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Maybe we'd be able to take people who are
dying somehow put them in stasis where

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they're unchanging, un sort of inert.

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And then at some future time point,
pull 'em out, restore them to

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health, cure their cancer or injury
or whatever was harming them, and

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then they can continue living.

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... Read More

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Maybe we'd be able to take people who are
dying somehow put them in stasis where

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00:00:07,740 --> 00:00:10,925
they're unchanging, un sort of inert.

3
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And then at some future time point,
pull 'em out, restore them to

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health, cure their cancer or injury
or whatever was harming them, and

5
00:00:19,185 --> 00:00:20,535
then they can continue living.

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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead.

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00:00:25,605 --> 00:00:30,615
A podcast encouraging open conversations
about dying and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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00:00:36,074 --> 00:00:40,815
bring your stories of death back to
life because while you may not be ready

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00:00:40,815 --> 00:00:43,335
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't be caught dead.

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Acknowledges the lands of the
Kulin Nations and recognizes their

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connection to land, sea, and community.

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We pay our respects to their elders
past, present, and emerging, and

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extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Today we are speaking with Ariel
Zeleznikow-Johnston, a neuroscientist

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based in Melbourne, and the author
of the Future Loves You, how

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and Why We Should Abolish Death.

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He is currently a research fellow
at Monash University working

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within the Monash Neuroscience
Consciousness Laboratory.

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His research focuses on developing
novel methods to characterize

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conscious experiences contributing to
the broader effort and to understand

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the neural basis of consciousness.

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Ariel completed his PhD at the
University of Melbourne in 2019

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where he investigated how genetic and
environmental factors influence cognition

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in both healthy and disease brains.

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He has published extensively across
the field of cognitive neuroscience

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with work spanning the decline,
preservation, and restoration of

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cognitive function across the lifespan,
as well as investigations into how

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people consciously experience color.

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As an author, Ariel explores how cutting
edge neuroscientific developments may

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one day make it possible to suspend
death through brain preservation.

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I. Potentially offering individuals
a chance of future revival.

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His work examines the scientific,
medical, and philosophical foundations

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underlying this radical proposition.

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Thank you so much for
being with us today, Ariel.

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Thanks for having me on the show.

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I have to say, I can't remember
how I came across your book.

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It might have been an interview
that you did on ABC Radio

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and I went, oh my goodness.

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I. Who is promising a
future without death?

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Is this possible?

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And so needless to say, I went and
purchased the book and have been

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taken on a fascinating journey
for the last month of reading it.

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So tell me what drew you to this
particular avenue of neuroscience

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and, and more specifically,
when we die and what happens?

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So my background is as a neuroscientist,
and I've always found neuroscience in

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general to be fascinating because it's
the combination of big philosophical

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questions of who we are and what
it is to be conscious, what it is

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to be a person combined with the
fun, sort of nitty gritty of like.

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How does biology make us who we are?

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How do our brains actually function?

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What are all these like
squishy cell things doing?

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And like, that's what I've
been working in for the past, I

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guess over 15 years now or so.

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But at the same time as working as an
actual scientist, I've always been really

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interested in both the past and future
of scientific and medical developments.

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So things like looking back to how we got
to the world we have today where we have.

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You know, antibiotics, surgery, anesthesia
compared to the primitive state of

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the world a few hundred years ago.

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And also looking forwards to, well, what
sort of things do we expect to come about

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in the decades and centuries to come?

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And as part of that, I enjoy reading
sci-fi and, and watching sci-fi.

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And in particular there's, there's
one sort of technology that's often

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explored in science fiction that is
quite relevant to, you know, discussions

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of death and future medicine, which is
this idea that like maybe we'd be able

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to take people who are dying somehow
put them in stasis where they're

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unchanging, un sort of inert, and then
at some future time point, pull 'em out.

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Restore them to health, cure their cancer
or injury or whatever was harming them.

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And then they can continue living.

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And when I came across this, like
in Futurama for one example, or in

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the movie Intertel, these sorts of
depictions, I used to wonder like, you

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know, is this, is this really real?

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Could it be real?

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Is it just a plot device that's used in
stories or is there something to this?

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And like, I guess I'd always speculated
on that in the back of my mind.

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But in the past decade or so, I
kept coming across, I guess, new

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developments that made me think maybe
there is something to this sort of

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idea of being able to make it work.

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The two big things being, we've developed
a much better understanding of how

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memories are actually stored in the brain.

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So like the structures that
underlie sort of the continuation

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of our psychology over time.

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And also some of the technologies
to preserve brains and preserve

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bodies has gotten a lot, lot
better in the recent past as well.

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So being aware of those, I was like,
well, maybe, maybe it would be good to

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actually dive in and see if anyone has
written like a proper write-up of like,

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you know, this is why maybe it could work.

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Or actually, here are all the technical
reasons why it's forever impossible.

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And when I went looking for that, I
realized firstly that there was no long

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form analysis of that, and secondly,
that like perhaps I was in a particularly

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good place to, to do the assessment.

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That's how I ended up doing the
work and writing up the book.

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And I think that was interesting, the
fact that when you were looking back,

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it made me really realize how far we
have come in such a short period of time

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in relation to, you know, a condition
such as diabetes you may have, you

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know, died of that many years ago.

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But now it's something that's just,
you can just take a tablet and,

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and you can manage it, or you have
insulin or, and there was many case

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studies that you used throughout the
book that clearly, you know, give an

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example of just how far we have come.

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So it made me start thinking well.

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I do wonder what we're going to
develop in the next 100 years and

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what that's going to look like.

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Yeah, it, it's very easy
to take for granted.

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The medical technology we have today is
basically always having been there or is

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like the absolute bare minimum standards
of, of what we expect people to have.

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So whether it's things like insulin
for diabetes, whether it's dialysis

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for people with kidney failure.

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Whether it's statins for people with
heart disease, these are all like

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very common and ubiquitous today.

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But most of these things were only
developed since the last 19th century

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or so, and there's a lot of people alive
today with chronic health conditions

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who just would've died in earlier times.

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In the most dramatic sense, it's the
case that prior to the late 19th century.

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One in two children died before
they reached the age of 15.

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Yeah.

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So we really shouldn't take
what we have today for granted.

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It, it's miraculous what we can do,
and hopefully people in the future

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will look back on technology we have
today as equivalently primitive.

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At least that's what I, I think is
worth exploring and taking seriously.

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And let's talk about how you
discuss that within the book.

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So I found it really interesting
that the term of medical term of

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when you're actually the definition
of death, I found that fascinating.

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00:08:08,545 --> 00:08:11,845
Could you maybe talk through
that, like how that is?

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Yeah, I, I think it's useful probably
thinking through it with a bit of

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historical context of how the definition
of death has changed over time.

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So.

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Prior to the middle of the 20th century
or so, people were defined as dead,

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just based on, you know, they stopped
breathing or their heart stopped.

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And that was a perfectly functional
definition because at that time

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point, there wasn't anything we
could do for people who'd stop

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breathing or stop having blood flow.

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00:08:37,875 --> 00:08:42,520
I. But with the invention of things
like ventilators to help people breathe

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even when their lungs had failed,
and then subsequently things like

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cardiopulmonary bypass machines, so
devices that could keep people's blood

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flowing even when their heart had stopped.

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I. It became apparent that, you know,
there were circumstances where it

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00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,880
seemed like people were still alive
despite heart and lung function,

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having at least temporarily ceased.

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00:09:02,190 --> 00:09:07,200
So in the 1950s and sixties and onwards,
people realized that we needed a more

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00:09:07,230 --> 00:09:09,450
sophisticated definition of death.

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And in particular in the US there was
an effort by legislators and ethicists

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00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,280
and doctors to come up with something.

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00:09:17,585 --> 00:09:21,935
Which ended up being called the Uniform
Determination of Death Act, which

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00:09:21,935 --> 00:09:26,495
involved defining someone as dead based
on one of two possible definitions.

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The first was that they'd
suffered irreversible cessation

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00:09:30,065 --> 00:09:31,745
of heart and lung functions.

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00:09:31,925 --> 00:09:36,185
So essentially the old definition, but
the newer definition that they also used

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00:09:36,335 --> 00:09:41,465
was defining someone as dead based on
irreversible cessation of all functions

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00:09:41,465 --> 00:09:45,125
of the brain, which is what we commonly
think of these days as brain death.

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So what that definition acknowledged
was that there are circumstances

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where, you know, sometimes people's
hearts and lungs have stopped for a

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while, but they can be brought back.

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They're still alive in that sense,
or there might be circumstances where

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00:10:00,345 --> 00:10:05,385
people's hearts and lungs are still
functioning either intact or with support

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from medical machines, but the person's
brain is essentially been destroyed,

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and they'll never be conscious again.

160
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Their memories are gone,
their personality's gone.

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And maybe in that circumstance, you
know, it, it feels like the person has

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00:10:18,885 --> 00:10:21,165
been lost and should be defined as dead.

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I think that was passed in the 1980s in
the US and it then became used generally

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00:10:26,670 --> 00:10:28,440
worldwide, including in Australia.

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00:10:28,860 --> 00:10:32,160
But even at the time, people noted
that there were still problems

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00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,430
with this updated definition
of death for two reasons.

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00:10:36,210 --> 00:10:41,130
The first was it defined people
as dead only if they've suffered a

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00:10:41,130 --> 00:10:43,175
cessation of all functions of the brain.

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00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,970
If you actually go and you look in the
brains of people who've been declared

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00:10:48,030 --> 00:10:52,170
brain dead while still being kept on
some life support, so heart and lung

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00:10:52,170 --> 00:10:56,520
function, you can often find little bits
of brain activity that are still going.

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So for example, their hypothalamus, a
small brain region controlling like body

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00:11:01,140 --> 00:11:05,400
temperature and some instincts is often
still functional in these patients.

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00:11:06,165 --> 00:11:09,015
Doctors are just like, well,
like that doesn't really matter.

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00:11:09,015 --> 00:11:10,035
It doesn't count.

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00:11:10,035 --> 00:11:11,505
Like the memories aren't there.

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00:11:11,505 --> 00:11:12,615
The consciousness isn't there.

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00:11:12,615 --> 00:11:15,855
It doesn't matter if their body
temperature's still going, which I think

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00:11:15,855 --> 00:11:19,545
is fair, but it does suggest that there's
something wrong with the definition.

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00:11:20,355 --> 00:11:25,365
The other part that's also problematic is
this irreversible cessation of all brain

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00:11:25,365 --> 00:11:27,495
functions being part of the definition.

182
00:11:28,454 --> 00:11:32,535
What's irreversible at some time
point might not stay irreversible.

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00:11:33,074 --> 00:11:36,405
So in the same sense that, you know,
once upon a time, if your heart and

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00:11:36,405 --> 00:11:39,944
lung stopped, you had irreversible
cessation of heart and lung function.

185
00:11:40,275 --> 00:11:42,765
Nowadays we have machines
to replace those.

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00:11:43,425 --> 00:11:47,564
In the same way we're increasingly
developing better and better sort of

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00:11:47,834 --> 00:11:53,084
brain implants, neural prosthesis,
which can replace lost brain functions.

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00:11:53,594 --> 00:11:55,995
And there's a question of
as that continues to get

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00:11:55,995 --> 00:11:57,375
better and better and better.

190
00:11:57,885 --> 00:12:02,204
How are we gonna define irreversible
cessation of all brain functions

191
00:12:02,505 --> 00:12:03,824
as part of a definition of death?

192
00:12:04,454 --> 00:12:09,045
And so given all that background,
that's why I and some other philosophers

193
00:12:09,074 --> 00:12:12,824
have a slightly different, and I
think better definition of how we

194
00:12:12,824 --> 00:12:14,415
should be defining people as dead.

195
00:12:14,415 --> 00:12:14,475
I.

196
00:12:14,815 --> 00:12:18,955
Well, I just have to ask Ariel, what is
that definition that you're proposing?

197
00:12:19,825 --> 00:12:24,655
Yeah, so a definition that was first
proposed again in the 1980s by, on the

198
00:12:24,655 --> 00:12:29,185
one hand, some bioethicists at Harvard,
and also almost simultaneously by a

199
00:12:29,185 --> 00:12:33,505
computer scientist, was this idea that
instead of defining someone as dead

200
00:12:33,505 --> 00:12:38,815
based on loss of heart functions or
breathing, or irreversible loss of all

201
00:12:38,815 --> 00:12:40,945
brain functions, including things like.

202
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,320
Controlling your body posture or
controlling your breathing rates.

203
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:50,710
What really matters is, you know,
for someone's survival is that their

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00:12:50,770 --> 00:12:53,860
consciousness still exists, that
their memories are still there, that

205
00:12:53,980 --> 00:12:57,670
their personality is still there, that
the things that make them them in a

206
00:12:57,670 --> 00:13:00,100
psychological sense are still continuing.

207
00:13:01,035 --> 00:13:04,995
And what they proposed is that, well,
if those are the things that matter for

208
00:13:04,995 --> 00:13:09,345
survival, then the definition of death
we should be using for when a person

209
00:13:09,345 --> 00:13:11,985
stops is when those things are lost.

210
00:13:12,195 --> 00:13:16,605
So basically defining death as the
irreversible loss of personal identity.

211
00:13:17,475 --> 00:13:20,745
And what that implies is both
that there might be circumstances

212
00:13:20,745 --> 00:13:24,015
where, you know, someone's brain
activity has stopped for a while.

213
00:13:24,390 --> 00:13:28,949
Either under anesthesia or in a
case like induced hypothermia, or

214
00:13:28,949 --> 00:13:33,810
even in the weird preservation cases
that I speculate on where as long

215
00:13:33,810 --> 00:13:37,469
as there's some chance someone could
be brought back in the future, that

216
00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:39,510
they may actually still be alive.

217
00:13:39,750 --> 00:13:41,910
They're just, you know,
not currently conscious.

218
00:13:42,900 --> 00:13:45,930
And that there might be other
circumstances where, you know, someone

219
00:13:45,930 --> 00:13:49,890
may have suffered extremely severe brain
damage to the point where they've had

220
00:13:50,070 --> 00:13:53,520
massive personality change or where
they're, they'll never be conscious

221
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again, where it's arguably questionable
that the person is still there.

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Even if there's some very primitive
functions remaining, like being able

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to drive breathing or maintain body
temperature or those sorts of things.

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Yeah, it's interesting.

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I, I think that what really in the
examples that you use were people who have

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had acquired brain injuries, how that has
impacted on their personality and who they

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are as a person, both before the injury
and then after the injury, and then also.

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Both from their reflections, but also
those perceptions of those around

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them I thought was really interesting.

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And also the fact that, you know, the
ability to make memories from there on in.

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Like if you have had some damage
sustained, I. You know, how much does that

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actually create, who we are as a person?

233
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So I find your whole discussion around
this topic really fascinating and

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perhaps if you could explain the term
connectome, because I know that you go

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speak a lot about levels of consciousness
and what consciousness means, where

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memories are stored in the brain,
where we think they are, where we, we.

237
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You know, there's still so much to learn,
but something that I did take out of your

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book was that term connectome, and I'd
love if you could explain that to us.

239
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Yeah.

240
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Okay.

241
00:15:16,370 --> 00:15:19,430
So I, I think one thing I should
just be very clear about before I get

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into this is just I wanna make clear
that I don't think any amount of.

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Brain damage or trauma is sufficient to,
you know, stop a person from existing

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or turn them into a different person.

245
00:15:30,625 --> 00:15:34,255
There's all sorts of circumstances
where people have mild brain injuries or

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concussions or things where, you know,
there's definitely a loss of neurons and

247
00:15:38,485 --> 00:15:42,835
some damage, but we, we continue to think
that someone is still the same person.

248
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Kind of what I get into in the book
though, is we can see these circumstances

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where there's increasing levels of
change or increasing levels of damage.

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Up to the point where there's complete
brain damage and complete loss of

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consciousness, and the question does
arise as to like, well, what level

252
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of damage or what level of integrity
is required for a person to continue

253
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to exist and continue to survive?

254
00:16:06,350 --> 00:16:10,400
Now, as part of trying to really give a
technical answer to that sort of question,

255
00:16:10,490 --> 00:16:13,130
you've gotta ask, well, what is a person?

256
00:16:13,130 --> 00:16:14,060
What is their brain?

257
00:16:14,060 --> 00:16:17,330
How does the structure of someone's
brain contain and give rise to

258
00:16:17,330 --> 00:16:18,650
their psychological properties?

259
00:16:19,230 --> 00:16:21,870
And as part of that to, to finally
get to your question about what the

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connectome is, that's the term that
neuroscientists use for the complete

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set of connections between brain cells
in a person or an animal's brain.

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That store all of the like neural
information that makes them who they are.

263
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So their memories, their personality,
all the, the things they've learned, or

264
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all the things that shape their behavior
that gets referred to as their connector.

265
00:16:46,935 --> 00:16:52,185
And to be really specific for a human,
that's all 86 billion or so neurons in

266
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your head, plus the roughly quadrillion
connections between those neurons.

267
00:16:57,405 --> 00:16:59,985
And for different animals,
it'll be different numbers.

268
00:17:00,525 --> 00:17:05,865
It's a homage to the term genome where
genome refers to the full 20,000 genes

269
00:17:05,865 --> 00:17:07,694
or so that make up each individual.

270
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Your connectome is the full
set of neural connections that

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give rise to your psychology.

272
00:17:13,514 --> 00:17:17,744
And I think when you stipulated
those numbers in the book, I'm like.

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Wow.

274
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And, and I think the comparison that you
drew to current computers and what their

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computing capabilities are, and then when
you compare it to the, the current brain,

276
00:17:30,815 --> 00:17:37,895
our brains are really working hard by
comparison, and the figures really blew

277
00:17:37,895 --> 00:17:41,825
my mind when you actually think that.

278
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Like this is all something
that happens naturally.

279
00:17:47,010 --> 00:17:47,220
Yeah.

280
00:17:47,220 --> 00:17:52,110
One thing that's incredible is today's
most advanced supercomputers have

281
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computing power that is probably
roughly equivalent to a human brain,

282
00:17:57,090 --> 00:18:00,660
except a human brain can run on a
sandwich, and these like computing

283
00:18:00,660 --> 00:18:04,350
clusters take essentially small
power plants worth of energy to run.

284
00:18:04,740 --> 00:18:07,200
So we are much more energy
efficient than these things.

285
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:08,550
We're a bit slower.

286
00:18:08,610 --> 00:18:12,570
They work on, on faster time speeds
due to the, the electronic components,

287
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,080
whereas human brains work on, you
know, tens of milliseconds, hundreds of

288
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,150
milliseconds, so eons compared to them.

289
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,000
But in terms of energy efficiency,
they've got nothing on us yet.

290
00:18:22,890 --> 00:18:23,760
I like that.

291
00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,730
It makes us feel that we are,
we are not redundant, you know,

292
00:18:26,755 --> 00:18:28,140
not for a few years at least.

293
00:18:28,170 --> 00:18:28,740
Yeah, yeah.

294
00:18:28,740 --> 00:18:29,610
Yeah, that's great.

295
00:18:29,940 --> 00:18:31,590
But it does really make me.

296
00:18:32,010 --> 00:18:39,060
Think just how difficult it must be to
try and work out what functionality is

297
00:18:39,060 --> 00:18:41,160
associated with what parts of the brain.

298
00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:45,150
When you see that there's that many
different, you know, electrical

299
00:18:45,450 --> 00:18:50,580
components as part of that that you,
you speak about, like it is phenomenal.

300
00:18:51,090 --> 00:18:51,150
Yeah.

301
00:18:51,150 --> 00:18:54,840
I mean it, so on the one hand,
neuroscience is still a very long

302
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,470
way from being able to give a full
description of how the brain works.

303
00:18:58,830 --> 00:19:02,760
In particular we're, we're stuck on
questions of like, how exactly is it that

304
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:04,379
the brain gives rise to consciousness?

305
00:19:04,649 --> 00:19:06,030
That that's still a long way from now.

306
00:19:06,750 --> 00:19:09,480
On the other hand, we have made
a lot of progress over the last

307
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,230
century or so in understanding
some of the basic elements and even

308
00:19:13,230 --> 00:19:14,760
some of the more complicated ones.

309
00:19:15,149 --> 00:19:19,215
So in the book, for example, I outline
with human studies, you can learn quite

310
00:19:19,260 --> 00:19:21,000
a lot from looking at cases where.

311
00:19:21,335 --> 00:19:25,265
People have had particular kinds
of brain injuries, or they've taken

312
00:19:25,265 --> 00:19:29,045
particular kinds of drugs, or they
have particular kinds of developmental

313
00:19:29,045 --> 00:19:33,935
variants, and seeing how individuals
in those circumstances differ in

314
00:19:33,935 --> 00:19:38,375
their behavior from those with, you
know, more typical brain structures.

315
00:19:38,735 --> 00:19:42,545
So to give some examples, we know that
memory depends on the hippocampus to

316
00:19:42,545 --> 00:19:46,115
a large degree because there are cases
where people have had damage to the

317
00:19:46,115 --> 00:19:49,955
hippocampus and they've been unable to
form long-term memories going forwards.

318
00:19:50,564 --> 00:19:53,504
Or we know that there's other
circumstances where, for example,

319
00:19:53,504 --> 00:19:58,094
there's these pair of twins in Canada
that are conjoined at the brain.

320
00:19:58,125 --> 00:20:01,395
So essentially they have what would
look normally like two brains that

321
00:20:01,395 --> 00:20:02,919
have been joined together into one.

322
00:20:03,885 --> 00:20:04,935
Brain, I guess.

323
00:20:05,385 --> 00:20:09,525
And they report in some ways having
slightly different experiences

324
00:20:09,525 --> 00:20:10,725
and still being separated.

325
00:20:11,055 --> 00:20:14,085
But on the other hand, being able
to share a large degree of neural

326
00:20:14,085 --> 00:20:17,835
information and like being able to see
out of each other's eyes, for example.

327
00:20:18,135 --> 00:20:19,845
And that also gives us
a bit of a sense of.

328
00:20:20,405 --> 00:20:23,555
What functions are localized to
which bits of the brain and what

329
00:20:23,555 --> 00:20:24,665
gets shared and what doesn't.

330
00:20:25,085 --> 00:20:26,465
So that's from a human perspective.

331
00:20:27,095 --> 00:20:30,395
Simultaneously, we're getting better
and better and better at being able

332
00:20:30,395 --> 00:20:34,596
to manipulate the brains of animals
that we can use to learn more about.

333
00:20:35,365 --> 00:20:39,175
Neuroscience generally to the point
where these days there are techniques

334
00:20:39,175 --> 00:20:43,405
that can be used to like label the
specific neural circuits involved in

335
00:20:43,405 --> 00:20:48,295
the formation of a particular memory
and even erase particular memories.

336
00:20:48,535 --> 00:20:51,805
Like there's some great studies that have
recently come out where they train these

337
00:20:51,805 --> 00:20:54,505
mice to do two different motor tasks.

338
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,285
One was like balancing on a high
beam and one was sort of like.

339
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,419
Balancing on a rotating rod.

340
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,290
Um, and then they show that they could
map like which circuits were involved

341
00:21:04,290 --> 00:21:08,550
in each of the tasks, and they could
selectively erase only one of the two

342
00:21:08,939 --> 00:21:10,500
while leaving the other one intact.

343
00:21:11,010 --> 00:21:13,860
And from, from doing these sorts
of experiments, we learn, you know,

344
00:21:13,860 --> 00:21:18,899
that memories do depend on specific
sets of connections between specific

345
00:21:18,899 --> 00:21:23,100
populations of neurons in a way that
we can then generalize to how it is

346
00:21:23,100 --> 00:21:24,659
that human brains function as well.

347
00:21:25,050 --> 00:21:27,480
So there is quite a lot of
progress being made in this area.

348
00:21:27,870 --> 00:21:28,170
Yeah.

349
00:21:28,170 --> 00:21:32,220
I found that the evidence and the
research that you've referred to all

350
00:21:32,220 --> 00:21:36,930
the way through is very compelling
because it does support just how far

351
00:21:36,930 --> 00:21:42,420
we have come over the last 100 years
in understanding the functionality of

352
00:21:42,420 --> 00:21:47,160
the brain, but also answering a lot of
those like big philosophical questions,

353
00:21:47,340 --> 00:21:52,470
you know, that you do tackle and there
is so many different philosophies that.

354
00:21:52,595 --> 00:21:57,185
You refer to in there that were
fascinating just in relation to how

355
00:21:57,185 --> 00:22:02,375
our brain functions, how we function,
memory, it was really quite amazing.

356
00:22:02,435 --> 00:22:07,865
Um, when you are thinking about
consciousness and referring to the connect

357
00:22:07,865 --> 00:22:12,995
dome, what is it that's so important
about understanding that when we are

358
00:22:12,995 --> 00:22:17,285
talking about death and the possibility
of cheating death in the future?

359
00:22:17,765 --> 00:22:21,515
Yeah, so in an ideal circumstance.

360
00:22:22,050 --> 00:22:27,120
We would be able to give to people who
were dying some sort of pill or drug or

361
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:31,950
standard treatment that would just cure
their cancer, cure their heart disease,

362
00:22:32,190 --> 00:22:37,050
just give them continuous years of healthy
living without any sort of complications

363
00:22:37,050 --> 00:22:40,980
about weird neuroscience, philosophy
problems, any of those sorts of things.

364
00:22:40,980 --> 00:22:43,950
It would just be a simple standard
treatment available to people.

365
00:22:45,074 --> 00:22:49,334
Unfortunately, I don't think that's
gonna become available anytime soon,

366
00:22:49,965 --> 00:22:55,064
and the only prospect I see is being
able to help those who are dying, but

367
00:22:55,155 --> 00:22:56,834
wish that they could have more time.

368
00:22:57,225 --> 00:23:00,675
Is the possibility that maybe
we could take them and preserve

369
00:23:00,675 --> 00:23:05,294
them in some sort of unconscious
inert state for a period of time.

370
00:23:05,699 --> 00:23:07,784
But if, if that's what one is proposing.

371
00:23:08,610 --> 00:23:12,510
You've gotta make claims about like why
you think that person isn't necessarily

372
00:23:12,510 --> 00:23:16,770
dead or why you think you might be able to
revive them at some point in the future.

373
00:23:16,949 --> 00:23:20,129
And how it is exactly that
you would be able to revive

374
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,409
a preserved body in some way.

375
00:23:22,409 --> 00:23:27,014
I. And getting into those questions
involves really getting to grips with

376
00:23:27,014 --> 00:23:28,965
like, well, what exactly is a person?

377
00:23:29,115 --> 00:23:30,794
What does it mean for
a person to be alive?

378
00:23:30,855 --> 00:23:32,534
What does it mean for a person to die?

379
00:23:32,865 --> 00:23:35,925
What sort of changes can
happen to a person and still

380
00:23:35,925 --> 00:23:37,304
have them be the same person?

381
00:23:37,335 --> 00:23:38,445
All those sorts of things.

382
00:23:38,655 --> 00:23:41,985
And that's, that's why I had to get
into the neuroscience and philosophy

383
00:23:41,985 --> 00:23:46,605
of really drilling into these topics,
because I'm kind of speculating on the

384
00:23:46,605 --> 00:23:48,135
development of technology that I think.

385
00:23:48,295 --> 00:23:52,465
Will maybe one day exist, but I'm
making the case for it, but it

386
00:23:52,465 --> 00:23:56,335
doesn't yet exist, and so one has
to understand the possibilities.

387
00:23:56,715 --> 00:24:01,695
We've been fortunate enough to speak
with the founder of Southern Cryonics

388
00:24:01,695 --> 00:24:06,435
last year on the podcast, and they
use, and they successfully have

389
00:24:06,825 --> 00:24:10,065
cryopreserved, the first person in
the Southern Hemisphere last year.

390
00:24:10,605 --> 00:24:13,305
What is like cryo preservation?

391
00:24:13,575 --> 00:24:19,065
How does it differ from what you refer
to in the book, which is a, a different

392
00:24:19,065 --> 00:24:21,675
process, which is vitro fixation, so.

393
00:24:22,379 --> 00:24:26,430
So the general philosophy is the same
in both circumstances, where it's this

394
00:24:26,430 --> 00:24:31,560
idea that maybe you can take an animal,
a human, a patient, preserve them for

395
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:36,000
a while, and then restore them back to
biological activity and consciousness.

396
00:24:36,780 --> 00:24:40,530
And it has precedent in the, the
natural world and the scientific

397
00:24:40,530 --> 00:24:44,220
world for things that are already, you
know, actively working and ongoing.

398
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,140
So some examples are, there's these
things like the arctic wood frogs, these

399
00:24:49,140 --> 00:24:52,950
frogs that, you know, they, they freeze
every winter and then they thaw out come

400
00:24:52,950 --> 00:24:54,780
spring and they go back to hopping around.

401
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:56,340
Yeah, that's bizarre.

402
00:24:56,630 --> 00:25:00,830
Yeah, it is bizarre, but it's also
something we can do with humans, at

403
00:25:00,830 --> 00:25:02,510
least with small bits of biology.

404
00:25:02,750 --> 00:25:06,140
So, you know, it used to be sci-fi in
the seventies and the eighties, but

405
00:25:06,140 --> 00:25:10,160
today there's a lot of people who have
already been, you know, frozen for

406
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:15,620
part of their life in that we routinely
cryopreserve sperm and eggs and embryos in

407
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,200
IVF and assisted reproduction therapies.

408
00:25:18,980 --> 00:25:22,520
And what happens in those circumstances
is you'll take an embryo, you'll

409
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,140
lower it to very cold temperatures.

410
00:25:24,660 --> 00:25:29,130
And you'll also add in some antifreeze
chemicals, which will prevent ice

411
00:25:29,130 --> 00:25:32,970
formation and ensure that when the
embryo is preserved, it's preserved

412
00:25:32,970 --> 00:25:37,590
in more of sort of a, a glass state
at cold temperatures rather than

413
00:25:37,740 --> 00:25:39,930
in a crystalline sort of ice state.

414
00:25:40,590 --> 00:25:42,150
That's what's used routinely today.

415
00:25:42,150 --> 00:25:47,504
I. The issue though, with trying to scale
that up from embryo size to organ sized or

416
00:25:47,534 --> 00:25:52,635
whole human sized, is that the chemicals
required to prevent ice crystal formation,

417
00:25:52,754 --> 00:25:57,735
these antifreeze chemicals, they can
cause some degree of dehydration of the

418
00:25:57,735 --> 00:25:59,175
tissues that you're trying to preserve.

419
00:25:59,774 --> 00:26:02,504
And indeed, if, if you try and do
cryo preservation, cryo-preservation

420
00:26:02,534 --> 00:26:05,415
of a whole human using just
these antifreeze chemicals.

421
00:26:05,725 --> 00:26:09,475
As per the Southern Cryonics case
that you mentioned, what we typically

422
00:26:09,475 --> 00:26:13,584
see in that circumstance is that
there's a lot of shrinkage of organs

423
00:26:13,645 --> 00:26:15,024
and particularly of the brain.

424
00:26:15,294 --> 00:26:18,655
So if you look at the brains of patients
preserved these way, you'll see something

425
00:26:18,655 --> 00:26:20,995
like a 50% reduction in the size.

426
00:26:20,995 --> 00:26:22,465
So the brain's kind of shriveled.

427
00:26:22,705 --> 00:26:25,855
By about half, 30% to half
in these circumstances.

428
00:26:26,545 --> 00:26:30,625
And that's not super encouraging
for thinking that the brain is

429
00:26:30,625 --> 00:26:34,945
still intact and all the connections
between the neurons in those brains

430
00:26:35,215 --> 00:26:38,845
that store someone's memory and
personality and everything is

431
00:26:38,845 --> 00:26:40,495
still in there in a intact way.

432
00:26:41,220 --> 00:26:45,540
It might be the case that there would
be ways to reverse that and, you know,

433
00:26:45,540 --> 00:26:49,679
expand it again and maybe the connections
don't break when they're dehydrated.

434
00:26:50,070 --> 00:26:53,310
But no one has shown that in a
sort of definitive way as of yet.

435
00:26:53,460 --> 00:26:55,500
So it's a concern that, that I have.

436
00:26:56,159 --> 00:27:00,300
Instead though, there are other ways
of doing preservation that don't induce

437
00:27:00,300 --> 00:27:01,980
this sort of like shrinking related.

438
00:27:01,990 --> 00:27:06,700
Damage, which have better evidence behind
them as keeping someone's connectome,

439
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,710
keeping someone's brain intact.

440
00:27:09,370 --> 00:27:12,460
In particular, there's a method that
involves what's called fixation.

441
00:27:12,850 --> 00:27:18,130
You take an an animal or a human and
you introduce preservative chemicals,

442
00:27:18,220 --> 00:27:19,390
formaldehyde, glutaraldehyde.

443
00:27:20,324 --> 00:27:22,754
Into their sort of circulatory system.

444
00:27:23,385 --> 00:27:25,605
And what those do is
they permeate everywhere.

445
00:27:25,935 --> 00:27:30,375
They get inside all cells, they get
inside all the small organelles within

446
00:27:30,375 --> 00:27:32,804
cells and they fix them in place.

447
00:27:32,834 --> 00:27:37,185
So they stop them from moving, they stop
any sort of further decay processes,

448
00:27:37,635 --> 00:27:40,784
and in doing so, they can give you
very high quality preservation.

449
00:27:41,175 --> 00:27:44,804
So you can then look at the brains after
this preservation procedure and see

450
00:27:44,804 --> 00:27:48,554
that the connectome is still intact,
the neural connections are still intact.

451
00:27:48,929 --> 00:27:50,490
That's the main advantage of it.

452
00:27:50,939 --> 00:27:56,220
The disadvantage is that you could
not in principle just take this

453
00:27:56,220 --> 00:28:00,030
and you know, warm the body back up
again and it just goes straight back

454
00:28:00,030 --> 00:28:01,980
to operating as it did previously.

455
00:28:02,580 --> 00:28:06,000
That's what we can do, for example,
with, you know, cryopreserved embryos

456
00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:09,720
and that's what the people who hope
to cryopreserve whole human bodies.

457
00:28:10,169 --> 00:28:11,220
Wish could happen.

458
00:28:11,550 --> 00:28:13,740
Maybe they'll develop a
protocol for that one day.

459
00:28:14,220 --> 00:28:17,909
But with the fixation preservation,
you need some more advanced revival

460
00:28:17,909 --> 00:28:21,090
technique to be able to restore
the person to consciousness.

461
00:28:21,540 --> 00:28:24,510
Now I think that's very plausible
that we will have that one day,

462
00:28:24,810 --> 00:28:27,750
but that's the, the trade-off
between the two different ideas.

463
00:28:29,129 --> 00:28:35,070
And Ariel, I was just wondering, um, there
is currently in the Western Australian

464
00:28:35,070 --> 00:28:37,710
Gallery an exhibition, which is.

465
00:28:39,330 --> 00:28:43,410
Saying that it has, I'm bringing it up
so we can have a look at it together.

466
00:28:44,010 --> 00:28:45,180
Have you seen this yet?

467
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:45,420
I'm

468
00:28:45,420 --> 00:28:45,840
not sure

469
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:46,410
exactly

470
00:28:46,410 --> 00:28:47,070
what you're referring to.

471
00:28:47,070 --> 00:28:51,600
Okay, so what it is is I only
found out about this on Sunday.

472
00:28:51,990 --> 00:28:53,490
I think it's vilification.

473
00:28:53,490 --> 00:28:57,210
I. I can guess while you're looking,
is it, is it one of those exhibitions

474
00:28:57,210 --> 00:29:01,830
where they have the preserved human
bodies, either plastinated on display?

475
00:29:02,100 --> 00:29:02,460
No.

476
00:29:02,775 --> 00:29:03,390
No, it's not.

477
00:29:03,390 --> 00:29:05,550
A Body Works kind of, yeah, yeah, yeah.

478
00:29:05,550 --> 00:29:07,890
I know where, where you're going
with that one, but no, this one,

479
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,960
I'll read this to you and see whether
you can help me with this one.

480
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,400
So it's currently on, at the Art
Gallery of Western Australia.

481
00:29:17,730 --> 00:29:23,600
It's entitled v. Vilification is an
extraordinary immersive exhibition

482
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,250
combining sound and cutting edge
biological innovation to bring to life

483
00:29:28,250 --> 00:29:31,010
the musical genius of a deceased composer.

484
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:39,320
Four years in the making, vilification
delivers a historic first, the in vitro.

485
00:29:39,645 --> 00:29:44,745
External, they say Brain of
the late composer Alvin Lucia.

486
00:29:45,195 --> 00:29:46,875
Dunno whether I'm
pronouncing that correctly.

487
00:29:47,535 --> 00:29:55,575
From 1931 to 2021, they were
alive creating a new work in real

488
00:29:55,575 --> 00:29:59,835
time as a live performance over
the duration of the exhibition.

489
00:30:00,435 --> 00:30:05,385
So it's actually been in developed with
an artist with by the name of Guy Ben

490
00:30:05,385 --> 00:30:13,305
Ari, Nathan Thompson, and Matthew Gral
with a neuroscientist Stuart Hodges, based

491
00:30:13,305 --> 00:30:18,315
in the University of Western Australia,
who individually spent 25 years pushing

492
00:30:18,315 --> 00:30:20,145
the boundaries in biological arts.

493
00:30:20,175 --> 00:30:20,235
Wow.

494
00:30:20,745 --> 00:30:24,764
I am not sure exactly what they
have done, but it does remind me

495
00:30:24,764 --> 00:30:28,575
of something I explore in the book,
which is this question of like, could

496
00:30:28,575 --> 00:30:33,225
you take brains and recreate them
in some sort of digital format in

497
00:30:33,225 --> 00:30:35,294
a way that captures the function?

498
00:30:35,294 --> 00:30:39,875
I. Behavior memories, everything that
was in the original biological brain.

499
00:30:40,175 --> 00:30:43,775
As an example of the sort of current
cutting edge progress that's been made

500
00:30:43,775 --> 00:30:49,475
in that late last year was the first
publication of the like full mapping

501
00:30:49,625 --> 00:30:54,605
of a flies connectome, A fruit flies
connectome, so it's 160,000 neurons

502
00:30:54,605 --> 00:30:58,475
and billions of connections between
those neurons were fully mapped out.

503
00:30:59,055 --> 00:31:02,565
And from that mapping, the
neuroscientists made a sort of like

504
00:31:02,625 --> 00:31:05,625
digital recreation of that fly brainin.

505
00:31:06,075 --> 00:31:09,525
Now, they didn't make it in perfect
quality as they themselves acknowledge,

506
00:31:09,885 --> 00:31:14,655
but even their sort of digital version of
this fly, Brainin was able to show some

507
00:31:14,655 --> 00:31:16,575
of the behaviors of the original fly.

508
00:31:16,935 --> 00:31:20,025
So, for example, they stimulated
some of its neurons that

509
00:31:20,025 --> 00:31:21,525
correspond to tasting sugar.

510
00:31:22,095 --> 00:31:26,625
And they saw outputs from the, the
motor neurons that corresponded to

511
00:31:26,625 --> 00:31:31,155
it, trying to extend its SCUs or
essentially like stick out its tongue.

512
00:31:31,155 --> 00:31:31,215
Wow.

513
00:31:31,995 --> 00:31:36,764
Now I use this example both as one
to demonstrate this is like cool.

514
00:31:36,764 --> 00:31:40,185
And these are the steps that are
made on the way to maybe being

515
00:31:40,185 --> 00:31:44,205
able to show one way of reviving,
preserved humans in the future.

516
00:31:44,790 --> 00:31:47,730
But also to make very clear that
we're not up to humans just yet.

517
00:31:47,775 --> 00:31:51,389
We're, we're just trying to get
things like flies and aspirationally

518
00:31:51,389 --> 00:31:52,980
mice in the next few years to work.

519
00:31:53,370 --> 00:31:56,639
So this example in Western Australia,
I, I'm not exactly sure what they're

520
00:31:56,639 --> 00:31:59,670
doing, but it's definitely not
the case that they've managed to

521
00:31:59,910 --> 00:32:01,889
upload this composer as of yet.

522
00:32:02,460 --> 00:32:03,240
Yeah, yeah.

523
00:32:03,330 --> 00:32:06,780
I think they may have taken a bit of
poetic license with the exhibition

524
00:32:06,780 --> 00:32:09,540
description, but it's fascinating
to know that that's where we are

525
00:32:09,540 --> 00:32:11,520
currently at, at this point in time.

526
00:32:12,030 --> 00:32:12,629
So.

527
00:32:13,050 --> 00:32:16,230
I'd like to talk about the future
and the process that you sort

528
00:32:16,230 --> 00:32:20,850
of outline using what we see and
the example you've just given us.

529
00:32:20,850 --> 00:32:24,960
Then with the fly, what do you see
developing over the next, you know,

530
00:32:24,990 --> 00:32:29,640
100 years, 200 years, and, and
what does that look like for us?

531
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:36,360
Yeah, so in advocating for preservation as
a means of providing those who are dying,

532
00:32:36,450 --> 00:32:40,560
but who would like to have more time, a
potentially viable method for doing so.

533
00:32:40,980 --> 00:32:42,570
It's sort of a two part technology.

534
00:32:42,975 --> 00:32:46,754
There's the initial preservation
and storage side, and there's the

535
00:32:46,754 --> 00:32:51,435
eventual revival side, and we can
examine each part individually.

536
00:32:52,350 --> 00:32:56,550
I actually think we already have the
technology available today in order

537
00:32:56,550 --> 00:33:00,959
to preserve people in high quality,
and the issue is mostly around

538
00:33:01,260 --> 00:33:03,179
public knowledge that it exists.

539
00:33:03,300 --> 00:33:06,750
Public acceptance, the rollout
and integration of it as part

540
00:33:06,750 --> 00:33:08,280
of routine medical technology.

541
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,510
It's of no use to anyone if you know
there's no provider that's available

542
00:33:12,510 --> 00:33:14,699
to integrate it into hospices.

543
00:33:15,060 --> 00:33:19,530
Or hospitals or a place where terminally
ill patients might be able to access it.

544
00:33:20,010 --> 00:33:23,010
And even if it was there, if nobody
is aware of it or wants to make

545
00:33:23,010 --> 00:33:25,050
use of it, then there's no point.

546
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,960
But I, I do think that the
technology to preserve people

547
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,000
well today does already exist.

548
00:33:30,060 --> 00:33:33,570
And there's a couple of groups on the
west coast of the US that are trying to

549
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,790
provide it commercially at the moment,
but that's only the preservation side.

550
00:33:39,225 --> 00:33:41,025
Uh, and then keeping people in storage.

551
00:33:41,295 --> 00:33:44,985
The question is like, at what point
would you maybe be able to restore

552
00:33:44,985 --> 00:33:47,745
those individuals back to consciousness?

553
00:33:48,135 --> 00:33:51,675
And there's sort of two ways people
imagine maybe being able to do so.

554
00:33:52,230 --> 00:33:58,020
One is through sort of directly reversing
the preservation procedure itself, so

555
00:33:58,350 --> 00:34:03,480
undoing the fixation that happened with
those preservative chemicals, and then I

556
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,280
guess warming the person back up again.

557
00:34:05,940 --> 00:34:09,420
That would require sort of
very advanced nanomedicine far

558
00:34:09,420 --> 00:34:11,280
beyond what we currently have.

559
00:34:11,635 --> 00:34:16,675
And sort of more in the, the scope
of what it is that, you know, biology

560
00:34:16,675 --> 00:34:20,034
can do, like the machinery within
our cells, the machinery of other

561
00:34:20,034 --> 00:34:25,045
life forms that's currently still far
beyond human medical capabilities.

562
00:34:25,435 --> 00:34:26,574
So that, that's one side.

563
00:34:27,025 --> 00:34:30,355
The other possibility is more similar
to what I was mentioning with creating

564
00:34:30,355 --> 00:34:32,250
digital brains or uploads just then.

565
00:34:32,805 --> 00:34:36,735
And actually the avenue that I think is
likely to arrive sooner, which is the

566
00:34:36,735 --> 00:34:41,595
idea that it might be possible to take a
preserved individual's brain and body to

567
00:34:41,655 --> 00:34:47,355
scan it at very, very high resolution,
and then to create them a new sort of

568
00:34:47,865 --> 00:34:52,575
artificial, electronic, digital brain
and possibly body to go along with that.

569
00:34:53,065 --> 00:34:55,915
So looking at what's been happening,
for example, in the fly example I

570
00:34:55,915 --> 00:34:59,965
mentioned, and sort of making that
better, making that work at scale,

571
00:35:00,085 --> 00:35:03,475
increasing the computing power and
the knowledge of neuroscience to the

572
00:35:03,475 --> 00:35:08,485
point where we can do that to a human
with estimates of that being possible.

573
00:35:08,545 --> 00:35:12,865
I don't know, sometime between
the 2060s or early 21 hundreds,

574
00:35:12,985 --> 00:35:16,765
depending on how optimistic the
neuroscientist in question you ask is.

575
00:35:17,015 --> 00:35:21,305
Because I suppose when, when the reference
that you made previously about the

576
00:35:21,305 --> 00:35:24,995
genome, you know, when you think how
far we've come in, just the fact that

577
00:35:25,325 --> 00:35:29,855
everyday knowledge, now we know that
genome and DNA, we can do DNA testing

578
00:35:29,855 --> 00:35:34,415
ourselves in a home kit, you know, so
it's come a long, long way from where

579
00:35:34,685 --> 00:35:37,205
we were with understanding the genome.

580
00:35:37,565 --> 00:35:38,105
So.

581
00:35:38,580 --> 00:35:42,240
Are you thinking that we are getting,
we will get to a stage where we

582
00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:47,850
will understand our connectome and
to the point that it can be then

583
00:35:47,850 --> 00:35:50,490
replicated in an artificial manner.

584
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:56,100
So it's not actually so much so
the original tissue coming back and

585
00:35:56,100 --> 00:36:01,620
being alive, but more maybe I, I, I
feel like I wanna make a reference

586
00:36:01,620 --> 00:36:06,390
to sci-fi here, like, you know,
a cyborg or something like that.

587
00:36:06,855 --> 00:36:10,785
Yeah, I, I would say it's taking
the logical extension of current

588
00:36:10,785 --> 00:36:14,384
neural prosthesis technology
to its ultimate conclusion.

589
00:36:14,774 --> 00:36:17,480
So at the moment, people have
probably heard about people who

590
00:36:17,484 --> 00:36:21,765
have had spinal cord injuries or
lost limbs, or lost the ability to

591
00:36:21,765 --> 00:36:23,040
speak after a stroke, for example.

592
00:36:23,879 --> 00:36:27,225
I. But they've had those functions
partially restored through some sort

593
00:36:27,225 --> 00:36:31,395
of brain implant that has taken over
the function of, of what was lost,

594
00:36:31,845 --> 00:36:36,165
where they're given a bionic limb or
they're given some interface that,

595
00:36:36,225 --> 00:36:39,525
you know, enables them to speak
through a sort of artificial means.

596
00:36:39,525 --> 00:36:43,635
Again, the idea of what I see is,
well, we get better and better at,

597
00:36:43,635 --> 00:36:46,635
better at understanding how to make
those things and how to make them

598
00:36:46,635 --> 00:36:48,735
for more and more brain functions.

599
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,960
And we also get better and better
at understanding how the brain works

600
00:36:51,990 --> 00:36:57,360
normally and naturally to the point
where we can essentially recreate a

601
00:36:57,540 --> 00:37:02,400
human brain and we can also scan the
information present in a human biological

602
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,870
brain in a way where we can recreate
it in a new sort of artificial format.

603
00:37:07,380 --> 00:37:11,070
And if we do that just right
in high enough fidelity, then

604
00:37:11,070 --> 00:37:14,370
hopefully we'd be able to restore
a person to consciousness that way.

605
00:37:15,045 --> 00:37:17,955
I mean, there's a lot of philosophy,
neuroscience, everything to

606
00:37:17,955 --> 00:37:20,895
really drill into whether that's
possible and how one would do it.

607
00:37:21,165 --> 00:37:23,295
But that is the the general
argument that I'm making.

608
00:37:23,444 --> 00:37:23,835
Yes.

609
00:37:24,225 --> 00:37:29,565
And what I thought was very interesting
is that you also went into just how

610
00:37:29,565 --> 00:37:33,855
much it would cost, and you, I think
you were touching on it briefly

611
00:37:33,884 --> 00:37:35,384
before, is about the fact that.

612
00:37:36,290 --> 00:37:40,009
You know, we have the technology available
now, but we don't have the awareness.

613
00:37:40,009 --> 00:37:42,980
We don't have the funding and
the resources allocated to it.

614
00:37:43,310 --> 00:37:47,029
So much so that you actually put a
call out to different people working

615
00:37:47,029 --> 00:37:50,960
within different industries to say,
if you wanna see this happen, you

616
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:52,879
need to be having conversations.

617
00:37:52,879 --> 00:37:52,940
I.

618
00:37:53,174 --> 00:37:54,585
Yeah, no, exactly.

619
00:37:54,585 --> 00:37:56,475
I mean, so there's two things.

620
00:37:56,475 --> 00:37:59,865
Again, I would say the cost of
doing preservation in storage is

621
00:37:59,895 --> 00:38:03,495
a lot cheaper probably than the,
the cost of doing revival, which

622
00:38:03,495 --> 00:38:04,935
at the moment is roughly infinite.

623
00:38:04,964 --> 00:38:06,285
'cause we, we can't do it at all.

624
00:38:06,825 --> 00:38:10,115
And also it's the case that I. Even
if we don't know which specific

625
00:38:10,115 --> 00:38:13,535
revival method we'll be able to use
in the future, I think there's a

626
00:38:13,535 --> 00:38:17,615
strong case that preservation works
well enough that it'll be compatible

627
00:38:17,615 --> 00:38:20,735
with at least one of the forms of
revival that will become available.

628
00:38:20,915 --> 00:38:24,995
Whether that's uploading or whether
that's direct restoration of reversing

629
00:38:24,995 --> 00:38:26,735
the fixation, whatever it may be.

630
00:38:27,375 --> 00:38:31,035
So in the book I, I really try and say,
well, if you think these ideas are at

631
00:38:31,035 --> 00:38:35,835
all plausible, then how much is it worth
to spend on this, on preserving people?

632
00:38:36,254 --> 00:38:39,674
Because on the one hand, if it costs a
billion dollars per procedure, then you

633
00:38:39,674 --> 00:38:41,595
know it's of use to basically no one.

634
00:38:41,654 --> 00:38:46,410
Even if you can guarantee it works,
and if it's incredibly cheap, well then

635
00:38:46,575 --> 00:38:50,444
even if you are not that confident that
it will work, it might still be worth

636
00:38:50,444 --> 00:38:54,705
exploring the same way as insurance or
any other sort of speculative prospect.

637
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,650
And so what I get into in the book is
like, how do we actually decide how much

638
00:38:58,650 --> 00:39:00,960
to pay for medical treatments generally?

639
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,310
So in a, in a more concrete and more
everyday sense, people have probably

640
00:39:05,310 --> 00:39:08,430
heard about the fact that there's
constantly new cancer therapies that

641
00:39:08,430 --> 00:39:12,270
are being developed, but that often
come with very expensive price tags.

642
00:39:12,270 --> 00:39:17,460
So $50,000, $60,000 for these new
treatments, and when deciding whether

643
00:39:17,460 --> 00:39:21,360
that's worthwhile or whether it's
not, what we have to look at is.

644
00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:25,830
How much more time, in what level of
health do these treatments buy for

645
00:39:25,830 --> 00:39:29,040
someone versus how much does it cost?

646
00:39:29,430 --> 00:39:33,510
And in Australia with our public health
system, we use a threshold of something

647
00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:39,150
like $50,000 per year of healthy
life where to make that concrete.

648
00:39:39,150 --> 00:39:44,280
That's saying that, you know, if your
cancer drug costs $50,000 but it cures

649
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,080
someone's cancer and gives them 10 years.

650
00:39:46,410 --> 00:39:47,070
Then that's great.

651
00:39:47,070 --> 00:39:48,390
Yeah, we'll absolutely fund it.

652
00:39:48,870 --> 00:39:53,220
But if it costs $200,000 and it only
statistically improves, you know,

653
00:39:53,250 --> 00:39:57,270
survival rates by about a month or
so, then we decline to fund that.

654
00:39:57,300 --> 00:40:00,540
We don't think that's a, a good
use of resources in comparison

655
00:40:00,540 --> 00:40:01,920
to what else it could be.

656
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,650
I. To bring that back to preservation.

657
00:40:04,740 --> 00:40:09,240
The conclusion I have is that if done at
scale, preservation and storage should

658
00:40:09,390 --> 00:40:15,780
probably cost something like 10 to $20,000
per procedure, which means that, you

659
00:40:15,780 --> 00:40:20,130
know, as, as long as you think it has some
chance of giving people only a few more

660
00:40:20,130 --> 00:40:24,120
years of healthy life, then it's probably
a, a worthwhile thing to be considering.

661
00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:29,730
And tell me, you know, we've
discussed the, the possibility of

662
00:40:29,730 --> 00:40:33,750
this happening, it, we've done the
mapping of the connectome, we've done

663
00:40:33,750 --> 00:40:38,370
the process of the preservation, but
it's really that other side, isn't it?

664
00:40:38,370 --> 00:40:43,620
And I love how you speak about really
the future and how we are dependent

665
00:40:43,620 --> 00:40:46,649
on the generations that come after us.

666
00:40:46,965 --> 00:40:50,565
To actually like us enough to
wanna be able to revive us.

667
00:40:51,105 --> 00:40:53,745
Yeah, I mean this is a
common question people ask.

668
00:40:53,745 --> 00:40:56,535
They say like, even if you can
guarantee me that the technology

669
00:40:56,595 --> 00:41:01,065
works, why would people in the future
want to revive their ancestors?

670
00:41:01,065 --> 00:41:04,005
Like, why would they even care for me?

671
00:41:04,005 --> 00:41:07,815
The reason why I think they might
care is the same sort of reasons

672
00:41:07,815 --> 00:41:12,195
why I am grateful to my ancestors
and the people who came before us.

673
00:41:12,570 --> 00:41:16,080
For example, I mentioned earlier
that one in two children used

674
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,820
to die before the age of 15, but
because nowadays we have things like

675
00:41:20,820 --> 00:41:26,520
antibiotics and clean water and sewage
systems, that doesn't happen anymore.

676
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:28,770
And I get to live as a result of this.

677
00:41:28,980 --> 00:41:33,510
And I'm very grateful to everyone who
worked in previous times to make the world

678
00:41:33,510 --> 00:41:37,920
a little bit easier for themselves and
their children and their grandchildren.

679
00:41:38,460 --> 00:41:43,020
My hope is that should we meet the
challenges of our time, things like

680
00:41:43,140 --> 00:41:47,700
solving climate change issues, things
like preventing nuclear war, things

681
00:41:47,700 --> 00:41:52,680
like ensuring that everyone has access
to economic security, that we continue

682
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,339
to build a better and better and better
world, to the point where hopefully

683
00:41:56,339 --> 00:41:59,790
people in the future will be living
in such nice conditions that they're

684
00:41:59,790 --> 00:42:03,750
like, yeah, why not bring back our
ancestors who helped give us this world?

685
00:42:04,529 --> 00:42:06,779
And on the other hand, if we fail.

686
00:42:07,140 --> 00:42:10,980
If the world is destroyed or if
it's merely just a, an impoverished

687
00:42:10,980 --> 00:42:14,280
sort of condition, then nobody's
gonna be bothering to bring

688
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,380
back their preserved ancestors.

689
00:42:16,650 --> 00:42:20,910
So it's sort of both a, a hope
and also an impetus to like really

690
00:42:20,910 --> 00:42:26,010
take seriously that there will be a
2100, there will be a 2200, like the

691
00:42:26,010 --> 00:42:29,640
future is going to happen the same
way that the past was really real.

692
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:34,080
And we should want that to go well,
both for our descendants and maybe

693
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:35,640
a little bit also for ourselves.

694
00:42:36,705 --> 00:42:40,725
And is that one of the biggest hurdles
with this is that we're trusting

695
00:42:40,725 --> 00:42:42,584
humanity to do the right thing?

696
00:42:43,185 --> 00:42:46,845
Yeah, I, I mean, it's a, an uncertainty
with all endeavors and particularly

697
00:42:46,845 --> 00:42:48,555
this just makes it very concrete.

698
00:42:48,615 --> 00:42:52,095
If anyone wants to build anything,
whether it's improving the governance

699
00:42:52,095 --> 00:42:55,544
of their country, whether it's building
a business that lasts into the future,

700
00:42:55,754 --> 00:42:58,395
whether it's ensuring that their
children and their grandchildren have

701
00:42:58,395 --> 00:43:02,805
good educations and good lives, there's
always a degree of like uncertainty.

702
00:43:03,190 --> 00:43:06,940
About how the world is gonna go,
how future humans are gonna act

703
00:43:06,940 --> 00:43:08,530
and how we're gonna act today.

704
00:43:09,010 --> 00:43:12,670
And normally we, we just, you know,
think that that's a problem, but

705
00:43:12,670 --> 00:43:15,100
we don't dwell on it too much.

706
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,150
But if you're really concretely thinking
about, Hey, is there a chance that

707
00:43:19,270 --> 00:43:23,560
I will exist in 2100, or that I need
something from someone at that future

708
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:28,390
time points, I guess it makes very
explicit this uncertainty that is there.

709
00:43:28,995 --> 00:43:32,565
But I, I think uncertainty's not the
same as, you know, it will definitely

710
00:43:32,654 --> 00:43:38,565
fail in the same way that I think people
who lived in 1500, 1600 or so would be

711
00:43:38,715 --> 00:43:42,944
very pleasantly surprised by actually
how well the future went compared to

712
00:43:42,944 --> 00:43:44,355
the living standards that they had.

713
00:43:44,654 --> 00:43:49,215
And I think that you do a good job of also
drawing on past quotations from people

714
00:43:49,215 --> 00:43:55,035
who were quite visionary in our past that
have, you know, thought about an idea or

715
00:43:55,035 --> 00:43:58,125
what our, our world could possibly be and.

716
00:43:58,425 --> 00:44:00,075
Some of those things have come true.

717
00:44:00,075 --> 00:44:04,875
So, you know, it does pose the
question that people have asked

718
00:44:04,875 --> 00:44:08,775
these things in the past and they
have become a reality for us today.

719
00:44:09,165 --> 00:44:12,735
And that's what I, I really like
about the book all the way through,

720
00:44:12,735 --> 00:44:14,145
is that you're being challenged.

721
00:44:14,385 --> 00:44:18,015
Just when you think that, oh, maybe
this isn't a possibility, then you.

722
00:44:18,595 --> 00:44:23,065
Challenge me or, or provide me with
another reason about why someone

723
00:44:23,065 --> 00:44:26,365
in the past may have had the same
concerns about, you know, things that

724
00:44:26,365 --> 00:44:30,145
we've already been able to accomplish
in medical, you know, achievements.

725
00:44:30,205 --> 00:44:35,245
Something that I, I went to recently
was a, an exhibition in an art

726
00:44:35,245 --> 00:44:38,095
gallery in Gippsland, and it was.

727
00:44:38,180 --> 00:44:43,520
A beautiful collection of
drawings based on centenarians.

728
00:44:43,790 --> 00:44:45,200
I'm always horrible at that word.

729
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:46,580
I can never pronounce it properly.

730
00:44:46,970 --> 00:44:52,970
For those of you people have reached
the ripe old age of 100, and a lot

731
00:44:52,970 --> 00:44:58,190
of them didn't know how they made
it that age, and a lot of them.

732
00:44:58,504 --> 00:45:03,154
You know, had a sense of grief about
them because they were the only ones left

733
00:45:03,154 --> 00:45:05,015
of their loved ones and their family.

734
00:45:05,705 --> 00:45:11,225
So do you think the success for
something like this is making sure

735
00:45:11,225 --> 00:45:16,115
that it's not just being offered to
the few, but being offered to the many?

736
00:45:17,190 --> 00:45:18,029
Yeah, absolutely.

737
00:45:18,029 --> 00:45:22,830
I, I think this is in the same way as all
medical technology, something where you

738
00:45:22,830 --> 00:45:26,520
want as many people as possible to have
access to it, and something that should

739
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,040
be used to empower people generally.

740
00:45:29,820 --> 00:45:33,930
Now, that's not to say that if for
whatever reason, only a few people

741
00:45:33,930 --> 00:45:38,340
take it up that it's not worthwhile
in that it sort of reminds me of

742
00:45:38,340 --> 00:45:42,840
how my grandparents were Holocaust
survivors, for example, and they told

743
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:47,460
me stories of of friends of theirs
who had had their entire families die.

744
00:45:47,835 --> 00:45:53,145
And who had come to Australia as refugees
with no connections, nothing essentially.

745
00:45:54,015 --> 00:45:58,605
Now, that was horrible for them, but
at the same time, they still went on

746
00:45:58,605 --> 00:46:03,495
to have meaningful lives, to build new
connections, to build a essentially a, a

747
00:46:03,500 --> 00:46:08,819
new and and satisfying life for themselves
despite having lost everything previously.

748
00:46:09,645 --> 00:46:10,634
And in, in the same way.

749
00:46:10,634 --> 00:46:11,685
I think that even if.

750
00:46:12,020 --> 00:46:16,790
Isolated individuals wanted to make use of
something like preservation without their

751
00:46:16,879 --> 00:46:21,950
friends or families or others, then that
that might still be worthwhile for them.

752
00:46:22,590 --> 00:46:26,160
But, but it's obviously the case that
the more people have access to this,

753
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:30,509
the more people whose communities are
kept intact to get to live again with

754
00:46:30,509 --> 00:46:33,690
their friends and family and loved
ones, the more this has succeeded.

755
00:46:34,020 --> 00:46:36,780
I definitely think it should
be accessible to everyone.

756
00:46:37,590 --> 00:46:40,995
And I suppose, here's the big question,
Ariel, would you sign up for it?

757
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,160
I absolutely would.

758
00:46:44,340 --> 00:46:49,080
Where I, for example, given a, a
terminal cancer diagnosis or something.

759
00:46:49,410 --> 00:46:52,830
I'm only 32 at the moment, so my
hope is I won't have to make that

760
00:46:52,830 --> 00:46:55,200
choice explicitly anytime soon.

761
00:46:55,890 --> 00:47:00,150
But it is the case that when, for
example, I've looked at surveys of the

762
00:47:00,150 --> 00:47:05,550
terminally ill and their will to live,
where people have gone into hospices and

763
00:47:05,550 --> 00:47:09,575
they've asked people at death store, do
you still have a strong will to live?

764
00:47:10,665 --> 00:47:15,105
Most people in that circumstance,
about 70% when asked, continue to

765
00:47:15,105 --> 00:47:19,065
say, I have a very strong will to
live even right up until the end.

766
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,040
And I, I think I would likely be the same.

767
00:47:23,220 --> 00:47:26,700
And if someone could credibly
offer me some way of being able to

768
00:47:26,790 --> 00:47:29,790
live longer at some point in the
future, then that is something I

769
00:47:29,790 --> 00:47:31,560
would push very hard to take up.

770
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,680
Because ultimately I think it is
the case that these things should

771
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,690
be under individual's controls.

772
00:47:37,140 --> 00:47:41,460
People should be able to, if they
want to, I guess, end their lives at

773
00:47:41,460 --> 00:47:45,150
the, the point where they're suffering
huge amounts of pain or where they

774
00:47:45,210 --> 00:47:48,600
no longer feel their life is at the
quality that they want it to be.

775
00:47:49,140 --> 00:47:54,120
On the other hand, if we have people
who are terminally ill but who think

776
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,509
that this might give them some chance
at more time, it's absolutely something

777
00:47:57,509 --> 00:47:58,799
they should have access to as well.

778
00:47:59,549 --> 00:47:59,970
Wow.

779
00:47:59,970 --> 00:48:01,230
I think that's amazing.

780
00:48:01,230 --> 00:48:08,174
So how do you think that the role of grief
and mourning comes into this process?

781
00:48:08,490 --> 00:48:14,009
If someone does choose this as an option,
how do you think that that might play out?

782
00:48:14,069 --> 00:48:16,560
You know, play out for those
loved ones left behind.

783
00:48:17,265 --> 00:48:21,915
Yeah, I have not thought a huge
amount about this, to be fair.

784
00:48:22,125 --> 00:48:26,775
And I'm also not a sociologist or a
psychologist in grief, so of course

785
00:48:26,775 --> 00:48:30,110
I, I put some, you know, caveats
on, on what I'm about to say.

786
00:48:30,110 --> 00:48:30,272
Yeah, of course.

787
00:48:30,795 --> 00:48:34,815
My guess, and this is just a guess,
is that it seems somewhat similar

788
00:48:34,815 --> 00:48:37,875
to sort of what was actually
historically more than norm.

789
00:48:38,455 --> 00:48:42,985
Where most people used to believe in an
afterlife, a religious sort of afterlife

790
00:48:42,985 --> 00:48:47,215
of people where they would, you know,
their loved ones would die, but they

791
00:48:47,215 --> 00:48:50,965
might be reunited again with them at
some point in the future in heaven also.

792
00:48:51,625 --> 00:48:55,825
And it obviously, this is a, a variant
on that insofar as, uh, there's no

793
00:48:55,825 --> 00:48:59,365
guarantee that this technology will
work either from a technical sense

794
00:48:59,370 --> 00:49:03,505
or that future generations will have
the capacity to bring people back.

795
00:49:04,255 --> 00:49:06,025
So I think it's sort of two parts to it.

796
00:49:06,375 --> 00:49:10,904
There's the fear that their loved ones
might be gone forever, but there's also

797
00:49:10,904 --> 00:49:14,145
just the loss that even if they are
sure, they'll get to see their loved

798
00:49:14,145 --> 00:49:15,645
ones again at some point in the future.

799
00:49:16,125 --> 00:49:17,685
They've still lost them for now.

800
00:49:17,685 --> 00:49:20,475
They're still grieving the loss
of their friendship, the loss of

801
00:49:20,475 --> 00:49:24,404
their family member all the time
that they won't spend with them.

802
00:49:24,884 --> 00:49:28,154
And I imagine that's gotta be
pretty similar to the standard

803
00:49:28,154 --> 00:49:30,105
sort of grieving process.

804
00:49:30,645 --> 00:49:32,234
At least that's how I I think about it.

805
00:49:32,325 --> 00:49:34,515
Even if someone could
guarantee me that I'd see my.

806
00:49:35,015 --> 00:49:38,165
Friend again in a hundred
years, I'd be pretty devastated

807
00:49:38,165 --> 00:49:39,365
that I wasn't seeing them.

808
00:49:39,365 --> 00:49:39,725
Now

809
00:49:40,385 --> 00:49:44,345
it's interesting because it, then it
comes back to that age old challenge

810
00:49:44,345 --> 00:49:50,855
between faith or religion and science
and that the possibility of an afterlife.

811
00:49:51,215 --> 00:49:55,715
So this would be a scientific,
you know, version of, of

812
00:49:55,715 --> 00:49:57,155
really an afterlife, wasn't it?

813
00:49:57,975 --> 00:50:00,975
Well, I mean, I guess in a
technical sense, I would argue

814
00:50:00,975 --> 00:50:02,625
that the person never really died.

815
00:50:02,655 --> 00:50:04,815
So it's, it's not quite
awful that that's true.

816
00:50:05,175 --> 00:50:05,445
Yeah.

817
00:50:05,445 --> 00:50:05,895
But, but it is.

818
00:50:05,895 --> 00:50:06,135
Yeah.

819
00:50:06,135 --> 00:50:07,635
I, there is a strong analogy.

820
00:50:07,635 --> 00:50:10,035
I think that's it's fair to make.

821
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,020
This has been absolutely fascinating.

822
00:50:13,020 --> 00:50:15,870
I've loved the book,
I've loved reading it.

823
00:50:15,930 --> 00:50:21,120
It, it's taken me through so many
different avenues and just really made

824
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:25,680
me appreciate just how difficult it
is and how complex we are as humans

825
00:50:25,950 --> 00:50:31,200
and, and how far we've come in, in
modern technology and, and science.

826
00:50:31,319 --> 00:50:36,060
For anyone fascinated about the next
steps, you know, how can they advocate?

827
00:50:36,390 --> 00:50:37,740
What do you.

828
00:50:38,170 --> 00:50:41,770
Suggest people do to support
this kind of, you know, future

829
00:50:41,770 --> 00:50:43,300
that you are, you are suggesting

830
00:50:43,810 --> 00:50:45,160
they are interested?

831
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:46,120
In general.

832
00:50:46,270 --> 00:50:49,900
I have an ongoing newsletter where
they can find out more about sort

833
00:50:49,900 --> 00:50:51,250
of developments that are happening.

834
00:50:51,490 --> 00:50:53,950
It's called Preserving Hope on Substack.

835
00:50:54,220 --> 00:50:55,840
It's also available through my website.

836
00:50:56,515 --> 00:51:00,595
If they want more specific information
about organizations helping push for

837
00:51:00,595 --> 00:51:04,435
this sort of stuff, they can look up, for
example, the Brain Preservation Foundation

838
00:51:04,765 --> 00:51:08,485
and if they're interested in the providers
that actually currently exist in this

839
00:51:08,485 --> 00:51:13,585
space, the two to check out would be
Oregon Brain Preservation and Nectar,

840
00:51:13,915 --> 00:51:17,455
which are in the west coast of the us
And hopefully, you know, we'll be able to

841
00:51:17,455 --> 00:51:21,085
expand and grow to the point where they
can start to offer services in Australia

842
00:51:21,475 --> 00:51:22,975
at some point in the the near future.

843
00:51:23,145 --> 00:51:26,325
People should also feel free to
email me if they're interested and

844
00:51:26,355 --> 00:51:27,915
those details are also on my website.

845
00:51:28,935 --> 00:51:29,805
That's fantastic.

846
00:51:29,805 --> 00:51:32,775
Ariel, I can't thank you enough for
being a guest on the show today.

847
00:51:32,835 --> 00:51:34,215
I really enjoyed our time here.

848
00:51:34,665 --> 00:51:38,085
I'm glad you had me and I'm glad you're
having these conversations with people.

849
00:51:38,115 --> 00:51:38,535
It's great.

850
00:51:38,535 --> 00:51:38,595
I.

851
00:51:42,210 --> 00:51:45,630
We hope you enjoyed today's
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852
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:47,700
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853
00:51:48,450 --> 00:51:52,710
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