1
00:00:00,050 --> 00:00:04,220
Rebecca Lyons: So a doula says, well,
where's the 16 who's going to drive

2
00:00:04,220 --> 00:00:07,840
you to doctor's appointments and pick
up the kids and organize the meals

3
00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:09,509
and do the shopping and mow the lawns.

4
00:00:09,510 --> 00:00:13,120
And, and how are all those 16
people going to communicate?

5
00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:15,060
And who's going to attend
the doctor's appointments?

6
00:00:15,350 --> 00:00:17,540
Who's going to relay that information?
                        ... Read More
                    

                

1
00:00:00,050 --> 00:00:04,220
Rebecca Lyons: So a doula says, well,
where's the 16 who's going to drive

2
00:00:04,220 --> 00:00:07,840
you to doctor's appointments and pick
up the kids and organize the meals

3
00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:09,509
and do the shopping and mow the lawns.

4
00:00:09,510 --> 00:00:13,120
And, and how are all those 16
people going to communicate?

5
00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:15,060
And who's going to attend
the doctor's appointments?

6
00:00:15,350 --> 00:00:17,540
Who's going to relay that information?

7
00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,250
Cause you know, you try keeping
16 people on the same page.

8
00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:26,689
So, so a doula can look at all
of this coordination, logistics

9
00:00:26,689 --> 00:00:28,710
and planning stuff, as well as.

10
00:00:29,165 --> 00:00:30,655
doing the heart work.

11
00:00:31,185 --> 00:00:33,805
You know, do you want to
write letters to your kids?

12
00:00:35,225 --> 00:00:39,054
What's going to happen to
grandma's recipes or your great

13
00:00:39,054 --> 00:00:40,765
grandfather's tools in the shed?

14
00:00:42,315 --> 00:00:48,664
So the, it's such a rich and diverse
role and it really is why I say they're

15
00:00:48,664 --> 00:00:53,705
a blank slate because when they go into
a family or into a community or into

16
00:00:53,705 --> 00:00:58,434
a friend group, you know, not everyone
has the, the family structure, but

17
00:00:58,435 --> 00:01:00,595
when a doula walks into that space.

18
00:01:01,830 --> 00:01:06,590
There's so much they could do,
but it's about what do you need.

19
00:01:09,755 --> 00:01:12,735
Catherine Ashton: Welcome to
Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast

20
00:01:12,735 --> 00:01:16,835
encouraging open conversations about
dying and the death of a loved one.

21
00:01:17,405 --> 00:01:22,355
I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

22
00:01:22,355 --> 00:01:24,845
bring your stories of death back to life.

23
00:01:25,414 --> 00:01:29,545
Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

24
00:01:32,989 --> 00:01:36,209
Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations

25
00:01:36,269 --> 00:01:40,039
and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.

26
00:01:40,340 --> 00:01:44,859
We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging and extend

27
00:01:44,859 --> 00:01:48,329
that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First

28
00:01:48,329 --> 00:01:50,099
Nation peoples around the globe.

29
00:01:53,130 --> 00:01:57,720
Rebecca Lyons, mother of one, hails from
the Blue Mountains in New South Wales.

30
00:01:58,150 --> 00:02:01,539
She started her working career
in Sydney before making the

31
00:02:01,539 --> 00:02:03,190
move to Tasmania in late 2006.

32
00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,829
Over her career, she has worked
in various industries including

33
00:02:08,829 --> 00:02:11,380
finance, real estate and the law.

34
00:02:11,789 --> 00:02:16,519
But in 2011, she found her path
into the funeral industry and

35
00:02:16,519 --> 00:02:19,760
stayed there until mid 2017.

36
00:02:20,325 --> 00:02:24,415
She worked across many roles offered
in the contemporary funeral industry,

37
00:02:24,424 --> 00:02:30,385
including planning, administration,
mortuary, funeral arranging and directing.

38
00:02:31,430 --> 00:02:36,090
Retraining as an end of life doula and
becoming an independent funeral director,

39
00:02:36,500 --> 00:02:41,620
she has worked in home based death care
and family led funerals ever since.

40
00:02:42,780 --> 00:02:48,119
Bec has also been actively working to
advance the mission of You n' Taboo, which

41
00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:53,774
is the education and advocacy service
she co founded with her partner in 2016.

42
00:02:54,575 --> 00:02:58,165
Most recently, Bec was awarded a
Churchill Fellowship to undertake

43
00:02:58,174 --> 00:03:03,484
international research and report on
changes and disruptions in the end of

44
00:03:03,584 --> 00:03:09,894
life space, which saw her travel through
six countries exploring alternatives to

45
00:03:09,894 --> 00:03:12,535
contemporary ceremony and body disposal.

46
00:03:12,924 --> 00:03:19,144
In her spare time, she enjoys reading,
writing, photography, camping, and travel.

47
00:03:19,255 --> 00:03:22,784
But what makes her most contented
is time with her family.

48
00:03:24,024 --> 00:03:28,344
The subjects of death and dying,
natural burial, and the do it yourself

49
00:03:28,344 --> 00:03:30,674
approach to death care are her passion.

50
00:03:31,094 --> 00:03:35,015
And she loves being out in the
community, raising awareness, and

51
00:03:35,015 --> 00:03:37,614
promoting good, honest conversations.

52
00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,570
She is a dedicated advocate
for positive change.

53
00:03:42,510 --> 00:03:46,740
She also happens to be the president
of Australia's Natural Death

54
00:03:46,850 --> 00:03:52,320
Advocacy Network and the chair of
the Australian Home Funeral Alliance.

55
00:03:53,259 --> 00:03:54,389
Thank you for being a guest

56
00:03:54,389 --> 00:03:55,250
on the show, Bec.

57
00:03:56,230 --> 00:03:59,109
Rebecca Lyons: Thank you for enduring that
really long introduction.

58
00:04:02,459 --> 00:04:05,279
Catherine Ashton: Now, Bec, you
trained as an end of life doula.

59
00:04:05,420 --> 00:04:09,309
Can you please explain what
that is and the training that's

60
00:04:09,319 --> 00:04:10,029
involved?

61
00:04:11,470 --> 00:04:15,170
Rebecca Lyons: Yeah, so there's a handful of
people doing training in Australia.

62
00:04:15,339 --> 00:04:22,764
I have been lucky enough to train
with or be connected in some way to I

63
00:04:23,745 --> 00:04:28,315
did my first lot of training through
Preparing the Way, which are now the

64
00:04:29,225 --> 00:04:34,054
people who are delivering the RTO,
which is the, the actually world's first

65
00:04:34,064 --> 00:04:37,184
certificate for in end of life doula.

66
00:04:38,174 --> 00:04:42,344
So that's the world's first government
accredited sort of doula training.

67
00:04:43,985 --> 00:04:49,470
I've also done training through
Zen Virago out of Byron with

68
00:04:49,470 --> 00:04:50,650
the Death Walker training.

69
00:04:51,190 --> 00:04:53,630
I've done Denise Love's training.

70
00:04:54,050 --> 00:04:56,740
So they're the ones that
I, I have undertaken.

71
00:04:58,010 --> 00:05:01,710
But, you know, there's, there's another
couple of, of really good people who

72
00:05:01,710 --> 00:05:06,070
are also delivering Doula training and,
and End of Life Consultant training.

73
00:05:07,330 --> 00:05:11,950
At the moment, The training
is largely unregulated.

74
00:05:11,950 --> 00:05:13,250
It's private training.

75
00:05:13,270 --> 00:05:16,849
That's why the CERT IV is
a bit of a game changer.

76
00:05:17,830 --> 00:05:23,280
And it's, it's designed now, it's
a, what's come out of this CERT IV

77
00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:28,880
is the need for better structure
and organisation around Doula.

78
00:05:29,155 --> 00:05:33,414
People who are now looking at a
Cert IV are going, so where's your

79
00:05:33,465 --> 00:05:37,525
governing body and your professional
representation and all that sort of stuff.

80
00:05:37,525 --> 00:05:43,714
So there is this shift to, I guess,
professionalising doula and that's

81
00:05:43,724 --> 00:05:49,365
going to both increase the training
options, but also delineate between,

82
00:05:50,594 --> 00:05:53,775
I guess, what is accredited and
non accredited training as well.

83
00:05:55,365 --> 00:05:55,785
And

84
00:05:56,075 --> 00:05:59,594
Catherine Ashton: what is training,
you know, what is an end of

85
00:05:59,645 --> 00:06:00,395
life doula?

86
00:06:01,659 --> 00:06:09,200
Rebecca Lyons: An end of life doula is a non medical
asset, a non medical person who comes in

87
00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,510
at any point of an end of life journey.

88
00:06:13,510 --> 00:06:18,720
It could be when someone is still well and
has no diagnosis but wants to do planning.

89
00:06:19,510 --> 00:06:23,880
It could be there's been a terminal
or a life limiting diagnosis and they

90
00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,960
need to understand that and start
looking at what services are available

91
00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,300
and how to connect with supports.

92
00:06:31,300 --> 00:06:37,235
It could be that someone is dying and
family and community or the person that's

93
00:06:37,235 --> 00:06:44,895
dying actually need better support and,
and a person to help navigate that space.

94
00:06:45,604 --> 00:06:49,645
So a doula really comes
in as a blank slate.

95
00:06:50,235 --> 00:06:51,895
But with a lot of information.

96
00:06:51,955 --> 00:06:56,075
So they come in as a blank
slate going, What do you need?

97
00:06:56,125 --> 00:07:00,965
Tell me about your situation and let
me try and work out how I can best

98
00:07:00,975 --> 00:07:06,214
support you and what your needs are
and what your wishes are and how

99
00:07:06,215 --> 00:07:08,384
can we make that happen for you.

100
00:07:09,015 --> 00:07:14,315
And it's, it's an increasingly
important role because we know things

101
00:07:14,355 --> 00:07:18,675
like, you know, it's the, the figures
have been bandied around for ages

102
00:07:18,694 --> 00:07:22,515
now, we know that, you know, over 70
percent of people say they want to

103
00:07:22,515 --> 00:07:27,355
die at home and about 14 percent of
people across Australia achieve that.

104
00:07:28,719 --> 00:07:36,230
We know that, you know, the figures on
the projected death rates, so in, in

105
00:07:36,250 --> 00:07:44,449
2019, there was 169, 301 deaths recorded
in Australia, and that, if you look at

106
00:07:44,450 --> 00:07:49,190
the population prospectus through the
UN modelling and also the ABS data,

107
00:07:49,570 --> 00:07:53,520
that could be up to 430, 000 by 2056.

108
00:07:54,110 --> 00:07:59,919
And so that's an increase of, you
know, about 156%, I think it is.

109
00:07:59,999 --> 00:08:04,580
And, you know, if you go to any
hospice, hospital, palliative care

110
00:08:04,580 --> 00:08:07,630
service, you know, community nurses.

111
00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:13,630
Hospice at home, even a funeral director
and you go, your market share or your

112
00:08:13,630 --> 00:08:16,849
client base is going to increase by 156%.

113
00:08:18,380 --> 00:08:22,169
They're going to go, we don't
have the staff, like we can't

114
00:08:22,489 --> 00:08:24,040
cope with what we've got now.

115
00:08:24,730 --> 00:08:29,450
And so we need to start looking
at what are the alternatives?

116
00:08:29,450 --> 00:08:30,830
How can we support people?

117
00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,690
And then you, you match that with the
idea that, you know, 70 percent of

118
00:08:34,690 --> 00:08:35,900
people say they want to die at home.

119
00:08:37,164 --> 00:08:38,405
So why aren't they?

120
00:08:38,835 --> 00:08:43,755
Because there's not the right supports
and a doula comes into that to try

121
00:08:43,755 --> 00:08:47,495
and negotiate some of those supports
and sometimes it's not possible.

122
00:08:47,704 --> 00:08:52,465
Death at home is not always possible
But it's certainly more possible than

123
00:08:52,465 --> 00:08:54,464
what is currently being achieved.

124
00:08:54,935 --> 00:08:58,680
And so a doula looks at
All sorts of things around

125
00:08:58,680 --> 00:09:00,960
communication, logistics, planning.

126
00:09:02,020 --> 00:09:04,900
There's, there's stuff in the Western
Sydney University that says it takes

127
00:09:04,900 --> 00:09:09,230
a team of 16 people to care for
someone who's going to die at home.

128
00:09:10,579 --> 00:09:15,420
So a doula says, well, where's the 16
who's going to drive you to doctor's

129
00:09:15,420 --> 00:09:19,199
appointments and pick up the kids and
organize the meals and do the shopping

130
00:09:19,199 --> 00:09:23,679
and mow the lawns and, and how are all
those 16 people going to communicate

131
00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,099
and who's going to attend the doctor's
appointments, who's going to relay that

132
00:09:27,099 --> 00:09:31,800
information because, you know, you try
keeping 16 people on the same page.

133
00:09:32,629 --> 00:09:37,239
So, so a doula can look at all
of this coordination logistics

134
00:09:37,239 --> 00:09:39,259
and planning stuff as well as.

135
00:09:39,714 --> 00:09:41,994
doing the heart work, you know?

136
00:09:42,314 --> 00:09:44,314
Do you want to write letters to your kids?

137
00:09:45,775 --> 00:09:49,605
What's going to happen to
grandma's recipes or your great

138
00:09:49,605 --> 00:09:51,315
grandfather's tools in the shed?

139
00:09:52,855 --> 00:09:59,225
So the, it's such a rich and diverse
role and it really is why I say they're

140
00:09:59,225 --> 00:10:04,034
a blank slate because when they go
into a family or into a community or

141
00:10:04,034 --> 00:10:08,845
into a friend group, you know, not
everyone has the, the family structure.

142
00:10:08,845 --> 00:10:13,875
But when a doula walks into that
space, there's so much they could

143
00:10:13,944 --> 00:10:17,205
do, but it's about what do you need?

144
00:10:18,170 --> 00:10:20,470
What can we, what can we do for you?

145
00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,770
Catherine Ashton: That's,
that's quite a comprehensive

146
00:10:24,790 --> 00:10:25,300
role.

147
00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:27,220
Rebecca Lyons: Yes, it is.

148
00:10:28,190 --> 00:10:31,910
Catherine Ashton: And tell me,
you're also an independent funeral

149
00:10:31,910 --> 00:10:36,980
director and you offer family led
funerals where you live in Tasmania.

150
00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:42,820
Can you talk me through the services you
offer and how that perhaps differentiates

151
00:10:42,830 --> 00:10:44,980
from a conventional funeral service?

152
00:10:46,995 --> 00:10:48,585
Rebecca Lyons: I am a
little bit different.

153
00:10:48,705 --> 00:10:54,275
So, and, and a lot of that has
to do with my ways of operating

154
00:10:55,545 --> 00:10:59,104
and it's, you know, it's probably
not very good business sense.

155
00:10:59,135 --> 00:11:02,615
I have been told that I, I don't
have very good business sense.

156
00:11:02,624 --> 00:11:06,665
So, you know, you may still find
me packing shelves at Woolworths

157
00:11:06,665 --> 00:11:10,015
at some point, but, but the whole.

158
00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:14,990
The whole idea for me is it's got
to be about family and community.

159
00:11:14,990 --> 00:11:18,180
So I do come out of that industry
and, you know, that, that's,

160
00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:19,550
you know, the bio that you read.

161
00:11:19,550 --> 00:11:24,339
I spent quite a few years in the
funeral industry and I just wanted

162
00:11:24,339 --> 00:11:26,310
to have something that was different.

163
00:11:27,139 --> 00:11:31,480
And so I've been very mindful about how.

164
00:11:32,030 --> 00:11:37,340
I do what I do and how to make that
different and it's not that I want it

165
00:11:37,340 --> 00:11:41,059
to be different from a marketing point
of view because, you know, one, you'd

166
00:11:41,060 --> 00:11:47,030
need to have a marketing budget for
that and I don't, but, but I want, I

167
00:11:47,030 --> 00:11:50,259
want the heart of it to feel different
and I guess that's where the doula and

168
00:11:50,259 --> 00:11:57,110
funeral director kind of intersect it
a little bit because I have written

169
00:11:57,690 --> 00:12:00,915
15, 000 bills in the funeral industry.

170
00:12:00,975 --> 00:12:05,435
I have seen the look on people's
faces when they get bills they weren't

171
00:12:05,435 --> 00:12:10,635
expecting or when they see on the
estimate of costs what that's going

172
00:12:10,635 --> 00:12:14,334
to be and they don't know how to say
no, like we need to rethink this.

173
00:12:14,865 --> 00:12:21,330
I, I wanted to have a service
where people were not necessarily

174
00:12:21,340 --> 00:12:23,460
just making financial choices.

175
00:12:23,470 --> 00:12:26,310
They were making choices that felt good.

176
00:12:26,540 --> 00:12:31,919
I think we're doing people out of ceremony
with, with, you know, these concepts.

177
00:12:31,919 --> 00:12:34,130
So, you know, funeral poverty is a thing.

178
00:12:34,740 --> 00:12:36,770
There's a, you know,
2017, there was a report.

179
00:12:37,750 --> 00:12:40,550
Written from, you know, the Business
School of Business in Sydney Uni,

180
00:12:41,010 --> 00:12:42,400
you know, funeral poverty is a thing.

181
00:12:42,410 --> 00:12:47,339
The cost of funerals is going up and
people are opting for having no ceremony.

182
00:12:48,190 --> 00:12:51,080
And that's, that's, you know,
becoming a financial choice.

183
00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:56,200
And so I wanted to be able to say,
let's rethink what a funeral is.

184
00:12:57,369 --> 00:13:00,609
Let's re imagine what that could be.

185
00:13:00,639 --> 00:13:02,540
And that was, that was
the point of the TED talk.

186
00:13:02,580 --> 00:13:05,600
It was the point of like
the work that I'm doing.

187
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,585
It's like, What if you just
paid for a direct committal

188
00:13:09,755 --> 00:13:11,735
with no service or ceremony?

189
00:13:12,095 --> 00:13:17,555
So I, I do the, cause I can do a full
funeral and I do do full, lovely,

190
00:13:17,555 --> 00:13:22,115
beautiful funerals for people, but you
also don't need a funeral director.

191
00:13:22,745 --> 00:13:26,015
Like a funeral director is not
necessarily even a legal requirement

192
00:13:26,015 --> 00:13:28,574
for most things in most places.

193
00:13:29,114 --> 00:13:35,895
So what if, you know, you, you did just
pay for the bare necessity, but then let's

194
00:13:35,895 --> 00:13:37,434
talk about what your funeral could be.

195
00:13:38,485 --> 00:13:42,355
Is it campfire in the
backyard sharing stories?

196
00:13:42,844 --> 00:13:48,694
Is it a high tea at your grandmother's
favourite, you know, fancy cafe?

197
00:13:49,074 --> 00:13:53,004
Is it, you know, your, your parent
was an avid bushwalker so you're

198
00:13:53,035 --> 00:13:56,394
going to get all the friends together
and go for a bushwalk and everyone

199
00:13:56,525 --> 00:13:58,324
brings a quiche and has a picnic?

200
00:13:59,145 --> 00:14:01,665
Like, a funeral could
be all of those things.

201
00:14:01,665 --> 00:14:06,214
A funeral could be gathering people,
making sure, you know, on the afternoon

202
00:14:06,315 --> 00:14:10,165
that someone dies, making sure that
dad's got his boots on because he was

203
00:14:10,165 --> 00:14:16,525
never seen without them, and spending
that time with him before your funeral

204
00:14:16,535 --> 00:14:18,775
director comes and takes them away.

205
00:14:18,785 --> 00:14:26,564
Like, we, if we start to reimagine what
a funeral could be, then suddenly People

206
00:14:26,564 --> 00:14:32,274
can have the heart things that will
support the grief and bereavement, but not

207
00:14:32,305 --> 00:14:34,904
necessarily the bills that go with them.

208
00:14:35,595 --> 00:14:39,714
And, and so that's, I, so I run
a very different business model.

209
00:14:40,034 --> 00:14:45,534
I tend not to mark things up, so I
charge for my time and my costs, my

210
00:14:45,534 --> 00:14:52,780
equipment, but I don't put Like if,
if, for example, if a family wants

211
00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:58,910
300 worth of flowers, I will order 300
worth of flowers and charge 300 for the

212
00:14:58,910 --> 00:15:00,329
flowers because that's what I've paid.

213
00:15:00,479 --> 00:15:04,399
So I don't add markups to
things in that respect.

214
00:15:05,390 --> 00:15:12,099
And, and I try to, with particularly
home funerals, so a lot of what

215
00:15:12,099 --> 00:15:16,785
I encourage is Would you like
to dress your person yourself?

216
00:15:16,805 --> 00:15:18,365
Would you like to have them at home?

217
00:15:18,365 --> 00:15:19,825
They don't need to come with me.

218
00:15:20,105 --> 00:15:21,194
We can keep them at home.

219
00:15:21,244 --> 00:15:22,464
You can be the carer.

220
00:15:22,464 --> 00:15:23,734
This is your person.

221
00:15:24,184 --> 00:15:26,595
And you know, what might that look like?

222
00:15:26,595 --> 00:15:30,115
And at the end of it, this is the
compassionate community's point of it.

223
00:15:30,115 --> 00:15:36,854
Because at the end of that, the family and
the community, they have these new skills

224
00:15:36,854 --> 00:15:40,885
and these new knowledge and they might
not need a funeral director over again.

225
00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:47,420
They might invite me back because they
want me there next time, but they're

226
00:15:47,420 --> 00:15:49,400
not going to necessarily need me.

227
00:15:50,090 --> 00:15:52,050
That's what I mean about not a
very good business, it's like,

228
00:15:52,050 --> 00:15:53,469
it's not a great business model.

229
00:15:54,789 --> 00:15:59,450
But you know, this is, this is the
point, it's people doing for people.

230
00:16:00,909 --> 00:16:04,439
Catherine Ashton: And was there any
particular incident in your life

231
00:16:04,439 --> 00:16:10,269
that led you to, I suppose, develop
this very personal approach to

232
00:16:10,649 --> 00:16:11,419
funerals?

233
00:16:13,514 --> 00:16:16,474
Rebecca Lyons: Yeah, I was already on a bit
of a trajectory of looking at

234
00:16:16,474 --> 00:16:18,024
how things could be different.

235
00:16:18,084 --> 00:16:23,714
In about 2016, my partner and I had
had these conversations around, you

236
00:16:23,714 --> 00:16:26,674
know, it's amazing the amount of
people that walk through the door of

237
00:16:26,674 --> 00:16:28,554
a funeral home that don't have a clue.

238
00:16:29,525 --> 00:16:31,135
They do not have a clue.

239
00:16:31,364 --> 00:16:35,425
They go, I'm like in my 50s,
60s, no one's ever died before.

240
00:16:35,425 --> 00:16:36,224
What's possible?

241
00:16:36,224 --> 00:16:37,025
What could we do?

242
00:16:37,035 --> 00:16:38,255
What, what are the options?

243
00:16:38,284 --> 00:16:43,825
And so there was a real lack of death
literacy in that, in that space.

244
00:16:43,825 --> 00:16:48,824
And so we started out really wanting
to just raise death literacy,

245
00:16:49,284 --> 00:16:50,854
you know, in our local community.

246
00:16:51,685 --> 00:16:56,025
And then my great aunt
died, and that was 2018.

247
00:16:56,604 --> 00:16:59,354
And by that stage, I'd left.

248
00:17:00,035 --> 00:17:04,954
the industry, uh, to, to start pursuing
some of this other, other work.

249
00:17:04,974 --> 00:17:11,835
But when I was working as a doula, but
when, when she, when she died, the nursing

250
00:17:11,835 --> 00:17:13,795
home wouldn't allow me to take her body.

251
00:17:15,375 --> 00:17:22,360
And I, I had this knock down, drag out
argument with the, the CEO of the chain.

252
00:17:22,670 --> 00:17:27,319
Oh, like I went right up and,
and he was like, no, sorry,

253
00:17:27,550 --> 00:17:28,659
you're not a funeral director.

254
00:17:28,940 --> 00:17:30,699
I'm like, I've been a
funeral director for years.

255
00:17:30,699 --> 00:17:35,430
I know what I'm like, no, he wouldn't,
he wouldn't release the paperwork to me.

256
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:40,230
And you know, I had a chat with the
beautiful, you know, Libby Maloney and,

257
00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:41,990
and you know, my partner and all that.

258
00:17:41,990 --> 00:17:44,280
And I said, look, I'm going to have
to be a funeral director again.

259
00:17:45,030 --> 00:17:49,960
So we decided that, that would never
happen to anyone else ever again.

260
00:17:50,550 --> 00:17:53,230
And so, you know, I did get a home
because I still had friends in the

261
00:17:53,230 --> 00:17:57,469
industry who very, very generously
said, whatever you need, Beck.

262
00:17:57,659 --> 00:18:02,720
And they went and helped and officially
took possession of the paperwork and, and

263
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,840
took my great aunt straight to my house,
which, you know, was, was beautiful.

264
00:18:06,860 --> 00:18:10,470
But, but had I not known people in the
industry, that wouldn't have happened.

265
00:18:11,650 --> 00:18:12,010
Catherine Ashton: And so,

266
00:18:12,010 --> 00:18:12,520
 and who is, yeah.

267
00:18:12,610 --> 00:18:12,970
Who is

268
00:18:12,970 --> 00:18:13,990
Libby Maloney?

269
00:18:14,570 --> 00:18:18,770
Rebecca Lyons: So Libby runs a place in
Melbourne called Natural Grace.

270
00:18:20,820 --> 00:18:23,879
I've known Libby for many years and she
was actually one of the founding members

271
00:18:23,879 --> 00:18:25,710
of the Natural Death Advocacy Network.

272
00:18:27,010 --> 00:18:29,570
Catherine Ashton: And how did
she assist you in this incident?

273
00:18:30,510 --> 00:18:33,160
Rebecca Lyons: Just, we just
talked through, so there wasn't

274
00:18:33,180 --> 00:18:34,430
any practical assistance.

275
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,344
She's in Melbourne, I'm in Tasmania,
but it was just, It was the

276
00:18:38,344 --> 00:18:43,695
affirming conversation of, yep, so
the only, this is the problem, this

277
00:18:43,695 --> 00:18:45,215
is the problem with home funeral.

278
00:18:45,544 --> 00:18:49,514
It's that, you know, people think they own
the body when they don't, and one of the

279
00:18:49,514 --> 00:18:53,174
only ways around that is, is to advocate.

280
00:18:53,855 --> 00:18:58,925
And, and in my case, it was to, I then
went and jumped through all the hoops

281
00:18:58,925 --> 00:19:05,075
again to become an, a funeral director,
but an independent funeral director.

282
00:19:05,075 --> 00:19:09,635
And so that's, that's
how I am operating today.

283
00:19:09,785 --> 00:19:14,145
So, so as a doula and an independent
funeral director, now I can come in when

284
00:19:14,145 --> 00:19:15,865
there's a terminal or a life limiting.

285
00:19:16,315 --> 00:19:20,575
Diagnosis, say even when people are, well,
I come in, I, I work with them as a doula.

286
00:19:20,575 --> 00:19:24,835
I do planning for people and
then when people die, I stay on

287
00:19:24,835 --> 00:19:26,215
and be their funeral director.

288
00:19:27,864 --> 00:19:28,165
Catherine Ashton: Fantastic.

289
00:19:28,165 --> 00:19:28,675
And so

290
00:19:29,155 --> 00:19:33,324
that, um, period that
you were talking about was that 2017

291
00:19:33,330 --> 00:19:36,264
period when you established You n' Taboo

292
00:19:36,384 --> 00:19:37,280
with, with Ed.

293
00:19:37,985 --> 00:19:41,025
Rebecca Lyons: Yeah, so You and Taboo started in 2016.

294
00:19:41,025 --> 00:19:46,455
We actually launched it for
Dying to Know Day, 2016.

295
00:19:47,045 --> 00:19:52,725
2017 was when I left the big
industry and did my doula training.

296
00:19:53,580 --> 00:19:56,350
And then 2018, aunt died.

297
00:19:56,650 --> 00:19:57,060
Yeah.

298
00:19:58,540 --> 00:20:02,780
And it was, it was later that year,
so 2018, that I got the Churchill.

299
00:20:02,790 --> 00:20:07,919
So, yeah, so it was just kind of
this confluence of, of events that

300
00:20:07,919 --> 00:20:12,189
was all pointing me, one after the
other, in exactly the same direction.

301
00:20:13,645 --> 00:20:16,285
Catherine Ashton: And you
mentioned, um, the Australian Home

302
00:20:16,285 --> 00:20:18,315
Funeral Alliance briefly before.

303
00:20:18,665 --> 00:20:24,265
So you're the President of the
Alliance, um, and also the Chair of

304
00:20:24,265 --> 00:20:27,255
the Natural Death Advocacy Network.

305
00:20:27,345 --> 00:20:32,154
Can you give me a little bit of insight in
relation to both of these organisations?

306
00:20:32,495 --> 00:20:37,695
You know, what are they, what do they do,
what's their role and who's on the board?

307
00:20:38,345 --> 00:20:43,965
Rebecca Lyons: Yeah, so that's also
changed rather recently, but, but

308
00:20:43,965 --> 00:20:48,675
NDAN, so the Natural Death Advocacy
Network, they have been around, it'll

309
00:20:48,675 --> 00:20:50,735
be coming up to 10 years next year.

310
00:20:51,725 --> 00:20:55,695
And so that's, that's kind of
exciting, a 10 year anniversary.

311
00:20:56,135 --> 00:21:01,085
But NDAN was Put together initially by Dr.

312
00:21:01,125 --> 00:21:06,475
Pia Interlandi, she brought together
a group of people that came out of

313
00:21:06,475 --> 00:21:11,324
some conversations and some really at
the time forward thinking people who

314
00:21:11,364 --> 00:21:15,265
were willing to invest time and energy.

315
00:21:15,774 --> 00:21:22,344
into trying to build something different,
some, something around natural death,

316
00:21:22,635 --> 00:21:24,544
natural burial here in Australia.

317
00:21:24,544 --> 00:21:28,885
So Pia had been working as a funeral
director in a natural burial ground in

318
00:21:28,885 --> 00:21:34,104
the UK and she'd come back with all of
these sort of ideas and experiences.

319
00:21:34,344 --> 00:21:38,715
She's also, you know, she's done a, her
PhD is the reason we know about materials

320
00:21:39,205 --> 00:21:41,405
and how they decompose in natural burial.

321
00:21:41,765 --> 00:21:44,265
So she'd done this really
kind of formative work.

322
00:21:45,410 --> 00:21:51,200
And she gathered a bunch of people who,
who were really interested in supporting

323
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,170
this and, and so NDAN was full.

324
00:21:55,280 --> 00:22:00,800
Uh, I took over NDAN in 2020.

325
00:22:01,665 --> 00:22:04,800
2021, I think must be 2020.

326
00:22:05,340 --> 00:22:11,560
And that was, you know, Pia was
sort of ready to do something

327
00:22:11,620 --> 00:22:12,730
different with her life.

328
00:22:12,730 --> 00:22:16,300
And a few of the other board
members were ready to kind of.

329
00:22:17,014 --> 00:22:19,545
you know, go in other directions
and do some other work.

330
00:22:19,545 --> 00:22:24,245
And so I came into NDAN and,
and really tried to refocus it

331
00:22:24,285 --> 00:22:26,435
back to, to just natural burial.

332
00:22:26,435 --> 00:22:31,024
And so what NDAN have been doing in
the last few years have been info

333
00:22:31,155 --> 00:22:35,535
sessions every two months, looking at
different body disposal technologies.

334
00:22:35,905 --> 00:22:40,835
around the world and environmentally
friendly or alternate approaches.

335
00:22:41,405 --> 00:22:45,415
And we've now just, in the last
few weeks, launched natural burial

336
00:22:45,415 --> 00:22:47,984
accreditation across Australia.

337
00:22:47,984 --> 00:22:50,215
So that's a going to
be a work in progress.

338
00:22:50,215 --> 00:22:56,785
But The idea is that we've contacted
every cemetery saying they offer natural

339
00:22:56,785 --> 00:23:02,555
burial across Australia and invited them
to step into a process of membership

340
00:23:02,565 --> 00:23:07,955
with us, so that they can have our
tick of approval and so that there's a

341
00:23:08,014 --> 00:23:13,805
level of integrity with the consumers
and with the public as to the type of

342
00:23:13,805 --> 00:23:18,824
natural burials being offered by any
particular cemetery in the country.

343
00:23:19,195 --> 00:23:25,555
So that's, that's work ongoing, but, so
in, in the, in NDAN we've got myself as

344
00:23:25,555 --> 00:23:31,575
president, Alex Antunes as our treasurer,
Heidi Gregg is on the committee, Jess

345
00:23:31,575 --> 00:23:36,875
Xavier is the vice president, Joe
Lincoln, Fiona McQuaig, Dee Stokes,

346
00:23:36,895 --> 00:23:42,605
and Hayley West, and Rose Sexton, so
that's a really robust committee of

347
00:23:43,105 --> 00:23:49,685
Beautiful women running NDAN for the
Australian Home Funeral Alliance.

348
00:23:50,095 --> 00:23:54,154
We, that actually started
out of my Churchill.

349
00:23:55,445 --> 00:23:59,625
So at the, you know, the end of the
Churchill report, there's a bunch of, I

350
00:23:59,665 --> 00:24:04,485
think it's 20 something recommendations,
but I looked at them and went,

351
00:24:04,485 --> 00:24:06,175
what's the biggest bang for the buck?

352
00:24:06,465 --> 00:24:08,715
And there were a few things
happening in the doula space.

353
00:24:08,715 --> 00:24:13,244
And I'd, I'd had a chat to a couple
of people, Annetta and Pia and,

354
00:24:13,245 --> 00:24:17,570
and sort of said, you know, this
is, I think we've got to do this.

355
00:24:18,550 --> 00:24:21,220
And we were keen to get it off the ground.

356
00:24:21,220 --> 00:24:24,540
And so I reached out to a bunch
of people, I put everyone in a

357
00:24:24,540 --> 00:24:28,289
room and said, you know, this is
what came out of my Churchill.

358
00:24:28,550 --> 00:24:34,359
I think we could form a charity to promote
and educate home funeral so that we can

359
00:24:34,389 --> 00:24:36,849
stamp out the space for home funeral.

360
00:24:37,169 --> 00:24:40,769
We can start to set the narrative
about what a home funeral is.

361
00:24:41,229 --> 00:24:45,710
And we can we can sort of
build the definitions and the

362
00:24:45,710 --> 00:24:48,510
vision for that for Australia.

363
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,350
And so that's what we did and we,
we spent, well, hundreds of hours

364
00:24:53,380 --> 00:24:57,000
between us really storyboarding
and putting all that together.

365
00:24:57,050 --> 00:25:01,570
And last year we got charity
status through the ACNC.

366
00:25:01,580 --> 00:25:06,780
So we're now a registered
charity looking at educating.

367
00:25:07,010 --> 00:25:12,350
people and communities about home
funerals and community led approaches.

368
00:25:12,350 --> 00:25:17,060
So we've developed a workshop, or
we're in the process of finishing a

369
00:25:17,060 --> 00:25:20,950
workshop at the moment, which will be
hopefully a two day thing that we get

370
00:25:20,950 --> 00:25:25,149
funding to roll out, because we'd like
to offer it free to the community.

371
00:25:26,020 --> 00:25:30,180
And the idea behind it is it's
not training for a profession.

372
00:25:30,650 --> 00:25:35,770
What it is, is a way to bring community
together and skill a community so that

373
00:25:35,770 --> 00:25:40,199
when someone dies, there are people
in that community who know what the

374
00:25:40,199 --> 00:25:44,019
options are, how to respond, what's
possible, all that sort of stuff.

375
00:25:44,019 --> 00:25:46,400
So it's really community
capacity building.

376
00:25:48,055 --> 00:25:50,315
Catherine Ashton: And you
mentioned that previously about

377
00:25:50,325 --> 00:25:51,995
compassionate communities.

378
00:25:52,355 --> 00:25:56,294
Could you perhaps, if some people may
not be familiar with that phrase, is that

379
00:25:56,295 --> 00:25:58,825
something you can expand on, please, Bec?

380
00:25:59,854 --> 00:26:03,655
Rebecca Lyons: Yeah, so, funnily enough,
on our AFA committee, because I'll, I'll

381
00:26:03,724 --> 00:26:07,785
tell you who's on our committee, we've
got Kerry Noonan, Dr Kerry Noonan, Tracey

382
00:26:07,785 --> 00:26:14,060
Rusden, Ros Wright, Claire Turnham, Hayley
Halloran, Alex Antunes, Rachel Valentine,

383
00:26:14,060 --> 00:26:18,670
Kelly Beattie, and then we've got co ops
of Annie Whitlock, Shivani Patel, Dr.

384
00:26:18,670 --> 00:26:21,130
Pia Interlandi, Zenith
Farago, and Jo Fairley.

385
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:26,250
So we've got, again, a huge amount of
beautiful people stepping into this.

386
00:26:26,250 --> 00:26:26,850
But Dr.

387
00:26:26,850 --> 00:26:31,449
Kerry Noonan is one of, you know,
Australia's leading people on

388
00:26:31,489 --> 00:26:36,790
compassionate communities and death
literacy and all sorts of things.

389
00:26:36,810 --> 00:26:42,100
But, but compassionate communities is
a model of people looking after people.

390
00:26:42,470 --> 00:26:46,519
So it was started by a guy called Dr.

391
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,750
Alan Kelleher, who was a Melbourne
based doctor who went to the UK.

392
00:26:51,870 --> 00:26:56,079
And he had this idea of, you
know, basically mobilizing

393
00:26:56,139 --> 00:26:57,830
communities to care for people.

394
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:04,030
and building compassion again into
the fabric of how you do what you do.

395
00:27:04,940 --> 00:27:07,629
And so there's a whole, a
whole thing that happened in a

396
00:27:07,659 --> 00:27:09,369
place called Froome in the UK.

397
00:27:09,639 --> 00:27:10,540
Julian Abel, Dr.

398
00:27:10,540 --> 00:27:15,459
Julian Abel and Helen Kingston sort
of had, you know, these, these ideas

399
00:27:15,459 --> 00:27:18,049
and Helen was sort of starting to
build things in Froome and Julian

400
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,889
said, well, let's look at how
compassionate communities works.

401
00:27:21,889 --> 00:27:25,179
And, and that, and it's
been so successful there.

402
00:27:25,179 --> 00:27:29,230
There's been, you know, you know,
millions of pounds worth of savings

403
00:27:29,490 --> 00:27:31,450
in emergency hospital presentations.

404
00:27:31,450 --> 00:27:34,870
Like they've been able to put a dollar
figure on it now and it's been so

405
00:27:34,870 --> 00:27:40,279
successful with their signposting to
other services that people, they're

406
00:27:40,340 --> 00:27:44,460
getting like long term funding now
to run this program which is, which

407
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,570
is phenomenal and, and it's, it's
started to be tested and rolled out in

408
00:27:48,570 --> 00:27:50,510
different places around Australia too.

409
00:27:51,015 --> 00:27:54,335
But the idea behind Compassionate
Communities really is, it's

410
00:27:54,335 --> 00:27:55,615
people looking after people.

411
00:27:55,615 --> 00:27:59,385
It's training your local butcher and your
newsagent and your hairdresser and your

412
00:27:59,385 --> 00:28:04,274
taxi driver and your police to, to, you
know, identify what loneliness looks like.

413
00:28:04,274 --> 00:28:08,255
It's very light, easy training,
but if they notice something

414
00:28:08,294 --> 00:28:11,595
with someone, they can ring a
community connector and go, Mrs.

415
00:28:11,595 --> 00:28:15,035
Smith didn't come for her packet
of sausages or whatever it is.

416
00:28:15,035 --> 00:28:17,934
And so, you know, the health
connector can reach out to Mrs.

417
00:28:17,935 --> 00:28:18,315
Smith and go.

418
00:28:19,015 --> 00:28:19,765
How you doing?

419
00:28:19,775 --> 00:28:20,575
Are you okay?

420
00:28:20,575 --> 00:28:21,985
Is something changed with you?

421
00:28:22,005 --> 00:28:23,185
Can I help you at all?

422
00:28:23,185 --> 00:28:26,365
And, and she might say, oh,
well, I'm not seeing very well.

423
00:28:26,365 --> 00:28:28,115
It's this macular degeneration.

424
00:28:28,115 --> 00:28:31,255
And so the connector can go,
we've actually got a club.

425
00:28:31,255 --> 00:28:34,284
They meet every second
Wednesday, you know, for everyone

426
00:28:34,284 --> 00:28:35,694
with macular degeneration.

427
00:28:35,694 --> 00:28:37,455
So how about you come along?

428
00:28:37,875 --> 00:28:43,044
And meet some other people, and we'll
organise transport for you and so

429
00:28:43,044 --> 00:28:45,284
it's a way of just connecting people.

430
00:28:45,285 --> 00:28:51,034
And yeah, and we're finding that that
keeps people out of medical services.

431
00:28:52,574 --> 00:28:53,654
Catherine Ashton: It sounds like it's based

432
00:28:53,654 --> 00:28:57,995
on a very old fashioned
way of just knowing your neighbour.

433
00:28:58,804 --> 00:29:00,914
Rebecca Lyons: Yeah, it's
kind of simple, right?

434
00:29:01,629 --> 00:29:02,210
Catherine Ashton: Yeah.

435
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,680
And, and you've mentioned
the Churchill Fellowship.

436
00:29:05,710 --> 00:29:10,300
So in 2019, you traveled to six countries.

437
00:29:10,970 --> 00:29:12,160
Tell me about that trip.

438
00:29:12,190 --> 00:29:14,180
What did, what did it involve?

439
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:14,669
What were you

440
00:29:14,669 --> 00:29:15,270
looking at?

441
00:29:17,069 --> 00:29:17,539
Rebecca Lyons: Yeah.

442
00:29:17,550 --> 00:29:24,000
So I, my brief, what I pitched
to the trust was to look

443
00:29:24,140 --> 00:29:26,510
at alternative approaches.

444
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,530
So it was called the Human Relationship
to Death and Ceremony Through

445
00:29:31,530 --> 00:29:33,740
Alternate Approaches and Technologies.

446
00:29:35,345 --> 00:29:37,945
And so it was in two parts.

447
00:29:37,975 --> 00:29:43,020
It was about body disposal and different
you know, the very kind of structural

448
00:29:43,030 --> 00:29:48,810
mechanical, how are we doing dead
bodies and what happens to them?

449
00:29:49,630 --> 00:29:54,460
But it was also, how are we doing
ceremony and supporting people and

450
00:29:54,470 --> 00:29:56,740
bereavement and compassionate communities?

451
00:29:56,749 --> 00:30:00,339
Like, how are we, how does
that look on the ground?

452
00:30:00,350 --> 00:30:05,915
And so, I did visit several places
doing different body disposals, but

453
00:30:05,915 --> 00:30:09,255
I also, you know, I went to Froome.

454
00:30:09,295 --> 00:30:12,844
I met the people who were doing
Compassionate Communities, and I met

455
00:30:12,905 --> 00:30:18,455
other Compassionate Communities in other
places, and I met funeral directors who

456
00:30:18,455 --> 00:30:23,415
were doing things a little bit like me,
and, uh, different, different approaches.

457
00:30:23,415 --> 00:30:26,315
People who were doing home funerals,
I met a lot of end of life doulas,

458
00:30:26,345 --> 00:30:31,190
and, uh, you know, it was just this
really kind of rich, broad, you

459
00:30:31,190 --> 00:30:34,860
know, the part of my, part of my
fellowship looked at death disruptions.

460
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:40,669
So people who were doing things to
disrupt the industry, you know, and,

461
00:30:41,170 --> 00:30:46,780
and either cause people to think
or talk or, you know, question.

462
00:30:47,210 --> 00:30:50,970
So there's, there was a lot of,
it was a really broad project.

463
00:30:50,980 --> 00:30:56,300
It was, I did over 53 interviews
in the end and traveled to 21

464
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:59,160
flights, three train journeys.

465
00:30:59,190 --> 00:31:00,660
Like, it was massive.

466
00:31:00,990 --> 00:31:03,350
And that was in, that was in 10 weeks.

467
00:31:04,370 --> 00:31:04,719
Catherine Ashton: And what

468
00:31:04,719 --> 00:31:08,809
was something that you
saw overseas that you thought, you know,

469
00:31:08,900 --> 00:31:10,069
I think that that should come back to

470
00:31:10,070 --> 00:31:10,720
Australia?

471
00:31:12,140 --> 00:31:17,160
Rebecca Lyons: Alkaline hydrolysis is probably the
easiest to get and, and that's, that's

472
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:22,629
not far off being here, you know,
in a really set professional way.

473
00:31:23,350 --> 00:31:24,450
Catherine Ashton: And could you explain what

474
00:31:24,510 --> 00:31:24,920
that is,

475
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:25,450
please?

476
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,960
Rebecca Lyons: Alkaline hydrolysis is a process
of body disposal which uses water,

477
00:31:32,900 --> 00:31:36,230
so the body goes into a machine.

478
00:31:36,779 --> 00:31:40,619
That machine can be
pressurised or unpressurised.

479
00:31:41,100 --> 00:31:46,390
The mixture is approximately 95
percent water and 5 percent alkaline.

480
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:51,680
In a, in a pressurised machine it
will go up to about 150 degrees,

481
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,710
in non pressurised obviously
it's atmospheric temperature, so.

482
00:31:56,300 --> 00:32:01,010
A hundred degrees or whatever that
is, but it's the movement of that

483
00:32:01,020 --> 00:32:07,260
water with the alkaline in it that
basically dissolves every protein based

484
00:32:07,270 --> 00:32:10,509
thing in the body to pre DNA level.

485
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,530
So there's no DNA left in the water.

486
00:32:12,530 --> 00:32:16,089
There's no, you know, there's, there's
a whole bunch of media beat up that

487
00:32:16,089 --> 00:32:17,820
goes, Oh, you know, an acid bath.

488
00:32:17,860 --> 00:32:21,140
And it's like, no, alkaline
is the opposite of acid.

489
00:32:21,755 --> 00:32:26,415
You know, I'm not a scientist, but I do
know that, but, but there's, it's the,

490
00:32:26,495 --> 00:32:29,115
it's, there's no atmospheric pollution.

491
00:32:29,570 --> 00:32:30,930
with alkaline hydrolysis.

492
00:32:31,420 --> 00:32:34,890
So it is a way of getting remains.

493
00:32:34,890 --> 00:32:39,190
So what comes out of that machine is
then this, you know, beautiful white

494
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:46,580
bone and then anything foreign like,
you know, artificial joint or something.

495
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,900
One of the, one of the things, one
of the perks of alkaline hydrolysis

496
00:32:51,930 --> 00:32:56,180
is that you can't put anything
in the body that's unnatural.

497
00:32:56,190 --> 00:33:01,720
So, you know, for example, if the person's
body's had an autopsy and all the organs

498
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:06,325
are in a viscera bag, In, in the cavity,
you have to empty, you have to come out

499
00:33:06,325 --> 00:33:11,765
of that bag, the plastic can't go into
the machine, you can't pack someone's nose

500
00:33:11,785 --> 00:33:16,155
or throat with cotton because the cotton
will have, there, there are actually,

501
00:33:16,314 --> 00:33:21,045
I met funeral directors in America who
are packing people and then unpacking

502
00:33:21,054 --> 00:33:25,315
them, which is, I think, a whole bunch of
messy that you don't need, there's, you

503
00:33:25,315 --> 00:33:29,305
know, you wouldn't stitch your mouth, you
wouldn't put plastic eye caps in, so the

504
00:33:29,305 --> 00:33:31,965
body gets to be very naturally treated.

505
00:33:32,580 --> 00:33:34,770
For this process.

506
00:33:35,310 --> 00:33:37,800
And, and of course you
don't need a coffin.

507
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,250
There's no coffin that goes
into that machine either.

508
00:33:41,310 --> 00:33:43,980
Uh, the person is either shrouded in silk.

509
00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:45,990
Some places will use like a silk bag.

510
00:33:46,290 --> 00:33:51,690
'cause silk is a protein based fiber,
so you can only use protein based fibers

511
00:33:51,695 --> 00:33:55,080
because they will be dealt with the same
way as the protein base in our bodies.

512
00:33:56,490 --> 00:33:57,690
Catherine Ashton: Is this what some people

513
00:33:57,690 --> 00:33:59,160
refer to as as water

514
00:33:59,160 --> 00:33:59,760
cremation?

515
00:34:00,585 --> 00:34:04,555
Rebecca Lyons:  It's got a lot of names, and I
think we need to, we need to be

516
00:34:04,555 --> 00:34:06,555
careful how we talk about it.

517
00:34:07,035 --> 00:34:11,084
So, there are some places that call it
border cremation, some places call it

518
00:34:11,095 --> 00:34:15,335
acclimation, some places call it, and
there are different versions of it.

519
00:34:15,345 --> 00:34:22,374
So, what I'm talking about is the
very officially, sort of, officially

520
00:34:22,374 --> 00:34:28,870
sanctioned, Uh, all government water
service approved alkaline hydrolysis,

521
00:34:29,340 --> 00:34:34,489
you know, there are, there are other,
other offerings where the water is not

522
00:34:34,490 --> 00:34:39,020
necessarily allowed back into the water
cycle because there's no approvals.

523
00:34:39,389 --> 00:34:42,489
And you know, so that, that means that
the water is having to be dealt with

524
00:34:42,490 --> 00:34:46,250
in a very different way and it's not
necessarily environmentally friendly.

525
00:34:47,310 --> 00:34:53,340
So, what we're talking about is, is
totally approved and, and government

526
00:34:53,490 --> 00:35:00,320
stamped kind of process that then allows
the water to go back into the water cycle.

527
00:35:01,535 --> 00:35:07,255
at the correct sort of pH, and
then the bones become the remains.

528
00:35:07,275 --> 00:35:11,295
They, they would go through, I guess,
a grinding process, the same as

529
00:35:11,295 --> 00:35:16,745
what happens at a flame cremation,
and becomes the ashes that people

530
00:35:16,795 --> 00:35:20,695
know and are familiar with that
would then go back to the family.

531
00:35:20,715 --> 00:35:25,245
But it's got a lot of, it does
have a lot of names, but the,

532
00:35:25,395 --> 00:35:29,775
so, you know, we've, we've got to
separate what the process is called.

533
00:35:30,395 --> 00:35:32,245
from what the business offering is.

534
00:35:32,255 --> 00:35:37,195
So, you know, there's, there's
acclimation, there's resumation,

535
00:35:37,195 --> 00:35:40,135
there's border cremation, there's
there's all of these things.

536
00:35:41,625 --> 00:35:44,874
But, but the process, alkaline hydrolysis.

537
00:35:45,455 --> 00:35:46,464
Catherine Ashton: And whereabouts

538
00:35:46,495 --> 00:35:49,075
is in the world
where you've seen it, is that

539
00:35:49,234 --> 00:35:52,975
currently happening and to the
approved standards that you're talking

540
00:35:52,975 --> 00:35:53,295
about?

541
00:35:54,425 --> 00:35:57,565
Rebecca Lyons: America, I've seen it, I saw
it in two different places

542
00:35:57,705 --> 00:35:58,905
from two different companies.

543
00:35:59,780 --> 00:36:03,030
That, that are offering two different
things, but I saw, I've seen two

544
00:36:03,030 --> 00:36:09,499
versions of it, but, but I know
that one of those companies now has

545
00:36:09,499 --> 00:36:12,970
it, I believe, operational in the
Netherlands or it's about to be.

546
00:36:13,369 --> 00:36:17,579
The UK, I think the approvals
are, are there now as well.

547
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,200
So it's, it's starting to
happen around the world.

548
00:36:21,230 --> 00:36:21,690
Catherine Ashton:  Yeah.

549
00:36:22,660 --> 00:36:22,850
And

550
00:36:22,850 --> 00:36:25,700
how long, from what
you've seen, how long does the process

551
00:36:25,740 --> 00:36:26,120
take?

552
00:36:27,355 --> 00:36:30,545
Rebecca Lyons: Depends on whether the machine's
pressurised or unpressurised.

553
00:36:30,555 --> 00:36:38,594
So, unpressurised, I guess, anywhere
between, I would say, 8 to 12 hours.

554
00:36:39,275 --> 00:36:41,655
Pressurised, probably 4 to 6.

555
00:36:43,065 --> 00:36:43,355
Catherine Ashton: Okay,

556
00:36:43,385 --> 00:36:44,095
fantastic.

557
00:36:44,884 --> 00:36:47,165
So, that's something that's overseas.

558
00:36:47,870 --> 00:36:52,870
Coming back to Australia, what are
the laws around having a funeral and

559
00:36:52,870 --> 00:36:55,830
in relation to disposing of a body in

560
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:56,550
Australia?

561
00:36:57,420 --> 00:37:00,409
Rebecca Lyons: There's actually not a lot that
you have to do when someone dies.

562
00:37:00,420 --> 00:37:04,869
You have to register a death, you have
to look after the body in accordance

563
00:37:04,909 --> 00:37:08,750
with the state legislation, and you
have to organise a body disposal.

564
00:37:10,930 --> 00:37:14,260
So, there's different, different
states have different time

565
00:37:14,260 --> 00:37:15,790
limits on all of that stuff.

566
00:37:17,580 --> 00:37:19,730
You know, there's, there's probably less.

567
00:37:20,830 --> 00:37:23,170
legal stuff than people think.

568
00:37:23,630 --> 00:37:26,330
So can you keep a body
of a person at home?

569
00:37:26,350 --> 00:37:26,780
Yes.

570
00:37:27,345 --> 00:37:32,785
For days, sure, but you need to maintain
in most places a body temperature

571
00:37:33,005 --> 00:37:34,885
of, say, five degrees or less.

572
00:37:35,325 --> 00:37:36,425
Are there ways to do that?

573
00:37:36,475 --> 00:37:39,064
Absolutely, multiple ways of doing that.

574
00:37:39,384 --> 00:37:45,224
So, so there's, you know, there's not,
you don't, you don't have to call a

575
00:37:45,224 --> 00:37:47,195
funeral director as soon as someone dies.

576
00:37:48,085 --> 00:37:52,625
You can, you can go and, as Zen,
Zenith Virago says, you know, don't

577
00:37:52,625 --> 00:37:54,175
pick up the phone, pick up the kettle.

578
00:37:55,805 --> 00:38:00,945
Go and, go and have a cup of tea
and just Sit with yourself and that

579
00:38:00,945 --> 00:38:05,655
person for a little while because
you'll never get that time back.

580
00:38:07,695 --> 00:38:10,365
So, you know, there's, there's a lot that.

581
00:38:13,020 --> 00:38:15,580
There's laws in different
states around transport.

582
00:38:16,580 --> 00:38:20,340
In some places, you can transport
your person, but it's got

583
00:38:20,340 --> 00:38:22,080
to be done in a certain way.

584
00:38:22,090 --> 00:38:26,059
Mostly, mostly it's around not
being what they call injurious to

585
00:38:26,060 --> 00:38:30,960
public health, and that means you
just don't see the body, right?

586
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,745
So, Use a coffin or use a, you know,
have, if you're going to have a shrouded

587
00:38:35,775 --> 00:38:41,664
body on a shroud carrier, use the back
of a ute that's got a canopy on it.

588
00:38:42,125 --> 00:38:45,555
Make sure that, you know, things
are strapped down so that there's

589
00:38:46,505 --> 00:38:48,745
nothing, no awkward movement.

590
00:38:48,955 --> 00:38:52,805
If you have to slam the brakes
on, you know, you have to be

591
00:38:52,815 --> 00:38:54,325
sensible about this stuff.

592
00:38:54,355 --> 00:38:57,485
But you know, some, and then
you've got to look at policies.

593
00:38:57,485 --> 00:39:01,414
So some policies will say, oh, it
has to be a funeral director that

594
00:39:01,414 --> 00:39:05,134
brings the body to the, to the
cemetery or something like that.

595
00:39:05,145 --> 00:39:08,095
So, but it's, it's kind of
hard to go, what are the laws?

596
00:39:08,135 --> 00:39:10,275
Because they're different in every state.

597
00:39:11,095 --> 00:39:15,785
The Australian Home Funeral Alliance
website has on most, on all states,

598
00:39:16,125 --> 00:39:19,335
we're, we're still missing a couple
of territories at the moment, but

599
00:39:19,645 --> 00:39:24,614
all of the state based law and how
to have a home funeral is all, is

600
00:39:24,625 --> 00:39:26,755
state by state written on our website.

601
00:39:27,964 --> 00:39:28,335
Catherine Ashton: Okay, so

602
00:39:28,745 --> 00:39:30,864
if someone was
interested in having a home funeral,

603
00:39:31,204 --> 00:39:34,715
that's where they could go to
actually find out more information?

604
00:39:35,195 --> 00:39:35,865
Rebecca Lyons: 100%.

605
00:39:37,025 --> 00:39:39,314
Catherine Ashton: And could they even ask their local

606
00:39:39,314 --> 00:39:40,214
funeral director?

607
00:39:40,735 --> 00:39:41,585
Rebecca Lyons: Yep, they can.

608
00:39:41,905 --> 00:39:45,705
And, and it's, I would suggest
doing the reading first.

609
00:39:47,115 --> 00:39:49,755
So, which I know is a
bit arduous for people.

610
00:39:50,285 --> 00:39:56,084
But if you know what's possible, that can
help inform the conversations you're going

611
00:39:56,084 --> 00:39:57,864
to have with your local funeral directors.

612
00:39:57,894 --> 00:40:01,305
Because the reality is not
everyone wants to do everything

613
00:40:01,395 --> 00:40:02,945
themselves, and that's okay.

614
00:40:03,605 --> 00:40:08,075
But the more informed people are,
the better they can advocate for

615
00:40:08,075 --> 00:40:10,155
themselves in what they want.

616
00:40:10,675 --> 00:40:15,005
And Knowing what's possible
helps them do that.

617
00:40:16,595 --> 00:40:17,165
Catherine Ashton: So you

618
00:40:17,165 --> 00:40:19,405
don't
have to transport the body.

619
00:40:19,745 --> 00:40:23,925
You could, you could do certain
parts at home and have someone else

620
00:40:23,945 --> 00:40:24,955
take care of it for you?

621
00:40:25,385 --> 00:40:29,815
Rebecca Lyons: Absolutely, but it's about
going, Oh, I don't have to call

622
00:40:29,815 --> 00:40:31,075
a funeral director straight away.

623
00:40:31,075 --> 00:40:36,164
So if my person dies at three o'clock
in the afternoon, they can hang

624
00:40:36,164 --> 00:40:40,375
out with me for the day and I can
go and find, you know, what I want

625
00:40:40,395 --> 00:40:42,115
to wrap them in or dress them in.

626
00:40:42,115 --> 00:40:47,200
And I can, get my mate to come around
tomorrow morning and help me do that

627
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:48,850
before the funeral directors come.

628
00:40:49,180 --> 00:40:52,319
Absolutely, they don't have to
be gone as soon as they die.

629
00:40:53,150 --> 00:40:57,429
Or, you know, if someone's in a, in a
hospital or in an institution, it's,

630
00:40:57,530 --> 00:41:02,879
they, they might go, well, we don't want
them to come to our house, but we also

631
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:04,440
don't want them to go straight away.

632
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,450
So what does that look like?

633
00:41:06,450 --> 00:41:08,570
Well, can I just have the evening here?

634
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:10,350
Yeah, absolutely.

635
00:41:10,610 --> 00:41:14,160
Or, I do want them at home,
but I don't want to put them in

636
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:15,570
the back of the station wagon.

637
00:41:15,580 --> 00:41:20,750
So, can I get my local funeral director
just to pick them straight up from where

638
00:41:20,750 --> 00:41:27,350
they've died, you know, the whatever
nursing home, and bring them to my house?

639
00:41:27,649 --> 00:41:31,930
And also, does your local funeral
director have a cooling plate or some

640
00:41:31,940 --> 00:41:36,180
techni ice or a massage table, something
that we can use to lay them out?

641
00:41:36,625 --> 00:41:37,345
at home.

642
00:41:38,415 --> 00:41:43,055
So, so, you know, if you know what's
possible, you can direct and you'll know

643
00:41:43,055 --> 00:41:49,434
what questions to ask so that you land on
exactly what it is that's right for you.

644
00:41:51,915 --> 00:41:56,955
Catherine Ashton: And is this information
that they can, they can get off the NDAN

645
00:41:56,965 --> 00:42:01,865
website or the Home Funeral Alliance
website, those sort of contacts in their

646
00:42:01,865 --> 00:42:03,475
local area that they could reach out

647
00:42:03,475 --> 00:42:03,765
to?

648
00:42:04,615 --> 00:42:11,235
Rebecca Lyons: There are on the AHFA website, there
is a list of home funeral, home

649
00:42:11,365 --> 00:42:17,465
funeral friendly funeral directors,
that's a mouthful, but, but also

650
00:42:17,465 --> 00:42:24,590
don't just, like, don't just stick to
that list, like, the way The way we

651
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,420
get some of this stuff over the line
with people is by community asking.

652
00:42:30,030 --> 00:42:34,270
So, even if your local funeral director
isn't on that list, and let me tell

653
00:42:34,270 --> 00:42:38,439
you, it's not a big list at the
moment, but even if your local funeral

654
00:42:38,439 --> 00:42:43,330
director isn't on it, still bring them
and go, I know that this is possible.

655
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:49,230
Would you, would your business be
open to a conversation about that?

656
00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:51,720
Would you like to, would you engage?

657
00:42:52,110 --> 00:42:53,230
me in conversation.

658
00:42:53,230 --> 00:42:55,050
Could we talk about what
that might look like?

659
00:42:55,050 --> 00:42:56,330
This is what I want to do.

660
00:42:56,750 --> 00:42:59,940
Is this something you'd be
open to exploring, offering?

661
00:42:59,950 --> 00:43:01,790
Have you done this before?

662
00:43:02,330 --> 00:43:05,099
You know, have you heard of
the Home Funeral Alliance?

663
00:43:05,099 --> 00:43:09,129
If you want more information, could,
would you be willing to, to reach out

664
00:43:09,130 --> 00:43:10,799
to them and learn a little bit more?

665
00:43:11,169 --> 00:43:15,790
There's, you know, by people
asking, the, the industry responds.

666
00:43:17,235 --> 00:43:17,975
Catherine Ashton: And do you suggest

667
00:43:17,975 --> 00:43:21,405
if this is something
that someone is interested after

668
00:43:21,445 --> 00:43:27,715
hearing this interview, who, is it best
that they actually sort of undertake

669
00:43:27,725 --> 00:43:29,845
those questions now and that research

670
00:43:29,895 --> 00:43:30,175
now?

671
00:43:31,164 --> 00:43:36,244
Rebecca Lyons: Long before you need it, you,
you, always best served doing

672
00:43:36,244 --> 00:43:39,135
your planning before you need.

673
00:43:39,645 --> 00:43:44,865
the plans, because the planning
that you do when you're well and the

674
00:43:44,865 --> 00:43:48,395
planning that you do when you, you
know, someone might have died and it's

675
00:43:48,405 --> 00:43:52,555
prompted you to go, really don't have
my paperwork in order or whatever it

676
00:43:52,555 --> 00:43:56,624
is, or I'd really love to be buried
on private land, but how do I do it?

677
00:43:56,635 --> 00:43:57,904
What does that look like?

678
00:43:58,434 --> 00:44:05,735
So that, that kind of planning is a
much less It's stressful and a much more

679
00:44:05,735 --> 00:44:11,685
considered planning than the planning
of, oh no, my person's just been hit by

680
00:44:11,685 --> 00:44:16,525
a car and they died two hours ago and
now I'm left reeling and I don't know

681
00:44:16,525 --> 00:44:17,995
what to do and there's nothing in place.

682
00:44:18,855 --> 00:44:24,835
That planning, that kind of acute
setting, you know, emergency

683
00:44:26,065 --> 00:44:29,925
grief stricken planning is a
very different type of planning.

684
00:44:31,215 --> 00:44:32,185
Catherine Ashton: And sorry, you

685
00:44:32,185 --> 00:44:35,635
just mentioned
there, Bec, that, uh, you could

686
00:44:35,635 --> 00:44:39,115
actually be buried in your own land,

687
00:44:39,175 --> 00:44:39,845
was that right?

688
00:44:41,615 --> 00:44:43,715
So that, that's possible
in different states, is it?

689
00:44:44,535 --> 00:44:46,185
Rebecca Lyons: Absolutely, absolutely.

690
00:44:46,205 --> 00:44:49,045
Burial on private land is a
thing that people have been

691
00:44:49,095 --> 00:44:51,335
doing for a very long time.

692
00:44:51,815 --> 00:44:56,605
It's the environmental officer usually of
your local council, that's what you start.

693
00:44:57,105 --> 00:45:01,355
You go and you say, I want to be
buried on private land, and they will

694
00:45:01,355 --> 00:45:03,754
give you a shopping list of things.

695
00:45:04,510 --> 00:45:09,180
Of, you know, hoops to jump through and
all the rest of it, and then, you know, by

696
00:45:09,180 --> 00:45:13,129
the time you've done your investigations,
people send me those shopping lists every

697
00:45:13,129 --> 00:45:17,889
now and then, and, and I'll, so I'll do
some negotiation with local councils for

698
00:45:17,890 --> 00:45:23,460
people in, in my area, so most of my local
councils now, there's not even a question,

699
00:45:23,470 --> 00:45:29,090
they just They're well educated and,
and, and, you know, that's all it takes.

700
00:45:29,090 --> 00:45:31,960
It just takes a couple of
times to do the process.

701
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,970
You, you, there'll probably
be a site inspection.

702
00:45:34,970 --> 00:45:37,080
They'll want to know what
size land you've got.

703
00:45:37,290 --> 00:45:42,019
They'll have all of these, you know,
requirements, but once you've got

704
00:45:42,050 --> 00:45:46,749
that permission, as far as I like,
certainly where I am, but as far as

705
00:45:46,749 --> 00:45:50,670
I know, it doesn't go out of date, it
just, you know, change it, it might

706
00:45:50,670 --> 00:45:52,340
change if you sell the property.

707
00:45:53,375 --> 00:45:56,895
And I know I've got a client who's,
who's in the process of trying to put

708
00:45:56,895 --> 00:46:02,875
a caveat on the land so that if she has
to sell the property before and go into

709
00:46:02,875 --> 00:46:04,705
care, she's still allowed to be back.

710
00:46:05,375 --> 00:46:06,285
They're to be buried.

711
00:46:07,835 --> 00:46:10,685
So yeah, it's, it's, it's quite a thing.

712
00:46:10,695 --> 00:46:13,365
You know, there's, there's more
than one way to do something.

713
00:46:13,825 --> 00:46:17,325
You just got to think outside the
box a little bit, funnily enough.

714
00:46:18,665 --> 00:46:19,104
Catherine Ashton: Tell me, uh,

715
00:46:19,135 --> 00:46:22,665
you mentioned
earlier on about natural burial

716
00:46:22,715 --> 00:46:28,175
and the fact that there is now an
accreditation process through the

717
00:46:28,185 --> 00:46:30,015
Natural Death Advocacy Network.

718
00:46:30,675 --> 00:46:33,485
Can you tell me a little bit
about that and what is natural

719
00:46:33,485 --> 00:46:33,945
burial?

720
00:46:35,610 --> 00:46:40,550
Rebecca Lyons: So natural burial is burial in, well
the core part of it is that it's

721
00:46:40,550 --> 00:46:43,580
a burial in shallow depth grave.

722
00:46:44,030 --> 00:46:48,760
So it's a burial where You're in the,
what they call the aerobic layers

723
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,490
of the soil, and that's where you've
got all the nice little bugs and the

724
00:46:52,490 --> 00:46:58,910
bacteria and the movement of oxygen
and water through that soil, which

725
00:46:58,910 --> 00:47:01,240
all aids the decomposition process.

726
00:47:01,559 --> 00:47:05,459
So you're a single depth burial,
so only one body per plot.

727
00:47:06,270 --> 00:47:07,910
You're only digging about 1.

728
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:09,080
2 metres deep.

729
00:47:11,410 --> 00:47:15,700
You're looking at the conservation
of, of the land around it.

730
00:47:16,230 --> 00:47:19,950
You're looking at what goes into
that grave, so it's natural fibres.

731
00:47:20,575 --> 00:47:24,635
So the body can be wearing plant
or protein based materials,

732
00:47:24,665 --> 00:47:25,995
and that's, you know, Dr.

733
00:47:26,025 --> 00:47:30,705
Pia Interlandi's research about the
kinds of fibres that can go into natural

734
00:47:30,705 --> 00:47:36,814
burial, where, you know, you're not doing
the chemical preparations or any, you're

735
00:47:36,814 --> 00:47:41,315
not putting plastic eye caps in and all
of that stuff that happens in standard

736
00:47:41,315 --> 00:47:43,305
mortuary, so it's very natural care.

737
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,050
Catherine Ashton: Sorry, sorry,
but when you say chemicals, is

738
00:47:48,050 --> 00:47:50,190
that what the embalming process is?

739
00:47:50,220 --> 00:47:50,690
Is that a

740
00:47:50,990 --> 00:47:52,070
chemical process?

741
00:47:52,970 --> 00:47:57,400
Rebecca Lyons: Embalming is a chemical process, but
also just standard chemical washes

742
00:47:57,530 --> 00:47:59,190
often happen in mortuaries too.

743
00:47:59,780 --> 00:48:04,980
Just a, you know, all over kind of
wash of the person's body and, you

744
00:48:04,980 --> 00:48:06,680
know, there's all sorts of chemicals.

745
00:48:08,725 --> 00:48:12,615
Embalming is a bit of a double
edged sword in, in a lot of ways.

746
00:48:12,615 --> 00:48:16,765
We're certainly not encouraging
embalming and it's not great, you

747
00:48:16,765 --> 00:48:20,115
know, it's not, the amount of embalming
fluid that goes into the, into the

748
00:48:20,835 --> 00:48:24,865
earth every year in the Western world
is not, it's something ridiculous.

749
00:48:24,875 --> 00:48:28,145
The American figures are
like 19 million litres.

750
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:30,230
of embalming fluid here.

751
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:31,290
It's huge.

752
00:48:31,570 --> 00:48:33,720
We're nothing like that in Australia.

753
00:48:33,810 --> 00:48:40,209
But, but, you know, the, the, the
criticism of embalming fluid, the

754
00:48:40,209 --> 00:48:44,170
biggest criticism is, is the, the
substance, which is formaldehyde.

755
00:48:44,779 --> 00:48:49,340
And I'm not a scientist, but my
understanding is that, you know,

756
00:48:49,380 --> 00:48:51,250
there are elements of formaldehyde.

757
00:48:51,270 --> 00:48:54,890
found in the natural decomposition
process of the body anyway.

758
00:48:55,340 --> 00:48:59,300
So I don't know, and I don't think the
research has been done as to what the

759
00:48:59,310 --> 00:49:01,389
change in composition to the soil is.

760
00:49:02,850 --> 00:49:07,250
If you have an embalmed body as opposed to
an unembalmed body, so one of the biggest

761
00:49:07,260 --> 00:49:11,710
problems with embalming is actually what
happens to the embalmer in the mortuary.

762
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:16,240
Like, it's the exposure at that level
that's, you know, really terrible.

763
00:49:16,639 --> 00:49:22,690
Uh, but, but yeah, embalming
aside, you try and do everything

764
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,290
chemical free as much as you can.

765
00:49:25,740 --> 00:49:29,780
And that's, people see
that as gentler as well.

766
00:49:30,050 --> 00:49:34,849
So, so there's, and then you get into, you
know, you can put compost matter into the

767
00:49:34,850 --> 00:49:40,790
grave and you can put sticks and twigs and
things that will create, you know, oxygen

768
00:49:40,790 --> 00:49:43,099
corridors and, and all sorts of things.

769
00:49:43,309 --> 00:49:45,180
You can get, you can
get quite fancy with it.

770
00:49:45,180 --> 00:49:49,310
You can do flora and fauna surveys
of, of the area and look at, you

771
00:49:49,310 --> 00:49:50,470
know, where there's, there's.

772
00:49:50,565 --> 00:49:53,695
natural burial, conservation
burial places that are seeing

773
00:49:53,705 --> 00:49:55,475
the reintroduction of species.

774
00:49:55,895 --> 00:49:59,344
You know, so there's, there's all of this
sort of beautiful stuff that happens,

775
00:49:59,755 --> 00:50:04,684
but, but essentially that is natural
burial and you can do it on private land

776
00:50:05,035 --> 00:50:06,975
if you can get your council permission.

777
00:50:07,325 --> 00:50:11,015
We have a couple of natural
burial grounds in development.

778
00:50:11,570 --> 00:50:15,470
in Australia as standalone
sites, which is really exciting.

779
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:18,080
There's one in development
in New South Wales.

780
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,860
There's another couple, you
know, in other states as well.

781
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:28,310
And, and here down at Tassie, we've
just had a, a cemetery set aside, a

782
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:32,159
portion of land, which is going to
be for a natural burial area as well.

783
00:50:32,159 --> 00:50:36,400
So it's starting to take up, but
we are way behind because in the

784
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:41,270
UK, there's like 80 accredited
ones and well over a hundred.

785
00:50:41,625 --> 00:50:42,925
natural burial grounds.

786
00:50:43,905 --> 00:50:44,275
Catherine Ashton: And what,

787
00:50:44,555 --> 00:50:45,495
what do they look like?

788
00:50:45,995 --> 00:50:46,745
How do they?

789
00:50:47,315 --> 00:50:52,305
Are they different to what your
normal, traditional, I suppose,

790
00:50:52,305 --> 00:50:54,895
or, or conventional, uh, burial

791
00:50:54,895 --> 00:50:55,645
ground would be.

792
00:50:56,215 --> 00:50:56,455
Rebecca Lyons: Yeah.

793
00:50:56,460 --> 00:50:57,055
They are.

794
00:50:57,055 --> 00:51:00,295
So, and, and there's all
different ways of doing it.

795
00:51:00,295 --> 00:51:06,625
So you can do field farm or bush, and
they can be, there's, there's also the,

796
00:51:06,625 --> 00:51:10,825
the concept of conservation burial,
which is different again, but the,

797
00:51:10,915 --> 00:51:15,415
you, so you can have it so that you
are still g raising sheep, cutting

798
00:51:15,415 --> 00:51:19,225
hay like you, you, the agricultural
value of the land can continue.

799
00:51:19,785 --> 00:51:20,875
with natural burial.

800
00:51:22,065 --> 00:51:24,575
There are places that are still
doing those things, they've got fruit

801
00:51:24,575 --> 00:51:29,745
trees, bees, like, they're still,
you know, operating as part of farms

802
00:51:29,795 --> 00:51:32,714
even, wild bodies are being buried.

803
00:51:33,165 --> 00:51:37,414
But there's also bush style
ones where they're rewilding.

804
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:42,720
And they're planting as they go, as they
bury, there's other ones where they're

805
00:51:42,740 --> 00:51:47,589
actually, they've got, there's an amazing
place in the UK, uh, which I believe

806
00:51:47,589 --> 00:51:52,700
you're aware of, called Dalton, and they,
they are burying bodies in, you know, land

807
00:51:52,799 --> 00:51:58,435
that's been in his family for 700 years,
like it is this thick, foresty kind of,

808
00:51:58,735 --> 00:52:02,375
the tree canopy is just one great big hug.

809
00:52:02,695 --> 00:52:05,165
And, and they are burying bodies.

810
00:52:05,305 --> 00:52:08,985
And like, he's got to get it resurveyed
every year because he doesn't want

811
00:52:08,985 --> 00:52:10,695
to disturb the tree roots too much.

812
00:52:10,735 --> 00:52:14,224
And it's, so there's so many
different ways that you can do it.

813
00:52:16,555 --> 00:52:16,795
Catherine Ashton: And

814
00:52:16,795 --> 00:52:21,830
Bec, from your
personal experience, And what you've

815
00:52:21,830 --> 00:52:26,290
seen certainly as a funeral director
and being an end of life doula.

816
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:32,009
What do you suggest when people are
trying to work through administration

817
00:52:32,010 --> 00:52:33,400
after a loved one has died?

818
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:34,860
Like, where should they start?

819
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:40,070
We've talked a little bit about
planning beforehand, but if someone

820
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,899
has died, you know, what do they

821
00:52:42,899 --> 00:52:43,509
prioritise?

822
00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:53,420
Rebecca Lyons: At the point of death, you need to
prioritize what feels right, because

823
00:52:53,510 --> 00:52:57,689
that's a very, that, that's two
questions, I think, because what do

824
00:52:57,690 --> 00:53:02,370
you prioritize when someone's died
is different to what are you, how

825
00:53:02,370 --> 00:53:03,830
do you attack the administration?

826
00:53:06,409 --> 00:53:12,170
The administration comes and it kind of,
life will force you into dealing with

827
00:53:12,180 --> 00:53:17,749
that administration, particularly if you
need probate or, or anything like that.

828
00:53:18,310 --> 00:53:24,940
But the, the, the first few days after
someone dies, you have to really just

829
00:53:24,940 --> 00:53:27,820
sort of step into what feels right.

830
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,880
And sometimes, and that's one
of the beauties of home funeral

831
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:33,280
is you get the space to do that.

832
00:53:34,210 --> 00:53:39,060
You know, I tell this story about when,
when my grandma died and, you know,

833
00:53:39,060 --> 00:53:43,450
she was at home with us for five days
and on the fourth night, the night,

834
00:53:43,700 --> 00:53:48,209
the night, the fifth night actually,
the night before her ceremony, and

835
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:52,250
my mom at eight o'clock at night got
up from the dinner table and went.

836
00:53:52,990 --> 00:53:55,209
We didn't put face powder on her.

837
00:53:56,490 --> 00:53:59,680
And I was like, Ma, she does
not need her face powder.

838
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:02,460
And Mum was like, Oh, no, she does.

839
00:54:02,539 --> 00:54:04,310
Yes, yes, she does.

840
00:54:04,340 --> 00:54:09,400
And so here we are at 8 o'clock at night,
all standing around my grandma, making

841
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:13,019
sure she's got a lippy on and a face
powder and all of this sort of stuff.

842
00:54:13,659 --> 00:54:18,690
That's not stuff that happens in a
two hour viewing at a funeral home.

843
00:54:20,015 --> 00:54:25,715
But home funeral gives you the
space to respond to your grief

844
00:54:25,735 --> 00:54:28,465
and your grief gets to do what it
needs to do when it needs to do it.

845
00:54:30,565 --> 00:54:35,045
And so I think it's really important
that in whatever, in whatever

846
00:54:35,045 --> 00:54:39,564
structure, whatever situation
you've chosen, you give yourself the

847
00:54:39,565 --> 00:54:41,384
space to just do what feels right.

848
00:54:42,820 --> 00:54:49,520
In, in my dad's ceremony, we had this
plan, right, where, cause everyone

849
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,569
said to me, you can't, you have to
be the daughter at some, you need

850
00:54:52,569 --> 00:54:56,620
to stop being the funeral director
and start being the daughter.

851
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,999
And so I was like, well, look, I'll
open the ceremony and I'll sit down

852
00:54:59,999 --> 00:55:01,990
and someone else, my partner can.

853
00:55:02,430 --> 00:55:03,160
But he's a celebrant.

854
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:05,200
He can do the celebrancy.

855
00:55:06,090 --> 00:55:09,240
And we got to this part in the
ceremony and I went, you know, I

856
00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:10,780
love you, but you need to sit down.

857
00:55:11,820 --> 00:55:13,600
I, I need to do the talking.

858
00:55:15,980 --> 00:55:19,759
And you know, that's the stuff that will
never happen in, in a big funeral chapel.

859
00:55:19,780 --> 00:55:22,740
But, but it's what my grief
needed in that moment.

860
00:55:24,495 --> 00:55:30,245
And so, you just need to be able
to respond with what feels right.

861
00:55:30,295 --> 00:55:31,305
That's, that's the thing.

862
00:55:31,305 --> 00:55:34,905
And if that's going to be outsourcing
the things that are not important to

863
00:55:34,905 --> 00:55:39,294
you, like if you're doing home funeral,
you can't do everything yourself, right?

864
00:55:39,655 --> 00:55:42,494
Home funeral, there is
definitely more work to do.

865
00:55:43,065 --> 00:55:44,335
Do I think that's a good thing?

866
00:55:44,415 --> 00:55:48,655
Absolutely, because I wholeheartedly
believe that grief is an emotion

867
00:55:48,915 --> 00:55:49,975
that needs something to do.

868
00:55:51,995 --> 00:55:53,725
But you can't do everything yourself.

869
00:55:54,235 --> 00:56:00,175
So, in those first few days when someone
dies, it's like, what is the heart for me?

870
00:56:01,115 --> 00:56:02,875
And then farm everything else out.

871
00:56:06,045 --> 00:56:09,255
That's, yeah, that's what I think
you need to do in the first few days.

872
00:56:10,225 --> 00:56:11,615
Catherine Ashton: That's very good advice.

873
00:56:12,055 --> 00:56:15,434
And given
your experience, what have

874
00:56:15,434 --> 00:56:17,424
you done to prepare for your

875
00:56:17,424 --> 00:56:18,124
own death?

876
00:56:20,214 --> 00:56:23,215
Rebecca Lyons: Well, I've written the ceremony.

877
00:56:25,725 --> 00:56:29,245
Anyone who knows me that's listening
to this will go, of course she has.

878
00:56:32,310 --> 00:56:37,120
But I have put pen to paper, and literally
pen to paper, it's not on computer,

879
00:56:37,550 --> 00:56:43,999
um, to write out the ceremony and I've
thought about, I, like, I believe a

880
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,010
funeral should be an all day, I'd love
a funeral to be an all day affair.

881
00:56:47,785 --> 00:56:50,815
So I, I've done a bit
of planning around that.

882
00:56:50,945 --> 00:56:56,055
I have done some considerations
about my advanced care plan,

883
00:56:56,055 --> 00:56:58,954
which, you know, in Tasmania,
we're all having to redo them now.

884
00:56:58,955 --> 00:57:04,720
So I haven't redone mine yet, but You
know, I've got a power of attorney, I've

885
00:57:04,720 --> 00:57:09,630
got an enduring guardian, I've got a will,
I've got all of the, the paperwork in

886
00:57:09,630 --> 00:57:17,519
order, but yeah, I, and I think I spent
so, so long thinking about, part of my

887
00:57:17,519 --> 00:57:21,470
thing with, with not having redone my
advanced care directive yet, is because

888
00:57:21,470 --> 00:57:27,129
I spent so long doing them for other
people, and I keep learning new things,

889
00:57:27,719 --> 00:57:32,385
or someone will say something to me and
it's like, Oh, That's a fantastic idea.

890
00:57:32,435 --> 00:57:33,635
That's going in the toolkit.

891
00:57:34,365 --> 00:57:36,985
And, and then I'm like,
I'll never be finished.

892
00:57:36,995 --> 00:57:38,455
How could I do mine?

893
00:57:41,035 --> 00:57:43,475
Catherine Ashton: Do you recall
some of those things that you think,

894
00:57:43,484 --> 00:57:45,084
oh, that might go in the toolkit?

895
00:57:46,455 --> 00:57:48,115
Rebecca Lyons: Ah, yeah.

896
00:57:48,555 --> 00:57:54,235
I, I had this great, I had this great
lesson what quite a long time ago

897
00:57:54,235 --> 00:57:58,975
now with advanced care directives
and it was to always put something,

898
00:57:59,255 --> 00:58:01,335
always put some of the doing in there.

899
00:58:02,234 --> 00:58:05,814
So when people go, so advanced care
directives, as you would know, are

900
00:58:05,814 --> 00:58:09,755
all about your wishes and how you
want to be treated medically and, you

901
00:58:09,755 --> 00:58:13,265
know, don't do this, life prolonging
treatments and medications and

902
00:58:13,265 --> 00:58:15,075
interventions and, and all of that stuff.

903
00:58:15,175 --> 00:58:21,415
stuff but in the values section you should
always put something in there that's the

904
00:58:21,575 --> 00:58:28,265
doing because when people go to a bedside
of someone who's dying they're a little

905
00:58:28,265 --> 00:58:33,520
bit awkward sometimes if they're not if
they're not used to being in that space.

906
00:58:34,010 --> 00:58:37,190
And so they might talk a lot, or
they might want to feed you, or

907
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:41,300
they might, like, it's all of the
things that we nervously do to

908
00:58:41,300 --> 00:58:46,560
express our care because there's
nothing that we actually know to do.

909
00:58:47,540 --> 00:58:50,960
And, you know, we don't get a playbook
when we leave Year 12 going, and

910
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:54,390
by the way, when your grandma dies,
here's the things you need to do.

911
00:58:54,510 --> 00:58:56,290
Like, that doesn't happen, right?

912
00:58:56,690 --> 00:58:58,380
Actually, we should probably do that.

913
00:58:58,870 --> 00:59:06,800
Anyway, there, I'm thinking like, I put
in things like, read to me, play me music,

914
00:59:07,150 --> 00:59:10,220
give me a foot massage, hold my hand.

915
00:59:10,730 --> 00:59:17,439
I put the doing things in there so that
when people go to spend time with someone

916
00:59:17,439 --> 00:59:22,780
who's dying, they have something to do
that they know is of value to that person.

917
00:59:25,300 --> 00:59:30,190
And, and I think that's That's a gift to
all of your friends and family if you're

918
00:59:30,220 --> 00:59:35,929
dying, is to, it's, it's a way you can,
as a dying person, still hold space for

919
00:59:35,929 --> 00:59:40,770
people and, and tell them what's important
to you so that they're comfortable

920
00:59:40,770 --> 00:59:42,060
enough to spend more time with you.

921
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:47,160
Because often you'll go, oh look, I went
to visit, but You know, she wasn't really

922
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:51,680
responding, or she was non responsive, and
so I was probably only there for five or

923
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:56,350
ten minutes, or like, we were there for
half an hour, but you know, didn't feel

924
00:59:56,350 --> 01:00:02,840
right to sit on my phone, scrolling, so,
you know, so we, we put things in there.

925
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:07,890
That other people can engage with
and engage meaningfully with you

926
01:00:07,910 --> 01:00:09,480
because they know it's a value.

927
01:00:10,390 --> 01:00:14,759
That's probably one of the biggest
things in the toolbox of when I

928
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:18,219
do planning with people because I
just think that's such a beautiful,

929
01:00:18,899 --> 01:00:21,905
heart centered thing to You know?

930
01:00:24,635 --> 01:00:24,905
Catherine Ashton: And it

931
01:00:24,905 --> 01:00:27,755
would remove
that, that awkwardness and

932
01:00:27,755 --> 01:00:29,505
that not knowing what to do.

933
01:00:29,905 --> 01:00:34,875
And I'm thinking Wordle
or WordFind might be mine.

934
01:00:36,134 --> 01:00:36,654
Rebecca Lyons: Brilliant.

935
01:00:37,085 --> 01:00:38,735
Needs to go in the
Advanced Care Directive.

936
01:00:39,535 --> 01:00:43,455
Even, even things like, I've been in
there recently, I've been asking people

937
01:00:43,974 --> 01:00:48,565
and putting things in like, show me
my old photographs, reminisce with me.

938
01:00:49,785 --> 01:00:53,955
Like all of that, that sort of
stuff, you know, what do you value?

939
01:00:53,955 --> 01:00:54,975
You value your people.

940
01:00:55,245 --> 01:00:58,944
Oh, would you value sharing some
stories and memories with them,

941
01:00:58,945 --> 01:01:03,284
looking at old recipes or photos or,
oh, yeah, that'd be, oh, I haven't

942
01:01:03,284 --> 01:01:05,175
seen those old photos in forever.

943
01:01:05,444 --> 01:01:06,335
Catherine Ashton: That'd be great.

944
01:01:06,555 --> 01:01:07,515
Absolutely.

945
01:01:09,424 --> 01:01:14,339
Catherine Ashton: And what do you see
from, from your experience being some of

946
01:01:14,339 --> 01:01:20,805
the biggest challenges that families face
when a loved one is, is dying or has died?

947
01:01:23,605 --> 01:01:26,635
Rebecca Lyons: Probably one of the biggest
challenges is when there's no planning

948
01:01:26,635 --> 01:01:28,605
done and when they're playing guesswork.

949
01:01:30,555 --> 01:01:35,735
When, when no one has actually had the
conversation and a family's just got to

950
01:01:35,824 --> 01:01:37,895
guess what that person might have wanted.

951
01:01:38,765 --> 01:01:41,875
And I've, I've seen that go really wrong.

952
01:01:42,865 --> 01:01:45,815
Like to the point where when I was
in the industry, I, I, you know,

953
01:01:45,865 --> 01:01:47,555
family came back to collect ashes.

954
01:01:48,045 --> 01:01:52,765
Totally devastated because they'd
just read the will and which

955
01:01:52,765 --> 01:01:54,215
none of them had had a copy.

956
01:01:54,515 --> 01:01:56,204
And the will said he wanted to be buried.

957
01:01:56,275 --> 01:02:06,655
And so, you know, the sum of, there's
a lot of stuff that is, is then,

958
01:02:06,665 --> 01:02:11,924
you know, the basis of trauma that
happens because no one stepped into the

959
01:02:11,924 --> 01:02:14,085
conversation before they've needed it.

960
01:02:15,704 --> 01:02:16,424
Catherine Ashton: So Bec,

961
01:02:16,625 --> 01:02:19,704
are there any
cherished memories or traditions

962
01:02:19,705 --> 01:02:25,795
that you have from your family
that you have then honoured in your

963
01:02:25,795 --> 01:02:26,595
own family?

964
01:02:28,925 --> 01:02:35,030
Rebecca Lyons: There are, and it's actually been really
Bizarre for me the last couple of years

965
01:02:35,060 --> 01:02:43,800
because, you know, in the last four years,
I've had five funerals for my people.

966
01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:44,970
Five years.

967
01:02:48,380 --> 01:02:53,230
And so all of that has changed
really rapidly for me, particularly

968
01:02:53,230 --> 01:02:58,229
since 2021, because both my mum, my
dad and my brother have all died.

969
01:02:58,330 --> 01:03:05,029
And so the, what that landscape
looks like for me is very different.

970
01:03:05,029 --> 01:03:06,320
But, but there are some things.

971
01:03:06,339 --> 01:03:09,610
I love having a fresh Christmas tree.

972
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:11,690
And I'm, I'm, I'm not Christian.

973
01:03:11,690 --> 01:03:15,570
I don't necessarily, I don't, I
don't celebrate Christmas, but I

974
01:03:15,570 --> 01:03:17,770
am pagan, so I have a Yule tree.

975
01:03:18,279 --> 01:03:19,239
And, and.

976
01:03:19,740 --> 01:03:20,680
And I love that.

977
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:22,310
I love the scent and the smell.

978
01:03:22,310 --> 01:03:27,230
And I remember that from my childhood
and the baking, my, my grandmother.

979
01:03:28,150 --> 01:03:31,690
There is nothing that woman couldn't
cook and there, like, it didn't matter

980
01:03:31,690 --> 01:03:33,600
how many people turned up for dinner.

981
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:37,239
There was always enough food, even
when there wasn't any money for it.

982
01:03:37,239 --> 01:03:39,550
Like, I actually don't
know how she did it.

983
01:03:39,550 --> 01:03:40,849
I think she was magic.

984
01:03:42,069 --> 01:03:45,940
But, but I still have some of her recipes.

985
01:03:45,949 --> 01:03:52,235
So I love making, like, the The
Christmas pudding recipe that I have

986
01:03:52,255 --> 01:03:57,424
is about 120, 130 years old, and it's,
you know, still all in ounces and

987
01:03:57,424 --> 01:03:59,365
pounds and all of that sort of thing.

988
01:03:59,384 --> 01:04:04,345
And, and so they're the
things for me that bring back.

989
01:04:05,275 --> 01:04:11,825
Those memories and, yeah, it's, it's very
cathartic in some ways and I've avoided it

990
01:04:12,385 --> 01:04:18,285
for the last, last year and a bit because
it's still a bit painful at the moment.

991
01:04:18,544 --> 01:04:20,515
My mum was a Christmas nut.

992
01:04:22,064 --> 01:04:27,015
Everything that moved, jiggled,
played jingle bells, sang,

993
01:04:27,205 --> 01:04:29,075
danced, she, she has it.

994
01:04:29,905 --> 01:04:34,145
There's like half a shed full
of boxes of Christmas things.

995
01:04:34,795 --> 01:04:36,095
And so they're still sitting there.

996
01:04:36,125 --> 01:04:41,174
And I, I know that one day I will have
to just get out and do a mum's Christmas.

997
01:04:41,745 --> 01:04:47,755
But yeah, at the moment it's, I just
love the smell of the pine in the house.

998
01:04:47,820 --> 01:04:48,379
Catherine Ashton: And

999
01:04:50,460 --> 01:04:55,230
Bec, you just mentioned
that you have had your mum, your dad

1000
01:04:55,270 --> 01:05:02,170
and your brother die in short succession
in the last few years since 2021.

1001
01:05:02,500 --> 01:05:10,190
How has your experience with the
death industry, you know, your,

1002
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:15,280
your, your training as a end of
life doula, and also just your life

1003
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:17,010
experience with what you've seen.

1004
01:05:17,670 --> 01:05:18,510
How.

1005
01:05:18,835 --> 01:05:23,605
Has that, has that helped you, you
know, with your grieving of your

1006
01:05:23,605 --> 01:05:24,195
family?

1007
01:05:25,295 --> 01:05:30,975
Rebecca Lyons: I, it's helped me a lot in
some ways and not in others.

1008
01:05:31,525 --> 01:05:38,095
It's helped me in that I got to be the
funeral director and the mortician and,

1009
01:05:38,555 --> 01:05:40,885
you know, I took out my mum's pacemaker.

1010
01:05:42,105 --> 01:05:50,324
Like, I, I prepared the bodies of my
people and I got to do that and do it.

1011
01:05:51,665 --> 01:05:58,045
my way and know that I was the
last person to do that for them.

1012
01:05:58,045 --> 01:06:00,895
And I think that's, I think that's
the benefit of home funeral.

1013
01:06:00,895 --> 01:06:05,375
It's the benefit of the skills and
the knowledge that I have now is

1014
01:06:05,405 --> 01:06:11,975
that I think grief is different
when the last thing you do for your

1015
01:06:11,995 --> 01:06:14,395
person is an act of service and care.

1016
01:06:15,675 --> 01:06:16,125
And.

1017
01:06:16,660 --> 01:06:18,560
And for me, that's what it was.

1018
01:06:18,590 --> 01:06:23,060
I got to be the last person to
touch them and to care for them.

1019
01:06:23,570 --> 01:06:27,269
And, and that meant, that
meant something to me.

1020
01:06:27,669 --> 01:06:31,490
The role of the funeral director
itself in terms of ceremony.

1021
01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:39,130
Probably not as helpful to my grieving
process because I was the funeral

1022
01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:43,380
director and a funeral director has a
job to do and that job is to hold space

1023
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:47,200
for everyone in that place for ceremony.

1024
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:48,489
I was also the celebrant.

1025
01:06:49,209 --> 01:06:53,420
So I wanted to be the one
to do all of those things.

1026
01:06:54,660 --> 01:07:00,360
And on the day of that, I think
I didn't get the benefit of the

1027
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:03,790
ceremony of being the person
sitting, receiving the ceremony.

1028
01:07:04,350 --> 01:07:08,490
But I am really grateful to have been
able to give that to everyone else.

1029
01:07:09,050 --> 01:07:14,650
And I'm really, I'm content that I
know that's particularly my mum, that's

1030
01:07:14,650 --> 01:07:16,380
exactly what my mum would have wanted.

1031
01:07:16,820 --> 01:07:21,090
And I think it's, I think my brother
would have really, and my dad would

1032
01:07:21,090 --> 01:07:22,820
have really appreciated that too.

1033
01:07:23,070 --> 01:07:26,600
So I, I, you know, that's the
double edged sword, isn't it?

1034
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:31,360
I, I didn't get the benefit of the
ceremony, but I got the knowledge that

1035
01:07:31,409 --> 01:07:33,799
everyone else did, and that mattered.

1036
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:39,659
Catherine Ashton: I can't thank you
enough for your time today, Bec.

1037
01:07:39,660 --> 01:07:41,420
Is there anything else that you'd like

1038
01:07:41,420 --> 01:07:42,590
to share?

1039
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:46,380
Rebecca Lyons: No, I think we've covered a fair bit.

1040
01:07:47,359 --> 01:07:48,440
Catherine Ashton: We certainly have.

1041
01:07:48,870 --> 01:07:49,870
Thank
you so much for your

1042
01:07:49,870 --> 01:07:50,549
time, Bec.

1043
01:07:50,939 --> 01:07:51,460
Rebecca Lyons: Thank you.

1044
01:07:52,769 --> 01:07:53,009
Catherine Ashton: We

1045
01:07:53,010 --> 01:07:55,879
hope you enjoyed
today's episode of Don't Be Caught

1046
01:07:55,910 --> 01:07:58,080
Dead, brought to you by Critical Info.

1047
01:07:59,030 --> 01:08:03,290
If you liked the episode, learnt something
new, or were touched by a story you

1048
01:08:03,290 --> 01:08:05,240
heard, We'd love for you to let us know.

1049
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:08,990
Send us an email, even tell
your friends, subscribe so you

1050
01:08:08,990 --> 01:08:10,730
don't miss out on new episodes.

1051
01:08:10,910 --> 01:08:15,060
If you can spare a few moments,
please rate and review us as it

1052
01:08:15,060 --> 01:08:16,770
helps other people to find the show.

1053
01:08:17,100 --> 01:08:18,420
Are you dying to know more?

1054
01:08:18,570 --> 01:08:19,560
Stay up to date with.

1055
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:23,490
Don't be caught dead by signing up to
our newsletter and follow us on social

1056
01:08:23,490 --> 01:08:29,690
media Head to Don't Be Caught dead.com for
more information and loads of resources.

Read Less