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Zenith: I was so incredibly impressed by
his generosity and his kindness, because

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00:00:06,819 --> 00:00:11,279
it's very unusual for a funeral director
to tell you how to do it themselves.

3
00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,229
And because I never got to thank him,
because when I went back to say thank you,

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00:00:16,230 --> 00:00:17,990
the funeral directors had disappeared.

5
00:00:18,630 --> 00:00:22,270
But I am bound by h ... Read More

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00:00:01,930 --> 00:00:06,800
Zenith: I was so incredibly impressed by
his generosity and his kindness, because

2
00:00:06,819 --> 00:00:11,279
it's very unusual for a funeral director
to tell you how to do it themselves.

3
00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,229
And because I never got to thank him,
because when I went back to say thank you,

4
00:00:16,230 --> 00:00:17,990
the funeral directors had disappeared.

5
00:00:18,630 --> 00:00:22,270
But I am bound by his
example to me of generosity.

6
00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,769
So if someone asks me if something,
if I can possibly give it, I will,

7
00:00:28,250 --> 00:00:32,930
because you never know what that
piece of information is going to seed.

8
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Because everything that has come in the
last 30 years was made easier because

9
00:00:37,959 --> 00:00:42,540
of his generosity by sharing that
information with me so freely that day.

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Catherine: Welcome to
Don't Be Caught Dead.

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00:00:46,764 --> 00:00:51,694
A podcast encouraging open conversations
about dying and the death of a loved one.

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00:00:52,285 --> 00:00:57,205
I'm your host, Katherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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00:00:57,205 --> 00:00:59,714
bring your stories of death back to life.

14
00:01:00,275 --> 00:01:04,489
Because while you may not be ready
to die, At least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations

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00:01:11,119 --> 00:01:14,890
and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.

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We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging and extend

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00:01:19,710 --> 00:01:23,190
that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First

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00:01:23,190 --> 00:01:24,950
Nation peoples around the globe.

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In this episode, I speak with a pioneer
in the death care industry, Zenith Farago.

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Zenith is the founder and executive
officer of the Natural Death

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00:01:38,165 --> 00:01:40,125
Care Centre Charity Australia.

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She is a death walker, a
celebrant and an educator.

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Zenith has been empowering people to
have healthier, healing bereavement with

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few or no regrets for over 30 years.

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Our conversation was enlightening and
funny, ranging from the significance

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of graveyards in England, ceremonies
for the LGBTQ community, how to

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00:02:03,769 --> 00:02:08,389
support children through grief, and
we even managed to talk about vaginas.

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I'm sure you'll enjoy hearing
from Zenith as much as I did.

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00:02:13,580 --> 00:02:15,120
Thank you for joining us today.

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You're welcome.

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00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:16,850
Thank you.

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00:02:17,410 --> 00:02:20,070
Now Zenith, you describe
yourself as a death walker.

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What is a death walker?

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00:02:22,380 --> 00:02:28,580
Zenith: For me, I'm walking towards my own
death the best and courageously as I can,

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and so when I'm working with people, I'm
accompanying them in their death journey,

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00:02:35,549 --> 00:02:39,859
or their bereavement journey, if they're
the people that are going to live on.

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00:02:40,559 --> 00:02:46,605
And so, I, when I first started my
work, the word doula was a word,

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00:02:47,065 --> 00:02:49,255
but it wasn't in common usage.

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And then through the years, people said
to me, Oh, you're like a death doula.

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But someone told me a long time ago
that the word doula meant female slave.

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And so I have never used
that word to describe myself.

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I just say that I work with people who
are dying and their families and friends.

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And then about 15 years ago, I
thought, Oh, I really need to put

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a name to it because I'm saying
this long sentence every time.

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And so I took the word Death
Walker because we're all

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walking towards our own deaths.

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We're all.

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00:03:25,580 --> 00:03:28,460
walking each other home
in the words of Ram Dass.

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And so that made it a much
more real term for me.

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And so I've used that to describe
myself because it's much more

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than what people call doula work.

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So it's about the legal aspects, the
practical aspects, the ceremony about

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body care after someone dies, and
just really, being across it all and

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then accompanying people in the part
that they need to be accompanied in.

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Catherine: Thank you for that explanation.

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You've been reclaiming death care
for over 30 years now and you're

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00:04:06,225 --> 00:04:08,475
considered a pioneer in the industry.

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You have a background
in legal and welfare.

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How did you get started?

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Was there a particular incident
that was the catalyst, or?

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Zenith: Well, I think, you know, our
whole lives take us on a journey, and

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sometimes when you look back at that,
you can think, oh, that was really

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Rate that I did that then, and it can
be something very small from a long

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time ago, or it can be something big.

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And a friend of mine died when I was 14.

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Suddenly he, uh, fell
on something at school.

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He was taken to hospital.

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The hospital didn't do their job
properly and were neglectful,

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and he died overnight.

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And in that moment, I learned that
death doesn't only come to the old,

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it comes to the young, and it can
come unexpectedly, and it can come

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through a range of different ways,
even when you think someone's in

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hospital care, and they're okay.

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And for the next couple of
years, I just really worked with

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that on the inside, I thought.

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What's the use in planning?

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I could be dead by the weekend.

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And so really, I've lived my whole
life as if I could die tomorrow.

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And that's been very helpful for
me, about seizing the moment, about

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saying yes to things, about being
unafraid, about being courageous,

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about being kind, about being helpful.

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And then when I was Uh, in my
twenties, in the eighties, uh, HIV

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came along to the queer community,
which is what I'm part of.

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And so I watched lots of really beautiful
young men contract HIV, some of whom died.

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uh, quickly, some of whom who
cured themselves because they did

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00:06:02,905 --> 00:06:07,055
not want to live what they thought
would be a death sentence and they

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would die dribbling in the hospital.

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And also many of those men survived
and that, you know, they were lucky

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00:06:15,224 --> 00:06:20,784
enough to live long enough for a great,
uh, medication to come into play.

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But again, it, and I remember one of those
in particular saying to me, You know, HIV

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has been a great gift to me because it's
taught me about the depth of life and

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something more important than partying
and Everything else that went with that.

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And I remember sitting with him and I
found that shocking, but of course now

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as years have gone by I understand it.

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So they were the two sort
of pivotal things for me.

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And then I was just busy living my life.

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Uh, I worked in law, so I had a
great understanding of, uh, paperwork

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and legality and process and that
most people in jobs of authority

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are just people doing their job.

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job.

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They're playing a role.

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And then a dear friend of mine
died one early one morning.

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She had an aneurysm in the garden
and was taken to hospital, but

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was clearly dead in the garden.

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And I went with her husband to visit her
body and he was going to identify her

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because she'd been taken off by ambulance.

108
00:07:32,100 --> 00:07:37,280
And while I was doing that, With him
in the morgue, I had this extraordinary

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experience of feeling her energy,
her life force, leave her body, and I

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00:07:44,639 --> 00:07:49,060
turned to, there were four other people
in the room to say, can you see this?

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And they were all busy crying or
looking away, and I just, Thought,

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00:07:55,104 --> 00:07:56,994
wow, this is obviously a phenomenon.

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00:07:57,485 --> 00:07:58,755
I don't want to miss it.

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I was a Buddhist at that stage I've
been exploring some Buddhist teachings

115
00:08:03,575 --> 00:08:09,245
and Anyway, when we walked out of
the morgue, I said to her husband,

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00:08:09,245 --> 00:08:13,744
you know, we can do this ourselves We
don't need to give her to a stranger.

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00:08:13,805 --> 00:08:17,300
We could look after it It,
I'm sure I can work that out.

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00:08:18,510 --> 00:08:20,390
And he said, Oh, that would be great.

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00:08:20,500 --> 00:08:20,810
Great.

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00:08:20,810 --> 00:08:23,550
Because we were sort of hippies
living on the North coast.

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00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:28,210
They were very spiritual couple,
had two teenage daughters.

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00:08:28,690 --> 00:08:34,940
And on my way home from Lismore to Byron,
where I lived, I saw a funeral directors

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00:08:34,940 --> 00:08:37,839
in Bangalore that I'd never seen before.

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00:08:37,839 --> 00:08:42,590
And I went in and said to the
guy, my best friend just died.

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00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:45,200
Can you explain to me what to do?

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00:08:46,430 --> 00:08:47,860
Incredibly, he said yes.

127
00:08:47,860 --> 00:08:49,630
He showed me how to fill in the forms.

128
00:08:49,630 --> 00:08:52,439
He offered to come and
help, not to interfere.

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00:08:52,930 --> 00:08:55,449
And from there, we did it all ourselves.

130
00:08:55,699 --> 00:08:59,120
He was always there at every
stage, but we never needed him.

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00:08:59,810 --> 00:09:07,220
And I was so incredibly impressed by his
generosity and his kindness to us, because

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00:09:07,230 --> 00:09:12,740
it's very unusual for a funeral director
to Tell you how to do it themselves.

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00:09:13,660 --> 00:09:19,310
And so I've always, because I never
got to thank him because when I

134
00:09:19,310 --> 00:09:22,460
went back to say thank you, the
funeral directors had disappeared.

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00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:28,120
Uh, but I'm bound by his
example to me of generosity.

136
00:09:28,125 --> 00:09:31,990
So just like you, if someone
asks me if something, if I

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00:09:31,990 --> 00:09:34,430
can possibly give it, I will.

138
00:09:34,850 --> 00:09:39,560
Because you never know what that
piece of information is going to seed.

139
00:09:40,215 --> 00:09:45,824
because everything that has come in the
last 30 years was made easier because

140
00:09:45,824 --> 00:09:50,474
of his generosity by sharing that
information with me so freely that day.

141
00:09:51,505 --> 00:09:52,035
Catherine: Oh, wow.

142
00:09:52,074 --> 00:09:53,485
That's really amazing.

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00:09:54,595 --> 00:09:57,905
And tell me what are the changes
that you've noticed within the

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00:09:57,905 --> 00:10:00,485
industry over those, those 30 years?

145
00:10:02,785 --> 00:10:06,430
Zenith: Well, it's been, it's been a
great It's been a great thing to witness.

146
00:10:06,430 --> 00:10:13,290
So in our area in particular, so 30 years
ago, before the internet, and I managed

147
00:10:13,300 --> 00:10:19,459
to track down someone in England, a guy
called Nicholas Aubrey, who had started

148
00:10:19,460 --> 00:10:22,369
the Natural Death Center in London.

149
00:10:22,595 --> 00:10:24,945
And I phoned him up one day.

150
00:10:25,275 --> 00:10:26,335
We had a big chat.

151
00:10:26,365 --> 00:10:29,825
I said to him, look, I want to start
something like that in Australia.

152
00:10:30,454 --> 00:10:32,014
Can I just use that name?

153
00:10:32,144 --> 00:10:33,594
I don't want to reinvent the wheel.

154
00:10:33,614 --> 00:10:35,784
And it's a such a perfect, simple name.

155
00:10:35,785 --> 00:10:37,384
And he said, absolutely.

156
00:10:37,384 --> 00:10:39,574
So he was also incredibly generous.

157
00:10:40,195 --> 00:10:40,375
Catherine: And

158
00:10:40,375 --> 00:10:41,745
Zenith: how did you hunt him down?

159
00:10:41,745 --> 00:10:43,085
I don't know.

160
00:10:43,085 --> 00:10:43,805
I can't remember.

161
00:10:43,805 --> 00:10:49,494
It's so long ago, but I just one phone
call with him, uh, late at night.

162
00:10:50,115 --> 00:10:53,155
And, and then he died shortly after that.

163
00:10:53,245 --> 00:10:59,525
He was killed in a car accident
and I didn't create that

164
00:10:59,535 --> 00:11:01,474
organization at that time.

165
00:11:01,514 --> 00:11:06,524
I just potted along for a while and then
because there was a decision that I had

166
00:11:06,535 --> 00:11:12,785
to make whether to make it a business
or a not for profit and it became very

167
00:11:12,785 --> 00:11:16,639
clear to, a lot of people wanted me to
create a business because they, they

168
00:11:17,189 --> 00:11:21,240
knew that I worked hard and that I
needed to be remunerated for that work.

169
00:11:21,750 --> 00:11:26,820
But it wasn't my, I'm, I'm
a community person at heart.

170
00:11:26,850 --> 00:11:30,250
And so I got very clear that it
needed to be a not for profit, which

171
00:11:30,250 --> 00:11:32,869
it has been, and now it's a charity.

172
00:11:33,879 --> 00:11:37,629
And he, I've since met his wife.

173
00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,439
I visit her if I'm in England.

174
00:11:39,490 --> 00:11:42,530
And also that organization is still going.

175
00:11:43,070 --> 00:11:43,500
And.

176
00:11:44,330 --> 00:11:49,440
So the fact for me that there were other
people like me all around the world,

177
00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:54,470
but I couldn't find them, but I knew
they had to be there, and most of them

178
00:11:54,590 --> 00:12:02,019
were old hippies or old feminists, home
birthers, uh, people who had reclaimed

179
00:12:02,019 --> 00:12:08,440
birth and so wanted now to reclaim death,
who were dissatisfied with that profit

180
00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,430
driven system run by men in black suits.

181
00:12:12,060 --> 00:12:12,500
And.

182
00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:18,369
Because in lots of places, it's very
easy to take, to reclaim it back into

183
00:12:18,369 --> 00:12:23,519
your own hands because the funeral
industry is a relatively new development.

184
00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:29,550
So for most of our existence as
human beings, families, tribes,

185
00:12:29,589 --> 00:12:35,180
communities, cultures looked
after their own dead and dying.

186
00:12:35,639 --> 00:12:38,970
And then they cared for the
body and then they took it to a

187
00:12:38,970 --> 00:12:44,119
place of burial or cremation or
whatever disposal methods they had.

188
00:12:44,725 --> 00:12:49,765
And then they honored that person
and they wept and cried and

189
00:12:49,765 --> 00:12:52,275
laughed and lived on together.

190
00:12:52,984 --> 00:12:57,314
But the funeral industry is relatively
new, like, let's say, three, four

191
00:12:57,314 --> 00:13:01,084
hundred years old, mostly run
by men because we're living in a

192
00:13:01,084 --> 00:13:05,345
patriarchal society where women
weren't allowed to do a lot of things.

193
00:13:06,005 --> 00:13:13,435
And so, consequently, that industry was
very narrow, You know, the patriarchy

194
00:13:13,435 --> 00:13:15,695
doesn't like women feeling their emotions.

195
00:13:15,695 --> 00:13:19,285
It doesn't like people crying all
over the place and being emotive.

196
00:13:19,745 --> 00:13:23,785
So it made it very tight,
very quick to deal with.

197
00:13:24,174 --> 00:13:30,244
So that, and also before refrigeration,
people had to be in the ground or disposed

198
00:13:30,244 --> 00:13:32,895
of in some way as quickly as possible.

199
00:13:32,954 --> 00:13:34,235
And then embalming.

200
00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:39,220
which was an ancient
practice, came back into play.

201
00:13:39,730 --> 00:13:43,839
And during the American Civil War,
because bodies had to be shipped

202
00:13:43,890 --> 00:13:49,289
north or south, because of the
fighting for truth and justice,

203
00:13:49,340 --> 00:13:52,320
and to stop enslavement of people.

204
00:13:52,910 --> 00:13:58,499
And so that process continued on, and
people could see it as a lucrative

205
00:13:58,529 --> 00:14:01,159
industry, because we are all going to die.

206
00:14:02,049 --> 00:14:07,525
And So reclaiming that back into our
own hands has been very satisfying

207
00:14:07,975 --> 00:14:13,255
because what it does is very clearly,
the more you participate, the more you're

208
00:14:13,255 --> 00:14:20,534
involved, the more decisions you, the
more informed decisions you make, the more

209
00:14:20,534 --> 00:14:25,835
consideration you have about a situation,
the better you feel at the end of it.

210
00:14:26,175 --> 00:14:30,064
So when you look back, you cannot
change the circumstances of the death.

211
00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:34,849
But you can look back and say,
wow, it was terrible when someone

212
00:14:34,859 --> 00:14:37,540
died, but we had a great funeral.

213
00:14:37,540 --> 00:14:39,130
We couldn't have done that any better.

214
00:14:39,159 --> 00:14:43,750
It was so beautiful to do this, to paint
the coffin, to wash and dress them,

215
00:14:44,130 --> 00:14:49,469
to dress them in their own clothes, to
fill that coffin with notes or flowers

216
00:14:49,489 --> 00:14:55,760
or things, uh, and then to carry them
ourselves and then to push them in the

217
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,449
cremator or to lower them into the grave.

218
00:14:58,939 --> 00:15:02,920
And then to throw that dirt on
top of them and then to eat and

219
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:07,869
drink together and to know that we
couldn't have done that any better.

220
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Because that process really supports
people in healing some of the pain and

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suffering around the death, especially
if it's sudden or shocking, but it

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also makes them have a healthier
bereavement because they are.

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Doing something with that energy, not just
turning up three or four days later with a

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box where they don't even see that person.

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And especially for
children to be involved.

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Where as the old practice was people
didn't even let children attend a funeral.

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Which is Terrible.

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Terrible.

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Because children will deal with it as
best they can, but otherwise it's missing.

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And a lot of people, my age or older, was
in situations where one of their parents

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would die or their sibling, and people
had a funeral, the kid didn't go, so

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they never really got what was happening.

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And sometimes they were never
allowed to discuss that person again.

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And I cannot imagine how painful and
confusing that would be as a child

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when someone that you love very much
suddenly disappears and no one tells

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you the truth about that situation.

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Catherine: Yes.

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And in such contrast to how we
encourage parenting today to

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Zenith: That's right.

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And death, death is a
natural part of our life.

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You know, being killed is, isn't
so natural, but it happens.

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But when a death is sudden and shocking,
it's very important that the process

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after death is as natural as Owned
and as participated in by family and

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friends, and when we say family, we
mean blood family, we mean family by

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love, or by marriage, or by friendship,
or by culture, so, you know, like, a

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chosen family is a very popular term,
so that those people are absolutely

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involved as much as they want to be.

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Catherine: Mm

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Zenith: hmm.

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Catherine: Now tell me about your role
as founder and executive officer of

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the Natural Death Care Centre charity.

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You mentioned, obviously, it was
inspired by the work that had

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been in the UK, but tell me about
how, uh, it started here for you.

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What was the, the thing that made you,
you start it that went, okay, yep,

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I'm definitely going to turn it into
a business or charity, as you did.

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Uh, and And what was the process for that?

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Zenith: I did, I did a sort of,
I'm English born, but I've lived in

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Australia for 40 years since my 20s.

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And after I'd been dealing with
death and doing lots of funerals, I

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went on a research trip to England,
really to talk about natural burials,

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green burials, more organic burials.

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And I know that England is so quirky.

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That it had a sort of really in a more
unbroken, uh, lineage, even though it

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had funeral directors, it just had this
history of burying people on the farm.

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And even in a city, I went to visit
my cousin and they had a grave in

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their back garden, which was quite a
small back garden in a row of shops.

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So in a very urban environment.

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And I said, what's that?

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They said, Oh, it's a grave.

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And I was just like, only the
English would allow that to happen,

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you know, to bury someone or build
a housing estate around a grave.

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I don't know which way it was.

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Catherine: I have to agree with that.

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We were there in October of last year
and I had a look at two natural burial

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grounds, Dalton and also Ibworth.

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But for me, what surprised me the most
is there's just church yards with graves

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everywhere you go, every little town.

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And it's just right next to where the 7
Eleven is or, you know, the main street.

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It's, it's really quite, it's shocking
from a Australian perspective where,

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you know, we're very much planned
out and work out where we're going

281
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to have our, our cemeteries and
how far they're going to be out.

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And yeah, so it was really quite amazing.

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So I totally agree with you.

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Zenith: Yeah.

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00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:37,055
And also when I was a child, my,
Grandparents, my father's parents, he

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00:19:37,055 --> 00:19:41,495
was the chief gravedigger at Wandsworth
Cemetery and they lived in a big

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00:19:41,495 --> 00:19:43,805
stone house at the top of a hill.

288
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So when I used to go to visit them once
a fortnight or something with my mother

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when I was little, we would have to walk
through that graveyard to that house.

290
00:19:54,345 --> 00:19:59,635
And so, but it's a very common thing
in England to take the kids to a

291
00:19:59,655 --> 00:20:03,385
graveyard because the cemeteries
are so full of amazing history

292
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on a Sunday and just go walking
through them and look at the graves.

293
00:20:07,685 --> 00:20:11,885
And it's not a morbid thing because
there's lots of sculpture because,

294
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especially as a working class person,
it's the nearest you're going to get

295
00:20:15,895 --> 00:20:21,505
to a sculpture garden because there's
angels and there's carvings and liam's

296
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and you know that some of them are You
have six, 700 years old, those graves.

297
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And so it's a history lesson.

298
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And, and to realize that, you know,
lots of children died, lots of women

299
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died in childbirth and you know, it's
part of learning about life and death.

300
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And so I already had all that going on,
which is very different, I think, to

301
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Australian, uh, childhoods, because,
but of course, if you go to Sydney,

302
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you've got those incredible cemeteries
on the cliffs, overlooking the

303
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ocean in some of the best, beautiful
spots in Sydney on that coastline.

304
00:21:01,354 --> 00:21:04,949
And so it's, you know, You know,
that's a beautiful thing that they

305
00:21:04,959 --> 00:21:07,009
haven't been used for real estate.

306
00:21:07,799 --> 00:21:11,699
So I had all that going on and I've
sort of forgotten what the question was.

307
00:21:11,749 --> 00:21:12,839
Oh, the death center.

308
00:21:13,049 --> 00:21:13,329
Yeah.

309
00:21:13,399 --> 00:21:18,550
So, uh, I went back to England to do
a research thing and it just became

310
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very clear to me that the people I met
who were involved in not for profit or

311
00:21:23,020 --> 00:21:26,639
trusts, they were very similar to me.

312
00:21:26,690 --> 00:21:32,000
We had a similar sort of way of being and
a level of integrity, not to say that.

313
00:21:32,350 --> 00:21:36,770
Some of the people in green funeral
parlors didn't have that, but there was

314
00:21:36,770 --> 00:21:38,540
just something for me that was so similar.

315
00:21:38,580 --> 00:21:44,110
And what was important for me was that
when people came looking for something,

316
00:21:44,110 --> 00:21:49,080
because again, it was before the
internet, I wanted to feel like we were.

317
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:56,590
a lighthouse in a dark place where people
could see that light and come towards it.

318
00:21:57,030 --> 00:22:01,780
And we would, I would refer them on
to people because people were telling,

319
00:22:01,810 --> 00:22:04,320
contacted me and telling me who they were.

320
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,639
So I was becoming like a
hub for a network of people.

321
00:22:09,020 --> 00:22:12,991
And often I was just the conduit
to get them to someone else.

322
00:22:12,991 --> 00:22:18,800
But what I wanted people to understand
what the, the, In a incorporated

323
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:24,020
association, there was an implicit
integrity that you didn't have to

324
00:22:24,020 --> 00:22:27,659
worry whether like, like a funeral
industry where people are going

325
00:22:27,659 --> 00:22:31,249
to rip you off, or they're going
to try and sell you something.

326
00:22:31,250 --> 00:22:32,519
We had nothing to sell.

327
00:22:33,070 --> 00:22:35,919
We just wanted to be a
networking organization.

328
00:22:36,499 --> 00:22:38,129
And we became that.

329
00:22:38,179 --> 00:22:38,560
And so.

330
00:22:38,775 --> 00:22:44,245
We, we, we have a committee and
they guided me, uh, consulted

331
00:22:44,264 --> 00:22:46,274
with them and they made decisions.

332
00:22:46,324 --> 00:22:49,844
I didn't make any of those decisions,
but we worked together and that

333
00:22:49,844 --> 00:22:55,314
was great to have a team who
were advisory and in governance.

334
00:22:56,215 --> 00:22:58,095
And it just worked like that.

335
00:22:58,115 --> 00:23:03,965
And then at some stage we had
a pro bono lawyer who did the

336
00:23:03,965 --> 00:23:05,995
work to make us into a charity.

337
00:23:06,044 --> 00:23:13,330
And also because we decided that the best
thing for us was to do pre need education.

338
00:23:13,940 --> 00:23:18,680
Because the more it grew, the more
people I was training, the more

339
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,830
people were out there doing that work.

340
00:23:20,910 --> 00:23:26,059
And it was my dream that there will
be someone in every community, whether

341
00:23:26,059 --> 00:23:32,405
that's geographic, sexual, cultural,
uh, um, spiritual, religious, whatever.

342
00:23:32,425 --> 00:23:35,885
There will be someone within
each community who could do

343
00:23:36,085 --> 00:23:38,095
that work for their people.

344
00:23:38,595 --> 00:23:42,124
And I've absolutely lived
long enough to see that.

345
00:23:42,155 --> 00:23:48,144
And that's an incredibly deeply
satisfying place to be where now no one

346
00:23:48,345 --> 00:23:53,054
hardly rings me to do the work itself
because they have someone that they

347
00:23:53,054 --> 00:23:55,054
know who can do that work for them.

348
00:23:55,694 --> 00:24:00,165
And that is a really satisfying You
know, as I say, it's deeply satisfying.

349
00:24:00,745 --> 00:24:10,245
And so the death center exists in order
to educate and to network people together

350
00:24:10,704 --> 00:24:15,175
and to just be a contact point for
people who are looking for something,

351
00:24:15,194 --> 00:24:18,834
but often they're not really looking
for us, they're looking for something

352
00:24:18,834 --> 00:24:24,734
else, but we convey them to that other
person in their state, for example.

353
00:24:25,824 --> 00:24:28,165
Catherine: And there's a range
of programs that you offer.

354
00:24:29,210 --> 00:24:30,910
Uh, through the center, isn't there?

355
00:24:32,094 --> 00:24:37,495
Zenith: Yeah, so we offer a three day
Death Walker training, which is basically

356
00:24:37,495 --> 00:24:41,494
everything you need to know about, uh,
preparing for death, death and dying.

357
00:24:41,505 --> 00:24:45,545
It's very practical, it has legal
aspects, has social aspects,

358
00:24:46,115 --> 00:24:49,720
has a bit of spirituality,
but it's very, very, uh, deep.

359
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,639
It talks about self care, if you're
going to be doing that work, about a

360
00:24:53,639 --> 00:24:58,330
way of being in that work so that you
don't merge with people's suffering,

361
00:24:58,330 --> 00:25:00,219
so you can love them in the suffering.

362
00:25:00,219 --> 00:25:05,009
And often what I'm saying is this is what
30 years on that cold face looks like

363
00:25:05,319 --> 00:25:10,209
when you've got great self care, where
you are not taking on their suffering,

364
00:25:10,479 --> 00:25:15,409
but you are loving them in their
suffering, and appreciating that people

365
00:25:15,409 --> 00:25:22,355
who are Distressed, uh, are functioning
human beings and it's fantastic

366
00:25:22,365 --> 00:25:24,355
that they can feel those emotions.

367
00:25:24,355 --> 00:25:28,825
They can feel that pain and suffering
when their person dies because it

368
00:25:28,825 --> 00:25:32,794
means they're not numb, they're not
paralyzed, they're not traumatized, they

369
00:25:32,794 --> 00:25:37,064
may be traumatized but they're being
able to move that trauma through that

370
00:25:37,064 --> 00:25:39,084
experience rather than just be paralyzed.

371
00:25:40,225 --> 00:25:44,305
Oh, you can't even see that because
it's on radio, but completely numb and

372
00:25:44,305 --> 00:25:47,085
completely unresponsive and shocked.

373
00:25:47,145 --> 00:25:49,515
It was a very good numb
face, I have to say.

374
00:25:50,984 --> 00:25:53,424
So, you know, so that, that's.

375
00:25:53,810 --> 00:25:55,510
We teach that three day workshop.

376
00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:02,250
I used to teach a two day ceremony master
class, which is about creating ceremony

377
00:26:02,260 --> 00:26:08,820
for complex death, but there is the
components of creating a great ceremony.

378
00:26:09,329 --> 00:26:13,009
The structure and content of that
are in that Death Walker training.

379
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:19,450
But I've also, during COVID, I put it
all online, because we didn't know what

380
00:26:19,450 --> 00:26:20,740
was going to happen with the world.

381
00:26:20,790 --> 00:26:24,340
And I thought that at least then
people who are still needing

382
00:26:24,340 --> 00:26:26,500
that information can do that.

383
00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:32,919
So there's a Death Walker training and the
Ceremony Masterclass is on that platform.

384
00:26:33,885 --> 00:26:34,354
Online.

385
00:26:34,834 --> 00:26:38,694
And there's also a consultation
and ceremony class.

386
00:26:38,705 --> 00:26:42,514
So ideally you would do the
three, Deathwalker, Ceremony and

387
00:26:42,514 --> 00:26:44,874
Consultation, and then the Masterclass.

388
00:26:44,874 --> 00:26:48,805
But you can do, if you don't want to be a
celebrant, you wouldn't worry about those,

389
00:26:48,825 --> 00:26:50,764
except for they're very informative.

390
00:26:51,945 --> 00:26:53,315
Catherine: Thank you for explaining that.

391
00:26:54,005 --> 00:26:56,884
Now, you mentioned
ceremony and ritual there.

392
00:26:57,375 --> 00:27:02,195
With being a member of the LGBTQ
community and the fact that you've married

393
00:27:02,195 --> 00:27:08,895
over 2, 500 couples, and I'm assuming
countless funerals as well, what have

394
00:27:08,895 --> 00:27:13,935
you noticed the difference between the
role that ceremony and ritual play,

395
00:27:14,445 --> 00:27:18,834
uh, at the end of life for someone who
is part of the, the queer community?

396
00:27:18,995 --> 00:27:20,074
Is there a difference?

397
00:27:21,914 --> 00:27:25,470
Zenith: Uh, It depends on that person.

398
00:27:25,470 --> 00:27:29,580
I mean, each person is unique
regardless of their sexuality.

399
00:27:30,290 --> 00:27:35,280
But how you die is basically
dependent on how you've lived.

400
00:27:35,970 --> 00:27:43,059
And for many gay, queer, lesbian
people, they have lived a functional,

401
00:27:43,569 --> 00:27:50,135
full rich life with a partner and
lots of friends, and they haven't been

402
00:27:50,135 --> 00:27:55,865
intimidated by the fact that other
people find their sexuality an issue.

403
00:27:56,215 --> 00:27:57,914
It may not be an issue for them.

404
00:27:58,675 --> 00:28:04,494
So I feel that the phrase coming out
has, is really past its use by date,

405
00:28:04,495 --> 00:28:10,335
because no one asks straight people
when they're 16 or 17, so are you gay?

406
00:28:10,485 --> 00:28:11,514
Are you heterosexual?

407
00:28:11,824 --> 00:28:15,154
You know, they don't have to declare
their sexuality because they're

408
00:28:15,154 --> 00:28:17,824
in a heteronormative society.

409
00:28:18,284 --> 00:28:23,284
So, a lot of people have lived very, like
me for example, very rich, full lives, and

410
00:28:23,415 --> 00:28:29,054
it's, it's, it's absolutely contributed
to who I am and how I am in the world.

411
00:28:29,774 --> 00:28:35,345
But other people, Have had a more
challenging experience often with

412
00:28:35,345 --> 00:28:39,875
their own internal feelings, but
also because they're surrounded by

413
00:28:40,374 --> 00:28:45,485
a dogma, a religion, a culture that
doesn't accept them for who they are.

414
00:28:45,525 --> 00:28:50,434
It's so for me, there are a
few core aspects of living.

415
00:28:50,434 --> 00:28:54,684
One is that most people
can expand into love.

416
00:28:56,030 --> 00:28:58,090
or contract into fear.

417
00:28:59,150 --> 00:29:04,220
And a lot of religions are
fear based and are contractual.

418
00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:05,840
So people are fearful.

419
00:29:05,869 --> 00:29:09,479
They're fearful of anything that's
different and they don't like

420
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,879
it because it means they have to
expand into love to accept that.

421
00:29:13,889 --> 00:29:18,939
And that is too challenging for them,
even though most of those religions are

422
00:29:19,150 --> 00:29:23,560
Expressing that they're love based, but
as we all know, some of them are fear

423
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:29,039
based and within all those religions,
you see fabulous people doing great

424
00:29:29,039 --> 00:29:34,740
work in out in their communities
who are loving and accepting and

425
00:29:34,750 --> 00:29:39,480
uplifting of people and spend a lot
of time brokering situations for other

426
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,560
people in in challenging situations.

427
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,480
So it depends very much on the person.

428
00:29:46,535 --> 00:29:53,445
And what's beautiful to see now is that
now queer people have the same legal

429
00:29:53,565 --> 00:29:58,255
and human rights in this country, but
still in other countries, they don't

430
00:29:58,265 --> 00:30:04,535
have those same equal human rights,
that culturally things are shifting.

431
00:30:04,940 --> 00:30:08,080
But of course, we all know, because
we don't have to look at the abortion,

432
00:30:08,130 --> 00:30:13,790
uh, the abortion debate in America and
know that, as someone once said, the

433
00:30:13,790 --> 00:30:20,290
price of freedom is eternal vigilance,
because if you do not pay attention

434
00:30:20,290 --> 00:30:25,525
to that, if you are not Stepping up to
that, then it can disappear in a moment.

435
00:30:25,575 --> 00:30:29,805
And I think people in our community
are very aware that just like

436
00:30:29,805 --> 00:30:33,355
it's been a long time coming, it
could disappear at any minute.

437
00:30:33,375 --> 00:30:38,225
And so people are trying very hard
to entrench those human rights into

438
00:30:38,235 --> 00:30:41,165
laws so that that cannot happen.

439
00:30:41,585 --> 00:30:43,595
But time will tell.

440
00:30:44,855 --> 00:30:51,075
You know, the sky didn't fall in,
society didn't collapse, you know,

441
00:30:51,135 --> 00:30:55,855
people didn't marry tables or
animals, you know, they, they didn't.

442
00:30:55,935 --> 00:31:00,885
And so hopefully people will have
expanded a bit more in their awareness

443
00:31:00,885 --> 00:31:06,105
and their maturity to see that really,
you know, you want to give people that

444
00:31:06,115 --> 00:31:11,140
right to, to, to, to, to commit to
someone and to create family that is

445
00:31:11,150 --> 00:31:16,380
safe and recognized by law and their
death will become a part of that.

446
00:31:18,430 --> 00:31:23,080
Catherine: And how have you seen,
through your experience, the

447
00:31:23,090 --> 00:31:24,940
individual has been celebrated?

448
00:31:24,940 --> 00:31:31,130
What unique sort of things have you
seen families and loved ones celebrate?

449
00:31:31,860 --> 00:31:32,620
In general?

450
00:31:32,620 --> 00:31:33,100
You're talking about?

451
00:31:33,100 --> 00:31:33,870
Yeah, in general.

452
00:31:34,020 --> 00:31:34,490
Zenith: Everyone.

453
00:31:34,790 --> 00:31:35,280
Yeah.

454
00:31:36,070 --> 00:31:40,560
Uh, I think the, you know, it's
sitting at the kitchen table.

455
00:31:40,570 --> 00:31:42,980
So for me, there's a very simple equation.

456
00:31:43,550 --> 00:31:47,700
So it's who the person
is, how they've lived.

457
00:31:48,055 --> 00:31:56,235
And how they die, plus who you are, your
relationship to them, and your familiarity

458
00:31:56,235 --> 00:32:00,315
with death will give you a response.

459
00:32:00,705 --> 00:32:04,690
And so, each equation Will be different.

460
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,360
And so the response to each
death will be different.

461
00:32:08,510 --> 00:32:12,190
So sometimes if it's someone old and
they've lived a great life and they

462
00:32:12,220 --> 00:32:18,080
died well, then it's a very easy
way to move into celebrating that

463
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:24,070
person or honoring their life because
some circumstances are terrible.

464
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,200
You know, it's a young person.

465
00:32:26,270 --> 00:32:27,310
They've been murdered.

466
00:32:27,660 --> 00:32:29,320
They've died in an accident.

467
00:32:29,730 --> 00:32:32,110
They've taken, killed themselves.

468
00:32:32,690 --> 00:32:36,280
And so that you know, taken an
overdose or something like that.

469
00:32:36,310 --> 00:32:41,270
And so that's a very different set
of circumstances to try to honor

470
00:32:41,270 --> 00:32:45,820
that person's life and acknowledge
the circumstances of their death.

471
00:32:46,430 --> 00:32:51,220
And a good celebrant, a good clergy
person, whoever is conducting that

472
00:32:51,220 --> 00:32:56,540
ceremony, who is sitting at the kitchen
table with that family, consulting

473
00:32:56,540 --> 00:33:01,410
with them, listening to everyone
who needs to be listened to, and co

474
00:33:01,410 --> 00:33:05,500
creating something offers healing.

475
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:10,250
offers understanding, offers a
chance to honor that person, to

476
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,510
honor the circumstances of their
death and their life, because some

477
00:33:14,510 --> 00:33:16,370
people have very challenging lives.

478
00:33:16,850 --> 00:33:19,945
And sometimes People
have become alcoholics.

479
00:33:19,945 --> 00:33:21,885
You don't know what the cause of that was.

480
00:33:22,385 --> 00:33:25,675
Who knows what happened to them
as children or as young people.

481
00:33:26,145 --> 00:33:28,845
But I don't think anybody makes a choice.

482
00:33:29,305 --> 00:33:31,005
I think I'm going to be an alcoholic.

483
00:33:31,005 --> 00:33:32,325
That's a great career move.

484
00:33:32,705 --> 00:33:36,605
It's usually because they're
in pain of some sort.

485
00:33:36,655 --> 00:33:42,095
And the more we know about child sexual
abuse and, you know, what happens in

486
00:33:42,475 --> 00:33:48,440
communities and families, is that I
generally give everybody the benefit of

487
00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:52,160
the doubt that that may have happened
to them, and I proceed accordingly,

488
00:33:53,350 --> 00:33:59,220
and that makes me a kinder person,
and it also allows for whatever needs

489
00:33:59,220 --> 00:34:02,920
to come to the surface to appear.

490
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:07,190
So when I go to sit at the
kitchen table, I don't say, Oh,

491
00:34:07,190 --> 00:34:09,590
I'm so sorry that someone's died.

492
00:34:10,470 --> 00:34:14,470
I sit down, I say, What
do you want from me?

493
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:15,990
What do you need from me?

494
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:23,390
And people then respond, but if I
smother them with my pity, or sympathy

495
00:34:23,390 --> 00:34:29,520
even, they, because sometimes they're
glad that person has died, because

496
00:34:29,530 --> 00:34:31,730
that person is free of their suffering.

497
00:34:32,630 --> 00:34:38,000
And if I come in with my smothery
approach, they won't tell me that.

498
00:34:38,455 --> 00:34:45,475
Because I'm making the assumption
that they are destroyed by that death.

499
00:34:45,815 --> 00:34:50,135
And sometimes people have behaved
terribly, or it's an abusive person,

500
00:34:50,135 --> 00:34:53,415
and so people say, you know what,
Zenith, we're glad they're dead.

501
00:34:53,705 --> 00:34:57,475
They've been a terrible person
to us all our lives, and

502
00:34:57,485 --> 00:34:59,055
now we feel that we're free.

503
00:34:59,935 --> 00:35:07,055
And if I If I come in open and real
and authentic, but completely present,

504
00:35:07,095 --> 00:35:13,335
but open to find out what is happening
in that family, not what I think it

505
00:35:13,335 --> 00:35:18,645
might look like, then that is, and
I was very fortunate to learn that

506
00:35:18,645 --> 00:35:23,425
lesson quite quickly because I was that
sort of person and I didn't come with

507
00:35:23,425 --> 00:35:25,249
any training, I was just That's true.

508
00:35:25,390 --> 00:35:30,500
People just asked me to come when they
were dying or when someone had died.

509
00:35:30,570 --> 00:35:32,490
And so I had to learn on the job.

510
00:35:33,150 --> 00:35:38,560
And I had a very simple code, which
was I'm doing for others what I

511
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,530
would want someone to do for me.

512
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:41,470
Ooh.

513
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:46,850
And so when I sat at the kitchen table,
I assumed I was that 10 year old child.

514
00:35:46,900 --> 00:35:49,130
I assumed that I was that elderly parent.

515
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,110
I assumed that I was that partner.

516
00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:56,520
And I proceeded to behave in a way that
I would want someone to behave with me

517
00:35:56,530 --> 00:36:01,420
by putting myself in their shoes, but
without knowing all the circumstances.

518
00:36:01,490 --> 00:36:05,830
So, I trod very carefully,
but very clearly.

519
00:36:06,610 --> 00:36:08,360
And I learned a lot.

520
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:15,670
I learned a lot really fast and it's
that, you know, knowledge and experience

521
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:21,620
that I learned from each family, from
each person and took that into the next

522
00:36:21,670 --> 00:36:27,960
and the next and so by offering people
an openness and listening to what each

523
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:33,340
person at the table has to say, you can
create something together with them.

524
00:36:33,595 --> 00:36:36,425
that they feel is theirs, not mine.

525
00:36:36,425 --> 00:36:37,709
I'm not doing it all for them.

526
00:36:39,130 --> 00:36:42,500
And how I saw my role was to
be the beginning and the end,

527
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,800
but the middle part was theirs.

528
00:36:45,310 --> 00:36:49,490
And so really what I was doing was setting
a pace to be able to support them, to

529
00:36:49,500 --> 00:36:52,070
be able to share about their person.

530
00:36:52,820 --> 00:36:56,570
So I never say anything deep
and meaningful, or even deep,

531
00:36:56,650 --> 00:36:58,660
about someone I've never met.

532
00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:00,450
I say, I never met them.

533
00:37:00,685 --> 00:37:05,845
While I was alive, I met with their family
and together we have created this for you.

534
00:37:06,175 --> 00:37:10,525
But you and them are going to make
this happen in the way that's the most

535
00:37:10,525 --> 00:37:15,885
appropriate for you, because you're the
people that knew and loved that person.

536
00:37:16,505 --> 00:37:21,415
And people love you for not talking about
someone that you never met, as if you did.

537
00:37:22,335 --> 00:37:29,040
And so, But really it makes them have
to step up because when they've done

538
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,880
that, even though it's challenging,
like anything that's challenging,

539
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,570
we feel fantastic afterwards because
we feel that sense of achievement.

540
00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:44,410
And I spend a lot of time getting men
in particular to stand up to speak.

541
00:37:45,235 --> 00:37:50,605
So that they can stand in their
honor, because for women, if women

542
00:37:50,605 --> 00:37:53,375
don't speak at that funeral, they'll
just say, oh, I couldn't speak at my

543
00:37:53,375 --> 00:37:55,015
mom's funeral, I was too emotional.

544
00:37:55,565 --> 00:37:56,945
And that's the end of it.

545
00:37:57,095 --> 00:37:58,755
They don't beat themselves up.

546
00:37:59,275 --> 00:38:00,525
They don't feel dishonorable.

547
00:38:00,685 --> 00:38:03,965
They just feel that they couldn't
do it, and that was that.

548
00:38:04,665 --> 00:38:09,990
But for men, if men do not stand up and
honor someone, and the reason that What

549
00:38:09,990 --> 00:38:15,530
stops them is they are too emotional
and they don't know how to manage those

550
00:38:15,530 --> 00:38:17,650
emotions or express them in public.

551
00:38:18,270 --> 00:38:23,040
So, I think it's one of the most
courageous things, a man or a young

552
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:29,030
boy or an old man or anybody, anybody,
absolutely anybody, but more men who are

553
00:38:29,030 --> 00:38:34,100
in the culture where they're not allowed
to cry, then they've been suppressed

554
00:38:34,110 --> 00:38:39,735
from showing any emotions because that's
not how they want boys and men to be.

555
00:38:40,335 --> 00:38:45,765
And so to get them to stand up there and
cry in public and then be able to speak

556
00:38:46,225 --> 00:38:51,455
is an incredibly satisfying thing to watch
because they are not going to live with

557
00:38:51,465 --> 00:38:56,945
the regret that they weren't person enough
to honor that person that they loved.

558
00:38:57,325 --> 00:39:02,235
And if, if I, if I only do
that once a year, that's it.

559
00:39:02,505 --> 00:39:07,035
I only have to make it that difference
for one person and it's a good year,

560
00:39:07,665 --> 00:39:13,955
but of course, I'm doing a lot more than
that, but it's the subtlety of humanity

561
00:39:13,985 --> 00:39:20,815
and people's responses and, and just
watching how incredibly capable and

562
00:39:20,815 --> 00:39:24,369
courageous people are in times of crisis.

563
00:39:25,130 --> 00:39:26,770
that are challenging to them.

564
00:39:27,130 --> 00:39:31,500
And so to, to walk with them, to
accompany them, to guide them through

565
00:39:31,500 --> 00:39:36,360
an experience that I've been through
a million times with everybody and

566
00:39:36,530 --> 00:39:41,460
have a torch to show them the way
is, you know, that's all they need.

567
00:39:41,460 --> 00:39:45,090
They just need to lean into
someone that they feel that

568
00:39:45,100 --> 00:39:47,020
they can depend on and trust.

569
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:52,650
And so authenticity, integrity,
the willingness to walk with them.

570
00:39:53,270 --> 00:39:58,980
even when I didn't know what I was doing,
was an incredible gift to bring to people.

571
00:39:59,250 --> 00:40:04,410
And we were co creating and we
were co teaching each other what

572
00:40:04,410 --> 00:40:06,770
it meant to be in those situations.

573
00:40:06,780 --> 00:40:11,280
So I was very fortunate to get all
the learning without the suffering.

574
00:40:12,810 --> 00:40:17,660
And people were incredibly courageous
and incredibly open and trusting

575
00:40:18,420 --> 00:40:20,450
because they felt they could trust.

576
00:40:20,490 --> 00:40:25,060
I was willing to stand up and be there
with them and we got there together.

577
00:40:26,220 --> 00:40:27,020
Catherine: That's lovely.

578
00:40:27,830 --> 00:40:30,860
And what are the other things
that you think that families

579
00:40:30,860 --> 00:40:32,080
might find challenging?

580
00:40:32,370 --> 00:40:37,850
You've obviously talked about
men, ashamed or embarrassed to

581
00:40:37,850 --> 00:40:39,460
actually show their emotions.

582
00:40:39,830 --> 00:40:44,320
What other things have you noticed
that are consistent across families

583
00:40:44,350 --> 00:40:46,804
that are challenging when someone dies?

584
00:40:49,245 --> 00:40:52,025
Zenith: I don't think there
is any consistency that

585
00:40:52,035 --> 00:40:54,695
no two families are alike.

586
00:40:54,725 --> 00:40:56,365
No two people are alike.

587
00:40:56,365 --> 00:40:59,775
So you can be sitting at that table,
one person will absolutely love

588
00:40:59,805 --> 00:41:04,055
that person and the other person
hasn't liked them all their life.

589
00:41:04,055 --> 00:41:09,159
So you have to dance with what is
in front of you and you have to be.

590
00:41:10,070 --> 00:41:16,650
Uh, so, in your own integrity, that
people will trust you, even at the table.

591
00:41:17,110 --> 00:41:21,910
So, but the biggest thing is when
there's been a family dispute, or

592
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:28,350
divide, or something for a long time,
and death will generally magnify that.

593
00:41:28,990 --> 00:41:32,510
And some people will
behave incredibly well.

594
00:41:32,690 --> 00:41:37,760
They will be the very best people they
can be in that situation and others

595
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:43,910
will behave appallingly and behave and
become the very worst of themselves.

596
00:41:44,300 --> 00:41:47,530
And you, you won't know that's
happening until you're either at the

597
00:41:47,530 --> 00:41:50,160
kitchen table or during the ceremony.

598
00:41:50,940 --> 00:41:56,090
But hopefully you can, if you're paying
attention at the kitchen table, you will.

599
00:41:57,230 --> 00:42:01,890
Be able to ask people what's happening,
they will be able to tell you and you

600
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:07,100
can dance with it or someone will tell
you on the side, uh, something that

601
00:42:07,100 --> 00:42:11,910
you need to be mindful of and then you
can either try and address it before

602
00:42:11,910 --> 00:42:14,590
it becomes an issue or create it.

603
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:19,620
An environment that it can be expressed
at the funeral or in a meeting,

604
00:42:19,900 --> 00:42:22,030
and you can dissolve some of that.

605
00:42:22,030 --> 00:42:28,370
You can disarm some of that intensity,
but it's not my place to be a counselor.

606
00:42:28,740 --> 00:42:33,100
It's not my place to be a referee, but
I have sat there where some people,

607
00:42:33,260 --> 00:42:35,180
siblings will have had a fight.

608
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,280
Uh, you know, a verbal
fight, not a fisticuffs.

609
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,560
And I've sat there and I've just thought,
you know, this can only happen because

610
00:42:42,620 --> 00:42:48,550
I am sitting here and they trust me
enough to be able to say these things

611
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,480
to each other that they should have said
years ago, but they're saying them now.

612
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,500
And, and I have to trust that that is
exactly what needs to happen because

613
00:42:58,010 --> 00:43:04,640
I am coming, I am probably 10 hours
in that, in their family experience.

614
00:43:05,325 --> 00:43:10,865
They've got 50 years together or whatever,
so it's not my job to resolve it, but

615
00:43:10,865 --> 00:43:15,895
it's my job to try and assist them to make
that moment the very best it can be in the

616
00:43:15,895 --> 00:43:18,385
set of circumstances that they have got.

617
00:43:19,075 --> 00:43:21,805
And I'm not afraid to be that person.

618
00:43:21,835 --> 00:43:25,615
If it was shit, I would
just say, I'm out of here.

619
00:43:25,875 --> 00:43:26,695
You're on your own.

620
00:43:26,855 --> 00:43:29,845
This is too dysfunctional for
me, and I would just walk away.

621
00:43:29,845 --> 00:43:32,975
I wouldn't have any problem
at all saying that, because

622
00:43:32,975 --> 00:43:34,775
I'm smart enough to know that.

623
00:43:35,850 --> 00:43:40,570
And be able to read and listen and
see what is actually happening.

624
00:43:40,620 --> 00:43:45,270
And sometimes it's just part of that
process that needs to happen in order

625
00:43:45,350 --> 00:43:50,970
for it to clear as a blockage on
their way to resolving that situation.

626
00:43:51,450 --> 00:43:55,580
So I'm not so interested in
what the ceremony looks like.

627
00:43:56,530 --> 00:44:01,220
I'm more interested in what it feels
like and what happens for those people

628
00:44:01,230 --> 00:44:04,880
on the inside as part of their process.

629
00:44:05,180 --> 00:44:09,320
So I'm bringing the very best of
who I am to that moment to assist

630
00:44:09,330 --> 00:44:12,050
them in that transformation.

631
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:17,950
And I'm, prepared to give it
a go, but I don't take shit

632
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,520
from anybody at the same time.

633
00:44:19,730 --> 00:44:23,840
So it, you know, that comes back to that
self care you were talking about before.

634
00:44:23,870 --> 00:44:24,710
Yeah, that's right.

635
00:44:24,710 --> 00:44:28,450
You need to know what your boundaries,
you need to set some boundaries, know

636
00:44:28,450 --> 00:44:35,480
what they are, and then not Take them
down, unless you want to, but Now,

637
00:44:36,140 --> 00:44:38,560
Catherine: Zenith, what have you
done to prepare for your own death?

638
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,010
Zenith: Uh, not much, I can tell you.

639
00:44:43,010 --> 00:44:47,430
I've done all the legal paperwork and put
that in place, which I feel every person

640
00:44:47,430 --> 00:44:52,630
over 18 should have a will, even if you
only own a car, and a computer, and a bed.

641
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:58,270
Uh, because without that piece
of paper, It is a real hassle for

642
00:44:58,270 --> 00:44:59,960
the people who are left behind.

643
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,620
There are other pieces of paper that are
appropriate for when you're alive, and

644
00:45:05,620 --> 00:45:08,040
you cannot make decisions for yourself.

645
00:45:08,450 --> 00:45:09,910
So have all of that in place.

646
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:17,735
But after that, I've written a toast to
be read with a glass of champagne and, but

647
00:45:17,775 --> 00:45:24,535
I haven't spent 30 years on that coalface
changing how we do death and talking to

648
00:45:24,555 --> 00:45:28,785
my friends and family for them not to
be able to get something together that

649
00:45:28,785 --> 00:45:31,275
is absolutely the very best it can be.

650
00:45:31,275 --> 00:45:35,495
I'm not that much of a control
freak, so I don't really care.

651
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:37,110
I don't care what happens.

652
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,660
I care what happens in that moment.

653
00:45:40,530 --> 00:45:44,190
I care what happens in my dying,
whether that's on the side of the road,

654
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,230
or in weeks leading up to something.

655
00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:51,250
But after that, I really don't care.

656
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:53,620
I'm much more interested
in life than Jeff.

657
00:45:55,075 --> 00:45:58,695
Catherine: And just on that point
about being more interested in life,

658
00:45:59,215 --> 00:46:04,495
we were talking off recording earlier
about how you celebrate your birthday.

659
00:46:05,525 --> 00:46:06,775
Tell me a little bit about that.

660
00:46:07,725 --> 00:46:12,515
Zenith: Well, I feel incredibly
fortunate to be healthy, you know,

661
00:46:12,845 --> 00:46:14,945
a fully functioning human being.

662
00:46:14,945 --> 00:46:17,075
I mean, of course, everyone's
messed up somewhere.

663
00:46:17,075 --> 00:46:21,115
It's not like everyone's perfect,
but I have a life that is very rich.

664
00:46:21,665 --> 00:46:23,375
Doing work that I enjoy.

665
00:46:23,375 --> 00:46:25,085
I'm learning a lot all the time.

666
00:46:25,085 --> 00:46:30,945
I'm sharing that knowledge and experience
with others that is helpful to them.

667
00:46:31,385 --> 00:46:37,215
I have an incredible community of
a very diverse community of lots

668
00:46:37,215 --> 00:46:43,015
of different Friends and different
subcultures and different age groups.

669
00:46:43,045 --> 00:46:47,875
And I've just had my 67th
birthday, which was a massive

670
00:46:47,925 --> 00:46:51,005
party with fabulous speeches.

671
00:46:51,045 --> 00:46:55,045
And it was just really beautiful
to watch everybody come together.

672
00:46:55,575 --> 00:47:00,195
And, And be busy, because it's a
great preparation for when you die,

673
00:47:00,475 --> 00:47:04,935
so that those people are connected
together, they'll make a great ceremony

674
00:47:05,175 --> 00:47:11,045
for themselves, and for me, and I
think every, really every birthday

675
00:47:11,415 --> 00:47:16,205
is an opportunity to celebrate who
you are, and it's a preparation

676
00:47:16,485 --> 00:47:18,485
for your friends for when you die.

677
00:47:19,825 --> 00:47:23,155
And for yourself, knowing that
that birthday could be your last

678
00:47:23,165 --> 00:47:27,635
and I know because I'm often at
friends birthdays and then I'm

679
00:47:27,995 --> 00:47:29,585
conducting their funeral for them.

680
00:47:30,205 --> 00:47:34,015
And when I refer back to that
birthday and say, Oh God, that

681
00:47:34,015 --> 00:47:35,205
was such a great birthday.

682
00:47:35,525 --> 00:47:39,435
And everybody goes, yeah, and you
can feel that energy in the room.

683
00:47:39,735 --> 00:47:43,245
But if, if they'd missed that moment,
you'd be saying such a bummer.

684
00:47:43,245 --> 00:47:46,525
They didn't have that birthday and have
all their friends and family in one

685
00:47:46,525 --> 00:47:48,785
place because now they're missing it.

686
00:47:48,785 --> 00:47:49,195
Yeah.

687
00:47:49,485 --> 00:47:55,715
So I think, you know, honoring who we
are and our place in our family, in

688
00:47:55,715 --> 00:48:01,175
our friends, in the world is a really
important thing to do and take, because

689
00:48:01,175 --> 00:48:06,645
it's an opportunity also to take stock
and see whether the life you're living is

690
00:48:06,645 --> 00:48:08,185
actually the one you want to be living.

691
00:48:08,185 --> 00:48:12,085
And some things need to change, and
it gives people that opportunity

692
00:48:12,125 --> 00:48:17,295
to change those things that
aren't or, uh, um, detrimental.

693
00:48:17,390 --> 00:48:23,460
Catherine: Now, Zenith, you've
just actually finished your ninth

694
00:48:23,460 --> 00:48:28,260
season of the Vagina Conversations
at Brunswick Picturehouse in

695
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:30,080
Brunswick Heads in New South Wales.

696
00:48:30,550 --> 00:48:35,340
Can you please tell me about this project
and how it came about and what is it?

697
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:42,890
Zenith: So, ten Eleven years ago, a
young woman arrived in the Byron Shire,

698
00:48:42,930 --> 00:48:47,360
and she wanted to put on the Vagina
Monologues, which is a set piece by Eve

699
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:53,630
Ensler, created probably 20 years ago
now, very powerful, and Eve Ensler did

700
00:48:53,630 --> 00:48:58,820
a range of interviews, and then collated
together some monologues, which were the

701
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,760
condensing of those stories into a story.

702
00:49:02,430 --> 00:49:07,820
And people could do those and do it
as a fundraiser for a women's service.

703
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:13,610
And she asked me if I would emcee
those two annual events, which I did.

704
00:49:14,130 --> 00:49:16,670
And then she said, I'm done, I
don't need to do this anymore.

705
00:49:17,190 --> 00:49:21,630
But I just thought, you know, we've,
these stories are 20 years old.

706
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,400
We have got enough great Women
and people with vaginas in our

707
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:30,500
community, we can tell our own stories
because everyone's got a story.

708
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:37,700
And so I created an event, I invited 10
women to come and tell their stories.

709
00:49:37,700 --> 00:49:42,670
I produced it, I directed it, we did,
I was one of those people, I delivered

710
00:49:42,670 --> 00:49:44,520
those, we delivered those stories.

711
00:49:45,310 --> 00:49:50,220
Uh, it's sold out and we made something
like 5, 000 for the local domestic

712
00:49:50,220 --> 00:49:52,420
violence service in Mullumbimbi.

713
00:49:53,175 --> 00:49:57,475
And so the next year we put on
two nights, I invited another 10

714
00:49:57,485 --> 00:49:59,345
different people, mostly women.

715
00:50:00,145 --> 00:50:06,385
Uh, and we made on two nights, we
made 8, 000, something like that.

716
00:50:07,015 --> 00:50:09,025
And it's just continued from there.

717
00:50:09,025 --> 00:50:10,875
So this year was the ninth year.

718
00:50:11,305 --> 00:50:15,645
We did four nights because the
first three sold out so quickly.

719
00:50:15,915 --> 00:50:22,605
Uh, we had the opportunity to do a
fourth one and we made 32, 000 for the

720
00:50:22,605 --> 00:50:27,435
local community, uh, domestic violence
service and also the one in Tweed.

721
00:50:27,485 --> 00:50:32,550
They do it, they take a night,
but all up we made 32, 000,

722
00:50:32,550 --> 00:50:34,535
which we just give to them.

723
00:50:34,545 --> 00:50:36,415
They don't have to account for that money.

724
00:50:36,415 --> 00:50:39,695
They can spend it however
they want with people.

725
00:50:39,705 --> 00:50:41,805
So it's a win for the presenters.

726
00:50:41,815 --> 00:50:43,265
It's a win for the audience.

727
00:50:43,275 --> 00:50:44,695
It's very educational.

728
00:50:45,085 --> 00:50:46,075
It's political.

729
00:50:46,115 --> 00:50:47,395
Sometimes it's shocking.

730
00:50:47,395 --> 00:50:48,595
Sometimes it's funny.

731
00:50:49,190 --> 00:50:53,770
It's a win for the domestic violence
workers who feel supported and

732
00:50:53,770 --> 00:50:55,330
have more money to play with.

733
00:50:55,810 --> 00:50:59,520
It's a win for the users of that service.

734
00:50:59,790 --> 00:51:04,930
It's a win for all the local businesses
who donate prizes to us because

735
00:51:05,420 --> 00:51:10,600
people know that they donate those
prizes and support those businesses.

736
00:51:11,130 --> 00:51:16,060
But really it's, It's a
connecting, powerful thing.

737
00:51:16,060 --> 00:51:20,710
It's become an annual event and what
it's also done is made the word vagina

738
00:51:21,250 --> 00:51:24,930
much more common because people are
saying, Oh, I'll see you at the vaginas.

739
00:51:24,930 --> 00:51:26,379
I'm going to the vaginas.

740
00:51:26,380 --> 00:51:28,040
I'm going to be a vagina this year.

741
00:51:28,430 --> 00:51:30,160
I was a vagina last year.

742
00:51:30,720 --> 00:51:32,470
And it's educative.

743
00:51:32,490 --> 00:51:36,650
So we're telling, you know, usually
as part of that, that women have 10,

744
00:51:36,700 --> 00:51:41,100
000 nerve endings in their clitoris.

745
00:51:41,100 --> 00:51:41,179
Yeah.

746
00:51:42,290 --> 00:51:45,460
Catherine: Which, well, on that
point, I should probably, uh,

747
00:51:45,860 --> 00:51:47,730
actually show you what's on my desk.

748
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:48,800
Oh, Charlie, good.

749
00:51:48,860 --> 00:51:49,350
Great.

750
00:51:49,940 --> 00:51:54,890
Uh, I have just shown Zenith that I
have a rubber clitoris on my desk, uh,

751
00:51:54,940 --> 00:52:00,230
courtesy of my, my urologist, who is
Professor Helen, uh, O'Connell, who

752
00:52:00,470 --> 00:52:02,430
discovered and matched the clitoris.

753
00:52:02,430 --> 00:52:06,890
Uh, so, so yes, that's my
little trophy from my urologist.

754
00:52:06,890 --> 00:52:08,309
So

755
00:52:08,310 --> 00:52:10,990
Zenith: we would love
to have her as a vagina.

756
00:52:11,340 --> 00:52:14,980
Should she want to come and spend
four days in the Byron Shire?

757
00:52:15,745 --> 00:52:20,385
Catherine: It's, it's rather amazing that
it took so long and it took, you know, uh,

758
00:52:20,395 --> 00:52:22,425
all that time to actually have it mapped.

759
00:52:22,735 --> 00:52:24,155
It says a lot of things, doesn't it?

760
00:52:25,075 --> 00:52:25,515
Zenith: Yeah.

761
00:52:25,575 --> 00:52:28,005
I mean, I would probably
say it's not amazing.

762
00:52:28,005 --> 00:52:34,905
It's part of a massive conspiracy or
cover up by the medical system, which was,

763
00:52:35,065 --> 00:52:40,685
you know, staffed by men who, and only
men were allowed to learn those things.

764
00:52:40,735 --> 00:52:45,775
And so I'm sure when they were doing
autopsies and whatever they were doing

765
00:52:45,775 --> 00:52:49,885
with dead bodies, they discovered that,
but they did not give that information

766
00:52:49,885 --> 00:52:54,935
to the world because they would have
cut those bodies up absolutely dead.

767
00:52:55,105 --> 00:52:59,005
bit by bit to discover all
the working parts of a body.

768
00:52:59,425 --> 00:53:05,035
And I'm sure they were fascinated
by women's bodies in particular,

769
00:53:05,035 --> 00:53:07,305
because our bodies are so phenomenal.

770
00:53:07,345 --> 00:53:08,785
They're so amazing.

771
00:53:09,235 --> 00:53:12,805
And our vagina is, you know, the
strongest and the most amazing and

772
00:53:12,805 --> 00:53:15,225
complex body part on the planet.

773
00:53:15,775 --> 00:53:21,325
And so, you know, it's not, By chance
that that was hidden or discovered.

774
00:53:22,615 --> 00:53:26,235
Catherine: And also omitted from
the Grey's Anatomy handbook.

775
00:53:26,755 --> 00:53:27,135
Yeah.

776
00:53:27,325 --> 00:53:28,425
Any reference to it.

777
00:53:28,745 --> 00:53:29,285
Zenith: Yeah.

778
00:53:29,385 --> 00:53:35,460
And then you have to look at, you know,
FGM, female genital mutilation, and that's

779
00:53:35,460 --> 00:53:40,750
been happening for years, and that is a
way of punishing and controlling women.

780
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:45,910
And that, you know, that
is not a humane activity.

781
00:53:45,910 --> 00:53:51,940
I know it's a cultural activity, but I'm,
cannot, support that in any shape or form.

782
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,100
Catherine: No, I don't think
that you're the only one with

783
00:53:56,110 --> 00:53:57,520
that opinion, Zenith, at all.

784
00:53:58,270 --> 00:54:03,140
Now, Zenith, I've heard you mention
in your TEDx Byron talk, point number

785
00:54:03,350 --> 00:54:08,350
eight of advice that you give to people
before they, uh, you know, as they

786
00:54:08,350 --> 00:54:10,110
prepare themselves for end of life.

787
00:54:10,770 --> 00:54:15,870
Now, it's not advice that you
hear in most, uh, sort of places.

788
00:54:16,330 --> 00:54:20,530
Can you please explain to me
what La Petite Morte means?

789
00:54:21,950 --> 00:54:25,700
Zenith: Yeah, so it's a French
expression which means the small death.

790
00:54:26,815 --> 00:54:33,595
And it's usually in respect to the
orgasm, whether that's a male or a

791
00:54:33,595 --> 00:54:36,545
female or anybody in between orgasm.

792
00:54:37,315 --> 00:54:42,455
And it's been, I don't know when it came
into being or when it was used, but it's

793
00:54:42,455 --> 00:54:44,725
a very common awareness that people have.

794
00:54:45,375 --> 00:54:50,435
And as part of that TEDx talk, what
I was doing was sharing eight things

795
00:54:50,435 --> 00:54:53,625
that I had learned about death.

796
00:54:54,085 --> 00:55:00,435
In my work over the last 30 years, and
one of those was that, uh, sex was a

797
00:55:00,435 --> 00:55:07,165
great practice for dying because it's an
opportunity to expand, it's an opportunity

798
00:55:07,165 --> 00:55:12,635
to merge into something much bigger, to
be out, feel something more than our skin.

799
00:55:13,315 --> 00:55:17,605
And, uh, I think really if you
need it in full detail, then,

800
00:55:17,605 --> 00:55:20,160
uh, Check out the TEDx talk.

801
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,540
It's only, I think, 15
minutes, but it also has lots

802
00:55:23,540 --> 00:55:25,830
of other really valid points.

803
00:55:25,830 --> 00:55:30,630
I wanted it to be as helpful
and as useful as it could be.

804
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:38,350
But yeah, because if, and that
was the premise, was if, if orgasm

805
00:55:38,770 --> 00:55:42,360
is la petite mort, is death.

806
00:55:42,940 --> 00:55:50,430
The total body orgasm and I feel that
that is absolutely possible and because

807
00:55:50,430 --> 00:55:56,420
no one comes back to tell the tale, but
I think that that's for me, that works

808
00:55:56,420 --> 00:56:01,660
as a concept, not in some airy fairy
way, but in a way that if you are working

809
00:56:01,660 --> 00:56:08,070
towards something and you are practicing
at something a bit like going to sleep,

810
00:56:08,090 --> 00:56:11,790
you know, going to sleep is also a great
practice for dying because you're, you

811
00:56:11,790 --> 00:56:16,145
know, You're trusting, you're falling
into a deeper trust, which I don't

812
00:56:16,145 --> 00:56:20,945
want to terrify anybody from falling
asleep, but there's something in that,

813
00:56:20,955 --> 00:56:26,285
that when you give over to something
bigger than ourselves, bigger than

814
00:56:26,285 --> 00:56:30,945
what we know, because no one knows what
happens when we're sleeping, and so,

815
00:56:30,995 --> 00:56:35,955
but sex is a great practice for dying, I
absolutely believe that, and it's lots of

816
00:56:35,955 --> 00:56:36,445
Catherine: fun.

817
00:56:37,705 --> 00:56:40,354
Well, we will definitely make
sure we include the link to the

818
00:56:40,355 --> 00:56:44,175
TEDx Byron talk in the resources.

819
00:56:45,635 --> 00:56:50,035
Now, I can't thank you enough for
spending time with us this afternoon.

820
00:56:50,555 --> 00:56:56,895
Is there any other advice or encouragement
that you'd like to give our listeners?

821
00:56:58,640 --> 00:56:59,110
Well,

822
00:56:59,180 --> 00:57:02,530
Zenith: I think, you know, if
you, if you want to die well, then

823
00:57:02,530 --> 00:57:04,080
clearly you have to live well.

824
00:57:04,170 --> 00:57:07,360
And I think a lot of people,
and that doesn't mean you have

825
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:09,880
to be the top of your field.

826
00:57:09,890 --> 00:57:14,210
It means you can, you can just become the
very best person that you can be in the

827
00:57:14,210 --> 00:57:17,730
set of circumstances that life offers you.

828
00:57:18,220 --> 00:57:23,845
But You know, our lives are a work
in progress, our deaths will become

829
00:57:23,845 --> 00:57:30,805
part of that, and one of the greatest
things a grandparent can do is to

830
00:57:30,805 --> 00:57:35,149
teach the grandchildren or young people
in their lives a little something.

831
00:57:35,740 --> 00:57:41,050
Example of dying well and of
explaining death, because what they're

832
00:57:41,190 --> 00:57:44,450
doing is preparing those children
for the death of their parents,

833
00:57:44,490 --> 00:57:47,560
which is how it sort of unfolds.

834
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:49,980
But often, you know, children will die.

835
00:57:50,020 --> 00:57:51,440
Young people will die.

836
00:57:51,850 --> 00:57:52,330
And.

837
00:57:52,950 --> 00:57:55,510
So we can't assume that
there is a natural order.

838
00:57:55,950 --> 00:58:01,500
But the more across death children
are, the better human beings

839
00:58:01,570 --> 00:58:03,140
and adults they will become.

840
00:58:03,470 --> 00:58:08,020
Because if they're treated with
honesty and respect, they will be

841
00:58:08,020 --> 00:58:10,680
able to process those situations.

842
00:58:11,260 --> 00:58:16,940
And so when their peers die as young
people, they will have a chance

843
00:58:17,380 --> 00:58:21,630
to deal with that well, rather
than It messed them up forever.

844
00:58:22,030 --> 00:58:28,200
So adults need to get over their own fears
and contractions in order to be generous

845
00:58:28,610 --> 00:58:31,900
and, um, educative to their children.

846
00:58:32,230 --> 00:58:38,490
And every loss, every death of an animal
is an opportunity to, for children

847
00:58:38,490 --> 00:58:42,720
to be able to learn about death in
a supported, loving environment.

848
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:46,090
Thank you so much for that advice,

849
00:58:46,090 --> 00:58:46,390
Catherine: Zenith.

850
00:58:47,055 --> 00:58:47,415
You are welcome.

851
00:58:50,645 --> 00:58:54,065
We hope you enjoyed today's
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852
00:58:54,395 --> 00:58:56,135
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853
00:58:56,875 --> 00:59:01,135
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