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About this episode
Are you feeling disconnected in our modern world? You're not alone. In this eye-opening episode, we dive deep into the heart of social health with Joe Sehee, Executive Director of Social Health Australia. Joe shares his journey from green burial advocate to champion of human connection, revealing how we can combat loneliness and transform end-of-life care.
Joe takes us on a fascinating exploration of 'community companioning', a revolutionary approach to supporting those facing life's toughest challenges. From terminal illness to bereavement, learn how this simple yet profound practice is changing lives and reshaping our understanding of grief and loss.
But that's not all - Joe's insights into co-housing, the funeral industry, and conservation burial grounds will challenge your perceptions of community living and death care. Discover why the way we approach death might be the key to living more connected, meaningful lives.
Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine
Show notes
Guest Bio
Executive Director of Social Health Australia
Joe has provided sub-clinical social-emotional-existential support in a wide range of settings including hospitals, emergencies, and end-of-life contexts. A Peabody Award-winning journalist, Joe is founder of the Green Burial Council (US) and Co-Editor-in-Chief of the newly formed International Journal of Disability Policy and Advocacy. Joe was recently awarded a National Industry PhD Program scholarship to research new models of social/disability housing THAT FOSTER SOCIAL CONNECTIVITY.
Summary
Key Takeaways:
- The power of 'community companioning' in supporting those facing illness, grief, and loneliness
- How co-housing models can combat social isolation and foster genuine community
- The untold history of the American funeral industry and its impact on our relationship with death
- The potential of conservation burial grounds to revolutionise both ecology and end-of-life care
- Why being present is more important than finding the 'right words' when supporting someone through grief
- The surprising health benefits of social connection and its potential to reduce hospital
Transcript
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There are these life events that occur, death, divorce, losing one's job,
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being bullied at school, moving to a different city, all sorts of things that happen.
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And if you don't have a social support network to guide you through there,
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those things can be really much mo ... Read More
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There are these life events that occur, death, divorce, losing one's job,
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being bullied at school, moving to a different city, all sorts of things that happen.
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And if you don't have a social support network to guide you through there,
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those things can be really much more debilitating than they need to be.
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It's part of our common humanity to go through these things.
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It's not indicative of us being weak or disordered. It's what happens.
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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging open conversations about
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dying and the death of a loved one.
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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to
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bring your stories of death back to life.
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Because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared.
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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges the lands of the Kulin Nations and recognises
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their connection to land, sea and community.
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We pay our respects to their Elders, past, present and emerging and extend that
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respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe.
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Today we have Jo Seahe, Executive Director of Social Health Australia.
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Joe has provided subclinical, social-emotional, existential support in a wide
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range of settings, including hospitals, emergencies and end-of-life contexts.
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A Peabody Award-winning journalist, Joe is founder of the Green Burial Council
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in the United States and he's co-editor-in-chief of the newly formed International
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Journal of Disability Policy and Advocacy.
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Jo was recently awarded a National Industry PhD Program Scholarship to research
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new models of social and disability housing that foster social connectivity.
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Thank you so much for being with us, Joe. Thank you for having me.
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Now, that was a lot of big words that we just actually used in that introduction.
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I'm sure that you will make it a little bit more understandable for us as we go through.
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So what is your current role at Social Health Australia and what does it actually involve?
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So I am currently the executive director and executive officer.
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And while I'm finding out how much bandwidth I have while starting this PhD.
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But right now what I'm doing is making sure that we continue to bring projects forward,
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figure out new ways of supporting people who are impacted by social isolation
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and loneliness, in particular people dealing with illness and transition and grief and loss.
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So we primarily have been doing that through a concept of what we call community
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companioning, and we get referrals from a variety of sources,
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large health providers, funeral service operators,
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health department, and we support people who have deficient social support networks
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and who want someone who can just walk alongside them, not to fix them or pull them out of any hole,
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but to step into that hole with them for a little bit and let them find some
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common humanity in their suffering.
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And so we're currently moving into a bit of an incubator model where we're inviting
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people in the community with ideas to bring them forward.
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And then we're providing supports and assistance and helping get the projects funded and managed.
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And we've got three such programs right now in place, including one that's going
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to be involving end-of-life companioning. Can you talk us through that program?
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Is that at the stage where you can give us some examples?
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It's an extension of some of the work we've done before.
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So what we're trying to do is to get people to reclaim some of their deep,
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evolved ways of being there for one another.
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And if you look through the world, and especially within indigenous communities,
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you see the use of listening and touch and breath work to sort of co-regulate.
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What we're trying to do is we recruit people from all walks of life.
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People typically who want to be involved with someone and help bring about a
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more meaningful relationship in their life and be able to just walk alongside
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them and make sure that, again, they find some common humanity in what they're dealing with.
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So we're supporting people who are in end-of-life situations where they're terminally
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ill, some who are opting for voluntary assisted dying, especially under rather
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complicated circumstances where family members may not quite be on board.
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We're working with people who have suffered a loss recently and continue to
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support their bereavement. We're envisioning also going into some aged care facilities.
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We've tried one model where several of our companions who are volunteers support
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community members who are referred to us.
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And many of the community members, or several in the last round of our program,
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became companions, including a man who's in an aged care facility.
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So we're thinking about doing more end-of-life companioning in aged care by
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recruiting and training some people who can provide that for their fellow residents.
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That's the latest iteration.
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But it's really, I think it's got a lot of potential and could go out wider,
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but we're still kind of working out the wrinkles and trying to prove success with the concept.
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So these volunteers, they partnered with someone in the community that needs
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some support that have been identified by services to your organization.
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And when you say that there's aspects of reconnecting with age-old practices.
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So that's more of a holistic approach to their health in a social context.
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Is that the sort of thing?
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Well, I mean, I think there's a lot of suffering that we're experiencing today
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that is often made debilitating because we're forced to experience it individually
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rather than communally.
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And we don't often find meaning in those instances. Take death, for example.
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Many of us have to encounter it as a failed medical experience and then a commercial
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transaction rather than this human universal, right?
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And I've seen this with people that we've supported who've been impacted by complicated grief.
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There's a friend of mine, a 93-year-old man who was a member of my ice hockey club.
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And he was dealing with complicated grief and was under the care of a psychiatrist
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and a psychologist. And he was really having a difficult time.
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He felt like his inability to move through his grief was a sign of weakness
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or, you know, of him being disordered.
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And through connecting him with some companions, he kind of came to realize
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that this is something we all do.
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But historically, it's something we've done together, you know,
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and we understand. And I think we've lost our ability to show up for grief in
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the same way because it's been taken away from us, you know?
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And I think the medical profession has done a really good job inviting people in.
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In recent years, the funeral industry quite hasn't gotten there yet,
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but that's what we're hoping to do to allow people to participate more fully
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in their end-of-life rituals and to be involved in activities afterwards that
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allow them to have a continuing bond and allow them to move through the grieving
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process in a healthy way.
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So when you're talking, Jo, things that come to my mind, you know,
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my best friend is an emergency doctor, and she's been a guest on the podcast
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previously. She was our first guest.
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And yeah, that sort of training that they go through as doctors that death is
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a failure of treatment, but it is actually just a natural process of life.
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And then the other
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thing that comes to mind is also you know we
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were briefly talking before we started recording about design
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and architecture and and our homes were
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designed with you know the parlour in the front room which was specifically
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for being a funeral parlour when you would lay out the dead and you would take
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care of the dead you would wash after they died and and then present them and
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people would come in to the house and and you know grieve with the family So I can see that, you know,
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we have lost that immediate connection with those things.
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That's really, that's interesting. You know, you mentioned your friend who's
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an emergency room physician.
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Many people show up to emergency departments now out of loneliness,
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and they're calling ambulances, believe it or not, for the same reason.
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And funeral directors have reported in recent years, several that I've spoken
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to, they've had calls from families who they've connected with who want to talk
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about what's going on for them.
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And it's because they have no place else to go.
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I think 20% of GP visits are estimated to be used by people who just really want to have a chat.
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You know yeah i think our program like many out there just it's an example of
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catching people where they're at and finding people you know who could use just
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a little bit of compassion and common humanity and you know it's a form of surrogacy
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i really believe that we probably.
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Didn't deal with this the same way when we live in a more communal fashion and
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because you know it's been siloed.
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It's really hard for us.
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We typically don't go through the loss of a loved one that often throughout our lives.
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And it's a difficult challenge, but we don't really have,
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people who help us see that there's a path forward, you know,
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and that's what we're doing. It's funny, not funny, but quite beautiful.
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Last year, one of the members of our co-housing community, intentional community
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here, was diagnosed with terminal cancer, and he brought our community together for a circle,
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talking circle, and he said, I just want to be clear, you know,
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this isn't a living funeral.
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I know I'm a good guy. I just wanted to talk about this death thing.
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We're all going to go through it. I'm just a little heavy.
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But he wanted to make it a teachable moment and said, I thought you might have
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some questions about what I might be going through.
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Those things probably happen more
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naturally when we were living in a more interdependent, connected way.
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And so I think we need to be figuring out more creative strategies to get that information across.
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And I think that there's also been that shift in families with the ease of travel
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and working, et cetera, and there's many other reasons as well.
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But we've lost that having multiple generations in the same household living
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or living down the street. It's not a regular thing that occurs any longer.
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So that, yeah, that disconnect as well.
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But you mentioned that just your co-housing where you live.
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So, you know, the things that you're talking about, Jo, these are something
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that you live and breathe every day.
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This isn't just your job, is it? So can you tell us a little bit about the co-housing
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where you do live, if you don't mind?
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So we're in Brunswick, Victoria, and it's the first co-housing project in Australia
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that's sort of dedicated to this Danish model,
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which is essentially set up to where everyone has their own home,
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or in our case, apartment.
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And then we share spaces. So we have a communal dining room and kitchen where
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we eat together twice a week. There's a laundry facility where we see people on the seventh floor.
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There's a music room and workshop in the basement.
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There's going to be an onsen. There's a couple of guest apartments.
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There's a multi-purpose room where we show movies and people do yoga and such.
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And those spaces are really important because they allow us to gather and connect.
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And unfortunately, you know, a typical apartment building wouldn't have those things.
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But the idea is that everyone knows that they have some responsibilities to
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contribute to the community, whether that's preparing meals or cleaning dishes
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or serving on committees to figure things out.
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And we sort of naturally just have learned to be there for one another.
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We have, I'd say, probably 70% neurodiversity. We have a couple people with
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significant developmental intellectual disabilities.
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We have a number of people aging in place trying to.
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Stave off having to go into an aged care facility and a couple of young families
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and it's been really great i mean compared to where we had been living where
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i was experiencing loneliness.
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Nine years in two neighborhoods where we never had any contact with our neighbors
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and had no real ability to connect with them and i i went back to the states
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to take my son back he was having some difficulty as well i think fitting in
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and i was having conversations with old friends meals and coffees and drinks.
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And I started to feel like, you know, I was coming to life through their eyes.
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And I started to realize when you don't have people reflecting back who you
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are, you know, you start to lose your identity.
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And that's what was going on. And I told my wife, we got to do something here.
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And I had heard about this community being developed and we were able to grab the last apartment.
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And I'm so grateful that we were because it's been a real game changer in all of our lives.
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That's amazing. And I recently had Michelle Lim, the CEO of Ending Loneliness,
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and she was talking about just the fact that there is an increase in the amount
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of people who do feel lonely.
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And it's not something that is isolated to an aging population.
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It affects people at all ages feeling that disconnect and that loneliness.
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So, you know, The work that you're doing is so important there.
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And speaking of loneliness, there's an awareness that it's known,
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we all understand it as a subjective feeling that we don't have enough people
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in our lives to be healthy and happy.
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But there's a form of loneliness there.
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That's related to our conversation today, which is referred to as existential
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loneliness, which is brought on by meaninglessness.
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And so, you know, there are these life events that occur, death,
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divorce, losing one's job, being bullied at school, moving to a different city,
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all sorts of things that happen.
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And if you don't have a social support network to guide you through there,
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that those things can be really much more debilitating than they need to be.
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But when we have people that, you know, have been around us and who have probably
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been through the experience, we realize it's part of our common humanity to
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go through these things. It's not indicative of us being weak or disordered.
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It's what happens. But that's the problem.
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And so having one person show up in your life to extend some kindness,
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human decency, can bring enough meaning into those instances to,
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I think, overcome the meaninglessness that can contribute to this existential loneliness.
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And that's really what we've been trying to do with social health.
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And tell me this isn't the
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only time you've been in a position where
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you've been supporting you know working for the
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greater good you started off as a Jesuit lay
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minister back in the United States I did
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I was doing peace and social justice programming
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at the University of San Francisco I was a Jesuit volunteer
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and then I stayed around for three more years doing pastoral
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care and that kind of advocacy work and it was a great experience and in fact
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through that experience i learned about this concept of spiritual direction
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or spiritual companioning which comes out of this christian mystic tradition
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of just creating space for another person to.
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Reflect and discern whatever they want to, and if they want to,
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maybe think about a role for the divine.
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But I was actually, I had a really profound experience with that work, and I trained to do that.
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And it sort of drew me into wanting to get involved with pastoral care here
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in Australia a few years ago, which was really difficult, I discovered,
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to do without a religious affiliation.
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And I no longer identify as religious, so I was trying to do it in a more non- or trans-theistic way.
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And it turned out that was a little threatening to certain elements within Australia's
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spiritual care industrial complex.
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So we decided to kind of rebrand and be a bit more subversive and develop new
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nomenclature and really just focus on the community level rather than the institutional
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level where I was trying to work in.
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And it's the same thing. It's really just providing someone who can allow another
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human being to know that they're not alone in those instances.
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And it does miracles. I've seen it. It sounds so simple and I have a hard time
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articulating it sometimes.
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It doesn't sound like much of anything, but it can have a really profound impact on people's lives.
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And Joe, do you mind sharing with us what that profound experience was that
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you had in that early stage? Sure.
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I grew up in a family with two parents who grew up as depression babies,
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and they probably relied a little too much on my sister and me to kind of elevate
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what they perceived as a depressed social status.
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So I was very much encouraged to achieve and succeed.
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And I was able to break away from that. In fact, it was in part through some
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support with the Jesuits in my early 20s.
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But when I was about 40, I was interested in really trying to understand this
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concept of unconditional love.
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And I thought, you know, I grew up in a family where maybe it was doled out
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a little too conditionally in
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my mind. And I thought it was affecting my ability to be in relationship.
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And so I went to a psychologist for the first time in my life to say I wanted
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to learn about unconditional love.
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And this woman said, well, actually, I don't believe in the concepts.
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I don't think you're going to learn it here.
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But I reconnected with an old Jesuit spiritual director from years ago,
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and he helped me kind of reflect on some ideas, including looking at my life.
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And it was just coincidentally, I was sort of caretaking for an older gentleman.
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And it was that reflecting on that relationship in particular that made me realize
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that I was more than capable of loving deeply.
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And within a couple of weeks after having that epiphany, I met this incredible
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woman from Melbourne, Juliet, and we got married very shortly after that.
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And I wanted to figure out how I was just so impacted by that experience.
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I wanted to learn how to kind of do that for others. So I did a training in,
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at the time there were only two places in the U.S.
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That had training programs for spiritual directors or companions.
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And I went through that and Juliet and I were, I mean, most like us,
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most of our friends didn't identify as religious. And I didn't know how I would
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do that work outside a ministerial context.
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So we decided to buy some land out in the middle of the Mojave Desert.
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And we thought that we would open up an eco-retreat where people could,
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you know, find solace in that fierce landscape. And I would work doing spiritual
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direction and Juliet was going to run a rustic spa.
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And through that experience, we had this intense encounter with nature.
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And we started that there were these early Christian monastics who used to go
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out to the desert to befriend death. And we're starting to think about that
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idea and think about programming for the retreat and thought about end-of-life rituals.
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Could we let people have a ceremony, maybe scatter ashes?
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And they thought, wow, could people be buried here? And could the proceeds perhaps
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be invested to do ecological restoration or landscape-level conservation?
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Because we lived on the edge of thousands of empty acres, and most of them were privately held.
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And I learned that there was a man who had been thinking along the same lines, Dr.
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Billy Campbell, and had started the first natural burial ground in the States.
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And so out of that conversation came this vision. And to really put it in motion,
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we realized we needed to have verifiable standards.
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We needed to have a way of engaging this somewhat threatened industry with environmental partners.
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And we needed to create a kind of a social environmental consumer movement.
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And that's how the Green Burial Council came about.
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And can you talk me through the principles that you developed around that?
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First of all, we knew that we had a very entrenched, threatened industry that
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we wanted to be involved with the cause.
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So rather than using green burial as a cudgel, you know, to beat up on the funeral
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industry, we tried to find leaders within the field who would embrace the idea.
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And it was enlightened self-interest to do it because the funeral industry in
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the U.S., unlike here...
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Is extremely regulated, and it's somewhat protectionist.
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So they could have put the idea out of, you know, out of business,
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we could have been legislated out of existence. So we really had to be careful.
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But I also thought, you know, I didn't want to use the concept to really just
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poke holes in what was wrong with funeral service. There's a lot.
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But we used it as a way to kind of incentivize funeral directors,
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for example, to let people know that they could have funerals that didn't have
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to embalm embalming or didn't have to involve a casket.
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People could participate more fully in their end-of-life rituals.
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And cemeteries didn't have to require in the U.S.
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I think U.S. and Canada really are the only countries for the most part that
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require concrete boxes called vaults.
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They're very rarely used in Australia, but most cemeteries were unwilling until
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that time to forego the use of vaults.
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That was a big deal. And we got product manufacturers to start to think about
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worker safety and toxic chemicals often will be biodegradable in the ground,
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but they're doing awful things to workers.
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So we created an incentive to use adhesives and stains that were non-toxic and
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weren't going to cause any health issues for workers in those plants.
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And we basically then
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went out with this story to the public we had
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our standards in place and we had buy-in from the
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industry and had intrigue on the part of
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land trusts and conservation entities and things really unfolded kind of naturally
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and green burial grounds started to pop up new manufacturers came into the four
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funeral homes became very open to having eco-friendly funeral service and it allowed us.
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To manage some of the greenwashing too that was
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inevitable you know in the u.s unlike
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australia you know i think australians think
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if there's a social problem the government should handle it
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and that's not the case in the u.s because we have such weak levels of government
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there's a need to involve you know community organizations and non-profit the
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non-profits are the sector is much more robust compared to Australia and allows
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for more community organizing.
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But we basically put together stopgap governance that didn't exist and probably
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never would have come about in state legislatures.
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And so I'm really proud. In fact, I got a note the other day,
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the council is asking for input into revising their standards and they're trying to figure that out.
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And they're still, you know, still tweaking, but the work that we did has served
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as a foundation for that movement to continue to unfold.
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It wouldn't make as much sense in Australia, given the regulatory landscape,
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but it really did some great things in the States.
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highlight & EP:
And what period are we talking about, that this sort of first happened?
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So we moved, I think, to the desert in 2002 and got involved with the idea,
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2003, I was starting to get involved with this idea and thinking I could be
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involved with a company that might bring this about and realize that was tricky.
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highlight & EP:
So the council was formed in 2005, officially.
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highlight & EP:
And compared to Australia, you know, really embalming was born in America during the Civil War.
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highlight & EP:
So it is really embedded in the process over there, isn't it?
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It is. It's hard for Australians to understand.
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I mean, Americans just assumed for
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many years that if you wanted to have a funeral, you had to embalm a body.
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highlight & EP:
It's not legally required, but the industry had been really good about making
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people feel that, and they needed to have a casket.
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highlight & EP:
A lot of people don't really know that the funeral industry was created out of whole cloth.
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As you mentioned, after the Civil War, some people discovered that there was
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a market for disinterring the bodies of Union Army officers who could afford to pay for the service.
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highlight & EP:
And they would embalm the body because prior to that, you know,
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soldiers were left to lie in the battlefield and those battlefields became cemeteries.
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highlight & EP:
But with the Abraham Lincoln's funeral in particular, you know,
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embalming and cascading became, you know, in the public conscience.
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highlight & EP:
And really the funeral industry, the modern mortician was created.
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highlight & EP:
The National Funeral Directors Association was created when the casket and chemical
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companies came together.
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It's interesting to me at the same time this was going on, you know,
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doctors were glorified barbers at the time.
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They kind of got their act together and the funeral industry,
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the morticians never got the psychosocial training to allow them to do more
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than be frontline marketers for the casket and chemical companies.
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highlight & EP:
And there was a movement to do that in the US up until the 1930s,
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but the chemical casket companies really prevented that from happening.
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highlight & EP:
So we tried to
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come in you know it was really interesting
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you talk about misinformation and disinformation what
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we had to work against were really it was generations of misinformation to funeral
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highlight & EP:
directors by their supply companies that there were health concerns and that
370
00:26:58,581 --> 00:27:03,661
highlight & EP:
they shouldn't do funerals unless that body was properly embalmed.
371
00:27:03,801 --> 00:27:08,981
highlight & EP:
And by the way, the mortuary, first mortuary schools in Seville today are still
372
00:27:08,981 --> 00:27:11,961
highlight & EP:
owned by chemical companies, you know?
373
00:27:12,688 --> 00:27:16,048
highlight & EP:
So that was the centerpiece of mortuary education.
374
00:27:16,228 --> 00:27:19,548
highlight & EP:
And it took a lot to get funeral directors to realize, you know,
375
00:27:19,728 --> 00:27:21,688
highlight & EP:
there's not going to be any health risks.
376
00:27:21,848 --> 00:27:25,448
highlight & EP:
In fact, you may have more health risks being associated with the embalming
377
00:27:25,448 --> 00:27:30,548
highlight & EP:
chemicals, which are actually, you know, are more problematic when they're in
378
00:27:30,548 --> 00:27:33,528
highlight & EP:
vaporous form than they are when they're in the ground.
379
00:27:33,528 --> 00:27:36,768
highlight & EP:
But it was really hard to get
380
00:27:36,768 --> 00:27:39,768
highlight & EP:
funeral directors in particular to realize that
381
00:27:39,768 --> 00:27:42,828
highlight & EP:
there's a new way of looking at how they did their service
382
00:27:42,828 --> 00:27:46,008
highlight & EP:
and that what we were saying was you
383
00:27:46,008 --> 00:27:50,508
highlight & EP:
know conflicting with what they had been told for many years that was probably
384
00:27:50,508 --> 00:27:56,328
highlight & EP:
the most challenging part of the work getting them to think differently and
385
00:27:56,328 --> 00:28:03,028
highlight & EP:
what really in the end what really made the big difference was the rising cremation rates.
386
00:28:03,448 --> 00:28:08,488
highlight & EP:
Because Americans saw the only way around funeral service that they increasingly
387
00:28:08,488 --> 00:28:10,248
highlight & EP:
didn't want, and this started to
388
00:28:10,248 --> 00:28:14,528
highlight & EP:
take place in the 60s, was to opt out for cremation and direct cremation.
389
00:28:15,348 --> 00:28:18,688
highlight & EP:
Cremation without a funeral. And so I think a lot of funeral directors thought,
390
00:28:18,848 --> 00:28:22,928
highlight & EP:
oh, this green burial idea might be something that we can be involved with.
391
00:28:23,048 --> 00:28:28,028
highlight & EP:
And of course, we wanted them to see that, but with new rules and a more openness.
392
00:28:28,248 --> 00:28:32,888
highlight & EP:
So we were very successful in getting our certified providers,
393
00:28:33,088 --> 00:28:40,608
highlight & EP:
for example, to put in their price list that a funeral could take place without embalming.
394
00:28:41,028 --> 00:28:44,788
highlight & EP:
Consumer advocates were trying to do that for years unsuccessfully.
395
00:28:44,968 --> 00:28:47,688
highlight & EP:
And we made great strides on that front.
396
00:28:48,108 --> 00:28:52,688
highlight & EP:
Yeah, that's amazing. And tell me, what made you leave the desert?
397
00:28:53,028 --> 00:28:58,448
highlight & EP:
You know, the desert? Yeah, what made you leave and come to Australia?
398
00:28:58,668 --> 00:29:02,728
highlight & EP:
Obviously, Juliet was here originally. She's from here.
399
00:29:03,108 --> 00:29:08,008
highlight & EP:
You know, a couple things. My parents had both passed away. Juliet's father
400
00:29:08,008 --> 00:29:10,508
highlight & EP:
had dementia, didn't have a long time to live.
401
00:29:10,868 --> 00:29:14,528
highlight & EP:
We had a model project in Santa Fe teed up.
402
00:29:15,268 --> 00:29:21,108
highlight & EP:
We'd been working on it for seven years where half of the proceeds from the
403
00:29:21,108 --> 00:29:27,968
highlight & EP:
interment, right, The cemetery sale would go into a pot of money to take down land on a large ranch.
404
00:29:28,208 --> 00:29:33,068
highlight & EP:
And we had a deal in place. And the partner, the conservation and the developer,
405
00:29:33,368 --> 00:29:34,888
highlight & EP:
couldn't make good on their word.
406
00:29:35,308 --> 00:29:38,688
highlight & EP:
Mainly, I think, when the real estate market turned. And we weren't going to
407
00:29:38,688 --> 00:29:40,328
highlight & EP:
be able to bring that about.
408
00:29:40,508 --> 00:29:44,068
highlight & EP:
We had a situation take place where someone had been promised the burial.
409
00:29:44,228 --> 00:29:48,148
highlight & EP:
And there was a cancellation the day before the funeral, which was one of the
410
00:29:48,148 --> 00:29:51,848
highlight & EP:
most awful experiences I'd ever been involved with. And we just realized,
411
00:29:52,028 --> 00:29:53,688
highlight & EP:
I think our work here is done.
412
00:29:54,268 --> 00:29:58,968
highlight & EP:
I started to probably be experiencing a bit of burnout.
413
00:29:59,228 --> 00:30:04,468
highlight & EP:
The funeral industry itself is really fragmented, but there were other people
414
00:30:04,468 --> 00:30:06,068
highlight & EP:
who I think resented the.
415
00:30:06,789 --> 00:30:11,769
highlight & EP:
The leadership position that the council had and felt their mantle had been usurped.
416
00:30:12,029 --> 00:30:17,289
highlight & EP:
That was challenging to deal with. And also, even though we were set up as a
417
00:30:17,289 --> 00:30:22,369
highlight & EP:
non-profit, many of the providers were for-profit operators.
418
00:30:22,369 --> 00:30:28,589
highlight & EP:
And so it took a lot of work to make sure that the trust provider,
419
00:30:28,969 --> 00:30:33,669
highlight & EP:
the council stayed strong and didn't get co-opted as a trade association.
420
00:30:33,989 --> 00:30:37,549
highlight & EP:
So there was internal tension that was very much
421
00:30:37,549 --> 00:30:40,829
highlight & EP:
always present and it got a little overwhelming I
422
00:30:40,829 --> 00:30:43,629
highlight & EP:
think toward the end of my work so I did that for
423
00:30:43,629 --> 00:30:49,489
highlight & EP:
2005 and we moved here in 2012 and quite frankly I was looking to kind of get
424
00:30:49,489 --> 00:30:54,289
highlight & EP:
out of the field I keep getting dragged back into it but I thought it was time
425
00:30:54,289 --> 00:30:59,769
highlight & EP:
to explore doing something else and my son at the time was eight and we had
426
00:30:59,769 --> 00:31:02,409
highlight & EP:
our health and it just seemed like the time to make the move.
427
00:31:02,809 --> 00:31:08,429
highlight & EP:
Yeah, that totally makes sense. And so you came to Australia and then what?
428
00:31:08,689 --> 00:31:14,789
highlight & EP:
Well, I didn't realize it at the time, but what was going on for me was I had
429
00:31:14,789 --> 00:31:20,129
highlight & EP:
this inability to access social capital that I had always had in the States.
430
00:31:20,329 --> 00:31:25,069
highlight & EP:
So I think this is a function of how big cities in the US work.
431
00:31:25,329 --> 00:31:29,029
highlight & EP:
If you move to a place like New York, San Francisco, LA, like I did.
432
00:31:29,489 --> 00:31:30,929
highlight & EP:
People move from all over the world.
433
00:31:31,089 --> 00:31:34,969
highlight & EP:
And so they're really good about opening up their professional and social networks.
434
00:31:35,389 --> 00:31:40,049
highlight & EP:
It's pretty easy to get things done. When you move to a city like Melbourne,
435
00:31:40,349 --> 00:31:45,369
highlight & EP:
I discovered where many people who live here have lived here for a long time.
436
00:31:45,669 --> 00:31:49,909
highlight & EP:
There's less interest, I think, on the part of those folks to open up their networks.
437
00:31:50,029 --> 00:31:54,509
highlight & EP:
So I was having a hard time accessing that social capital, as it's called,
438
00:31:54,709 --> 00:31:58,089
highlight & EP:
which is where we find meaningful relationships.
439
00:31:58,369 --> 00:32:01,469
highlight & EP:
It's where we find work. We hear about employment opportunities.
440
00:32:01,689 --> 00:32:05,609
highlight & EP:
And for the first time in my life, really, I was having a difficult time meeting
441
00:32:05,609 --> 00:32:08,029
highlight & EP:
good friends and finding employment.
442
00:32:08,849 --> 00:32:13,389
highlight & EP:
And after about five years, I thought I did a little bit of consultancy work
443
00:32:13,389 --> 00:32:19,949
highlight & EP:
and I thought about going back into pastoral care and discovered it was rather hard to do without,
444
00:32:20,229 --> 00:32:25,129
highlight & EP:
again, having sort of either theological qualifications or faith community endorsement.
445
00:32:25,509 --> 00:32:31,209
highlight & EP:
And so I had an idea to bring forward a model that the UK humanists had developed
446
00:32:31,209 --> 00:32:36,349
highlight & EP:
to support mostly in hospitals, people who didn't identify as religious,
447
00:32:36,729 --> 00:32:41,509
highlight & EP:
with the same sort of subclinical, social, emotional, existential care, right?
448
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:47,020
highlight & EP:
And as I said, that was threatening to some entities here. And I realized that
449
00:32:47,020 --> 00:32:49,100
highlight & EP:
was not my Everest to fight.
450
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:54,560
highlight & EP:
And I thought I could just take on that challenge directly, or we could focus on doing the work.
451
00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:57,380
highlight & EP:
And I felt really called to do the work.
452
00:32:57,580 --> 00:33:00,500
highlight & EP:
And there was this tremendous opportunity at the community level,
453
00:33:00,660 --> 00:33:05,200
highlight & EP:
because many healthcare professionals were starting to think about bringing
454
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,420
highlight & EP:
forward a concept that had taken off in the UK called social prescribing,
455
00:33:09,420 --> 00:33:15,500
highlight & EP:
where mostly GPs would refer patients to the community for support for non-medical
456
00:33:15,500 --> 00:33:17,360
highlight & EP:
issues like social isolation and loneliness.
457
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:23,460
highlight & EP:
And I realized, wow, you really need to know who is on the front line and people
458
00:33:23,460 --> 00:33:28,580
highlight & EP:
need to be vetted and upskilled and supported properly to do that work,
459
00:33:28,700 --> 00:33:31,520
highlight & EP:
especially if they're going to get referrals from healthcare providers.
460
00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:37,880
highlight & EP:
So we put together Social Health Australia in a similar way to the council to
461
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:44,100
highlight & EP:
engage this other sector and to be a trust provider of sorts to show that, you know,
462
00:33:44,220 --> 00:33:48,200
highlight & EP:
we could recruit volunteers from all walks of life who are capable of doing
463
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,500
highlight & EP:
this work and doing it safely.
464
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,640
highlight & EP:
But we didn't need another credentialing framework. We didn't need another cert
465
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,360
highlight & EP:
for we wanted this to be the work of the people.
466
00:33:57,580 --> 00:34:01,960
highlight & EP:
You know, we've been very adamant about that. And our patriot Hugh McKay has
467
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,620
highlight & EP:
helped us really stick to that.
468
00:34:04,900 --> 00:34:09,020
highlight & EP:
You know, especially I think in Australia, there's this tendency to identify
469
00:34:09,020 --> 00:34:13,880
highlight & EP:
a problem and then there's a portfolio administer and there's sort of a top down approach.
470
00:34:14,060 --> 00:34:17,940
highlight & EP:
But if we're going to get out of this loneliness epidemic and mental health crisis,
471
00:34:18,180 --> 00:34:22,700
highlight & EP:
we need a bottom up social movement, we need more people doing this work and
472
00:34:22,700 --> 00:34:27,700
highlight & EP:
taking it on and not doing it because we think it's another practitioner class
473
00:34:27,700 --> 00:34:29,180
highlight & EP:
that needs to come to the fore.
474
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,400
highlight & EP:
You know, we just think this is what we evolved to do for one another.
475
00:34:32,580 --> 00:34:37,920
highlight & EP:
And we've been outsourcing it to clinical psychs and religious professionals and others. And really.
476
00:34:38,820 --> 00:34:44,380
highlight & EP:
It's about finding a way to reclaim those instincts and learn again how to show
477
00:34:44,380 --> 00:34:47,480
highlight & EP:
up during moments of great difficulty.
478
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:55,180
highlight & EP:
What I see is it's quite challenging for organizations that try and do the work
479
00:34:55,180 --> 00:35:00,240
highlight & EP:
and also do the advocacy and the fundraising at the same time.
480
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,840
highlight & EP:
Is that a challenge that you've come across? I always say I think we have an
481
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:09,700
highlight & EP:
excellent service model and a lousy business model because there's a tremendous
482
00:35:09,700 --> 00:35:15,460
highlight & EP:
disadvantage that smaller charities like ours were a volunteer-led charity.
483
00:35:16,060 --> 00:35:20,820
highlight & EP:
So that allows us to be really nimble and we don't get into a situation where
484
00:35:20,820 --> 00:35:25,180
highlight & EP:
some organizations, because they have a lot of overhead, they're paying salaries,
485
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:30,180
highlight & EP:
they start thinking about what they need to do to keep the doors open and that becomes paramount.
486
00:35:30,180 --> 00:35:35,760
highlight & EP:
Whereas with our work, we sort of build up our capacity on the fly.
487
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,180
highlight & EP:
So when we apply for a grant from the Lord Mayor's Charitable Foundation,
488
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:46,260
highlight & EP:
we build in project management and training and support and supervision fees into that.
489
00:35:46,260 --> 00:35:50,500
highlight & EP:
But funders particularly philanthropics don't
490
00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:53,580
highlight & EP:
like giving large grants to small organizations that
491
00:35:53,580 --> 00:35:56,900
highlight & EP:
don't have capacity professional capacity
492
00:35:56,900 --> 00:35:59,800
highlight & EP:
in place i think there's a bias against thinking
493
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,920
highlight & EP:
that because people are working in a pro bono or volunteer basis they may not
494
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:09,540
highlight & EP:
have the skills or commitment to do the work so it is really challenging but
495
00:36:09,540 --> 00:36:13,820
highlight & EP:
we're trying to work with other community-based organizations that are in the
496
00:36:13,820 --> 00:36:18,400
highlight & EP:
same boat and share and leverage resources, you know,
497
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:23,880
highlight & EP:
so that we don't all have to be burdened by the issues around governance and fundraising.
498
00:36:24,780 --> 00:36:28,180
highlight & EP:
There's a lot that goes on. I remember a couple of years ago,
499
00:36:28,340 --> 00:36:33,980
highlight & EP:
the Australian government put out a paper talking about the problem of how many
500
00:36:33,980 --> 00:36:38,040
highlight & EP:
thousands of small charities there are in Australia, you know, from their standpoint,
501
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,960
highlight & EP:
you know, an oversight through that lens, It's really troubling,
502
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:42,180
highlight & EP:
but I'm thinking, God, it's.
503
00:36:43,111 --> 00:36:48,131
highlight & EP:
Wouldn't it be great if more people wanted to start little entities to do good in the world, right?
504
00:36:48,511 --> 00:36:54,711
highlight & EP:
But we need to not burden people as much and we need to figure out ways of making
505
00:36:54,711 --> 00:36:56,831
highlight & EP:
this work easier to be done.
506
00:36:57,191 --> 00:37:02,631
highlight & EP:
So it is really difficult to exist as a startup, small charity in Australia.
507
00:37:02,631 --> 00:37:07,971
highlight & EP:
But I'm really glad that we've been able to figure out a way to keep the lights on.
508
00:37:08,091 --> 00:37:12,731
highlight & EP:
So we're doing that right now. Our latest thinking is that we're becoming sort
509
00:37:12,731 --> 00:37:17,471
highlight & EP:
of a community-based incubator, and we've had three projects come to us lately
510
00:37:17,471 --> 00:37:18,811
highlight & EP:
where people had an idea.
511
00:37:19,251 --> 00:37:22,371
highlight & EP:
They didn't want to go through what would be required.
512
00:37:22,591 --> 00:37:26,191
highlight & EP:
Well, getting DGR status, for example, deductible gift recipient status,
513
00:37:26,191 --> 00:37:29,371
highlight & EP:
can take years to get. There's no guarantee you're going to get it.
514
00:37:29,791 --> 00:37:33,731
highlight & EP:
So for an entity that has that and public benevolent institution status,
515
00:37:34,031 --> 00:37:39,111
highlight & EP:
we can bring in entities and let people try ideas. It's the other reason,
516
00:37:39,311 --> 00:37:42,311
highlight & EP:
you know, there's a big problem, I think, in this social sector.
517
00:37:42,551 --> 00:37:47,271
highlight & EP:
There's not a lot of innovation because it's hard to play around in the sandbox.
518
00:37:47,591 --> 00:37:52,231
highlight & EP:
You know, you need to be able to make some mistakes and run some experiments.
519
00:37:52,671 --> 00:37:56,511
highlight & EP:
And the way things are set up right now, that really can't happen.
520
00:37:56,671 --> 00:38:02,291
highlight & EP:
So we're hoping to get projects off the ground and provide supports and provide,
521
00:38:02,511 --> 00:38:06,371
highlight & EP:
you know, serve as sort of a fiscal intermediary sponsor so people can get grants.
522
00:38:06,371 --> 00:38:11,831
highlight & EP:
And then you know it also connect with other people in the field and experience
523
00:38:11,831 --> 00:38:16,551
highlight & EP:
some collegiality because the work's difficult enough but it's much more difficult
524
00:38:16,551 --> 00:38:20,951
highlight & EP:
when you feel like you're doing it you know alone so that's going to be a big
525
00:38:20,951 --> 00:38:24,471
highlight & EP:
push for us trying to weave with other enemies working in this space.
526
00:38:25,296 --> 00:38:30,296
highlight & EP:
Yeah, yeah. And especially when it comes to just the resources and the,
527
00:38:30,416 --> 00:38:34,696
highlight & EP:
you know, those sorts of things is just really hard, as you were saying,
528
00:38:34,956 --> 00:38:36,176
highlight & EP:
you know, on an ongoing basis.
529
00:38:36,576 --> 00:38:41,676
highlight & EP:
Yeah. So tell me some of the other challenges that you've sort of faced in relation
530
00:38:41,676 --> 00:38:45,836
highlight & EP:
to advocating for socially responsible end of life.
531
00:38:46,056 --> 00:38:50,356
highlight & EP:
What are some of the hurdles that you've had to try and straddle there,
532
00:38:50,436 --> 00:38:55,656
highlight & EP:
Joe? Well, I discovered that in Australia, I find Australians to be very compliant.
533
00:38:55,876 --> 00:38:59,396
highlight & EP:
And I think many I've been told by Zenith Farago many years ago,
534
00:38:59,516 --> 00:39:02,936
highlight & EP:
she said Australians tend to think that they're all in some sort of funeral
535
00:39:02,936 --> 00:39:07,136
highlight & EP:
precinct that they have to, you know, and if there's a Tobin Brothers nearby,
536
00:39:07,396 --> 00:39:08,316
highlight & EP:
that's where they have to go.
537
00:39:08,316 --> 00:39:13,696
highlight & EP:
I think that one of the things that I found challenging, but I really enjoy
538
00:39:13,696 --> 00:39:16,196
highlight & EP:
working in this area, it's getting
539
00:39:16,196 --> 00:39:19,576
highlight & EP:
people to understand that they have all sorts of rights and options.
540
00:39:19,876 --> 00:39:23,336
highlight & EP:
And I always say, I think every good funeral director should say,
541
00:39:23,376 --> 00:39:26,076
highlight & EP:
what would you like to do and what would you like to have us do?
542
00:39:26,196 --> 00:39:27,696
highlight & EP:
And here are your options.
543
00:39:27,896 --> 00:39:31,656
highlight & EP:
And when you really do that, you encourage, you empower people,
544
00:39:31,836 --> 00:39:36,316
highlight & EP:
you allow them to experience some agency that I think is really healthy for
545
00:39:36,316 --> 00:39:37,716
highlight & EP:
the grieving process. us.
546
00:39:37,896 --> 00:39:42,776
highlight & EP:
When you take the body away and force people to play catch up and make them
547
00:39:42,776 --> 00:39:46,616
highlight & EP:
feel disempowered, I think grief is much more painful.
548
00:39:47,036 --> 00:39:53,016
highlight & EP:
So I think one of the challenges has been, and this is just mostly in our personal life,
549
00:39:53,196 --> 00:39:58,636
highlight & EP:
getting people to open up to possibilities and considering dressing a body or
550
00:39:58,636 --> 00:40:03,376
highlight & EP:
being more involved with the service than they had been, or knowing that There's
551
00:40:03,376 --> 00:40:05,676
highlight & EP:
a number of ways that they can, you know.
552
00:40:06,416 --> 00:40:10,196
highlight & EP:
Honor a loved one and be involved that they might not have considered.
553
00:40:10,416 --> 00:40:13,516
highlight & EP:
The industry operates the same way.
554
00:40:13,616 --> 00:40:19,156
highlight & EP:
My feeling is there's a lack of collegiality because at the end of the day,
555
00:40:19,476 --> 00:40:22,096
highlight & EP:
funeral service operators are competing with one another.
556
00:40:22,356 --> 00:40:26,196
highlight & EP:
So they've had difficulty coming together for a bigger purpose.
557
00:40:26,196 --> 00:40:30,476
highlight & EP:
But I think, and I haven't really been all that involved with this other than
558
00:40:30,476 --> 00:40:33,276
highlight & EP:
with some of the bereavement companioning work that we've done,
559
00:40:33,416 --> 00:40:38,636
highlight & EP:
but I think that would be also quite challenging as it was in the States.
560
00:40:38,636 --> 00:40:42,016
highlight & EP:
And I don't know if that'll change. I think the other issue,
561
00:40:42,196 --> 00:40:47,496
highlight & EP:
quite frankly, that has been really difficult to deal with is that cemeteries
562
00:40:47,496 --> 00:40:51,916
highlight & EP:
in most states cannot be privately owned, which is not such a bad thing.
563
00:40:52,056 --> 00:40:57,896
highlight & EP:
But in a place like Victoria, you have to have a cemetery trust that's the owner and operator of record.
564
00:40:58,496 --> 00:41:02,456
highlight & EP:
And they're kind of constrained. You know, it's difficult for them.
565
00:41:02,676 --> 00:41:05,996
highlight & EP:
They have to cater to the needs of all the communities. So when you go to a
566
00:41:05,996 --> 00:41:07,636
highlight & EP:
typical cemetery trust,
567
00:41:07,836 --> 00:41:12,036
highlight & EP:
a large cemetery trust, you see a section that's catering for the Greek Orthodox
568
00:41:12,036 --> 00:41:16,136
highlight & EP:
community and over here Chinese Buddhists and maybe there's a little section
569
00:41:16,136 --> 00:41:20,316
highlight & EP:
for eco-conscious folks and you get those little siloed areas.
570
00:41:21,397 --> 00:41:25,237
highlight & EP:
It's one of the reasons there's not a standalone conservation burial ground,
571
00:41:25,337 --> 00:41:27,097
highlight & EP:
for example, that we see in the States.
572
00:41:27,097 --> 00:41:31,557
highlight & EP:
And I hope that's going to change, but it's a tricky proposition because of
573
00:41:31,557 --> 00:41:36,477
highlight & EP:
the regulatory landscape. But hopefully, you know, we'll be seeing some change in that area.
574
00:41:36,737 --> 00:41:40,917
highlight & EP:
And when you say standalone conservation burial ground, what does that mean?
575
00:41:41,477 --> 00:41:46,217
highlight & EP:
Yeah, so conservation burial is a term I coined years ago, and we developed
576
00:41:46,217 --> 00:41:51,637
highlight & EP:
standards for this in the States. And it meant in the US, there's something
577
00:41:51,637 --> 00:41:56,137
highlight & EP:
called a conservation easement, similar to a conservation covenant in Australia.
578
00:41:56,197 --> 00:41:58,357
highlight & EP:
And there's actually tax benefits
579
00:41:58,357 --> 00:42:03,537
highlight & EP:
that accrue to a person who has land who extinguishes development rights.
580
00:42:03,537 --> 00:42:07,877
highlight & EP:
So if you have land, 40 acres, and you decide, you tell the government you're
581
00:42:07,877 --> 00:42:11,797
highlight & EP:
not going to do any development on that land and you're going to keep it as
582
00:42:11,797 --> 00:42:17,897
highlight & EP:
protected habitat, the government will allow you to deduct that devaluation over a number of years.
583
00:42:18,377 --> 00:42:22,817
highlight & EP:
It's been a really effective conservation tool. And it requires that a land
584
00:42:22,817 --> 00:42:24,917
highlight & EP:
trust do annual monitoring and
585
00:42:24,917 --> 00:42:29,757
highlight & EP:
reporting to make sure that whatever your promise has been made is upheld.
586
00:42:29,757 --> 00:42:37,017
highlight & EP:
So we decided, since that was already in place, to use that vehicle to oversee
587
00:42:37,017 --> 00:42:41,397
highlight & EP:
conservation burial grounds that would agree to, for example.
588
00:42:41,957 --> 00:42:47,237
highlight & EP:
Never allow for burial on any part of the land where it might degrade the local
589
00:42:47,237 --> 00:42:54,037
highlight & EP:
ecosystem and where possible use burial in areas that might facilitate ecological restoration.
590
00:42:54,037 --> 00:42:58,857
highlight & EP:
So it might impact the zones where land would be buried or bodies would be buried.
591
00:42:58,997 --> 00:43:02,777
highlight & EP:
It might impact what kind of trees could be planted.
592
00:43:03,037 --> 00:43:09,637
highlight & EP:
It would basically be a guide roadmap for how the stewardship of that natural area would go.
593
00:43:09,797 --> 00:43:14,777
highlight & EP:
And it has allowed for land trusts to then get involved with cemetery operators
594
00:43:14,777 --> 00:43:20,017
highlight & EP:
to come together and to basically create these little nature preserves that
595
00:43:20,017 --> 00:43:23,317
highlight & EP:
have bodies, usually with very discrete markers.
596
00:43:23,317 --> 00:43:26,117
highlight & EP:
But at the end of the day when they're
597
00:43:26,117 --> 00:43:29,097
highlight & EP:
all filled up you're going to have a natural area that's
598
00:43:29,097 --> 00:43:32,377
highlight & EP:
protected in perpetuity and a fund you
599
00:43:32,377 --> 00:43:35,137
highlight & EP:
know through the funding of this conservation easement that can
600
00:43:35,137 --> 00:43:38,717
highlight & EP:
do ongoing monitoring and reporting forever so
601
00:43:38,717 --> 00:43:41,937
highlight & EP:
that's a really neat idea that really hasn't
602
00:43:41,937 --> 00:43:46,037
highlight & EP:
taken hold here i think there's a natural burial ground i'm told in new south
603
00:43:46,037 --> 00:43:51,017
highlight & EP:
wales it's about to open but it's tricky i've always felt like the opportunity
604
00:43:51,017 --> 00:43:56,717
highlight & EP:
lied where someone that has the land would like a conservation entity would
605
00:43:56,717 --> 00:43:59,497
highlight & EP:
be interested in allowing for internment rights,
606
00:43:59,817 --> 00:44:02,157
highlight & EP:
limited internment rights and exchange.
607
00:44:02,577 --> 00:44:07,517
highlight & EP:
They got money to do, you know, long-term stewardship. That was the concept
608
00:44:07,517 --> 00:44:12,017
highlight & EP:
that we're building on in the States. But as I said, it hasn't really taken
609
00:44:12,017 --> 00:44:17,177
highlight & EP:
off as of yet in Australia, but I I'm sure there will be a standalone facility.
610
00:44:17,974 --> 00:44:22,134
highlight & EP:
That will eventually do that. Many is what I would predict, but we're just not there yet.
611
00:44:22,334 --> 00:44:23,674
highlight & EP:
It's interesting because when
612
00:44:23,674 --> 00:44:28,454
highlight & EP:
I was in the UK last year, it was something that they do very, very well.
613
00:44:28,634 --> 00:44:36,914
highlight & EP:
And I saw an organic farm that was actually using a natural burial ground as
614
00:44:36,914 --> 00:44:43,194
highlight & EP:
a way in which to revegetate between two natural woodlands that were remnant
615
00:44:43,194 --> 00:44:44,934
highlight & EP:
woodlands that were there and I just thought.
616
00:44:45,394 --> 00:44:49,214
highlight & EP:
Wow, you know, my background's in conservation and land management and I'm just
617
00:44:49,214 --> 00:44:51,694
highlight & EP:
like, I love this, you know, this is fantastic.
618
00:44:52,074 --> 00:44:57,174
highlight & EP:
You know, if it was up to me, I think, you know, bio corridors and natural burial
619
00:44:57,174 --> 00:45:03,114
highlight & EP:
grounds should naturally go just, you know, together with the beehive in amongst it, you know.
620
00:45:03,334 --> 00:45:06,574
highlight & EP:
Yeah, you know, I think we should see more of it. But yeah, they seem to do
621
00:45:06,574 --> 00:45:11,234
highlight & EP:
it very well over there and I am surprised that it hasn't taken off here because
622
00:45:11,234 --> 00:45:14,014
highlight & EP:
it's just such a great concept.
623
00:45:14,394 --> 00:45:18,934
highlight & EP:
Yeah, I think if private ownership was allowed, that certainly,
624
00:45:19,234 --> 00:45:25,154
highlight & EP:
and I think that is the case in New South Wales, that would certainly make it a bit easier.
625
00:45:25,374 --> 00:45:30,854
highlight & EP:
But there's other issues and complications because you have to be able to finance these facilities.
626
00:45:31,154 --> 00:45:35,174
highlight & EP:
And what is the market for eco-friendly internment?
627
00:45:35,314 --> 00:45:38,494
highlight & EP:
It's a relatively new concept, so it's difficult
628
00:45:38,494 --> 00:45:41,354
highlight & EP:
for people to finance that's been the case in
629
00:45:41,354 --> 00:45:44,114
highlight & EP:
the states and it's always been the case for cemeteries no
630
00:45:44,114 --> 00:45:47,194
highlight & EP:
one's able to go and get a bank loan on a cemetery because
631
00:45:47,194 --> 00:45:51,574
highlight & EP:
you can't foreclose on a cemetery and make it a car dealership so banks have
632
00:45:51,574 --> 00:45:57,094
highlight & EP:
always stayed away from those projects as lenders so people have to find some
633
00:45:57,094 --> 00:46:02,214
highlight & EP:
creative funding source i mean to me the real opportunity is to find you know
634
00:46:02,214 --> 00:46:06,274
highlight & EP:
and i had conversations early on with bush heritage and entities like that,
635
00:46:06,414 --> 00:46:08,774
highlight & EP:
some entity like that that could say, all right,
636
00:46:08,994 --> 00:46:15,054
highlight & EP:
we've got probably members and donors who would really like this idea. Let's test it out.
637
00:46:15,294 --> 00:46:22,794
highlight & EP:
They have to find an operator that has a compatible ethic and know that they're in it long term.
638
00:46:22,934 --> 00:46:26,394
highlight & EP:
That's the other thing. When you start a cemetery, it's not like you can do
639
00:46:26,394 --> 00:46:28,354
highlight & EP:
it for a few years and get out if you want.
640
00:46:28,474 --> 00:46:32,954
highlight & EP:
You have to make a lifelong commitment to that. And that scares off a lot of
641
00:46:32,954 --> 00:46:35,054
highlight & EP:
people, especially conservation groups.
642
00:46:35,274 --> 00:46:39,794
highlight & EP:
Yeah, it's very challenging, isn't it? And especially given the fact that.
643
00:46:40,545 --> 00:46:43,345
highlight & EP:
It's something that we all experience at the end of the day,
644
00:46:43,565 --> 00:46:47,925
highlight & EP:
you know, and I'm just surprised that, I don't know, we just haven't worked
645
00:46:47,925 --> 00:46:52,885
highlight & EP:
out better systems or it really does still boggle my mind a little bit, Joe.
646
00:46:52,885 --> 00:46:58,025
highlight & EP:
Yeah, it's, you know, when I first got involved with the idea,
647
00:46:58,265 --> 00:47:02,025
highlight & EP:
I got really excited about it as a restoration and conservation tool.
648
00:47:02,285 --> 00:47:06,365
highlight & EP:
And quite frankly, there's some of that going on on a small scale.
649
00:47:06,765 --> 00:47:13,525
highlight & EP:
But psychologically, spiritually for people, you know, being able to find solace
650
00:47:13,525 --> 00:47:19,945
highlight & EP:
in a landscape like that, you know, is really powerful. I think it reduces death anxiety.
651
00:47:20,265 --> 00:47:25,925
highlight & EP:
You know, you hear this by people that cease, you know, services in these woodland
652
00:47:25,925 --> 00:47:28,085
highlight & EP:
natural conservation burial grounds.
653
00:47:28,225 --> 00:47:31,965
highlight & EP:
They're also visited much more than conventional cemeteries.
654
00:47:32,305 --> 00:47:37,345
highlight & EP:
Many people don't understand that. Except for some ethnic communities,
655
00:47:37,725 --> 00:47:40,725
highlight & EP:
visitation rarely takes place after the first year.
656
00:47:40,945 --> 00:47:46,865
highlight & EP:
And think about all the watering and the mowing and the CO2 that goes in the atmosphere.
657
00:47:47,165 --> 00:47:52,605
highlight & EP:
I mean, I think we should be rewilding all of our conventional cemeteries. What are we doing?
658
00:47:52,945 --> 00:47:56,825
highlight & EP:
You know, that's another idea that should catch on.
659
00:47:56,825 --> 00:48:00,085
highlight & EP:
Yeah and the southern metropolitan
660
00:48:00,085 --> 00:48:03,225
highlight & EP:
cemeteries trust has recently earlier this
661
00:48:03,225 --> 00:48:06,865
highlight & EP:
year opened or unveiled their rewilding
662
00:48:06,865 --> 00:48:12,705
highlight & EP:
of the native species in melbourne cemetery and yeah that was amazing because
663
00:48:12,705 --> 00:48:16,585
highlight & EP:
that's exactly what they've done in some of the old part is planted you know
664
00:48:16,585 --> 00:48:20,365
highlight & EP:
native species and just let them flower and seed and it's such a better way
665
00:48:20,365 --> 00:48:24,745
highlight & EP:
in which to do it they've been doing it with golf courses for a number of years,
666
00:48:24,985 --> 00:48:26,365
highlight & EP:
at least in the US, I know.
667
00:48:26,925 --> 00:48:31,665
highlight & EP:
It's a funny thing. I think there should be sensitivity about not impacting
668
00:48:31,665 --> 00:48:35,385
highlight & EP:
families who were sold one thing aesthetically.
669
00:48:35,665 --> 00:48:43,445
highlight & EP:
But really, I think climate change should be a more overriding aim here, our concern.
670
00:48:43,765 --> 00:48:48,325
highlight & EP:
And I think we really need to really look at how we keep up these facilities.
671
00:48:48,625 --> 00:48:53,325
highlight & EP:
And they're way too energy intensive. It just doesn't make sense to me.
672
00:48:53,505 --> 00:48:56,145
highlight & EP:
I hope rewilding happens too.
673
00:48:56,345 --> 00:49:00,285
highlight & EP:
So some combination of that, I think that might open the door.
674
00:49:00,445 --> 00:49:05,785
highlight & EP:
If you did rewilding properly, you'd be making restoration burial grounds,
675
00:49:05,925 --> 00:49:08,645
highlight & EP:
conservation burial grounds. I mean, that's what would happen naturally.
676
00:49:09,245 --> 00:49:14,785
highlight & EP:
There's also the potential for working with indigenous communities and doing burial on country.
677
00:49:14,985 --> 00:49:18,605
highlight & EP:
There's a lot of cool things that could come about for sure. That's so true.
678
00:49:18,965 --> 00:49:25,325
highlight & EP:
And tell me, with your role and what you've seen in your various experiences,
679
00:49:25,325 --> 00:49:32,605
highlight & EP:
you seem to have always been in the end-of-life space, regardless of what role you've had. What has...
680
00:49:33,324 --> 00:49:38,684
highlight & EP:
Advice or suggestions can you give to people to support someone who's going
681
00:49:38,684 --> 00:49:41,204
highlight & EP:
through the grieving process or the end-of-life process?
682
00:49:41,484 --> 00:49:48,144
highlight & EP:
I don't know if it's because we've seen too many bad movies or TV shows or have
683
00:49:48,144 --> 00:49:54,104
highlight & EP:
been made to feel that being there, showing up for grief is above our pay grade.
684
00:49:55,644 --> 00:50:00,304
highlight & EP:
I think a lot of people genuinely are afraid to show up because they feel like
685
00:50:00,304 --> 00:50:01,544
highlight & EP:
they may say the wrong thing.
686
00:50:01,724 --> 00:50:05,924
highlight & EP:
What people need to understand is that they don't have to say anything.
687
00:50:06,044 --> 00:50:07,644
highlight & EP:
They just have to be present.
688
00:50:07,824 --> 00:50:12,444
highlight & EP:
And that's with grief and loss support. There's a man, a hero of mine in the
689
00:50:12,444 --> 00:50:19,004
highlight & EP:
States by the name of Parker Palmer, who tells this story about he became a Quaker late in life.
690
00:50:19,524 --> 00:50:24,284
highlight & EP:
And he felt like a bit of a fraud. Professionally, he was sort of making a name
691
00:50:24,284 --> 00:50:28,124
highlight & EP:
for himself in the well-being space, but he was also dealing with depression.
692
00:50:28,884 --> 00:50:34,044
highlight & EP:
And he tells a story about a guy from his church that would come over once a
693
00:50:34,044 --> 00:50:39,184
highlight & EP:
week for a couple of months when he was really in a bad way and basically just hold his foot.
694
00:50:40,064 --> 00:50:46,844
highlight & EP:
Didn't say a word, but he gave him hope that when he came around the other side, he would be there.
695
00:50:46,984 --> 00:50:51,224
highlight & EP:
And that guy didn't have to say anything. And that's what we really train people to do.
696
00:50:51,364 --> 00:50:54,244
highlight & EP:
They don't have to really worry because if you're not going in
697
00:50:54,244 --> 00:50:57,224
highlight & EP:
there to fix or cheer up or if you're
698
00:50:57,224 --> 00:51:00,884
highlight & EP:
going in there to extend kindness you
699
00:51:00,884 --> 00:51:04,104
highlight & EP:
just have to be there you know less really is
700
00:51:04,104 --> 00:51:08,924
highlight & EP:
more and that's what i would encourage people to do there are some great tools
701
00:51:08,924 --> 00:51:14,464
highlight & EP:
we're lucky we have some wonderful people working in this space probably know
702
00:51:14,464 --> 00:51:20,484
highlight & EP:
carrie noonan at the death literacy institute she did a wonderful workshop for
703
00:51:20,484 --> 00:51:22,744
highlight & EP:
our companions showing up for grief,
704
00:51:22,964 --> 00:51:27,324
highlight & EP:
and I still sometimes show her slides to people, helping people.
705
00:51:27,484 --> 00:51:30,504
highlight & EP:
You know, you don't need to understand all the theoretical frameworks.
706
00:51:30,504 --> 00:51:36,324
highlight & EP:
You just need to know that if people can experience connection during those
707
00:51:36,324 --> 00:51:39,024
highlight & EP:
times, and they know that what they're going through,
708
00:51:39,204 --> 00:51:43,264
highlight & EP:
they're not going through alone, that can make all the difference in the world.
709
00:51:43,424 --> 00:51:49,464
highlight & EP:
So we have to get away from thinking that it's going to require a cert for any level of expertise.
710
00:51:49,644 --> 00:51:55,024
highlight & EP:
It's just really, it's just common humanity that I think is what's going to
711
00:51:55,024 --> 00:51:58,044
highlight & EP:
allow people to do what they need to do in those times.
712
00:51:58,284 --> 00:52:05,124
highlight & EP:
And I think a mutual friend of ours once explained to me that she practices shut uppiness.
713
00:52:05,704 --> 00:52:12,604
highlight & EP:
And I love that term. And I think it's such a beautiful thing to practice is
714
00:52:12,604 --> 00:52:18,004
highlight & EP:
to not to feel like you were saying that we have to go in there and fix everything.
715
00:52:18,004 --> 00:52:21,124
highlight & EP:
Because I think that that's something that we feel compelled to do.
716
00:52:22,287 --> 00:52:28,107
highlight & EP:
Just being there and whether it's holding someone's foot or practicing shut-up-edness.
717
00:52:28,327 --> 00:52:34,047
highlight & EP:
It's quite profound what that can do because the person has a chance to feel
718
00:52:34,047 --> 00:52:40,267
highlight & EP:
witnessed and they don't have to feel like some people do talking to a psychiatrist
719
00:52:40,267 --> 00:52:42,687
highlight & EP:
or psychologist that they're weak and disordered.
720
00:52:42,807 --> 00:52:48,327
highlight & EP:
And I think of a man I supported who really was reluctant to be vulnerable and
721
00:52:48,327 --> 00:52:54,127
highlight & EP:
open with his clinicians. But with me, he learned to do that and he was comfortable.
722
00:52:54,447 --> 00:52:57,307
highlight & EP:
It really doesn't take all that much.
723
00:52:57,647 --> 00:53:04,387
highlight & EP:
In fact, when we started social health, we were thinking of having this credentialing
724
00:53:04,387 --> 00:53:06,267
highlight & EP:
framework and certification program.
725
00:53:06,447 --> 00:53:10,127
highlight & EP:
And it was actually Hugh McKay that really taught us to just sort of dumb it
726
00:53:10,127 --> 00:53:14,547
highlight & EP:
down a bit and not make too big of a deal of what we're really trying to do.
727
00:53:15,147 --> 00:53:19,767
highlight & EP:
Yes, we have to vet people and we have to support people. and there's secondary
728
00:53:19,767 --> 00:53:24,647
highlight & EP:
traumatic stress that, you know, those impacts are real and have to be mitigated.
729
00:53:24,847 --> 00:53:28,287
highlight & EP:
You have to give people an opportunity to debrief.
730
00:53:28,907 --> 00:53:33,867
highlight & EP:
But it really doesn't require a big competency. It's really more of a commitment
731
00:53:33,867 --> 00:53:38,727
highlight & EP:
that a person has to make to just showing up in a person's life and not being afraid.
732
00:53:38,927 --> 00:53:42,467
highlight & EP:
And I think when we learn to do it in one area, it's easier to do it,
733
00:53:42,567 --> 00:53:46,747
highlight & EP:
you know, when we see someone suffering in some other area, and it's easier
734
00:53:46,747 --> 00:53:50,407
highlight & EP:
to receive that same support, you know, from someone else.
735
00:53:50,607 --> 00:53:57,307
highlight & EP:
What do you think you would say would be the strengths of us adopting or expanding,
736
00:53:57,307 --> 00:54:01,847
highlight & EP:
you know, a social model of well-being in the community?
737
00:54:01,927 --> 00:54:06,067
highlight & EP:
What do you see as the qualities that you see through the activities that you're
738
00:54:06,067 --> 00:54:07,687
highlight & EP:
running through Social Health Australia?
739
00:54:07,947 --> 00:54:12,067
highlight & EP:
Like what improvements, what are the benefits that society gets out of the sort
740
00:54:12,067 --> 00:54:13,447
highlight & EP:
of work that you're doing, Joe?
741
00:54:13,827 --> 00:54:19,847
highlight & EP:
Right. Well, as I said, we're not going to get out of the loneliness and epidemic
742
00:54:19,847 --> 00:54:24,587
highlight & EP:
and mental health crisis by just hiring more clinical psychs and the medical
743
00:54:24,587 --> 00:54:26,187
highlight & EP:
profession has figured that out.
744
00:54:26,467 --> 00:54:31,707
highlight & EP:
The benefits are that it's enormously cost effective, first of all,
745
00:54:31,827 --> 00:54:38,127
highlight & EP:
because, you know, many people, as I said, are turning to clinicians because that's all they have.
746
00:54:38,127 --> 00:54:40,807
highlight & EP:
They don't have neighbors, they may not have faith communities,
747
00:54:41,107 --> 00:54:45,007
highlight & EP:
they don't have families that they can turn to, so they.
748
00:54:45,916 --> 00:54:48,956
highlight & EP:
They go or they think they're going to be able to get in.
749
00:54:49,196 --> 00:54:53,076
highlight & EP:
If we could take on this work for ourselves and return,
750
00:54:53,436 --> 00:55:00,376
highlight & EP:
you know, in some way to a world where we knew we could rely on each other and
751
00:55:00,376 --> 00:55:01,876
highlight & EP:
we would be there for each other,
752
00:55:02,136 --> 00:55:09,836
highlight & EP:
you know, there's a great deal of evidence that loneliness is associated with all sorts of ailments,
753
00:55:10,276 --> 00:55:12,736
highlight & EP:
suicidal ideation, inflammation,
754
00:55:13,396 --> 00:55:18,736
highlight & EP:
stroke, heart disease, And conversely, access to meaningful relations,
755
00:55:19,056 --> 00:55:26,396
highlight & EP:
social capital, it correlates with lower disability rates, enhanced employment opportunities,
756
00:55:26,936 --> 00:55:28,976
highlight & EP:
more meaningful relationships.
757
00:55:29,736 --> 00:55:30,876
highlight & EP:
Better mental health.
758
00:55:31,356 --> 00:55:35,776
highlight & EP:
You know, there's some real benefits. It's one of the things that I would love to show.
759
00:55:36,016 --> 00:55:39,536
highlight & EP:
In fact, our companioning program really grew out of an idea.
760
00:55:39,736 --> 00:55:44,036
highlight & EP:
A large health provider was trying to do on their own, but they couldn't because
761
00:55:44,036 --> 00:55:46,136
highlight & EP:
there were too many bureaucratic hurdles.
762
00:55:46,796 --> 00:55:52,976
highlight & EP:
But this is a group of people that were trying to reduce the hospital readmission rates.
763
00:55:53,216 --> 00:55:58,296
highlight & EP:
You know, when people leave hospitals, people return to hospitals who are in,
764
00:55:58,656 --> 00:56:03,056
highlight & EP:
you know, who have deficient social support networks in the same way that they return to prisons.
765
00:56:03,236 --> 00:56:07,556
highlight & EP:
You know, you hear about how people get comfortable being institutionalized,
766
00:56:07,656 --> 00:56:08,776
highlight & EP:
but that's a big problem.
767
00:56:09,376 --> 00:56:13,756
highlight & EP:
And if we had enough time, you need study over several years,
768
00:56:13,916 --> 00:56:18,616
highlight & EP:
I think you could show that you could probably reduce hospital readmission rates as well.
769
00:56:18,796 --> 00:56:23,996
highlight & EP:
So there's all sorts of public health benefits that could be brought about if
770
00:56:23,996 --> 00:56:27,496
highlight & EP:
we could get people to do more of this ourselves.
771
00:56:28,016 --> 00:56:33,396
highlight & EP:
And really, we're trending in the right direction. The healthcare community
772
00:56:33,396 --> 00:56:38,256
highlight & EP:
has been great about encouraging people to use the community for sports.
773
00:56:38,376 --> 00:56:42,556
highlight & EP:
They've been really open to working with entities like social health,
774
00:56:42,716 --> 00:56:44,396
highlight & EP:
you know, to give us referrals.
775
00:56:44,756 --> 00:56:48,536
highlight & EP:
Funding is a different story, but I think that's what we need to probably do.
776
00:56:48,736 --> 00:56:54,556
highlight & EP:
We need to figure out a way of empowering a lot of community groups to get involved.
777
00:56:54,696 --> 00:56:58,016
highlight & EP:
I don't think there needs to be, you know, one entity in peak body.
778
00:56:58,016 --> 00:57:03,516
highlight & EP:
I think we need a lot of hands on deck, you know, and we need to catch people where we catch them.
779
00:57:04,329 --> 00:57:09,009
highlight & EP:
And you hear this about suicide, for example, this came up, I did a talk the
780
00:57:09,009 --> 00:57:14,829
highlight & EP:
other day at the Lions Club, and this man was saying, gosh, I wonder how many
781
00:57:14,829 --> 00:57:17,969
highlight & EP:
people you've saved from suicide.
782
00:57:17,969 --> 00:57:21,609
highlight & EP:
And we've had a couple people that eventually revealed that to us.
783
00:57:21,829 --> 00:57:27,569
highlight & EP:
They had been considering that. And sometimes it takes one person showing up in their lives.
784
00:57:27,669 --> 00:57:34,049
highlight & EP:
It doesn't take a community. One person who, you know, extends human decency
785
00:57:34,049 --> 00:57:38,849
highlight & EP:
at a critical time that can make all the difference in the world.
786
00:57:39,129 --> 00:57:44,669
highlight & EP:
So what my hope is that we find all sorts of community organizations and civic
787
00:57:44,669 --> 00:57:49,049
highlight & EP:
groups and all sorts of entities working at the community level,
788
00:57:49,269 --> 00:57:52,349
highlight & EP:
getting involved with this work and taking it on.
789
00:57:52,349 --> 00:57:56,689
highlight & EP:
We would love to play a role in helping, you know, be involved with that.
790
00:57:56,689 --> 00:58:01,989
highlight & EP:
Maybe it's so much work to recruit and train and support volunteers and.
791
00:58:02,389 --> 00:58:04,369
highlight & EP:
You know, we all have to pick our spots.
792
00:58:04,569 --> 00:58:08,449
highlight & EP:
We're working with a couple groups. We're working right now with Humanist Australia
793
00:58:08,449 --> 00:58:13,069
highlight & EP:
to be able to sort of let them do their own companioning initiative that we're
794
00:58:13,069 --> 00:58:14,269
highlight & EP:
sort of standing behind.
795
00:58:14,509 --> 00:58:19,189
highlight & EP:
And I'd like to do more of that out there and encourage more people to sort of get in the game.
796
00:58:19,409 --> 00:58:24,869
highlight & EP:
That's where it has to go. And we've certainly seen a rise in community programs
797
00:58:24,869 --> 00:58:29,689
highlight & EP:
such as, you know, the chatty cafes that are now actually operating.
798
00:58:29,749 --> 00:58:33,149
highlight & EP:
I know that there's few on the peninsula now where I live.
799
00:58:33,349 --> 00:58:37,909
highlight & EP:
You know, we have the death cafes if people are actually interested in end of
800
00:58:37,909 --> 00:58:39,689
highlight & EP:
life and having those conversations.
801
00:58:40,149 --> 00:58:46,229
highlight & EP:
So you're saying that you really see the, you know, those grassroots community
802
00:58:46,229 --> 00:58:50,409
highlight & EP:
groups as being instrumental. And we also have things like podcasts,
803
00:58:50,629 --> 00:58:54,449
highlight & EP:
you know, create a safe space for people to be open and vulnerable.
804
00:58:54,689 --> 00:58:57,409
highlight & EP:
I was talking to Annie Whitlock about that yesterday. We said,
805
00:58:57,509 --> 00:59:00,769
highlight & EP:
gosh, maybe we should do one. It's such a great way.
806
00:59:01,569 --> 00:59:08,449
highlight & EP:
I think it's especially difficult for older men to sort of emote and to get comfortable.
807
00:59:08,449 --> 00:59:11,329
highlight & EP:
And you know yes there's men's groups
808
00:59:11,329 --> 00:59:15,029
highlight & EP:
and men's sheds and some outlets here and there but
809
00:59:15,029 --> 00:59:18,089
highlight & EP:
that's what we need to do is create more safe areas
810
00:59:18,089 --> 00:59:20,789
highlight & EP:
for people to acknowledge you know
811
00:59:20,789 --> 00:59:23,989
highlight & EP:
to be vulnerable acknowledge what they're going through and know
812
00:59:23,989 --> 00:59:27,169
highlight & EP:
that they may need some support and that's
813
00:59:27,169 --> 00:59:32,109
highlight & EP:
really really really tricky but that's where i think sporting clubs you know
814
00:59:32,109 --> 00:59:37,809
highlight & EP:
you mentioned michelle limb it's interesting in her research she found out that
815
00:59:37,809 --> 00:59:42,629
highlight & EP:
participation in sporting clubs does not correlate with reduced feelings of
816
00:59:42,629 --> 00:59:44,529
highlight & EP:
loneliness which is really interesting and,
817
00:59:45,107 --> 00:59:49,307
highlight & EP:
And I learned from my hockey member, mate, who I supported, you know,
818
00:59:49,367 --> 00:59:54,347
highlight & EP:
he said it was devastating to him when he came back to the rink after a year,
819
00:59:54,487 --> 00:59:55,847
highlight & EP:
a year after his wife died.
820
00:59:55,987 --> 00:59:59,367
highlight & EP:
And these guys, they had known for 40 years, he said, they turned around and
821
00:59:59,367 --> 01:00:00,787
highlight & EP:
walked away like they saw a ghost.
822
01:00:01,627 --> 01:00:04,667
highlight & EP:
And they just didn't know, they didn't want to say the wrong thing.
823
01:00:04,807 --> 01:00:07,547
highlight & EP:
They were uncomfortable. They were, you know, they didn't know what to do.
824
01:00:08,167 --> 01:00:11,967
highlight & EP:
So, Al and I have talked about, oh, gosh, could we train people?
825
01:00:11,967 --> 01:00:16,207
highlight & EP:
Have one designated captain that you know, you know, that you could go to,
826
01:00:16,547 --> 01:00:19,227
highlight & EP:
you know, but that's what we really need.
827
01:00:19,367 --> 01:00:23,127
highlight & EP:
We need more, given that we're not going to do anything about the fact that
828
01:00:23,127 --> 01:00:29,707
highlight & EP:
we are stuck living in our detached homes and our civic and religious institutions
829
01:00:29,707 --> 01:00:31,847
highlight & EP:
are, you know, are on the decline.
830
01:00:31,887 --> 01:00:37,587
highlight & EP:
We have to find more innovative forms of, of, of surrogacy, I guess,
831
01:00:37,727 --> 01:00:43,427
highlight & EP:
to just allow people to connect and be able to connect at critical times.
832
01:00:43,867 --> 01:00:49,007
highlight & EP:
Yeah, it's going to be a lot of work. But as I said, I think we're trending in the right direction.
833
01:00:49,447 --> 01:00:54,387
highlight & EP:
What do you do, Joe, on a daily basis to, you know, make that connection or,
834
01:00:54,567 --> 01:00:59,847
highlight & EP:
you know, because it seems to be that you're a person that lives this,
835
01:01:00,107 --> 01:01:05,427
highlight & EP:
you know, and has consistently lived this day in, day out for a very long time.
836
01:01:05,427 --> 01:01:09,467
highlight & EP:
It's not just something that you put a hat on when you go to work and this is what you do.
837
01:01:09,727 --> 01:01:13,647
highlight & EP:
So what do you find that you do on a daily basis?
838
01:01:14,007 --> 01:01:20,727
highlight & EP:
I always try to have a couple people in my life that I check in on and then I connect with.
839
01:01:20,967 --> 01:01:28,107
highlight & EP:
So I've gotten better about having regular calls with people back in the homeland and even here.
840
01:01:28,986 --> 01:01:35,026
highlight & EP:
And I know a couple people who are dealing with loneliness, like I've been dealing with it.
841
01:01:35,366 --> 01:01:40,326
highlight & EP:
And it doesn't really take much to just check in and have a cup of coffee or,
842
01:01:40,526 --> 01:01:42,606
highlight & EP:
you know, and it makes my life richer too.
843
01:01:42,846 --> 01:01:46,926
highlight & EP:
So I've tried to, you know, I try to do that.
844
01:01:46,926 --> 01:01:51,946
highlight & EP:
I probably don't do as much as I could on the self-care front in general,
845
01:01:51,946 --> 01:01:55,846
highlight & EP:
but I do try to take care of myself and I've been,
846
01:01:56,006 --> 01:02:00,826
highlight & EP:
I had a long bout of long COVID that I'm just sort of recovering from,
847
01:02:00,986 --> 01:02:05,986
highlight & EP:
which has really made it difficult to do much of, but I'm sort of getting over
848
01:02:05,986 --> 01:02:12,106
highlight & EP:
that and it's sensitized me to a lot of what happens with people living with disabilities.
849
01:02:12,346 --> 01:02:16,506
highlight & EP:
And I maybe realized how we're all at some point, especially at the end of life,
850
01:02:16,706 --> 01:02:20,306
highlight & EP:
you You know, unless you sort of die suddenly, you're going to be dealing with
851
01:02:20,306 --> 01:02:23,866
highlight & EP:
disability then and we otherwise it.
852
01:02:24,006 --> 01:02:29,666
highlight & EP:
And I think I try to have a manageable amount of suffering in my life.
853
01:02:29,866 --> 01:02:34,766
highlight & EP:
I feel like I need it to be feeling like I'm living in community,
854
01:02:35,066 --> 01:02:38,666
highlight & EP:
you know, and if I don't have it, I feel like I'm disconnected.
855
01:02:39,046 --> 01:02:43,506
highlight & EP:
And I it's funny. I was talking about this with our mutual friend, Annie.
856
01:02:43,506 --> 01:02:46,646
highlight & EP:
You know i think a lot of people are afraid
857
01:02:46,646 --> 01:02:49,506
highlight & EP:
to be around people who are in pain and think
858
01:02:49,506 --> 01:02:53,066
highlight & EP:
it and there is secondary traumatic stress and vicarious trauma
859
01:02:53,066 --> 01:02:56,286
highlight & EP:
and there is a way to learn to be more boundaried but
860
01:02:56,286 --> 01:03:00,906
highlight & EP:
you know the jesuit liberation theologians used to say that you know when we
861
01:03:00,906 --> 01:03:06,026
highlight & EP:
really live in community when one person suffers we all suffer you know and
862
01:03:06,026 --> 01:03:11,206
highlight & EP:
i think that we need to learn how to show up for that and not be afraid of being
863
01:03:11,206 --> 01:03:15,706
highlight & EP:
around people who are in pain because it will be us at some point.
864
01:03:15,986 --> 01:03:19,266
highlight & EP:
And we want to know that there'll be people that we can turn to.
865
01:03:19,526 --> 01:03:25,426
highlight & EP:
So that's my big tip. And I'm trying to do that in a manageable way and a way
866
01:03:25,426 --> 01:03:29,286
highlight & EP:
that allows me to stay healthy and whole and not feel overwhelmed.
867
01:03:29,586 --> 01:03:32,926
highlight & EP:
I think that's a really good advice, Joe. And I think that's a great way to
868
01:03:32,926 --> 01:03:35,186
highlight & EP:
actually end our interview. Sounds good.
869
01:03:35,686 --> 01:03:38,626
highlight & EP:
Thank you for the opportunity to speak today, Catherine.
870
01:03:39,326 --> 01:03:41,926
highlight & EP:
Oh, it's been a pleasure having you, Joe. Thank you very much.
871
01:03:44,206 --> 01:03:47,886
outro:
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872
01:03:48,106 --> 01:03:49,946
outro:
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873
01:03:50,466 --> 01:03:55,006
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outro:
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01:04:08,666 --> 01:04:12,726
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outro:
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Resources
- Links & Resources:
-
- Green Burial Council - https://www.greenburialcouncil.org/
-
- Social Health Australia - https://socialhealthaustralia.org/
- My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?
Our guide, ‘My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?’ provides practical steps for the hours and days after a loved one's death. Download it here.
- Support Services
If you're feeling overwhelmed by grief, find support through our resources and bereavement services here.