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There are these life events that occur, death, divorce, losing one's job,

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being bullied at school, moving to a different city, all sorts of things that happen.

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And if you don't have a social support network to guide you through there,

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those things can be really much mo ... Read More

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highlight & EP:
There are these life events that occur, death, divorce, losing one's job,

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highlight & EP:
being bullied at school, moving to a different city, all sorts of things that happen.

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And if you don't have a social support network to guide you through there,

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those things can be really much more debilitating than they need to be.

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It's part of our common humanity to go through these things.

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It's not indicative of us being weak or disordered. It's what happens.

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intro:
Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging open conversations about

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intro:
dying and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death back to life.

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intro:
Because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared.

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intro:
Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges the lands of the Kulin Nations and recognises

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their connection to land, sea and community.

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intro:
We pay our respects to their Elders, past, present and emerging and extend that

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respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe.

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Today we have Jo Seahe, Executive Director of Social Health Australia.

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Joe has provided subclinical, social-emotional, existential support in a wide

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range of settings, including hospitals, emergencies and end-of-life contexts.

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A Peabody Award-winning journalist, Joe is founder of the Green Burial Council

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in the United States and he's co-editor-in-chief of the newly formed International

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Journal of Disability Policy and Advocacy.

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Jo was recently awarded a National Industry PhD Program Scholarship to research

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new models of social and disability housing that foster social connectivity.

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Thank you so much for being with us, Joe. Thank you for having me.

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Now, that was a lot of big words that we just actually used in that introduction.

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I'm sure that you will make it a little bit more understandable for us as we go through.

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So what is your current role at Social Health Australia and what does it actually involve?

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So I am currently the executive director and executive officer.

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And while I'm finding out how much bandwidth I have while starting this PhD.

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But right now what I'm doing is making sure that we continue to bring projects forward,

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figure out new ways of supporting people who are impacted by social isolation

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and loneliness, in particular people dealing with illness and transition and grief and loss.

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So we primarily have been doing that through a concept of what we call community

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companioning, and we get referrals from a variety of sources,

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large health providers, funeral service operators,

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health department, and we support people who have deficient social support networks

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and who want someone who can just walk alongside them, not to fix them or pull them out of any hole,

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but to step into that hole with them for a little bit and let them find some

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common humanity in their suffering.

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And so we're currently moving into a bit of an incubator model where we're inviting

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people in the community with ideas to bring them forward.

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And then we're providing supports and assistance and helping get the projects funded and managed.

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And we've got three such programs right now in place, including one that's going

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to be involving end-of-life companioning. Can you talk us through that program?

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Is that at the stage where you can give us some examples?

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It's an extension of some of the work we've done before.

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So what we're trying to do is to get people to reclaim some of their deep,

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evolved ways of being there for one another.

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And if you look through the world, and especially within indigenous communities,

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you see the use of listening and touch and breath work to sort of co-regulate.

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What we're trying to do is we recruit people from all walks of life.

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People typically who want to be involved with someone and help bring about a

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more meaningful relationship in their life and be able to just walk alongside

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them and make sure that, again, they find some common humanity in what they're dealing with.

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So we're supporting people who are in end-of-life situations where they're terminally

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ill, some who are opting for voluntary assisted dying, especially under rather

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complicated circumstances where family members may not quite be on board.

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We're working with people who have suffered a loss recently and continue to

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support their bereavement. We're envisioning also going into some aged care facilities.

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We've tried one model where several of our companions who are volunteers support

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community members who are referred to us.

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And many of the community members, or several in the last round of our program,

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became companions, including a man who's in an aged care facility.

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So we're thinking about doing more end-of-life companioning in aged care by

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recruiting and training some people who can provide that for their fellow residents.

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That's the latest iteration.

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But it's really, I think it's got a lot of potential and could go out wider,

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but we're still kind of working out the wrinkles and trying to prove success with the concept.

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So these volunteers, they partnered with someone in the community that needs

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some support that have been identified by services to your organization.

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And when you say that there's aspects of reconnecting with age-old practices.

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So that's more of a holistic approach to their health in a social context.

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Is that the sort of thing?

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Well, I mean, I think there's a lot of suffering that we're experiencing today

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that is often made debilitating because we're forced to experience it individually

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rather than communally.

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And we don't often find meaning in those instances. Take death, for example.

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Many of us have to encounter it as a failed medical experience and then a commercial

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transaction rather than this human universal, right?

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And I've seen this with people that we've supported who've been impacted by complicated grief.

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There's a friend of mine, a 93-year-old man who was a member of my ice hockey club.

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And he was dealing with complicated grief and was under the care of a psychiatrist

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and a psychologist. And he was really having a difficult time.

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He felt like his inability to move through his grief was a sign of weakness

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or, you know, of him being disordered.

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And through connecting him with some companions, he kind of came to realize

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that this is something we all do.

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But historically, it's something we've done together, you know,

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and we understand. And I think we've lost our ability to show up for grief in

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the same way because it's been taken away from us, you know?

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And I think the medical profession has done a really good job inviting people in.

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In recent years, the funeral industry quite hasn't gotten there yet,

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but that's what we're hoping to do to allow people to participate more fully

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in their end-of-life rituals and to be involved in activities afterwards that

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allow them to have a continuing bond and allow them to move through the grieving

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process in a healthy way.

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So when you're talking, Jo, things that come to my mind, you know,

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my best friend is an emergency doctor, and she's been a guest on the podcast

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previously. She was our first guest.

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And yeah, that sort of training that they go through as doctors that death is

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a failure of treatment, but it is actually just a natural process of life.

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And then the other

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thing that comes to mind is also you know we

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were briefly talking before we started recording about design

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and architecture and and our homes were

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designed with you know the parlour in the front room which was specifically

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for being a funeral parlour when you would lay out the dead and you would take

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care of the dead you would wash after they died and and then present them and

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people would come in to the house and and you know grieve with the family So I can see that, you know,

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we have lost that immediate connection with those things.

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That's really, that's interesting. You know, you mentioned your friend who's

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an emergency room physician.

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Many people show up to emergency departments now out of loneliness,

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and they're calling ambulances, believe it or not, for the same reason.

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And funeral directors have reported in recent years, several that I've spoken

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to, they've had calls from families who they've connected with who want to talk

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about what's going on for them.

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And it's because they have no place else to go.

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I think 20% of GP visits are estimated to be used by people who just really want to have a chat.

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You know yeah i think our program like many out there just it's an example of

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catching people where they're at and finding people you know who could use just

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a little bit of compassion and common humanity and you know it's a form of surrogacy

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i really believe that we probably.

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Didn't deal with this the same way when we live in a more communal fashion and

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because you know it's been siloed.

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It's really hard for us.

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We typically don't go through the loss of a loved one that often throughout our lives.

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And it's a difficult challenge, but we don't really have,

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people who help us see that there's a path forward, you know,

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and that's what we're doing. It's funny, not funny, but quite beautiful.

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Last year, one of the members of our co-housing community, intentional community

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here, was diagnosed with terminal cancer, and he brought our community together for a circle,

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talking circle, and he said, I just want to be clear, you know,

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this isn't a living funeral.

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I know I'm a good guy. I just wanted to talk about this death thing.

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We're all going to go through it. I'm just a little heavy.

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But he wanted to make it a teachable moment and said, I thought you might have

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some questions about what I might be going through.

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Those things probably happen more

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naturally when we were living in a more interdependent, connected way.

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And so I think we need to be figuring out more creative strategies to get that information across.

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And I think that there's also been that shift in families with the ease of travel

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and working, et cetera, and there's many other reasons as well.

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But we've lost that having multiple generations in the same household living

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or living down the street. It's not a regular thing that occurs any longer.

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So that, yeah, that disconnect as well.

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But you mentioned that just your co-housing where you live.

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So, you know, the things that you're talking about, Jo, these are something

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that you live and breathe every day.

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This isn't just your job, is it? So can you tell us a little bit about the co-housing

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where you do live, if you don't mind?

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So we're in Brunswick, Victoria, and it's the first co-housing project in Australia

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that's sort of dedicated to this Danish model,

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which is essentially set up to where everyone has their own home,

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or in our case, apartment.

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And then we share spaces. So we have a communal dining room and kitchen where

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we eat together twice a week. There's a laundry facility where we see people on the seventh floor.

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There's a music room and workshop in the basement.

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There's going to be an onsen. There's a couple of guest apartments.

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There's a multi-purpose room where we show movies and people do yoga and such.

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And those spaces are really important because they allow us to gather and connect.

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And unfortunately, you know, a typical apartment building wouldn't have those things.

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But the idea is that everyone knows that they have some responsibilities to

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contribute to the community, whether that's preparing meals or cleaning dishes

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or serving on committees to figure things out.

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And we sort of naturally just have learned to be there for one another.

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We have, I'd say, probably 70% neurodiversity. We have a couple people with

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significant developmental intellectual disabilities.

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We have a number of people aging in place trying to.

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Stave off having to go into an aged care facility and a couple of young families

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and it's been really great i mean compared to where we had been living where

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i was experiencing loneliness.

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Nine years in two neighborhoods where we never had any contact with our neighbors

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and had no real ability to connect with them and i i went back to the states

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to take my son back he was having some difficulty as well i think fitting in

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and i was having conversations with old friends meals and coffees and drinks.

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And I started to feel like, you know, I was coming to life through their eyes.

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And I started to realize when you don't have people reflecting back who you

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are, you know, you start to lose your identity.

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And that's what was going on. And I told my wife, we got to do something here.

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And I had heard about this community being developed and we were able to grab the last apartment.

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And I'm so grateful that we were because it's been a real game changer in all of our lives.

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That's amazing. And I recently had Michelle Lim, the CEO of Ending Loneliness,

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and she was talking about just the fact that there is an increase in the amount

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of people who do feel lonely.

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And it's not something that is isolated to an aging population.

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It affects people at all ages feeling that disconnect and that loneliness.

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So, you know, The work that you're doing is so important there.

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And speaking of loneliness, there's an awareness that it's known,

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we all understand it as a subjective feeling that we don't have enough people

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in our lives to be healthy and happy.

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But there's a form of loneliness there.

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That's related to our conversation today, which is referred to as existential

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loneliness, which is brought on by meaninglessness.

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And so, you know, there are these life events that occur, death,

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divorce, losing one's job, being bullied at school, moving to a different city,

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all sorts of things that happen.

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And if you don't have a social support network to guide you through there,

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that those things can be really much more debilitating than they need to be.

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But when we have people that, you know, have been around us and who have probably

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been through the experience, we realize it's part of our common humanity to

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go through these things. It's not indicative of us being weak or disordered.

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It's what happens. But that's the problem.

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And so having one person show up in your life to extend some kindness,

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human decency, can bring enough meaning into those instances to,

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I think, overcome the meaninglessness that can contribute to this existential loneliness.

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And that's really what we've been trying to do with social health.

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And tell me this isn't the

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only time you've been in a position where

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you've been supporting you know working for the

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greater good you started off as a Jesuit lay

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minister back in the United States I did

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I was doing peace and social justice programming

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at the University of San Francisco I was a Jesuit volunteer

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and then I stayed around for three more years doing pastoral

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care and that kind of advocacy work and it was a great experience and in fact

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through that experience i learned about this concept of spiritual direction

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or spiritual companioning which comes out of this christian mystic tradition

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of just creating space for another person to.

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Reflect and discern whatever they want to, and if they want to,

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maybe think about a role for the divine.

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But I was actually, I had a really profound experience with that work, and I trained to do that.

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And it sort of drew me into wanting to get involved with pastoral care here

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in Australia a few years ago, which was really difficult, I discovered,

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to do without a religious affiliation.

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And I no longer identify as religious, so I was trying to do it in a more non- or trans-theistic way.

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And it turned out that was a little threatening to certain elements within Australia's

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spiritual care industrial complex.

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So we decided to kind of rebrand and be a bit more subversive and develop new

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nomenclature and really just focus on the community level rather than the institutional

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level where I was trying to work in.

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And it's the same thing. It's really just providing someone who can allow another

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human being to know that they're not alone in those instances.

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And it does miracles. I've seen it. It sounds so simple and I have a hard time

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articulating it sometimes.

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It doesn't sound like much of anything, but it can have a really profound impact on people's lives.

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And Joe, do you mind sharing with us what that profound experience was that

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you had in that early stage? Sure.

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I grew up in a family with two parents who grew up as depression babies,

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and they probably relied a little too much on my sister and me to kind of elevate

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what they perceived as a depressed social status.

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So I was very much encouraged to achieve and succeed.

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And I was able to break away from that. In fact, it was in part through some

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support with the Jesuits in my early 20s.

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But when I was about 40, I was interested in really trying to understand this

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concept of unconditional love.

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And I thought, you know, I grew up in a family where maybe it was doled out

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a little too conditionally in

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my mind. And I thought it was affecting my ability to be in relationship.

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And so I went to a psychologist for the first time in my life to say I wanted

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to learn about unconditional love.

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And this woman said, well, actually, I don't believe in the concepts.

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I don't think you're going to learn it here.

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But I reconnected with an old Jesuit spiritual director from years ago,

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and he helped me kind of reflect on some ideas, including looking at my life.

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And it was just coincidentally, I was sort of caretaking for an older gentleman.

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And it was that reflecting on that relationship in particular that made me realize

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that I was more than capable of loving deeply.

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And within a couple of weeks after having that epiphany, I met this incredible

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woman from Melbourne, Juliet, and we got married very shortly after that.

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And I wanted to figure out how I was just so impacted by that experience.

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I wanted to learn how to kind of do that for others. So I did a training in,

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at the time there were only two places in the U.S.

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That had training programs for spiritual directors or companions.

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And I went through that and Juliet and I were, I mean, most like us,

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most of our friends didn't identify as religious. And I didn't know how I would

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do that work outside a ministerial context.

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So we decided to buy some land out in the middle of the Mojave Desert.

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And we thought that we would open up an eco-retreat where people could,

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you know, find solace in that fierce landscape. And I would work doing spiritual

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direction and Juliet was going to run a rustic spa.

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And through that experience, we had this intense encounter with nature.

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And we started that there were these early Christian monastics who used to go

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out to the desert to befriend death. And we're starting to think about that

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idea and think about programming for the retreat and thought about end-of-life rituals.

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Could we let people have a ceremony, maybe scatter ashes?

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And they thought, wow, could people be buried here? And could the proceeds perhaps

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be invested to do ecological restoration or landscape-level conservation?

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Because we lived on the edge of thousands of empty acres, and most of them were privately held.

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And I learned that there was a man who had been thinking along the same lines, Dr.

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Billy Campbell, and had started the first natural burial ground in the States.

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And so out of that conversation came this vision. And to really put it in motion,

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we realized we needed to have verifiable standards.

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We needed to have a way of engaging this somewhat threatened industry with environmental partners.

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And we needed to create a kind of a social environmental consumer movement.

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And that's how the Green Burial Council came about.

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And can you talk me through the principles that you developed around that?

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First of all, we knew that we had a very entrenched, threatened industry that

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we wanted to be involved with the cause.

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highlight & EP:
So rather than using green burial as a cudgel, you know, to beat up on the funeral

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industry, we tried to find leaders within the field who would embrace the idea.

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highlight & EP:
And it was enlightened self-interest to do it because the funeral industry in

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the U.S., unlike here...

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Is extremely regulated, and it's somewhat protectionist.

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So they could have put the idea out of, you know, out of business,

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we could have been legislated out of existence. So we really had to be careful.

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But I also thought, you know, I didn't want to use the concept to really just

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poke holes in what was wrong with funeral service. There's a lot.

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highlight & EP:
But we used it as a way to kind of incentivize funeral directors,

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for example, to let people know that they could have funerals that didn't have

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to embalm embalming or didn't have to involve a casket.

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People could participate more fully in their end-of-life rituals.

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And cemeteries didn't have to require in the U.S.

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I think U.S. and Canada really are the only countries for the most part that

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require concrete boxes called vaults.

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highlight & EP:
They're very rarely used in Australia, but most cemeteries were unwilling until

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that time to forego the use of vaults.

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highlight & EP:
That was a big deal. And we got product manufacturers to start to think about

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worker safety and toxic chemicals often will be biodegradable in the ground,

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but they're doing awful things to workers.

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So we created an incentive to use adhesives and stains that were non-toxic and

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weren't going to cause any health issues for workers in those plants.

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highlight & EP:
And we basically then

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went out with this story to the public we had

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our standards in place and we had buy-in from the

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industry and had intrigue on the part of

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land trusts and conservation entities and things really unfolded kind of naturally

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and green burial grounds started to pop up new manufacturers came into the four

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funeral homes became very open to having eco-friendly funeral service and it allowed us.

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To manage some of the greenwashing too that was

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inevitable you know in the u.s unlike

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australia you know i think australians think

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if there's a social problem the government should handle it

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and that's not the case in the u.s because we have such weak levels of government

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there's a need to involve you know community organizations and non-profit the

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non-profits are the sector is much more robust compared to Australia and allows

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for more community organizing.

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highlight & EP:
But we basically put together stopgap governance that didn't exist and probably

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never would have come about in state legislatures.

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highlight & EP:
And so I'm really proud. In fact, I got a note the other day,

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the council is asking for input into revising their standards and they're trying to figure that out.

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highlight & EP:
And they're still, you know, still tweaking, but the work that we did has served

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as a foundation for that movement to continue to unfold.

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highlight & EP:
It wouldn't make as much sense in Australia, given the regulatory landscape,

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highlight & EP:
but it really did some great things in the States.

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highlight & EP:
And what period are we talking about, that this sort of first happened?

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highlight & EP:
So we moved, I think, to the desert in 2002 and got involved with the idea,

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2003, I was starting to get involved with this idea and thinking I could be

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highlight & EP:
involved with a company that might bring this about and realize that was tricky.

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highlight & EP:
So the council was formed in 2005, officially.

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highlight & EP:
And compared to Australia, you know, really embalming was born in America during the Civil War.

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highlight & EP:
So it is really embedded in the process over there, isn't it?

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It is. It's hard for Australians to understand.

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I mean, Americans just assumed for

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many years that if you wanted to have a funeral, you had to embalm a body.

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highlight & EP:
It's not legally required, but the industry had been really good about making

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people feel that, and they needed to have a casket.

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highlight & EP:
A lot of people don't really know that the funeral industry was created out of whole cloth.

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highlight & EP:
As you mentioned, after the Civil War, some people discovered that there was

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a market for disinterring the bodies of Union Army officers who could afford to pay for the service.

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highlight & EP:
And they would embalm the body because prior to that, you know,

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soldiers were left to lie in the battlefield and those battlefields became cemeteries.

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highlight & EP:
But with the Abraham Lincoln's funeral in particular, you know,

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highlight & EP:
embalming and cascading became, you know, in the public conscience.

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highlight & EP:
And really the funeral industry, the modern mortician was created.

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highlight & EP:
The National Funeral Directors Association was created when the casket and chemical

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companies came together.

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highlight & EP:
It's interesting to me at the same time this was going on, you know,

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highlight & EP:
doctors were glorified barbers at the time.

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highlight & EP:
They kind of got their act together and the funeral industry,

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highlight & EP:
the morticians never got the psychosocial training to allow them to do more

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highlight & EP:
than be frontline marketers for the casket and chemical companies.

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highlight & EP:
And there was a movement to do that in the US up until the 1930s,

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highlight & EP:
but the chemical casket companies really prevented that from happening.

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highlight & EP:
So we tried to

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come in you know it was really interesting

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you talk about misinformation and disinformation what

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highlight & EP:
we had to work against were really it was generations of misinformation to funeral

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highlight & EP:
directors by their supply companies that there were health concerns and that

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highlight & EP:
they shouldn't do funerals unless that body was properly embalmed.

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highlight & EP:
And by the way, the mortuary, first mortuary schools in Seville today are still

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owned by chemical companies, you know?

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highlight & EP:
So that was the centerpiece of mortuary education.

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highlight & EP:
And it took a lot to get funeral directors to realize, you know,

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highlight & EP:
there's not going to be any health risks.

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highlight & EP:
In fact, you may have more health risks being associated with the embalming

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highlight & EP:
chemicals, which are actually, you know, are more problematic when they're in

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highlight & EP:
vaporous form than they are when they're in the ground.

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highlight & EP:
But it was really hard to get

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highlight & EP:
funeral directors in particular to realize that

381
00:27:39,768 --> 00:27:42,828
highlight & EP:
there's a new way of looking at how they did their service

382
00:27:42,828 --> 00:27:46,008
highlight & EP:
and that what we were saying was you

383
00:27:46,008 --> 00:27:50,508
highlight & EP:
know conflicting with what they had been told for many years that was probably

384
00:27:50,508 --> 00:27:56,328
highlight & EP:
the most challenging part of the work getting them to think differently and

385
00:27:56,328 --> 00:28:03,028
highlight & EP:
what really in the end what really made the big difference was the rising cremation rates.

386
00:28:03,448 --> 00:28:08,488
highlight & EP:
Because Americans saw the only way around funeral service that they increasingly

387
00:28:08,488 --> 00:28:10,248
highlight & EP:
didn't want, and this started to

388
00:28:10,248 --> 00:28:14,528
highlight & EP:
take place in the 60s, was to opt out for cremation and direct cremation.

389
00:28:15,348 --> 00:28:18,688
highlight & EP:
Cremation without a funeral. And so I think a lot of funeral directors thought,

390
00:28:18,848 --> 00:28:22,928
highlight & EP:
oh, this green burial idea might be something that we can be involved with.

391
00:28:23,048 --> 00:28:28,028
highlight & EP:
And of course, we wanted them to see that, but with new rules and a more openness.

392
00:28:28,248 --> 00:28:32,888
highlight & EP:
So we were very successful in getting our certified providers,

393
00:28:33,088 --> 00:28:40,608
highlight & EP:
for example, to put in their price list that a funeral could take place without embalming.

394
00:28:41,028 --> 00:28:44,788
highlight & EP:
Consumer advocates were trying to do that for years unsuccessfully.

395
00:28:44,968 --> 00:28:47,688
highlight & EP:
And we made great strides on that front.

396
00:28:48,108 --> 00:28:52,688
highlight & EP:
Yeah, that's amazing. And tell me, what made you leave the desert?

397
00:28:53,028 --> 00:28:58,448
highlight & EP:
You know, the desert? Yeah, what made you leave and come to Australia?

398
00:28:58,668 --> 00:29:02,728
highlight & EP:
Obviously, Juliet was here originally. She's from here.

399
00:29:03,108 --> 00:29:08,008
highlight & EP:
You know, a couple things. My parents had both passed away. Juliet's father

400
00:29:08,008 --> 00:29:10,508
highlight & EP:
had dementia, didn't have a long time to live.

401
00:29:10,868 --> 00:29:14,528
highlight & EP:
We had a model project in Santa Fe teed up.

402
00:29:15,268 --> 00:29:21,108
highlight & EP:
We'd been working on it for seven years where half of the proceeds from the

403
00:29:21,108 --> 00:29:27,968
highlight & EP:
interment, right, The cemetery sale would go into a pot of money to take down land on a large ranch.

404
00:29:28,208 --> 00:29:33,068
highlight & EP:
And we had a deal in place. And the partner, the conservation and the developer,

405
00:29:33,368 --> 00:29:34,888
highlight & EP:
couldn't make good on their word.

406
00:29:35,308 --> 00:29:38,688
highlight & EP:
Mainly, I think, when the real estate market turned. And we weren't going to

407
00:29:38,688 --> 00:29:40,328
highlight & EP:
be able to bring that about.

408
00:29:40,508 --> 00:29:44,068
highlight & EP:
We had a situation take place where someone had been promised the burial.

409
00:29:44,228 --> 00:29:48,148
highlight & EP:
And there was a cancellation the day before the funeral, which was one of the

410
00:29:48,148 --> 00:29:51,848
highlight & EP:
most awful experiences I'd ever been involved with. And we just realized,

411
00:29:52,028 --> 00:29:53,688
highlight & EP:
I think our work here is done.

412
00:29:54,268 --> 00:29:58,968
highlight & EP:
I started to probably be experiencing a bit of burnout.

413
00:29:59,228 --> 00:30:04,468
highlight & EP:
The funeral industry itself is really fragmented, but there were other people

414
00:30:04,468 --> 00:30:06,068
highlight & EP:
who I think resented the.

415
00:30:06,789 --> 00:30:11,769
highlight & EP:
The leadership position that the council had and felt their mantle had been usurped.

416
00:30:12,029 --> 00:30:17,289
highlight & EP:
That was challenging to deal with. And also, even though we were set up as a

417
00:30:17,289 --> 00:30:22,369
highlight & EP:
non-profit, many of the providers were for-profit operators.

418
00:30:22,369 --> 00:30:28,589
highlight & EP:
And so it took a lot of work to make sure that the trust provider,

419
00:30:28,969 --> 00:30:33,669
highlight & EP:
the council stayed strong and didn't get co-opted as a trade association.

420
00:30:33,989 --> 00:30:37,549
highlight & EP:
So there was internal tension that was very much

421
00:30:37,549 --> 00:30:40,829
highlight & EP:
always present and it got a little overwhelming I

422
00:30:40,829 --> 00:30:43,629
highlight & EP:
think toward the end of my work so I did that for

423
00:30:43,629 --> 00:30:49,489
highlight & EP:
2005 and we moved here in 2012 and quite frankly I was looking to kind of get

424
00:30:49,489 --> 00:30:54,289
highlight & EP:
out of the field I keep getting dragged back into it but I thought it was time

425
00:30:54,289 --> 00:30:59,769
highlight & EP:
to explore doing something else and my son at the time was eight and we had

426
00:30:59,769 --> 00:31:02,409
highlight & EP:
our health and it just seemed like the time to make the move.

427
00:31:02,809 --> 00:31:08,429
highlight & EP:
Yeah, that totally makes sense. And so you came to Australia and then what?

428
00:31:08,689 --> 00:31:14,789
highlight & EP:
Well, I didn't realize it at the time, but what was going on for me was I had

429
00:31:14,789 --> 00:31:20,129
highlight & EP:
this inability to access social capital that I had always had in the States.

430
00:31:20,329 --> 00:31:25,069
highlight & EP:
So I think this is a function of how big cities in the US work.

431
00:31:25,329 --> 00:31:29,029
highlight & EP:
If you move to a place like New York, San Francisco, LA, like I did.

432
00:31:29,489 --> 00:31:30,929
highlight & EP:
People move from all over the world.

433
00:31:31,089 --> 00:31:34,969
highlight & EP:
And so they're really good about opening up their professional and social networks.

434
00:31:35,389 --> 00:31:40,049
highlight & EP:
It's pretty easy to get things done. When you move to a city like Melbourne,

435
00:31:40,349 --> 00:31:45,369
highlight & EP:
I discovered where many people who live here have lived here for a long time.

436
00:31:45,669 --> 00:31:49,909
highlight & EP:
There's less interest, I think, on the part of those folks to open up their networks.

437
00:31:50,029 --> 00:31:54,509
highlight & EP:
So I was having a hard time accessing that social capital, as it's called,

438
00:31:54,709 --> 00:31:58,089
highlight & EP:
which is where we find meaningful relationships.

439
00:31:58,369 --> 00:32:01,469
highlight & EP:
It's where we find work. We hear about employment opportunities.

440
00:32:01,689 --> 00:32:05,609
highlight & EP:
And for the first time in my life, really, I was having a difficult time meeting

441
00:32:05,609 --> 00:32:08,029
highlight & EP:
good friends and finding employment.

442
00:32:08,849 --> 00:32:13,389
highlight & EP:
And after about five years, I thought I did a little bit of consultancy work

443
00:32:13,389 --> 00:32:19,949
highlight & EP:
and I thought about going back into pastoral care and discovered it was rather hard to do without,

444
00:32:20,229 --> 00:32:25,129
highlight & EP:
again, having sort of either theological qualifications or faith community endorsement.

445
00:32:25,509 --> 00:32:31,209
highlight & EP:
And so I had an idea to bring forward a model that the UK humanists had developed

446
00:32:31,209 --> 00:32:36,349
highlight & EP:
to support mostly in hospitals, people who didn't identify as religious,

447
00:32:36,729 --> 00:32:41,509
highlight & EP:
with the same sort of subclinical, social, emotional, existential care, right?

448
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:47,020
highlight & EP:
And as I said, that was threatening to some entities here. And I realized that

449
00:32:47,020 --> 00:32:49,100
highlight & EP:
was not my Everest to fight.

450
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:54,560
highlight & EP:
And I thought I could just take on that challenge directly, or we could focus on doing the work.

451
00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:57,380
highlight & EP:
And I felt really called to do the work.

452
00:32:57,580 --> 00:33:00,500
highlight & EP:
And there was this tremendous opportunity at the community level,

453
00:33:00,660 --> 00:33:05,200
highlight & EP:
because many healthcare professionals were starting to think about bringing

454
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,420
highlight & EP:
forward a concept that had taken off in the UK called social prescribing,

455
00:33:09,420 --> 00:33:15,500
highlight & EP:
where mostly GPs would refer patients to the community for support for non-medical

456
00:33:15,500 --> 00:33:17,360
highlight & EP:
issues like social isolation and loneliness.

457
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:23,460
highlight & EP:
And I realized, wow, you really need to know who is on the front line and people

458
00:33:23,460 --> 00:33:28,580
highlight & EP:
need to be vetted and upskilled and supported properly to do that work,

459
00:33:28,700 --> 00:33:31,520
highlight & EP:
especially if they're going to get referrals from healthcare providers.

460
00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:37,880
highlight & EP:
So we put together Social Health Australia in a similar way to the council to

461
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:44,100
highlight & EP:
engage this other sector and to be a trust provider of sorts to show that, you know,

462
00:33:44,220 --> 00:33:48,200
highlight & EP:
we could recruit volunteers from all walks of life who are capable of doing

463
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,500
highlight & EP:
this work and doing it safely.

464
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,640
highlight & EP:
But we didn't need another credentialing framework. We didn't need another cert

465
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,360
highlight & EP:
for we wanted this to be the work of the people.

466
00:33:57,580 --> 00:34:01,960
highlight & EP:
You know, we've been very adamant about that. And our patriot Hugh McKay has

467
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,620
highlight & EP:
helped us really stick to that.

468
00:34:04,900 --> 00:34:09,020
highlight & EP:
You know, especially I think in Australia, there's this tendency to identify

469
00:34:09,020 --> 00:34:13,880
highlight & EP:
a problem and then there's a portfolio administer and there's sort of a top down approach.

470
00:34:14,060 --> 00:34:17,940
highlight & EP:
But if we're going to get out of this loneliness epidemic and mental health crisis,

471
00:34:18,180 --> 00:34:22,700
highlight & EP:
we need a bottom up social movement, we need more people doing this work and

472
00:34:22,700 --> 00:34:27,700
highlight & EP:
taking it on and not doing it because we think it's another practitioner class

473
00:34:27,700 --> 00:34:29,180
highlight & EP:
that needs to come to the fore.

474
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,400
highlight & EP:
You know, we just think this is what we evolved to do for one another.

475
00:34:32,580 --> 00:34:37,920
highlight & EP:
And we've been outsourcing it to clinical psychs and religious professionals and others. And really.

476
00:34:38,820 --> 00:34:44,380
highlight & EP:
It's about finding a way to reclaim those instincts and learn again how to show

477
00:34:44,380 --> 00:34:47,480
highlight & EP:
up during moments of great difficulty.

478
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:55,180
highlight & EP:
What I see is it's quite challenging for organizations that try and do the work

479
00:34:55,180 --> 00:35:00,240
highlight & EP:
and also do the advocacy and the fundraising at the same time.

480
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,840
highlight & EP:
Is that a challenge that you've come across? I always say I think we have an

481
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:09,700
highlight & EP:
excellent service model and a lousy business model because there's a tremendous

482
00:35:09,700 --> 00:35:15,460
highlight & EP:
disadvantage that smaller charities like ours were a volunteer-led charity.

483
00:35:16,060 --> 00:35:20,820
highlight & EP:
So that allows us to be really nimble and we don't get into a situation where

484
00:35:20,820 --> 00:35:25,180
highlight & EP:
some organizations, because they have a lot of overhead, they're paying salaries,

485
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:30,180
highlight & EP:
they start thinking about what they need to do to keep the doors open and that becomes paramount.

486
00:35:30,180 --> 00:35:35,760
highlight & EP:
Whereas with our work, we sort of build up our capacity on the fly.

487
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,180
highlight & EP:
So when we apply for a grant from the Lord Mayor's Charitable Foundation,

488
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:46,260
highlight & EP:
we build in project management and training and support and supervision fees into that.

489
00:35:46,260 --> 00:35:50,500
highlight & EP:
But funders particularly philanthropics don't

490
00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:53,580
highlight & EP:
like giving large grants to small organizations that

491
00:35:53,580 --> 00:35:56,900
highlight & EP:
don't have capacity professional capacity

492
00:35:56,900 --> 00:35:59,800
highlight & EP:
in place i think there's a bias against thinking

493
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,920
highlight & EP:
that because people are working in a pro bono or volunteer basis they may not

494
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:09,540
highlight & EP:
have the skills or commitment to do the work so it is really challenging but

495
00:36:09,540 --> 00:36:13,820
highlight & EP:
we're trying to work with other community-based organizations that are in the

496
00:36:13,820 --> 00:36:18,400
highlight & EP:
same boat and share and leverage resources, you know,

497
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:23,880
highlight & EP:
so that we don't all have to be burdened by the issues around governance and fundraising.

498
00:36:24,780 --> 00:36:28,180
highlight & EP:
There's a lot that goes on. I remember a couple of years ago,

499
00:36:28,340 --> 00:36:33,980
highlight & EP:
the Australian government put out a paper talking about the problem of how many

500
00:36:33,980 --> 00:36:38,040
highlight & EP:
thousands of small charities there are in Australia, you know, from their standpoint,

501
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,960
highlight & EP:
you know, an oversight through that lens, It's really troubling,

502
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:42,180
highlight & EP:
but I'm thinking, God, it's.

503
00:36:43,111 --> 00:36:48,131
highlight & EP:
Wouldn't it be great if more people wanted to start little entities to do good in the world, right?

504
00:36:48,511 --> 00:36:54,711
highlight & EP:
But we need to not burden people as much and we need to figure out ways of making

505
00:36:54,711 --> 00:36:56,831
highlight & EP:
this work easier to be done.

506
00:36:57,191 --> 00:37:02,631
highlight & EP:
So it is really difficult to exist as a startup, small charity in Australia.

507
00:37:02,631 --> 00:37:07,971
highlight & EP:
But I'm really glad that we've been able to figure out a way to keep the lights on.

508
00:37:08,091 --> 00:37:12,731
highlight & EP:
So we're doing that right now. Our latest thinking is that we're becoming sort

509
00:37:12,731 --> 00:37:17,471
highlight & EP:
of a community-based incubator, and we've had three projects come to us lately

510
00:37:17,471 --> 00:37:18,811
highlight & EP:
where people had an idea.

511
00:37:19,251 --> 00:37:22,371
highlight & EP:
They didn't want to go through what would be required.

512
00:37:22,591 --> 00:37:26,191
highlight & EP:
Well, getting DGR status, for example, deductible gift recipient status,

513
00:37:26,191 --> 00:37:29,371
highlight & EP:
can take years to get. There's no guarantee you're going to get it.

514
00:37:29,791 --> 00:37:33,731
highlight & EP:
So for an entity that has that and public benevolent institution status,

515
00:37:34,031 --> 00:37:39,111
highlight & EP:
we can bring in entities and let people try ideas. It's the other reason,

516
00:37:39,311 --> 00:37:42,311
highlight & EP:
you know, there's a big problem, I think, in this social sector.

517
00:37:42,551 --> 00:37:47,271
highlight & EP:
There's not a lot of innovation because it's hard to play around in the sandbox.

518
00:37:47,591 --> 00:37:52,231
highlight & EP:
You know, you need to be able to make some mistakes and run some experiments.

519
00:37:52,671 --> 00:37:56,511
highlight & EP:
And the way things are set up right now, that really can't happen.

520
00:37:56,671 --> 00:38:02,291
highlight & EP:
So we're hoping to get projects off the ground and provide supports and provide,

521
00:38:02,511 --> 00:38:06,371
highlight & EP:
you know, serve as sort of a fiscal intermediary sponsor so people can get grants.

522
00:38:06,371 --> 00:38:11,831
highlight & EP:
And then you know it also connect with other people in the field and experience

523
00:38:11,831 --> 00:38:16,551
highlight & EP:
some collegiality because the work's difficult enough but it's much more difficult

524
00:38:16,551 --> 00:38:20,951
highlight & EP:
when you feel like you're doing it you know alone so that's going to be a big

525
00:38:20,951 --> 00:38:24,471
highlight & EP:
push for us trying to weave with other enemies working in this space.

526
00:38:25,296 --> 00:38:30,296
highlight & EP:
Yeah, yeah. And especially when it comes to just the resources and the,

527
00:38:30,416 --> 00:38:34,696
highlight & EP:
you know, those sorts of things is just really hard, as you were saying,

528
00:38:34,956 --> 00:38:36,176
highlight & EP:
you know, on an ongoing basis.

529
00:38:36,576 --> 00:38:41,676
highlight & EP:
Yeah. So tell me some of the other challenges that you've sort of faced in relation

530
00:38:41,676 --> 00:38:45,836
highlight & EP:
to advocating for socially responsible end of life.

531
00:38:46,056 --> 00:38:50,356
highlight & EP:
What are some of the hurdles that you've had to try and straddle there,

532
00:38:50,436 --> 00:38:55,656
highlight & EP:
Joe? Well, I discovered that in Australia, I find Australians to be very compliant.

533
00:38:55,876 --> 00:38:59,396
highlight & EP:
And I think many I've been told by Zenith Farago many years ago,

534
00:38:59,516 --> 00:39:02,936
highlight & EP:
she said Australians tend to think that they're all in some sort of funeral

535
00:39:02,936 --> 00:39:07,136
highlight & EP:
precinct that they have to, you know, and if there's a Tobin Brothers nearby,

536
00:39:07,396 --> 00:39:08,316
highlight & EP:
that's where they have to go.

537
00:39:08,316 --> 00:39:13,696
highlight & EP:
I think that one of the things that I found challenging, but I really enjoy

538
00:39:13,696 --> 00:39:16,196
highlight & EP:
working in this area, it's getting

539
00:39:16,196 --> 00:39:19,576
highlight & EP:
people to understand that they have all sorts of rights and options.

540
00:39:19,876 --> 00:39:23,336
highlight & EP:
And I always say, I think every good funeral director should say,

541
00:39:23,376 --> 00:39:26,076
highlight & EP:
what would you like to do and what would you like to have us do?

542
00:39:26,196 --> 00:39:27,696
highlight & EP:
And here are your options.

543
00:39:27,896 --> 00:39:31,656
highlight & EP:
And when you really do that, you encourage, you empower people,

544
00:39:31,836 --> 00:39:36,316
highlight & EP:
you allow them to experience some agency that I think is really healthy for

545
00:39:36,316 --> 00:39:37,716
highlight & EP:
the grieving process. us.

546
00:39:37,896 --> 00:39:42,776
highlight & EP:
When you take the body away and force people to play catch up and make them

547
00:39:42,776 --> 00:39:46,616
highlight & EP:
feel disempowered, I think grief is much more painful.

548
00:39:47,036 --> 00:39:53,016
highlight & EP:
So I think one of the challenges has been, and this is just mostly in our personal life,

549
00:39:53,196 --> 00:39:58,636
highlight & EP:
getting people to open up to possibilities and considering dressing a body or

550
00:39:58,636 --> 00:40:03,376
highlight & EP:
being more involved with the service than they had been, or knowing that There's

551
00:40:03,376 --> 00:40:05,676
highlight & EP:
a number of ways that they can, you know.

552
00:40:06,416 --> 00:40:10,196
highlight & EP:
Honor a loved one and be involved that they might not have considered.

553
00:40:10,416 --> 00:40:13,516
highlight & EP:
The industry operates the same way.

554
00:40:13,616 --> 00:40:19,156
highlight & EP:
My feeling is there's a lack of collegiality because at the end of the day,

555
00:40:19,476 --> 00:40:22,096
highlight & EP:
funeral service operators are competing with one another.

556
00:40:22,356 --> 00:40:26,196
highlight & EP:
So they've had difficulty coming together for a bigger purpose.

557
00:40:26,196 --> 00:40:30,476
highlight & EP:
But I think, and I haven't really been all that involved with this other than

558
00:40:30,476 --> 00:40:33,276
highlight & EP:
with some of the bereavement companioning work that we've done,

559
00:40:33,416 --> 00:40:38,636
highlight & EP:
but I think that would be also quite challenging as it was in the States.

560
00:40:38,636 --> 00:40:42,016
highlight & EP:
And I don't know if that'll change. I think the other issue,

561
00:40:42,196 --> 00:40:47,496
highlight & EP:
quite frankly, that has been really difficult to deal with is that cemeteries

562
00:40:47,496 --> 00:40:51,916
highlight & EP:
in most states cannot be privately owned, which is not such a bad thing.

563
00:40:52,056 --> 00:40:57,896
highlight & EP:
But in a place like Victoria, you have to have a cemetery trust that's the owner and operator of record.

564
00:40:58,496 --> 00:41:02,456
highlight & EP:
And they're kind of constrained. You know, it's difficult for them.

565
00:41:02,676 --> 00:41:05,996
highlight & EP:
They have to cater to the needs of all the communities. So when you go to a

566
00:41:05,996 --> 00:41:07,636
highlight & EP:
typical cemetery trust,

567
00:41:07,836 --> 00:41:12,036
highlight & EP:
a large cemetery trust, you see a section that's catering for the Greek Orthodox

568
00:41:12,036 --> 00:41:16,136
highlight & EP:
community and over here Chinese Buddhists and maybe there's a little section

569
00:41:16,136 --> 00:41:20,316
highlight & EP:
for eco-conscious folks and you get those little siloed areas.

570
00:41:21,397 --> 00:41:25,237
highlight & EP:
It's one of the reasons there's not a standalone conservation burial ground,

571
00:41:25,337 --> 00:41:27,097
highlight & EP:
for example, that we see in the States.

572
00:41:27,097 --> 00:41:31,557
highlight & EP:
And I hope that's going to change, but it's a tricky proposition because of

573
00:41:31,557 --> 00:41:36,477
highlight & EP:
the regulatory landscape. But hopefully, you know, we'll be seeing some change in that area.

574
00:41:36,737 --> 00:41:40,917
highlight & EP:
And when you say standalone conservation burial ground, what does that mean?

575
00:41:41,477 --> 00:41:46,217
highlight & EP:
Yeah, so conservation burial is a term I coined years ago, and we developed

576
00:41:46,217 --> 00:41:51,637
highlight & EP:
standards for this in the States. And it meant in the US, there's something

577
00:41:51,637 --> 00:41:56,137
highlight & EP:
called a conservation easement, similar to a conservation covenant in Australia.

578
00:41:56,197 --> 00:41:58,357
highlight & EP:
And there's actually tax benefits

579
00:41:58,357 --> 00:42:03,537
highlight & EP:
that accrue to a person who has land who extinguishes development rights.

580
00:42:03,537 --> 00:42:07,877
highlight & EP:
So if you have land, 40 acres, and you decide, you tell the government you're

581
00:42:07,877 --> 00:42:11,797
highlight & EP:
not going to do any development on that land and you're going to keep it as

582
00:42:11,797 --> 00:42:17,897
highlight & EP:
protected habitat, the government will allow you to deduct that devaluation over a number of years.

583
00:42:18,377 --> 00:42:22,817
highlight & EP:
It's been a really effective conservation tool. And it requires that a land

584
00:42:22,817 --> 00:42:24,917
highlight & EP:
trust do annual monitoring and

585
00:42:24,917 --> 00:42:29,757
highlight & EP:
reporting to make sure that whatever your promise has been made is upheld.

586
00:42:29,757 --> 00:42:37,017
highlight & EP:
So we decided, since that was already in place, to use that vehicle to oversee

587
00:42:37,017 --> 00:42:41,397
highlight & EP:
conservation burial grounds that would agree to, for example.

588
00:42:41,957 --> 00:42:47,237
highlight & EP:
Never allow for burial on any part of the land where it might degrade the local

589
00:42:47,237 --> 00:42:54,037
highlight & EP:
ecosystem and where possible use burial in areas that might facilitate ecological restoration.

590
00:42:54,037 --> 00:42:58,857
highlight & EP:
So it might impact the zones where land would be buried or bodies would be buried.

591
00:42:58,997 --> 00:43:02,777
highlight & EP:
It might impact what kind of trees could be planted.

592
00:43:03,037 --> 00:43:09,637
highlight & EP:
It would basically be a guide roadmap for how the stewardship of that natural area would go.

593
00:43:09,797 --> 00:43:14,777
highlight & EP:
And it has allowed for land trusts to then get involved with cemetery operators

594
00:43:14,777 --> 00:43:20,017
highlight & EP:
to come together and to basically create these little nature preserves that

595
00:43:20,017 --> 00:43:23,317
highlight & EP:
have bodies, usually with very discrete markers.

596
00:43:23,317 --> 00:43:26,117
highlight & EP:
But at the end of the day when they're

597
00:43:26,117 --> 00:43:29,097
highlight & EP:
all filled up you're going to have a natural area that's

598
00:43:29,097 --> 00:43:32,377
highlight & EP:
protected in perpetuity and a fund you

599
00:43:32,377 --> 00:43:35,137
highlight & EP:
know through the funding of this conservation easement that can

600
00:43:35,137 --> 00:43:38,717
highlight & EP:
do ongoing monitoring and reporting forever so

601
00:43:38,717 --> 00:43:41,937
highlight & EP:
that's a really neat idea that really hasn't

602
00:43:41,937 --> 00:43:46,037
highlight & EP:
taken hold here i think there's a natural burial ground i'm told in new south

603
00:43:46,037 --> 00:43:51,017
highlight & EP:
wales it's about to open but it's tricky i've always felt like the opportunity

604
00:43:51,017 --> 00:43:56,717
highlight & EP:
lied where someone that has the land would like a conservation entity would

605
00:43:56,717 --> 00:43:59,497
highlight & EP:
be interested in allowing for internment rights,

606
00:43:59,817 --> 00:44:02,157
highlight & EP:
limited internment rights and exchange.

607
00:44:02,577 --> 00:44:07,517
highlight & EP:
They got money to do, you know, long-term stewardship. That was the concept

608
00:44:07,517 --> 00:44:12,017
highlight & EP:
that we're building on in the States. But as I said, it hasn't really taken

609
00:44:12,017 --> 00:44:17,177
highlight & EP:
off as of yet in Australia, but I I'm sure there will be a standalone facility.

610
00:44:17,974 --> 00:44:22,134
highlight & EP:
That will eventually do that. Many is what I would predict, but we're just not there yet.

611
00:44:22,334 --> 00:44:23,674
highlight & EP:
It's interesting because when

612
00:44:23,674 --> 00:44:28,454
highlight & EP:
I was in the UK last year, it was something that they do very, very well.

613
00:44:28,634 --> 00:44:36,914
highlight & EP:
And I saw an organic farm that was actually using a natural burial ground as

614
00:44:36,914 --> 00:44:43,194
highlight & EP:
a way in which to revegetate between two natural woodlands that were remnant

615
00:44:43,194 --> 00:44:44,934
highlight & EP:
woodlands that were there and I just thought.

616
00:44:45,394 --> 00:44:49,214
highlight & EP:
Wow, you know, my background's in conservation and land management and I'm just

617
00:44:49,214 --> 00:44:51,694
highlight & EP:
like, I love this, you know, this is fantastic.

618
00:44:52,074 --> 00:44:57,174
highlight & EP:
You know, if it was up to me, I think, you know, bio corridors and natural burial

619
00:44:57,174 --> 00:45:03,114
highlight & EP:
grounds should naturally go just, you know, together with the beehive in amongst it, you know.

620
00:45:03,334 --> 00:45:06,574
highlight & EP:
Yeah, you know, I think we should see more of it. But yeah, they seem to do

621
00:45:06,574 --> 00:45:11,234
highlight & EP:
it very well over there and I am surprised that it hasn't taken off here because

622
00:45:11,234 --> 00:45:14,014
highlight & EP:
it's just such a great concept.

623
00:45:14,394 --> 00:45:18,934
highlight & EP:
Yeah, I think if private ownership was allowed, that certainly,

624
00:45:19,234 --> 00:45:25,154
highlight & EP:
and I think that is the case in New South Wales, that would certainly make it a bit easier.

625
00:45:25,374 --> 00:45:30,854
highlight & EP:
But there's other issues and complications because you have to be able to finance these facilities.

626
00:45:31,154 --> 00:45:35,174
highlight & EP:
And what is the market for eco-friendly internment?

627
00:45:35,314 --> 00:45:38,494
highlight & EP:
It's a relatively new concept, so it's difficult

628
00:45:38,494 --> 00:45:41,354
highlight & EP:
for people to finance that's been the case in

629
00:45:41,354 --> 00:45:44,114
highlight & EP:
the states and it's always been the case for cemeteries no

630
00:45:44,114 --> 00:45:47,194
highlight & EP:
one's able to go and get a bank loan on a cemetery because

631
00:45:47,194 --> 00:45:51,574
highlight & EP:
you can't foreclose on a cemetery and make it a car dealership so banks have

632
00:45:51,574 --> 00:45:57,094
highlight & EP:
always stayed away from those projects as lenders so people have to find some

633
00:45:57,094 --> 00:46:02,214
highlight & EP:
creative funding source i mean to me the real opportunity is to find you know

634
00:46:02,214 --> 00:46:06,274
highlight & EP:
and i had conversations early on with bush heritage and entities like that,

635
00:46:06,414 --> 00:46:08,774
highlight & EP:
some entity like that that could say, all right,

636
00:46:08,994 --> 00:46:15,054
highlight & EP:
we've got probably members and donors who would really like this idea. Let's test it out.

637
00:46:15,294 --> 00:46:22,794
highlight & EP:
They have to find an operator that has a compatible ethic and know that they're in it long term.

638
00:46:22,934 --> 00:46:26,394
highlight & EP:
That's the other thing. When you start a cemetery, it's not like you can do

639
00:46:26,394 --> 00:46:28,354
highlight & EP:
it for a few years and get out if you want.

640
00:46:28,474 --> 00:46:32,954
highlight & EP:
You have to make a lifelong commitment to that. And that scares off a lot of

641
00:46:32,954 --> 00:46:35,054
highlight & EP:
people, especially conservation groups.

642
00:46:35,274 --> 00:46:39,794
highlight & EP:
Yeah, it's very challenging, isn't it? And especially given the fact that.

643
00:46:40,545 --> 00:46:43,345
highlight & EP:
It's something that we all experience at the end of the day,

644
00:46:43,565 --> 00:46:47,925
highlight & EP:
you know, and I'm just surprised that, I don't know, we just haven't worked

645
00:46:47,925 --> 00:46:52,885
highlight & EP:
out better systems or it really does still boggle my mind a little bit, Joe.

646
00:46:52,885 --> 00:46:58,025
highlight & EP:
Yeah, it's, you know, when I first got involved with the idea,

647
00:46:58,265 --> 00:47:02,025
highlight & EP:
I got really excited about it as a restoration and conservation tool.

648
00:47:02,285 --> 00:47:06,365
highlight & EP:
And quite frankly, there's some of that going on on a small scale.

649
00:47:06,765 --> 00:47:13,525
highlight & EP:
But psychologically, spiritually for people, you know, being able to find solace

650
00:47:13,525 --> 00:47:19,945
highlight & EP:
in a landscape like that, you know, is really powerful. I think it reduces death anxiety.

651
00:47:20,265 --> 00:47:25,925
highlight & EP:
You know, you hear this by people that cease, you know, services in these woodland

652
00:47:25,925 --> 00:47:28,085
highlight & EP:
natural conservation burial grounds.

653
00:47:28,225 --> 00:47:31,965
highlight & EP:
They're also visited much more than conventional cemeteries.

654
00:47:32,305 --> 00:47:37,345
highlight & EP:
Many people don't understand that. Except for some ethnic communities,

655
00:47:37,725 --> 00:47:40,725
highlight & EP:
visitation rarely takes place after the first year.

656
00:47:40,945 --> 00:47:46,865
highlight & EP:
And think about all the watering and the mowing and the CO2 that goes in the atmosphere.

657
00:47:47,165 --> 00:47:52,605
highlight & EP:
I mean, I think we should be rewilding all of our conventional cemeteries. What are we doing?

658
00:47:52,945 --> 00:47:56,825
highlight & EP:
You know, that's another idea that should catch on.

659
00:47:56,825 --> 00:48:00,085
highlight & EP:
Yeah and the southern metropolitan

660
00:48:00,085 --> 00:48:03,225
highlight & EP:
cemeteries trust has recently earlier this

661
00:48:03,225 --> 00:48:06,865
highlight & EP:
year opened or unveiled their rewilding

662
00:48:06,865 --> 00:48:12,705
highlight & EP:
of the native species in melbourne cemetery and yeah that was amazing because

663
00:48:12,705 --> 00:48:16,585
highlight & EP:
that's exactly what they've done in some of the old part is planted you know

664
00:48:16,585 --> 00:48:20,365
highlight & EP:
native species and just let them flower and seed and it's such a better way

665
00:48:20,365 --> 00:48:24,745
highlight & EP:
in which to do it they've been doing it with golf courses for a number of years,

666
00:48:24,985 --> 00:48:26,365
highlight & EP:
at least in the US, I know.

667
00:48:26,925 --> 00:48:31,665
highlight & EP:
It's a funny thing. I think there should be sensitivity about not impacting

668
00:48:31,665 --> 00:48:35,385
highlight & EP:
families who were sold one thing aesthetically.

669
00:48:35,665 --> 00:48:43,445
highlight & EP:
But really, I think climate change should be a more overriding aim here, our concern.

670
00:48:43,765 --> 00:48:48,325
highlight & EP:
And I think we really need to really look at how we keep up these facilities.

671
00:48:48,625 --> 00:48:53,325
highlight & EP:
And they're way too energy intensive. It just doesn't make sense to me.

672
00:48:53,505 --> 00:48:56,145
highlight & EP:
I hope rewilding happens too.

673
00:48:56,345 --> 00:49:00,285
highlight & EP:
So some combination of that, I think that might open the door.

674
00:49:00,445 --> 00:49:05,785
highlight & EP:
If you did rewilding properly, you'd be making restoration burial grounds,

675
00:49:05,925 --> 00:49:08,645
highlight & EP:
conservation burial grounds. I mean, that's what would happen naturally.

676
00:49:09,245 --> 00:49:14,785
highlight & EP:
There's also the potential for working with indigenous communities and doing burial on country.

677
00:49:14,985 --> 00:49:18,605
highlight & EP:
There's a lot of cool things that could come about for sure. That's so true.

678
00:49:18,965 --> 00:49:25,325
highlight & EP:
And tell me, with your role and what you've seen in your various experiences,

679
00:49:25,325 --> 00:49:32,605
highlight & EP:
you seem to have always been in the end-of-life space, regardless of what role you've had. What has...

680
00:49:33,324 --> 00:49:38,684
highlight & EP:
Advice or suggestions can you give to people to support someone who's going

681
00:49:38,684 --> 00:49:41,204
highlight & EP:
through the grieving process or the end-of-life process?

682
00:49:41,484 --> 00:49:48,144
highlight & EP:
I don't know if it's because we've seen too many bad movies or TV shows or have

683
00:49:48,144 --> 00:49:54,104
highlight & EP:
been made to feel that being there, showing up for grief is above our pay grade.

684
00:49:55,644 --> 00:50:00,304
highlight & EP:
I think a lot of people genuinely are afraid to show up because they feel like

685
00:50:00,304 --> 00:50:01,544
highlight & EP:
they may say the wrong thing.

686
00:50:01,724 --> 00:50:05,924
highlight & EP:
What people need to understand is that they don't have to say anything.

687
00:50:06,044 --> 00:50:07,644
highlight & EP:
They just have to be present.

688
00:50:07,824 --> 00:50:12,444
highlight & EP:
And that's with grief and loss support. There's a man, a hero of mine in the

689
00:50:12,444 --> 00:50:19,004
highlight & EP:
States by the name of Parker Palmer, who tells this story about he became a Quaker late in life.

690
00:50:19,524 --> 00:50:24,284
highlight & EP:
And he felt like a bit of a fraud. Professionally, he was sort of making a name

691
00:50:24,284 --> 00:50:28,124
highlight & EP:
for himself in the well-being space, but he was also dealing with depression.

692
00:50:28,884 --> 00:50:34,044
highlight & EP:
And he tells a story about a guy from his church that would come over once a

693
00:50:34,044 --> 00:50:39,184
highlight & EP:
week for a couple of months when he was really in a bad way and basically just hold his foot.

694
00:50:40,064 --> 00:50:46,844
highlight & EP:
Didn't say a word, but he gave him hope that when he came around the other side, he would be there.

695
00:50:46,984 --> 00:50:51,224
highlight & EP:
And that guy didn't have to say anything. And that's what we really train people to do.

696
00:50:51,364 --> 00:50:54,244
highlight & EP:
They don't have to really worry because if you're not going in

697
00:50:54,244 --> 00:50:57,224
highlight & EP:
there to fix or cheer up or if you're

698
00:50:57,224 --> 00:51:00,884
highlight & EP:
going in there to extend kindness you

699
00:51:00,884 --> 00:51:04,104
highlight & EP:
just have to be there you know less really is

700
00:51:04,104 --> 00:51:08,924
highlight & EP:
more and that's what i would encourage people to do there are some great tools

701
00:51:08,924 --> 00:51:14,464
highlight & EP:
we're lucky we have some wonderful people working in this space probably know

702
00:51:14,464 --> 00:51:20,484
highlight & EP:
carrie noonan at the death literacy institute she did a wonderful workshop for

703
00:51:20,484 --> 00:51:22,744
highlight & EP:
our companions showing up for grief,

704
00:51:22,964 --> 00:51:27,324
highlight & EP:
and I still sometimes show her slides to people, helping people.

705
00:51:27,484 --> 00:51:30,504
highlight & EP:
You know, you don't need to understand all the theoretical frameworks.

706
00:51:30,504 --> 00:51:36,324
highlight & EP:
You just need to know that if people can experience connection during those

707
00:51:36,324 --> 00:51:39,024
highlight & EP:
times, and they know that what they're going through,

708
00:51:39,204 --> 00:51:43,264
highlight & EP:
they're not going through alone, that can make all the difference in the world.

709
00:51:43,424 --> 00:51:49,464
highlight & EP:
So we have to get away from thinking that it's going to require a cert for any level of expertise.

710
00:51:49,644 --> 00:51:55,024
highlight & EP:
It's just really, it's just common humanity that I think is what's going to

711
00:51:55,024 --> 00:51:58,044
highlight & EP:
allow people to do what they need to do in those times.

712
00:51:58,284 --> 00:52:05,124
highlight & EP:
And I think a mutual friend of ours once explained to me that she practices shut uppiness.

713
00:52:05,704 --> 00:52:12,604
highlight & EP:
And I love that term. And I think it's such a beautiful thing to practice is

714
00:52:12,604 --> 00:52:18,004
highlight & EP:
to not to feel like you were saying that we have to go in there and fix everything.

715
00:52:18,004 --> 00:52:21,124
highlight & EP:
Because I think that that's something that we feel compelled to do.

716
00:52:22,287 --> 00:52:28,107
highlight & EP:
Just being there and whether it's holding someone's foot or practicing shut-up-edness.

717
00:52:28,327 --> 00:52:34,047
highlight & EP:
It's quite profound what that can do because the person has a chance to feel

718
00:52:34,047 --> 00:52:40,267
highlight & EP:
witnessed and they don't have to feel like some people do talking to a psychiatrist

719
00:52:40,267 --> 00:52:42,687
highlight & EP:
or psychologist that they're weak and disordered.

720
00:52:42,807 --> 00:52:48,327
highlight & EP:
And I think of a man I supported who really was reluctant to be vulnerable and

721
00:52:48,327 --> 00:52:54,127
highlight & EP:
open with his clinicians. But with me, he learned to do that and he was comfortable.

722
00:52:54,447 --> 00:52:57,307
highlight & EP:
It really doesn't take all that much.

723
00:52:57,647 --> 00:53:04,387
highlight & EP:
In fact, when we started social health, we were thinking of having this credentialing

724
00:53:04,387 --> 00:53:06,267
highlight & EP:
framework and certification program.

725
00:53:06,447 --> 00:53:10,127
highlight & EP:
And it was actually Hugh McKay that really taught us to just sort of dumb it

726
00:53:10,127 --> 00:53:14,547
highlight & EP:
down a bit and not make too big of a deal of what we're really trying to do.

727
00:53:15,147 --> 00:53:19,767
highlight & EP:
Yes, we have to vet people and we have to support people. and there's secondary

728
00:53:19,767 --> 00:53:24,647
highlight & EP:
traumatic stress that, you know, those impacts are real and have to be mitigated.

729
00:53:24,847 --> 00:53:28,287
highlight & EP:
You have to give people an opportunity to debrief.

730
00:53:28,907 --> 00:53:33,867
highlight & EP:
But it really doesn't require a big competency. It's really more of a commitment

731
00:53:33,867 --> 00:53:38,727
highlight & EP:
that a person has to make to just showing up in a person's life and not being afraid.

732
00:53:38,927 --> 00:53:42,467
highlight & EP:
And I think when we learn to do it in one area, it's easier to do it,

733
00:53:42,567 --> 00:53:46,747
highlight & EP:
you know, when we see someone suffering in some other area, and it's easier

734
00:53:46,747 --> 00:53:50,407
highlight & EP:
to receive that same support, you know, from someone else.

735
00:53:50,607 --> 00:53:57,307
highlight & EP:
What do you think you would say would be the strengths of us adopting or expanding,

736
00:53:57,307 --> 00:54:01,847
highlight & EP:
you know, a social model of well-being in the community?

737
00:54:01,927 --> 00:54:06,067
highlight & EP:
What do you see as the qualities that you see through the activities that you're

738
00:54:06,067 --> 00:54:07,687
highlight & EP:
running through Social Health Australia?

739
00:54:07,947 --> 00:54:12,067
highlight & EP:
Like what improvements, what are the benefits that society gets out of the sort

740
00:54:12,067 --> 00:54:13,447
highlight & EP:
of work that you're doing, Joe?

741
00:54:13,827 --> 00:54:19,847
highlight & EP:
Right. Well, as I said, we're not going to get out of the loneliness and epidemic

742
00:54:19,847 --> 00:54:24,587
highlight & EP:
and mental health crisis by just hiring more clinical psychs and the medical

743
00:54:24,587 --> 00:54:26,187
highlight & EP:
profession has figured that out.

744
00:54:26,467 --> 00:54:31,707
highlight & EP:
The benefits are that it's enormously cost effective, first of all,

745
00:54:31,827 --> 00:54:38,127
highlight & EP:
because, you know, many people, as I said, are turning to clinicians because that's all they have.

746
00:54:38,127 --> 00:54:40,807
highlight & EP:
They don't have neighbors, they may not have faith communities,

747
00:54:41,107 --> 00:54:45,007
highlight & EP:
they don't have families that they can turn to, so they.

748
00:54:45,916 --> 00:54:48,956
highlight & EP:
They go or they think they're going to be able to get in.

749
00:54:49,196 --> 00:54:53,076
highlight & EP:
If we could take on this work for ourselves and return,

750
00:54:53,436 --> 00:55:00,376
highlight & EP:
you know, in some way to a world where we knew we could rely on each other and

751
00:55:00,376 --> 00:55:01,876
highlight & EP:
we would be there for each other,

752
00:55:02,136 --> 00:55:09,836
highlight & EP:
you know, there's a great deal of evidence that loneliness is associated with all sorts of ailments,

753
00:55:10,276 --> 00:55:12,736
highlight & EP:
suicidal ideation, inflammation,

754
00:55:13,396 --> 00:55:18,736
highlight & EP:
stroke, heart disease, And conversely, access to meaningful relations,

755
00:55:19,056 --> 00:55:26,396
highlight & EP:
social capital, it correlates with lower disability rates, enhanced employment opportunities,

756
00:55:26,936 --> 00:55:28,976
highlight & EP:
more meaningful relationships.

757
00:55:29,736 --> 00:55:30,876
highlight & EP:
Better mental health.

758
00:55:31,356 --> 00:55:35,776
highlight & EP:
You know, there's some real benefits. It's one of the things that I would love to show.

759
00:55:36,016 --> 00:55:39,536
highlight & EP:
In fact, our companioning program really grew out of an idea.

760
00:55:39,736 --> 00:55:44,036
highlight & EP:
A large health provider was trying to do on their own, but they couldn't because

761
00:55:44,036 --> 00:55:46,136
highlight & EP:
there were too many bureaucratic hurdles.

762
00:55:46,796 --> 00:55:52,976
highlight & EP:
But this is a group of people that were trying to reduce the hospital readmission rates.

763
00:55:53,216 --> 00:55:58,296
highlight & EP:
You know, when people leave hospitals, people return to hospitals who are in,

764
00:55:58,656 --> 00:56:03,056
highlight & EP:
you know, who have deficient social support networks in the same way that they return to prisons.

765
00:56:03,236 --> 00:56:07,556
highlight & EP:
You know, you hear about how people get comfortable being institutionalized,

766
00:56:07,656 --> 00:56:08,776
highlight & EP:
but that's a big problem.

767
00:56:09,376 --> 00:56:13,756
highlight & EP:
And if we had enough time, you need study over several years,

768
00:56:13,916 --> 00:56:18,616
highlight & EP:
I think you could show that you could probably reduce hospital readmission rates as well.

769
00:56:18,796 --> 00:56:23,996
highlight & EP:
So there's all sorts of public health benefits that could be brought about if

770
00:56:23,996 --> 00:56:27,496
highlight & EP:
we could get people to do more of this ourselves.

771
00:56:28,016 --> 00:56:33,396
highlight & EP:
And really, we're trending in the right direction. The healthcare community

772
00:56:33,396 --> 00:56:38,256
highlight & EP:
has been great about encouraging people to use the community for sports.

773
00:56:38,376 --> 00:56:42,556
highlight & EP:
They've been really open to working with entities like social health,

774
00:56:42,716 --> 00:56:44,396
highlight & EP:
you know, to give us referrals.

775
00:56:44,756 --> 00:56:48,536
highlight & EP:
Funding is a different story, but I think that's what we need to probably do.

776
00:56:48,736 --> 00:56:54,556
highlight & EP:
We need to figure out a way of empowering a lot of community groups to get involved.

777
00:56:54,696 --> 00:56:58,016
highlight & EP:
I don't think there needs to be, you know, one entity in peak body.

778
00:56:58,016 --> 00:57:03,516
highlight & EP:
I think we need a lot of hands on deck, you know, and we need to catch people where we catch them.

779
00:57:04,329 --> 00:57:09,009
highlight & EP:
And you hear this about suicide, for example, this came up, I did a talk the

780
00:57:09,009 --> 00:57:14,829
highlight & EP:
other day at the Lions Club, and this man was saying, gosh, I wonder how many

781
00:57:14,829 --> 00:57:17,969
highlight & EP:
people you've saved from suicide.

782
00:57:17,969 --> 00:57:21,609
highlight & EP:
And we've had a couple people that eventually revealed that to us.

783
00:57:21,829 --> 00:57:27,569
highlight & EP:
They had been considering that. And sometimes it takes one person showing up in their lives.

784
00:57:27,669 --> 00:57:34,049
highlight & EP:
It doesn't take a community. One person who, you know, extends human decency

785
00:57:34,049 --> 00:57:38,849
highlight & EP:
at a critical time that can make all the difference in the world.

786
00:57:39,129 --> 00:57:44,669
highlight & EP:
So what my hope is that we find all sorts of community organizations and civic

787
00:57:44,669 --> 00:57:49,049
highlight & EP:
groups and all sorts of entities working at the community level,

788
00:57:49,269 --> 00:57:52,349
highlight & EP:
getting involved with this work and taking it on.

789
00:57:52,349 --> 00:57:56,689
highlight & EP:
We would love to play a role in helping, you know, be involved with that.

790
00:57:56,689 --> 00:58:01,989
highlight & EP:
Maybe it's so much work to recruit and train and support volunteers and.

791
00:58:02,389 --> 00:58:04,369
highlight & EP:
You know, we all have to pick our spots.

792
00:58:04,569 --> 00:58:08,449
highlight & EP:
We're working with a couple groups. We're working right now with Humanist Australia

793
00:58:08,449 --> 00:58:13,069
highlight & EP:
to be able to sort of let them do their own companioning initiative that we're

794
00:58:13,069 --> 00:58:14,269
highlight & EP:
sort of standing behind.

795
00:58:14,509 --> 00:58:19,189
highlight & EP:
And I'd like to do more of that out there and encourage more people to sort of get in the game.

796
00:58:19,409 --> 00:58:24,869
highlight & EP:
That's where it has to go. And we've certainly seen a rise in community programs

797
00:58:24,869 --> 00:58:29,689
highlight & EP:
such as, you know, the chatty cafes that are now actually operating.

798
00:58:29,749 --> 00:58:33,149
highlight & EP:
I know that there's few on the peninsula now where I live.

799
00:58:33,349 --> 00:58:37,909
highlight & EP:
You know, we have the death cafes if people are actually interested in end of

800
00:58:37,909 --> 00:58:39,689
highlight & EP:
life and having those conversations.

801
00:58:40,149 --> 00:58:46,229
highlight & EP:
So you're saying that you really see the, you know, those grassroots community

802
00:58:46,229 --> 00:58:50,409
highlight & EP:
groups as being instrumental. And we also have things like podcasts,

803
00:58:50,629 --> 00:58:54,449
highlight & EP:
you know, create a safe space for people to be open and vulnerable.

804
00:58:54,689 --> 00:58:57,409
highlight & EP:
I was talking to Annie Whitlock about that yesterday. We said,

805
00:58:57,509 --> 00:59:00,769
highlight & EP:
gosh, maybe we should do one. It's such a great way.

806
00:59:01,569 --> 00:59:08,449
highlight & EP:
I think it's especially difficult for older men to sort of emote and to get comfortable.

807
00:59:08,449 --> 00:59:11,329
highlight & EP:
And you know yes there's men's groups

808
00:59:11,329 --> 00:59:15,029
highlight & EP:
and men's sheds and some outlets here and there but

809
00:59:15,029 --> 00:59:18,089
highlight & EP:
that's what we need to do is create more safe areas

810
00:59:18,089 --> 00:59:20,789
highlight & EP:
for people to acknowledge you know

811
00:59:20,789 --> 00:59:23,989
highlight & EP:
to be vulnerable acknowledge what they're going through and know

812
00:59:23,989 --> 00:59:27,169
highlight & EP:
that they may need some support and that's

813
00:59:27,169 --> 00:59:32,109
highlight & EP:
really really really tricky but that's where i think sporting clubs you know

814
00:59:32,109 --> 00:59:37,809
highlight & EP:
you mentioned michelle limb it's interesting in her research she found out that

815
00:59:37,809 --> 00:59:42,629
highlight & EP:
participation in sporting clubs does not correlate with reduced feelings of

816
00:59:42,629 --> 00:59:44,529
highlight & EP:
loneliness which is really interesting and,

817
00:59:45,107 --> 00:59:49,307
highlight & EP:
And I learned from my hockey member, mate, who I supported, you know,

818
00:59:49,367 --> 00:59:54,347
highlight & EP:
he said it was devastating to him when he came back to the rink after a year,

819
00:59:54,487 --> 00:59:55,847
highlight & EP:
a year after his wife died.

820
00:59:55,987 --> 00:59:59,367
highlight & EP:
And these guys, they had known for 40 years, he said, they turned around and

821
00:59:59,367 --> 01:00:00,787
highlight & EP:
walked away like they saw a ghost.

822
01:00:01,627 --> 01:00:04,667
highlight & EP:
And they just didn't know, they didn't want to say the wrong thing.

823
01:00:04,807 --> 01:00:07,547
highlight & EP:
They were uncomfortable. They were, you know, they didn't know what to do.

824
01:00:08,167 --> 01:00:11,967
highlight & EP:
So, Al and I have talked about, oh, gosh, could we train people?

825
01:00:11,967 --> 01:00:16,207
highlight & EP:
Have one designated captain that you know, you know, that you could go to,

826
01:00:16,547 --> 01:00:19,227
highlight & EP:
you know, but that's what we really need.

827
01:00:19,367 --> 01:00:23,127
highlight & EP:
We need more, given that we're not going to do anything about the fact that

828
01:00:23,127 --> 01:00:29,707
highlight & EP:
we are stuck living in our detached homes and our civic and religious institutions

829
01:00:29,707 --> 01:00:31,847
highlight & EP:
are, you know, are on the decline.

830
01:00:31,887 --> 01:00:37,587
highlight & EP:
We have to find more innovative forms of, of, of surrogacy, I guess,

831
01:00:37,727 --> 01:00:43,427
highlight & EP:
to just allow people to connect and be able to connect at critical times.

832
01:00:43,867 --> 01:00:49,007
highlight & EP:
Yeah, it's going to be a lot of work. But as I said, I think we're trending in the right direction.

833
01:00:49,447 --> 01:00:54,387
highlight & EP:
What do you do, Joe, on a daily basis to, you know, make that connection or,

834
01:00:54,567 --> 01:00:59,847
highlight & EP:
you know, because it seems to be that you're a person that lives this,

835
01:01:00,107 --> 01:01:05,427
highlight & EP:
you know, and has consistently lived this day in, day out for a very long time.

836
01:01:05,427 --> 01:01:09,467
highlight & EP:
It's not just something that you put a hat on when you go to work and this is what you do.

837
01:01:09,727 --> 01:01:13,647
highlight & EP:
So what do you find that you do on a daily basis?

838
01:01:14,007 --> 01:01:20,727
highlight & EP:
I always try to have a couple people in my life that I check in on and then I connect with.

839
01:01:20,967 --> 01:01:28,107
highlight & EP:
So I've gotten better about having regular calls with people back in the homeland and even here.

840
01:01:28,986 --> 01:01:35,026
highlight & EP:
And I know a couple people who are dealing with loneliness, like I've been dealing with it.

841
01:01:35,366 --> 01:01:40,326
highlight & EP:
And it doesn't really take much to just check in and have a cup of coffee or,

842
01:01:40,526 --> 01:01:42,606
highlight & EP:
you know, and it makes my life richer too.

843
01:01:42,846 --> 01:01:46,926
highlight & EP:
So I've tried to, you know, I try to do that.

844
01:01:46,926 --> 01:01:51,946
highlight & EP:
I probably don't do as much as I could on the self-care front in general,

845
01:01:51,946 --> 01:01:55,846
highlight & EP:
but I do try to take care of myself and I've been,

846
01:01:56,006 --> 01:02:00,826
highlight & EP:
I had a long bout of long COVID that I'm just sort of recovering from,

847
01:02:00,986 --> 01:02:05,986
highlight & EP:
which has really made it difficult to do much of, but I'm sort of getting over

848
01:02:05,986 --> 01:02:12,106
highlight & EP:
that and it's sensitized me to a lot of what happens with people living with disabilities.

849
01:02:12,346 --> 01:02:16,506
highlight & EP:
And I maybe realized how we're all at some point, especially at the end of life,

850
01:02:16,706 --> 01:02:20,306
highlight & EP:
you You know, unless you sort of die suddenly, you're going to be dealing with

851
01:02:20,306 --> 01:02:23,866
highlight & EP:
disability then and we otherwise it.

852
01:02:24,006 --> 01:02:29,666
highlight & EP:
And I think I try to have a manageable amount of suffering in my life.

853
01:02:29,866 --> 01:02:34,766
highlight & EP:
I feel like I need it to be feeling like I'm living in community,

854
01:02:35,066 --> 01:02:38,666
highlight & EP:
you know, and if I don't have it, I feel like I'm disconnected.

855
01:02:39,046 --> 01:02:43,506
highlight & EP:
And I it's funny. I was talking about this with our mutual friend, Annie.

856
01:02:43,506 --> 01:02:46,646
highlight & EP:
You know i think a lot of people are afraid

857
01:02:46,646 --> 01:02:49,506
highlight & EP:
to be around people who are in pain and think

858
01:02:49,506 --> 01:02:53,066
highlight & EP:
it and there is secondary traumatic stress and vicarious trauma

859
01:02:53,066 --> 01:02:56,286
highlight & EP:
and there is a way to learn to be more boundaried but

860
01:02:56,286 --> 01:03:00,906
highlight & EP:
you know the jesuit liberation theologians used to say that you know when we

861
01:03:00,906 --> 01:03:06,026
highlight & EP:
really live in community when one person suffers we all suffer you know and

862
01:03:06,026 --> 01:03:11,206
highlight & EP:
i think that we need to learn how to show up for that and not be afraid of being

863
01:03:11,206 --> 01:03:15,706
highlight & EP:
around people who are in pain because it will be us at some point.

864
01:03:15,986 --> 01:03:19,266
highlight & EP:
And we want to know that there'll be people that we can turn to.

865
01:03:19,526 --> 01:03:25,426
highlight & EP:
So that's my big tip. And I'm trying to do that in a manageable way and a way

866
01:03:25,426 --> 01:03:29,286
highlight & EP:
that allows me to stay healthy and whole and not feel overwhelmed.

867
01:03:29,586 --> 01:03:32,926
highlight & EP:
I think that's a really good advice, Joe. And I think that's a great way to

868
01:03:32,926 --> 01:03:35,186
highlight & EP:
actually end our interview. Sounds good.

869
01:03:35,686 --> 01:03:38,626
highlight & EP:
Thank you for the opportunity to speak today, Catherine.

870
01:03:39,326 --> 01:03:41,926
highlight & EP:
Oh, it's been a pleasure having you, Joe. Thank you very much.

871
01:03:44,206 --> 01:03:47,886
outro:
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872
01:03:48,106 --> 01:03:49,946
outro:
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873
01:03:50,466 --> 01:03:55,006
outro:
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outro:
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