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About this episode
Today we’re talking about a revolutionary approach to farewelling our loved ones, pioneered by an extraordinary guest.
Meet Jennifer Briscoe-Hough, the founder and CEO of Tender Funerals Australia. She's been on quite a journey to get to where she is now. She even has had a movie made about her journey!
From her own personal experience with the death of her mother and the shocking costs of traditional funeral services, she was driven to find a solution that not only made sense financially, but also emotionally and spiritually. She talks about how the seed was planted for Tender Funerals, a non-profit franchise model that offers choice, transparency, and affordability.
In our discussion, Jenny shares the story of how Tender Funerals came into existence, the challenges faced along the way, and the beautiful meaning behind the term ‘undertaker'. She also touches on the industrialisation of the funeral business and how Tender Funerals aims to bring back the personal touch often lost in the process. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in understanding more about the funeral industry and looking for a more personalised, meaningful approach to saying goodbye.
Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine
Show notes
Guest Bio
![Podcast Guest - Image](https://criticalinfo.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/jenny-tender-funerals.jpg)
Founder and Chief Executive Officer of Tender Funerals Australia
Jennifer Briscoe-Hough is the Founder and Chief Executive Officer of Tender Funerals Australia. As described on their website; Tender Funerals is a not-for-profit funeral service model offering choice and transparency in delivering personalised meaningful and affordable funerals. Their vision is for all Australians to have access to affordable, meaningful funerals.
Summary
Key takeaways from this episode include:
- Jenny’s personal experience with her mother’s death and how it inspired the creation of Tender Funerals.
- Insights into the funeral industry and how it has evolved over time.
- The unique approach of Tender Funerals, a non-profit franchise model that offers choice, transparency, and affordability.
- The meaning and significance of the term ‘undertaker’.
- The concept of paying for funerals from estates, and the financial challenges many face when dealing with a loved one’s death.
Transcript
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Jenny: The biggest thing I could say is
that honestly being round dead is the
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00:00:07,109 --> 00:00:13,320
biggest connector to life that I've ever
experienced because it does catapult
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00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:18,029
you to the center of life and why
would you not take up that opportunity
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00:00:18,080 --> 00:00:19,380
to have that experience of aliveness.
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00:00:24,090 --> 00:00:27,660
Catherine: Welcome to Don't Be... Read More
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00:00:00,140 --> 00:00:07,100
Jenny: The biggest thing I could say is
that honestly being round dead is the
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00:00:07,109 --> 00:00:13,320
biggest connector to life that I've ever
experienced because it does catapult
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00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:18,029
you to the center of life and why
would you not take up that opportunity
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00:00:18,080 --> 00:00:19,380
to have that experience of aliveness.
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00:00:24,090 --> 00:00:27,660
Catherine: Welcome to Don't Be
Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging
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open conversations about dying
and the death of a loved one.
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I'm your host, Katherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to
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bring your stories of death back to life.
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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.
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00:00:47,449 --> 00:00:50,529
Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin nations
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and recognizes their connection
to land, sea, and community.
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We pay our respects to their elders,
past, present, and emerging, and
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extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First
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Nation peoples around the globe.
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Jennifer Briscoe Hoff is the
founder and chief executive officer
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of Tender Funerals Australia.
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As described on their website, Tender
Funerals is a not for profit funeral
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service model, offering choice and
transparency in delivering personalized,
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meaningful, and affordable funerals.
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Their vision is for all
Australians to have access to
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affordable, meaningful funerals.
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Thank you for joining us, Jenny.
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Jenny: Oh, it's my pleasure, Catherine.
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Thank you for inviting me.
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Catherine: Now tell me, the original
um, tender funerals, Illawarra
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and Sydney, was established in
2016 Port Kembla, New South Wales.
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And it was established by our
community project to provide
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funeral services for those in need.
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What is our community project and
how did the idea for tender funerals
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Jenny: come about?
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Thank you very much.
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So our community project is a
community development organisation
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in Port Kembla, and really it, it
has been, it has been able to develop
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a number of different projects.
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It's like, it's, uh, because,
uh, the team there was very open.
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To new ideas, the board
was very open to new ideas.
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I was the general manager of that
organization and, uh, I think they just
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were quite courageous in the things
that they said yes to over the years.
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And tender funerals was
one of those things.
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And it sort of started as a, uh, it
started because I, when my mother
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died, I was really surprised.
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Shocked by the cost of the funeral and
also by my own response to that process,
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even though I'd been around a lot of
death and death in the past, I'd worked
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at Ronald McDonald House, I'd been a
coordinator of a canteen, I had given,
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uh, many eulogies at many funerals, I
hadn't been and sort of interacted that
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much with the sort of back end of funerals
and with my mother's funeral, I was quite
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surprised and probably, you know, You
know, really it was just one of those
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moments where sort of the worlds collide
and I was in a situation where I was
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working in a very disadvantaged community
and we got a bill for my mother's
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funeral, I think it was for about 11,
000 and we already owned the burial pot.
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Yeah, so we owned the burial pot.
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My sister in law did the flowers.
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We, we had one hearse, we didn't have
a funeral car, it was in a church and
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we, and we still got this, uh, bill and
the funeral company that we used on my
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mother's memorial card, which we designed
and took to the printer and did all that.
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They put their advertising on that.
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So I think at that point I sort of, uh,
woke up a little bit in the process,
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but it was really thinking about.
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We, you know, when somebody dies, if
there's an estate, then the funeral
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can be paid for out of the estate.
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So we didn't pay that 11, 000,
although in some ways we did, it
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was out of my mother's estate.
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But it did occur to me that if you
didn't have an estate, I don't know
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how you would pay that amount of money.
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So I suppose it was really that
I was in this position between
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these sort of worlds, in a way.
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And, uh, so that's how
the idea came about.
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Came about actually, it was just like,
Oh, this maybe we should think about
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doing a not for profit, uh, funeral
service and, and, and the organization
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was really supportive of that and
they wanted to do that, even though
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we didn't really know how to do that.
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So it took another seven years to do after
that, because we really didn't know, it
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was like, oh yeah, how hard can that be?
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Well, um, it was really hard.
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So, so yeah, that's how it happened.
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I think the thing to say about that,
that's, Interesting, though, in terms
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of doing something you've not done
before, or you don't know a lot about.
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In the end, that's a really great
process, because you don't know what
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you don't know, and you also don't
know how it's supposed, how people are
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going to tell you it's supposed to be.
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So we just designed a funeral
service that we thought should exist.
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that we thought we
needed in our community.
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And we didn't really look
at any other funerals.
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You know, we didn't really, I
mean, we did some training, mainly
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overseas, we did some training with
Zenith Borago here in Australia, but
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we didn't do traditional training.
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And so, I don't know, I really can't
tell you why we didn't, except it
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just didn't occur to me to do that.
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So, it was much more like we
followed our noses to develop
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something in collaboration with
people probably who were trying
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to do something for the community.
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Rather than with an industry, so I
think that's probably the important
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thing to say about to anybody who's
embarking on a new venture is that it
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sort of is better in lots of ways to
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go to not necessarily go to
what's already been done.
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Catherine: It's interesting that you
say that because, uh, embarking on that
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little, uh, that journey myself at the
moment, and it is really interesting
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when you have fresh eyes looking at an
industry or a project and, and yeah,
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it's, it's quite, Insightful, really,
what you can discover, because you're,
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you're not coming from, I suppose, the
industry norm or, or that background.
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So, I can certainly relate
to what you're referring to.
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Jenny: Yeah, I think the, I think the
interesting thing about an industry
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is that it, it doesn't just arrive,
it develops in response to things.
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And certainly the funeral industry
developed along a particular line.
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particular line in response to
a societal change, actually.
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So it's understandable where it went
in terms of its development because
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it really developed because people
needed to store and transport bodies.
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That's why it developed.
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So it's not surprising it turned into a,
that sort of logistical focused business.
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Although it is logistical focused in a
way, there's lots of logistics in it, but
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it's because In the past, families and
communities would look after their own
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people, the church, you know, then, you
know, they would keep the person at home,
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they would, the undertaker would come
and transport the body to the cemetery.
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Or the church.
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And so that's sort of
how that all happened.
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And then some things fell away.
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So what fell away was the
care for people at home.
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And so, you know, and, and the
word undertaker is a really
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beautiful word, actually.
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It means to make a promise to make, I
undertake to do this on your behalf.
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So it's a,
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it's quite a beautiful thing for
people to have done for others.
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But then it's about the
industrialization of that.
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is where we sort of lost something.
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So I think, I think that's the other
benefit of not knowing, like, because
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that sort of doesn't make sense the way it
happens until you know why it's like that.
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And then it does make complete sense.
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So anyway, you didn't ask that question.
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So
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Catherine: no, no, that's the, that's
the beauty of these things is that we
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can, we can go wherever we go, Jenny.
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So I don't apologize.
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Okay.
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Just something that, that you mentioned,
which I, I thought was, was interesting
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and obviously, uh, really calls out to
your experience before you started tender
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funerals, is the fact that you, you knew
that you could actually pay for your
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mother's funeral out of your estate.
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And that's something that
a lot of people don't know.
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So it really, it already shows that
you obviously had that, that, uh,
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That sort of knowledge and inclination
before you even started going down
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the path of, of tender funerals.
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Jenny: Let me just say, I probably,
I don't know if I did know, but I
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do, I think most funeral directors
give people that advice that, and you
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know, that advice can be used, you
know, that that advice is what it's
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the one thing that you can access a
bank account for when somebody dies.
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But it also means sometimes
that you might, you know,
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there is money there to spend.
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in that sense.
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And, uh, you know, so it's a
strange sort of, uh, it's not
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really going to cost you anything.
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Doesn't really matter.
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So why don't you do whatever?
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But I don't, I think most,
I don't think I knew that.
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I think the funeral company would have
told my brothers that at the time.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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But I, I, but it is a thing that does help
people in those moments when they don't.
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When they think, Oh, I've got paper that's
been wrong, we don't have the money.
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But some, but truthfully, a lot of
people don't have, there's a lot of
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people in Australia who don't have,
uh, who, who aren't in that situation
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where there's money in the bank.
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Catherine: And that's it, isn't it?
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It relies on actually that cashflow being
there and accessible at that particular
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point when that, that person dies and,
and something that I've, I've quite a few
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times is the fact That we have attended
funerals of four people in the last 12
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months now who had to crowdfund for their
funerals or have friends put in funds
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to, to pay for those services because
there wasn't that cash at that time.
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So, and, and really that's.
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you know, coming back to tender
funerals in the services.
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So you're a not for profit
and, but you operate Tender
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Funerals Australia as franchises.
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So can you explain a little bit about
the social franchise model and, and
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the network that the members agree to?
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Jenny: Yeah, sure.
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So, you know, when we started tender,
uh, After we opened, we immediately had
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people from around the country saying,
well, we want to have a tender too.
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And I was a bit like, well,
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I don't, I'm not sure how to do that.
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And we haven't proven that
this model can work yet.
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So we didn't do it in the first,
we didn't, in that first couple
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of years, we just said, we need
to focus on what we're doing.
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We need to get everything.
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We need to be sure.
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That what we're doing can work
before we do any sort of replication.
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But then after four years,
those, uh, response, those
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requests just kept coming to us.
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And so I had, so we partnered with
Social Ventures Australia and to come up
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with, uh, a way of doing that actually.
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And.
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You know, it was sort of
interesting because I really
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wanted to have a license agreement.
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I was like, can't we just have
like a one page license agreement?
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Anyway, apparently you can't.
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So we, well you can't.
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You can't because in that
license agreement, you couldn't
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protect the business model.
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So there's some things you can do
in a franchise agreement that you
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can't do in a license agreement.
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So we would, that was
the advice we were given.
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So we, and you know, I didn't
particularly like the idea of a franchise.
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I was a bit like, you know, of course I
thought, but McDonald's and cookie cutter.
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So I was a bit like, oh, I, I
wasn't that happy with that.
204
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And so we decided that we would
develop a sort of, there's in
205
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Australia, there's no social franchise
framework, so there's franchise law.
206
00:13:11,250 --> 00:13:14,400
I've got the, the chair of our
board's a lawyer, so I've got
207
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three lawyers on our board.
208
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So the law part, they sort
of, uh, they've got that.
209
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So there's some things you have
to have in a franchise agreement.
210
00:13:25,860 --> 00:13:28,150
Now, I can't tell you off the top
of my head what those things are,
211
00:13:28,150 --> 00:13:29,319
but they've got to be in there.
212
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,480
And so, but there's a whole lot of other
things that don't have to be in there.
213
00:13:35,019 --> 00:13:40,059
So we developed the franchise agreement
in collaboration with the communities
214
00:13:40,059 --> 00:13:43,930
that we were working with to say,
so it was more of a reciprocal.
215
00:13:44,310 --> 00:13:47,950
You know, we all need to share
this information with each other.
216
00:13:48,430 --> 00:13:50,760
You know, we all had to
be happy with the model.
217
00:13:51,020 --> 00:13:53,670
We all, there were things
that we had to agree on.
218
00:13:53,670 --> 00:13:59,650
So there's like 12 non negotiables in
the model and, and the rest of it, people
219
00:13:59,650 --> 00:14:02,649
can, you know, have flexibility with.
220
00:14:02,650 --> 00:14:05,590
And so we decided we
would do it like that.
221
00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:07,890
And it went backwards and
forwards and we developed.
222
00:14:08,329 --> 00:14:12,680
We developed this franchise
model and we also, on top of
223
00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:14,290
that, developed a network model.
224
00:14:14,339 --> 00:14:21,099
So the network, anybody who's in this,
uh, ecosystem belongs to a network and
225
00:14:21,099 --> 00:14:25,279
that network meets, it's just gone to bi
monthly meetings that used to be monthly.
226
00:14:25,749 --> 00:14:30,745
It meets, you know, everyone's committed
to meeting and in that, Network people
227
00:14:30,745 --> 00:14:36,655
share ideas, they, uh, talk about what's
challenging them, they talk, they tell
228
00:14:36,655 --> 00:14:42,574
stories about stuff that's happened, and
they build, and they share their skills.
229
00:14:42,644 --> 00:14:47,594
So the idea of the network is to
build something that's not based in,
230
00:14:47,655 --> 00:14:49,644
that's, it's a strength based network.
231
00:14:49,644 --> 00:14:53,935
So it's, the idea is to build
something that's not dependent on any
232
00:14:54,624 --> 00:15:02,585
one organization or one person or,
um, It's, it's about creating a sort
233
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of a basket that can hold everybody
and that can support everybody.
234
00:15:07,385 --> 00:15:09,255
So that's really the network model.
235
00:15:09,255 --> 00:15:15,865
And that happens, you know, you know,
in those people, people, uh, in the, in
236
00:15:15,865 --> 00:15:17,684
the network, they do support each other.
237
00:15:17,715 --> 00:15:18,954
They talk to each other.
238
00:15:18,975 --> 00:15:19,964
They share ideas.
239
00:15:19,965 --> 00:15:22,425
If someone's done a good funding
application, they put in the
240
00:15:22,425 --> 00:15:25,465
drive and other people can
have a look at it and adapt it.
241
00:15:25,465 --> 00:15:29,145
If someone's done a good brochure,
then They can adapt that.
242
00:15:29,145 --> 00:15:32,465
So it's really about sharing
skills and resources and
243
00:15:32,465 --> 00:15:35,135
knowledge and getting support.
244
00:15:35,535 --> 00:15:35,765
Yeah.
245
00:15:35,765 --> 00:15:39,995
So that's, that answers your
question, but it's, it's a very
246
00:15:40,025 --> 00:15:42,665
organic, it's quite an organic model.
247
00:15:42,695 --> 00:15:47,155
And I'll just say one other thing
about the network is everybody in the
248
00:15:47,315 --> 00:15:49,695
system can attend the network meeting.
249
00:15:49,695 --> 00:15:55,445
So the boards can attend, the working
parties can attend, the managers can
250
00:15:55,445 --> 00:15:57,985
attend, the site leaders can attend, but.
251
00:15:58,315 --> 00:16:00,135
So you can have quite a
lot of people on that call.
252
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,950
There's only one person talking from
each group, so they can text each other
253
00:16:05,950 --> 00:16:09,470
and say, you know, Catherine wants me
to ask this question, but otherwise
254
00:16:09,470 --> 00:16:11,769
it would be impossible to manage that.
255
00:16:11,769 --> 00:16:15,989
So everyone's got a voice, but
the voices come through a person.
256
00:16:16,009 --> 00:16:20,479
I think the other thing to say about
that network is that it's not endless.
257
00:16:20,819 --> 00:16:23,660
Like it won't continually grow.
258
00:16:24,219 --> 00:16:28,449
So I think, you know, I think tender
funerals is a system change model.
259
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:34,579
And, you know, I think probably between
15 and 20 tenders would be enough in the
260
00:16:34,579 --> 00:16:40,179
system to, to still create a relational
model because it's a relational,
261
00:16:40,179 --> 00:16:44,129
not transactional model because any
bigger than that, you lose that.
262
00:16:44,339 --> 00:16:47,030
I think you lose, it becomes too big.
263
00:16:47,260 --> 00:16:50,545
So yeah, that's, it's,
That's the idea of it.
264
00:16:52,225 --> 00:16:55,665
Catherine: And Toi, what, when
you say relational model, as
265
00:16:55,665 --> 00:16:59,035
opposed to a transactional model,
can you just explain that too?
266
00:16:59,284 --> 00:17:02,344
Jenny: I think the thing is, for
us, it's got to be about being in
267
00:17:02,345 --> 00:17:07,085
relationship with each other, with,
and with the system that we're in.
268
00:17:07,565 --> 00:17:13,465
And that it's not necessarily that we
would expect to, uh, it's not about,
269
00:17:13,575 --> 00:17:18,405
that's, it's not, um, it's not for
the, you know, when you, when you
270
00:17:18,415 --> 00:17:20,974
have something that's transactions,
like, what am I going to get?
271
00:17:21,855 --> 00:17:24,355
I'm not going to, you know, I'm going to
give you this, but what am I going to get?
272
00:17:24,765 --> 00:17:28,145
In the tender model, it's much
more about, we're going to build
273
00:17:28,204 --> 00:17:29,845
relationships with each other.
274
00:17:30,385 --> 00:17:32,055
And the model is for.
275
00:17:32,775 --> 00:17:33,985
the system change.
276
00:17:34,145 --> 00:17:37,605
So everybody there understands
when they're in that, we've all
277
00:17:37,625 --> 00:17:39,365
got a common purpose in that.
278
00:17:39,395 --> 00:17:42,845
That's not necessarily about what
I give, I'm going to get back.
279
00:17:42,985 --> 00:17:45,925
It's about what I'm giving to the
system, belongs in the system.
280
00:17:46,995 --> 00:17:47,895
Does that make sense?
281
00:17:48,665 --> 00:17:49,685
Catherine: Yeah, it does.
282
00:17:49,734 --> 00:17:50,265
It does.
283
00:17:50,625 --> 00:17:55,025
And tell me in those early
stages, when you had first set up
284
00:17:55,335 --> 00:17:58,010
the first, um, tender funerals.
285
00:17:58,510 --> 00:18:02,520
What was it in that four years
that made it unique that people
286
00:18:02,530 --> 00:18:05,950
started coming to you going, we
want to do this in our community.
287
00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:08,200
Jenny: What was it that got them excited?
288
00:18:08,599 --> 00:18:12,780
Look, I think what got them excited
originally was the film and the film,
289
00:18:13,189 --> 00:18:17,409
because it was very hard to, I know it was
very hard to fund tender in the beginning.
290
00:18:18,149 --> 00:18:25,210
And, uh, so my best friend,
Lynette Wellworth, who's like a
291
00:18:25,210 --> 00:18:28,859
genius and a visionary artist, she
said, we'll have to make a film.
292
00:18:29,605 --> 00:18:33,104
And I was like, well, I don't
know what that's going to be about
293
00:18:33,185 --> 00:18:36,675
because really nothing's happening,
you know, just be about me getting
294
00:18:36,675 --> 00:18:38,854
rejections from funding applications.
295
00:18:39,124 --> 00:18:44,274
And anyway, she, of course, made this
beautiful, beautiful film called TENJA.
296
00:18:44,635 --> 00:18:49,324
And she said to me, you know, once people
see that, you know, Jane, once people
297
00:18:49,324 --> 00:18:52,404
see this, everyone's going to want one.
298
00:18:52,985 --> 00:18:53,554
And.
299
00:18:54,580 --> 00:18:56,760
That's what I mean, she's
visionary, I was like.
300
00:18:57,290 --> 00:19:02,332
Anyway, so of course that's what
happened, because what tender is
301
00:19:02,332 --> 00:19:05,990
about is our, is our humanity.
302
00:19:07,569 --> 00:19:09,110
And of course, we all have that.
303
00:19:09,370 --> 00:19:12,580
And so, when something speaks
to your humanity, then you.
304
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,430
Notice that something's
missing in the system.
305
00:19:16,450 --> 00:19:18,420
So you, so you want, you want that.
306
00:19:18,850 --> 00:19:23,250
And I think that's, I think
it's not, it's not necessarily
307
00:19:23,859 --> 00:19:25,879
explainable beyond that, actually.
308
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:30,409
I mean, there's the affordability
of it that people want, but there's
309
00:19:30,409 --> 00:19:35,480
the experience of it that people
miss, were missing, I think.
310
00:19:35,540 --> 00:19:38,500
And when they saw that it was, people
didn't know what was possible, but
311
00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:40,090
once they saw what was possible.
312
00:19:40,889 --> 00:19:43,530
Uh, they know, people know what they want.
313
00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:48,319
And I can say that now, even in the,
in the tender model, that, you know,
314
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:54,909
we, in the transparency of it, you
know, we, everybody, everybody is,
315
00:19:54,939 --> 00:19:58,159
you know, everything that happens
in tender is explained to people.
316
00:19:58,189 --> 00:20:01,369
So, you know, it's like, there's a
choice, would you like, this is the
317
00:20:01,379 --> 00:20:04,939
process with, you know, around the
mortuary care, would you like this
318
00:20:05,450 --> 00:20:06,730
mortuary care or not mortuary care?
319
00:20:06,730 --> 00:20:08,149
What's mortuary care?
320
00:20:08,620 --> 00:20:09,450
What does that involve?
321
00:20:09,490 --> 00:20:11,030
And there's an explanation about that.
322
00:20:11,145 --> 00:20:14,315
What that involves, you know, setting
the features, closing the mouth,
323
00:20:14,315 --> 00:20:16,405
closing the eyes, not doing that.
324
00:20:16,585 --> 00:20:20,535
If you, what does that
involve or suturing the mouth?
325
00:20:20,815 --> 00:20:26,745
And people are like, and it's not
like people don't know what they want.
326
00:20:26,865 --> 00:20:29,715
As soon as you say to them,
this is the process, they
327
00:20:29,715 --> 00:20:31,464
say, Oh, you have to do that.
328
00:20:31,845 --> 00:20:33,495
Oh, please don't do that.
329
00:20:35,035 --> 00:20:37,395
Like, it's not like we're stupid.
330
00:20:37,425 --> 00:20:38,524
We know what we want.
331
00:20:38,605 --> 00:20:40,105
And when we know the situation.
332
00:20:40,405 --> 00:20:43,405
So I think, and that's the whole thing.
333
00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:48,320
It hasn't been, it's, it hasn't been,
it's not that complicated actually.
334
00:20:48,889 --> 00:20:55,050
It's actually pretty simple that, uh,
you know, originally when we did this, we
335
00:20:55,050 --> 00:21:00,209
did a, uh, action research project with
TAFE, TAFE down here, TAFE Illawarra.
336
00:21:00,210 --> 00:21:04,390
And, you know, we've got all people,
the students got groups together and
337
00:21:04,390 --> 00:21:08,520
they asked questions and what came out
of that report was very interesting.
338
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:09,800
What they said was that they didn't.
339
00:21:10,115 --> 00:21:16,225
necessarily have a problem or
weren't necessarily dissatisfied
340
00:21:16,225 --> 00:21:18,614
with the funeral industry until
they knew what was possible.
341
00:21:20,965 --> 00:21:25,084
And once they knew what was
possible, they knew that they
342
00:21:25,084 --> 00:21:26,705
wanted to make their own decisions.
343
00:21:28,254 --> 00:21:31,574
So that's what was
interesting for me about that.
344
00:21:32,345 --> 00:21:36,625
And there were other things that were
like things like the process, you
345
00:21:36,625 --> 00:21:40,945
know, that you wouldn't about, you
know, slowing everything down, that
346
00:21:40,945 --> 00:21:44,895
you don't need to, you know, actually
have it all done and dusted in a week.
347
00:21:45,085 --> 00:21:46,825
You can take your time.
348
00:21:47,385 --> 00:21:52,045
And many times people have said to us
in that research, you know, how they
349
00:21:52,055 --> 00:21:57,865
would have, they were so, uh, funeral
directors had really, uh, in the
350
00:21:57,865 --> 00:22:01,244
industry had really been supportive
because they were really upset, you
351
00:22:01,244 --> 00:22:02,795
know, when they were talking to them.
352
00:22:03,475 --> 00:22:06,615
And then, you know, we would ask the
question, like how soon after that person
353
00:22:06,615 --> 00:22:07,945
died, did you speak to a funeral director?
354
00:22:07,955 --> 00:22:08,915
They'd say two hours.
355
00:22:08,915 --> 00:22:13,194
And then you'd say, well, what about.
356
00:22:13,425 --> 00:22:20,505
If you hadn't, if you just said, I want to
speak to you in two days, and most of them
357
00:22:20,505 --> 00:22:22,255
were like, oh, that would have been fine.
358
00:22:22,255 --> 00:22:22,965
I would have been fine.
359
00:22:24,845 --> 00:22:30,935
So there's, there's, and I don't think
that's conscious of the, of the industry.
360
00:22:30,965 --> 00:22:34,705
I just think it's something that,
that what we know is when something
361
00:22:34,705 --> 00:22:37,495
happens, we're in a different
state and that's a good state.
362
00:22:37,495 --> 00:22:38,965
We should be in that state.
363
00:22:39,065 --> 00:22:42,425
We should let ourselves have those
feelings, but that doesn't mean we
364
00:22:42,425 --> 00:22:45,955
don't automatically go and organize
it, do it, organize an event.
365
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,590
In that moment, you know, we
might want to, it's, it's, we
366
00:22:50,590 --> 00:22:54,060
might want to stretch it out and
let every, and, and let ourselves
367
00:22:54,060 --> 00:22:56,250
experience what's happening for us.
368
00:22:56,330 --> 00:22:58,789
Because the other thing people
do sometimes is when someone's
369
00:22:58,789 --> 00:23:04,069
dying, they might ring us and
say, you know, mom's dying.
370
00:23:04,079 --> 00:23:05,149
She's going to die.
371
00:23:05,810 --> 00:23:08,090
You know, we've been told she's going
to die in the next couple of hours.
372
00:23:09,780 --> 00:23:12,360
You don't need to have this
phone call now, because.
373
00:23:14,035 --> 00:23:16,825
You could have this phone call
later, go and be with your mom.
374
00:23:17,435 --> 00:23:17,705
You know?
375
00:23:17,735 --> 00:23:21,605
'cause this is precious time to
have, so sometimes people wanna jump
376
00:23:21,605 --> 00:23:27,795
over that dying to the funeral and
that's fine if that's, if people
377
00:23:27,795 --> 00:23:29,265
say, no, I wanna do this now.
378
00:23:29,355 --> 00:23:29,805
Sure.
379
00:23:29,865 --> 00:23:32,685
But it's good to be able to say,
you don't have to do it now.
380
00:23:32,715 --> 00:23:35,685
What's, what's gonna be the
best thing to do in this moment?
381
00:23:35,685 --> 00:23:38,055
That's not about us getting your business.
382
00:23:38,055 --> 00:23:40,665
You know, it's about you
having your experience.
383
00:23:40,755 --> 00:23:42,795
So it's all of those little things.
384
00:23:42,795 --> 00:23:43,875
It's not any one thing.
385
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:44,895
It's like, it's like.
386
00:23:46,005 --> 00:23:48,325
Lots of little things
that make a difference.
387
00:23:48,355 --> 00:23:50,375
I can't even remember the
question you asked me, Catherine.
388
00:23:50,375 --> 00:23:50,845
Sorry.
389
00:23:51,735 --> 00:23:52,835
Catherine: No, no, no, that's okay.
390
00:23:52,835 --> 00:23:55,385
That, that's my job to
keep us on, on task.
391
00:23:55,524 --> 00:24:00,264
It's really insightful what you were
saying in relation to, uh, what makes you
392
00:24:00,274 --> 00:24:06,184
unique and from the different explanations
that you're providing me is the fact
393
00:24:06,185 --> 00:24:11,355
that it seems to always come back to
providing people with the education
394
00:24:11,355 --> 00:24:13,475
so they can make informed choices.
395
00:24:14,665 --> 00:24:18,775
And that seems to be very much the
foundation of what you seem to be
396
00:24:18,775 --> 00:24:21,195
doing at every stage of the process.
397
00:24:21,375 --> 00:24:22,445
Jenny: Yeah, I think that's true.
398
00:24:22,465 --> 00:24:26,754
I think the other part of that is to
provide a model of continual choice.
399
00:24:27,394 --> 00:24:30,084
So, you can make this choice here.
400
00:24:30,515 --> 00:24:34,705
And you can change your mind,
and that often happens around
401
00:24:35,105 --> 00:24:36,765
the wash and dress of somebody.
402
00:24:36,775 --> 00:24:38,715
You know, it's like, do you
want, would you like to wash?
403
00:24:38,735 --> 00:24:41,545
And, you know, often people go,
no, I don't need to do that.
404
00:24:41,545 --> 00:24:46,685
And then maybe somebody will bring up,
say, actually, I thought about that.
405
00:24:47,285 --> 00:24:48,814
And I really do want to do that.
406
00:24:49,095 --> 00:24:54,545
So it's that thing about, You know, and
that is, and that creates a challenge
407
00:24:54,545 --> 00:24:59,645
sometimes to be flexible, but the fact
that people need to process what they're
408
00:24:59,645 --> 00:25:01,474
being told and they can change their mind.
409
00:25:01,475 --> 00:25:05,094
So some people come in, they want
to do everything and then, and then
410
00:25:05,095 --> 00:25:09,834
they go, actually, I'm tired, I don't
want to do it, you know, and other
411
00:25:09,834 --> 00:25:11,729
people come in not wanting to do it.
412
00:25:11,940 --> 00:25:14,050
Anything and end up doing everything.
413
00:25:14,370 --> 00:25:18,530
So it's like honoring the moment
or honoring the process that
414
00:25:18,530 --> 00:25:24,750
people are in and giving them time
and also giving people choice.
415
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,539
So it can be, not everybody
has to do everything.
416
00:25:27,539 --> 00:25:30,279
If one person in the family
wants to do the wash and dress
417
00:25:30,279 --> 00:25:33,350
and somebody else in the family
doesn't want to do it, it's fine.
418
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,580
Not everybody has to do
the same thing, you know?
419
00:25:36,690 --> 00:25:39,400
So it's really, really, really important.
420
00:25:40,450 --> 00:25:45,969
Letting people like as a group process
things, but also the individual people
421
00:25:45,969 --> 00:25:51,419
have different needs, like, and it's
about saying, yes, you can do this and
422
00:25:51,419 --> 00:25:57,139
this, it's not this or this, you can,
yes, we can do that and we can do that.
423
00:25:57,170 --> 00:25:58,209
And yes, do that.
424
00:25:58,260 --> 00:26:03,400
And yes, do that, you know, and
some, and mostly, uh, people.
425
00:26:03,945 --> 00:26:07,745
can navigate their way through
that with families, with their
426
00:26:07,745 --> 00:26:08,885
family, because it's tricky.
427
00:26:08,885 --> 00:26:09,754
Families are tricky.
428
00:26:09,754 --> 00:26:11,725
We all know families are tricky.
429
00:26:11,725 --> 00:26:15,435
But sometimes Sorry, go on.
430
00:26:16,565 --> 00:26:19,784
Catherine: What would you say that you
use that is the most difficult thing
431
00:26:19,784 --> 00:26:21,814
at that time for families to deal with?
432
00:26:22,254 --> 00:26:26,495
Jenny: I think there are probably,
sometimes there are, sometimes their own
433
00:26:26,495 --> 00:26:28,365
family dynamic is difficult for them.
434
00:26:29,215 --> 00:26:29,985
And,
435
00:26:33,645 --> 00:26:37,995
you know, often families can go
back to their default positions
436
00:26:37,995 --> 00:26:39,845
in those moments of vulnerability.
437
00:26:40,565 --> 00:26:46,125
Uh, and so if it's, I mean,
as much as possible, a funeral
438
00:26:46,125 --> 00:26:47,645
should be a healing time.
439
00:26:47,824 --> 00:26:53,525
And that's why it should be, uh, it
shouldn't be an either or time, you
440
00:26:53,525 --> 00:26:55,235
know, so it's really good for people.
441
00:26:55,565 --> 00:27:00,005
It's also, I suppose, one of the things
that can happen is that the person
442
00:27:00,005 --> 00:27:05,215
who, the, the person who's the, uh,
funeral, organizer or the executor
443
00:27:05,295 --> 00:27:09,605
of the will, or the next of kin,
can make a decision that the other
444
00:27:09,605 --> 00:27:11,025
people in the family don't agree with.
445
00:27:12,535 --> 00:27:15,444
And that's very difficult
for people to come to that.
446
00:27:15,515 --> 00:27:16,775
We know we don't want to do that.
447
00:27:16,785 --> 00:27:22,204
That's why making, doing the preparate,
like, that's why, uh, letting people know
448
00:27:22,205 --> 00:27:26,845
what you want and writing things down
is really, like, it's a very kind and
449
00:27:26,855 --> 00:27:28,975
generous thing to do for your family.
450
00:27:29,255 --> 00:27:33,505
And, you know, we have people and
often the family doesn't want, you
451
00:27:33,505 --> 00:27:36,775
know, the family doesn't want to
talk about it before people die.
452
00:27:37,565 --> 00:27:41,745
You know, dad or mum might say,
we need to talk about my funeral.
453
00:27:41,745 --> 00:27:44,745
And they'll say, Oh no, we're not going to
do that because you're not going to die.
454
00:27:45,285 --> 00:27:48,694
You know, it's not helpful for people.
455
00:27:49,315 --> 00:27:51,865
Like that's not helpful because
then they die and they don't know.
456
00:27:52,285 --> 00:27:56,585
So we often, I mean, there's very simple
things that people can do about that.
457
00:27:56,605 --> 00:28:00,055
You know, and I've said to many people,
just write an email to all of them.
458
00:28:00,895 --> 00:28:02,405
Say open when you're ready.
459
00:28:02,505 --> 00:28:03,905
This is what I'd like to happen.
460
00:28:04,205 --> 00:28:09,475
Because even though, um, they don't
think they want to know, when they
461
00:28:09,475 --> 00:28:11,655
need to know, they need to know.
462
00:28:11,925 --> 00:28:13,134
Like, open it if you're ready.
463
00:28:13,135 --> 00:28:14,115
We can talk about it.
464
00:28:14,115 --> 00:28:16,525
If you don't want to talk about
it, I've given you the information.
465
00:28:16,655 --> 00:28:17,075
That's it.
466
00:28:18,214 --> 00:28:19,295
It's not hard to do.
467
00:28:19,335 --> 00:28:20,234
That's very simple.
468
00:28:20,475 --> 00:28:24,805
And people are very, uh,
relieved about that because
469
00:28:24,805 --> 00:28:26,235
they've given the information.
470
00:28:26,285 --> 00:28:27,685
It's like throwing a ball.
471
00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:34,220
And it might take a really long time
for someone to catch it, but it's in,
472
00:28:34,490 --> 00:28:36,700
it's been thrown and it can be caught.
473
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,710
So that's a very simple thing to do.
474
00:28:42,419 --> 00:28:47,269
Please cremate me, please bury me,
please, you know, I think the other thing
475
00:28:47,269 --> 00:28:52,680
that's tricky for families is the, if
they don't have the money to pay for the
476
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,870
funeral, it can be very, very stressful.
477
00:28:55,120 --> 00:29:00,139
So navigating that, um, And working
that out, I mean, no interest loans
478
00:29:00,139 --> 00:29:03,649
are really fantastic now, because
they will loan to different members
479
00:29:03,649 --> 00:29:05,510
of the family for the same funeral.
480
00:29:06,650 --> 00:29:12,459
So that's very helpful, because often
what happens is that people, one person
481
00:29:12,459 --> 00:29:15,930
in the family can go into a lot of debt
to pay for the funeral, and of course at
482
00:29:15,930 --> 00:29:18,879
the time of the funeral, everyone's like,
yeah, we'll help, we can do it, you know.
483
00:29:19,099 --> 00:29:22,450
But after the funeral, sometimes
that doesn't happen, and so instead
484
00:29:22,450 --> 00:29:25,569
of bringing the family together,
it completely splits the family.
485
00:29:26,010 --> 00:29:29,820
So, that's why with tender, we have
a policy of that the funeral has
486
00:29:29,820 --> 00:29:32,820
to be paid for before the funeral.
487
00:29:32,870 --> 00:29:33,139
Yeah.
488
00:29:33,169 --> 00:29:33,610
Okay.
489
00:29:34,139 --> 00:29:35,420
Because we don't want to leave any.
490
00:29:35,490 --> 00:29:39,719
And so, if, if it's, we don't carry debt.
491
00:29:39,860 --> 00:29:44,009
We can't afford to carry debt in our
organization, but it's better for people
492
00:29:44,049 --> 00:29:46,039
to be done and dusted with the money.
493
00:29:47,310 --> 00:29:47,509
Yeah.
494
00:29:47,509 --> 00:29:51,670
So, if everybody can get like, you
know, if a funeral is 4, 000 and
495
00:29:52,450 --> 00:29:55,960
there's four people in the family,
they will get a 1, 000 loan from NILS.
496
00:29:56,180 --> 00:29:58,169
That's doable.
497
00:29:58,670 --> 00:30:03,250
They've got to pay their own loan
off, you know, but so it's really
498
00:30:03,250 --> 00:30:08,960
good to work out, uh, to help
people navigate that money thing.
499
00:30:09,475 --> 00:30:16,605
And I suppose during the process, but
it's also that thing about unlinking, uh,
500
00:30:16,765 --> 00:30:20,664
how much you pay from a funeral, for a
funeral, to how much you love somebody.
501
00:30:20,695 --> 00:30:23,555
So like, love has got
nothing to do with money.
502
00:30:23,745 --> 00:30:24,125
Nothing.
503
00:30:24,915 --> 00:30:27,485
But the culture says it does, you know.
504
00:30:27,965 --> 00:30:33,755
And so, that's why the culture change
is really important, is that people
505
00:30:34,175 --> 00:30:39,625
understand, it's not any pressure
on people to have the hearse, and
506
00:30:39,644 --> 00:30:43,305
to have all the big flowers, and to
do all this, because they want, they
507
00:30:43,335 --> 00:30:48,095
think that that's them honouring
that person, you know, I don't know.
508
00:30:48,095 --> 00:30:48,144
Bye.
509
00:30:49,265 --> 00:30:53,185
I don't know many people who'd say,
spend a lot of money on my funeral.
510
00:30:53,375 --> 00:30:57,345
Like, I think most people will say,
don't spend a lot of money on my funeral.
511
00:30:57,615 --> 00:30:58,894
Just go and have a good time.
512
00:30:58,965 --> 00:31:04,094
Like, give the music lessons or have
a party or like nobody's, I don't
513
00:31:04,145 --> 00:31:07,604
know very, I mean, probably if they
are saying that you probably almost
514
00:31:07,605 --> 00:31:10,635
don't want to do it anyway, because
they might've been saying that their
515
00:31:10,635 --> 00:31:19,725
whole lives, you know, it's like, if
we can change culture so that, that.
516
00:31:20,795 --> 00:31:25,825
How we express our love or care for
somebody at those moments is not
517
00:31:25,865 --> 00:31:27,875
got to do with how much we've spent.
518
00:31:28,505 --> 00:31:33,534
Catherine: Just going back to that
point, it is interesting that, you
519
00:31:33,535 --> 00:31:37,345
know, and I think it may come from
your experience of what you've seen,
520
00:31:37,345 --> 00:31:42,335
but also back to, you know, your own
experience with your, your mother and
521
00:31:42,335 --> 00:31:46,645
correct me if I'm wrong, is that when
you go through a personal experience
522
00:31:46,645 --> 00:31:48,605
like that, you do actually work out.
523
00:31:48,605 --> 00:31:48,645
Yeah.
524
00:31:48,860 --> 00:31:56,310
Very quickly, what matters, uh, at those
times and, and I have also, my father died
525
00:31:56,370 --> 00:32:02,679
over 10 years ago now and, and it is at
those times that, you know, it's, it's in
526
00:32:02,679 --> 00:32:07,659
hindsight that I personally look back and
it was the time that I spent with him, not
527
00:32:07,660 --> 00:32:09,550
what I did at the funeral that mattered.
528
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:09,830
Jenny: Um,
529
00:32:10,300 --> 00:32:11,750
Catherine: um, the funeral.
530
00:32:12,215 --> 00:32:18,775
You know, it is not the, the real thing,
but at the same time, I also had the, the
531
00:32:18,775 --> 00:32:24,025
privilege and the gift from him that he
had actually said what he wanted to do.
532
00:32:24,345 --> 00:32:28,425
So it meant that I didn't have that guilt
or have to make those decisions, which
533
00:32:28,595 --> 00:32:30,575
was an amazing gift that he gave me.
534
00:32:30,954 --> 00:32:31,915
Jenny: Yeah, I think that's right.
535
00:32:31,925 --> 00:32:33,135
I think two things about that.
536
00:32:33,145 --> 00:32:39,415
One is I think that the reason for
families to want to know is that
537
00:32:39,425 --> 00:32:41,195
you might not like their decision.
538
00:32:41,195 --> 00:32:41,255
Right.
539
00:32:41,255 --> 00:32:41,265
Yeah.
540
00:32:41,265 --> 00:32:41,274
Yeah.
541
00:32:42,645 --> 00:32:47,355
Like you might not, and I've been
in conversations with people where,
542
00:32:47,555 --> 00:32:50,645
because people talk about that when
I'm there, they'll say, someone say,
543
00:32:50,645 --> 00:32:54,015
oh, I've organized my funeral, I'm
just going to have my ashes like thrown
544
00:32:54,015 --> 00:32:56,995
off the cliff and there's someone else
at the table who'll burst into tears.
545
00:32:58,970 --> 00:33:04,180
Who's a daughter or a son and
they'll say, Oh, uh, I didn't
546
00:33:04,180 --> 00:33:04,920
know you were going to do that.
547
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:05,670
Why are you going to do that?
548
00:33:05,670 --> 00:33:09,530
I always imagined there'd be somewhere
I would visit you, sit with you.
549
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,250
And, and that, the father's going, Oh,
Oh, well, I didn't have to have my ashes
550
00:33:14,250 --> 00:33:15,730
thrown off the cliff, whatever you want.
551
00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:17,380
He's just trying to do what's easy.
552
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:17,930
Right.
553
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:19,849
All the, well, they're just
trying to do what's easy.
554
00:33:20,179 --> 00:33:22,550
So the point of having the discussion.
555
00:33:22,830 --> 00:33:30,390
Part of it is to see, give everybody an
opportunity of having the best outcome and
556
00:33:30,420 --> 00:33:35,440
still, and sometimes that won't happen,
but at least there's an opportunity.
557
00:33:35,450 --> 00:33:38,750
So if you open that email and you
read something that you don't like,
558
00:33:38,759 --> 00:33:42,000
you might want to challenge it or
say, Oh, you have to do it like that.
559
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,320
And the person might say, actually,
I do have to do it like this.
560
00:33:45,370 --> 00:33:47,530
And this is why I have to do it like that.
561
00:33:47,990 --> 00:33:51,409
So there's a understanding and a respect.
562
00:33:51,685 --> 00:33:54,425
In that rather than
being put upon for that.
563
00:33:55,795 --> 00:33:59,405
So I think, and I think the other
thing where money can come into it
564
00:33:59,405 --> 00:34:03,775
is that somebody might really want
something that isn't affordable,
565
00:34:04,335 --> 00:34:06,415
it's expensive to be buried.
566
00:34:06,645 --> 00:34:08,995
It's also that, so how are
we going to pay for that?
567
00:34:09,005 --> 00:34:11,095
Can we start saving for that now?
568
00:34:11,145 --> 00:34:12,415
That's something you really want.
569
00:34:12,635 --> 00:34:16,085
Maybe the family needs to get together
and start a savings fund so you can
570
00:34:16,085 --> 00:34:17,425
have the thing that you really want.
571
00:34:17,755 --> 00:34:20,574
So it's all of that just smoothing.
572
00:34:21,495 --> 00:34:29,435
The way for something to happen, you know,
and I think, I think the other, I think
573
00:34:29,435 --> 00:34:32,695
there's, I think they're the two things I
thought about that, but I, I, yeah, it's,
574
00:34:32,735 --> 00:34:40,384
it's, I think the other thing to say is
about tender is that we have a, a real,
575
00:34:40,644 --> 00:34:44,095
uh, philosophy of neutrality in tender.
576
00:34:46,590 --> 00:34:50,730
We're not assuming that somebody dying
is the worst thing that could happen.
577
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,790
We're going, we don't know, we don't
know your relationship with that person.
578
00:34:56,220 --> 00:34:59,279
We don't know this is a
good or bad day for you.
579
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,069
We're going to let you tell us and
then we will respond to what is.
580
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,529
So we would not often go, I'm
very sorry, this is very obvious.
581
00:35:07,229 --> 00:35:08,389
I'm very sorry for your loss.
582
00:35:08,390 --> 00:35:09,570
We might go, how are you?
583
00:35:09,790 --> 00:35:15,470
Somebody might go, I'm just happy this
person died because I'm tired or I'm,
584
00:35:15,470 --> 00:35:21,385
uh, I didn't like them, or I'm relieved,
or this is the best day of my life,
585
00:35:21,405 --> 00:35:22,815
or this is the worst day of my life.
586
00:35:23,005 --> 00:35:23,845
It's their day.
587
00:35:23,855 --> 00:35:24,675
It's not our day.
588
00:35:25,105 --> 00:35:32,965
So it's really about leaving the space
very clean for everybody else to, uh,
589
00:35:33,044 --> 00:35:35,825
take up the emotional space of that time.
590
00:35:35,894 --> 00:35:36,564
Not us.
591
00:35:36,625 --> 00:35:37,464
It's not our day.
592
00:35:37,785 --> 00:35:43,680
Um, so I think that's also really
important that you don't have to, you
593
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:48,775
know, It's not all, you know, it's, it's,
it's, there's not a one size fits all
594
00:35:48,775 --> 00:35:50,405
because there's not a one size fits all.
595
00:35:51,730 --> 00:35:56,990
You know, I think sometimes the only
other thing I would say is that sometimes
596
00:35:56,990 --> 00:36:01,890
families can't reach a resolution about
funerals and occasionally we've done
597
00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:09,059
two funerals for the same person on the
same day of like a religious ceremony
598
00:36:09,059 --> 00:36:13,529
and a non religious ceremony because
it just takes an extra hour to do that.
599
00:36:14,265 --> 00:36:18,655
And yeah, for some people that
religious survey, especially around
600
00:36:18,655 --> 00:36:20,155
children is really important.
601
00:36:21,225 --> 00:36:25,245
And for other people, the non
religion is really important.
602
00:36:25,405 --> 00:36:31,954
So sometimes you can't bridge the gap,
but the families doesn't have, the family
603
00:36:31,954 --> 00:36:34,325
doesn't have to be in despair about it.
604
00:36:34,655 --> 00:36:37,095
They can say, I can see
that's important for you.
605
00:36:37,385 --> 00:36:37,965
I do that.
606
00:36:38,405 --> 00:36:40,425
And, oh, I can see
that's important for you.
607
00:36:40,425 --> 00:36:41,205
Let's do that.
608
00:36:41,525 --> 00:36:49,865
So it doesn't have to be, uh, you know,
you can only do a funeral once in a
609
00:36:49,865 --> 00:36:53,324
way, like having, you know, you're not
going to get another day to do this on.
610
00:36:53,325 --> 00:36:57,514
So you might as well make sure you've
done it in the way you want to do it.
611
00:36:59,355 --> 00:37:03,320
Catherine: Well, that obviously says
something about how the value you
612
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:08,510
place on that to, to have your team
be comfortable to do that and work
613
00:37:08,510 --> 00:37:10,230
with the family to accommodate that.
614
00:37:10,340 --> 00:37:17,460
Uh, and, and obviously, you know, with the
core feelings that you have, and you've
615
00:37:17,460 --> 00:37:20,530
embedded those within tender funerals.
616
00:37:20,940 --> 00:37:23,880
So tell me about how, how
have you managed to do that?
617
00:37:23,890 --> 00:37:31,680
Like how, Is there a code of conduct
that you have or the network is, is that
618
00:37:31,690 --> 00:37:37,319
where you discuss these sort of values
that you represent in the organization?
619
00:37:37,620 --> 00:37:41,009
And especially given the fact
that, you know, you've, you've
620
00:37:41,009 --> 00:37:42,580
expanded very, very quickly.
621
00:37:42,580 --> 00:37:49,740
Like I think you in June, 2022, just
having a look here, you know, you expanded
622
00:37:49,740 --> 00:37:51,940
to the mid North coast of New South Wales.
623
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,440
And then from then you've expanded.
624
00:37:55,690 --> 00:37:59,620
Rapidly with Brisbane, you know,
Canberra opening in August this
625
00:37:59,620 --> 00:38:05,160
year, Geelong, Eastern Melbourne, Far
North Queensland, Newcastle, Perth,
626
00:38:05,190 --> 00:38:09,900
Tasmania, Western Sydney, and I've
probably maybe missed one or two.
627
00:38:10,299 --> 00:38:16,650
How do you actually have the values
that you have and then manage to
628
00:38:16,650 --> 00:38:20,960
expand in that very short period
629
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,090
Jenny: of time as well?
630
00:38:22,750 --> 00:38:26,845
Uh, Look, I think that the
values are human values.
631
00:38:26,875 --> 00:38:31,055
And I think, I think it is hard
for the funeral directors sometimes
632
00:38:31,055 --> 00:38:36,175
to navigate, to navigate what
we're asking them to navigate.
633
00:38:36,175 --> 00:38:41,364
But I think there is a constant, we
have a credo and the credo is about
634
00:38:41,394 --> 00:38:45,595
transparency, kindness in the credo.
635
00:38:45,595 --> 00:38:48,815
It says kindness is our compass
and that's a deep kindness.
636
00:38:48,825 --> 00:38:50,445
So it's like, it's really like,
637
00:38:52,625 --> 00:38:58,890
uh, you know, helping or having
those discussions about what is
638
00:38:58,890 --> 00:39:03,150
challenging for the, for people,
what is challenging about neutrality.
639
00:39:03,290 --> 00:39:04,640
So what is challenging?
640
00:39:04,650 --> 00:39:10,159
Neutrality doesn't mean you don't
care, you know, and, and also
641
00:39:10,199 --> 00:39:11,960
it is like letting people, so.
642
00:39:14,345 --> 00:39:18,955
Tender is really about activating
people's communities around them to
643
00:39:18,955 --> 00:39:21,845
help them navigate their process.
644
00:39:21,895 --> 00:39:25,234
So it's not really about like, we're
there, we're supporting them, but the
645
00:39:25,245 --> 00:39:29,544
best funerals we ever have is when
we're like, people are right back, you
646
00:39:29,544 --> 00:39:34,515
know, we don't have uniforms, have tiny
little badges and the family is forward,
647
00:39:34,585 --> 00:39:38,235
or their community, not necessarily
the family, sometimes it's their,
648
00:39:38,505 --> 00:39:40,605
it's the family of choice, you know.
649
00:39:41,235 --> 00:39:41,745
So.
650
00:39:42,655 --> 00:39:46,595
It really is about, because we're not
going to be there going forward, so
651
00:39:46,595 --> 00:39:51,875
if you can get people to be with their
communities between the death of someone
652
00:39:51,875 --> 00:39:57,765
and when you, um, dispose of their body,
that's a very, that middle section means
653
00:39:57,765 --> 00:40:00,165
they remain connected going forward.
654
00:40:00,614 --> 00:40:05,005
So, for us, it's really
about us dropping whatever.
655
00:40:05,485 --> 00:40:09,625
our ideas are about what
people should or shouldn't do.
656
00:40:09,715 --> 00:40:14,175
You know, we've got our own code about,
you know, everybody's looked after,
657
00:40:14,235 --> 00:40:18,204
you know, people are, when they're
brought into the mortuary, they're given
658
00:40:18,215 --> 00:40:23,215
basic mortuary care, unless the family
specifically says don't do that, or
659
00:40:23,245 --> 00:40:25,685
unless their family's already done that.
660
00:40:25,695 --> 00:40:29,475
So the best thing for us is if
people do that care, the washing
661
00:40:29,475 --> 00:40:32,895
and dressing when the person dies
and then before we even get them,
662
00:40:32,895 --> 00:40:34,715
that's, that's Good for the family.
663
00:40:34,745 --> 00:40:38,825
So, but there's basic things
that are non negotiable for us.
664
00:40:38,995 --> 00:40:43,395
And, and that's what people sign
up to when they come into, when
665
00:40:43,395 --> 00:40:44,915
they come in to join tender.
666
00:40:44,925 --> 00:40:48,295
So, we're also not saying to
people come and join tender.
667
00:40:48,305 --> 00:40:48,924
We never.
668
00:40:49,375 --> 00:40:53,445
Invite, we've never, we only go to
communities who want to have a tender.
669
00:40:53,765 --> 00:40:55,395
We never say you should have a tender.
670
00:40:55,475 --> 00:41:00,034
So, and all of those tenders
will be owned and operated by
671
00:41:00,034 --> 00:41:02,025
their own communities, not by us.
672
00:41:02,175 --> 00:41:04,425
So they're all companies
limited by guarantee.
673
00:41:04,465 --> 00:41:06,955
They all belong to their communities.
674
00:41:07,475 --> 00:41:13,595
So it really is about just amplifying
the values that have attracted
675
00:41:13,845 --> 00:41:15,315
people to tender in the beginning.
676
00:41:15,785 --> 00:41:19,385
So it's not, we're not trying to sell
anybody anything, we're not, you know,
677
00:41:19,395 --> 00:41:23,435
I spend the first three hours out of
any new site wanting to join tender,
678
00:41:23,535 --> 00:41:28,705
honestly trying to say, this is really
difficult, it's going to take a long time,
679
00:41:29,235 --> 00:41:34,275
you know, you may work for four years,
and it's very, it's, you know, trying,
680
00:41:34,315 --> 00:41:36,475
really saying, this is what it's about.
681
00:41:37,350 --> 00:41:42,740
And I haven't actually had anybody
go, oh, you know, in a way, part of
682
00:41:42,740 --> 00:41:47,230
me is going, don't do it unless you
really want to do it because it's hard.
683
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,480
And because it's, it's an expensive
thing to do to set up a tender.
684
00:41:53,060 --> 00:41:55,129
And anyway, it's hard work.
685
00:41:55,130 --> 00:41:57,690
So I want to, I don't
want people to come in.
686
00:41:58,390 --> 00:42:04,890
Thinking it's easy to do, because it's
also like, it's also like there isn't
687
00:42:04,890 --> 00:42:07,070
that much support out there in the world.
688
00:42:07,140 --> 00:42:10,369
Philanthropic support to set up
tenders, so it's really hard for
689
00:42:10,369 --> 00:42:12,070
people to raise their money, you know.
690
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:17,189
Catherine: And tell me, when
you, before you expanded, you
691
00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:19,190
allowed yourself that four years.
692
00:42:19,985 --> 00:42:25,475
Was that to try and test everything
before you actually said, yes,
693
00:42:25,475 --> 00:42:26,835
it could work, this model?
694
00:42:27,245 --> 00:42:28,655
Tell me a little bit about that.
695
00:42:28,685 --> 00:42:33,155
Why, why the four years before
expanding when people were keen
696
00:42:33,194 --> 00:42:35,265
to, to jump on board already?
697
00:42:35,745 --> 00:42:39,574
Jenny: I think because we didn't
have the systems in, we were,
698
00:42:40,304 --> 00:42:41,364
we were learning as we did.
699
00:42:42,025 --> 00:42:45,405
We're still learning, you know,
we're still developing the systems.
700
00:42:45,415 --> 00:42:47,595
We're still, yeah, we're still learning.
701
00:42:47,745 --> 00:42:50,184
And yeah, I think that was part of it.
702
00:42:50,185 --> 00:42:53,175
I think we, I needed to be
sure, we all needed to be sure
703
00:42:53,175 --> 00:42:54,514
that the model would work.
704
00:42:55,615 --> 00:43:00,664
You know, the model is that, the business
model of tender is that we just, you
705
00:43:00,665 --> 00:43:03,845
charge what it costs us to operate.
706
00:43:04,555 --> 00:43:07,015
So we've, after we paid our funeral
directors, paid off our loans.
707
00:43:08,335 --> 00:43:11,305
You know, all of those things,
that's the cost, that's the
708
00:43:11,305 --> 00:43:12,505
operational cost of tender.
709
00:43:12,525 --> 00:43:15,615
That's, so not all the tenders
have the same price because
710
00:43:15,615 --> 00:43:17,315
they're not all got the same costs.
711
00:43:17,365 --> 00:43:21,815
Or, you know, they've got, you know,
they've got loans they have to pay
712
00:43:21,815 --> 00:43:23,514
off to pay for their buildings, etc.
713
00:43:24,255 --> 00:43:27,434
So, there, so the business model is about.
714
00:43:28,820 --> 00:43:32,280
Is about that not, we're not saying
here's the prices you have to charge
715
00:43:32,290 --> 00:43:37,290
except about the Benevolent Fund and
except about the, the Social Franchise
716
00:43:37,290 --> 00:43:38,670
Fund back to Tender Australia.
717
00:43:38,710 --> 00:43:43,250
So, they're the two prices we say these
are the things, these are the costs.
718
00:43:43,559 --> 00:43:46,019
Everything else, it's about
their operational model.
719
00:43:46,479 --> 00:43:49,400
So, I think we needed to
make sure that could work.
720
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,220
We didn't have a Benevolent
Fund to start with.
721
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,130
The Benevolent Fund has come through.
722
00:43:54,605 --> 00:43:56,495
has been developed over time.
723
00:43:56,865 --> 00:44:00,775
And I was really not overly in
favor of the Benevolent Bund.
724
00:44:00,775 --> 00:44:03,295
I was like, well, everyone just
should have an affordable funeral.
725
00:44:03,905 --> 00:44:08,905
But I was, I have to say, I was really,
there's so many things in this process
726
00:44:08,934 --> 00:44:13,604
I've been really wrong about, Catherine,
and that was one of them, that, uh,
727
00:44:13,785 --> 00:44:16,945
um, people love the Benevolent Bund.
728
00:44:17,125 --> 00:44:21,205
And, and so who am I to say it's not good?
729
00:44:21,425 --> 00:44:21,875
It's good.
730
00:44:22,315 --> 00:44:29,770
Uh, so, you know, We, and also it
was ti it was really took us seven
731
00:44:29,770 --> 00:44:35,840
years to open tender and I think
probably we were tired as well.
732
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,370
We wanted to make sure it was gonna work.
733
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:42,650
It still needed our love and attention
and to replicate it at that time, I don't,
734
00:44:43,730 --> 00:44:45,230
I just dunno how we would've done it.
735
00:44:45,235 --> 00:44:48,810
And I don't think it would've been
the right thing to do to do it.
736
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:49,560
So.
737
00:44:50,155 --> 00:44:53,015
Four years later, we could see,
yes, we can pay off our loans.
738
00:44:53,055 --> 00:44:53,335
Yes.
739
00:44:53,375 --> 00:44:54,735
People want the funerals.
740
00:44:54,975 --> 00:44:55,295
Yes.
741
00:44:55,295 --> 00:44:56,315
We've learned a lot.
742
00:44:56,765 --> 00:45:02,954
Uh, so we embarked upon that journey
and, you know, I know it sounds like
743
00:45:02,954 --> 00:45:11,424
we've, you know, we have grown, uh, we
have said yes to a lot of communities,
744
00:45:11,425 --> 00:45:15,844
but that doesn't mean that, uh, it's
quite hard to do it in Australia.
745
00:45:15,844 --> 00:45:18,884
It's a very small philanthropic
pond in Australia.
746
00:45:19,324 --> 00:45:19,984
So.
747
00:45:20,585 --> 00:45:24,745
You know, we have a very successful
model, but it's still, we're still a
748
00:45:24,745 --> 00:45:29,915
startup, you know, and social enterprise
in Australia is a very new thing.
749
00:45:30,305 --> 00:45:34,325
And, you know, there were, I think
we're learning as a country about
750
00:45:34,325 --> 00:45:37,854
social enterprise and I don't
know that we've, you know, there's
751
00:45:37,854 --> 00:45:40,295
a big, uh, support of startups.
752
00:45:40,675 --> 00:45:43,285
When I say we're a startup, we're
sort of not a startup anymore.
753
00:45:44,860 --> 00:45:47,420
But there's a missing
middle in the funding.
754
00:45:47,610 --> 00:45:52,220
So it's like, it takes about seven
years, seven to 10 years for any
755
00:45:52,220 --> 00:45:53,839
business to become sustainable.
756
00:45:54,189 --> 00:45:56,450
And it's very hard to get funding
in Australia past four years.
757
00:45:57,109 --> 00:46:04,940
So it's like the model needs to be
responsive to the need because tender is a
758
00:46:04,940 --> 00:46:08,840
completely sustainable social enterprise.
759
00:46:10,395 --> 00:46:11,835
After a period of time.
760
00:46:12,125 --> 00:46:15,185
So it's, which is not usual either.
761
00:46:15,215 --> 00:46:20,815
It's unusual that it's, it, it's much
that's in a positive way that's not usual.
762
00:46:21,445 --> 00:46:25,375
Catherine: Anyway, you know, you, you, I
think you, you did mention that you had to
763
00:46:25,795 --> 00:46:31,465
develop the framework because there wasn't
a, there wasn't a social enterprise.
764
00:46:32,245 --> 00:46:35,375
For a franchise, there wasn't
a framework in Australia.
765
00:46:35,375 --> 00:46:40,744
So yeah, it's certainly, you've certainly
developed, you know, ways and processes
766
00:46:40,745 --> 00:46:43,765
that haven't been documented previously.
767
00:46:44,295 --> 00:46:46,925
And, and just tell me a little
bit about that benevolent
768
00:46:46,935 --> 00:46:48,155
fund that you, you mentioned.
769
00:46:48,664 --> 00:46:48,884
Jenny: Yeah.
770
00:46:48,955 --> 00:46:53,034
So the benevolent fund is, we have
three tiers of pricing in tender.
771
00:46:53,424 --> 00:46:56,674
We have the tier, there's
a, it's, they're not.
772
00:46:57,155 --> 00:47:00,825
They're not hierarchical, actually,
in a way, there's just so, so the
773
00:47:00,825 --> 00:47:05,505
first, the tier with the benevolent
is that you have to, there's a price
774
00:47:05,505 --> 00:47:10,635
point for making a contribution
to the benevolent fund of 250.
775
00:47:11,995 --> 00:47:14,985
So if people can afford to
pay that, they pay that.
776
00:47:15,445 --> 00:47:19,175
The next, there's another price point
where people can't afford to pay
777
00:47:19,175 --> 00:47:23,235
the 250 but can pay the at cost fee.
778
00:47:23,825 --> 00:47:27,435
And there's another price point
where people can't pay the at cost
779
00:47:27,444 --> 00:47:31,555
fee and we need to draw from the
Benevolent Fund to help them pay.
780
00:47:32,505 --> 00:47:37,365
So, they're the three points, and
what we find, what we've found is that
781
00:47:37,365 --> 00:47:40,045
people often give much more than 250.
782
00:47:40,705 --> 00:47:43,715
They're like, oh, mum would love
that, let's make that 1, 000.
783
00:47:44,265 --> 00:47:48,354
Because the benefit, what's, what
the thing I didn't know, that I
784
00:47:48,355 --> 00:47:52,405
know now, is that In a time that's
difficult, people want to give,
785
00:47:53,925 --> 00:47:56,305
and it's helpful to them to give.
786
00:47:56,815 --> 00:48:00,604
So, in a way, that's a gift
to them, that they give to
787
00:48:00,604 --> 00:48:02,155
others at that, at that moment.
788
00:48:02,644 --> 00:48:05,685
And I think the Benevolent
Fund isn't just about money.
789
00:48:06,285 --> 00:48:10,695
It's not about drawing on that
money just to have a basic funeral.
790
00:48:10,735 --> 00:48:13,505
It's about drawing on that money
to have the funeral you need
791
00:48:13,545 --> 00:48:16,264
to have for your own healing.
792
00:48:16,695 --> 00:48:23,704
So it can be that in your framework
to have a hearse is really important.
793
00:48:24,065 --> 00:48:26,035
You're going to feel terrible
if you don't have a hearse.
794
00:48:26,285 --> 00:48:26,955
So we'll get a hearse.
795
00:48:27,545 --> 00:48:31,145
It might be that you want a rosewood
coffin and not a cardboard coffin.
796
00:48:31,145 --> 00:48:33,965
So you can have a rosewood
coffin, you know, it's, it's
797
00:48:33,965 --> 00:48:35,575
really about, it's really about.
798
00:48:36,335 --> 00:48:41,575
You telling us what you need and
sometimes even if you can afford it.
799
00:48:42,985 --> 00:48:49,005
You know, you can't, that person
who's died has been problematic
800
00:48:49,015 --> 00:48:53,115
for you and you've just, now you
even have to pay for their funeral,
801
00:48:53,345 --> 00:48:54,955
like for God's sake, you know.
802
00:48:55,485 --> 00:48:58,214
So at that point we
might say, we'll chip in.
803
00:49:00,034 --> 00:49:03,135
We recognize that you've
already contributed a lot.
804
00:49:04,555 --> 00:49:07,335
And you don't, and you
just don't have it anymore.
805
00:49:07,515 --> 00:49:08,335
You can't, you know.
806
00:49:08,825 --> 00:49:09,885
And so that's healing.
807
00:49:09,915 --> 00:49:13,485
We might only trip in a couple of hundred
bucks, but there, but someone has gone,
808
00:49:13,495 --> 00:49:17,975
we can see that this is a burden and
you've borne that burden for a long time
809
00:49:17,975 --> 00:49:19,005
and you don't want to do it anymore.
810
00:49:19,715 --> 00:49:25,594
So there's a whole lot of ways, there's a
whole lot of sorts of benevolence in the
811
00:49:25,594 --> 00:49:32,935
world and they're not all about money, but
money can, the, the, the, the contribution
812
00:49:33,424 --> 00:49:35,395
is, can sometimes be an acknowledgement.
813
00:49:37,285 --> 00:49:41,535
And, and it's not, yeah, so
that's why it is affordable.
814
00:49:41,565 --> 00:49:44,105
That's why you can afford to
have the funeral you need to have
815
00:49:44,105 --> 00:49:46,805
because there's money there to pay
for the funeral they need to have.
816
00:49:47,675 --> 00:49:50,445
Catherine: And how can people
support that benevolent fund?
817
00:49:50,465 --> 00:49:50,755
Can they
818
00:49:50,795 --> 00:49:52,115
Jenny: donate to it or?
819
00:49:52,434 --> 00:49:57,435
They could donate to the individual
Tenders, we don't have a national
820
00:49:57,505 --> 00:50:01,405
fund, so they can go online and
donate to the individual tenders.
821
00:50:01,755 --> 00:50:07,194
I mean, any donation that, for the
non operational tenders, they could
822
00:50:07,194 --> 00:50:11,875
donate to help them start, so it
wouldn't be tied to, so the Benevolent
823
00:50:11,884 --> 00:50:16,745
Fund is, the 250 in the Benevolent
Fund, the money in the Benevolent
824
00:50:16,745 --> 00:50:18,605
Fund has to be used for funerals.
825
00:50:18,795 --> 00:50:19,789
It has to be.
826
00:50:19,790 --> 00:50:23,190
You can't, you can't say, well,
we're going to use the benevolent
827
00:50:23,340 --> 00:50:27,230
fund to, you know, fund a volunteer
picnic or something, you know, you
828
00:50:27,230 --> 00:50:29,470
got to, or to buy a new trolley even.
829
00:50:29,710 --> 00:50:30,649
So there's two funds.
830
00:50:30,660 --> 00:50:33,250
There's like a donation fund
and there's a benevolent fund.
831
00:50:33,910 --> 00:50:38,650
So if people felt like donating,
it's probably better for people to
832
00:50:38,650 --> 00:50:43,520
donate to, well not better, it's not
better, but it's more usable for the
833
00:50:43,670 --> 00:50:48,500
tenders that haven't started to just
be given money to help them start.
834
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:49,570
And there's a donate.
835
00:50:50,145 --> 00:50:54,355
To each of them on their web page and
they've all got it right now on their web
836
00:50:54,585 --> 00:51:00,465
page to the operational tenders, like when
the operational tenders start, they often
837
00:51:00,465 --> 00:51:02,224
don't have money in their benevolent fund.
838
00:51:02,225 --> 00:51:07,655
So, say, when Mid North Coast
started, Tanda Illawarra used their
839
00:51:07,655 --> 00:51:09,595
benevolent fund for Mid North Coast.
840
00:51:10,235 --> 00:51:13,485
They didn't give them money, but it
went through their benevolent fund.
841
00:51:13,485 --> 00:51:16,145
So, Mid North Coast billed them for that.
842
00:51:17,130 --> 00:51:20,210
Money, because, and probably when
Canberra starts, probably Mid North
843
00:51:20,210 --> 00:51:25,460
Coast, then Illawarra will help them
in the beginning with their benevolent,
844
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:30,580
because that's a common, it's a
common goal of tender to do that.
845
00:51:30,789 --> 00:51:33,030
And also the benevolent
fund's got to be used.
846
00:51:33,170 --> 00:51:36,930
So, you want to use the benevolent
fund, not just have it sitting there.
847
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:38,560
So, yeah, so people can donate.
848
00:51:39,270 --> 00:51:40,020
Absolutely.
849
00:51:40,910 --> 00:51:44,270
Catherine: And we'll put links
on our show notes that actually
850
00:51:44,270 --> 00:51:46,470
link to the websites as well.
851
00:51:48,020 --> 00:51:52,779
And coming back to the fact that it's
that social enterprise framework that
852
00:51:52,790 --> 00:51:59,010
you're using, or what you are, most
social enterprises, Monitor or measure
853
00:51:59,010 --> 00:52:00,740
the impacts that they're, they're having.
854
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,430
Have you done any of that measuring
and, and what has it told you?
855
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:05,250
Jenny: Yeah.
856
00:52:05,250 --> 00:52:07,630
So we have done a lot of that measuring.
857
00:52:07,630 --> 00:52:14,669
We do a biannual, uh, impact report and
we serve, so part of our, uh, we have
858
00:52:14,669 --> 00:52:18,600
an outcomes framework that the, that the
funeral directors fill out and that that's
859
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:25,985
about, you know, country of births, uh,
how old the people are who were using you
860
00:52:25,985 --> 00:52:30,875
know, the age demographic, the country
of birth, the cultural, you know, their
861
00:52:30,875 --> 00:52:35,535
cultural background or their cultural
practice, uh, the money, the amount
862
00:52:35,535 --> 00:52:39,765
of people who've used the Benevolent
Fund, the, yeah, there's a whole lot of
863
00:52:39,905 --> 00:52:41,915
questions that we, that we ask people.
864
00:52:41,915 --> 00:52:47,034
And then that data is used partly
to, that data is used every
865
00:52:47,034 --> 00:52:51,604
month, is reported back, oh, every
quarterly, that's reported back to.
866
00:52:52,315 --> 00:52:56,175
the, uh, to Tender Australia, but also
it's that data can be shared with the
867
00:52:56,205 --> 00:53:00,275
next, with the network, and we can give
it back to them to use for themselves.
868
00:53:00,354 --> 00:53:06,354
So, we also do a, uh, Kerry Noonan
from the Death Literacy Institute does
869
00:53:06,354 --> 00:53:13,330
our impact, impact, uh, report, and
they, so they interview, um, There's a
870
00:53:13,330 --> 00:53:17,650
series of questions that they ask and
that's about healthy bereavement and
871
00:53:17,660 --> 00:53:22,310
impact of the family on participation.
872
00:53:22,370 --> 00:53:26,060
And so there's a whole lot of questions
that they answer in the survey.
873
00:53:26,060 --> 00:53:27,409
Everybody's surveyed.
874
00:53:28,030 --> 00:53:29,600
They don't have to, of
course, answer that.
875
00:53:29,619 --> 00:53:34,979
So we don't survey people who are
six months out from having a funeral.
876
00:53:36,180 --> 00:53:41,580
But we survey everybody beyond that six
months and they don't have to answer.
877
00:53:42,610 --> 00:53:42,950
Yeah.
878
00:53:43,010 --> 00:53:43,280
Yeah.
879
00:53:43,310 --> 00:53:44,800
But we have quite a good response rate.
880
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,320
And then from that, people will say,
yes, I'm happy to be interviewed.
881
00:53:48,359 --> 00:53:50,240
And then there's an interview process.
882
00:53:50,649 --> 00:53:54,570
But there's also a, we also
calculate how much money we've
883
00:53:54,570 --> 00:53:56,664
saved in the community over time.
884
00:53:56,664 --> 00:53:56,745
Right.
885
00:53:56,745 --> 00:53:56,827
Right.
886
00:53:56,827 --> 00:53:56,909
Right.
887
00:53:57,180 --> 00:54:00,400
Over the time so that
we've been operating.
888
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,140
So for instance in the time that tenders
been operating in the Illawarra It's
889
00:54:04,140 --> 00:54:06,120
saved the community eight million dollars.
890
00:54:07,330 --> 00:54:07,700
Wow
891
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:09,110
Catherine: That's phenomenal.
892
00:54:09,500 --> 00:54:14,480
Yeah, so tell me have you seen any trends
in the people that are using tender?
893
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:24,610
Jenny: Uh, look, what we can also say is
that for people who, that most like the
894
00:54:24,610 --> 00:54:27,030
results, I'll send you the impact report.
895
00:54:27,099 --> 00:54:31,119
People can find the impact report
on the webpage, but Kerry Noolan
896
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:34,359
has come back to me and said,
you know, look, these results.
897
00:54:35,205 --> 00:54:37,315
Don't seem, they're too good.
898
00:54:39,275 --> 00:54:43,285
She's like, like 98 percent of people
say this, and I'm like, only 98%?
899
00:54:43,515 --> 00:54:45,135
What about the other 2%?
900
00:54:45,165 --> 00:54:45,905
What did they say?
901
00:54:45,905 --> 00:54:46,745
What happened?
902
00:54:46,855 --> 00:54:48,605
She's like, that's not
how you say it, Jenny.
903
00:54:49,274 --> 00:54:49,944
Get it together.
904
00:54:50,464 --> 00:54:51,294
Get it together.
905
00:54:51,535 --> 00:54:52,884
98 percent is really good.
906
00:54:52,924 --> 00:54:55,095
I'm like, yeah, but I
need to know about the 2%.
907
00:54:55,095 --> 00:54:57,504
I
908
00:54:57,505 --> 00:55:00,385
Catherine: think that says a lot about
you, Jenny, to be perfectly honest.
909
00:55:02,090 --> 00:55:03,860
You're concerned about the 2 percent
910
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,870
Jenny: I'm concerned about the 2
percent I'm like, what happened to them?
911
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:09,350
Did we, she's just like
shakes her head at me.
912
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:10,049
She's brilliant.
913
00:55:10,309 --> 00:55:16,660
But it's, you know, but there is this
time we did a, uh, we asked questions that
914
00:55:16,660 --> 00:55:21,790
were indicating around healthy bereavement
and it's in the impact report, which I
915
00:55:21,820 --> 00:55:24,560
can probably get, but hold on, if I can.
916
00:55:25,220 --> 00:55:29,880
So say for instance, in the last
impact report, it's like, there were 24
917
00:55:29,910 --> 00:55:35,185
countries that were Of people represented
who we, who we had done funerals for.
918
00:55:36,255 --> 00:55:41,585
I'm just trying to find, so 99 percent
of people said it was affordable.
919
00:55:42,565 --> 00:55:50,414
Uh, 96%, 99 percent felt they had op
choices, uh, and 96 percent felt they had.
920
00:55:51,735 --> 00:55:55,385
We'd made, we'd given them options that
made the funeral affordable to them.
921
00:55:55,735 --> 00:55:59,615
60 percent of people who were surveyed
had participated in the death care.
922
00:55:59,894 --> 00:56:02,275
In the normal funeral industry, that's 2%.
923
00:56:03,784 --> 00:56:09,335
So 99 percent of people were able to
access the funeral service they wanted.
924
00:56:09,864 --> 00:56:13,055
And 98 percent felt that the
funeral, that the funerals were
925
00:56:13,055 --> 00:56:14,855
aligned with their family values.
926
00:56:16,245 --> 00:56:18,995
So it's pretty, so the
interesting thing is,
927
00:56:19,765 --> 00:56:22,795
Catherine: I can see why Carrie
said that the stats are amazing.
928
00:56:23,255 --> 00:56:32,345
Jenny: Yeah, so the, so, and then the
reducing complex grief, so it's usually
929
00:56:32,345 --> 00:56:37,964
between 10 and 15 percent of people
who experience conflict, complex grief
930
00:56:38,014 --> 00:56:43,555
after going through a funeral, but 7
percent of people in the evaluation
931
00:56:44,195 --> 00:56:49,655
survey, the evaluations we did, so it
was only, so it was almost half Wow.
932
00:56:50,185 --> 00:56:55,795
Catherine: A lot about that, that process,
well, I suppose what I take from that is
933
00:56:55,835 --> 00:57:01,955
that, that process or that journey that
you take the families on, where at each
934
00:57:01,965 --> 00:57:08,024
step they get to make a conscious decision
and inform the decision about the process.
935
00:57:08,064 --> 00:57:08,414
Yeah.
936
00:57:08,604 --> 00:57:09,544
And also they can
937
00:57:09,574 --> 00:57:14,084
Jenny: participate in the process,
like, yeah, there's something very
938
00:57:14,084 --> 00:57:18,165
helpful There's something very
helpful for people about having an
939
00:57:18,165 --> 00:57:20,365
interaction with that person's body.
940
00:57:20,465 --> 00:57:26,665
There's something that really helps
them in the, and I think that's why
941
00:57:26,665 --> 00:57:31,744
we've always cared for our own human
beings have mostly over the last 20,
942
00:57:31,744 --> 00:57:32,874
000 years cared for their own dead.
943
00:57:33,525 --> 00:57:38,695
And part of that is because when you,
when you are interacting with the body
944
00:57:38,695 --> 00:57:41,715
of somebody and you put your hands
on their body, there's something that
945
00:57:41,725 --> 00:57:46,594
happens that I can't explain, but I
know it happens is that somehow your
946
00:57:47,095 --> 00:57:50,865
Body understands that that body is gone.
947
00:57:52,255 --> 00:57:57,505
It's like a cellular
transmission and that's helpful.
948
00:57:58,285 --> 00:58:02,155
The other thing that's really helpful
about being, having a body present
949
00:58:02,605 --> 00:58:09,974
is that often people can, they're
putting their grief on the coffin
950
00:58:09,985 --> 00:58:14,115
or on the body of the person who's
they've lost, not on the bodies of
951
00:58:14,165 --> 00:58:20,315
the people who have done the, who've
had the loss, and that's also helpful
952
00:58:20,465 --> 00:58:22,115
because they don't have to absorb it.
953
00:58:23,915 --> 00:58:25,645
Don't have to absorb
everybody else's grief.
954
00:58:25,645 --> 00:58:26,935
The grief goes where it belongs.
955
00:58:27,095 --> 00:58:29,765
That's why come and say
goodbye is important.
956
00:58:30,115 --> 00:58:32,475
That's why having a vigil is important.
957
00:58:32,805 --> 00:58:38,974
Because the grief can go, or the, or
the emotion can go to where it belongs.
958
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:44,550
Not, because it's hard to absorb
everybody else's feelings in that moment.
959
00:58:44,570 --> 00:58:49,820
Not that you shouldn't show your feelings,
but it's hard to, there's a lot going on.
960
00:58:49,850 --> 00:58:56,479
So those things, I think, traditionally
are why, like, there's always a, there's
961
00:58:56,479 --> 00:58:59,290
a wisdom in what's always happened.
962
00:58:59,670 --> 00:59:00,660
There's a wisdom in it.
963
00:59:00,979 --> 00:59:08,470
And we shouldn't throw it away without
realizing, oh, why did we, why have we
964
00:59:08,470 --> 00:59:10,229
only not done this for a hundred years?
965
00:59:10,229 --> 00:59:12,100
And is, has that helped us?
966
00:59:12,595 --> 00:59:17,545
And I think the other, and maybe it
hasn't, I also think the medicalization
967
00:59:17,555 --> 00:59:23,024
of people, the medicalization of death
means that often, and the amount of
968
00:59:23,025 --> 00:59:28,084
caring that's required, that often
those people who maybe are wives have
969
00:59:28,084 --> 00:59:35,155
become carers and they need some sort
of opportunity to be in relationship
970
00:59:35,195 --> 00:59:41,045
just with that person as in, in a, to
reclaim that relationship in some way.
971
00:59:41,265 --> 00:59:44,605
And I think, yeah, so I think
there's a whole lot of reasons.
972
00:59:45,090 --> 00:59:51,110
There's a whole lot of reasons for
participation that in that, because that
973
00:59:51,110 --> 00:59:53,000
helps build the muscle for the next stage.
974
00:59:54,710 --> 00:59:58,840
So if we go straight from one to the
other, there's a whole lot of things
975
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:04,609
that can't happen for us, that we need
to happen for us in order to go, to keep
976
01:00:04,610 --> 01:00:06,880
going, you know, keep going in life.
977
01:00:07,149 --> 01:00:12,940
And really, the biggest thing
I could say about this is that
978
01:00:16,029 --> 01:00:24,265
honestly being grounded is, is Is the
biggest connector to life that I could,
979
01:00:25,315 --> 01:00:29,855
that I've ever seen, that I've ever
experienced, because you sort of get it.
980
01:00:30,915 --> 01:00:32,585
You get, oh, you know,
981
01:00:34,594 --> 01:00:35,745
we're all going to die.
982
01:00:35,855 --> 01:00:37,005
And this is my life.
983
01:00:37,005 --> 01:00:37,705
I'm alive.
984
01:00:37,724 --> 01:00:41,574
So really it does catapult
you to the center of life.
985
01:00:41,984 --> 01:00:48,550
And why would you, what, Why would we
not take up that opportunity or at least
986
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:56,000
we, you know, need to be offered the
opportunity to have that, uh, experience.
987
01:00:56,050 --> 01:00:56,090
Do
988
01:00:56,090 --> 01:00:59,510
Catherine: you feel that it's
changed how you live your life
989
01:00:59,810 --> 01:01:01,550
since you actually started tender?
990
01:01:02,175 --> 01:01:07,805
Jenny: Well, I have been around death
a lot in my life, and I, I think,
991
01:01:07,935 --> 01:01:11,905
yeah, I think probably, I think,
992
01:01:15,364 --> 01:01:19,614
I'm sure it has, I mean, I don't think
it's possible that it wouldn't have,
993
01:01:19,965 --> 01:01:25,180
you know, I think it's, it's, it's, It's
meant that you have to be, you know, I'm
994
01:01:25,180 --> 01:01:30,510
aware I need to be not just working, but
living my life, you know, so even if I
995
01:01:30,540 --> 01:01:34,410
want to, so last week, for instance, I
was really tired, I was going to Melbourne
996
01:01:34,410 --> 01:01:38,279
one day, we had, I bought a stickers to
go and see the Sydney Symphony, me and
997
01:01:38,279 --> 01:01:42,010
my partner were like, Oh, we're really
tired, I'm like, we're going, you know,
998
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:48,140
because I'm not, I want my life, you
know, and we went and we were like, that
999
01:01:48,140 --> 01:01:53,760
was so great, you know, it's like, so not
just being aware, you know, Just being
1000
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:59,760
aware, I think, does, I think there's a
stage just when someone dies, when you're
1001
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:04,909
in a sort of a more liminal state that
you have access to things that are, you
1002
01:02:04,909 --> 01:02:09,439
have access to that understanding in
a different way than an everyday way.
1003
01:02:09,509 --> 01:02:16,020
So, I think, you know, that being in
those moments can propel you into that.
1004
01:02:16,735 --> 01:02:21,635
In, into more moments like that, but you
have to keep feeding that in yourself,
1005
01:02:21,845 --> 01:02:26,284
you know, and, and sometimes I find
that challenging to keep feeding that
1006
01:02:26,285 --> 01:02:32,514
in myself because, you know, it's,
it's, but if we lived in a culture where
1007
01:02:32,554 --> 01:02:34,245
that was true, that would be easier.
1008
01:02:35,585 --> 01:02:36,185
Catherine: Yeah.
1009
01:02:36,255 --> 01:02:36,575
Yep.
1010
01:02:37,194 --> 01:02:41,474
And that's interesting because I,
I refer to it as perhaps, you know,
1011
01:02:42,064 --> 01:02:44,424
the white noise is, is not as loud.
1012
01:02:45,010 --> 01:02:49,980
Uh, in everyday life and the volume
is, is turned down a little bit
1013
01:02:50,030 --> 01:02:52,270
and, and you can actually really.
1014
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:57,100
You know, spend time focusing on the
things that matter and, and the example
1015
01:02:57,100 --> 01:03:01,730
that you gave, you know, last, last
week is, is perfect because, you know,
1016
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:06,570
like the, the importance is that you
spend time with your partner and family,
1017
01:03:06,610 --> 01:03:12,079
you know, out of that week, you know,
and the folk remains, there's, I think
1018
01:03:12,079 --> 01:03:14,870
there's a, a clarity that you perhaps
1019
01:03:15,690 --> 01:03:16,100
Jenny: Yeah.
1020
01:03:16,140 --> 01:03:18,570
I think the other thing
is that you're more open.
1021
01:03:18,580 --> 01:03:22,100
So like when I go to something
like that, if I'm at, it
1022
01:03:22,180 --> 01:03:24,029
feeds you in a different way.
1023
01:03:25,130 --> 01:03:27,140
So nature, it's like being in nature.
1024
01:03:27,170 --> 01:03:29,519
It's like you, it feeds you differently.
1025
01:03:30,245 --> 01:03:32,135
If you're open to being fed by it.
1026
01:03:32,165 --> 01:03:37,125
And I know that for me, uh, and
culture is like food or like
1027
01:03:37,125 --> 01:03:39,055
medicine, nature's like medicine.
1028
01:03:39,385 --> 01:03:42,465
And I know that because, because of death.
1029
01:03:43,624 --> 01:03:50,075
So I think it is about making sure
a lot, like the thing it's, it's,
1030
01:03:52,714 --> 01:03:55,255
it's giving access to yourself.
1031
01:03:55,605 --> 01:04:00,965
It's like, for those things to come,
to come in and do their work in you.
1032
01:04:01,455 --> 01:04:04,825
Like, so I don't know
if that makes sense, but
1033
01:04:05,015 --> 01:04:05,855
Catherine: no, no, it does.
1034
01:04:05,875 --> 01:04:06,445
It totally.
1035
01:04:06,455 --> 01:04:09,225
Well, for me, for me,
it totally makes sense.
1036
01:04:09,285 --> 01:04:13,014
But at the same time, you know, you're
talking to someone who worked in.
1037
01:04:13,305 --> 01:04:16,765
Programming and interpretation
in a botanic garden for 13 years.
1038
01:04:16,765 --> 01:04:17,563
You
1039
01:04:17,563 --> 01:04:20,756
Jenny: get it, you get
1040
01:04:20,756 --> 01:04:21,554
Catherine: it.
1041
01:04:22,615 --> 01:04:26,374
But I think that, is that the
reason why I noticed that you've
1042
01:04:26,375 --> 01:04:28,904
got a artist in residency program?
1043
01:04:29,355 --> 01:04:32,895
Is, is that the reason why you've
used that to perhaps also tap
1044
01:04:32,925 --> 01:04:37,125
into the way in which, uh, can
open those doors and connect
1045
01:04:37,615 --> 01:04:37,665
Jenny: people?
1046
01:04:38,235 --> 01:04:43,110
I think the artist in residence program,
we, you know, We have, we don't have
1047
01:04:43,110 --> 01:04:45,779
an artist in residence at the moment
because we've got to get funding for
1048
01:04:45,780 --> 01:04:52,500
that, but we have, uh, our aftercare
program is an arts, we have a choir
1049
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:59,169
and we have a, uh, making group,
like a, it's like a sewing group,
1050
01:04:59,170 --> 01:05:01,219
but it's much more complex than this.
1051
01:05:01,259 --> 01:05:03,000
Like, it's like a group that get together.
1052
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:07,910
So there are two aftercare projects so
that people can come and sing because
1053
01:05:07,910 --> 01:05:10,080
there's a lot of talking in the world.
1054
01:05:10,695 --> 01:05:14,305
You know, you can go and get it,
have some good, but so it's really,
1055
01:05:14,305 --> 01:05:18,705
this is really about offering
a, an outlet for expression.
1056
01:05:19,664 --> 01:05:23,715
And yes, that is why, that's
probably is why, but the
1057
01:05:23,715 --> 01:05:25,435
musical, so we have musicians.
1058
01:05:25,955 --> 01:05:30,375
We have, so people, if they want to,
there's an offering in tender that people,
1059
01:05:30,685 --> 01:05:34,270
you know, even from, People might say
they want somebody to come and sing in the
1060
01:05:34,270 --> 01:05:38,420
mortuary, and we've had that happen, that
would, you know, from, they'll pay for
1061
01:05:38,460 --> 01:05:42,830
the musician to come in and sing while the
boat, while we're wrapping somebody, or,
1062
01:05:42,940 --> 01:05:50,140
uh, or they'll, they'll want to, um, paint
a coffin, and they want some sort of, you
1063
01:05:50,140 --> 01:05:54,450
know, assistance with that, or they want
to create a ceremony, and they'll get
1064
01:05:54,540 --> 01:05:56,520
some assistance with creating a ceremony.
1065
01:05:56,850 --> 01:05:59,680
So it's really like having
access to people in the
1066
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:01,869
community who people can come.
1067
01:06:02,425 --> 01:06:07,185
And get some assistance for, and I think
it's also really trying, we've got a
1068
01:06:07,195 --> 01:06:12,265
book, it's on the website as well, called
Ceremony, and it's really about saying
1069
01:06:13,645 --> 01:06:15,905
everything, anything can be a ceremony.
1070
01:06:15,905 --> 01:06:18,845
It's what, it's, it's really
about what your intention is.
1071
01:06:18,855 --> 01:06:26,045
So you could, instead of having a funeral,
you could have dinner, you know, and you,
1072
01:06:26,115 --> 01:06:30,205
uh, could all sit around and have dinner,
the body can be there, then you can.
1073
01:06:30,575 --> 01:06:35,385
Take the body to the crematorium, or
lunch, or you could have a picnic,
1074
01:06:35,515 --> 01:06:39,555
or you could have, it doesn't matter
what you're doing, what matters,
1075
01:06:39,585 --> 01:06:43,574
or you could make a shrine, or you
could sew something together, or
1076
01:06:43,574 --> 01:06:45,645
you could write a song together.
1077
01:06:46,414 --> 01:06:51,205
But whatever that is, that's a
ceremony if you make it a ceremony.
1078
01:06:51,905 --> 01:06:57,090
So we don't have to sit in a church, we
don't have to, You know, we don't have
1079
01:06:57,120 --> 01:06:58,290
to do anything we don't want to do.
1080
01:06:58,290 --> 01:07:02,350
We can just sit in silence, you know,
and quite a few people come into tender.
1081
01:07:02,650 --> 01:07:04,320
They'll wash and dress people.
1082
01:07:04,590 --> 01:07:07,590
They'll, everyone will be there.
1083
01:07:07,909 --> 01:07:10,080
They'll have a cup of tea.
1084
01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:12,430
They'll have a bit of cake, they'll talk.
1085
01:07:12,710 --> 01:07:17,369
And then at some point they'll go, we're
ready and we'll put the lid on the coffin.
1086
01:07:17,460 --> 01:07:17,970
They're done.
1087
01:07:18,020 --> 01:07:20,520
That's the ceremony, you know?
1088
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:24,570
So I think it's that opening things up to.
1089
01:07:25,205 --> 01:07:30,695
It's again what people, opening people's
up, people up to their own imagination
1090
01:07:30,705 --> 01:07:37,320
about what they want, is really, uh, Love,
I mean, people are amazing what they do.
1091
01:07:38,300 --> 01:07:42,230
And even like, not having a funeral
celebrant, but having them do their
1092
01:07:42,270 --> 01:07:49,820
own funeral, like, you know, I've been
to some amazing funerals where people
1093
01:07:49,820 --> 01:07:52,359
have done their own funerals, I think.
1094
01:07:52,819 --> 01:07:58,520
We also have a, uh, Memorial picnic, or
which came from Zenith Farago, a lot of
1095
01:07:58,550 --> 01:08:03,030
the stuff that we've done, Zenith has
done in the past and still does, and
1096
01:08:03,030 --> 01:08:07,239
has helped our community and trained
our community, because she's incredible.
1097
01:08:07,610 --> 01:08:12,909
And, you know, it's not, and it's
the same with Lynette, really, a lot
1098
01:08:12,910 --> 01:08:18,300
of her visionary, uh, imagining and
telling a story and getting to the
1099
01:08:18,300 --> 01:08:20,669
heart of a story is formed who we are.
1100
01:08:20,850 --> 01:08:23,810
You know, so I think
certainly it's not me.
1101
01:08:23,860 --> 01:08:25,670
It's not just, you know,
I've been a part of it.
1102
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:30,260
It's not, you know, it's
not, uh, it never is nothing.
1103
01:08:30,530 --> 01:08:33,039
There's no such thing
as a founder, really.
1104
01:08:33,219 --> 01:08:39,249
There's only, there's only somebody,
there's only like everyone doing it
1105
01:08:39,249 --> 01:08:44,630
together because, you know, it can't be
about one person because if that something
1106
01:08:44,630 --> 01:08:49,510
happens to that one person, then it's
just, actually, it's just not possible.
1107
01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:50,620
It's not possible.
1108
01:08:51,100 --> 01:08:52,710
That, that, you know, that that happens.
1109
01:08:53,050 --> 01:08:57,210
But we have a memorial event, we
have a memorial, uh, picnic, because
1110
01:08:57,210 --> 01:08:58,550
Zenith has been doing that for years.
1111
01:08:58,550 --> 01:09:00,280
We've done it as part of our practice.
1112
01:09:00,910 --> 01:09:05,569
But we also, at our memorial event,
we, everyone brings the food of the
1113
01:09:05,590 --> 01:09:11,119
person that's died, like their favorite
food, and they write a little card.
1114
01:09:11,969 --> 01:09:13,419
And they write a little card.
1115
01:09:13,859 --> 01:09:14,669
It's so great.
1116
01:09:14,689 --> 01:09:18,720
It's so funny, because like there's,
and then people put it on the table,
1117
01:09:18,750 --> 01:09:21,770
and it's the most eclectic table.
1118
01:09:22,195 --> 01:09:25,985
There's like Kentucky Fried
Chicken and Pikelets and Prawns
1119
01:09:26,035 --> 01:09:29,195
and Roast Lamb and Fairy Bread.
1120
01:09:29,355 --> 01:09:30,305
It's hilarious.
1121
01:09:30,315 --> 01:09:31,355
It's hilarious.
1122
01:09:31,915 --> 01:09:36,885
But you're eating, but people, I would
really love, I mean, if I was going
1123
01:09:36,885 --> 01:09:40,335
to do a national event, it would be a
national, let's cook the food of you.
1124
01:09:40,364 --> 01:09:42,914
In fact, we might do that
in a couple of years.
1125
01:09:42,914 --> 01:09:44,454
Let's cook the food of your person.
1126
01:09:44,750 --> 01:09:49,680
event, because everything is, and the
reason I've thought of that was that
1127
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:54,120
after my mother died, suddenly, my
mother was not a very good cook, but
1128
01:09:54,120 --> 01:10:00,059
she could cook spaghetti bolognese,
and, and about after my mother died,
1129
01:10:00,060 --> 01:10:05,230
suddenly, like, You know, I don't even
like spaghetti bolognese, but I cooked
1130
01:10:05,250 --> 01:10:07,190
spaghetti bolognese maybe a year later.
1131
01:10:07,190 --> 01:10:10,440
And my friend Lynette rang me and
said, I'm cooking spaghetti bolognese.
1132
01:10:10,780 --> 01:10:12,089
You know, that's your mother.
1133
01:10:12,440 --> 01:10:14,939
And my sister said, I'm
cooking spaghetti bolognese.
1134
01:10:14,940 --> 01:10:16,640
It was like my mother had sort of gone.
1135
01:10:17,990 --> 01:10:18,690
I would look.
1136
01:10:19,350 --> 01:10:20,310
Yeah, right?
1137
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:25,950
So, but what that does is bring those
people so close to you, you know,
1138
01:10:26,620 --> 01:10:29,610
often people are up, you know, when
they come to the picnic, they're like,
1139
01:10:29,660 --> 01:10:34,599
Oh, I've been up all night baking
Nan's cookies, crying into the batter.
1140
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:36,840
Catherine: So special.
1141
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:42,840
I, my, one of my very first podcasts I
did was with a friend of mine that I went
1142
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:47,949
to school with and she showed me the item
that she received from, that she inherited
1143
01:10:47,949 --> 01:10:50,130
or, or, or got from when her mum died.
1144
01:10:50,130 --> 01:10:54,510
And that was the icing sugar bowl
that she always had done the icing
1145
01:10:54,580 --> 01:10:56,750
sugar for the birthday cakes.
1146
01:10:56,780 --> 01:10:58,140
And that is her thing.
1147
01:10:58,170 --> 01:11:05,145
And that is, She continued that tradition
with her children and we have a dish that
1148
01:11:05,145 --> 01:11:12,305
we, we actually call mussels allodora, uh,
because it was, uh, it's a Greek dish that
1149
01:11:12,315 --> 01:11:16,995
you, well, I don't know what the origin is
Greek, but it was my Greek girlfriend and
1150
01:11:17,024 --> 01:11:18,319
her Greek mother that It's really good.
1151
01:11:18,470 --> 01:11:23,080
Always cooked it and it was, you
know, just mussels, rice, white wine,
1152
01:11:23,130 --> 01:11:26,570
the, the, it goes, the mussels open
up, the rice goes in the mussels.
1153
01:11:26,820 --> 01:11:32,000
And every time we cook it, we actually
send a photo to my girlfriend and in, in
1154
01:11:32,039 --> 01:11:37,139
homage to her mother, you know, like there
is something so beautiful about that.
1155
01:11:37,140 --> 01:11:37,839
So.
1156
01:11:38,140 --> 01:11:42,577
I'm, I'm going to be your
first attendee at the picnic.
1157
01:11:42,577 --> 01:11:43,210
Well,
1158
01:11:43,210 --> 01:11:44,474
Jenny: it's happening.
1159
01:11:44,474 --> 01:11:48,360
I actually, funnily enough, this year,
I can't go because I've got to do
1160
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:49,619
something else, but it's on every year.
1161
01:11:49,619 --> 01:11:50,650
I'll send you an invite.
1162
01:11:50,989 --> 01:11:56,280
The invite will be, anybody can
come, but it is a really, uh, it's
1163
01:11:56,280 --> 01:11:58,040
always at Mount Kira Scout Camp.
1164
01:11:58,090 --> 01:12:05,720
I think the other thing to say about this
whole thing is about nature, is really
1165
01:12:05,740 --> 01:12:13,025
about, you know, Access to nature, and
in all of the funeral homes that we,
1166
01:12:13,445 --> 01:12:18,215
that we have, we're trying to say, make
sure in the mortuary you can see the sky,
1167
01:12:18,455 --> 01:12:25,104
or make sure you can go into a garden,
because, because nature will bring us
1168
01:12:25,104 --> 01:12:31,905
back to life all the time, and that, it's
so, you know, and often, And often when
1169
01:12:31,905 --> 01:12:35,865
people, like when we do a ceremony, when
I used to do ceremonies, I don't do many
1170
01:12:35,865 --> 01:12:40,795
anymore, but you know, we always tell the
story of the death, we always say this
1171
01:12:40,795 --> 01:12:42,805
is what happened for a couple of reasons.
1172
01:12:43,135 --> 01:12:47,434
And that's another wisdom of Zenith
Virago is actually to say, I'm going to
1173
01:12:47,445 --> 01:12:49,535
stop everybody wondering what happened.
1174
01:12:49,565 --> 01:12:50,865
I'm going to tell you what happened.
1175
01:12:51,405 --> 01:12:54,645
And so no matter what's happened,
if it's when someone chose to end
1176
01:12:54,645 --> 01:12:58,169
their own life or when it's a car
accident or when it's a death.
1177
01:12:58,580 --> 01:13:00,330
expected death or an unexpected death.
1178
01:13:02,440 --> 01:13:04,690
Often when you're getting that story,
when you're saying to the person,
1179
01:13:04,690 --> 01:13:05,960
can you tell me what happened?
1180
01:13:05,980 --> 01:13:08,450
Cause you've got to get,
find out what happened.
1181
01:13:08,770 --> 01:13:11,800
Then you're sitting with
somebody and you say, and then
1182
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:12,960
they say, and then they died.
1183
01:13:12,970 --> 01:13:14,730
And then you say, and then what happened?
1184
01:13:15,100 --> 01:13:17,359
And I tell you, something always happens.
1185
01:13:17,780 --> 01:13:22,590
They go, Oh, one woman said to
me, Oh, a flock of birds landed
1186
01:13:22,590 --> 01:13:26,690
on the windowsill or not just one
bird, a whole lot of birds, right?
1187
01:13:27,060 --> 01:13:29,960
Or there was a storm or the sun came out.
1188
01:13:30,500 --> 01:13:30,950
Because
1189
01:13:33,430 --> 01:13:38,470
And so what happens then, the
story ends with back into life.
1190
01:13:39,710 --> 01:13:43,009
So it's just a really helpful
thing to get people, well, to
1191
01:13:43,020 --> 01:13:50,370
remind people to remember their own
story about when someone has died.
1192
01:13:50,390 --> 01:13:54,190
Not always something happens, but
honestly, mostly something will
1193
01:13:54,190 --> 01:13:59,170
either happen then, or in a couple,
or when they walk outside, or the
1194
01:13:59,170 --> 01:14:01,330
next morning, they're in the garden.
1195
01:14:02,210 --> 01:14:08,200
But if they are aware to look
for it, something, nature
1196
01:14:08,200 --> 01:14:09,500
will give them something.
1197
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:14,250
And that's why when, when we're
talking to cemeteries now, I'm always
1198
01:14:14,260 --> 01:14:19,019
saying to them, please put an outdoor
ceremony space in your cemetery.
1199
01:14:19,260 --> 01:14:20,120
Please do that.
1200
01:14:20,170 --> 01:14:27,840
Because that's just, It's so
helpful to have something in the
1201
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:31,380
middle of life and that it's just
so helpful to do that for people.
1202
01:14:33,580 --> 01:14:34,080
Catherine: It is.
1203
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:36,669
I totally agree with you.
1204
01:14:36,789 --> 01:14:43,760
I remember when my husband's father
died and I was pregnant with our son
1205
01:14:43,870 --> 01:14:46,809
and it became all about rainbows.
1206
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:47,970
Yeah.
1207
01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:53,880
And he was, he was palliative, uh,
for a period of time and rainbows
1208
01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:56,280
became the thing that represented him.
1209
01:14:56,280 --> 01:14:59,610
And yeah, when he died, we saw a rainbow.
1210
01:14:59,615 --> 01:15:05,070
It, it is really uncanny because it does
actually just, you know, even though
1211
01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:10,670
it is about his death, it is also so
much about what's still here and what
1212
01:15:10,670 --> 01:15:12,290
you still can connect with, you know?
1213
01:15:12,410 --> 01:15:12,740
Jenny: Yeah.
1214
01:15:13,150 --> 01:15:15,770
But if we are in it.
1215
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:21,140
If we're allowed to have a process,
we can remember it, you know, we can,
1216
01:15:21,500 --> 01:15:27,300
yeah, we can make sure we keep it, keep
the treasure, you know, I don't know.
1217
01:15:28,619 --> 01:15:33,380
It just happens so often that
you have to say, uh, you know,
1218
01:15:33,389 --> 01:15:36,379
nature really plays her part.
1219
01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:42,050
If we can, if we can, if we can let,
if we, if we can let her really.
1220
01:15:42,855 --> 01:15:43,105
Yeah,
1221
01:15:43,485 --> 01:15:47,615
Catherine: and I think that's why, you
know, in First Nations people across the
1222
01:15:47,615 --> 01:15:53,875
world, you know, nature is always, uh, the
big truth teller or the one of significant
1223
01:15:53,875 --> 01:15:58,264
times, because when nature changes, that's
when it signifies something, you know.
1224
01:15:58,264 --> 01:15:59,144
Jenny: Absolutely.
1225
01:15:59,215 --> 01:16:01,839
And, and, and look, I think.
1226
01:16:02,500 --> 01:16:06,160
I think really with tender,
it's not rocket science tender.
1227
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:10,780
It's just this simple thing
with reconnecting people
1228
01:16:10,780 --> 01:16:13,490
with their own intelligence.
1229
01:16:13,620 --> 01:16:20,399
And I mean, deep intelligence about
this, you know, with, you know, you could
1230
01:16:20,399 --> 01:16:25,230
say spirit, you could say, you know,
whatever it is in people, but there's
1231
01:16:25,230 --> 01:16:28,380
a deep knowing in, in us about it.
1232
01:16:28,410 --> 01:16:35,240
And, and, uh, once, once people can
move through their fear about it.
1233
01:16:36,535 --> 01:16:39,785
You know, and they can, you know, we're
never going to get rid of fear about
1234
01:16:39,785 --> 01:16:43,725
anything, you can just go and be afraid of
something else, you know, but you might as
1235
01:16:43,725 --> 01:16:49,815
well, you might as well not remain afraid
of the same thing all the time, you know,
1236
01:16:49,835 --> 01:16:56,385
it's like, anyway, I think that, that's
why it can't be claimed as anybody's idea,
1237
01:16:56,435 --> 01:16:59,085
truthfully, is that it's everybody's idea.
1238
01:16:59,110 --> 01:17:00,589
And
1239
01:17:01,170 --> 01:17:06,570
Catherine: I think, I think what you
were referring to about your friend
1240
01:17:06,570 --> 01:17:11,960
Lynette Walworth, you know, and her
saying when they see the film, you know,
1241
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:17,009
and let's be honest, the film was, was
aired at the Adelaide Film Festival.
1242
01:17:17,010 --> 01:17:22,880
So, you know, it was pretty prominent,
but the storytelling and the
1243
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:25,550
narrative of that particular film.
1244
01:17:26,540 --> 01:17:30,630
is very engaging, but it's also
very, very personal as well.
1245
01:17:30,650 --> 01:17:35,070
You know, it was the unexpected
personal challenges that you also
1246
01:17:35,070 --> 01:17:36,760
went through as part of that.
1247
01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:41,290
And people can, can read the, you know,
about the milk film and we can send
1248
01:17:41,290 --> 01:17:43,300
a link to people on the show notes.
1249
01:17:43,540 --> 01:17:47,859
So that was also that insight
that I think that people connected
1250
01:17:47,859 --> 01:17:49,249
with the fact that it was real.
1251
01:17:49,819 --> 01:17:53,169
And I think when you're
connecting to people.
1252
01:17:53,830 --> 01:17:54,750
And it's real.
1253
01:17:54,780 --> 01:17:57,920
I think that that's a
really powerful thing.
1254
01:17:58,830 --> 01:18:04,990
And you've, the, the, the story of Tender
Funerals is, is really well publicised.
1255
01:18:05,010 --> 01:18:08,310
You know, you've been on
ABC's Australian Story.
1256
01:18:08,319 --> 01:18:11,200
You've been on ABC Conversations
with Richard Feidler.
1257
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:14,750
But what do you personally take away?
1258
01:18:14,975 --> 01:18:18,745
after this amount of time and
it may change, but up until this
1259
01:18:18,745 --> 01:18:21,435
point, what do you think has been
your greatest success, Jenny?
1260
01:18:22,865 --> 01:18:25,205
Jenny: Uh, oh, it's so interesting.
1261
01:18:26,325 --> 01:18:29,415
I honestly don't think
it's my success, honestly.
1262
01:18:29,474 --> 01:18:34,555
I think, I think, I think what I'm,
1263
01:18:38,575 --> 01:18:40,174
I don't know the answer to that question.
1264
01:18:40,194 --> 01:18:41,759
I, because I think it's,
1265
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:48,720
It's like Tender wanted to be,
I mean, Tender wanted to be born
1266
01:18:48,950 --> 01:18:50,810
and, you know, it wanted to happen.
1267
01:18:51,650 --> 01:18:53,240
Just somehow it wanted to happen.
1268
01:18:53,559 --> 01:18:55,280
And so,
1269
01:18:57,949 --> 01:19:01,940
I don't know, maybe it, it's, I really
don't know the answer to the question.
1270
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:03,180
That's the greatest success.
1271
01:19:03,589 --> 01:19:07,610
Look, for me, the greatest success
hasn't, it would be a system change
1272
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:09,790
for me, that this became ordinary.
1273
01:19:10,105 --> 01:19:15,635
that deaf became an ordinary
and natural part of our lives.
1274
01:19:15,635 --> 01:19:21,555
And for me, that's got to do with living
in a culture where people are grown up.
1275
01:19:21,615 --> 01:19:23,145
You know, this is our job.
1276
01:19:23,615 --> 01:19:24,625
We can do it.
1277
01:19:24,894 --> 01:19:25,895
We're capable.
1278
01:19:26,735 --> 01:19:30,675
And That, for me, would change
everything about the world,
1279
01:19:32,585 --> 01:19:34,115
about the world we live in.
1280
01:19:34,235 --> 01:19:38,474
So my motivation for doing it,
probably for keep doing it, is that,
1281
01:19:38,545 --> 01:19:40,345
actually, that I think part of,
1282
01:19:42,925 --> 01:19:47,944
part of what we need in the world
is for what I feel, I, the world,
1283
01:19:47,985 --> 01:19:49,924
I, I want to live in the world.
1284
01:19:50,024 --> 01:19:51,425
I want to live in that world.
1285
01:19:51,945 --> 01:19:57,595
So I can't just expect somebody
else to create that for me.
1286
01:19:57,655 --> 01:19:59,395
I've got, I want to live in that world.
1287
01:19:59,685 --> 01:20:01,855
So I should contribute.
1288
01:20:02,805 --> 01:20:05,915
to that world being, uh,
1289
01:20:08,305 --> 01:20:09,575
coming into being.
1290
01:20:10,035 --> 01:20:14,784
And part of that is about, you know,
one of the things is to, is for us to
1291
01:20:14,805 --> 01:20:20,190
realize that, you know, That all, that
life is precious and short, we're gonna
1292
01:20:20,190 --> 01:20:26,870
die, and at some, and so let's live
our lives, and let's, and let's, uh,
1293
01:20:29,690 --> 01:20:36,679
let's be sort of grown up about taking
care about that, what life, what, what
1294
01:20:36,690 --> 01:20:40,820
leaving a healthy planet behind means,
what, what is our, it's one of our
1295
01:20:40,820 --> 01:20:42,550
responsibilities, caring for our dead.
1296
01:20:43,260 --> 01:20:45,270
The other one is not
using all the resources.
1297
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:49,890
For the children, you know, let's
leave something for the children.
1298
01:20:50,110 --> 01:20:53,590
So, I think that's the sort of
world I want to live in, and so
1299
01:20:53,610 --> 01:20:55,380
this is my contribution to that.
1300
01:20:55,389 --> 01:21:00,419
And we're not anywhere near that,
and that won't happen in my lifetime,
1301
01:21:00,419 --> 01:21:06,619
but I'm very happy to be part of
a movement for system change, uh,
1302
01:21:07,280 --> 01:21:12,640
and I've been incredibly blessed by
having people around me, my family.
1303
01:21:13,050 --> 01:21:17,450
You know, my partner, honestly, is
like, in the first 12 months of tenure,
1304
01:21:17,510 --> 01:21:20,440
I've been like, we need getting him
up in the middle of the night to
1305
01:21:20,440 --> 01:21:22,110
go and pick somebody up who died.
1306
01:21:22,120 --> 01:21:25,060
He's like, I don't know where this
was in the contract, actually.
1307
01:21:25,089 --> 01:21:30,250
Like, you know, I'm like, well, just shut
up and get in the car with me, you know?
1308
01:21:30,620 --> 01:21:31,579
So it's like that.
1309
01:21:31,579 --> 01:21:32,900
It's like, we're all in it together.
1310
01:21:32,939 --> 01:21:37,590
But you know, Lynette making that
film and she made that film with the
1311
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:41,709
conscious idea that we would get funding.
1312
01:21:42,165 --> 01:21:46,145
If we made that film and we got funding
from, and the, when we were funded, the
1313
01:21:46,145 --> 01:21:50,715
people who watched, had watched the film
who funded us in the very first tender.
1314
01:21:51,114 --> 01:21:55,234
So, it's all of that, it's all of that
and, and Zenith having done that work
1315
01:21:55,234 --> 01:21:59,635
and having just been, you know, I rang
Zenith and said, we want to do this.
1316
01:22:00,285 --> 01:22:01,455
And can you help me?
1317
01:22:01,465 --> 01:22:04,565
And she said, if you pick me up
from the airport and drive me to.
1318
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:08,250
The Southern Highlands, I'll
tell you everything I know.
1319
01:22:08,570 --> 01:22:10,820
And she did, and we've
been friends ever since.
1320
01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:12,820
Catherine: Oh, that's amazing.
1321
01:22:13,670 --> 01:22:14,900
Jenny: So that's what it's like.
1322
01:22:15,909 --> 01:22:19,010
So that's why I'm saying
it's not any one person.
1323
01:22:19,100 --> 01:22:20,519
It's like all of us together.
1324
01:22:20,529 --> 01:22:24,949
And that continues with all of these
incredible, most people who are
1325
01:22:24,949 --> 01:22:29,579
starting tenders work for four years
voluntarily to start a tender to give
1326
01:22:29,579 --> 01:22:34,340
their community this gift that the
community doesn't think they need
1327
01:22:34,490 --> 01:22:36,280
until the minute that they need it.
1328
01:22:37,935 --> 01:22:45,345
That's, they're all visionary people, they
all can, they all can imagine creating
1329
01:22:45,345 --> 01:22:47,005
something like that, that people need.
1330
01:22:47,035 --> 01:22:47,404
That's awesome.
1331
01:22:48,345 --> 01:22:53,145
Extraordinary, they're extraordinary
people, you know, so that's
1332
01:22:53,145 --> 01:22:59,545
why I would say it's not, I'm
the least of them, truthfully.
1333
01:22:59,795 --> 01:23:04,915
And that's not me being like, oh, you
know, it's just me being, uh, uh, you
1334
01:23:05,095 --> 01:23:06,755
can't do anything like this on your own.
1335
01:23:08,415 --> 01:23:13,150
Catherine: Well, Jetty, I think
that, um, You're pretty amazing for
1336
01:23:13,660 --> 01:23:19,270
providing a framework in which people
can, you know, realize their full
1337
01:23:19,280 --> 01:23:25,710
potential and support what the ideals
and values of tender funerals are.
1338
01:23:26,160 --> 01:23:28,409
And I can't thank you
enough for your time today.
1339
01:23:28,409 --> 01:23:29,449
It's been really beautiful.
1340
01:23:29,759 --> 01:23:30,300
Jenny: Thank you.
1341
01:23:30,310 --> 01:23:31,830
Thank you for the opportunity.
1342
01:23:31,860 --> 01:23:33,635
And uh, I appreciate it.
1343
01:23:36,215 --> 01:23:39,665
Catherine: We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,
1344
01:23:39,965 --> 01:23:41,735
brought to you by Critical Info.
1345
01:23:42,475 --> 01:23:46,735
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new, or were touched by a story you
1346
01:23:46,735 --> 01:23:48,535
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1347
01:23:48,805 --> 01:23:52,405
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1348
01:23:52,405 --> 01:23:54,145
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1349
01:23:54,195 --> 01:23:58,485
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1350
01:23:58,485 --> 01:24:00,225
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1351
01:24:00,525 --> 01:24:01,845
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1352
01:24:01,995 --> 01:24:03,015
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1353
01:24:03,020 --> 01:24:06,915
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01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:13,125
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