1
00:00:02,770 --> 00:00:07,270
So, when you get your diagnosis, even
before you say yes to chemo or have

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00:00:07,270 --> 00:00:12,440
your first chemo treatment or radio or
surgery, just even if it's one night,

3
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sit with yourself, preferably under
the moon and just say to yourself, what

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are my needs and wants around this?

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00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:20,099
Do I want to live or die?

6< ... Read More

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00:00:02,770 --> 00:00:07,270
So, when you get your diagnosis, even
before you say yes to chemo or have

2
00:00:07,270 --> 00:00:12,440
your first chemo treatment or radio or
surgery, just even if it's one night,

3
00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:17,419
sit with yourself, preferably under
the moon and just say to yourself, what

4
00:00:17,420 --> 00:00:19,000
are my needs and wants around this?

5
00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:20,099
Do I want to live or die?

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People sort of fall over.

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They say, I can't do that.

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I don't know how to do it.

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I said, just try it.

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00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,840
Sit under the moon and say to
yourself, do you want to live or die?

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Because the answer comes up.

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No matter how suppressed you've
been, so many people will say to me

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a week later, Wow, I did that thing.

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I'm happy to have chemo.

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I'm going to work with getting well.

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Because not everybody's got the capacity
to heal themselves and be, you know,

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00:00:41,545 --> 00:00:45,434
revolutionaries and get rid of multiple
cancers in their body, you know.

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But I say, you've got a
right to make a choice.

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Or, would you rather just curl up
and die and probably be dead in

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00:00:51,944 --> 00:00:53,284
eight weeks without all the fuss?

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Yep, I'll do that one, thank you.

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Thank you for helping decide.

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So it's just been really clear
and, and, and I say to people, why

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do you think you've got cancer?

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00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,570
I often think our autoimmune
systems are knocked around because

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of huge stresses in our lives.

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And I say, are you willing
to give up all the stress?

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Are you willing?

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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a
podcast encouraging open conversations

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00:01:17,149 --> 00:01:19,529
about dying and the death of a loved one.

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00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:25,050
I'm your host, Katherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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00:01:25,050 --> 00:01:27,539
bring your stories of death back to life.

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00:01:28,130 --> 00:01:32,299
Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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00:01:35,839 --> 00:01:38,920
Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations

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00:01:38,970 --> 00:01:42,779
and recognises their connection
to land, sea, and community.

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00:01:43,025 --> 00:01:47,565
We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging, and extend

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00:01:47,565 --> 00:01:51,035
that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First

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00:01:51,035 --> 00:01:52,775
Nation peoples around the globe.

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00:01:54,025 --> 00:01:58,835
As outlined on her website, Denise
Love, founder of Life Options with

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00:01:58,845 --> 00:02:04,854
Denise Love, outlines her services
as a Circle of Life doula, birth

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00:02:04,855 --> 00:02:10,970
doula trainer, a hypnotherapist with
birth support, Life, pain and death.

42
00:02:11,500 --> 00:02:12,690
Death doula trainer.

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00:02:13,110 --> 00:02:17,060
Doulas of the world and
Women's Health Cambodia.

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00:02:17,549 --> 00:02:19,720
Denise explains her philosophy.

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00:02:19,820 --> 00:02:22,650
I am fascinated by the
first and last breath.

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00:02:23,089 --> 00:02:26,189
I have been serving dying
people for most of my life.

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00:02:26,819 --> 00:02:32,850
I run an in home hospice or health
doula service and I believe in cost

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00:02:32,850 --> 00:02:35,370
effective green end of life choices.

49
00:02:35,770 --> 00:02:41,660
I am comfortable with the choice to die
when ever, that is, without treatment

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00:02:41,910 --> 00:02:43,990
or people taking their own lives.

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00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:48,320
Now, Denise, not everyone can
actually say that they're comfortable

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00:02:48,330 --> 00:02:50,110
or have a philosophy like that.

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00:02:50,620 --> 00:02:54,790
You've been facilitating learning
of dullers for the past 18 years

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00:02:54,839 --> 00:02:59,464
in a variety of countries in
both rural and city settings.

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00:02:59,954 --> 00:03:04,325
And, to be honest, every doula I've spoken
to has actually done training with you.

56
00:03:04,325 --> 00:03:08,445
What do you think that people
are drawn to your training?

57
00:03:08,494 --> 00:03:10,274
What do you think draws them to you?

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00:03:10,845 --> 00:03:15,475
Many people say, I create my own
website and I manage my own website.

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And I've had many people do it
for free and do it different

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which ways, and it's just not me.

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00:03:21,340 --> 00:03:24,619
So number one, if their first
introduction to me is on my website,

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they're just hearing Denise.

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I write the way I speak,
and I speak the way I write.

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So I think there's this
authenticity of who I am.

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I'm pretty full on.

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00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,439
Uh, that attracts some people,
but I really don't know.

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I, I seem to find a gap in a system
whether it's Birth Stooler or

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00:03:43,729 --> 00:03:47,779
Death Stooler and I've just written
literally a Menopause Stooler.

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I I see something and I, it just
creates my mind instantly and I can

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manifest it and somehow within six
weeks I'm teaching the training course.

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00:03:57,930 --> 00:04:02,789
And whatever it is that comes out of
my mouth seems to work for most people

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00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:07,469
from the most conservative older or
younger woman through to the most

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00:04:07,470 --> 00:04:09,300
hippy dippy beautiful earth girl.

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goddesses that waltz around the earth.

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00:04:11,545 --> 00:04:16,265
And I think part of my chameleon,
being able to fit into most

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circumstances and feel very
comfortable, seems to work for people.

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00:04:19,964 --> 00:04:23,924
And I honestly, I can be very
judgmental in my personal life, but

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in my professional life, I mean, I'm
working on that one, but I honestly

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go to people without expectation.

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And I think it's felt, whether it's
during my training course, or whether

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I'm with you, And you're telling me
you want to take it live and I talk to

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you about that and say, well, that's
really strange and scary and tell me

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why and, and how are you going to do it?

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00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,060
And to some reason it doesn't faze me.

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It's kind of just in me.

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I feel like it's just there
and people see and hear that.

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00:04:52,025 --> 00:04:55,405
Yeah, it's interesting that you say
that because when I first met you,

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it was an email that I'd sent you
as a courtesy to let you know that

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00:04:59,294 --> 00:05:04,524
you'd been listed as a resource
on, on Bec Lyon's podcast with me.

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And you kindly, uh, invited
me along to one of your

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00:05:09,515 --> 00:05:12,217
training sessions in Melbourne.

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And.

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I felt completely at ease in your
company and the company of the, the

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other participants that were there and
I will say that they weren't all women.

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There was one man, uh, and
I, I even took some notes.

96
00:05:28,140 --> 00:05:30,200
So bear with me while I find those notes.

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00:05:30,715 --> 00:05:31,915
Sure, sure, sure.

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00:05:32,395 --> 00:05:36,285
Because I think that there was some really
amazing things that you said that really

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00:05:36,295 --> 00:05:44,055
resonated with me that I think might be
the magic ingredient that is Denise Love.

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And I have to say something that
I took away with me as I find

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00:05:49,814 --> 00:05:53,405
it, and I do apologise for not
having this up earlier, Denise.

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00:05:54,215 --> 00:05:55,905
Um, where are you?

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00:05:56,415 --> 00:05:57,935
The good thing is that we can edit this.

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00:05:58,900 --> 00:05:59,800
Here it is.

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00:06:00,100 --> 00:06:06,020
So this, this part I wrote in, in blue
pen on the day, I think a blue texter.

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00:06:06,510 --> 00:06:09,059
So people die the way they lived.

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00:06:09,570 --> 00:06:12,090
And that really, really resonated with me.

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And something that I, I really
loved to hear is don't bring out

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00:06:18,069 --> 00:06:21,000
the spirit stuff and turn it off.

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00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,400
So explain a couple of
those terms to us, Denise.

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00:06:25,895 --> 00:06:26,335
Okay.

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00:06:26,405 --> 00:06:29,465
So the first one was what, what did I say?

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People die the way they lived.

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00:06:31,295 --> 00:06:32,145
Oh yeah.

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Took me a while.

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00:06:33,545 --> 00:06:36,504
I had to become a more mature
woman to understand that I

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wasn't on earth to fix things.

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00:06:38,585 --> 00:06:40,765
I was on earth to facilitate things.

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00:06:40,765 --> 00:06:46,054
And so my biggest, I, I knew that at
a very young age, and it was sort of

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00:06:46,054 --> 00:06:50,474
because I had a bit of a chaotic, chaotic
debt emotionally, and it became really

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aware that I just needed I just needed
to listen and I couldn't fix things.

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00:06:53,740 --> 00:06:57,780
I just needed to be able to hear
things and hear them without chaos

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00:06:57,780 --> 00:07:02,889
in my own brain or judgment or just
really be able to go, wow, that's you.

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00:07:02,910 --> 00:07:06,259
That's where you're at right now,
you know, without internalizing and

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00:07:06,259 --> 00:07:08,179
blaming myself and stuff like that.

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00:07:08,690 --> 00:07:12,300
So when I was a family with,
you know, many, many, most I'm

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going to say is a generalization.

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00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,470
Most families have some chaos in them.

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00:07:16,975 --> 00:07:21,465
They have that daughter or that son or
that three ex husbands or somebody that's

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00:07:21,475 --> 00:07:25,694
going to be a little challenging around
the end of life or want to visit and

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00:07:25,705 --> 00:07:28,984
they don't want them to visit because
they might have raped them as a child.

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00:07:28,984 --> 00:07:30,905
I'm just thinking of
instances I've worked with.

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And that's for me to just be there and
go, wow, this is really challenging guys.

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00:07:35,094 --> 00:07:39,684
You've got a really, really strong issue
in your families and I can feel the chaos.

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00:07:39,984 --> 00:07:41,054
I'm going to go for a walk.

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00:07:41,414 --> 00:07:45,635
cup of tea while you all sort out your
chaos, or don't, and then let's come, I'm

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00:07:45,635 --> 00:07:47,294
going to come back and get on with dying.

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00:07:47,755 --> 00:07:50,895
Now if that's a mother of the family
that I'm dying with, you know, the

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00:07:50,895 --> 00:07:55,164
woman who's dying, she's allowed this
to take place in her life and her family

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00:07:55,164 --> 00:08:01,235
for the last 20, 30, 40, 50 years, as
if I can come in the last three days

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00:08:01,235 --> 00:08:05,465
of her life, or last three weeks or
months, and suddenly sort out the chaos.

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00:08:05,955 --> 00:08:10,475
So I find, you know, that woman hangs on
and goes through the guilt and I don't

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00:08:10,475 --> 00:08:14,615
know, you just see the process of her
getting to the surrender stage of dying.

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00:08:15,115 --> 00:08:17,915
She needs that chaos
almost to be able to die.

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00:08:17,924 --> 00:08:20,074
If I try and calm it down,
then she doesn't know who to

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00:08:20,075 --> 00:08:21,174
be and where to go with it.

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00:08:21,639 --> 00:08:24,009
Or if I let the chaos in the
room and everybody's yelling

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00:08:24,009 --> 00:08:27,989
each other over the dying body,
good, that's what she's used to.

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She feels safe and at home and my kids are
going to go on hating each other maybe.

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00:08:32,140 --> 00:08:35,610
It just, and I'm sort of exaggerating
it a little bit, but not really.

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00:08:35,620 --> 00:08:38,109
It just feels like, just let people be.

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00:08:39,025 --> 00:08:43,075
I used to think we had to come to
resolution and forgiveness and all

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00:08:43,075 --> 00:08:48,505
those buzzwords and I just walk in
and say, guys, a lot of chaos here.

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I'm going to have a cup of tea.

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00:08:50,315 --> 00:08:52,895
When you finish your chaos,
let's sit at the table and see

156
00:08:52,895 --> 00:08:54,295
if we can get on with the dying.

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00:08:54,775 --> 00:08:56,535
And people are so taken back.

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that they go, oh I have a
cup of tea with you, I think.

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00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,450
You know, say can you just put
it aside for 10 minutes and let

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00:09:02,450 --> 00:09:05,520
it die and then we can, you know,
you can go to therapy afterwards.

161
00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:10,139
I hate each other for life, but what I
experience is the person that's dying

162
00:09:10,620 --> 00:09:16,330
will either set up the chaos by being, you
pretty awful to one of the kids or blaming

163
00:09:16,330 --> 00:09:21,170
them, you know, she'll continue her
behavior as she was, which in turn often

164
00:09:21,170 --> 00:09:26,309
means that they have a more uncomfortable
and more disorganized and chaotic death,

165
00:09:26,370 --> 00:09:28,149
you know, maybe even much more pain.

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00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,889
So it's just been an observation of
years and years and years, mostly out of

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00:09:31,889 --> 00:09:36,079
hospitals, you know, hospitals, people
are drugged down, but many people I work

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with aren't necessarily drugged down.

169
00:09:37,699 --> 00:09:40,780
In fact, I would encourage
them to be drugged less and

170
00:09:40,780 --> 00:09:41,939
to manage pain differently.

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00:09:41,939 --> 00:09:42,470
So.

172
00:09:42,770 --> 00:09:44,180
Yeah, it's just an observation.

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Good people tend to die.

174
00:09:45,220 --> 00:09:49,510
If they're a lot of older men, they're
very self possessed and just hop on

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00:09:49,510 --> 00:09:53,389
their bed and kind of die and don't
expect anybody around them and they

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00:09:53,389 --> 00:09:58,400
don't have any needs and no wants and
they've never had really, you know,

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00:09:58,450 --> 00:10:02,170
they've gone to work and come home and
handed wifey the money and they just die.

178
00:10:02,190 --> 00:10:04,190
It's, it's fascinating to watch.

179
00:10:04,670 --> 00:10:09,890
And tell me about the term
that you used, turn it off.

180
00:10:10,380 --> 00:10:11,070
I'll turn it off.

181
00:10:11,569 --> 00:10:14,110
So turn it off in my mind, do
you mean, or in their mind?

182
00:10:14,140 --> 00:10:17,920
I just turn it, tell me in the context
again, I think you mean in my mind?

183
00:10:18,410 --> 00:10:21,090
Yeah, it may have been
in your mind, I'd say.

184
00:10:21,579 --> 00:10:26,349
So the switch, I used to put my hand on
my chest and just go not, really not your

185
00:10:26,350 --> 00:10:31,000
circus, Denise, just turn it off and don't
buy into the emotions of the situation.

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00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,120
It might be a 12 year old child dying.

187
00:10:33,615 --> 00:10:34,725
I'm here as the doula.

188
00:10:34,725 --> 00:10:39,614
I'm not here to buy into the, the, I
mean, I'll have moments of sadness.

189
00:10:39,614 --> 00:10:42,764
I might sit on the toilet and
cry, but just turn it off.

190
00:10:42,864 --> 00:10:43,694
Let it be.

191
00:10:44,134 --> 00:10:45,334
Stay focused.

192
00:10:45,804 --> 00:10:48,074
Bit like you're doing with
your studies, you know.

193
00:10:48,515 --> 00:10:51,985
You could start to do this thing
on death and end up doing it on the

194
00:10:51,985 --> 00:10:53,805
climbing of a mountain, but you don't.

195
00:10:53,915 --> 00:10:54,824
You stay focused.

196
00:10:54,824 --> 00:10:58,634
You turn off all the outside
clutter, all the outside noise,

197
00:10:59,155 --> 00:11:00,545
and you go, what am I here to do?

198
00:11:00,545 --> 00:11:02,584
I'm to see and hear and to serve.

199
00:11:02,915 --> 00:11:05,025
I'm not here to be the
therapy or the counsellor.

200
00:11:05,245 --> 00:11:07,505
I can do a bit of that because
I've become a bit clever at it.

201
00:11:08,005 --> 00:11:09,645
But I'll see if they want it first.

202
00:11:10,195 --> 00:11:11,565
So I just turn it off.

203
00:11:11,565 --> 00:11:16,195
I look around and I go, Oh, that
could even be with a body that's a bit

204
00:11:16,195 --> 00:11:18,684
smelly, that maybe was found in a house.

205
00:11:18,684 --> 00:11:19,934
You know, I just say, turn it off.

206
00:11:19,934 --> 00:11:20,955
You don't have to smell that.

207
00:11:21,264 --> 00:11:24,395
It's really a very powerful
mind over matter tool that I'm

208
00:11:24,395 --> 00:11:26,475
developing and continue to.

209
00:11:26,950 --> 00:11:31,240
To allow myself to stay focused on
life, not only during death, but

210
00:11:31,250 --> 00:11:36,299
even in my own life, you know, to
really reduce the clutter, generally,

211
00:11:36,340 --> 00:11:39,520
in my brain and just switch it off.

212
00:11:40,010 --> 00:11:42,890
It's a point, I'm often touched
between my thumb and my finger if

213
00:11:42,890 --> 00:11:45,750
I can feel myself getting involved,
I give it a bit of a tweak.

214
00:11:46,245 --> 00:11:50,265
I've tried wearing an elastic band around
my wrist like people do with anxiety and

215
00:11:50,265 --> 00:11:52,565
stuff, but I just, I just go turn it off.

216
00:11:52,575 --> 00:11:54,464
It's just a saying, you just turn it off.

217
00:11:54,955 --> 00:11:55,815
Don't buy into it.

218
00:11:56,295 --> 00:12:00,745
So that is a technique you've
developed over time to make sure that

219
00:12:00,745 --> 00:12:02,295
there's some boundaries kept there?

220
00:12:02,724 --> 00:12:03,065
Is that right?

221
00:12:03,455 --> 00:12:04,085
Really strong.

222
00:12:04,085 --> 00:12:07,015
For their safety and
security as well as mine.

223
00:12:07,485 --> 00:12:11,315
So they're not getting too much
of Denise and I'm not in, I'm not

224
00:12:11,315 --> 00:12:16,715
invading that space of thinking I've
got to fix and make it easier and

225
00:12:16,735 --> 00:12:20,365
better and get everybody loving each
other or whatever I'm referring to.

226
00:12:20,395 --> 00:12:21,035
But yeah.

227
00:12:21,560 --> 00:12:22,750
Just let it alone.

228
00:12:22,820 --> 00:12:23,930
Turn it off, Denise.

229
00:12:23,970 --> 00:12:24,860
Just turn it off.

230
00:12:25,330 --> 00:12:31,380
I, I love the fact that you, you met
your husband, Gary, many years ago now.

231
00:12:31,380 --> 00:12:34,329
I think you've been married
for, for over 40 years.

232
00:12:34,510 --> 00:12:36,110
50 years tomorrow.

233
00:12:36,409 --> 00:12:37,700
50 years tomorrow.

234
00:12:38,079 --> 00:12:39,450
Oh, congratulations.

235
00:12:39,469 --> 00:12:40,620
That's amazing.

236
00:12:41,079 --> 00:12:42,660
Oh, that is so beautiful.

237
00:12:42,670 --> 00:12:44,240
It feels pretty phenomenal, to be honest.

238
00:12:44,459 --> 00:12:47,260
It feels really revolutionary, almost.

239
00:12:48,189 --> 00:12:50,870
And in what way do you think
it might be revolutionary?

240
00:12:51,460 --> 00:12:55,260
Well, Gary and I talk all the time
about how ridiculous it is to live

241
00:12:55,260 --> 00:12:58,209
with somebody for the whole of your
life that you're not forced to live

242
00:12:58,210 --> 00:13:00,309
with because you're part of a family.

243
00:13:00,789 --> 00:13:06,120
And the, the real challenges, you know,
is that that are very real that one

244
00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,170
has to go to to become so selfless.

245
00:13:08,340 --> 00:13:10,050
And that's what I call it, selflessness.

246
00:13:10,460 --> 00:13:14,760
There's a strong boundary of selfishness
and a strong boundary of selflessness.

247
00:13:15,250 --> 00:13:19,300
And for me, particularly when I'm
working with couples or mummies and

248
00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:23,879
daddies of young children, I just, I'm
seeing a huge lack of selflessness, a

249
00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,710
huge lack of willingness to surrender
to something that might make another

250
00:13:27,710 --> 00:13:29,410
person's life a little bit easier.

251
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:35,130
And yeah, just, I think it's monumental
what one has to go to an emotional,

252
00:13:35,140 --> 00:13:41,699
physical, and spiritual level to decide to
stay in a relationship that's honourable,

253
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,790
that's, it's, it's honest, and to reach
that level of honesty that you can

254
00:13:45,790 --> 00:13:49,589
say things quickly that might hurt,
but you need to be spurred, you know.

255
00:13:50,079 --> 00:13:53,710
So yeah, I think it's, I don't know
many people that managed 50 years,

256
00:13:53,740 --> 00:13:56,460
older people used to, but I'm not
sure a lot of them liked each other,

257
00:13:56,740 --> 00:13:58,250
which you really like each other.

258
00:13:58,710 --> 00:14:02,920
And, and Gary was there and was
the first person that welcomed

259
00:14:02,930 --> 00:14:04,870
me to your training session.

260
00:14:05,300 --> 00:14:11,210
So, he seems to have always been by your
side, is, is that right, during this time?

261
00:14:11,709 --> 00:14:12,719
Yeah, he does.

262
00:14:12,729 --> 00:14:14,540
Look, he's been by my side.

263
00:14:14,580 --> 00:14:19,870
Gary's a big CEO of big companies and all
sorts of things, and he's a scientist,

264
00:14:19,870 --> 00:14:21,530
he's anything but fairly touchy.

265
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,290
But I've been on call for most
of my professional working life.

266
00:14:25,290 --> 00:14:29,159
I mean, talking 30 years, maybe on call
continuously, except for the odd week.

267
00:14:29,569 --> 00:14:32,869
And you know, if I'm tired at night,
he'll get, he'll hear the phone

268
00:14:32,869 --> 00:14:35,640
ring, or I might be going to a birth
or a death, and he'll wake up and

269
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,140
say, babe, you've just gotten a bid.

270
00:14:37,229 --> 00:14:38,749
Hop in the car, I'll drive you there.

271
00:14:39,220 --> 00:14:43,290
And he'll go and sit in the
car for 5 hours, have a sleep,

272
00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:45,450
drive me home, tuck me into bed.

273
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,300
And so he does sit in on all since
he's retired, he sits in all my

274
00:14:49,300 --> 00:14:52,810
face to face courses, and until
recently he would facilitate

275
00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,100
the cups of tea and all of that.

276
00:14:55,589 --> 00:14:59,269
But every week, every time I'm doing
it, I said, babe, you must be over this.

277
00:14:59,339 --> 00:15:00,560
He said, you know what, I'm not.

278
00:15:00,620 --> 00:15:02,310
I hear something new every time I come.

279
00:15:02,359 --> 00:15:07,395
And he says, He's a little bit spellbound
by what you walked into, you know, just

280
00:15:07,415 --> 00:15:12,295
that safe space of sitting, talking about
particularly some, but he sits in on

281
00:15:12,305 --> 00:15:16,785
birth courses as well, but the beginning,
like they're really important issues

282
00:15:16,785 --> 00:15:18,865
in life that rarely even get mentioned.

283
00:15:19,334 --> 00:15:21,934
And so, yeah, he's just
there and he really loves it.

284
00:15:21,935 --> 00:15:22,874
He does all the marketing.

285
00:15:22,964 --> 00:15:25,704
Now he runs the business sort of
stuff and I write the programs.

286
00:15:25,985 --> 00:15:30,325
And I think it's that thing that
you're talking about where we very much

287
00:15:30,335 --> 00:15:32,155
honor each other's professionalism.

288
00:15:32,895 --> 00:15:36,435
And what we do, and we want to be
part of it, we like it, we enjoy it.

289
00:15:36,915 --> 00:15:42,914
And you've obviously had that ability
to allow each other to grow within

290
00:15:42,915 --> 00:15:47,194
the relationship over that 50 years
that you're celebrating tomorrow.

291
00:15:47,764 --> 00:15:52,354
Because you only married him
after 12 weeks of knowing him.

292
00:15:52,845 --> 00:15:55,735
The night I met him, I thought, I
don't know, I mean, I was traveling

293
00:15:55,735 --> 00:15:59,980
Australia in a combi van and he was
off to Germany and Been a hitchhiker

294
00:15:59,980 --> 00:16:03,660
around Australia and we sat the first
night saying who would get married?

295
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,330
Why on earth would you do it to yourself?

296
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:08,970
And yet I'm sitting there
thinking while I'm saying that

297
00:16:08,990 --> 00:16:10,469
I think I'm going to marry you.

298
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,909
And you know we both said that night
and said we'd never get married and

299
00:16:13,939 --> 00:16:17,970
somehow 12 weeks later we just couldn't
not get married and I can't, it's a

300
00:16:17,970 --> 00:16:22,250
spiritual thing, I can't, it's like a
declaration to each other, you know.

301
00:16:22,250 --> 00:16:25,149
I talk with people all the time
I say but I'm in a relationship

302
00:16:25,149 --> 00:16:26,680
and we can be mean it I say.

303
00:16:27,125 --> 00:16:30,385
For me, there was something that
stood when I said my vows and

304
00:16:30,385 --> 00:16:32,214
thought, I have to honor this.

305
00:16:32,735 --> 00:16:36,274
This is what I'm going to do, and this
is part of my life's purpose, is to work

306
00:16:36,274 --> 00:16:40,325
out the depths you have to go to to have
a relationship that's so meaningful.

307
00:16:40,805 --> 00:16:45,754
So it's a, it's an honest, I mean, not
for any other spiritual reason other

308
00:16:45,754 --> 00:16:51,344
than myself, I will do everything that
I can to honor this relationship, to

309
00:16:51,344 --> 00:16:53,714
make it worthy, truthful, and honest.

310
00:16:54,245 --> 00:16:59,325
It's interesting that you say that
because I was with my now husband for 10

311
00:16:59,335 --> 00:17:05,905
years before we got married and we had
a, a, our son who was two at the time at

312
00:17:05,905 --> 00:17:08,544
our wedding and it did feel different.

313
00:17:09,035 --> 00:17:15,450
It, it felt, it felt like quite an
amazing, um, I suppose, uh, right of

314
00:17:15,450 --> 00:17:23,079
passage or something to actually go
through a ceremony that we declared our

315
00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:25,329
love for each other in front of people.

316
00:17:25,749 --> 00:17:31,795
There was something that was in that, that
we hadn't actually experienced or made

317
00:17:31,795 --> 00:17:35,385
that level of commitment to each other,
even though we'd had a son together.

318
00:17:35,865 --> 00:17:37,915
Which is sort of a bigger
commitment in some ways.

319
00:17:38,225 --> 00:17:38,925
Yeah, it is.

320
00:17:39,254 --> 00:17:42,654
But it's an essence, it's a personal,
it's something deep inside, it's

321
00:17:42,655 --> 00:17:44,375
very hard to describe, isn't it?

322
00:17:44,754 --> 00:17:47,534
And look, I'm looking at all these
kids, I'm going to call them, having

323
00:17:47,534 --> 00:17:51,605
these expensive wedding Gary and
I didn't have any special clothes.

324
00:17:51,615 --> 00:17:56,285
We flew home from Germany, stood in a
ceremony, you know, out by the ocean,

325
00:17:56,785 --> 00:18:01,185
and it did happen to be in a beautiful
little tiny chapel on the hospital

326
00:18:01,185 --> 00:18:02,864
grounds where I'd lived as a nurse.

327
00:18:03,245 --> 00:18:07,695
And it was just, It was a phenomenal
experience and what we're doing

328
00:18:07,695 --> 00:18:11,365
tomorrow is just going out and sitting
there on the rocks and talking, but

329
00:18:11,365 --> 00:18:12,605
saying, aren't you having a big party?

330
00:18:12,645 --> 00:18:15,045
I didn't need a big wedding
and I don't need a big party.

331
00:18:15,295 --> 00:18:15,995
I need him.

332
00:18:16,145 --> 00:18:19,475
I just need to experience what
we've achieved as a couple.

333
00:18:19,495 --> 00:18:21,155
But yeah, you've got it.

334
00:18:21,165 --> 00:18:25,715
You can't describe whatever it is
you stood in front of your friends

335
00:18:25,715 --> 00:18:28,495
or family and said, I will love you.

336
00:18:28,815 --> 00:18:30,355
I will find a pathway to love.

337
00:18:30,745 --> 00:18:33,915
Now, if the person doesn't love you
back, you can't always achieve it.

338
00:18:34,285 --> 00:18:38,295
But I was willing to give what I
could give to be loved and love him.

339
00:18:38,774 --> 00:18:43,754
And it is, it is such a, a personal
experience that, that each one has to,

340
00:18:44,104 --> 00:18:45,674
you know, do what's right for them.

341
00:18:46,185 --> 00:18:51,495
But, uh, something that is interesting
about your relationship with, with,

342
00:18:51,534 --> 00:18:57,189
with Gary, that you mentioned during the
training session that I Very amazing.

343
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,340
And I'm not sure how tolerant my husband
would have been if I'd actually put him

344
00:19:01,340 --> 00:19:06,139
in the same situation, but I believe that
you made a phone call to him when you

345
00:19:06,139 --> 00:19:12,340
were overseas about, uh, your future and
what that was going to, to look like.

346
00:19:12,370 --> 00:19:14,980
Do you want to explain
that a little bit, Denise?

347
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:16,070
Sure, sure.

348
00:19:16,580 --> 00:19:20,670
So when I was a little girl and we,
I first became aware that African

349
00:19:20,670 --> 00:19:25,050
people were dying, Bangladesh, all
sorts of things, I sat at my dining

350
00:19:25,050 --> 00:19:28,679
room table, I think I was 12, and
just said to my family, who we

351
00:19:28,679 --> 00:19:30,549
had little, we didn't have much.

352
00:19:31,049 --> 00:19:33,920
If everybody in the world gave up
half of everything they had, there'd

353
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:35,330
be no hungry people in the world.

354
00:19:35,330 --> 00:19:41,080
And I get these idealisms that,
For me have to have to be real.

355
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:41,950
I think them through.

356
00:19:41,950 --> 00:19:43,210
They're not just wild ideas.

357
00:19:43,710 --> 00:19:48,740
So I sat around for a long, long time
and Gary and I worked hard and we lived

358
00:19:48,740 --> 00:19:54,019
well and I was given the opportunity
and asked to bring kindness to Cambodia.

359
00:19:54,525 --> 00:19:57,675
And I knew that some, and it was
particularly relating to women's

360
00:19:57,675 --> 00:19:58,745
health, mummies and babies.

361
00:19:58,745 --> 00:20:02,175
And I know that if we can keep
women healthy during pregnancy,

362
00:20:02,675 --> 00:20:05,345
we can end up with women who
are functioning human beings.

363
00:20:05,345 --> 00:20:08,425
It's kind of like a bit of a
mission of mine to keep people well,

364
00:20:09,065 --> 00:20:12,315
particularly women spiritually well
as much as physically, which is why

365
00:20:12,315 --> 00:20:13,935
I'm writing a menopause course now.

366
00:20:14,415 --> 00:20:18,639
But I was just, Carrie was in Bangkok,
we were over there doing some work,

367
00:20:19,129 --> 00:20:23,510
and I rang him from a village in
Cambodia and said, Babe, you know

368
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:27,899
we've talked about people giving
up half of everything they own.

369
00:20:27,979 --> 00:20:31,219
I've got an opportunity to open a
women's health centre in Cambodia.

370
00:20:31,569 --> 00:20:32,839
I'm going to need money.

371
00:20:32,839 --> 00:20:33,689
Are you up for it?

372
00:20:34,169 --> 00:20:34,929
He said, Sure, babe.

373
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:41,010
And he got on a plane that night and
flew to Cambodia, and by the time

374
00:20:41,010 --> 00:20:44,770
he arrived, the three midwives who
had promised when they left Kuala

375
00:20:44,770 --> 00:20:49,550
Lumpur's camp that they would care for
the women of Cambodia had been found

376
00:20:49,910 --> 00:20:51,640
and arrived in a house at midnight.

377
00:20:51,669 --> 00:20:53,160
It took them four hours to travel there.

378
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,430
And six weeks later, we opened
our first women's health center.

379
00:20:57,064 --> 00:21:02,165
And I think the greatest thing
that Gary and I met on was we

380
00:21:02,165 --> 00:21:03,735
both said yes to most things.

381
00:21:04,235 --> 00:21:09,245
We were not wicked people, we'd
never done drugs, or we hardly drank.

382
00:21:09,485 --> 00:21:11,574
And yet we said most, yes to most things.

383
00:21:11,574 --> 00:21:14,664
But we live a fairly conscious
life, I guess, is what I'm saying.

384
00:21:15,145 --> 00:21:19,930
Even, and so, He flew in and we met
with his midwives and I said, babe,

385
00:21:19,940 --> 00:21:23,990
it means we need to sell our place in
Sydney and buy something down in country

386
00:21:23,990 --> 00:21:25,780
so we can free up half the money.

387
00:21:26,159 --> 00:21:27,600
He went, sure, put it on the market.

388
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:30,580
I mean, I don't know how
magic happens in our lives.

389
00:21:30,589 --> 00:21:35,119
He doesn't say yes to everything,
trust me, but we both have a huge

390
00:21:35,129 --> 00:21:37,869
sense of appreciation of freedom.

391
00:21:38,330 --> 00:21:41,570
And you know, when my children were
growing up, I used to say, I just want

392
00:21:41,570 --> 00:21:43,020
everybody on earth to have options.

393
00:21:43,020 --> 00:21:43,770
You've got an option.

394
00:21:43,780 --> 00:21:44,350
Make a choice.

395
00:21:44,915 --> 00:21:47,635
And hence my name, company
name is Life Options.

396
00:21:48,094 --> 00:21:51,884
But I think as a little girl, I didn't
necessarily feel like I had choice.

397
00:21:51,884 --> 00:21:53,934
My mummy died, dad was not well.

398
00:21:54,415 --> 00:21:58,764
And, but I think I was just born
with this, this gift, I guess.

399
00:21:58,764 --> 00:22:02,024
I'm going to call it a gift and I didn't
recognise it for a long time, that I can

400
00:22:02,034 --> 00:22:03,695
say yes and I can make things happen.

401
00:22:04,180 --> 00:22:07,080
So Tammy, set the scene in Cambodia.

402
00:22:07,150 --> 00:22:11,440
It sounds like that the, where
you sent, uh, set up the medical

403
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:17,210
centre, uh, is quite an isolated,
remote part of Cambodia.

404
00:22:17,210 --> 00:22:20,060
So talk about how you
ended up there yourself.

405
00:22:20,549 --> 00:22:25,340
Well, this midwife that I'd been
invited over there by a French NGO

406
00:22:25,340 --> 00:22:30,975
to teach Village people who had no
medics and no doctors, no real, no

407
00:22:30,975 --> 00:22:36,374
nurses, just traditional health, just
women who looked after other women

408
00:22:36,374 --> 00:22:38,114
during labor, I guess, their aunties.

409
00:22:38,605 --> 00:22:42,934
This French NGO said to me, could you
come to Cambodia and teach the village

410
00:22:42,935 --> 00:22:44,974
people dangerous signs of pregnancy?

411
00:22:44,974 --> 00:22:49,030
So if they see them, Maybe they can
find a way to getting out of the

412
00:22:49,030 --> 00:22:53,390
village because there was no cars in
the village and one or two motorbikes.

413
00:22:53,810 --> 00:22:55,880
Maybe they can start to
look after each other.

414
00:22:55,899 --> 00:22:58,790
So we're not talking, there's
no instruments, there's no blood

415
00:22:58,790 --> 00:23:00,179
pressure machines, there's nothing.

416
00:23:00,229 --> 00:23:02,050
No clean water, no electricity.

417
00:23:02,935 --> 00:23:06,715
So truly, I went over there and this
woman, we facilitated workshops for

418
00:23:06,715 --> 00:23:09,385
the women in just temple grounds.

419
00:23:09,385 --> 00:23:10,405
We sat on the floor.

420
00:23:10,405 --> 00:23:14,514
We, I ran five workshops over a
period of about six months, and it was

421
00:23:14,534 --> 00:23:15,804
less than that, about three months.

422
00:23:16,284 --> 00:23:18,855
And this beautiful, who I'm
actually seeing on Saturday in

423
00:23:18,855 --> 00:23:20,625
Australia, this beautiful midwife.

424
00:23:20,985 --> 00:23:22,245
used to translate for me.

425
00:23:22,245 --> 00:23:24,555
Now, I still can't really
understand her English, so I'm

426
00:23:24,595 --> 00:23:26,255
not sure she can understand mine.

427
00:23:26,755 --> 00:23:28,395
But she got the gist of what I was trying.

428
00:23:28,395 --> 00:23:32,355
It was a non medical approach as a doula
to looking after people in pregnancy.

429
00:23:32,844 --> 00:23:37,324
So on the fifth time, she said, Sister,
I've never met anybody as kind as you.

430
00:23:37,825 --> 00:23:41,465
Can you come to bring, come
and bring kindness to Cambodia?

431
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:43,250
And I said, what does that mean?

432
00:23:43,260 --> 00:23:44,870
She said, we have to care for the women.

433
00:23:44,870 --> 00:23:48,680
She told me this story that these
three midwives said, after coming

434
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,400
out of camp for 10 years, the Pol
Pot camp, we will care for the

435
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:53,959
midwives, we care for the women.

436
00:23:54,390 --> 00:23:56,289
So I'm rambling, I'm not
sure what the question was.

437
00:23:56,300 --> 00:23:57,179
That's how I got there.

438
00:23:57,180 --> 00:24:01,320
So I, that's the night I rang Gary
and I said, this is no small feat.

439
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,850
We've got no clean water, like a
half, we had a half a litre a day.

440
00:24:05,215 --> 00:24:09,025
for each person to drink and to wash
in, that we got out of the ground.

441
00:24:09,515 --> 00:24:12,765
You know, otherwise out of a dirty
creek we had to filter three times.

442
00:24:13,055 --> 00:24:15,754
I said, this is going to
be big and we need money.

443
00:24:16,254 --> 00:24:19,885
So, yeah, I just, Gary
flew over from Bangkok.

444
00:24:19,915 --> 00:24:21,334
They found our premises.

445
00:24:21,864 --> 00:24:23,374
I went and lived in the village.

446
00:24:23,374 --> 00:24:26,414
It's a village where nobody speaks
English and there's nothing.

447
00:24:26,684 --> 00:24:28,944
I lived there for, I said,
I have to try myself out.

448
00:24:29,405 --> 00:24:32,135
Lived in the village for three
months, except with Choongi,

449
00:24:32,135 --> 00:24:33,675
who spoke a tiny bit of English.

450
00:24:34,155 --> 00:24:36,374
And I just wandered through the village.

451
00:24:36,374 --> 00:24:37,434
I played with kids.

452
00:24:37,434 --> 00:24:39,174
I set up in my, this little house.

453
00:24:39,745 --> 00:24:43,975
A woman let me have, every afternoon just
about every kid in the village would come.

454
00:24:43,975 --> 00:24:48,205
I had coloured pencils I'd had donated
and crayons and we sat on the floor.

455
00:24:48,205 --> 00:24:52,534
I had, I picked up a whole lot of
used paper in non pen and we used the

456
00:24:52,534 --> 00:24:54,465
backside of printed paper and drew.

457
00:24:54,949 --> 00:24:58,550
And after three months I said
to Gary, yep, I can do this.

458
00:24:58,810 --> 00:25:00,009
This is where I need to be.

459
00:25:00,339 --> 00:25:04,109
So we're literally apart for 10 years
and he would fly in three times a year

460
00:25:04,109 --> 00:25:05,620
and I'd fly home three times a year.

461
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:09,209
And he reduced his lifestyle
now to next to nothing, no

462
00:25:09,209 --> 00:25:10,769
extras, just three meals a day.

463
00:25:10,860 --> 00:25:15,860
And we began a campaign where I raised
100, 000 a year just through donations,

464
00:25:15,909 --> 00:25:17,310
mostly from Australian people.

465
00:25:17,459 --> 00:25:20,500
You know, little old pensioners
giving me 10 out of their pension.

466
00:25:20,500 --> 00:25:23,270
And we ran it on our money sent out.

467
00:25:23,460 --> 00:25:28,760
And, and the midwives of Australia,
we've got seven tuk tuk ambulances now

468
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:30,140
that we can get people to Phnom Penh.

469
00:25:30,150 --> 00:25:31,830
The midwives all raise money.

470
00:25:31,930 --> 00:25:34,670
Volunteers came for three, you've
got us come for three months.

471
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:38,030
It's two, it's two and a half hours
in Phnom Penh and it's remote.

472
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:39,649
And people just die.

473
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,249
I've got no medicine to save people.

474
00:25:41,610 --> 00:25:45,450
So babies die, children die,
adults die, full malaria,

475
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:46,850
dengue fever, the whole shebang.

476
00:25:47,370 --> 00:25:51,119
Now I look back, I mean, we just
went back a few weeks ago, but I

477
00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:53,979
don't know where I got the capacity
to do that, but I had to do it.

478
00:25:53,980 --> 00:25:55,430
It was compelling.

479
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:59,929
I was 60, the three midwives I
set up with were all 60 years old,

480
00:26:00,419 --> 00:26:01,840
and that's how I got to be there.

481
00:26:02,330 --> 00:26:05,750
And how many years has this
been running for, Denise?

482
00:26:05,970 --> 00:26:08,360
Well, it's now COVID
hit and we, I came back.

483
00:26:08,899 --> 00:26:10,770
And so it's been 14 years now.

484
00:26:11,259 --> 00:26:15,489
And tell me, you've now got
seven tuk tuk ambulances.

485
00:26:15,930 --> 00:26:18,610
And what other changes have
happened in the village?

486
00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:22,360
So, not, we've set up, we've
got about seven little schools.

487
00:26:22,695 --> 00:26:28,785
Schools with no curriculum, no, no, we've
got tiny little bits of chalkboards that

488
00:26:28,785 --> 00:26:30,794
we write on a little bit with chalk.

489
00:26:30,795 --> 00:26:33,284
We don't introduce anything
into the village that can't be

490
00:26:33,285 --> 00:26:35,545
sustainable or afforded by everybody.

491
00:26:36,015 --> 00:26:38,625
Before we built well, we got
a well between every three

492
00:26:38,625 --> 00:26:40,004
houses for clean water.

493
00:26:40,305 --> 00:26:43,785
We've got toilets, a toilet
between three houses.

494
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:45,669
composting toilets.

495
00:26:45,729 --> 00:26:49,979
People donated 50 and the village
built them and, you know, got it all.

496
00:26:49,990 --> 00:26:53,080
There's a beautiful book called
Where There Is No Doctor and

497
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:54,409
there's offshoots of that.

498
00:26:54,419 --> 00:26:57,809
So, from all the developing countries,
they've put together information,

499
00:26:57,810 --> 00:26:59,340
which I was lucky enough to find.

500
00:26:59,839 --> 00:27:01,620
So, we worked out which toilets to build.

501
00:27:01,620 --> 00:27:04,810
So, we've got sanitation, which
means our children aren't dying.

502
00:27:04,810 --> 00:27:07,760
When I went there, 40 percent of the
children didn't make it to age two,

503
00:27:07,770 --> 00:27:09,110
we'd just be through dirty water.

504
00:27:09,595 --> 00:27:10,625
And now they all live.

505
00:27:10,945 --> 00:27:14,395
We've got schools, I support three
hospitals, I bring doctors and

506
00:27:14,395 --> 00:27:17,475
nurses over to train staff here
in hospital to do civil surgery.

507
00:27:17,475 --> 00:27:20,935
And when I say hospitals, I mean
lean two buildings that have, there's

508
00:27:20,935 --> 00:27:23,864
somebody called a doctor who might have
done three months training somewhere.

509
00:27:23,865 --> 00:27:26,515
But look, that's just been a huge shift.

510
00:27:26,515 --> 00:27:29,615
But COVID's come in and
Giving me huge challenges.

511
00:27:29,615 --> 00:27:33,585
We need to do a reassessment on where
we're at and restart, basically.

512
00:27:34,085 --> 00:27:38,885
Most of my paid staff, I've now, they've
now, I gave them their tuk tuks, if

513
00:27:38,885 --> 00:27:42,984
they're using as ambulances, I gave,
we had a bus, we used to go village

514
00:27:42,984 --> 00:27:44,755
to village with a, with a midwife.

515
00:27:45,310 --> 00:27:48,890
a teacher, some other staff to build
toilets, and we'd go around, we'd go

516
00:27:48,890 --> 00:27:51,810
on the road, and we'd go around and
stay for a couple of nights in each

517
00:27:51,820 --> 00:27:53,810
village and give them some skills.

518
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,529
So, it's 14 years, I don't know where
it's at right now, as with everything

519
00:27:58,530 --> 00:28:00,820
else on earth, COVID's changed everything.

520
00:28:01,289 --> 00:28:04,990
Most of my paid staff are now in
other jobs with other NGOs, and

521
00:28:04,990 --> 00:28:08,080
they're just so grateful that
they developed the skills with me.

522
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,560
I mean, my teachers were 15 year old boys
who came and said, I'll be your teacher.

523
00:28:13,019 --> 00:28:14,400
I said, perfect, when do we start?

524
00:28:14,885 --> 00:28:17,465
So I didn't go with a vision
of what I wanted to do.

525
00:28:17,465 --> 00:28:23,215
I went with a village led concept of what
to teach and that boy had been a monk

526
00:28:23,215 --> 00:28:28,525
for a long time and he'd learned English
and he came outta the monkhood and he'd

527
00:28:28,525 --> 00:28:31,555
only been out about eight months and he
said, I dunno what to do with myself.

528
00:28:31,555 --> 00:28:32,305
I have English.

529
00:28:32,305 --> 00:28:33,355
Can I teach for you?

530
00:28:33,834 --> 00:28:37,374
He ended up setting up in a
village a a little bit of a town.

531
00:28:37,374 --> 00:28:41,145
We ran a computer, I got all
these computers from Australia

532
00:28:41,150 --> 00:28:41,775
and took them hike up.

533
00:28:42,170 --> 00:28:46,214
DHL transports container
loads for me for free.

534
00:28:46,635 --> 00:28:49,625
Of backpacks full of
stuff like it just grew.

535
00:28:49,655 --> 00:28:53,745
It just was phenomenal and the
people in Australia got behind me.

536
00:28:53,745 --> 00:28:56,785
But somehow there's something
about whatever that thing is

537
00:28:56,845 --> 00:28:58,534
that people believe in me.

538
00:28:58,994 --> 00:29:01,105
It works and I think it's authenticity.

539
00:29:01,605 --> 00:29:05,915
I volunteer full time 24 7 on a
call in Cambodia for 10 years and

540
00:29:05,915 --> 00:29:07,594
people can say, but who pays you?

541
00:29:07,595 --> 00:29:11,979
I said, no, I sold my house and,
you know, I lived on 20 a week.

542
00:29:12,350 --> 00:29:14,749
So yeah, you know, and
I love beautiful things.

543
00:29:14,749 --> 00:29:15,949
You've been to my home.

544
00:29:15,949 --> 00:29:17,300
I don't live poorly.

545
00:29:17,300 --> 00:29:21,329
I, I just moderate my lifestyle
to be able to, and I keep working.

546
00:29:21,330 --> 00:29:22,699
I'm 73 and I'm still working.

547
00:29:23,189 --> 00:29:28,959
And what do you think is a good
quality in a person that's in that

548
00:29:28,959 --> 00:29:33,060
sort of environment that, you know,
you had the, the, the Boy, who was a

549
00:29:33,070 --> 00:29:38,230
monk who, you know, then decided to,
to, to give to back to the community.

550
00:29:38,790 --> 00:29:42,800
What sort of qualities did you think
that was in that community that

551
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:48,350
made that work and made that, uh,
generosity happen, do you think?

552
00:29:48,910 --> 00:29:51,750
Okay, so just let's go back to
how I ended up in that village.

553
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:56,130
So Chungi this midwife, she's,
she said to me, sister, we have

554
00:29:56,130 --> 00:29:57,450
to go and work in the villages.

555
00:29:57,450 --> 00:30:01,549
And I said, well, I want to know where
the best, most organized village is.

556
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,150
And she said, no, no, no, sister,
we have to go to the poorest,

557
00:30:05,180 --> 00:30:06,530
most under resourced village.

558
00:30:06,530 --> 00:30:08,910
I said, but that's why they're
poor and under resourced.

559
00:30:08,910 --> 00:30:09,720
They're not motivated.

560
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:11,910
Take me to the best village.

561
00:30:12,410 --> 00:30:14,040
I don't know what, how I got that idea.

562
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:14,780
Do you know what I mean?

563
00:30:14,780 --> 00:30:15,800
I didn't think about it.

564
00:30:16,285 --> 00:30:20,550
So we ended up in a highly motivated
village, where that And that kind

565
00:30:20,550 --> 00:30:25,450
of, when you, when you village chief
and you chief number two have held

566
00:30:25,450 --> 00:30:29,499
it together somehow and grow enough
rice for three quarters of the year

567
00:30:29,499 --> 00:30:31,420
at least, and then they all run out.

568
00:30:31,930 --> 00:30:34,999
I went into a group of people
who are dragging life back

569
00:30:34,999 --> 00:30:36,889
together after Pile Pop Pop.

570
00:30:36,970 --> 00:30:41,440
And that was within the structure
of the people's DNA sort of thing.

571
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,180
You know, they'd already formed
a community that was, look, there

572
00:30:45,180 --> 00:30:46,660
was some atrocities taking place.

573
00:30:46,789 --> 00:30:47,650
Don't get me wrong.

574
00:30:47,650 --> 00:30:47,710
Bye.

575
00:30:48,620 --> 00:30:52,530
But when this boy came, it's a bit like
saying yes to everything again, when this

576
00:30:52,550 --> 00:30:54,130
boy came and said, I want to be a teacher.

577
00:30:54,130 --> 00:30:54,980
I said, how old are you?

578
00:30:54,980 --> 00:30:56,319
I said, he said 15.

579
00:30:56,319 --> 00:30:59,875
I thought, well, I had my first
job at 15, sounds good to me.

580
00:31:00,345 --> 00:31:03,975
I had not, I just felt an honesty
and I felt a willingness to serve.

581
00:31:03,995 --> 00:31:08,595
That's, it's a feeling, it's a feeling of,
you know, I'm offering myself to do this.

582
00:31:08,595 --> 00:31:10,844
And then he said to me, look,
I've got a friend who wants

583
00:31:10,845 --> 00:31:11,785
to get out of the monkhood.

584
00:31:11,785 --> 00:31:14,095
He's been in there since
he was three, he's 21.

585
00:31:14,575 --> 00:31:15,595
His English is great.

586
00:31:15,884 --> 00:31:19,414
If he leaves, leaves, could he come
and live with us and work with us?

587
00:31:19,575 --> 00:31:20,285
I said, sure.

588
00:31:20,295 --> 00:31:20,925
I hadn't even met him.

589
00:31:21,665 --> 00:31:25,535
But you know, there's that feeling in some
people that you just know they're okay.

590
00:31:26,165 --> 00:31:27,795
Yeah, that gut feeling.

591
00:31:27,825 --> 00:31:29,055
I trust that gut.

592
00:31:29,115 --> 00:31:30,665
I've always trusted my gut.

593
00:31:30,725 --> 00:31:33,215
And I don't actually know
that it's ever let me down.

594
00:31:33,714 --> 00:31:36,915
And I've said no to a lot of things
because it didn't feel right.

595
00:31:37,410 --> 00:31:43,440
Now you've used, you've done work not
only in Cambodia, you've also done work

596
00:31:43,450 --> 00:31:49,940
in other parts of the world, uh, that
your training as a doula has supported.

597
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,230
Tell me a little bit about
those other projects as well.

598
00:31:53,895 --> 00:31:58,265
So my Doola work is, I've got,
trained a lot of Doolas, both

599
00:31:58,265 --> 00:31:59,945
birth and death in Thailand.

600
00:32:00,375 --> 00:32:02,965
And that works because there's
a big expat community there.

601
00:32:03,274 --> 00:32:06,465
So I've been lucky enough to train a
lot of expats who have then gone back

602
00:32:06,465 --> 00:32:10,034
to live in their own countries and
have perpetuated and continued the

603
00:32:10,035 --> 00:32:12,204
Doola work or become Doola trainers.

604
00:32:12,204 --> 00:32:15,955
But they usually send people to me for
Doola training online, long distance.

605
00:32:16,415 --> 00:32:21,950
My, not so much as a Doola is, it's a,
Through every which way that I work, I

606
00:32:21,950 --> 00:32:26,710
met somebody else, so Nepal, Myanmar,
people just come to me and say, Hi,

607
00:32:26,740 --> 00:32:31,930
could, could you help, there's just been
a massive flood on the border of Sri

608
00:32:31,930 --> 00:32:37,099
Lanka and, I don't know, wherever I am,
Nepal or India and Nepal, and we lost

609
00:32:37,110 --> 00:32:39,960
4, 000 people last night and they're
all cut off and they've got no rice.

610
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,170
I put it on the internet and say,
help, I need rice for the people

611
00:32:43,180 --> 00:32:47,780
in the floods and that night I got
4, 000, which buys a lot of rice.

612
00:32:48,930 --> 00:32:52,540
Then I was sitting on the plane flying
to Cambodia, and there was an older woman

613
00:32:52,540 --> 00:32:55,990
sitting next to me, and I said, waited
to, I don't like talking in planes.

614
00:32:56,420 --> 00:32:59,780
When we were on touchdown, I said to her,
Hello, my name's Denise, you don't look

615
00:32:59,780 --> 00:33:02,190
like the normal person visiting Cambodia.

616
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:03,060
She was an American woman.

617
00:33:03,060 --> 00:33:06,070
She said, Hi, my name's
Liz, and this is what I do.

618
00:33:06,119 --> 00:33:08,820
And she, and I said, this is
me, and this is what I do.

619
00:33:08,820 --> 00:33:10,645
And she said, Can I come and visit you?

620
00:33:10,735 --> 00:33:11,505
I said yes.

621
00:33:11,545 --> 00:33:12,835
So in three days she was down.

622
00:33:13,305 --> 00:33:16,365
She was a 70 year old woman who
was establishing a leadership

623
00:33:16,375 --> 00:33:20,525
program for women through
universities, volunteer situation.

624
00:33:21,024 --> 00:33:25,685
So Gary and I have been to
China and Nepal, and we opened

625
00:33:25,685 --> 00:33:30,024
up, in Nepal we opened the, the
leadership for women program.

626
00:33:30,495 --> 00:33:33,525
And this was a 70 year old
woman starting something new

627
00:33:33,525 --> 00:33:35,095
and I was so inspired by that.

628
00:33:35,585 --> 00:33:40,865
Me and Ma, we've built dwellings for
when they, when the army's been bombing

629
00:33:40,904 --> 00:33:44,394
villages and we end up with 50 kids
without a roof over their heads because

630
00:33:44,394 --> 00:33:45,615
they've killed all their parents.

631
00:33:46,104 --> 00:33:50,264
Gary crossed the river illegally and
we helped them in gather themselves

632
00:33:50,275 --> 00:33:54,200
emotionally and we built you know, a
dwelling for 50 children to sleep under.

633
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,910
It's got no walls, but at
least it was a roof inside.

634
00:33:57,390 --> 00:34:01,020
I don't know how we meet the
people, but once again I say yes,

635
00:34:01,050 --> 00:34:04,110
and then I say to Gary, Well, how
are we going to do it this time?

636
00:34:04,110 --> 00:34:06,520
And he said, well, you get the
money, I'll cross the river,

637
00:34:06,980 --> 00:34:10,880
illegally, against gunfire,
basically, and we'll make it happen.

638
00:34:11,370 --> 00:34:14,440
And look, you know, I think you've met
Gay, we're not, we don't appear like

639
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,220
they're courageous, outrageous people.

640
00:34:17,339 --> 00:34:21,804
We just say yes, and I feel like I'm
protected in that, you know, we, you know.

641
00:34:21,985 --> 00:34:25,035
We don't, we're not trying to prove
anything to anybody and most people

642
00:34:25,035 --> 00:34:27,725
don't even know we're doing it
except for the people who donate.

643
00:34:27,725 --> 00:34:30,595
I just say I need a dwelling, I've
got 50 kids, nowhere to live, their

644
00:34:30,595 --> 00:34:34,795
parents have been murdered last night,
got any money and then in it flows.

645
00:34:35,184 --> 00:34:37,284
And we're talking little money compared.

646
00:34:37,285 --> 00:34:39,894
I choose not to have
any funding by anybody.

647
00:34:39,945 --> 00:34:41,824
I've had funding and
I've given it all back.

648
00:34:42,294 --> 00:34:45,275
I would have to spend the whole
of my working time filling out

649
00:34:45,275 --> 00:34:46,945
forms and writing documents.

650
00:34:47,260 --> 00:34:48,400
and getting permission.

651
00:34:48,850 --> 00:34:53,670
So the, I've had lots of 40, 000
given to me and I just send it back.

652
00:34:53,790 --> 00:34:54,550
It's too hard.

653
00:34:54,720 --> 00:34:57,190
I'm on call for mummies and
babies and dying people.

654
00:34:57,570 --> 00:34:59,720
I haven't got time to fill
a new form sort of thing.

655
00:35:00,229 --> 00:35:02,149
So that's grant funding
you're referring to?

656
00:35:02,670 --> 00:35:03,300
Say again?

657
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:05,320
That's grant funding you're referring to?

658
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:06,359
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

659
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:07,660
The reporting's phenomenal.

660
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,680
And, you know, I did it for three years
and they said we've changed our mind the

661
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,219
way we wanted, with one organisation.

662
00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:16,889
They wrote to me and said, oh,
we've had a change of the board and

663
00:35:16,889 --> 00:35:18,449
they want you to do it differently.

664
00:35:18,450 --> 00:35:20,429
They want you to go back and
rewrite it for three years.

665
00:35:20,430 --> 00:35:21,909
And I said, here's your 40 grand.

666
00:35:21,980 --> 00:35:23,279
I said, sorry, too hard.

667
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,780
It's just the funding.

668
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:30,030
You know, I used to ask Australians
to give me 50 bucks to build a toilet.

669
00:35:30,455 --> 00:35:33,235
And most people just sent the
50 bucks, there's no question,

670
00:35:33,255 --> 00:35:36,375
didn't need, people wrote and
said, can you take a photo of it?

671
00:35:36,375 --> 00:35:39,655
And can you get a timber board
made and hang my name over it?

672
00:35:40,075 --> 00:35:41,705
And she said, keep your 50 bucks.

673
00:35:41,705 --> 00:35:43,834
You know, number one, I haven't
got any money to give a board

674
00:35:43,835 --> 00:35:45,304
with your name written on it.

675
00:35:45,755 --> 00:35:48,804
And secondly, do you really
need to own somebody's toilet?

676
00:35:49,584 --> 00:35:54,765
So I've villagers that I don't,
there's no grandstanding.

677
00:35:54,775 --> 00:35:57,035
If you don't give me money and
trust, I don't take your money.

678
00:35:57,525 --> 00:35:58,295
And it's worked for me.

679
00:35:58,295 --> 00:36:00,505
It means I can focus on the task.

680
00:36:00,985 --> 00:36:04,075
I can get out with a villager and
dig the hole and get the toilet in

681
00:36:04,075 --> 00:36:05,705
rather than sitting in my office.

682
00:36:05,745 --> 00:36:07,114
Of course, there's no electricity.

683
00:36:07,114 --> 00:36:09,325
I can't charge a laptop.

684
00:36:09,815 --> 00:36:12,634
You know, I can't, I've got to go,
I've got to travel for two hours to

685
00:36:12,635 --> 00:36:16,475
get to a village where I can sit with
intermittent Wi Fi to give you a report.

686
00:36:16,485 --> 00:36:17,685
It's just not doable.

687
00:36:18,005 --> 00:36:21,155
And it's without any concept of
the way I live over there that

688
00:36:21,205 --> 00:36:22,385
people want things from me.

689
00:36:22,875 --> 00:36:25,025
So that's a little of
my life and I love it.

690
00:36:26,390 --> 00:36:29,890
And what gets you out of
bed every morning, Denise?

691
00:36:30,370 --> 00:36:31,470
The sun comes up.

692
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,470
Honestly, it's the sun coming up.

693
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,340
You know, I've just had a really
rough three years and the only thing

694
00:36:36,340 --> 00:36:39,470
that got me through it pain wise was
just knowing the sun had come up.

695
00:36:39,870 --> 00:36:44,440
What gets me up is I've usually
said yes to something yesterday

696
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:45,619
that I've got to do tomorrow.

697
00:36:46,125 --> 00:36:49,565
Gary and I do family, which we love
sitting like we, you know, we light

698
00:36:49,565 --> 00:36:53,525
candles most nights, and we put all
our lovely little dimming lamps.

699
00:36:53,555 --> 00:36:56,235
Well, now since you've been here,
we've set up our house a bit more.

700
00:36:56,265 --> 00:36:59,395
Gary goes around every night
and lights all the nice lights

701
00:36:59,395 --> 00:37:00,625
and maybe sets a candle.

702
00:37:00,625 --> 00:37:06,335
We don't drink these days, but we
just, we, We experience life, I guess,

703
00:37:06,345 --> 00:37:10,335
so getting up in the morning is,
he's probably one of the quietest,

704
00:37:10,335 --> 00:37:11,835
most positive people on earth.

705
00:37:11,835 --> 00:37:16,844
And he'll just greet me with joy every
morning and, Hi babe, how was your night?

706
00:37:16,844 --> 00:37:18,625
And I say, pretty shitty.

707
00:37:18,625 --> 00:37:21,145
And he says, yeah, it's,
mine was a bit rough too.

708
00:37:21,405 --> 00:37:22,335
You ready for breakfast?

709
00:37:22,384 --> 00:37:23,645
Like, I don't know.

710
00:37:23,704 --> 00:37:27,695
There's just a rolling kind of
joie de vivre that feels good.

711
00:37:28,165 --> 00:37:30,695
But it's usually what I've said
yes to yesterday, literally.

712
00:37:31,185 --> 00:37:37,984
And do you think also that it was the
exposure that you've had in those villages

713
00:37:37,995 --> 00:37:46,024
where there is very little, uh, and you're
seeing emotions and actions on a very

714
00:37:46,024 --> 00:37:52,355
base level, uh, almost a primitive level
to a degree in relation to birth, death,

715
00:37:52,725 --> 00:37:55,455
the cycle of life, the sun comes up?

716
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,380
Food needs to be eaten, you know, found.

717
00:37:59,870 --> 00:38:01,680
It very much topped it up.

718
00:38:01,790 --> 00:38:03,120
I felt like I knew it.

719
00:38:03,180 --> 00:38:05,829
I mean, I travelled Australia
in a van myself for a year on

720
00:38:05,830 --> 00:38:08,020
my own and built by the fire.

721
00:38:08,020 --> 00:38:09,420
I had no money or very little money.

722
00:38:09,860 --> 00:38:12,359
But, you know, what you just
said, I mean, how do women get up?

723
00:38:12,775 --> 00:38:17,435
before five and have to forage to find
something to, they cook on an open stove.

724
00:38:17,765 --> 00:38:20,474
They've got to find a, they've got
to boil the water for 10 minutes

725
00:38:20,475 --> 00:38:21,785
before they can cook the rice.

726
00:38:22,275 --> 00:38:24,925
Breakfast has got to be ready
for the family by six so that the

727
00:38:24,925 --> 00:38:27,925
men can get out to work or mostly
the women do the rice field work.

728
00:38:28,405 --> 00:38:31,845
And we've all got to be over by six
o'clock at night because it's black dark.

729
00:38:31,845 --> 00:38:35,895
So there's this, there's
just this methodical survival

730
00:38:35,905 --> 00:38:37,265
skills that's happening.

731
00:38:37,765 --> 00:38:44,135
And in a way, I think early childhood
for me was, I had a mummy and a daddy

732
00:38:44,135 --> 00:38:48,684
and daddy was disturbed post Second
World War and then my mum died and,

733
00:38:49,165 --> 00:38:52,685
but I always felt injustice in the
world and I was never okay with it.

734
00:38:53,184 --> 00:38:56,745
You know, when I'd see that bully
person being bullied or I'd see a poor

735
00:38:56,745 --> 00:38:59,745
person on the street, I think, well,
I could make a sandwich for them.

736
00:39:00,225 --> 00:39:02,455
I think it's just something that I was.

737
00:39:02,755 --> 00:39:06,455
I've encumbered with almost, you
know, that it's not a choice.

738
00:39:06,465 --> 00:39:07,585
It's really hard.

739
00:39:07,585 --> 00:39:10,365
So hence I rarely watch
television or listen to the news.

740
00:39:10,845 --> 00:39:11,855
I never have.

741
00:39:11,855 --> 00:39:13,804
I used to find television disturbing.

742
00:39:14,264 --> 00:39:18,715
I don't find it fascinating watching
a train being wrecked and 45,

743
00:39:18,715 --> 00:39:22,144
000, you know, all these people
being murdered or what's going on.

744
00:39:22,164 --> 00:39:25,734
I'm aware of the wars in the world
and I find it almost crippling.

745
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:27,350
So I choose not to know.

746
00:39:27,860 --> 00:39:30,440
And people say, what
a ridiculous approach.

747
00:39:30,450 --> 00:39:34,660
I say, well, unless I can, unless I have
the capacity to support it in some way,

748
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:36,780
then I'm not willing to be part of it.

749
00:39:36,780 --> 00:39:37,710
I can't think about it.

750
00:39:37,710 --> 00:39:39,920
I'm doing everything I
can at the moment too.

751
00:39:40,019 --> 00:39:42,999
I'm a bit of the one drop in the ocean
girl too, you know, if I can help

752
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,619
one person, they can help the next.

753
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,050
So yeah, look, it's, I'm
just a bit weird, Catherine.

754
00:39:49,100 --> 00:39:53,490
Not the word that I would use to describe
you, Denise, uh, is the word weird.

755
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:59,010
Definitely selfless comes to mind,
uh, and, and unbelievably generous.

756
00:39:59,130 --> 00:40:03,879
Uh, and, and certainly you, you
have been towards me and, and

757
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,600
educating me in the all things doula.

758
00:40:07,170 --> 00:40:12,830
Uh, and is there something about,
you know, living a life that is,

759
00:40:13,150 --> 00:40:19,450
you know, according to when sun's
up and then sun's down, uh, is it?

760
00:40:19,940 --> 00:40:26,280
Putting you more in rhythm to the natural
cycle and seasonal changes of everyday

761
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:31,960
life that perhaps we actually miss
with our, you know, our screens of all

762
00:40:31,970 --> 00:40:36,559
different types and our cars and our
heaters that we could turn on and our

763
00:40:36,559 --> 00:40:38,334
lights that we can switch on and off.

764
00:40:38,505 --> 00:40:40,345
Look, I think it's all of those things.

765
00:40:40,425 --> 00:40:45,165
My natural body rhythm, I'm not a
really morning person but I like to

766
00:40:45,165 --> 00:40:48,695
wake up to see the sun come up but I
don't function for another hour or two.

767
00:40:49,205 --> 00:40:52,894
There is no doubt that my body
intuitively would rather work in

768
00:40:52,894 --> 00:40:56,690
rhythm, I'd rather eat in season,
I'd rather work with the time.

769
00:40:56,720 --> 00:40:58,380
People keep talking about daylight saving.

770
00:40:58,380 --> 00:41:01,130
I think it's the light comes
up and the light goes down.

771
00:41:01,130 --> 00:41:02,370
I don't care what the clock says.

772
00:41:02,370 --> 00:41:03,520
I don't know what you're talking about.

773
00:41:04,060 --> 00:41:07,299
So my body intuitively
is driven very much.

774
00:41:07,300 --> 00:41:09,870
I feel like the, I'm
very much an ocean girl.

775
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:12,110
The waves, the flow of life.

776
00:41:12,730 --> 00:41:16,190
As a nurse, I've had to live in a very
structured society often, you know, and

777
00:41:16,430 --> 00:41:19,470
bells ringing and doing what you've got
to do and going to shifts and things,

778
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,180
but I intuitively prefer to be rhythmic.

779
00:41:22,660 --> 00:41:25,789
I, and it's interesting you should
say that because I just think I

780
00:41:25,789 --> 00:41:28,689
mentioned I'm running a menopause
program and the key thing that

781
00:41:28,689 --> 00:41:30,520
keeps coming in, put the pause in.

782
00:41:30,529 --> 00:41:32,779
There's nobody pausing in life anymore.

783
00:41:32,779 --> 00:41:38,264
Pause at night, just switch off, just
sit quietly and go out on the veranda.

784
00:41:38,415 --> 00:41:41,785
or go out in the backyard, sit
in a chair and look at the sky.

785
00:41:41,795 --> 00:41:43,365
And I learned to do that in Cambodia.

786
00:41:43,365 --> 00:41:45,415
I had no entertainment
except for the stars.

787
00:41:45,425 --> 00:41:46,275
It was black.

788
00:41:46,775 --> 00:41:49,165
But I think we don't pause in life.

789
00:41:49,165 --> 00:41:54,374
We don't sit and have our lunch on our
own in silence, or a lot of people don't.

790
00:41:54,394 --> 00:41:58,054
They don't sit with their cup of coffee
in the morning and have a look in it

791
00:41:58,055 --> 00:41:59,835
and go, wow, that's dark brown today.

792
00:42:00,225 --> 00:42:03,645
We're not observing just our
practices and our, our existence.

793
00:42:03,645 --> 00:42:05,415
And I've naturally do it a lot.

794
00:42:06,290 --> 00:42:10,070
I'm not, I don't set out to be
ritualistic and I'm anything but in lots

795
00:42:10,070 --> 00:42:12,850
of ways, but I'm quite good at pausing.

796
00:42:13,230 --> 00:42:16,560
And when I'm exhausted, I can
just cancel everything and stop.

797
00:42:17,060 --> 00:42:20,070
I don't feel responsible to
others that I've let them down.

798
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:21,549
I just need to stop.

799
00:42:22,020 --> 00:42:26,110
So I think, you know, if we could just
be in the day, you know, wake up and

800
00:42:26,130 --> 00:42:28,260
think, okay, what am I doing today?

801
00:42:28,670 --> 00:42:32,170
nothing preferably, a whole lot,
get out of bed and go and do it.

802
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:37,140
So I can be very motivated and I
can be very still and quiet as well.

803
00:42:37,660 --> 00:42:41,760
Now, I know you've had some health
concerns over the last few years.

804
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:48,630
Do you think that that ability to put in
that hard and fast rule of, no, I just

805
00:42:48,630 --> 00:42:51,420
need to stop is actually driven by that?

806
00:42:51,429 --> 00:42:56,459
Whereas perhaps before you had health
concerns, you may have pushed through?

807
00:42:56,915 --> 00:43:01,155
Look, I know that the year before
I got really unwell, I said

808
00:43:01,155 --> 00:43:02,375
to Gary, I need to come home.

809
00:43:02,395 --> 00:43:02,975
I'm done.

810
00:43:03,165 --> 00:43:04,005
I'm emotionally done.

811
00:43:04,005 --> 00:43:04,855
I'm physically done.

812
00:43:04,875 --> 00:43:09,125
And then I took too long with October
one year, when I came home the October

813
00:43:09,524 --> 00:43:14,454
before COVID, um, I felt like I had
to wind things up, which is the first

814
00:43:14,455 --> 00:43:15,875
time I haven't listened to my body.

815
00:43:16,715 --> 00:43:20,065
Um, so it definitely had an impact
on who I was and what was going on.

816
00:43:20,075 --> 00:43:23,305
And it was, you know, it manifested
itself in pain of all sorts.

817
00:43:25,780 --> 00:43:31,380
But the skills I learnt in the village
of being on my own, silent, quiet, even

818
00:43:31,380 --> 00:43:35,879
though I might get called out for birth
of a child or somebody had cut their head

819
00:43:35,879 --> 00:43:41,350
open, because I was doing general nursing
as well, I have the capacity to shut down.

820
00:43:41,350 --> 00:43:45,060
So when I needed to shut down and be
with my pain, I was very able to do it.

821
00:43:45,380 --> 00:43:47,490
I happen to be a hypnotherapist as well.

822
00:43:47,970 --> 00:43:52,210
So, you know, I'm not a heavily
practicing yogi, but I do it all.

823
00:43:52,700 --> 00:43:57,150
I, I use my breath a lot and I
learned that a long time ago, just,

824
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,900
you know, when I was overwhelmed and
exhausted in life, I'd just go and

825
00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:02,789
lie on the bed and do 10 breaths,
tell myself you're going to be okay.

826
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,729
And getting through being a mum, you know,
and all of that stuff, I'd go, oh my God,

827
00:44:06,729 --> 00:44:09,109
I've just got to get out of here and go
and lie on the bed and do 10 breaths.

828
00:44:09,915 --> 00:44:11,275
And my kids still talk about that.

829
00:44:11,275 --> 00:44:15,445
My kids are sort of mid 40s and
they say, Oh, Mom, it was so,

830
00:44:15,625 --> 00:44:18,355
you know, we remember that, that
you just say, get out of my face.

831
00:44:18,385 --> 00:44:19,475
I'm going to go and breathe.

832
00:44:19,475 --> 00:44:23,305
And I learned it in a workshop a hundred
years ago, working with family planning.

833
00:44:23,825 --> 00:44:27,435
So whatever the question was,
that's some part of the answer.

834
00:44:27,925 --> 00:44:33,775
It's, it's interesting because when I
had my, I went and did a 16 week pain

835
00:44:33,775 --> 00:44:36,345
management course at the Vic Rehab Centre.

836
00:44:36,704 --> 00:44:37,364
And.

837
00:44:37,650 --> 00:44:46,110
It really did bring it back to basics such
as gentle movement, breathing, pacing,

838
00:44:46,530 --> 00:44:54,260
uh, and, and really just being in the, the
moment and not pushing through, uh, and

839
00:44:54,600 --> 00:45:02,000
it sounds simple, but It's not, it's not
easy to do at all, uh, but it was really

840
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:07,280
the, the sort of things that, that I have,
have stuck with me now, with managing

841
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,570
my pain is, is those simple things that
you're mentioning is the breathing.

842
00:45:11,570 --> 00:45:12,330
Absolutely.

843
00:45:12,450 --> 00:45:14,989
The breath gets me through
90 percent of everything.

844
00:45:15,450 --> 00:45:19,860
And, you know, it seems too simple to be
true because you've got to be conscious

845
00:45:19,860 --> 00:45:20,960
of it and you've got to take the effort.

846
00:45:21,420 --> 00:45:23,400
And I was just writing in the course.

847
00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:26,950
It's funny, I just said to them,
just stop, take one breath.

848
00:45:26,979 --> 00:45:28,040
It was just five breaths.

849
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:29,610
I've got it down to
three a lot of the time.

850
00:45:29,610 --> 00:45:33,060
But it's more, and it's not even the,
I believe it's not even the breath.

851
00:45:33,060 --> 00:45:36,019
It's been consciously
participating in something.

852
00:45:36,020 --> 00:45:38,390
You could tap the wall three times,
I think, and it probably worked.

853
00:45:38,890 --> 00:45:42,680
But I know that if we can slow our
brains down and take responsibility

854
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:47,270
for what's going on in our body and
say, wow, I've got extraordinary pain

855
00:45:47,270 --> 00:45:51,019
right now, rather than, oh, oh, oh,
that's terrible, which I can go into.

856
00:45:51,449 --> 00:45:52,710
I know where I learned it.

857
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,839
I learned it being with laboring women.

858
00:45:56,290 --> 00:45:59,750
So I'd be in labor with women who were,
oh, Denise, I can't do this anymore.

859
00:46:00,190 --> 00:46:01,060
Oh, this is awful.

860
00:46:01,060 --> 00:46:02,410
I said, take a breath.

861
00:46:03,035 --> 00:46:03,215
Okay.

862
00:46:04,025 --> 00:46:04,055
Okay.

863
00:46:04,055 --> 00:46:04,855
I said, try.

864
00:46:05,345 --> 00:46:08,255
So then we get to the point they
say, I need an epidural and I

865
00:46:08,295 --> 00:46:10,435
say, okay, well you press the
bell and you ask the nurse for it.

866
00:46:10,445 --> 00:46:11,476
Oh no, you go and get the nurse.

867
00:46:11,476 --> 00:46:14,054
I said, I'm not going to go and get
the nurse, you've got to ask for it.

868
00:46:14,234 --> 00:46:16,765
Oh, suddenly they'd gather
themselves and where's the bell?

869
00:46:16,765 --> 00:46:20,585
Suddenly all this fuss about the pain
stopped and they'd find the bell,

870
00:46:20,585 --> 00:46:23,735
they'd press it and somehow between
that point and when the nurse arrived,

871
00:46:23,735 --> 00:46:25,035
they didn't seem to be in pain.

872
00:46:25,075 --> 00:46:27,335
But then the nurse would say,
oh, go and ring the anesthetist.

873
00:46:27,985 --> 00:46:30,425
And they'd look at me and
say, how long will that be?

874
00:46:30,425 --> 00:46:32,615
I said, I don't know, but just keep
doing what you're doing because

875
00:46:32,615 --> 00:46:35,055
you haven't whinged and bitched
for the last 10 minutes, you know,

876
00:46:35,055 --> 00:46:38,645
you're in, you're in control, you
know, you're doing really well.

877
00:46:39,105 --> 00:46:41,485
Oh, I said, just keep
doing what you're doing.

878
00:46:41,685 --> 00:46:47,045
So then they wind up again and, oh,
help me, I can't do this, oh, oh.

879
00:46:47,545 --> 00:46:49,819
And then they were, and
he said, let's walk in.

880
00:46:50,110 --> 00:46:51,130
And they'd go silent.

881
00:46:51,650 --> 00:46:54,420
And they'd say, now just curl up
on your side or sit a little bit.

882
00:46:54,420 --> 00:46:56,930
I'm just going to put this big needle
in your back and you mustn't move.

883
00:46:57,430 --> 00:46:59,120
So they'd go silent and they didn't move.

884
00:46:59,629 --> 00:47:02,289
I thought, God, the power
of this mind is phenomenal.

885
00:47:02,689 --> 00:47:04,099
We just need instruction.

886
00:47:04,110 --> 00:47:07,399
We need just somebody to do a
little commanding suggestion.

887
00:47:07,919 --> 00:47:11,550
And so through that, and then they'd
curl up and they'd have the, some

888
00:47:11,550 --> 00:47:14,680
of them would feel a bit of pain for
a little while, but They had this

889
00:47:14,730 --> 00:47:16,900
capacity to switch on and off like that.

890
00:47:17,380 --> 00:47:18,520
So that's why I became a hypnotherapist.

891
00:47:18,970 --> 00:47:19,870
And that's why.

892
00:47:19,910 --> 00:47:22,480
That's, I don't have post
operative pain relief.

893
00:47:23,235 --> 00:47:25,115
Quite a few surgeries
in the last three years.

894
00:47:25,495 --> 00:47:28,245
I just, Gary sits and reads
scripts to me and I don't use

895
00:47:28,245 --> 00:47:30,115
any medication post operatively.

896
00:47:30,165 --> 00:47:31,125
I do for the operation.

897
00:47:31,505 --> 00:47:33,885
But it was the women in
labour switching in and out.

898
00:47:33,885 --> 00:47:35,425
I thought, I've got to harness this.

899
00:47:35,425 --> 00:47:39,485
I've got to find a way to do this
with women so they can be more

900
00:47:39,494 --> 00:47:41,074
comfortable or less distressed.

901
00:47:41,074 --> 00:47:42,615
I'm not saying the pain's gone away.

902
00:47:42,625 --> 00:47:44,075
I'm not naive enough to think that.

903
00:47:44,485 --> 00:47:45,735
But make it doable.

904
00:47:46,205 --> 00:47:49,985
It was labouring women that taught
me there was power around pain and

905
00:47:49,985 --> 00:47:51,515
we could take it into ourselves.

906
00:47:51,990 --> 00:47:52,700
That's interesting.

907
00:47:52,700 --> 00:47:56,160
And do you think also the clarity
that you, you know, you're

908
00:47:56,170 --> 00:47:58,660
present for birth and death.

909
00:47:59,150 --> 00:48:02,810
Does that provide you with clarity
on what's important in life?

910
00:48:03,319 --> 00:48:04,230
Oh, absolutely.

911
00:48:04,720 --> 00:48:05,830
Almost nothing's important.

912
00:48:06,340 --> 00:48:10,020
You know, you've got to earn enough money
to eat and live, and you don't see poor

913
00:48:10,020 --> 00:48:14,450
people living very, I, you know, the
whole time I was in Cambodia, 10 years, I

914
00:48:14,450 --> 00:48:16,270
don't think one person complained to me.

915
00:48:16,630 --> 00:48:19,450
They had no clean water, they had no
electricity, they didn't have enough

916
00:48:19,450 --> 00:48:23,530
food, and every day they'd reach me
with the most beautiful smiling faces.

917
00:48:23,550 --> 00:48:25,400
Nobody said me life's tough.

918
00:48:25,910 --> 00:48:30,390
You know, menopause women, a beetle knife,
that was about the only drug they had,

919
00:48:30,390 --> 00:48:35,150
and everybody just got on with, like, when
you need to have to survive, nothing else

920
00:48:35,170 --> 00:48:36,760
matters, and that's what they taught me.

921
00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:41,380
All I need is a roof over my head and
some, a little bit yummier than what I

922
00:48:41,380 --> 00:48:45,510
was eating there, and I'll be okay, you
know, and so the priorities of life.

923
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,630
And look, it was during my nursing
years, I remember one of the

924
00:48:48,630 --> 00:48:50,530
most profound things, I was 19.

925
00:48:51,015 --> 00:48:54,745
I was working intensive care unit
and a 19 year old boy just had a

926
00:48:54,745 --> 00:48:57,505
motorbike accident and came in and died.

927
00:48:57,515 --> 00:49:00,834
And I thought, holy shit, you better get
on with life Denise, it could be tomorrow.

928
00:49:01,015 --> 00:49:02,204
Because I was riding a motorbike.

929
00:49:02,665 --> 00:49:06,095
And that was even more
real than my mother dying.

930
00:49:06,165 --> 00:49:10,395
I thought, wow, young people die
and intensive care taught me that.

931
00:49:10,675 --> 00:49:13,915
Working paediatric units taught
me that it was okay, babies die,

932
00:49:13,925 --> 00:49:16,019
they get cancer, they die at
birth, and that's just how it is.

933
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:17,060
That was the other thing.

934
00:49:17,060 --> 00:49:18,360
There's often a death and a birth.

935
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,200
So there's no doubt that the gift
I've got of working with life in

936
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:26,560
general and observing it, not just
kind of mechanically doing it,

937
00:49:26,570 --> 00:49:29,590
but getting into the essence of
what's happening in front of me.

938
00:49:30,070 --> 00:49:34,384
And what role does spirituality
play for you personally in that?

939
00:49:34,815 --> 00:49:38,415
Look, spirituality for me
is, I am my spirit guide.

940
00:49:38,505 --> 00:49:40,455
I came from a heavy Christian background.

941
00:49:40,925 --> 00:49:45,136
And there was one day when I was in
church and the prayer was, I'm no

942
00:49:45,136 --> 00:49:47,594
longer worthy to be called your son.

943
00:49:47,674 --> 00:49:49,234
I thought, number one, I'm not your son.

944
00:49:49,265 --> 00:49:50,744
And number two, I'm very worthy.

945
00:49:51,204 --> 00:49:53,184
And I walked out of church
and I've never been back.

946
00:49:53,405 --> 00:49:56,635
And I took what I used
to put out in prayer.

947
00:49:56,845 --> 00:50:00,365
And I'm talking when I was 40 and I'm 73.

948
00:50:00,655 --> 00:50:02,885
I realized that I had the powers in me.

949
00:50:02,935 --> 00:50:04,805
I had to ask the questions for myself.

950
00:50:04,815 --> 00:50:07,195
When I asked for guidance,
I had to ask it for myself.

951
00:50:07,665 --> 00:50:14,760
So my spirituality is That I try and
stay clear and I feel like there's an

952
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:18,430
energy in the world and I think, feel
like dead bodies have an energy for

953
00:50:18,430 --> 00:50:21,080
a few hours or days after they die.

954
00:50:21,460 --> 00:50:25,570
And I don't know what to call
that, but spirituality is

955
00:50:25,579 --> 00:50:28,629
very internal and part of me.

956
00:50:29,135 --> 00:50:30,225
And self sustaining.

957
00:50:30,715 --> 00:50:34,505
And tell me a little bit about that,
what you were referring to there about

958
00:50:34,785 --> 00:50:39,355
that it has, the body has some sort
of energy that you've noticed in the

959
00:50:39,365 --> 00:50:41,504
hours, you know, after someone dies.

960
00:50:41,985 --> 00:50:42,965
Probably up to two days.

961
00:50:42,975 --> 00:50:45,604
So it's for some, some people
I feel like they've gone before

962
00:50:45,604 --> 00:50:46,755
they've taken their last breath.

963
00:50:46,794 --> 00:50:49,004
I can't even, it's so hard to describe.

964
00:50:49,144 --> 00:50:51,604
I just think, yep,
nobody's home, not present.

965
00:50:52,370 --> 00:50:52,860
Finished.

966
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:53,320
Done.

967
00:50:53,340 --> 00:50:55,640
They're just hanging around
until that heart and lung stops.

968
00:50:55,790 --> 00:50:58,310
And that's the only way I
could just, I don't know.

969
00:50:58,600 --> 00:50:59,770
I don't hear voices.

970
00:50:59,770 --> 00:51:00,890
I don't see visions.

971
00:51:00,890 --> 00:51:02,689
I don't have spirit talking to me.

972
00:51:03,100 --> 00:51:05,900
I'm not lucky enough if that's a
gift to experience any of that.

973
00:51:05,910 --> 00:51:08,150
And what I say to people say
to me all the time, Oh, Denise,

974
00:51:08,150 --> 00:51:09,639
you must be able to hear.

975
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:11,929
Look, life is busy enough.

976
00:51:11,930 --> 00:51:14,590
I don't need to have people
talking to me from the other side.

977
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:15,370
Do you know what I mean?

978
00:51:15,370 --> 00:51:17,330
I find this world is busy enough.

979
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:19,040
So yeah.

980
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,680
So then there's a time of death.

981
00:51:22,145 --> 00:51:26,445
And then there's a quietening, and
even before I read it in the books,

982
00:51:26,935 --> 00:51:29,565
I used to go and open a window
or a door without even realising.

983
00:51:29,565 --> 00:51:32,584
I often go and stand and look out the
window, and sometimes I just open the

984
00:51:32,585 --> 00:51:37,714
window, and I don't know why, and people
would give me explanations why, but I

985
00:51:37,715 --> 00:51:41,454
try not to have a philosophy or a theory,
because it's different for everybody.

986
00:51:41,965 --> 00:51:45,555
And sometimes, you know, the funeral
director will come and pick up

987
00:51:45,555 --> 00:51:47,025
a body maybe eight hours later.

988
00:51:47,025 --> 00:51:48,865
I think, oh, I don't think
they're ready to go yet.

989
00:51:48,865 --> 00:51:50,645
I'd love to just keep them
for a little bit longer.

990
00:51:50,645 --> 00:51:51,895
I don't say it out loud.

991
00:51:52,365 --> 00:51:56,425
I talk to the body usually afterwards
and say, You know what, you're dead

992
00:51:56,425 --> 00:51:59,055
now, your heart stopped beating,
your lungs have stopped beating.

993
00:51:59,305 --> 00:52:00,845
You do whatever you need to do.

994
00:52:01,345 --> 00:52:05,895
I'm willing to accept every possible
realm of possibility that might

995
00:52:05,895 --> 00:52:07,655
take place after that last breath.

996
00:52:07,995 --> 00:52:11,735
So I want to facilitate everybody's
body to be able to do whatever it

997
00:52:11,765 --> 00:52:13,785
feels like it needs to do in life.

998
00:52:13,824 --> 00:52:15,604
Because they're still on
Earth, so I call it life.

999
00:52:16,084 --> 00:52:17,924
I've had bodies at home
for a couple of days.

1000
00:52:17,924 --> 00:52:21,135
At the end of the two days, I say to
the family, without even thinking about

1001
00:52:21,135 --> 00:52:22,395
it, I say, I think we're done here.

1002
00:52:22,715 --> 00:52:24,714
I think, you know, you can
let him go if you're ready.

1003
00:52:25,180 --> 00:52:28,790
Never felt it beyond about two days,
but I feel like if you think about

1004
00:52:28,790 --> 00:52:32,880
that body, even the decomposition,
like, I didn't think about bodies.

1005
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,570
I mean, we've got bacteria
right around our gut and our

1006
00:52:35,570 --> 00:52:36,929
tummy, and it's still living.

1007
00:52:36,930 --> 00:52:38,549
It doesn't die when we die.

1008
00:52:39,030 --> 00:52:41,439
So there's some sort
of energy taking place.

1009
00:52:41,439 --> 00:52:43,359
You know, that's what decomposition is.

1010
00:52:43,830 --> 00:52:45,990
Because you've got all the bugs in
your tummy taking place, and that's

1011
00:52:45,990 --> 00:52:47,640
where the smells first come from.

1012
00:52:48,140 --> 00:52:51,880
And so, yeah, I just feel like
everything needs a little bit of time.

1013
00:52:52,465 --> 00:52:58,125
To finish, whatever finish on earth
is, and it could be a spiritual realm,

1014
00:52:58,125 --> 00:53:02,105
it could be spirit living body, I
don't know, and I choose not to know.

1015
00:53:02,615 --> 00:53:06,364
I've thought about it so much,
I've studied all religions, I've

1016
00:53:06,365 --> 00:53:10,205
stood on my head to try and have a
capacity of understanding, and I've

1017
00:53:10,205 --> 00:53:15,145
decided it's not my place on earth
to know, I'll know when I'm dead.

1018
00:53:15,595 --> 00:53:17,945
And what is the quiet thing
that you referred to that

1019
00:53:17,945 --> 00:53:19,195
you've read about in books?

1020
00:53:19,740 --> 00:53:24,160
Yeah, look, the, you know, from when
I started this work, there was Kubler

1021
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:27,130
Ross and about three other people
that talked about death will stop.

1022
00:53:27,310 --> 00:53:31,830
You know, there was not much information
out there, whereas now the research says

1023
00:53:31,830 --> 00:53:35,919
the body goes on living for two hours
and, you know, the body goes quiet, the

1024
00:53:35,919 --> 00:53:39,790
body does this, you know, but it's people
philosophizing, selling books, I think.

1025
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,070
Excuse me, I've just hurt myself a little
bit, I've got a little bit of blood.

1026
00:53:43,550 --> 00:53:48,009
Yeah, just quite, people get quiet
before they die and then they get very

1027
00:53:48,009 --> 00:53:52,780
quiet and then after death there's
just this, everything just feels quiet.

1028
00:53:53,150 --> 00:53:54,700
There's that pause again.

1029
00:53:55,170 --> 00:53:58,639
There's just, everybody's breathing
a bit easier even in the room.

1030
00:53:59,109 --> 00:54:02,640
There's nothing radiating out of that
body that's lying in front of me.

1031
00:54:03,135 --> 00:54:06,885
I'm usually breathing a bit shallowly
if I bother to notice and there's

1032
00:54:06,885 --> 00:54:08,985
just this energy shift of quietness.

1033
00:54:09,475 --> 00:54:11,025
And that way things can happen.

1034
00:54:11,025 --> 00:54:12,845
We can integrate the feelings.

1035
00:54:12,845 --> 00:54:17,065
We can, you know, if somebody is howling,
lying, everybody, I say have a really

1036
00:54:17,065 --> 00:54:21,325
good cry and then just sit back on your
chair and just go quiet for a minute.

1037
00:54:21,825 --> 00:54:24,455
And once again, it's that once
you give people a little bit of

1038
00:54:24,455 --> 00:54:27,755
instruction, they go, Oh, am I allowed
to sit back and not cry anymore?

1039
00:54:28,225 --> 00:54:31,680
It's sort of like You know,
we, we, nobody's guiding us.

1040
00:54:31,720 --> 00:54:35,030
I mean, I, I sometimes feel like
a spirit guide, you know, that's

1041
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:38,650
guiding another person's spirit
into just being able to be.

1042
00:54:39,079 --> 00:54:47,179
With your, you know, your experience of
being there at birth and at death, what

1043
00:54:47,179 --> 00:54:49,520
has it taught you about your own death?

1044
00:54:50,190 --> 00:54:56,145
Yeah, look, Being at birth with the
first breath, which isn't always

1045
00:54:56,185 --> 00:55:00,345
there, and it takes some time to
come, it's the same energy in the

1046
00:55:00,345 --> 00:55:02,175
little baby's body that I feel.

1047
00:55:02,395 --> 00:55:04,664
If the cords still attach,
it feels differently.

1048
00:55:04,664 --> 00:55:11,080
But if it's been cut, you're sitting with
an inert object that's exactly like A dead

1049
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:12,870
body, until it takes its first breath.

1050
00:55:13,470 --> 00:55:15,180
Once the cord's cut, that is.

1051
00:55:15,350 --> 00:55:17,660
And it just, it's a miracle.

1052
00:55:17,700 --> 00:55:20,980
I don't know how we get a baby inside us.

1053
00:55:21,419 --> 00:55:24,989
It gets born and then it goes through
all these growing up phases and it

1054
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:29,949
sort of deteriorates and gets to a
point where you just stop breathing.

1055
00:55:30,510 --> 00:55:32,200
And I'm sorry, I'm very deep in thought.

1056
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:34,540
I'm having trouble remembering what
you're asking me because I'm letting

1057
00:55:34,540 --> 00:55:36,360
myself really go into my real feelings.

1058
00:55:36,900 --> 00:55:39,910
Just what, what has it, what has
it taught you about your own death?

1059
00:55:40,410 --> 00:55:42,210
On my own death, nothing to be scared of.

1060
00:55:42,570 --> 00:55:42,930
Nothing.

1061
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:45,930
It's a journey between now and
then, and I'm a bit terrified.

1062
00:55:45,950 --> 00:55:47,340
What are you going to
go through to get there?

1063
00:55:47,340 --> 00:55:48,600
You'll have experienced pain.

1064
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:50,629
You're, you know, you'll
have experienced recovery.

1065
00:55:51,100 --> 00:55:55,740
So I sort of have been excited about
finding out what is on the other side.

1066
00:55:55,740 --> 00:55:58,910
I'm philosophised, and everybody
tells me that they know.

1067
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,835
But I'm very interested to try
and work out what What it will be

1068
00:56:02,835 --> 00:56:04,835
like to be, to know you're dying.

1069
00:56:04,835 --> 00:56:07,655
If somebody says to me, I have
had cancer a couple of times,

1070
00:56:07,655 --> 00:56:08,905
but I knew I wasn't dying.

1071
00:56:09,335 --> 00:56:11,675
If somebody says, you know
what, Denise, this is your time.

1072
00:56:11,925 --> 00:56:12,444
This is it.

1073
00:56:12,525 --> 00:56:14,625
I think, you know, it's all over.

1074
00:56:14,904 --> 00:56:18,445
If I was lucky enough to be
told that, or if from frailing

1075
00:56:18,445 --> 00:56:20,214
old age, I just slip away.

1076
00:56:20,715 --> 00:56:22,795
I feel like I've got a little
bit of excitement about

1077
00:56:22,815 --> 00:56:24,235
Goody, I'll finally find out.

1078
00:56:24,885 --> 00:56:26,975
One of the, uh, the questions answered.

1079
00:56:27,475 --> 00:56:31,395
Yeah, and then I, I say to everybody in
class and then I'll haunt you, all you

1080
00:56:31,435 --> 00:56:35,905
people who hear voices, I'll come back
and tell you the truth about what happens.

1081
00:56:35,905 --> 00:56:42,495
What do you think in your experience is
the most challenging thing that families

1082
00:56:42,995 --> 00:56:46,134
or even someone who's dying face?

1083
00:56:46,570 --> 00:56:46,730
Guilt.

1084
00:56:47,370 --> 00:56:48,830
Both families and the dying people.

1085
00:56:49,330 --> 00:56:53,610
The thing that keeps people alive and
having long, hard deaths is guilt.

1086
00:56:54,100 --> 00:56:58,319
So if I can say to them, whoever they
are, whatever it is, tell me your secret.

1087
00:56:58,820 --> 00:57:00,100
What do you mean I don't have secrets?

1088
00:57:00,409 --> 00:57:03,699
What is the thing that you can't
say out loud that you'd wish

1089
00:57:03,700 --> 00:57:06,560
you'd not done in life, or you're
sorry about, or you wish you could

1090
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:07,935
tell somebody you're sorry about?

1091
00:57:07,935 --> 00:57:09,520
It's guilt, guilt, guilt.

1092
00:57:09,650 --> 00:57:13,050
And for the family, it's about, Oh,
I should have come home yesterday.

1093
00:57:13,050 --> 00:57:14,220
I didn't know Dad was so sick.

1094
00:57:14,220 --> 00:57:16,879
And it's just guilt, guilt,
guilt, guilt, guilt, guilt.

1095
00:57:17,405 --> 00:57:23,545
And so, you know what, today's today,
let it go, take a breath, you know,

1096
00:57:23,695 --> 00:57:27,735
there's nothing, don't bother, it's
a waste of time, you know, and I had

1097
00:57:27,735 --> 00:57:29,334
to learn that too in my own life.

1098
00:57:29,334 --> 00:57:33,755
It took me a long time into being a very
mature woman to go, you know what, it's

1099
00:57:33,864 --> 00:57:39,165
okay, move past it, say sorry to people
if you need to, but you know, let it go.

1100
00:57:39,655 --> 00:57:42,085
The sun comes up tomorrow
and you start a new day.

1101
00:57:42,555 --> 00:57:47,085
And is that how you've
tried to live your life?

1102
00:57:47,585 --> 00:57:48,705
Very much, very much.

1103
00:57:48,705 --> 00:57:51,605
Fortunately, I don't have a
lot of regrets in life, if any.

1104
00:57:52,275 --> 00:57:56,375
And I don't, I have a little bit, I have
a bit of guilt around being a mother and

1105
00:57:56,375 --> 00:57:59,555
if I'd known what I know now, I would have
done things differently, you know, there's

1106
00:57:59,585 --> 00:58:04,745
definitely, definitely guilt and a lot of
it's around losing my temper or not being

1107
00:58:04,785 --> 00:58:09,284
patient enough or not having the capacity
to be patient, locking in my room for

1108
00:58:09,354 --> 00:58:12,884
10 more breaths more regularly, probably
that's some of my biggest guilt, but

1109
00:58:13,024 --> 00:58:15,444
I've talked lots to my kids about that.

1110
00:58:15,935 --> 00:58:19,095
Sometimes I don't want to talk about it,
sometimes I really want to talk about it.

1111
00:58:19,105 --> 00:58:22,475
So giving them the time to be
angry with me if they need to be or

1112
00:58:22,475 --> 00:58:24,094
disappointed in something I said.

1113
00:58:24,795 --> 00:58:26,155
I'm owning your shit, you know.

1114
00:58:26,685 --> 00:58:30,564
Just, just own it and go, you know
what, you're really pathetic yesterday

1115
00:58:30,564 --> 00:58:32,215
Denise with what you said to Gary.

1116
00:58:32,705 --> 00:58:38,255
Get out there and say, sorry, I was really
out of control yesterday and I'm sorry if

1117
00:58:38,255 --> 00:58:41,305
I hurt you and let me know if it's okay.

1118
00:58:41,780 --> 00:58:42,760
You just own it.

1119
00:58:42,790 --> 00:58:43,690
Just be with it.

1120
00:58:43,690 --> 00:58:46,930
And just, and so then, you
know, people say, well, that's

1121
00:58:46,930 --> 00:58:48,000
just copping out of guilt.

1122
00:58:48,060 --> 00:58:49,590
I said, but there's
nothing to be guilty of.

1123
00:58:49,659 --> 00:58:52,559
He can choose to not accept my
apology and I don't mind that.

1124
00:58:52,570 --> 00:58:53,079
That's fine.

1125
00:58:53,079 --> 00:58:56,890
He doesn't have to tell me I'm okay, but
I just want him to know I was out of line.

1126
00:58:57,390 --> 00:58:58,540
And I recognize that.

1127
00:58:59,020 --> 00:59:03,360
There's something in that about the
fact that you are happy to put it out

1128
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:05,100
there and acknowledge your own behavior.

1129
00:59:05,590 --> 00:59:09,260
And it's not dependent on someone
else's response on that behavior.

1130
00:59:10,235 --> 00:59:11,395
That's when you own it.

1131
00:59:11,715 --> 00:59:12,525
That's when you're willing.

1132
00:59:12,565 --> 00:59:14,565
And that's the freedom of life, I call it.

1133
00:59:15,145 --> 00:59:20,004
When you can finally go, I'm not perfect,
I've got foibles, I've been unfair,

1134
00:59:20,005 --> 00:59:24,484
I've been unjust, I've been hurtful, I'm
really sorry I let my feelings and my

1135
00:59:24,484 --> 00:59:26,125
emotions get out of control around that.

1136
00:59:26,625 --> 00:59:29,615
And it was nothing probably about
you at all, but you got the blame

1137
00:59:29,615 --> 00:59:31,075
for it, or you got the down load.

1138
00:59:31,465 --> 00:59:33,385
And just recognising
that you're not perfect.

1139
00:59:33,695 --> 00:59:37,875
I mean, I'm anything, anything
but in control of everything in

1140
00:59:37,875 --> 00:59:41,612
my life, but I'm willing every
day to try a bit harder to be.

1141
00:59:42,090 --> 00:59:43,470
Otherwise I can't do this work.

1142
00:59:43,770 --> 00:59:46,520
I can't be safe in people's
worlds in vulnerable times.

1143
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:49,800
I have, doulas have to
take responsibility.

1144
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,390
And a big part of the 10 week
training course is personal growth.

1145
00:59:53,900 --> 00:59:58,739
I step people through their
processes and we have to say, yep,

1146
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:00,059
I'm willing to earn it at the end.

1147
01:00:00,060 --> 01:00:03,380
And of course it's a lifelong mission
to keep doing that, but that's the

1148
01:00:03,380 --> 01:00:04,760
biggest part of the doula training.

1149
01:00:05,245 --> 01:00:06,215
I'd believe that.

1150
01:00:06,665 --> 01:00:11,925
And do you have any advice for
anyone who's, or even encouragement

1151
01:00:12,145 --> 01:00:16,424
for people who are actually sort
of thinking about a time where they

1152
01:00:16,675 --> 01:00:21,124
may be facing a terminal illness or
when someone close to them might be?

1153
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:26,280
Yeah, look, first of all, get the actual
facts, you know, it's too often doctors

1154
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:31,290
dish out words and sayings or, you
know, talk to yourself, get the facts

1155
01:00:31,290 --> 01:00:35,820
from the medicals and then sit down and
the first thing I say to people is, I

1156
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:37,250
say to them, are you living or dying?

1157
01:00:37,755 --> 01:00:41,845
So I say, when you get your
terminal illness diagnosis, sit

1158
01:00:41,845 --> 01:00:43,545
down and decide what you want to do.

1159
01:00:43,575 --> 01:00:47,425
I don't believe in fighting cancer or
any of those words that are being used.

1160
01:00:47,905 --> 01:00:51,605
Are you ready for this illness to take
over your body or do you want to put

1161
01:00:51,635 --> 01:00:55,844
in place something deep within you
that might support you in getting well,

1162
01:00:56,334 --> 01:00:58,225
might support you in getting well?

1163
01:00:58,645 --> 01:00:59,985
I've got no magic wands.

1164
01:00:59,985 --> 01:01:01,775
I can't tell people I can get them well.

1165
01:01:01,775 --> 01:01:06,234
You know, I read things on the internet
and be, this will cure your cancer.

1166
01:01:06,745 --> 01:01:10,395
Cure comes from within
and so do you want to die?

1167
01:01:10,405 --> 01:01:11,155
Is it time?

1168
01:01:11,155 --> 01:01:13,105
And so many people say,
yeah, Denise, it is.

1169
01:01:13,105 --> 01:01:13,725
I'm done.

1170
01:01:13,955 --> 01:01:15,074
I'm okay with it.

1171
01:01:15,114 --> 01:01:16,635
You know, but nobody asks them.

1172
01:01:17,124 --> 01:01:18,385
They say, thanks for asking.

1173
01:01:18,385 --> 01:01:19,585
I didn't even think about it.

1174
01:01:20,075 --> 01:01:25,114
So when you get your diagnosis, sit
down, take a, you know, even before

1175
01:01:25,115 --> 01:01:29,044
you say yes to chemo or have your
first chemo treatment or radio or

1176
01:01:29,044 --> 01:01:34,444
surgery, just even if it's one night,
sit with yourself, preferably under

1177
01:01:34,444 --> 01:01:36,224
the moon and just say to yourself.

1178
01:01:36,595 --> 01:01:38,565
What are my needs and wants around this?

1179
01:01:38,565 --> 01:01:39,685
Do I want to live or die?

1180
01:01:40,165 --> 01:01:41,245
People sort of fall over.

1181
01:01:41,275 --> 01:01:42,175
They say, I can't do that.

1182
01:01:42,175 --> 01:01:42,754
I don't know how to do it.

1183
01:01:42,755 --> 01:01:43,625
I said, just try it.

1184
01:01:43,765 --> 01:01:46,435
Sit under the moon and say to
yourself, do you want to live or die?

1185
01:01:46,704 --> 01:01:47,995
Because the answer comes up.

1186
01:01:48,495 --> 01:01:51,575
No matter how suppressed you've
been, most people will, you know,

1187
01:01:51,575 --> 01:01:54,624
will, they'll say to me, I don't,
I don't ever say, did you do it?

1188
01:01:54,624 --> 01:01:55,974
I don't check up on people ever.

1189
01:01:56,464 --> 01:02:00,815
But so many people will say to me a
week later, wow, I did that thing.

1190
01:02:01,265 --> 01:02:02,255
I'm happy to have chemo.

1191
01:02:02,265 --> 01:02:03,355
I'm going to work with getting well.

1192
01:02:03,820 --> 01:02:07,270
So it's work with getting, well,
it's all the terminology that I use

1193
01:02:07,630 --> 01:02:11,410
because not everybody got the ha the
capacity to heal themselves and be,

1194
01:02:11,410 --> 01:02:15,160
you know, revolutionaries and get rid
of multiple cancers in their body.

1195
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:19,540
You know, but I say you've got, you've
got a right to make a choice or would you

1196
01:02:19,545 --> 01:02:23,560
rather just curl up and die, probably be
dead in eight weeks without all the fast.

1197
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:24,160
Yep.

1198
01:02:24,220 --> 01:02:24,880
I'll do that one.

1199
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:25,450
Thank you.

1200
01:02:25,660 --> 01:02:27,100
Thank you for helping decide.

1201
01:02:27,765 --> 01:02:29,285
So it's just been really clear.

1202
01:02:29,625 --> 01:02:32,435
And I say to people, why do
you think you've got cancer?

1203
01:02:32,945 --> 01:02:35,744
I often think our autoimmune
systems are knocked around because

1204
01:02:35,744 --> 01:02:37,305
of huge stresses in our lives.

1205
01:02:37,635 --> 01:02:40,015
And I say, are you willing
to give up all the stress?

1206
01:02:40,715 --> 01:02:43,945
Are you willing, I mean most doctors
retire when they get a cancer

1207
01:02:43,945 --> 01:02:45,515
diagnosis and get on with living.

1208
01:02:46,015 --> 01:02:48,475
And they often live way
beyond their diagnosis.

1209
01:02:48,854 --> 01:02:53,675
So, are you willing to try the pause
again I guess, are you willing to

1210
01:02:53,684 --> 01:02:56,744
give up everything that you're doing
now because that's not working for

1211
01:02:56,744 --> 01:02:57,964
you it seems, you've got cancer.

1212
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:04,860
Would you like to try a simple life,
maybe eat seasonally and just be well?

1213
01:03:05,340 --> 01:03:07,250
Oh, I can't be well, I've
got cancer, so we'll try it.

1214
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:11,680
And you know, by bringing it down
to no special this diet or that

1215
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:13,690
diet or this or you've got to drink.

1216
01:03:13,690 --> 01:03:15,910
I mean, I had a beautiful midwife.

1217
01:03:16,410 --> 01:03:20,200
She drank urine, for God's sake,
for two weeks and went on a water

1218
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:23,600
flask for 30 days and still died
in the documented eight weeks.

1219
01:03:23,610 --> 01:03:26,990
You know, we all, there's nobody
ever lived out this brain cancer.

1220
01:03:27,279 --> 01:03:31,240
She could have been at home with her five
children having a ball, you know, anyway.

1221
01:03:31,730 --> 01:03:35,630
But, you know, guidance wasn't there
till too late, you know, she didn't reach

1222
01:03:35,630 --> 01:03:37,560
out to find somebody who knew something.

1223
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:40,850
Look, to be really honest with
you, Catherine, there's not many

1224
01:03:40,850 --> 01:03:43,970
people that have my experience, you
know, across cultures and across,

1225
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:45,410
you know, with no doctors around.

1226
01:03:45,890 --> 01:03:49,189
So I have the lucky gift of being
able to pull some information out

1227
01:03:49,190 --> 01:03:53,260
of my head that is different to
most people in Western cultures.

1228
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:56,950
And it's just my gift that I want
to share with everybody, hence I

1229
01:03:56,950 --> 01:03:58,390
said to you, do you want to come?

1230
01:03:58,895 --> 01:04:00,115
I mean, do you want to come to the calls?

1231
01:04:00,115 --> 01:04:02,855
I just try and expose everybody
to a little bit of information.

1232
01:04:03,325 --> 01:04:09,515
And I can't thank you enough for sharing
what's in your head, uh, and a little bit

1233
01:04:09,515 --> 01:04:12,255
of your experience, uh, with us all today.

1234
01:04:12,735 --> 01:04:13,775
Thanks, Catherine.

1235
01:04:13,775 --> 01:04:16,565
I look forward to talk
to you some other time.

1236
01:04:17,055 --> 01:04:18,585
Oh, we certainly shall.

1237
01:04:18,955 --> 01:04:20,135
Thank you so much.

1238
01:04:20,535 --> 01:04:21,645
A pleasure and a joy.

1239
01:04:21,675 --> 01:04:22,275
Bye bye now.

1240
01:04:25,015 --> 01:04:28,435
We hope you enjoyed today's
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1241
01:04:28,745 --> 01:04:30,335
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1242
01:04:31,265 --> 01:04:35,524
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1243
01:04:35,525 --> 01:04:37,455
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1244
01:04:37,635 --> 01:04:40,035
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1245
01:04:40,175 --> 01:04:42,935
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1246
01:04:43,010 --> 01:04:47,300
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1247
01:04:47,300 --> 01:04:49,010
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1248
01:04:49,310 --> 01:04:50,660
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1249
01:04:50,810 --> 01:04:51,800
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1250
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:55,730
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1251
01:04:55,730 --> 01:05:01,940
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