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Tonina: When we're dealing with
people's different needs and individual

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preferences, we need systems that are
a lot more flexible and deliberately

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set up to be able to be responsive
because it's not a one size fits all.

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And you have to actually reflect on how
are we systematically being inclusive.

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00:00:20,619 --> 00:00:22,590< ... Read More

1
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Tonina: When we're dealing with
people's different needs and individual

2
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preferences, we need systems that are
a lot more flexible and deliberately

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set up to be able to be responsive
because it's not a one size fits all.

4
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And you have to actually reflect on how
are we systematically being inclusive.

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It doesn't happen by default.

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It has to be.

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It happened by design.

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That's why we put so much effort
into developing resources like

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training and inclusive service
standards to help organizations really

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embed those systematic approaches.

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I've had that personal experience myself
when I had my mother in aged care and I

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asked, can we get an interpreter for her?

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And they looked at me blankly saying,
where do you get one of those?

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How do we initiate any of that
happening within the organisations?

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We've never had an interpreter
in this organisation.

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We're like, Oh my God.

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Catherine: Welcome to Don't Be
Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging

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open conversations about dying
and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death to life.

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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations

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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.

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We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging, and extend

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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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So today we have Tonina Gucciardo
Maski, who is the Community Engagement

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Manager at Palliative Care Victoria.

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As a Community Engagement Manager
at Palliative Care Victoria,

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Tonina is responsible for leading
Palliative Care Victoria's diversity,

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inclusive and responsive initiatives.

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Her work involves collaborating with
community leaders and organizations

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representing marginalized and
vulnerable populations to promote

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palliative care services and
improve access to end of life care.

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Tonina joined the team in 2023 and
she brings with her over 30 years of

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experience working with multicultural,
multi faith communities as a

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researcher, trainer and advocate.

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Thanks for being with us, Tonina.

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Thank you, Catherine.

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And then we have Nicholas Rittinghausen.

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Nicky is the Manager of the Centre
for Cultural Diversity and Ageing.

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He has significant experience in project
management, multicultural affairs,

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aged care, policy, advocacy, social
cohesion and community engagement.

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He represents partners in Cultural
Appropriate Care Alliance at the

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Department of Health and Aged Care's
Diversity Consultative Committee.

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Thanks for being with us Nicky.

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Nikolaus: Thank you very much
Catherine for the invitation.

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Catherine: Now Tonina
I might start with you.

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Do you mind telling us a little
bit about what your role entails?

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Tonina: Sure.

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Thanks, Catherine.

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Again, thank you for, for inviting us.

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It's really exciting to be here with you.

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Uh, well, at Palliative Care Victoria,
basically we, as you can imagine, as

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the peak body, we are about advocacy for
palliative care services across the state.

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But a big part of my role is to engage
with communities that also, all levels

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of community to really get the message
out there about palliative care

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services, what palliative care is.

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And a big part of that, I must say,
is also demystifying what it isn't.

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So, uh, I work very closely with
different community organizations,

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networks to really just engage as
well as we can, uh, with community

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at a whole lot of different levels.

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So, yeah, it's a great role and it really.

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brings together a lot of my experience
working with multicultural, multi

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faith community over the years.

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PCB's had a really long history working
with those communities over the years

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and I'm just enhancing that work and
that legacy moving forward, so great.

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Catherine: Lovely.

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And for those of us who aren't familiar
with what palliative care is, if you

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could just explain in maybe a sentence or
two what, what palliative care involves.

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Okay.

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Tonina: So, well, palliative care is.

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is actually quite a lot of things.

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It's not, it's not um, it's not very
narrow, it's actually quite wide.

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And it really is about giving
people the best, I guess, the

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best death that we can have.

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A good quality death.

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It's about understanding that even at
end of life, there's, It's important to

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have quality of life right to the end.

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And so in that respect, palliative care
is about offering a whole suite of,

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um, services which are really holistic
that looks at that person's needs at

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the centre of everything, um, in terms
of their, their physical needs, their

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psychological needs, their, uh, spiritual
needs and their cultural, et cetera.

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So it's really about trying to tap into
what it is that, that each and every one

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of us needs at that time of our lives.

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But it's also about supporting the
family and the people around that person.

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And it's, it's also understanding
that it's not just about end of life.

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It's also about way before we
get to that pointy end of things.

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It's about supporting people once they are
diagnosed with a life limiting illness.

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And what we say is that you can tap in
and out of palliative care, It's not about

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cure anymore, it's about care, but you
can still be on a curative journey as long

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as, and still be receiving palliative care
because there's that, that added factor,

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which is about caring for the person in
that sort of entirety and quality of life.

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So yeah, it's, it's simple, but
it's complex at the same time.

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Catherine: Well, we'll, we'll try
and unpack it a little bit as we,

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we move through, but I do like,
and I hadn't heard it before, how

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you talk about curative and care.

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That's, that's a, an interesting way in
which to put it, and it's a lovely way

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in which to think about it, is that,
that palliative care is the care aspect.

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Um, and it runs alongside the curative
approach, whatever that outcome may be.

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Um, which is, is really great to hear.

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So thank you for.

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for that sort of explanation.

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Now, Nicky, can you tell us about
your role and, and what, what

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happens at the, uh, the Center
for Cultural Diversity in Aging?

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Nikolaus: Thank you very much, Catherine.

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It's really a pleasure to be here.

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So I'm the manager at the Center for
Cultural Diversity in Aging or what's

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also known as Partners in Culturally
Appropriate Care Victorian Program.

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So, we run the PCAC program in Victoria
and we support aged care providers

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to be more inclusive, especially when
supporting and working with seniors from

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multi culture, but also, as Sunita said
before, we also talk about multi phase.

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So, we support aged care providers
across Victoria in helping them

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to be more culturally inclusive.

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We have that in a number of ways.

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We have our diversity mentoring program,
which we actually run across Victoria,

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but also with our partner organizations
in New South Wales, ACT, and Western

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Australia, where we support organizations
on a one on one basis that go through

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a program of four or five sessions.

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They do an assessment against
our inclusive services at the

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beginning and then at the end.

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Thank you.

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And we support them to make
organizational change, uh, in their

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aged care organization to help
them support them to be more, to

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deliver more inclusive services.

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We also do our webinars.

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We have monthly webinars on
different topics on culturally

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appropriate aged care.

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And we do a little bit of advocacy and
projects here and there, but the main

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thing is to support aged care providers to
help them to be more culturally inclusive.

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Catherine: Fantastic.

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Thank you for, for that explanation.

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I think it'll just help frame the
context in, in which we, we move

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forward with our conversations.

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So, how did you both meet?

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I think that, that Tonina, earlier
on we were just mentioning that

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there's been a lot of crossover in,
in your, your professional lives.

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Do you want to tell us a little bit about?

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Whoever would like to go first with the
explanation on how you know each other.

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I'll give you

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Tonina: that

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Catherine: role, Nicky.

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Nikolaus: Okay, thanks very much.

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So actually, we know each
other for a long time.

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I think it's since 2013,
what I can remember.

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And I met you first time at the, where
I'm working now, at the Center for

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Cultural Diversity and Aging's conference.

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I think it was, maybe it was a
year later, but So we, we know each

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other and we swapped roles as well.

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So I'm now at the center and
I was at ECC when I met Tonina

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and then we swapped roles.

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And yeah, it's a long time.

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And Tonina has worked
for many, many years.

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I don't know how many years you
can tell us at the Center for

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Cultural Diversity and Aging.

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We have been for three years now.

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Tonina: I was there for 12.

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Nikolaus: 12.

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Okay, there you go.

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So much more experience there.

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And I've been at ECC for
more than seven years.

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So, so anyway, and we are in a similar,
have been in a similar sector and

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collaborating and working with each
other and we always knew what we were

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doing and in similar sort of field, but
different organization, I would say.

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Yeah.

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Tonina: Yeah.

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So we're good friends too, which is good.

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Catherine: That's great.

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Because I, I think when I first met Nikki
and I suggested the podcast, she's like,

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well, I think we should get Tonina on.

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Uh, so, so, uh, it's good to have
you both on together and be able

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to walk us through this process.

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So, when we think of palliative and
aged care services, how does cultural

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diversity play a role in those services?

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Tonina: Um, well, I'm happy
to have a go at that one.

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00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:15,460
I guess it's, when you think about
palliative care and aged care, it

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really is about understanding that.

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We, we need to take a holistic
approach when we're dealing with,

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with any, any person, any family.

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So, really focusing in on what
those people's individual needs are.

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And that marries really, really
closely with with the expectations

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of palliative care, which is, as I
said before, it's a really holistic

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approach and, and aged care as well.

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So it's actually really pivotal.

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It's the, the culturally inclusive
approach and those, let's say

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the palliative approach and
the approach to aged care.

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It's, there's an enormous synergy
between them because you can't, you

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can't actually do palliative care
and aged care properly if you don't

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have a culturally inclusive approach.

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That's, that's the bottom line.

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Nicky?

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Nikolaus: I just want to add to that, if
that's okay, that in Australia we have 36.

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4 percent that were born overseas and
the majority of them were born in mainly

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non English speaking or culturally
and linguistically diverse countries.

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Communities or countries.

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So it's a quite a significant
part of the population.

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So we're not a minority anymore.

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Catherine: Yeah.

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Nikolaus: Culturally diverse seniors
and exactly what Tanina was saying.

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I think it's for any organization.

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It's important to have a culturally
inclusive approach when working with

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seniors or or communities, diverse
communities, because it's a very

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big proportion of our community.

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And we sometimes need to have
specific strategies for that.

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But at the same time, as Sunil was
saying, we need to have a holistic

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approach because everyone has a very, has
very unique needs and, and preferences.

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Catherine: And it's not like when you, um,
It totally makes sense to me because who

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you are is who you are and you're made up
from your, your place where you were born,

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your heritage, your spiritual beliefs.

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So it, it totally makes sense to
me that it has to be incorporated

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as part of the process.

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So tell me what are some of the
challenges that you encounter when

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trying to actually embed these,
these practices into an organization?

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Nikolaus: I just say one thing quickly,
because sometimes when we talk about

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language, for example, I think it's not,
not everyone would agree that language

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diversity or the right to express
oneself in one's preferred language is

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actually human right, according to the
UN Declaration of Human Rights from

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00:12:44,670 --> 00:12:50,510
1948, because it's, it's, it's not,
we're not, I think we can improve a

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little bit in Australia becoming more
multicultural, multilingual nation.

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We are multilingual, we are
multicultural, but we're not.

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Embracing that as much as we could,
if you compare it, for example, to

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other countries, I'm thinking about
Europe, for example, other continents

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where multilingualism is more common.

224
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So I think being able to whatever
it is to express one's culture,

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one's face, uh, one's, Everyone's
language is really important.

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And I think sometimes we try and simplify
things, which is important in a way for a

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provider to understand what are the real
key things, aspects we need to focus on.

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But when we simplify too much, we have a,
uh, a society where we are not responsive

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or inclusive of people's individual
diversity and diversity characteristics.

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Tonina: I'd also say that, unfortunately,
these sorts of approaches, they don't

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happen by default because, unfortunately,
our systems are set up as a bit of

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a one size fits all approach and, of
course, when, when we're dealing with

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people's differences and different
needs and individual preferences, we

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actually need systems that are a lot
more flexible and And deliberately

235
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set up to be able to be responsive
because it's not a one size fits all.

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We need to be able to, to look at the
systems that we are developing and

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embedding in our service provision
across the board, whether it's palliative

238
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care services, any health service,
aged care service, and you have to

239
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actually reflect on how are our, how
are we systematically being inclusive?

240
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It doesn't happen.

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by default.

242
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It has to happen by design.

243
00:14:35,260 --> 00:14:40,960
That's why we put so much effort into
developing resources like training and

244
00:14:40,980 --> 00:14:44,829
resources like the inclusive service
standards that, that we developed at

245
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:51,059
the centre to help organisations really
embed those systematic approaches.

246
00:14:51,089 --> 00:14:55,860
Because even, even if you just say,
Oh, well, you should use interpreters

247
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when you, when you're using a You
can't communicate with someone or

248
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someone can't communicate with you.

249
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It's all well and good to say, use
interpreters, but if it's not part of

250
00:15:04,075 --> 00:15:08,755
the infrastructure of your organisation,
it actually becomes impossible because

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as we know, those sorts of things never
happen in, in an aged care service unless

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it's part of a policy framework, unless
it's part of a procedural framework.

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And being, even just being able
to do something as simple as

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organising an interpreter requires.

255
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those infrastructures
within an organization.

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I've had that personal experience myself
when I had my mother in, in aged care.

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And I asked, well, can we, can we
maybe get an interpreter for her?

258
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And they looked at me blankly
saying, well, we've interpreter.

259
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Where do you get one of those?

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Um, how do we, how do we initiate any of
that happening within the organisations?

261
00:15:50,064 --> 00:15:52,614
We've never had an interpreter
in this organisation.

262
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I'm like, Oh my God.

263
00:15:53,954 --> 00:15:56,635
So it's a lot to be said for that.

264
00:15:57,005 --> 00:15:57,515
Catherine: Yeah.

265
00:15:57,515 --> 00:16:00,565
And, and look, I know from my own
personal experience, when we were

266
00:16:00,964 --> 00:16:05,495
running programs at the Royal Botanic
Gardens, we, we had to make sure that

267
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the budget was very specific when we
wanted to provide relaxed performances.

268
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That's generally for people
who are sensitive to loud

269
00:16:15,249 --> 00:16:17,490
noises or strobing lights.

270
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So we would, would make sure that we
had a budget where we allowed to have a

271
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relaxed performance and a relaxed space.

272
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So it's making that conscious decision,
isn't it, to, to make sure that

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you allocate the resources and the
funding to allow for that access.

274
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Tonina: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And.

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I might say one of the things I've,
I've often said is that what we tend

278
00:16:40,975 --> 00:16:45,435
to be seeing is that we're trying to
retrofit that stuff into organizations,

279
00:16:45,444 --> 00:16:50,865
so it always seems as an add on instead
of thinking about, well, what is our

280
00:16:50,865 --> 00:16:55,514
service offering and how do we make
that inclusive from the get go and what,

281
00:16:55,545 --> 00:17:00,564
what resources and funding do we need
to make that happen as opposed to we've

282
00:17:00,564 --> 00:17:06,155
set up all our systems and now, Oh, We
have to retrofit everything into, to

283
00:17:06,265 --> 00:17:12,265
accommodate the needs of those people
with neurodiverse people who need a quiet

284
00:17:12,265 --> 00:17:17,415
space or where we, where people who need
a prayer room because they, we should

285
00:17:17,415 --> 00:17:22,045
allow for people to, to pray at work if
they need to or whatever the issue is.

286
00:17:23,099 --> 00:17:24,079
Catherine: Yeah, yeah.

287
00:17:24,550 --> 00:17:27,260
And tell me, so obviously that's a
clear challenge that you're dealing

288
00:17:27,260 --> 00:17:32,210
with is the fact that you are trying to
retrofit into organizations that have

289
00:17:32,210 --> 00:17:34,400
limited resources and infrastructure.

290
00:17:34,799 --> 00:17:38,250
So what are the some of the things, you
had just mentioned to Nina earlier, that

291
00:17:38,259 --> 00:17:42,040
when you're working at the the Center
for Cultural Diversity and Aging, that

292
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,450
there was some guidelines, did you say?

293
00:17:44,450 --> 00:17:49,100
Or Yeah, I'll let Nicky
talk about that, yeah.

294
00:17:49,519 --> 00:17:49,919
Nikolaus: Thanks.

295
00:17:49,919 --> 00:17:53,290
Yeah, so, so we have at the Center for
Cultural Diversity and Aging, we have the,

296
00:17:53,300 --> 00:17:56,986
the, the practice at Inclusive Service
that were developed by Tunina Gucciadou

297
00:17:56,986 --> 00:18:01,270
Maski and Ljubica Petrov and Dale Park.

298
00:18:01,310 --> 00:18:05,870
And basic, and then we have
Lisa Chibuza updated them later.

299
00:18:06,350 --> 00:18:09,810
They have the same, the same
inclusive service standards.

300
00:18:09,810 --> 00:18:13,709
But basically, they are a
guide to help an organization.

301
00:18:14,125 --> 00:18:17,564
Tonina was talking before across the
systemic level of the organization,

302
00:18:17,564 --> 00:18:19,425
how to be more inclusive.

303
00:18:19,435 --> 00:18:23,254
And that goes across 16 performance
measures that the organization

304
00:18:23,254 --> 00:18:26,965
can soon audit and planning tool
assess themselves as well and

305
00:18:26,965 --> 00:18:28,794
look into how inclusive they are.

306
00:18:29,215 --> 00:18:32,184
And that's what we're doing with our
diversity mentoring program clients.

307
00:18:32,184 --> 00:18:35,095
They go through an assessment at the
beginning of the program, then the

308
00:18:35,095 --> 00:18:36,524
end to see how they have tracked.

309
00:18:37,485 --> 00:18:40,764
And it's just something I wanted to add as
well to the conversation we were having.

310
00:18:41,145 --> 00:18:44,755
I think because sort of Tony and I,
we sort of Tech teaming a little bit.

311
00:18:44,795 --> 00:18:49,105
I think it's also important to add that
each organization is a different part.

312
00:18:49,499 --> 00:18:50,870
on their inclusion journey.

313
00:18:51,220 --> 00:18:53,750
And it's a journey because I
don't think there's an, uh,

314
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:55,510
necessarily start and ending point.

315
00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:00,529
It's just that organizing at different
levels of inclusion, some organizer

316
00:19:00,529 --> 00:19:04,309
doing great work, that's part of
their operations being inclusive.

317
00:19:04,350 --> 00:19:06,329
They do that across the organizations.

318
00:19:06,689 --> 00:19:08,079
And then there's other
ones that are learning.

319
00:19:08,079 --> 00:19:08,860
There's some starting.

320
00:19:08,860 --> 00:19:10,799
There's maybe not even
interpreter available.

321
00:19:11,379 --> 00:19:16,720
So I think it's also important to say
that not every organization has the same

322
00:19:17,550 --> 00:19:21,429
capacity needs or, or, or knowledge.

323
00:19:21,750 --> 00:19:22,990
So that's why it's a journey.

324
00:19:22,990 --> 00:19:28,419
So anyone who wants to join the journey,
organizing such as the PICA here in

325
00:19:28,419 --> 00:19:33,099
Victoria or program or the center, we
try to help them in when it comes to

326
00:19:33,099 --> 00:19:36,759
supporting them to be more culturally
inclusive and, and the people.

327
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,300
The inclusive services is
one of our key resources.

328
00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:43,190
We are, they're based on the current
quality standards, but we want to update

329
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:45,080
a new resource we haven't launched yet.

330
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:49,669
So we'll not talk too much about, but it's
basically a relaunch or different sort of

331
00:19:49,700 --> 00:19:51,479
resource based on the new strengths and.

332
00:19:52,084 --> 00:19:55,325
Aged care quality standards,
because they're going to change

333
00:19:55,325 --> 00:19:57,205
as well, or have been changing.

334
00:19:57,835 --> 00:20:02,534
Catherine: I was hoping I was going to get
a scoop there, Nicky, but uh, obviously

335
00:20:02,534 --> 00:20:06,115
you're keeping your cards close to your
chest on that one at the moment, so,

336
00:20:08,145 --> 00:20:14,384
but I suppose for me, what I liken it to
when you're both talking is the fact that

337
00:20:14,394 --> 00:20:24,169
reconciliation action plans are something
various stages with, uh, implementing

338
00:20:24,169 --> 00:20:28,950
or whether they've started or, and it
seems very similar that organisations at

339
00:20:28,950 --> 00:20:32,950
the same space, maybe at the same sort
of going through the same processes with

340
00:20:32,950 --> 00:20:34,970
that, that cultural inclusion as well.

341
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:41,635
And, And what, because as you said, it's
not really a, uh, a minority any longer.

342
00:20:41,635 --> 00:20:47,005
Is it, we're dealing with a significant
proportion of the, the, um, population.

343
00:20:47,285 --> 00:20:50,075
And also we're dealing
with an aging population.

344
00:20:50,075 --> 00:20:52,464
So the numbers will
only increase over time.

345
00:20:53,024 --> 00:20:58,534
So when you think of, of best practices
or what's available now that people

346
00:20:58,534 --> 00:21:01,165
can seek from your organizations, what.

347
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,020
You mentioned the, the, the guidelines.

348
00:21:04,270 --> 00:21:07,500
What other things, Nicky, can
people come to you, you've got your

349
00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:11,689
mentoring program, what other things
if they're thinking about improving

350
00:21:11,700 --> 00:21:14,320
their, their inclusive practices?

351
00:21:14,780 --> 00:21:17,010
Nikolaus: Yeah, I haven't actually
mentioned our most popular

352
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:18,590
resource, our communication cards.

353
00:21:18,730 --> 00:21:21,640
Donina is smiling because she
was one of them to get up a

354
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:22,940
little bit, so we developed them.

355
00:21:23,350 --> 00:21:26,919
We have them in now more than 70
languages available, so we're increasing

356
00:21:26,919 --> 00:21:28,989
them and always getting new languages.

357
00:21:28,999 --> 00:21:33,409
One of the recent additions was
Tongan, and they're used across

358
00:21:33,409 --> 00:21:36,350
the world, actually, and we
have very high hits, so I think.

359
00:21:36,845 --> 00:21:41,965
In the last, in the, in the period between
January and June, we had around, I think

360
00:21:41,975 --> 00:21:47,084
just under 30, 000 hits for these ones
across Australia and internationally.

361
00:21:47,085 --> 00:21:49,304
I don't know how that happens,
but they're very popular.

362
00:21:49,814 --> 00:21:53,114
And then we have, we have
different training options.

363
00:21:53,554 --> 00:21:56,095
We also want to do more
training in regional areas.

364
00:21:56,775 --> 00:21:59,355
We have our webinars, we have
our diversity mentoring program.

365
00:21:59,365 --> 00:22:03,014
We also have, which I'll talk a little
bit later about, but we also have

366
00:22:03,014 --> 00:22:07,274
our cultural care plan, which is a
resource to support an organization

367
00:22:07,274 --> 00:22:12,245
to look at what are some of the needs
a senior or aged care client has.

368
00:22:12,399 --> 00:22:18,060
It comes to spirituality or food
or care, care plan that need to

369
00:22:18,060 --> 00:22:21,900
be considered in terms of their
language, culture, diversity, face

370
00:22:21,900 --> 00:22:23,020
diversity, that sort of thing.

371
00:22:23,570 --> 00:22:28,210
Uh, and also we have our practice guides,
around 20 practice guides around different

372
00:22:28,230 --> 00:22:32,019
topics in culture appropriate care,
which give us sort of a snapshot, two,

373
00:22:32,019 --> 00:22:34,129
three, four pages on a specific topic.

374
00:22:34,409 --> 00:22:38,149
So help some aged care provider to
start looking at what are the basics

375
00:22:38,660 --> 00:22:42,000
they need to look at when it comes to,
for example, culture appropriate food.

376
00:22:42,570 --> 00:22:47,270
culture appropriate dementia care,
end of life care, some of the topics

377
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:51,440
we are covering and give, give that
initial understanding of what sort

378
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,520
of, where organization can start
from and improve in that space.

379
00:22:56,810 --> 00:23:00,580
Catherine: And it seems like you've
developed them in byte size, some

380
00:23:00,580 --> 00:23:02,230
of the resources to be in byte size.

381
00:23:02,230 --> 00:23:03,840
So it doesn't seem to be overwhelming.

382
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,479
It seems that people can, can implement
just the communication guides alone is

383
00:23:08,479 --> 00:23:10,550
a, is a step in the right direction.

384
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,249
And can you perhaps explain
to people what, what those

385
00:23:13,279 --> 00:23:14,979
communication guides entail?

386
00:23:15,679 --> 00:23:19,979
Nikolaus: So the communication cards are
basically a common, so helping a aged

387
00:23:19,979 --> 00:23:25,659
care staff and a client from diverse
backgrounds to have a conversation or

388
00:23:25,699 --> 00:23:29,750
not conversation, but have a bit of
an interaction on what are key issues

389
00:23:29,950 --> 00:23:31,809
when it comes to their care needs.

390
00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:33,724
For example, there, if you look at.

391
00:23:33,865 --> 00:23:36,745
There's a card, for example, where
you can hold up, where you have a

392
00:23:36,745 --> 00:23:41,365
picture of food, for example, and
you have the option for some kosher

393
00:23:41,365 --> 00:23:44,054
food, halal food, vegetarian food.

394
00:23:44,054 --> 00:23:48,584
So, or if you want the priest, there's
a picture of the priest of the orthodox

395
00:23:48,584 --> 00:23:53,694
priest, for example, and then it's in that
target language and in English as well.

396
00:23:53,695 --> 00:23:56,755
And some of them also have the
pronunciation there as well.

397
00:23:56,755 --> 00:23:57,235
So people.

398
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,840
Helps them a little bit how to actually
pronounce that in, in the target language.

399
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:07,650
So it's basically helping basic care
needs through language interaction.

400
00:24:07,660 --> 00:24:12,119
It doesn't, it's not a, it's,
it's not like replacing an

401
00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:13,589
interpreter or anything like that.

402
00:24:13,940 --> 00:24:17,944
But if you have something that you
need on the day, on the spot, And

403
00:24:18,004 --> 00:24:22,685
it covers the main sort of personal
care needs of an, of a person,

404
00:24:22,845 --> 00:24:24,764
uh, in, in more than 70 languages.

405
00:24:24,764 --> 00:24:28,024
And we also develop them into phrases.

406
00:24:28,054 --> 00:24:32,784
We have them into phrases as well, because
people said we want to have them as, as

407
00:24:32,794 --> 00:24:37,774
phrases, because we want to have more, be
able to say more things than just food or.

408
00:24:38,610 --> 00:24:41,780
Uh, showering or brushing teeth,
whatever it is, so there's a

409
00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:43,880
bit more, more options as well.

410
00:24:44,340 --> 00:24:46,810
So, yeah, they're all available
at our culturediversity.

411
00:24:46,850 --> 00:24:47,050
com.

412
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:47,980
au website.

413
00:24:49,029 --> 00:24:53,410
Catherine: That's fantastic because it is
those, as you were saying earlier, Tonina,

414
00:24:53,410 --> 00:24:57,499
in your own personal experience, the
challenges of, of finding an interpreter,

415
00:24:57,850 --> 00:25:00,814
when a lot of the conversations
are those, those, those, those.

416
00:25:00,975 --> 00:25:07,185
Everyday conversations about personal
care and and food and and so it's

417
00:25:07,185 --> 00:25:10,695
great that there is a resource I'm not
surprised at all that they're blowing the

418
00:25:10,695 --> 00:25:14,775
numbers with with their downloads to be
perfectly honest It's such a practical

419
00:25:14,775 --> 00:25:22,070
tool to to use and and I see them being
just a great tool for everyday use,

420
00:25:22,310 --> 00:25:27,739
not even just in an aged care facility,
but also we have other services that

421
00:25:27,739 --> 00:25:32,570
actually allied services, which actually
work alongside the aged care community.

422
00:25:32,570 --> 00:25:36,399
And, and they're just such a great
resource for people to be able to use.

423
00:25:36,399 --> 00:25:37,929
I think it's, it's beautiful.

424
00:25:38,970 --> 00:25:42,840
Tonina: I've heard of people actually
downloading them and putting them on

425
00:25:43,379 --> 00:25:50,660
little cards and Hanging them on people's
walkers, like the significant ones.

426
00:25:50,690 --> 00:25:54,810
Because I think there's over, there's
quite a few in the, in the group.

427
00:25:54,819 --> 00:25:57,830
So it's about, I can't remember how
many they are, but there's a lot.

428
00:25:58,129 --> 00:26:01,480
So you can choose which
ones you want to download.

429
00:26:01,879 --> 00:26:07,325
And yeah, and I've heard that, people
actually have them close by, near people,

430
00:26:07,325 --> 00:26:10,055
so that they can use them all the time.

431
00:26:10,085 --> 00:26:13,754
So it's pretty extraordinary that
we've been able to develop them so

432
00:26:13,794 --> 00:26:18,595
much from being a fairly simple idea
many years ago, and now they've,

433
00:26:18,595 --> 00:26:20,145
you develop them even further.

434
00:26:20,145 --> 00:26:21,004
It's fantastic.

435
00:26:21,935 --> 00:26:24,695
Catherine: Yeah, I think that's,
that's absolutely brilliant.

436
00:26:24,764 --> 00:26:30,745
And what role does language play
in palliative care and effective

437
00:26:30,764 --> 00:26:33,205
palliative care across all cultures?

438
00:26:35,335 --> 00:26:35,635
Well,

439
00:26:35,635 --> 00:26:40,420
Tonina: look, I think we can't
underestimate just how pivotal You

440
00:26:40,420 --> 00:26:46,389
know, languages, quite honestly,
I mean, it is the main tool we use

441
00:26:46,389 --> 00:26:47,720
to communicate with one another.

442
00:26:47,909 --> 00:26:52,769
So, sure, a lot of communication
is non verbal, but so much

443
00:26:52,769 --> 00:26:54,260
of it is verbal as well.

444
00:26:54,330 --> 00:27:00,389
And honestly, if we are not giving people
the opportunity to express themselves

445
00:27:00,469 --> 00:27:05,620
in the language that they feel most at
home with, most comfortable with, most

446
00:27:05,900 --> 00:27:11,825
au fait with, and quite frankly, comes
naturally to them, then we're losing the

447
00:27:11,835 --> 00:27:18,625
battle, aren't we, in terms of actually
engaging in serious communication

448
00:27:18,635 --> 00:27:23,445
with that person, actually giving
that person the respect they need, the

449
00:27:23,445 --> 00:27:26,255
voice that they need to, to be given.

450
00:27:26,435 --> 00:27:28,675
to communicate effectively with you.

451
00:27:28,685 --> 00:27:33,985
So it's, it can't be underestimated
how important it is that we

452
00:27:33,985 --> 00:27:35,475
allow for that opportunity.

453
00:27:35,475 --> 00:27:39,955
And we use all the resources we have
at hand, whether it's working with

454
00:27:39,955 --> 00:27:44,345
an interpreter or getting access to
resources, like we've just talked

455
00:27:44,355 --> 00:27:49,710
about, the communication cards or
the many, many vast, resources that

456
00:27:49,710 --> 00:27:52,470
exist, um, that are in language.

457
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:58,830
Know where to download the information in
language for, for a family, for a person.

458
00:27:59,970 --> 00:28:04,260
It just, anything that can aid that
knowledge and that, and that, that

459
00:28:04,260 --> 00:28:06,230
interaction is really important.

460
00:28:08,500 --> 00:28:11,380
Catherine: And Tonina, I might
just go back to you again because

461
00:28:11,410 --> 00:28:13,640
I'd, I'd ask the question of Nikki.

462
00:28:14,250 --> 00:28:19,109
In relation to what sort of tools
do, do Palliative Care Victoria have

463
00:28:19,129 --> 00:28:24,520
that they can offer people to support
them wanting to do best practice

464
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,210
for cultural diversity and inclusion
in their, in their workplaces?

465
00:28:29,845 --> 00:28:34,735
Tonina: Well, look, the sector's
really quite, quite well resourced in

466
00:28:34,765 --> 00:28:38,304
terms of the standards around this.

467
00:28:38,405 --> 00:28:43,265
The expectation is, in fact, one of
the key elements of the palliative

468
00:28:43,504 --> 00:28:47,369
care standards for specialists and non
specialists in that, in that sector.

469
00:28:47,630 --> 00:28:53,620
You know, who provide palliative care
is caring for people's diverse needs.

470
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,730
So, it's quite, it's a central
pillar to the work that we do.

471
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,859
And again, it's because it is
such a holistic idea to, to, to

472
00:29:02,990 --> 00:29:05,509
develop, to deliver palliative care.

473
00:29:05,509 --> 00:29:08,490
So, that is very helpful.

474
00:29:08,510 --> 00:29:11,970
And I think the same can be said for
aged care, where it's, it's embodied

475
00:29:11,990 --> 00:29:13,790
in the standards that this is.

476
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,959
And we've got to learn how
to do that really well.

477
00:29:18,510 --> 00:29:22,949
In terms of our work, you
know, we, we support the sector

478
00:29:22,949 --> 00:29:24,900
with multilingual information.

479
00:29:25,279 --> 00:29:29,949
We have, um, a lot of resources on
our website that can be downloaded

480
00:29:29,950 --> 00:29:32,429
directly, uh, in language.

481
00:29:33,449 --> 00:29:37,824
We actually have the pages on our
website are in language as well.

482
00:29:37,824 --> 00:29:41,659
So people can click into,
um, a page and it will.

483
00:29:42,100 --> 00:29:46,880
Talk to you in your language, um, so
it's not just about downloading, um,

484
00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:54,509
a flyer, but also, yeah, we just do a
lot of that engaging with the sector,

485
00:29:55,100 --> 00:29:58,600
with community, but also engaging
with the sector about how to go about.

486
00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:03,290
you know, engaging with multicultural,
multi faith communities.

487
00:30:03,370 --> 00:30:05,540
So we try and walk the talk.

488
00:30:06,110 --> 00:30:10,480
So if anybody, um, is interested in
learning more about how we do that,

489
00:30:10,490 --> 00:30:15,820
you know, it's, it's about, um, it's
about best practice and helping people

490
00:30:15,820 --> 00:30:20,020
navigate, like, Like Nicholas said,
everyone is on a different journey.

491
00:30:20,050 --> 00:30:27,100
So we're really lucky here that we, we
are, we have recognized how important

492
00:30:27,100 --> 00:30:28,920
it is to resource this area of work.

493
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:33,930
It doesn't happen, as I said, by
default, it has to happen by design

494
00:30:33,930 --> 00:30:35,540
and it has to be resourced well.

495
00:30:36,090 --> 00:30:39,040
And so I feel really very
well supported in that.

496
00:30:39,590 --> 00:30:44,645
But, Other organizations may
not have that same support.

497
00:30:45,035 --> 00:30:47,745
So, yeah, it's about sharing what we know.

498
00:30:47,985 --> 00:30:53,074
We often will report on the work that
we're doing to, to help the sector

499
00:30:53,125 --> 00:30:56,465
build up their, their knowledge
and their capacity in this space.

500
00:30:57,175 --> 00:30:59,834
And there's also so many
resources out there.

501
00:31:00,224 --> 00:31:01,294
So, so many.

502
00:31:01,304 --> 00:31:05,485
It's not for lack of having access to
resources that we, we struggle with

503
00:31:05,485 --> 00:31:07,545
this area of work, quite honestly.

504
00:31:08,570 --> 00:31:12,190
Catherine: And we will actually have
links to both of your websites, so

505
00:31:12,580 --> 00:31:16,170
people can actually find the resources
that you're referring to as well.

506
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:22,680
But something that, that I wonder, um,
how do we do this well, and, and obviously

507
00:31:22,699 --> 00:31:27,660
Maggie Beer has been very instrumental
in this in the last, uh, few months

508
00:31:27,660 --> 00:31:32,609
with her, uh, going into an aged care
facility and talking about food and,

509
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,600
and the thing that I think about when
I think about my cultural heritage,

510
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,750
which is, uh, very, uh, European in
the, in the English version and then

511
00:31:42,830 --> 00:31:44,940
Austrian, German, somewhere there.

512
00:31:45,450 --> 00:31:49,500
I, I think about, for me, it's, I grew
up with Yorkshire pudding and roast.

513
00:31:49,970 --> 00:31:55,940
Uh, and when I think about my nephew
and his wife, she's Mauritian, so

514
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:57,980
they cook the best lamb biryani ever.

515
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:03,260
So how do you incorporate
something as central as food?

516
00:32:07,570 --> 00:32:09,390
It's a curveball, sorry, I'm

517
00:32:09,390 --> 00:32:09,930
Tonina: just sort of thinking,

518
00:32:11,180 --> 00:32:12,660
Catherine: like how do we do that?

519
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,529
Nikolaus: Okay, I think one thing
that's important to acknowledge, you

520
00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:22,750
said it in your question in a way that
there's so many different food options.

521
00:32:23,810 --> 00:32:28,960
And for example, when we talk about the
new Aged Care Quality Standards, there

522
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,370
is one that specifically focuses on food.

523
00:32:33,585 --> 00:32:38,185
And actually the quality and safety
commission actually said very clearly

524
00:32:38,185 --> 00:32:42,014
to us in one of our recent meetings, if
someone has a requirement for specific

525
00:32:42,015 --> 00:32:46,804
food requirements, whether it's halal,
whether it's kosher or Jane vegetarian,

526
00:32:46,805 --> 00:32:48,524
whatever it's, it's actual requirement.

527
00:32:49,150 --> 00:32:52,840
The organization has to
provide that, full stop.

528
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:53,420
That's great.

529
00:32:54,220 --> 00:32:58,560
Now, whether an organization does it
or not, that's a whole other question,

530
00:32:58,570 --> 00:33:03,239
how actually that works with, you know,
catering arrangements or cooking on site.

531
00:33:04,130 --> 00:33:07,079
But I want to give an example of one
organization that does it really well,

532
00:33:07,079 --> 00:33:09,399
so I give a bit of a, uh, a thumbs up.

533
00:33:09,399 --> 00:33:12,620
There is Kalina Care, when we
visited them, they have very

534
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,780
tailored, they do a very tailored
way of putting food in the very.

535
00:33:17,230 --> 00:33:20,210
Multicultural way on the,
on their, on their menus.

536
00:33:20,210 --> 00:33:24,330
So they consult with the residents
and they offer them two or three

537
00:33:24,330 --> 00:33:26,250
different dishes to have a cook on site.

538
00:33:27,090 --> 00:33:29,970
And they have cooked dishes that
it's either, they have a founder as

539
00:33:29,970 --> 00:33:33,840
a Ukrainian aged care facility, but
they're more and more multicultural.

540
00:33:34,260 --> 00:33:37,219
So they have usually something
that's Ukrainian specific.

541
00:33:37,219 --> 00:33:39,800
And then there's two other,
other dishes, multiculturalists.

542
00:33:40,630 --> 00:33:42,750
So they give people different options.

543
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,209
And obviously food is very important
for everyone, whether it's aged

544
00:33:46,250 --> 00:33:48,270
care or any, any individual.

545
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:50,400
So I think that's something that.

546
00:33:50,810 --> 00:33:55,130
Some organizations obviously do that,
try to get consumer feedback through

547
00:33:55,150 --> 00:33:59,930
residents, advisory committees, whatever
it is, to make sure they hit the mark.

548
00:34:00,450 --> 00:34:04,640
But obviously it's not that easy
because the textures, then the

549
00:34:04,690 --> 00:34:07,839
nutrients, all that stuff, there's
also a bit of compliance involved.

550
00:34:07,850 --> 00:34:11,790
So it's something that I
think some organizations, they

551
00:34:11,790 --> 00:34:12,980
need to improve a little bit.

552
00:34:13,625 --> 00:34:17,275
Or significantly, and there are some
organizations who probably have it more

553
00:34:17,275 --> 00:34:22,745
in their DNA because they are, I guess,
more specialized, or more, have put

554
00:34:22,745 --> 00:34:26,305
more resources into, into doing that.

555
00:34:28,044 --> 00:34:31,834
Catherine: Something that was really
good that, and it reminded me when you

556
00:34:31,845 --> 00:34:37,020
said the word texture is the fact that,
that's, that's, It's so complex when

557
00:34:37,050 --> 00:34:42,630
that particular series was talking about
food and wanting to change practices.

558
00:34:43,060 --> 00:34:46,550
Was there so many considerations
when you're dealing with feeding

559
00:34:46,890 --> 00:34:50,830
a large group of people who are
all unique with their needs?

560
00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:56,060
And I think that that's the, There
seems to be the challenge with, I

561
00:34:56,090 --> 00:35:00,610
suppose, any sector, but I suppose
as people age, they perhaps become

562
00:35:00,610 --> 00:35:04,650
more vulnerable or perhaps lose the
ability to communicate as effectively

563
00:35:04,650 --> 00:35:07,070
as perhaps they once would have been.

564
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:12,490
So yeah, it seems to be a very
challenging space you're both working in.

565
00:35:13,020 --> 00:35:16,060
Nikolaus: I just want to add to that,
that for example, I met once a senior

566
00:35:16,060 --> 00:35:20,249
from an Indian background and she said
that her husband went to one of the

567
00:35:20,270 --> 00:35:25,785
facilities and he really wanted to Rice
and curry, but they could not deliver

568
00:35:25,815 --> 00:35:28,055
that in that facility for various reasons.

569
00:35:28,285 --> 00:35:30,135
So she brought the food in all the time.

570
00:35:30,145 --> 00:35:33,014
There's also issues within people
bringing food, that sort of thing.

571
00:35:33,014 --> 00:35:35,875
But that was the only way that her
husband would eat the food, because

572
00:35:35,875 --> 00:35:37,004
she would bring it every day.

573
00:35:37,980 --> 00:35:38,480
Tonina: Yeah.

574
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:38,870
Yeah.

575
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:40,250
It's funny.

576
00:35:40,260 --> 00:35:45,050
I was on the board of a, an
Italian facility for some years

577
00:35:45,050 --> 00:35:47,640
and the, the food was amazing.

578
00:35:47,670 --> 00:35:50,079
We had Italian chefs
and all the rest of it.

579
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:56,290
Very good quality food, but the biggest
complaint always was about food.

580
00:35:56,515 --> 00:36:01,345
So, even though we, it was always a
sticking point, there's always someone

581
00:36:01,345 --> 00:36:05,965
there who didn't think the lasagna
was right or the, the whatever,

582
00:36:05,965 --> 00:36:08,124
it was just not quite like home.

583
00:36:08,125 --> 00:36:11,785
So, it's just always going to
be a challenge, even in a, in a,

584
00:36:11,814 --> 00:36:13,935
in an ethno specific facility.

585
00:36:15,325 --> 00:36:18,145
Catherine: Even when you're not,
like when, when I was at the

586
00:36:18,145 --> 00:36:20,025
gardens, 13 years, feedback.

587
00:36:20,575 --> 00:36:23,425
It would always be about
the food or the coffee.

588
00:36:23,425 --> 00:36:24,005
I

589
00:36:24,005 --> 00:36:26,815
Tonina: think it's because it's
something so tangible, isn't it?

590
00:36:27,495 --> 00:36:31,385
And it's a lot of stuff about
cultural, culture and cultural

591
00:36:31,385 --> 00:36:33,214
inclusion is really intangible.

592
00:36:33,214 --> 00:36:37,375
Like it's just, but something like
food, language, those are the hard

593
00:36:37,385 --> 00:36:39,465
things we can, we can focus in on.

594
00:36:39,775 --> 00:36:43,295
And if we can get some of
those things right, I think

595
00:36:43,365 --> 00:36:45,015
it helps with the other stuff.

596
00:36:45,045 --> 00:36:47,705
There's, it's a bit like a domino effect.

597
00:36:50,095 --> 00:36:53,615
Catherine: And how do we get things
right when it comes to spiritual needs?

598
00:36:56,105 --> 00:37:00,545
Tonina: Well, that's interesting because
obviously the area that I'm working

599
00:37:00,545 --> 00:37:05,601
in, in palliative care, there's a lot
of talk about spirituality as well.

600
00:37:05,601 --> 00:37:12,910
And I guess, It makes sense because when
you are in this space, you are talking

601
00:37:12,940 --> 00:37:15,360
about things that are existential.

602
00:37:15,450 --> 00:37:19,980
It come, things come to a point,
especially, uh, when you're questioning

603
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,240
faith, life, all those things.

604
00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:26,729
They tend to converge at
times like end of life.

605
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:32,450
Funny that, but yeah, we, I think
the, the most important thing there is

606
00:37:32,450 --> 00:37:37,915
again, to come back to having the, the
right conversations at the right time

607
00:37:37,915 --> 00:37:43,504
with people, allowing for people to
express what their needs are in terms

608
00:37:43,504 --> 00:37:49,955
of their spirituality and supporting
that journey, however it needs to go.

609
00:37:50,375 --> 00:37:55,845
And so the religious, making sure we make
allowance for religious practices, for

610
00:37:55,875 --> 00:38:01,565
preferences, for religious obligations
at end of life, things like that.

611
00:38:01,595 --> 00:38:07,020
And just, Just being open to
the fact that people have.

612
00:38:08,735 --> 00:38:13,415
Needs at that, at that time of life, they
don't always agree in families either.

613
00:38:14,135 --> 00:38:18,925
Um, so navigating that, but really being
open to those conversations and leading

614
00:38:18,925 --> 00:38:23,664
those conversations because sometimes
people need the permission from the, the

615
00:38:23,664 --> 00:38:27,584
care team to, to say, are we allowed to?

616
00:38:27,775 --> 00:38:28,465
Blah, blah.

617
00:38:28,575 --> 00:38:30,325
Can we have blah, blah?

618
00:38:30,385 --> 00:38:34,165
It really needs to be a part
of the, part of the whole.

619
00:38:36,355 --> 00:38:42,165
Catherine: And it seems that with what
you were saying, Nikki, about the wife

620
00:38:42,165 --> 00:38:47,165
that used to bring in the food for her
husband, even when you were talking just

621
00:38:47,165 --> 00:38:54,915
then, Tonina, about spiritual needs and,
and what that person individually needs.

622
00:38:55,445 --> 00:39:00,640
It seems to me that The earlier that
we have the conversations with our

623
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:06,639
loved ones about what they need and
what's important to them seems to

624
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,480
be the key to then tailor any care.

625
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:12,590
Would that be fair to say?

626
00:39:13,220 --> 00:39:16,150
Nikolaus: Yes, it would be fair to say
with advanced care planning, the only

627
00:39:16,170 --> 00:39:18,590
thing is that a lot of people do it.

628
00:39:19,720 --> 00:39:20,110
Catherine: Yeah.

629
00:39:20,150 --> 00:39:20,300
Because they

630
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,410
Nikolaus: think it's about, you know,
they're sort of, it's people already

631
00:39:23,410 --> 00:39:27,459
wanting to plan, you know, are we
thinking about of their deaths and

632
00:39:27,460 --> 00:39:28,569
they don't want to think about it.

633
00:39:28,690 --> 00:39:29,959
And I think most of us are like that.

634
00:39:29,959 --> 00:39:31,160
A lot of people are like that.

635
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:36,560
But I think it also, even, even then,
it needs that responsive, inclusive

636
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,430
approach to explain that, to have that
conversation with the community, to.

637
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,180
But yeah, it's an interesting conversation
and yeah, I remember there was a project

638
00:39:48,180 --> 00:39:50,140
that ECCB did on advanced care planning.

639
00:39:50,140 --> 00:39:52,290
There was a project report and everything.

640
00:39:52,730 --> 00:39:55,680
And that was some of the issues that were
found that each community has a different

641
00:39:55,690 --> 00:40:00,380
way of approaching it needs that sort of
tailored approach to the community because

642
00:40:00,399 --> 00:40:02,519
they would perceive things differently.

643
00:40:03,140 --> 00:40:03,400
Tonina: Mm.

644
00:40:03,660 --> 00:40:04,000
Yeah.

645
00:40:04,110 --> 00:40:04,430
Yeah.

646
00:40:04,430 --> 00:40:09,430
And even within the same
religious denomination, there are

647
00:40:09,430 --> 00:40:12,730
differences between each family,
the way that they express that.

648
00:40:12,730 --> 00:40:17,240
So even if we know the, if we know
generally that Catholics do this, this

649
00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:21,409
and this in terms of rituals and whatnot,
but every family will express that.

650
00:40:21,590 --> 00:40:26,220
Express that, experience that in
a, in a way that's totally unique.

651
00:40:26,290 --> 00:40:32,080
So it is about, yeah, just having,
asking the right questions, I suppose.

652
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,879
That's what we've basically
come down to, isn't it, Nicky?

653
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,410
Nikolaus: And I think
that's, that's another thing.

654
00:40:38,410 --> 00:40:40,239
I think having these
conversations, because they're

655
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,460
not easy conversations to have.

656
00:40:42,950 --> 00:40:45,920
And for example, I don't
have an advanced care plan.

657
00:40:45,930 --> 00:40:49,720
I, I could have one, everyone, any
age can have an advanced care plan.

658
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:51,340
Yeah.

659
00:40:51,340 --> 00:40:52,300
It's something that.

660
00:40:52,615 --> 00:40:57,685
I think there's lots because if you, yeah,
there's a lots involved when you develop.

661
00:40:58,225 --> 00:40:59,205
Something like that.

662
00:40:59,215 --> 00:41:00,495
A lot of emotions.

663
00:41:01,185 --> 00:41:02,075
Yeah.

664
00:41:02,155 --> 00:41:07,115
And yeah, it's a, it's a tricky thing,
but we know that it would be good

665
00:41:07,115 --> 00:41:12,475
because for any, for a family member,
your partner, whatever, it's so much

666
00:41:12,475 --> 00:41:14,125
easier if you have everything in place.

667
00:41:15,595 --> 00:41:19,565
Catherine: And it seems to be when I, when
I talk about having the conversations,

668
00:41:19,565 --> 00:41:23,205
it's interesting that you went
straight to advanced care plans, Nicky.

669
00:41:23,614 --> 00:41:28,274
See, with me, when I think about
end of life planning, I, I go back,

670
00:41:28,275 --> 00:41:29,794
who's going to take care of the pets?

671
00:41:29,925 --> 00:41:31,035
Where's the car keys?

672
00:41:31,874 --> 00:41:34,265
I go, I go back to the practical, but.

673
00:41:34,410 --> 00:41:35,960
application before that.

674
00:41:35,970 --> 00:41:41,920
So, for me, it's those conversations
about the practical sort of mundane

675
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:47,400
things before we even get into the,
to the care that, is that where we

676
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,969
should, should we be starting those
conversations there, do you think, before

677
00:41:50,969 --> 00:41:52,750
we get into the advanced care planning?

678
00:41:55,550 --> 00:42:00,190
Tonina: I think so, but they're not,
not necessarily easy conversations,

679
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:05,990
like we say, and we try and introduce
those conversations gently in community.

680
00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:11,630
I mean, one of the things is that
if we, we try and approach community

681
00:42:11,630 --> 00:42:15,760
about palliative care, there's a
bit, there might be more resistance

682
00:42:15,790 --> 00:42:17,979
to having that conversation.

683
00:42:18,300 --> 00:42:21,609
But if we approach them in terms
of saying, okay, advanced care

684
00:42:21,610 --> 00:42:23,670
planning, what's important to you?

685
00:42:23,929 --> 00:42:26,719
How do you, who's going
to make decisions for you?

686
00:42:26,769 --> 00:42:31,620
All those sorts of more, you know, it's
a different way into the conversation.

687
00:42:31,620 --> 00:42:32,400
And sometimes.

688
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:32,419
Yeah.

689
00:42:32,850 --> 00:42:35,790
You know, even though what you
just said, Nicky, is that it's

690
00:42:35,790 --> 00:42:39,030
hard to have advanced care planning
conversations, it's even harder to

691
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:40,700
have palliative care conversations.

692
00:42:40,700 --> 00:42:44,549
So we sometimes use the, the
advanced care planning route.

693
00:42:45,059 --> 00:42:50,090
What's important to you, thinking
about if something was to happen, blah,

694
00:42:50,090 --> 00:42:55,380
blah, blah, like you're suggesting,
Catherine, um, is an easier conversation.

695
00:42:56,190 --> 00:42:59,890
And it's a step, a step into
palliative care conversations.

696
00:43:00,390 --> 00:43:03,600
So, yeah, it's, but it's very challenging.

697
00:43:03,860 --> 00:43:09,400
Most families, like I think my
situations with my folks, we

698
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,029
never had the conversations.

699
00:43:11,830 --> 00:43:18,045
Weird things just happened and I
was, I was just lucky that at one

700
00:43:18,045 --> 00:43:22,705
point it came to my mind that what my
mother needed at the end, but it was

701
00:43:22,915 --> 00:43:24,955
not something that we had discussed.

702
00:43:25,585 --> 00:43:30,495
It just dawned on me, Oh my goodness, I
better call a priest because, and then,

703
00:43:30,554 --> 00:43:35,325
and it was exactly what she needed, but
I hadn't even, wasn't part of a plan.

704
00:43:35,895 --> 00:43:39,515
It was just like, Oh gosh, I think mum
would want to play a priest right now.

705
00:43:39,585 --> 00:43:42,965
And yes, in fact, it was
the best thing we could

706
00:43:42,965 --> 00:43:43,854
Nikolaus: have done for her.

707
00:43:43,855 --> 00:43:44,194
Yeah.

708
00:43:44,975 --> 00:43:45,405
Tonina: Yeah.

709
00:43:45,555 --> 00:43:45,705
So.

710
00:43:46,655 --> 00:43:48,985
Nikolaus: I think the other thing is
and I think that's why we have good you

711
00:43:48,985 --> 00:43:54,465
have your podcast Catherine is the The
topic of death as a taboo and you're

712
00:43:54,495 --> 00:43:58,025
trying to get over that a little bit
with your podcast because yeah, it's,

713
00:43:58,035 --> 00:44:03,405
it's a taboo topic in our society
and for various reasons, we could go

714
00:44:03,415 --> 00:44:06,944
like deeper into that philosophical,
theological, whatever you want to look

715
00:44:06,944 --> 00:44:11,065
at it from various perspectives, not
another topic we people like to talk

716
00:44:11,074 --> 00:44:15,364
about, even in when we're approaching or
thinking, Oh, how is that going to be?

717
00:44:15,364 --> 00:44:17,955
And because I also, I'm not
an expert in end of life care,

718
00:44:17,955 --> 00:44:19,925
that's not our key sort of area.

719
00:44:19,925 --> 00:44:22,094
And there's other organizations
like Tonina's and.

720
00:44:22,105 --> 00:44:25,505
Meaningful Aging Australia about
spirituality and that sort of thing

721
00:44:25,505 --> 00:44:27,435
as well and spiritual association.

722
00:44:28,885 --> 00:44:31,975
It's something that it's, it's a
topic that I think it's good that

723
00:44:31,985 --> 00:44:35,254
you bring to the forefront and
actually have a conversation about it.

724
00:44:35,255 --> 00:44:38,894
And it's normal part of life is
that when we, when we are born,

725
00:44:38,894 --> 00:44:40,215
we know we will one day die.

726
00:44:40,225 --> 00:44:41,525
It's impossible not to die.

727
00:44:42,145 --> 00:44:45,645
So I think it's, it's a
good conversation to have.

728
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,910
Even so it's a sensitive one and we have
to be careful with exactly what Trinia

729
00:44:49,940 --> 00:44:54,920
was saying with her mother and most
people and I think it's everyone don't

730
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:56,030
people don't want to talk about it.

731
00:44:58,565 --> 00:45:02,905
Catherine: And this is something that
neither of you can probably answer,

732
00:45:03,355 --> 00:45:09,275
but you know, I, I do, I do wonder
the, the role in spiritual leaders at

733
00:45:09,315 --> 00:45:13,384
initiating the conversations and taking
the taboo out of the topic, whether

734
00:45:13,385 --> 00:45:17,024
that can be some sort of involvement,
cultural leaders involved in that.

735
00:45:17,184 --> 00:45:20,164
Obviously, you know, if you
work very closely with different

736
00:45:20,164 --> 00:45:24,215
cultural organizations within the
community that have leaders in that

737
00:45:24,215 --> 00:45:26,575
space that obviously are acting.

738
00:45:26,815 --> 00:45:29,795
with the best intentions to
support both of your missions.

739
00:45:30,245 --> 00:45:34,365
But yeah, whether there's
a larger collective and

740
00:45:34,515 --> 00:45:36,255
involvement of spiritual leaders.

741
00:45:37,264 --> 00:45:45,974
So, um, how does culturally, what cultural
diversity impact on someone's care plan?

742
00:45:48,275 --> 00:45:53,555
Tonina: Hmm, that's quite a specific
question, because care plans are very

743
00:45:54,425 --> 00:46:01,015
individualized, and sometimes I think the
stuff about culture is a bit too esoteric

744
00:46:01,045 --> 00:46:06,025
to embody in a care plan, because I think
Care plans can be quite clinical as well,

745
00:46:06,025 --> 00:46:10,235
as well as trying to embrace all the
other stuff that's important for a person.

746
00:46:10,775 --> 00:46:14,465
But having said that, certainly in
the palliative care space or end of

747
00:46:14,465 --> 00:46:20,174
life space, a care plan may need to be
adapted to accommodate some of those

748
00:46:20,184 --> 00:46:24,660
things I was saying before around
what What expectations there are,

749
00:46:24,990 --> 00:46:30,500
particularly at the very end of life
around religious obligations or, I

750
00:46:30,500 --> 00:46:35,350
mean, I mean, quite honestly, there
are people, there are religious groups

751
00:46:35,369 --> 00:46:37,400
that don't even allow for treatments.

752
00:46:38,540 --> 00:46:39,470
at end of life.

753
00:46:39,550 --> 00:46:40,940
It's just, they're a no go.

754
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,870
So, there's your care plan.

755
00:46:44,110 --> 00:46:45,350
There is no care plan.

756
00:46:45,700 --> 00:46:48,300
It's let, let, uh, let.

757
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:54,169
One example that I've spoken about before
is, uh, with, uh, that happened, that I

758
00:46:54,169 --> 00:46:59,409
came across with the Islamic community,
where we would, we, we came up through an

759
00:46:59,410 --> 00:47:04,240
information session we were running with
an Islamic community group that was made

760
00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:10,410
up of and the conversation came up about
them, having concerns that they've got

761
00:47:10,410 --> 00:47:15,850
certain rights and rituals and obligations
at the end of life, that they're worried

762
00:47:15,860 --> 00:47:19,899
that when it comes to the crunch, they
won't be able to do in the palliative

763
00:47:19,939 --> 00:47:22,310
care context and end of life context.

764
00:47:22,950 --> 00:47:24,610
So we talked about all that.

765
00:47:24,689 --> 00:47:28,900
And one of the women's
husbands passed away.

766
00:47:29,385 --> 00:47:34,285
Not long after that session and was in
palliative care and apparently she felt

767
00:47:34,295 --> 00:47:40,114
emboldened by the conversation to be
able to speak with the care team at the

768
00:47:40,115 --> 00:47:45,474
time with the physician and the nurses
around what they needed and the fact

769
00:47:45,485 --> 00:47:52,060
that they needed the their her husband
to be more lucid for a time so that

770
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,400
he could be involved in those prayers.

771
00:47:54,930 --> 00:48:01,040
So, uh, cause one of the issues was
that quite often people are sedated

772
00:48:01,099 --> 00:48:03,309
quite heavily towards that end.

773
00:48:03,889 --> 00:48:08,620
So they were able to negotiate with the,
with the physician to bring him to a

774
00:48:08,620 --> 00:48:13,980
certain level of, of lucidity so that
he could participate in those rituals.

775
00:48:14,630 --> 00:48:21,605
And, and she, She was forever grateful
for that opportunity to, to, to, to allow

776
00:48:21,605 --> 00:48:25,895
for that to happen and which may not have
happened has she not been part of this

777
00:48:25,925 --> 00:48:31,205
conversation we've had just several weeks
earlier in her little community group.

778
00:48:31,625 --> 00:48:34,655
So, so there, there's a
care plan that's had to be.

779
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:36,820
Modified to allow for that.

780
00:48:37,980 --> 00:48:38,770
Catherine: That's fantastic.

781
00:48:38,780 --> 00:48:44,920
That's a great example, and I heard one
a few months ago whereby It was very

782
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:49,680
important from a spiritual perspective
that this person when they were dying

783
00:48:50,870 --> 00:48:54,990
Felt like they wanted to have their their
soul Their belief was that they wanted to

784
00:48:54,990 --> 00:48:59,180
have their soul Released and they felt the
only way in which they could do that was

785
00:48:59,220 --> 00:49:05,350
through being outside Being outside wasn't
open that wasn't a possibility and But it

786
00:49:05,350 --> 00:49:07,280
was just enough to have the window open.

787
00:49:07,490 --> 00:49:11,590
So having those conversations and
like you were saying is that if you

788
00:49:11,590 --> 00:49:15,730
just have the conversation and there
can be a solution and it can be very

789
00:49:15,730 --> 00:49:22,550
simple as opening a window or changing
the medication and when that's timed.

790
00:49:22,589 --> 00:49:23,989
So that's, that's beautiful.

791
00:49:23,999 --> 00:49:24,639
Thank you.

792
00:49:25,349 --> 00:49:31,235
And So we've talked on from, uh, we've
gone quite, quite a few different

793
00:49:31,235 --> 00:49:35,674
places, but one, one place that I'd
like to, to talk about now is, is

794
00:49:35,674 --> 00:49:40,045
the training that you were mentioning
earlier, Nicky, the mentoring program.

795
00:49:40,084 --> 00:49:44,924
It sounds like that sort of, uh,
organizations identify a champion to

796
00:49:44,924 --> 00:49:47,955
come and do training with you and then
bring it back to the organization.

797
00:49:47,955 --> 00:49:48,955
Is that what happens?

798
00:49:48,955 --> 00:49:50,084
Yeah.

799
00:49:50,665 --> 00:49:54,585
Nikolaus: So basically organizations,
the diversity mentoring program,

800
00:49:54,595 --> 00:49:56,615
they apply to be part of the program.

801
00:49:57,330 --> 00:50:02,700
Then we assess the applications and
then we allocate who is, which are,

802
00:50:02,700 --> 00:50:05,659
because we have, we have a number of
other organizations who will train

803
00:50:05,659 --> 00:50:08,839
which organization depending on what
state or territory they're from.

804
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:12,620
And then they go through programs where at
the beginning they do an assessment, the

805
00:50:12,620 --> 00:50:17,195
cultural assessment through the, Inclusive
service standards and they get four to

806
00:50:17,195 --> 00:50:21,815
five sessions around leadership and how
leadership changed organizational change.

807
00:50:21,845 --> 00:50:25,075
And then at the end, we do another
assessment and in terms of how they're

808
00:50:25,145 --> 00:50:28,755
faring against or assessing against
the inclusive service standards.

809
00:50:28,954 --> 00:50:31,455
So that's basically a
nutshell how that works.

810
00:50:33,345 --> 00:50:37,775
It's a fairly new program around two
years, so it's still, in a way it's a

811
00:50:37,775 --> 00:50:41,735
pilot, not pilot, but we haven't, it's not
across the whole country, I should say.

812
00:50:42,215 --> 00:50:44,185
And yeah, so that's what they get.

813
00:50:44,185 --> 00:50:48,114
They get a session for one hour
where things are discussed, where

814
00:50:48,114 --> 00:50:51,005
they have opportunity to ask
questions, to reflect a little bit

815
00:50:51,005 --> 00:50:53,145
as well, what, how they're going.

816
00:50:53,575 --> 00:50:56,345
So at the end of the day, we're also
thinking at the moment of doing a

817
00:50:56,345 --> 00:51:00,105
little, having a bit more lighter touch
to it, having more like conversation.

818
00:51:00,424 --> 00:51:01,385
So we're trying to take.

819
00:51:01,595 --> 00:51:06,155
away than a sort of fear from people
that this is going to be very serious

820
00:51:06,155 --> 00:51:09,415
or they're having just the statistics
or the facts is having just actually

821
00:51:09,415 --> 00:51:12,044
just having a conversation where they
have that option if they want the

822
00:51:12,044 --> 00:51:15,735
presentation that's fine but if they
want just having a conversation they

823
00:51:15,735 --> 00:51:19,984
can also have that so that's you know
what's what will be happening what's

824
00:51:19,984 --> 00:51:23,975
happening actually it's organization
who want to do it Because if they

825
00:51:24,225 --> 00:51:27,455
didn't want to do it, you know, we don't
get them because they wouldn't apply.

826
00:51:27,875 --> 00:51:29,115
That's always a conversation.

827
00:51:29,115 --> 00:51:31,545
How do you get organizations
that are not doing it?

828
00:51:32,015 --> 00:51:36,665
That's a whole other conversation to
have because we're not necessarily

829
00:51:36,715 --> 00:51:40,814
reaching the ones that should do it,
but because there's no compliance in

830
00:51:40,814 --> 00:51:42,389
aged care that you have to do that.

831
00:51:43,070 --> 00:51:47,640
So it's really optional or if there's
a focus of the community or the

832
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:51,610
organization, if they think that's good
for their branding, their marketing

833
00:51:51,620 --> 00:51:55,810
to get more clients, whatever it
is, that's, that's the reason why

834
00:51:55,850 --> 00:52:00,049
not everyone necessarily does it
or doesn't want to do it because

835
00:52:00,049 --> 00:52:01,799
they say it's not like their focus.

836
00:52:01,799 --> 00:52:05,190
It's not what is what, what they're.

837
00:52:05,730 --> 00:52:07,700
Not necessarily in line
with what they want to do.

838
00:52:07,700 --> 00:52:11,620
And, but at the same time, most
organizations that would have some

839
00:52:11,630 --> 00:52:15,920
sort of diversity in terms of their
seniors when it comes to aged care.

840
00:52:16,549 --> 00:52:19,669
But yeah, so that's just
every organization has a

841
00:52:19,669 --> 00:52:21,809
different, I guess, focus.

842
00:52:21,890 --> 00:52:25,679
And that's why not everyone
does training and there's other

843
00:52:25,689 --> 00:52:29,180
organizations training as well,
like open does diversity training.

844
00:52:29,250 --> 00:52:31,360
There's LGBTIQ plus health.

845
00:52:31,855 --> 00:52:36,105
There's similar training, then there's the
Rainbow Tick for organizations to apply

846
00:52:36,105 --> 00:52:40,884
for to demonstrate that they're delivering
inclusive care for gender diverse people.

847
00:52:40,915 --> 00:52:45,004
So there's all sorts of different
trainings, but yeah, one focuses

848
00:52:45,035 --> 00:52:46,665
more on cultural inclusion.

849
00:52:50,205 --> 00:52:54,755
Catherine: And it seems to me from
what you've both said, is it's very

850
00:52:54,795 --> 00:53:00,775
clear that if we need change to happen,
it needs to be written at a state or

851
00:53:00,775 --> 00:53:03,775
federal level in the, the guidelines.

852
00:53:04,005 --> 00:53:04,705
So then it's.

853
00:53:05,315 --> 00:53:07,875
adhered to all the way down.

854
00:53:08,885 --> 00:53:10,265
Would that be fair to say?

855
00:53:11,445 --> 00:53:17,775
Tonina: Yeah, and I think it's taken,
look, years and years of advocacy over,

856
00:53:17,995 --> 00:53:26,354
over several decades really to, to get
some of those, those pieces of the puzzle

857
00:53:26,355 --> 00:53:31,515
together in terms of the big, the big
standards and, and the, the national.

858
00:53:31,970 --> 00:53:37,080
frameworks, and it's, they've
been slow to come, but they've

859
00:53:37,150 --> 00:53:38,580
eventually, they're coming.

860
00:53:38,580 --> 00:53:42,690
And, and I think I can speak for the
palliative care standards that I think are

861
00:53:42,699 --> 00:53:45,590
really, really do a good job of, of that.

862
00:53:45,790 --> 00:53:49,710
And I think the new age, well, the old
age care standards are pretty good too.

863
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:54,260
Like the second, the most recent, the ones
before that were a little, a little less.

864
00:53:54,495 --> 00:53:59,325
inclusive, but the, the ones
we're moving away from, uh,

865
00:53:59,325 --> 00:54:00,905
we're pretty, we're pretty good.

866
00:54:00,955 --> 00:54:03,364
And I think these new
standards are even better.

867
00:54:03,415 --> 00:54:04,554
So there's an evolution.

868
00:54:04,555 --> 00:54:07,045
You can see the evolution around it.

869
00:54:07,095 --> 00:54:13,404
And this is an ever changing field, an
ever changing, evolving conversation.

870
00:54:13,475 --> 00:54:17,115
And what we talked about
20 years ago has changed.

871
00:54:17,795 --> 00:54:18,775
Some of it hasn't.

872
00:54:18,825 --> 00:54:21,025
Unfortunately, we're
still talking about food.

873
00:54:22,285 --> 00:54:23,725
And some of the basics.

874
00:54:23,725 --> 00:54:24,475
But anyway,

875
00:54:24,475 --> 00:54:25,195
Catherine: sorry, that was me.

876
00:54:25,330 --> 00:54:25,550
No,

877
00:54:25,555 --> 00:54:25,825
Tonina: no, no.

878
00:54:25,825 --> 00:54:26,785
But it's the same.

879
00:54:26,785 --> 00:54:30,175
It's what I'm saying is a lot of
the basics are still the same, but

880
00:54:30,175 --> 00:54:30,745
Catherine: yeah.

881
00:54:30,895 --> 00:54:34,675
Tonina: But those frameworks I think
are, are getting there are much closer

882
00:54:34,675 --> 00:54:37,415
to where we are hoping we need to be.

883
00:54:37,415 --> 00:54:39,095
Is that what you think too, Nikki?

884
00:54:39,245 --> 00:54:39,455
Nikolaus: Yeah.

885
00:54:39,455 --> 00:54:42,635
I just wanna add to ex to additional
what you're saying, just to have

886
00:54:42,635 --> 00:54:47,075
some complimentary things to say, is
that I think Australia came out of

887
00:54:47,105 --> 00:54:50,555
Assimilationist policies just in the
seventies, early seventies, and then.

888
00:54:51,005 --> 00:54:54,925
You know, multiculturalism was embraced,
but even today we have people who

889
00:54:54,925 --> 00:54:56,805
are questioning for various reasons.

890
00:54:56,875 --> 00:55:01,455
They're questioning multiculturalism
and us being a multicultural nation.

891
00:55:01,455 --> 00:55:03,974
I don't want to go into my too
much detail to, but you probably

892
00:55:03,975 --> 00:55:05,815
know what, what I'm referring to.

893
00:55:06,004 --> 00:55:08,364
So I think there's sometimes
there's a little bit of a concept

894
00:55:08,404 --> 00:55:10,225
of why do we need to do this?

895
00:55:10,695 --> 00:55:16,335
Because there's sometimes we have a less
inclusive or even assimilationist mindset,

896
00:55:16,825 --> 00:55:19,005
which is a reality that we are living in.

897
00:55:19,975 --> 00:55:24,205
But with, in terms of the positives,
what Tronino was saying is that the

898
00:55:24,215 --> 00:55:28,285
quality standards, especially standard,
new standard one, is very much focused

899
00:55:28,285 --> 00:55:30,785
around the person's diverse needs.

900
00:55:31,285 --> 00:55:36,024
Also, for the first time after following
the multicultural framework review,

901
00:55:36,384 --> 00:55:39,635
we have a multicultural aged care unit
within the Department of Health and Aged

902
00:55:39,635 --> 00:55:41,115
Care that had never been there before.

903
00:55:41,405 --> 00:55:42,195
It just starting.

904
00:55:42,195 --> 00:55:44,755
So I don't know exactly yet what
they are doing, but they are

905
00:55:44,755 --> 00:55:47,965
something that's something that
we are looking to look out for.

906
00:55:48,545 --> 00:55:52,655
And then in terms of at a macro level,
we had the diversity strategy in 2017.

907
00:55:52,655 --> 00:55:56,414
And that's likely, I think, going
to be updated with the new standards

908
00:55:56,414 --> 00:55:58,365
with the new HK act kicking in.

909
00:55:58,794 --> 00:56:03,165
Obviously we were probably more in
favor as the PCAG Alliance for more.

910
00:56:03,490 --> 00:56:07,140
specific, more targeted
approach that's more responsive

911
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:09,130
of, of culturally diversity.

912
00:56:09,130 --> 00:56:13,060
I don't know if that will happen, but I
just want to say with a positive note,

913
00:56:13,449 --> 00:56:17,550
I don't, I'm not aware of the PICA
program or something similar existing

914
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:19,249
in any other country around the world.

915
00:56:19,250 --> 00:56:23,739
I think it's a very unique program
so that the government clearly has an

916
00:56:23,739 --> 00:56:27,749
investment, a commitment to culture
diversity in aged care, which is something

917
00:56:27,749 --> 00:56:32,560
that Probably most governments around
the world are not investing that's

918
00:56:32,700 --> 00:56:37,850
that amount of resources and support
as the Australian Department so I think

919
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,999
government of health Department of Health
and Aging I think that's something very

920
00:56:40,999 --> 00:56:44,650
positive and I'm always conscious of
because if I look at other countries,

921
00:56:44,650 --> 00:56:48,969
I don't see anything similar coming out
So I think we have that in Australia,

922
00:56:49,029 --> 00:56:52,200
which we can be very very happy about.

923
00:56:52,330 --> 00:56:55,490
I mean, I agree with, with everybody
in the sector, there's more we

924
00:56:55,490 --> 00:56:59,579
can do, but actually having such
a program is something that it

925
00:56:59,590 --> 00:57:01,180
gives us somewhere to start.

926
00:57:02,390 --> 00:57:02,570
And

927
00:57:02,570 --> 00:57:06,500
Tonina: it's worth adding to that, Nicky,
that it's not just the last few years

928
00:57:06,500 --> 00:57:08,029
that they've been funding this project.

929
00:57:08,030 --> 00:57:11,309
This project is, has been
funded for about 30 years.

930
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,080
So the one that Nicky is talking about.

931
00:57:14,100 --> 00:57:19,300
So it's been a long term commitment
that has evolved over those years,

932
00:57:19,350 --> 00:57:21,779
but still is, is pretty impressive.

933
00:57:22,205 --> 00:57:23,365
When you look at it that way.

934
00:57:25,375 --> 00:57:28,445
Catherine: That's a great way, I think,
that both of you have just summed up

935
00:57:28,865 --> 00:57:35,064
from an organisational perspective
and a policy perspective of where

936
00:57:35,115 --> 00:57:36,845
we have been and where we are going.

937
00:57:36,845 --> 00:57:41,025
I think that, obviously, that sounds
very positive, the things that we

938
00:57:41,704 --> 00:57:45,805
see that have changed over periods
of time, which is great to know.

939
00:57:46,365 --> 00:57:49,975
What do you recommend, and you've
given some examples, Tonina,

940
00:57:49,975 --> 00:57:52,414
about what can the individual do?

941
00:57:53,510 --> 00:57:57,420
When they have someone in an aged care
facility that they, a loved one that they

942
00:57:57,420 --> 00:58:02,960
care for or if that is the person going
into aged care or palliative care setting,

943
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:07,449
what is something that the individual can
do or the family of the loved one can do?

944
00:58:07,940 --> 00:58:11,109
Tonina: Look, there's just,
there really is no excuse now

945
00:58:11,109 --> 00:58:13,130
for not knowing stuff, honestly.

946
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:14,780
There is so much.

947
00:58:15,555 --> 00:58:16,035
out there.

948
00:58:16,135 --> 00:58:17,935
There are so many resources.

949
00:58:17,935 --> 00:58:20,555
There are so many people who've
done the hard yards, who've

950
00:58:20,555 --> 00:58:24,805
done the research, who've been
developing resources for decades.

951
00:58:24,875 --> 00:58:30,105
And really, if you, if you need
information, it's at your fingertips now,

952
00:58:30,375 --> 00:58:33,025
quite honestly, on anything, as we know.

953
00:58:33,134 --> 00:58:37,445
The, there's translated materials
about Pretty much everything.

954
00:58:37,655 --> 00:58:40,915
And there's a site called Health
Translations in Victoria that's

955
00:58:40,915 --> 00:58:43,855
funded through the Centre for
Culture, Ethnicity and Health.

956
00:58:44,405 --> 00:58:50,255
And every imaginable translation in the
health sector is sitting on this website.

957
00:58:50,465 --> 00:58:54,624
So you can literally go there, jump
on it and download what you need.

958
00:58:55,175 --> 00:58:56,495
And we'll link to that as well.

959
00:58:56,955 --> 00:58:57,705
Fantastic.

960
00:58:57,735 --> 00:59:01,685
And so I think there are
webinars coming out of our ears.

961
00:59:01,715 --> 00:59:08,215
There's all sorts of opportunities
to engage with peaks, with, with

962
00:59:08,215 --> 00:59:13,705
organisations in the sector, like the
Centre for Cultural Diversity and Ageing,

963
00:59:14,214 --> 00:59:16,305
where even just as a starting point.

964
00:59:16,510 --> 00:59:20,600
imagine having a quick phone call
with Nikki and, and where the

965
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:22,220
options that are open to you.

966
00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:26,570
So I think it's really just about
having the right intention and,

967
00:59:26,580 --> 00:59:31,600
and really wanting to learn because
there's no lack of resources to

968
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:33,690
tap into as far as I can see.

969
00:59:35,810 --> 00:59:39,710
Nikolaus: I just want to add to that,
that be the change you want to see in this

970
00:59:39,710 --> 00:59:44,230
world or in the aged care sector, wherever
you are, because I think everyone.

971
00:59:44,705 --> 00:59:49,835
can make a change, whether it's a
manager or a care worker or a family

972
00:59:49,835 --> 00:59:52,585
member, and we can all make a difference.

973
00:59:52,755 --> 00:59:57,595
So I think we need to start with us to
actually help to improve the system.

974
00:59:58,015 --> 01:00:02,145
And if there's any questions or any
worries, or you're maybe afraid of

975
01:00:02,175 --> 01:00:06,285
doing it, this organization can help
you through like, for example, mentoring

976
01:00:06,305 --> 01:00:11,965
programs, diversity consultants, experts,
peak bodies, who can make it happen.

977
01:00:12,265 --> 01:00:15,925
So don't be afraid because I know
for some organ, it can be a little

978
01:00:15,925 --> 01:00:18,435
bit overwhelming, they don't know
where to start and how to do it.

979
01:00:18,935 --> 01:00:22,415
But luckily we have that support
in Australia that has specialized

980
01:00:22,415 --> 01:00:26,325
organizations that we still need
because we're not in an ideal world

981
01:00:26,325 --> 01:00:28,455
yet to help with that support.

982
01:00:28,495 --> 01:00:32,955
And then on a family or personal level,
I think anyone can make a difference.

983
01:00:33,555 --> 01:00:36,695
And what, what Tonina was saying
before, we need to walk the talk.

984
01:00:36,695 --> 01:00:40,945
So how can we do that in our family,
our community, in our organization,

985
01:00:41,675 --> 01:00:44,095
because it's always easier to
say what other people need to

986
01:00:44,095 --> 01:00:45,805
do than what we all need to do.

987
01:00:46,415 --> 01:00:46,945
Catherine: Yeah.

988
01:00:47,065 --> 01:00:47,355
Yeah.

989
01:00:47,735 --> 01:00:49,845
And, and the change can
really start with us.

990
01:00:49,855 --> 01:00:53,625
And I think that's a beautiful way
to, to end our conversation today.

991
01:00:53,625 --> 01:00:55,215
Thank you so much for joining us.

992
01:00:55,685 --> 01:00:56,675
Thanks for having us.

993
01:00:56,685 --> 01:00:57,205
It's been great.

994
01:00:58,235 --> 01:00:58,775
Thank you.

995
01:00:59,765 --> 01:01:01,175
Nikolaus: Thank you for the opportunity.

996
01:01:03,375 --> 01:01:06,805
Catherine: We hope you enjoyed today's
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997
01:01:07,115 --> 01:01:08,705
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998
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