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Jenny: The biggest thing I could say is
that honestly being round dead is the

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biggest connector to life that I've ever
experienced because it does catapult

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you to the center of life and why
would you not take up that opportunity

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to have that experience of aliveness.

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Catherine: Welcome to Don't Be
Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging

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open conversations about dying
and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Katherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death back to life.

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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin nations

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and recognizes their connection
to land, sea, and community.

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We pay our respects to their elders,
past, present, and emerging, and

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extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Jennifer Briscoe Hoff is the
founder and chief executive officer

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of Tender Funerals Australia.

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As described on their website, Tender
Funerals is a not for profit funeral

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service model, offering choice and
transparency in delivering personalized,

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meaningful, and affordable funerals.

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Their vision is for all
Australians to have access to

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affordable, meaningful funerals.

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Thank you for joining us, Jenny.

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Jenny: Oh, it's my pleasure, Catherine.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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Catherine: Now tell me, the original
um, tender funerals, Illawarra

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and Sydney, was established in
2016 Port Kembla, New South Wales.

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And it was established by our
community project to provide

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funeral services for those in need.

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What is our community project and
how did the idea for tender funerals

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Jenny: come about?

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Thank you very much.

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So our community project is a
community development organisation

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in Port Kembla, and really it, it
has been, it has been able to develop

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a number of different projects.

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It's like, it's, uh, because,
uh, the team there was very open.

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To new ideas, the board
was very open to new ideas.

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I was the general manager of that
organization and, uh, I think they just

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were quite courageous in the things
that they said yes to over the years.

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And tender funerals was
one of those things.

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And it sort of started as a, uh, it
started because I, when my mother

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died, I was really surprised.

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Shocked by the cost of the funeral and
also by my own response to that process,

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even though I'd been around a lot of
death and death in the past, I'd worked

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at Ronald McDonald House, I'd been a
coordinator of a canteen, I had given,

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uh, many eulogies at many funerals, I
hadn't been and sort of interacted that

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much with the sort of back end of funerals
and with my mother's funeral, I was quite

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surprised and probably, you know, You
know, really it was just one of those

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moments where sort of the worlds collide
and I was in a situation where I was

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working in a very disadvantaged community
and we got a bill for my mother's

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funeral, I think it was for about 11,
000 and we already owned the burial pot.

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Yeah, so we owned the burial pot.

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My sister in law did the flowers.

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We, we had one hearse, we didn't have
a funeral car, it was in a church and

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we, and we still got this, uh, bill and
the funeral company that we used on my

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mother's memorial card, which we designed
and took to the printer and did all that.

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They put their advertising on that.

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So I think at that point I sort of, uh,
woke up a little bit in the process,

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but it was really thinking about.

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We, you know, when somebody dies, if
there's an estate, then the funeral

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can be paid for out of the estate.

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So we didn't pay that 11, 000,
although in some ways we did, it

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was out of my mother's estate.

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But it did occur to me that if you
didn't have an estate, I don't know

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how you would pay that amount of money.

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So I suppose it was really that
I was in this position between

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these sort of worlds, in a way.

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And, uh, so that's how
the idea came about.

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Came about actually, it was just like,
Oh, this maybe we should think about

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doing a not for profit, uh, funeral
service and, and, and the organization

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was really supportive of that and
they wanted to do that, even though

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we didn't really know how to do that.

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So it took another seven years to do after
that, because we really didn't know, it

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was like, oh yeah, how hard can that be?

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Well, um, it was really hard.

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So, so yeah, that's how it happened.

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I think the thing to say about that,
that's, Interesting, though, in terms

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of doing something you've not done
before, or you don't know a lot about.

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In the end, that's a really great
process, because you don't know what

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you don't know, and you also don't
know how it's supposed, how people are

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going to tell you it's supposed to be.

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So we just designed a funeral
service that we thought should exist.

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that we thought we
needed in our community.

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And we didn't really look
at any other funerals.

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You know, we didn't really, I
mean, we did some training, mainly

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overseas, we did some training with
Zenith Borago here in Australia, but

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we didn't do traditional training.

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And so, I don't know, I really can't
tell you why we didn't, except it

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just didn't occur to me to do that.

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So, it was much more like we
followed our noses to develop

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something in collaboration with
people probably who were trying

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to do something for the community.

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Rather than with an industry, so I
think that's probably the important

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thing to say about to anybody who's
embarking on a new venture is that it

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sort of is better in lots of ways to

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go to not necessarily go to
what's already been done.

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Catherine: It's interesting that you
say that because, uh, embarking on that

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little, uh, that journey myself at the
moment, and it is really interesting

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when you have fresh eyes looking at an
industry or a project and, and yeah,

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it's, it's quite, Insightful, really,
what you can discover, because you're,

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you're not coming from, I suppose, the
industry norm or, or that background.

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So, I can certainly relate
to what you're referring to.

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Jenny: Yeah, I think the, I think the
interesting thing about an industry

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is that it, it doesn't just arrive,
it develops in response to things.

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And certainly the funeral industry
developed along a particular line.

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particular line in response to
a societal change, actually.

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So it's understandable where it went
in terms of its development because

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it really developed because people
needed to store and transport bodies.

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That's why it developed.

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So it's not surprising it turned into a,
that sort of logistical focused business.

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Although it is logistical focused in a
way, there's lots of logistics in it, but

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it's because In the past, families and
communities would look after their own

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people, the church, you know, then, you
know, they would keep the person at home,

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they would, the undertaker would come
and transport the body to the cemetery.

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Or the church.

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And so that's sort of
how that all happened.

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And then some things fell away.

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So what fell away was the
care for people at home.

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And so, you know, and, and the
word undertaker is a really

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beautiful word, actually.

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It means to make a promise to make, I
undertake to do this on your behalf.

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So it's a,

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it's quite a beautiful thing for
people to have done for others.

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But then it's about the
industrialization of that.

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is where we sort of lost something.

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So I think, I think that's the other
benefit of not knowing, like, because

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that sort of doesn't make sense the way it
happens until you know why it's like that.

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And then it does make complete sense.

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So anyway, you didn't ask that question.

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So

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Catherine: no, no, that's the, that's
the beauty of these things is that we

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can, we can go wherever we go, Jenny.

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So I don't apologize.

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Okay.

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Just something that, that you mentioned,
which I, I thought was, was interesting

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and obviously, uh, really calls out to
your experience before you started tender

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funerals, is the fact that you, you knew
that you could actually pay for your

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mother's funeral out of your estate.

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And that's something that
a lot of people don't know.

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So it really, it already shows that
you obviously had that, that, uh,

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That sort of knowledge and inclination
before you even started going down

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the path of, of tender funerals.

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Jenny: Let me just say, I probably,
I don't know if I did know, but I

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do, I think most funeral directors
give people that advice that, and you

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know, that advice can be used, you
know, that that advice is what it's

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the one thing that you can access a
bank account for when somebody dies.

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But it also means sometimes
that you might, you know,

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there is money there to spend.

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in that sense.

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And, uh, you know, so it's a
strange sort of, uh, it's not

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really going to cost you anything.

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Doesn't really matter.

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So why don't you do whatever?

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But I don't, I think most,
I don't think I knew that.

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I think the funeral company would have
told my brothers that at the time.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But I, I, but it is a thing that does help
people in those moments when they don't.

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When they think, Oh, I've got paper that's
been wrong, we don't have the money.

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But some, but truthfully, a lot of
people don't have, there's a lot of

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people in Australia who don't have,
uh, who, who aren't in that situation

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where there's money in the bank.

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Catherine: And that's it, isn't it?

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It relies on actually that cashflow being
there and accessible at that particular

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point when that, that person dies and,
and something that I've, I've quite a few

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times is the fact That we have attended
funerals of four people in the last 12

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months now who had to crowdfund for their
funerals or have friends put in funds

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to, to pay for those services because
there wasn't that cash at that time.

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So, and, and really that's.

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you know, coming back to tender
funerals in the services.

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So you're a not for profit
and, but you operate Tender

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Funerals Australia as franchises.

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So can you explain a little bit about
the social franchise model and, and

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the network that the members agree to?

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Jenny: Yeah, sure.

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So, you know, when we started tender,
uh, After we opened, we immediately had

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people from around the country saying,
well, we want to have a tender too.

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And I was a bit like, well,

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I don't, I'm not sure how to do that.

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And we haven't proven that
this model can work yet.

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So we didn't do it in the first,
we didn't, in that first couple

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of years, we just said, we need
to focus on what we're doing.

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We need to get everything.

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We need to be sure.

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That what we're doing can work
before we do any sort of replication.

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But then after four years,
those, uh, response, those

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requests just kept coming to us.

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And so I had, so we partnered with
Social Ventures Australia and to come up

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with, uh, a way of doing that actually.

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And.

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You know, it was sort of
interesting because I really

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wanted to have a license agreement.

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I was like, can't we just have
like a one page license agreement?

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Anyway, apparently you can't.

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So we, well you can't.

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You can't because in that
license agreement, you couldn't

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protect the business model.

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So there's some things you can do
in a franchise agreement that you

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can't do in a license agreement.

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So we would, that was
the advice we were given.

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So we, and you know, I didn't
particularly like the idea of a franchise.

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I was a bit like, you know, of course I
thought, but McDonald's and cookie cutter.

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So I was a bit like, oh, I, I
wasn't that happy with that.

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And so we decided that we would
develop a sort of, there's in

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Australia, there's no social franchise
framework, so there's franchise law.

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I've got the, the chair of our
board's a lawyer, so I've got

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three lawyers on our board.

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So the law part, they sort
of, uh, they've got that.

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So there's some things you have
to have in a franchise agreement.

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Now, I can't tell you off the top
of my head what those things are,

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but they've got to be in there.

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And so, but there's a whole lot of other
things that don't have to be in there.

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So we developed the franchise agreement
in collaboration with the communities

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that we were working with to say,
so it was more of a reciprocal.

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You know, we all need to share
this information with each other.

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You know, we all had to
be happy with the model.

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We all, there were things
that we had to agree on.

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So there's like 12 non negotiables in
the model and, and the rest of it, people

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can, you know, have flexibility with.

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And so we decided we
would do it like that.

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And it went backwards and
forwards and we developed.

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We developed this franchise
model and we also, on top of

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that, developed a network model.

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00:14:14,339 --> 00:14:21,099
So the network, anybody who's in this,
uh, ecosystem belongs to a network and

225
00:14:21,099 --> 00:14:25,279
that network meets, it's just gone to bi
monthly meetings that used to be monthly.

226
00:14:25,749 --> 00:14:30,745
It meets, you know, everyone's committed
to meeting and in that, Network people

227
00:14:30,745 --> 00:14:36,655
share ideas, they, uh, talk about what's
challenging them, they talk, they tell

228
00:14:36,655 --> 00:14:42,574
stories about stuff that's happened, and
they build, and they share their skills.

229
00:14:42,644 --> 00:14:47,594
So the idea of the network is to
build something that's not based in,

230
00:14:47,655 --> 00:14:49,644
that's, it's a strength based network.

231
00:14:49,644 --> 00:14:53,935
So it's, the idea is to build
something that's not dependent on any

232
00:14:54,624 --> 00:15:02,585
one organization or one person or,
um, It's, it's about creating a sort

233
00:15:02,585 --> 00:15:06,735
of a basket that can hold everybody
and that can support everybody.

234
00:15:07,385 --> 00:15:09,255
So that's really the network model.

235
00:15:09,255 --> 00:15:15,865
And that happens, you know, you know,
in those people, people, uh, in the, in

236
00:15:15,865 --> 00:15:17,684
the network, they do support each other.

237
00:15:17,715 --> 00:15:18,954
They talk to each other.

238
00:15:18,975 --> 00:15:19,964
They share ideas.

239
00:15:19,965 --> 00:15:22,425
If someone's done a good funding
application, they put in the

240
00:15:22,425 --> 00:15:25,465
drive and other people can
have a look at it and adapt it.

241
00:15:25,465 --> 00:15:29,145
If someone's done a good brochure,
then They can adapt that.

242
00:15:29,145 --> 00:15:32,465
So it's really about sharing
skills and resources and

243
00:15:32,465 --> 00:15:35,135
knowledge and getting support.

244
00:15:35,535 --> 00:15:35,765
Yeah.

245
00:15:35,765 --> 00:15:39,995
So that's, that answers your
question, but it's, it's a very

246
00:15:40,025 --> 00:15:42,665
organic, it's quite an organic model.

247
00:15:42,695 --> 00:15:47,155
And I'll just say one other thing
about the network is everybody in the

248
00:15:47,315 --> 00:15:49,695
system can attend the network meeting.

249
00:15:49,695 --> 00:15:55,445
So the boards can attend, the working
parties can attend, the managers can

250
00:15:55,445 --> 00:15:57,985
attend, the site leaders can attend, but.

251
00:15:58,315 --> 00:16:00,135
So you can have quite a
lot of people on that call.

252
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,950
There's only one person talking from
each group, so they can text each other

253
00:16:05,950 --> 00:16:09,470
and say, you know, Catherine wants me
to ask this question, but otherwise

254
00:16:09,470 --> 00:16:11,769
it would be impossible to manage that.

255
00:16:11,769 --> 00:16:15,989
So everyone's got a voice, but
the voices come through a person.

256
00:16:16,009 --> 00:16:20,479
I think the other thing to say about
that network is that it's not endless.

257
00:16:20,819 --> 00:16:23,660
Like it won't continually grow.

258
00:16:24,219 --> 00:16:28,449
So I think, you know, I think tender
funerals is a system change model.

259
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:34,579
And, you know, I think probably between
15 and 20 tenders would be enough in the

260
00:16:34,579 --> 00:16:40,179
system to, to still create a relational
model because it's a relational,

261
00:16:40,179 --> 00:16:44,129
not transactional model because any
bigger than that, you lose that.

262
00:16:44,339 --> 00:16:47,030
I think you lose, it becomes too big.

263
00:16:47,260 --> 00:16:50,545
So yeah, that's, it's,
That's the idea of it.

264
00:16:52,225 --> 00:16:55,665
Catherine: And Toi, what, when
you say relational model, as

265
00:16:55,665 --> 00:16:59,035
opposed to a transactional model,
can you just explain that too?

266
00:16:59,284 --> 00:17:02,344
Jenny: I think the thing is, for
us, it's got to be about being in

267
00:17:02,345 --> 00:17:07,085
relationship with each other, with,
and with the system that we're in.

268
00:17:07,565 --> 00:17:13,465
And that it's not necessarily that we
would expect to, uh, it's not about,

269
00:17:13,575 --> 00:17:18,405
that's, it's not, um, it's not for
the, you know, when you, when you

270
00:17:18,415 --> 00:17:20,974
have something that's transactions,
like, what am I going to get?

271
00:17:21,855 --> 00:17:24,355
I'm not going to, you know, I'm going to
give you this, but what am I going to get?

272
00:17:24,765 --> 00:17:28,145
In the tender model, it's much
more about, we're going to build

273
00:17:28,204 --> 00:17:29,845
relationships with each other.

274
00:17:30,385 --> 00:17:32,055
And the model is for.

275
00:17:32,775 --> 00:17:33,985
the system change.

276
00:17:34,145 --> 00:17:37,605
So everybody there understands
when they're in that, we've all

277
00:17:37,625 --> 00:17:39,365
got a common purpose in that.

278
00:17:39,395 --> 00:17:42,845
That's not necessarily about what
I give, I'm going to get back.

279
00:17:42,985 --> 00:17:45,925
It's about what I'm giving to the
system, belongs in the system.

280
00:17:46,995 --> 00:17:47,895
Does that make sense?

281
00:17:48,665 --> 00:17:49,685
Catherine: Yeah, it does.

282
00:17:49,734 --> 00:17:50,265
It does.

283
00:17:50,625 --> 00:17:55,025
And tell me in those early
stages, when you had first set up

284
00:17:55,335 --> 00:17:58,010
the first, um, tender funerals.

285
00:17:58,510 --> 00:18:02,520
What was it in that four years
that made it unique that people

286
00:18:02,530 --> 00:18:05,950
started coming to you going, we
want to do this in our community.

287
00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:08,200
Jenny: What was it that got them excited?

288
00:18:08,599 --> 00:18:12,780
Look, I think what got them excited
originally was the film and the film,

289
00:18:13,189 --> 00:18:17,409
because it was very hard to, I know it was
very hard to fund tender in the beginning.

290
00:18:18,149 --> 00:18:25,210
And, uh, so my best friend,
Lynette Wellworth, who's like a

291
00:18:25,210 --> 00:18:28,859
genius and a visionary artist, she
said, we'll have to make a film.

292
00:18:29,605 --> 00:18:33,104
And I was like, well, I don't
know what that's going to be about

293
00:18:33,185 --> 00:18:36,675
because really nothing's happening,
you know, just be about me getting

294
00:18:36,675 --> 00:18:38,854
rejections from funding applications.

295
00:18:39,124 --> 00:18:44,274
And anyway, she, of course, made this
beautiful, beautiful film called TENJA.

296
00:18:44,635 --> 00:18:49,324
And she said to me, you know, once people
see that, you know, Jane, once people

297
00:18:49,324 --> 00:18:52,404
see this, everyone's going to want one.

298
00:18:52,985 --> 00:18:53,554
And.

299
00:18:54,580 --> 00:18:56,760
That's what I mean, she's
visionary, I was like.

300
00:18:57,290 --> 00:19:02,332
Anyway, so of course that's what
happened, because what tender is

301
00:19:02,332 --> 00:19:05,990
about is our, is our humanity.

302
00:19:07,569 --> 00:19:09,110
And of course, we all have that.

303
00:19:09,370 --> 00:19:12,580
And so, when something speaks
to your humanity, then you.

304
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,430
Notice that something's
missing in the system.

305
00:19:16,450 --> 00:19:18,420
So you, so you want, you want that.

306
00:19:18,850 --> 00:19:23,250
And I think that's, I think
it's not, it's not necessarily

307
00:19:23,859 --> 00:19:25,879
explainable beyond that, actually.

308
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:30,409
I mean, there's the affordability
of it that people want, but there's

309
00:19:30,409 --> 00:19:35,480
the experience of it that people
miss, were missing, I think.

310
00:19:35,540 --> 00:19:38,500
And when they saw that it was, people
didn't know what was possible, but

311
00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:40,090
once they saw what was possible.

312
00:19:40,889 --> 00:19:43,530
Uh, they know, people know what they want.

313
00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:48,319
And I can say that now, even in the,
in the tender model, that, you know,

314
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:54,909
we, in the transparency of it, you
know, we, everybody, everybody is,

315
00:19:54,939 --> 00:19:58,159
you know, everything that happens
in tender is explained to people.

316
00:19:58,189 --> 00:20:01,369
So, you know, it's like, there's a
choice, would you like, this is the

317
00:20:01,379 --> 00:20:04,939
process with, you know, around the
mortuary care, would you like this

318
00:20:05,450 --> 00:20:06,730
mortuary care or not mortuary care?

319
00:20:06,730 --> 00:20:08,149
What's mortuary care?

320
00:20:08,620 --> 00:20:09,450
What does that involve?

321
00:20:09,490 --> 00:20:11,030
And there's an explanation about that.

322
00:20:11,145 --> 00:20:14,315
What that involves, you know, setting
the features, closing the mouth,

323
00:20:14,315 --> 00:20:16,405
closing the eyes, not doing that.

324
00:20:16,585 --> 00:20:20,535
If you, what does that
involve or suturing the mouth?

325
00:20:20,815 --> 00:20:26,745
And people are like, and it's not
like people don't know what they want.

326
00:20:26,865 --> 00:20:29,715
As soon as you say to them,
this is the process, they

327
00:20:29,715 --> 00:20:31,464
say, Oh, you have to do that.

328
00:20:31,845 --> 00:20:33,495
Oh, please don't do that.

329
00:20:35,035 --> 00:20:37,395
Like, it's not like we're stupid.

330
00:20:37,425 --> 00:20:38,524
We know what we want.

331
00:20:38,605 --> 00:20:40,105
And when we know the situation.

332
00:20:40,405 --> 00:20:43,405
So I think, and that's the whole thing.

333
00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:48,320
It hasn't been, it's, it hasn't been,
it's not that complicated actually.

334
00:20:48,889 --> 00:20:55,050
It's actually pretty simple that, uh,
you know, originally when we did this, we

335
00:20:55,050 --> 00:21:00,209
did a, uh, action research project with
TAFE, TAFE down here, TAFE Illawarra.

336
00:21:00,210 --> 00:21:04,390
And, you know, we've got all people,
the students got groups together and

337
00:21:04,390 --> 00:21:08,520
they asked questions and what came out
of that report was very interesting.

338
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:09,800
What they said was that they didn't.

339
00:21:10,115 --> 00:21:16,225
necessarily have a problem or
weren't necessarily dissatisfied

340
00:21:16,225 --> 00:21:18,614
with the funeral industry until
they knew what was possible.

341
00:21:20,965 --> 00:21:25,084
And once they knew what was
possible, they knew that they

342
00:21:25,084 --> 00:21:26,705
wanted to make their own decisions.

343
00:21:28,254 --> 00:21:31,574
So that's what was
interesting for me about that.

344
00:21:32,345 --> 00:21:36,625
And there were other things that were
like things like the process, you

345
00:21:36,625 --> 00:21:40,945
know, that you wouldn't about, you
know, slowing everything down, that

346
00:21:40,945 --> 00:21:44,895
you don't need to, you know, actually
have it all done and dusted in a week.

347
00:21:45,085 --> 00:21:46,825
You can take your time.

348
00:21:47,385 --> 00:21:52,045
And many times people have said to us
in that research, you know, how they

349
00:21:52,055 --> 00:21:57,865
would have, they were so, uh, funeral
directors had really, uh, in the

350
00:21:57,865 --> 00:22:01,244
industry had really been supportive
because they were really upset, you

351
00:22:01,244 --> 00:22:02,795
know, when they were talking to them.

352
00:22:03,475 --> 00:22:06,615
And then, you know, we would ask the
question, like how soon after that person

353
00:22:06,615 --> 00:22:07,945
died, did you speak to a funeral director?

354
00:22:07,955 --> 00:22:08,915
They'd say two hours.

355
00:22:08,915 --> 00:22:13,194
And then you'd say, well, what about.

356
00:22:13,425 --> 00:22:20,505
If you hadn't, if you just said, I want to
speak to you in two days, and most of them

357
00:22:20,505 --> 00:22:22,255
were like, oh, that would have been fine.

358
00:22:22,255 --> 00:22:22,965
I would have been fine.

359
00:22:24,845 --> 00:22:30,935
So there's, there's, and I don't think
that's conscious of the, of the industry.

360
00:22:30,965 --> 00:22:34,705
I just think it's something that,
that what we know is when something

361
00:22:34,705 --> 00:22:37,495
happens, we're in a different
state and that's a good state.

362
00:22:37,495 --> 00:22:38,965
We should be in that state.

363
00:22:39,065 --> 00:22:42,425
We should let ourselves have those
feelings, but that doesn't mean we

364
00:22:42,425 --> 00:22:45,955
don't automatically go and organize
it, do it, organize an event.

365
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,590
In that moment, you know, we
might want to, it's, it's, we

366
00:22:50,590 --> 00:22:54,060
might want to stretch it out and
let every, and, and let ourselves

367
00:22:54,060 --> 00:22:56,250
experience what's happening for us.

368
00:22:56,330 --> 00:22:58,789
Because the other thing people
do sometimes is when someone's

369
00:22:58,789 --> 00:23:04,069
dying, they might ring us and
say, you know, mom's dying.

370
00:23:04,079 --> 00:23:05,149
She's going to die.

371
00:23:05,810 --> 00:23:08,090
You know, we've been told she's going
to die in the next couple of hours.

372
00:23:09,780 --> 00:23:12,360
You don't need to have this
phone call now, because.

373
00:23:14,035 --> 00:23:16,825
You could have this phone call
later, go and be with your mom.

374
00:23:17,435 --> 00:23:17,705
You know?

375
00:23:17,735 --> 00:23:21,605
'cause this is precious time to
have, so sometimes people wanna jump

376
00:23:21,605 --> 00:23:27,795
over that dying to the funeral and
that's fine if that's, if people

377
00:23:27,795 --> 00:23:29,265
say, no, I wanna do this now.

378
00:23:29,355 --> 00:23:29,805
Sure.

379
00:23:29,865 --> 00:23:32,685
But it's good to be able to say,
you don't have to do it now.

380
00:23:32,715 --> 00:23:35,685
What's, what's gonna be the
best thing to do in this moment?

381
00:23:35,685 --> 00:23:38,055
That's not about us getting your business.

382
00:23:38,055 --> 00:23:40,665
You know, it's about you
having your experience.

383
00:23:40,755 --> 00:23:42,795
So it's all of those little things.

384
00:23:42,795 --> 00:23:43,875
It's not any one thing.

385
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:44,895
It's like, it's like.

386
00:23:46,005 --> 00:23:48,325
Lots of little things
that make a difference.

387
00:23:48,355 --> 00:23:50,375
I can't even remember the
question you asked me, Catherine.

388
00:23:50,375 --> 00:23:50,845
Sorry.

389
00:23:51,735 --> 00:23:52,835
Catherine: No, no, no, that's okay.

390
00:23:52,835 --> 00:23:55,385
That, that's my job to
keep us on, on task.

391
00:23:55,524 --> 00:24:00,264
It's really insightful what you were
saying in relation to, uh, what makes you

392
00:24:00,274 --> 00:24:06,184
unique and from the different explanations
that you're providing me is the fact

393
00:24:06,185 --> 00:24:11,355
that it seems to always come back to
providing people with the education

394
00:24:11,355 --> 00:24:13,475
so they can make informed choices.

395
00:24:14,665 --> 00:24:18,775
And that seems to be very much the
foundation of what you seem to be

396
00:24:18,775 --> 00:24:21,195
doing at every stage of the process.

397
00:24:21,375 --> 00:24:22,445
Jenny: Yeah, I think that's true.

398
00:24:22,465 --> 00:24:26,754
I think the other part of that is to
provide a model of continual choice.

399
00:24:27,394 --> 00:24:30,084
So, you can make this choice here.

400
00:24:30,515 --> 00:24:34,705
And you can change your mind,
and that often happens around

401
00:24:35,105 --> 00:24:36,765
the wash and dress of somebody.

402
00:24:36,775 --> 00:24:38,715
You know, it's like, do you
want, would you like to wash?

403
00:24:38,735 --> 00:24:41,545
And, you know, often people go,
no, I don't need to do that.

404
00:24:41,545 --> 00:24:46,685
And then maybe somebody will bring up,
say, actually, I thought about that.

405
00:24:47,285 --> 00:24:48,814
And I really do want to do that.

406
00:24:49,095 --> 00:24:54,545
So it's that thing about, You know, and
that is, and that creates a challenge

407
00:24:54,545 --> 00:24:59,645
sometimes to be flexible, but the fact
that people need to process what they're

408
00:24:59,645 --> 00:25:01,474
being told and they can change their mind.

409
00:25:01,475 --> 00:25:05,094
So some people come in, they want
to do everything and then, and then

410
00:25:05,095 --> 00:25:09,834
they go, actually, I'm tired, I don't
want to do it, you know, and other

411
00:25:09,834 --> 00:25:11,729
people come in not wanting to do it.

412
00:25:11,940 --> 00:25:14,050
Anything and end up doing everything.

413
00:25:14,370 --> 00:25:18,530
So it's like honoring the moment
or honoring the process that

414
00:25:18,530 --> 00:25:24,750
people are in and giving them time
and also giving people choice.

415
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,539
So it can be, not everybody
has to do everything.

416
00:25:27,539 --> 00:25:30,279
If one person in the family
wants to do the wash and dress

417
00:25:30,279 --> 00:25:33,350
and somebody else in the family
doesn't want to do it, it's fine.

418
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,580
Not everybody has to do
the same thing, you know?

419
00:25:36,690 --> 00:25:39,400
So it's really, really, really important.

420
00:25:40,450 --> 00:25:45,969
Letting people like as a group process
things, but also the individual people

421
00:25:45,969 --> 00:25:51,419
have different needs, like, and it's
about saying, yes, you can do this and

422
00:25:51,419 --> 00:25:57,139
this, it's not this or this, you can,
yes, we can do that and we can do that.

423
00:25:57,170 --> 00:25:58,209
And yes, do that.

424
00:25:58,260 --> 00:26:03,400
And yes, do that, you know, and
some, and mostly, uh, people.

425
00:26:03,945 --> 00:26:07,745
can navigate their way through
that with families, with their

426
00:26:07,745 --> 00:26:08,885
family, because it's tricky.

427
00:26:08,885 --> 00:26:09,754
Families are tricky.

428
00:26:09,754 --> 00:26:11,725
We all know families are tricky.

429
00:26:11,725 --> 00:26:15,435
But sometimes Sorry, go on.

430
00:26:16,565 --> 00:26:19,784
Catherine: What would you say that you
use that is the most difficult thing

431
00:26:19,784 --> 00:26:21,814
at that time for families to deal with?

432
00:26:22,254 --> 00:26:26,495
Jenny: I think there are probably,
sometimes there are, sometimes their own

433
00:26:26,495 --> 00:26:28,365
family dynamic is difficult for them.

434
00:26:29,215 --> 00:26:29,985
And,

435
00:26:33,645 --> 00:26:37,995
you know, often families can go
back to their default positions

436
00:26:37,995 --> 00:26:39,845
in those moments of vulnerability.

437
00:26:40,565 --> 00:26:46,125
Uh, and so if it's, I mean,
as much as possible, a funeral

438
00:26:46,125 --> 00:26:47,645
should be a healing time.

439
00:26:47,824 --> 00:26:53,525
And that's why it should be, uh, it
shouldn't be an either or time, you

440
00:26:53,525 --> 00:26:55,235
know, so it's really good for people.

441
00:26:55,565 --> 00:27:00,005
It's also, I suppose, one of the things
that can happen is that the person

442
00:27:00,005 --> 00:27:05,215
who, the, the person who's the, uh,
funeral, organizer or the executor

443
00:27:05,295 --> 00:27:09,605
of the will, or the next of kin,
can make a decision that the other

444
00:27:09,605 --> 00:27:11,025
people in the family don't agree with.

445
00:27:12,535 --> 00:27:15,444
And that's very difficult
for people to come to that.

446
00:27:15,515 --> 00:27:16,775
We know we don't want to do that.

447
00:27:16,785 --> 00:27:22,204
That's why making, doing the preparate,
like, that's why, uh, letting people know

448
00:27:22,205 --> 00:27:26,845
what you want and writing things down
is really, like, it's a very kind and

449
00:27:26,855 --> 00:27:28,975
generous thing to do for your family.

450
00:27:29,255 --> 00:27:33,505
And, you know, we have people and
often the family doesn't want, you

451
00:27:33,505 --> 00:27:36,775
know, the family doesn't want to
talk about it before people die.

452
00:27:37,565 --> 00:27:41,745
You know, dad or mum might say,
we need to talk about my funeral.

453
00:27:41,745 --> 00:27:44,745
And they'll say, Oh no, we're not going to
do that because you're not going to die.

454
00:27:45,285 --> 00:27:48,694
You know, it's not helpful for people.

455
00:27:49,315 --> 00:27:51,865
Like that's not helpful because
then they die and they don't know.

456
00:27:52,285 --> 00:27:56,585
So we often, I mean, there's very simple
things that people can do about that.

457
00:27:56,605 --> 00:28:00,055
You know, and I've said to many people,
just write an email to all of them.

458
00:28:00,895 --> 00:28:02,405
Say open when you're ready.

459
00:28:02,505 --> 00:28:03,905
This is what I'd like to happen.

460
00:28:04,205 --> 00:28:09,475
Because even though, um, they don't
think they want to know, when they

461
00:28:09,475 --> 00:28:11,655
need to know, they need to know.

462
00:28:11,925 --> 00:28:13,134
Like, open it if you're ready.

463
00:28:13,135 --> 00:28:14,115
We can talk about it.

464
00:28:14,115 --> 00:28:16,525
If you don't want to talk about
it, I've given you the information.

465
00:28:16,655 --> 00:28:17,075
That's it.

466
00:28:18,214 --> 00:28:19,295
It's not hard to do.

467
00:28:19,335 --> 00:28:20,234
That's very simple.

468
00:28:20,475 --> 00:28:24,805
And people are very, uh,
relieved about that because

469
00:28:24,805 --> 00:28:26,235
they've given the information.

470
00:28:26,285 --> 00:28:27,685
It's like throwing a ball.

471
00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:34,220
And it might take a really long time
for someone to catch it, but it's in,

472
00:28:34,490 --> 00:28:36,700
it's been thrown and it can be caught.

473
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,710
So that's a very simple thing to do.

474
00:28:42,419 --> 00:28:47,269
Please cremate me, please bury me,
please, you know, I think the other thing

475
00:28:47,269 --> 00:28:52,680
that's tricky for families is the, if
they don't have the money to pay for the

476
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:54,870
funeral, it can be very, very stressful.

477
00:28:55,120 --> 00:29:00,139
So navigating that, um, And working
that out, I mean, no interest loans

478
00:29:00,139 --> 00:29:03,649
are really fantastic now, because
they will loan to different members

479
00:29:03,649 --> 00:29:05,510
of the family for the same funeral.

480
00:29:06,650 --> 00:29:12,459
So that's very helpful, because often
what happens is that people, one person

481
00:29:12,459 --> 00:29:15,930
in the family can go into a lot of debt
to pay for the funeral, and of course at

482
00:29:15,930 --> 00:29:18,879
the time of the funeral, everyone's like,
yeah, we'll help, we can do it, you know.

483
00:29:19,099 --> 00:29:22,450
But after the funeral, sometimes
that doesn't happen, and so instead

484
00:29:22,450 --> 00:29:25,569
of bringing the family together,
it completely splits the family.

485
00:29:26,010 --> 00:29:29,820
So, that's why with tender, we have
a policy of that the funeral has

486
00:29:29,820 --> 00:29:32,820
to be paid for before the funeral.

487
00:29:32,870 --> 00:29:33,139
Yeah.

488
00:29:33,169 --> 00:29:33,610
Okay.

489
00:29:34,139 --> 00:29:35,420
Because we don't want to leave any.

490
00:29:35,490 --> 00:29:39,719
And so, if, if it's, we don't carry debt.

491
00:29:39,860 --> 00:29:44,009
We can't afford to carry debt in our
organization, but it's better for people

492
00:29:44,049 --> 00:29:46,039
to be done and dusted with the money.

493
00:29:47,310 --> 00:29:47,509
Yeah.

494
00:29:47,509 --> 00:29:51,670
So, if everybody can get like, you
know, if a funeral is 4, 000 and

495
00:29:52,450 --> 00:29:55,960
there's four people in the family,
they will get a 1, 000 loan from NILS.

496
00:29:56,180 --> 00:29:58,169
That's doable.

497
00:29:58,670 --> 00:30:03,250
They've got to pay their own loan
off, you know, but so it's really

498
00:30:03,250 --> 00:30:08,960
good to work out, uh, to help
people navigate that money thing.

499
00:30:09,475 --> 00:30:16,605
And I suppose during the process, but
it's also that thing about unlinking, uh,

500
00:30:16,765 --> 00:30:20,664
how much you pay from a funeral, for a
funeral, to how much you love somebody.

501
00:30:20,695 --> 00:30:23,555
So like, love has got
nothing to do with money.

502
00:30:23,745 --> 00:30:24,125
Nothing.

503
00:30:24,915 --> 00:30:27,485
But the culture says it does, you know.

504
00:30:27,965 --> 00:30:33,755
And so, that's why the culture change
is really important, is that people

505
00:30:34,175 --> 00:30:39,625
understand, it's not any pressure
on people to have the hearse, and

506
00:30:39,644 --> 00:30:43,305
to have all the big flowers, and to
do all this, because they want, they

507
00:30:43,335 --> 00:30:48,095
think that that's them honouring
that person, you know, I don't know.

508
00:30:48,095 --> 00:30:48,144
Bye.

509
00:30:49,265 --> 00:30:53,185
I don't know many people who'd say,
spend a lot of money on my funeral.

510
00:30:53,375 --> 00:30:57,345
Like, I think most people will say,
don't spend a lot of money on my funeral.

511
00:30:57,615 --> 00:30:58,894
Just go and have a good time.

512
00:30:58,965 --> 00:31:04,094
Like, give the music lessons or have
a party or like nobody's, I don't

513
00:31:04,145 --> 00:31:07,604
know very, I mean, probably if they
are saying that you probably almost

514
00:31:07,605 --> 00:31:10,635
don't want to do it anyway, because
they might've been saying that their

515
00:31:10,635 --> 00:31:19,725
whole lives, you know, it's like, if
we can change culture so that, that.

516
00:31:20,795 --> 00:31:25,825
How we express our love or care for
somebody at those moments is not

517
00:31:25,865 --> 00:31:27,875
got to do with how much we've spent.

518
00:31:28,505 --> 00:31:33,534
Catherine: Just going back to that
point, it is interesting that, you

519
00:31:33,535 --> 00:31:37,345
know, and I think it may come from
your experience of what you've seen,

520
00:31:37,345 --> 00:31:42,335
but also back to, you know, your own
experience with your, your mother and

521
00:31:42,335 --> 00:31:46,645
correct me if I'm wrong, is that when
you go through a personal experience

522
00:31:46,645 --> 00:31:48,605
like that, you do actually work out.

523
00:31:48,605 --> 00:31:48,645
Yeah.

524
00:31:48,860 --> 00:31:56,310
Very quickly, what matters, uh, at those
times and, and I have also, my father died

525
00:31:56,370 --> 00:32:02,679
over 10 years ago now and, and it is at
those times that, you know, it's, it's in

526
00:32:02,679 --> 00:32:07,659
hindsight that I personally look back and
it was the time that I spent with him, not

527
00:32:07,660 --> 00:32:09,550
what I did at the funeral that mattered.

528
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:09,830
Jenny: Um,

529
00:32:10,300 --> 00:32:11,750
Catherine: um, the funeral.

530
00:32:12,215 --> 00:32:18,775
You know, it is not the, the real thing,
but at the same time, I also had the, the

531
00:32:18,775 --> 00:32:24,025
privilege and the gift from him that he
had actually said what he wanted to do.

532
00:32:24,345 --> 00:32:28,425
So it meant that I didn't have that guilt
or have to make those decisions, which

533
00:32:28,595 --> 00:32:30,575
was an amazing gift that he gave me.

534
00:32:30,954 --> 00:32:31,915
Jenny: Yeah, I think that's right.

535
00:32:31,925 --> 00:32:33,135
I think two things about that.

536
00:32:33,145 --> 00:32:39,415
One is I think that the reason for
families to want to know is that

537
00:32:39,425 --> 00:32:41,195
you might not like their decision.

538
00:32:41,195 --> 00:32:41,255
Right.

539
00:32:41,255 --> 00:32:41,265
Yeah.

540
00:32:41,265 --> 00:32:41,274
Yeah.

541
00:32:42,645 --> 00:32:47,355
Like you might not, and I've been
in conversations with people where,

542
00:32:47,555 --> 00:32:50,645
because people talk about that when
I'm there, they'll say, someone say,

543
00:32:50,645 --> 00:32:54,015
oh, I've organized my funeral, I'm
just going to have my ashes like thrown

544
00:32:54,015 --> 00:32:56,995
off the cliff and there's someone else
at the table who'll burst into tears.

545
00:32:58,970 --> 00:33:04,180
Who's a daughter or a son and
they'll say, Oh, uh, I didn't

546
00:33:04,180 --> 00:33:04,920
know you were going to do that.

547
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:05,670
Why are you going to do that?

548
00:33:05,670 --> 00:33:09,530
I always imagined there'd be somewhere
I would visit you, sit with you.

549
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,250
And, and that, the father's going, Oh,
Oh, well, I didn't have to have my ashes

550
00:33:14,250 --> 00:33:15,730
thrown off the cliff, whatever you want.

551
00:33:15,750 --> 00:33:17,380
He's just trying to do what's easy.

552
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:17,930
Right.

553
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:19,849
All the, well, they're just
trying to do what's easy.

554
00:33:20,179 --> 00:33:22,550
So the point of having the discussion.

555
00:33:22,830 --> 00:33:30,390
Part of it is to see, give everybody an
opportunity of having the best outcome and

556
00:33:30,420 --> 00:33:35,440
still, and sometimes that won't happen,
but at least there's an opportunity.

557
00:33:35,450 --> 00:33:38,750
So if you open that email and you
read something that you don't like,

558
00:33:38,759 --> 00:33:42,000
you might want to challenge it or
say, Oh, you have to do it like that.

559
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,320
And the person might say, actually,
I do have to do it like this.

560
00:33:45,370 --> 00:33:47,530
And this is why I have to do it like that.

561
00:33:47,990 --> 00:33:51,409
So there's a understanding and a respect.

562
00:33:51,685 --> 00:33:54,425
In that rather than
being put upon for that.

563
00:33:55,795 --> 00:33:59,405
So I think, and I think the other
thing where money can come into it

564
00:33:59,405 --> 00:34:03,775
is that somebody might really want
something that isn't affordable,

565
00:34:04,335 --> 00:34:06,415
it's expensive to be buried.

566
00:34:06,645 --> 00:34:08,995
It's also that, so how are
we going to pay for that?

567
00:34:09,005 --> 00:34:11,095
Can we start saving for that now?

568
00:34:11,145 --> 00:34:12,415
That's something you really want.

569
00:34:12,635 --> 00:34:16,085
Maybe the family needs to get together
and start a savings fund so you can

570
00:34:16,085 --> 00:34:17,425
have the thing that you really want.

571
00:34:17,755 --> 00:34:20,574
So it's all of that just smoothing.

572
00:34:21,495 --> 00:34:29,435
The way for something to happen, you know,
and I think, I think the other, I think

573
00:34:29,435 --> 00:34:32,695
there's, I think they're the two things I
thought about that, but I, I, yeah, it's,

574
00:34:32,735 --> 00:34:40,384
it's, I think the other thing to say is
about tender is that we have a, a real,

575
00:34:40,644 --> 00:34:44,095
uh, philosophy of neutrality in tender.

576
00:34:46,590 --> 00:34:50,730
We're not assuming that somebody dying
is the worst thing that could happen.

577
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,790
We're going, we don't know, we don't
know your relationship with that person.

578
00:34:56,220 --> 00:34:59,279
We don't know this is a
good or bad day for you.

579
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,069
We're going to let you tell us and
then we will respond to what is.

580
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,529
So we would not often go, I'm
very sorry, this is very obvious.

581
00:35:07,229 --> 00:35:08,389
I'm very sorry for your loss.

582
00:35:08,390 --> 00:35:09,570
We might go, how are you?

583
00:35:09,790 --> 00:35:15,470
Somebody might go, I'm just happy this
person died because I'm tired or I'm,

584
00:35:15,470 --> 00:35:21,385
uh, I didn't like them, or I'm relieved,
or this is the best day of my life,

585
00:35:21,405 --> 00:35:22,815
or this is the worst day of my life.

586
00:35:23,005 --> 00:35:23,845
It's their day.

587
00:35:23,855 --> 00:35:24,675
It's not our day.

588
00:35:25,105 --> 00:35:32,965
So it's really about leaving the space
very clean for everybody else to, uh,

589
00:35:33,044 --> 00:35:35,825
take up the emotional space of that time.

590
00:35:35,894 --> 00:35:36,564
Not us.

591
00:35:36,625 --> 00:35:37,464
It's not our day.

592
00:35:37,785 --> 00:35:43,680
Um, so I think that's also really
important that you don't have to, you

593
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:48,775
know, It's not all, you know, it's, it's,
it's, there's not a one size fits all

594
00:35:48,775 --> 00:35:50,405
because there's not a one size fits all.

595
00:35:51,730 --> 00:35:56,990
You know, I think sometimes the only
other thing I would say is that sometimes

596
00:35:56,990 --> 00:36:01,890
families can't reach a resolution about
funerals and occasionally we've done

597
00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:09,059
two funerals for the same person on the
same day of like a religious ceremony

598
00:36:09,059 --> 00:36:13,529
and a non religious ceremony because
it just takes an extra hour to do that.

599
00:36:14,265 --> 00:36:18,655
And yeah, for some people that
religious survey, especially around

600
00:36:18,655 --> 00:36:20,155
children is really important.

601
00:36:21,225 --> 00:36:25,245
And for other people, the non
religion is really important.

602
00:36:25,405 --> 00:36:31,954
So sometimes you can't bridge the gap,
but the families doesn't have, the family

603
00:36:31,954 --> 00:36:34,325
doesn't have to be in despair about it.

604
00:36:34,655 --> 00:36:37,095
They can say, I can see
that's important for you.

605
00:36:37,385 --> 00:36:37,965
I do that.

606
00:36:38,405 --> 00:36:40,425
And, oh, I can see
that's important for you.

607
00:36:40,425 --> 00:36:41,205
Let's do that.

608
00:36:41,525 --> 00:36:49,865
So it doesn't have to be, uh, you know,
you can only do a funeral once in a

609
00:36:49,865 --> 00:36:53,324
way, like having, you know, you're not
going to get another day to do this on.

610
00:36:53,325 --> 00:36:57,514
So you might as well make sure you've
done it in the way you want to do it.

611
00:36:59,355 --> 00:37:03,320
Catherine: Well, that obviously says
something about how the value you

612
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:08,510
place on that to, to have your team
be comfortable to do that and work

613
00:37:08,510 --> 00:37:10,230
with the family to accommodate that.

614
00:37:10,340 --> 00:37:17,460
Uh, and, and obviously, you know, with the
core feelings that you have, and you've

615
00:37:17,460 --> 00:37:20,530
embedded those within tender funerals.

616
00:37:20,940 --> 00:37:23,880
So tell me about how, how
have you managed to do that?

617
00:37:23,890 --> 00:37:31,680
Like how, Is there a code of conduct
that you have or the network is, is that

618
00:37:31,690 --> 00:37:37,319
where you discuss these sort of values
that you represent in the organization?

619
00:37:37,620 --> 00:37:41,009
And especially given the fact
that, you know, you've, you've

620
00:37:41,009 --> 00:37:42,580
expanded very, very quickly.

621
00:37:42,580 --> 00:37:49,740
Like I think you in June, 2022, just
having a look here, you know, you expanded

622
00:37:49,740 --> 00:37:51,940
to the mid North coast of New South Wales.

623
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,440
And then from then you've expanded.

624
00:37:55,690 --> 00:37:59,620
Rapidly with Brisbane, you know,
Canberra opening in August this

625
00:37:59,620 --> 00:38:05,160
year, Geelong, Eastern Melbourne, Far
North Queensland, Newcastle, Perth,

626
00:38:05,190 --> 00:38:09,900
Tasmania, Western Sydney, and I've
probably maybe missed one or two.

627
00:38:10,299 --> 00:38:16,650
How do you actually have the values
that you have and then manage to

628
00:38:16,650 --> 00:38:20,960
expand in that very short period

629
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:22,090
Jenny: of time as well?

630
00:38:22,750 --> 00:38:26,845
Uh, Look, I think that the
values are human values.

631
00:38:26,875 --> 00:38:31,055
And I think, I think it is hard
for the funeral directors sometimes

632
00:38:31,055 --> 00:38:36,175
to navigate, to navigate what
we're asking them to navigate.

633
00:38:36,175 --> 00:38:41,364
But I think there is a constant, we
have a credo and the credo is about

634
00:38:41,394 --> 00:38:45,595
transparency, kindness in the credo.

635
00:38:45,595 --> 00:38:48,815
It says kindness is our compass
and that's a deep kindness.

636
00:38:48,825 --> 00:38:50,445
So it's like, it's really like,

637
00:38:52,625 --> 00:38:58,890
uh, you know, helping or having
those discussions about what is

638
00:38:58,890 --> 00:39:03,150
challenging for the, for people,
what is challenging about neutrality.

639
00:39:03,290 --> 00:39:04,640
So what is challenging?

640
00:39:04,650 --> 00:39:10,159
Neutrality doesn't mean you don't
care, you know, and, and also

641
00:39:10,199 --> 00:39:11,960
it is like letting people, so.

642
00:39:14,345 --> 00:39:18,955
Tender is really about activating
people's communities around them to

643
00:39:18,955 --> 00:39:21,845
help them navigate their process.

644
00:39:21,895 --> 00:39:25,234
So it's not really about like, we're
there, we're supporting them, but the

645
00:39:25,245 --> 00:39:29,544
best funerals we ever have is when
we're like, people are right back, you

646
00:39:29,544 --> 00:39:34,515
know, we don't have uniforms, have tiny
little badges and the family is forward,

647
00:39:34,585 --> 00:39:38,235
or their community, not necessarily
the family, sometimes it's their,

648
00:39:38,505 --> 00:39:40,605
it's the family of choice, you know.

649
00:39:41,235 --> 00:39:41,745
So.

650
00:39:42,655 --> 00:39:46,595
It really is about, because we're not
going to be there going forward, so

651
00:39:46,595 --> 00:39:51,875
if you can get people to be with their
communities between the death of someone

652
00:39:51,875 --> 00:39:57,765
and when you, um, dispose of their body,
that's a very, that middle section means

653
00:39:57,765 --> 00:40:00,165
they remain connected going forward.

654
00:40:00,614 --> 00:40:05,005
So, for us, it's really
about us dropping whatever.

655
00:40:05,485 --> 00:40:09,625
our ideas are about what
people should or shouldn't do.

656
00:40:09,715 --> 00:40:14,175
You know, we've got our own code about,
you know, everybody's looked after,

657
00:40:14,235 --> 00:40:18,204
you know, people are, when they're
brought into the mortuary, they're given

658
00:40:18,215 --> 00:40:23,215
basic mortuary care, unless the family
specifically says don't do that, or

659
00:40:23,245 --> 00:40:25,685
unless their family's already done that.

660
00:40:25,695 --> 00:40:29,475
So the best thing for us is if
people do that care, the washing

661
00:40:29,475 --> 00:40:32,895
and dressing when the person dies
and then before we even get them,

662
00:40:32,895 --> 00:40:34,715
that's, that's Good for the family.

663
00:40:34,745 --> 00:40:38,825
So, but there's basic things
that are non negotiable for us.

664
00:40:38,995 --> 00:40:43,395
And, and that's what people sign
up to when they come into, when

665
00:40:43,395 --> 00:40:44,915
they come in to join tender.

666
00:40:44,925 --> 00:40:48,295
So, we're also not saying to
people come and join tender.

667
00:40:48,305 --> 00:40:48,924
We never.

668
00:40:49,375 --> 00:40:53,445
Invite, we've never, we only go to
communities who want to have a tender.

669
00:40:53,765 --> 00:40:55,395
We never say you should have a tender.

670
00:40:55,475 --> 00:41:00,034
So, and all of those tenders
will be owned and operated by

671
00:41:00,034 --> 00:41:02,025
their own communities, not by us.

672
00:41:02,175 --> 00:41:04,425
So they're all companies
limited by guarantee.

673
00:41:04,465 --> 00:41:06,955
They all belong to their communities.

674
00:41:07,475 --> 00:41:13,595
So it really is about just amplifying
the values that have attracted

675
00:41:13,845 --> 00:41:15,315
people to tender in the beginning.

676
00:41:15,785 --> 00:41:19,385
So it's not, we're not trying to sell
anybody anything, we're not, you know,

677
00:41:19,395 --> 00:41:23,435
I spend the first three hours out of
any new site wanting to join tender,

678
00:41:23,535 --> 00:41:28,705
honestly trying to say, this is really
difficult, it's going to take a long time,

679
00:41:29,235 --> 00:41:34,275
you know, you may work for four years,
and it's very, it's, you know, trying,

680
00:41:34,315 --> 00:41:36,475
really saying, this is what it's about.

681
00:41:37,350 --> 00:41:42,740
And I haven't actually had anybody
go, oh, you know, in a way, part of

682
00:41:42,740 --> 00:41:47,230
me is going, don't do it unless you
really want to do it because it's hard.

683
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,480
And because it's, it's an expensive
thing to do to set up a tender.

684
00:41:53,060 --> 00:41:55,129
And anyway, it's hard work.

685
00:41:55,130 --> 00:41:57,690
So I want to, I don't
want people to come in.

686
00:41:58,390 --> 00:42:04,890
Thinking it's easy to do, because it's
also like, it's also like there isn't

687
00:42:04,890 --> 00:42:07,070
that much support out there in the world.

688
00:42:07,140 --> 00:42:10,369
Philanthropic support to set up
tenders, so it's really hard for

689
00:42:10,369 --> 00:42:12,070
people to raise their money, you know.

690
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:17,189
Catherine: And tell me, when
you, before you expanded, you

691
00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:19,190
allowed yourself that four years.

692
00:42:19,985 --> 00:42:25,475
Was that to try and test everything
before you actually said, yes,

693
00:42:25,475 --> 00:42:26,835
it could work, this model?

694
00:42:27,245 --> 00:42:28,655
Tell me a little bit about that.

695
00:42:28,685 --> 00:42:33,155
Why, why the four years before
expanding when people were keen

696
00:42:33,194 --> 00:42:35,265
to, to jump on board already?

697
00:42:35,745 --> 00:42:39,574
Jenny: I think because we didn't
have the systems in, we were,

698
00:42:40,304 --> 00:42:41,364
we were learning as we did.

699
00:42:42,025 --> 00:42:45,405
We're still learning, you know,
we're still developing the systems.

700
00:42:45,415 --> 00:42:47,595
We're still, yeah, we're still learning.

701
00:42:47,745 --> 00:42:50,184
And yeah, I think that was part of it.

702
00:42:50,185 --> 00:42:53,175
I think we, I needed to be
sure, we all needed to be sure

703
00:42:53,175 --> 00:42:54,514
that the model would work.

704
00:42:55,615 --> 00:43:00,664
You know, the model is that, the business
model of tender is that we just, you

705
00:43:00,665 --> 00:43:03,845
charge what it costs us to operate.

706
00:43:04,555 --> 00:43:07,015
So we've, after we paid our funeral
directors, paid off our loans.

707
00:43:08,335 --> 00:43:11,305
You know, all of those things,
that's the cost, that's the

708
00:43:11,305 --> 00:43:12,505
operational cost of tender.

709
00:43:12,525 --> 00:43:15,615
That's, so not all the tenders
have the same price because

710
00:43:15,615 --> 00:43:17,315
they're not all got the same costs.

711
00:43:17,365 --> 00:43:21,815
Or, you know, they've got, you know,
they've got loans they have to pay

712
00:43:21,815 --> 00:43:23,514
off to pay for their buildings, etc.

713
00:43:24,255 --> 00:43:27,434
So, there, so the business model is about.

714
00:43:28,820 --> 00:43:32,280
Is about that not, we're not saying
here's the prices you have to charge

715
00:43:32,290 --> 00:43:37,290
except about the Benevolent Fund and
except about the, the Social Franchise

716
00:43:37,290 --> 00:43:38,670
Fund back to Tender Australia.

717
00:43:38,710 --> 00:43:43,250
So, they're the two prices we say these
are the things, these are the costs.

718
00:43:43,559 --> 00:43:46,019
Everything else, it's about
their operational model.

719
00:43:46,479 --> 00:43:49,400
So, I think we needed to
make sure that could work.

720
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,220
We didn't have a Benevolent
Fund to start with.

721
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,130
The Benevolent Fund has come through.

722
00:43:54,605 --> 00:43:56,495
has been developed over time.

723
00:43:56,865 --> 00:44:00,775
And I was really not overly in
favor of the Benevolent Bund.

724
00:44:00,775 --> 00:44:03,295
I was like, well, everyone just
should have an affordable funeral.

725
00:44:03,905 --> 00:44:08,905
But I was, I have to say, I was really,
there's so many things in this process

726
00:44:08,934 --> 00:44:13,604
I've been really wrong about, Catherine,
and that was one of them, that, uh,

727
00:44:13,785 --> 00:44:16,945
um, people love the Benevolent Bund.

728
00:44:17,125 --> 00:44:21,205
And, and so who am I to say it's not good?

729
00:44:21,425 --> 00:44:21,875
It's good.

730
00:44:22,315 --> 00:44:29,770
Uh, so, you know, We, and also it
was ti it was really took us seven

731
00:44:29,770 --> 00:44:35,840
years to open tender and I think
probably we were tired as well.

732
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,370
We wanted to make sure it was gonna work.

733
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:42,650
It still needed our love and attention
and to replicate it at that time, I don't,

734
00:44:43,730 --> 00:44:45,230
I just dunno how we would've done it.

735
00:44:45,235 --> 00:44:48,810
And I don't think it would've been
the right thing to do to do it.

736
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:49,560
So.

737
00:44:50,155 --> 00:44:53,015
Four years later, we could see,
yes, we can pay off our loans.

738
00:44:53,055 --> 00:44:53,335
Yes.

739
00:44:53,375 --> 00:44:54,735
People want the funerals.

740
00:44:54,975 --> 00:44:55,295
Yes.

741
00:44:55,295 --> 00:44:56,315
We've learned a lot.

742
00:44:56,765 --> 00:45:02,954
Uh, so we embarked upon that journey
and, you know, I know it sounds like

743
00:45:02,954 --> 00:45:11,424
we've, you know, we have grown, uh, we
have said yes to a lot of communities,

744
00:45:11,425 --> 00:45:15,844
but that doesn't mean that, uh, it's
quite hard to do it in Australia.

745
00:45:15,844 --> 00:45:18,884
It's a very small philanthropic
pond in Australia.

746
00:45:19,324 --> 00:45:19,984
So.

747
00:45:20,585 --> 00:45:24,745
You know, we have a very successful
model, but it's still, we're still a

748
00:45:24,745 --> 00:45:29,915
startup, you know, and social enterprise
in Australia is a very new thing.

749
00:45:30,305 --> 00:45:34,325
And, you know, there were, I think
we're learning as a country about

750
00:45:34,325 --> 00:45:37,854
social enterprise and I don't
know that we've, you know, there's

751
00:45:37,854 --> 00:45:40,295
a big, uh, support of startups.

752
00:45:40,675 --> 00:45:43,285
When I say we're a startup, we're
sort of not a startup anymore.

753
00:45:44,860 --> 00:45:47,420
But there's a missing
middle in the funding.

754
00:45:47,610 --> 00:45:52,220
So it's like, it takes about seven
years, seven to 10 years for any

755
00:45:52,220 --> 00:45:53,839
business to become sustainable.

756
00:45:54,189 --> 00:45:56,450
And it's very hard to get funding
in Australia past four years.

757
00:45:57,109 --> 00:46:04,940
So it's like the model needs to be
responsive to the need because tender is a

758
00:46:04,940 --> 00:46:08,840
completely sustainable social enterprise.

759
00:46:10,395 --> 00:46:11,835
After a period of time.

760
00:46:12,125 --> 00:46:15,185
So it's, which is not usual either.

761
00:46:15,215 --> 00:46:20,815
It's unusual that it's, it, it's much
that's in a positive way that's not usual.

762
00:46:21,445 --> 00:46:25,375
Catherine: Anyway, you know, you, you, I
think you, you did mention that you had to

763
00:46:25,795 --> 00:46:31,465
develop the framework because there wasn't
a, there wasn't a social enterprise.

764
00:46:32,245 --> 00:46:35,375
For a franchise, there wasn't
a framework in Australia.

765
00:46:35,375 --> 00:46:40,744
So yeah, it's certainly, you've certainly
developed, you know, ways and processes

766
00:46:40,745 --> 00:46:43,765
that haven't been documented previously.

767
00:46:44,295 --> 00:46:46,925
And, and just tell me a little
bit about that benevolent

768
00:46:46,935 --> 00:46:48,155
fund that you, you mentioned.

769
00:46:48,664 --> 00:46:48,884
Jenny: Yeah.

770
00:46:48,955 --> 00:46:53,034
So the benevolent fund is, we have
three tiers of pricing in tender.

771
00:46:53,424 --> 00:46:56,674
We have the tier, there's
a, it's, they're not.

772
00:46:57,155 --> 00:47:00,825
They're not hierarchical, actually,
in a way, there's just so, so the

773
00:47:00,825 --> 00:47:05,505
first, the tier with the benevolent
is that you have to, there's a price

774
00:47:05,505 --> 00:47:10,635
point for making a contribution
to the benevolent fund of 250.

775
00:47:11,995 --> 00:47:14,985
So if people can afford to
pay that, they pay that.

776
00:47:15,445 --> 00:47:19,175
The next, there's another price point
where people can't afford to pay

777
00:47:19,175 --> 00:47:23,235
the 250 but can pay the at cost fee.

778
00:47:23,825 --> 00:47:27,435
And there's another price point
where people can't pay the at cost

779
00:47:27,444 --> 00:47:31,555
fee and we need to draw from the
Benevolent Fund to help them pay.

780
00:47:32,505 --> 00:47:37,365
So, they're the three points, and
what we find, what we've found is that

781
00:47:37,365 --> 00:47:40,045
people often give much more than 250.

782
00:47:40,705 --> 00:47:43,715
They're like, oh, mum would love
that, let's make that 1, 000.

783
00:47:44,265 --> 00:47:48,354
Because the benefit, what's, what
the thing I didn't know, that I

784
00:47:48,355 --> 00:47:52,405
know now, is that In a time that's
difficult, people want to give,

785
00:47:53,925 --> 00:47:56,305
and it's helpful to them to give.

786
00:47:56,815 --> 00:48:00,604
So, in a way, that's a gift
to them, that they give to

787
00:48:00,604 --> 00:48:02,155
others at that, at that moment.

788
00:48:02,644 --> 00:48:05,685
And I think the Benevolent
Fund isn't just about money.

789
00:48:06,285 --> 00:48:10,695
It's not about drawing on that
money just to have a basic funeral.

790
00:48:10,735 --> 00:48:13,505
It's about drawing on that money
to have the funeral you need

791
00:48:13,545 --> 00:48:16,264
to have for your own healing.

792
00:48:16,695 --> 00:48:23,704
So it can be that in your framework
to have a hearse is really important.

793
00:48:24,065 --> 00:48:26,035
You're going to feel terrible
if you don't have a hearse.

794
00:48:26,285 --> 00:48:26,955
So we'll get a hearse.

795
00:48:27,545 --> 00:48:31,145
It might be that you want a rosewood
coffin and not a cardboard coffin.

796
00:48:31,145 --> 00:48:33,965
So you can have a rosewood
coffin, you know, it's, it's

797
00:48:33,965 --> 00:48:35,575
really about, it's really about.

798
00:48:36,335 --> 00:48:41,575
You telling us what you need and
sometimes even if you can afford it.

799
00:48:42,985 --> 00:48:49,005
You know, you can't, that person
who's died has been problematic

800
00:48:49,015 --> 00:48:53,115
for you and you've just, now you
even have to pay for their funeral,

801
00:48:53,345 --> 00:48:54,955
like for God's sake, you know.

802
00:48:55,485 --> 00:48:58,214
So at that point we
might say, we'll chip in.

803
00:49:00,034 --> 00:49:03,135
We recognize that you've
already contributed a lot.

804
00:49:04,555 --> 00:49:07,335
And you don't, and you
just don't have it anymore.

805
00:49:07,515 --> 00:49:08,335
You can't, you know.

806
00:49:08,825 --> 00:49:09,885
And so that's healing.

807
00:49:09,915 --> 00:49:13,485
We might only trip in a couple of hundred
bucks, but there, but someone has gone,

808
00:49:13,495 --> 00:49:17,975
we can see that this is a burden and
you've borne that burden for a long time

809
00:49:17,975 --> 00:49:19,005
and you don't want to do it anymore.

810
00:49:19,715 --> 00:49:25,594
So there's a whole lot of ways, there's a
whole lot of sorts of benevolence in the

811
00:49:25,594 --> 00:49:32,935
world and they're not all about money, but
money can, the, the, the, the contribution

812
00:49:33,424 --> 00:49:35,395
is, can sometimes be an acknowledgement.

813
00:49:37,285 --> 00:49:41,535
And, and it's not, yeah, so
that's why it is affordable.

814
00:49:41,565 --> 00:49:44,105
That's why you can afford to
have the funeral you need to have

815
00:49:44,105 --> 00:49:46,805
because there's money there to pay
for the funeral they need to have.

816
00:49:47,675 --> 00:49:50,445
Catherine: And how can people
support that benevolent fund?

817
00:49:50,465 --> 00:49:50,755
Can they

818
00:49:50,795 --> 00:49:52,115
Jenny: donate to it or?

819
00:49:52,434 --> 00:49:57,435
They could donate to the individual
Tenders, we don't have a national

820
00:49:57,505 --> 00:50:01,405
fund, so they can go online and
donate to the individual tenders.

821
00:50:01,755 --> 00:50:07,194
I mean, any donation that, for the
non operational tenders, they could

822
00:50:07,194 --> 00:50:11,875
donate to help them start, so it
wouldn't be tied to, so the Benevolent

823
00:50:11,884 --> 00:50:16,745
Fund is, the 250 in the Benevolent
Fund, the money in the Benevolent

824
00:50:16,745 --> 00:50:18,605
Fund has to be used for funerals.

825
00:50:18,795 --> 00:50:19,789
It has to be.

826
00:50:19,790 --> 00:50:23,190
You can't, you can't say, well,
we're going to use the benevolent

827
00:50:23,340 --> 00:50:27,230
fund to, you know, fund a volunteer
picnic or something, you know, you

828
00:50:27,230 --> 00:50:29,470
got to, or to buy a new trolley even.

829
00:50:29,710 --> 00:50:30,649
So there's two funds.

830
00:50:30,660 --> 00:50:33,250
There's like a donation fund
and there's a benevolent fund.

831
00:50:33,910 --> 00:50:38,650
So if people felt like donating,
it's probably better for people to

832
00:50:38,650 --> 00:50:43,520
donate to, well not better, it's not
better, but it's more usable for the

833
00:50:43,670 --> 00:50:48,500
tenders that haven't started to just
be given money to help them start.

834
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:49,570
And there's a donate.

835
00:50:50,145 --> 00:50:54,355
To each of them on their web page and
they've all got it right now on their web

836
00:50:54,585 --> 00:51:00,465
page to the operational tenders, like when
the operational tenders start, they often

837
00:51:00,465 --> 00:51:02,224
don't have money in their benevolent fund.

838
00:51:02,225 --> 00:51:07,655
So, say, when Mid North Coast
started, Tanda Illawarra used their

839
00:51:07,655 --> 00:51:09,595
benevolent fund for Mid North Coast.

840
00:51:10,235 --> 00:51:13,485
They didn't give them money, but it
went through their benevolent fund.

841
00:51:13,485 --> 00:51:16,145
So, Mid North Coast billed them for that.

842
00:51:17,130 --> 00:51:20,210
Money, because, and probably when
Canberra starts, probably Mid North

843
00:51:20,210 --> 00:51:25,460
Coast, then Illawarra will help them
in the beginning with their benevolent,

844
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:30,580
because that's a common, it's a
common goal of tender to do that.

845
00:51:30,789 --> 00:51:33,030
And also the benevolent
fund's got to be used.

846
00:51:33,170 --> 00:51:36,930
So, you want to use the benevolent
fund, not just have it sitting there.

847
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:38,560
So, yeah, so people can donate.

848
00:51:39,270 --> 00:51:40,020
Absolutely.

849
00:51:40,910 --> 00:51:44,270
Catherine: And we'll put links
on our show notes that actually

850
00:51:44,270 --> 00:51:46,470
link to the websites as well.

851
00:51:48,020 --> 00:51:52,779
And coming back to the fact that it's
that social enterprise framework that

852
00:51:52,790 --> 00:51:59,010
you're using, or what you are, most
social enterprises, Monitor or measure

853
00:51:59,010 --> 00:52:00,740
the impacts that they're, they're having.

854
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,430
Have you done any of that measuring
and, and what has it told you?

855
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:05,250
Jenny: Yeah.

856
00:52:05,250 --> 00:52:07,630
So we have done a lot of that measuring.

857
00:52:07,630 --> 00:52:14,669
We do a biannual, uh, impact report and
we serve, so part of our, uh, we have

858
00:52:14,669 --> 00:52:18,600
an outcomes framework that the, that the
funeral directors fill out and that that's

859
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:25,985
about, you know, country of births, uh,
how old the people are who were using you

860
00:52:25,985 --> 00:52:30,875
know, the age demographic, the country
of birth, the cultural, you know, their

861
00:52:30,875 --> 00:52:35,535
cultural background or their cultural
practice, uh, the money, the amount

862
00:52:35,535 --> 00:52:39,765
of people who've used the Benevolent
Fund, the, yeah, there's a whole lot of

863
00:52:39,905 --> 00:52:41,915
questions that we, that we ask people.

864
00:52:41,915 --> 00:52:47,034
And then that data is used partly
to, that data is used every

865
00:52:47,034 --> 00:52:51,604
month, is reported back, oh, every
quarterly, that's reported back to.

866
00:52:52,315 --> 00:52:56,175
the, uh, to Tender Australia, but also
it's that data can be shared with the

867
00:52:56,205 --> 00:53:00,275
next, with the network, and we can give
it back to them to use for themselves.

868
00:53:00,354 --> 00:53:06,354
So, we also do a, uh, Kerry Noonan
from the Death Literacy Institute does

869
00:53:06,354 --> 00:53:13,330
our impact, impact, uh, report, and
they, so they interview, um, There's a

870
00:53:13,330 --> 00:53:17,650
series of questions that they ask and
that's about healthy bereavement and

871
00:53:17,660 --> 00:53:22,310
impact of the family on participation.

872
00:53:22,370 --> 00:53:26,060
And so there's a whole lot of questions
that they answer in the survey.

873
00:53:26,060 --> 00:53:27,409
Everybody's surveyed.

874
00:53:28,030 --> 00:53:29,600
They don't have to, of
course, answer that.

875
00:53:29,619 --> 00:53:34,979
So we don't survey people who are
six months out from having a funeral.

876
00:53:36,180 --> 00:53:41,580
But we survey everybody beyond that six
months and they don't have to answer.

877
00:53:42,610 --> 00:53:42,950
Yeah.

878
00:53:43,010 --> 00:53:43,280
Yeah.

879
00:53:43,310 --> 00:53:44,800
But we have quite a good response rate.

880
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,320
And then from that, people will say,
yes, I'm happy to be interviewed.

881
00:53:48,359 --> 00:53:50,240
And then there's an interview process.

882
00:53:50,649 --> 00:53:54,570
But there's also a, we also
calculate how much money we've

883
00:53:54,570 --> 00:53:56,664
saved in the community over time.

884
00:53:56,664 --> 00:53:56,745
Right.

885
00:53:56,745 --> 00:53:56,827
Right.

886
00:53:56,827 --> 00:53:56,909
Right.

887
00:53:57,180 --> 00:54:00,400
Over the time so that
we've been operating.

888
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,140
So for instance in the time that tenders
been operating in the Illawarra It's

889
00:54:04,140 --> 00:54:06,120
saved the community eight million dollars.

890
00:54:07,330 --> 00:54:07,700
Wow

891
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:09,110
Catherine: That's phenomenal.

892
00:54:09,500 --> 00:54:14,480
Yeah, so tell me have you seen any trends
in the people that are using tender?

893
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:24,610
Jenny: Uh, look, what we can also say is
that for people who, that most like the

894
00:54:24,610 --> 00:54:27,030
results, I'll send you the impact report.

895
00:54:27,099 --> 00:54:31,119
People can find the impact report
on the webpage, but Kerry Noolan

896
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:34,359
has come back to me and said,
you know, look, these results.

897
00:54:35,205 --> 00:54:37,315
Don't seem, they're too good.

898
00:54:39,275 --> 00:54:43,285
She's like, like 98 percent of people
say this, and I'm like, only 98%?

899
00:54:43,515 --> 00:54:45,135
What about the other 2%?

900
00:54:45,165 --> 00:54:45,905
What did they say?

901
00:54:45,905 --> 00:54:46,745
What happened?

902
00:54:46,855 --> 00:54:48,605
She's like, that's not
how you say it, Jenny.

903
00:54:49,274 --> 00:54:49,944
Get it together.

904
00:54:50,464 --> 00:54:51,294
Get it together.

905
00:54:51,535 --> 00:54:52,884
98 percent is really good.

906
00:54:52,924 --> 00:54:55,095
I'm like, yeah, but I
need to know about the 2%.

907
00:54:55,095 --> 00:54:57,504
I

908
00:54:57,505 --> 00:55:00,385
Catherine: think that says a lot about
you, Jenny, to be perfectly honest.

909
00:55:02,090 --> 00:55:03,860
You're concerned about the 2 percent

910
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,870
Jenny: I'm concerned about the 2
percent I'm like, what happened to them?

911
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:09,350
Did we, she's just like
shakes her head at me.

912
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:10,049
She's brilliant.

913
00:55:10,309 --> 00:55:16,660
But it's, you know, but there is this
time we did a, uh, we asked questions that

914
00:55:16,660 --> 00:55:21,790
were indicating around healthy bereavement
and it's in the impact report, which I

915
00:55:21,820 --> 00:55:24,560
can probably get, but hold on, if I can.

916
00:55:25,220 --> 00:55:29,880
So say for instance, in the last
impact report, it's like, there were 24

917
00:55:29,910 --> 00:55:35,185
countries that were Of people represented
who we, who we had done funerals for.

918
00:55:36,255 --> 00:55:41,585
I'm just trying to find, so 99 percent
of people said it was affordable.

919
00:55:42,565 --> 00:55:50,414
Uh, 96%, 99 percent felt they had op
choices, uh, and 96 percent felt they had.

920
00:55:51,735 --> 00:55:55,385
We'd made, we'd given them options that
made the funeral affordable to them.

921
00:55:55,735 --> 00:55:59,615
60 percent of people who were surveyed
had participated in the death care.

922
00:55:59,894 --> 00:56:02,275
In the normal funeral industry, that's 2%.

923
00:56:03,784 --> 00:56:09,335
So 99 percent of people were able to
access the funeral service they wanted.

924
00:56:09,864 --> 00:56:13,055
And 98 percent felt that the
funeral, that the funerals were

925
00:56:13,055 --> 00:56:14,855
aligned with their family values.

926
00:56:16,245 --> 00:56:18,995
So it's pretty, so the
interesting thing is,

927
00:56:19,765 --> 00:56:22,795
Catherine: I can see why Carrie
said that the stats are amazing.

928
00:56:23,255 --> 00:56:32,345
Jenny: Yeah, so the, so, and then the
reducing complex grief, so it's usually

929
00:56:32,345 --> 00:56:37,964
between 10 and 15 percent of people
who experience conflict, complex grief

930
00:56:38,014 --> 00:56:43,555
after going through a funeral, but 7
percent of people in the evaluation

931
00:56:44,195 --> 00:56:49,655
survey, the evaluations we did, so it
was only, so it was almost half Wow.

932
00:56:50,185 --> 00:56:55,795
Catherine: A lot about that, that process,
well, I suppose what I take from that is

933
00:56:55,835 --> 00:57:01,955
that, that process or that journey that
you take the families on, where at each

934
00:57:01,965 --> 00:57:08,024
step they get to make a conscious decision
and inform the decision about the process.

935
00:57:08,064 --> 00:57:08,414
Yeah.

936
00:57:08,604 --> 00:57:09,544
And also they can

937
00:57:09,574 --> 00:57:14,084
Jenny: participate in the process,
like, yeah, there's something very

938
00:57:14,084 --> 00:57:18,165
helpful There's something very
helpful for people about having an

939
00:57:18,165 --> 00:57:20,365
interaction with that person's body.

940
00:57:20,465 --> 00:57:26,665
There's something that really helps
them in the, and I think that's why

941
00:57:26,665 --> 00:57:31,744
we've always cared for our own human
beings have mostly over the last 20,

942
00:57:31,744 --> 00:57:32,874
000 years cared for their own dead.

943
00:57:33,525 --> 00:57:38,695
And part of that is because when you,
when you are interacting with the body

944
00:57:38,695 --> 00:57:41,715
of somebody and you put your hands
on their body, there's something that

945
00:57:41,725 --> 00:57:46,594
happens that I can't explain, but I
know it happens is that somehow your

946
00:57:47,095 --> 00:57:50,865
Body understands that that body is gone.

947
00:57:52,255 --> 00:57:57,505
It's like a cellular
transmission and that's helpful.

948
00:57:58,285 --> 00:58:02,155
The other thing that's really helpful
about being, having a body present

949
00:58:02,605 --> 00:58:09,974
is that often people can, they're
putting their grief on the coffin

950
00:58:09,985 --> 00:58:14,115
or on the body of the person who's
they've lost, not on the bodies of

951
00:58:14,165 --> 00:58:20,315
the people who have done the, who've
had the loss, and that's also helpful

952
00:58:20,465 --> 00:58:22,115
because they don't have to absorb it.

953
00:58:23,915 --> 00:58:25,645
Don't have to absorb
everybody else's grief.

954
00:58:25,645 --> 00:58:26,935
The grief goes where it belongs.

955
00:58:27,095 --> 00:58:29,765
That's why come and say
goodbye is important.

956
00:58:30,115 --> 00:58:32,475
That's why having a vigil is important.

957
00:58:32,805 --> 00:58:38,974
Because the grief can go, or the, or
the emotion can go to where it belongs.

958
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:44,550
Not, because it's hard to absorb
everybody else's feelings in that moment.

959
00:58:44,570 --> 00:58:49,820
Not that you shouldn't show your feelings,
but it's hard to, there's a lot going on.

960
00:58:49,850 --> 00:58:56,479
So those things, I think, traditionally
are why, like, there's always a, there's

961
00:58:56,479 --> 00:58:59,290
a wisdom in what's always happened.

962
00:58:59,670 --> 00:59:00,660
There's a wisdom in it.

963
00:59:00,979 --> 00:59:08,470
And we shouldn't throw it away without
realizing, oh, why did we, why have we

964
00:59:08,470 --> 00:59:10,229
only not done this for a hundred years?

965
00:59:10,229 --> 00:59:12,100
And is, has that helped us?

966
00:59:12,595 --> 00:59:17,545
And I think the other, and maybe it
hasn't, I also think the medicalization

967
00:59:17,555 --> 00:59:23,024
of people, the medicalization of death
means that often, and the amount of

968
00:59:23,025 --> 00:59:28,084
caring that's required, that often
those people who maybe are wives have

969
00:59:28,084 --> 00:59:35,155
become carers and they need some sort
of opportunity to be in relationship

970
00:59:35,195 --> 00:59:41,045
just with that person as in, in a, to
reclaim that relationship in some way.

971
00:59:41,265 --> 00:59:44,605
And I think, yeah, so I think
there's a whole lot of reasons.

972
00:59:45,090 --> 00:59:51,110
There's a whole lot of reasons for
participation that in that, because that

973
00:59:51,110 --> 00:59:53,000
helps build the muscle for the next stage.

974
00:59:54,710 --> 00:59:58,840
So if we go straight from one to the
other, there's a whole lot of things

975
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:04,609
that can't happen for us, that we need
to happen for us in order to go, to keep

976
01:00:04,610 --> 01:00:06,880
going, you know, keep going in life.

977
01:00:07,149 --> 01:00:12,940
And really, the biggest thing
I could say about this is that

978
01:00:16,029 --> 01:00:24,265
honestly being grounded is, is Is the
biggest connector to life that I could,

979
01:00:25,315 --> 01:00:29,855
that I've ever seen, that I've ever
experienced, because you sort of get it.

980
01:00:30,915 --> 01:00:32,585
You get, oh, you know,

981
01:00:34,594 --> 01:00:35,745
we're all going to die.

982
01:00:35,855 --> 01:00:37,005
And this is my life.

983
01:00:37,005 --> 01:00:37,705
I'm alive.

984
01:00:37,724 --> 01:00:41,574
So really it does catapult
you to the center of life.

985
01:00:41,984 --> 01:00:48,550
And why would you, what, Why would we
not take up that opportunity or at least

986
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:56,000
we, you know, need to be offered the
opportunity to have that, uh, experience.

987
01:00:56,050 --> 01:00:56,090
Do

988
01:00:56,090 --> 01:00:59,510
Catherine: you feel that it's
changed how you live your life

989
01:00:59,810 --> 01:01:01,550
since you actually started tender?

990
01:01:02,175 --> 01:01:07,805
Jenny: Well, I have been around death
a lot in my life, and I, I think,

991
01:01:07,935 --> 01:01:11,905
yeah, I think probably, I think,

992
01:01:15,364 --> 01:01:19,614
I'm sure it has, I mean, I don't think
it's possible that it wouldn't have,

993
01:01:19,965 --> 01:01:25,180
you know, I think it's, it's, it's, It's
meant that you have to be, you know, I'm

994
01:01:25,180 --> 01:01:30,510
aware I need to be not just working, but
living my life, you know, so even if I

995
01:01:30,540 --> 01:01:34,410
want to, so last week, for instance, I
was really tired, I was going to Melbourne

996
01:01:34,410 --> 01:01:38,279
one day, we had, I bought a stickers to
go and see the Sydney Symphony, me and

997
01:01:38,279 --> 01:01:42,010
my partner were like, Oh, we're really
tired, I'm like, we're going, you know,

998
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:48,140
because I'm not, I want my life, you
know, and we went and we were like, that

999
01:01:48,140 --> 01:01:53,760
was so great, you know, it's like, so not
just being aware, you know, Just being

1000
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:59,760
aware, I think, does, I think there's a
stage just when someone dies, when you're

1001
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:04,909
in a sort of a more liminal state that
you have access to things that are, you

1002
01:02:04,909 --> 01:02:09,439
have access to that understanding in
a different way than an everyday way.

1003
01:02:09,509 --> 01:02:16,020
So, I think, you know, that being in
those moments can propel you into that.

1004
01:02:16,735 --> 01:02:21,635
In, into more moments like that, but you
have to keep feeding that in yourself,

1005
01:02:21,845 --> 01:02:26,284
you know, and, and sometimes I find
that challenging to keep feeding that

1006
01:02:26,285 --> 01:02:32,514
in myself because, you know, it's,
it's, but if we lived in a culture where

1007
01:02:32,554 --> 01:02:34,245
that was true, that would be easier.

1008
01:02:35,585 --> 01:02:36,185
Catherine: Yeah.

1009
01:02:36,255 --> 01:02:36,575
Yep.

1010
01:02:37,194 --> 01:02:41,474
And that's interesting because I,
I refer to it as perhaps, you know,

1011
01:02:42,064 --> 01:02:44,424
the white noise is, is not as loud.

1012
01:02:45,010 --> 01:02:49,980
Uh, in everyday life and the volume
is, is turned down a little bit

1013
01:02:50,030 --> 01:02:52,270
and, and you can actually really.

1014
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:57,100
You know, spend time focusing on the
things that matter and, and the example

1015
01:02:57,100 --> 01:03:01,730
that you gave, you know, last, last
week is, is perfect because, you know,

1016
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:06,570
like the, the importance is that you
spend time with your partner and family,

1017
01:03:06,610 --> 01:03:12,079
you know, out of that week, you know,
and the folk remains, there's, I think

1018
01:03:12,079 --> 01:03:14,870
there's a, a clarity that you perhaps

1019
01:03:15,690 --> 01:03:16,100
Jenny: Yeah.

1020
01:03:16,140 --> 01:03:18,570
I think the other thing
is that you're more open.

1021
01:03:18,580 --> 01:03:22,100
So like when I go to something
like that, if I'm at, it

1022
01:03:22,180 --> 01:03:24,029
feeds you in a different way.

1023
01:03:25,130 --> 01:03:27,140
So nature, it's like being in nature.

1024
01:03:27,170 --> 01:03:29,519
It's like you, it feeds you differently.

1025
01:03:30,245 --> 01:03:32,135
If you're open to being fed by it.

1026
01:03:32,165 --> 01:03:37,125
And I know that for me, uh, and
culture is like food or like

1027
01:03:37,125 --> 01:03:39,055
medicine, nature's like medicine.

1028
01:03:39,385 --> 01:03:42,465
And I know that because, because of death.

1029
01:03:43,624 --> 01:03:50,075
So I think it is about making sure
a lot, like the thing it's, it's,

1030
01:03:52,714 --> 01:03:55,255
it's giving access to yourself.

1031
01:03:55,605 --> 01:04:00,965
It's like, for those things to come,
to come in and do their work in you.

1032
01:04:01,455 --> 01:04:04,825
Like, so I don't know
if that makes sense, but

1033
01:04:05,015 --> 01:04:05,855
Catherine: no, no, it does.

1034
01:04:05,875 --> 01:04:06,445
It totally.

1035
01:04:06,455 --> 01:04:09,225
Well, for me, for me,
it totally makes sense.

1036
01:04:09,285 --> 01:04:13,014
But at the same time, you know, you're
talking to someone who worked in.

1037
01:04:13,305 --> 01:04:16,765
Programming and interpretation
in a botanic garden for 13 years.

1038
01:04:16,765 --> 01:04:17,563
You

1039
01:04:17,563 --> 01:04:20,756
Jenny: get it, you get

1040
01:04:20,756 --> 01:04:21,554
Catherine: it.

1041
01:04:22,615 --> 01:04:26,374
But I think that, is that the
reason why I noticed that you've

1042
01:04:26,375 --> 01:04:28,904
got a artist in residency program?

1043
01:04:29,355 --> 01:04:32,895
Is, is that the reason why you've
used that to perhaps also tap

1044
01:04:32,925 --> 01:04:37,125
into the way in which, uh, can
open those doors and connect

1045
01:04:37,615 --> 01:04:37,665
Jenny: people?

1046
01:04:38,235 --> 01:04:43,110
I think the artist in residence program,
we, you know, We have, we don't have

1047
01:04:43,110 --> 01:04:45,779
an artist in residence at the moment
because we've got to get funding for

1048
01:04:45,780 --> 01:04:52,500
that, but we have, uh, our aftercare
program is an arts, we have a choir

1049
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:59,169
and we have a, uh, making group,
like a, it's like a sewing group,

1050
01:04:59,170 --> 01:05:01,219
but it's much more complex than this.

1051
01:05:01,259 --> 01:05:03,000
Like, it's like a group that get together.

1052
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:07,910
So there are two aftercare projects so
that people can come and sing because

1053
01:05:07,910 --> 01:05:10,080
there's a lot of talking in the world.

1054
01:05:10,695 --> 01:05:14,305
You know, you can go and get it,
have some good, but so it's really,

1055
01:05:14,305 --> 01:05:18,705
this is really about offering
a, an outlet for expression.

1056
01:05:19,664 --> 01:05:23,715
And yes, that is why, that's
probably is why, but the

1057
01:05:23,715 --> 01:05:25,435
musical, so we have musicians.

1058
01:05:25,955 --> 01:05:30,375
We have, so people, if they want to,
there's an offering in tender that people,

1059
01:05:30,685 --> 01:05:34,270
you know, even from, People might say
they want somebody to come and sing in the

1060
01:05:34,270 --> 01:05:38,420
mortuary, and we've had that happen, that
would, you know, from, they'll pay for

1061
01:05:38,460 --> 01:05:42,830
the musician to come in and sing while the
boat, while we're wrapping somebody, or,

1062
01:05:42,940 --> 01:05:50,140
uh, or they'll, they'll want to, um, paint
a coffin, and they want some sort of, you

1063
01:05:50,140 --> 01:05:54,450
know, assistance with that, or they want
to create a ceremony, and they'll get

1064
01:05:54,540 --> 01:05:56,520
some assistance with creating a ceremony.

1065
01:05:56,850 --> 01:05:59,680
So it's really like having
access to people in the

1066
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:01,869
community who people can come.

1067
01:06:02,425 --> 01:06:07,185
And get some assistance for, and I think
it's also really trying, we've got a

1068
01:06:07,195 --> 01:06:12,265
book, it's on the website as well, called
Ceremony, and it's really about saying

1069
01:06:13,645 --> 01:06:15,905
everything, anything can be a ceremony.

1070
01:06:15,905 --> 01:06:18,845
It's what, it's, it's really
about what your intention is.

1071
01:06:18,855 --> 01:06:26,045
So you could, instead of having a funeral,
you could have dinner, you know, and you,

1072
01:06:26,115 --> 01:06:30,205
uh, could all sit around and have dinner,
the body can be there, then you can.

1073
01:06:30,575 --> 01:06:35,385
Take the body to the crematorium, or
lunch, or you could have a picnic,

1074
01:06:35,515 --> 01:06:39,555
or you could have, it doesn't matter
what you're doing, what matters,

1075
01:06:39,585 --> 01:06:43,574
or you could make a shrine, or you
could sew something together, or

1076
01:06:43,574 --> 01:06:45,645
you could write a song together.

1077
01:06:46,414 --> 01:06:51,205
But whatever that is, that's a
ceremony if you make it a ceremony.

1078
01:06:51,905 --> 01:06:57,090
So we don't have to sit in a church, we
don't have to, You know, we don't have

1079
01:06:57,120 --> 01:06:58,290
to do anything we don't want to do.

1080
01:06:58,290 --> 01:07:02,350
We can just sit in silence, you know,
and quite a few people come into tender.

1081
01:07:02,650 --> 01:07:04,320
They'll wash and dress people.

1082
01:07:04,590 --> 01:07:07,590
They'll, everyone will be there.

1083
01:07:07,909 --> 01:07:10,080
They'll have a cup of tea.

1084
01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:12,430
They'll have a bit of cake, they'll talk.

1085
01:07:12,710 --> 01:07:17,369
And then at some point they'll go, we're
ready and we'll put the lid on the coffin.

1086
01:07:17,460 --> 01:07:17,970
They're done.

1087
01:07:18,020 --> 01:07:20,520
That's the ceremony, you know?

1088
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:24,570
So I think it's that opening things up to.

1089
01:07:25,205 --> 01:07:30,695
It's again what people, opening people's
up, people up to their own imagination

1090
01:07:30,705 --> 01:07:37,320
about what they want, is really, uh, Love,
I mean, people are amazing what they do.

1091
01:07:38,300 --> 01:07:42,230
And even like, not having a funeral
celebrant, but having them do their

1092
01:07:42,270 --> 01:07:49,820
own funeral, like, you know, I've been
to some amazing funerals where people

1093
01:07:49,820 --> 01:07:52,359
have done their own funerals, I think.

1094
01:07:52,819 --> 01:07:58,520
We also have a, uh, Memorial picnic, or
which came from Zenith Farago, a lot of

1095
01:07:58,550 --> 01:08:03,030
the stuff that we've done, Zenith has
done in the past and still does, and

1096
01:08:03,030 --> 01:08:07,239
has helped our community and trained
our community, because she's incredible.

1097
01:08:07,610 --> 01:08:12,909
And, you know, it's not, and it's
the same with Lynette, really, a lot

1098
01:08:12,910 --> 01:08:18,300
of her visionary, uh, imagining and
telling a story and getting to the

1099
01:08:18,300 --> 01:08:20,669
heart of a story is formed who we are.

1100
01:08:20,850 --> 01:08:23,810
You know, so I think
certainly it's not me.

1101
01:08:23,860 --> 01:08:25,670
It's not just, you know,
I've been a part of it.

1102
01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:30,260
It's not, you know, it's
not, uh, it never is nothing.

1103
01:08:30,530 --> 01:08:33,039
There's no such thing
as a founder, really.

1104
01:08:33,219 --> 01:08:39,249
There's only, there's only somebody,
there's only like everyone doing it

1105
01:08:39,249 --> 01:08:44,630
together because, you know, it can't be
about one person because if that something

1106
01:08:44,630 --> 01:08:49,510
happens to that one person, then it's
just, actually, it's just not possible.

1107
01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:50,620
It's not possible.

1108
01:08:51,100 --> 01:08:52,710
That, that, you know, that that happens.

1109
01:08:53,050 --> 01:08:57,210
But we have a memorial event, we
have a memorial, uh, picnic, because

1110
01:08:57,210 --> 01:08:58,550
Zenith has been doing that for years.

1111
01:08:58,550 --> 01:09:00,280
We've done it as part of our practice.

1112
01:09:00,910 --> 01:09:05,569
But we also, at our memorial event,
we, everyone brings the food of the

1113
01:09:05,590 --> 01:09:11,119
person that's died, like their favorite
food, and they write a little card.

1114
01:09:11,969 --> 01:09:13,419
And they write a little card.

1115
01:09:13,859 --> 01:09:14,669
It's so great.

1116
01:09:14,689 --> 01:09:18,720
It's so funny, because like there's,
and then people put it on the table,

1117
01:09:18,750 --> 01:09:21,770
and it's the most eclectic table.

1118
01:09:22,195 --> 01:09:25,985
There's like Kentucky Fried
Chicken and Pikelets and Prawns

1119
01:09:26,035 --> 01:09:29,195
and Roast Lamb and Fairy Bread.

1120
01:09:29,355 --> 01:09:30,305
It's hilarious.

1121
01:09:30,315 --> 01:09:31,355
It's hilarious.

1122
01:09:31,915 --> 01:09:36,885
But you're eating, but people, I would
really love, I mean, if I was going

1123
01:09:36,885 --> 01:09:40,335
to do a national event, it would be a
national, let's cook the food of you.

1124
01:09:40,364 --> 01:09:42,914
In fact, we might do that
in a couple of years.

1125
01:09:42,914 --> 01:09:44,454
Let's cook the food of your person.

1126
01:09:44,750 --> 01:09:49,680
event, because everything is, and the
reason I've thought of that was that

1127
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:54,120
after my mother died, suddenly, my
mother was not a very good cook, but

1128
01:09:54,120 --> 01:10:00,059
she could cook spaghetti bolognese,
and, and about after my mother died,

1129
01:10:00,060 --> 01:10:05,230
suddenly, like, You know, I don't even
like spaghetti bolognese, but I cooked

1130
01:10:05,250 --> 01:10:07,190
spaghetti bolognese maybe a year later.

1131
01:10:07,190 --> 01:10:10,440
And my friend Lynette rang me and
said, I'm cooking spaghetti bolognese.

1132
01:10:10,780 --> 01:10:12,089
You know, that's your mother.

1133
01:10:12,440 --> 01:10:14,939
And my sister said, I'm
cooking spaghetti bolognese.

1134
01:10:14,940 --> 01:10:16,640
It was like my mother had sort of gone.

1135
01:10:17,990 --> 01:10:18,690
I would look.

1136
01:10:19,350 --> 01:10:20,310
Yeah, right?

1137
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:25,950
So, but what that does is bring those
people so close to you, you know,

1138
01:10:26,620 --> 01:10:29,610
often people are up, you know, when
they come to the picnic, they're like,

1139
01:10:29,660 --> 01:10:34,599
Oh, I've been up all night baking
Nan's cookies, crying into the batter.

1140
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:36,840
Catherine: So special.

1141
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:42,840
I, my, one of my very first podcasts I
did was with a friend of mine that I went

1142
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:47,949
to school with and she showed me the item
that she received from, that she inherited

1143
01:10:47,949 --> 01:10:50,130
or, or, or got from when her mum died.

1144
01:10:50,130 --> 01:10:54,510
And that was the icing sugar bowl
that she always had done the icing

1145
01:10:54,580 --> 01:10:56,750
sugar for the birthday cakes.

1146
01:10:56,780 --> 01:10:58,140
And that is her thing.

1147
01:10:58,170 --> 01:11:05,145
And that is, She continued that tradition
with her children and we have a dish that

1148
01:11:05,145 --> 01:11:12,305
we, we actually call mussels allodora, uh,
because it was, uh, it's a Greek dish that

1149
01:11:12,315 --> 01:11:16,995
you, well, I don't know what the origin is
Greek, but it was my Greek girlfriend and

1150
01:11:17,024 --> 01:11:18,319
her Greek mother that It's really good.

1151
01:11:18,470 --> 01:11:23,080
Always cooked it and it was, you
know, just mussels, rice, white wine,

1152
01:11:23,130 --> 01:11:26,570
the, the, it goes, the mussels open
up, the rice goes in the mussels.

1153
01:11:26,820 --> 01:11:32,000
And every time we cook it, we actually
send a photo to my girlfriend and in, in

1154
01:11:32,039 --> 01:11:37,139
homage to her mother, you know, like there
is something so beautiful about that.

1155
01:11:37,140 --> 01:11:37,839
So.

1156
01:11:38,140 --> 01:11:42,577
I'm, I'm going to be your
first attendee at the picnic.

1157
01:11:42,577 --> 01:11:43,210
Well,

1158
01:11:43,210 --> 01:11:44,474
Jenny: it's happening.

1159
01:11:44,474 --> 01:11:48,360
I actually, funnily enough, this year,
I can't go because I've got to do

1160
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:49,619
something else, but it's on every year.

1161
01:11:49,619 --> 01:11:50,650
I'll send you an invite.

1162
01:11:50,989 --> 01:11:56,280
The invite will be, anybody can
come, but it is a really, uh, it's

1163
01:11:56,280 --> 01:11:58,040
always at Mount Kira Scout Camp.

1164
01:11:58,090 --> 01:12:05,720
I think the other thing to say about this
whole thing is about nature, is really

1165
01:12:05,740 --> 01:12:13,025
about, you know, Access to nature, and
in all of the funeral homes that we,

1166
01:12:13,445 --> 01:12:18,215
that we have, we're trying to say, make
sure in the mortuary you can see the sky,

1167
01:12:18,455 --> 01:12:25,104
or make sure you can go into a garden,
because, because nature will bring us

1168
01:12:25,104 --> 01:12:31,905
back to life all the time, and that, it's
so, you know, and often, And often when

1169
01:12:31,905 --> 01:12:35,865
people, like when we do a ceremony, when
I used to do ceremonies, I don't do many

1170
01:12:35,865 --> 01:12:40,795
anymore, but you know, we always tell the
story of the death, we always say this

1171
01:12:40,795 --> 01:12:42,805
is what happened for a couple of reasons.

1172
01:12:43,135 --> 01:12:47,434
And that's another wisdom of Zenith
Virago is actually to say, I'm going to

1173
01:12:47,445 --> 01:12:49,535
stop everybody wondering what happened.

1174
01:12:49,565 --> 01:12:50,865
I'm going to tell you what happened.

1175
01:12:51,405 --> 01:12:54,645
And so no matter what's happened,
if it's when someone chose to end

1176
01:12:54,645 --> 01:12:58,169
their own life or when it's a car
accident or when it's a death.

1177
01:12:58,580 --> 01:13:00,330
expected death or an unexpected death.

1178
01:13:02,440 --> 01:13:04,690
Often when you're getting that story,
when you're saying to the person,

1179
01:13:04,690 --> 01:13:05,960
can you tell me what happened?

1180
01:13:05,980 --> 01:13:08,450
Cause you've got to get,
find out what happened.

1181
01:13:08,770 --> 01:13:11,800
Then you're sitting with
somebody and you say, and then

1182
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:12,960
they say, and then they died.

1183
01:13:12,970 --> 01:13:14,730
And then you say, and then what happened?

1184
01:13:15,100 --> 01:13:17,359
And I tell you, something always happens.

1185
01:13:17,780 --> 01:13:22,590
They go, Oh, one woman said to
me, Oh, a flock of birds landed

1186
01:13:22,590 --> 01:13:26,690
on the windowsill or not just one
bird, a whole lot of birds, right?

1187
01:13:27,060 --> 01:13:29,960
Or there was a storm or the sun came out.

1188
01:13:30,500 --> 01:13:30,950
Because

1189
01:13:33,430 --> 01:13:38,470
And so what happens then, the
story ends with back into life.

1190
01:13:39,710 --> 01:13:43,009
So it's just a really helpful
thing to get people, well, to

1191
01:13:43,020 --> 01:13:50,370
remind people to remember their own
story about when someone has died.

1192
01:13:50,390 --> 01:13:54,190
Not always something happens, but
honestly, mostly something will

1193
01:13:54,190 --> 01:13:59,170
either happen then, or in a couple,
or when they walk outside, or the

1194
01:13:59,170 --> 01:14:01,330
next morning, they're in the garden.

1195
01:14:02,210 --> 01:14:08,200
But if they are aware to look
for it, something, nature

1196
01:14:08,200 --> 01:14:09,500
will give them something.

1197
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:14,250
And that's why when, when we're
talking to cemeteries now, I'm always

1198
01:14:14,260 --> 01:14:19,019
saying to them, please put an outdoor
ceremony space in your cemetery.

1199
01:14:19,260 --> 01:14:20,120
Please do that.

1200
01:14:20,170 --> 01:14:27,840
Because that's just, It's so
helpful to have something in the

1201
01:14:27,840 --> 01:14:31,380
middle of life and that it's just
so helpful to do that for people.

1202
01:14:33,580 --> 01:14:34,080
Catherine: It is.

1203
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:36,669
I totally agree with you.

1204
01:14:36,789 --> 01:14:43,760
I remember when my husband's father
died and I was pregnant with our son

1205
01:14:43,870 --> 01:14:46,809
and it became all about rainbows.

1206
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:47,970
Yeah.

1207
01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:53,880
And he was, he was palliative, uh,
for a period of time and rainbows

1208
01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:56,280
became the thing that represented him.

1209
01:14:56,280 --> 01:14:59,610
And yeah, when he died, we saw a rainbow.

1210
01:14:59,615 --> 01:15:05,070
It, it is really uncanny because it does
actually just, you know, even though

1211
01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:10,670
it is about his death, it is also so
much about what's still here and what

1212
01:15:10,670 --> 01:15:12,290
you still can connect with, you know?

1213
01:15:12,410 --> 01:15:12,740
Jenny: Yeah.

1214
01:15:13,150 --> 01:15:15,770
But if we are in it.

1215
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:21,140
If we're allowed to have a process,
we can remember it, you know, we can,

1216
01:15:21,500 --> 01:15:27,300
yeah, we can make sure we keep it, keep
the treasure, you know, I don't know.

1217
01:15:28,619 --> 01:15:33,380
It just happens so often that
you have to say, uh, you know,

1218
01:15:33,389 --> 01:15:36,379
nature really plays her part.

1219
01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:42,050
If we can, if we can, if we can let,
if we, if we can let her really.

1220
01:15:42,855 --> 01:15:43,105
Yeah,

1221
01:15:43,485 --> 01:15:47,615
Catherine: and I think that's why, you
know, in First Nations people across the

1222
01:15:47,615 --> 01:15:53,875
world, you know, nature is always, uh, the
big truth teller or the one of significant

1223
01:15:53,875 --> 01:15:58,264
times, because when nature changes, that's
when it signifies something, you know.

1224
01:15:58,264 --> 01:15:59,144
Jenny: Absolutely.

1225
01:15:59,215 --> 01:16:01,839
And, and, and look, I think.

1226
01:16:02,500 --> 01:16:06,160
I think really with tender,
it's not rocket science tender.

1227
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:10,780
It's just this simple thing
with reconnecting people

1228
01:16:10,780 --> 01:16:13,490
with their own intelligence.

1229
01:16:13,620 --> 01:16:20,399
And I mean, deep intelligence about
this, you know, with, you know, you could

1230
01:16:20,399 --> 01:16:25,230
say spirit, you could say, you know,
whatever it is in people, but there's

1231
01:16:25,230 --> 01:16:28,380
a deep knowing in, in us about it.

1232
01:16:28,410 --> 01:16:35,240
And, and, uh, once, once people can
move through their fear about it.

1233
01:16:36,535 --> 01:16:39,785
You know, and they can, you know, we're
never going to get rid of fear about

1234
01:16:39,785 --> 01:16:43,725
anything, you can just go and be afraid of
something else, you know, but you might as

1235
01:16:43,725 --> 01:16:49,815
well, you might as well not remain afraid
of the same thing all the time, you know,

1236
01:16:49,835 --> 01:16:56,385
it's like, anyway, I think that, that's
why it can't be claimed as anybody's idea,

1237
01:16:56,435 --> 01:16:59,085
truthfully, is that it's everybody's idea.

1238
01:16:59,110 --> 01:17:00,589
And

1239
01:17:01,170 --> 01:17:06,570
Catherine: I think, I think what you
were referring to about your friend

1240
01:17:06,570 --> 01:17:11,960
Lynette Walworth, you know, and her
saying when they see the film, you know,

1241
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:17,009
and let's be honest, the film was, was
aired at the Adelaide Film Festival.

1242
01:17:17,010 --> 01:17:22,880
So, you know, it was pretty prominent,
but the storytelling and the

1243
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:25,550
narrative of that particular film.

1244
01:17:26,540 --> 01:17:30,630
is very engaging, but it's also
very, very personal as well.

1245
01:17:30,650 --> 01:17:35,070
You know, it was the unexpected
personal challenges that you also

1246
01:17:35,070 --> 01:17:36,760
went through as part of that.

1247
01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:41,290
And people can, can read the, you know,
about the milk film and we can send

1248
01:17:41,290 --> 01:17:43,300
a link to people on the show notes.

1249
01:17:43,540 --> 01:17:47,859
So that was also that insight
that I think that people connected

1250
01:17:47,859 --> 01:17:49,249
with the fact that it was real.

1251
01:17:49,819 --> 01:17:53,169
And I think when you're
connecting to people.

1252
01:17:53,830 --> 01:17:54,750
And it's real.

1253
01:17:54,780 --> 01:17:57,920
I think that that's a
really powerful thing.

1254
01:17:58,830 --> 01:18:04,990
And you've, the, the, the story of Tender
Funerals is, is really well publicised.

1255
01:18:05,010 --> 01:18:08,310
You know, you've been on
ABC's Australian Story.

1256
01:18:08,319 --> 01:18:11,200
You've been on ABC Conversations
with Richard Feidler.

1257
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:14,750
But what do you personally take away?

1258
01:18:14,975 --> 01:18:18,745
after this amount of time and
it may change, but up until this

1259
01:18:18,745 --> 01:18:21,435
point, what do you think has been
your greatest success, Jenny?

1260
01:18:22,865 --> 01:18:25,205
Jenny: Uh, oh, it's so interesting.

1261
01:18:26,325 --> 01:18:29,415
I honestly don't think
it's my success, honestly.

1262
01:18:29,474 --> 01:18:34,555
I think, I think, I think what I'm,

1263
01:18:38,575 --> 01:18:40,174
I don't know the answer to that question.

1264
01:18:40,194 --> 01:18:41,759
I, because I think it's,

1265
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:48,720
It's like Tender wanted to be,
I mean, Tender wanted to be born

1266
01:18:48,950 --> 01:18:50,810
and, you know, it wanted to happen.

1267
01:18:51,650 --> 01:18:53,240
Just somehow it wanted to happen.

1268
01:18:53,559 --> 01:18:55,280
And so,

1269
01:18:57,949 --> 01:19:01,940
I don't know, maybe it, it's, I really
don't know the answer to the question.

1270
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:03,180
That's the greatest success.

1271
01:19:03,589 --> 01:19:07,610
Look, for me, the greatest success
hasn't, it would be a system change

1272
01:19:07,760 --> 01:19:09,790
for me, that this became ordinary.

1273
01:19:10,105 --> 01:19:15,635
that deaf became an ordinary
and natural part of our lives.

1274
01:19:15,635 --> 01:19:21,555
And for me, that's got to do with living
in a culture where people are grown up.

1275
01:19:21,615 --> 01:19:23,145
You know, this is our job.

1276
01:19:23,615 --> 01:19:24,625
We can do it.

1277
01:19:24,894 --> 01:19:25,895
We're capable.

1278
01:19:26,735 --> 01:19:30,675
And That, for me, would change
everything about the world,

1279
01:19:32,585 --> 01:19:34,115
about the world we live in.

1280
01:19:34,235 --> 01:19:38,474
So my motivation for doing it,
probably for keep doing it, is that,

1281
01:19:38,545 --> 01:19:40,345
actually, that I think part of,

1282
01:19:42,925 --> 01:19:47,944
part of what we need in the world
is for what I feel, I, the world,

1283
01:19:47,985 --> 01:19:49,924
I, I want to live in the world.

1284
01:19:50,024 --> 01:19:51,425
I want to live in that world.

1285
01:19:51,945 --> 01:19:57,595
So I can't just expect somebody
else to create that for me.

1286
01:19:57,655 --> 01:19:59,395
I've got, I want to live in that world.

1287
01:19:59,685 --> 01:20:01,855
So I should contribute.

1288
01:20:02,805 --> 01:20:05,915
to that world being, uh,

1289
01:20:08,305 --> 01:20:09,575
coming into being.

1290
01:20:10,035 --> 01:20:14,784
And part of that is about, you know,
one of the things is to, is for us to

1291
01:20:14,805 --> 01:20:20,190
realize that, you know, That all, that
life is precious and short, we're gonna

1292
01:20:20,190 --> 01:20:26,870
die, and at some, and so let's live
our lives, and let's, and let's, uh,

1293
01:20:29,690 --> 01:20:36,679
let's be sort of grown up about taking
care about that, what life, what, what

1294
01:20:36,690 --> 01:20:40,820
leaving a healthy planet behind means,
what, what is our, it's one of our

1295
01:20:40,820 --> 01:20:42,550
responsibilities, caring for our dead.

1296
01:20:43,260 --> 01:20:45,270
The other one is not
using all the resources.

1297
01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:49,890
For the children, you know, let's
leave something for the children.

1298
01:20:50,110 --> 01:20:53,590
So, I think that's the sort of
world I want to live in, and so

1299
01:20:53,610 --> 01:20:55,380
this is my contribution to that.

1300
01:20:55,389 --> 01:21:00,419
And we're not anywhere near that,
and that won't happen in my lifetime,

1301
01:21:00,419 --> 01:21:06,619
but I'm very happy to be part of
a movement for system change, uh,

1302
01:21:07,280 --> 01:21:12,640
and I've been incredibly blessed by
having people around me, my family.

1303
01:21:13,050 --> 01:21:17,450
You know, my partner, honestly, is
like, in the first 12 months of tenure,

1304
01:21:17,510 --> 01:21:20,440
I've been like, we need getting him
up in the middle of the night to

1305
01:21:20,440 --> 01:21:22,110
go and pick somebody up who died.

1306
01:21:22,120 --> 01:21:25,060
He's like, I don't know where this
was in the contract, actually.

1307
01:21:25,089 --> 01:21:30,250
Like, you know, I'm like, well, just shut
up and get in the car with me, you know?

1308
01:21:30,620 --> 01:21:31,579
So it's like that.

1309
01:21:31,579 --> 01:21:32,900
It's like, we're all in it together.

1310
01:21:32,939 --> 01:21:37,590
But you know, Lynette making that
film and she made that film with the

1311
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:41,709
conscious idea that we would get funding.

1312
01:21:42,165 --> 01:21:46,145
If we made that film and we got funding
from, and the, when we were funded, the

1313
01:21:46,145 --> 01:21:50,715
people who watched, had watched the film
who funded us in the very first tender.

1314
01:21:51,114 --> 01:21:55,234
So, it's all of that, it's all of that
and, and Zenith having done that work

1315
01:21:55,234 --> 01:21:59,635
and having just been, you know, I rang
Zenith and said, we want to do this.

1316
01:22:00,285 --> 01:22:01,455
And can you help me?

1317
01:22:01,465 --> 01:22:04,565
And she said, if you pick me up
from the airport and drive me to.

1318
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:08,250
The Southern Highlands, I'll
tell you everything I know.

1319
01:22:08,570 --> 01:22:10,820
And she did, and we've
been friends ever since.

1320
01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:12,820
Catherine: Oh, that's amazing.

1321
01:22:13,670 --> 01:22:14,900
Jenny: So that's what it's like.

1322
01:22:15,909 --> 01:22:19,010
So that's why I'm saying
it's not any one person.

1323
01:22:19,100 --> 01:22:20,519
It's like all of us together.

1324
01:22:20,529 --> 01:22:24,949
And that continues with all of these
incredible, most people who are

1325
01:22:24,949 --> 01:22:29,579
starting tenders work for four years
voluntarily to start a tender to give

1326
01:22:29,579 --> 01:22:34,340
their community this gift that the
community doesn't think they need

1327
01:22:34,490 --> 01:22:36,280
until the minute that they need it.

1328
01:22:37,935 --> 01:22:45,345
That's, they're all visionary people, they
all can, they all can imagine creating

1329
01:22:45,345 --> 01:22:47,005
something like that, that people need.

1330
01:22:47,035 --> 01:22:47,404
That's awesome.

1331
01:22:48,345 --> 01:22:53,145
Extraordinary, they're extraordinary
people, you know, so that's

1332
01:22:53,145 --> 01:22:59,545
why I would say it's not, I'm
the least of them, truthfully.

1333
01:22:59,795 --> 01:23:04,915
And that's not me being like, oh, you
know, it's just me being, uh, uh, you

1334
01:23:05,095 --> 01:23:06,755
can't do anything like this on your own.

1335
01:23:08,415 --> 01:23:13,150
Catherine: Well, Jetty, I think
that, um, You're pretty amazing for

1336
01:23:13,660 --> 01:23:19,270
providing a framework in which people
can, you know, realize their full

1337
01:23:19,280 --> 01:23:25,710
potential and support what the ideals
and values of tender funerals are.

1338
01:23:26,160 --> 01:23:28,409
And I can't thank you
enough for your time today.

1339
01:23:28,409 --> 01:23:29,449
It's been really beautiful.

1340
01:23:29,759 --> 01:23:30,300
Jenny: Thank you.

1341
01:23:30,310 --> 01:23:31,830
Thank you for the opportunity.

1342
01:23:31,860 --> 01:23:33,635
And uh, I appreciate it.

1343
01:23:36,215 --> 01:23:39,665
Catherine: We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,

1344
01:23:39,965 --> 01:23:41,735
brought to you by Critical Info.

1345
01:23:42,475 --> 01:23:46,735
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1346
01:23:46,735 --> 01:23:48,535
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1347
01:23:48,805 --> 01:23:52,405
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1348
01:23:52,405 --> 01:23:54,145
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1349
01:23:54,195 --> 01:23:58,485
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1350
01:23:58,485 --> 01:24:00,225
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1351
01:24:00,525 --> 01:24:01,845
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1352
01:24:01,995 --> 01:24:03,015
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1353
01:24:03,020 --> 01:24:06,915
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