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She asked me, she said, when do you
think you'll be ready to let me go?

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And I said.

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Mom, this isn't about me.

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I'm never gonna be ready to let you go.

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You're my mom.

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You're my only mom.

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This is about ... Read More

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She asked me, she said, when do you
think you'll be ready to let me go?

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00:00:06,870 --> 00:00:07,830
And I said.

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00:00:08,655 --> 00:00:10,185
Mom, this isn't about me.

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I'm never gonna be ready to let you go.

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You're my mom.

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You're my only mom.

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This is about you, and I'm not
going to ask you to stay an extra

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day if that's not what you want.

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And if that's not what your body
needs, I want what's best for you.

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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead.

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00:00:29,955 --> 00:00:34,965
A podcast encouraging open conversations
about dying and the death of a loved one.

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00:00:35,475 --> 00:00:40,425
I'm your host, Katherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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00:00:40,425 --> 00:00:45,195
bring your stories of death back to
life because while you may not be ready

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to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't be caught dead.

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Acknowledges the lands of the KO
and Nations and recognizes their

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connection to land, sea, and community.

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We pay our respects to their elders
past, present, and emerging, and

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extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Today I'm speaking with Barb Gering.

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Barb was born in Europe and
raised as an only child.

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She moved with her parents to Australia
in the early 1980s where she has

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built a fulfilling life, rooted in
community compassion and resilience.

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She is happily married and works casually
at a psychology clinic in Sydney's

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eastern suburbs where she finds meaning
in supporting mental health and wellbeing.

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Outside of work, Barb leads an active
lifestyle and finds joy in dancing, going

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to the gym, volunteering, traveling,
reading, listening to music, spending

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time with friends, and sharing good meals.

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Her deep sense of care and commitment
became especially evident in early 2023

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when her mother was diagnosed with cancer.

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During this time, she stepped away
from work to become her mother's

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primary advocate and part-time carer
navigating the complex and emotional

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landscape of treatment decisions.

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Although the treatments did not bring
the hoped for outcomes, the experience

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profoundly shaped her perspective.

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It inspired her growing passion
for education and advocacy around

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voluntary assisted dying, a cause.

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She now champions with heartfelt
belief in the importance of choice

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and dignity at the end of life.

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Thank you so much for
being with us today, Barb.

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Thank you, Catherine.

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Thank you for having me.

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Look, I think that our listeners
can gather probably the conversation

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that we're about to have, and it
involves your experience with your

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mother and when she was diagnosed
with her cancer in early 2023.

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Where would you like to start
telling that story, Barb?

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Well, I think cancer has touched so many
people in the world, and it's a brutal.

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Brutal insidious disease.

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That unfortunately doesn't
play by any rule books, and the

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journey can be such a spectrum.

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Some people get through it.

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The treatment options are available.

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It works well with their bodies and
some people, like my mother, seemed to

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get the short end of the stick where no
matter what, she agreed to the treatment.

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Unfortunately, I. Didn't
seem to be very kind to her.

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So in my opinion, when you're faced
with any challenge like that, it's not

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just about having the options available
for treatment, but I think also having

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options available to you if that treatment
doesn't work the way you would hope.

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So voluntary assisted dying
was certainly something that.

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Our family spoke about even 20
years ago, well before it became

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legislation in New South Wales.

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But I'm just very grateful that the
opportunity was available when it

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became clear that the treatments
weren't going to work for mum.

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And at what point in time did
that become apparent and did you

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start having those conversations?

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So when Mum first got her diagnosis, when
she got the phone call from the specialist

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who did a bunch of tests and they found
a mark on her lung, when she got off

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the phone, the only thing she said to my
father and me were, I don't wanna suffer.

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And that took us down a path that
made it evident that she'll be in the

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fight for as long as she needs to.

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But if we get to a point where there's.

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No benefit really, then that is an avenue
that would absolutely be considered.

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Now, at the time, in early November,
voluntary assisted dying had not yet

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become a legislation in New South Wales,
so mum was prepared for the challenge and.

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Attended all the appointments and
had the biopsy and I'm so sorry.

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I've gone on a tangent and I'm not
even sure I'm answering the question.

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No, you are.

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It is just taking us through that
process of how you went from early

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diagnosis and telling that story because
it is a process that very few people.

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All have experienced.

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And so I think that if you, you know,
do what you are doing and telling us

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how it actually progressed along that
line is really helpful to give some

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people an indication of how you go
through this process and how people

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can learn from what you've experienced.

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Yeah, so they found something on her lung.

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She had her biopsy, then she
was given the big C. Diagnosis.

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The oncologist was incredible
and he made suggestions and the

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suggestion that we originally
went with was chemo and radiation.

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So it was a six, six weeks of pretty
grueling treatment, chemo once a

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week, radiation five days a week.

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She ended up in hospital.

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On week three and four, which delayed the
treatment by a few days because while she

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was in hospital, she couldn't have chemo,
she couldn't have radiation, and she

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lost her hair and she didn't feel great.

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And she, this was a woman who.

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Although 74 was extremely fit, very
active leader, led a healthy lifestyle,

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enjoyed traveling, went to the gym
multiple times a week, sometimes double

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classes, and although her best intention
was to keep active, unfortunately.

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Treatment can be pretty,
pretty grueling and brutal.

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And, and so after the hospital
stays, we restarted the treatment.

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She finished her six weeks,
which had then extended to.

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Probably closer to seven because she spent
a few days in hospital here and there, and

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the oncologist was quite transparent with
her and said, you are going to feel bad

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probably for the next couple of weeks, but
then things will should start to improve.

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And sure enough, she.

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Really didn't feel well after the six
weeks, but instead of getting a little

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bit better, she actually got worse.

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So then she ended up in hospital again.

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So then they took chemo and radiation
off the table, and although the

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cancer seemed to show some signs
of not growing, it was not.

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The desired effect.

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So then they tried another treatment,
immunotherapy specifically, and

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she had one session and that
landed her in hospital again.

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I. More scans, some weeks of not
doing any treatment just so that

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her body could sort of reset.

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And then there was a clinical
trial that came up as an option,

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and we asked a lot of questions
and Mom reluctantly said, yes.

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First 10 days of this clinical trial
that didn't even have a name, it had a

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scientific coded name, but hadn't yet.

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Made it through all the stages
to be part of the stable of

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permanent treatment options.

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She had 10 days where it seemed to work
and then spent 14 days in hospital.

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I. She had all sorts of
terrible reactions, shortness

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of breath, swelling, rash.

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It was pretty scary.

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And there was one particular moment
where she called me in a bit of a

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panic and she said, I can't breathe.

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So even though we were
visiting earlier that day.

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I got a phone call and
she said, where are you?

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And I could hear that
something wasn't right.

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She said, I can't breathe.

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So we ran straight back to the hospital.

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By the time we got into her room,
there was a room full of doctors

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and nurses putting ECG machines,
all sorts of different things.

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She got oxygen and she
thought she was gonna die.

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And that's when I first.

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Really came face to face with the
realization that this was not heading

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in the direction that we wanted.

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So she said absolutely not all along.

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She wanted quality of life
and she didn't wanna suffer.

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00:09:50,115 --> 00:09:52,755
I. So true to form.

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She said, if this is what the
next few weeks or months look

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00:09:58,185 --> 00:09:59,865
like, I'm not interested.

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00:10:00,015 --> 00:10:06,555
And just to help me, Barb, so she'd,
she'd had that initial block of treatment

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and so that is a few months worth
of treatment that she's, she's done,

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00:10:11,145 --> 00:10:13,814
well, six weeks, let's
say up to eight weeks.

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And then she is then part
of this clinical trial.

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So there's a few more weeks
where she's going through that

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process and the reaction to it.

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And then that's when she has
this conversation with you.

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There was one session of immunotherapy
in between the two, but then again

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landed her in hospital and again.

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Had really bad reactions to
the drugs, unfortunately.

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So that's when she said, I'm not, I'm not
really keen to continue the oncologist

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00:10:48,224 --> 00:10:53,520
and it obviously, every time that she went
into hospital, I. She couldn't come out

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and start a new treatment immediately.

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So weeks passed because the body
needed to reset, the body needed to

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00:11:01,199 --> 00:11:03,600
heal, her symptoms needed to ease.

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So there was a waiting game in between,
and unfortunately, each time it was full

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on, it was definitely full on for her.

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It was harrowing, even for us.

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But ultimately this is not about us.

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This is about what the patient
is having to go through.

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And she was losing weight and she was
losing energy, and it was so foreign.

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It was so different to
what she was as a person.

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Before her diagnosis, she danced.

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She was social.

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She really.

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Took life by the proverbial
and really, really made the

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most of, of, all of it really.

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So the oncologist tried one more
treatment, which she agreed to, and not

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the best saying to say that was the nail
on the coffin, but it, it really was.

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That was when mom absolutely said no more.

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00:12:04,095 --> 00:12:08,265
Now, the last time she was
in hospital was December.

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00:12:08,895 --> 00:12:14,714
So November 23rd from memory was when
it came into legislation in New South

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00:12:14,714 --> 00:12:16,785
Wales for voluntary assisted dying.

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00:12:17,505 --> 00:12:22,995
So there were obviously scans
and it became evident that the

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tumors were growing and spreading,
and that was quite confronting.

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00:12:30,224 --> 00:12:34,964
There was a tumor that was actually
growing out, wood, not internally.

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And when you can see the.

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Speed of the growth.

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It actually just adds that extra layer
of, of brutality because you can see it.

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You know, some people are sick and
you, you can't tell that they're sick.

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00:12:50,300 --> 00:12:50,360
Yeah.

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00:12:50,450 --> 00:12:53,210
You could tell that she was sick and I.

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00:12:53,895 --> 00:12:58,815
It would've been mid-December,
coming close to Christmas,

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00:12:58,905 --> 00:13:00,615
and I was sitting with mom.

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00:13:00,885 --> 00:13:02,475
She was sleeping a lot by then.

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00:13:02,475 --> 00:13:03,735
She didn't have a lot of energy.

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00:13:03,735 --> 00:13:05,385
She needed to stop.

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00:13:05,385 --> 00:13:11,055
This was a lady who took pride in her
house, painted her nails cooked to

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00:13:11,055 --> 00:13:18,075
feed her small community, and she was
obviously even struggling with the little

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00:13:18,075 --> 00:13:20,325
things that that brought joy to her.

195
00:13:20,565 --> 00:13:22,305
So it would've been close to.

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00:13:23,025 --> 00:13:24,675
Christmas when I said to her.

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00:13:25,950 --> 00:13:28,440
Mom, do you want me to register you?

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00:13:28,710 --> 00:13:33,840
She had already told us that, that she
was very pro, voluntary, assisted dying.

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00:13:34,050 --> 00:13:38,880
That was something that she wanted to
have as an option, and it was just a

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00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:45,270
case of when do we take that step given
that she said no to further treatment.

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00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,870
And the oncologist was very
honest with her because she

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00:13:48,870 --> 00:13:50,280
said all along, I don't like.

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00:13:50,660 --> 00:13:53,270
Surprises, don't sugarcoat it.

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00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:54,560
Give it to me straight.

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00:13:55,340 --> 00:14:02,030
And the oncologist said, well, if you are
refusing further treatment, the prognosis

206
00:14:02,090 --> 00:14:06,200
is between two months and six months.

207
00:14:07,070 --> 00:14:09,950
And that prognosis came in early December.

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00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,070
So we knew that there was
no getting out of this.

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00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:19,430
And what I thought was.

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00:14:19,965 --> 00:14:24,765
Let's get the paperwork
done while she's still okay.

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00:14:25,215 --> 00:14:29,145
Not okay, but still able
to hold conversations.

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00:14:29,715 --> 00:14:32,235
Able to, sorry, I've

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00:14:33,555 --> 00:14:34,180
No, that's okay.

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00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:34,540
Is.

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00:14:35,625 --> 00:14:40,064
It would be great if you can take
me to that point where the first

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00:14:40,064 --> 00:14:44,655
conversation came about, where it
was about voluntary assisted dying

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00:14:44,655 --> 00:14:46,814
and and how that was initiated.

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00:14:46,814 --> 00:14:51,255
Whether it was from the physician
or from your mom or yourself.

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00:14:51,615 --> 00:14:55,035
It'd be great to sort of talk through
how it first came up in conversation.

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00:14:55,275 --> 00:15:00,975
So mom and dad have spoken and
have been fierce supporters of.

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00:15:01,574 --> 00:15:04,605
What used to be called
euthanasia for decades.

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00:15:05,055 --> 00:15:10,814
That was always something that they
were very, very staunch supporters of.

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00:15:11,655 --> 00:15:19,425
I don't even know who spoke to us and
said it became available, but I think

224
00:15:19,425 --> 00:15:21,105
we probably just followed the news.

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00:15:21,105 --> 00:15:28,305
We knew that it was coming in at some
stage, and when it passed legislation,

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00:15:28,574 --> 00:15:30,165
we knew that that was an option.

227
00:15:30,525 --> 00:15:36,585
We were always a very open family
when it came to talking about

228
00:15:36,645 --> 00:15:41,985
the hard things, and I realized
it can be a very tricky subject.

229
00:15:42,885 --> 00:15:44,835
So I don't know.

230
00:15:44,835 --> 00:15:47,025
Our family never shied away from that.

231
00:15:47,055 --> 00:15:50,775
I mean, we picked out a burial plot.

232
00:15:51,855 --> 00:15:59,535
When mom was still alive, she was a woman
who liked to be in control, and that was

233
00:15:59,835 --> 00:16:02,655
one small thing that she had control over.

234
00:16:02,685 --> 00:16:08,204
So whether it was finding that burial
plot that really, I. Spoke to her

235
00:16:08,714 --> 00:16:13,454
and she, she thought this would be a
nice resting place if I need to go.

236
00:16:13,905 --> 00:16:16,694
This is the place we all went together.

237
00:16:16,694 --> 00:16:18,555
We all chose the place together.

238
00:16:18,555 --> 00:16:24,704
As it turns out, there's enough room there
for two burials and up to four cremation.

239
00:16:25,035 --> 00:16:27,344
So cremains and.

240
00:16:27,675 --> 00:16:29,535
So I know that's where I will be as well.

241
00:16:29,535 --> 00:16:33,885
One day when the time comes, when
it came to the voluntary assisted

242
00:16:33,885 --> 00:16:36,915
dying, as soon as it came into
legislation, it was something that

243
00:16:36,915 --> 00:16:38,865
we just knew was in our back pocket.

244
00:16:39,255 --> 00:16:43,395
It was just a case of what is
the criteria, what does the

245
00:16:43,395 --> 00:16:45,915
assessment look like, what does the.

246
00:16:46,755 --> 00:16:49,935
Final few days, what does that look like?

247
00:16:50,505 --> 00:16:56,205
And I must say this is something that
grief does, is it short circuits the

248
00:16:56,205 --> 00:17:00,435
brain and Yeah, sometimes in the middle
of the conversation it just stops.

249
00:17:00,885 --> 00:17:06,825
But the whole process was actually
very gentle and very seamless.

250
00:17:07,305 --> 00:17:11,805
We were surrounded by people who
were very compassionate, who knew

251
00:17:11,805 --> 00:17:17,235
the process and just made it seem
like you're not doing anything wrong.

252
00:17:17,385 --> 00:17:19,275
It's an option available to you.

253
00:17:19,995 --> 00:17:24,045
So we just always knew that that
was probably going to be the path.

254
00:17:24,495 --> 00:17:28,785
Having known also that even though
that was a choice that mum very

255
00:17:28,785 --> 00:17:33,795
much wanted at any point, she could
back out if she changed her mind.

256
00:17:34,455 --> 00:17:36,165
So when we called.

257
00:17:37,035 --> 00:17:41,385
I called English was not her
first language, and even though

258
00:17:41,385 --> 00:17:45,165
she spoke and understood English,
she spoke with a thick accent.

259
00:17:45,254 --> 00:17:50,055
We didn't want there to be any ambiguity,
so mom and I made the phone call

260
00:17:50,055 --> 00:17:52,965
together, put the phone on speaker.

261
00:17:53,445 --> 00:17:55,215
I explained that I was with my mom.

262
00:17:55,965 --> 00:17:57,795
We had received the prognosis.

263
00:17:58,395 --> 00:18:04,395
We registered her, and they got the
ball rolling to have the assessment.

264
00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:09,930
I liaised with the doctor and the
nurse who were assigned to us.

265
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,540
They were absolutely incredible.

266
00:18:12,930 --> 00:18:16,830
Basically, the process is
there are three assessments.

267
00:18:17,130 --> 00:18:22,020
There's an independent doctor who
comes and assesses to ensure that you

268
00:18:22,020 --> 00:18:27,215
are of sound mind, that you understand
that there's no family pressure.

269
00:18:27,690 --> 00:18:32,850
Obviously they don't want family
dictating that decision because

270
00:18:32,850 --> 00:18:35,280
unfortunately that sometimes does happen.

271
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:38,880
There are opportunities to ask questions.

272
00:18:39,030 --> 00:18:43,650
The doctor who was assigned
to us was truly incredible.

273
00:18:43,740 --> 00:18:45,540
I have nothing but love
and respect for her.

274
00:18:46,919 --> 00:18:51,870
The second assessment is by another
independent doctor, not the same doctor,

275
00:18:51,899 --> 00:18:56,370
because they obviously wanna make sure
that the information that is provided

276
00:18:56,430 --> 00:18:59,820
is real and correct and and honest.

277
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:06,000
And then the third assessment is by the
original doctor now at the original doctor

278
00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:10,620
was actually away for a short period of
time and we were a little bit worried that

279
00:19:10,649 --> 00:19:15,419
mom might take a turn and fortunately.

280
00:19:15,975 --> 00:19:20,864
Mum waited for the doctor to arrive
because she was the administering doctor.

281
00:19:21,554 --> 00:19:27,584
There are two ways that people can utilize
the voluntary assisted dying service

282
00:19:27,584 --> 00:19:31,875
when it is time to take that final step.

283
00:19:32,145 --> 00:19:35,024
One of them is self-administered.

284
00:19:35,504 --> 00:19:38,024
There needs to be somebody
there who is a trusted.

285
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:44,160
Family member or trusted friend
who oversees the process, who is

286
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:45,930
also not a beneficiary of the will.

287
00:19:46,350 --> 00:19:51,000
The other option is going into
hospital and having the procedure

288
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:56,310
done intravenously, and mom
decided on going into hospital.

289
00:19:56,310 --> 00:19:57,505
She didn't wanna die at home.

290
00:19:57,765 --> 00:20:04,800
She didn't want my father to be in the
bed that they had slept in for the last.

291
00:20:05,715 --> 00:20:08,235
I don't know how many years, but
certain, I mean, they've, they've

292
00:20:08,235 --> 00:20:10,035
been together for over 40, so.

293
00:20:10,605 --> 00:20:11,025
Mm-hmm.

294
00:20:11,415 --> 00:20:16,545
And those options are available
to decide when and how and who is

295
00:20:16,545 --> 00:20:19,215
around you when that time comes.

296
00:20:19,365 --> 00:20:23,145
And Barb, could you just take me
back to that initial phone call?

297
00:20:23,145 --> 00:20:24,285
Who did you ring?

298
00:20:24,585 --> 00:20:29,025
There's a voluntary assisted
dying registration team, and

299
00:20:29,055 --> 00:20:31,155
they are very compassionate.

300
00:20:31,530 --> 00:20:32,610
Very informative.

301
00:20:32,610 --> 00:20:37,980
There are certain things they can't
talk about because that is assuming

302
00:20:37,980 --> 00:20:40,740
that the assessment takes place.

303
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,940
And once you've passed the assessments,
not assessments, they're, they're

304
00:20:44,940 --> 00:20:49,680
interviews, but there are certain things
that they're not able to disclose.

305
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,390
But in time, you do get all of the answers
that you need, whether it is the initial.

306
00:20:54,825 --> 00:20:59,895
Time of registration or whether it's
further down the chain as you proceed

307
00:20:59,895 --> 00:21:05,715
through, once all of the information
is collated by those doctors, they will

308
00:21:05,715 --> 00:21:11,054
speak to the oncologist or they will speak
to the specialist or the GP or whoever

309
00:21:11,054 --> 00:21:14,625
needs to be in on the decision making.

310
00:21:15,420 --> 00:21:21,300
To ensure that it is a diagnosis,
that in the case of cancer and certain

311
00:21:21,300 --> 00:21:26,430
other illnesses, you need to have
a prognosis of six months or less.

312
00:21:26,910 --> 00:21:31,230
If it's a motor neuron disease,
then it's a year or less.

313
00:21:31,784 --> 00:21:35,715
So that is the main criteria,
but you need to be of sound mind.

314
00:21:36,165 --> 00:21:40,215
There can't be evidence of
being coerced into the decision.

315
00:21:40,425 --> 00:21:40,514
Mm-hmm.

316
00:21:41,084 --> 00:21:46,125
So it's very stringent and once the
assessments have taken place, that

317
00:21:46,125 --> 00:21:50,655
then goes to a panel of lawyers and
doctors and specialists and all sorts.

318
00:21:50,655 --> 00:21:53,895
I'm not sure how many people are
on that panel, but it's a pretty

319
00:21:54,254 --> 00:21:59,534
diverse panel who assesses all of the
information and they have to approve it.

320
00:21:59,909 --> 00:22:00,240
Yeah.

321
00:22:00,270 --> 00:22:00,659
Okay.

322
00:22:00,780 --> 00:22:08,970
So I wanted mom to have that done
and dusted so that if she decided

323
00:22:08,970 --> 00:22:15,060
that I'm not coping anymore, I don't
wanna continue this, that we weren't

324
00:22:15,060 --> 00:22:18,000
scrambling to get all that paperwork done.

325
00:22:18,345 --> 00:22:23,115
Later on when she was really struggling,
when she was in a lot of discomfort or a

326
00:22:23,115 --> 00:22:27,705
lot of pain, or if the cancer obviously
spreads to certain parts of the body

327
00:22:27,795 --> 00:22:32,535
like the brain, or you have a stroke or
you have anything that stops you from

328
00:22:32,535 --> 00:22:38,505
being able to consent up until that final
minute moment, it's all off the table.

329
00:22:39,030 --> 00:22:44,129
And that was the thing that concerned
Mom the most is she didn't want to be

330
00:22:44,129 --> 00:22:49,080
in a position where that op, where that
option was no longer available to her.

331
00:22:49,470 --> 00:22:55,230
So it's a very fine balancing act,
but once all of the paperwork was

332
00:22:55,230 --> 00:23:00,540
completed and the assessments were
completed, I think we got approval

333
00:23:00,810 --> 00:23:04,170
second week of January or thereabouts.

334
00:23:04,665 --> 00:23:06,105
So we knew it was available.

335
00:23:06,165 --> 00:23:08,175
My birthday's end of January.

336
00:23:08,325 --> 00:23:12,554
We brought my birthday celebrations
forward so that if the proverbial

337
00:23:12,554 --> 00:23:18,105
hit the fan that we still had an
opportunity to go out for a meal

338
00:23:18,105 --> 00:23:20,865
together and be together as a family.

339
00:23:21,524 --> 00:23:28,995
So as it turns out, mum pushed
through until third week of February.

340
00:23:29,325 --> 00:23:31,575
She was on morphine patches.

341
00:23:31,635 --> 00:23:34,035
She was on painkillers.

342
00:23:34,215 --> 00:23:35,295
She was very tired.

343
00:23:35,295 --> 00:23:36,285
She slept a lot.

344
00:23:36,585 --> 00:23:38,475
I sat with her a lot.

345
00:23:38,535 --> 00:23:41,505
We had very honest and open conversations.

346
00:23:42,045 --> 00:23:46,755
Our belief in what happens
after this life wasn't.

347
00:23:47,445 --> 00:23:51,735
Completely aligned, but we had
very respectful conversations

348
00:23:51,735 --> 00:23:56,685
about is she gonna send signs or
are we gonna see each other again?

349
00:23:56,685 --> 00:23:57,885
And things like that.

350
00:23:57,885 --> 00:24:01,935
So we didn't shy away from the hard
conversations because as far as

351
00:24:01,935 --> 00:24:05,825
we were concerned, I. Not talking
about it doesn't mean that you

352
00:24:05,825 --> 00:24:07,445
can brush it under the carpet.

353
00:24:07,745 --> 00:24:11,285
Even the burial plot, you know, mum said
Just because we're buying the burial

354
00:24:11,285 --> 00:24:12,695
plot, it doesn't mean I have to die.

355
00:24:12,695 --> 00:24:16,505
It just means that we're dotting
our i's and crossing our T's so that

356
00:24:16,505 --> 00:24:19,865
when the time comes, that's one less
thing that we have to worry about.

357
00:24:20,105 --> 00:24:22,010
She was a very organized
woman, wasn't she?

358
00:24:22,475 --> 00:24:28,085
She was very, very Virgo, very
organized, didn't like surprises.

359
00:24:28,235 --> 00:24:31,805
Little bit of a control
freak, but beautifully.

360
00:24:32,535 --> 00:24:38,865
So, and she had very honest conversations
about, am I making the right choice?

361
00:24:38,895 --> 00:24:40,845
Is this the easy way out?

362
00:24:41,535 --> 00:24:47,295
And I said to her, you know, mom,
our family is not super religious.

363
00:24:47,295 --> 00:24:51,675
Obviously if you're super religious
or you are part of a community where

364
00:24:52,155 --> 00:24:54,915
this is a big no-no, absolutely.

365
00:24:54,915 --> 00:24:57,435
This is not for everybody, but.

366
00:24:58,125 --> 00:25:00,675
I'll tell you the actual
story that, that I had.

367
00:25:00,705 --> 00:25:03,015
Mom said, am I taking the easy way out?

368
00:25:03,045 --> 00:25:04,425
And I said, you know what, mom?

369
00:25:04,695 --> 00:25:09,495
If you were given a, a crystal ball and
you knew that you just had to suffer for.

370
00:25:10,350 --> 00:25:14,610
Three more months or six more months, but
that you'd come out the other end healed.

371
00:25:14,639 --> 00:25:15,360
Would you take it?

372
00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:16,710
And she said, absolutely.

373
00:25:17,460 --> 00:25:21,480
And I said, well mom, if there is
something beyond this, I really

374
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,679
don't think God is gonna give you
a penthouse in heaven just because

375
00:25:25,679 --> 00:25:28,679
you're suffering longer or just
because you're suffering more.

376
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:34,770
Unfortunately, we don't have a crystal
ball and everything is pointing to

377
00:25:35,129 --> 00:25:37,080
you not getting out of this unscathed.

378
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,510
So all along you've said.

379
00:25:39,825 --> 00:25:42,705
You don't wanna suffer and
you wanna die with dignity.

380
00:25:42,885 --> 00:25:48,705
And this is the only way that you can
reclaim a little bit of control over

381
00:25:48,705 --> 00:25:50,985
something you had no control over.

382
00:25:51,525 --> 00:25:53,625
You had no control over the diagnosis.

383
00:25:53,655 --> 00:25:57,165
You had no control over the way
your body reacted to the treatments.

384
00:25:57,525 --> 00:26:04,605
This is the only form of control where
you get to decide when and how you exit.

385
00:26:04,815 --> 00:26:08,415
And I'm going to honor that because
I promised you that I would.

386
00:26:08,865 --> 00:26:14,534
So I think that hopefully put her
mind at ease when I explained that

387
00:26:14,655 --> 00:26:17,355
I really don't think you get extra
brownie points for suffering.

388
00:26:17,804 --> 00:26:22,875
If there is something beyond where you
know, if God forgives all or if God is

389
00:26:22,965 --> 00:26:28,334
really there to greet everybody, then
God will be there to greet you as well.

390
00:26:28,725 --> 00:26:31,665
And obviously there are some
communities who strongly believe

391
00:26:31,665 --> 00:26:34,304
that it's God's will and maybe it is.

392
00:26:34,949 --> 00:26:40,139
But I would also like to think that if it
is God's will, then perhaps some treatment

393
00:26:40,139 --> 00:26:45,480
would've worked, or perhaps there would've
been some kind of divine intervention,

394
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:52,110
some kind of sign in the last moment that
would have stopped her from doing it.

395
00:26:52,379 --> 00:26:56,754
And even so, when you utilize
voluntary assisted dying, you are

396
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,980
not guaranteed to go immediately.

397
00:26:59,370 --> 00:27:02,070
So it's pretty foolproof, but it's not.

398
00:27:02,445 --> 00:27:05,895
Completely foolproof, and
they were very honest with us.

399
00:27:05,895 --> 00:27:10,845
The doctor was very honest and explained
certain things about option A and

400
00:27:10,845 --> 00:27:15,645
option B, whether you self-administer
or whether you have it intravenously

401
00:27:15,645 --> 00:27:18,765
in a hospital and what was required.

402
00:27:18,765 --> 00:27:25,215
So mom had a PICC line inserted into
her arm because we were worried that

403
00:27:25,695 --> 00:27:28,575
if it came too close and mum wanted to.

404
00:27:29,355 --> 00:27:30,735
Utilize the service.

405
00:27:31,125 --> 00:27:38,504
Having the procedure for the PICC line to
be inserted into her arm might've added

406
00:27:38,655 --> 00:27:41,475
to the distress in those final weeks.

407
00:27:42,045 --> 00:27:45,825
So we really preempted
as much as we could.

408
00:27:46,245 --> 00:27:50,295
And is that like a line that that
stays in there in case they're

409
00:27:50,295 --> 00:27:53,415
concerned about accessing the
veins at a later point when, yes.

410
00:27:53,745 --> 00:27:54,135
Okay.

411
00:27:54,195 --> 00:27:54,435
Yep.

412
00:27:54,495 --> 00:27:56,024
Yeah, thanks for explaining that for me.

413
00:27:56,054 --> 00:27:59,024
No, well you explained, but
you explained it very well.

414
00:27:59,024 --> 00:27:59,865
So Yes.

415
00:28:00,345 --> 00:28:06,764
So mom had a PICC line for over a month,
and when the morphine patches had to

416
00:28:06,764 --> 00:28:11,294
be increased and the palliative care
appointments were more frequent and

417
00:28:11,294 --> 00:28:17,325
the painkillers were every four hours,
and she didn't have energy to really do

418
00:28:17,325 --> 00:28:23,115
anything, she asked me and she said, when
do you think you'll be ready to let me go?

419
00:28:23,669 --> 00:28:27,570
And I said, mom, this isn't about me.

420
00:28:27,570 --> 00:28:29,399
I'm never gonna be ready to let you go.

421
00:28:29,399 --> 00:28:30,090
You're my mom.

422
00:28:30,090 --> 00:28:31,199
You're my only mom.

423
00:28:31,770 --> 00:28:36,810
This is about you, and I'm not
going to ask you to stay an extra

424
00:28:36,810 --> 00:28:39,090
day if that's not what you want.

425
00:28:39,149 --> 00:28:42,840
And if that's not what your body
needs, I want what's best for you.

426
00:28:43,410 --> 00:28:48,240
And it's very hard because obviously
on a selfish level, you want your

427
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:54,150
loved one to stay around for as long as
possible, but watching them suffer or be.

428
00:28:54,570 --> 00:29:01,050
Asleep or in a coma or in any kind of
position where there's no joy, you can't

429
00:29:01,050 --> 00:29:05,370
even have a conversation that was not
something mom wanted, and there was no way

430
00:29:05,370 --> 00:29:07,590
I was going to guilt her into doing that.

431
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:13,740
I can understand why people would beg for
someone to hold on for just an extra day.

432
00:29:13,860 --> 00:29:19,980
I can completely appreciate that, but it
really wasn't about me and I didn't want

433
00:29:19,980 --> 00:29:22,590
to ever look back on this time and think.

434
00:29:22,875 --> 00:29:27,315
She really suffered that extra day just
so that I could have one more with her.

435
00:29:27,495 --> 00:29:31,965
So when I made that phone call, we had
just had a palliative care appointment.

436
00:29:32,265 --> 00:29:37,395
The pain was getting worse,
and I said to mom, do you want

437
00:29:37,395 --> 00:29:38,445
me to make the phone call?

438
00:29:38,775 --> 00:29:39,975
And she said yes.

439
00:29:40,485 --> 00:29:42,105
So I made the phone call.

440
00:29:42,195 --> 00:29:47,145
They rang me back very quickly
and I said, mom's ready?

441
00:29:48,135 --> 00:29:52,425
And they said, okay, well
when approximately when.

442
00:29:53,235 --> 00:29:57,074
Now you have the option of
tomorrow or first available.

443
00:29:57,975 --> 00:30:06,735
You have the option of a week from
now, and I thought if Mum was okay

444
00:30:06,735 --> 00:30:11,955
with it, I wanted to really get my
head around what this all meant.

445
00:30:13,189 --> 00:30:18,584
As it turned out, we were on in
a leap year 2023 was a leap year.

446
00:30:19,425 --> 00:30:20,595
And no.

447
00:30:20,685 --> 00:30:22,155
2024. Hang on.

448
00:30:22,215 --> 00:30:22,665
Where are we?

449
00:30:23,655 --> 00:30:25,935
24. 2024. Yeah.

450
00:30:25,935 --> 00:30:26,745
Was a leap year.

451
00:30:26,745 --> 00:30:28,004
I, I thought that wasn't right.

452
00:30:28,065 --> 00:30:28,395
Sorry.

453
00:30:29,925 --> 00:30:31,065
It was February.

454
00:30:31,065 --> 00:30:33,375
I didn't want it to be February 29.

455
00:30:33,375 --> 00:30:37,335
I didn't want there to be a once
every four year anniversary.

456
00:30:37,395 --> 00:30:37,425
Okay.

457
00:30:37,905 --> 00:30:42,915
And I thought if we have it on a
Friday, it just gives us the weekend

458
00:30:43,245 --> 00:30:46,335
for her to say goodbye to a few more
people if that's what she wants.

459
00:30:46,815 --> 00:30:53,235
It gave us a week to have those last
conversations that we wanted, and

460
00:30:53,235 --> 00:30:55,395
I said, mom, how about next Friday?

461
00:30:55,395 --> 00:30:58,095
It's the 1st of March, and she said, Hmm.

462
00:30:59,130 --> 00:30:59,520
Okay.

463
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,620
So we knew that if anything
happened, we could have always

464
00:31:04,620 --> 00:31:05,880
brought the date forward.

465
00:31:05,940 --> 00:31:09,690
We also knew that if Mom changed her
mind or she wanted just a bit of extra

466
00:31:09,690 --> 00:31:16,020
time, there was no you, you said this
day, no, we don't care that you don't

467
00:31:16,020 --> 00:31:18,575
wanna die yet, you've gotta come in.

468
00:31:19,230 --> 00:31:27,570
So we knew that that date was a tentative
date, but it could change and on.

469
00:31:28,004 --> 00:31:34,004
The Thursday, so the day before we went
into hospital, we went out for lunch.

470
00:31:34,004 --> 00:31:37,875
The four of us mom had an appetite.

471
00:31:38,895 --> 00:31:41,175
We shared a seafood paella.

472
00:31:41,985 --> 00:31:50,865
We shared an Aperol spritz, and there
was a sense of acceptance in her face.

473
00:31:50,865 --> 00:31:52,455
We took some photos.

474
00:31:53,429 --> 00:31:58,260
There's one particular photo where
I look at it frequently and it

475
00:31:58,260 --> 00:32:05,460
just, there's such a calm and peace
on her face, and she hated photos

476
00:32:05,879 --> 00:32:10,274
and it just, she was ready and

477
00:32:13,050 --> 00:32:19,679
yeah, it's, it's, it was a beautiful
memory to have on that day before, I

478
00:32:19,679 --> 00:32:21,990
think for someone making a decision.

479
00:32:22,350 --> 00:32:25,379
Like this, it would be excruciating.

480
00:32:25,620 --> 00:32:26,190
Maybe not.

481
00:32:26,190 --> 00:32:29,940
I don't know, but I would imagine
it would be excruciating to know

482
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,570
this is my last sunset, or this is
the last time I'm putting my head

483
00:32:33,570 --> 00:32:38,400
on my pillow, or this is the last
time I'm going to watch trashy tv.

484
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:43,650
My mom really enjoy trashy TV and
Bolton the beautiful in particular.

485
00:32:43,980 --> 00:32:44,670
Oh, wow.

486
00:32:44,670 --> 00:32:48,090
That really is up there of
the, the trashy TV stakes.

487
00:32:48,090 --> 00:32:49,225
That's, that's a winner.

488
00:32:51,135 --> 00:32:52,995
We, we watched it together.

489
00:32:53,265 --> 00:32:57,555
We used to laugh about how they really
scraped the bottom of the barrel with

490
00:32:57,555 --> 00:33:02,115
their storylines, and Mom said, I can't
believe Eric Forrester is going to

491
00:33:02,115 --> 00:33:07,275
outlive me because he was desperately
unwell and he was in hospital and.

492
00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:10,950
They were trying to save his life
and sure enough, they saved his life.

493
00:33:10,950 --> 00:33:13,500
And she said, I can't believe I'm
not gonna find out what happens.

494
00:33:13,710 --> 00:33:15,000
Oh, that's hilarious.

495
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,290
For anyone who doesn't know bold and
beautiful, uh, you really have to

496
00:33:19,290 --> 00:33:21,780
look that up because it is a treasure.

497
00:33:21,780 --> 00:33:25,980
It is probably the same era of
days of our lives and young and

498
00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:31,320
restless, and it really is a, a, a
soap that I, I still cannot believe

499
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:32,910
is still actually running today.

500
00:33:33,510 --> 00:33:33,870
Yeah.

501
00:33:34,605 --> 00:33:35,355
So, yeah.

502
00:33:35,355 --> 00:33:35,655
Wow.

503
00:33:35,655 --> 00:33:36,495
That was amazing.

504
00:33:36,495 --> 00:33:36,555
Yeah.

505
00:33:36,795 --> 00:33:40,905
So that was, so that was one of her
things is that she thought that Eric

506
00:33:40,905 --> 00:33:42,764
Forrester was going to outlive her.

507
00:33:42,764 --> 00:33:42,825
Yeah.

508
00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:43,840
My goodness.

509
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:44,920
I love that.

510
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,524
And as it turns out, has, has outlived
her because Eric Forrester is still alive

511
00:33:48,524 --> 00:33:52,514
and well, not that I want him to pass,
you know, he's a great character, but.

512
00:33:53,070 --> 00:33:56,400
Nevertheless, you know, and
she was a sucker for maths.

513
00:33:56,460 --> 00:33:58,230
Maths, I mean, not maths.

514
00:33:58,470 --> 00:33:59,100
That was different.

515
00:34:00,060 --> 00:34:00,300
Yes.

516
00:34:00,300 --> 00:34:00,540
Yeah.

517
00:34:00,540 --> 00:34:03,780
So, you know, married at first sight
that, that, that acronym would be.

518
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:04,320
Yes.

519
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:10,590
So, you know, she, she had a very
unique sense of humor, but it was

520
00:34:10,590 --> 00:34:12,840
just beautifully mum in every way.

521
00:34:13,230 --> 00:34:20,100
On the last day, she ran her finger
along something on the, oh gosh.

522
00:34:20,475 --> 00:34:22,665
There goes my, my grief brain again.

523
00:34:23,174 --> 00:34:23,564
Okay.

524
00:34:23,564 --> 00:34:26,594
Let's just forget that I've
even started that part.

525
00:34:26,594 --> 00:34:27,314
I'm so sorry,

526
00:34:28,004 --> 00:34:28,185
Catherine.

527
00:34:28,185 --> 00:34:31,604
No, I, I think it, I think it's
very true though that, that what

528
00:34:31,604 --> 00:34:33,614
you refer to is exactly that.

529
00:34:33,614 --> 00:34:34,754
It's grief brain.

530
00:34:34,784 --> 00:34:40,604
That, that adult fog that, you know, stays
with you after you have had someone die.

531
00:34:40,665 --> 00:34:44,625
And it's ugly and messy and it comes
in all shapes and forms and, and

532
00:34:44,625 --> 00:34:48,464
don't ever apologize for that barb,
because it is what it is, you know?

533
00:34:48,464 --> 00:34:48,674
Yeah.

534
00:34:49,215 --> 00:34:49,784
Thank you.

535
00:34:49,875 --> 00:34:52,034
Thank you for showing me Grace.

536
00:34:52,574 --> 00:34:57,975
But yeah, mom, even in the final day when
we met in the hospital, she was such a

537
00:34:57,975 --> 00:35:03,465
gym goer and her core strength, despite
losing weight, despite not being active,

538
00:35:03,555 --> 00:35:10,245
despite not going to the gym, she was so
ready and she was in such an empowered

539
00:35:10,245 --> 00:35:14,235
mood that one of the last things she did.

540
00:35:14,625 --> 00:35:18,435
Before we called the doctors
in, they were very sorry.

541
00:35:18,585 --> 00:35:24,015
Just to backtrack, the doctors were
very supportive and very understanding.

542
00:35:24,075 --> 00:35:25,725
They showed us to the room.

543
00:35:26,235 --> 00:35:30,225
It was in a wing that I don't even
think had ever been used because it

544
00:35:30,225 --> 00:35:35,535
was a new wing of the hospital and they
said, you take as much time as you need.

545
00:35:35,865 --> 00:35:37,245
You let us know when you are ready.

546
00:35:37,305 --> 00:35:41,535
So we, we talked, I helped
mom get into her pajamas.

547
00:35:41,805 --> 00:35:43,335
I brought a blanket for her.

548
00:35:44,444 --> 00:35:49,694
And one of the last things she did
before we called the doctors in was

549
00:35:49,694 --> 00:35:55,575
she got us to get our phones out
and she did a sit up in the bed and

550
00:35:55,575 --> 00:35:57,944
her core strength was incredible.

551
00:35:58,725 --> 00:36:01,455
She sat up without her legs
flailing all over the place.

552
00:36:01,455 --> 00:36:04,875
I would say most people would not
be able to do a sit up without their

553
00:36:04,875 --> 00:36:06,584
legs flying all over the place.

554
00:36:06,944 --> 00:36:09,975
She sat up and I, I just
said, mom, you're incredible.

555
00:36:10,035 --> 00:36:12,194
Now go back down slowly.

556
00:36:12,555 --> 00:36:17,775
And she went really slowly
back and it exhausted her.

557
00:36:18,225 --> 00:36:19,875
But she had a sense of achievement.

558
00:36:20,654 --> 00:36:20,985
Yeah.

559
00:36:21,105 --> 00:36:26,265
She actually, she even sat up
when she was in ICU in December

560
00:36:26,625 --> 00:36:28,455
after the last treatment.

561
00:36:28,964 --> 00:36:32,805
So she needed something and she
just went and grabbed it and I

562
00:36:32,805 --> 00:36:35,714
thought, how is this woman in ICU.

563
00:36:36,645 --> 00:36:40,095
But doing a sit up, I mean, she didn't
mean to do a sit up, but she needed

564
00:36:40,095 --> 00:36:41,384
to get something from the table.

565
00:36:41,805 --> 00:36:46,695
So my mom was fiery and walked
to the beat of her own drum.

566
00:36:47,505 --> 00:36:51,884
But yeah, we, we took that video
and it was really special and we

567
00:36:51,884 --> 00:36:55,065
hugged and we said, I love you.

568
00:36:55,215 --> 00:36:57,285
And then I said.

569
00:36:58,020 --> 00:37:00,360
You tell me when you are
ready and she said, I'm ready.

570
00:37:01,170 --> 00:37:07,710
I went out, I got the doctor and the
nurses in, and she hugged the, the doctor.

571
00:37:08,220 --> 00:37:13,830
They really built a beautiful relationship
in that it was a, obviously a business

572
00:37:13,830 --> 00:37:18,750
relationship and yet there was nothing
but humanity and just compassion.

573
00:37:18,750 --> 00:37:22,560
And, and she knew that she was
helping my mother and, and my mom

574
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:24,390
had nothing but appreciation for her.

575
00:37:25,755 --> 00:37:30,525
And they asked, are you aware of
what will happen if you consent?

576
00:37:30,675 --> 00:37:31,875
And she said, yes.

577
00:37:31,935 --> 00:37:35,415
And then they said, and do
you still wish to proceed?

578
00:37:36,225 --> 00:37:40,575
Now, even at that point, if Mom
had said, I'm actually not ready,

579
00:37:41,265 --> 00:37:46,575
or, no, I've had second thoughts,
or I want it later this afternoon,

580
00:37:47,595 --> 00:37:48,750
there would've been no judgment.

581
00:37:49,635 --> 00:37:51,795
They would have honored her request.

582
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:57,690
She could have gone home, she could have
walked out of the hospital, and that is

583
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:06,150
the part that I just, I'm so grateful that
there wasn't any sort of pressure on her.

584
00:38:06,779 --> 00:38:11,130
They were there to empower her
on the choice that she made.

585
00:38:11,759 --> 00:38:16,049
And the way I see it when people
have said, I don't know how you

586
00:38:16,049 --> 00:38:19,620
did it, and I don't know how
someone can want to do this.

587
00:38:20,910 --> 00:38:23,850
I've said, look, it's not for
everybody, but the way I see it,

588
00:38:24,750 --> 00:38:26,190
it's like having a parachute.

589
00:38:26,850 --> 00:38:30,120
If you're gonna throw yourself out of a
plane, or, well, in this case you didn't

590
00:38:30,210 --> 00:38:33,840
want to throw yourself out of a plane,
but if you're falling out of a plane, you

591
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,440
have the choice to pull that rip cord and
you get to decide when you pull that rip

592
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:44,760
cord, and it just makes the last part a
little bit more gentle and not free fall.

593
00:38:45,570 --> 00:38:46,230
So.

594
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,290
It's not for everybody, but it
was definitely for my mother,

595
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:54,960
and we held her hand when she
said that she wanted to proceed.

596
00:38:55,170 --> 00:38:57,570
Dad held one hand, I held the other.

597
00:38:58,110 --> 00:39:06,420
My husband was next to me, and honestly,
it was the most dignified, gentle,

598
00:39:07,500 --> 00:39:12,540
beautiful transition I could have
ever wished for anybody to go through.

599
00:39:13,125 --> 00:39:16,875
And I definitely don't have
regrets advocating for my

600
00:39:16,875 --> 00:39:19,214
mother and honoring her wish.

601
00:39:19,725 --> 00:39:27,345
I think when grief strikes and I'm really
sad that I don't have her earth side and

602
00:39:27,345 --> 00:39:29,535
I can't ring her and I can't speak to her.

603
00:39:30,734 --> 00:39:36,615
One of the things that genuinely
keeps me strong is the knowledge

604
00:39:36,674 --> 00:39:39,254
that my mother regained control.

605
00:39:40,035 --> 00:39:44,895
Over something she had no control
over and that she really did pass

606
00:39:44,895 --> 00:39:51,464
with dignity and in such a gentle
way that it was not traumatic for us.

607
00:39:51,495 --> 00:39:55,335
I mean, it's always traumatic losing
someone that you love, but it took

608
00:39:55,335 --> 00:39:59,024
that extra level of real trauma.

609
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,424
I was there when my grandfather
took his last breath.

610
00:40:01,964 --> 00:40:08,865
I've seen active dying when one of my
friend's mothers was in the last stages.

611
00:40:09,615 --> 00:40:14,145
You close your eyes and you have
flashbacks, and I wouldn't wish that on

612
00:40:14,145 --> 00:40:18,555
anybody that didn't want it, both for
the person who's suffering and for the.

613
00:40:19,290 --> 00:40:20,819
People who are left behind.

614
00:40:21,569 --> 00:40:26,250
It is a good phrase that you use there
in relation to the fact that active

615
00:40:26,250 --> 00:40:32,100
dying 'cause it is, it can be that very
much that that process of being active.

616
00:40:32,819 --> 00:40:37,950
So I I, I do have a, have some images
that are evoked when you say that,

617
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:39,720
and that is a good term to use.

618
00:40:40,049 --> 00:40:43,980
Another term that I loved that you just
used there and Barb was earth side.

619
00:40:44,730 --> 00:40:46,440
I think that's a beautiful way.

620
00:40:46,830 --> 00:40:51,180
To recall, you know, that
she is no longer earth side.

621
00:40:51,180 --> 00:40:51,750
I like that.

622
00:40:51,750 --> 00:40:53,100
I haven't heard that one before.

623
00:40:53,370 --> 00:40:53,580
Oh yeah.

624
00:40:53,580 --> 00:40:54,810
I think that's really beautiful.

625
00:40:55,169 --> 00:41:00,834
And so it seems to me that
through the process you've had.

626
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:07,710
Numerous people support you along the
way, and it seems that because she

627
00:41:07,740 --> 00:41:12,180
had that diagnosis of having the life
limiting illness, that then you also

628
00:41:12,180 --> 00:41:14,580
got the palliative care team involved.

629
00:41:14,585 --> 00:41:14,825
Yeah.

630
00:41:15,090 --> 00:41:18,810
And can you tell me a little bit about,
from your experience about how you

631
00:41:18,810 --> 00:41:23,820
worked in with the palliative care
team and then also when the voluntary

632
00:41:23,820 --> 00:41:27,630
assisted dying team got involved
and, and how that worked and how you

633
00:41:27,630 --> 00:41:29,460
navigated that from your perspective?

634
00:41:30,015 --> 00:41:34,935
So the palliative care team that
were assigned to mum was actually

635
00:41:34,935 --> 00:41:42,255
part of a religious hospital, so
there was a little bit of tension.

636
00:41:42,315 --> 00:41:43,605
Would you use the word tension?

637
00:41:43,875 --> 00:41:48,944
Well, they made it very clear that we
would not have been able to use the

638
00:41:48,944 --> 00:41:52,515
voluntary assisted dying in house.

639
00:41:52,860 --> 00:41:58,050
In the palliative care hospice
side of the organizational building

640
00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:02,970
and that we would have had to go
down the public hospital path.

641
00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:05,430
We didn't have to organize any of that.

642
00:42:06,090 --> 00:42:11,820
Thankfully, the voluntary assisted
dying team organized all of the red

643
00:42:11,820 --> 00:42:16,650
table of the paperwork, everything
associated with that, and the.

644
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:23,490
The doctor assigned to mum, my
understanding was that she was quite

645
00:42:23,490 --> 00:42:29,040
religious, so I was extremely grateful
and my mum was extremely grateful

646
00:42:29,220 --> 00:42:36,600
that when Mum decided to utilize the
service, that there was a mutual respect,

647
00:42:36,870 --> 00:42:42,180
that we understood that that was not
aligned with her, and yet she wished us

648
00:42:42,180 --> 00:42:46,050
well and she didn't stand in the way.

649
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:51,150
And didn't try to impose
her beliefs on us.

650
00:42:51,630 --> 00:42:57,780
Now, there are instances where the
GP may be very religious or the

651
00:42:57,780 --> 00:43:03,960
specialist or the oncologist may be
very religious and may decide that

652
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:08,040
they don't want to sign a document or.

653
00:43:08,939 --> 00:43:13,290
Engage with any, any doctor related
to the voluntary assisted dying

654
00:43:13,290 --> 00:43:17,399
team because it is not aligned with
them, and we have to respect that.

655
00:43:17,459 --> 00:43:18,569
That's their choice.

656
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:24,899
But I would like to think that most people
in the medical profession when it comes

657
00:43:24,899 --> 00:43:32,370
to not being able to get out of this,
to have the clarity and compassion to

658
00:43:32,370 --> 00:43:36,419
say, even though it's not for me, and
I wouldn't want my family to choose it.

659
00:43:37,439 --> 00:43:41,700
I will respect the wishes of the
person who is going through this.

660
00:43:42,660 --> 00:43:45,419
Some doctors may, but not everybody does.

661
00:43:45,629 --> 00:43:50,730
I think you described it really well when
you were talking about the, the final day

662
00:43:50,759 --> 00:43:54,000
with your mom and it was the humanity.

663
00:43:54,330 --> 00:43:59,339
And I think that that's the thing
that, that the life cycle of death

664
00:43:59,339 --> 00:44:04,020
and birth bring, regardless of
what, where you sit on the religious

665
00:44:04,020 --> 00:44:06,240
spectrum, it is the humanity.

666
00:44:06,870 --> 00:44:11,340
That it brings and that, that it
comes down to, if you don't mind me

667
00:44:11,340 --> 00:44:17,130
asking, but we shared when we weren't
recording that you had been through

668
00:44:17,190 --> 00:44:23,910
a pilot program with Grief Line that
specifically focuses on grief for the

669
00:44:23,910 --> 00:44:28,620
families of those who have gone through
the voluntary assisted dying process.

670
00:44:29,130 --> 00:44:31,770
Do you mind talking a
little bit about that, Barb?

671
00:44:31,825 --> 00:44:35,875
Because it is a whole different
range of emotions, isn't it?

672
00:44:35,904 --> 00:44:37,225
That you experience?

673
00:44:37,645 --> 00:44:38,515
Absolutely.

674
00:44:38,995 --> 00:44:44,904
I was nominated to be part of the
pilot program by one of the VAD nurses,

675
00:44:44,904 --> 00:44:50,214
the VAD nurses, and I'm very, very
grateful that he put my name forward.

676
00:44:50,820 --> 00:44:53,250
And it was a very intimate group.

677
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:59,340
I dunno if it was super intimate because
it just works better with two facilitators

678
00:44:59,340 --> 00:45:01,890
and four people, or five people.

679
00:45:02,250 --> 00:45:05,820
Or if it was just that there weren't
that many people who had signed up.

680
00:45:06,330 --> 00:45:11,174
But I. When it comes to losing someone
to VAD, and especially because there's

681
00:45:11,174 --> 00:45:17,595
so many questions and sometimes a
stigma attached to that choice, that

682
00:45:17,805 --> 00:45:20,055
it's a very different kind of grief.

683
00:45:20,085 --> 00:45:23,865
There's some, I guess the best way
to describe it is there's a duality.

684
00:45:24,255 --> 00:45:29,715
There's the loss of a loved one,
but there's also a sense of.

685
00:45:30,060 --> 00:45:31,590
They went on their terms.

686
00:45:31,590 --> 00:45:35,460
It was a very, very difficult
decision that they made.

687
00:45:35,910 --> 00:45:43,950
But there was a level of regaining some
kind of hold or control of the, the

688
00:45:43,950 --> 00:45:47,220
decision of when was the time to go.

689
00:45:47,670 --> 00:45:54,870
Mum probably could have waited a few more
weeks or a few more months maybe, but it

690
00:45:54,870 --> 00:45:58,440
was evident in the way that she was that.

691
00:45:58,785 --> 00:46:03,735
Things were getting bad and she
was desperately worried that the

692
00:46:04,065 --> 00:46:05,865
cancer might spread to her brain.

693
00:46:06,765 --> 00:46:10,575
Or, or that something would stop
her from having that opportunity.

694
00:46:10,575 --> 00:46:15,765
So that's why it's a very fine
balance of, is it time to go yet or

695
00:46:15,765 --> 00:46:18,825
am I still okay for one more day?

696
00:46:18,825 --> 00:46:19,605
One more week.

697
00:46:19,665 --> 00:46:20,565
One more dinner.

698
00:46:20,565 --> 00:46:21,555
One more catch up.

699
00:46:22,125 --> 00:46:25,875
So this brief group, it was
a collaboration with Grief

700
00:46:25,875 --> 00:46:27,410
Line and Dying with Dignity.

701
00:46:27,970 --> 00:46:30,820
And the facilitators were incredible.

702
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:32,710
We were able to connect.

703
00:46:32,860 --> 00:46:37,540
One of my very dear friends with somebody
who I met, actually, there are two

704
00:46:37,540 --> 00:46:42,310
girls who I keep in regular contact
with, but they've become dear friends,

705
00:46:42,340 --> 00:46:47,950
and there's a different layer of grief
with someone who utilizes the service.

706
00:46:48,009 --> 00:46:49,360
And there's an understanding.

707
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:50,800
I don't have to explain it.

708
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:53,290
I mean, I'm always happy
to explain it and I will.

709
00:46:53,890 --> 00:46:55,509
I'm so fiercely.

710
00:46:56,070 --> 00:47:00,600
Protective of my mother's choice,
and I'm such a staunch advocate

711
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:04,350
of having the right to choose
and having this as an option.

712
00:47:05,009 --> 00:47:10,440
So I will talk to anybody and I will
let them have their own opinion.

713
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:15,750
I don't need to convert anybody, but
my mother's memory is something that I

714
00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:20,549
will protect, and I don't need to have
that conversation with these girls.

715
00:47:20,759 --> 00:47:21,205
They get it.

716
00:47:21,870 --> 00:47:25,020
Because their loved one
went through cancer as well.

717
00:47:25,020 --> 00:47:30,540
As it turns out, one of the participants
lost someone to motor neuron disease,

718
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:36,180
which is differently debilitating, but I
don't have to explain that extra layer.

719
00:47:36,180 --> 00:47:39,645
I. And I don't know how the pilot
program is going, although I am still

720
00:47:39,645 --> 00:47:41,235
in touch with one of the facilitators.

721
00:47:41,235 --> 00:47:46,154
I probably should check in, but I
dunno how, how frequently they do it.

722
00:47:46,154 --> 00:47:50,205
But ours was very much a pilot program
and it was six weeks, and it was

723
00:47:50,205 --> 00:47:57,585
really, really very helpful at the very
early stages of having just lost mom.

724
00:47:57,944 --> 00:48:00,015
So I'm grateful for the opportunity.

725
00:48:00,405 --> 00:48:05,775
And we will actually put a link in the
show notes so people can actually see

726
00:48:05,775 --> 00:48:10,335
the workshops at Grief Line offer in
relation to that and those specific

727
00:48:10,395 --> 00:48:12,615
ones around voluntary assisted dying.

728
00:48:13,155 --> 00:48:15,525
Thank you so much for your,
your thoughts on that, Barb.

729
00:48:15,525 --> 00:48:16,545
I really appreciate it.

730
00:48:17,745 --> 00:48:19,515
What do you think Barb has been?

731
00:48:20,190 --> 00:48:24,630
The thing, has there been one catalyst
or one particular moment that you think,

732
00:48:24,660 --> 00:48:29,310
this is why I need to tell people,
this is why I wanna become an advocate.

733
00:48:29,850 --> 00:48:32,310
What has been the thing that
you can put it down to that that

734
00:48:32,310 --> 00:48:34,920
motivates you now to tell your story?

735
00:48:36,060 --> 00:48:44,250
I've, in many aspects, x almost
always been pro-choice, whether it's.

736
00:48:45,270 --> 00:48:46,980
Anything to do with your own body.

737
00:48:47,190 --> 00:48:52,350
I think there needs to be autonomy and
you need to have an option, and it's

738
00:48:52,350 --> 00:48:59,040
certainly not something that needs to
be forced down anybody's throat, but I

739
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:05,220
think we've come a long way in certain
areas, and this is just one of the ways,

740
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:10,020
I mean, I thought it was absolutely
incredible that New South Wales was the

741
00:49:10,020 --> 00:49:12,300
last state to bring in the legislation.

742
00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:14,370
Or at least that's my understanding.

743
00:49:14,790 --> 00:49:22,410
I'm really surprised that this wasn't
made legal earlier, but I'm just fierce.

744
00:49:22,470 --> 00:49:30,630
I'm a fierce advocate for pro-choice
and having that as option eight,

745
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:32,580
even if it's the eighth in the queue.

746
00:49:33,330 --> 00:49:38,760
Just having that option there I
think is really important because

747
00:49:39,750 --> 00:49:42,210
you know, people like their food.

748
00:49:42,555 --> 00:49:49,485
In a varied spectrum of of flavors,
why is this not something that

749
00:49:49,635 --> 00:49:53,175
someone can choose to incorporate?

750
00:49:53,475 --> 00:49:58,875
Especially if you know that the
end is going to be really hard

751
00:49:59,715 --> 00:50:02,205
on the patient and on the family?

752
00:50:02,745 --> 00:50:03,825
Why not offer it?

753
00:50:04,665 --> 00:50:05,595
It's not for everybody.

754
00:50:05,745 --> 00:50:07,185
Yeah, that's okay.

755
00:50:07,665 --> 00:50:10,845
And what would you say to
someone who's listening?

756
00:50:11,505 --> 00:50:16,065
What would you sort of be the, the
takeaway advice or the takeaway piece

757
00:50:16,065 --> 00:50:20,924
of information you'd like them to
remember from your story and, and you

758
00:50:20,924 --> 00:50:22,424
telling your story about your mom?

759
00:50:22,964 --> 00:50:31,005
I think ultimately having the
opportunity to decide the final moments.

760
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:37,799
And I mean, some people prepay their
funeral because they want, I mean,

761
00:50:37,799 --> 00:50:41,190
some people do it for different
reasons and they may not wanna put

762
00:50:41,190 --> 00:50:46,890
the burden on the family, but I think
this also potentially takes the burden

763
00:50:46,890 --> 00:50:52,350
off the family of when do we turn
off the life support or when do we.

764
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:54,210
Yeah, sorry.

765
00:50:54,210 --> 00:50:56,580
It's, it's done that thing again.

766
00:50:57,810 --> 00:51:02,520
Oh, I, I think that, I think it's
probably, you know, a, a good way

767
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:07,050
to way to say it, that sometimes
that may be the difference of the

768
00:51:07,050 --> 00:51:08,490
decision that needs to be made.

769
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:09,210
Yeah.

770
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:16,080
I, I don't think anyone is getting
out of this life unscathed, so.

771
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:22,410
Doing it in a way that aligns with
your wishes, I think if possible,

772
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,320
obviously, is just really important.

773
00:51:25,830 --> 00:51:28,920
Not everyone gets the choice,
but if you've got the choice.

774
00:51:29,475 --> 00:51:30,315
I think it's important.

775
00:51:30,645 --> 00:51:36,825
So it goes without saying that this
choice is very highly personal and

776
00:51:36,825 --> 00:51:41,235
some people may want to talk and get
advice from lots of different people,

777
00:51:41,235 --> 00:51:45,795
and some people would, you know, want
to keep it quite private because there

778
00:51:45,795 --> 00:51:52,005
is still a stigma attached to making
this decision and they consider it to be

779
00:51:52,095 --> 00:51:55,215
maybe somewhat hand in hand with suicide.

780
00:51:55,680 --> 00:52:04,200
Anything like that, which it absolutely
isn't, but Mom was quite private

781
00:52:04,710 --> 00:52:10,950
when it came to disclosing the choice
and the timeline with her friends.

782
00:52:11,100 --> 00:52:15,510
She was very forthcoming with
the conversations that we had at

783
00:52:15,510 --> 00:52:21,510
home with my father and you know,
just the nuclear family, but.

784
00:52:22,830 --> 00:52:26,370
She said that once it had
happened, she was a little bit

785
00:52:26,370 --> 00:52:27,900
worried about the narrative.

786
00:52:28,290 --> 00:52:34,260
And I said to my mom at the funeral,
I'm going to tell everybody at the same

787
00:52:34,260 --> 00:52:40,050
time in the same words, you know, what
your choice was, why it was your choice.

788
00:52:40,110 --> 00:52:46,290
And one of the things that I said, because
not everybody can quite grasp why someone

789
00:52:46,290 --> 00:52:52,410
would come up with this decision, and the
metaphor that I used at the funeral was.

790
00:52:52,965 --> 00:52:55,605
Mom absolutely came to the party.

791
00:52:55,785 --> 00:52:58,995
She just left before the
night, got really messy.

792
00:52:59,370 --> 00:53:04,290
And there was a resounding
gasp, light bulb.

793
00:53:04,530 --> 00:53:05,280
Ah.

794
00:53:05,460 --> 00:53:11,730
'cause almost everybody recognizes the
metaphor of going to a party, enjoying

795
00:53:11,730 --> 00:53:14,010
the night, and sometimes overstaying.

796
00:53:14,010 --> 00:53:18,060
And then you look around and there's
vomit in the corner, or there are people

797
00:53:18,090 --> 00:53:19,710
doing things they shouldn't be doing.

798
00:53:20,070 --> 00:53:22,260
Or you're left with the
mess of cleaning up.

799
00:53:22,830 --> 00:53:25,350
So if I can.

800
00:53:26,595 --> 00:53:30,675
Give people a little bit of an
insight of what that looked like.

801
00:53:30,675 --> 00:53:35,055
Not mainly for mom, but
also for her loved ones.

802
00:53:35,325 --> 00:53:39,585
For the people who were left
behind is she came to the party

803
00:53:39,585 --> 00:53:41,025
in every sense of the word.

804
00:53:41,055 --> 00:53:43,725
She just left before the
night got really messy.

805
00:53:43,935 --> 00:53:44,265
So

806
00:53:44,685 --> 00:53:48,615
I think that that's a really
beautiful way to end our conversation,

807
00:53:48,675 --> 00:53:49,995
and it does come down to.

808
00:53:50,475 --> 00:53:51,285
To choice.

809
00:53:51,705 --> 00:53:56,565
Thank you so much for sharing
the story about your mom and

810
00:53:56,565 --> 00:53:57,524
what you've been through.

811
00:53:57,524 --> 00:53:57,944
So.

812
00:53:58,515 --> 00:53:59,595
Thank you so much, Barb.

813
00:53:59,805 --> 00:54:00,525
Thank you.

814
00:54:00,615 --> 00:54:01,575
Thank you, Catherine.

815
00:54:04,185 --> 00:54:07,605
We hope you enjoyed today's
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816
00:54:07,905 --> 00:54:09,675
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817
00:54:10,425 --> 00:54:14,685
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