Living Well to Die Well: A Philosophical Perspective
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About this episode
In this thought-provoking episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, I sit down with Dr. Simon Longstaff, a philosopher and the first Executive Director of The Ethics Centre. We dive deep into the complexities of life, death, and everything in between. Simon shares his unique journey, from his early days on Groote Eylandt to his kinship ties with the Anindilyakwa people, and how these experiences have shaped his understanding of ethics, community, and the essence of a good life.
We explore the idea that a good death is intrinsically linked to a good life, and how our experiences—both joyful and challenging—contribute to who we are. Simon offers insights into the ethical dilemmas surrounding voluntary assisted dying, the importance of truth and compassion in our final moments, and the role of community in shaping our understanding of life and death. This episode is a heartfelt reminder that while we may not be ready to die, we can certainly prepare ourselves for the inevitable.
Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine
Show notes
Guest Bio
Executive Director of The Ethics Centre
Dr Simon Longstaff AO is a leading Australian ethicist and the Executive Director of The Ethics Centre. With a PhD in philosophy from Cambridge, his work spans ethics in business, government, technology, and society. Since 1991, he has shaped The Ethics Centre into a globally respected institution, helping individuals and organisations navigate complex moral decisions with integrity.
Early in his career, Simon worked in the Northern Territory, forming kinship ties with the Anindilyakwa people of Groote Eylandt—an experience that deeply influenced his ethical outlook. He later became the first Executive Director of The Ethics Centre and co-founded the Festival of Dangerous Ideas, creating platforms for courageous conversations on moral complexity.
Simon has advised global organisations, including the World Economic Forum and the Global Reporting Initiative, and has served on numerous boards. He was appointed an Officer of the Order of Australia in 2013 for his contributions to ethics in governance, business, and education.
Known for his clarity, compassion, and philosophical rigour, Simon brings ethics into everyday conversations—believing that ethical decision-making is not only essential, but accessible to all.
Summary
Key points from our discussion:
- The significance of community and kinship in understanding life and death.
- The ethical complexities surrounding voluntary assisted dying and suicide.
- How our experiences shape our perspectives on death and dying.
- The importance of living authentically and with intention to ensure a good death.
- The impact of technology and AI on our understanding of mortality and memory.
Transcript
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I just think that whoever you are
at any point in time is the sum
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total of all of those experiences.
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Some you might have preferred not
to have had, but you can't sort
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of cherry pick from your life.
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You can't say, oh, I only want all
the fun bits and none of the tough
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00:00:15,510 - ... Read More
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I just think that whoever you are
at any point in time is the sum
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total of all of those experiences.
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Some you might have preferred not
to have had, but you can't sort
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of cherry pick from your life.
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You can't say, oh, I only want all
the fun bits and none of the tough
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bits, because you wouldn't be you
without that total amalgam bringing
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about the unique perspective that you
hold at any point in time as a person.
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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a
podcast encouraging open conversations
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about dying and the death of a loved one.
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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to
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bring your stories of death back to life.
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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.
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Don't be caught dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations
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and recognizes their connection
to land, sea, and community.
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We pay our respects to their
elders past, present, and emerging.
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And extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First
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Nation peoples around the globe.
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Today I'm speaking with
Dr. Simon Longstaff.
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Simon began his working life on Groot
Island in Northern Territory Australia.
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Simon is proud of his kinship
ties with the Anindilyakwa people.
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After a period of studying law in
Sydney and teaching in Tasmania, he
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pursued postgraduate studies as a member
of the Mortal and College Cambridge.
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In 1991, simon commenced his
work as the first executive
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director of the Ethics Center.
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I. In 2013, he was made an officer
of the order of Australia for
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distinguished service to the
community through the promotion of
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ethical standards in governance and
business, to improving corporate
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responsibility and to philosophy.
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Simon is an adjunct professor
at the Australian Graduate
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School of Management at UNSW.
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A fellow of CPA Australia, the Royal
Society of New South Wales, and the
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Australian Risk Policy Institute.
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Thank you so much for actually sparing
the time to be with us today, Simon.
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I. Well, it's lovely to be with you
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now.
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I've been a member of the Ethics
Center for over a year or so now.
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Mm-hmm.
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And I had the opportunity to meet you in
person at one of the Melbourne gatherings.
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I am fascinated to hear about
your ties with the Anindilyakwa
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people of Group Island.
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How did that start?
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Well, when I went to boarding
school, 'cause my mother had
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died when I was very young and.
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I finished school very early.
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I finished when I was 16, and as you
know, going to a private boarding school
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is a very expensive cost for a family,
and so I was told at the end of my
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schooling when 16, that that was it.
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In a sense, my family had given me
all that they were going to give me in
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terms of an investment in my future.
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And anything I was to do from that point
on, which I had to fund myself now, I'd
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kicked around in Outback Queensland in
places like SRA and Tambo and John Deere.
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So I knew how to fence and plow
and muster sheep and sweep the
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board and things like that.
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But I didn't have any really useful
skills that were making me employable.
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So the job I got was as a service
attendant, which is just a big title for
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a cleaner up on Grote Island, which is
a manganese mine, which at that time we
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seen a company called Gemco, owned by BHP.
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And that's where I started.
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Um, actually by the time I
got on the island, I think I'd
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been 17 for three days and.
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That's a very remote part of
Australia, and particularly in the
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mid 1970s, it was a, a place very
vulnerable in one sense because.
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Uh, there were very few services,
uh, in fact there were so little
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government service that you got what
was called a zone allowance to take
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account of the fact that you weren't
getting all of the things normally
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provided by governments to citizens.
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But it was also a bit of a rough
place too, because I. Back then,
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the mine itself was pretty much,
I think it was exclusively men
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working, at least in wages roles.
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There was a pruning operation at a
place called Barumba Bay, which was
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wild as anything you could find.
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And anyway, here I'm a
17-year-old in that I.
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Very grown up world with some skills.
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Yeah.
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That one learns in boarding school
'cause that's where you learn to survive.
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Particularly if you're a little
squeaky person like I was because
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everybody else was 18 and you
know, had beards, things like that.
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Yeah.
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When school was finished and I
was a squeaky little short person.
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Uh, anyway, in that sense of
vulnerability, the aboriginal people
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there, the Anindilyakwa people, a number
of them got to know me and they adopted
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me and I. Adopted me specifically
into the LA clan, and I was given
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an indigenous name and totem and all
the other things that come with that.
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And then the relationship just blossomed.
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And, and, and I, they, there were
a few things they wanted me to do.
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One was to come back there to die.
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I. They felt that there's something
they saw in me or what I could be
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or something of that kind, and they
took a lot of time to teach me how
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to see properly, for example, in the
way they see the world, rather than
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through my conditioned baller eyes
that the kind of the white people and.
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It is a relationship which
is endured for many decades.
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In fact, I'll be back up there in a
few weeks time, and there's still a
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very important piece of business that
has to be done because of my totem.
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It extends from the island and the
archipelago across to the mainland.
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It's one of the stories from the dreaming
that join up, and I'm supposed to
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have two names, one for my island name
and one for my mainland name, and I
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haven't got my mainland name yet, which
means going across to a place called.
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And there's a bit of ceremony
and things like that.
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And there's also a particular
gift that was left to me by
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one of the most influential of
those indigenous men in my life.
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When he died.
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He, he said that there had to be
three bark paintings produced using
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traditional methods of bark and ochre.
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Which are my totem telling
that story for me to have.
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And that's yet to happen and that's
because of, there's a lot of complication
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about who can tell that story, how
it gets produced, and the ceremony
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around me being able to receive it.
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So it's a really fascinating part of life.
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It's been very confronting in some
ways because I had him, you know,
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like major imposter syndrome for
a very long time about how could
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I be accepted into this society.
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With all of its depth and complexity
and it's incredibly complex world,
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and yet have come from no kind
of blood relation or anything.
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And yet, eventually they pressed
upon me so forcefully that I really
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did belong, that I've accepted it,
and every now and then I feel a
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bit of a flaw when I'm out in this
wider world with these kinship ties.
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But I carry them with
me in a very deep way.
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Ever since that moment
when I was taken in.
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And when you say that you learned
how to look at the world through
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their eyes and how they view things,
what is the difference that you see
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between your everyday eyes and, and
when you return to that space, what?
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What is the difference that
you were encouraged to look at?
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I see
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the whole world now as they do.
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I've carried that with me ever since.
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It's a very profound difference and it
explains a lot of things about the kind
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of misunderstandings and clash that
takes place across these two cultures.
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So.
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The way they taught me, they took me to
the end of the ship loading wharf at a
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place called Ali Anangula, and we got
out there and they said, look, we're
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gonna teach you how to see dolphins.
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I thought, well that's okay.
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So they said, can you
see the, the dolphins?
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Like you say bungee, you know, kinda like
brother friend, can you see the dolphins?
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And I looked down, I said,
no, I can't see the dolphins.
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They said, have a long look.
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See if you can see the dolphins.
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So I looked down and I said
to, can you see the dolphins?
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I said, no, I can't see the dolphins.
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They said, ah, bungee.
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The problem is, you know,
what you're doing is you're
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trying to see the dolphins.
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Ha.
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And that's the kinda this,
this laughter breaks out.
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It's, it's a really infectious
laughter, like, got you, you fool.
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That sort of thing.
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Anyway, once they'd finished laughing
at me, they said, yeah, the problem is
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that the baller way of seeing things is
that you look for the dolphins in the
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water as things that are in the water.
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So the way I would distinguish this
is that I'd been brought up to see
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things either in or on or beside.
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There's a discreet object that might
be a cup sitting on a table, and
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they said, that's not how you see.
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They said, what we see is we see patterns.
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Everything's all one thing, and
there's a pattern that's made by a.
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The water without a dolphin.
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And there's another pattern,
which is with the dolphins in it.
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And what you've gotta do
is see the whole thing.
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And I've talked to other
indigenous people around Australia.
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I'm not sure if I've had many
conversations about this with
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indigenous people I know overseas,
but certainly in Australia.
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And this is something which seems to
be common, that, you know, you spot
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a, a kangaroo not by looking for the
kangaroo, but by the pattern that
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such a thing makes in the world.
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And so it is.
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A really holistic way of seeing, and I,
I was actually, I didn't realize how much
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this had affected me until I was doing
an interview with Richard Fidler one day
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for the conversation hour on a BC radio
national, and I was talking about how I.
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So much of what I bring to bear in
the work that I do as a philosopher
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is about spotting patterns.
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And suddenly I thought, oh my God.
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Now that's, where did that come from?
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That came from the lesson I was taught
and which then had to master at the
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end of the war for Ali and Gula and.
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So much of my capacity to be effective
had been on the back of that way to
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see, and so I've brought this much
stronger sense of holistic nature of
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the world, the patterns that it makes.
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I wouldn't be a patch on people who've
lived their whole life doing this.
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I mean, I'm pretty good
at it, but not as good as.
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As the mob he taught me.
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But it's been transformative and I
think that's one of the wonderful gifts
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that the societies that arrived, uh,
and colonized this continent tap into.
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And that's probably the saddest part of.
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What I've seen in my life is that here
I was given this incredible opportunity,
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which demonstrates the generosity of
people to say, come on, be part of this.
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There are things to learn.
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There are things we want to give you,
and this isn't about us versus you.
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It's about what we could all be together.
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And I know it's easy to say that and
it trips off the tongue and people
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dismiss it, but it's actually a
really profound and generous gift,
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which so far has not been taken up.
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And I think that was one of the
tragedies of the debate about the voice.
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People never really understood
that this was not about giving
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something to indigenous people.
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It was actually an offer for us all
to be something better refined in
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some ways by melding together truly
that experience and understanding
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of the 65,000 years or so of.
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Inhabiting this continent and
then what we could also offer,
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but that chance was missed.
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It really was.
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And it's interesting, I had the
privilege of traveling to Newland Boy
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and then further on to Dura Piby and
being on country there due to a family
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reconciliation ceremony that was as
went through an anniversary recently.
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And what struck me about traveling
through that country is that.
205
00:11:37,530 --> 00:11:44,010
There is so much pride in culture and
it really is the embodiment of what
206
00:11:44,010 --> 00:11:49,770
it means to live on country and be
country, and it was really quite a moving
207
00:11:49,770 --> 00:11:52,350
experience for me to be in that area.
208
00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,570
Well, you caught the cadence
of it in the second way.
209
00:11:54,570 --> 00:11:56,490
It's not being on country,
it's being off country.
210
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That's the thing.
211
00:11:57,030 --> 00:11:58,530
Everything is related and so.
212
00:11:59,325 --> 00:12:02,325
As you'd know, I mean, and of course
the mob viewer with her, all part
213
00:12:02,325 --> 00:12:03,735
of joined up coming down to group.
214
00:12:03,735 --> 00:12:06,555
That's where the songlines all
travel, or some of them at least.
215
00:12:07,005 --> 00:12:12,495
And the whole world is broken into
two, two moieties literature and doer,
216
00:12:12,495 --> 00:12:13,935
the white cockatoo, black cockatoo.
217
00:12:13,935 --> 00:12:18,975
And so everybody is literally
related to everything.
218
00:12:19,245 --> 00:12:22,905
And it's not just animals and
plants, although the obvious things.
219
00:12:22,905 --> 00:12:24,045
There's also a connection with.
220
00:12:24,340 --> 00:12:26,980
The country, the rocks, they
carry a kind of significance.
221
00:12:27,790 --> 00:12:30,790
And again, that's that
holistic element to it.
222
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,600
I was recently over in the
foothills of the Andes and they
223
00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:35,710
have something similar there.
224
00:12:35,710 --> 00:12:38,920
The Ware and the Amara people,
they both break the world into
225
00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:40,600
male and female in that case.
226
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,510
So it's, again, there's a kind of duality
of it, but it's all connected together.
227
00:12:43,510 --> 00:12:45,760
It's only, it's a bit
like the yin and yang.
228
00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:46,480
You only get.
229
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,690
The whole by recognizing how these
different elements relate together and
230
00:12:51,690 --> 00:12:55,950
it really is a sense of relationship
rather than seeing earth or country or
231
00:12:55,950 --> 00:13:00,540
whatever as something to be exploited
or a possession, as you know, as you've
232
00:13:00,540 --> 00:13:02,430
experienced, it's much more organic.
233
00:13:02,430 --> 00:13:06,750
And again, you know, some people
I think in the West are fearful of
234
00:13:06,750 --> 00:13:10,530
that because they love the idea of
detachment and being able to bring a
235
00:13:10,530 --> 00:13:12,390
disinterested mind to bear on the world.
236
00:13:12,690 --> 00:13:15,480
And there's something in that, you
know, but also you miss a lot too.
237
00:13:16,170 --> 00:13:22,199
And what struck me when I went to
the Y Carala Art Center up there and
238
00:13:22,469 --> 00:13:26,790
in the museum that they have there,
they have a kinship tree to try and
239
00:13:26,790 --> 00:13:29,819
explain how, how the system works.
240
00:13:29,849 --> 00:13:34,829
Mm. And what strikes me is that really
true, is true that we, we say quite
241
00:13:34,829 --> 00:13:38,819
commonly in a western society, you know,
it does take a community to raise someone.
242
00:13:39,119 --> 00:13:41,435
And when you look at that
kinship tree, it really is.
243
00:13:41,615 --> 00:13:46,595
That because it is not so much thing
as a defined linear hierarchy, but
244
00:13:46,595 --> 00:13:49,325
it really is all about community.
245
00:13:50,375 --> 00:13:50,615
Oh yeah.
246
00:13:50,615 --> 00:13:53,015
And, and look, I'm like
a toddler in that world.
247
00:13:53,015 --> 00:13:57,335
You know, I'm probably reasonably
sophisticated in the main kind of, um,
248
00:13:57,365 --> 00:13:59,135
stream society that I'm in at the moment.
249
00:13:59,135 --> 00:14:04,025
But up there I'm a toddler and it
is just so incredibly sophisticated.
250
00:14:04,025 --> 00:14:04,415
I mean.
251
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,449
Who you are, how you're seen,
how you relate the obligations.
252
00:14:10,199 --> 00:14:11,849
I mean, there are parts
of Australia I think.
253
00:14:12,209 --> 00:14:16,410
Literally where without that sense
of connection, you don't survive.
254
00:14:16,410 --> 00:14:17,219
You can't survive.
255
00:14:17,219 --> 00:14:20,430
And I think that that's probably
affected the country as a whole.
256
00:14:20,430 --> 00:14:24,300
I think there is this general
sense amongst every Australian, no
257
00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:28,290
matter how most recently arrived,
you get the sense that this is
258
00:14:28,290 --> 00:14:30,120
a place that demands community.
259
00:14:30,755 --> 00:14:31,805
In order to flourish.
260
00:14:31,805 --> 00:14:35,015
It's not like other parts of the world
where you can live as an isolated
261
00:14:35,015 --> 00:14:39,665
individual and and probably flourish
because it's such an abundant source
262
00:14:39,665 --> 00:14:45,845
of resources here, there's something
about the way it works that requires
263
00:14:45,845 --> 00:14:48,995
you to be part of something other
and greater than just yourself and
264
00:14:48,995 --> 00:14:53,314
this kinship structure that you saw
outlined on the walls up at your Carla,
265
00:14:53,375 --> 00:14:58,235
that would be capturing something
in an image which is full of depth.
266
00:14:58,235 --> 00:14:58,925
That is.
267
00:14:59,310 --> 00:15:01,441
Almost incomprehensible
unless you live within it.
268
00:15:01,935 --> 00:15:02,385
It is.
269
00:15:02,385 --> 00:15:07,875
And what struck me is that the way
in which you would meet people on a
270
00:15:07,875 --> 00:15:13,215
road and you know the roads are very
long in that area and the way in
271
00:15:13,215 --> 00:15:17,745
which they would introduce themselves
is by relation to who was the elder
272
00:15:17,745 --> 00:15:21,315
that they were a niece of or, or what
we would term what would be a niece.
273
00:15:21,615 --> 00:15:22,755
And it was just amazing.
274
00:15:22,755 --> 00:15:23,295
It was like.
275
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,100
The way in which they talk
about it is that connection
276
00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:28,410
through family and kinship.
277
00:15:28,439 --> 00:15:33,150
And, and it would be like someone you
know down here in Victoria would be
278
00:15:33,150 --> 00:15:37,319
saying, oh, well I live in Frankston,
or I live in Preston, or, and, and
279
00:15:37,319 --> 00:15:39,420
it was just such a different mindset.
280
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,090
And what do you think
we can learn from that?
281
00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:43,290
You've touched a little bit on it, but,
282
00:15:44,010 --> 00:15:46,650
well, I think there's so many
things that we could learn.
283
00:15:46,949 --> 00:15:50,160
I think that notion of the holistic
nature of the world, the sense of
284
00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,130
belonging with rather than dominating.
285
00:15:53,895 --> 00:15:54,195
Over.
286
00:15:54,765 --> 00:15:59,025
I think positioning ourselves
in relationship to other people
287
00:15:59,325 --> 00:16:00,975
is a really interesting thing.
288
00:16:00,975 --> 00:16:06,250
So you don't define yourself by
the suburb you live in or your job.
289
00:16:06,810 --> 00:16:12,390
I. But how you are in relationship to
others, I think that's a powerful idea.
290
00:16:12,510 --> 00:16:14,070
And it's not unique to this country.
291
00:16:14,070 --> 00:16:18,086
I mean, lots of people will tell you
about their, their family community, and
292
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:23,940
my mother-in-law, she's from Tasmania, as
all of that fa side of the family is, and
293
00:16:23,940 --> 00:16:27,150
she is from the northeast of Tasmania.
294
00:16:27,705 --> 00:16:33,015
And she has the same kind of genealogical
brain, which you mention a person's name
295
00:16:33,015 --> 00:16:38,055
and she will tell you, and she's 92 at
the moment, and sharp as attack, exactly
296
00:16:38,475 --> 00:16:42,075
how they're all connected, what the
relationships are and things of that kind.
297
00:16:42,075 --> 00:16:47,715
So it's a really similar approach where
the families there, at least as she was
298
00:16:47,715 --> 00:16:53,445
growing up and has continued to live, see
all of these connections that exist and.
299
00:16:54,390 --> 00:16:59,250
I think it's just that on
steroids, as they say, for at
300
00:16:59,250 --> 00:17:00,689
least the mob I know about.
301
00:17:00,689 --> 00:17:05,700
So I wouldn't be wanting to generalize
for everybody, but that's how they go.
302
00:17:05,849 --> 00:17:10,200
And the other thing about it too is a
very interesting structure in politics
303
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,149
about who gets to speak with authority.
304
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:18,780
So in that part of the world, and I
think it is fairly commonly the case.
305
00:17:19,724 --> 00:17:23,625
The only people who can speak for country
are those who've got that connection.
306
00:17:23,625 --> 00:17:25,935
And it's typically divided into two ways.
307
00:17:25,935 --> 00:17:29,955
There's a group whose country it is,
and then there are, within that country,
308
00:17:29,955 --> 00:17:34,815
various sacred sites who are overlooked,
supervised, cared for by another group.
309
00:17:34,815 --> 00:17:38,205
So there's this balancing
that's always going on, but.
310
00:17:38,465 --> 00:17:40,685
There isn't any higher authority.
311
00:17:40,685 --> 00:17:44,705
It's not as if you go up in the local
council or the state government or
312
00:17:44,705 --> 00:17:48,215
the territory government, or the
federal government has authority.
313
00:17:48,365 --> 00:17:53,765
It's always intensely local because
of these connections, and that's a way
314
00:17:53,765 --> 00:17:55,945
we, I. Don't typically think about.
315
00:17:55,945 --> 00:18:00,325
There is a parallel in Europe, so there's
a principle called subsidiarity, which
316
00:18:00,325 --> 00:18:05,275
actually grew out of the social teachings
of an earlier pope in the Catholic church
317
00:18:05,275 --> 00:18:06,775
and was taken up by the European Union.
318
00:18:06,775 --> 00:18:10,585
And basically the idea of that is
you have authority at the lowest
319
00:18:10,585 --> 00:18:15,355
possible level and you only escalate
things when that level cannot cope
320
00:18:15,355 --> 00:18:16,710
with the issues that are presenting.
321
00:18:16,915 --> 00:18:19,825
To them, and then it goes up
a notch and then up a notch
322
00:18:19,825 --> 00:18:22,014
so that you force things down.
323
00:18:22,014 --> 00:18:28,075
So local community and that, that's really
a much later innovation coming out of the
324
00:18:28,075 --> 00:18:33,325
Catholic church in Europe that had been
in place for millennia, I mean, tens of
325
00:18:33,325 --> 00:18:35,004
thousands of years here in this continent.
326
00:18:35,635 --> 00:18:36,955
Wow, that's fascinating.
327
00:18:37,375 --> 00:18:42,115
And you mentioned that
you've been invited to die.
328
00:18:42,175 --> 00:18:42,445
Mm-hmm.
329
00:18:43,110 --> 00:18:44,700
Back there on country.
330
00:18:45,330 --> 00:18:49,620
What does that look like and is
that something that, that you have
331
00:18:49,620 --> 00:18:50,790
talked about with your family?
332
00:18:50,790 --> 00:18:50,880
Mm-hmm.
333
00:18:51,630 --> 00:18:51,870
Yep.
334
00:18:52,380 --> 00:18:57,030
So what we've worked out is if I don't
happen to be there to die, then at least
335
00:18:57,030 --> 00:19:01,350
a fair chunk of my ashes or my remains
in that sense, which is practically
336
00:19:01,350 --> 00:19:03,720
gonna have to be ashes are sent up there.
337
00:19:04,635 --> 00:19:08,475
And the ideal, of course, from their
point of view is that I'd be there.
338
00:19:08,775 --> 00:19:12,915
And that's because there's a process
which I'm not sure of, I, I don't
339
00:19:12,915 --> 00:19:15,375
think I can talk about it, which
I know about of course, which is
340
00:19:15,375 --> 00:19:20,415
the app process of transformation
that takes place to you, to you.
341
00:19:20,415 --> 00:19:24,735
And it's very specific and it's
very much associated with places
342
00:19:25,095 --> 00:19:29,325
and journeys and transformation and.
343
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:34,560
For whatever reason, and it's one of the
great honors of my life, even when I was a
344
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:40,530
kid, that group of older men saw something
in me that they thought ought to be part
345
00:19:40,530 --> 00:19:43,470
of the continuing life of that world.
346
00:19:43,890 --> 00:19:44,400
Sort of hope.
347
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:49,410
I haven't disappointed as to that, but
I still go up and still get welcome.
348
00:19:49,410 --> 00:19:54,300
So I think it's okay, but it's
a complete worldview that.
349
00:19:55,439 --> 00:20:00,330
He's very spiritual and very
deep, and that's what I know I
350
00:20:00,330 --> 00:20:01,649
need to be part of when I die.
351
00:20:02,399 --> 00:20:06,960
And tell me, given that you know, the,
that there's a way in which you've,
352
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,950
you've been raised in this community,
you were saying that you've only
353
00:20:10,950 --> 00:20:13,139
recently realized just how much that.
354
00:20:13,475 --> 00:20:16,775
That background has
influenced your life now.
355
00:20:17,375 --> 00:20:21,995
What are some of the other things
that you carry with you today that
356
00:20:22,055 --> 00:20:24,245
in the work that you do from them?
357
00:20:24,425 --> 00:20:25,115
From the mob?
358
00:20:25,775 --> 00:20:26,165
Yeah.
359
00:20:26,855 --> 00:20:30,185
Oh, I think, I think it's
probably all summed up.
360
00:20:30,275 --> 00:20:33,095
I mean, I say recently, it's about
a decade since I've tweaked it.
361
00:20:33,095 --> 00:20:36,665
This I was a bit slow, but I think it's
probably all summed up in that, that sense
362
00:20:36,665 --> 00:20:38,615
of wholeness and pattern and relationship.
363
00:20:40,055 --> 00:20:40,565
I mean, I carry.
364
00:20:41,370 --> 00:20:45,690
I carry things that take place in my dream
world, like I dream still being up there.
365
00:20:45,690 --> 00:20:50,490
And occasionally I have these really
inexplicable moments when I've dreamt
366
00:20:50,490 --> 00:20:53,400
something and I'll phone someone
there and they've had the same dream.
367
00:20:53,790 --> 00:20:54,600
That's amazing.
368
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:54,660
Now
369
00:20:54,870 --> 00:20:58,020
tell me what it means, what was
going on and what I was seeing.
370
00:20:58,590 --> 00:21:00,415
And that's someone from
community that you bring in.
371
00:21:00,415 --> 00:21:00,815
Yeah, absolutely.
372
00:21:00,815 --> 00:21:00,975
Yeah.
373
00:21:00,975 --> 00:21:01,095
Yeah.
374
00:21:01,110 --> 00:21:03,960
I mean, the last time it happened
there were, I was found myself
375
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:08,850
wandering along in a grassy country
as part of a group, and there were
376
00:21:08,940 --> 00:21:13,170
the men with, they were claim carrying
torches that were on fire, like a
377
00:21:13,170 --> 00:21:15,420
fire stick, and there was some water.
378
00:21:15,420 --> 00:21:20,175
Anyway, I phoned this fellow from
the LAN and I said, I. Because
379
00:21:20,175 --> 00:21:23,505
whenever I have these sort of drill,
I think I better, it's like a signal.
380
00:21:23,505 --> 00:21:24,735
Get in touch, something's happening.
381
00:21:25,935 --> 00:21:28,785
And so I've only said, oh,
I, I had the same drill.
382
00:21:28,785 --> 00:21:29,805
I'll tell you who those men were.
383
00:21:29,805 --> 00:21:32,130
And he named them and he, wow.
384
00:21:32,430 --> 00:21:34,305
He was, he told me what it was all about.
385
00:21:34,755 --> 00:21:39,195
So I mean, that's, that's the kind of
thing where your rational mind about,
386
00:21:40,065 --> 00:21:44,775
well, everything can be explained
by breaking it down into its parts.
387
00:21:45,555 --> 00:21:47,985
It's defeated by that experience.
388
00:21:48,389 --> 00:21:52,770
It just makes you wonder more
about the nature of reality and,
389
00:21:53,010 --> 00:21:56,129
and different dimensions of what
you experienced in the course of
390
00:21:56,129 --> 00:21:57,270
a life, and of course, people who.
391
00:21:58,034 --> 00:22:01,425
I very religious, have probably had
similar experiences, which they find
392
00:22:01,425 --> 00:22:03,435
hard to explain in rational terms.
393
00:22:04,125 --> 00:22:10,815
For me, it pops up in those ways
and you know, I have to take, no
394
00:22:10,815 --> 00:22:13,935
matter how skeptical I am, I have
to take the evidence before me
395
00:22:13,935 --> 00:22:16,245
of this happening and, and say,
okay, well what do I make of that?
396
00:22:16,245 --> 00:22:19,605
Along with the other stories I
hear about quite extraordinary
397
00:22:19,605 --> 00:22:20,955
things that are part of that world.
398
00:22:21,310 --> 00:22:26,200
There is, um, you know, we, we know that
there's only a certain percentage of the
399
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,740
brain in which we have been able to map
and have been able to understand, and
400
00:22:29,740 --> 00:22:35,200
I've only recently had an interview with
a neuroscientist about, you know, where
401
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:40,330
do we actually define the area for where
we, you know, become conscious and our
402
00:22:40,330 --> 00:22:43,120
consciousness and who we are as a person.
403
00:22:43,645 --> 00:22:46,315
And we know that, that people,
you know, when they're nearing
404
00:22:46,315 --> 00:22:51,145
death have visions and experience
those, those sorts of experiences.
405
00:22:51,205 --> 00:22:56,035
And then also we know that people have,
when they've had a near-death experience
406
00:22:56,035 --> 00:23:00,775
and they've come back, there is very
similar stories in which they say
407
00:23:00,775 --> 00:23:04,795
about being on a precipice and making a
decision about whether they stay or go.
408
00:23:04,795 --> 00:23:07,675
So there is so much I think,
that we don't know, but.
409
00:23:09,135 --> 00:23:13,095
With the work that you do now, has
your strong sense, the sense of
410
00:23:13,095 --> 00:23:15,285
ethics and what's morally right?
411
00:23:15,585 --> 00:23:19,695
Do you think that that's been formed
from that, that background and that
412
00:23:20,595 --> 00:23:23,955
that's not the dominant formation?
413
00:23:23,955 --> 00:23:28,875
I think that probably that
curiosity about things really, and.
414
00:23:29,370 --> 00:23:31,680
And a sense of justice
and why did things happen?
415
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:32,880
That was probably already in me.
416
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,520
And it may even be what
it was that they spotted.
417
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:36,780
'cause they've got x-ray vision.
418
00:23:36,810 --> 00:23:36,870
Yeah.
419
00:23:36,870 --> 00:23:41,485
They can sort of see inside you in a
way that, um, it's quite, that you can't
420
00:23:41,605 --> 00:23:41,685
yourself,
421
00:23:42,015 --> 00:23:43,740
which is quite challenging sometimes.
422
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:45,630
But, uh, again, I shouldn't generalize.
423
00:23:45,630 --> 00:23:48,600
But anyway, that's been my experience
of some remarkable insights.
424
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,040
But I don't think it's.
425
00:23:50,065 --> 00:23:52,105
That what I do is the sum total of that.
426
00:23:52,105 --> 00:23:55,855
I think it's an important part of
an amalgam of different things which
427
00:23:56,455 --> 00:24:00,895
range from those experiences through
to implications of what it means
428
00:24:00,895 --> 00:24:05,095
when as a child your mother dies when
you're seven, and how that came about.
429
00:24:05,095 --> 00:24:09,865
And then philosophical training
in places like Cambridge and
430
00:24:09,865 --> 00:24:11,605
then like lots of other stuff.
431
00:24:11,605 --> 00:24:12,505
I mean, I just think that.
432
00:24:13,230 --> 00:24:18,930
Whoever you are at any point in time is
the sum total of all of those experiences.
433
00:24:19,260 --> 00:24:21,810
Some you might have preferred not
to have had, but you can't sort
434
00:24:21,810 --> 00:24:22,950
of cherry pick from your life.
435
00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:27,480
You can't say, oh, I only want all
the fun bits and none of the tough
436
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,470
bits, because you wouldn't be you
without that total amalgam bringing
437
00:24:31,470 --> 00:24:36,420
about the unique perspective that you
hold at any point in time as a person.
438
00:24:37,050 --> 00:24:37,260
So.
439
00:24:38,115 --> 00:24:40,455
I think it's lots of things,
but that's one of them.
440
00:24:40,455 --> 00:24:45,675
But you know, it was working with, you
know, people in the mining sector and,
441
00:24:45,675 --> 00:24:49,875
and becoming a paramedic and having
someone die under my own hands when
442
00:24:49,875 --> 00:24:53,085
I was still 17 because there wasn't
a doctor and we couldn't save them.
443
00:24:53,085 --> 00:24:56,925
And putting somebody's body in a body bag
and putting it over your shoulder and.
444
00:24:57,645 --> 00:25:01,005
Putting it in a cool room so that it
can be, you know, there to be taken
445
00:25:01,005 --> 00:25:02,805
out on the air ambulance the next day.
446
00:25:03,195 --> 00:25:05,655
There's these things that
happen becoming apparent.
447
00:25:05,655 --> 00:25:09,315
You know, it's a, so many things
make me up now as to how I do
448
00:25:09,315 --> 00:25:10,635
my work and what influences it.
449
00:25:11,010 --> 00:25:17,280
And when it, when we talk about your
work, there is a lot of ethics around
450
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,060
death and choice, and let's have
a little bit of a chat about that.
451
00:25:21,210 --> 00:25:26,100
So we hear a lot about the good
death, you know, and, and what
452
00:25:26,100 --> 00:25:28,080
people see as a good death.
453
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,000
But does a good death necessarily
mean an ethical death?
454
00:25:33,450 --> 00:25:37,200
Well, the first thing is I think of a
good death as being part of a good life.
455
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:38,400
I don't think it's.
456
00:25:38,820 --> 00:25:39,930
A separate thing.
457
00:25:39,990 --> 00:25:44,670
I think the good life well lived
leads to and includes a good death.
458
00:25:44,970 --> 00:25:48,660
And I think a good death would
include being able to die without
459
00:25:48,690 --> 00:25:50,130
terrible regrets or guilt.
460
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:55,230
So in that sense, if you can look back
on your life presented to you in its
461
00:25:55,230 --> 00:25:59,040
entirety and die without regret or guilt.
462
00:25:59,380 --> 00:26:04,180
Then I think that is a better death, if
you like, than the alternative, which is
463
00:26:04,180 --> 00:26:07,990
a person looking back and says, oh my God,
how did I become the person who did that?
464
00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:11,500
And I'm not here talking about the kind
of existential terror that might come
465
00:26:11,500 --> 00:26:14,830
from a person who believes that they're
going to go to hell or go through a
466
00:26:14,830 --> 00:26:18,550
reincarnation process and come back
as a tick or something like that.
467
00:26:18,610 --> 00:26:21,220
I mean, I'm thinking more about.
468
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:26,699
The intrinsic nature of the life you've
lived, which presents itself to you at
469
00:26:26,699 --> 00:26:30,885
a point in time where there is nothing
you can do to make redress that you are,
470
00:26:30,885 --> 00:26:33,060
you are right at that point of ending.
471
00:26:33,689 --> 00:26:39,600
And so if I had a choice, which of course
all of us do, I'd be trying to set up for
472
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:46,080
a life where that passage through life to
whatever comes, whether it's nothing or
473
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,770
something at the end of that, didn't have.
474
00:26:50,295 --> 00:26:55,155
Accompanying it, the kind of or
remorse that others might suffer.
475
00:26:55,995 --> 00:26:59,625
And do you think that we have a
moral obligation to our loved ones
476
00:26:59,625 --> 00:27:08,025
to try and make that process as, as
seamless or as streamlined as possible?
477
00:27:08,475 --> 00:27:12,045
Not at the expense of truth
or not at its expense?
478
00:27:12,045 --> 00:27:15,225
Maybe I've refined that a bit
to finding the right balance
479
00:27:15,225 --> 00:27:16,575
between truth and compassion.
480
00:27:17,625 --> 00:27:19,185
I mean, saying.
481
00:27:19,725 --> 00:27:21,825
Of a person ending their life.
482
00:27:21,825 --> 00:27:24,375
Well, we're gonna pretend your
life was something other than it
483
00:27:24,375 --> 00:27:31,575
was just so you don't have the
inconvenience of a troubled death.
484
00:27:32,655 --> 00:27:35,865
I can understand why a person
you love, you might say, oh, I'll
485
00:27:35,865 --> 00:27:38,175
spare them what I can from that.
486
00:27:38,685 --> 00:27:41,685
But I also think if a good death is
part of a good life, it needs to be
487
00:27:41,685 --> 00:27:43,515
informed by the life you've actually led.
488
00:27:43,725 --> 00:27:45,555
Not a mythic recreation of it.
489
00:27:46,545 --> 00:27:48,225
And so I'm not quite sure how you do this.
490
00:27:48,255 --> 00:27:52,395
I think it's a kind of a challenge for
any of us if you're there by a person
491
00:27:52,395 --> 00:27:58,125
as they're dying, that they be accorded
the dignity to recognize the life lived
492
00:27:58,125 --> 00:28:04,425
as it was, rather than a convenient
recreation that spares some of that
493
00:28:04,425 --> 00:28:08,535
brittleness that might come at a moment
when you stare back at your life and
494
00:28:08,535 --> 00:28:09,765
say, oh, that's what it really was.
495
00:28:10,305 --> 00:28:14,550
And I, I wonder perhaps even
if you would love to be.
496
00:28:15,284 --> 00:28:19,274
Let off the hook that your life presents,
whether or not you'd feel, in some sense
497
00:28:19,274 --> 00:28:24,284
diminished by a loved one who refuses
to acknowledge you as you truly are.
498
00:28:24,435 --> 00:28:27,585
There's a question of dignity in
that somewhere I think about if
499
00:28:27,585 --> 00:28:31,995
I am respected in terms of the
intrinsic dignity I hold as a person.
500
00:28:31,995 --> 00:28:40,485
Does that not entail that when I am at the
end, I'm not being lied to or manipulated
501
00:28:40,485 --> 00:28:43,034
or treated as someone who can be fooled?
502
00:28:43,439 --> 00:28:44,879
Even if it's well intentioned.
503
00:28:45,629 --> 00:28:49,350
In other words, is there a way to
bring compassion to bear that even if
504
00:28:49,350 --> 00:28:54,929
the truth is a hard truth, it's not
eliminated, but it's brought into the
505
00:28:54,929 --> 00:28:59,520
light in a way which is with love and
compassion for the errors that have been
506
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,090
made and for the things that might've
been done less well than otherwise.
507
00:29:03,929 --> 00:29:08,520
And is that where the balance lies, that
you live with the truth, but with the
508
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,419
compassion for yourself, which others
bring to you as you face the truth?
509
00:29:13,155 --> 00:29:18,675
Do you think that to achieve
that, that we really should be
510
00:29:18,675 --> 00:29:22,335
having these conversations earlier
on before we get to that point?
511
00:29:22,754 --> 00:29:22,995
Mm-hmm.
512
00:29:23,685 --> 00:29:26,850
Well, I think so, although it's, it's
a bit harder because you mean if you,
513
00:29:27,070 --> 00:29:31,665
if you have it too early, you've got
a runway of guilt, despair, because if
514
00:29:31,665 --> 00:29:35,295
people don't forgive you, you got a long
time to think about the consequences.
515
00:29:35,865 --> 00:29:38,355
I, I think it's challenging
thing, I mean, there.
516
00:29:38,830 --> 00:29:42,520
We probably all carry with US secrets,
things that have happened to us
517
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,090
or that we've done, which we don't
necessarily wanna blurt out to the world.
518
00:29:46,270 --> 00:29:50,440
And you might choose to live your
life where even at the end you carry
519
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:51,910
with you your knowledge of self.
520
00:29:51,910 --> 00:29:51,940
I.
521
00:29:52,695 --> 00:29:56,175
Without presenting it to the world,
which is different to when somebody
522
00:29:56,175 --> 00:30:00,105
else presents a lie to you about what
your, you've been in the world that I, I
523
00:30:00,105 --> 00:30:04,935
think you can, you can carry a degree of
confidential information secrets about
524
00:30:04,935 --> 00:30:08,055
your own life, which you might do for
your own self-protection, but also it
525
00:30:08,055 --> 00:30:11,655
could be out of a regard for others that
you don't wanna lay on them a burden
526
00:30:11,655 --> 00:30:14,865
which they then have to carry because you
found it too inconvenient to reach the
527
00:30:14,865 --> 00:30:17,445
end carrying that burden for yourself.
528
00:30:17,805 --> 00:30:20,595
So yes, you could do a lot more.
529
00:30:21,105 --> 00:30:25,185
But I don't think I would want to
advocate that a good life leading
530
00:30:25,185 --> 00:30:29,415
to a good death is based on radical
transparency, where everything's blurted
531
00:30:29,415 --> 00:30:34,125
out without a proper regard for its
implications for those whom you love.
532
00:30:34,665 --> 00:30:38,775
I think if you love someone, you should
be able to curb what you need to do.
533
00:30:38,775 --> 00:30:41,475
Even sometimes if you think it would
make you feel better just to get
534
00:30:41,475 --> 00:30:45,165
it all off your chest, if to do so,
would be destructive for others.
535
00:30:45,495 --> 00:30:47,685
And again, that's where this
balance between truth and compassion
536
00:30:47,685 --> 00:30:49,065
has to be taken into account.
537
00:30:49,860 --> 00:30:50,939
Yeah, that's lovely.
538
00:30:50,939 --> 00:30:51,719
And it is.
539
00:30:52,830 --> 00:30:54,179
It is compassion, isn't it?
540
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,740
Well, if you love someone, or even
if you don't know them well enough to
541
00:30:58,740 --> 00:31:02,939
love, but you respect their intrinsic
dignity, whichever side of the
542
00:31:02,939 --> 00:31:07,709
equation you are on, you shouldn't be
recklessly indifferent about how you.
543
00:31:08,190 --> 00:31:09,450
Engage with the world.
544
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:14,460
Even when you've got a great good
like truth at hand, it rarely stands
545
00:31:14,460 --> 00:31:18,600
in stark contrast to everything
else as if nothing else matters.
546
00:31:19,170 --> 00:31:23,640
There are lots of ways by which the
truth can be delivered, which are more
547
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:28,830
compassionate than others, and it's
about asking yourself in conditions
548
00:31:28,830 --> 00:31:30,105
where you love or respect people.
549
00:31:30,525 --> 00:31:34,890
Do I take the extra effort to do that in
the most compassionate way, knowing that?
550
00:31:35,655 --> 00:31:38,745
The effect of this truth will
be to change the world and for
551
00:31:38,745 --> 00:31:40,065
some people to make it harder.
552
00:31:40,995 --> 00:31:43,410
That's a really interesting
way of looking at it and.
553
00:31:44,430 --> 00:31:48,030
Moving on to a, an issue that is
quite challenging, and I think that
554
00:31:48,570 --> 00:31:52,920
with voluntary assisted dying, we
have seen that legalized in, in most
555
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:58,050
states of Australia with it coming
into Canberra in November of this year.
556
00:31:58,050 --> 00:32:02,490
But still, Northern Territory is, is
yet to actually go through that process.
557
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:03,990
There's a lot of.
558
00:32:04,075 --> 00:32:06,715
You know, misconception, uh, myth.
559
00:32:06,925 --> 00:32:10,855
There's also been gag orders around
what medical professionals can and
560
00:32:10,855 --> 00:32:12,745
can't say in relation to the issue.
561
00:32:13,315 --> 00:32:17,215
What do you see as the, the ethical
complexities about, you know,
562
00:32:17,605 --> 00:32:21,655
voluntary assisted dying and the
people that go through it, and also
563
00:32:21,655 --> 00:32:24,955
for those that are surrounding their
loved one, that make that choice?
564
00:32:25,274 --> 00:32:29,655
Well, it's a, it, it is a genuinely
complex matter and it touches very
565
00:32:29,655 --> 00:32:33,435
deeply to some people, and it's often
plagued by confusion, some of which
566
00:32:33,435 --> 00:32:36,135
is deliberately so, so you'll hear.
567
00:32:36,855 --> 00:32:40,335
Some people, even occasionally,
advocates for voluntary assisted
568
00:32:40,335 --> 00:32:44,505
dying, use that term interchangeably
with euthanasia, although they're
569
00:32:44,505 --> 00:32:45,855
radically different things.
570
00:32:46,095 --> 00:32:50,115
I mean, euthanasia is about you
choosing to end another person's
571
00:32:50,115 --> 00:32:52,335
life with a merciful intent to.
572
00:32:52,774 --> 00:32:54,605
Relieve something of their condition.
573
00:32:54,905 --> 00:32:58,205
Whereas voluntary assisted dying is
completely different because it's
574
00:32:58,205 --> 00:33:02,524
the individual themselves choosing
to end their life under conditions
575
00:33:02,524 --> 00:33:06,274
where they prevent or alleviate
otherwise unachievable suffering.
576
00:33:06,995 --> 00:33:12,139
And the core ethical issue here is to
do with the nature of suffering now.
577
00:33:12,145 --> 00:33:16,534
Now I have not yet come
across any culture.
578
00:33:16,949 --> 00:33:21,300
Nor religion that celebrates
suffering as something which is
579
00:33:21,300 --> 00:33:23,250
intrinsically good in itself.
580
00:33:23,550 --> 00:33:24,780
I just don't know of it.
581
00:33:24,899 --> 00:33:30,989
I do know of some religions in which
unavoidable suffering may be a source for
582
00:33:30,989 --> 00:33:38,909
strength or personal growth or whatever,
but the idea that suffering is a good, in
583
00:33:38,909 --> 00:33:41,610
and of itself is not something I know of.
584
00:33:41,610 --> 00:33:44,699
And if I think it did exist, it
would be a kind of perverse view.
585
00:33:45,419 --> 00:33:49,725
Instead, I. There are people who might
see that suffering becomes necessary
586
00:33:49,725 --> 00:33:52,965
in some circumstances because you have
an unavoidable obligation or whatever,
587
00:33:52,965 --> 00:33:56,895
but not that it's good that it is by
itself an evil which might be endured.
588
00:33:57,254 --> 00:34:01,395
And when you start on that basis
and say, well, actually suffering
589
00:34:01,395 --> 00:34:04,575
is i'll, I'll use it in the
philosophical rather than theological
590
00:34:04,575 --> 00:34:05,955
or in a physical sense of evil.
591
00:34:06,225 --> 00:34:10,605
So evil and good and bad, or
evil as it used to be called.
592
00:34:11,085 --> 00:34:14,235
Like if a tree falls over in a storm
and breaks your car or something, that
593
00:34:14,235 --> 00:34:16,094
would be considered an evil, not a that.
594
00:34:16,094 --> 00:34:18,764
You don't have to have demonic
forces and things like that, but
595
00:34:18,764 --> 00:34:20,384
some people important to that idea.
596
00:34:20,985 --> 00:34:23,654
So in the old traditional idea,
if suffering is something bad.
597
00:34:23,855 --> 00:34:29,855
Then it's a perfectly reasonable thing
to say that it should be prevented or
598
00:34:29,855 --> 00:34:36,035
limited where possible, and it may not be
the case that we can intervene in order to
599
00:34:36,185 --> 00:34:40,415
end the life of another person mercifully,
to bring about their suffering.
600
00:34:40,415 --> 00:34:43,745
Although some people argue that there will
be cases where that might be necessary,
601
00:34:43,745 --> 00:34:47,045
and I've had interesting conversations
even with Catholic priests, where they've
602
00:34:47,045 --> 00:34:51,365
said, in that case, I would, I would
stop the suffering and live with that.
603
00:34:52,230 --> 00:34:53,550
But this is the different case.
604
00:34:53,550 --> 00:34:58,170
This is, I am saying I have reached
the end of what I am wanting to
605
00:34:58,170 --> 00:34:59,760
tolerate by way of suffering.
606
00:35:00,060 --> 00:35:02,970
If you like, all of the opportunity
for growth or whatever people think
607
00:35:02,970 --> 00:35:04,770
might come from it as being exhausted.
608
00:35:05,460 --> 00:35:07,890
I'm just being completely shredded.
609
00:35:08,550 --> 00:35:12,360
My own sense of self is being
destroyed by this, and there is nothing
610
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:13,650
that can be done other than this.
611
00:35:13,650 --> 00:35:17,040
You know, there's, there's
no palliative solution there,
612
00:35:17,250 --> 00:35:18,450
and this is where I've got to.
613
00:35:20,130 --> 00:35:23,640
Of course, I think, and I believe
that's why voluntary assisted
614
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:24,900
dying should be supported.
615
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:30,450
Now, there are some risks, of course,
that a person might be railroaded into
616
00:35:30,450 --> 00:35:34,560
a decision for reasons which are nothing
to do with their wellbeing and the,
617
00:35:34,740 --> 00:35:36,840
you know, final end to their suffering.
618
00:35:37,485 --> 00:35:42,225
And it could be that they are
not making a sound judgment.
619
00:35:42,495 --> 00:35:46,725
And so this is why there are so many
hedges, if you like, around the whole
620
00:35:46,725 --> 00:35:50,985
process that as far as possible,
this has gotta be a genuine act of
621
00:35:50,985 --> 00:35:56,835
informed consent, free prior informed
consent, and anybody who is seeking to
622
00:35:56,835 --> 00:35:58,875
pressure a person to end their life.
623
00:35:59,700 --> 00:36:03,149
At an earlier point than when
they're ready because they anticipate
624
00:36:03,149 --> 00:36:04,440
some benefit flowing from it.
625
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:05,549
And the benefit may not be fine.
626
00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:10,470
Financial might just be, I don't wanna be
the the carer any longer, or I don't want
627
00:36:10,470 --> 00:36:12,299
to have the emotional stress and strain.
628
00:36:12,299 --> 00:36:15,330
I've been on it myself and I know what
it's like, this kind of rollercoaster
629
00:36:15,330 --> 00:36:18,779
when someone is at death store and then
they come back and then you, if you said
630
00:36:18,779 --> 00:36:22,560
goodbye and then they recover and then you
go through it all over again and you know.
631
00:36:23,150 --> 00:36:28,940
I know what that can be for people,
but that's not a good reason for a
632
00:36:28,940 --> 00:36:33,800
person to end their life in order to
save someone else from the discomfort
633
00:36:33,890 --> 00:36:38,270
of the rollercoaster ride that can
happen when life is near the end.
634
00:36:39,050 --> 00:36:45,140
Instead, it's got to be a provision
that society allows for free
635
00:36:45,140 --> 00:36:49,040
prior and informed consent for the
alleviation of suffering that cannot
636
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:50,480
be prevented by any other means.
637
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:51,770
And I think at that point.
638
00:36:52,875 --> 00:36:56,955
So that your death is part of
the good life that you've lived.
639
00:36:57,645 --> 00:37:02,535
Rather than this descent from good life
into a nightmare, that's where we should
640
00:37:02,535 --> 00:37:03,884
be saying, yes, it should be allowed.
641
00:37:04,845 --> 00:37:13,005
And when we think of the rise in relation
to green burials, natural burials, you
642
00:37:13,005 --> 00:37:18,285
know, alternatives to cremation and
conventional burial or traditional burial,
643
00:37:19,095 --> 00:37:21,705
do we have an ethical responsibility to.
644
00:37:22,110 --> 00:37:28,110
Choose more environmentally conscious
decisions or around this and
645
00:37:28,110 --> 00:37:32,550
reduce our impact socially when it
comes to our end of life choices.
646
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,140
Look, I think kind of the ethical
obligations you have are arise
647
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,020
out of a complex set of values and
principles that you'll hold as an
648
00:37:40,020 --> 00:37:40,815
individual, and you've gotta be.
649
00:37:41,530 --> 00:37:46,360
True to yourself, not just following, I
think a moral path where you might just
650
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,210
do things as a matter of habit because
you've been given a moral framework
651
00:37:49,210 --> 00:37:54,100
as a child, or pick one up along the
way, but actually genuinely living the
652
00:37:54,100 --> 00:37:56,200
examined life that Socrates talks about.
653
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,410
So you're really thinking through what
it means to apply those values and
654
00:37:59,410 --> 00:38:01,120
principles in the context of your life.
655
00:38:01,420 --> 00:38:02,500
Now, for some people.
656
00:38:02,850 --> 00:38:07,200
Their religious views are such that
there will be very strongly articulated
657
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,610
rituals to do with how a body should
be disposed of at the point of
658
00:38:11,610 --> 00:38:15,630
death, and often in expectation of
something further that might happen.
659
00:38:15,660 --> 00:38:19,230
So for example, a lot of people,
certainly within the Christian
660
00:38:19,230 --> 00:38:20,610
religion still believe in.
661
00:38:20,690 --> 00:38:22,790
Bodily resurrection at the end of days.
662
00:38:22,790 --> 00:38:27,470
And so they're, they're making preparation
for that as much as they can, and so
663
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,570
others, there'll be rituals of cleansing
to make you fit for whatever comes beyond.
664
00:38:32,570 --> 00:38:39,080
And I wouldn't want to say that because
that uses a bit more carbon or whatever
665
00:38:39,500 --> 00:38:42,530
or space that should be denied.
666
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,860
What I would invite someone to do is
to say, if you're choosing something
667
00:38:46,860 --> 00:38:52,380
which has a larger footprint upon the
planet than alternatives, what can
668
00:38:52,380 --> 00:38:56,730
you do to be mindful of that and how
might you seek to offset that effect?
669
00:38:56,730 --> 00:39:00,780
I. And then there are other people who
say, actually, you know, I'm thinking
670
00:39:00,990 --> 00:39:04,770
of people who've got a very strong
connection to country or whatever,
671
00:39:04,770 --> 00:39:10,260
where there were traditional practices,
which were very low footprint, if
672
00:39:10,260 --> 00:39:15,330
you like, in terms of their impact on
nature, but incredibly rich in spiritual
673
00:39:15,330 --> 00:39:17,925
significance culture, immersed in culture.
674
00:39:19,095 --> 00:39:23,145
Where all of that was sort of
hard baked into what happened.
675
00:39:23,295 --> 00:39:26,685
And then there will be people who
come from different perspectives, say,
676
00:39:26,685 --> 00:39:28,305
actually I want to have a green burial.
677
00:39:28,305 --> 00:39:32,625
And that's the thing I do because
as part of the process by which I
678
00:39:32,625 --> 00:39:37,305
pass from the world into memory,
I want some of the things which I.
679
00:39:37,890 --> 00:39:42,540
If you like, the echoes of my
life that continue beyond my life
680
00:39:43,259 --> 00:39:45,480
to be authentic to who I was.
681
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,840
And so if the environment is
really important, then a green
682
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:50,400
burial is one of those echoes.
683
00:39:50,430 --> 00:39:52,290
It's authentically an echo of that person.
684
00:39:52,950 --> 00:39:54,420
And so that's how I'd
be thinking about it.
685
00:39:54,420 --> 00:39:56,130
I'd allow that flexibility, I think.
686
00:39:56,460 --> 00:40:00,450
But we have to be true to that kind
of mixture of values and principles.
687
00:40:01,140 --> 00:40:04,140
Consciously reflecting on what they
mean and where there is a cost.
688
00:40:04,140 --> 00:40:09,270
Seeking deliberately to offset that cost
so that the thing we prefer isn't being
689
00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:12,120
a burden unreasonably born by others.
690
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:12,180
I.
691
00:40:12,870 --> 00:40:19,560
And as we move into the world of
more dominated by AI and very much
692
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,250
when we, we dive, some of us leave
quite the vast digital footprint.
693
00:40:23,339 --> 00:40:23,399
Hmm.
694
00:40:23,910 --> 00:40:30,024
And sometimes we have left these f. Prince
unknowingly that perhaps somewhere in
695
00:40:30,024 --> 00:40:35,845
the future we may have the ability to,
and sometimes we even do now with grief
696
00:40:35,845 --> 00:40:41,875
bots and recreate our voice, recreate
our image as a means of comforting
697
00:40:41,875 --> 00:40:43,884
our loved ones after we've died.
698
00:40:44,424 --> 00:40:46,944
Where does the ethics sit
in all of that, Simon?
699
00:40:47,424 --> 00:40:51,745
Well, we are, if not already there,
incredibly close to be able to
700
00:40:51,745 --> 00:40:53,604
create a genuine digital twin.
701
00:40:54,660 --> 00:40:55,290
Of any of us.
702
00:40:55,290 --> 00:40:59,490
So I mean, with 30 seconds of voice,
we can replicate my voice, your voice.
703
00:40:59,550 --> 00:41:06,240
We can produce stunningly realistic
images that look like us, um, sound
704
00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:10,890
like us, where all the voice in all the
words, and even ingest everything so
705
00:41:10,890 --> 00:41:15,090
that I've written so that the figure on
the screen would speak as I would speak.
706
00:41:16,529 --> 00:41:21,870
And so that is not actually unlike
what has been done throughout funeral
707
00:41:22,049 --> 00:41:23,220
practices, throughout history.
708
00:41:23,220 --> 00:41:29,879
Death masks in Roman houses of
ancestors, statues, effigies on tombs,
709
00:41:30,540 --> 00:41:35,040
pictures of the dead photographs,
sometimes portraits of other times
710
00:41:35,069 --> 00:41:37,859
that grace homes and mantle pieces.
711
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,850
We've had a tendency to
try and carry the memory.
712
00:41:42,390 --> 00:41:46,320
Of loved ones who've died with us
in many cultures and in many places
713
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,360
over many periods of history.
714
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,830
And so this is, in a
sense, a part of that.
715
00:41:52,950 --> 00:41:56,970
The difficulty is that it's
animated and it behaves as if
716
00:41:57,630 --> 00:42:02,430
it is the person, and that's the
thing, which I think is the risk.
717
00:42:02,819 --> 00:42:06,359
It's a little bit like actually cloning
and the idea that you could take cells
718
00:42:06,359 --> 00:42:12,149
from a person and then implant them
and produce a biological exact copy.
719
00:42:12,569 --> 00:42:16,259
Now that biological exact copy will be
a physical replica of the person who
720
00:42:16,259 --> 00:42:18,839
died, and you can touch them and feel
them and all the rest, but they are
721
00:42:18,839 --> 00:42:20,669
not that person and they never can be.
722
00:42:21,660 --> 00:42:25,049
For reasons which we touched on before
and I was saying how we are the sum total
723
00:42:25,049 --> 00:42:29,700
of all of our experience that makes us
uniquely who we are at any point in time.
724
00:42:30,660 --> 00:42:33,960
And equally, the digital twin
is never me and never can be
725
00:42:33,990 --> 00:42:36,120
because it's frozen in time.
726
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:41,860
I. It lacks and will lack all of the
weird nuances that occur within the human
727
00:42:41,860 --> 00:42:46,870
mind, where completely unrelated things
suddenly come together in an aha moment.
728
00:42:46,870 --> 00:42:51,190
And you change not because of any
external imprint, but because of
729
00:42:51,190 --> 00:42:54,340
something that's taken place within
you, within your consciousness.
730
00:42:54,970 --> 00:42:58,480
And again, the digital twin
will not be doing that for you.
731
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,350
Even if it does a fair simulation
of it, it won't be you and
732
00:43:02,350 --> 00:43:05,410
it won't know one of the most
important things that we all know.
733
00:43:05,860 --> 00:43:08,020
Which it is, what it means to be mortal.
734
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:13,240
You see, when we have our conversations
with each other lurking in the
735
00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:17,140
background, although we don't really
reflect much on it consciously, is
736
00:43:17,140 --> 00:43:18,640
that we all know we're going to die.
737
00:43:19,410 --> 00:43:24,240
So the touch that we put on someone's
shoulder when bad news comes, which is a
738
00:43:24,240 --> 00:43:29,190
consoling touch, is from one being knowing
what it means to be mortal to another, and
739
00:43:29,190 --> 00:43:34,020
you share that even the most convincing
replica cannot offer that because it
740
00:43:34,020 --> 00:43:38,310
does not know and cannot know what it
means to be mortal in the way that we do.
741
00:43:38,310 --> 00:43:40,020
Because we grow out of this world.
742
00:43:40,020 --> 00:43:42,870
We're embodied, we're
analog, and so I think.
743
00:43:43,605 --> 00:43:46,305
They may be a source of remembrance.
744
00:43:46,305 --> 00:43:49,964
They may offer some measure of
consolation, but we always need to be
745
00:43:49,964 --> 00:43:55,605
guarded, whether it's a digital twin
or a clone, but this is in fact not the
746
00:43:55,605 --> 00:44:03,795
person we knew, and they are no more real
than the effigy that lies a top of tomb.
747
00:44:04,904 --> 00:44:08,654
And I suppose you could say the
same about, you know, projects
748
00:44:08,654 --> 00:44:15,195
that involve cryo-preservation and
future reanimation of the body.
749
00:44:15,585 --> 00:44:18,585
Well, that, that, that could be a
bit different because if that is
750
00:44:18,585 --> 00:44:23,565
the analog version of the person
in suspension and they come back
751
00:44:23,565 --> 00:44:27,735
and they are all their quirky self,
fully intact, and I find this.
752
00:44:28,140 --> 00:44:31,980
Difficult to think will happen, but let's
suppose that could happen for the sake of
753
00:44:31,980 --> 00:44:37,350
argument, then they may very well go on to
evolve as a person in relationship, but.
754
00:44:37,755 --> 00:44:41,565
They're a little bit like the thine
coming back to modern Tasmania.
755
00:44:41,895 --> 00:44:46,245
How will they fit within the world
that is so radically different to that
756
00:44:46,245 --> 00:44:47,775
which they left behind the last time?
757
00:44:47,775 --> 00:44:53,759
They were consciously aware as a person,
but I wouldn't rule out, I. That.
758
00:44:53,790 --> 00:44:58,259
Let's suppose everybody had a bit of
a cryo journey where they'd waited
759
00:44:58,259 --> 00:45:01,319
for 200 years and they all wake up
and they sort of pick up where they
760
00:45:01,319 --> 00:45:03,029
left off, then yeah, that's possible.
761
00:45:03,089 --> 00:45:06,660
That's different to the digital twin or
the clone because that person has that
762
00:45:06,660 --> 00:45:10,649
embodied experience within them and maybe.
763
00:45:11,085 --> 00:45:12,645
An authentic self still living.
764
00:45:13,185 --> 00:45:17,535
And would that be the key, the authentic
self and the ability to then draw
765
00:45:17,535 --> 00:45:19,154
on that experience, do you think?
766
00:45:19,575 --> 00:45:24,075
Well, if you are looking at it from the
point of the view of the, the grieving
767
00:45:24,075 --> 00:45:29,055
relative, I suppose that this, this
fanciful account that that is possible,
768
00:45:29,415 --> 00:45:34,000
then you would at least know that the
individual you are encountering again.
769
00:45:34,995 --> 00:45:38,835
Isn't a simulation, it's actually
the person in a new context.
770
00:45:39,375 --> 00:45:42,585
And if that's something which
gives you immense comfort and the
771
00:45:42,585 --> 00:45:46,245
person was up for that particular
journey, then that would be fine.
772
00:45:46,245 --> 00:45:49,424
But that would be very
different to the illusion.
773
00:45:49,964 --> 00:45:53,685
That you might get while seeking comfort
from a digital twin or a, a clone.
774
00:45:54,225 --> 00:45:56,444
No, that's, that's good
to make that distinction.
775
00:45:57,345 --> 00:46:03,944
And I like the fact that you described
then how in our every day and when we,
776
00:46:03,944 --> 00:46:08,504
we comfort and we act at the back of our
mind, we always have our own mortality.
777
00:46:08,995 --> 00:46:12,714
Even though we don't talk about it,
it is always there and it's something
778
00:46:12,714 --> 00:46:17,424
that keeps us quite distinctly
different to other things at times.
779
00:46:18,415 --> 00:46:22,404
What is it that, why do we
desire to live longer and why
780
00:46:22,404 --> 00:46:25,134
do we avoid talking about death?
781
00:46:25,134 --> 00:46:25,795
Do you think?
782
00:46:25,795 --> 00:46:25,855
I.
783
00:46:26,385 --> 00:46:30,975
Well, I don't think everybody aspires
to live longer, and there are some
784
00:46:30,975 --> 00:46:34,455
people who reconcile themselves to the
prospect of death very early in life,
785
00:46:34,455 --> 00:46:38,115
and they're kind of cool with it for
a whole range of different reasons.
786
00:46:38,655 --> 00:46:42,210
But for most of us, I suspect
we, I. We don't wanna miss out.
787
00:46:42,660 --> 00:46:43,410
That's part of it.
788
00:46:43,470 --> 00:46:47,700
On wonderful moments with family
and friends, the kinds of things
789
00:46:47,700 --> 00:46:50,220
we've enjoyed up until now.
790
00:46:50,850 --> 00:46:54,870
We're probably curious about what the
world has to offer into the future or
791
00:46:55,950 --> 00:46:59,580
we glimpse signs of it and think, wow,
what would be a like to when there's
792
00:46:59,580 --> 00:47:03,810
a colony on Mars or when humans have
moved through the the solar system or
793
00:47:03,810 --> 00:47:05,490
whatever else that's going to happen.
794
00:47:06,810 --> 00:47:10,170
And then I think there's
also this fear that.
795
00:47:10,845 --> 00:47:15,015
The act of death itself will be
painful, that there'll be a terrible
796
00:47:15,015 --> 00:47:17,355
struggle or you'll suffer terribly.
797
00:47:17,355 --> 00:47:20,775
So it's not, maybe for some people, it's
not so much about being dead that they're
798
00:47:20,775 --> 00:47:24,045
worried about as dying a, a painful death.
799
00:47:24,945 --> 00:47:27,825
And then there is another
group that is worried about.
800
00:47:28,245 --> 00:47:33,945
The prospect of non-existence or
the prospect of a, a new existence
801
00:47:33,945 --> 00:47:37,395
in which there's some kind of
terrible penalty to be paid.
802
00:47:37,395 --> 00:47:41,025
So people who believe in things
like hell or whatever would not be
803
00:47:41,025 --> 00:47:42,225
particularly looking forward to death.
804
00:47:42,225 --> 00:47:43,335
If they haven't got a clean sheet.
805
00:47:43,340 --> 00:47:48,585
They, if they can get a clean sheet
from a last moment expiration of sin
806
00:47:48,585 --> 00:47:51,945
or whatever, then maybe they'd be
looking forward to a heavenly future.
807
00:47:52,395 --> 00:47:52,995
And so.
808
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,090
Those people are probably pretty
comfortable about what's to come,
809
00:47:56,150 --> 00:47:57,890
if not the transition process.
810
00:47:58,340 --> 00:47:59,240
But there are those people.
811
00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:02,450
I think that kind of dread, oh,
well I'm gonna stop existing.
812
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:07,940
I'll either dissolve into a universal
sea of being where my own ego will
813
00:48:07,940 --> 00:48:09,890
no longer exist, so it won't be me.
814
00:48:09,890 --> 00:48:12,470
It'll be just part of something huge.
815
00:48:12,710 --> 00:48:16,520
Amorphous other, and there are
others who think there's nothing.
816
00:48:17,205 --> 00:48:19,725
And of course it's a, it's a weird
thing to be afraid of nothing because
817
00:48:19,725 --> 00:48:25,065
there won't be any, you there to be
afraid of it just as there was no,
818
00:48:25,065 --> 00:48:28,335
you there to be afraid of all the
nothing that came before you were born.
819
00:48:28,785 --> 00:48:33,435
So it's really hard to unpack it
because I think the concerns about
820
00:48:33,555 --> 00:48:38,325
death, uh, probably all of those
things and more things than I've
821
00:48:38,325 --> 00:48:39,855
named, and they don't just sit there.
822
00:48:40,845 --> 00:48:45,765
In isolated units, there's mixture of
these things coursing through people
823
00:48:46,305 --> 00:48:51,285
from time to time, various misgivings
concerns, fears that probably play
824
00:48:51,285 --> 00:48:54,615
together to create the overall
level of angst that often exists
825
00:48:54,615 --> 00:48:55,995
when people start to talk about it.
826
00:48:56,384 --> 00:49:02,235
And what role does religion do you
think play in providing a solution or
827
00:49:02,235 --> 00:49:06,315
an afterlife or a comfort, I suppose,
to those people that believe that
828
00:49:06,315 --> 00:49:08,415
there is an afterlife in, in that?
829
00:49:09,029 --> 00:49:10,560
Well, I suppose, I mean,
it does lots of things.
830
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:14,009
Some of them not particularly helpful,
but first of all, it promises you, there
831
00:49:14,009 --> 00:49:20,009
is something more than this life and so
there's a continuation of your existence,
832
00:49:20,009 --> 00:49:25,230
your being in another form, in another
dimension, and so that makes death
833
00:49:25,230 --> 00:49:29,549
something less terrifying because it's not
the end, it's just a period of transition
834
00:49:29,549 --> 00:49:31,470
and, and nature is full of these things.
835
00:49:31,470 --> 00:49:35,160
You know, the grub that becomes a
butterfly, that whole notion of chrysalis
836
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:36,690
turning into something beautiful.
837
00:49:37,635 --> 00:49:41,925
And so if you are hanging on to existence.
838
00:49:42,585 --> 00:49:48,225
In and of itself of being as a good to
which you wish to continue to participate,
839
00:49:48,585 --> 00:49:50,835
then an afterlife is a great idea.
840
00:49:50,835 --> 00:49:54,165
Then it comes the question, well, what do
they do with that idea of an afterlife?
841
00:49:54,525 --> 00:49:57,825
And of course, some religions turn it
into the most terrifying possibilities.
842
00:49:58,005 --> 00:50:02,505
They used to have a kind of lingering
non-existence like limbo, which has now
843
00:50:02,505 --> 00:50:04,155
been dropped from the Catholic cannon.
844
00:50:05,009 --> 00:50:08,009
Then there are some that think
there's this kind of waiting room
845
00:50:08,009 --> 00:50:12,180
called Purgary where you're neither
quite in nor out, but you're
846
00:50:12,180 --> 00:50:14,910
waiting for the judgment to be made.
847
00:50:15,149 --> 00:50:19,200
Then there's hell and it's equivalents,
and then you've got religions that have.
848
00:50:19,755 --> 00:50:23,924
A cycle of reincarnation until
eventually you get off the wheel
849
00:50:23,924 --> 00:50:28,065
through enlightenment and some of
those turns of the wheel can be pretty
850
00:50:28,065 --> 00:50:32,145
bad for you if you've been picking up
your karmic debt on the next ground.
851
00:50:32,805 --> 00:50:35,625
And so they kind of give
you the consolation of a
852
00:50:35,625 --> 00:50:37,605
future life and some of them.
853
00:50:38,759 --> 00:50:44,339
Taint it with some pretty serious reasons
to not be looking forward to it unless
854
00:50:44,339 --> 00:50:46,380
you have played by their rule book.
855
00:50:47,130 --> 00:50:51,180
So if you can live a, an existence, a
perfect existence, free from sin, or if
856
00:50:51,180 --> 00:50:55,710
you can find the grace of forgiveness
at the end, then things will be fine.
857
00:50:55,710 --> 00:50:56,160
But that.
858
00:50:56,605 --> 00:51:00,235
Has also been understood as a way
either of giving you your best
859
00:51:00,235 --> 00:51:04,465
chance at a great afterlife or also
a measure for social control in
860
00:51:04,465 --> 00:51:06,265
order to enforce a particular code.
861
00:51:06,955 --> 00:51:10,045
And depending on your religious
beliefs, it might be one or
862
00:51:10,045 --> 00:51:11,305
the other, or sometimes both.
863
00:51:11,700 --> 00:51:16,830
And moving completely away from
religion and purely on an ethical
864
00:51:16,830 --> 00:51:21,810
question when it comes to suicide,
a topic that's very taboo, we
865
00:51:21,810 --> 00:51:23,819
don't talk about it often enough.
866
00:51:24,750 --> 00:51:29,160
It is a a sad thing that
happens within society.
867
00:51:29,490 --> 00:51:31,350
Where does the ethics stand on that?
868
00:51:31,755 --> 00:51:36,735
Well most suicide as opposed to voluntary
assisted dying, which is a form of
869
00:51:36,735 --> 00:51:42,225
suicide, most suicide is not based on
a kind of free prior informed consent.
870
00:51:42,375 --> 00:51:48,105
People are often suffering from clinical
depression and a range of other factors.
871
00:51:48,615 --> 00:51:52,365
That they believe about their life
to present an insurmountable set of
872
00:51:52,365 --> 00:51:57,435
challenges where death is their only
outlet, even if it is as rational as
873
00:51:57,435 --> 00:51:59,355
that, and it, it often will not be.
874
00:51:59,805 --> 00:52:03,375
And so the ethical issues around
suicide are not that it should
875
00:52:03,375 --> 00:52:06,135
be accepted as a right because.
876
00:52:06,690 --> 00:52:09,660
It's only a right in those circumstances
where you're actually genuinely
877
00:52:09,660 --> 00:52:13,320
in control and making a fully
rational choice in the way that you
878
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:14,880
would in voluntary assisted dying.
879
00:52:15,420 --> 00:52:19,320
This instead is something that comes
about because society has not adequately
880
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:23,220
catered for the circumstances,
including your mental health.
881
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:27,825
That might lead you to this
as a way to end it all.
882
00:52:28,725 --> 00:52:31,665
When there were so many other
things that might have been done.
883
00:52:32,355 --> 00:52:35,865
And so the ethical question for
society becomes, do we invest
884
00:52:35,865 --> 00:52:37,785
adequately in the various.
885
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:44,730
Areas of research and intervention in
medicine and other forms of support that
886
00:52:44,730 --> 00:52:48,600
mean that suicide isn't your only option.
887
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:52,140
That there are forms of treatment
and we're constantly looking
888
00:52:52,140 --> 00:52:53,819
as a society how to help.
889
00:52:53,819 --> 00:52:59,460
So there's now things like the use of
psychedelic drugs to alleviate forms of
890
00:52:59,460 --> 00:53:04,259
depression that haven't been alleviated
by using other forms of intervention.
891
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,040
Ketamine's recently been looked
at by the Black Dog Institute.
892
00:53:08,310 --> 00:53:11,550
Wonderful Research Institute
develops all sorts of ways.
893
00:53:12,299 --> 00:53:15,779
So I think we should be setting
ourselves up as a society to invest
894
00:53:15,810 --> 00:53:20,130
as best we can to ensure that no
person takes their life in desperation
895
00:53:20,250 --> 00:53:23,370
in a state of mental anguish, such
that they're not actually clear even
896
00:53:23,370 --> 00:53:24,540
that this is what they're doing.
897
00:53:25,620 --> 00:53:31,230
And I think that's a good point
to make in relation to, we've
898
00:53:31,230 --> 00:53:36,600
talked about a good death really
is a result of the life you live.
899
00:53:36,660 --> 00:53:37,980
It's a part of a good life.
900
00:53:38,375 --> 00:53:38,795
Yeah.
901
00:53:38,799 --> 00:53:39,180
It's part of it.
902
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:39,815
And it's part of it.
903
00:53:39,904 --> 00:53:40,325
Yeah.
904
00:53:40,325 --> 00:53:41,464
And it's part of a good life.
905
00:53:41,470 --> 00:53:42,665
I, I really like that.
906
00:53:42,754 --> 00:53:45,154
The way in which you, you phrase that.
907
00:53:45,845 --> 00:53:48,575
And so what does that mean?
908
00:53:48,575 --> 00:53:51,725
What, what should we be
doing in our everyday life?
909
00:53:52,475 --> 00:53:55,504
Well, if you were putting together a
number of the elements we've talked
910
00:53:55,504 --> 00:53:58,984
about and, and you began about, you
know, as a, a good death and ethical
911
00:53:58,984 --> 00:54:00,395
death, and I talked about how you.
912
00:54:00,900 --> 00:54:02,970
I would prefer to die
without regret or guilt.
913
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:07,680
I would be doing what the ancients
have recommended, which is live
914
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:11,550
every day as if it is your last.
915
00:54:11,790 --> 00:54:17,880
In a sense, think about how the life
you are living in, which hopefully
916
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:22,500
you are flourishing, is something that
you carry through in that state of
917
00:54:22,500 --> 00:54:25,020
flourishing to the very last breath.
918
00:54:25,470 --> 00:54:30,900
And if you are able to live
comfortably with yourself, if you're
919
00:54:30,900 --> 00:54:34,440
able to sit at the center of who
you are to like yourself, if you
920
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:35,790
like to love yourself a little bit.
921
00:54:36,045 --> 00:54:41,895
And not be remorseful for who you are,
not to have that kind of moral injury that
922
00:54:41,895 --> 00:54:46,335
comes when you say to yourself, how did
I become the person who just did that?
923
00:54:46,665 --> 00:54:49,875
Then I think if you're doing that
every day, then that's good, and
924
00:54:49,875 --> 00:54:52,845
it doesn't require you to engage
in the kind of heroic feats of
925
00:54:52,845 --> 00:54:55,515
someone like a Mandela or a Gandhi.
926
00:54:55,515 --> 00:55:00,735
I mean, this can be attained by
just falling the right side of
927
00:55:00,735 --> 00:55:01,995
a question just a little bit.
928
00:55:02,910 --> 00:55:08,070
But every day, and you might just
decide because you can afford to,
929
00:55:08,070 --> 00:55:12,390
to buy, I don't know, a free range
egg rather than a caged bird egg.
930
00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:12,690
And.
931
00:55:12,765 --> 00:55:15,795
A little bit less suffering in the
world is brought about by that.
932
00:55:15,795 --> 00:55:19,065
You might just say thank you
to someone or smile at them.
933
00:55:19,815 --> 00:55:23,984
Even though they're just a passing
stranger or a person in a shop.
934
00:55:24,075 --> 00:55:29,115
You might decide not to do something which
would immediately serve your interests,
935
00:55:29,115 --> 00:55:32,595
but would be something that might be a bit
tacky and you'd prefer not to have done.
936
00:55:33,225 --> 00:55:36,285
But all of those decisions have
ultimately gotta be those that you
937
00:55:36,285 --> 00:55:40,154
make, knowing who you are and who you
want to be with, given your own ethical
938
00:55:40,154 --> 00:55:42,165
foundations of core values and principles.
939
00:55:42,930 --> 00:55:47,400
And I think if you can do that every
day, then you are doing about as much
940
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:50,790
as anyone can do to ensure that the
death, which is part of your life,
941
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:52,590
is as good as the rest of your life.
942
00:55:53,190 --> 00:55:57,300
Simon, I think that is such a beautiful
way to end our conversation today.
943
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:01,350
I can't thank you enough for
taking the time to chat with us.
944
00:56:01,350 --> 00:56:02,310
Thank you so much.
945
00:56:02,490 --> 00:56:03,240
It's been my pleasure.
946
00:56:03,270 --> 00:56:03,690
Thank you.
947
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:10,259
We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,
948
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:12,330
brought to you by Critical Info.
949
00:56:13,050 --> 00:56:17,340
If you liked the episode, learn something
new, or were touched by a story you
950
00:56:17,340 --> 00:56:19,290
heard, we'd love for you to let us know.
951
00:56:19,410 --> 00:56:23,040
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952
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:24,780
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953
00:56:24,930 --> 00:56:29,100
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954
00:56:29,100 --> 00:56:30,840
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955
00:56:31,140 --> 00:56:32,490
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956
00:56:32,535 --> 00:56:33,615
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957
00:56:33,615 --> 00:56:37,515
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958
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Resources
- Visit the Website: Ethics Centre Website
- Ethi-call
A free, independent helpline is available to all. We provide expert and impartial guidance to help people make their way through life’s toughest challenges.Ethi-call sessions are a confidential one-hour call with an ethics counsellor. Our counsellors will guide you through a series of questions that help shine a light on the problem you’re trying to solve.
The process will help you to get a decision that’s right for you. Ethi-call has a wide range of session times available to suit your schedule. Bookings are by appointment only. It’s simple to arrange a call, and the service is 100% confidential.
- Visit the Website: Black Dog Institute Website
- Make Death Admin Easy with The Critical Info Platform
A simple system to sort your personal paperwork for when your information becomes critical.
- My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?
Our guide, ‘My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?’ provides practical steps for the hours and days after a loved one's death. Purchase it here.
- Support Services
If you're feeling overwhelmed by grief, find support through our resources and bereavement services here.
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