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I was 12 and my father died in really tragic circumstances. I wasn't allowed to go to the funeral. Mm-hmm. They kind of shipped you off to an auntie or somewhere. It was considered. You were too young to see the grief, to see everybody there. And it also really played on my mind for many years as I grew up.

I thought, well, I don't think he is dead .

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PENNY: Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging open conversations about dying and the death of a loved one. I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to bring your stories of death back to life because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared.

Don't be caught dead. Acknowledges the lands of the Kulin nations and [00:01:00] recognizes their connection to land, sea, and community. We pay our respects to their elders past, present, and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe.

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Catherine: Today, I'm speaking with Kathie Shearer. Kathie has lived a life as colorful as the east end of London where she was born, and as expansive as the fairways she walked alongside the greats of golf world. Marrying Australian golf legend, Bob Shearer

In 1975, Kathie became a respected media manager in professional golf, running tournament media centers for three decades. In 2001, Australian Golf Digest recognized her with a special services to golf award, nicknaming her, "the woman who tamed the tiger." Outside [00:02:00] sport, kathie has been dedicated over 20 years as a marriage and funeral celebrant, guiding people through life's biggest milestones with honesty, humor, and compassion.

Following Bob's death in 2022, Kathie channeled her lived experience into writing " last orders" a book about preparing for life's final chapter with courage and clarity. Thank you so much for being with us today, Kathie.

Kathie: Thank you very much for the invitation.

Catherine: I love the fact that uh, you are described as the, as colorful as the east end of London, where you were born, and, and I love the fact that we've just been comparing our very colorful tops that, that we are wearing today. So, I, I like the fact that there a woman who's not afraid of color. so tell me that is quite the life that you have led, especially during that very high profile period with the golf tournaments and, and you know, walking alongside Bob during that stage of his life.

Tell me a [00:03:00] little bit about what that was like.

Kathie: Well, it was so different to where I was, you know, how I was brought up. I come from a very working class family. We all had jobs, and if you didn't have two or three jobs, my grandmother would try and find you another job. and then to sort of walk the fairways and know this was how you could make a living. loved every moment of it. I thought, this is, this is marvelous. I mean, we're, we're walking out. The sun is shining. not thinking of anything too much. And it was just a complete contrast to where I'd, as, as I said, how I grew up, how we were a very working class family. My grandmother had a marvelous saying.

She used to say, only the very, very rich and the very, very poor don't work, and the rest of you get yourself a job or two or three. So was a contrast, but I embraced or liked to think I embraced every part of it.

Catherine: And tell me what were you doing prior to this role where you were running the media centers for these [00:04:00] tournaments? , What was your role prior to, to meeting Bob?

Kathie: Well, actually that's how I got the job running the media centers. I did promotional work. It was years ago. It was, I worked for a cigarette company and they sponsored everything. They sponsored the golf, they sponsored the tennis, they sponsored motor racing. They did show jumping. We did everything.

And I had met Jackie Butterworth slash Newton. She was Jackie Butterworth. We were young women in London. And her great friend had a company called Sales Charm. And Sales Charm used to provide. The girls to do the promotional work. I mean, we weren't grid girls. We certainly didn't have sort of funny outfits.

We were dressed in jackets and pants and it was just to promote things or to, to be where you needed to be. A little bit like the Emirates girls. [00:05:00] But we weren't quite that glamorous. But you would, they would give you uniforms to wear and you would smile, and this would be a lovely, and the cigarettes would be available.

We never sold cigarettes. And when I say a cigarette girl, people imagine that I've got one of those big trays in front of me,

Catherine: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kathie: Selling cigarettes. But that was the start of it. And as I said, Jackie Butterworth had started to date Jack Newton, and it was at her birthday party that I met Bob. So I've, I've kind of gone from what I did beforehand. I was trained in accountancy, which is a long stretch, a long bow from where I ended up in promotional work. 

Catherine: Yeah. Yeah, it 

is.

Kathie: I met Bob at a tennis tournament in Bournemouth and he was playing at a four ball tournament in Bournemouth. And the, the guys, the tennis players would go over and watch the [00:06:00] golfers, and the golfers would come and watch the tennis players.

So I, I wasn't working at a tennis tournament when I met him. I was working at tennis tournament, but he was playing in the golf tournament in the same area. And that was it. So

Catherine: And and what was it that attracted you, Kathie

Kathie: he was so calm and I'm not so calm. He was slow speaking and not too many words where. suppose it was the opposite that attracted me. He was kind of steady and strong, and I never knew that I would like anybody like that. I always thought I wanted somebody to be a chatterbox the same as I am. But he was very, very nice, very calm, didn't rush anything. And I think that was the thing that attracted me most. And they, and they were rather naughty. Uh, Jack Newton, Bob Shearer, Ian Stanley, although they were calm, they really didn't seem to that they [00:07:00] cared, but they didn't care. You know, if they went out to dinner, it would be great fun and they would be noisy.

And back in the early seventies, it would, they were so different to an English fella if you were going out with an English fella, you know, so that, that, that was a great attraction as well. So, very good.

Catherine: And talk us through those. Is next, sort of, you know, 20 years or so that, you were, how long were you in the, the actual tournament and running the, the media centers there? Talk us through that, that period of time.

Kathie: We got married in 75. I had my first son in 77 and my second in 82. So during that period we were traveling and, you know, I was a, a tour player's wife and, and that took up all our time. They used to play much more than what they play now. Now they sort of play 19, 20 weeks a year. And I can remember one year Bob was on the road 42 weeks.

He was a [00:08:00] real journeyman playing and we would, we would travel with him, especially with my first child. And then we came back to Australia and Graham Marsh, another great golfer was running a tournament at Royal Melbourne in 1989 and Bob. Had played with Graham, and Graham said, your wife used to do this kind of thing.

I need somebody in the media center, not to run the media center. He already had somebody to do that, but somebody there that had a knowledge of Melbourne, had a knowledge of, sort of sort sorted the media. And that was the start of it. And I remember Bob said, I've got a job for you. I said, I don't want a job. I've got two children. I don't need a job. He said, no, you like this, you really like this. And that was the start, the Coca-Cola Classic at Royal Melbourne.

Catherine: And was he right? Did you like it?

Kathie: I loved it. I loved it. I can remember the first day I [00:09:00] was there, somebody said to me can I get you a coffee and would you like something to eat? And, and, and, you know, are you comfortable? I thought, this is. This is sort of, is this what work is all about? It was like a secret. I never knew I never knew that this was so good.

I thought, oh my goodness, this sounds fabulous to me. And that was the start, 1989. And then the following year IMG approached and asked if I would do a media center for them. And then I sort of became in charge and, and that carried me through for just over 30 years. Hmm. Quite something here and here and overseas and in England and in America.

So quite something.

Catherine: And tell me, Kathie, what was one of your favorite moments during that period or two? If you'd like,

Kathie: Well, it's always, you know, it's great. Do you mean when I was on the tour or when I was [00:10:00] in the media center or both?

Catherine: any time during that period. What are your, what are your favorite memories from that time?

Kathie: I think the travel, I think just being with the boys, I think, you know, we, we were living in America part of the time. We lived in South Carolina. We lived there for about nine years, on and off. We would always come back to Australia and then go to England in between. The travel never worried me uh, the boys, as long as they were well and safe and Bob was ticking it over, you know, when he won, it was great.

When he didn't win, it was still okay. And then during the media years, you know, my, I suppose some of the best times were when I was doing the interviews when, because back then the. The media would ask you for the players to come in every single day. Every single day. They wanted somebody to come in. They never left the media center. They were quite [00:11:00] characters in their own right. And now it's so different because they interview at the beginning of the week and they interview at the end of the week. And in between the press can hustle around and, and, and get their own stories. Or every now and again they'll have somebody in.

But when, when I was at the helm, they wanted it every single, they wanted Greg Norman every single day. They wanted Toka Woods every single day. They wanted Ernie ELs every single day. And that was where I thought I did well in enticing them to come in 

Catherine: and what did, what sort of carrots did you dangle to get them in every day. That's a huge commitment when they're also playing professionally at the same time.

Kathie: Well, Greg was always, could be awkward, but never with myself as he'd had his first overseas trip to Palm Springs, where my husband Bob and he [00:12:00] represented Australia and he was quite a young man and so he knew Bob, so that, that made life very much easier for me. And I got to know him. In fact, he was one of the first calls after my husband died. He called to ask how I was doing and, kept really, it's a really lovely friendship. But he could be difficult. But as I say, I was very, very lucky and not with me, I don't think. There was a time that I asked him to come in and he didn't come in. However, when there was somebody that I didn't know so well, like I can remember Sergio Garcia and he didn't want to come in and he hadn't done well, and I would sort of always frame it to say, if you come in and give me 10 minutes, I'll take my watch off. I'll put it in front of you and I'll explain as you sit down to say, Sergio has 10 minutes. We have 10 minutes. Ask the questions now, because then he wants to go [00:13:00] and whatever. See his wife go and practice. I said, otherwise, the media will try and phone you in the hotel. They'll send somebody to wait outside. If you just do it now, you are done for the day. That was always a, a good line or a good, and I would take my watch off and in 10 minutes I'd say last questions and then, you know, that was it. I'd make everybody sit down and I would say, we are now leaving the building. Elvis and I are leaving the building.

So just everybody remains seated and if they sit down and then they could get away and of course I could get away as well. So that was just, just a little ploy.

Catherine: Kathie, I think that that would probably be really good skills to then actually apply as a celebrant as well.

Kathie: Yes, it's very good skills to have when you are involved [00:14:00] in somebody's funeral or, or in somebody's end of life celebration, or it's a good skill to have if you find that somebody is. How could I say, extending what needs to be said and everybody has their time and everybody has their moment. And I've done a funeral where there's been sort of 10 grandchildren that all want to say something and there is, it's lovely for them to say anything they want to say and then have a gentle tap and have the next one in. I think orchestrating that has really been, has really been terrific for me when I've sort of come on to do funerals or I've, I've done them as, as you know, for just over 20 years now, and that the, the sort of, as I say, orchestration of a really good funeral is something that I, I [00:15:00] think is very important, very important to know how to do it.

Catherine: Because it is like a, a performance really, isn't it? And everyone has a, a role to play in the right, format, in the right order. and like you said, allowing the appropriate amount of time for those who are also sitting there viewing the, the, you know, the ceremony as well.

Kathie: Absolutely. You can tell people are engaged and you want to really celebrate the life you want them to, come away and say, oh my, you know, that was timely. It really represented exactly who they were and they would've been happy with, or that's the kind of underlying not only is the family who in grief is, rather pleased with how things have gone, but also for me, am I representing that person? The way I feel, you know, after having meetings with [00:16:00] the family, at least a couple to say, how do you see this? How do you want it to go? what would please you? What would please the newly departed, how can we do this together? How can we make this where their friends, with their family, where their acquaintances really can understand who they are?

Catherine: It's interesting because when you are describing it like, like that, that's exactly what you were nurturing in your role back in those media centers, was actually making sure that the image was held of the particular professional player, the. Everyone got an opportunity to speak. So those skills have, have certainly had a mirroring sort of way in celebrancy by the sounds of it.

Kathie: I suppose so. I, I hadn't really. Thought of it that way before I'd just seen myself as a, as a person that couldn't manage groups of people or try and really [00:17:00] speak to them and understand, you know, what they wanted or, or how they wanted. And for me, in turn to say, this works beautifully and we'll do it this way, if that suits you. So trying to understand, well, I suppose so what the press men wanted. And also understanding the player as I was married to a player and he gave me the greatest line of all where when I started this. And I said, Bob, how can I, make this a success? And he said, you've gotta remember one thing. Good play, good behavior, bad play, bad behavior. And that set me a marvelous stead for the next 30 years. 

Catherine: That is very, very wise, very good advice, isn't it?

Kathie: it certainly was, certainly, certainly was. Yes. And there were some real curly [00:18:00] ones. And just to understand, you know, but I thought I really always had a bit of a leg up there when I was working because they knew I was married to Bob, obviously. And even though he wasn't around all the time, I think they knew that I understood, you know, that you're pretty miserable if you've been out there all day or it's very hot or you're, and then you come in and you finish with a couple of bogies and then the whole day seems to be wasted and you don't want to talk to anybody.

You don't want to explain anything to anybody. So that's it. I.

Catherine: And Kathie, can you give us some insight? Um, I in a previous life managed professional boxes, uh. and, and so, so I am familiar to a degree about someone who, from a very young age, has all that they've focused on is a particular sport to the point that they've actually got at an elite [00:19:00] level within that sport.

And they are generally a, a, a world leader in that field. And from my observation what I have seen is therefore they have been conditioned to be the focus of everyone supporting them and everyone around them during that process from really their very young years. And then the flip side of that is when they are no longer achieving those levels or that elite sort of professional sort of stage, their change in that support network. Sometimes a lot of that support net fall, you know, falls away. And tell me a little bit about what you've seen in relation to, you know, when you've seen the people that you've dealt with and managed at a very elite level. And then perhaps on the other side when their career is in decline or, or no [00:20:00] longer achieving the great heights they once were.

Tell us a little bit about that insight. 

Kathie: Can I just preface that to say, I'm so jealous of your previous career. I was brought up, I was brought up Reading Ring Magazine.

My father was a, my father was a light heavyweight and he boxed under the name of Alfie Jackson. I'll just be very brief with

Catherine: Oh no, don't be brief. I love, I love this. Alfie Jackson. I'm writing that down so my, I can tell my husband so he can look it up.

Kathie: a light heavyweight. Alfie Jackson. Yes. That, and my grandson's name is Jake Jackson. after my father. And he would wake me in the middle of the night and tap me on the shoulder so we could watch Sonny Liston. 

Catherine: Yeah. 

Kathie: mean, we were just the, he had Ring magazine, I was brought up in the boxing environment, and when I was a cigarette girl, [00:21:00] they would sponsor boxing.

And we had these beautiful velvet dresses with like silk jabos, and none of the girls would do the boxing because they didn't like all of the, you know how every boxing match. And in England, men would come in their dinner suits and sit at tables and watch the boxing in the, I mean, so putting that to one side, I'm jealous and I'm not jealous of anything, but I'm jealous of your former career.

I've always thought I'd like to be a referee.

Catherine: oh, I, I actually got asked to be a referee. Which was, you know, in the, this was early two thousands that, that I was asked, 'cause my, I, resigned from the role when I had my son, and that was in 2004. But we would, we would actually put on three course dinners or three course luncheons at the, the powerhouse at Elba Park.

And anyone who knows that it's right on Albert Park Shore overlooking the beautiful lake. And they [00:22:00] would be very well sponsored. And it would be a, a title bout and everyone would be sitting down in their best dressed clothes watching the fight. Very similar to how you were recording or, or, you know, in, in those, those days in in England.

So yeah, I was I was very lucky it was around the time of the Koster Zoo World title fight in Melbourne. and so we were involved in that. And so, yeah, it was, it was another world very, very far removed from what I do now.

Kathie: Oh my goodness. I remember when I first came to Australia and Bob took me to Festival Hall,

and I saw Jimmy Thunder. Jimmy Thunder,

Catherine: Oh yes. yeah, yeah, yeah. 

yeah.

Oh, I love that. I love that. Oh, this is fantastic. So, so, we were just talking about.

Kathie: to what you asked. Mm-hmm.

Catherine: Just, just not many people get to see. Everyone sees the, the athlete at their, their pinnacle, their prime, but not many people see or understand when those supports and that [00:23:00] prestige is no longer there and the money and the purse is no longer as, as large as what it once was.

A lot of that support falls off and that can be very challenging for the athlete. And I'm sure you would've seen that over your career in the media center. Can you give us some sort of insight about what you notice during that period of someone's, someone's career as their sort of going into the more twilight years.

Kathie: Well, that never really happened until I'd been in the business some time. And I can remember an English golfer called Paul Casey and I interviewed him. We were in Sydney. He was playing there. And it's the first time I'd ever heard a golfer say, my team. And it, I thought, oh, what's he talking about team? Because prior to that, you know, in my husband's era, and, and even with Greg Norman, there was never a team, but Paul Casey said, well, I've got my my physio with me. [00:24:00] I thought, my goodness. And funny, it always stuck in my mind. It was years ago, he had a team and I remember thinking, where is he paying this team?

I mean, he's really gotta earn something to have this team with him. I think they were all really friends and he made out that he, he had this team, well, he didn't make out, but, you know, and we're eating this and we're eating that. I'm sure it was just his friends with him, but he, he made a point of it, and then of course it became the norm, you know?

And, and I can always remember thinking, oh my goodness, you've gotta play well because you're not only playing for you, but you are plan for the team. And the team must all be telling you, you can do it. This is how we do it. You know, you are nearly there or you are not nearly there. And building them up.

And of course everybody now has a team. Everybody has what you are eating, what you are exercising, and they're earning far, far. More money than they ever did back then. But it is quite something to see. And I've seen it quite a [00:25:00] lot where they've had successful careers for maybe one or two years and, you know, the wives are more bouncy and the rolexes are more evident and different things like that.

You, I've always been a very interesting observer of people and I've seen such a lot of people and, and, you know, they're sort of in the high life and then it does go on decline and I'm always surprised that they're more, there isn't more or it's not known if they, you know, have mental troubles.

it was never spoken about, but it's, it's tough. It's very tough. Years ago you could play, I can only really speak of golf. You could play four rounds and not get paid. They didn't pay anybody and you had your caddy expenses and, but that's entirely different now. But it is, , it's sad to see some, accept it [00:26:00] better than others. Some have very lovely, strong family lives, others don't, others, you know, they all have to put body and soul into it. And I dunno what to say. I mean, in my case with Bob, it was very hard for him. It was hard for him. He played a lot socially at Southern Golf Club and he had that as the most wonderful backup. You know, when he came home, it didn't matter how he'd played overseas, but he had a lot of years playing. Well, earning a good living. But when he came back, he played a lot of social golf at Southern. So when he did retire or when he said to me, I can't hit over a dustbin there was somewhere for him to go and his friends were waiting with open arms for him to come back, and he could always play better than all of them anyway, so it allowed him to gradually decline. 

Catherine: And that's interesting [00:27:00] because that, is something that you probably hear myriad with families when people are, either diagnosed with a life limiting illness or when you are gathering loved ones around to talk about someone when they have died. is it the social network that is the most important thing and their loved ones?

Like, what is the things that we talk about around that, that table when you are, you're preparing the ceremony, Kathie, what have you found that matters the most in the end?

Kathie: Family and friends and social life and how you relate to people, how, you know, we all hope that we'll hopefully get to our eighties or, you know, in a perfect life or whatever. And you hope that you still have one or two friends there, or, or more, or, I look at shopping centers sometimes and I see lots of men sitting around there, especially Italian men or Greek men I just love, [00:28:00] love that kind of thing.

And when we talk to families. The loss is, tremendous. But to, to find that common ground, to find that the songs that they've sung have not been left behind. That everybody can remember when he was at this Christmas party or when she was, you know, she broke into song in my mother's later day.

She sometimes couldn't remember a thing, but she always wanted to go back to Las Vegas and she could, when we were in the car, could s sing word for word John Denver songs. And, you know, just those things that, that, really make you human even though that we're, you know, at, at the end or coming towards the end. It's so important, that interaction and that that's really all we have is how people, when they hear our name, they, they smile and think of a memory that they have or. You know, [00:29:00] something they've done together or something that's made them laugh or been a bit silly. And, and that's the kind of thing I think that we may be all I know, that's how I want to be remembered with my boys and, and, and my friends.

And that's how I would always remember. You know, I remember my husband as well when, you know, he would say something and he would laugh hard and really, tears would come to his eyes. And for my father, it was the same thing. You know, I lost him early in my life, but he laughed till he cried.

And they're the things that I, I still think about. I still couldn't tap into those memories. And that's, I think that's what life is all about really, for me. It is. Hmm.

Catherine: And tell me what was it like when Bob died in 2022?

Kathie: Well, it was so sudden Bob hadn't been, I can't say he, he was sick, but he'd had diabetes and he was on insulin. He did have a defibrillator over the years, [00:30:00] he sort of with the journey of time, he didn't, he still played golf three and four times a week. And in fact he had, he played on a Monday with the old guys on a Monday, and he died on a Sunday. And, but on the Saturday he'd still, I remember having a conversation with him. He said, oh, I, you know, he didn't feel so well. He said, I dunno, I feel a bit. Wobbly, but it had a bit of vertigo and everything had been addressed in a timely manner. And on the Saturday night he said, you know, oh, I dunno, I felt, I feel a bit dizzy.

I said, you're gonna play golf on Monday? He said, oh yeah, I'll be okay tomorrow. And I said, oh, bloody yeah, okay. And he had his clothes ready. So I didn't have , that lead in. I didn't, we'd conversed of course, a lot because of what I did and you know, everything that I'd done. And we were married uh, 47 years on the Monday on the 10th, and he died on the ninth. And for so many, and particularly men particularly his friends have said, [00:31:00] that's for me. That's what I want. That's what, that's exactly how I want to go. You know, I just want to one day there be preparing for golf. Next day, not be there. I said, well, that's good for you, but dreadful for those left behind. That was the catalyst. It, I mean, this book has been an itch I've tried to scratch. you've just got to be, I don't wanna say prepared, because your family will have their own ideas, but just in a time of grief, you want to be in a position where you know that it doesn't have to bankrupt you to, you know, funeral directors certainly have a place, I mean, certainly, certainly, and for many religions it's, it's vital.

But for, for, the rank and file, there's other ways to do things. And if you just take, I think I said in the book, it's like booking a cruise and you want the best room and you want to get the drinks package [00:32:00] and you want to have everything and book it and then forget about it. Just, just leave it to one side, but know

Catherine: Cool.

Kathie: when it's time you, you have a point of reference that you can, you know, say, well, I, I'd really like this, I'd like this to happen.

And that gives, I always think for me, it's a love letter to my two sons. I want them to know, I want them to be not prepared. You know, I, I love the life with them. I'm crazy about them, but I want them just to be able to pick up something or see something and say, oh, that was it. Or that, you know, she liked that music and, you know, just wanna keep, keep the way it is.

You know, what the London Philharmonic Orchestra singing playing, you know, just, just different things like that, Catherine, and just, that's just for me, that's only my ideas and that's what made me write the book. [00:33:00] Just a, it's only a, you can read the book in two hours, but it's got just places where you can write things down and maybe make life easier, make, maybe make decision making easier. 

Catherine: And tell me, Kathie, you mentioned that, that you had always had conversations with Bob uh, about end of life planning. How early did those conversations start? 

Kathie: I think when he became unwell, you know, but even a little bit before that, because it was so much easier for us to address, I did a number of funerals for the members of Southern Golf Club the partners had asked me what I, they knew, they knew what I was doing. Although it's, it's, it's really been I've never advertised.

I've never. Sort of said this, what I, this is what I do, but it, it's more word of mouth. And then Bob had seen me do these and, and we discussed, you know, oh, that was good and I didn't know that [00:34:00] about him, and I didn't know this about her. Or, so it was a much more open conversation than if we just, you know, sitting having dinner and saying, well, look, now we're 65, 70.

We better start talking about it. It was something that, you know, that Oh, organically, it just was always there. You know, I knew he wanted to be cremated. He knew I wanted to be cremated. I knew what music he liked. I knew he loved the Eagles, and we had take it to the limit, and then the golf club, which was wonderful, absolutely wonderful.

We had it there, which was his home from home. So for me, as difficult as it was. It was so much easier than lots of people that I've seen in this position that just don't have a clue, don't know where to begin, and I just pulled into something and then stood back and thought, oh [00:35:00] my goodness, I would've done things differently then. 

Catherine: And tell me a little bit about the book. You, you say that it would take someone to less than two hours to read it. Tell us, tell us a little bit about What was the thing that really was the itch that you referred to earlier that motivated you to actually write it?

Kathie: Well, the book is called Last Orders Before You Go. And I took that from in England, you know, I'm sure it's the same here, but in the pubs in England, they would always say, last orders, ladies and gentlemen, which means you better get to the bar and get yourself a drink because the pub was closing. So that's where the name last orders came from.

And then the Strap Line is a book for the Living, the Ultimate Guide to Dying Happy. And that was the, premise of it is to just, to show you, there's so many different ways to do things. You don't have to have a director from you know, funeral director. You don't have to, you can [00:36:00] question things, you know, do you want this, do you want your. Pillow to have this on it or that on it, or do you want the book to be, you know, you can get a special book and this will be a memory and a, you know, you just need to be, you need to, you know, say I'd like to be cremated. I'd like to have a great big party at the RSL. a friend just had a big party there because everybody there was a senior, so they had a marvelous meal, you know, was just fabulous. And you can have sort of a private room and have a absolute knees up, you know, or you can, as I did with my mother. And after we were finished at the golf club with Bob, they came back to the house. I had, I think in the book I wrote about Cosco sandwiches to have that there's different ways to do it.

You can still have somebody there orchestrating people to come up and [00:37:00] talk, and yet not have to be in a chapel somewhere. Or you may choose the chapel and then leave the chapel. I know with my mother, they said, well, , I needed somebody there from who she was cremated from, and they said, you need somebody there.

I said, why? I said, I know what I'm doing, and you need this guest book. I said, no, I don't. I'll get one from Office Works. It was just tiny things. you don't have to be forced into anything and just a little bit of preparation, just a little bit, and you can be, you know, you, you could be home and hosed you these just as a. By note to this, this pay as you go funerals or pay before you go and you, you know, they say that you, your family won't have to worry. And I'm sure in many, many, many cases that's that is it. But in many, many cases there are always extras that you have to pay that are, you know, that, that, [00:38:00] that need to be done, even with a prepaid funeral.

And they say, you know, this is new. Many years ago in the east end of London, you would pay for your funeral. Somebody would come and you would give them six months a week and six months a week would cover your, your funeral. ' cause they were big funerals. And when my mother was, well, she would always say to me, you've got my funeral money.

Have you got my funeral money? So this prepaid funeral to my knowledge, goes back a hundred years. But you would pay a little bit of week to make sure that you, you had a. Big, fancy funeral, so

Catherine: And tell me, do you remember when your father died? You said that you were quite young. Do you remember what sort of funeral that he had back in? I'm assuming this is back in England.

Kathie: This is back in England and no, I don't, because I was 12 and my father died in really tragic circumstances. I wasn't allowed to go to the [00:39:00] funeral. They kind of shipped you off to an auntie or somewhere. It was considered, you were too young, to see the grief, to see everybody there. And it also really played on my mind for many years as I grew up, I thought, well, I don't think he is dead.

I, haven't seen him and I think they're just lying to me and he's just gone away. And even, I was sort of in my late teens and I can remember seeing somebody walking in front of me. And my father was very distinctive. He was a very big chap, very big. And he was very poor growing up. He used to have his shoes made later in life and he'd had always have suede shoes because he had sore feet.

He always said, because he never managed to get, he was one of the big family of boys and he never managed to get the right size shoes for him. So that's what he said. His feet were sore. And I saw a man walking in [00:40:00] front of me and he used to wear a navy blue raincoat, certain make of raincoat, aqua scooter.

It was, and I saw this man and I thought that there he is. I mean, it was years after I ran ahead. And I turned and looked at the man and go, what? Of course it wasn't. But that, was something that, that resonated with me. The need sometimes to, to see, only if you want to, you know, and just to understand and to have that closure, of a great believer in having something to punctuate the end of your life, you know, , for everybody to gather around and say just how they feel.

And I think that's a very important part for living.

Catherine: And you mentioned previously about how you've allowed in your ceremonies that you've been involved with as a celebrant to have all of the grandchildren say their little bit and then just tap them on the shoulder and allow [00:41:00] each of them to, to have their say. What are the other techniques that you've seen or ways in which you've incorporated children to be involved in ceremonies?

Kathie: Well, it's very much up to the children, but more importantly that the parents have had a word with them. The worst thing is to have a child up there that's so terribly upset, and this goes for anybody who's speaking. We understand everybody's upset, but you, you really must try and deliver as best you can. I know, you know when I've been upset too and I've stood there and it's been a particularly somebody that I know or or somebody that I've really got to know and I've. Had to stand back for a second, or, I have a technique where I kind of put my nails into my hands just to gather myself and step back.

It's no good to be such a mess when you stand up. And I always say, [00:42:00] just write out what you're thinking of saying, and if you feel that you are too upset, I'm just on your le I'm just standing behind you, just outta the way. But I'll just step forward and, and say what you need to say or have a contingency plan where when children come up, it, it's often, most of the time one of the parents will come with them and stand with them, stand beside them.

And that's a technique. That, and, and they'll write something down. And if they do get upset, you know, then they've got something, or the parent or somebody, or they'll look to me. I know it's time to go forward and we all stand there together and I'll just say the words, but they're there. But as I say, it is terribly important that you are able to say them. You think you can, you'll be able to, and then you get up there and it doesn't matter what age they are, it's tough. It's very tough. It's tough for everybody. It's tough [00:43:00] when I'm trying to orchestrate it, not, because it's gone wrong, but, to see them, not for me, but to see people so terribly upset and they want to say it. That's why if they've written it out, it will be said, you know, and they're standing there and I, I, I just kind of take over and say, this is exactly what, what he wants to be known about his. Granddad or his mommy, , this is how he feels, this is how it should be. But for when my mother died, my son that was a bit of an amateur filmmaker, 18 months beforehand, had interviewed my mother and asked her different things. And we had it in I think it was the Boyd Chapel and they had two screens. This is at the in Springvale, which is a big, big crematorium. There's all different chapels there. And I started it by saying, you know, thank you [00:44:00] everybody for being here. And my mother wanted a big funeral with lots of flowers.

And I used to say to her, mom, you know, you don't belong to, I'll do the best I can, but you know, she lived in Australia. But I said, I'll do the best I can mom. And I said that. And then I said, well, instead of me talking about my. My mother was going to talk about herself and the screens came up and my mother's first words were, what if you're listening to this, then I'm in life everlasting. and then she went on for 17 minutes and talked about the war and about and about 10 minutes I said, not much more to go. And then we finished it off with Patsy Klein's Crazy where I said, she made me crazy. She drug me crazy, I'm gonna miss a lot. Crazy. And we cranked up Patsy Klein crazy. So that was, but that was, that.

That was fabulous. That was, and you can just do it on the, on a phone now, but if you've got elderly [00:45:00] parents or a grandma or something might work for you, do you never know? 

Catherine: on the platform that we have we have the ability at the end of each day where we ask people about what was the first pet they had when they were a child, what was the first job they had as for pocket money. And you know, I now have my mom's voice recording of all of those. She wouldn't let me, she wouldn't let me video record her, but she would allow me to audio record her.

And that, that's priceless for, for my, myself and, and for, for my son and, the, the other grandchildren within the family, you know? That's amazing to have that. 

Kathie: Yes. Yeah. And it's not something you go to, to every birthday. It's not something. But every now and again, you think, somebody mentioned something, you say, well, I've got something. And I had it all done on used to be CDs, you

know, and I had my mum speaking and everything, and I had a lot made and set them out to those that couldn't be 

Catherine: Yeah, that's 

Kathie: You know, it wasn't a time where you could now [00:46:00] prerecord. Now you can, you know, everybody has, you can just tune into funerals now. They're all live streamed, but not back then. So. Technology's changed for the better. Mm-hmm.

Catherine: And just when you were mentioning Springvale, you know, at at least, you know, your mum wasn't in in good place because they have a, one of the largest rose collections in the Southern hemisphere. So she certainly uh, got her English flowers in that location. That's for sure.

Kathie: We had huge flowers, huge, you know, from family in that couldn't be there in England. They sent gates of heaven and all sorts of things because we were such florists. That's how I grew up, that she would've been very, very, very pleased with the flowers and she'd been very, very pleased that she was talking at her own funeral. Mm-hmm.

Catherine: And now thinking about Bob, and it's now been a few years since his passing in 2022, [00:47:00] what does grief look like now for you when you think about his death? 

Kathie: There are still times, even four years on where I forget that he's not there. And I think, oh yeah, I'll get a bit of fillet state. Bob will have that. And then I think, oh, that surprises me. I've got two sons and I've got a grandson and they are very present and very there and I feel that he lives on with them. Actually this week I'm just stop my way to one. Am I going to Hobart to see my 15-year-old grandson play football? And Bob's great. Love. Wasn't golf, it was football.

And. Hollywood and he, he's no great player. I have to tell you before, we just plays on the Mornington Peninsula and he plays on the Mornington Peninsula and we would go there every Sunday and I would listen to Macca on the radio and I still do that during the [00:48:00] season.

And it's like, Bobby's there. So the grief is there, but the joy is there. And I'm always grateful to him for showing me this life, for us, going along in it together and also for giving me plenty of space so I can just hang myself. You know? He, he, he was, you know, well you go and do that and I'll keep here. So grief has, has settled somewhere strong and I can't say good. But it's, for me, it's where it needs to be. I question my life more. I have stopped doing weddings because with weddings, they like to book you a year or 18 months in advance, and I can't promise that anymore. I can't promise where I'll be or what I'll be doing in that [00:49:00] time.

So I'm very much now concentrated on funerals. Of course I'm sad when things, I'm sad sometimes when I see couples that we knew that of course are still, you know, they're going out and doing things or going on holidays and things and am I sad? I'm wistful. I'm sometimes a little wistful that. I'm not going there. You know, but um, it sits okay with me. It just sits, it's there. So I was actually listening on the A, B, C to Bob Carr who lost his wife for 50 years, and he said something so poignant and he actually broke down and, and, he said, you lose somebody who thinks you were special and you thought they were special in your own way. And I thought, gosh, [00:50:00] that's, that's something, you know, your partner thinks she's special, that's why you're together. And in your own way, you think they're special in their own way. Other people don't see it. But that's how you feel. And, 

Catherine: And you spent 47 years, you were one day short of 47 years.

Kathie: Mm-hmm

Catherine: that's a long time. How. How do you see Bob being remembered now of someone who was in a very public life? You referred to the fact that Greg Norman was one of the very first phone calls you received after Bob died. how do you view him in, in a public reverence or way?

'cause that's something that a lot of people don't get to see, is that you've, you knew the man both publicly, but privately as well. And how do you see him being remembered now publicly?

Kathie: Well, [00:51:00] it's so marvelous. What's happened. To Bob after he passed away, he actually got an OAM and Southern Golf Club, built a statue of him. The same guy that made the statues all around the MCG. They commissioned him to make a statue, a bronze of Bob, and it's Bob and 25% bigger than Bob. And when I first saw it, I went, oh, and it's Bob in full flight, hitting a ball down the , first fairway of Southern Golf Club. I mean, it is spectacular. It is marvelous. And they have it, it's lit of a nighttime. And they've also had a painting done with all members of Southern Golf Club over the last 80 [00:52:00] years that have. Helped the club. It's, it's just, and in the middle is Bob holding the, Australian Open Trophy and a big, a big board with his wins.

So I'm in such a privilege position and I feel that's been so marvelous of what they've done there. And I can always go there and look at it. I can always, but it isn't for me. It's for the generations. It's for my grandson they've made my sons and members there for him to come along and say, that's my pops. So, I mean, such a unique position. I, I feel so blessed that not only was he my husband and he was a father of my children and a grandfather and, and a friend, that he has been recognized by his golf club in that way. So. For people that don't have that, for people [00:53:00] that, I think, once again, as I said before, it's the memory.

It's when you are out and the name comes up and somebody kindly says something very nice about your partner or Do you remember when I picked him up or, or when I picked her up and she was singing, or, even in her final days when we saw her and, you know, gave her a kiss and, and she said they, you know, I remember the song that they always hummed or where they came from or what, what she was proud of or what he was proud of. That's personal and that's still very personal for me. And I don't go to the golf club all the time and think, you know, look at the statue or, or, or kind of think, yeah, isn't that good? It isn't that way at all. That's for the next generations to see. And I'm, I'm, so grateful. And the cat with the president there at the time, Peter Anderson, he was, he was wonderful.

He was, you know, he, he played every Saturday with Bob at the time and he [00:54:00] was marvelous. And how his memory is kept on there and will, I hope for future generations when I'm no longer here and for my boys and my grandson. So lucky. Very lucky. Mm

Catherine: But it's interesting because your book itself last orders, that is also something that will leave a legacy because when you, you will have seen the difference that it makes when someone shares what their wishes are and the impact that that has on the loved ones surrounding that person when they die compared to when no one knows the wishes and the impact that has.

Kathie: The difficulty is older people for them to understand. It's almost too late. It's almost too late to ask them to confront this. And that's always been something that I understand. I don't fully understand, [00:55:00] but I do understand. They just don't want to, you know, in these retirement villages, , I did stand up and, and speak in one, just one, just the once, just before the book was published. And they didn't want to hear what I had to say. It's almost like it's the children, it is a gift if you can do it. But I do understand you get to in your eighties and you think No. And I've quoted in the book a great friend of mine who's in his seventies, who's my age, and I said, Ian, what?

You know, have you told your your family beautiful family, gorgeous. Close, close? No. He said, no, I'm living it all to them. And I hear that time and time and time again. I'm living it all to them. No, no, no. I don't wanna address this. No, no, no. I don't. I I, I, it's too much. I said, but it's a gift that you give them. It's a gift to say, you know, I wanna be cremated and, I want long way to the top. If you want a rock and roll played, I, I, want [00:56:00] just give them that. Just give them, go to the Barrick Pub or just give them the local R Hill. Or just, just say, you know, just say, I want Dim Simpson sausage rolls for everybody to eat and I want beer.

I only want beer. And if you want something else, you buy it. Just give them that while they're grieving and while they have to make, or they make a decision within a week. And if there's only one complaint, I can really say that you need time. Don't be rushed. Don't think if you have, you know, if, if somebody you love passes away that you have to have the ceremony and everything by the Friday, it isn't necessary. You can take your time. You can, especially if you're cremated and you can say, let's wait until the ashes are there. Or, it's entirely your own choice, but you often can't, [00:57:00] you can't get the ceremony you want, you can't understand the life that you want in three or four days, you know? And, but, but it is, it is really, it's a great interest to me when I'm with older people.

And, and one of my closest friends, my closest friends, one of them said, I can't read the book. And her son-in-law said, it's not for me. I can't, I, I don't wanna address it. I, I, I, and they're, you know, they're close, but she, she said, I, it's all, I said, give it back to me then Pat, so she know you've signed it to me. I said, well, it's hopeless, but then I come across it so often. I, I don't, I just wanna forget it. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. They'll see to it all, they'll clear out the house. They'll do it all. Yeah. But anyway, so it's, I dunno, I dunno who it's aimed at, but it's, it would be great if you could read a chapter and then say, mom, [00:58:00] I need you to answer this to me.

Just a single word. Do you want pink? Do you want blue? Do you want this? Do you want that? Do you want a big ceremony or do you wanna go with dad or Dad? Do you want to go with this or do you wanna be mixed in the same mashes, or, or, or, I've, I've also developed something that's called Loving in a Rock, and it's because I never knew what to do with the ashes. They come back in like a block and it's a rock, and you put the ashes in the rock and there's a plaque on the rock and there is and then you seal them in. And that was also because. I thought I have to do something. been going on for some time because when my father died, we had to go to where he was buried every week for the first couple of years, my mother wanted to go every week and put, you know, be in the florist, put the sands there, and I just, every Sunday and I found it. So It wasn't, it was difficult, but [00:59:00] I thought every week, and this is like a portable rock that should you downsize, you take the rock with you. So the rock is there. I've got Bob, I sometimes bring in, put him next to the fire in the winter. My mother's in the shade. He's, it's, it's in the garden, so it's like a, a big rock that's there.

I, I just didn't want them sitting on the. All the books are. So that was another thing that I just tried to make things easy. Slide things through, make it easy when it's so not easy, when it's so difficult.

Catherine: And is there any other thoughts that you have on how we can make it easier for people?

Kathie: Just talking and the timing is everything. and don't leave it too long. Do it when you're feeling at your best. And that's what I say in the book. Do it when you are happy. When you are all together or when you've had such a [01:00:00] great Christmas or a great birthday or something.

Don't do it when. You, you are ill or you're feeling sick or you are. Try and find a time where you think, oh my God, this life is beautiful and I'm in the garden and I've got a cup of coffee, and I think now I might be able to address right when I won't be sitting in the garden, not having a cup of coffee, just jot something down, just put something down.

Just, just a, you know, whether it's this book, last orders, or whether it's just something that they'll find or give it to your solicitor or just do it in a time where you're really thinking, oh my, aren't I lucky? Isn't life beautiful? I write that down on this day, on this month at this time. Life was so beautiful.

I just wanna tell you that I want my passing to be beautiful and I want you all to remain beautiful and. [01:01:00] Understanding and, and know how, how great it's been and, and maybe how you've made it great for me. You know, by, I mean, boys will be boys, husbands will be husbands, wives will be wives. There's always time where you can have a fight or two, but don't do it.

Then do it when you've, but you're just feeling pleased with and grateful. I think grateful is a word that I use a lot. So grateful. So grateful for what I've had, a grateful for what might come in the future as well. just to be grateful I think, and then pick up the book and write something in it. You know, today I am grateful. It's just a stop. Just a stop. Put it in your handbag, you've got in your handbag. So anyway, that's it. It's only my philosophy and everybody's got something different to say, but, but just try and give them a clue. Give somebody a clue on, on how you feel and how you'd, how you'd like them [01:02:00] to feel or maybe tell them how, how great they've been in your lives or how people have been in your lives, or great friends they've been and, and Matt Long continue.

Just, I think to reiterate that anything that you do is a love letter. Anything that you do is not thinking of yourself is thinking of, what you leave behind. And, and that's all we've got. we're all going somewhere someday.

Catherine: Yeah, that's so true.

Kathie: um, I think that the, in the book, the first, there's lots of quotes in the book. Different, different things. And I've written it to the sheer lads, you know, who I love and, and the great saying a Native American proverb, when we're born, the world rejoices and when we die, the world cries and we rejoice. And I'd like to, I'd like to think maybe that's it. And you know, there's another one time for another drink. Jack Daniels. The last words of Jack Daniels. There's quite a few [01:03:00] last, last, words. And am I dying or is it my birthday Lady Asta, you know, just different things and they are really, are the last, the last words that they say before they close their eyes.

Rol Flynn, and. Marks. I found that very, you know, funny and then

slightly amusing. 

Catherine: No, that's great. I love it. I love it. And

I think that's a beautiful way to leave our, our conversation, Kathie and leave those thoughts with the listeners. I think that's very beautiful.

Kathie: Thank you. Thank you, Catherine. I've done a lot of talking.

Catherine: Oh, I've, I've enjoyed every bit of it. Thank you so much, Kathie. Thanks.

Kathie: You very much indeed. And don't, don't ever get away from the boxing. I just love it. Love it. Watch all the fights. Love Anthony Joshua as well. Gorgeous.

Catherine: Oh my. My husband pays far more attention than what I do nowadays, so thank you so much, [01:04:00] Kathie. 

Kathie: thank you so much, Catherine. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you. Bye-bye now.