Rituals of Healing: Swimming, Community, and the Ocean
Listen now
About this episode
The ocean has a raw, powerful way of healing us—body, mind, and soul. In this episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, I'm joined by Fiona Basile, an internationally acclaimed photographer and writer who discovered that open water swimming is far more than just a hobby. It’s a lifeline, a community, and a space where stories of resilience and transformation come to life. Her stunning book, Immerse, shares faces and places shaped by the healing embrace of Melbourne’s Port Phillip Bay.
Fiona’s journey into open water swimming began during the challenging COVID lockdowns and quickly became a daily ritual that transformed her world. Through her lens—and interviews with 35 incredible swimmers—Immerse tells stories of people who found courage, connection, and hope in cold, shared waters. Their stories reveal how swimming can change not only bodies but the way we face life, death, and everything in between.
Beyond the ocean, Fiona’s storytelling took her to Rwanda, where she witnessed stories of deep forgiveness and healing in a country still rising from its painful past. These moments of grace remind us all how powerful it can be to share our stories, face our fears, and embrace the connections that make life meaningful. This episode invites you to dive into the water, community, and stories that inspire us to live fully—even in the face of death.
If you enjoyed this episode, please let us know! Share your thoughts, subscribe, and help us spread the word about the importance of discussing death openly.
Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine
Show notes
Guest Bio
Internationally Acclaimed Photographer and Writer
Fiona Basile is an internationally award-winning photographer and writer who loves traversing the globe in search of faces and places that enrich our world. A lover of open waters, she’s taken to swimming in Melbourne’s Port Phillip Bay as often as possible, which has been the inspiration behind her latest photographic book, Immerse, and wall art collection, ‘Ocean Swimmers’ and ‘Ocean Deep’.
Fiona Basile in Malawi with Gab and Chantal.
Fiona Basile with the Seaford swimming community.
Gaby's hair shaving ritual in July 2023 and celebration of life in November 2023.
USA photo exhibition of photos from Malawi with Princess Mary of Denmark, now Queen Mary.
Summary
Key points from our discussion:
- The transformative power of open water swimming and community connection.
- How storytelling illuminates the human experience, especially around adversity and grief.
- The grounding power of rituals and being in nature.
- Deep insights from Fiona’s experiences in Rwanda on resilience and forgiveness.
Transcript
1
00:00:02,340 --> 00:00:08,285
When I think of the level of forgiveness
that people have had to come to, I,
2
00:00:08,430 --> 00:00:14,280
I have nothing to complain about,
like women whose sons or husbands
3
00:00:14,310 --> 00:00:16,620
children were killed by the neighbor.
4
00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:22,800
They now visit that man in prison
and have adopted him as their son
5
00:00:23,100 --> 00:00:24,900
out of forgiveness and because.
6
... Read More
1
00:00:02,340 --> 00:00:08,285
When I think of the level of forgiveness
that people have had to come to, I,
2
00:00:08,430 --> 00:00:14,280
I have nothing to complain about,
like women whose sons or husbands
3
00:00:14,310 --> 00:00:16,620
children were killed by the neighbor.
4
00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:22,800
They now visit that man in prison
and have adopted him as their son
5
00:00:23,100 --> 00:00:24,900
out of forgiveness and because.
6
00:00:25,540 --> 00:00:28,840
They don't want the violence
and that cycle to continue.
7
00:00:31,390 --> 00:00:36,070
Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a
podcast encouraging open conversations
8
00:00:36,070 --> 00:00:38,470
about dying and the death of a loved one.
9
00:00:39,010 --> 00:00:42,550
I'm your host, Katherine Ashton,
founder of Critical Info.
10
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,980
And I'm helping to bring your
stories of death back to life
11
00:00:47,010 --> 00:00:51,240
because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.
12
00:00:54,570 --> 00:00:55,470
Don't be caught dead.
13
00:00:55,470 --> 00:00:58,950
Acknowledges the lands of the cool
and nations, and recognizes their
14
00:00:58,950 --> 00:01:01,650
connection to land, sea, and community.
15
00:01:01,950 --> 00:01:06,060
We pay our respects to their elders
past, present, and emerging, and
16
00:01:06,060 --> 00:01:09,930
extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First
17
00:01:09,930 --> 00:01:11,760
Nation peoples around the globe.
18
00:01:15,210 --> 00:01:16,260
Today I'm speaking
19
00:01:16,260 --> 00:01:18,940
with Fiona Basile, an international
20
00:01:18,990 --> 00:01:23,070
award-winning photographer and writer
who's traversing the globe in search of
21
00:01:23,070 --> 00:01:25,770
faces and places that enrich our world.
22
00:01:26,460 --> 00:01:28,140
A lover of open waters.
23
00:01:28,380 --> 00:01:32,250
She's taken to swimming in Melbourne's
Port Phillip Bay as often as possible,
24
00:01:32,700 --> 00:01:35,580
which has been an inspiration
behind her Latest photographic
25
00:01:35,580 --> 00:01:40,680
book, immerse and Wall Collections,
ocean Swimmers, and Ocean Deep.
26
00:01:41,369 --> 00:01:43,589
Thank you so much for
being with us today, Fiona.
27
00:01:44,009 --> 00:01:45,419
Thanks so much for having me.
28
00:01:45,419 --> 00:01:46,110
It's a joy.
29
00:01:47,429 --> 00:01:51,660
Now I've had the pleasure of getting
to know you over these probably
30
00:01:51,660 --> 00:01:56,339
last 18 months, two years through
the Frankston Business Collective.
31
00:01:56,580 --> 00:02:02,309
Uh, and I was extremely excited
when I saw the beautiful book
32
00:02:02,339 --> 00:02:03,960
Immerse that you launched.
33
00:02:04,169 --> 00:02:05,220
Was it last year now?
34
00:02:05,940 --> 00:02:10,680
Uh, it was officially
launched in November, 2023.
35
00:02:10,949 --> 00:02:12,480
So now over a year.
36
00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:16,230
So all of last year was about
traveling with it, the author
37
00:02:16,230 --> 00:02:20,579
talks, sharing it, getting out into
the shops, and yeah, sharing the
38
00:02:20,579 --> 00:02:22,109
stories and photos of Immersed.
39
00:02:22,109 --> 00:02:26,010
So it's over a year old
now, coming probably up
40
00:02:26,010 --> 00:02:27,149
to 18 months.
41
00:02:27,149 --> 00:02:27,450
It's amazing.
42
00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:28,620
Oh my goodness.
43
00:02:28,704 --> 00:02:30,840
And, and so, okay.
44
00:02:30,870 --> 00:02:37,709
18 months it is then, and I, what I love
about it is that it's not just about
45
00:02:37,709 --> 00:02:39,780
the photos, it's about the storytelling.
46
00:02:40,260 --> 00:02:42,450
So tell me, how did you get started?
47
00:02:42,945 --> 00:02:48,675
I think immerse started once I had a
body of photographs that I had collected
48
00:02:48,675 --> 00:02:51,045
from my own open water swimming practice.
49
00:02:51,405 --> 00:02:56,175
I have a GoPro that I use in the water
and I had been posting to social media
50
00:02:56,175 --> 00:03:00,045
and there'd been a really positive
response to the impact of those
51
00:03:00,045 --> 00:03:04,785
photographs on social media, social,
and then once, because I started my
52
00:03:04,785 --> 00:03:09,585
open water swimming practice in COVID
in that second year, as many people did.
53
00:03:10,035 --> 00:03:15,315
And once the restrictions lifted, you
know, we started, uh, there was a group
54
00:03:15,315 --> 00:03:16,725
of us that were swimming together.
55
00:03:16,725 --> 00:03:19,605
We started to get to know each
other personally, spending
56
00:03:19,605 --> 00:03:21,045
more time with each other.
57
00:03:21,660 --> 00:03:25,965
And by the end of 2022, I
had this body of photos.
58
00:03:26,265 --> 00:03:31,605
But equally, I just felt in what I
was hearing with the stories and the
59
00:03:31,605 --> 00:03:35,474
people who are now starting to call my
friends, I just thought there could be
60
00:03:35,474 --> 00:03:39,795
something in this in terms of sharing
the stories, sharing the photographs.
61
00:03:40,245 --> 00:03:41,385
But I must admit.
62
00:03:41,850 --> 00:03:47,640
When the decision to start creating
immerse happened in that January of 2023.
63
00:03:47,969 --> 00:03:52,290
At that point, I thought it was mostly
going to be about the body of photographs
64
00:03:52,290 --> 00:03:56,550
and you know, really celebrating the
beauty of our bay and open water swimming.
65
00:03:57,209 --> 00:04:04,350
But once I started to sit down with people
and hear their stories and hear how being
66
00:04:04,350 --> 00:04:09,600
in the water had impacted their lives
positively, how being part of community
67
00:04:09,630 --> 00:04:11,790
had had such a big impact on their lives.
68
00:04:12,390 --> 00:04:17,730
I just came to understand that this book
is going to be about more than photos.
69
00:04:17,730 --> 00:04:19,590
It was going to be about people's stories.
70
00:04:19,950 --> 00:04:21,420
And by way of example.
71
00:04:22,005 --> 00:04:26,145
The first person that I sat down with
was a gentleman who, you know, I'd
72
00:04:26,145 --> 00:04:30,945
been swimming with for a year and you
know, you think you know someone, but
73
00:04:30,945 --> 00:04:35,415
it wasn't until I sat down with him
and he shared that he had actually
74
00:04:35,415 --> 00:04:40,095
considered taking his life in the water
and it was the water that now saved
75
00:04:40,095 --> 00:04:41,985
him and being part of the community.
76
00:04:42,555 --> 00:04:45,465
And over the course of the
interviews, there were 35
77
00:04:45,465 --> 00:04:47,115
people who feature in immerse.
78
00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,620
That wasn't an uncommon story
where people really shared that
79
00:04:52,190 --> 00:04:54,320
the water had saved them literally.
80
00:04:54,440 --> 00:05:01,520
And so, yeah, I think immerse like the
ocean evolved, it had its ebbs and flows,
81
00:05:01,820 --> 00:05:08,090
but in the end it became about showcasing
and celebrating the beauty of the ocean,
82
00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:15,170
but also sharing these stories of how the
water and how being part of community has
83
00:05:15,170 --> 00:05:19,700
really had an impact, a positive impact
on the people who feature in immerse.
84
00:05:19,970 --> 00:05:25,310
So yeah, I mean it's had an impact in
terms of community, uh, connection, a
85
00:05:25,310 --> 00:05:29,330
deeper connection to ourselves being
in the water, deeper connection to each
86
00:05:29,330 --> 00:05:34,580
other, to the natural world, the water,
you know, even to the transcendence.
87
00:05:34,580 --> 00:05:36,500
So I just think.
88
00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,670
Yeah, it's an, it was an evolving
process, but what has now Eventuated
89
00:05:40,700 --> 00:05:46,190
is a beautiful book that shares the
photographs and shares these very
90
00:05:46,430 --> 00:05:52,760
heartfelt, raw, inspiring, moving
stories, which I will forever be
91
00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,050
grateful to those swimmers who said yes
to being part of the Immerse project
92
00:05:57,650 --> 00:05:58,460
and what is it?
93
00:05:58,460 --> 00:06:04,310
Because, uh, I recently had an experience
where we were invited to do a, a cold
94
00:06:04,310 --> 00:06:06,350
water, early morning cold water dip.
95
00:06:06,710 --> 00:06:09,560
I have to say that I wasn't
brave enough to do that.
96
00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,730
I was concerned about how my,
my nerves might react on my,
97
00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:15,365
my leg with my chronic pain.
98
00:06:15,745 --> 00:06:18,590
But I, I opted for the,
the walk along the beach.
99
00:06:18,590 --> 00:06:22,490
But I did say that I, as part of
a recent festival, I did do it.
100
00:06:22,970 --> 00:06:27,050
I actually went and did the sauna and
then the dip and in the bay and the
101
00:06:27,050 --> 00:06:29,360
sauna and the dip, and, and I'm like.
102
00:06:29,985 --> 00:06:32,415
I can see the attraction to this.
103
00:06:32,415 --> 00:06:36,015
I think for me personally, it was the
sauna that I was more attracted to.
104
00:06:36,015 --> 00:06:41,805
But, but tell me what is it that
that is about the experience that you
105
00:06:41,805 --> 00:06:46,395
think that is something that motivates
you to get out of bed every morning?
106
00:06:46,395 --> 00:06:49,034
Like what is it like, can you talk
me through the process of how you
107
00:06:49,034 --> 00:06:55,125
started and the impact that you felt
personally, and then why you still do it?
108
00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:56,070
Yes.
109
00:06:56,280 --> 00:07:01,410
So why I started was taking you
back to the second year of COVID,
110
00:07:01,470 --> 00:07:06,600
that deep, those restrictions that
we had previous to COVID Lockdowns.
111
00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,190
I was an avid traveler.
112
00:07:08,220 --> 00:07:13,080
I would often spend time overseas for my
photography and writing work, and I love.
113
00:07:13,345 --> 00:07:15,715
Traveling, it brings me a lot of life.
114
00:07:16,465 --> 00:07:22,225
So by the second year of our lockdowns,
there was one evening in June, I just
115
00:07:22,225 --> 00:07:26,905
decided I need to get up tomorrow
morning, take my camera gear down
116
00:07:26,905 --> 00:07:30,535
to the water and just take some
photographs for the pure joy of it.
117
00:07:31,135 --> 00:07:32,455
And so that's what I did.
118
00:07:32,455 --> 00:07:37,705
It was the 3rd of June, 2021, and
I was walking down the Seaford Pier
119
00:07:37,705 --> 00:07:42,595
with my camera gear, and that's when
I noticed a small group of swimmers.
120
00:07:42,655 --> 00:07:46,555
And off Seaford Pier, we have
a series of marker poles, and
121
00:07:46,555 --> 00:07:48,775
they're about 150 meters off shore.
122
00:07:49,225 --> 00:07:53,335
Well, when I had gotten to the end of the
pier and this small group of swimmers were
123
00:07:53,335 --> 00:07:59,905
at one of those poles, a pot of dolphins
swam by, which was just so exhilarating.
124
00:07:59,905 --> 00:08:02,035
And I thought, well, if this
was the reason I was meant to
125
00:08:02,035 --> 00:08:03,745
be here for this experience.
126
00:08:03,945 --> 00:08:04,455
That's it.
127
00:08:04,755 --> 00:08:06,405
And I videotaped it.
128
00:08:06,405 --> 00:08:07,665
So it's on my website.
129
00:08:07,905 --> 00:08:10,485
The video you hear the
swimmers, they go, wow.
130
00:08:10,485 --> 00:08:11,025
Wow.
131
00:08:11,025 --> 00:08:16,035
Because the dolphins are swimming
past them and it was amazing.
132
00:08:16,485 --> 00:08:21,675
And so that encounter, when I had walked
back to the shore, one of the swimmers
133
00:08:22,065 --> 00:08:23,865
had invited me, her name's Karen.
134
00:08:23,865 --> 00:08:26,235
She said, why don't you come,
we are here every morning.
135
00:08:26,445 --> 00:08:27,645
Come along tomorrow.
136
00:08:28,065 --> 00:08:32,325
And anyway, to cut a very long story
short, I did go back the next day
137
00:08:32,565 --> 00:08:35,414
and that was the 4th of June, 2021.
138
00:08:35,445 --> 00:08:36,795
It was freezing.
139
00:08:37,005 --> 00:08:41,835
There is the photograph in immerse of
that first time I dipped in the bay,
140
00:08:41,835 --> 00:08:43,635
taken by one of the other swimmers.
141
00:08:43,995 --> 00:08:46,425
And I'm red raw 'cause it's freezing.
142
00:08:46,995 --> 00:08:47,895
And so.
143
00:08:48,479 --> 00:08:54,540
I suppose little would I know
months later the impact that that
144
00:08:54,630 --> 00:08:58,979
decision would make in my life, or
the impact it would have in my life.
145
00:08:59,729 --> 00:09:02,579
So for me personally, it's the physical.
146
00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:07,349
You know, I started in winter, so there's
the adrenaline, there's the dopamine,
147
00:09:07,349 --> 00:09:10,079
there's all of those good endorphins.
148
00:09:10,589 --> 00:09:12,305
I suppose in that time of COVID.
149
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,910
Even though we were keeping our
distance and coming down in our masks,
150
00:09:17,209 --> 00:09:19,670
it still gave us a social interaction.
151
00:09:19,670 --> 00:09:23,510
And it was something so, you know,
it gave us such life, you know, there
152
00:09:23,510 --> 00:09:27,170
was laughter, you're screaming and
squealing because it's freezing.
153
00:09:27,620 --> 00:09:32,120
So there's that social interaction,
the emotional, you know, in terms
154
00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:37,670
of creating new friends and creating
this new habit and new friendships
155
00:09:37,670 --> 00:09:41,060
local, because we are all confined
to that five kilometer radius.
156
00:09:41,300 --> 00:09:46,130
And so we were all in this, you know,
washing machine of the bay, this our
157
00:09:46,130 --> 00:09:48,859
area here together, experiencing that.
158
00:09:49,550 --> 00:09:53,869
And then I certainly, I come from a
Catholic faith background, but I do
159
00:09:53,869 --> 00:10:00,740
believe in God and just that wonder and
awe of being in the ocean at sunrise.
160
00:10:02,145 --> 00:10:07,155
The beauty, the ever changing light
as a photographer in 10 minutes,
161
00:10:07,155 --> 00:10:11,655
the light can change from before
the sun is up over the horizon.
162
00:10:11,655 --> 00:10:15,255
It could be the Moy, pinks and blues.
163
00:10:15,495 --> 00:10:20,295
And then as the sun comes up, you get
the golden yellows and oranges, and
164
00:10:20,295 --> 00:10:24,135
then that metallic blue as it's sort
of getting more harsh, the light.
165
00:10:24,675 --> 00:10:29,865
And so that beauty is, you know, uh.
166
00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,870
Sometimes a bit unexplainable because
you have to be in it to feel it.
167
00:10:33,870 --> 00:10:39,360
And you know, I suppose thinking about,
well this is how I get to start my day.
168
00:10:39,420 --> 00:10:44,640
Immersed in the water, surrounded by
this beauty, witnessing the changing
169
00:10:44,700 --> 00:10:48,000
light, being with friends, laughing.
170
00:10:48,030 --> 00:10:49,290
'cause we do laugh a lot.
171
00:10:49,770 --> 00:10:57,750
And now, so it's been about three and
a half years, so 2021 and we are 25.
172
00:10:57,750 --> 00:10:58,950
It'll be my fourth year.
173
00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,590
On the 4th of June, 2025.
174
00:11:02,310 --> 00:11:05,250
You know, it has become a daily practice.
175
00:11:05,310 --> 00:11:08,070
I mean obviously there are some
days I miss if I'm unwell or if
176
00:11:08,070 --> 00:11:10,080
I'm traveling, but otherwise.
177
00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,720
It's a daily practice and it's a daily
practice now for many people since
178
00:11:14,750 --> 00:11:21,080
COVID and since open water swimming has
become more well known and appreciated.
179
00:11:21,170 --> 00:11:22,430
More people are doing it.
180
00:11:22,820 --> 00:11:24,560
So I think it's all of those things.
181
00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:27,290
Catherine, I mean, I've
experienced it personally.
182
00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:30,200
I can't imagine my life now without it.
183
00:11:30,680 --> 00:11:35,600
But anecdotally, being a, a journalist
and a photographer and capturing
184
00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:41,210
people's stories anecdotally, you
know, I hear those similar themes about
185
00:11:41,570 --> 00:11:46,910
the mental health, the benefits from
mental health, that clarity and social
186
00:11:46,910 --> 00:11:48,950
interaction, and the friendships.
187
00:11:49,250 --> 00:11:53,660
Without a doubt, the sense of
community comes always to the fore.
188
00:11:53,660 --> 00:11:58,340
The fact that we have a beautiful group
of people that we can enjoy this beautiful
189
00:11:58,340 --> 00:12:01,130
practice with, and when it's not a club.
190
00:12:01,829 --> 00:12:02,969
There's no rules.
191
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,040
People are responsible for themselves.
192
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,740
It's free, it's accessible.
193
00:12:07,740 --> 00:12:09,120
We're able to enjoy it.
194
00:12:09,209 --> 00:12:15,719
And yeah, so I think for all of those
reasons, that's why I continue to
195
00:12:15,719 --> 00:12:21,479
get into the Bay when it's 13 degrees
and getting colder and why many of us
196
00:12:21,479 --> 00:12:24,689
still do and why it continues to grow.
197
00:12:24,780 --> 00:12:29,130
And you know, our stories, I've traveled
with Immerse across to the UK and I've
198
00:12:29,130 --> 00:12:30,959
done a couple of author talks over there.
199
00:12:31,620 --> 00:12:35,849
The stories are similar in terms
of that, that love of being in the
200
00:12:35,849 --> 00:12:41,790
water and the beauty and the social
connection, the laughter, the banter.
201
00:12:42,209 --> 00:12:42,630
Yeah.
202
00:12:42,630 --> 00:12:43,859
And we are so lucky here.
203
00:12:44,010 --> 00:12:47,939
We have this beautiful resource,
port Phillip Bay most of the time.
204
00:12:47,939 --> 00:12:48,689
It's fantastic.
205
00:12:48,689 --> 00:12:49,410
It's clean.
206
00:12:49,709 --> 00:12:54,810
And so for us to be able to really enjoy
it and to feel that gratitude for that
207
00:12:54,810 --> 00:12:58,020
as well is, yeah, it's life changing.
208
00:12:58,050 --> 00:12:59,339
It is life changing.
209
00:12:59,865 --> 00:13:02,835
Yeah, and it has been for me and it has
been for many people, and that's what
210
00:13:02,835 --> 00:13:07,125
I keep hearing as I continue to speak
with people and interview them and
211
00:13:07,575 --> 00:13:09,765
hear about what is it about the water.
212
00:13:09,915 --> 00:13:15,165
I think the water is healing itself,
being in the water, by the water.
213
00:13:15,645 --> 00:13:20,055
I'm sure scientifically they've done
all the tests to tell us that it's of so
214
00:13:20,055 --> 00:13:25,335
much benefit, but certainly anecdotally,
I can speak from personal experience of
215
00:13:25,335 --> 00:13:30,555
just how beneficial it's been, as can all
of the people I've interviewed as well.
216
00:13:31,665 --> 00:13:37,215
Is it also that regularity of perhaps
ritual that every morning you, you get
217
00:13:37,215 --> 00:13:45,015
up and, and you are seeing parts of
of nature and the world that not many
218
00:13:45,015 --> 00:13:50,625
people get to see or, or even perhaps
don't stop to take the time to see.
219
00:13:51,705 --> 00:13:53,655
Yeah, I think you raise a good point.
220
00:13:53,655 --> 00:13:58,395
There is certainly a ritual about it,
even from the night before, you know
221
00:13:58,395 --> 00:14:02,625
when you're preparing all of your swim
gear and getting everything ready so
222
00:14:02,625 --> 00:14:06,675
that it's an easy thing to just get
up, put your bathers on your jacket,
223
00:14:06,735 --> 00:14:08,595
and grab your bucket and go down.
224
00:14:09,255 --> 00:14:10,815
And then there's the ritual.
225
00:14:10,965 --> 00:14:16,485
Of when, for instance, I arrive
or we arrive, we tend to walk down
226
00:14:16,485 --> 00:14:19,785
to the end of Seaford Pier because
we just like to check out what the
227
00:14:19,785 --> 00:14:21,555
water's doing, how clear is it?
228
00:14:21,615 --> 00:14:21,885
Hmm.
229
00:14:21,945 --> 00:14:26,295
Can we see any fish, any banjo,
sharks, any stingrays, just
230
00:14:26,295 --> 00:14:30,255
checking out the conditions and
we just like to walk out, we chat.
231
00:14:30,315 --> 00:14:34,755
It's just like a touch base and you know,
then we come back and then there's a
232
00:14:34,755 --> 00:14:38,985
little bit more banter and then probably
15, 20 minutes has, has passed and it's
233
00:14:38,985 --> 00:14:40,935
like, I suppose we should get in now.
234
00:14:41,265 --> 00:14:44,745
And, and then, you know, it's
the getting in at the moment
235
00:14:44,835 --> 00:14:46,575
because it's starting to get cold.
236
00:14:46,755 --> 00:14:51,555
Certainly there is, I feel it is, uh,
urging on addiction because you're
237
00:14:51,555 --> 00:14:57,045
really, you are feeling those endorphins
going and there's more of a pool in the
238
00:14:57,045 --> 00:14:58,995
body because you want that hit again.
239
00:14:59,235 --> 00:15:02,265
Whereas in summer it's a bit
easier, it's warm, it's lovely.
240
00:15:02,685 --> 00:15:05,595
But the other essential ritual, which.
241
00:15:05,895 --> 00:15:09,015
Is a must is the coffee afterwards.
242
00:15:09,345 --> 00:15:12,945
You know, we all gather
afterwards for a coffee.
243
00:15:12,945 --> 00:15:13,935
We're all rugged up.
244
00:15:13,935 --> 00:15:19,185
We're, you know, in our socks and our
funky sandals and we're all looking like
245
00:15:19,185 --> 00:15:26,505
the next top models, not we wa in our big,
uh, toasty jackets and we get to the cafe.
246
00:15:26,715 --> 00:15:30,915
But that is certainly part of the
ritual as well because, you know, we've
247
00:15:30,915 --> 00:15:33,165
been in the water, we're exhilarated.
248
00:15:33,345 --> 00:15:39,135
We've probably seen, you know, some marine
life or some fish if we're really lucky.
249
00:15:39,225 --> 00:15:41,295
We've had an encounter with dolphins.
250
00:15:41,775 --> 00:15:47,865
We had one of our swimmers, Clive,
he had a calf, its mother and
251
00:15:47,865 --> 00:15:50,805
the bull dolphin for 10 minutes.
252
00:15:51,150 --> 00:15:55,680
Swimming around him and
he was on cloud nine.
253
00:15:55,680 --> 00:16:00,540
But in his retelling the story,
we were all there with him.
254
00:16:00,630 --> 00:16:06,570
You know, the joy and, yeah, I suppose
again, that opportunity just to connect,
255
00:16:07,050 --> 00:16:08,670
we're all very different people.
256
00:16:08,670 --> 00:16:12,780
We come from different walks of
life, we're different ages, and yet
257
00:16:12,780 --> 00:16:14,880
the water is the great equalizer.
258
00:16:14,939 --> 00:16:16,980
And so it's what brings us together.
259
00:16:16,980 --> 00:16:20,010
So afterwards for coffee, you know,
there's that continued banter.
260
00:16:20,010 --> 00:16:23,370
We talk about the swim, how cold it was,
what the conditions were like, what the
261
00:16:23,370 --> 00:16:25,170
wind was doing, what the tide was doing.
262
00:16:25,170 --> 00:16:31,560
Well, so yeah, and, and maybe the
other thing about ritual I've come to
263
00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:37,980
learn there is something about starting
the day with your feet grounded.
264
00:16:38,355 --> 00:16:44,475
In nature, so in the sand, and then in
the water, you know, it is an opportunity
265
00:16:44,505 --> 00:16:50,115
to just disconnect and for those of
us who pray, it's an opportunity to
266
00:16:50,115 --> 00:16:52,245
just take a moment to say thank you.
267
00:16:53,175 --> 00:16:57,765
One of the really interesting things
in the latest rounds of interviews
268
00:16:57,765 --> 00:17:04,694
that I've done with people is there's
been a lot more connection to family
269
00:17:04,694 --> 00:17:10,694
and friends who have died and by
our friends being in the water.
270
00:17:10,995 --> 00:17:13,905
It's been their way to remember them.
271
00:17:13,995 --> 00:17:17,085
Like they might say prayer because
they had a special connection to that
272
00:17:17,175 --> 00:17:19,305
deceased family member through water.
273
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:19,820
Mm-hmm.
274
00:17:19,825 --> 00:17:20,325
And
275
00:17:20,325 --> 00:17:24,465
that's something which I is different
to immerse number one, to now the
276
00:17:24,465 --> 00:17:26,535
interviews I'm doing for Immerse two.
277
00:17:27,105 --> 00:17:30,075
It could be that I'm asking
slightly different questions and I
278
00:17:30,075 --> 00:17:32,325
do ask about ritual and practice.
279
00:17:32,385 --> 00:17:33,435
Do you have a practice?
280
00:17:34,005 --> 00:17:39,225
And so that's been a really beautiful
reflection where people have shared
281
00:17:39,585 --> 00:17:43,155
Yeah, you know, my dad loved the
water and he taught me everything
282
00:17:43,155 --> 00:17:44,445
there is to know about the water.
283
00:17:44,445 --> 00:17:49,935
And so every morning I just take a
moment to say, Hey, there, another
284
00:17:50,055 --> 00:17:55,905
person in Immersed two has lost a family
member who was an open water swimmer.
285
00:17:56,325 --> 00:18:01,455
And so when she's swimming in the
water, she feels that, uh, one, he
286
00:18:01,455 --> 00:18:05,235
would be proud of her to see, you
know, how strong she's in the water.
287
00:18:05,235 --> 00:18:09,705
But two, she just feels that that's a
special connection to her loved one.
288
00:18:09,705 --> 00:18:10,125
So.
289
00:18:10,825 --> 00:18:13,705
Yeah, I think I've become
a lot more aware of that.
290
00:18:13,705 --> 00:18:19,254
Just that, I suppose the invisible
connection between all of life when we're
291
00:18:19,254 --> 00:18:26,455
in the water, you know, we're connected by
all of these oceans and we are one small
292
00:18:26,455 --> 00:18:28,825
part, but we're part of something bigger.
293
00:18:29,245 --> 00:18:34,195
And yeah, just having that moment
in the morning before the craziness
294
00:18:34,195 --> 00:18:38,275
begins, before we go off to our
other work or before we drop off
295
00:18:38,275 --> 00:18:41,785
the kids to school or before we
have to face that morning traffic.
296
00:18:42,595 --> 00:18:46,764
This is a chance to ground, to
get centered, disconnect, be
297
00:18:46,764 --> 00:18:48,805
it one with nature and just to.
298
00:18:49,725 --> 00:18:53,565
Get in that water and swim
or dip or just get wet.
299
00:18:53,805 --> 00:18:54,945
We're not all swimmers.
300
00:18:54,945 --> 00:18:59,235
It's not by any means, you know,
we don't have marathon swimmers.
301
00:18:59,325 --> 00:19:01,695
Some people just get wet and get cold.
302
00:19:01,755 --> 00:19:03,855
Others just go out to one of the poles.
303
00:19:04,335 --> 00:19:06,165
Others might swim a kilometer.
304
00:19:06,495 --> 00:19:07,995
It's not really about that.
305
00:19:08,025 --> 00:19:10,875
I think it's just about the
showing up and being there.
306
00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:13,260
And then the coffee afterwards.
307
00:19:14,250 --> 00:19:19,470
And I do have to ask you, you said bucket,
that was something that you take with you.
308
00:19:19,590 --> 00:19:21,780
What on earth do you do with the bucket?
309
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:28,950
Okay, so imagine a big plastic, uh, not
your traditional looking bucket, but
310
00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:31,260
the big container plastic container.
311
00:19:31,260 --> 00:19:32,970
Often you might put drinks in it.
312
00:19:33,210 --> 00:19:33,660
Oh yeah.
313
00:19:33,660 --> 00:19:35,010
Or you put your gardening.
314
00:19:35,220 --> 00:19:36,990
Yes, we all have those.
315
00:19:36,990 --> 00:19:37,020
Okay.
316
00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:42,330
And so in your bucket, we call it,
in your container bucket, is a hot
317
00:19:42,330 --> 00:19:46,050
water bottle because when you get out
of the water, you need hot water to.
318
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:47,439
You know, warm yourself up.
319
00:19:47,439 --> 00:19:49,120
That's our change room, that's our shower.
320
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:53,409
And in the bucket as well,
are your clothes, is your
321
00:19:53,469 --> 00:19:54,639
jacket where you put it in.
322
00:19:54,850 --> 00:19:58,600
You could have your goggles, a
couple of pairs of swimming caps.
323
00:19:58,899 --> 00:20:03,459
Now, you know, we've got the
gloves and the be, uh, the little
324
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,909
booties, the neoprene because
it's starting to get cold.
325
00:20:06,909 --> 00:20:10,750
Or you might have a neoprene
cap, so it's all your belongings.
326
00:20:10,959 --> 00:20:15,790
And we all walk down at seafood,
we've just got a bench and that's
327
00:20:15,790 --> 00:20:18,070
our area where we put our buckets.
328
00:20:18,575 --> 00:20:22,745
And because we've grown quite a bit
now, we've spread out to the other side.
329
00:20:22,745 --> 00:20:26,105
There's another bench and we also
have a bench down on the sand.
330
00:20:26,105 --> 00:20:28,865
And so it's just wherever
you can find a spot.
331
00:20:28,865 --> 00:20:33,305
Sometimes the dogs are sitting up
on the bench and so you've gotta,
332
00:20:33,365 --> 00:20:34,685
you know, make room for them.
333
00:20:34,685 --> 00:20:37,595
So you've gotta put your bucket on
the ground, but it's essentially
334
00:20:37,595 --> 00:20:39,335
what you carry everything in.
335
00:20:39,395 --> 00:20:42,905
And then some people will, when
they get out of the cold, they'll
336
00:20:42,905 --> 00:20:46,175
empty their bucket, put all their
stuff on the seat, stand in it.
337
00:20:46,550 --> 00:20:49,909
And then pour the hot water over
them while they're in the bucket so
338
00:20:49,909 --> 00:20:51,620
that it captures all that warm water.
339
00:20:51,679 --> 00:20:54,470
So it's just a way of keeping
warm that little bit longer.
340
00:20:54,830 --> 00:20:55,939
So that's great.
341
00:20:55,970 --> 00:21:00,260
You'd be amazed at how we've evolved from
those first years when I literally came
342
00:21:00,260 --> 00:21:05,570
down in my dressing gown and slippers
and socks and a beanie and you know,
343
00:21:05,570 --> 00:21:09,409
you just did it there in the broad open
and then, you know, then you might have
344
00:21:09,409 --> 00:21:13,220
caught gone, oh, they've got these really
great big jackets that you can use.
345
00:21:13,220 --> 00:21:15,830
Oh, let's get one of those and then
under that you can get changed.
346
00:21:16,699 --> 00:21:19,550
Oh, so now actually there's
shoes that have some lining.
347
00:21:19,550 --> 00:21:22,100
Well, that'll keep us a bit warmer
and, oh, actually there's these
348
00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:23,810
neoprene gloves and booties.
349
00:21:24,335 --> 00:21:25,415
Always evolving, love it.
350
00:21:25,415 --> 00:21:29,075
And we're always learning and going,
Hmm, what, what's, what's latest
351
00:21:29,075 --> 00:21:31,325
technology or gadget can we use now?
352
00:21:31,325 --> 00:21:35,075
And you know, we, we laugh
because yes, we have evolved.
353
00:21:35,555 --> 00:21:38,855
We've certainly evolved as
to, but we still look funny.
354
00:21:39,245 --> 00:21:43,595
I just, I, I have the image of, and I,
I think it's so clever that a, the hot
355
00:21:43,595 --> 00:21:47,285
water bottle, 'cause I love my hot water
bottles, but to actually then create
356
00:21:47,285 --> 00:21:51,845
a little shower with a bath, you know,
and I, I just think that's amazing.
357
00:21:52,010 --> 00:21:52,355
Yes, yes.
358
00:21:52,415 --> 00:21:53,795
Um, I, I love it.
359
00:21:53,795 --> 00:21:54,965
The, the innovation.
360
00:21:55,055 --> 00:21:55,745
Fantastic.
361
00:21:55,775 --> 00:21:55,865
Yes.
362
00:21:56,210 --> 00:21:56,430
Yes.
363
00:21:56,430 --> 00:22:01,190
Um, so let's maybe take a
step back prior to Immerse.
364
00:22:01,190 --> 00:22:06,305
So you've always been a, a photographic
journalist, you've traveled the world.
365
00:22:06,635 --> 00:22:11,225
Tell me a little bit about how you got
started in that profession as well,
366
00:22:11,225 --> 00:22:14,855
and, and what drew you to it and what,
what have you seen when you've traveled?
367
00:22:14,855 --> 00:22:17,015
What's some of the things
that stick out for you?
368
00:22:18,390 --> 00:22:23,820
I think my love for storytelling
and photography and listening
369
00:22:23,820 --> 00:22:28,920
to people started at a young
age thanks to my grandparents.
370
00:22:28,980 --> 00:22:32,850
My grandparents and my parents
are immigrants from Sicily,
371
00:22:33,450 --> 00:22:38,820
and so particularly my maternal
grandmother, who I'll call Nonna,
372
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,220
she was a great storyteller.
373
00:22:41,250 --> 00:22:44,520
You know, she would sing, she knew poetry.
374
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,990
She would tell stories of the war, world
War II that had taken place and the
375
00:22:48,990 --> 00:22:51,180
impact of her and the family in Sicily.
376
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:57,790
And so I, I think from a young age, I
just was fascinated with those stories.
377
00:22:57,855 --> 00:23:00,280
I, I think I always
enjoyed being creative.
378
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:07,120
I've always loved using my hands and
creating, making cards, drawing, writing.
379
00:23:07,179 --> 00:23:11,080
So I suppose I had a, a love
for those things early on.
380
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:16,389
But then with my nana and her
storytelling, and because we did travel
381
00:23:16,389 --> 00:23:22,090
a lot as a family, which we were very
fortunate to do, that really fueled
382
00:23:22,090 --> 00:23:28,959
my fire for adventure and curiosity
about different places and people.
383
00:23:29,439 --> 00:23:33,699
So eventually I went on
to study, uh, arts law.
384
00:23:33,699 --> 00:23:37,810
I majored in journalism, and
that was at Deacon in Geelong.
385
00:23:38,139 --> 00:23:42,429
And when I finished the journalism,
I got a cadetship at the Geelong
386
00:23:42,429 --> 00:23:44,260
Advertiser, the daily newspaper.
387
00:23:44,919 --> 00:23:46,540
And I did that there.
388
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,350
And it was really there
that I actually realized.
389
00:23:50,835 --> 00:23:54,345
Hardcore mainstream
journalism was not for me.
390
00:23:54,345 --> 00:23:59,385
So there's a thing in our industry
called the Death Knock where you have
391
00:23:59,385 --> 00:24:03,195
to go and knock on a family's door
after there's been a tragic death
392
00:24:03,225 --> 00:24:04,935
in the family and get the story.
393
00:24:05,955 --> 00:24:07,695
And I hated that.
394
00:24:07,695 --> 00:24:09,405
I really did not enjoy that.
395
00:24:09,465 --> 00:24:13,365
Of course, the family would not want to
speak to me after the loss of a loved one.
396
00:24:14,325 --> 00:24:18,795
You know, there's the court rounds
and I don't know, I just, I suppose it
397
00:24:18,795 --> 00:24:20,865
just didn't, it wasn't a fit for me.
398
00:24:21,255 --> 00:24:25,755
The other thing was I really, it was
there that my, I saw the photographers
399
00:24:25,755 --> 00:24:30,135
going out and I thought, I actually really
loved photography and I'd always loved
400
00:24:30,135 --> 00:24:32,175
photography during high school as well.
401
00:24:32,625 --> 00:24:34,155
So I had a choice.
402
00:24:34,275 --> 00:24:38,505
I needed to go back to Melbourne to finish
off the last two years of my law degree.
403
00:24:39,195 --> 00:24:43,635
Or I stay on as a journalist, stay on as
a cadet journalist and continue that path.
404
00:24:43,754 --> 00:24:47,054
And so I made a choice to go
back to Melbourne, finish off
405
00:24:47,054 --> 00:24:49,395
law, take up photography studies.
406
00:24:49,965 --> 00:24:56,385
And so from that time, so for
now 25 plus years, I have in one
407
00:24:56,385 --> 00:25:02,084
way or another been working as a
photographer or a writer, but with.
408
00:25:02,625 --> 00:25:08,115
People are like essentially faith-based
organizations, not-for-profits,
409
00:25:08,325 --> 00:25:11,055
social services type organizations.
410
00:25:11,475 --> 00:25:17,475
I suppose I went after the type of
storytelling that enriched people's
411
00:25:17,475 --> 00:25:25,034
lives, that inspired, that helped bridge
understanding, that helped give voice to
412
00:25:25,065 --> 00:25:27,165
people that otherwise didn't have voice.
413
00:25:27,495 --> 00:25:31,245
And so that's, that's where I
have lived in the last 25 years.
414
00:25:31,695 --> 00:25:34,815
So I work predominantly with
faith-based organizations.
415
00:25:34,815 --> 00:25:37,754
As I said, my own faith
background is Catholic, so I'm
416
00:25:37,754 --> 00:25:39,284
very comfortable in that space.
417
00:25:39,284 --> 00:25:45,555
I love hearing people's stories of faith
and spirit and God, I travel a lot.
418
00:25:45,735 --> 00:25:47,325
I do a lot of travel work.
419
00:25:47,715 --> 00:25:51,284
And so you asked what are some
of the places I've been to?
420
00:25:51,375 --> 00:25:53,055
Oh, many.
421
00:25:53,325 --> 00:25:53,895
Many.
422
00:25:54,254 --> 00:25:57,014
But I can tell you there are two.
423
00:25:57,419 --> 00:25:59,340
Places that really stand out.
424
00:26:00,179 --> 00:26:03,090
I had an opportunity to travel to Malawi.
425
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,290
It was in about 2010.
426
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:08,250
I want to say.
427
00:26:08,310 --> 00:26:14,520
Gosh, it feels so long ago because
I, I had an opportunity, Columbia
428
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:21,090
University in America sent me over
because they were working with men
429
00:26:21,090 --> 00:26:23,760
and women in Sub-Saharan Africa.
430
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:29,430
So Malawi being one of those places
to train them as non-physician
431
00:26:29,430 --> 00:26:32,850
clinicians in emergency obstetric care.
432
00:26:33,090 --> 00:26:37,950
So essentially that just means they are
specifically training men and women.
433
00:26:38,290 --> 00:26:44,649
To be surgeons in emergency cesareans
or anytime a woman was going into labor
434
00:26:44,649 --> 00:26:49,360
and there were any complications, these
men and women were specifically trained.
435
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,360
Now, it was a little bit controversial
at the time because they're not the
436
00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:57,639
traditionally trained doctors or
surgeons, but in these areas where
437
00:26:57,639 --> 00:27:01,330
there's a brain drain where many of
the qualified doctors and surgeons
438
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:03,310
are leaving for the UK or the us.
439
00:27:03,850 --> 00:27:09,370
The program that Columbia University
with a range of others had implemented
440
00:27:09,370 --> 00:27:10,900
were to do this specific training.
441
00:27:11,260 --> 00:27:16,450
So I had an opportunity to spend about a
month in Malawi documenting the work of
442
00:27:16,450 --> 00:27:21,880
these non-physician clinicians, spending
time in the hospitals, meeting these
443
00:27:21,940 --> 00:27:25,630
men and women, you know, so we'll call
them, well, non-physician clinicians,
444
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:27,670
healthcare practitioners, just.
445
00:27:27,850 --> 00:27:29,860
Their stories, gathering their stories.
446
00:27:30,310 --> 00:27:34,990
And what culminated from that
was an exhibition in Washington,
447
00:27:35,410 --> 00:27:36,790
uh, with the photographs.
448
00:27:36,790 --> 00:27:40,540
And Columbia University used the
photographs as part of their educational
449
00:27:40,540 --> 00:27:44,470
material and promotional material
talking about this type of work.
450
00:27:44,980 --> 00:27:51,430
But the then Princess of Denmark,
Mary, princess Mary, she was at
451
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:53,350
that exhibition and she opened it.
452
00:27:53,380 --> 00:27:56,320
And so I have photographs and
I have a beautiful photograph
453
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,570
with Mary from that opening.
454
00:27:58,630 --> 00:27:59,830
So that was a highlight.
455
00:28:00,250 --> 00:28:04,720
And I gave her Vegemite and Tim
Tams and a few of my That's great.
456
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:05,230
I love it.
457
00:28:05,650 --> 00:28:10,960
And then the second one was Rwanda,
my most recent trip to Rwanda.
458
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,940
So, and before you go there, I might
just ask a few questions about Malawi.
459
00:28:16,030 --> 00:28:16,420
Sure.
460
00:28:16,420 --> 00:28:17,950
So I'm assuming that.
461
00:28:18,465 --> 00:28:23,504
There was quite a few complications
with the lack of physicians in that
462
00:28:23,504 --> 00:28:27,615
area and, and that was the reason
why they were actually hoping to,
463
00:28:27,675 --> 00:28:29,534
to have some sort of pilot program.
464
00:28:29,745 --> 00:28:31,935
Was that the reasoning
behind what they were doing?
465
00:28:32,324 --> 00:28:37,274
Yeah, so the thinking was to train
these men and women with specific
466
00:28:37,544 --> 00:28:43,514
skills around emergency obstetric care
so that if and when anything might
467
00:28:43,514 --> 00:28:48,314
happen during childbirth, they would
have the skills to save mother's lives.
468
00:28:48,314 --> 00:28:52,695
And it was all part of the United
Nations sustainable development goals.
469
00:28:52,905 --> 00:28:59,085
They wanted to reduce maternal mortality
and birth mortality in places like Malawi.
470
00:28:59,324 --> 00:29:02,595
And from what I can remember,
it was having an impact.
471
00:29:02,595 --> 00:29:04,245
It was successful.
472
00:29:04,485 --> 00:29:07,695
These men and women were making
a positive impact because they
473
00:29:07,695 --> 00:29:09,435
came from those local areas.
474
00:29:09,794 --> 00:29:13,395
They were rural and remote,
and they had the skills in
475
00:29:13,395 --> 00:29:15,645
those situations to save lives.
476
00:29:15,980 --> 00:29:18,680
So yes, they were making an impact.
477
00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:22,700
And it's not just though the
healthcare professionals in places
478
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:26,720
like Malawi, you know, it's also
the infrastructure around the roads.
479
00:29:26,750 --> 00:29:28,790
Many people live very remotely.
480
00:29:28,790 --> 00:29:32,450
So trying to get out to women
who are in those remote areas.
481
00:29:32,570 --> 00:29:35,120
We are talking roads
with massive potholes.
482
00:29:35,540 --> 00:29:39,740
Then there's the ambulances, you
know, not having enough ambulances.
483
00:29:39,740 --> 00:29:42,410
Then there's the infrastructure
around the hospitals.
484
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,160
You know, electricity went out
often having access to water.
485
00:29:46,550 --> 00:29:50,240
So the training of these
non-physician clinicians was
486
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,600
one part of really a myriad of.
487
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,940
Issues around reducing maternal
mortality and for mothers and
488
00:29:58,940 --> 00:30:01,910
children during emergency incidents.
489
00:30:02,150 --> 00:30:06,920
But yes, I mean, this is years ago
now and it's probably still going.
490
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,420
It was definitely having an impact, a
positive impact, and that's why these
491
00:30:11,420 --> 00:30:15,985
universities, I mean, we are talking
professor from the Karolinska Institute
492
00:30:16,010 --> 00:30:20,030
in Sweden heading up the project,
working with Columbia University,
493
00:30:20,030 --> 00:30:21,620
working with other universities.
494
00:30:21,860 --> 00:30:27,350
So these professors and surgeons and
physicians are the people training
495
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,400
these men and women to be these
specialized healthcare practitioners
496
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,630
so that in these specific circumstances
they can help reduce maternal
497
00:30:35,630 --> 00:30:37,970
mortality and childbirth mortality.
498
00:30:37,970 --> 00:30:42,860
So yeah, it was a really important project
and I mean, look, for me even to be
499
00:30:42,860 --> 00:30:47,660
sharing this, I think, but for my job as
a journalist and a photographer, and I.
500
00:30:48,660 --> 00:30:50,430
You know, I wouldn't have known that.
501
00:30:50,610 --> 00:30:55,770
And it's amazing how it opens
your world to what's going on in
502
00:30:55,770 --> 00:30:59,490
other places and what's important,
you know, lifesaving stuff.
503
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:04,020
But it's so important that your
role is there to be the one who
504
00:31:04,020 --> 00:31:05,670
documents and tell the story.
505
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,770
Because so many times, and certainly
from my experience with working with
506
00:31:11,190 --> 00:31:15,360
the Botanic Gardens and as you know, a
scientific institution, that that was,
507
00:31:15,690 --> 00:31:19,980
uh, both, you know, environmentally and
in other ways, um, the people are really
508
00:31:19,980 --> 00:31:23,880
amazing at what they do, but they're
just not really great storytellers.
509
00:31:23,910 --> 00:31:29,790
They don't, they don't have the skills
or the funding or the ability to actually
510
00:31:30,060 --> 00:31:33,240
document what they're doing and then
convey it in a way in which other
511
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:38,430
people can understand and, and see the
impact that they're making because not.
512
00:31:38,695 --> 00:31:41,004
All storytelling is effective.
513
00:31:41,004 --> 00:31:44,274
When you're looking at grant funding
and those sorts of things, by just
514
00:31:44,274 --> 00:31:47,304
a report, you have to actually
tell the human stories behind it.
515
00:31:47,605 --> 00:31:51,054
So that was very progressive
thinking on their behalf to actually
516
00:31:51,054 --> 00:31:54,895
engage you, to be the The person
that tells those stories for them.
517
00:31:55,195 --> 00:31:55,794
Yes.
518
00:31:55,885 --> 00:31:57,835
And to capture beautiful photographs.
519
00:31:57,835 --> 00:32:00,415
You know, we know the impact of beauty.
520
00:32:00,415 --> 00:32:03,445
Beauty can help us, take us places.
521
00:32:03,445 --> 00:32:08,905
And so if you can capture these stories
with dignity and with beauty and with
522
00:32:08,905 --> 00:32:15,355
sensitivity, you know, I was in hospitals
photographing women and sometimes girls,
523
00:32:15,355 --> 00:32:20,425
young girls holding their newborn babies,
and so there's a sensitivity around that.
524
00:32:20,845 --> 00:32:23,365
Seeking permission, you know.
525
00:32:23,715 --> 00:32:25,485
Obviously it wasn't always successful.
526
00:32:25,485 --> 00:32:29,655
I was in a operating theater when
it didn't go well and you know,
527
00:32:29,655 --> 00:32:32,565
you've gotta make choices about,
okay, what do I do with this?
528
00:32:32,625 --> 00:32:35,504
And yeah, but it is a specific role.
529
00:32:35,504 --> 00:32:40,425
I think people, you know, are good in
their jobs or what they're doing, but
530
00:32:40,455 --> 00:32:44,745
that might not mean that they, they're
able to capture it and to share it and to
531
00:32:44,774 --> 00:32:50,504
package it up or to know how best to, to
share those stories or those photographs.
532
00:32:50,504 --> 00:32:54,524
And particularly in today's world,
there are so many avenues for us
533
00:32:54,524 --> 00:32:59,205
to share stories and photographs,
but it's how do we do it well?
534
00:32:59,564 --> 00:33:01,365
You know, how do we do it respectfully?
535
00:33:01,365 --> 00:33:02,294
How do we do it?
536
00:33:02,774 --> 00:33:03,044
Yeah.
537
00:33:03,044 --> 00:33:05,774
In a way that I suppose meets its purpose.
538
00:33:05,774 --> 00:33:10,274
And for me, my purpose is it's
about building connection,
539
00:33:10,274 --> 00:33:14,385
building understanding, listening
to people, sharing stories.
540
00:33:14,385 --> 00:33:15,675
It's the humanity.
541
00:33:15,764 --> 00:33:18,885
There is more that connects
us than divides us.
542
00:33:19,125 --> 00:33:22,574
And in today's world, where we see
what's going on with all of the
543
00:33:22,574 --> 00:33:25,004
conflict, the division, the uncertainty.
544
00:33:25,905 --> 00:33:31,125
I think if we can capture, even if
it's in our own backyards, those
545
00:33:31,125 --> 00:33:36,044
beautiful stories of community
and connection of meaning, then.
546
00:33:36,479 --> 00:33:37,500
Well, that's my job.
547
00:33:37,530 --> 00:33:38,459
That's my call.
548
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:42,149
That's what I feel like I was here to
do and that's what I love doing, you
549
00:33:42,149 --> 00:33:45,600
know, in seafood or Rwanda or Malawi.
550
00:33:45,689 --> 00:33:46,169
Doesn't matter.
551
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:53,850
And tell me, um, how has, you know,
your ethics developed over time and, and
552
00:33:53,850 --> 00:33:56,850
how has it been informed by your faith?
553
00:33:56,969 --> 00:34:01,469
Like, how, 'cause, 'cause like you said,
there, there's so much sensitivity around
554
00:34:01,745 --> 00:34:06,449
and, and we will talk a bit in a moment
about Rwanda and, and what you experienced
555
00:34:06,449 --> 00:34:10,529
there, but, but there's so much
sensitivity around storytelling because
556
00:34:10,529 --> 00:34:13,049
you are telling someone else's story.
557
00:34:13,049 --> 00:34:15,060
You're documenting and
telling that for them.
558
00:34:15,065 --> 00:34:15,404
Mm-hmm.
559
00:34:15,484 --> 00:34:19,830
So I'd love to, to get your thoughts
on firstly the, the sensitivity
560
00:34:19,830 --> 00:34:21,359
and the, the ethics around that.
561
00:34:21,359 --> 00:34:26,219
And then, and whether you think that,
how much your faith has come in to, to
562
00:34:26,219 --> 00:34:28,350
shape your, your thoughts around that.
563
00:34:29,804 --> 00:34:34,245
Yeah, so I think, well, as I said
before, I think I made the choice
564
00:34:34,245 --> 00:34:40,094
to work with organizations or people
or, you know, basically follow
565
00:34:40,154 --> 00:34:44,594
those types of stories that match
my heart or match my sensitivity.
566
00:34:44,594 --> 00:34:49,544
So it tends to be that they're the
people that I attract or that I'm
567
00:34:49,544 --> 00:34:53,294
working with, which means that, you know,
similarly they're attracted to me in
568
00:34:53,294 --> 00:34:54,854
that way of that type of storytelling.
569
00:34:55,604 --> 00:35:00,165
But so when it comes to the actual
storytelling, yeah, I mean, obviously
570
00:35:00,165 --> 00:35:05,084
there's a sensitivity around being
sure that the person knows what
571
00:35:05,084 --> 00:35:08,325
the interview's about, what's the
purpose like, where's it going to
572
00:35:08,325 --> 00:35:10,604
be, why are we doing this interview?
573
00:35:10,964 --> 00:35:15,314
Sometimes they approach me or I might
approach them, or the editor gets called
574
00:35:15,314 --> 00:35:17,205
and you know, I'm assigned a story.
575
00:35:17,625 --> 00:35:20,895
Or like immerse, you know, it's
come from my own desire to do
576
00:35:20,895 --> 00:35:23,294
something, but I think it's about.
577
00:35:23,715 --> 00:35:27,945
Just speaking with the person
saying, look, this is what I'm doing.
578
00:35:27,945 --> 00:35:29,085
This is why I'm doing it.
579
00:35:29,745 --> 00:35:30,975
There's the listening.
580
00:35:31,035 --> 00:35:35,925
You know, it's genuinely wanting to
listen to the story and look, you
581
00:35:35,925 --> 00:35:40,154
know, not everyone agrees with this,
but I am very happy with showing
582
00:35:40,154 --> 00:35:42,435
my story before it gets published.
583
00:35:42,705 --> 00:35:48,075
If it's an intimate story where I've spent
an hour or an hour and a half listening
584
00:35:48,075 --> 00:35:53,715
to someone's story and they have beared
some really personal and beautiful and
585
00:35:53,715 --> 00:35:57,765
moving things, which is no doubt what
I want to include, because that's the
586
00:35:57,765 --> 00:36:00,495
essence of what they're trying to convey.
587
00:36:00,495 --> 00:36:03,375
Whether it's something that's happened
in their life that they've overcome
588
00:36:03,375 --> 00:36:08,595
or you know, it could be anything,
I'm okay with checking it with them.
589
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:10,890
Because I could have got something wrong.
590
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:16,140
I mean, you know, I, I record, but
I'm still taking what I've heard.
591
00:36:16,890 --> 00:36:20,700
I'm jiggling, you know, rephrasing
and trying to paraphrase them,
592
00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:22,170
putting in some direct quotes.
593
00:36:22,230 --> 00:36:27,870
And often it's hard to condense an hour
and a half of really beautiful time
594
00:36:27,870 --> 00:36:30,569
with someone to a 1200 word article.
595
00:36:31,509 --> 00:36:36,129
You know, so that in itself is a skill,
you know, sometimes it could be longer if
596
00:36:36,129 --> 00:36:40,480
you've got a longer publication, but let's
say on average it's about 1200 words.
597
00:36:40,870 --> 00:36:45,790
So to capture the essence of someone's
story, one just one part, it's not
598
00:36:45,790 --> 00:36:49,899
their whole story, obviously it's
1200 words is, well, it's a privilege.
599
00:36:49,930 --> 00:36:53,140
I, I think every interview
is sacred ground.
600
00:36:53,410 --> 00:36:57,399
I think there is merit in the
interview process itself, just the
601
00:36:57,399 --> 00:37:01,569
sitting with listening, bearing
witness to someone's story.
602
00:37:02,049 --> 00:37:06,160
I mean, you might have a list of questions
and then you go completely left a field
603
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:07,629
which you know, you would know about.
604
00:37:08,230 --> 00:37:11,710
And that's, that's when I would say,
well, that's the spirit, you know, coming
605
00:37:11,710 --> 00:37:18,009
into it because you know it's alive,
it's uh, you know, it's, might go in
606
00:37:18,009 --> 00:37:19,930
a different tangent and that's okay.
607
00:37:20,290 --> 00:37:24,220
So yeah, certainly my own faith
background, I suppose it's.
608
00:37:24,645 --> 00:37:29,685
Just having a sensitivity around
people's experience, people's
609
00:37:29,685 --> 00:37:34,305
experience of God, things which we
can't quite explain that are a mystery.
610
00:37:34,395 --> 00:37:35,000
That's okay.
611
00:37:35,220 --> 00:37:36,225
I'm okay with that.
612
00:37:36,765 --> 00:37:38,445
I find that really fascinating.
613
00:37:38,475 --> 00:37:41,145
And yeah, I think it's just being gentle.
614
00:37:41,145 --> 00:37:44,475
I'm not out to, you know, it's
not like I'm the hardcore journo.
615
00:37:44,565 --> 00:37:48,915
I need to get your story and
make a buck out of exposing you.
616
00:37:48,945 --> 00:37:49,725
That is not me.
617
00:37:49,725 --> 00:37:51,615
And that's the choice
I made many years ago.
618
00:37:52,455 --> 00:37:58,635
My stories and my interviewing, and the
reason I'm doing this, I. Is to bear
619
00:37:58,635 --> 00:38:00,885
witness to the story you wanna share.
620
00:38:01,305 --> 00:38:02,955
And there is merit in that.
621
00:38:03,045 --> 00:38:08,595
We all have stories in us, and if I get
to publish it and others get to read it
622
00:38:08,655 --> 00:38:13,965
with the blessing of the person whose
story I've just laid bare, it is the best.
623
00:38:14,175 --> 00:38:14,805
I love it.
624
00:38:14,805 --> 00:38:19,485
I absolutely love it when a
story is done well, I'm wrapped.
625
00:38:19,515 --> 00:38:20,805
Every story though is hard.
626
00:38:20,805 --> 00:38:24,975
You know, when you sit, when I sit
down to start it, every time I'm like,
627
00:38:25,095 --> 00:38:27,825
you know, I say a little prayer, I,
I light a candle, I've got my own
628
00:38:27,825 --> 00:38:32,085
little process, and I'm like, help
me share what needs to be shared.
629
00:38:32,565 --> 00:38:33,765
Like the essence.
630
00:38:33,765 --> 00:38:39,285
And, you know, again, I've got one and
a half hours worth into 1200 words.
631
00:38:39,944 --> 00:38:41,475
And then good enough is good enough.
632
00:38:42,134 --> 00:38:42,765
My goodness.
633
00:38:42,765 --> 00:38:46,545
I don't envy you because look, I, I
certainly am, and we've spoken about
634
00:38:46,545 --> 00:38:50,775
this previously, about the fact that the
process that I, I do is very limited,
635
00:38:50,835 --> 00:38:56,265
um, editing with my podcast editor,
Livy, and all of the, the collateral
636
00:38:56,265 --> 00:39:01,665
is shown and approved before it's, it's
publicly, you know, shown and, and.
637
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,090
That came as a surprise to me
that I was the, the odd one out,
638
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,220
that the norm is not to show.
639
00:39:07,820 --> 00:39:11,090
So I feel when I sit down to someone
and you, you touched on something
640
00:39:11,090 --> 00:39:15,290
really well then about it sort of being
a very special moment when you are
641
00:39:15,290 --> 00:39:17,180
listening to someone tell their story.
642
00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:22,850
And I find that it's in that, that
process, you're also capturing
643
00:39:22,850 --> 00:39:27,380
someone's legacy because when you
document someone's story, that story
644
00:39:27,380 --> 00:39:30,530
is then, you know, forever recorded.
645
00:39:30,770 --> 00:39:31,430
Uh, yes.
646
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:36,050
And that's why I also go through that due
process of making sure that someone is,
647
00:39:36,050 --> 00:39:37,940
is comfortable with what's being recorded.
648
00:39:37,940 --> 00:39:42,230
Because I don't think people really
understand that nowadays, that
649
00:39:42,230 --> 00:39:45,770
really, once you record something,
it really is out there one forever.
650
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,240
Um, so how, how does that.
651
00:39:50,529 --> 00:39:55,660
Impact on your process with that legacy
that, that you leave and the storytelling,
652
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:57,820
because like you said, it is super hard.
653
00:39:57,820 --> 00:40:02,110
Like I, I don't have to condense
my interviews to 1200 words.
654
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:03,310
Yeah.
655
00:40:03,430 --> 00:40:09,580
When I'm writing someone's story, I think
it really comes down to when I'm listening
656
00:40:09,580 --> 00:40:14,740
to them, you sort of hear the bits in
the interview where your heart moves.
657
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:19,690
You sort of go, oh, that was beautiful,
or, oh, you know, oh, you just, you
658
00:40:19,690 --> 00:40:21,970
start becoming sensitive in your own.
659
00:40:22,345 --> 00:40:26,605
Listening and feeling of,
oh, that's gold, gold.
660
00:40:26,605 --> 00:40:28,225
And it might be a particular story.
661
00:40:28,735 --> 00:40:31,885
And that story captures
the essence of that person.
662
00:40:32,155 --> 00:40:38,035
So, you know, I have interviewed
a 100-year-old war veteran.
663
00:40:38,185 --> 00:40:42,985
He was an anthesis, I can never
say that word, so please excuse me.
664
00:40:43,315 --> 00:40:44,395
Um, no, I thought you did pretty well.
665
00:40:44,485 --> 00:40:44,965
Yeah, good.
666
00:40:45,685 --> 00:40:51,055
And you know, he was telling me
about the portrait of his wife on
667
00:40:51,055 --> 00:40:56,455
the wall, and he was showing me
the photos and in the things that
668
00:40:56,455 --> 00:40:58,555
he was saying in explaining that.
669
00:40:59,490 --> 00:41:05,520
He has a great love of his wife of, I
think it was over 60 years she had died.
670
00:41:05,580 --> 00:41:11,549
And so the other thing is when I'm
listening in the interview and I'm asking
671
00:41:11,549 --> 00:41:16,259
the questions, you know, there's the facts
about maybe for instance, for this man,
672
00:41:16,259 --> 00:41:20,040
it's his decorated history, all of the
things that he did, the different wars
673
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,820
that he was part of, because you know,
it's a story that he's celebrated his
674
00:41:23,910 --> 00:41:28,650
100th birthday and he is still in great
shape and he's able to tell these stories.
675
00:41:28,650 --> 00:41:34,620
But I suppose as long as we are
human and we have hearts, it's the
676
00:41:34,620 --> 00:41:36,660
stuff of the heart that gets us.
677
00:41:37,020 --> 00:41:41,160
And so when I hear those types of
things, I'm like, oh, you know, and.
678
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,899
You know, he loved his wife and it
helped shape the photographs as well.
679
00:41:46,109 --> 00:41:50,910
So I, I can send you the link, but, you
know, one of the photographs that I took
680
00:41:50,910 --> 00:41:56,399
is of him holding up his wedding photo
with his wife, so that helps shape.
681
00:41:56,430 --> 00:41:56,790
Yeah.
682
00:41:56,790 --> 00:42:01,589
You know, so when I'm interviewing,
I'm also getting a picture of, oh,
683
00:42:01,589 --> 00:42:05,399
okay, I'll have to make sure I get a
photo of that, or what else can I see?
684
00:42:05,759 --> 00:42:12,240
So I think, I think it's just that over
the years I have accepted that I, I'm
685
00:42:12,240 --> 00:42:17,850
not writing a person's life story in this
article, but I'm capturing an essence of
686
00:42:17,850 --> 00:42:24,060
this person who they are, that he's been a
decorated anesthetist over all this time.
687
00:42:24,180 --> 00:42:28,709
He's had all of these experiences,
but at the heart of it, he's a man of
688
00:42:28,709 --> 00:42:34,140
deep faith and a man of deep love for
his wife of many years who has now
689
00:42:34,140 --> 00:42:35,970
died, but he's still got her portrait.
690
00:42:36,900 --> 00:42:37,440
Up there.
691
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,470
Beautiful painted portrait by an
international artist that he tells
692
00:42:40,470 --> 00:42:42,150
me about when I enter the room.
693
00:42:42,810 --> 00:42:44,160
And I think that's the other thing.
694
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:49,800
I'm often doing my interviews in
people's homes, you know, and that
695
00:42:50,430 --> 00:42:55,110
that's the sacredness I'm being
welcomed into someone's home.
696
00:42:55,905 --> 00:42:58,245
So it deserves preparation.
697
00:42:58,305 --> 00:43:03,045
It deserves research, it deserves me,
you know, giving that person a call.
698
00:43:03,045 --> 00:43:03,585
Just checking.
699
00:43:03,585 --> 00:43:04,365
You're okay.
700
00:43:04,455 --> 00:43:06,045
Do you wanna see the questions first?
701
00:43:06,045 --> 00:43:07,695
By all means, these are just a guide.
702
00:43:07,695 --> 00:43:08,175
Sure.
703
00:43:08,745 --> 00:43:10,545
Don't worry, I'll write it up.
704
00:43:10,545 --> 00:43:12,855
But if you wanna, if you
feel more comfortable seeing
705
00:43:12,855 --> 00:43:14,445
it, that's absolutely fine.
706
00:43:14,445 --> 00:43:19,575
It really does not worry me because
I want them to feel that they have
707
00:43:19,575 --> 00:43:24,045
had agency as well, that they have
had a role in sharing that legacy.
708
00:43:24,405 --> 00:43:29,235
And I think when I think of the word
legacy, so I mean, let's go to immerse,
709
00:43:29,655 --> 00:43:36,765
the amount of people who have just been
absolutely chuffed because their words and
710
00:43:36,765 --> 00:43:40,515
photos have been immortalized in a book.
711
00:43:41,385 --> 00:43:45,735
Like that was a really beautiful thing
to witness because often I'm writing
712
00:43:45,735 --> 00:43:47,445
the stories and I'm onto the next thing.
713
00:43:47,445 --> 00:43:51,885
I don't see the interviewee's
reactions when they're reading
714
00:43:51,885 --> 00:43:54,135
the stories down the track.
715
00:43:54,675 --> 00:44:01,035
But here with Immerse, it's been so
lovely to be amongst my friends who
716
00:44:01,335 --> 00:44:06,315
are in the book and who share the
impact of the book and the impact
717
00:44:06,315 --> 00:44:07,995
of seeing each other's stories.
718
00:44:08,325 --> 00:44:11,265
Oh, I feel like I know
so and so much better.
719
00:44:11,265 --> 00:44:14,775
Oh, you know, it was so beautiful
to have a deeper understanding
720
00:44:14,775 --> 00:44:17,925
of this person because now I feel
like I've got a deeper connection.
721
00:44:18,315 --> 00:44:22,395
Fiona, thank you for capturing
part of my story in this book.
722
00:44:22,965 --> 00:44:28,065
And so it is with articles, it's that
opportunity to capture something of
723
00:44:28,065 --> 00:44:31,065
that person, which can then be shared.
724
00:44:31,635 --> 00:44:35,505
With family, friends, others that
you might never know you could
725
00:44:35,505 --> 00:44:37,305
touch hearts that you never know.
726
00:44:37,815 --> 00:44:38,235
Yeah.
727
00:44:38,235 --> 00:44:42,255
So I think that's really what's
at the heart of it, is the heart.
728
00:44:42,285 --> 00:44:42,615
You know?
729
00:44:42,615 --> 00:44:47,115
Where are those moments that I'm
listening going, oh, that was beautiful.
730
00:44:47,445 --> 00:44:48,945
This speaks to the person.
731
00:44:49,095 --> 00:44:53,955
Yes, there are the facts, but
where did I feel my heart move?
732
00:44:53,955 --> 00:44:57,975
Where did I feel my spirit rise or fall?
733
00:44:57,975 --> 00:45:00,585
Or where is the beauty, the mystery?
734
00:45:00,585 --> 00:45:02,625
The, yeah.
735
00:45:02,625 --> 00:45:04,785
And I think that's the Paris storytelling.
736
00:45:05,145 --> 00:45:05,505
Yeah.
737
00:45:05,505 --> 00:45:09,075
It, it's funny that you say that
because I, there are moments when you're
738
00:45:09,075 --> 00:45:12,165
speaking to someone and you, and you
just know that there's that little
739
00:45:12,165 --> 00:45:13,755
gold nugget that they've just dropped.
740
00:45:14,505 --> 00:45:17,025
And you were, you were hoping that
it was going to come, but you're
741
00:45:17,025 --> 00:45:21,435
never not quite sure about how it's
going to, you know, emerge and Yeah.
742
00:45:21,435 --> 00:45:23,055
I, I do relate to that.
743
00:45:23,115 --> 00:45:23,685
Yeah.
744
00:45:23,805 --> 00:45:26,265
I think, can I just
add, just quickly Sure.
745
00:45:26,265 --> 00:45:29,925
People often say to me, oh, I don't
have anything interesting to say.
746
00:45:29,985 --> 00:45:32,655
I don't have anything to contribute.
747
00:45:32,955 --> 00:45:34,310
Ah, there's no stories in me.
748
00:45:35,535 --> 00:45:37,455
Not true, so not true.
749
00:45:37,484 --> 00:45:43,335
Everyone has a story that is unique
to them, and in those everyday
750
00:45:43,395 --> 00:45:49,694
ordinary moments is where we find
life and love and sadness, grief.
751
00:45:50,410 --> 00:45:52,930
Life and death and everything in between.
752
00:45:53,470 --> 00:45:54,310
This is it.
753
00:45:55,030 --> 00:45:58,000
Everyone's got a story
to tell and so that's
754
00:45:58,000 --> 00:45:59,290
why I'll never be out of a job.
755
00:46:00,550 --> 00:46:04,060
I think that's so true and, and
through the conversation that we've
756
00:46:04,060 --> 00:46:08,560
been having, one word that keeps
coming up quite a bit is Essence,
757
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:12,790
and I'm wondering whether that's
the, uh, the next book title for you.
758
00:46:12,790 --> 00:46:12,820
Oh,
759
00:46:13,240 --> 00:46:13,900
essence.
760
00:46:13,900 --> 00:46:16,330
I think somebody might
have suggested that.
761
00:46:17,030 --> 00:46:17,360
Ooh.
762
00:46:17,420 --> 00:46:20,960
Maybe I'll, I'll take it on note essence.
763
00:46:21,500 --> 00:46:21,800
Yeah.
764
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:23,030
It's a beautiful word.
765
00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:25,970
I love it is, it's the
essences, the life, the,
766
00:46:26,420 --> 00:46:27,080
yeah.
767
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:28,100
Yeah, yeah.
768
00:46:28,700 --> 00:46:34,880
Now tell us, we've covered Malawi,
but let's go to Rwanda where you
769
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:39,440
have only, well, you know, as it,
I would say recently returned, but,
770
00:46:40,010 --> 00:46:43,670
uh, it's been quite a few months
now, and you've had time to, to
771
00:46:43,670 --> 00:46:45,500
process your experience over there.
772
00:46:45,500 --> 00:46:47,180
I'm, I'm sure, to some degree.
773
00:46:47,660 --> 00:46:50,960
Tell us a little bit about how that
came about, what you did while you
774
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:55,220
were over there and, and perhaps
what the impact has been for you,
775
00:46:55,580 --> 00:46:57,590
uh, you know, since you've returned.
776
00:46:57,940 --> 00:46:58,390
Hmm.
777
00:46:58,930 --> 00:47:03,160
So I have a very dear friend,
Gabrielle Marni, who I can say, 'cause
778
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:04,960
I've written an article about her.
779
00:47:05,380 --> 00:47:10,930
She has been diagnosed with a
terminal illness cancer, and this
780
00:47:10,930 --> 00:47:13,870
has been now a couple of years ago.
781
00:47:14,410 --> 00:47:17,590
And so not last year, the year before.
782
00:47:17,590 --> 00:47:19,090
So last year was 2024.
783
00:47:19,090 --> 00:47:26,050
So 2023, Gabby received her
diagnosis and in November she was
784
00:47:26,050 --> 00:47:28,630
celebrating a milestone birthday.
785
00:47:29,380 --> 00:47:34,870
And so she decided to have a big
celebration of life, you know, to
786
00:47:34,870 --> 00:47:39,400
really celebrate her life for her
milestone birthday with her twin sister.
787
00:47:40,090 --> 00:47:45,040
And now there was a special guest
at this celebratory gathering, a
788
00:47:45,310 --> 00:47:52,540
gorgeous woman called Chantel, who
is from Rwanda now 30 years prior.
789
00:47:52,890 --> 00:47:58,590
Gabrielle was working for World
Vision and last year marked the 30
790
00:47:58,590 --> 00:48:03,150
year anniversary of the horrific
genocide that took place in Rwanda.
791
00:48:03,930 --> 00:48:11,160
So at that time, it started around the
sixth, 7th of April, lasted for a hundred
792
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:15,690
days, even though it lasted for a lot
longer in terms of the deaths that were
793
00:48:15,690 --> 00:48:17,700
taking place and the ramifications.
794
00:48:18,450 --> 00:48:22,800
But Gabrielle was posted to
Rwanda as part of World Vision's,
795
00:48:22,830 --> 00:48:26,580
humanitarian aid assistance, and so.
796
00:48:27,570 --> 00:48:34,410
Gabby was there now 31 years ago, and
over from memory five, about five years,
797
00:48:34,710 --> 00:48:40,110
was posted to Rwanda as part of the team
to help rebuild following the genocide.
798
00:48:40,500 --> 00:48:46,410
And at that time she met Chantel who
had herself survived the genocide.
799
00:48:46,625 --> 00:48:48,240
Her story alone.
800
00:48:48,330 --> 00:48:49,890
But Chantel's story is.
801
00:48:51,125 --> 00:48:54,995
A miracle and it's amazing and it
just speaks to so much resilience.
802
00:48:55,115 --> 00:49:01,265
So they had stayed friends all of this
time, and when Gabby was having her
803
00:49:01,265 --> 00:49:06,335
celebration, she invited Chantel and
brought Chantel over for the celebration.
804
00:49:06,335 --> 00:49:09,634
So we all had the great
pleasure of meeting Chantel.
805
00:49:09,634 --> 00:49:13,234
So this was in November, 2023.
806
00:49:13,625 --> 00:49:18,754
And you know, we were, she had stayed
for a couple of months, I think,
807
00:49:18,754 --> 00:49:20,314
Chantel, while she was in Australia.
808
00:49:20,794 --> 00:49:24,544
And we had gatherings at Gabby's
house and it just came up.
809
00:49:24,634 --> 00:49:28,535
Obviously, you know, a journalist, a
photographer, I've never been to Rwanda.
810
00:49:28,955 --> 00:49:33,095
Gabrielle had mentioned that she would
really love to go back to Rwanda, you
811
00:49:33,095 --> 00:49:37,865
know, it's been on her bucket list to
return, just to see the progress and
812
00:49:37,865 --> 00:49:40,685
also to see what Chantel has done.
813
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:46,200
To recreate and build something
so special for her community.
814
00:49:46,950 --> 00:49:50,729
So that got the, uh, mind
ticking and Chantel extended
815
00:49:50,729 --> 00:49:52,410
an invitation to Gabrielle.
816
00:49:52,410 --> 00:49:55,680
Gabrielle, come, I will
host you at my place.
817
00:49:55,979 --> 00:50:00,810
And then that invitation was extended
to a few of Gabrielle's friends and so.
818
00:50:01,785 --> 00:50:03,345
That is exactly what happened.
819
00:50:03,495 --> 00:50:09,975
So last year in July, Gabrielle, two
of her longtime university friends
820
00:50:09,975 --> 00:50:13,154
and myself, we traveled to Rwanda.
821
00:50:13,185 --> 00:50:18,315
We were hosted by Chantel at the place
that she has established, which is called
822
00:50:18,345 --> 00:50:21,674
Isho Bear, which is randan for resilience.
823
00:50:22,065 --> 00:50:27,015
And it's essentially a beautiful
wellness center in the sense
824
00:50:27,015 --> 00:50:28,335
that it has accommodation.
825
00:50:28,335 --> 00:50:32,205
So we were housed in accommodation,
beautiful accommodation in
826
00:50:32,205 --> 00:50:35,055
beautiful grounds, organic farming.
827
00:50:35,055 --> 00:50:40,845
There are cows, there is yoga,
there is a cultural center library,
828
00:50:41,415 --> 00:50:43,634
and it is Chantel's vision.
829
00:50:43,634 --> 00:50:47,805
And she has in fact, created
it to create this place.
830
00:50:48,240 --> 00:50:52,890
Where culture can be kept alive,
where vulnerable people in
831
00:50:52,890 --> 00:50:54,720
the community can be employed.
832
00:50:55,170 --> 00:51:00,570
She supports 10 to 15 families in
her village with the children's
833
00:51:00,570 --> 00:51:03,840
education, medical bills and so forth.
834
00:51:04,110 --> 00:51:08,580
So money raised through Ashore
Bear and through Chantel's
835
00:51:08,580 --> 00:51:10,290
work goes out to the community.
836
00:51:10,290 --> 00:51:13,860
She hires the mothers from
those families to work the farm.
837
00:51:14,370 --> 00:51:19,170
She hires vulnerable young people
to staff isbe, so the Cook, and
838
00:51:19,170 --> 00:51:23,550
Manuel and Francois, the young
lady who welcomes the guests.
839
00:51:23,850 --> 00:51:25,650
Then there other cow keepers.
840
00:51:26,250 --> 00:51:31,680
And so it's sustainable ecotourism,
a developmental type system where
841
00:51:31,980 --> 00:51:36,780
everything that comes in goes back out
to the community and it's sustaining.
842
00:51:36,780 --> 00:51:39,780
And she's, I mean, Chantel is remarkable.
843
00:51:40,140 --> 00:51:42,270
What she has achieved is remarkable.
844
00:51:42,720 --> 00:51:46,050
So having the opportunity
to be there to photograph.
845
00:51:46,500 --> 00:51:47,939
To be there with Gabby.
846
00:51:48,450 --> 00:51:52,410
If there's one thing that I
could say in Gabby's diagnosis.
847
00:51:52,919 --> 00:51:57,569
She has been taking her family
and friends on this journey.
848
00:51:57,569 --> 00:52:01,035
I. With such poise and
dignity and strength.
849
00:52:01,245 --> 00:52:06,645
You know, she's established platforms that
help us keep track of how she's going.
850
00:52:07,065 --> 00:52:11,745
She has created a ritual we all gathered
at her house when it was time for
851
00:52:11,745 --> 00:52:16,575
her to shave off her hair, and there
was prayer, there was song, there was
852
00:52:16,575 --> 00:52:22,395
dance, there was time for reflection
around the fire before the shaving.
853
00:52:22,875 --> 00:52:25,305
Then there was the
celebration of life, which.
854
00:52:25,645 --> 00:52:29,335
Gave people an opportunity not
waiting for Gabrielle to die.
855
00:52:29,424 --> 00:52:32,305
Let's share all the beautiful
stuff about Gabrielle.
856
00:52:32,305 --> 00:52:36,475
Now, Gabrielle, if you're watching this,
I hope you're okay with me saying all of
857
00:52:36,475 --> 00:52:41,665
this fantastic stuff, but it was such a
beautiful celebration, you know, friends,
858
00:52:41,665 --> 00:52:46,165
family, sharing all the things we love
about Gabrielle, all of her achievements,
859
00:52:46,165 --> 00:52:51,565
Gabrielle sharing her reflections, her
dreams, talking to family and friends.
860
00:52:51,805 --> 00:52:58,255
It started at two, uh, I think, uh,
people got to bed very late that night.
861
00:52:59,125 --> 00:53:04,345
So, you know, and what a lovely
thing it must be to partake in, in
862
00:53:04,345 --> 00:53:09,355
something where you can still hear and
be involved in all the storytelling.
863
00:53:09,654 --> 00:53:10,075
Yes.
864
00:53:10,105 --> 00:53:15,235
Whereas, you know, the amount of times
that we hear people talk about attending
865
00:53:15,235 --> 00:53:18,805
a funeral of a, a friend or a loved
one and go, oh, I never knew that.
866
00:53:19,089 --> 00:53:23,799
They did that or I, I
didn't know that about them.
867
00:53:23,799 --> 00:53:27,879
Or the opposite thing that we
find is that the funeral doesn't
868
00:53:27,879 --> 00:53:29,319
actually reflect who they are.
869
00:53:29,410 --> 00:53:29,589
Mm. Yeah.
870
00:53:30,580 --> 00:53:34,089
Or anything of who they are
in their essence, you know?
871
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:34,509
Yes.
872
00:53:34,779 --> 00:53:40,899
I just think it's amazing that if you
do have the option, uh, and you're
873
00:53:40,899 --> 00:53:46,870
comfortable to do so, that it must help
with the healing process or at least the
874
00:53:46,870 --> 00:53:49,419
grieving process of the loved ones around.
875
00:53:50,379 --> 00:53:52,660
Mm. To, to have that, those memories.
876
00:53:53,230 --> 00:53:53,649
Yes.
877
00:53:53,649 --> 00:53:59,709
Well, I must admit, this is the first
time that I have experienced walking
878
00:53:59,709 --> 00:54:04,870
alongside and being with a friend with
a terminal illness, and Gabby is a
879
00:54:04,870 --> 00:54:10,029
deeply spiritual woman, and she has
experienced in being a death doula
880
00:54:10,060 --> 00:54:12,279
and she has worked in palliative care.
881
00:54:12,759 --> 00:54:18,459
And I think all of those things tied in
together, she knows the importance of.
882
00:54:18,899 --> 00:54:25,980
Demystifying the process and bringing
people along with her as a friend.
883
00:54:26,009 --> 00:54:30,779
You know, I've shared it with other
friends, just what a privilege it's
884
00:54:30,779 --> 00:54:38,790
been and just to, yeah, how Gabby has
gathered us up and she's helping us
885
00:54:38,790 --> 00:54:45,629
in this process and, you know, it's
not all fairy floss and great times.
886
00:54:45,629 --> 00:54:50,165
It's certainly, you know, the highs and
the lows, and she's very real about.
887
00:54:50,924 --> 00:54:52,634
What's, you know, happening.
888
00:54:53,294 --> 00:54:59,355
But equally, she's also traveling to
Rwanda, traveling to Turkey and doing
889
00:54:59,355 --> 00:55:05,955
things and you know, so bringing us along
on that journey, talking about death.
890
00:55:06,044 --> 00:55:12,794
And I wrote an article about Gabby,
which has been published, and again, just
891
00:55:13,185 --> 00:55:18,765
capturing this essence of Gabby in light
of these circumstances and the recent
892
00:55:18,765 --> 00:55:26,355
trip to Rwanda, it was a privilege to
be there with her witness, her returning
893
00:55:26,355 --> 00:55:30,884
to Rwanda, I've never sung so much.
894
00:55:31,214 --> 00:55:35,384
We danced the Rwandan community,
and I think that was one of your
895
00:55:35,384 --> 00:55:36,944
questions, what have I learned?
896
00:55:37,605 --> 00:55:41,115
So I would never have thought
I'd be going to Rwanda.
897
00:55:41,205 --> 00:55:43,185
That's not one of the
places that I had thought.
898
00:55:43,185 --> 00:55:48,855
But again, the opportunity
arose and I can admit I arrived.
899
00:55:49,380 --> 00:55:53,010
Worried and scared and probably closed.
900
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:58,890
And you know that I'd done a lot of
research about the genocide in the lead
901
00:55:58,890 --> 00:56:03,120
up to, I'd spoken to people from World
Vision who had worked in the area.
902
00:56:03,780 --> 00:56:08,940
I was just trying to be as prepared
as I could, and in some ways that
903
00:56:08,970 --> 00:56:11,400
probably had me going like this.
904
00:56:12,180 --> 00:56:16,530
Well, if there's one thing I
can say, it is that Rwanda and
905
00:56:16,530 --> 00:56:22,260
its beautiful, resilient, warm,
open-hearted people broke me open.
906
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:25,170
Yeah.
907
00:56:27,495 --> 00:56:29,265
For the joy and the grief.
908
00:56:29,805 --> 00:56:35,955
I, I could not get over the singing
and the dancing, the amount.
909
00:56:36,045 --> 00:56:41,985
Uh, and I, I recall you telling me
the story about that as it was getting
910
00:56:41,985 --> 00:56:44,625
closer to you leaving and coming home.
911
00:56:45,075 --> 00:56:49,455
The children of the local village would
come earlier and earlier each day to
912
00:56:49,455 --> 00:56:53,235
spend more time with you because they
knew that their time with you was
913
00:56:53,235 --> 00:56:55,755
coming to a, to an end at that point.
914
00:56:55,995 --> 00:56:56,265
Yes.
915
00:56:56,265 --> 00:56:59,535
And, but they would come in and they
would, they would sing and dance with
916
00:56:59,535 --> 00:57:01,005
you every afternoon, wouldn't they?
917
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:01,890
Yes.
918
00:57:01,890 --> 00:57:06,990
So these are the children of the
families that Chantel is taking care of
919
00:57:06,990 --> 00:57:09,360
as part of the Ashore Bear community.
920
00:57:09,720 --> 00:57:14,760
And yes, every, well, it started
once a week in the afternoons
921
00:57:14,970 --> 00:57:16,740
that they come for singing.
922
00:57:16,830 --> 00:57:21,825
Uh, Chantel is an artist herself
and she's very strong in teaching
923
00:57:21,830 --> 00:57:26,010
children song Rwandan song and
dance and poetry, you know, the
924
00:57:26,010 --> 00:57:27,810
culture, keeping the culture alive.
925
00:57:28,140 --> 00:57:33,450
And so I think on our first
day there, the children came.
926
00:57:33,450 --> 00:57:37,290
So the children of the local
village families, so they're,
927
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:38,910
we call them the Shoba children.
928
00:57:38,910 --> 00:57:40,350
They're not just random children.
929
00:57:40,650 --> 00:57:45,900
They came and yeah, you know,
singing songs and dancing.
930
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:49,200
But what eventuated was just.
931
00:57:49,610 --> 00:57:58,160
Just beautiful play and friendship
and more play and singing and hugs
932
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:02,780
and play more singing and miming.
933
00:58:02,780 --> 00:58:08,900
And I think it just, what that taught
me, and as I said, it did break me
934
00:58:08,900 --> 00:58:16,190
open because from this wound up afraid,
worried what's gonna happen in Rwanda?
935
00:58:17,030 --> 00:58:18,500
I was just.
936
00:58:19,230 --> 00:58:22,170
Welcomed with open arms
in the marketplace.
937
00:58:22,170 --> 00:58:27,810
I had my, I had randan phrases, a
sheet that I took with me everywhere
938
00:58:28,380 --> 00:58:32,070
and I would always pull it out
and start speaking in Kenya.
939
00:58:32,070 --> 00:58:34,770
Rwandan badly, but it didn't matter.
940
00:58:35,100 --> 00:58:38,880
The people would laugh, they would be
open my shoulder, it broke the ice.
941
00:58:39,330 --> 00:58:41,130
And then by the end there's hugs.
942
00:58:41,130 --> 00:58:42,990
We are laughing, we are taking photos.
943
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:48,900
And so yes, by the end, uh,
really the highlight was the
944
00:58:48,900 --> 00:58:50,700
time spent with the children.
945
00:58:50,790 --> 00:58:54,240
Yeah, because look, everyone is
still impacted by the genocide.
946
00:58:54,300 --> 00:58:56,940
It did take place 30 years ago.
947
00:58:57,660 --> 00:59:02,820
The country has moved on in many ways
in terms of healing and reconciliation.
948
00:59:03,180 --> 00:59:05,009
Now there's no who to tootsies.
949
00:59:05,009 --> 00:59:06,360
Everyone is randan.
950
00:59:06,690 --> 00:59:11,130
There is a big emphasis on safety
and on peace and never again.
951
00:59:11,700 --> 00:59:16,500
But, you know, we have hearts
and it's only 30 years ago, and.
952
00:59:17,100 --> 00:59:22,560
So many people were killed,
massacred on, you know, mostly
953
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:24,420
tootsies, but also Hutu's.
954
00:59:25,050 --> 00:59:28,470
Tell me, what did you, is
there public memorials?
955
00:59:28,470 --> 00:59:30,870
Like how have they Yes.
956
00:59:30,900 --> 00:59:32,550
How have they acknowledged that?
957
00:59:33,330 --> 00:59:34,800
Very recent?
958
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:35,700
Yes.
959
00:59:35,790 --> 00:59:39,840
Genocide in the capital city of
Kigali, there is the Genocide
960
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:46,230
Memorial, which is a very big center
dedicated to the genocide victims.
961
00:59:46,530 --> 00:59:51,330
So it has the whole history of
really how it, it didn't just
962
00:59:51,330 --> 00:59:54,990
happen on the 6th of April, 1994.
963
00:59:55,590 --> 01:00:02,520
There is a whole history which has
led to systematic infrastructure or
964
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:07,470
systems that have taken place, which
led to this, which eventually happened
965
01:00:07,470 --> 01:00:09,150
on the sixth, and then the genocide.
966
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:15,870
So there's the big memorial in
Kigali, but then in the specific.
967
01:00:16,260 --> 01:00:17,550
Genocide sites.
968
01:00:17,550 --> 01:00:23,010
So unfortunately a lot of churches,
people went there for safety and
969
01:00:23,010 --> 01:00:25,560
they were barred in and torched.
970
01:00:26,070 --> 01:00:28,500
And so there are memorials.
971
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:32,370
In fact, I believe there is a
memorial in every district of Rwanda.
972
01:00:32,940 --> 01:00:39,660
And the month of April, the whole month of
April in Rwanda is a time of remembrance.
973
01:00:40,230 --> 01:00:46,200
So it's a time when there are events
where people come to remember, people
974
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:51,150
come to give testimony because you
know, if you think about it, for many
975
01:00:51,210 --> 01:00:55,410
probably they haven't even been able
to talk about it until most recent
976
01:00:55,410 --> 01:00:58,500
times, like the trauma, you know?
977
01:00:58,500 --> 01:01:02,670
So there are still a lot of
healing and reconciliation work
978
01:01:02,850 --> 01:01:05,520
taking place that has taken place.
979
01:01:06,030 --> 01:01:09,690
I heard the most phenomenal
stories of forgiveness.
980
01:01:10,545 --> 01:01:16,065
There, which that's been one of the
biggest impacts for me when I think of
981
01:01:16,125 --> 01:01:22,815
the level of forgiveness that people
have had to come to and they have,
982
01:01:23,805 --> 01:01:25,875
I have nothing to complain about.
983
01:01:26,205 --> 01:01:32,955
So I, I've talking about examples
of like women whose sons or husbands
984
01:01:33,015 --> 01:01:39,884
children were killed by the neighbor
and they now visit that man in prison
985
01:01:39,915 --> 01:01:46,185
and have adopted him as their son out of
forgiveness and because they don't want
986
01:01:46,185 --> 01:01:48,585
the violence and that cycle to continue.
987
01:01:48,645 --> 01:01:52,964
I mean, I heard that story
often that women now go to the
988
01:01:52,964 --> 01:01:55,665
prisons where the men who killed.
989
01:01:56,145 --> 01:01:57,045
Obliterated.
990
01:01:57,705 --> 01:02:02,235
Sometimes entire families,
they now visit or have adopted
991
01:02:02,235 --> 01:02:05,025
them as their sons or family.
992
01:02:05,025 --> 01:02:08,085
So that, that stays with me.
993
01:02:08,385 --> 01:02:08,685
Yeah.
994
01:02:08,685 --> 01:02:13,275
So the level of resilience,
the reconciliation,
995
01:02:13,845 --> 01:02:15,615
there's the month of April.
996
01:02:16,245 --> 01:02:16,545
Yeah.
997
01:02:16,545 --> 01:02:23,025
In Rwanda is all about
remembering, sharing stories.
998
01:02:23,475 --> 01:02:24,555
So it still goes on.
999
01:02:24,660 --> 01:02:25,455
I I, yeah.
1000
01:02:25,635 --> 01:02:27,765
Still it's on 31 years today.
1001
01:02:27,975 --> 01:02:28,215
That's
1002
01:02:28,215 --> 01:02:28,635
not long.
1003
01:02:29,115 --> 01:02:30,795
No, it's, it's really not.
1004
01:02:30,855 --> 01:02:34,035
Uh, it, it's what, one generation really.
1005
01:02:34,305 --> 01:02:34,755
Yes.
1006
01:02:34,785 --> 01:02:35,055
Yes.
1007
01:02:35,115 --> 01:02:41,355
So there's many that lost their
parents or all aunts and uncles or.
1008
01:02:41,805 --> 01:02:43,005
Yeah, all their children.
1009
01:02:43,005 --> 01:02:44,205
So yes, there are many.
1010
01:02:44,205 --> 01:02:47,685
There are women who gather,
they're all the widows.
1011
01:02:47,745 --> 01:02:52,095
We were in one place where we just
happened to be at the hotel where
1012
01:02:52,395 --> 01:02:56,895
the annual gathering of the widows
joined at a diocese, a Catholic
1013
01:02:56,895 --> 01:02:59,835
diocese in one of the Rwandan areas.
1014
01:03:00,225 --> 01:03:04,935
And so they gather every year
to just be together, to talk
1015
01:03:04,935 --> 01:03:07,755
and to give solidarity and love.
1016
01:03:08,415 --> 01:03:12,345
But yeah, so, and I know that there
are programs still taking place
1017
01:03:12,345 --> 01:03:14,295
around reconciliation and healing.
1018
01:03:14,655 --> 01:03:18,015
That was a very big piece of
work that that World Vision did.
1019
01:03:18,285 --> 01:03:22,515
And there were programs set up and
so I met some of those key people.
1020
01:03:23,205 --> 01:03:27,345
I suppose the difficulties when you're
there for, I think I was there for three
1021
01:03:27,345 --> 01:03:31,905
or four weeks and constantly, you know,
taking photos and gathering stories.
1022
01:03:32,415 --> 01:03:38,805
I came back with a big body of,
I. Information and I've gotta
1023
01:03:38,805 --> 01:03:40,815
admit it takes time to process it.
1024
01:03:40,815 --> 01:03:45,075
I sort of came back and, you know, yeah.
1025
01:03:45,075 --> 01:03:45,795
It takes time.
1026
01:03:46,305 --> 01:03:46,605
Yeah.
1027
01:03:47,565 --> 01:03:53,145
And I can, I can see that, just even
thinking about it, you know, it is a,
1028
01:03:53,145 --> 01:03:59,445
a big weight to bear witness to even,
because it is recent memory, like I was
1029
01:03:59,445 --> 01:04:03,915
at high school when it happened in my
final year or second final year, and.
1030
01:04:04,555 --> 01:04:09,685
One of my, my family went over there as
a peacekeeper, as part of the un Towanda.
1031
01:04:10,075 --> 01:04:15,025
Uh, I knew someone who used to
volunteer at the gardens that was part
1032
01:04:15,025 --> 01:04:17,335
of that, that reconciliation process.
1033
01:04:17,335 --> 01:04:22,525
So there are people, you know, within
our own circles that have been touched
1034
01:04:22,525 --> 01:04:24,835
by this and had some experience with it.
1035
01:04:25,195 --> 01:04:25,555
Yes.
1036
01:04:25,555 --> 01:04:27,445
So I'm not surprised.
1037
01:04:27,445 --> 01:04:34,465
And on the scale that we have seen that
happen in, in Rwanda was just horrific.
1038
01:04:35,245 --> 01:04:40,105
But what is it that you think has been
unique and stands out for you in that
1039
01:04:40,165 --> 01:04:44,905
reconciliation or how they've been
able to move forward and, you know,
1040
01:04:44,935 --> 01:04:52,345
how do you see that with what Chantel's
doing in her, her way of ensuring
1041
01:04:52,345 --> 01:04:55,585
the culture lives on so we don't.
1042
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:58,820
It doesn't repeat and it is a
different way moving forward.
1043
01:04:59,150 --> 01:05:02,510
Mm. I'm not sure really how to answer
that 'cause I feel a little bit
1044
01:05:02,510 --> 01:05:06,710
like an outsider and I, I, I suppose
I can speak from my experience of
1045
01:05:06,710 --> 01:05:09,650
what I've seen with Chantel and we
are still in contact with Chantel.
1046
01:05:09,650 --> 01:05:12,050
She happens to be in Australia
at the moment visiting.
1047
01:05:12,740 --> 01:05:17,630
I think the, the government certainly
there is a big emphasis on peace.
1048
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:22,670
There is a big emphasis on unity, as
I mentioned now, they used to have
1049
01:05:22,670 --> 01:05:27,800
identity cards that said you were Hutu
or Tootsie or the other ethnic group.
1050
01:05:28,860 --> 01:05:29,670
That's all gone.
1051
01:05:29,670 --> 01:05:32,730
You, you're not even allowed to
say you are one or the other.
1052
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:34,350
It's, we are all Rwandans.
1053
01:05:35,070 --> 01:05:38,100
Now that aside, you know,
obviously there's still humans
1054
01:05:38,100 --> 01:05:40,200
and people still know who's who
1055
01:05:40,380 --> 01:05:44,250
to explain, people who don't understand
that there, there was tribal sort
1056
01:05:44,250 --> 01:05:47,520
of like a tri, I suppose the best
way to describe it would be tribal.
1057
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:49,561
Well, if there, they're
different ethnic groups.
1058
01:05:49,566 --> 01:05:51,150
Ethnic, yeah, different ethnic groups.
1059
01:05:51,150 --> 01:05:55,470
So they're the different peoples
who have come to live in Rwanda, the
1060
01:05:55,470 --> 01:06:01,230
Hutu people of Tootsies, and then
a smaller minority, um, the people.
1061
01:06:01,230 --> 01:06:05,550
And as I said, you know, there's
actually quite a long history and it
1062
01:06:05,550 --> 01:06:09,330
includes colonization, it includes power.
1063
01:06:09,390 --> 01:06:14,250
Who's in government, who's not,
who's owning the land, who's not so.
1064
01:06:14,790 --> 01:06:18,810
It's, it's not just what happened in
those 100 days from the 6th of April.
1065
01:06:18,810 --> 01:06:21,690
It's really important to
understand there's a whole history.
1066
01:06:21,690 --> 01:06:25,290
There was already war taking
place and you know, the United
1067
01:06:25,290 --> 01:06:27,509
Nations had already been in Rwanda.
1068
01:06:27,900 --> 01:06:28,230
Yeah.
1069
01:06:28,230 --> 01:06:29,910
There's, there's so much history.
1070
01:06:29,910 --> 01:06:37,350
So when I think as a visitor to
Rwanda 30 years on, it is remarkable.
1071
01:06:37,350 --> 01:06:41,940
And Gabby would say the same 'cause she
was there at the progress, you know,
1072
01:06:41,970 --> 01:06:44,460
all the roads, the infrastructure.
1073
01:06:44,490 --> 01:06:47,310
'cause if you think 30
years ago it was decimated.
1074
01:06:48,330 --> 01:06:49,020
Decimated.
1075
01:06:49,470 --> 01:06:54,330
So in terms of the infrastructure,
the roads, the buildings, the
1076
01:06:54,330 --> 01:06:57,150
city, that's one part of it.
1077
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:02,220
But then in terms of the people,
yeah, I suppose so sharing what I
1078
01:07:02,220 --> 01:07:07,800
witnessed in Chantel and what Chantel
has witnessed, yeah, there is, uh,
1079
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:11,315
that determination, never again.
1080
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:17,609
Never again, you know, that we want
to maintain our culture through
1081
01:07:17,609 --> 01:07:22,140
dance, through song poetry, you
know, the craft that comes from
1082
01:07:22,140 --> 01:07:27,150
Rwanda and really celebrate that,
which is good in our country.
1083
01:07:28,170 --> 01:07:31,140
But you know, it, it
comes with this history.
1084
01:07:31,140 --> 01:07:34,470
But I do think they
are forging away ahead.
1085
01:07:35,009 --> 01:07:38,310
But you know, it's very easy for
me to make blanket statements.
1086
01:07:38,310 --> 01:07:40,560
I was there for three or four weeks.
1087
01:07:40,830 --> 01:07:43,680
It's really what I'm learning
and continue to learn.
1088
01:07:43,770 --> 01:07:47,460
Healing and reconciliation programs
are still taking place because
1089
01:07:47,460 --> 01:07:51,089
there were many people who did not
take those opportunities in the
1090
01:07:51,089 --> 01:07:57,060
past 30 years, there is trauma in
the body and in the spirit that is
1091
01:07:57,060 --> 01:07:59,400
still needing to be worked through.
1092
01:08:00,180 --> 01:08:03,630
You know, it's ongoing,
but would I go again?
1093
01:08:03,660 --> 01:08:04,290
Yes.
1094
01:08:04,290 --> 01:08:06,090
Do I think Rwanda is a safe play?
1095
01:08:06,090 --> 01:08:06,660
Yes.
1096
01:08:06,660 --> 01:08:11,280
Do I think the people are warm
and friendly and open and loving?
1097
01:08:11,580 --> 01:08:12,270
Yes.
1098
01:08:12,570 --> 01:08:14,040
Do I think they want peace?
1099
01:08:14,100 --> 01:08:14,760
Yes.
1100
01:08:14,790 --> 01:08:18,840
You know that they want the best for
their country and their children.
1101
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:20,520
There is still a lot of poverty.
1102
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:25,920
There's still systemic issues that
the government need to work on, but
1103
01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:30,120
the fact that they really are focusing
on that safety and security and peace
1104
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:36,000
and unity, that, you know, Rwanda,
I, I think either Rwanda people
1105
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:37,859
would say that is who we want to be.
1106
01:08:37,859 --> 01:08:39,990
That is the people and, yeah.
1107
01:08:40,410 --> 01:08:43,650
I mean, you know, as I said,
I can't speak on their behalf.
1108
01:08:43,650 --> 01:08:44,580
I was a visitor.
1109
01:08:44,610 --> 01:08:48,510
It's just my observations
and my own reflections.
1110
01:08:48,840 --> 01:08:52,710
But yeah, I, I now feel like,
see, Chantel is here visiting
1111
01:08:52,710 --> 01:08:55,560
again, and we've had fundraisers.
1112
01:08:55,560 --> 01:09:00,510
Gabrielle has hosted fundraisers and
friends of mine have now met Chantel.
1113
01:09:00,510 --> 01:09:04,529
They've come and stayed here in sea
and they've met the swimming community.
1114
01:09:04,529 --> 01:09:09,990
So it was lovely for people here
again, locally in Melbourne, who heard
1115
01:09:09,990 --> 01:09:12,120
the story of Chantel and Gabrielle.
1116
01:09:12,150 --> 01:09:16,800
Maybe through the article or through
the fundraising events, Chantel is
1117
01:09:16,860 --> 01:09:18,690
able to come and then they meet her.
1118
01:09:18,690 --> 01:09:22,290
And now just most recently, one
of our friends had a small event
1119
01:09:22,590 --> 01:09:26,490
and she chose for the proceeds
of that event to go toward Rebe.
1120
01:09:26,910 --> 01:09:27,420
So.
1121
01:09:27,900 --> 01:09:34,470
Small but meaningful impact beyond
now Rwanda through these connections.
1122
01:09:35,220 --> 01:09:36,630
I mean, it's amazing.
1123
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:42,630
So Rwanda is ingrained in my
heart, the children for sure.
1124
01:09:42,630 --> 01:09:49,050
The experience that deep
invitation to, to forgive.
1125
01:09:49,350 --> 01:09:54,120
You know, when things in my own life,
when I have seen what others have needed
1126
01:09:54,120 --> 01:09:57,510
to forgive and that deep resilience Yeah.
1127
01:09:57,510 --> 01:09:59,640
That they all, that all stays with me.
1128
01:09:59,940 --> 01:10:00,240
Yeah.
1129
01:10:00,300 --> 01:10:06,555
I hope it's made me a better person or
have a better appreciation for life.
1130
01:10:07,215 --> 01:10:07,635
Mm-hmm.
1131
01:10:08,495 --> 01:10:11,730
It, it was interesting 'cause that
was going to be my next question
1132
01:10:11,730 --> 01:10:16,080
was, was what, you know, you, you've
been the storyteller and you've
1133
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:19,200
witnessed so many different stories.
1134
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:23,370
You know, what are the top things that
you take away with you each day from the
1135
01:10:23,370 --> 01:10:25,530
storytelling that you've, you've heard?
1136
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:31,140
I think the main things that I
take away or that I've come to
1137
01:10:31,140 --> 01:10:34,170
know deep within my heart and soul.
1138
01:10:34,620 --> 01:10:39,450
Yeah, just that there is more that
connects us, you know, our humanity.
1139
01:10:39,690 --> 01:10:41,010
Kindness matters.
1140
01:10:41,550 --> 01:10:42,900
Listening matters.
1141
01:10:43,770 --> 01:10:47,880
Spending time in people's
presence matters.
1142
01:10:48,390 --> 01:10:50,220
Having conversations matter.
1143
01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:53,280
I think I said listening,
but I'll say it again.
1144
01:10:53,310 --> 01:10:53,940
Listening.
1145
01:10:54,390 --> 01:10:55,560
Eye contact.
1146
01:10:56,550 --> 01:10:57,630
Are you okay?
1147
01:10:57,750 --> 01:10:58,560
How are you?
1148
01:10:59,550 --> 01:11:01,650
I'm interested in what you've got to say.
1149
01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:09,510
As long as we have hearts and spirit
and we're with people, you know, we are
1150
01:11:09,510 --> 01:11:13,650
social beings, but I just think at the
heart of it, you know, is love, love.
1151
01:11:13,890 --> 01:11:18,030
We have love to give and we all need
to be loved, but it's that connection.
1152
01:11:18,570 --> 01:11:21,030
So yeah, I think I've really learned that.
1153
01:11:21,795 --> 01:11:27,705
If we take time to listen and hear
someone's story, we will gain a deeper
1154
01:11:27,705 --> 01:11:33,495
understanding and probably be kinder
and more compassionate, less judgmental.
1155
01:11:34,155 --> 01:11:35,715
And it is sacred.
1156
01:11:35,745 --> 01:11:36,585
It's all sacred.
1157
01:11:36,885 --> 01:11:38,535
That whole encounter.
1158
01:11:39,225 --> 01:11:42,765
I love Pope Francis used
to use the word so often.
1159
01:11:42,765 --> 01:11:47,865
It's that encounter, you know, the,
that encounter with the other, whether
1160
01:11:47,865 --> 01:11:52,875
it's with God, you know, the universe
that which we can't see, those that
1161
01:11:52,875 --> 01:11:56,505
have passed with, whether it's with
our loved ones, even with ourselves.
1162
01:11:56,505 --> 01:12:00,765
That encounter of just, I
am here, I matter, and you
1163
01:12:00,765 --> 01:12:03,285
matter, and your story matters.
1164
01:12:03,345 --> 01:12:04,485
And listening.
1165
01:12:04,665 --> 01:12:05,445
I'll just say it again.
1166
01:12:06,315 --> 01:12:06,645
Yeah.
1167
01:12:07,515 --> 01:12:07,995
Wow.
1168
01:12:07,995 --> 01:12:12,315
Fiona, I couldn't think of a better way
to actually finish our little chat today.
1169
01:12:12,375 --> 01:12:13,605
That is really beautiful.
1170
01:12:13,935 --> 01:12:19,155
Thank you so much for sharing
everything, uh, that you, you have today.
1171
01:12:19,215 --> 01:12:20,445
I really enjoyed our chat.
1172
01:12:21,075 --> 01:12:21,735
Thank you.
1173
01:12:21,735 --> 01:12:22,335
It's been
1174
01:12:22,635 --> 01:12:26,265
a joy to be with you even,
and I apologize for the tears.
1175
01:12:27,045 --> 01:12:27,495
Oh God.
1176
01:12:27,495 --> 01:12:28,035
No, don't.
1177
01:12:28,035 --> 01:12:30,075
Don't ever apologize for tears.
1178
01:12:30,315 --> 01:12:31,515
You are in good company.
1179
01:12:32,535 --> 01:12:33,525
Yeah, no, thank you.
1180
01:12:33,525 --> 01:12:35,865
It's been really a lovely privilege.
1181
01:12:35,865 --> 01:12:36,225
Thanks.
1182
01:12:39,285 --> 01:12:42,705
We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,
1183
01:12:43,005 --> 01:12:44,745
brought to you by Critical Info.
1184
01:12:45,495 --> 01:12:49,785
If you liked the episode, learn something
new, or were touched by a story you
1185
01:12:49,785 --> 01:12:51,735
heard, we'd love for you to let us know.
1186
01:12:51,855 --> 01:12:55,455
Send us an email, even tell
your friends, subscribe so you
1187
01:12:55,455 --> 01:12:57,195
don't miss out on new episodes.
1188
01:12:57,375 --> 01:13:01,515
If you can spare a few moments,
please rate and review us as it
1189
01:13:01,515 --> 01:13:03,255
helps other people to find the show.
1190
01:13:03,555 --> 01:13:04,905
Are you dying to know more?
1191
01:13:05,055 --> 01:13:06,045
Stay up to date with.
1192
01:13:06,045 --> 01:13:09,975
Don't be caught dead by signing up to
our newsletter and follow us on social
1193
01:13:09,975 --> 01:13:16,155
media Head to Don't Be Caught dead.com for
more information and loads of resources.
Read Less
Resources
- Read the Book: Immerse
- Visit the Website: Fiona Basile
- Read Fiona's articles she mentions in the episode:
-
Make Death Admin Easy with The Critical Info Platform
A simple system to sort your personal paperwork for when your information becomes critical.
-
My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?
Our guide, ‘My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?’ provides practical steps for the hours and days after a loved one's death. Purchase it here.
-
Support Services
If you're feeling overwhelmed by grief, find support through our resources and bereavement services here.
Share
