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About this episode
Ever wondered what legal documents you need to have in place before you die? Or how to handle your assets and loved ones when the inevitable happens? In this episode of "Don't Be Caught Dead," I'm joined by Greg Russo, one of Victoria's most experienced and respected succession law solicitors. Greg shares his journey into law, driven by a love for maths and logic, and how he found his passion in succession law—a field where numbers meet human stories.
We dive deep into the essentials of succession law, discussing everything from wills and superannuation nominations to powers of attorney and advanced care directives. Greg explains the importance of having the right documents in place to ensure your assets are managed and your loved ones are cared for when you're no longer able to do so. He also sheds light on how to plan for your financial future and the guardianship of your children if you die or become incapacitated.
Get ready to learn about the nitty-gritty of succession law in a way that's clear, engaging, and relatable. Greg's insights will not only help you understand the legal landscape better but also empower you to make informed decisions about your future.
Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine
Show notes
Guest Bio
![Podcast Guest - Image](https://criticalinfo.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/©WillowCreative_Russo_1S4A9348.jpg)
Victoria’s Leading Succession Law Specialist
With over 30 years experience in succession law Greg Russo is one of Victoria’s most experienced and respected succession law solicitors.
Greg is an LIV Wills & Estates Accredited Specialist, a chairperson of the LIV Specialist Accreditation Education Advisory Committee, the LIV Wills & Estates Advisory Committee, a board member of the Mount Eliza Community Bank, a member of STEP and is recognised in Doyles Guide in Victoria as a Leading Wills Estates and Litigation Lawyer and a Leading Wills, Estates and Succession Planning Lawyer.
Summary
Key Highlights:
- Understanding the importance of wills and superannuation nominations
- The role of powers of attorney and advanced care directives
- Planning for the guardianship and financial future of your children
- Insights into managing your business and personal assets after death or incapacitation
Transcript
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Being reminded every single day about mortality, I am drafting wills,
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I'm doing deathbed wills, I'm administering someone's estate.
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Just constantly being reminded about mortality has become incredibly life-affirming
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because it's a reminder that it' ... Read More
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Being reminded every single day about mortality, I am drafting wills,
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I'm doing deathbed wills, I'm administering someone's estate.
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Just constantly being reminded about mortality has become incredibly life-affirming
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because it's a reminder that it's all going to end one day and who knows when
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and who knows how long we've got.
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And so for me, it's just an absolute no-brainer and it's not that hard to make provision for that.
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A lot of people that don't do the job that I've got that don't have the luxury
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of being reminded every day about mortality is just a refusal to accept that.
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And it's not a criticism. There's no vague judgments in that observation.
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But you ask most people just to start talking about death, and they're just not comfortable.
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We're not comfortable having the conversation about ourselves, about not being here.
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And, you know, of course, we worry about our kids, and we just can't face it, can we?
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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging open conversations about
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dying and the death of a loved one.
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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to
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bring your stories of death back to life.
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Because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared.
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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges the lands of the Kulin Nations and recognises
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their connection to land, sea and community.
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We pay our respects to their elders, past, present and emerging and extend that
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respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe.
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Today we are speaking with Greg Russo, one of Victoria's most experienced and
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respected succession law solicitors.
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I had the privilege of meeting Greg earlier this year when I had the idea to
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put together a guide, what to do when your loved one dies.
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So I reached out to Greg because I
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needed someone to make sure it was
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accurate with its legal content and so I didn't get in trouble so since then
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I have had quite a few occasions where people have come up to me and asked what
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are the legal ramifications of this question or that question So,
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I thought we would get Greg back on the show for the first time to actually
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answer some of your questions.
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Welcome to the show, Greg. Thanks, Catherine. Great to be here.
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Thanks for inviting me on.
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So tell me, how did you get involved in law?
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That's a good question. It's got a short answer and a long answer.
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I'll give you the short answer.
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I was a very good student at school and I had a father who was very keen for
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me to do medicine or law or engineering, which he saw as, you know,
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would set me up very well.
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And I just love maths. I love numbers and maths and logic. And I negotiated
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with him. And he said, let's, you know, I want you to do medicine.
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Why don't we look at that?
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And we argued about that. and I kept coming back. I just want to do science. I want to do numbers.
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I want to learn about maths. So, in the end, I read a lot as well as having a love for maths.
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So, he and I struck a deal. He said, do science and law and if you don't like
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law, you can drop it. So, that's how I ended up starting the law degree.
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I think with a lot of people, maybe of my generation, we weren't exactly sure what we wanted to do.
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So, I finished the law degree because I started it and then I started working
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in the law for a couple of years and then I was going to go and do a PhD in
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maths, but it kind of got me interested and I kept learning new things.
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And it was about 15 years ago that I started working exclusively in this area
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that we're going to talk about today, succession.
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And it's the one area of the law where a lot of the logic and the maths and
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the numbers comes into play.
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You have to be very good with understanding the consequences of finances and tax.
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It's an area where there's a lot of old law, so we still quote cases from the
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16th and the 17th and the 18th century, but it's one where you have to keep absolutely up to date.
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And on top of all of that, there's a real human element to it.
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Your guide is a kind of a guide which is robust in the information it gives,
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but it's designed, as I understand it, and certainly having worked on it with
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you, that it's meant to be a very pragmatic document for people at a time when
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when they're at a very low ebb, when they're about to or they've just suffered a tragedy.
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So the same with me. It's a real privilege for me to be able to be there for
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people at what is a really bad time in their life and to kind of just be the
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objective, rational person, say, yes, okay, this is what you need to do.
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This is how you do it. And this is the process. I really take that as an absolute
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privilege. So that's the short version.
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Well, that makes sense because from where I sit as the host of this show,
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I've heard many stories about the emotions associated when someone dies and
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just how vulnerable people are.
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And to be an expert that someone can trust and look to for guidance and support
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at that time is really, really valuable.
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No, it's great to be able to do. Yep.
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So, let's launch into some of the questions that we've received.
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Looking at legal documents that we should have in place prior to death,
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what are the important documents that we should have and why are they important? Yeah.
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So it's a really good starting point. And so what you have to think about is
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death from a succession perspective is about change of ownership or change of control. So I'm alive.
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I own my car. When I pass away, what's going to happen to the ownership of my car?
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I'm alive I'm a member of a super fund when
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I die or lose capacity what happens to my
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super fund member balance what happens to the running of the fund I'm
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running a business I die or lose capacity what's going to
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happen so the answer to the question is what documents you need is the answer
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to that question is what documents do you need in order to continue the ownership
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of assets while you're incapacitated and in order to transfer the ownership
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or control of assets that's after you pass away.
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So, you definitely need a will to deal with things that you own.
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You need super nominations to deal with super because you don't actually own your super.
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That's another session, but you need super nominations to deal with your super.
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You need to have made arrangements in relation to your business.
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People often enter into business succession plans and you need to have made
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arrangements in relation to trusts.
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They all cover the circumstances about what happens when you die and then sort
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of mirrored to that if you're covering also what's going to happen if you were
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to lose capacity the ability to make decisions there's a whole another set of
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documents which mirror those that we generally refer to as powers of attorney.
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Guardianship documents depending on what state you're in powers of attorney
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guardianship documents advanced care directives medical treatment plans things
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like that so you need wills and those sort of documents and you need powers
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of attorney and those sort of documents.
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So, just to make it clear in my head, if I had a child who was under the age
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of 18 and if I was to become incapacitated or die, what would I need in return for them?
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Okay, so what wills and powers of attorney are really good at dealing with is assets and ownership.
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Guardianship what they're not so good at dealing with is the
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care of children under the age of 18 after your
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passing or after your inability to care for them the the
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the care of children after 18 from a guardianship perspective is generally dealt
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with in the family court or the children's court depending on what what what
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what jurisdiction you're in but you certainly can in your will you can express
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a desire you can say look uh if i was to pass away and there's no other guardian in my son, Bob.
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It's my desire that my sister and brother-in-law or whoever it is would be his
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testamentary guardian.
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So you can certainly make a recommendation and the court would look at that
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if it was asked to and say, well, here's the person that loved Bob the most
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in the world and they recommend that such and such and such and such be appointed
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his guardian. And that probably won't be countermanded.
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The other thing you can do in wills is you can look after Bob's financial future
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by creating trusts and things like that.
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So, you can allocate money, but that's sort of separate.
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That's under a will, an executor looking after Bob's financial interest because
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Bob, while he's under 18, can't give a receipt.
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So, he can't receive any money from your estate until he turns 18 as a minimum.
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So, with these sort of documents, you can make recommendations and express a
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desire about guardianship and you can put in place testamentary trust and financial
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care. And you can do those across both documents.
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Okay, that's good to know. And tell me, there was also documents you mentioned
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like powers of attorney, advanced care directive, advanced plan.
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Could you just sort of give us an example with those?
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I know it's quite complex, but as best as you can.
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Yep, yep. So, what you learn once you start digging below the surface is that
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the word capacity is just this group word that from a legal perspective covers
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a lot of different types of capacity.
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So there's capacity to do a will, there's capacity to make financial decisions,
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there's capacity to make medical decisions.
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You know, if you need to have an operation on your foot, you have to make informed,
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you have to give informed consent to the doctor, you have to have capacity to
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make medical decisions to do that. All right. So if you ever die.
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Wills come into effect and other you know things like binding
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death nominations if you lose so so
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if if if you've got capacity and you're alive you
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make your own medical decisions make your own financial decisions look after
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your own kids if there's that period of time between being mentally competent
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and alive and not being here anymore if you lose one or other of your capacities
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and you could lose one you could lose the inner you could lose the ability to
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make financial decisions,
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but still be really clear about what you want medically.
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If you lose one or other of your capacities, there are mechanisms that you can
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put in place while you've got capacity or that can be put in place for you after
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you lose capacity that can allow a substituted decision maker to make decisions for you.
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So, a power of attorney, as that term is generally understood,
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generally refers to financial decision-making authority.
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So, if I appointed you, Catherine, to be my attorney under a power of attorney
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to make financial decisions subject to the terms.
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If I then lost capacity, you would step into my shoes and make financial decisions for me.
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And then there's this whole family of documents that you can use to assist in
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your medical care at a time when you might not be able to express a desire to
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communicate or have capacity to make decisions.
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Depending on what state you're in, you might be doing a medical treatment decision -maker appointment.
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You might be doing a medical power of attorney. You might be doing an advanced
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care plan or an advanced care document of some sort.
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And ultimately, you might be doing documents to assist with the voluntary assisted
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dying process, which is also available in each state.
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So, those suite of documents, in different ways,
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are a way of you, while you're competent, setting in mechanisms and appointing
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people to sign off written consent for operations and other medical procedures, dental procedures,
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but also in appropriate circumstances to make an end of life decision for you.
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And so those advanced care plans talk about things that you would like to happen.
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I would like to be able to experience a particular religious service once a
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week, or I don't want my brother to come and visit me, things like that,
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things that you can express a desire about, but also you can put in stipulations.
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You can say, I am not to have have blood transfusions. I'm not to receive chemotherapy.
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You can put out black areas where if those procedures are then undertaken would constitute an assault.
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So with those documents, you can achieve a degree of future autonomy at a time
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when you have lost decision making capacity.
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Generally state by state, so you need to sort of look carefully at which state
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you're in and what the relevant legislation says.
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And so the first thing that comes to mind for me is about resuscitation as well.
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That would be covered under that suite of documents, wouldn't it?
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Yeah, there are some states have specific rules about that and specific forms,
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you know, not to be, because it's such a common one. It's a great one to raise.
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Tick, I do not want to be resuscitated. And I guess the other thing to say here
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is this, it's always a good idea to not be paranoid about this,
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but to think about your own circumstances and to put as many checks and balances in place.
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Because what you want to do is you want to remove the necessity for judgment
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calls to be made by the medical profession, if possible, because some doctors
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and some nurses and some health providers are fantastic.
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Others are not so, and it's a bit of a luck of the draw. So the more directions
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you give, I do not want to be resuscitated.
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I do not want to be kept on life support if that's what you want.
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The more directions you can give that are on your medical file,
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the easier it is for the medical staff to respect your wishes.
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And that would also help for organ donation, wouldn't it?
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Yeah, organ donation is a little bit tricky.
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So you almost have to have a tattoo, I reckon, saying I'm an organ donor,
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because it's just a practical problem that if it's important for you that you're
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able to donate your organs,
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then you need to make sure that medical staff are aware of that so that there
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is a pre-death communication about that.
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And sometimes people die in circumstances where it's not clear.
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There can be an organ donor card that can be kept in a wallet and there can
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be a search done, but it's a bit hit and miss.
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Bottom line is if there is no positive understanding that you are an organ donor,
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your organs won't be donated and it might not be learned until there's a meeting
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with the family sometime after death, at which time it might be too late.
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So, it's important, I think, if you do want to donate your organs,
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that there are processes for you to sign up and to register,
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and then that you notify as many people, your GP, your specialist,
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your family members, anyone that's likely to be involved,
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with your passing, and notify them that, make sure you tell people that I want
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to donate my organs, because otherwise, it might be an opportunity lost.
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I think what I hear with stories being told to me is that whatever our wishes seem to be,
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it's always good to have conversations about them because sometimes those assumptions
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can vary according to family member as well.
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Oh, absolutely. People want to do what they think is right, but the clearer you make it, the better.
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My father passed away three or four years ago, and he was very clear about what
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he wanted. And even though it was a pretty tough decision to make,
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we had the knowledge that this was okay.
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This is what he wanted. This was something that he would have consented to and
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he would have, you know, he would have allowed it.
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It was almost like he was sitting there going, yeah, it's all good. That's fine.
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At a time when he could no longer communicate.
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The other thing to say about that, Catherine, is as many conversations as possible
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is important because at the end of the day, the medical profession is as much
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a vocation as a profession. People that go into and stay in the medical profession
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are there because they love the work.
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And the clearer you can be about what your expectations and wishes are,
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the more readily they'll be able to enforce those and the more readily they'll want to.
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You know, if I've got a client who's really clear about what's something that
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they want, I mean, it just really makes an impression on me.
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And it's the same with the medical profession. Yeah.
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So, yeah, bang a loud, ring a loud bell. Yeah, I totally agree with you.
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Now, next of kin, that always seems to me to be quite a tricky one because the
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definition depends on what states.
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Can you talk a little bit about next of kin, what it means and what those implications are?
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Yeah, it's a really good example to just sort of reinforce that point that you
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and I have already made individually about having a good think about these things
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and putting checks and balances and protocols in place.
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The next of kin is, at its fundamental, is just a fallback position.
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The law operates on the basis of presumptions, you know, presumption of innocence,
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presumption of, you know, whether a will's been destroyed or not,
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and a presumption as to who the person should be talking on your behalf when
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you can no longer speak or communicate.
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And that's your next of kin. And it does vary from state to state.
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It's usually the spouse.
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In the absence of a spouse, it's usually the oldest child, a parent if there
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are no children, a sibling.
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And it's worked out based on proximity on a family tree.
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The next of kin is generally supplanted if you nominate an attorney,
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if you nominate a medical treatment decision maker, if you nominate an executor.
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But if you don't have one or other of those people, then the next of kin will
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be asked to come in and make a decision.
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And that might be okay if there's an intersection between who they are and who
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the best person to make the decision is, but often that's not the case.
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So, if for no other reason than having the right decision maker making these
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hard decisions for you, these sort of documents that we've been talking about
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are absolutely essential.
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I suppose the first thing that comes to my mind is the amount of blended families
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we have nowadays, and sometimes the conventional structure of next of kin may not be appropriate.
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Yeah, no, that's a really good point that the next of kin formula was created
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at a time when blended families just didn't exist, I think.
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So yeah, quite often the second spouse and the siblings will be in violent disagreement.
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And of course, what that does is it sometimes exacerbates a conflict that already
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exists, but often it creates a conflict that otherwise didn't exist.
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Exist and so yeah and if I'm in
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a blended family and I'm being sensible and pragmatic about it
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I might recognize that my partner may have
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different views than my son and you
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know what if I'm pragmatic and sensible I'm going to sit
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down with the two of them and say right you know I'm
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not going to be here forever I've had some bad news what are we going to do
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about my burial what are we going to do about this what are we going to do about
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that and to put it all on the table because a lot of these disputes that occur
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during incapacity or after death death have to do with what it is presumed I
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would have wanted if I was still alive.
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And the best way of addressing that is to talk about it while you still can.
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And resolve those disputes before they arise. Yeah.
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And I'm assuming you've seen quite a bad scenario or quite a few if they're
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arriving at your office that there might have been disputes where you just can't
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come to an amicable solution.
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Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a horrible observation, but to a degree it's my bread
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and butter that we do, you know, one of the cornerstones of my practice for
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the last 15 years has been negotiating.
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Litigating and trying to resolve estate disputes. And of course, an estate dispute,
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whether it's over, you know, the burial of a body or the disposal of a body
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or the distribution of an estate or something that seems quite bizarre and quite
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discreet, whatever it's about,
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an estate dispute is, it's a horrible dispute and it's a really hard dispute
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to run because it's like watching a movie where you've scrubbed out the main
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character or reading a play and all the lines of the main characters because
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the main character's not there.
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If it's a dispute about me, there's everyone saying what Greg would have wanted,
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what Greg would have wanted, but I'm not there.
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And so it's just layer on layer of hearsay. So yeah, very, very challenging, very tough.
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And the more direction and the more communication you can have whenever,
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as early as possible, but certainly towards an end of life situation,
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the more pragmatic you can be about what will happen.
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I'm not going to live forever, so what will happen next year when I'm no longer around.
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These are the things that are important to me. These are my expectations.
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And I know the two of you don't get on, so let's sort it out now.
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You know, the more discussion you can have, the better.
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And then you back that up with some really solid documents that give authorities
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that can't be countermanded.
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And you're not relying on an archaic formula of next of kin that was designed,
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you know, a hundred years ago.
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And that's bringing me to my next point and you know how early should we be
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planning for this what at what age should we be riding a wheel.
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Oh, I'm a will writer. So you should write a will as early as possible and you
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should update it every year.
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No, I think, look, I think it's about, I mean, it makes sense to have a will.
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A lot of people think they don't need one.
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If you don't have a will, there's a formula, an intestacy formula,
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but nobody has any authority to do anything for you until a court orders it.
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Whereas if you have a will, the will speaks from the date of death.
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It comes alive, it appoints an executive and it starts organizing things.
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So even if you've got a very basic will, for adults that don't have family,
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that don't have a partner and children, just a will that says,
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I appoint my parents as my executors and my beneficiaries, or I give everything to charity, whatever.
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A very basic will. There should be something in place, I think.
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And then you'd look at reviewing it and updating it. Anytime there's a significant
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life event, like a marriage, a marriage revokes a will anyway.
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So So, like a marriage, a separation or a divorce, birth of a child.
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An increase in wealth, an increase in complexity of financial position, anything like that.
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And, you know, we keep it simple, keep it as simple as possible.
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But, you know, sometimes, Catherine, it seems like there's no such thing as
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a simple will anymore because everyone's financial position is so complex.
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So many people have self-managed super and they've got a trust over here and
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they've got a business over there and they've got assets. They went to,
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you know, the UK and they went halves in a property, investment property over
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there. They've got some shares on the US stock market, whatever.
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And so the financial position is complex, but also family dynamics.
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You mentioned before blended families. That's just one type of dynamic.
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Family dynamics are getting really complicated, as is parenthood.
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You know, you can be a parent now. You can be a sole mother and be a parent
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through IVF. You can adopt.
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You can foster. You can have blended families. You can have stepkids, adopted kids.
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So there is such a complex definition of family and such a complex manner in
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how we hold our finances.
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It's never too early to start. And you'll find if you do start very basic,
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you'll gradually get a little bit more complex.
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And then if you live long enough, you'll go back to basic again.
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As things wind down. There's two ways that I can go with this.
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So probably the first one is the complexities you were talking about,
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about mothers that are single mothers now that can have IVF and have children
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themselves without being partnered.
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What about queer people? Is
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there any specific things that they need to be taking into consideration?
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So yes and no, there's a lawyer's answer.
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So it's a good idea to, so the law does recognize same-sex relationships.
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It recognizes marriages.
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It recognizes non-marriages. It recognizes interdependency relationships.
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It recognizes the whole gamut. What I'd suggest is, and this wouldn't be exclusive
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for queer people, but for anybody that is in a relationship,
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they might be a queer or a straight or a gay or whatever couple,
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living together, not living together, with a house each, dividing their time
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between them, whatever their situation is,
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go and get some advice about your situation and then draft succession documents accordingly.
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There are fallback positions, you know, in a relationship. Spouses have certain
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rights and certainly same-sex relationships are recognized,
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but there are some marriages out there where people have separated that wouldn't
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be recognized as a marriage for superannuation purposes,
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for instance, and there are other situations where two people that aren't in
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a sexual relationship but are living together would be recognized as a relationship
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for superannuation purposes.
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So, it really is case by case. It's partly gender-based.
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It's partly sexuality-based. It's partly, you know, reputational-based,
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the commitment that you've got.
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And you could have two friends who, you know, absolutely adore each other and
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are life partners but have no physical relationship because of a particular
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reason, could still be regarded as a couple for succession law.
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So really, really bespoke. And the best thing to do is...
373
00:25:26,177 --> 00:25:31,417
episode:
Yeah, if you, well, I think all of us to make sure when you go and see a lawyer,
374
00:25:31,557 --> 00:25:33,257
episode:
you give them warts and all the situation.
375
00:25:33,597 --> 00:25:37,217
episode:
This is what we do. This is what we don't do. This is how we live our life because
376
00:25:37,217 --> 00:25:39,117
episode:
things get really complex.
377
00:25:39,257 --> 00:25:41,857
episode:
I think it's based on a real life situation.
378
00:25:42,137 --> 00:25:46,857
episode:
I heard a story about a household where there were, I think there were two or
379
00:25:46,857 --> 00:25:50,277
episode:
three couples and they had this really complex roster of who was sleeping with
380
00:25:50,277 --> 00:25:52,877
episode:
who, when, and the situation, the question was
381
00:25:52,977 --> 00:25:56,217
episode:
who's in a relationship and who's not and it
382
00:25:56,217 --> 00:25:59,077
episode:
really it took three lawyers to sort of sit down and unwind that
383
00:25:59,077 --> 00:26:02,057
episode:
and go okay well we've got to make some judgment calls about
384
00:26:02,057 --> 00:26:04,957
episode:
about this and to see where and they adopted a collaborative approach
385
00:26:04,957 --> 00:26:07,657
episode:
in the end about what would happen if one of them passed away and so on
386
00:26:07,657 --> 00:26:11,937
episode:
and so forth but and it's not a value judgment about any of that it's like whatever
387
00:26:11,937 --> 00:26:18,617
episode:
whatever dynamic people are in the law can accommodate provided you're up front
388
00:26:18,617 --> 00:26:23,717
episode:
about it and you set out what the parameters are and you then prepare documents
389
00:26:23,717 --> 00:26:25,177
episode:
and make decisions accordingly.
390
00:26:25,577 --> 00:26:28,617
episode:
I mean, they're in the vast minority, but they do exist.
391
00:26:28,777 --> 00:26:34,017
episode:
And I think as time goes on, more blended families, more or probably less traditional
392
00:26:34,017 --> 00:26:35,037
episode:
marriages, aren't there?
393
00:26:35,077 --> 00:26:37,537
episode:
There's less traditional mums and dads and kids out there.
394
00:26:37,717 --> 00:26:40,617
episode:
Just a lot of marriages don't seem to last the distance.
395
00:26:40,837 --> 00:26:43,657
episode:
And there are a lot of blended families, a lot.
396
00:26:44,657 --> 00:26:53,817
episode:
Yeah. The once, you know, nuclear family with the 2.5 children is not the norm anymore. No, no.
397
00:26:55,077 --> 00:27:01,097
episode:
Now, the other way in which I was going to take this was online wheels.
398
00:27:02,057 --> 00:27:05,557
episode:
Are they safe to use? Well, they can be.
399
00:27:05,677 --> 00:27:11,297
episode:
I never recommend them though because, again, it's like a one-size-fits-all
400
00:27:11,297 --> 00:27:14,317
episode:
and even though you might end up.
401
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,240
episode:
Back at a one-size-fits-all. I've got documents that, you know,
402
00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:25,660
episode:
within a range of variation are sort of template documents that I use three
403
00:27:25,660 --> 00:27:26,520
episode:
or four different types.
404
00:27:26,660 --> 00:27:32,320
episode:
And quite often where I start with a client and where I end up is not too far from where I start.
405
00:27:32,500 --> 00:27:35,680
episode:
So, there's a long journey to get back to where we started or near to it,
406
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,200
episode:
but there still is a process.
407
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,420
episode:
And what the online process does is it ignores that process.
408
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,680
episode:
It gives you a document that's the final document and you fill in the blanks
409
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,860
episode:
and that's it, one size fits all.
410
00:27:47,980 --> 00:27:51,460
episode:
It doesn't take into account things like blended families.
411
00:27:51,660 --> 00:27:53,760
episode:
There'll be a definition of I give to my children.
412
00:27:54,020 --> 00:27:57,640
episode:
And you've got to think about, well, I want my children and my stepchildren,
413
00:27:57,700 --> 00:28:00,620
episode:
but then what does that word mean? What does stepchildren mean in your context?
414
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,920
episode:
If you've got a partner who's got children and stepchildren,
415
00:28:04,020 --> 00:28:06,040
episode:
are the steps of the steps stepchildren?
416
00:28:06,220 --> 00:28:10,080
episode:
And I'm not trying to be silly about that, but you do need to think very clearly about
417
00:28:10,180 --> 00:28:13,120
episode:
your situation yeah and so quite often the
418
00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:16,320
episode:
powers of attorney and the wills and the those sort
419
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,340
episode:
of documents that get drafted as a result of an online process
420
00:28:19,340 --> 00:28:25,940
episode:
are not drafted all that well and I would say a fairly large proportion of the
421
00:28:25,940 --> 00:28:31,940
episode:
the estate claims that I've been involved in in the last 15 years have involved
422
00:28:31,940 --> 00:28:37,980
episode:
homemade or an online will and the one of the arguments has been about what does the will mean?
423
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,400
episode:
What did the testator intend? What did the willmaker intend when they said,
424
00:28:42,420 --> 00:28:43,520
episode:
I give to all my children?
425
00:28:43,740 --> 00:28:47,540
episode:
Because in this paragraph, they've referred to children, including stepchildren.
426
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,960
episode:
But in this paragraph, they've referred to children, just gender.
427
00:28:51,060 --> 00:28:53,400
episode:
Does it include the stepchildren as well or not?
428
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,080
episode:
And we're talking about big money sometimes.
429
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:03,140
episode:
So, yeah, if you're smart enough to be able to take an online will and look
430
00:29:03,140 --> 00:29:07,740
episode:
at all all the things that should be in it and fix them all before you sign
431
00:29:07,740 --> 00:29:11,300
episode:
it, you probably don't need the online will. So I think it's pretty dangerous to use an online will.
432
00:29:13,340 --> 00:29:17,700
episode:
Okay, that's good advice. And I'm assuming that would also go for your,
433
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:24,500
episode:
you know, ones that you can pick up at a post office or along that line as well.
434
00:29:24,740 --> 00:29:27,920
episode:
Yeah, same for the thing. Yeah, I mean, look, they fill a need but really it's
435
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:33,040
episode:
not that expensive to sit down with a solicitor for an hour or two and to get a bespoke document.
436
00:29:33,340 --> 00:29:35,640
episode:
If you're averse to that, then yeah, just do the best you can,
437
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,780
episode:
but just be aware that it's an important document and it'll be read by someone
438
00:29:39,780 --> 00:29:43,040
episode:
other than you and interpreted by someone other than you after you're gone.
439
00:29:43,140 --> 00:29:44,680
episode:
So you won't be there to clarify what it means.
440
00:29:46,190 --> 00:29:51,510
episode:
And what sort of price are we talking about for a will, would you say?
441
00:29:52,090 --> 00:29:57,170
episode:
Yeah, so it varies. I mean, I think that you generally, if you're off to do
442
00:29:57,170 --> 00:30:00,630
episode:
a will, you're usually doing wills and powers of attorney and having a look
443
00:30:00,630 --> 00:30:01,410
episode:
at your superannuation.
444
00:30:01,590 --> 00:30:03,390
episode:
And you can spend anywhere from
445
00:30:03,390 --> 00:30:08,490
episode:
a few hundred to less than $1,000 to get something fairly simple done.
446
00:30:08,650 --> 00:30:13,350
episode:
And you can spend anywhere north of $3,000 or $4,000 if you're wanting testamentary
447
00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:16,230
episode:
trusts and, you know, due diligences and all those sort of things done.
448
00:30:16,390 --> 00:30:22,410
episode:
I think generally, I tend to have a wide range of clients and we probably range
449
00:30:22,410 --> 00:30:24,070
episode:
from somewhere a bit less than.
450
00:30:24,710 --> 00:30:31,790
episode:
$1,000 for a single to maybe $1,500 for a couple, somewhere in that range at a fairly,
451
00:30:31,950 --> 00:30:36,530
episode:
you know, comprehensive but not too complicated level to about,
452
00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:40,170
episode:
yeah, $5,000 or $6,000 where where there are trusts and businesses and things like that.
453
00:30:40,470 --> 00:30:45,430
episode:
And then what happens is the wills, the processes that are in place,
454
00:30:45,590 --> 00:30:49,670
episode:
more and more, Catherine, we're having family meetings at the end of the process.
455
00:30:49,750 --> 00:30:54,270
episode:
So after the documents have been discussed, formulated, executed,
456
00:30:54,670 --> 00:30:57,770
episode:
we then sit down with the kids, whether it's a blended family or not,
457
00:30:57,870 --> 00:31:01,470
episode:
and go through, okay, this is what's going to happen if and when mum and dad die.
458
00:31:01,670 --> 00:31:05,510
episode:
This is where things are. These are the testamentary trusts. This is how it works.
459
00:31:05,650 --> 00:31:08,030
episode:
This is the decisions that have been made, yada, yada, yada.
460
00:31:08,130 --> 00:31:09,890
episode:
And then has anyone got queries?
461
00:31:09,950 --> 00:31:12,510
episode:
And sometimes there are legitimate queries like, well, so yes,
462
00:31:12,570 --> 00:31:14,430
episode:
so how would we value things?
463
00:31:14,570 --> 00:31:17,850
episode:
Or what about this? What about that? But what I find it does more than anything
464
00:31:17,850 --> 00:31:22,850
episode:
else is it takes something that was something we never spoke about and it turns
465
00:31:22,850 --> 00:31:29,170
episode:
it into something that we're okay talking about for half an hour every two or three years.
466
00:31:29,822 --> 00:31:32,582
episode:
And it's a bit of a signpost from one to
467
00:31:32,582 --> 00:31:35,342
episode:
the other and it means that and the feedback I get is those
468
00:31:35,342 --> 00:31:38,762
episode:
meetings are really really beneficial and
469
00:31:38,762 --> 00:31:42,622
episode:
mainly from the will makers the will makers usually shake my hand very firmly
470
00:31:42,622 --> 00:31:45,742
episode:
and so that that was a really really good I'm very comfortable now that you
471
00:31:45,742 --> 00:31:48,302
episode:
know we had some decision points we weren't sure about the business we weren't
472
00:31:48,302 --> 00:31:51,742
episode:
sure about this and we know that Michael has a bee in his bonnet because I gave
473
00:31:51,742 --> 00:31:55,662
episode:
Gavin some money when I and to just sort of clear the air and to communicate
474
00:31:55,662 --> 00:31:58,002
episode:
mum and dad love you both and And they're trying to be fair,
475
00:31:58,122 --> 00:32:01,602
episode:
but being fair when there are lumpy assets, properties and business,
476
00:32:01,682 --> 00:32:03,742
episode:
it's really hard, but we're doing the best we can.
477
00:32:03,942 --> 00:32:07,922
episode:
And it really reinforces that idea that there's no rule book with parenthood
478
00:32:07,922 --> 00:32:13,242
episode:
and there's no rule book with will making and sometimes, and unless you liquidate
479
00:32:13,242 --> 00:32:17,942
episode:
everything and divide it all like a cake, there are going to be differences.
480
00:32:18,182 --> 00:32:22,922
episode:
And provided the purpose and the reason for those differences has been ventilated,
481
00:32:22,942 --> 00:32:27,062
episode:
not not in hospital and not at the funeral and not after death,
482
00:32:27,102 --> 00:32:29,962
episode:
provided they've been ventilated in a collaborative,
483
00:32:30,962 --> 00:32:35,482
episode:
conducive environment, most people have nothing else to be upset about.
484
00:32:35,642 --> 00:32:38,942
episode:
And I think that moving forward I'm going to hopefully have a lot less litigation
485
00:32:38,942 --> 00:32:41,222
episode:
than I have in the past because of these sort of processes.
486
00:32:44,382 --> 00:32:48,202
episode:
Let's hope. Let's hope you can be put out of work, Greg. Yeah,
487
00:32:48,202 --> 00:32:49,502
episode:
that's my objective, yeah.
488
00:32:51,182 --> 00:32:55,382
episode:
When you retire, though, how's that? I'm still happy to draft the wills,
489
00:32:55,382 --> 00:32:58,782
episode:
but yeah, we could close the litigation part of the practice, yeah.
490
00:32:59,874 --> 00:33:03,634
episode:
Yeah, that'd be nice, wouldn't it? And it's interesting for me,
491
00:33:03,754 --> 00:33:07,514
episode:
my father was a clerk of courts in the coroner's court.
492
00:33:07,674 --> 00:33:12,334
episode:
So, I always grew up with, you're 18, you have to have a will.
493
00:33:12,554 --> 00:33:18,474
episode:
And so, I found it really quite strange when I met my husband and he had no idea.
494
00:33:18,834 --> 00:33:21,534
episode:
And you're right. Anarchist. He's an anarchist. Yeah.
495
00:33:22,994 --> 00:33:26,374
episode:
And you're right. Having those conversations
496
00:33:26,374 --> 00:33:29,174
episode:
you know once you know
497
00:33:29,174 --> 00:33:32,194
episode:
a year and then you know it goes
498
00:33:32,194 --> 00:33:34,994
episode:
three four years and then you maybe something happens and
499
00:33:34,994 --> 00:33:38,194
episode:
you have a conversation again but it's amazing
500
00:33:38,194 --> 00:33:44,474
episode:
to know that you've got it covered and it's not really an issue any longer yeah
501
00:33:44,474 --> 00:33:49,594
episode:
it demystifies it a little bit it you know it i find it empowering ultimately
502
00:33:49,594 --> 00:33:56,874
episode:
to to have these discussions about mortality to recognize that it exists and it's part of life.
503
00:33:56,974 --> 00:34:01,934
episode:
Death is part of life and let's plan for it. Let's not welcome it with open
504
00:34:01,934 --> 00:34:03,294
episode:
arms, but let's plan for it.
505
00:34:03,394 --> 00:34:07,314
episode:
And people are generally a lot happier knowing that they've provided for their
506
00:34:07,314 --> 00:34:11,994
episode:
loved ones and knowing that they have taken some steps to promote,
507
00:34:12,074 --> 00:34:17,694
episode:
not insure, but to promote a dignified passing for themselves and that if they lose capacity,
508
00:34:18,014 --> 00:34:21,794
episode:
they'll be looked after and their finances will be also looked after.
509
00:34:21,934 --> 00:34:25,654
episode:
And most Most people find that an incredibly empowering position to be in as
510
00:34:25,654 --> 00:34:27,794
episode:
physically and mentally they're failing.
511
00:34:28,174 --> 00:34:32,434
episode:
If someone like me and someone like you through your guide can come along and
512
00:34:32,434 --> 00:34:36,814
episode:
say, well, everything's okay and this is what will need to be done now,
513
00:34:37,014 --> 00:34:41,334
episode:
it's very important, very empowering and it's not that hard to do if you just
514
00:34:41,334 --> 00:34:46,194
episode:
set aside a bit of time every couple of years to put it in place initially and
515
00:34:46,194 --> 00:34:47,374
episode:
then to tweak it and update it.
516
00:34:49,227 --> 00:34:55,907
episode:
Very true. Now, what happens, I know you've mentioned it briefly before,
517
00:34:56,247 --> 00:34:58,907
episode:
but I just want to make sure it's cut off.
518
00:34:59,047 --> 00:35:04,267
episode:
What does happen if you die without help? Well, what doesn't happen is that
519
00:35:04,267 --> 00:35:05,267
episode:
the government gets everything.
520
00:35:05,407 --> 00:35:08,727
episode:
So my area is an area where there's lots of urban myths, you know,
521
00:35:08,727 --> 00:35:12,007
episode:
and so the government doesn't suddenly, you know, rub its hands together and
522
00:35:12,007 --> 00:35:12,927
episode:
say, great, we've got everything.
523
00:35:13,047 --> 00:35:18,047
episode:
What happens is that your nearest next of kin becomes the person responsible
524
00:35:18,047 --> 00:35:19,367
episode:
to administer your estate.
525
00:35:19,627 --> 00:35:24,567
episode:
And that usually coincides with the person who has the greatest interest in
526
00:35:24,567 --> 00:35:25,387
episode:
your estate financially.
527
00:35:25,727 --> 00:35:29,107
episode:
The theory being that people look after their own money better than anybody else.
528
00:35:29,287 --> 00:35:34,227
episode:
And so if you've got a partner, it's usually the partner that would be entitled
529
00:35:34,227 --> 00:35:37,587
episode:
to be the equivalent of the executor to administer your estate.
530
00:35:37,867 --> 00:35:41,707
episode:
If you've got no partner, but you've got children, it'll be the oldest child
531
00:35:41,707 --> 00:35:45,387
episode:
and then down the line. And if you've got no partner and children, it'll be your parents.
532
00:35:45,547 --> 00:35:48,007
episode:
So that's the who does the administration.
533
00:35:48,547 --> 00:35:53,287
episode:
And as to what happens to the estate, there's a formula and it depends on when
534
00:35:53,287 --> 00:35:56,687
episode:
you die and it changes from time to time. But currently, and it changes from state to state.
535
00:35:56,887 --> 00:36:01,647
episode:
Currently in Victoria, where I mainly practice, if you have a partner and you
536
00:36:01,647 --> 00:36:07,367
episode:
die without a will, the partner gets the first X dollars. It's called the partner's amount.
537
00:36:07,527 --> 00:36:10,587
episode:
It's about half a million dollars and it's indexed in today's money.
538
00:36:10,807 --> 00:36:14,707
episode:
And then after that, if you've only got children with the partner,
539
00:36:14,847 --> 00:36:19,187
episode:
then the partner gets half of what's left and the children get half of what's
540
00:36:19,187 --> 00:36:20,407
episode:
left. So the partner doesn't get everything.
541
00:36:20,767 --> 00:36:23,687
episode:
I know, sorry, if you've got a partner in Victoria at the moment,
542
00:36:23,707 --> 00:36:26,147
episode:
if you've got a partner and only children with the partner, the partner gets everything.
543
00:36:26,327 --> 00:36:30,387
episode:
If you've got a partner and you've got children, maybe with the partner,
544
00:36:30,447 --> 00:36:33,147
episode:
but also children independent of the partner,
545
00:36:33,447 --> 00:36:38,987
episode:
then the partner gets his or her amount and a half, and all the children share
546
00:36:38,987 --> 00:36:41,327
episode:
the other half of what's left.
547
00:36:41,447 --> 00:36:44,487
episode:
And then it gets more complex from there. There's provision in the legislation
548
00:36:44,487 --> 00:36:48,607
episode:
for multiple partners, because you might have a husband and you might have a
549
00:36:48,607 --> 00:36:49,987
episode:
girlfriend or a boyfriend.
550
00:36:50,127 --> 00:36:52,567
episode:
You know, they might have multiple partners that you might have not divorced
551
00:36:52,567 --> 00:36:54,827
episode:
the one partner before you've hooked up with another.
552
00:36:55,007 --> 00:36:57,527
episode:
So it's very messy, but there is a process.
553
00:36:57,787 --> 00:37:01,947
episode:
It's pretty fair. You know, if you die and you've got no partner and no kids,
554
00:37:01,967 --> 00:37:05,327
episode:
straight to your parents equally. If they've separated, 50-50, right?
555
00:37:05,447 --> 00:37:08,067
episode:
If your parents have passed away, goes to your siblings.
556
00:37:08,207 --> 00:37:11,227
episode:
And if any of your siblings have passed away, usually goes down the bloodline.
557
00:37:11,387 --> 00:37:16,107
episode:
The intestacy formula, apart from your partner, only follows the blood though.
558
00:37:16,167 --> 00:37:17,347
episode:
So it doesn't recognize steps.
559
00:37:17,727 --> 00:37:22,407
episode:
So that's a big change. So blended families are in trouble when it comes to intestacy.
560
00:37:24,838 --> 00:37:27,578
episode:
Oh, that's really good to know. It doesn't go to the government, okay?
561
00:37:27,698 --> 00:37:33,178
episode:
So that's one takeaway point from this session that your viewers can take is it does not go.
562
00:37:33,298 --> 00:37:38,918
episode:
It goes to the government. If your family tree is so sparse that you've got
563
00:37:38,918 --> 00:37:42,598
episode:
no one that they can identify to about, I think it's three or four degrees.
564
00:37:42,698 --> 00:37:46,518
episode:
You know, if you start a person, you go up, you know, like to a grandparent and back down.
565
00:37:46,758 --> 00:37:50,578
episode:
If after about five or six, I think it is connections. If there's nobody,
566
00:37:50,898 --> 00:37:53,178
episode:
then it goes to the government, like unclaimed monies.
567
00:37:54,838 --> 00:38:00,978
episode:
Oh, that's very good to clarify. Now, with children, if there's not been around
568
00:38:00,978 --> 00:38:06,158
episode:
to care for them when you do die or become incapacitated, what happens in that scenario?
569
00:38:06,838 --> 00:38:10,578
episode:
So, there are courts in each jurisdiction and tribunals.
570
00:38:10,678 --> 00:38:15,098
episode:
So, depending upon what would normally happen is a well-meaning relative would
571
00:38:15,098 --> 00:38:19,378
episode:
normally make an application to be appointed as guardian of the child to look
572
00:38:19,378 --> 00:38:20,558
episode:
after them until they're 18.
573
00:38:20,838 --> 00:38:25,758
episode:
And in that regard, the court or tribunal would be guided by any appointment,
574
00:38:25,978 --> 00:38:29,778
episode:
appointment you'd made in your will, because you can't actually appoint a guardian in your will.
575
00:38:29,838 --> 00:38:33,218
episode:
What you can do is you can say, I would like, I could say I'd like Catherine
576
00:38:33,218 --> 00:38:37,198
episode:
to look after my son if both my wife and I pass away.
577
00:38:37,398 --> 00:38:42,138
episode:
And that is an expression of a desire from me that I reckon she'd be a fantastic guardian.
578
00:38:42,278 --> 00:38:47,058
episode:
But if between me making the appointment, you become an unsuitable person,
579
00:38:47,138 --> 00:38:49,898
episode:
you know, you become depressed, you become come unwell, anything like that,
580
00:38:49,918 --> 00:38:54,758
episode:
or you pass away, the court can always step in and appoint someone it believes is more appropriate.
581
00:38:54,938 --> 00:38:57,978
episode:
But you've got some say into what happens, but not a lot.
582
00:38:59,758 --> 00:39:06,598
episode:
Okay, that's great. That's fantastic. Now, probate, the word that you hear,
583
00:39:06,618 --> 00:39:10,218
episode:
but you really don't know about. What is it?
584
00:39:11,278 --> 00:39:16,798
episode:
I think the best way of thinking about probate is, so we can all drive a car.
585
00:39:18,259 --> 00:39:21,259
episode:
Well, most of us can drive a car. We have the skill set, but you need a license
586
00:39:21,259 --> 00:39:22,459
episode:
to be able to drive a car legally.
587
00:39:22,819 --> 00:39:27,339
episode:
And so if I'm an executor appointed by will, I can go and do stuff.
588
00:39:27,399 --> 00:39:32,499
episode:
But in order for what I do to be legally recognized, you have to obtain probate.
589
00:39:32,799 --> 00:39:39,439
episode:
Otherwise, the law, the Supreme Court won't recognize you as the executor. And that's fine.
590
00:39:39,559 --> 00:39:42,699
episode:
Quite often, you don't need to get probate. You only need to get probate if
591
00:39:42,699 --> 00:39:44,399
episode:
for some reason you need to to be recognised.
592
00:39:44,699 --> 00:39:49,659
episode:
So, any time where someone dies in this real estate, you need probate because
593
00:39:49,659 --> 00:39:53,159
episode:
the land titles office in the state won't process a transfer from a deceased
594
00:39:53,159 --> 00:39:55,779
episode:
person to a beneficiary without probate.
595
00:39:55,879 --> 00:40:01,279
episode:
And really, to look at it pragmatically, probate is basically a registrar in
596
00:40:01,279 --> 00:40:06,919
episode:
the Supreme Court looking for any reason to find a problem with the will and the deceased.
597
00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:11,479
episode:
Is the name on the death certificate different to the will? Are there issues with capacity?
598
00:40:11,799 --> 00:40:15,779
episode:
Is the will, is the signature shaky? Do we have any, if there's any problems whatsoever?
599
00:40:16,099 --> 00:40:20,319
episode:
And if they can't find a problem with the will, they will grant probate.
600
00:40:20,419 --> 00:40:24,079
episode:
And so, it's almost like an insurance policy then that once probate's been granted,
601
00:40:24,339 --> 00:40:27,159
episode:
it's the Supreme Court in the state saying, you know what?
602
00:40:27,499 --> 00:40:30,299
episode:
Everything's fine with this estate. So, if you were my executor,
603
00:40:30,319 --> 00:40:34,159
episode:
Catherine, and I passed away and you had probate, the Supreme Court's telling
604
00:40:34,159 --> 00:40:38,059
episode:
the world, we authorize Catherine to administer Greg's estate.
605
00:40:38,299 --> 00:40:39,499
episode:
We've checked it. It's all okay.
606
00:40:39,779 --> 00:40:42,019
episode:
And then land titles office are happy.
607
00:40:42,559 --> 00:40:45,779
episode:
Banks are happy. Share registries are happy.
608
00:40:46,019 --> 00:40:50,139
episode:
Sometimes you can get money out of a bank without probate if you sign an indemnity.
609
00:40:50,299 --> 00:40:55,879
episode:
It costs X dollars to get probate and we want the bank to dispense with us having to do that.
610
00:40:56,199 --> 00:41:01,239
episode:
And probate can be expensive. It's somewhere from a couple of thousand dollars
611
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,639
episode:
to some tens of thousands of dollars depending upon what's in the estate.
612
00:41:04,639 --> 00:41:09,719
episode:
And there's a fee you have to pay to the Supreme Court like a filing fee and
613
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:14,579
episode:
they're set to increase in Victoria in December and other states may follow suit.
614
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:20,739
episode:
So, it can be expensive to get probate and it can be expensive to go through that process.
615
00:41:21,944 --> 00:41:28,484
episode:
Okay. And in my scenario, or the scenario we found ourselves in last year,
616
00:41:28,604 --> 00:41:33,284
episode:
was that Roland's family had come over from the States.
617
00:41:33,884 --> 00:41:37,844
episode:
He had very little money in his bank account. He had no real estate.
618
00:41:38,184 --> 00:41:41,044
episode:
And when we rang the probate office,
619
00:41:41,184 --> 00:41:45,884
episode:
they said it would be, whether we needed to go through the grant of probate,
620
00:41:45,984 --> 00:41:48,264
episode:
they said it would be deemed whether
621
00:41:48,264 --> 00:41:53,324
episode:
the bank would require it or his superannuation fund would require it.
622
00:41:53,684 --> 00:41:59,564
episode:
So we've had to ring those particular organisations and see what their requirements were.
623
00:41:59,824 --> 00:42:04,044
episode:
And fortunately, the kids could get access to the money and what they needed
624
00:42:04,044 --> 00:42:06,084
episode:
to before having to go to probate.
625
00:42:06,904 --> 00:42:10,024
episode:
Yeah, and that's a really good example. Sometimes banks will say,
626
00:42:10,144 --> 00:42:11,724
episode:
we don't need you to get probate.
627
00:42:11,864 --> 00:42:15,364
episode:
There are other reasons why you might want to get probate. If you have to deal
628
00:42:15,364 --> 00:42:18,704
episode:
with the tax office, you generally have to get probate because they won't recognise
629
00:42:18,704 --> 00:42:22,664
episode:
anyone one that's not formally probated as the executor.
630
00:42:22,864 --> 00:42:25,764
episode:
There are some claims that can be made in different jurisdictions.
631
00:42:26,484 --> 00:42:30,864
episode:
Challenges can be brought against an estate. Sometimes those claims are tied
632
00:42:30,864 --> 00:42:35,644
episode:
in with a period of time that elapses after probate.
633
00:42:35,744 --> 00:42:39,164
episode:
So if you get probate on the 1st of July and it's six months,
634
00:42:39,224 --> 00:42:42,584
episode:
then after six months from the 1st of July, no one can bring a claim.
635
00:42:42,724 --> 00:42:46,504
episode:
So getting probate sometimes starts a clock ticking that you might want the
636
00:42:46,504 --> 00:42:48,484
episode:
clock to tick and it to come to an end.
637
00:42:48,584 --> 00:42:52,424
episode:
If you don't get probate, there's always the risk that a claim could be brought in the future.
638
00:42:52,524 --> 00:42:56,084
episode:
So there are some tactical reasons why you might and might not get probate.
639
00:42:56,184 --> 00:42:58,384
episode:
The only reason you might not get it is because of the cost.
640
00:42:58,724 --> 00:43:01,424
episode:
But there are reasons why you might get it because you have to,
641
00:43:01,464 --> 00:43:05,924
episode:
to satisfy banks and land titles office or the end users, or for another sort
642
00:43:05,924 --> 00:43:08,364
episode:
of tactical reason that the solicitor comes up with.
643
00:43:10,180 --> 00:43:17,360
episode:
Okay, that's great. Thanks for that, Greg. Now, I think we have mentioned scenarios
644
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,080
episode:
where it's best to use a lawyer.
645
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,520
episode:
Let's cover off on how's the best way to find one.
646
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:29,200
episode:
Yep. So, the area that I do is one of those sort of bread and butter,
647
00:43:29,300 --> 00:43:31,680
episode:
or has been one of those bread and butter areas probably until recently.
648
00:43:31,780 --> 00:43:33,700
episode:
So, until recently, most lawyers
649
00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:37,840
episode:
could do a will, could transfer a property, could do a simple lease.
650
00:43:38,620 --> 00:43:42,300
episode:
Leasing's got really complex in each state as has conveyancing and it's all
651
00:43:42,300 --> 00:43:43,860
episode:
online and you've got to be registered now.
652
00:43:44,260 --> 00:43:48,720
episode:
And my area is lagging a bit. So, if you've got a simple will to do,
653
00:43:48,820 --> 00:43:52,700
episode:
if you've got a simple estate to administer, you'll find most lawyers will say
654
00:43:52,700 --> 00:43:53,720
episode:
that they're able to do it.
655
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,880
episode:
And if it's a simple estate, most lawyers will be able to do it.
656
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:02,440
episode:
If there's any degree of complexity, if there's a self-managed super fund, if there's a trust,
657
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:07,260
episode:
if there's a homemade will or an online will, if there is anything apart from
658
00:44:07,260 --> 00:44:11,520
episode:
like a house and a bit of money in the bank, my recommendation would be to get
659
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:16,740
episode:
in touch with one of the legal bodies, the legal institute bodies in the state.
660
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,620
episode:
So, the Queensland Law Society, the Law Institute of Victoria,
661
00:44:19,980 --> 00:44:24,520
episode:
the New South Wales Law Society, and just ask for a list of their accredited
662
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,760
episode:
specialists because most states in Australia
663
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:31,360
episode:
have the ability for solicitors to choose to specialise in an area and to be
664
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:33,520
episode:
recognised amongst their peers as a specialist.
665
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:37,820
episode:
So, I'm a specialist in Victoria and Wilson Estates and there are other states
666
00:44:37,820 --> 00:44:39,000
episode:
have that specialisation.
667
00:44:39,300 --> 00:44:42,820
episode:
And if you've got anything that's out of the ordinary, my recommendation would
668
00:44:42,820 --> 00:44:45,280
episode:
be use a specialist because it's more cost effective,
669
00:44:45,460 --> 00:44:50,000
episode:
it's more time effective and we get to the issues straight away and we tend
670
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:54,780
episode:
to, having seen a lot of it before, we can give you a sort of reassurance about
671
00:44:54,780 --> 00:44:58,520
episode:
how things are going to go and we can warn you about where the problems are going to be.
672
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,500
episode:
So, yeah, get onto the referral list from one of the industry associations and
673
00:45:02,500 --> 00:45:04,020
episode:
ask for a specialist would be my recommendation.
674
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:10,200
episode:
And what about Doyle's List? What's Doyle's List?
675
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:18,000
episode:
Doyle's List is controversial. Doyle's List is a list that, and it's actually
676
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,840
episode:
a very useful list. So there are some people that question its utility.
677
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:27,440
episode:
So it's a list of peer-recognized specialists in particular fields.
678
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:32,440
episode:
And I'm told, I've never been the recipient of a survey request,
679
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:39,400
episode:
but I'm told that practitioners are randomly requested to nominate who they
680
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:44,620
episode:
believe is a particular leading light in a particular area.
681
00:45:44,620 --> 00:45:48,760
episode:
Area, criminal law, family law, succession, you know, administration of estates,
682
00:45:48,780 --> 00:45:51,060
episode:
will-making, administrative law, whatever.
683
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:57,800
episode:
And so, it's a law, it's a database that is apparently compiled through that database
684
00:45:58,169 --> 00:46:03,649
episode:
process of asking peers to nominate for no reward who they think are leading
685
00:46:03,649 --> 00:46:04,869
episode:
lights in particular areas.
686
00:46:05,049 --> 00:46:09,269
episode:
And if you jump onto Doyle's list, you'll be able to see in each state who the
687
00:46:09,269 --> 00:46:14,509
episode:
recommended solicitors and barristers in particular areas, including willmaking
688
00:46:14,509 --> 00:46:18,029
episode:
or estate planning and will disputes or estate disputes are.
689
00:46:18,149 --> 00:46:24,069
episode:
And yeah, I have a look at Doyle's. I'm involved on Doyle's and it's great to
690
00:46:24,069 --> 00:46:25,209
episode:
be recognized like that.
691
00:46:26,909 --> 00:46:30,709
episode:
It's just another one of those things that there are, I guess the more sources
692
00:46:30,709 --> 00:46:35,149
episode:
of information you get, it's a bit like if you only decided to use products
693
00:46:35,149 --> 00:46:39,469
episode:
or services based on Google reviews, you might be misinforming yourself.
694
00:46:39,729 --> 00:46:43,389
episode:
And I think if you only relied on Doyle's list, you might be misinforming yourself.
695
00:46:43,489 --> 00:46:47,129
episode:
But I think it's a really useful tool and certainly a good place as part of that process.
696
00:46:47,509 --> 00:46:51,389
episode:
But my advice also, Catherine, would be to not overthink it too much unless
697
00:46:51,389 --> 00:46:53,449
episode:
it's a super complex situation.
698
00:46:54,049 --> 00:46:59,409
episode:
If you're an executor and you've already got a solicitor, maybe ask that solicitor,
699
00:46:59,529 --> 00:47:02,709
episode:
can they assist you? And if they can't, can they recommend someone who can?
700
00:47:03,109 --> 00:47:06,849
episode:
If you're an executor and you don't have a solicitor, then I'd be saying,
701
00:47:06,869 --> 00:47:08,929
episode:
yeah, go to Doyle's, go to the Law Institute.
702
00:47:09,089 --> 00:47:12,749
episode:
And if you can get someone who's on both a referral list from one of the Law
703
00:47:12,749 --> 00:47:15,769
episode:
Institutes and on Doyle's, that's got to be a pretty high recommendation.
704
00:47:17,709 --> 00:47:19,209
episode:
That's fantastic. Thanks for
705
00:47:19,209 --> 00:47:24,909
episode:
that because a previous guest on the show had talked about Doyle's List.
706
00:47:24,989 --> 00:47:28,309
episode:
So I just wanted to get your opinion on that. That's great. Thank you.
707
00:47:28,429 --> 00:47:32,489
episode:
With being the role of the executor, what are the responsibilities?
708
00:47:33,609 --> 00:47:37,689
episode:
Yes. So the executor has two main responsibilities.
709
00:47:37,989 --> 00:47:43,229
episode:
The first relates to the body. They've got to arrange for the proper disposal
710
00:47:43,229 --> 00:47:44,509
episode:
of the body or the remains.
711
00:47:44,809 --> 00:47:49,009
episode:
So don't have to have a funeral, but it's the executor's right and obligation
712
00:47:49,009 --> 00:47:49,969
episode:
to organize the funeral.
713
00:47:51,589 --> 00:47:55,289
episode:
Clients that come to see me often very clear about what they want and what they
714
00:47:55,289 --> 00:47:57,309
episode:
don't want to occur in their funeral.
715
00:47:57,749 --> 00:48:02,389
episode:
And those requests, those desires are unenforceable.
716
00:48:02,449 --> 00:48:06,329
episode:
It's really up to the executor. So if you're choosing an executor,
717
00:48:06,369 --> 00:48:10,569
episode:
make sure the executor knows what you want, what your expectations are and ask
718
00:48:10,569 --> 00:48:11,549
episode:
them to fulfill fill those.
719
00:48:11,809 --> 00:48:14,829
episode:
It's their call. So, they have to do that. They've got to take responsibility
720
00:48:14,829 --> 00:48:19,889
episode:
for the remains and for disposing of the remains, whether they're cremated remains or whatever.
721
00:48:20,509 --> 00:48:25,549
episode:
The second set of responsibilities the executor has then are financial. So, it's about.
722
00:48:26,455 --> 00:48:29,595
episode:
Ending your social time on earth, I guess.
723
00:48:29,675 --> 00:48:36,455
episode:
It's memorializing all of your social media accounts, identifying all of your assets, securing them.
724
00:48:36,635 --> 00:48:40,015
episode:
If you've got a house, check with the insurance company, it's still insured.
725
00:48:40,135 --> 00:48:42,815
episode:
If you've got a car, make sure that it's insured.
726
00:48:43,135 --> 00:48:45,935
episode:
Securing it, make sure things are locked up, make sure the house is secured,
727
00:48:46,035 --> 00:48:48,255
episode:
make sure the car's locked up, things like that.
728
00:48:48,455 --> 00:48:52,435
episode:
And it's then once identifying the assets, identifying and paying the debts,
729
00:48:52,435 --> 00:48:57,995
episode:
and then using the will as a bit of a roadmap to determine who gets what and
730
00:48:57,995 --> 00:49:02,615
episode:
dividing the estate between the beneficiaries nominated in the will.
731
00:49:03,235 --> 00:49:10,355
episode:
Finalising things like Centrelink notifications, Medibank, Medicare notifications, all that sort of stuff.
732
00:49:10,455 --> 00:49:14,595
episode:
Notifying people that need to be notified, tax obligations, making sure that
733
00:49:14,595 --> 00:49:16,695
episode:
all the deceased tax affairs are up to date.
734
00:49:16,755 --> 00:49:20,555
episode:
If the estate earns some income, making sure the estate pays tax.
735
00:49:20,915 --> 00:49:25,995
episode:
Basically, it's It's putting everything in a bag, putting a knot in the top,
736
00:49:26,095 --> 00:49:33,295
episode:
and then making sure that it's disposed of and that your business on earth, financial,
737
00:49:33,655 --> 00:49:38,175
episode:
all of your chattels, all of your assets are distributed to your beneficiaries
738
00:49:38,175 --> 00:49:40,475
episode:
and there's nothing left of you. That's an executor's job.
739
00:49:42,315 --> 00:49:45,835
episode:
So just a few things you can do on a Sunday afternoon.
740
00:49:46,515 --> 00:49:53,375
episode:
Very onerous job. I'm an executor for a very few number of clients who insist
741
00:49:53,375 --> 00:49:57,315
episode:
and ask and don't have anyone else. It is a very onerous job.
742
00:49:57,495 --> 00:50:01,395
episode:
It's a privilege, of course, to be an executor. And in the distant future,
743
00:50:01,475 --> 00:50:03,275
episode:
I'll be my mum's executor with my siblings.
744
00:50:03,395 --> 00:50:05,795
episode:
But it's a big responsibility.
745
00:50:06,135 --> 00:50:10,775
episode:
And if you make a mistake, you're personally liable. If you make a mistake and
746
00:50:10,775 --> 00:50:13,435
episode:
there's money in the estate, you might be able to get reimbursed from the estate.
747
00:50:13,635 --> 00:50:16,315
episode:
But if you make an estate and there's not. So if you distribute everything and
748
00:50:16,315 --> 00:50:18,815
episode:
you miss a beneficiary, you've got to pay them out of your own pocket.
749
00:50:18,895 --> 00:50:20,355
episode:
So it's a big responsibility.
750
00:50:22,634 --> 00:50:27,654
episode:
Yeah, I think that's something that a lot of people aren't aware of, just how big a job it is.
751
00:50:27,974 --> 00:50:33,294
episode:
What sort of companies do you think makes a good executor that you've seen in your experience?
752
00:50:34,634 --> 00:50:38,734
episode:
Yeah, it's another really good question. I think the, and this is going to sound
753
00:50:38,734 --> 00:50:41,234
episode:
self-serving, but the ability to know what you don't know.
754
00:50:41,374 --> 00:50:44,954
episode:
So a good executor will get tax advice from an accountant.
755
00:50:45,134 --> 00:50:50,954
episode:
A good executor who has to administer an estate for two years while an estate
756
00:50:50,954 --> 00:50:54,974
episode:
claims is being dealt with will get financial advice about how to invest the
757
00:50:54,974 --> 00:50:56,834
episode:
funds in the meantime and the assets in the meantime.
758
00:50:57,194 --> 00:51:01,314
episode:
A good executive will get proper legal advice. So, it's the ability to recognize
759
00:51:01,314 --> 00:51:05,694
episode:
what they do and don't know and to source appropriate advice.
760
00:51:06,134 --> 00:51:09,734
episode:
And then the other thing is the ability to make decisions and judgment calls,
761
00:51:09,934 --> 00:51:12,614
episode:
you know, and you make those based on advice.
762
00:51:12,934 --> 00:51:17,454
episode:
But, you know, if a property has to be sold and it's being auctioned and the
763
00:51:17,454 --> 00:51:21,674
episode:
the reserve's a million dollars and it gets to $975,000, what do you do? Do you sell?
764
00:51:21,934 --> 00:51:25,174
episode:
Do you go back to the beneficiaries and get their consent? Or do you have it
765
00:51:25,174 --> 00:51:26,734
episode:
pass in and then go to private sale?
766
00:51:27,114 --> 00:51:29,934
episode:
And so, you've got to make judgment calls and not second guess yourself.
767
00:51:30,014 --> 00:51:31,694
episode:
You've got to make a decision and be able to move on.
768
00:51:31,834 --> 00:51:35,454
episode:
So, yeah, someone, if you were choosing an executive, it'd be usually someone
769
00:51:35,454 --> 00:51:40,934
episode:
who has a degree of familiarity with business matters and a degree of business
770
00:51:40,934 --> 00:51:47,194
episode:
acumen and someone who is going to use their head or is able to use their head
771
00:51:47,194 --> 00:51:50,434
episode:
independent of their heart from time to time,
772
00:51:50,454 --> 00:51:56,014
episode:
because it's about bringing objectivity into an environment which is generally pretty emotionally,
773
00:51:56,254 --> 00:51:59,054
episode:
you know, is an emotional environment.
774
00:51:59,174 --> 00:52:03,554
episode:
So someone who can be objective and pragmatic, make decisions and delegate would
775
00:52:03,554 --> 00:52:04,734
episode:
be the perfect executor.
776
00:52:06,495 --> 00:52:13,035
episode:
And would you say those qualities are something that should also be represented in a power of attorney?
777
00:52:14,415 --> 00:52:17,535
episode:
Yep, absolutely. A power of attorney is a slightly different role.
778
00:52:17,635 --> 00:52:20,975
episode:
So an executor's role starts, escalates, and then finishes.
779
00:52:21,115 --> 00:52:24,135
episode:
It might be three months, six months, 12 months, but it's a role.
780
00:52:24,435 --> 00:52:29,815
episode:
Once the body is dealt with, a state is dealt with, it's identified, it's a defined thing.
781
00:52:29,815 --> 00:52:32,935
episode:
An attorney so that's like
782
00:52:32,935 --> 00:52:35,935
episode:
an executive is like a 400 meter runner
783
00:52:35,935 --> 00:52:39,355
episode:
or an 800 meter runner whereas potentially an attorney
784
00:52:39,355 --> 00:52:42,175
episode:
has to be a marathon runner because they might have to just
785
00:52:42,175 --> 00:52:47,535
episode:
keep administering your estate for years you might lose capacity at age 75 and
786
00:52:47,535 --> 00:52:53,175
episode:
linger till 95 and they have to administer your estate on an ongoing basis so
787
00:52:53,175 --> 00:53:00,415
episode:
the an attorney's role is more so I think more important quality is to be able
788
00:53:00,415 --> 00:53:01,735
episode:
to be a bit schizophrenic,
789
00:53:01,735 --> 00:53:06,795
episode:
to be able to separate your finances and your interests from those of the person
790
00:53:06,795 --> 00:53:11,675
episode:
you're looking after and to have those two running in place for an indefinite
791
00:53:11,675 --> 00:53:14,075
episode:
period of time, which is quite different to an executor's role.
792
00:53:14,235 --> 00:53:16,475
episode:
The other qualities are all the same though, getting advice,
793
00:53:16,735 --> 00:53:20,835
episode:
being objective and making decisions, but you also then need the ability to
794
00:53:20,835 --> 00:53:26,395
episode:
be able to juggle two sets of accounts and make decisions for someone on an ongoing basis.
795
00:53:28,128 --> 00:53:34,308
episode:
And in your experience, is it better or worse to have the power of attorney
796
00:53:34,308 --> 00:53:36,368
episode:
and the executive in the same person?
797
00:53:37,288 --> 00:53:42,168
episode:
Makes sense to me. I recommend to my clients if there can be.
798
00:53:42,248 --> 00:53:45,728
episode:
So there are kind of three different things you have to think about while someone's
799
00:53:45,728 --> 00:53:47,068
episode:
alive. There's medical decisions.
800
00:53:47,388 --> 00:53:51,128
episode:
And that's, I reckon, the most important because, you know, the dignity in dying,
801
00:53:51,248 --> 00:53:57,608
episode:
having your last wishes about your physical life on earth being respected.
802
00:53:57,608 --> 00:54:02,368
episode:
It incredibly important and sometimes the hardest role to fulfill because it
803
00:54:02,368 --> 00:54:04,328
episode:
does require a certain personality.
804
00:54:04,728 --> 00:54:08,968
episode:
My mum asked me to do that for her and dad, what my parents did when he was
805
00:54:08,968 --> 00:54:13,388
episode:
alive, and I politely refused and said, I wouldn't be able to turn the machine off on your mum.
806
00:54:13,468 --> 00:54:17,228
episode:
I wouldn't be able to do it. My sister is a nurse and she's very pragmatic.
807
00:54:17,348 --> 00:54:19,368
episode:
She said, I'll do it. I know what mum wants and I'd hate it,
808
00:54:19,388 --> 00:54:22,108
episode:
but I'll do it. She was the right choice and I would have been the wrong choice.
809
00:54:22,388 --> 00:54:26,328
episode:
When it comes to personal matters, guardianship type matters,
810
00:54:26,388 --> 00:54:28,928
episode:
again, and there's usually someone that has a degree of empathy.
811
00:54:29,288 --> 00:54:32,808
episode:
When it comes to financial matters, because they're the only thing that's left
812
00:54:32,808 --> 00:54:34,448
episode:
after you die is financial matters, right?
813
00:54:34,568 --> 00:54:39,468
episode:
So, when it comes to appointing a financial attorney, it makes sense to me that
814
00:54:39,468 --> 00:54:44,048
episode:
there'd be either the same person as a financial attorney as the executor or
815
00:54:44,048 --> 00:54:48,928
episode:
the same group as the executor and the financial attorney, or that there's a common thread.
816
00:54:49,028 --> 00:54:53,628
episode:
So, that if you and I were Bob's financial attorneys, and then when Bob dies,
817
00:54:53,848 --> 00:54:56,948
episode:
you and someone else would be the executors, so there's
818
00:54:56,948 --> 00:54:59,768
episode:
that common thread and that you already know you don't have to reinvent you have
819
00:54:59,768 --> 00:55:02,608
episode:
to go so what's why we got all these telstra shares why do we buy those
820
00:55:02,608 --> 00:55:06,008
episode:
you know what's going on and you transition from you
821
00:55:06,008 --> 00:55:08,748
episode:
take one hat off you put the other hat on
822
00:55:08,748 --> 00:55:11,528
episode:
but you're in the same vehicle okay so you're just a different role that that
823
00:55:11,528 --> 00:55:16,588
episode:
makes sense to me and it makes sense to me that the person you would trust to
824
00:55:16,588 --> 00:55:21,068
episode:
tidy up your affairs after you die has got to have a lot of the same qualities
825
00:55:21,068 --> 00:55:24,408
episode:
as the person you would trust to do that if you lost capacity while you're alive
826
00:55:24,408 --> 00:55:26,548
episode:
So yeah, should be the same person if possible.
827
00:55:28,652 --> 00:55:34,992
episode:
That's great. Thanks, Greg. I appreciate that. Now, how can I contest a will in Australia?
828
00:55:35,772 --> 00:55:41,332
episode:
Oh, yes. Well, so there are two main ways that a will can be contested or two
829
00:55:41,332 --> 00:55:46,092
episode:
reasons you might contest a will or someone might not have done a will and what
830
00:55:46,092 --> 00:55:48,352
episode:
happens under intestacy you might not be happy about.
831
00:55:48,692 --> 00:55:53,552
episode:
If we're talking about a will to start with, you might want to argue you that
832
00:55:53,552 --> 00:55:55,852
episode:
the will is invalid, okay?
833
00:55:55,912 --> 00:56:00,972
episode:
So, it might be that the mum's will always divided everything three ways between her kids.
834
00:56:01,072 --> 00:56:05,612
episode:
And for the last year, Frank's been living with her and he's got in her ear
835
00:56:05,612 --> 00:56:08,412
episode:
and suddenly mum dies and there's a will that gives everything to Frank.
836
00:56:08,652 --> 00:56:09,852
episode:
What's that all about, okay?
837
00:56:10,172 --> 00:56:13,792
episode:
So, the first thing you can do is you can look at whether or not you can argue
838
00:56:13,792 --> 00:56:15,372
episode:
the will is not a valid document.
839
00:56:15,792 --> 00:56:19,452
episode:
And without going into too much detail, there are limited limited basis to do that.
840
00:56:19,492 --> 00:56:23,092
episode:
You can say in that case that mum didn't have capacity to do a will,
841
00:56:23,132 --> 00:56:27,252
episode:
she didn't have testamentary capacity, the capacity to do a will. It's very specific.
842
00:56:27,692 --> 00:56:31,652
episode:
You can argue that she was placed under undue influence, which is a very high
843
00:56:31,652 --> 00:56:37,352
episode:
bar, but effectively, it wasn't her own volition, her will to do that will.
844
00:56:37,492 --> 00:56:39,252
episode:
It was someone else forcing her to do it.
845
00:56:39,432 --> 00:56:42,092
episode:
Or you can argue that she hadn't read it. She didn't know it was in it.
846
00:56:42,292 --> 00:56:43,512
episode:
She never would have signed that.
847
00:56:44,352 --> 00:56:46,592
episode:
Someone just put a bit of paper in front of her and she signed it,
848
00:56:46,612 --> 00:56:47,572
episode:
not even knowing it was a will.
849
00:56:47,972 --> 00:56:53,872
episode:
Pretty limited basis. And if a will is formally executed, you know how before
850
00:56:53,872 --> 00:56:57,572
episode:
I said the law operates on presumptions, there's a presumption that if a will
851
00:56:57,572 --> 00:56:59,752
episode:
is formally executed, that it's valid.
852
00:56:59,972 --> 00:57:03,572
episode:
And there are different rules for formal execution of wills in each state,
853
00:57:03,612 --> 00:57:08,232
episode:
but generally in writing, signed somewhere on the will, but we always sign at
854
00:57:08,232 --> 00:57:11,272
episode:
the foot of each page and witnessed by at least two people.
855
00:57:11,392 --> 00:57:16,392
episode:
And the two people have to be there when the will maker signs and the will maker
856
00:57:16,392 --> 00:57:18,432
episode:
has got to be there when they each sign. Okay.
857
00:57:18,752 --> 00:57:22,532
episode:
And so if that happens, if there's a will, if there's a document that says will.
858
00:57:23,101 --> 00:57:26,981
episode:
And it looks like a will, and it's been signed by the test data and two witnesses.
859
00:57:27,521 --> 00:57:32,161
episode:
It's generally deemed to be a formal will, and there is a presumption that the
860
00:57:32,161 --> 00:57:36,441
episode:
test data had, the willmaker had capacity, and there's a presumption that they
861
00:57:36,441 --> 00:57:38,181
episode:
knew of and approved the contents.
862
00:57:38,481 --> 00:57:43,841
episode:
So it's a much higher bar that you've got to jump over to start arguing that
863
00:57:43,841 --> 00:57:47,681
episode:
the person or that the person didn't know what they were doing or that the will's not valid.
864
00:57:47,901 --> 00:57:51,761
episode:
Anyway, the first grounds that you would challenge a will, Catherine,
865
00:57:51,841 --> 00:57:53,341
episode:
is that you'd say it's an invalid document.
866
00:57:53,601 --> 00:57:57,261
episode:
The second basis is you might look at it and say, well, we can't challenge that
867
00:57:57,261 --> 00:58:00,421
episode:
it's a valid document. We accept it's valid, but you know what?
868
00:58:00,701 --> 00:58:05,621
episode:
Mum got it wrong. She just, you know how she decided late in life to give everything to Frank?
869
00:58:05,801 --> 00:58:09,761
episode:
She shouldn't have done that. She got it wrong. And so what you can do is,
870
00:58:09,801 --> 00:58:14,161
episode:
again, on a really limited basis, and it really varies from state to state,
871
00:58:14,301 --> 00:58:19,581
episode:
a limited class of people can say, I accept the will's a valid a document,
872
00:58:19,761 --> 00:58:21,841
episode:
but I'm unhappy with its contents.
873
00:58:22,161 --> 00:58:26,481
episode:
And that's called a family provision claim. Basically, we say that the will
874
00:58:26,481 --> 00:58:29,501
episode:
doesn't adequately provide for me.
875
00:58:29,741 --> 00:58:34,541
episode:
And in Victoria, that the sort of the basic test, and it's pretty similar in
876
00:58:34,541 --> 00:58:39,281
episode:
other states, is that you've got to establish that the deceased person had an obligation.
877
00:58:39,281 --> 00:58:43,001
episode:
We call it a moral obligation, but that word moral, who knows what it means,
878
00:58:43,101 --> 00:58:48,081
episode:
a moral obligation to provide for me and that the will doesn't satisfy that obligation.
879
00:58:48,421 --> 00:58:54,601
episode:
Okay. So, if I've got no assets, I'm suffering from mental illness,
880
00:58:54,701 --> 00:59:00,361
episode:
I'm living on the street, mum's got $2 million, I've got a sibling who's comfortable
881
00:59:00,361 --> 00:59:02,081
episode:
and mum gives everything to the sibling.
882
00:59:02,721 --> 00:59:06,961
episode:
It's not about fairness. It's not about 50-50 or anything like that.
883
00:59:07,081 --> 00:59:12,681
episode:
It's basically the court saying to mum, you brought Greg into the world and
884
00:59:12,681 --> 00:59:19,061
episode:
you got an obligation to make basic provision for him, he needs it and your will doesn't do that.
885
00:59:19,261 --> 00:59:25,401
episode:
And so then what a court will do is it'll vary the will just enough so that my needs are met.
886
00:59:25,701 --> 00:59:28,541
episode:
That's all it does. And so they're called family provision claims.
887
00:59:28,721 --> 00:59:29,801
episode:
They've been around for years.
888
00:59:30,101 --> 00:59:34,341
episode:
Their law changes all the time. The time limits are different in every state.
889
00:59:34,661 --> 00:59:38,241
episode:
The people who can claim are different in every state and the case law,
890
00:59:38,321 --> 00:59:40,101
episode:
what you might expect is different in every state.
891
00:59:40,241 --> 00:59:43,981
episode:
And so if you're looking at contesting a will, the best advice I can give you
892
00:59:43,981 --> 00:59:50,661
episode:
is whatever state you're in, ring a solicitor straight away as early as possible and ask questions.
893
00:59:50,701 --> 00:59:53,281
episode:
Because sometimes if there's assets in different jurisdictions,
894
00:59:53,541 --> 00:59:55,621
episode:
there's different claims made in different jurisdictions.
895
00:59:56,021 --> 00:59:59,021
episode:
And if the person lived in one jurisdiction, there's a claim made in that as
896
00:59:59,021 --> 01:00:02,681
episode:
well. So it can get quite complex, but they're the two bases.
897
01:00:02,761 --> 01:00:05,981
episode:
You challenge that the will's valid or you challenge what the will does.
898
01:00:07,930 --> 01:00:11,770
episode:
And just on that point, Greg, that's something that I hadn't actually noted
899
01:00:11,770 --> 01:00:17,650
episode:
down here was, as you were saying, if you make a will in one state and then
900
01:00:17,650 --> 01:00:22,110
episode:
you have assets in other states, how does that work?
901
01:00:22,670 --> 01:00:26,190
episode:
That's another good question. And to just broaden that question a bit,
902
01:00:26,290 --> 01:00:29,350
episode:
people nowadays have assets in lots of different jurisdictions.
903
01:00:29,470 --> 01:00:33,010
episode:
I think I mentioned before, you know, I've got an uncle and he's recommended.
904
01:00:33,210 --> 01:00:36,970
episode:
So I gave him $100,000 and I've got assets. I've got shares in the American
905
01:00:36,970 --> 01:00:40,070
episode:
stock exchange. or I worked for a couple of years in the States and I've got,
906
01:00:40,090 --> 01:00:43,150
episode:
you know, what they call their superannuation over there, or I,
907
01:00:43,190 --> 01:00:45,330
episode:
you know, I inherited a property in the UK.
908
01:00:45,490 --> 01:00:48,750
episode:
So, people have not only assets in different states of Australia,
909
01:00:48,950 --> 01:00:50,730
episode:
they have assets in different countries.
910
01:00:51,210 --> 01:00:57,690
episode:
And so, so the bottom line is that you've got to do documents that are going
911
01:00:57,690 --> 01:01:03,090
episode:
to be valid and recognized in the jurisdiction that you die in.
912
01:01:03,170 --> 01:01:06,610
episode:
So, you're domicile at the date of death. So, wherever you're living at the
913
01:01:06,610 --> 01:01:14,490
episode:
date of death, that's a really important factor for working out what happens with your assets, okay?
914
01:01:14,850 --> 01:01:19,490
episode:
But the other thing is that if you've got immovable property,
915
01:01:19,570 --> 01:01:23,490
episode:
if you've got real estate, basically, if you've got real estate in a particular
916
01:01:23,490 --> 01:01:26,830
episode:
state of Australia or overseas,
917
01:01:27,270 --> 01:01:32,430
episode:
then it's the law of the land that the real estate is in that applies.
918
01:01:32,790 --> 01:01:35,650
episode:
So, So, to answer your question with a really silly example,
919
01:01:35,850 --> 01:01:39,950
episode:
if I've got assets in Australia and I've got assets in, say,
920
01:01:40,130 --> 01:01:44,470
episode:
France, and I do a will that simply says I give all my assets to Catherine,
921
01:01:44,630 --> 01:01:49,890
episode:
in Australia, that'll be effective because I know how to do a will in Australia.
922
01:01:50,270 --> 01:01:52,630
episode:
But in France, it might not be effective.
923
01:01:53,329 --> 01:01:56,329
episode:
Because there might be rules about who gets the assets.
924
01:01:56,389 --> 01:01:59,709
episode:
When I die, half of them might go to my parents, half of them might not go to
925
01:01:59,709 --> 01:02:03,089
episode:
you. So, there might be what we call forced airship rules, okay?
926
01:02:03,289 --> 01:02:07,249
episode:
There might be other formalities with the will. Here, we need a signature and two witnesses.
927
01:02:07,629 --> 01:02:12,369
episode:
Over there, they might need three. I don't know. So, the longer answer to your
928
01:02:12,369 --> 01:02:15,589
episode:
question is if you ever have assets in multiple jurisdictions,
929
01:02:16,069 --> 01:02:19,729
episode:
find someone like me that can talk about each jurisdiction in Australia,
930
01:02:19,929 --> 01:02:24,509
episode:
but someone like me will then say to you, we need to have a conference or you
931
01:02:24,509 --> 01:02:26,689
episode:
need to have a meeting with a solicitor.
932
01:02:26,769 --> 01:02:29,009
episode:
I've got one at the moment where there are assets in Thailand,
933
01:02:29,089 --> 01:02:31,569
episode:
and we're going to have a meeting with the Thai solicitor.
934
01:02:31,629 --> 01:02:36,049
episode:
And I'm going to say, right, what do we need to do to make sure that this happens
935
01:02:36,049 --> 01:02:40,329
episode:
across the board in relation to death or disability?
936
01:02:40,929 --> 01:02:45,269
episode:
And what I generally recommend is that you do a will that basically says at
937
01:02:45,269 --> 01:02:50,929
episode:
the start of the will to the world, this will will only deal with and distribute
938
01:02:50,929 --> 01:02:53,909
episode:
assets in, and then you list out where it is in Australia.
939
01:02:54,269 --> 01:02:58,669
episode:
And then in the case of this Thai couple that I've got, I'm recommending that
940
01:02:58,669 --> 01:03:01,949
episode:
they do a will in Australia and I'm recommending they do a will in Thailand
941
01:03:01,949 --> 01:03:05,049
episode:
and that the two of them are separate. They're independent of each other.
942
01:03:05,369 --> 01:03:08,529
episode:
So yeah, multiple wills, multiple powers of attorney.
943
01:03:08,929 --> 01:03:13,429
episode:
It's again, it's just about being pragmatic and thinking if I die or lose capacity
944
01:03:13,429 --> 01:03:20,289
episode:
in a particular geographical location, what are the laws of that area and how
945
01:03:20,289 --> 01:03:23,889
episode:
are they going to impact on what happens to me, to my body, to the choices that are made?
946
01:03:25,309 --> 01:03:30,109
episode:
And just clarifying, so I made my will in Victoria.
947
01:03:30,629 --> 01:03:38,349
episode:
So if I died in another state, probate is my Victorian will still valid?
948
01:03:38,469 --> 01:03:42,329
episode:
Yeah, in Australia, most of the wills acts are similar enough that if you do
949
01:03:42,329 --> 01:03:47,029
episode:
a will in one state, it'll be regarded as it'll apply to all of your assets.
950
01:03:47,309 --> 01:03:50,389
episode:
If you don't stipulate, if you simply say, I give everything I own at the date
951
01:03:50,389 --> 01:03:54,329
episode:
of my death to Catherine, then wherever you own assets, you might have to get
952
01:03:54,329 --> 01:03:57,689
episode:
probate in two or three different places, but each of the different states will
953
01:03:57,689 --> 01:03:58,849
episode:
recognise that as a will.
954
01:03:58,989 --> 01:04:02,989
episode:
It doesn't matter where you signed it. What matters is whether the probate office
955
01:04:02,989 --> 01:04:05,749
episode:
can recognise it as a will at the date of your death.
956
01:04:05,969 --> 01:04:10,669
episode:
And in Australia, all the rules are similar enough that the probate offices would.
957
01:04:12,493 --> 01:04:17,973
episode:
Okay, that's good to know. But what a trend we must have seen what emerged over
958
01:04:17,973 --> 01:04:23,553
episode:
the last 15, 20 years is that's the change with people being more mobile.
959
01:04:24,233 --> 01:04:27,573
episode:
Yep. A lot more things online, definition of family changing,
960
01:04:27,713 --> 01:04:29,193
episode:
definition of property changing,
961
01:04:29,533 --> 01:04:34,513
episode:
Bitcoin, you know, all of this stuff that, you know, the, I think,
962
01:04:34,533 --> 01:04:38,373
episode:
you know, I reckon in the the last three years, I've had one estate,
963
01:04:38,693 --> 01:04:43,813
episode:
which has been as simple as a house, money in the bank and chattels.
964
01:04:43,973 --> 01:04:46,633
episode:
I've had one. Everything else has had a degree of complexity.
965
01:04:47,713 --> 01:04:53,093
episode:
And that's fine. It is what it is. But it is an area that it does argue towards
966
01:04:53,093 --> 01:04:55,373
episode:
using people that specialize.
967
01:04:55,573 --> 01:04:59,533
episode:
Like if I was needing a family lawyer, I'd go to a family law specialist.
968
01:04:59,713 --> 01:05:02,593
episode:
And if I'm getting a lease done, I'll go to a commercial law specialist.
969
01:05:02,753 --> 01:05:06,733
episode:
So this is an area that is becoming sufficiently complex that I think generally
970
01:05:06,733 --> 01:05:12,293
episode:
warrants that you at least think about the benefits of, yeah,
971
01:05:12,573 --> 01:05:16,253
episode:
speaking to a financial advisor, speaking to an accountant and speaking to a
972
01:05:16,253 --> 01:05:18,993
episode:
specialist solicitor, and particularly if you're an executor.
973
01:05:19,013 --> 01:05:21,733
episode:
Because executors, their reputation
974
01:05:21,733 --> 01:05:25,293
episode:
and financially, they're on the hook for anything they do wrong.
975
01:05:25,413 --> 01:05:30,293
episode:
So, make sure that if you are an executor, you think about carefully whether you want to do the job.
976
01:05:30,373 --> 01:05:33,413
episode:
And I've been an executor and I've taken it on board because it's a,
977
01:05:33,413 --> 01:05:36,813
episode:
you know, It's a responsibility and it's a privilege, but you do need to dot
978
01:05:36,813 --> 01:05:39,233
episode:
the I's, cross the T's and make sure you're covered.
979
01:05:41,547 --> 01:05:47,167
episode:
Yeah, it certainly sounds like it. And is there any way to exclude someone from a will?
980
01:05:48,187 --> 01:05:51,367
episode:
Yep, there is. So, there's two ways to do it. One is to, well,
981
01:05:51,447 --> 01:05:54,567
episode:
three ways. One is to simply not include them in the will and do nothing more.
982
01:05:54,927 --> 01:06:00,627
episode:
A better way is to not include them in the will and to explain blandly in the
983
01:06:00,627 --> 01:06:02,807
episode:
will that you've not included them.
984
01:06:03,227 --> 01:06:08,087
episode:
And then external to the will, you can put more detail about why you've excluded
985
01:06:08,087 --> 01:06:11,027
episode:
them. So, if I wanted to cut out Simon from my estate.
986
01:06:11,387 --> 01:06:15,947
episode:
I could put in my will. I give everything to my two children, Mary and Bob.
987
01:06:16,167 --> 01:06:18,907
episode:
A better way to go would be to say, I give everything to my two children,
988
01:06:18,927 --> 01:06:22,827
episode:
Mary and Bob. I declare that I've made no provision for Simon.
989
01:06:23,027 --> 01:06:25,987
episode:
And the reasons for me doing that are known to my executors.
990
01:06:26,127 --> 01:06:29,167
episode:
And then external to the will, you would set out all the reasons.
991
01:06:29,407 --> 01:06:33,087
episode:
The reason for that is that there are two reasons. One's a legal reason.
992
01:06:33,127 --> 01:06:34,047
episode:
One's a pragmatic reason.
993
01:06:34,207 --> 01:06:37,687
episode:
The legal reason is anything Anything you put in your will can be scrutinized
994
01:06:37,687 --> 01:06:40,347
episode:
by a court and a judge after you're dead.
995
01:06:40,567 --> 01:06:44,187
episode:
And if you put in things that are inaccurate, it might impact.
996
01:06:44,367 --> 01:06:49,387
episode:
It's rare, but it might impact on other aspects of the will and ultimately the validity of the will.
997
01:06:49,507 --> 01:06:53,367
episode:
So if you put something stupid in the will, like I've excluded Simon because
998
01:06:53,367 --> 01:06:55,967
episode:
he never visits me and I haven't spoken to him for 20 years.
999
01:06:56,107 --> 01:06:59,007
episode:
And Simon was regularly visiting the test data.
1000
01:06:59,187 --> 01:07:03,707
episode:
That might be evidence of a delusion. So you wouldn't put that in the will.
1001
01:07:03,707 --> 01:07:08,067
episode:
And the will becomes a public document so that everyone can see it and it's
1002
01:07:08,067 --> 01:07:09,127
episode:
got to be presented to the court.
1003
01:07:10,027 --> 01:07:15,627
episode:
The other reason though from a pragmatic basis why you might not include any detail in the will,
1004
01:07:16,502 --> 01:07:22,902
episode:
is, sometimes, Simon might not care. If Simon's excluded, and the only evidence
1005
01:07:22,902 --> 01:07:26,222
episode:
is that, well, Simon's excluded for reasons that are known to my executor,
1006
01:07:26,582 --> 01:07:27,922
episode:
Simon might just take it on the chin.
1007
01:07:28,082 --> 01:07:32,162
episode:
But if you take a red rag, and if you wave it in front of his face and go,
1008
01:07:32,282 --> 01:07:36,482
episode:
well, Simon's a terrible son, and he never visits me, and his wife's horrible,
1009
01:07:36,622 --> 01:07:40,242
episode:
it's all these reasons why Simon says, hang on, that's not true.
1010
01:07:40,462 --> 01:07:41,762
episode:
I've now got to defend myself.
1011
01:07:42,042 --> 01:07:45,982
episode:
And so, Simon issues proceedings meetings to clear his name and he wouldn't have done it otherwise.
1012
01:07:46,162 --> 01:07:53,222
episode:
So, yeah. So, that's the first two ways to do it is to bland with a declaration or simply exclude.
1013
01:07:53,522 --> 01:07:57,902
episode:
But a better way, because it's generally only in a state that can be challenged.
1014
01:07:58,002 --> 01:08:01,862
episode:
So, we're talking about excluding a beneficiary on a basis that they won't be
1015
01:08:01,862 --> 01:08:04,082
episode:
able to do anything about it. They won't be able to challenge.
1016
01:08:04,242 --> 01:08:07,742
episode:
They won't be able to, as unhappy as they are, they won't be able to effectively
1017
01:08:07,742 --> 01:08:14,862
episode:
change the distribution that your client or that the person wants their estate
1018
01:08:14,862 --> 01:08:16,102
episode:
to be distributed pursuant to.
1019
01:08:16,482 --> 01:08:21,702
episode:
And so a better way of doing it is to actually not have those assets fall into the estate.
1020
01:08:21,862 --> 01:08:26,262
episode:
So if I've got a client with a million dollars in cash and two kids,
1021
01:08:26,262 --> 01:08:28,422
episode:
and one of them he wants to exclude, the other one he doesn't,
1022
01:08:28,422 --> 01:08:35,742
episode:
and there's time, I'll be saying just distribute $950,000 out while you're alive.
1023
01:08:36,022 --> 01:08:39,582
episode:
Because then when you die, you die owning $50,000. And if the son wants to argue
1024
01:08:39,582 --> 01:08:41,422
episode:
for half of $50,000, well, good luck to him.
1025
01:08:41,642 --> 01:08:47,022
episode:
So the forward estate planning comes into play. Now, that's a very bland statement.
1026
01:08:47,142 --> 01:08:49,622
episode:
You've got to think about stamp duty. You've got to think about capital gains
1027
01:08:49,622 --> 01:08:51,502
episode:
tax. You've got to think about longevity.
1028
01:08:51,642 --> 01:08:54,522
episode:
You've got to think about a lot of things and get financial advice and tax advice.
1029
01:08:54,682 --> 01:09:00,962
episode:
But the best way to exclude a beneficiary from your estate is to die without an estate.
1030
01:09:01,322 --> 01:09:04,782
episode:
And that can sometimes be achieved depending on the circumstances of your passing.
1031
01:09:07,220 --> 01:09:17,480
episode:
Wow, that's a really interesting thought. Some people want to control from beyond the grave.
1032
01:09:17,700 --> 01:09:21,840
episode:
A lot of people want to control as they are entering the grave.
1033
01:09:22,020 --> 01:09:24,120
episode:
And yeah, it can be incredibly empowering.
1034
01:09:24,500 --> 01:09:28,180
episode:
With the appropriate checks and balances, I had one client who was absolutely
1035
01:09:28,180 --> 01:09:30,520
episode:
adamant that his son was going to contest.
1036
01:09:30,700 --> 01:09:34,400
episode:
From his perspective, he'd been a very good father. He tried and tried and tried.
1037
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:38,860
episode:
But I think it was alcohol, drugs, and other bad choices that had intervened and got in the way.
1038
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:43,420
episode:
And he didn't want his daughter to suffer as a result of the son's claim,
1039
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:47,320
episode:
which was going to take six to 12 to 18 months to resolve and going to cost
1040
01:09:47,320 --> 01:09:48,840
episode:
the estate hundreds of thousands of dollars.
1041
01:09:49,020 --> 01:09:54,160
episode:
So we took him from having a net worth of about $3 million all the way down
1042
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:59,080
episode:
to about $700,000 by getting a property and putting it in the joint names of
1043
01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:02,220
episode:
him and his daughter and getting his super and making sure it went to his daughter
1044
01:10:02,220 --> 01:10:05,840
episode:
and getting money that was in cash and putting it in a trust, things like that.
1045
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:11,220
episode:
He was very unwell. He was mentally fine, but he was only going to be around for a few months.
1046
01:10:11,340 --> 01:10:14,660
episode:
It was some end-stage cancer that hadn't affected his capacity.
1047
01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:18,560
episode:
So, we got capacity assessments. We made sure he knew what he was doing, all that sort of stuff.
1048
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:23,440
episode:
And when he died, he had about $700,000 left and the son challenged.
1049
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:29,640
episode:
And the son ended up taking about $150,000 as a settlement because there was
1050
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:32,240
episode:
so little money there relative to what they thought was going to be there.
1051
01:10:32,440 --> 01:10:38,680
episode:
They found out towards the end of the negotiations that the father had divested himself of assets.
1052
01:10:39,220 --> 01:10:44,240
episode:
And unfortunately, even though that firm there resolved to be unhappy about
1053
01:10:44,240 --> 01:10:45,920
episode:
it, they couldn't do anything about it.
1054
01:10:45,980 --> 01:10:49,320
episode:
So he would be very happy if there is an afterlife, I'm sure.
1055
01:10:49,440 --> 01:10:53,160
episode:
And if I end up where he is, he will thank me and congratulate me because it
1056
01:10:53,160 --> 01:10:55,280
episode:
was very important to him. Some people don't care.
1057
01:10:55,540 --> 01:11:02,100
episode:
I'm going, I don't care what they've sorted out. To him, it was incredibly important that his son,
1058
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:07,680
episode:
he took it as a personal affront that his son would be able to do something
1059
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:11,920
episode:
after his death that my client was able to prevent before he died.
1060
01:11:12,060 --> 01:11:16,280
episode:
So this was a way of him achieving some form of self-determination so far as
1061
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:18,860
episode:
his assets were concerned. So yeah, we do a fair bit of that, Catherine.
1062
01:11:20,399 --> 01:11:24,939
episode:
And so, this question that's next that says inheritance planning,
1063
01:11:25,259 --> 01:11:29,379
episode:
really it's dependent on each individual situation, isn't it?
1064
01:11:29,559 --> 01:11:34,159
episode:
That's right. Yeah. So, some people want to, you know, minimise tax consequences
1065
01:11:34,159 --> 01:11:36,939
episode:
for their beneficiaries. So, we talk about testamentary trusts.
1066
01:11:37,199 --> 01:11:40,099
episode:
Some people want to protect them from bad relationships. So,
1067
01:11:40,099 --> 01:11:41,759
episode:
we talk about protective trusts.
1068
01:11:41,859 --> 01:11:45,859
episode:
Some people are concerned about Centlink. think, you know, they've got a child
1069
01:11:45,859 --> 01:11:49,479
episode:
with a disability and they want to maximise the prospects of the child maintaining
1070
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:50,679
episode:
a special disability pension.
1071
01:11:50,979 --> 01:11:55,619
episode:
So, there are all different ways that we can look at doing, at addressing those needs.
1072
01:11:55,759 --> 01:11:59,819
episode:
Some people write about a claim being made and yeah, it really is an opportunity
1073
01:11:59,819 --> 01:12:03,819
episode:
to, it's a bit of a, you know, not to get philosophical but it is a bit of a
1074
01:12:03,819 --> 01:12:08,859
episode:
journey of self-discovery where people find out just how important this stuff is to them.
1075
01:12:08,859 --> 01:12:12,079
episode:
To some people it's amazingly important and to
1076
01:12:12,079 --> 01:12:15,039
episode:
other people it's not it turns out it's not that important at
1077
01:12:15,039 --> 01:12:17,759
episode:
all a lot of times i send my letters of advice and they come back and
1078
01:12:17,759 --> 01:12:20,379
episode:
go yeah look down right it's fine it's all good i couldn't be bothered it's
1079
01:12:20,379 --> 01:12:23,099
episode:
you know whatever they do let them if they want to fight about it they'll fight
1080
01:12:23,099 --> 01:12:26,599
episode:
about it okay i'm not going to waste any energy on it i'll keep spending my
1081
01:12:26,599 --> 01:12:30,119
episode:
money whatever i leave that'll that's when i'm handing over the baton for them
1082
01:12:30,119 --> 01:12:35,459
episode:
but whether they're at one end of the spectrum or the other on the care factor They all want,
1083
01:12:35,539 --> 01:12:38,459
episode:
and my job is to make sure they're in a position to make an
1084
01:12:38,459 --> 01:12:43,339
episode:
informed decision about that and to take responsibility for how simple or complex
1085
01:12:43,339 --> 01:12:49,019
episode:
their estate plan is and how much or how little they want to control from beyond
1086
01:12:49,019 --> 01:12:56,299
episode:
the grave and how much they want to actually reduce their estate to take preemptive
1087
01:12:56,299 --> 01:12:58,339
episode:
strikes against potential claims being made.
1088
01:12:58,339 --> 01:13:02,279
episode:
People learn a lot about themselves when they consider their own mortality and
1089
01:13:02,279 --> 01:13:05,179
episode:
what's going to happen and what the world's going to look like without them in it.
1090
01:13:07,799 --> 01:13:14,499
episode:
And tell me, when have you seen it go quite bad, Greg, because things haven't been planned for?
1091
01:13:14,859 --> 01:13:21,579
episode:
So where we plan well, things can still go bad, but the risk is minimised.
1092
01:13:21,619 --> 01:13:27,099
episode:
Where there's some inadequate planning, it's usually people that are unwilling
1093
01:13:27,099 --> 01:13:28,519
episode:
to be honest with themselves.
1094
01:13:28,519 --> 01:13:31,439
episode:
Themselves so it's usually people that are living in
1095
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:34,179
episode:
denial you know and that i just you know they
1096
01:13:34,179 --> 01:13:37,559
episode:
just refuse to accept that the
1097
01:13:37,559 --> 01:13:43,459
episode:
wife and their kids so stepmother and the kids aren't going to get on they just
1098
01:13:43,459 --> 01:13:47,579
episode:
refuse to accept that they've got rose-colored glasses with that so i had a
1099
01:13:47,579 --> 01:13:52,319
episode:
i had a client who's who was in that situation he had a a wife and she had no
1100
01:13:52,319 --> 01:13:55,079
episode:
children and he had three children of his own.
1101
01:13:55,159 --> 01:14:00,139
episode:
And it was obvious that they didn't respect her and she had given up on trying
1102
01:14:00,139 --> 01:14:02,359
episode:
to secure their respect, but
1103
01:14:02,359 --> 01:14:05,299
episode:
he couldn't see it. And he refused to put any checks or balances in place.
1104
01:14:05,639 --> 01:14:11,999
episode:
And they argued for years about her entitlement and what adequate need was and
1105
01:14:11,999 --> 01:14:17,639
episode:
all that sort of stuff, because he just left everything to them to look after her.
1106
01:14:17,799 --> 01:14:20,259
episode:
And she didn't want to be looked after. She wanted her own money.
1107
01:14:20,319 --> 01:14:21,079
episode:
She wanted her own assets.
1108
01:14:22,619 --> 01:14:26,139
episode:
She She didn't want them to be waiting for her to die so they could get their
1109
01:14:26,139 --> 01:14:29,019
episode:
inheritance. So, yeah, when it goes wrong, it goes wrong in a big way.
1110
01:14:29,899 --> 01:14:34,319
episode:
And sometimes the planning process can address that. I often will recommend,
1111
01:14:34,539 --> 01:14:37,899
episode:
you know, and as you said, it's very bespoke, so I'll often recommend if there's
1112
01:14:37,899 --> 01:14:42,439
episode:
intractable disputes, if the only thing keeping this family together is the
1113
01:14:42,439 --> 01:14:45,659
episode:
willmaker and once the willmaker goes, people are just going to drift apart.
1114
01:14:46,579 --> 01:14:48,619
episode:
I always recommend there be a separation.
1115
01:14:48,939 --> 01:14:51,159
episode:
If they can afford it, if they've got a big enough estate –,
1116
01:14:51,978 --> 01:14:55,798
episode:
wife or husband should get that, kids should get that. If you want to keep in
1117
01:14:55,798 --> 01:14:57,558
episode:
touch, that's fine, but you don't have to.
1118
01:14:58,218 --> 01:15:01,918
episode:
Otherwise, if there's not enough money or if there's a desire to maintain assets,
1119
01:15:02,138 --> 01:15:05,878
episode:
we can do things like life interest where the partner can reside in a property,
1120
01:15:06,018 --> 01:15:07,998
episode:
but ultimately it will pass to the children.
1121
01:15:08,558 --> 01:15:11,858
episode:
They've got to be really carefully thought of and they've got to be really carefully
1122
01:15:11,858 --> 01:15:16,278
episode:
drafted and there's lots of tax and other consequences, but we can do those sort of things as well.
1123
01:15:16,598 --> 01:15:19,398
episode:
Yes, I think that's probably a longish answer your question.
1124
01:15:19,518 --> 01:15:24,438
episode:
It can go wrong very seriously, but it's usually whether or not you use a solicitor.
1125
01:15:24,438 --> 01:15:30,958
episode:
It'll go wrong if you don't think practically, pragmatically, and really honestly.
1126
01:15:31,178 --> 01:15:33,258
episode:
You've got to hold up a mirror to what's going on. You've got to say,
1127
01:15:33,318 --> 01:15:37,538
episode:
you know what, this family's dysfunctional and we need to accommodate that dysfunction.
1128
01:15:38,038 --> 01:15:41,918
episode:
I usually try to reassure my clients, Catherine, where they'll come in and they'll start whispering.
1129
01:15:41,998 --> 01:15:45,538
episode:
They go, oh, you know, because, you know, and they've got these secrets. And I go, it's fine.
1130
01:15:45,538 --> 01:15:48,698
episode:
Mine tell me warts and all and I usually don't get
1131
01:15:48,698 --> 01:15:51,818
episode:
anybody above on my dysfunction scale because
1132
01:15:51,818 --> 01:15:55,478
episode:
I've seen some pretty bad things most of the people I see that think that they
1133
01:15:55,478 --> 01:15:59,038
episode:
are the worst family in the world they're so dysfunctional they're embarrassed
1134
01:15:59,038 --> 01:16:03,878
episode:
most people are about one or two out of ten on my dysfunction level most people
1135
01:16:03,878 --> 01:16:07,838
episode:
aren't as dysfunctional as I think they are so be honest with your lawyer would
1136
01:16:07,838 --> 01:16:09,658
episode:
be my advice make sure the lawyer knows everything.
1137
01:16:11,158 --> 01:16:17,218
episode:
And I think having those early conversations around the dinner table or whatever
1138
01:16:17,218 --> 01:16:20,998
episode:
space you're having them in, in a car where no one can leave,
1139
01:16:21,298 --> 01:16:27,578
episode:
it would highlight whether you're going to have conflicts of interest or points
1140
01:16:27,578 --> 01:16:34,578
episode:
of view that then perhaps you could start planning accordingly to what you're
1141
01:16:34,578 --> 01:16:35,678
episode:
seeing actually eventually.
1142
01:16:36,658 --> 01:16:40,238
episode:
Yeah, absolutely. You might not realize that someone's had to be in their bonnet
1143
01:16:40,238 --> 01:16:44,138
episode:
for so long about something. Yeah, really? Oh, let's sort that out. Yeah, absolutely.
1144
01:16:44,498 --> 01:16:48,298
episode:
And it's about, I think it's where parents continue to be parents,
1145
01:16:48,378 --> 01:16:52,598
episode:
that even though we're probably talking now about older families where everyone
1146
01:16:52,598 --> 01:16:57,338
episode:
who's relevant is an adult, but the parents get to be parents again.
1147
01:16:57,478 --> 01:17:00,418
episode:
So they sit down with their kids that are in their 30s and 40s that
1148
01:17:00,418 --> 01:17:03,278
episode:
are twice as wealthy as them now and three times as
1149
01:17:03,278 --> 01:17:06,158
episode:
smart and they go right so this is
1150
01:17:06,158 --> 01:17:08,818
episode:
what we've decided to do mum and i've talked about it or dad and i've
1151
01:17:08,818 --> 01:17:11,518
episode:
talked about it and this is what we've decided to do and to just
1152
01:17:11,518 --> 01:17:16,238
episode:
sort of set those out now you know sarah's not doing as well as the two of you
1153
01:17:16,238 --> 01:17:19,698
episode:
so we've decided we're going to allow her to keep the house and what we're doing
1154
01:17:19,698 --> 01:17:22,918
episode:
over here is giving you the super and we think that's fair because you know
1155
01:17:22,918 --> 01:17:25,418
episode:
we this that and the other and the boys can go well i don't think that's fair
1156
01:17:25,418 --> 01:17:30,478
episode:
at all dad i mean she's had the same as us and you can discuss Gus said, it's only money, right?
1157
01:17:30,658 --> 01:17:33,858
episode:
It's not like we're still a family at the end of the day and we don't have to
1158
01:17:33,858 --> 01:17:38,278
episode:
agree with everything, but it does allow these matters to be ventilated. And I can guarantee you.
1159
01:17:39,012 --> 01:17:43,992
episode:
That if the discussion's not had and mum and dad die and Sarah gets the house
1160
01:17:43,992 --> 01:17:47,372
episode:
and the boys didn't know she was going to get it, that's when there's trouble.
1161
01:17:47,552 --> 01:17:51,692
episode:
And it's not usually just the boys and their sister, it's the in-laws.
1162
01:17:51,972 --> 01:17:53,892
episode:
It's the in-laws saying, but you deserve more.
1163
01:17:54,232 --> 01:18:00,932
episode:
And that's where an issue that could have been resolved around the kitchen table
1164
01:18:00,932 --> 01:18:04,032
episode:
or the dining room table over a couple of years then becomes intractable.
1165
01:18:04,132 --> 01:18:08,732
episode:
And once you lawyer up, things that are problematic made it become resolved
1166
01:18:08,732 --> 01:18:11,092
episode:
and become very, very firm and fixed.
1167
01:18:11,172 --> 01:18:15,632
episode:
And people like me get involved and go through the process and say hello to
1168
01:18:15,632 --> 01:18:16,792
episode:
the barristers and the judges again.
1169
01:18:17,972 --> 01:18:21,412
episode:
It's not great, but yeah. And that sounds expensive.
1170
01:18:22,072 --> 01:18:28,212
episode:
It is expensive. It's very expensive depending on which barrister you use and how it's run.
1171
01:18:28,672 --> 01:18:33,092
episode:
Mostly, to get to a mediation between an estate and a claimant,
1172
01:18:33,092 --> 01:18:37,592
episode:
you'll have spent about $50,000 and that's sort of the first pit stop.
1173
01:18:37,772 --> 01:18:41,072
episode:
And then to get to a final hearing in most estate type claims,
1174
01:18:41,172 --> 01:18:43,112
episode:
you're spending something north of $100,000.
1175
01:18:43,652 --> 01:18:47,232
episode:
It's just a horrible amount of money so that if you've got an estate that's
1176
01:18:47,232 --> 01:18:51,632
episode:
worth say $1 million or $2 million, you're spending a significant percentage
1177
01:18:51,632 --> 01:18:55,992
episode:
of the gross value of that estate for the privilege of arguing.
1178
01:18:56,272 --> 01:19:01,252
episode:
And usually, Usually, quite often, the costs you end up spending can be similar
1179
01:19:01,252 --> 01:19:07,092
episode:
to or even more than the dispute that you end up, you know, how far apart you are.
1180
01:19:07,192 --> 01:19:12,072
episode:
So, yeah, any early intervention, a colleague of mine coined the phrase preventative
1181
01:19:12,072 --> 01:19:15,312
episode:
lawyer and he sees, he saw himself and I think it's a really,
1182
01:19:15,372 --> 01:19:19,092
episode:
really good focus for estate planners who work in this space to see ourselves
1183
01:19:19,092 --> 01:19:21,592
episode:
as looking at all the possible things that.
1184
01:19:22,398 --> 01:19:26,718
episode:
Based on the family dynamic, based on an informal plus a robust conversation
1185
01:19:26,718 --> 01:19:29,498
episode:
with our clients, think of all the things that might go wrong,
1186
01:19:29,598 --> 01:19:34,658
episode:
and then trying to accommodate them and take steps to prevent them from happening.
1187
01:19:34,838 --> 01:19:38,138
episode:
And that's all we can do. I mean, that's the definition of self-determination.
1188
01:19:38,358 --> 01:19:41,118
episode:
You know, we put these advanced care plans into place in
1189
01:19:41,118 --> 01:19:44,898
episode:
the hope that medically our passing from
1190
01:19:44,898 --> 01:19:48,358
episode:
being alive to not being around is going to be characterized
1191
01:19:48,358 --> 01:19:51,438
episode:
by dignity but it's not always the case but we maximize the
1192
01:19:51,438 --> 01:19:54,918
episode:
chance of that occurring if we've got a good set of documents and
1193
01:19:54,918 --> 01:19:58,438
episode:
if you've got a good set of estate planning documents someone wants
1194
01:19:58,438 --> 01:20:01,178
episode:
to have a fight in your family they're always going to have a fight but you
1195
01:20:01,178 --> 01:20:03,938
episode:
minimize the prospect of that occurring if you've
1196
01:20:03,938 --> 01:20:07,918
episode:
got a good set of estate planning documents and if you have these conversations
1197
01:20:07,918 --> 01:20:12,678
episode:
so that not only are the documents robust but the expectations from the parents
1198
01:20:12,678 --> 01:20:17,498
episode:
are very very clear and even if I don't agree with what dad said if he told
1199
01:20:17,498 --> 01:20:21,278
episode:
me and he he looked me in the eye and he said, this is what I want and this is my will,
1200
01:20:21,438 --> 01:20:25,198
episode:
then it's much harder for me to then go to court and argue about that.
1201
01:20:27,418 --> 01:20:35,178
episode:
And what surprises me is that about 46% of Australians don't have a will,
1202
01:20:35,318 --> 01:20:38,138
episode:
roughly what the figure is.
1203
01:20:38,518 --> 01:20:44,278
episode:
And what surprises me is that these same people are going and getting their
1204
01:20:44,278 --> 01:20:49,678
episode:
tax done, putting putting extra money into their super, yet at the end of the
1205
01:20:49,678 --> 01:20:52,198
episode:
day, they're not taking the basic steps.
1206
01:20:53,358 --> 01:20:58,458
episode:
Why do you think that is? Well, I think I know from my experience that we –.
1207
01:20:59,811 --> 01:21:06,991
episode:
And we spend a lot of our time unable to actively accept our own mortality.
1208
01:21:07,231 --> 01:21:12,951
episode:
I mean, it's as simple as that. We live our life not prepared to realistically
1209
01:21:12,951 --> 01:21:15,971
episode:
consider the fact that we won't be here one day.
1210
01:21:16,151 --> 01:21:21,671
episode:
The benefit for me in working in this area, apart from the professional rewards
1211
01:21:21,671 --> 01:21:29,651
episode:
I get, is that being reminded every single day about mortality, I am drafting wills.
1212
01:21:29,651 --> 01:21:32,751
episode:
I'm doing deathbed wills. I'm administering someone's estate.
1213
01:21:32,931 --> 01:21:37,431
episode:
I have someone come in on day one, you know, very well, but just having some
1214
01:21:37,431 --> 01:21:40,891
episode:
tests and, you know, getting some bad news for a melanoma.
1215
01:21:40,991 --> 01:21:44,311
episode:
And then six weeks later, the widow comes in and says he passed away,
1216
01:21:44,531 --> 01:21:46,611
episode:
you know, and it was very, very sad at the end there.
1217
01:21:46,671 --> 01:21:51,291
episode:
Just constantly being reminded about mortality for me has become incredibly
1218
01:21:51,291 --> 01:21:55,531
episode:
life affirming because it's a reminder that it's all going to end one day and
1219
01:21:55,531 --> 01:21:57,471
episode:
who knows when and who knows how long we've got.
1220
01:21:57,671 --> 01:22:02,731
episode:
And so I'm very conscious of the fact that the end can come pretty quickly and
1221
01:22:02,731 --> 01:22:03,771
episode:
can come quite suddenly.
1222
01:22:04,531 --> 01:22:07,531
episode:
Or it can be the opposite and we can linger on and we can become unwell,
1223
01:22:07,611 --> 01:22:13,791
episode:
but the onset of debilitating illness can also be very sudden and can come on an unexpected basis.
1224
01:22:14,151 --> 01:22:20,491
episode:
And so for me, it's just an absolute no-brainer and it's not that hard to make provision for that.
1225
01:22:20,591 --> 01:22:24,611
episode:
But a lot of people that don't do the job that I've got, that don't have the
1226
01:22:24,611 --> 01:22:30,011
episode:
luxury of being reminded every day about mortality is just a refusal to accept that.
1227
01:22:30,131 --> 01:22:33,591
episode:
And it's not a criticism. There's no value judgments in that observation.
1228
01:22:33,811 --> 01:22:37,751
episode:
But you ask most people about just to start talking about death,
1229
01:22:37,811 --> 01:22:38,671
episode:
and they're just not comfortable.
1230
01:22:38,811 --> 01:22:42,831
episode:
We're not comfortable having the conversation about ourselves, about not being here.
1231
01:22:43,708 --> 01:22:47,708
episode:
So, and of course, we worry about our kids and we just can't face it, can we?
1232
01:22:47,848 --> 01:22:53,248
episode:
And that's just, it's impossible to formulate a strategy.
1233
01:22:53,388 --> 01:22:56,408
episode:
And I can deal with financial problems.
1234
01:22:56,568 --> 01:23:00,748
episode:
I can deal, I'd hate it, but if my wife left me, I'd have a way of coping with that.
1235
01:23:00,828 --> 01:23:05,848
episode:
But most people would say they've got no game plan for dealing with the process of dying.
1236
01:23:06,728 --> 01:23:10,468
episode:
I don't know what I'm going to do. And what's going to happen after you go on, I don't know.
1237
01:23:10,828 --> 01:23:15,528
episode:
So, it's just put in the too hard basket, Catherine. And I get that. I respect that.
1238
01:23:15,608 --> 01:23:20,168
episode:
But my job is to try to encourage it out of the too hard basket for a couple
1239
01:23:20,168 --> 01:23:24,008
episode:
of hours every few years. Let's sit down. We're going to shut the door.
1240
01:23:24,268 --> 01:23:28,728
episode:
Let's talk about mortality. Let's talk about what's going to happen if you lose each other.
1241
01:23:29,028 --> 01:23:30,968
episode:
Heaven forbid you lose your kids.
1242
01:23:31,288 --> 01:23:34,008
episode:
What happens if one of your kids dies before you? What about this?
1243
01:23:34,088 --> 01:23:36,508
episode:
What about that? What if they separate? Let's talk about all the things that
1244
01:23:36,508 --> 01:23:38,748
episode:
can go wrong. Let's put in some checks and balances.
1245
01:23:39,068 --> 01:23:42,488
episode:
And so when you walk out of here having the file done and closed,
1246
01:23:42,788 --> 01:23:47,628
episode:
at least you know that, well, the consequences, the financial consequences of
1247
01:23:47,628 --> 01:23:52,668
episode:
my death and the process of my passing, I've exerted a degree of will over and,
1248
01:23:54,128 --> 01:23:55,528
episode:
they're as certain as they can be.
1249
01:23:55,708 --> 01:24:00,188
episode:
And I can put it in the too hard basket again now with a jumping out,
1250
01:24:00,288 --> 01:24:03,308
episode:
with an alarm for two years time and we'll retweak it.
1251
01:24:03,408 --> 01:24:07,028
episode:
So, it's just about that. It's about taking it out of the too hard basket and
1252
01:24:07,028 --> 01:24:10,268
episode:
then putting it back in for a year or too. That's what I see my job as sometimes.
1253
01:24:12,546 --> 01:24:17,326
episode:
I like that analogy quite a lot. Now, Greg, tell me about superannuation.
1254
01:24:17,646 --> 01:24:22,926
episode:
Is that something covered in the will or is it separate? How does that work?
1255
01:24:23,506 --> 01:24:29,826
episode:
Okay. So, yeah, superannuation are assets that are owned in a superannuation trust.
1256
01:24:29,966 --> 01:24:34,206
episode:
So, superannuation is just a special type of a trust that attracts some pretty
1257
01:24:34,206 --> 01:24:35,986
episode:
good government tax benefits.
1258
01:24:36,206 --> 01:24:39,906
episode:
So, anytime you've got money in a trust like a family trust or a superannuation
1259
01:24:39,906 --> 01:24:42,906
episode:
fund, not automatically covered by your estate.
1260
01:24:43,246 --> 01:24:47,706
episode:
The way that I describe it is that when you die, the trust keeps going.
1261
01:24:47,826 --> 01:24:51,746
episode:
You don't own the assets at the date of your death. The trust owns them,
1262
01:24:51,786 --> 01:24:53,126
episode:
and the trust keeps going.
1263
01:24:53,266 --> 01:24:56,626
episode:
Now, with super, there are some pretty strict rules about getting the money
1264
01:24:56,626 --> 01:25:00,806
episode:
out of the trust pretty quickly after death, but the family trust, there aren't.
1265
01:25:00,986 --> 01:25:03,886
episode:
With a family trust, the family trust doesn't even know that you're dead.
1266
01:25:03,946 --> 01:25:06,546
episode:
You die, and the family trust just keeps going because you're just a passenger
1267
01:25:06,546 --> 01:25:09,646
episode:
in the backseat of the car and the trust keeps going.
1268
01:25:09,986 --> 01:25:14,686
episode:
With super and with family trust, you have to look at things specifically.
1269
01:25:15,086 --> 01:25:20,166
episode:
A simple will is generally not going to be enough for you to be able to work
1270
01:25:20,166 --> 01:25:24,386
episode:
out what happens with your super after you die, what happens with your trust after you die.
1271
01:25:24,546 --> 01:25:28,146
episode:
You usually have to look at the super deed and do what's called like a nomination.
1272
01:25:28,426 --> 01:25:32,466
episode:
You can do a nomination which can be binding, which will require the trustee
1273
01:25:32,466 --> 01:25:34,066
episode:
to pay the super in a particular way.
1274
01:25:34,206 --> 01:25:37,766
episode:
And there's only a limited number of recipients that you can nominate under
1275
01:25:37,766 --> 01:25:42,006
episode:
the superannuation law, or it can be non-binding, which in my personal view
1276
01:25:42,006 --> 01:25:45,366
episode:
is just a waste of time because a non-binding nomination is just an expression
1277
01:25:45,366 --> 01:25:47,366
episode:
of a wish and it doesn't have to be followed.
1278
01:25:47,606 --> 01:25:52,406
episode:
So, if you've got super, and just to wrap this up and give an example,
1279
01:25:52,506 --> 01:25:56,866
episode:
if you're someone who's got assets in your own name, you've got super and you've
1280
01:25:56,866 --> 01:25:59,906
episode:
got a family trust, and say you've got an asset overseas.
1281
01:26:00,366 --> 01:26:02,806
episode:
You're probably going to need a will for your local assets.
1282
01:26:03,226 --> 01:26:06,166
episode:
You're going to have to look at your trust deed of the family trust to work
1283
01:26:06,166 --> 01:26:09,846
episode:
out what happens to the trust after you go and put some checks and balances in place.
1284
01:26:10,246 --> 01:26:13,046
episode:
You're going to have to do a nomination for your super, okay,
1285
01:26:13,126 --> 01:26:14,546
episode:
to work out where that's going to go.
1286
01:26:14,646 --> 01:26:19,046
episode:
And you're going to have to do a will overseas to work out what happens overseas.
1287
01:26:19,266 --> 01:26:21,746
episode:
So, that's the sort of suite of documents that you would need.
1288
01:26:21,926 --> 01:26:24,286
episode:
And then if, say, in five years' time, your accountant says,
1289
01:26:24,366 --> 01:26:27,446
episode:
oh, let's get rid of the super fund, it's all too hard, then that's when you'd
1290
01:26:27,446 --> 01:26:30,106
episode:
come back to see a lawyer and say, we got rid of the super fund,
1291
01:26:30,166 --> 01:26:32,106
episode:
so how does that impact on the documents that are left?
1292
01:26:32,106 --> 01:26:35,426
episode:
And do we just leave those in place or do we do another, you know?
1293
01:26:35,426 --> 01:26:36,366
episode:
So, yeah, good question.
1294
01:26:36,426 --> 01:26:38,846
episode:
Super always requires a sort of a second look.
1295
01:26:39,566 --> 01:26:46,266
episode:
I think everyone's now rushing to their super documents to see who their nominated beneficiaries are.
1296
01:26:47,186 --> 01:26:53,846
episode:
Is there any other advice that you'd like to provide people or encouragement?
1297
01:26:55,046 --> 01:26:59,446
episode:
No, look, just generally my business model, and I think it's a business model
1298
01:26:59,446 --> 01:27:06,726
episode:
a lot of my colleagues share, is never be worried, embarrassed or concerned about ringing up and,
1299
01:27:07,470 --> 01:27:10,250
episode:
speaking to someone like me one-on-one there's lots
1300
01:27:10,250 --> 01:27:13,090
episode:
and lots of urban myths don't do the the the doctor google
1301
01:27:13,090 --> 01:27:15,970
episode:
the lawyer google thing there's so much misinformation out there
1302
01:27:15,970 --> 01:27:18,830
episode:
on the internet use resources like the resource that
1303
01:27:18,830 --> 01:27:21,790
episode:
you've created which is well considered which is you know a lot
1304
01:27:21,790 --> 01:27:26,570
episode:
of work has gone into and which is is is is a really valuable resource and gives
1305
01:27:26,570 --> 01:27:31,370
episode:
accurate and timely information use resources like that or you know get in touch
1306
01:27:31,370 --> 01:27:35,670
episode:
email if i get emails you know you don't know me but i just wanted to pick your
1307
01:27:35,670 --> 01:27:39,210
episode:
brain on a couple of things i hope you don't mind, we're more than happy to,
1308
01:27:39,370 --> 01:27:43,590
episode:
most of the people that are professionals like me, whether it's lawyers or accountants,
1309
01:27:43,590 --> 01:27:48,810
episode:
are more than happy to spend time to create a bit of clarity and to demystify,
1310
01:27:49,010 --> 01:27:51,430
episode:
particularly in an area like this where there are lots of urban myths,
1311
01:27:51,510 --> 01:27:54,750
episode:
you know, the government gets everything if you die without a will, or why do a will?
1312
01:27:54,870 --> 01:27:56,890
episode:
They can just be contested. They're a waste of time, you know,
1313
01:27:56,890 --> 01:28:01,470
episode:
all of that sort of stuff that has a tiny degree of truth in it,
1314
01:28:01,510 --> 01:28:05,230
episode:
but, you know, is only the start of the whole sort of conversation.
1315
01:28:05,350 --> 01:28:09,950
episode:
So, I'd encourage Get in touch with people like me or go to reputable sources.
1316
01:28:10,310 --> 01:28:13,270
episode:
Government publications, your publication, things like that,
1317
01:28:13,270 --> 01:28:18,130
episode:
that are clearly reputable, you know, that have been researched and find out for yourself.
1318
01:28:18,290 --> 01:28:22,230
episode:
And then when you've got a list of questions, maybe make a time to see someone
1319
01:28:22,230 --> 01:28:25,770
episode:
like me and say, right, well, mum died and we weren't happy with how that went.
1320
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So now we want to get our affairs in order and bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.
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The other thing I'd say is when it comes to all professionals,
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doctors, lawyers, it's a two-way interview process that just because you make
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an appointment with someone, if the chemistry is not there, if the communication
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isn't, then find someone else.
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That you're entrusting – and I don't take it for granted and the people that
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I work with regularly don't either – that you're entrusting us with really important
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stuff and we don't take that for granted and we need to be able to make sure
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you understand what we're telling you and we understand what you're telling
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- So, it's a two-way interview process.
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Find someone that you can trust and respect and try to keep that person for
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as long as you can because it's a really important asset for you to have moving forward.
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That's great advice. I really appreciate that, Greg. And thank you so much for your time today.
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That's all right. Again, thanks for the opportunity. It's been great talking to you. Thanks, Greg.
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outro:
We hope you enjoyed today's episode of Don't Be Caught Dead.
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outro:
Brought to you by Critical Info.
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outro:
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outro:
heard, we'd love for you to let us know.
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outro:
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outro:
Subscribe so you don't miss out on new episodes. If you can spare a few moments,
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01:29:43,190 --> 01:29:47,010
outro:
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outro:
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outro:
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outro:
for more information and loads of resources.
Read Less
Resources
- Contact Greg Russo via his website here
- Critical Info Resource Hub
- My loved one died, what do I do now?
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