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About this episode
In this deeply moving episode, we explore the heart-wrenching journey of Sarah Eagle, a neurodivergent public speaker and consultant, who lost her brother Ben to schizophrenia. Sarah's story is a powerful testament to how profound loss can lead to transformative change and a lifelong commitment to mental health advocacy.
Sarah takes us through the harrowing experience of Ben's disappearance in the Australian bush and the subsequent search that ended in tragedy. She shares the raw emotions of grief and the pivotal moment when she chose to channel her pain into purpose. This decision led her on a series of extraordinary journeys, including a 600-kilometre walk along the Bibbulmun track and a solo pilgrimage on the Camino de Santiago, all in memory of Ben and to raise awareness for mental health.
As Sarah's story unfolds, we discover how her own late diagnosis of autism and ADHD became a turning point, offering her a new perspective on her experiences and shaping her approach to helping others. Her work now focuses on supporting neurodivergent individuals and their families, using innovative approaches like Polyvagal Theory and what she terms 'sensory lifestyle medicine' to create understanding and foster better communication.
Sarah's journey reminds us that even in our darkest moments, there is potential for growth, healing, and positive impact. Her story is a beacon of hope for anyone grappling with loss or struggling to support a loved one with mental health challenges.
Show notes
Guest Bio
Neurodivergent Public Speaker and Consultant
Sarah supports companies to create a culture of belonging, and neurodivergent people to transition from chaos to joy. Soon to provide scuba diving experiences for ND people.
Sarah received a late diagnosis of Neurodivergent in her 40s. Which changed her life and how she manages life. She has a long history of working in mental health and in corporate now she brings the three together. Neurodivergent – Mental Health – Corporate
Sarah holds a BA in Psychology with Honours and has deferred PHD in e-framing mental illness in a new way to combat stigma. Sarah also won the New South Wales Northern Tablelands Woman of the Year in 2014. Raising vital funds for mental health issues.
She provides private consultations for late diagnosed neurodivergent people; corporate programs to imbed a culture of belonging; evidence based programs and courses for neurodivergent people.
Sarah Eagle was ambassador for SANE Australia.
In 2001, Sarah's brother Ben went missing in the Australian bush, during his final psychotic episode. His body was never found, although a death certificate was issued. Since then Sarah has been actively and passionately raising awareness of the complex and emotive issues surrounding mental illness. Sarah's brother Ben, was one of the millions of Australians who have or will suffer from mental illness at some stage in their lives.
Summary
Key Points from the Episode:
- The challenges of supporting a loved one with schizophrenia and navigating the mental health system
- How grief can be transformed into a force for positive change and community building
- The importance of self-care for carers and family members of those with mental health issues
- The impact of a late diagnosis of neurodivergence on understanding oneself and past experiences
- Innovative approaches to mental health support, including Polyvagal Theory and sensory lifestyle medicine
- The power of walking and pilgrimage as a means of processing grief and raising awareness
Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine
Transcript
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For me it was a compulsion.
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It was not a choice, this crossroads.
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It was, but I was not going to choose
the path of being bitter and twisted.
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I wanted to give Ben's death meaning as
a means of making sense of it for me,
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that his death, his death, Tremendous
suffering to die on your own, terrified ... Read More
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00:00:01,500 --> 00:00:03,250
For me it was a compulsion.
2
00:00:03,470 --> 00:00:05,480
It was not a choice, this crossroads.
3
00:00:05,810 --> 00:00:11,229
It was, but I was not going to choose
the path of being bitter and twisted.
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00:00:11,909 --> 00:00:16,660
I wanted to give Ben's death meaning as
a means of making sense of it for me,
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that his death, his death, Tremendous
suffering to die on your own, terrified
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of friends and family in the forest
because the mental health system is shit.
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It's not good enough.
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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a
podcast encouraging open conversations
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about dying and the death of a loved one.
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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to
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bring your stories of death to life.
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back to life.
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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.
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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations
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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.
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We pay our respects to their
elders, past, present and emerging.
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And extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First
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Nation peoples around the globe.
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Today, I'm speaking with Sarah Eagle.
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Sarah is a neurodivergent
public speaker and consultant.
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She supports companies to
create a culture of belonging.
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and neurodivergent people to
transition from chaos to joy.
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I had the pleasure of meeting Sarah
at a recent networking session.
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Thanks for being with us, Sarah.
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It's my absolute pleasure, Catherine.
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Thank you for inviting me along.
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Now, Sarah, we got chatting recently
and you told me about Your experience
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when your brother died, are you
comfortable to share that story?
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Yeah, I'm really
comfortable to share that.
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So my brother, Ben, he lived with
schizophrenia for many years.
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He was diagnosed as a teen and he
had a fair bit of support with it.
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He had a psychiatrist, uh, this
was in the eighties and nineties.
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So there wasn't internet to Google things.
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We didn't have support as
a family to understand.
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What schizophrenia was, it was just this.
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His behavior would become really
unusual a couple of times a year, like
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scarily, like we were scared for him.
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That was well managed there for a while,
like through most of the year he'd
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be okay, and usually around Christmas
he would become really unwell with
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hallucinations and really high levels
of paranoia, and he managed to hold
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down a full-time job as a gardener.
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And had a busy social life.
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Friends.
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Didn't ever really go near
drugs, that was never his thing.
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And then in 2000 he saved up
to travel on his own through
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Europe and he came back home.
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He was there for six weeks and
came back home really tired.
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Maybe from the jet lag and the travelling.
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And he was really, really ill.
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Um, well, again, and that was really
the beginning of the end for him.
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He was 29, I guess the schizophrenia at
that point had really overtaken his brain.
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And we really did try to get him
support, but again, back then
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there really wasn't much available.
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We couldn't access things as
readily as people can now.
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Information in particular, I
remember I took him to the.
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a psychiatric, like, emergency one day
because it was really frightening and
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I needed, we needed to get him help.
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And he was hallucinating the whole way.
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He could see lights, bright lights, and
these creatures were coming for him.
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And fortunately I could get him to the
hospital and the hospital didn't really
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treat him with much dignity or kindness.
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In our view, in the family's view, he
was gravely unwell, but the hospital.
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Just said it was up to me to decide,
do we want to admit him or not, making
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it really clear if he was admitted, he
would get much worse because he'd be
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around people who are more sick than him.
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I didn't know much about the mental
health landscape at that time.
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I didn't know much about stigma or how
much funding goes into mental health.
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And I kind of went with what the
experts were sort of saying that
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you're better off taking him home.
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So that's the option I chose.
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So I took Ben home and we had the
crisis assessment team come out
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to him a couple of times a day.
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But the issue with that was they
would send different people out.
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So when you're dealing with
somebody who's very paranoid.
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I could never establish
a rapport with him.
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So he became increasingly unwell
and we were reporting that back,
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but we weren't being listened to
because he was over the age of 18
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or so many other things happening.
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You know, they couldn't because
of the legislation, they can't.
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Take on board so much what family are
saying and they have to weigh it up in
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comparison to other people that they're
tending to But that triage system,
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so eventually we found he was running
across We were living in a pain highway
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in Moorabbin and he was running across
the main road there in during peak hour
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And he couldn't recognize us anymore.
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The schizophrenia really was, I don't
know if you know much about schizophrenia.
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It's when the senses are really
lying to the person so you could
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see things that aren't there.
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You can hear things that aren't
there, but the brain cannot
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tell whether it's real or not.
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So it's very real for the person.
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And so poor Ben was in
that really distressed.
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Space where there's not
one person in the world.
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Could he feel that love and connection
with, because his brain is absolutely
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overfiring and not functioning.
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He was running across
the freeway in peak hour.
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And we thought this is, if he gets
hit by a car that will destroy
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him and it will destroy the person
driving, we have to get him.
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Somewhere safe.
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And the hospital wouldn't take him.
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There was nowhere else to
take him that we knew of.
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And so we took him, or my dad
took him up to Tangelbren, which
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is up in Mount Bawble, Victoria.
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And dad built a house up
there when he was about 18.
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Dad's now 87.
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This little humble shack in the
rainforest, a beautiful place
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that we've spent a lot of time
as kids going up there a lot.
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And usually that would be a beautiful,
peaceful place that would calm Ben down.
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But unfortunately, within a couple of
days, he went running out into the bush.
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He went, I think maybe on the second
day, he ran out and he came back, but
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he was covered in leeches and cuts.
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And then he went out a second time.
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This was, I think, like a
Wednesday evening in summer.
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So January, 2001.
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And dad called me at three
o'clock in the morning.
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Ben's gone out and he hasn't come back.
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So I drove up thinking, oh,
Ben will be starving when he
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comes back in the morning.
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So I went to the 24 hour supermarket
and got heaps of leeches Food to cook
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up a feed for dad, his, Ben's best
friend, Yui, who was there and for Ben
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thinking, you know, they need some support
up there and we can not for a second
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did I think we'd never see Ben again.
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And I got up and the sun was just coming
up and the first police car was there.
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So dad had obviously called the
police to notify we've got an unwell
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man who's now out in the forest,
pulled up next to the police car.
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And I didn't think much of it.
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I just thought, this is a bit dramatic.
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Ben will be really embarrassed about this.
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I said, hey, went up, saw Dad and
Yui and cooked them breakfast.
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And then with the town, which
is tiny, it has one little shop.
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It only opens in winter.
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By about 11 in the morning,
there would have been two or
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300 people there searching.
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Or the search was starting.
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I think we had lots of SES walkers,
volunteers, walking groups, police.
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It became a little hub of searching.
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They had sniffer dogs and they'd
set out sand traps during the day.
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They knew that he was paranoid,
so he would have been hiding.
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So they put sand on the ground
so they could find footprints
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if he was moving around.
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And so, unfortunately, They
didn't have any luck finding him.
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They did find his tracksuit pants
with his medication early on.
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And then it was really a waiting game.
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You know, where every moment
you just don't know, it was
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like really living a nightmare.
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That every moment you don't know
whether they're going to find
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him, is he going to be okay?
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Or is he going to be
very sick, very wounded?
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Has he got an injury or
is he going to be dead?
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You're living in that state from one
moment, one second to the next, not
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knowing how is this going to play out.
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That must have been horrific.
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Yeah, it really was horrific.
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Kind of experience, I think,
leaves a scar that is so deep.
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It's so permanent, that panic,
that sense of deep helplessness
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that I cannot resolve this.
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And how old were you, Sarah?
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I was 26 at the time.
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Yeah.
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Wow.
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And so you go through that with, you know,
the, all the police and the search crew,
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everybody initially is sort of, we'll be
right, we'll get there, we'll find Ben.
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And then over the days people, you
can see it, you can just see that it's
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summer, there's not much water, but
the police constantly evaluate how long
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might this person be able to survive
out there and under these conditions.
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So we always knew that there's a deadline
that they have to stop the search,
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looking for somebody who's alive.
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And then transition to look
for somebody who's passed away.
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The sound of that death
clock is so loud internally.
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The search party, the police, you can see
their demeanor change as that deadline
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in the truest sense of the word is
approaching and they can't look you in
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the eye because they personally, like it's
so, it's, it's devastating for everybody.
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People who are there searching
because they're out there in the
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forest, you know, hacking away.
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It was a really dense forest.
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Until, you know, they
can't look you in the eye.
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It's just too much for everybody.
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Hope is gone because there's
no way you could have survived
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after a certain amount of time.
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Do you remember what time frame where
they came to you as the family and said,
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This is no longer an active search.
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This is more a recovery.
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So they kind of, I guess, prepared
us for that from the get go.
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Okay.
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They were very transparent.
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This is what we are doing.
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And if we don't find him by this
time, we will need to change.
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So there's the kind of, they
mentioned that a few times every day.
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And I think it was the Wednesday
evening that he went missing.
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I actually have no idea.
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And then I think it was the
19th of January, so he might've
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gone missing on the 15th.
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And then on the 19th was the
day the police came and said.
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that we're calling it now.
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So maybe it was four or five days.
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I can't remember.
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Cause I was out there on the
tracks calling out his name, really
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trying to call out that it's a
very distressing thing to do.
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But yeah, so it's, it is very confusing
for me to know how long that happened.
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But I remember the moment when the
police came in and said, this is it now.
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I've never felt it.
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It's like my heart, if your heart
could physically break, the sensation,
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that was what hit me at that moment,
was my heart physically felt.
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00:11:51,665 --> 00:11:55,445
The pain was so unbearable,
I could not do this again.
204
00:11:56,004 --> 00:12:00,984
And what happens when they say,
look, we haven't found him?
205
00:12:03,430 --> 00:12:06,829
So at the same time that they said
to us, we need to go on the news
206
00:12:06,829 --> 00:12:08,139
in case he got knocked them out.
207
00:12:08,209 --> 00:12:12,489
And so the photo, his photo went up
as well, but they were also searching
208
00:12:12,489 --> 00:12:15,810
in key spots around Melbourne and
they were checking his bank accounts.
209
00:12:15,829 --> 00:12:19,859
Was he deliberate, you know, a lot
of, I think it's 39, 40, 000 people
210
00:12:19,879 --> 00:12:21,609
go missing in Australia every year.
211
00:12:21,749 --> 00:12:22,849
And some of those people.
212
00:12:23,430 --> 00:12:25,270
Oh, I choosing to go missing.
213
00:12:25,849 --> 00:12:29,079
I don't want to be found due to
family abuse or trauma or whatever.
214
00:12:29,589 --> 00:12:32,739
And so they keep it, they check, you
know, has he been accessing anything
215
00:12:33,540 --> 00:12:35,380
and he hadn't been from there.
216
00:12:35,380 --> 00:12:35,980
They do.
217
00:12:36,180 --> 00:12:40,889
I think they took a couple of days off,
but then they bring a different lot of
218
00:12:40,890 --> 00:12:42,780
dogs that are looking for a cadaver.
219
00:12:43,569 --> 00:12:47,759
So the search continues then looking for
remains for a week or so from memory.
220
00:12:48,259 --> 00:12:51,919
And then, then they call it
and say, no, this is not going
221
00:12:51,939 --> 00:12:53,769
to be something we can't.
222
00:12:55,270 --> 00:13:01,020
And so from that point, we had
a memorial for Ben, um, in March
223
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,970
rather than a funeral because
we didn't have his, his body.
224
00:13:07,670 --> 00:13:10,610
And where did you hold that memorial?
225
00:13:11,430 --> 00:13:17,780
That was in a church in
Bentley or Murrumbina.
226
00:13:18,190 --> 00:13:23,270
And is that what motivated you
to then go into the field of
227
00:13:23,470 --> 00:13:25,620
psychology or had you already?
228
00:13:25,810 --> 00:13:31,269
Well, I'd started psychology at
uni and loved it and then deferred.
229
00:13:31,779 --> 00:13:36,949
It was about three months after
Bennett died where I Felt very
230
00:13:36,949 --> 00:13:38,620
much that I was at a crossroads.
231
00:13:38,699 --> 00:13:41,300
I started to hear about
the mental health system.
232
00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:46,109
I started to hear things
like, why was he discharged?
233
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,759
I started to reflect on things
that the psychiatric nurses had
234
00:13:50,779 --> 00:13:53,580
told us, how Ben was treated.
235
00:13:54,660 --> 00:13:57,136
If he hadn't have been discharged,
would things be different?
236
00:13:57,136 --> 00:13:59,980
So I started asking why,
why is this happening?
237
00:14:00,140 --> 00:14:01,110
What's going on?
238
00:14:01,300 --> 00:14:03,580
And then I started, I
heard about SANE Australia.
239
00:14:04,079 --> 00:14:06,930
How did we not know about Saint Australia?
240
00:14:07,050 --> 00:14:07,969
This is not right.
241
00:14:07,979 --> 00:14:12,850
As a family with a loved one who's
been seriously unwell for many
242
00:14:12,860 --> 00:14:16,449
years, how did we not know that
there's a lot of support out there?
243
00:14:16,989 --> 00:14:22,220
I really remember feeling in
grief, shock, the trauma of it,
244
00:14:22,230 --> 00:14:24,654
feeling I have a choice here.
245
00:14:24,654 --> 00:14:26,643
I could see it very clearly.
246
00:14:26,643 --> 00:14:31,285
If I don't do anything, I will be
very bitter and twisted and angry.
247
00:14:31,285 --> 00:14:32,279
for having me.
248
00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,200
Or I can see this as a silver
platter because Ben's death was
249
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:39,130
just very strategic, very conscious.
250
00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:40,780
Ben's death was very public.
251
00:14:41,380 --> 00:14:46,470
So I could use that to educate and to let
people know there's support out there.
252
00:14:46,990 --> 00:14:49,100
So for me, it was a compulsion.
253
00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,260
It was not a choice, this crossroads.
254
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:52,389
It was.
255
00:14:52,869 --> 00:14:57,069
But I was not going to choose the
path of being bitter and twisted.
256
00:14:57,689 --> 00:15:02,750
I wanted to give Ben's death meaning as
a means of making sense of it for me.
257
00:15:02,750 --> 00:15:08,169
That his death is tremendous suffering
to die on your own, terrified of friends
258
00:15:08,169 --> 00:15:12,579
and family in the forest, because
the mental health system is shit.
259
00:15:13,105 --> 00:15:14,055
is not good enough.
260
00:15:14,375 --> 00:15:15,875
We need to increase the funding.
261
00:15:15,875 --> 00:15:18,285
We need to let people
know what's out there.
262
00:15:18,504 --> 00:15:24,984
And tell me, how did you get involved with
Sane Australia and what is Sane Australia?
263
00:15:25,415 --> 00:15:30,004
So before Ben died, I was living
over in Western Australia in Margaret
264
00:15:30,005 --> 00:15:37,285
River and he came to visit and I
had this old Commodore and jigs of
265
00:15:37,295 --> 00:15:38,755
hazards, the windows didn't work.
266
00:15:38,785 --> 00:15:40,115
So we had to jump through the windows.
267
00:15:40,725 --> 00:15:42,095
That's why it was the jigs of hazards.
268
00:15:42,814 --> 00:15:44,915
And so I took him on a little tour around,
269
00:15:45,285 --> 00:15:45,675
sorry.
270
00:15:45,675 --> 00:15:47,825
I just love the 80s reference.
271
00:15:52,574 --> 00:15:53,415
Wasn't that a great show?
272
00:15:54,335 --> 00:15:56,925
So I took him around cause I
lived in Margaret river and we
273
00:15:56,925 --> 00:15:58,675
traveled around for a few days.
274
00:15:58,755 --> 00:15:59,275
And.
275
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,130
There's a track called the Bibbulmun
track, which is a walking track that
276
00:16:04,130 --> 00:16:07,319
goes for a thousand kilometers from
north of Perth, all the way through
277
00:16:07,319 --> 00:16:09,310
the beautiful forest down to Albany.
278
00:16:09,820 --> 00:16:13,709
And after our time together, Ben
bought the guidebook for this
279
00:16:13,709 --> 00:16:17,170
walking track and said, we should do
this one day as a walking holiday.
280
00:16:17,970 --> 00:16:21,725
And so we planned to do it as a,
Lovely thing to do, but also we've
281
00:16:21,855 --> 00:16:23,875
raised money for some kids charity.
282
00:16:23,885 --> 00:16:27,905
I think it was at that three months
mark after, when I realized my life
283
00:16:27,944 --> 00:16:29,645
is going to go one of two ways here.
284
00:16:29,824 --> 00:16:33,084
I rang the kids charity that Ben and
I lined up and said, I'm not doing it.
285
00:16:33,364 --> 00:16:33,994
We're not doing it.
286
00:16:34,105 --> 00:16:34,855
My brother's dead.
287
00:16:34,965 --> 00:16:36,754
It was probably something
really blunt like that.
288
00:16:37,685 --> 00:16:40,484
Like I've got nothing in the tank,
not where we're canceling that.
289
00:16:40,944 --> 00:16:44,884
And then I contacted SANE and
said, I've just heard about this.
290
00:16:45,095 --> 00:16:48,025
You, and this is what's happened.
291
00:16:48,085 --> 00:16:50,355
It's not okay that we didn't
know that you were there.
292
00:16:50,865 --> 00:16:51,235
Yeah.
293
00:16:51,615 --> 00:16:55,725
And so Barbara Hocking was the
CEO of SANE Australia back then.
294
00:16:56,235 --> 00:16:57,225
Beautiful woman.
295
00:16:57,234 --> 00:16:58,655
She's since passed away.
296
00:16:59,195 --> 00:17:00,635
So SANE Australia is.
297
00:17:01,165 --> 00:17:05,555
a national body that provides a
lot of resources and supports for
298
00:17:05,555 --> 00:17:06,994
people with mental health issues.
299
00:17:07,035 --> 00:17:10,474
They're like, they're a
really fantastic organization.
300
00:17:10,564 --> 00:17:12,855
They've got a forum for
people at the moment.
301
00:17:13,234 --> 00:17:17,454
I'm not so involved with them now,
but they do things like if there's a
302
00:17:17,515 --> 00:17:22,594
computer game, that's derogatory around
any mental health issue, they will.
303
00:17:23,375 --> 00:17:26,494
Try and prevent that from entering
the country that they're really big on
304
00:17:26,954 --> 00:17:32,435
educating around stigmatizing language
and improving the mental health landscape.
305
00:17:32,795 --> 00:17:39,064
So SANE were really supportive of what
I wanted to do and helped me really.
306
00:17:39,495 --> 00:17:45,235
So a friend of mine designed some SANE
t shirts and we sold those and raised
307
00:17:45,235 --> 00:17:49,274
money to go to SANE to help their support
line because they also have a support
308
00:17:49,355 --> 00:17:51,225
number that people can call for help.
309
00:17:51,715 --> 00:17:53,965
Not emergency help, but for advice or.
310
00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:56,629
What resources are around in my area.
311
00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:02,240
And so I, yeah, I did the walk along the
Bibbulmun track with Ben's best friend
312
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:07,409
Yui, who was there when Ben disappeared
from the shack at Townsville Bren.
313
00:18:07,589 --> 00:18:11,260
And I did that 10 months after
Ben died, giving talks along the
314
00:18:11,260 --> 00:18:15,620
way to school groups and community
groups and raising money for SANE.
315
00:18:16,050 --> 00:18:20,820
And how long did that take and
what's the distance and the terrain?
316
00:18:21,045 --> 00:18:21,735
What's it like?
317
00:18:22,135 --> 00:18:27,074
Well, I have to say we were very lazy and
only did 600 kilometers of the thousand.
318
00:18:27,245 --> 00:18:28,324
Oh,
319
00:18:28,324 --> 00:18:29,705
that's still pretty sizable.
320
00:18:31,584 --> 00:18:33,205
That was my first overnight bushwalk.
321
00:18:34,024 --> 00:18:37,235
The terrain, it's beautiful,
beautiful terrain.
322
00:18:37,904 --> 00:18:42,534
They have these little huts that are built
along the way that are two or three sided
323
00:18:42,684 --> 00:18:44,914
and long drop toilets and tank water.
324
00:18:44,954 --> 00:18:47,604
So you've got to check, you know, you've
got to ring or you've got to find out,
325
00:18:47,745 --> 00:18:49,554
you know, is there water in the tanks?
326
00:18:49,864 --> 00:18:52,564
And some stretches, there was one
stretch that was 10 days with,
327
00:18:52,614 --> 00:18:56,315
we had to carry food and water,
probably not water, just food.
328
00:18:56,825 --> 00:19:00,365
And that, that area of Western
Australia is just stunning.
329
00:19:00,365 --> 00:19:00,795
That's it.
330
00:19:00,805 --> 00:19:03,445
You know, you could walk through
the valley of the giant trees
331
00:19:03,445 --> 00:19:07,735
and different, there's so many
different paths to feel peaceful.
332
00:19:07,744 --> 00:19:10,514
Didn't see anybody along the track.
333
00:19:11,025 --> 00:19:14,384
And I think the reason why it took six
weeks is because there was so many giving
334
00:19:14,384 --> 00:19:16,404
talks along the way to different groups.
335
00:19:16,935 --> 00:19:17,935
It could have been much quicker.
336
00:19:18,215 --> 00:19:24,594
And how was that experience of talking
to the different groups along the way?
337
00:19:24,895 --> 00:19:26,424
How were you received?
338
00:19:26,514 --> 00:19:32,644
I think it was, in hindsight, I
was still in shock and I remember
339
00:19:32,684 --> 00:19:36,704
people looking at me with a lot of
sympathy and I couldn't stand it.
340
00:19:37,225 --> 00:19:39,415
People had a lot of sorrow in their eyes.
341
00:19:39,899 --> 00:19:43,229
And so I needed to move
away from that part.
342
00:19:43,269 --> 00:19:49,129
So I actually found going into towns very
exhausting emotionally because I had to,
343
00:19:49,129 --> 00:19:52,870
I guess I had to pretend that I'm okay.
344
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:58,330
And were you aware that, or
had you been diagnosed as being
345
00:19:58,489 --> 00:20:00,690
neurodivergent at this stage?
346
00:20:00,990 --> 00:20:01,980
Not at all.
347
00:20:02,389 --> 00:20:04,310
No, I wasn't diagnosed.
348
00:20:04,310 --> 00:20:05,610
I was 26 then.
349
00:20:06,010 --> 00:20:09,979
I was diagnosed about four
years ago and I'm almost 50.
350
00:20:10,409 --> 00:20:14,020
But this, what I did in memory
of my brother was a big reason
351
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:15,690
that the psychiatrist said.
352
00:20:16,645 --> 00:20:17,535
This is autism.
353
00:20:18,045 --> 00:20:18,935
It's relentless.
354
00:20:18,935 --> 00:20:19,505
Why?
355
00:20:20,415 --> 00:20:21,475
Why did this happen?
356
00:20:22,185 --> 00:20:23,445
And I cannot stop.
357
00:20:23,445 --> 00:20:26,525
I have to keep going down
this rabbit warren of why?
358
00:20:26,555 --> 00:20:27,465
Why did that happen?
359
00:20:28,995 --> 00:20:31,294
And this compulsion, this social justice.
360
00:20:31,294 --> 00:20:33,034
I can't not do this.
361
00:20:33,475 --> 00:20:38,205
And that wasn't the only walk
that you did, was it, Sarah?
362
00:20:38,455 --> 00:20:39,655
No, no.
363
00:20:39,655 --> 00:20:43,985
So you walk down through the forest and
you get down to Albany on the beach.
364
00:20:44,515 --> 00:20:47,335
The sort of Southern area
of Western Australia.
365
00:20:47,955 --> 00:20:52,615
And I remember sitting on the beach almost
at the end thinking that was good, Ben,
366
00:20:52,935 --> 00:20:54,605
you know, chatting to Ben in my head.
367
00:20:55,485 --> 00:20:59,484
And, you know, I think we'd raised
about 10 grand and saying, I'd said
368
00:20:59,484 --> 00:21:01,135
that had an increase in phone calls.
369
00:21:01,145 --> 00:21:02,255
So that felt really good.
370
00:21:02,744 --> 00:21:03,875
So why don't we do.
371
00:21:04,909 --> 00:21:06,830
I'd be happy to do another one.
372
00:21:06,899 --> 00:21:12,439
And so that's when I promised Ben I would
do the Camino, which I then did maybe
373
00:21:12,439 --> 00:21:15,060
four or five years later in Ben's memory.
374
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,069
And can you explain where the
Camino is, what it connects?
375
00:21:19,955 --> 00:21:21,685
The terrain, the distance.
376
00:21:22,564 --> 00:21:24,845
So the Camino is an old pilgrimage.
377
00:21:24,845 --> 00:21:26,335
It's about a thousand years old.
378
00:21:26,395 --> 00:21:29,774
And it actually, there's lots of
branches of it through Europe.
379
00:21:29,855 --> 00:21:35,455
And most people know the part that goes
on the top part of Spain, almost along
380
00:21:35,455 --> 00:21:37,844
the coastline, but about 200 K inland.
381
00:21:38,254 --> 00:21:39,995
It's a beautiful walk.
382
00:21:40,235 --> 00:21:43,165
I ordered a guidebook
online and mistakenly bought
383
00:21:43,235 --> 00:21:44,915
the wrong one, as you do.
384
00:21:45,445 --> 00:21:50,634
And mine started in Lepuy, which
is about 800 kilometers before
385
00:21:50,635 --> 00:21:53,524
the traditional starting line
or the well known starting line.
386
00:21:55,050 --> 00:21:56,620
just before you get into Spain.
387
00:21:57,129 --> 00:22:00,750
Most people start in the French
side at the bottom of the Pyrenees
388
00:22:00,790 --> 00:22:04,330
and go up and over, but I started
800 kilometers before that part.
389
00:22:04,350 --> 00:22:07,290
So for me, it was about 1, 750 K.
390
00:22:08,249 --> 00:22:09,709
That's my second overnight walk.
391
00:22:10,129 --> 00:22:11,359
And I did this one solo.
392
00:22:11,739 --> 00:22:12,199
Yeah.
393
00:22:12,459 --> 00:22:14,580
How did you train for that?
394
00:22:15,415 --> 00:22:20,864
Well, I didn't really, I had a,
I had some sponsorships through
395
00:22:20,905 --> 00:22:26,374
Fernwood gym and other supports, but
I was very, very busy with media and
396
00:22:26,374 --> 00:22:28,754
with marketing and public speaking.
397
00:22:28,754 --> 00:22:33,274
I gave lots of school talks and
community talks raising, I mean, I'm
398
00:22:33,274 --> 00:22:37,895
about to go on this walk and you know,
there's lots of services available.
399
00:22:37,915 --> 00:22:41,165
There's, you know, the stigma is really
high and we need to address this.
400
00:22:41,254 --> 00:22:42,155
I was doing all of that.
401
00:22:42,155 --> 00:22:44,034
So I did not get to train.
402
00:22:44,745 --> 00:22:48,254
And I remember the very first wasn't
till I got on the plane, you know,
403
00:22:48,254 --> 00:22:51,835
when you're so busy before you go on a
holiday and then you get on the plane
404
00:22:51,835 --> 00:22:53,504
and you think, yep, now I can relax.
405
00:22:54,214 --> 00:23:00,334
I got on the plane to France and
thought, oh shit, what am I about to do?
406
00:23:00,335 --> 00:23:03,264
What have I signed up for?
407
00:23:03,744 --> 00:23:07,245
And so traveled all the way
down to La Puy, a little train.
408
00:23:07,255 --> 00:23:13,440
And I, the first That very first step,
you know, of course I've overpacked and
409
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,530
I've got about 500 kilos in my backpack.
410
00:23:16,540 --> 00:23:18,659
Of course, I always overpack.
411
00:23:18,660 --> 00:23:22,110
It was from, I think it was
28 kilos, which is stupid.
412
00:23:22,340 --> 00:23:26,840
And I was standing at this cathedral,
which is the, the first step, just
413
00:23:26,850 --> 00:23:33,120
thinking, this is, The first step of so
many, I will always remember that step.
414
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:38,340
Like I get, I, yeah, it's like
an emotional moment to think of
415
00:23:38,340 --> 00:23:40,309
that very first step of that walk.
416
00:23:40,620 --> 00:23:41,600
And how'd you go?
417
00:23:42,109 --> 00:23:45,180
It's interesting when I reflect on
the different walks that I've done.
418
00:23:45,180 --> 00:23:50,389
The first walk I spent a lot, my
mind was a lot in a fantasy world
419
00:23:50,389 --> 00:23:51,730
pretending I was somewhere else.
420
00:23:51,730 --> 00:23:52,870
I couldn't be in the moment.
421
00:23:53,185 --> 00:23:54,094
Cause it was too hard.
422
00:23:54,145 --> 00:23:54,755
Life was hard.
423
00:23:54,755 --> 00:23:55,945
The emotions were hard.
424
00:23:56,764 --> 00:24:01,155
The second walk, I had done some
meditation practice, mindfulness practice,
425
00:24:01,375 --> 00:24:03,784
Vipassana, practicing being in the moment.
426
00:24:04,304 --> 00:24:09,044
And this made the trip a lot better,
I think, because when you can practice
427
00:24:09,075 --> 00:24:12,944
being mindfully aware of what's happening,
there's more ease when you're doing
428
00:24:12,965 --> 00:24:14,925
something that's so long on your own.
429
00:24:16,125 --> 00:24:20,665
I think it's, it's kind of, if you compare
it, I think time is more gentle with you.
430
00:24:20,715 --> 00:24:26,745
If you can lean into facing it rather
than distraction and avoiding it.
431
00:24:27,234 --> 00:24:28,155
That's my theory.
432
00:24:28,725 --> 00:24:30,975
I learned a lot in the second walk.
433
00:24:31,134 --> 00:24:35,254
I had some really pivotal moments, which
I've talked about, and there's a created
434
00:24:35,254 --> 00:24:37,515
little music thing, which I'll share.
435
00:24:37,675 --> 00:24:38,295
I don't know if you've seen it.
436
00:24:38,305 --> 00:24:41,195
Sarah's mantra in memory of Ben.
437
00:24:41,405 --> 00:24:43,115
These were words that I came up with.
438
00:24:43,115 --> 00:24:43,205
Yeah.
439
00:24:45,034 --> 00:24:45,674
Yeah.
440
00:24:45,915 --> 00:24:50,294
So I came up with that actually at
Fernwood gym, listening to that music.
441
00:24:50,524 --> 00:24:54,924
And that was about a month before
thinking, Oh my gosh, I've got to do this.
442
00:24:54,955 --> 00:24:56,154
And I'm really frightened.
443
00:24:56,634 --> 00:24:58,254
And those words came to me then.
444
00:24:58,284 --> 00:25:00,074
And I used those words.
445
00:25:00,715 --> 00:25:05,895
In every public talk that I gave in the
lead up to that trip with that music, I
446
00:25:05,895 --> 00:25:10,465
explained to people that this is not just
for Ben, it's for every person who's died
447
00:25:10,525 --> 00:25:12,755
from mental health issues or suicide.
448
00:25:12,755 --> 00:25:16,814
It's for all of us that have suffered
as family, friends, and loved ones.
449
00:25:16,945 --> 00:25:20,234
I'm going to go off on my own,
but I want you all to be with me.
450
00:25:20,234 --> 00:25:25,115
So people, I'd play that music and
have the words on the screen and people
451
00:25:25,115 --> 00:25:30,180
would be really reflecting on their own
loved ones and, and, You can see tears.
452
00:25:30,910 --> 00:25:34,370
And so when I was on that walk, I would
listen to that music all the time.
453
00:25:34,370 --> 00:25:39,250
And sometimes the same over and over and
over, especially during dark times when I
454
00:25:39,250 --> 00:25:42,450
felt really flat and really overwhelmed.
455
00:25:43,629 --> 00:25:49,249
You had so much weight on your shoulders
and I'm not talking about the backpack.
456
00:25:50,325 --> 00:25:53,245
And this is the really interesting part.
457
00:25:53,284 --> 00:25:56,455
This is probably the most
profound moment of that walk.
458
00:25:57,135 --> 00:26:03,035
So in the Camino, about 200k before you
get to the end, there's this huge cast
459
00:26:03,035 --> 00:26:06,634
iron cross and pilgrims put pebbles.
460
00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:08,290
On the bottom.
461
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:13,070
And so you carry your burden for
the walk and then you place them
462
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:14,690
like a ritual at the bottom.
463
00:26:15,500 --> 00:26:19,969
And I carried some stones with the
words that I'd written as part of that
464
00:26:19,970 --> 00:26:25,890
mantra in this funny little glad bag
in my bra that was really tattered
465
00:26:26,049 --> 00:26:28,160
because, you know, sweaty and gross.
466
00:26:28,910 --> 00:26:29,840
And yeah.
467
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:30,296
And then
468
00:26:30,296 --> 00:26:30,969
you stretch.
469
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,720
I've still got the tatty
little thing and the prayer.
470
00:26:38,580 --> 00:26:44,459
And I had a pebble for Ben and a pebble
for mum and dad and my sister for
471
00:26:44,459 --> 00:26:48,670
me, but for all people who have died
from mental health issues and all who
472
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,679
will, you know, I was really carrying.
473
00:26:52,335 --> 00:26:55,865
And I knew which one was which and
I still, I can feel that, that,
474
00:26:56,015 --> 00:26:57,664
that is exactly how I walked this.
475
00:26:57,665 --> 00:27:01,735
This is exactly the intention
that this is for everybody and
476
00:27:01,735 --> 00:27:03,275
to give Ben's death meaning.
477
00:27:03,795 --> 00:27:07,595
These pebbles I knew I was carrying
from Australia to leave at the base of
478
00:27:07,595 --> 00:27:11,455
that cross, and I'm not I was raised
Catholic, but I wouldn't say I'm a
479
00:27:11,455 --> 00:27:13,085
practicing Catholic by any means.
480
00:27:13,585 --> 00:27:16,705
And so every now and then I'd do a mindful
check, you know, that cross is coming up.
481
00:27:16,725 --> 00:27:17,455
How do I feel?
482
00:27:17,635 --> 00:27:18,684
Oh, you know, whatever.
483
00:27:18,695 --> 00:27:20,295
I'll just chuck them there and keep going.
484
00:27:20,295 --> 00:27:27,635
And, but the day that I got to the base of
that cross, wow, I can feel that now, as I
485
00:27:27,675 --> 00:27:30,135
talk to you, it's, I took my backpack off.
486
00:27:30,790 --> 00:27:34,360
And I took my, the pebbles out of
my bra and out of the little crappy
487
00:27:34,420 --> 00:27:38,160
blad bag that's really tatted by
now and the little mantra thing.
488
00:27:38,940 --> 00:27:43,700
And I held the pebbles and I didn't
want to let them go, Catherine.
489
00:27:43,749 --> 00:27:49,790
I can't leave all of these people out
under the stars, under the elements.
490
00:27:49,790 --> 00:27:51,100
I can't, can't do it.
491
00:27:51,150 --> 00:27:52,000
But I walked up.
492
00:27:52,020 --> 00:27:54,830
It's a huge mound of pebbles
that other pilgrims have left.
493
00:27:54,830 --> 00:27:56,000
You've got to walk right up it.
494
00:27:56,010 --> 00:27:56,690
It's amazing.
495
00:27:57,110 --> 00:27:59,690
Apparently they moved them on
because they get so many people.
496
00:28:00,150 --> 00:28:00,970
walking through.
497
00:28:01,380 --> 00:28:05,110
So I got to the base of the
cross and I was really, really
498
00:28:05,110 --> 00:28:06,270
didn't want to let them go.
499
00:28:06,770 --> 00:28:11,520
And I sort of dug a little hole into
the pebbles, like to sort of create a
500
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,419
little cave, a little safe haven for
all of these things that I've been,
501
00:28:15,509 --> 00:28:16,699
all these people I've been carrying.
502
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,620
And I gently, it took me,
took me ages to let it go.
503
00:28:20,970 --> 00:28:26,149
Gently put them down and then covered
them up and finally walked down the mound.
504
00:28:26,980 --> 00:28:34,275
Suddenly, At the bottom of that
mound, I felt absolute rage.
505
00:28:34,825 --> 00:28:40,534
I really felt like throwing myself down
on the ground and hitting the earth.
506
00:28:41,044 --> 00:28:48,185
I felt, and I didn't do it, I felt like
screaming, I'm doing everything I can.
507
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,270
It is your turn.
508
00:28:50,770 --> 00:28:53,150
This was so full on.
509
00:28:53,930 --> 00:28:56,020
And then I sobbed.
510
00:28:57,450 --> 00:29:02,910
I absolutely sobbed because
as you mentioned, you were
511
00:29:02,919 --> 00:29:05,290
carrying such a heavy load.
512
00:29:06,180 --> 00:29:08,300
I had this sudden awareness.
513
00:29:08,675 --> 00:29:16,784
of exactly that, that I had been carrying
something that was not mine to carry.
514
00:29:17,284 --> 00:29:22,804
It was absolutely a profound
moment of release and relief.
515
00:29:23,264 --> 00:29:26,385
There was a lot of, it was humility too.
516
00:29:26,534 --> 00:29:29,005
I think I'm feeling teary now.
517
00:29:29,005 --> 00:29:33,215
I'm happy to feel teary, but that
it was such a strong realization
518
00:29:33,745 --> 00:29:35,685
and such a powerful healing moment.
519
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,679
Extremely emotional.
520
00:29:40,340 --> 00:29:46,409
And when you said, you know, it's now
your turn, who were you referring to?
521
00:29:46,899 --> 00:29:49,570
Yeah, I think it was probably
more the universe at large,
522
00:29:49,570 --> 00:29:51,179
something much bigger than me.
523
00:29:51,409 --> 00:29:52,229
And did you?
524
00:29:52,940 --> 00:29:54,740
do another walk after that.
525
00:29:55,130 --> 00:30:00,120
So that, that really taught me, I
think that level of insight of what I'd
526
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,119
been doing really helped me understand
this has to be a community effort.
527
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:07,470
This is not about one person.
528
00:30:07,470 --> 00:30:08,839
It's got to be a collective.
529
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:14,060
And so that helped really change my
focus then to make it a collective,
530
00:30:14,060 --> 00:30:16,430
to make it more of a community focus.
531
00:30:16,930 --> 00:30:18,850
And so that's what shaped the next walk.
532
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,680
I didn't know at that point I was going to
do another walk, but I got to the end of.
533
00:30:24,185 --> 00:30:28,175
That walk in Spain on the beach and
in the place where I was staying where
534
00:30:28,175 --> 00:30:31,575
the walkers stay They always had a
little guest book that people would
535
00:30:31,575 --> 00:30:37,224
write in and somebody just before me
had said if you love this Go to the 88
536
00:30:37,275 --> 00:30:43,214
temples in Japan and I thought well,
here we go Ben That's the sign and so
537
00:30:43,225 --> 00:30:49,340
I said to Ben we're gonna do that So
from that point, oh my goodness Yeah.
538
00:30:49,420 --> 00:30:49,930
And did you?
539
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:51,640
Yes, I did.
540
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:52,440
88 temples.
541
00:30:53,140 --> 00:30:53,300
In
542
00:30:53,300 --> 00:30:53,820
Japan?
543
00:30:53,870 --> 00:30:54,490
In Japan.
544
00:30:54,510 --> 00:30:55,120
Yes.
545
00:30:55,230 --> 00:30:59,970
And when you say this was more of a
collective, how was this one different?
546
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,983
So from there, I created in the
first walk, was it the first walk
547
00:31:03,983 --> 00:31:06,249
or the second walk, walking feet.
548
00:31:07,100 --> 00:31:11,200
F E A T and that was like a little
newsletter that I sent out to people.
549
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,260
I, you know, I'm over here and I'm
doing this and then Walking Feet
550
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,220
then morphed into a community of
people who were passionate about
551
00:31:20,470 --> 00:31:21,999
changing the mental health landscape.
552
00:31:22,525 --> 00:31:25,765
I mean, I put a call out, I need
some volunteers for an event and I
553
00:31:25,765 --> 00:31:28,455
would have 70 people within 24 hours.
554
00:31:28,475 --> 00:31:32,965
And I, I really got to understand
that walking feet became a bit of a
555
00:31:32,965 --> 00:31:35,315
vehicle for people to be passionate.
556
00:31:36,115 --> 00:31:39,195
That, you know, there's so many
people with mental health issues.
557
00:31:39,535 --> 00:31:42,925
There's so many of us dissatisfied
with the mental health landscape,
558
00:31:42,925 --> 00:31:44,545
the lack of funding and the stigma.
559
00:31:45,245 --> 00:31:48,845
That walking feet became a
little mini vehicle for people
560
00:31:48,845 --> 00:31:50,215
to get behind and support.
561
00:31:50,795 --> 00:31:55,825
I now understand, having been diagnosed
autistic and ADHD, why walking feet
562
00:31:56,125 --> 00:31:58,205
couldn't get to where I wanted it to be.
563
00:31:58,835 --> 00:32:02,295
Because there's certain parts of my
brain that just can't do certain things.
564
00:32:02,664 --> 00:32:06,565
And so, I no longer carry the shame
of that, but that really inhibited
565
00:32:06,574 --> 00:32:10,714
the success of walking feet as
a community focussed activity.
566
00:32:10,715 --> 00:32:17,965
It was incredible because part of that,
I also walked, and this is where the
567
00:32:17,965 --> 00:32:21,975
autism ADHD diagnosis makes so much
sense to me because when I finished
568
00:32:21,975 --> 00:32:26,115
the Japan walk, I then walked Armidale,
New South Wales down to Melbourne.
569
00:32:26,305 --> 00:32:29,035
And that was about, I
know it's ridiculous.
570
00:32:29,055 --> 00:32:31,045
It is absolutely ridiculous.
571
00:32:31,295 --> 00:32:31,915
It's over the top.
572
00:32:32,235 --> 00:32:32,475
So,
573
00:32:34,915 --> 00:32:39,545
and that was again, the people that
I met on this, it's just phenomenal
574
00:32:39,574 --> 00:32:46,625
that so many people who are affected
by mental health issues, it's so many
575
00:32:46,625 --> 00:32:52,935
stories, so much suffering, and at the
same time, I was trying to do a PhD.
576
00:32:53,285 --> 00:32:54,795
Which is so ADHD.
577
00:32:54,795 --> 00:32:59,505
If I can jump back a bit with the Camino
walk, another, the two main things I
578
00:32:59,505 --> 00:33:03,075
walked away that it has to be a community
thing, because there's so many people in
579
00:33:03,345 --> 00:33:05,105
affected by this and I can't change it.
580
00:33:05,385 --> 00:33:09,585
It's got to be collective and I
needed to increase my credibility.
581
00:33:09,604 --> 00:33:13,004
So I decided to do a bachelor of
psychology with honors to give
582
00:33:13,015 --> 00:33:17,225
me a much louder presence of
voice and understanding as well.
583
00:33:17,315 --> 00:33:19,945
And then that led on to a PhD.
584
00:33:20,425 --> 00:33:23,685
Which I didn't ever complete for
several reasons, but I was trying to
585
00:33:23,695 --> 00:33:28,255
do that whilst in Japan and walking
and trying to manage this big group
586
00:33:28,255 --> 00:33:31,795
of volunteers and, which I don't
think I did very well in hindsight.
587
00:33:31,795 --> 00:33:36,274
I did my best, but you know,
got to learn somewhere, somehow.
588
00:33:36,845 --> 00:33:39,685
But the PhD was an interesting
experience because I could
589
00:33:39,685 --> 00:33:41,005
have done anything I wanted.
590
00:33:41,595 --> 00:33:46,045
And I found that really overwhelming
being, I need actually clear guidelines.
591
00:33:46,075 --> 00:33:48,645
So that's doesn't work for my
brain, but I didn't know that
592
00:33:48,655 --> 00:33:51,885
then, but I started reading the
research around mental illness.
593
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,030
And it was so depressing.
594
00:33:54,210 --> 00:33:57,660
After three months of reading the
latest research, it was all about
595
00:33:57,670 --> 00:34:02,440
deficit risk and loss and the suffering
and people have short lifespan.
596
00:34:02,459 --> 00:34:07,650
And really I would be crying that
there's just so much suffering in here.
597
00:34:07,930 --> 00:34:11,970
I can't do a PhD if I'm going
to be this distressed doing it.
598
00:34:12,660 --> 00:34:14,320
And so I decided to flip it around.
599
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,920
Well, how can mental illness
enrich people's lives?
600
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,265
So I started looking at, you know,
Where's the research on that?
601
00:34:20,725 --> 00:34:26,875
And, you know, there's thousands of
research papers on how bad mental illness
602
00:34:26,875 --> 00:34:31,904
is, but I think I found maybe 11 that
looks at could you gain things from
603
00:34:31,904 --> 00:34:34,265
having the experience of a mental illness?
604
00:34:34,934 --> 00:34:36,555
So I found that really interesting.
605
00:34:37,125 --> 00:34:43,330
Why are we not looking at This other side,
and I'm convinced if we took the spotlight
606
00:34:43,350 --> 00:34:48,830
off all the horrible things, and we put
that spotlight on the amazing things,
607
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,169
that this would help reduce stigma.
608
00:34:51,650 --> 00:34:56,040
It's our fixation on all the
hardness, all the suffering.
609
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:03,630
And at what point in time, Sarah, did
you become comfortable in your own skin?
610
00:35:04,340 --> 00:35:12,279
Because for me, I was surprised to hear
about the trauma of your background.
611
00:35:13,070 --> 00:35:18,880
Because when I hear you speak, and
when you've told me your story,
612
00:35:19,390 --> 00:35:26,540
I find someone who has very clear
perspective in you no longer are.
613
00:35:27,145 --> 00:35:32,445
Feeling shame or guilt, you know,
you don't seem to carry that at what
614
00:35:32,455 --> 00:35:36,735
point in time or do you now feel that.
615
00:35:37,290 --> 00:35:39,910
You're okay with where you're at.
616
00:35:40,690 --> 00:35:44,260
I think it was the diagnosis
of autism and ADHD.
617
00:35:44,740 --> 00:35:46,800
It was like putting on
a cloak of compassion.
618
00:35:47,750 --> 00:35:49,919
I could finally understand.
619
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,489
It's not that I don't belong.
620
00:35:52,770 --> 00:35:54,850
It's not that I don't fit in.
621
00:35:55,130 --> 00:35:58,190
It's actually the architecture
of my brain is okay.
622
00:35:58,709 --> 00:35:59,860
It's not my fault.
623
00:36:00,395 --> 00:36:04,565
That's been a process and there's
times I still feel shame, but I can
624
00:36:04,565 --> 00:36:07,965
talk about, I'm feeling a lot of
shame right now and that's okay.
625
00:36:08,455 --> 00:36:14,355
And sometimes I do get hooked into it, but
I get out of it so much more easily now.
626
00:36:14,864 --> 00:36:15,614
Absolutely.
627
00:36:15,614 --> 00:36:21,175
I think understanding and learning about
my own brain and its limitations and its
628
00:36:21,205 --> 00:36:24,455
strengths has been the best thing for me.
629
00:36:24,940 --> 00:36:32,040
And it seems that you've recognised
what your strengths are and
630
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:33,720
then where you'd need support.
631
00:36:34,299 --> 00:36:38,759
And so you've actively sought,
I think you've got a business
632
00:36:38,759 --> 00:36:42,260
manager and a PA to assist you?
633
00:36:42,610 --> 00:36:46,080
Yeah, so I have really
crap executive functioning.
634
00:36:46,365 --> 00:36:48,305
Really bad, really, really bad.
635
00:36:48,575 --> 00:36:53,635
And it's an interesting mix of ADHD
and autism in that, you know, I've got
636
00:36:53,635 --> 00:36:59,045
really great ideas, very much a big
picture person, but following through
637
00:36:59,045 --> 00:37:01,715
finishing anything is really problematic.
638
00:37:01,715 --> 00:37:05,994
So I've purposely built my
business to support my brain.
639
00:37:05,995 --> 00:37:11,465
So I run regular coworking sessions
for my clients because I need that too.
640
00:37:11,495 --> 00:37:13,215
And I'm very transparent about that.
641
00:37:13,595 --> 00:37:17,215
I also think it's good to normalize.
642
00:37:17,845 --> 00:37:20,275
But it, you know, it's okay
that we need these things.
643
00:37:20,305 --> 00:37:23,815
Let's shine a spotlight on the shame
because the more we can say, yeah,
644
00:37:23,815 --> 00:37:28,794
I feel ashamed about this and we can
all relate, then the shame dissipates.
645
00:37:28,815 --> 00:37:30,255
So we feel, we feel better.
646
00:37:30,855 --> 00:37:36,735
So yeah, I set things up to support
me and I have, yes, a person who helps
647
00:37:36,735 --> 00:37:39,415
me keep on track and keep focused.
648
00:37:39,905 --> 00:37:43,405
I don't envy her because that
would be a very, very hard role.
649
00:37:43,855 --> 00:37:45,085
And a VA that helps.
650
00:37:46,015 --> 00:37:46,565
As well.
651
00:37:47,015 --> 00:37:49,085
There's still a lot of
things I need to learn.
652
00:37:49,085 --> 00:37:52,645
There's still things I'm identifying
where I need extra support.
653
00:37:53,115 --> 00:37:54,435
There's so much to learn.
654
00:37:54,935 --> 00:37:58,985
I think probably one of the
strengths through diagnosis is when
655
00:37:59,165 --> 00:38:02,715
I notice that there's an issue in
my business, I get the help that I
656
00:38:02,715 --> 00:38:04,965
need rather than feel shame about it.
657
00:38:04,965 --> 00:38:06,484
It's a lot more pragmatic.
658
00:38:06,524 --> 00:38:07,654
Let's just, ah, right.
659
00:38:07,884 --> 00:38:09,004
I'm really crap at that.
660
00:38:09,454 --> 00:38:10,815
Who can I get to help me with it?
661
00:38:11,125 --> 00:38:11,465
Yeah.
662
00:38:11,465 --> 00:38:11,905
Great.
663
00:38:12,125 --> 00:38:14,959
And tell me, since you've been diagnosed.
664
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:22,830
When you reflect back on your grief
and the walking, the finishing of one
665
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:28,899
walk, moving on to another walk, at what
point in time did you become settled
666
00:38:28,910 --> 00:38:31,369
where you didn't have to keep walking?
667
00:38:31,789 --> 00:38:34,620
You know, I think a big shift happened.
668
00:38:34,650 --> 00:38:40,549
And again, it would be my focus
of attention went from all of
669
00:38:40,549 --> 00:38:42,129
the suffering that's out there.
670
00:38:42,455 --> 00:38:46,925
And I really feel this compelled
to help alleviate the suffering out
671
00:38:46,925 --> 00:38:51,095
there and then realizing actually
I've got a lot of suffering in here.
672
00:38:51,595 --> 00:38:53,445
That's where I need to put my attention.
673
00:38:53,495 --> 00:38:55,455
And that was around the time of diagnosis.
674
00:38:55,974 --> 00:38:57,495
Somebody who's diagnosed late.
675
00:38:57,535 --> 00:39:02,305
I'm not sure if you're familiar with the
common pathway to diagnosis is the shits
676
00:39:02,375 --> 00:39:04,345
usually hit the fan in somebody's life.
677
00:39:04,345 --> 00:39:05,665
And that certainly was the case.
678
00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:10,540
For me that it was, everything was
overwhelming sensory processing
679
00:39:10,690 --> 00:39:13,850
disorder birds out very distressed.
680
00:39:14,470 --> 00:39:14,760
Yeah.
681
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:21,099
I really had to shift my attention
and connect with, okay, yes, there is
682
00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:25,680
suffering out there and there's suffering
in here and I can't do anything out there.
683
00:39:26,019 --> 00:39:27,850
If I haven't tended to what's in here.
684
00:39:29,060 --> 00:39:32,030
And I think this is where I'm at
now through joy diving is that
685
00:39:32,220 --> 00:39:34,730
it's a blend of tending to me.
686
00:39:35,295 --> 00:39:41,755
With my clients who I see very much I'm
walking alongside with and offering what
687
00:39:41,755 --> 00:39:45,185
I can for them, if that makes sense.
688
00:39:45,185 --> 00:39:47,255
Rather than giving everything outwards.
689
00:39:47,765 --> 00:39:51,635
And can you talk a little bit
about that process, about how
690
00:39:51,635 --> 00:39:53,885
you ga engage with your clients?
691
00:39:54,365 --> 00:39:56,135
What do you take them through?
692
00:39:56,785 --> 00:39:59,755
I like that you talk
about walking alongside.
693
00:40:00,325 --> 00:40:02,215
Can you just explain what that involves?
694
00:40:02,865 --> 00:40:03,285
Yeah.
695
00:40:03,285 --> 00:40:05,685
It's the most, I, I absolutely adore.
696
00:40:06,205 --> 00:40:11,795
What I do, I, so most, cause I can really
relate, I've got the career experience
697
00:40:11,855 --> 00:40:16,545
I've worked as a forensic clinician
with behaviors of concern and supporting
698
00:40:16,545 --> 00:40:20,935
people, helping somebody to find the
motivation to make positive change, but,
699
00:40:20,955 --> 00:40:23,015
and I've also got the lived experience.
700
00:40:23,125 --> 00:40:28,945
And so when I meet with a new client,
I explained to them, I'm kind of
701
00:40:28,965 --> 00:40:30,955
like a tour guide of your brain.
702
00:40:31,860 --> 00:40:35,490
I'm not the expert of your
brain, but I bring with me
703
00:40:35,660 --> 00:40:37,230
expertise that you may not have.
704
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,310
And that's partly from my own
lived experience and partly
705
00:40:40,310 --> 00:40:42,070
from my career and my education.
706
00:40:42,570 --> 00:40:45,280
And so we, it's very much a collaboration.
707
00:40:46,069 --> 00:40:50,649
And if I was to work with you, I'd say
we'd get, I would ask you some questions.
708
00:40:50,649 --> 00:40:51,800
How are things working?
709
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,020
What are your obstacles?
710
00:40:53,050 --> 00:40:54,230
What are your challenges?
711
00:40:55,050 --> 00:40:59,550
And I would give you a hypothesis and say,
this is what I'm thinking is happening.
712
00:41:00,190 --> 00:41:01,270
How does that land for you?
713
00:41:01,270 --> 00:41:02,270
And we'd work together.
714
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:03,800
Am I on the money with that?
715
00:41:04,170 --> 00:41:07,270
And then we come up with experiments
and say, do you want to try this
716
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,999
for the next week and report back
to me and see how you go with that?
717
00:41:10,510 --> 00:41:14,660
And people come to me usually
in a state of distress.
718
00:41:15,550 --> 00:41:18,940
They're just about to be diagnosed or
they've just been diagnosed or maybe
719
00:41:18,940 --> 00:41:26,150
in the last 12 months and it's such a
beautiful process to see them develop self
720
00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:32,959
literacy of their own brain because it's
not about an autistic brain does this.
721
00:41:33,665 --> 00:41:36,575
It's about how does your brain operate?
722
00:41:36,595 --> 00:41:38,115
How are you getting dopamine?
723
00:41:38,115 --> 00:41:40,545
What are the signs of
low dopamine for you?
724
00:41:41,205 --> 00:41:43,905
How does your brain's
process sound and light?
725
00:41:44,075 --> 00:41:48,995
And what could you try to protect and
preserve your energy based on your brain?
726
00:41:49,474 --> 00:41:53,945
So people come back to me with, You can
see their confidence building, they're
727
00:41:53,975 --> 00:41:58,565
connecting with themselves and their,
their brain, not through the lens
728
00:41:58,565 --> 00:42:00,755
of this is what an expert's told me.
729
00:42:00,975 --> 00:42:03,284
This is what I'm discovering
about my own brain.
730
00:42:03,785 --> 00:42:04,975
It's amazing.
731
00:42:05,325 --> 00:42:08,065
And tell me, what's the future?
732
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:10,400
So joy diving,
733
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,690
Oh, Catherine could be
anything at this stage.
734
00:42:15,310 --> 00:42:16,740
So joy diving is,
735
00:42:18,900 --> 00:42:24,130
I have really big plans, really big
plans because my number one goal is
736
00:42:24,130 --> 00:42:28,899
to alleviate suffering as far and
as wide as I possibly can in a way
737
00:42:28,899 --> 00:42:30,519
that's really sustainable for me.
738
00:42:30,609 --> 00:42:33,759
And I mean, financially,
mentally, energy, everything.
739
00:42:34,310 --> 00:42:36,940
So the one on one
consultation is a really.
740
00:42:37,140 --> 00:42:42,370
Big part, but I'm just starting to move
into corporate working with employees
741
00:42:42,370 --> 00:42:45,929
that are about to get fired, or they're
struggling because of their neuro
742
00:42:45,969 --> 00:42:49,080
divergent brain, there's a mismatch
between management and the client.
743
00:42:49,660 --> 00:42:52,879
And that's really great because
I can, it's about upskilling
744
00:42:52,879 --> 00:42:54,719
and educating all parties there.
745
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:58,240
And it's not about blaming you can
get so much out of this employee.
746
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:03,680
We've just got to make a few tweaks, you
know, and support the employee as well.
747
00:43:04,070 --> 00:43:07,200
There's also some courses that
I'm creating at the moment.
748
00:43:07,530 --> 00:43:10,600
that I'm really hoping will help people.
749
00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:15,090
It's also the polyvagal, creating
a polyvagal tool to support
750
00:43:15,090 --> 00:43:19,260
clinicians and people to map
out their own nervous system.
751
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:20,560
Polyvagal?
752
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:22,140
Could you explain that?
753
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:28,330
Polyvagal theory was created by
Stephen Porges, I'm not sure if I'm
754
00:43:28,330 --> 00:43:32,310
pronouncing his surname correctly,
and it's based on the nervous system.
755
00:43:32,570 --> 00:43:36,700
You might have heard of fight,
flight, fear, Those responses.
756
00:43:36,710 --> 00:43:39,970
So it's a lovely framework and
it's theoretical, but I really
757
00:43:39,970 --> 00:43:43,910
love how it explains the different
states of the nervous system and
758
00:43:43,910 --> 00:43:45,810
how to transition safely between.
759
00:43:45,810 --> 00:43:49,829
And we can really learn when I'm in
fight, flight, fear or fawn, or if
760
00:43:49,829 --> 00:43:53,899
I'm dissociated or if I'm feeling
safe and connected with others.
761
00:43:54,540 --> 00:43:58,170
It's just a lovely language and
neurodivergent brains have a
762
00:43:58,170 --> 00:44:01,650
much larger amygdala, which is
the emotion center of the brain.
763
00:44:02,060 --> 00:44:04,180
And so our nervous system
is like, that should be.
764
00:44:05,030 --> 00:44:10,070
Well, I'm truly overactive, especially by
late diagnosis, navigating a neurotypical
765
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:14,530
world for so long without realizing the
supports that we need to get through life.
766
00:44:15,050 --> 00:44:15,300
Yeah.
767
00:44:15,330 --> 00:44:18,470
So it's a beautiful framework to
help give us a language around
768
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:20,020
identifying what's happening for us.
769
00:44:20,710 --> 00:44:24,680
And you're working on a
model that people can use.
770
00:44:25,230 --> 00:44:25,880
Yes.
771
00:44:25,910 --> 00:44:30,220
It's a really great model that I've
been trialing because I think a big
772
00:44:30,220 --> 00:44:35,069
thing in learning about our own brains
is connection with somebody else, like
773
00:44:35,109 --> 00:44:39,119
doing this with somebody else and getting
feedback and encouragement rather than
774
00:44:39,130 --> 00:44:40,589
just going off and doing your own thing.
775
00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:41,310
course.
776
00:44:42,410 --> 00:44:47,780
So what we're developing at the moment is
a two way system where somebody can track
777
00:44:47,820 --> 00:44:51,760
where they are at and learn the signs
and symptoms of where they are at within
778
00:44:51,790 --> 00:44:57,060
polyvagal theory on the ladder of where
is their nervous system with tailored
779
00:44:57,140 --> 00:45:01,310
tools to help them support their nervous
system and gain a sense of safety if
780
00:45:01,310 --> 00:45:02,800
that's what they're missing at that time.
781
00:45:03,270 --> 00:45:06,920
So if you were my client and you would
have access to this, you could fill
782
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:11,275
out your own data and we could make
weekly and And look at what's happening
783
00:45:11,275 --> 00:45:14,935
for you over the week and then apply
different strategies and tools that
784
00:45:14,935 --> 00:45:17,765
are perfect purpose fit for you.
785
00:45:18,025 --> 00:45:24,005
And from memory with what you've said
previously to me outside of this interview
786
00:45:24,424 --> 00:45:30,325
was you've seen the difference when
someone who's a client and then the
787
00:45:30,335 --> 00:45:36,345
partner of the client and you can see,
do you want to explain a little bit
788
00:45:36,345 --> 00:45:39,175
about that within the realm that you can.
789
00:45:39,620 --> 00:45:40,530
Yeah, yeah.
790
00:45:40,530 --> 00:45:46,960
So I have clients who have, who've
been late diagnosed autism or ADHD
791
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,100
or both, as well as comorbidity,
other mental health issues.
792
00:45:50,879 --> 00:45:53,879
And they may have been struggling
for a very long time to
793
00:45:53,879 --> 00:45:55,050
understand what's happening.
794
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,130
So I work with families, so not just
the person who's got the diagnosis, but
795
00:45:59,300 --> 00:46:06,039
with their partner or their children
or the whole family and using polyvagal
796
00:46:06,100 --> 00:46:08,460
theory, not just polyvagal theory.
797
00:46:08,460 --> 00:46:12,159
I've also, I've coined a term I've
often wanted to say that I've coined
798
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,549
a term sensory lifestyle medicine.
799
00:46:15,099 --> 00:46:18,750
So using polyvagal theory and sensory
lifestyle medicine and tracking our
800
00:46:18,750 --> 00:46:22,100
dopamine seeking behaviors, this
creates a language for somebody
801
00:46:22,100 --> 00:46:23,640
to chat with their partner about.
802
00:46:24,155 --> 00:46:28,655
And so you can bring in, it's kind
of like if you have a behavior
803
00:46:28,695 --> 00:46:32,275
support plan, like if somebody is
distressed, this is how you can
804
00:46:32,275 --> 00:46:34,264
respond to help them not be distressed.
805
00:46:34,595 --> 00:46:36,914
This is the kind of thing I'm
developing with clients and
806
00:46:36,914 --> 00:46:38,095
their partners and children.
807
00:46:38,514 --> 00:46:41,884
So if you see me distressed, this
is how I want you to respond to
808
00:46:41,884 --> 00:46:43,435
me, and that will help me regulate.
809
00:46:43,895 --> 00:46:46,605
And so through upskilling, you know.
810
00:46:46,965 --> 00:46:53,435
Really supportive, nonjudgmental way
families are learning to support each
811
00:46:53,435 --> 00:46:58,825
other when they're in a state of distress
in a very respectful, empowering way.
812
00:46:59,325 --> 00:47:01,144
It's, it's absolutely.
813
00:47:01,780 --> 00:47:02,850
So beautiful.
814
00:47:03,350 --> 00:47:10,780
And from these results, people have been
able to deescalate issues arising just
815
00:47:10,780 --> 00:47:13,350
because there's now a common language.
816
00:47:13,540 --> 00:47:13,910
Yeah.
817
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,380
So it gives partners a communication,
like, so they can communicate.
818
00:47:17,705 --> 00:47:21,865
With each other, the communication
really is totally different.
819
00:47:21,875 --> 00:47:25,265
So after six to 12 months, they
are communicating in a way that
820
00:47:25,275 --> 00:47:28,205
is totally, would have been very
foreign to them 12 months ago.
821
00:47:28,595 --> 00:47:33,904
And we're seeing things like the
time somebody is extremely distressed
822
00:47:33,904 --> 00:47:35,704
or suicidal is much shorter.
823
00:47:35,775 --> 00:47:37,235
The recovery is much shorter.
824
00:47:37,235 --> 00:47:42,235
The sense of shame and feeling really
bad about yourself from having a
825
00:47:42,235 --> 00:47:44,995
dysregulated time is much shorter.
826
00:47:45,674 --> 00:47:47,245
People are getting back on track.
827
00:47:47,510 --> 00:47:53,960
So much quicker, it's also where partners
are able to help prevent dysregulation
828
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:59,530
by saying, there's one couple who came
up with, they created little cards.
829
00:47:59,530 --> 00:48:02,719
They could say, if I give you
this card, it means I think
830
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:04,110
you're becoming dysregulated.
831
00:48:04,629 --> 00:48:08,640
And so that means if I was to be given
that card, my partner saying, Oh, Sarah,
832
00:48:08,670 --> 00:48:10,060
I think you're becoming dysregulated.
833
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:10,580
Oh yeah.
834
00:48:10,580 --> 00:48:10,930
Okay.
835
00:48:11,170 --> 00:48:12,730
I might go do some deep breathing.
836
00:48:13,510 --> 00:48:15,540
That means I'm going to
calm my nervous system.
837
00:48:15,540 --> 00:48:17,450
That's an evidence based strategy.
838
00:48:17,450 --> 00:48:23,040
When you're breathing slowly and deeply,
it's physiologically impossible to panic.
839
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:25,020
So that helps too.
840
00:48:25,300 --> 00:48:29,140
It's one of the many strategies
that can help bypass really
841
00:48:29,150 --> 00:48:30,639
big dysregulation and distress.
842
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,460
That's really amazing.
843
00:48:33,979 --> 00:48:35,519
Very proud of my client.
844
00:48:35,519 --> 00:48:35,529
I
845
00:48:35,809 --> 00:48:37,399
think I'm getting nice results.
846
00:48:37,950 --> 00:48:40,604
And you should be extremely proud.
847
00:48:41,115 --> 00:48:42,175
They're amazing people.
848
00:48:42,435 --> 00:48:48,145
And looking back at your lived experience,
do you think, and this is just from
849
00:48:48,145 --> 00:48:53,935
the outside looking in, you know, do
you think your inability to communicate
850
00:48:53,985 --> 00:48:57,320
with Ben when he was escalating.
851
00:48:57,650 --> 00:49:02,530
Do you think that's why you've
really focused on the ability of
852
00:49:03,270 --> 00:49:04,740
communication and clear communication?
853
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:07,299
That's a really good question, Catherine.
854
00:49:07,570 --> 00:49:10,729
I think that, yeah, I think you've
probably hit the nail on the head.
855
00:49:10,729 --> 00:49:17,389
There's a, when somebody is, is that
distressed and we cannot reach them.
856
00:49:17,935 --> 00:49:22,465
And they're at risk of suicide,
or dying, or harming themselves.
857
00:49:22,965 --> 00:49:27,824
Yeah, that probably speaks to that deep
scar that I have not being able to reach.
858
00:49:27,835 --> 00:49:29,385
Ben, I hadn't thought of that.
859
00:49:29,565 --> 00:49:31,254
I think you've hit the nail on the head.
860
00:49:31,745 --> 00:49:38,034
But it's very important to me to help
people feel safe in their own body.
861
00:49:38,465 --> 00:49:42,355
Because the moment when we don't
feel safe, we don't have access
862
00:49:42,355 --> 00:49:46,665
to our frontal lobe where we
can reason and problem solve.
863
00:49:47,685 --> 00:49:51,735
And it can lead to, in the extreme
case of with schizophrenia, like
864
00:49:51,735 --> 00:49:54,195
my, Ben could only see monsters.
865
00:49:54,195 --> 00:49:57,584
He thought family were monsters and we
were taking out his liver and heart.
866
00:49:58,550 --> 00:50:04,600
If we can avoid that by supporting
each other to feel safe in our own skin
867
00:50:04,890 --> 00:50:06,910
without shame because we're different.
868
00:50:07,510 --> 00:50:14,450
And Sarah, what advice would you
give to family members who might find
869
00:50:14,450 --> 00:50:18,279
themselves in a similar situation to you?
870
00:50:18,610 --> 00:50:25,550
When someone is escalating, what
would you recommend or even grieving
871
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,270
because they've lost a loved one?
872
00:50:27,830 --> 00:50:32,519
If you have a family member with
a severe mental health issue or
873
00:50:33,260 --> 00:50:38,350
mental health issue, I think the
most important thing is self care.
874
00:50:38,875 --> 00:50:41,705
This is such a common
experience as a carer, as a
875
00:50:41,725 --> 00:50:44,275
partner, a sibling or a parent.
876
00:50:44,745 --> 00:50:49,715
Their own personal self care is usually
way, way down on the bottom of the ladder.
877
00:50:50,205 --> 00:50:57,585
We cannot really help somebody co
regulate or to regulate their own nervous
878
00:50:57,585 --> 00:51:00,064
system if we're not looking after ours.
879
00:51:00,425 --> 00:51:04,445
So I know people think it's really
selfish to prioritize your own self
880
00:51:04,445 --> 00:51:09,435
care, but I like to flip it and say, it's
actually, you're not helping if you're
881
00:51:09,435 --> 00:51:11,345
not looking after your own nervous system.
882
00:51:11,745 --> 00:51:15,494
And I say that with compassion
and empathy, not, not as a, you
883
00:51:15,495 --> 00:51:19,845
know, you should, but to try and
help people shift that viewpoint.
884
00:51:20,485 --> 00:51:25,055
You actually need to care for
you as your number one priority.
885
00:51:25,385 --> 00:51:26,695
Above your loved one.
886
00:51:26,695 --> 00:51:27,665
Who's very unwell.
887
00:51:28,175 --> 00:51:31,665
If that means you need extra
support, get the extra support.
888
00:51:32,565 --> 00:51:34,145
That means getting a cleaner.
889
00:51:34,145 --> 00:51:39,955
If you can get in a cleaner, if that means
see a psychologist, see a psychologist.
890
00:51:40,485 --> 00:51:43,455
There's help for anybody who's grieving.
891
00:51:44,295 --> 00:51:46,935
I'm sorry for your loss,
I know how hard it is.
892
00:51:47,385 --> 00:51:47,765
Feel it.
893
00:51:48,775 --> 00:51:52,974
I can't thank you enough
for your time today, Sarah.
894
00:51:53,115 --> 00:52:01,644
And just sharing your story about
Ben, and it's something that very
895
00:52:01,644 --> 00:52:07,175
few people ever experience in
their life, is losing someone and
896
00:52:07,175 --> 00:52:08,835
literally having them go missing.
897
00:52:08,835 --> 00:52:08,935
Thank you.
898
00:52:09,540 --> 00:52:10,890
And not know what happened.
899
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:17,510
So, thank you for being very
honest and open with your story.
900
00:52:17,970 --> 00:52:19,390
You are most welcome.
901
00:52:20,140 --> 00:52:22,800
Thank you for listening and
inviting me to talk about it.
902
00:52:23,099 --> 00:52:27,050
It's really lovely to reconnect with
the sense of purpose and meaning.
903
00:52:27,679 --> 00:52:28,470
We appreciate it.
904
00:52:28,959 --> 00:52:32,880
Well, it certainly sounds like
it's embedded in what you're
905
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:34,440
doing every day nowadays.
906
00:52:35,140 --> 00:52:36,310
Thanks so much, Sarah.
907
00:52:38,950 --> 00:52:42,370
We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,
908
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:44,260
brought to you by Critical Info.
909
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:49,459
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910
00:52:49,460 --> 00:52:51,290
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911
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:52,600
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912
00:52:52,655 --> 00:52:56,885
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913
00:52:57,065 --> 00:53:01,205
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914
00:53:01,205 --> 00:53:02,945
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915
00:53:03,275 --> 00:53:04,595
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916
00:53:04,745 --> 00:53:05,735
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917
00:53:05,735 --> 00:53:09,635
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918
00:53:09,635 --> 00:53:15,855
media Head to Don't Be Caught dead.com for
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Resources
- Connect with Sarah Eagle via her website here: https://joydiving.space/
- Sane Australia - SANE is for people with recurring, persistent or complex mental health issues and trauma, and for their families, friends and communities.
- My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?
Our guide, ‘My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?’ provides practical steps for the hours and days after a loved one's death. Download it here.
- Support Services
If you're feeling overwhelmed by grief, find support through our resources and bereavement services here.