this three step process, conversation, preparation, liberation, you know, that's it. Yeah. It's not that [00:58:00] hard. You living, knowing that you've got that peace of mind and you don't have to actually always have the answer. You can say, I don't actually know.

And that's okay. But. It could be this, it could be that I'm gonna sit on it and I'm gonna think about it and I'm really confused. But if something happens to me in between, uh, let's just say for me, I'll give you an example. I don't know whether I wanna be burnt cremated or terminated because termination hasn't been legalized here.

So right now it's, it's cremation. But if I haven't updated anything and termination comes in, or if you can get me terminated, which is human composting, do that. So I've got a little bit of if, maybe whatever. And also, sorry guys, I'm so confused. You make the decision, but this is kind of what I prefer and this is what I want.

And if it ends up being cremation, great. Go, go ahead with that plan. That's okay. You, it's okay to be [00:59:00] like that. Do I want, I want a bit of this, I want a bit of that. Or I'm got a bit of Buddhism. I'm an absolute mess in my death prep around the spiritual part. 'cause I don't wanna be buried. In the Jewish ceremony.

I don't want a Jewish part of this, but I want traditional Judaism, and I want this, and I want a bit of Buddhism, and I want a bit of, um, my shamanism, I want all of the parts of me that make up me, but it makes her a really crazy memorial, and who's gonna organize it? I'm like, well, they're gonna really stuff it up, so I've gotta organize it.

So what bit am I gonna pull in that's going to honor each of those aspects of myself? So I'm not perfectly done. In actual fact, I, I'm a bit of a mess, but not in the practical sense. But it's okay. I'm comfortable with that. I'll just have the conversations and say, sorry. It's, I don't know. I'm, I'm here at the moment and it's a work in progress, so if something happens, you know, I've just recorded my eulogy explaining [01:00:00] that.

Catherine Ashton: Right. That's good. I, I, I have it on record now. This is good. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly right. So, so do tell us again, remind us the five, the five Hs. Oh, heart help 

Baci: hope and humor and be honest. Yeah. How beautiful. Be honest. 

Catherine Ashton: And, and what was the, the last three that we also need to do to prepare? Oh, the three steps.

Baci: And I like to say fit. Fit for death. Okay. Because people go, oh, fit because, you know, everybody's obsessed with their health and wellbeing. Yeah. You know, everyone's obsessed with living well. No one wants to deal with living well. Everyone's obsessed with being fit for life, fit for jogging, fit for presenting, fit for relationship, fit for Pilates, fit for drinking.

A green smoothie every day. Uh, fit for life, but no one's fit for death. So if you wanna get fit, there's three steps. Steps to your [01:01:00] fitness. And that is one, talk about it. Two, prepare three. Have fun, liberate. That's when you can just relax and it's really only two steps. Right. But the third one is what you are aiming for.

Yeah, totally. Yeah. And the conversations don't have to be so morbid, you know, you can just have a cup of tea with someone. Oh yeah, I gotta watch this Netflix, you know, series. It's so good. Oh, I cooked. Best meal last night. Da, how do you wanna die? Do you know if you wanna be buried or do you know if you wanna be cremated?

Have you thought about it? Yeah. Okay. Alright. Where do you know where I can take up these genes? Like just slip it in. It doesn't have to be, oh, you know, we're gonna sit and talk about death and dying small, but no, you know, and if you've come out of somewhere at a hospital and you're visiting someone and you've seen a tip and a trick, go, Hey, you know what?

I just went to visit someone and they were dying and they put a salt lamp in the room, or they [01:02:00] had this beautiful, um, essence smell going, and I asked them what it was and it was called release. Oh, that's good. You know, maybe, you know, you should give someone an BL doula. Two hours with an end of life dollar.

Instead of those $80 flowers that you've just thought that are gonna die, everyone starts to, if everyone could start socializing death and dying, we're going to be a lot better in our responses and a lot better equipped to deal with death and dying. Normalizing death and dying. This is where my radical realist comes in.

Fuck that. You kidding me? Normalizing. It's the most normal thing that that is happening is death. That's the most normal thing, and it's, it's guaranteed. Socializing is where we need to step up. We need to socialize, death and dying. And the only way we can do that is through having very normal conversations while we're socializing it and doing what we do already.

You [01:03:00] prepare for work, you get up and you prepare what you're gonna wear. You prepare the food for dinner, you prepare a trip well, you prepare to go on a walk or a hike. You prepare, you're preparing all day. Everything's about freaking preparation. So why is death preparation any different? 

Catherine Ashton: Yeah, why so true.

And I, I love the way in which, uh, it's, it's not about normalizing, it's about socializing. I think that's absolutely spectacular. Thank you. 

Baci: And you're gonna use that now too. You need to socialize it. No. Love it. What are we on this normalizing death? Could it not be the most normal thing, by the way? Like, come on, snap out of it everyone.

It's time to socialize. Get up and socialize. Talk about it. If we don't, we are just gonna end up. I'm sick of having the same conversations from 15 years of age to, to 52. I'm sick of people going, can you [01:04:00] believe what happened? Yes, I can actually. I can't believe that. You can't believe that that's happened.

Yeah. Oh, and I just don't wanna hear another story about an aftermath of death where something shit's gone wrong, or this wasn't organized. Get it together, get it organized. I wanna have conversations so people go, oh, you know what? Thank. God, you told me, or so and so told me this because we did this. And as a result that, thank God my mom organized that because when this happened, I was so grateful because she had all of this planned.

We didn't have to do anything. And, and at the end there was a little note for me, and, and I want these conversations. I wanna be talking about how well we died, how well someone died, how well prepared someone was, and even though it was shit, and death is horrible. There's no such thing as a good death.

Death is not good. Someone is suffering in someone's death. But a well-prepared [01:05:00] death where critical information is given beforehand that you can act on, things are done, where it's smooth, where you're not left in a mess of, of paperwork and admin and being blind and not understanding where anything is or, or finding out stuff.

That should have been dealt with earlier. That a, well, a well prepared death allows us to, to grieve, to be in sorrow, to be present, to understand when someone's wishes are met. And it, it allows for so much honoring Yeah. And reverence at that time. So yeah, I want these sorts of conversations. That's what I want.

I'm over the other ones. They're out the door enough. 

Catherine Ashton: Yeah. Actually, I can't, I can't thank you enough for being a guest today. It's been absolutely spectacular talking to you. I love talking to you too. 

Baci: Thank you for having me, [01:06:00] and I look forward to having you on mine. 

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