FACING the UNTHINKABLE: Death, Dying, and Suicide
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About this episode
⚠️ Trigger Warning ⚠️
This episode contains discussions of sensitive topics including suicide. Listener discretion is advised.
What if the key to unlocking the mysteries of death and suicide lies in the delicate verses of poetry? In this thought-provoking episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, we sit down with the brilliant Katrina Jaworski, a philosopher and educator who dares to tackle the taboo. Together, we explore the profound connections between creativity and the complex emotions surrounding death and suicide.
Katrina's insights challenge us to rethink our assumptions and the language we use when discussing these sensitive topics. She passionately advocates for the power of listening—truly listening—to those who are struggling, creating safe spaces for open dialogue. Through her experiences and research, she reveals that vulnerability does not equate to voicelessness; instead, everyone has a story worth sharing, and those stories can be transformative.
Join us as we navigate the intersections of philosophy, gender, and mental health, and discover how we can foster a more compassionate and understanding society. This episode is not just a conversation; it's a call to action for all of us to engage in meaningful discussions about death and suicide, breaking down the barriers that keep us silent.
If you enjoyed this episode, please let us know! Share your thoughts, subscribe, and help us spread the word about the importance of discussing death openly.
Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine
Show notes
Guest Bio
Associate Professor at the Creative Academic Unit, University of South Australia.
Katrina Jaworski is an Associate Professor at the Creative Academic Unit, University of South Australia. She is a social philosopher whose research moves fluidly across cultural studies, continental philosophy, gender studies, and sociology. She is deeply committed to exploring the agency of suicide, with particular attention to the body, gender, sexuality, relational ethics and poetry. Her scholarly interests also extend to the philosophy of death and dying bodies, the Rwandan genocide, women in higher education, the cultural politics of thinking, trauma and affect. A passionate educator, Dr. Jaworski brings cultural studies to life in the classroom, viewing it as a dynamic form of applied philosophy.
Summary
Key points from our discussion:
- The role of poetry in understanding and expressing complex emotions related to suicide.
- How societal and gendered assumptions shape our perceptions of suicide.
- The importance of creating safe spaces for open discussions about death and dying.
- Practical advice for supporting loved ones who may be struggling with suicidal thoughts.
- The need for innovative approaches to suicide prevention that go beyond traditional methods.
Transcript
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Before we begin, just a heads up that
today's episode includes discussions
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of sensitive topics like suicide.
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If you choose to proceed,
please take care.
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Your wellbeing is important,
so please feel free to pause
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or skip any parts if needed.
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If ... Read More
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00:00:01,470 --> 00:00:05,400
Before we begin, just a heads up that
today's episode includes discussions
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00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:07,590
of sensitive topics like suicide.
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00:00:08,010 --> 00:00:10,410
If you choose to proceed,
please take care.
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00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,910
Your wellbeing is important,
so please feel free to pause
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00:00:14,910 --> 00:00:16,860
or skip any parts if needed.
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00:00:17,404 --> 00:00:21,005
If you need any support, there
are resources in our show notes.
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Mental health doesn't cause suicide, and
the argument there is that you cannot
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confuse correlation with causation and
that without denying that the depression,
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for instance, might be an important
factor in someone thinking about suicide.
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It's not the entire explanation.
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And in a way, you know, I would argue
that suicide is an existential phenomenon,
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and if mental illness is part of it, then
it is, but it doesn't mean that it's the
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only thing that makes someone suicidal.
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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead.
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A podcast encouraging open conversations
about dying and the death of a loved one.
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I'm your host, Katherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to
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bring your stories of death back to
life because while you may not be ready
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to die, at least you can be prepared.
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Don't be caught dead.
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Acknowledges the lands of the KO
and Nations and recognizes their
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connection to land, sea, and community.
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We pay our respects to their elders
past, present, and emerging, and
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extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First
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Nation peoples around the globe.
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Today we have Katrina Voki.
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Shes a philosopher, educator, and
someone who has done deeply reflective
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work around death, dying, and suicide.
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Katrina, thank you so much
for being with us today.
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Thank you for the invite, Catherine.
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It's great to be here.
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Now, can you tell us a bit about how your
work with death and dying began and maybe
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touch on how we first met at the festival?
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Sure.
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Thank you.
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Yes, I remember the festival.
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I'll start with that because I came
back home very excited and people
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would say, well, where did you go?
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Death and Dying Festival.
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It was amazing.
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So, you know, as you probably will
agree, it offers such an amazing space
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to talk about things that often either.
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People get nervous about freaked
out, upset or really uncomfortable.
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And I also remember you as well.
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I'm like, oh, who is this person?
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She's saying really interesting things.
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So it was really nice to meet you there.
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My work mainly is around suicide, and
so in the last few years it's always
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been about the agency of suicide.
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So my question has always been,
how is it that we make the kind of
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decision to kill ourselves or those
of us that do, and how is that?
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Act and choice interpreted.
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So my work is not so much about
why people kill themselves, but
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rather how suicide is interpreted
by others, how it's made sense of.
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And so in the last few years, I
have been working on suicide and
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poetry because poetry is a really
interesting medium of actually naming
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really difficult things to explain.
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And naming things that
we are really afraid of.
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And poetry as an art form has this
capacity to resonate with others without
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necessarily explaining things too much.
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So often people respond towards
something and go, I get it.
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And that's that kind of resonance.
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And sometimes it's really good, especially
for death and dying where words fail
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us because there's so much about
death and dying that we can explain.
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But then there's so
much more that we can't.
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Wow.
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That is such a powerful way to frame it,
and I love the way you describe poetry as
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a bridge into these deeper conversations.
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I'd love to hear more about your use of
poetry in this space and what role does
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it play in making sense of something
as complex and as emotional as suicide?
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So I've been working in that
space of poetry and suicide with
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a colleague of mine from Canada.
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He's the poet, so I'm
just the try hard poet.
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I interpret stuff.
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He writes the poetry.
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So it's, it's been a really interesting
exercise, for lack of a better word,
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because it just kind of trying to work
out how does poetry help us to understand
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the complexity of something like suicide?
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And one of it is that we.
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As human beings are taught that
we need to control everything.
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At least in Western society and
to a degree you can, you know,
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it's like what you do, don't
record dead prepare kind of thing.
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But there's so much about
death that is out of reach.
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And I think that's the lesson that poetry
teaches us that there will be things that
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we can't control and we just have to keep
company to it and not blame ourselves.
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And as a result, have more compassion
for those who go through the act
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of suicide and end up dead, but
also those who grieve as well and
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have to come to terms with that.
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Someone did make that choice.
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So for me, poetry and death, you know, I
just, of course I went to that workshop.
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Because I was just fascinated,
you know, how they were doing it.
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And it was really rewarding because it
just brought out so much out of people.
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Like you probably remember the discussion
as well, like poetry, creative arts
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often kind of, you know, bring really
interesting discussion out of the
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woodwork because people, you know.
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Can explain themselves differently
through the medium or they find it
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more comfortable or more welcoming.
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You know, it's so different than
being in a clinical space, for
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instance, or a grief counselor
session or, and especially because
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we are all in the company of others.
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And I think that sense of being together
in a community, uh, was really important.
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But, um, that's where I'm at at
the moment and using poetry to say.
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Look, suicide is something that you get.
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Lumped with in life.
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It's like a gift you didn't
ask for, but there it is.
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You.
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You know, if someone's
dead, you can't undo that.
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And so what do you do with that?
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How do you actually come
to tells of such a wound?
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Because it is a wound, but also to say
that people might have responses to
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suicide such as it's selfish or it's, you
know, how could they, that's all fair,
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but that doesn't always necessarily mean
that suicide is immoral or unethical.
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Or bad in its own right.
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So this is where poetry kind of helps
me as a philosopher to say there's
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no, you know, you can say that someone
is selfish, that they did a terrible
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thing to you, but that it's your
response rather than the actual.
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What that person decided.
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And I guess to finish up my long
explanation, my task, I think it's
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about how do I, as a philosopher, as
a teacher, how do I balance respecting
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and honoring the dead, especially
from the culture that I come from.
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How do I respect the
decisions of the dead?
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But also at the same time, acknowledge
and respect those who grieve.
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I. And that's a really hard act to follow,
but I figure I've got a whole life to go.
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Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and
I can see why people are curious.
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I imagine people sometimes question why
you'd choose to work in this space now.
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What draws you to these
themes of death and suicide?
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Yeah, that's a common question I
get, you know, and often it's one off
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curiosity of slight suspicion, meaning
there's something wrong with me.
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I must be clinically depressed,
unmedicated, and whatnot.
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None of that's true.
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I'm not clinically depressed at all,
but for me, I'm drawn to issues of
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death because I like solving puzzles.
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Existential puzzles and death is a
puzzle I can't solve effectively.
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Dying is possible to understand, but
death isn't unlike, I mean, the dead
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don't speak to me, so maybe others can
say something different about that.
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So for me, it's doing anything to do
with death and suicide is also trying
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to understand what life means and the
degree to which that it is precious.
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And that you get one shot at this.
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And so analyzing and studying something
like suicide is also about thinking
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through what it means to live.
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Especially since people that do
suicide or complete suicide are
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effectively saying, this isn't for me.
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So perhaps this is why suicide as
a topic is so difficult to handle
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because in a way it's a critical
point someone's making through death.
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Wow.
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Thanks Katrina, for being
so open in your response.
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Um, and sharing that, have there
been personal experiences that shaped
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your connection to these topics?
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I had people in my life that
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killed themselves.
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I've published on this, so
this is public knowledge.
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When I was seven, my father threatened
to kill himself in front of me.
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So it is then that I was, you know,
introduced to, as I often say, this was
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my first lesson in existential philosophy.
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And you know, as a child I didn't quite
understand it, but, well, fortunately or
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not, I have this memory that recall that.
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I remember a lot of details,
so it never left me.
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But also as a young growing up person,
you know, people around you do kill
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themselves, so you know, that often drew
me and I always wanted to understand
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what was going on and understand it from
a point of compassion and from a point
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of not pathologizing their experience.
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Because something very intense is going
on for someone who's in that space.
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So I guess, you know, that's
how I came to the topic.
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I think the topic of death and
dying bodies in particular, actually
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my mentor died, one of them 2007,
and I was part of very small
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group of women, basically her mom.
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Two sisters and myself looked
after Louise until she died.
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So witnessing someone die was
actually quite a powerful experience
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that led to a 10,000 word article.
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But, and my way of, you know, working
it out and realizing that her death was
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actually about love as well, and the, the
degree to which witnessing someone die is.
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A difficult experience, but it's an
incredible gift to be with someone you
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love, you care about until they dying.
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Breath.
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So I gravitated to the topics
through kinds of life experiences
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that I've had in life.
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And because I first studied
psychology and sociology, then went
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through sociology only, and then
through my PhD was more in cultural
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studies and continental philosophy.
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And so.
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I think I gravitated towards disciplines
that would enable me to ask certain
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questions and get some explanations, and
so I did actually the topic of suicide
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in assessments when I was younger.
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I was just one of those students.
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Tell me what specific area of
cultural studies or philosophy
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did you focus on during your PhD?
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Yeah.
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European philosophy, but, but
yeah, nowadays, I mean a lot
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of it is French and German.
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Basically, and the difference between
analytic philosophy and continental,
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I mean, continental philosophy is the
naughty child of analytic philosophy.
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Basically analytic philosophers whose
work I, you know, appreciate and respect
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will analyze the problem in itself.
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Continental philosophers, like myself,
will look at the political and social and
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cultural contexts to analyze a problem.
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So that's what makes us
different effectively.
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Hmm.
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American and UK are very strong
in analytic philosophy traditions.
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Australia is as well, but continental
philosophy emerged, um, post World
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War II in particular, and it came
out of the shock of World War ii
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Holocaust and the Destruction.
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Um, so it does emerge.
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As a discipline asking particular
questions around what it
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means to exist, especially the
existentialist in France at the time.
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But are those continental
philosophies aware of its own limits?
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And so it is increasingly engaging with
African philosophies, for instance.
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So we've South Pacific philosophy
because the way philosophers think,
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it's very driven by context and
often that context is very white.
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And you know, there are different ways
of explaining the universe depending
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of where you are on the globe.
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So yes, that's a long explanation.
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That's such an important point, how
even philosophy, a field that's meant
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to question everything can still
be shaped by historical trauma and.
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Have a narrow cultural lens, and, and
that lens doesn't just affect how we
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understand existence on a broad level.
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It filters down into how we
interpret individual experiences too.
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00:13:16,735 --> 00:13:20,305
Now, you've written about how
gender plays a big role in the
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way suicide is interpreted.
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00:13:23,185 --> 00:13:27,295
Those gendered assumptions
can be so deeply ingrained.
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What are some of the patterns you've
noticed in how women's and men's
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experiences are treated differently?
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So gender has always been part of my.
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Project on suicide.
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Even when I was a younger student, what
I was always fascinated by was not only
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that there were differences between men
and women, for instance, but also that
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they were interpreted differently based
on outcomes, but also on the way the
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reasons for suicide were interpreted.
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00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,180
So basically, women, men's
suicides, and especially because
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their rates of suicide are higher
interpreted as serious, willful.
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You know, women's suicides tend
to, to this day, be interpreted as
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attention seeking waste of time,
maladjusted, manipulative, and so on.
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So I was always fascinated why on
earth this kind of interpretation.
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Emerges over and over and, and, you know,
even in everyday people you can, I often
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people say this to me at parties, oh yeah.
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Women are just, you know, they don't
really mean it, you know, this is just
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them having a, a moment kind of thing.
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And what is really also interesting
that in the past often the reasons
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for women were always about, well,
she'll kill, try to kill herself.
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The relationship has broken
down, whereas men will, their
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00:14:50,590 --> 00:14:52,510
reasons for suicide is economic.
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Like he's lost his job or, you
know, he's gotten really ill and
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can't function fully anymore.
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00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:04,600
So, you know, and in reality is that
men's reasons for suicide, um, a lot
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of the times about relationships and
relationship breakdowns, and it's
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this kind of inability to accept that,
that, first of all, women are serious.
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Regardless of their outcome, whether it's
attempted suicide or completed suicide.
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00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,900
And second of all, something
really complicated about
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masculinity is going on for men.
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00:15:24,420 --> 00:15:28,080
So I guess I came to, you know,
the topic, wanting to understand
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not just how sociology interpreted
suicide, but also the media law,
250
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medicine, and psychopathology.
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I
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have to say, that is
such an important point.
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Do you think some of our assumptions
about suicide are reinforced by
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systems such as the media, the
legal system, or healthcare?
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Yes.
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I understood that the reason why
we have really powerful views
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about suicide is because different.
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00:15:54,840 --> 00:16:00,420
Disciplines or different professions in
the end somehow kind of repeat the same
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00:16:00,420 --> 00:16:03,090
pattern in what they think about suicide.
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00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,930
So it's not just that, you know,
psychology used to think that
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women were just attention seekers.
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It was also in legal spaces.
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The same thing is thought to this day.
264
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It was also in medical spaces, in the
media in particular, especially prior
265
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,940
to putting in the media training web.
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To respectfully write about suicide and
to not include too many details and so on.
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00:16:26,835 --> 00:16:29,625
So yes, I think I was kind of
drawn to this difference and
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wanting to understand why.
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And my conclusion was that we have a very
masculine way of understanding suicide.
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So, you know, the body has to be male.
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The man has to be masculine, has
to choose a particular method,
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is often interpreted as strong.
273
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Assertive active, whereas women
are passive reactive and so on.
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And so this kind of framework of
interpretation will often affect how each
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00:16:56,970 --> 00:16:59,610
person's suicide is interpreted basically.
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00:17:00,390 --> 00:17:04,650
Now, in light of everything we've
discussed, you know, philosophy,
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00:17:04,650 --> 00:17:09,750
gender, and how we interpret suicide,
what direction do you think we
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should be moving in as a society
or in a professional practice?
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I mean, one of the things is I think,
and I did this in Nottingham a few years
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ago before Covid, they invited me to be
part of a workshop on the language of
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suicide for allied health professionals.
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And I loved it because in my first
postdoc I worked with health sciences.
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So my suggestion was, we
need to be really aware.
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What kind of language are we
using to describe people's
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experiences with suicide?
286
00:17:39,905 --> 00:17:42,755
And then question ourselves,
where is it actually coming from?
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00:17:43,030 --> 00:17:47,980
And so to me, in a way, one of the,
you know, things is to actually train
288
00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:52,629
allied health professionals into
critically engaging with the way in
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00:17:52,629 --> 00:17:57,250
which they use language to describe
when someone's suicides or not, and
290
00:17:57,250 --> 00:18:02,139
to actually assess whether assumptions
are coming from, not to blame
291
00:18:02,139 --> 00:18:05,620
themselves, but to work out how larger.
292
00:18:06,044 --> 00:18:10,365
You know, things in life affect how
we understand something individually.
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Assumptions, values, meanings, and so
to actually think about that critically.
294
00:18:16,215 --> 00:18:20,264
And the other thing I think, you know,
the other problem is that we don't
295
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think gender is really important, or
sexuality in suicide, for instance.
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00:18:24,855 --> 00:18:27,105
And if it is, it's just
like an added issue.
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00:18:27,645 --> 00:18:30,165
Whereas for me, it's like those
kinds of things are always
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part of suicide and you know.
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00:18:32,985 --> 00:18:37,514
We cannot presume that suicide
is a gender neutral phenomenon or
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value free phenomenon in society.
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That it's just suicide, that it
means the same thing to everyone.
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00:18:43,905 --> 00:18:46,605
I think breaking out of
that, it's really important.
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00:18:46,665 --> 00:18:50,655
The other thing too is, and especially
because I discovered this when I
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interviewed queer young people about
their experiences of suicide, is that
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we really need to learn how to listen.
306
00:18:58,195 --> 00:19:01,074
And this is coming from
different quarters at the moment.
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00:19:01,074 --> 00:19:05,365
This really kind of
attentive, ethical listening.
308
00:19:05,485 --> 00:19:09,745
Just really listening, being there
for people because what often, some
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00:19:09,745 --> 00:19:13,345
researchers are found out that a
lot of suicidal people, they just
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want someone to listen, not to tick.
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Clinical categories.
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I mean, that might be important, that
might need help, but also to, you know,
313
00:19:22,785 --> 00:19:28,095
to just be there and pay attention,
which is actually a lot of hard work.
314
00:19:28,455 --> 00:19:34,905
That kind of deep listening you
describe is so rare, but so powerful.
315
00:19:35,835 --> 00:19:40,755
You've mentioned the power of listening,
not just clinically but deeply.
316
00:19:41,355 --> 00:19:46,965
Ethically, what does that kind of
listening look like in practice?
317
00:19:47,115 --> 00:19:50,565
Um, like I'm, I've had interviews
for two hours, for instance,
318
00:19:50,925 --> 00:19:54,915
whereas just that person was talking
nonstop and I was just there.
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And that was a powerful interview because.
320
00:19:59,475 --> 00:20:01,905
One that, you know,
affected me for a long time.
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00:20:01,905 --> 00:20:07,304
But what it also meant that I said my,
um, listening said, your experience
322
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is valuable is real, and I will
respect it and treat it as important.
323
00:20:12,405 --> 00:20:17,054
So listening is, you know, one really
important thing I think as well.
324
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And listening, you know, knowing
that gender roles and assumptions.
325
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Inform how we understand
everyone around us and just be
326
00:20:25,220 --> 00:20:26,720
critically engaged with that.
327
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,350
I think the other thing too, and
I think this is going past gender,
328
00:20:30,350 --> 00:20:34,370
is that, and this is a contentious
point, is that mental health doesn't
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cause suicide and even psychiatrists.
330
00:20:37,740 --> 00:20:40,470
And psychologists, as I
haven't started to say that.
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And the argument there is that you cannot
confuse correlation with causation.
332
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And that without denying that depression,
for instance, might be an important
333
00:20:50,220 --> 00:20:52,740
factor in someone thinking about suicide.
334
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It's not the entire explanation.
335
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And in a way, you know, I would argue
that suicide is an existential phenomenon,
336
00:21:01,010 --> 00:21:05,210
and if mental illness is part of it, then
it is, but it doesn't mean that it's the
337
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only thing that makes someone suicidal.
338
00:21:07,820 --> 00:21:11,870
Because, for instance, with a
lot of people, you know, if you
339
00:21:11,870 --> 00:21:14,629
give someone a really secure
job, if you give them a happy.
340
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Family life, the suicidality
is likely to recede.
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00:21:18,870 --> 00:21:22,470
So, you know, there are other things
that are very much part of it.
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00:21:22,470 --> 00:21:27,750
And in mainstream suicide prevention,
you know, all this is really important,
343
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,850
but often, you know, people fall back on
what they understood stand really well
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in suicide prevention, you know, rather
than looking at really kind of innovative
345
00:21:38,550 --> 00:21:40,830
things that my colleagues and I in the.
346
00:21:41,020 --> 00:21:44,260
Field of critical suicide
studies are really focused on,
347
00:21:44,980 --> 00:21:50,200
I imagine that was both confronting
and yet insightful for you.
348
00:21:50,889 --> 00:21:55,240
Now, I know you've done some, did
a project around working with women
349
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in round distress and suicide.
350
00:21:57,790 --> 00:22:02,530
What did you learn from that experience
and what surprised or moved you?
351
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Yeah.
352
00:22:03,210 --> 00:22:07,199
What was really powerful about that
was, first and foremost, it was a
353
00:22:07,199 --> 00:22:12,149
reminder that grassroots groups are
actually much better at prevention
354
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:17,639
than anything, you know, funded by
the different levels of government.
355
00:22:17,699 --> 00:22:22,350
Number two was that
regional and rural suicide.
356
00:22:22,475 --> 00:22:27,094
Is really different to what happens in
urban centers around in Australia, and
357
00:22:27,094 --> 00:22:33,215
you cannot presume to understand rural
suicide, original suicide in the same way
358
00:22:33,215 --> 00:22:35,885
as you understand suicide in the cities.
359
00:22:36,544 --> 00:22:40,475
And you know what happens with a
lot of communities there is that
360
00:22:40,745 --> 00:22:43,145
they get really angry because I get.
361
00:22:43,165 --> 00:22:46,555
You know, these packages from
the cities to prevent suicide,
362
00:22:46,555 --> 00:22:48,055
and it just doesn't work at all.
363
00:22:48,565 --> 00:22:53,034
And they just refuse to do it and do
stuff themselves in a really powerful way.
364
00:22:53,395 --> 00:22:56,274
And the last thing that I
learned was that the women there.
365
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,420
Are not passive just because
they're suffering and often they
366
00:23:00,420 --> 00:23:01,920
have to take care of the farm.
367
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,750
They have to take care of the kids.
368
00:23:04,110 --> 00:23:07,920
They often have a part-time job to
bring an extra income into the family.
369
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:09,840
But these women are vulnerable.
370
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,270
Yes, but they are not passive.
371
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,640
And they do actually have answers.
372
00:23:15,294 --> 00:23:17,514
It's just, it's a matter of
whether someone's prepared
373
00:23:17,514 --> 00:23:18,655
to listen to them or not.
374
00:23:18,834 --> 00:23:22,584
And I think that could be said the
same for young people that I've learned
375
00:23:22,584 --> 00:23:27,235
about queer youth suicide is that, you
know, young people who struggle with
376
00:23:27,235 --> 00:23:31,405
suicide are vulnerable, but it doesn't
mean that they don't have a voice.
377
00:23:31,554 --> 00:23:34,165
You just have to listen to them
and be part of that journey.
378
00:23:34,495 --> 00:23:34,975
I really
379
00:23:34,975 --> 00:23:39,145
like what you've just said there
about the fact that vulnerability
380
00:23:39,235 --> 00:23:41,395
doesn't mean voicelessness.
381
00:23:41,790 --> 00:23:45,840
It seems to me it's a matter of whether
someone's really willing to listen.
382
00:23:46,050 --> 00:23:49,650
So with that in mind, what are
some of the systematic barriers to
383
00:23:49,650 --> 00:23:54,630
supporting people who are at risk
and how do those barriers affect the
384
00:23:54,630 --> 00:23:56,670
way in which the care is delivered?
385
00:23:57,090 --> 00:24:01,860
Um, look, I mean, I, I don't do that work
as much as my colleagues do, so I often
386
00:24:01,860 --> 00:24:03,690
feel like I'm slightly on the outside.
387
00:24:03,690 --> 00:24:06,450
But it's good in the sense 'cause
you see things differently.
388
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,940
I think a lot of the times
funding is a problem.
389
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:14,640
So, and I mean, we are terribly
underfunded in the mental health space.
390
00:24:14,730 --> 00:24:20,040
So, you know, personnel is stretched
and also often not supported when
391
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:25,380
it comes to crisis, and also not
trained well enough in the latest.
392
00:24:25,545 --> 00:24:26,140
I. Things.
393
00:24:26,170 --> 00:24:29,920
So, um, like I'm thinking of a
study that talks about emergency
394
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,480
centers and how suicide attempts
are treated by the staff and so on.
395
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,400
And it's, it's not good.
396
00:24:36,430 --> 00:24:40,480
I mean, we could often, you know,
those people are more concerned about
397
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,260
whether you live or die and, you know,
and the mental health team comes.
398
00:24:44,260 --> 00:24:47,950
Of course, all that kind of things
happen, but it's such a clinical
399
00:24:47,950 --> 00:24:51,220
space, so you know it's gonna work.
400
00:24:51,615 --> 00:24:55,455
But I need to a certain point, I
think for me as a philosopher, a
401
00:24:55,455 --> 00:24:57,555
couple of things are really important.
402
00:24:57,555 --> 00:25:01,905
First of all, we need to have spaces
in where we can talk about suicide
403
00:25:01,905 --> 00:25:05,175
without it being a cause of alarm.
404
00:25:05,445 --> 00:25:10,245
So, you know, my colleagues in UK who
are actually working in the mental health
405
00:25:10,245 --> 00:25:16,610
space and suicide, have come up with
the idea of death angst cafes, where you
406
00:25:16,615 --> 00:25:21,315
can talk about it without necessarily,
you know, someone calling services.
407
00:25:21,315 --> 00:25:23,535
Because everyone's talking about suicide.
408
00:25:23,535 --> 00:25:26,025
So I think that's really important.
409
00:25:26,025 --> 00:25:30,285
I think the other thing too is that
we really need to retrain ourselves
410
00:25:30,285 --> 00:25:34,575
on how we listen to people's suicide,
especially in crisis moments.
411
00:25:34,575 --> 00:25:39,255
And the other thing too is that, you
know, often people say, oh, well, you
412
00:25:39,255 --> 00:25:41,415
know, this person attempted suicide.
413
00:25:41,415 --> 00:25:44,925
That didn't really mean it,
because obviously it didn't work.
414
00:25:44,955 --> 00:25:45,915
They're not dead.
415
00:25:46,005 --> 00:25:48,825
And my response is always about.
416
00:25:49,115 --> 00:25:51,245
Shouldn't you be happy
that they're not dead?
417
00:25:51,545 --> 00:25:58,115
And even if or when someone is not
really wanting to suicide, isn't this
418
00:25:58,115 --> 00:26:05,435
potentially a way for them of finding life
again and even if or when they are being
419
00:26:05,435 --> 00:26:10,745
manipulative, isn't this an opportunity
to go, okay, what is going on here?
420
00:26:11,535 --> 00:26:14,955
Why are you in such a space that
you feel that this is how you reach
421
00:26:14,955 --> 00:26:19,665
out to people and you know, and that
might be a beginning of a better way
422
00:26:19,665 --> 00:26:25,035
of living, rather than, you know,
saying, well, that person is unstable
423
00:26:25,035 --> 00:26:27,525
mentally, and so give them tablets and.
424
00:26:27,915 --> 00:26:30,680
Put 'em through community
program and they'll be fine.
425
00:26:30,740 --> 00:26:31,730
And usually they're not.
426
00:26:31,940 --> 00:26:35,120
The other thing too, I mean, and
I know this is a really difficult
427
00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:40,400
and contentious thing to say, but
people often will say with the crisis
428
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,150
services that they're doing that,
you know, we need zero suicide.
429
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,230
And I don't think that's
possible because human beings
430
00:26:48,230 --> 00:26:50,535
have a way of making decisions.
431
00:26:50,930 --> 00:26:53,030
And often that's out of our control.
432
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:55,820
Even when we, you know,
prevention is a good idea.
433
00:26:56,415 --> 00:27:02,595
So, yeah, I think in a way it's, we
need to recalibrate our approaches to
434
00:27:02,595 --> 00:27:08,535
suicide before we actually go and say
approaches to preventing suicide or
435
00:27:08,535 --> 00:27:13,995
responding in crisis before we actually
come up with new ways of response.
436
00:27:14,715 --> 00:27:17,445
And, you know, that's a slow task.
437
00:27:18,405 --> 00:27:21,375
It doesn't get you funded, you
know, those kinds of things.
438
00:27:21,780 --> 00:27:26,520
Yes, so, well, I'd love to know, you
were talking about the work that you've
439
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:33,750
seen done with crisis groups and your
colleagues in that space, and you know,
440
00:27:33,780 --> 00:27:38,100
what seems to be lacking in mainstream
that isn't happening, that you think
441
00:27:38,100 --> 00:27:40,650
should be happening to support people.
442
00:27:40,890 --> 00:27:44,820
I think basically old methods are
being tried over and over again.
443
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,679
And more risk factors are added
to the list of risk factors of
444
00:27:49,679 --> 00:27:54,659
suicidality as if that counts for
innovation, when in fact it doesn't.
445
00:27:55,199 --> 00:28:01,740
And so basically, I think there's not
enough innovation because true and tried
446
00:28:01,740 --> 00:28:08,010
recipes, so to speak, are being applied
over and over again, presumably based on.
447
00:28:08,105 --> 00:28:12,365
Evidence when in fact people
increasingly say it's not working.
448
00:28:12,785 --> 00:28:17,435
And they often, like I found out a few
years ago, they people start their own
449
00:28:17,435 --> 00:28:21,845
grassroots organizations, especially
for bereavement off from suicide.
450
00:28:21,845 --> 00:28:23,855
So, you know, I think we need to.
451
00:28:24,225 --> 00:28:28,365
A major reframing of
how we approach suicide.
452
00:28:28,875 --> 00:28:34,725
Stop focusing on risk factors alone,
that people do talk about protective
453
00:28:34,725 --> 00:28:41,115
factors, but it's, in a way it's still
incredibly clinical and also have spaces
454
00:28:41,145 --> 00:28:46,754
where people can actually talk about
suicide without fear of being sectioned,
455
00:28:46,814 --> 00:28:49,365
or the fear of being treated like.
456
00:28:49,380 --> 00:28:52,500
There's something really wrong
with you and you're really sick.
457
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,260
You know, when in fact they're
going through something incredibly
458
00:28:55,260 --> 00:28:59,520
intense and existential and
they need someone to listen.
459
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,660
It's almost like we have to, I mean,
we've got Lifeline, we have all those
460
00:29:03,660 --> 00:29:07,680
kinds of services, and they've had
played a really important role, but
461
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,020
often they're not funded well enough.
462
00:29:10,350 --> 00:29:16,110
And having done a work in rural South
Australia on suicide prevention, it's so
463
00:29:16,110 --> 00:29:18,210
clear there's just not enough services.
464
00:29:18,574 --> 00:29:23,524
And the people, you know, there's
like the whole region one gp and
465
00:29:23,554 --> 00:29:27,334
to call, get a psychologist on
board, you have to wait six months.
466
00:29:27,935 --> 00:29:32,165
So, you know, it is just chronic,
underfunded, and also reliance
467
00:29:32,165 --> 00:29:37,745
on all methods of responding to
suicide, preventing suicide with the
468
00:29:37,745 --> 00:29:42,185
argument that it's based on evidence,
where in fact, increasingly that
469
00:29:42,185 --> 00:29:44,044
evidence isn't actually as strong.
470
00:29:44,445 --> 00:29:49,155
But also being really culturally aware
of certain things around gender norms,
471
00:29:49,665 --> 00:29:54,555
how we interpret people based on class,
based on their race and their ethnicity,
472
00:29:54,945 --> 00:29:58,545
of course, also their sexuality,
you know, those kinds of things.
473
00:29:58,545 --> 00:30:02,685
We have to be really culturally
aware a lot more than what
474
00:30:02,685 --> 00:30:04,425
the bigger bodies are saying.
475
00:30:05,235 --> 00:30:08,625
Are you seeing in the data
that you are, you're privy to?
476
00:30:08,910 --> 00:30:12,690
Are you seeing that those
factors are contributing to an
477
00:30:12,690 --> 00:30:14,760
increase in suicide attempts?
478
00:30:15,330 --> 00:30:19,920
When those sort of gender or
sexuality, those sort of issues
479
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,990
are being called out as a cause?
480
00:30:22,230 --> 00:30:23,340
Yeah, sometimes I do.
481
00:30:23,340 --> 00:30:23,879
It depends.
482
00:30:23,879 --> 00:30:27,810
I think context is everything when
it comes to understanding suicide.
483
00:30:28,260 --> 00:30:31,500
So there might be
contributing to suicidality.
484
00:30:31,590 --> 00:30:35,940
Young men or actually middle
aged men are quite suicidal.
485
00:30:36,310 --> 00:30:38,020
Older people are quite suicidal.
486
00:30:38,020 --> 00:30:41,410
So you know, things like that
could be called the so-called risk
487
00:30:41,410 --> 00:30:44,920
factor, except I actually personally
don't believe in risk factors.
488
00:30:45,010 --> 00:30:50,860
But to me it's also like they might
be contributing to suicidality,
489
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,940
but they might also be contributing
to why suicide prevention is
490
00:30:54,940 --> 00:30:56,650
really just not effective enough.
491
00:30:57,125 --> 00:31:02,284
And why people will not pursue counseling
services because they simply think
492
00:31:02,284 --> 00:31:05,705
they're not being heard or listened
to, or no one will believe them.
493
00:31:06,274 --> 00:31:12,125
And there are some really interesting
groups and funded services doing
494
00:31:12,125 --> 00:31:15,725
really wonderful work, but often
they don't last long enough.
495
00:31:16,275 --> 00:31:20,625
So what can we do to create a safe space?
496
00:31:20,745 --> 00:31:22,515
Have these discussions,
497
00:31:22,665 --> 00:31:27,795
I think be open to those discussions,
which I think is really difficult.
498
00:31:28,245 --> 00:31:31,665
Also, you know, and this is
something that will take, it won't
499
00:31:31,665 --> 00:31:33,345
take overnight, but actually.
500
00:31:33,925 --> 00:31:35,334
Create an attitude.
501
00:31:35,574 --> 00:31:39,175
'cause often people say, we need
to overcome stigma, but at the
502
00:31:39,175 --> 00:31:42,205
end of the day, the attitude is
that if you're suicidal, then
503
00:31:42,205 --> 00:31:43,705
something's really wrong with you.
504
00:31:43,915 --> 00:31:46,345
And when people think there's
something really wrong with them,
505
00:31:46,345 --> 00:31:50,784
they feel guilty and they shut
down and they'll reach out only.
506
00:31:50,955 --> 00:31:54,225
If they are desperate or
when they are desperate.
507
00:31:54,585 --> 00:32:01,335
So I think we need to have a much
more collective approach to suicide
508
00:32:01,335 --> 00:32:06,375
and suicide prevention, because
I think a lot about the topic I.
509
00:32:06,530 --> 00:32:11,210
Belongs to psychiatry,
psychology, medicine, social work.
510
00:32:11,570 --> 00:32:14,120
Those are important disciplines
and professions, but
511
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:15,560
they're not the only ones.
512
00:32:15,740 --> 00:32:19,639
We have to socially and culturally
create those spaces, have those.
513
00:32:20,090 --> 00:32:25,370
For instance, my colleagues are doing
New K existential angst cafes, you know?
514
00:32:26,105 --> 00:32:30,905
And also do things which sometimes
are really counterintuitive.
515
00:32:30,905 --> 00:32:32,225
So I'll give you an example.
516
00:32:32,225 --> 00:32:36,725
My colleague from a while ago now, he
did this, he's in US, Michael Crow.
517
00:32:36,755 --> 00:32:40,025
He's an anthropologist, he's
retired now, and a psychologist.
518
00:32:40,235 --> 00:32:47,675
So he was called to respond to a massive
crisis of Inuit suicide in Canada.
519
00:32:48,095 --> 00:32:51,695
Communities were being
basically decimated, and one
520
00:32:51,695 --> 00:32:52,685
of the things he actually did.
521
00:32:53,294 --> 00:32:58,365
Do is that they built a house,
turned into a community center,
522
00:32:58,754 --> 00:33:04,425
gave the young people ownership and
leadership roles, and suicide rates
523
00:33:04,455 --> 00:33:07,245
dropped to nothing within months.
524
00:33:08,085 --> 00:33:11,415
So in a sense, building a space.
525
00:33:11,879 --> 00:33:14,280
What made it happen in for that community?
526
00:33:14,850 --> 00:33:20,280
You know, I don't have specific answers,
I suppose, but my sense is that when
527
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,690
it comes to suicide, there's a lot
of guilt that's attached to the act.
528
00:33:25,169 --> 00:33:29,820
People that try to kill themselves
and don't succeed, but also people who
529
00:33:29,820 --> 00:33:33,810
are grieving, they blamed themselves
that they didn't see anything in
530
00:33:33,810 --> 00:33:36,360
time, they couldn't respond and.
531
00:33:36,885 --> 00:33:44,205
My sense is that, you know, only 10% of
suicidal people are noticed and the rest
532
00:33:44,205 --> 00:33:48,105
are not, because it's actually really
hard to see if anyone's suicidal or not.
533
00:33:48,135 --> 00:33:53,205
They have to be at the end of their tether
in a very particular, distressing way.
534
00:33:53,895 --> 00:33:57,315
So, you know, I often say to
people who have lost others through
535
00:33:57,315 --> 00:33:59,925
suicide is it's not informed.
536
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:05,430
We have to have an approach to
suicide that says, it's okay.
537
00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:06,389
It's not your fault.
538
00:34:07,020 --> 00:34:08,159
You couldn't see it.
539
00:34:08,670 --> 00:34:13,110
It's still a loss, and you may not
know why someone killed themselves
540
00:34:13,409 --> 00:34:15,929
completely, but it's still not your fault.
541
00:34:16,889 --> 00:34:21,360
So I've given you kind of a really
philosophical roundabout explanation,
542
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:26,130
but a lot of it's to do with rethinking
how we make approaches before we
543
00:34:26,130 --> 00:34:28,380
put specific initiative to work.
544
00:34:28,965 --> 00:34:35,534
And it sounds, from what you're saying is
that it's not just looking at one aspect
545
00:34:35,534 --> 00:34:42,315
or one part of the demographic, but the
whole of the surrounding societal factors.
546
00:34:42,435 --> 00:34:42,764
Yeah.
547
00:34:43,034 --> 00:34:47,864
It's like when wonderful historian
Maria Tomakin ages ago wrote
548
00:34:47,864 --> 00:34:49,395
a book called Trauma Escapes.
549
00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:54,570
And she looked at different trauma
sites, war sites, natural disaster,
550
00:34:54,570 --> 00:34:59,670
and her argument was that trauma
needs to stop being the property of
551
00:34:59,670 --> 00:35:03,030
psychiatry, psychology, and medicine.
552
00:35:03,060 --> 00:35:07,140
It needs to be social, cultural,
and collective where we can talk
553
00:35:07,140 --> 00:35:11,490
about trauma because unless we learn
how to talk about it and face it.
554
00:35:12,045 --> 00:35:17,115
Then we're gonna be stuck in a cycle of
grief and not being to talk about things.
555
00:35:17,115 --> 00:35:17,505
You know?
556
00:35:17,535 --> 00:35:21,375
And silence often is not
very good in this area.
557
00:35:21,375 --> 00:35:26,625
And I think of this to Markin's
argument in response to exactly
558
00:35:26,625 --> 00:35:27,555
what you're kind of saying.
559
00:35:27,555 --> 00:35:29,444
We need a much larger approach.
560
00:35:29,970 --> 00:35:34,799
A change in tactic in the way you know,
that we actually approach suicide and
561
00:35:34,799 --> 00:35:39,750
also be really brave and courageous
and change and put innovative practices
562
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,009
into work rather than depending on
things that have, we've been using
563
00:35:44,009 --> 00:35:45,540
for the last 50 years, really.
564
00:35:46,020 --> 00:35:49,770
And there is some really innovative stuff
coming out, but it's often not very well
565
00:35:49,770 --> 00:35:53,459
supported and it's often grassroots and
it's often people like you, Catherine,
566
00:35:53,459 --> 00:35:57,419
that start something and go, yeah,
we need to, we need to know stuff.
567
00:35:57,810 --> 00:36:02,160
And tell me about your work that you
mentioned when we first started talking
568
00:36:02,580 --> 00:36:05,100
about the role poetry has played.
569
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:05,460
Yeah.
570
00:36:05,940 --> 00:36:10,080
Because that's something that you
wouldn't normally put the two together.
571
00:36:10,380 --> 00:36:14,280
So I'm fascinated to hear with the
work that you are doing in that
572
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,000
space and the connection you've
made and how that came about.
573
00:36:18,375 --> 00:36:22,904
Uh, it started at a conference, so I
was at a conference in University of
574
00:36:22,904 --> 00:36:30,435
Oxford, I think 2011 or 10, and I was
in a panel with this Canadian academic
575
00:36:30,464 --> 00:36:36,225
who was talking about the use of poetry
in coping with the psychosis of his son.
576
00:36:36,509 --> 00:36:41,279
And so, you know, we started chatting,
I was talking about depression, gender,
577
00:36:41,279 --> 00:36:45,870
and suicide, and how women are diagnosed
with depression more often than men.
578
00:36:45,870 --> 00:36:50,339
And if they are less suicidal it's
probably because they are managed through
579
00:36:50,339 --> 00:36:53,100
the mental health system, you know, that.
580
00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:54,870
So that was my argument back then.
581
00:36:54,870 --> 00:36:58,919
I mean, it wasn't new, you know,
we started just talking and we met
582
00:36:58,919 --> 00:37:03,750
again the following year and he
was sitting at the back with me
583
00:37:03,810 --> 00:37:05,910
and he met some, a friend of his.
584
00:37:06,174 --> 00:37:11,245
Daniel Scott is his name I should say, and
Daniel was met someone a few days earlier,
585
00:37:11,275 --> 00:37:15,805
a dear friend of his, I think, whose
child killed themselves and he just wanted
586
00:37:15,805 --> 00:37:21,295
to spend time anyway, so he's sitting
at the back next to me and he starts
587
00:37:21,295 --> 00:37:27,625
writing poetry and I'm trying to pay
attention to the paper at the front and
588
00:37:27,625 --> 00:37:29,695
looking at the poetry at the same time.
589
00:37:29,785 --> 00:37:33,565
And I just, because I'm, you
know, I'm so Bolshevik, I went.
590
00:37:34,035 --> 00:37:35,475
We're gonna write about that.
591
00:37:37,395 --> 00:37:40,335
And so that was the beginning of a
beautiful, lifelong friendship, really.
592
00:37:40,395 --> 00:37:41,925
And now I know his family.
593
00:37:41,925 --> 00:37:46,185
And so we started thinking about
how the function of poetry and
594
00:37:46,185 --> 00:37:51,465
how it becomes a different area
of understanding and suicide.
595
00:37:51,465 --> 00:37:55,905
So what was really interesting
was that a few years ago, he
596
00:37:55,905 --> 00:37:58,905
put a call for poets to submit.
597
00:37:59,310 --> 00:38:04,680
For an anthology of poetry on suicide
and he called the book Voicing Suicide.
598
00:38:05,460 --> 00:38:09,540
He puts out the coal and he thinks
maybe he'll get, you know, he'll
599
00:38:09,540 --> 00:38:11,310
be lucky if he gets 50 poems.
600
00:38:11,310 --> 00:38:13,200
He gets 250.
601
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:14,055
I. Wow.
602
00:38:14,805 --> 00:38:19,575
So, you know, suddenly it was
just like the Watergates opened.
603
00:38:19,575 --> 00:38:23,984
And so he asked me to write an essay
in response to all that poetry.
604
00:38:24,315 --> 00:38:28,904
And then we had book launches and it
was all during Covid, so it was online.
605
00:38:29,355 --> 00:38:31,214
But what was really fascinating.
606
00:38:31,530 --> 00:38:37,230
Was that I was part of one of the book
launches and you know, I said a little
607
00:38:37,230 --> 00:38:41,880
bit, Daniel said a little bit, and then
the rest of the audience were either
608
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:47,520
the poets who contributed and the rest,
people from mental health, from, you know.
609
00:38:48,370 --> 00:38:51,819
All sorts of walks of life
and the conversation that
610
00:38:51,819 --> 00:38:54,100
followed was astonishing.
611
00:38:54,130 --> 00:38:56,650
People started opening
about their experiences.
612
00:38:56,650 --> 00:39:00,460
So for the poets that contributed,
it was usually because they either
613
00:39:00,460 --> 00:39:05,350
a, experienced suicide themselves or
have lost someone through suicide.
614
00:39:05,350 --> 00:39:08,980
So their poetry was all about
that and the conversation.
615
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,590
It was just astonishing how open it was.
616
00:39:12,590 --> 00:39:15,590
And then people from mental
health community started asking,
617
00:39:15,590 --> 00:39:17,570
well, how might this work?
618
00:39:17,570 --> 00:39:19,490
You know, all those kinds of things.
619
00:39:19,490 --> 00:39:21,830
And it was like, I remember
saying this to Daniel.
620
00:39:22,340 --> 00:39:26,660
This is the kind of conversation
and discussion that never happens in
621
00:39:26,660 --> 00:39:29,000
counseling rooms, in grief counseling.
622
00:39:29,390 --> 00:39:30,440
What's going on here?
623
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:36,890
Why is it that, that it happens here,
but the kind of honesty and openness.
624
00:39:37,275 --> 00:39:39,705
Isn't enabled elsewhere.
625
00:39:40,275 --> 00:39:44,205
And so, you know, this is what got me
to thinking that, you know, we need to
626
00:39:44,205 --> 00:39:49,965
really create spaces of discussion and
also perhaps workshops, you know, in
627
00:39:49,965 --> 00:39:53,325
which I've actually written about that,
where, you know, writing poetry about
628
00:39:53,325 --> 00:39:58,634
suicide is a therapeutic mode of actually
dealing with the complexity of suicide.
629
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:03,210
But also, you know, people might want
to not do it for therapy necessarily,
630
00:40:03,210 --> 00:40:07,530
but come and write some poetry, write
short stories, whatever it is, and that
631
00:40:07,530 --> 00:40:13,290
somehow writing it taps to that part of
the brain that releases the emotions, and
632
00:40:13,290 --> 00:40:18,630
that kind of allows them to kind of come
to naming what happened in their life.
633
00:40:19,050 --> 00:40:23,880
So poetry has this amazing function
insofar as, as it captures the
634
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,390
content of suicide, but then its form.
635
00:40:27,805 --> 00:40:31,885
Actually captures something else
about suicide that is often really
636
00:40:31,885 --> 00:40:33,985
difficult to name, to speak about.
637
00:40:34,135 --> 00:40:39,985
And it gives people permission as a
result because maybe as a creative, as
638
00:40:39,985 --> 00:40:46,135
a source form of creative art, it gives
people permission to kind of face to
639
00:40:46,135 --> 00:40:49,375
the topic of suicide differently than.
640
00:40:49,410 --> 00:40:53,910
In comparison if you were in
other spaces, in other contexts.
641
00:40:53,910 --> 00:40:58,920
So it's, and for me it's like I'm
often struck at how powerful fiction
642
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:03,509
is, for instance, in convincing people
of social justice issues, and that
643
00:41:03,509 --> 00:41:08,250
in fact it is far more powerful to go
to a writer's week when writers, for
644
00:41:08,250 --> 00:41:12,210
instance, are discussing different
issues, are writing about them in
645
00:41:12,210 --> 00:41:14,879
fiction as opposed to going to a lecture.
646
00:41:14,935 --> 00:41:19,705
On a topic of social justice, there's
nothing wrong with the lecture, but
647
00:41:19,705 --> 00:41:23,815
we have to think about the medium
in which we convey the message.
648
00:41:23,815 --> 00:41:24,865
You know, it's an old idea.
649
00:41:24,865 --> 00:41:28,525
The medium is the message in media
studies, but you know, so it's
650
00:41:28,615 --> 00:41:33,745
because there is something about the
medium of poetry that offers people a
651
00:41:33,745 --> 00:41:35,725
chance to give themselves permission.
652
00:41:36,085 --> 00:41:40,194
To be more brave, more honest,
more everything you know?
653
00:41:40,345 --> 00:41:44,935
So I was thinking just then when we
met during the death festival, there
654
00:41:44,935 --> 00:41:49,015
was another group there from Melbourne
and it's about the Queer Death Cafe.
655
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:53,819
It's a fantastic, I mean,
that's the stuff we need to be
656
00:41:53,819 --> 00:41:56,580
doing at a much larger scale.
657
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,980
Rather than saying, oh no,
you can't talk about suicide.
658
00:41:59,250 --> 00:42:00,540
Oh no, that's terrible.
659
00:42:00,630 --> 00:42:02,490
Let's talk about it.
660
00:42:02,790 --> 00:42:06,569
Because it actually might mean that
some people will find a way of living
661
00:42:06,630 --> 00:42:11,790
as a result that it's actually fruitful
and rewarding, rather than going from
662
00:42:11,790 --> 00:42:14,040
one psychiatric facility to another.
663
00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:15,480
Yeah, so
664
00:42:15,750 --> 00:42:19,830
it's interesting, you know, I've seen
personally from my time when I was
665
00:42:19,830 --> 00:42:22,290
working at the Royal Botanic Gardens.
666
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:30,270
When you actually engage someone who is
creative to convey scientific messaging
667
00:42:30,270 --> 00:42:35,310
or talk about a particular topic, the way
in which they approach it is very, very
668
00:42:35,310 --> 00:42:40,950
different to an academic, scientific way
of approaching Absolutely a topic and.
669
00:42:41,310 --> 00:42:46,290
It creates a, a safe space
for experimentation and it's
670
00:42:46,290 --> 00:42:48,360
a lot more open at times.
671
00:42:48,390 --> 00:42:52,920
Mm. What I've seen is it allows
for creative expression where
672
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:54,299
there's no right or wrong.
673
00:42:54,570 --> 00:42:55,035
That's right.
674
00:42:55,505 --> 00:42:59,070
It's that, you know, the
judgment I. Is suspended, the
675
00:42:59,070 --> 00:43:01,230
moralizing is suspended, kind of.
676
00:43:01,230 --> 00:43:05,700
It's, you know, it's over there for
the time being, and you can be who
677
00:43:05,700 --> 00:43:09,120
and what you are and however you
want to express yourself, you know?
678
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:13,920
And it's so powerful and so different
than sitting in front of a clinician
679
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:15,720
and saying, yep, I'm feeling sad.
680
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:18,150
I haven't got it out of bed for six weeks.
681
00:43:18,180 --> 00:43:21,960
You know, those kinds of things because
in that kind of space, it's a different
682
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,420
kind of exercise of expression.
683
00:43:25,049 --> 00:43:29,490
Of what is really difficult to express,
I think, and also sometimes, you know,
684
00:43:29,490 --> 00:43:33,390
I think, you know, like thinking with
creativity and especially if you're
685
00:43:33,390 --> 00:43:37,919
in the company of other people,
which also means you're not alone.
686
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:44,730
Because if in a way, suicide, like
I said earlier, is an existential
687
00:43:44,730 --> 00:43:46,230
issue, first and foremost.
688
00:43:46,590 --> 00:43:50,490
But part of the existential issue,
and I've just marked the PhD thesis
689
00:43:50,490 --> 00:43:55,680
in philosophy, is this real extreme
existential loneliness where
690
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:57,690
people feel cut off from the world.
691
00:43:58,170 --> 00:44:01,950
They might be surrounded by
people, but they still feel alone.
692
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,330
And the other thing is also a
profound loss of trust in the world.
693
00:44:06,670 --> 00:44:12,370
And to me it's like if you are in company
of someone creative or in a group talking
694
00:44:12,370 --> 00:44:16,750
about creative arts and suicides, you
realize that this is not just you.
695
00:44:17,205 --> 00:44:18,765
Mm. Yeah.
696
00:44:18,765 --> 00:44:19,154
Which I also
697
00:44:19,154 --> 00:44:20,174
mean it's not your fault.
698
00:44:20,535 --> 00:44:26,084
And, um, there was a great report that I
read and I had Michelle Lim from Ending
699
00:44:26,084 --> 00:44:28,634
Loneliness on the podcast last year.
700
00:44:28,754 --> 00:44:34,185
They released a great report just
showing the statistics on how common
701
00:44:34,185 --> 00:44:39,435
it is for people to feel alone, even
though they could be in a room full
702
00:44:39,435 --> 00:44:43,484
of people, there are moments that
they still feel alone and mm-hmm.
703
00:44:43,950 --> 00:44:44,340
Oh, absolutely.
704
00:44:45,030 --> 00:44:50,340
And I thought that that report was
fantastic for people to realize that
705
00:44:50,340 --> 00:44:54,930
there were other people that felt
perhaps like they do, maybe even
706
00:44:54,930 --> 00:44:59,235
standing in the same room they were
as they were experiencing it, and.
707
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:05,280
I think that there is something in the
fact that the more conversations we have
708
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:10,770
about looking at these issues that we have
that are perhaps sometimes taboo, whether
709
00:45:10,770 --> 00:45:14,400
it be loneliness or suicide, death itself.
710
00:45:14,430 --> 00:45:20,280
Mm. Where we can look at it more and have
more open conversations as a collective.
711
00:45:20,370 --> 00:45:20,910
Exactly.
712
00:45:21,585 --> 00:45:25,335
Then there's more opportunities to be
creative with how we come about it.
713
00:45:25,575 --> 00:45:30,195
And you're so right, like the queer
as death crew down here in Melbourne,
714
00:45:30,195 --> 00:45:32,380
you know, hiney and Alex are Yeah.
715
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,345
Are really leading the way in
providing that peer support
716
00:45:36,675 --> 00:45:38,535
for people in that space.
717
00:45:38,625 --> 00:45:38,805
Um,
718
00:45:38,805 --> 00:45:39,315
absolutely.
719
00:45:39,315 --> 00:45:42,855
So they should be getting a lot
of funding for me in my books.
720
00:45:42,855 --> 00:45:47,805
You know, they are really doing the
grassroots stuff that needs to happen.
721
00:45:48,185 --> 00:45:52,535
They need to be funded, encouraged,
but unfortunately those kinds of
722
00:45:52,535 --> 00:45:58,385
groups struggle and have to be super
creative in order to maintain, you
723
00:45:58,385 --> 00:46:00,335
know, the funding or whatever it is.
724
00:46:00,335 --> 00:46:00,875
Right.
725
00:46:00,875 --> 00:46:02,915
So it's absolutely.
726
00:46:03,515 --> 00:46:07,895
So for someone who's, who's
listening today, Katrina, what do you
727
00:46:07,895 --> 00:46:10,865
suggest to them if they have cons?
728
00:46:10,865 --> 00:46:14,645
Firstly, I would say, what
would you suggest to a loved one
729
00:46:14,645 --> 00:46:17,285
who has concerns about where.
730
00:46:17,605 --> 00:46:21,384
One of their loved ones might be
at within their space, what would
731
00:46:21,384 --> 00:46:23,125
you recommend for them to do?
732
00:46:23,484 --> 00:46:28,165
I would recommend for them to make pumpkin
soup and sit down and eat with them.
733
00:46:28,645 --> 00:46:29,154
That's it.
734
00:46:30,895 --> 00:46:32,694
Or I don't know anything else.
735
00:46:32,694 --> 00:46:36,955
So I think a lot of these, you
know, recommendations for me, I'm
736
00:46:36,955 --> 00:46:40,765
always like, if you go to someone
and say, look, I'm really worried.
737
00:46:40,794 --> 00:46:41,515
What's wrong with you?
738
00:46:42,145 --> 00:46:44,035
That person's gonna turn off and run away.
739
00:46:45,375 --> 00:46:49,004
If you're going to come, you
know, put the, the s word
740
00:46:49,035 --> 00:46:53,205
attached to, you know, a possible
conversation or a possible meeting.
741
00:46:53,595 --> 00:46:58,544
So it's in a way you have to go sideways
in order to get to the matter at hand.
742
00:46:58,964 --> 00:47:01,575
And you know, so sit down with someone.
743
00:47:01,665 --> 00:47:05,535
Don't sit face to face, because often
if someone's suicidal or they'll feel
744
00:47:05,535 --> 00:47:10,544
really looking directly at someone,
the stress is not a good thing.
745
00:47:11,084 --> 00:47:12,975
And just, you know.
746
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:17,070
Eat something, drink a
cup of tea, and just talk.
747
00:47:17,070 --> 00:47:18,000
How you going?
748
00:47:18,300 --> 00:47:20,610
I think you know, you're
not your usual self.
749
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:23,640
You know, something like that
because usually if you know someone,
750
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:25,140
you know how to engage them.
751
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:30,840
Often to prevent suicide is to
not do the preventing of suicide.
752
00:47:31,020 --> 00:47:32,640
It's kind of a paradox.
753
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:38,310
You actually just do something completely
counterintuitive and make pumpkin soup.
754
00:47:40,035 --> 00:47:44,325
And you know, I mean because suicide
is about making connection with
755
00:47:44,325 --> 00:47:49,335
someone and responding to their need
and whatever that connection might be.
756
00:47:49,335 --> 00:47:53,565
It might be through company and
listening with food being as a medium,
757
00:47:53,745 --> 00:47:57,915
or it might be, as I said earlier,
building a community whole, or it
758
00:47:57,915 --> 00:48:02,860
might be at a collective level like
the festival of of Death and dying.
759
00:48:04,050 --> 00:48:07,380
But you know, because at the
end of the day, sitting side by
760
00:48:07,380 --> 00:48:12,750
side with someone and say eating
something, it's creating safe space.
761
00:48:13,350 --> 00:48:16,530
And so, you know, and that
can be incredibly powerful.
762
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:21,000
And also saying, you know,
to someone, like I often say
763
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:22,290
to people, don't freak out.
764
00:48:23,325 --> 00:48:23,805
Don't.
765
00:48:23,865 --> 00:48:24,044
Don't.
766
00:48:24,134 --> 00:48:25,725
Oh my God, are you okay?
767
00:48:26,084 --> 00:48:26,924
None of that.
768
00:48:26,924 --> 00:48:33,524
Be really patient, be really
calm and honest, and just be
769
00:48:33,524 --> 00:48:36,044
there for that person and listen.
770
00:48:36,345 --> 00:48:38,325
Because often that's
what will make it work.
771
00:48:38,564 --> 00:48:41,205
Respecting what that
person's going through.
772
00:48:41,625 --> 00:48:45,705
Not saying, oh, you must, we must take you
to the doctor, unless of course there's
773
00:48:45,705 --> 00:48:47,895
something really distressing going on.
774
00:48:48,464 --> 00:48:52,845
You know, those kinds of things
will often help because that's in a
775
00:48:52,845 --> 00:48:54,495
way then overcomes, you know what?
776
00:48:54,495 --> 00:48:55,725
They talk about stigma.
777
00:48:55,785 --> 00:48:59,384
I mean, as a philosopher, I think
there's more to it, but it overcomes
778
00:48:59,384 --> 00:49:03,944
the heavy weight that often comes
with suicide or it comes with death.
779
00:49:04,140 --> 00:49:06,420
Especially, I mean, you know
this so well too, right?
780
00:49:06,420 --> 00:49:10,920
What we're talking about last year,
that we live in a society which weirdly
781
00:49:11,430 --> 00:49:17,160
is obsessed about watching death on TV
screens and has managed death really well,
782
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,650
and somehow is incredibly afraid of it.
783
00:49:20,595 --> 00:49:23,654
And just will not address
it until it has to.
784
00:49:23,895 --> 00:49:26,745
There's no choice until
you're caught dead.
785
00:49:27,435 --> 00:49:28,455
So, you know.
786
00:49:28,575 --> 00:49:31,904
Yeah, and look, I think, you know,
I often say, and this is from a
787
00:49:31,904 --> 00:49:38,085
philosophical perspective, if I can
divorce ethics from morality in suicide,
788
00:49:38,325 --> 00:49:40,065
I'll be really happy about that.
789
00:49:40,485 --> 00:49:42,134
Probably won't happen in my lifetime.
790
00:49:42,170 --> 00:49:46,910
But you know, because there's a difference
between ethics and morality in my mind.
791
00:49:46,970 --> 00:49:53,000
And you know, if we actually say that
suicide is a human phenomenon and people
792
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:58,490
need to be respected and that we need
to witness what's going on for them and
793
00:49:58,490 --> 00:50:00,500
keep company to them with compassion.
794
00:50:00,890 --> 00:50:04,010
And you know, empathy and care.
795
00:50:04,100 --> 00:50:06,980
Then I think we might actually
slowly turn things around.
796
00:50:07,430 --> 00:50:11,450
But really interestingly though, Japan,
for instance, as I've learned a few
797
00:50:11,450 --> 00:50:16,610
years ago when I was there, Japan doesn't
see suicide as immoral or unethical.
798
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:18,950
It just sees it as a sad phenomenon.
799
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:20,480
But it just happens.
800
00:50:20,990 --> 00:50:24,680
But the problem Japan has, as I've
learned from Japanese colleagues, is
801
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,170
that mental health is a moral problem.
802
00:50:28,379 --> 00:50:30,720
There's something wrong with
you if you're mentally unwell.
803
00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:31,049
Right.
804
00:50:31,589 --> 00:50:33,330
But with suicide, they're
like, yeah, that's really
805
00:50:33,330 --> 00:50:35,580
sad, but this is what happens.
806
00:50:35,609 --> 00:50:39,149
It's fascinating, but it's a, it's
a different society, different
807
00:50:39,149 --> 00:50:42,359
philosophies, you know, over
centuries, thousands of years.
808
00:50:42,359 --> 00:50:45,544
So yeah, all things I'm
suggesting won't be, you know.
809
00:50:46,055 --> 00:50:46,774
Most of them.
810
00:50:46,774 --> 00:50:49,595
I think you are not gonna
achieve this overnight.
811
00:50:49,595 --> 00:50:53,705
But this is why I think something like
queer as death as one example, should
812
00:50:53,705 --> 00:50:58,415
be thoroughly supported and you know,
praised for the work they're doing.
813
00:50:58,415 --> 00:51:02,855
Because especially with queer kids,
trans, you know, trans young people,
814
00:51:02,944 --> 00:51:07,415
they just want a sense, you know, amongst
other things, a sense of recognition
815
00:51:07,654 --> 00:51:10,504
and respect that who they are counts.
816
00:51:11,025 --> 00:51:14,895
And that they matter and that
what they're going through is real
817
00:51:15,495 --> 00:51:16,755
and that it's not their fault.
818
00:51:17,205 --> 00:51:17,535
You know?
819
00:51:17,535 --> 00:51:22,095
And those are really powerful things, but
sometimes they're really hard, especially
820
00:51:22,095 --> 00:51:26,025
if you lost someone through suicide
and you're grieving and you know, oh,
821
00:51:26,025 --> 00:51:30,825
someone's attempted and you're trying to
deal, you know, respond to that person and
822
00:51:30,825 --> 00:51:33,105
you're angry, how come they've done it?
823
00:51:33,105 --> 00:51:34,365
And all that kind of stuff.
824
00:51:34,515 --> 00:51:36,135
So I think this is where, you know.
825
00:51:36,700 --> 00:51:37,840
That's fair too.
826
00:51:37,900 --> 00:51:42,460
But it's not the same as saying to
someone who's struggling with suicide.
827
00:51:42,820 --> 00:51:43,930
It's not your fault.
828
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,450
This isn't wrong, but
something's going on.
829
00:51:46,930 --> 00:51:50,890
I think, I mean, to to end the
point, and I'm always, I don't
830
00:51:50,890 --> 00:51:52,300
think he does this anymore.
831
00:51:52,780 --> 00:51:56,290
There was a show about
this retired army general.
832
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:58,650
Somewhere quite high in the Japanese army.
833
00:51:59,100 --> 00:52:04,290
And what he did was it happened, I
think it's on the, oh, I'm not very
834
00:52:04,290 --> 00:52:08,670
good with geography, Japanese geography,
but basically in Japan there's a
835
00:52:08,670 --> 00:52:11,430
suicide forest where people go and die.
836
00:52:11,430 --> 00:52:15,510
I've done some field work there,
but also there's another on the
837
00:52:15,540 --> 00:52:20,340
other side where there is these
cliffs and really rough seeds.
838
00:52:20,370 --> 00:52:22,470
Basically what that.
839
00:52:23,009 --> 00:52:27,149
Man did, and I don't know whether he's
still alive and doesn't, is that just,
840
00:52:27,149 --> 00:52:32,520
he lives in the area and he just walks
the coast with a famous of green tea
841
00:52:32,879 --> 00:52:36,990
and he sees people, he always goes to
places where people usually jump, but
842
00:52:36,990 --> 00:52:40,680
places, cities, or, you know, like in
Sydney, the gap, you know, there's always
843
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:42,359
hotspots, what they call them, hotspots.
844
00:52:42,509 --> 00:52:47,910
And so he just walks around and if he sees
someone, you know, standing on the edge on
845
00:52:47,910 --> 00:52:49,560
the cliff, he just comes and says, hello.
846
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:51,290
Would you like to sit down and talk?
847
00:52:51,710 --> 00:52:55,520
And he just listens and gives them
green tea and that, that's what I
848
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:57,170
call effective suicide prevention.
849
00:52:57,650 --> 00:52:57,770
Yeah.
850
00:52:58,129 --> 00:53:00,529
And often he says people just
walk away and they don't come
851
00:53:00,529 --> 00:53:02,330
back because he's there every day.
852
00:53:02,665 --> 00:53:05,569
So, so if we had something, you know.
853
00:53:05,835 --> 00:53:09,255
Something like that, you know, or
something that is focused on a very
854
00:53:09,255 --> 00:53:14,355
different kind of listening and says, yes,
you can come here and talk about suicide
855
00:53:14,385 --> 00:53:16,245
and no, we're not going to section you.
856
00:53:16,725 --> 00:53:21,135
No, we're not going to, you know, take
you away as they do in Canada, you know?
857
00:53:21,850 --> 00:53:24,940
Where basically you're taken to a
hospital section, then you can't
858
00:53:24,940 --> 00:53:28,990
come out if you say anything, if
you express suicidality of any kind.
859
00:53:29,649 --> 00:53:32,500
I don't know whether that rule
is still, but I know a few years
860
00:53:32,500 --> 00:53:34,210
ago it was still in motion.
861
00:53:34,990 --> 00:53:39,100
If we give people spaces to talk about
those, you know, about things that
862
00:53:39,100 --> 00:53:43,960
are really difficult to talk about,
then perhaps, you know, we might start
863
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:48,160
changing, shifting attitudes in terms
of, you know, how suicide is viewed.
864
00:53:48,525 --> 00:53:49,125
Katrina.
865
00:53:49,125 --> 00:53:53,685
I think that that is such a beautiful
way to finish our conversation.
866
00:53:53,895 --> 00:53:59,415
That thought of that lovely man and his
green tea and the fact that I have to
867
00:53:59,415 --> 00:54:01,125
check out whether he's still alive now.
868
00:54:01,425 --> 00:54:01,935
Yeah.
869
00:54:02,115 --> 00:54:06,135
But, but also just the fact that
there, there could be a shift in
870
00:54:06,135 --> 00:54:11,805
how we have conversations and how we
can support people around suicide.
871
00:54:11,925 --> 00:54:12,495
Um, absolutely.
872
00:54:13,350 --> 00:54:14,850
Can't thank you enough for your time.
873
00:54:14,855 --> 00:54:15,345
Thank you so much.
874
00:54:15,345 --> 00:54:15,347
Thank you
875
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:17,070
for your time and inviting me.
876
00:54:17,100 --> 00:54:17,250
It's
877
00:54:17,250 --> 00:54:17,940
been the best.
878
00:54:17,970 --> 00:54:18,450
Thank you.
879
00:54:18,690 --> 00:54:19,560
Thanks, Katrina.
880
00:54:22,425 --> 00:54:25,845
We hope you enjoyed today's
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881
00:54:26,175 --> 00:54:27,915
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00:54:28,665 --> 00:54:32,925
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00:54:32,925 --> 00:54:34,755
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Make Death Admin Easy with The Critical Info Platform
A simple system to sort your personal paperwork for when your information becomes critical.
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My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?
Our guide, ‘My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?’ provides practical steps for the hours and days after a loved one's death. Purchase it here.
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Support Services
If you're feeling overwhelmed by grief, find support through our resources and bereavement services here.
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