Embracing Mortality: Hayley West on Art, Death, and Community
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About this episode
What happens when you mix art, death, and a whole lot of creativity? You get Hayley West – a multi-talented artist, librarian, death literacy advocate, and aspiring doom metal vocalist. In this episode, Hayley takes us on a journey through her fascinating life, where death isn’t just a topic—it’s a muse. From interactive art installations to hosting a radio show called Dead Air, Hayley’s work challenges us to think differently about mortality and how we engage with it. Whether you’re curious about natural burials, death cafes, or just want to hear a wild story about a stolen hearse, this episode is packed with insights and inspiration.
Hayley West is a true multi-potentialite. She’s an artist, a librarian, a death literacy advocate, a radio presenter, and even an aspiring doom metal vocalist. But what ties all these roles together is her deep connection to death—not as something morbid, but as a natural part of life that deserves attention, creativity, and conversation. In this episode, Hayley shares how her personal experiences with loss shaped her art practice, leading her to create thought-provoking installations like her cooling bed performances and her grotto made from artificial flowers collected from cemeteries.
We also dive into her advocacy work, including her involvement with the Natural Death Advocacy Network (NDAN) and her role in promoting death literacy. Hayley’s passion for breaking down taboos around death is infectious, and her stories—like the time a hearse was stolen with a coffin inside—are as entertaining as they are enlightening. Plus, she gives us a peek into her radio show, Dead Air, where she explores all things death-related, from natural burials to necrophilia (yes, really!).
Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine
Show notes
Guest Bio
Multipotentialite, Librarian, Artist, Death Literacy Advocate, Radio Presenter, Student, and Parent
15 & 13
As a socially engaged artist, Hayley West focuses on themes of death and memorialisation. Her work spans performance, sculpture, video, and installation to explore the realities of grief, the inevitability of death, and the acceptance of mortality. Drawing from personal experiences and artistic practice, she delves into the impact of death on individuals and those left behind.
Working in the public realm, Hayley is committed to empowering communities through sharing practical knowledge and fostering generosity. With over 20 years of experience in research, exhibitions, and residencies both nationally and internationally, her practice continues to evolve and engage audiences globally.
11 & 10
Hayley has hosted DEAD AIR a weekly, live radio show on 94.9MAINfm since Nov 2021 and is Vice-President of the committee; co-hosted Death Cafés 2013-23; a committee member of the Natural Death Advocacy Network; and was previously on the Historical Castlemaine Cemetery Trust 2018-22. She is an active supporter of the Australian Home Funeral Alliance and the Queer as Death Collective.
The Departure was once a physical studio & advocacy space located at The Mill. It currently exists in a transient form encompassing various projects. Please contact Hayley regarding art-related commissions such as bespoke ceramic ashes urns. She can also recommend reputable funeral industry businesses and individuals working in end-of-life care, other contemporary artists working in the realm of death, and give advice on running a Death Café in your own community.
Photo credits: Portraits of Hayley West, Credit: Fred Farquhar
10. Hayley West’s artwork ‘Immortelle’ (detail) for the BOAA exhibition, Ballarat.
11. Hayley West’s artwork ‘Immortelle’ for the Castlemaine State Festival, Castlemaine., Credit: Martin Hurley
15. Hayley West’s artwork ‘Welcome to the field of reeds’ (detail), c3 gallery Melbourne.
13. Hayley West’s artwork ‘1 Million Years’ (dvd still), Katoomba, Blue Mountains, Credit: Maitree House
Summary
Key points from our discussion:
- Art and Death: Hayley’s art practice is deeply intertwined with themes of death, grief, and memory. From creating interactive installations to performance pieces like lying on a cooling bed, her work invites people to confront their own mortality in unexpected ways.
- Death Cafes: Hayley shares how death cafes—a global movement where people gather to talk openly about death—changed her perspective and helped her feel less alone in her experiences with loss.
- Natural Death Advocacy: As a member of the Natural Death Advocacy Network, Hayley is passionate about environmentally friendly death practices, like natural burials and human composting.
- Dead Air Radio: Tune into Hayley’s radio show on Main FM, where she explores death-related topics, reads articles, and interviews experts in the field. It’s death education with a creative twist!
- The Stolen Hearse Story: One of the most unforgettable moments in Hayley’s life involved a hearse being stolen—with a coffin inside. Spoiler: it ends well, but it’s a wild ride!
Transcript
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My family was always death denial family.
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Like, when my three year old sister died,
her photograph was taken out of the house
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and she was never spoken about again.
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And I had a young uncle who died in a
drink driving accident when he was 21.
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And that, too, was too devastating
for anybody to come to ... Read More
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My family was always death denial family.
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00:00:06,010 --> 00:00:10,560
Like, when my three year old sister died,
her photograph was taken out of the house
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and she was never spoken about again.
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And I had a young uncle who died in a
drink driving accident when he was 21.
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And that, too, was too devastating
for anybody to come to terms
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with, so didn't talk about him.
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And then I had a grandparent who died
suddenly when I was in my teens as well.
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And then I had a friend who died by
suicide when I was in high school.
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And, you know, death has just followed
me basically all through my life.
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A podcast encouraging open conversations
about dying and the death of a loved one.
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I'm your host Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to
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bring your stories of death back to life.
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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.
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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations
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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.
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We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging, and extend
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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First
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Nation peoples around the globe.
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Today I'm speaking with Hayley West.
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Hayley West describes
herself on her LinkedIn bio.
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It's very intriguing.
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As a multi potentialite, I lead a diverse
life embracing roles as a librarian,
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artist, deaf literacy advocate,
radio presenter, student, and parent.
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I am also aspiring to be a
doom metal vocalist to the mix.
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I love that intro.
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I have never seen such a
good intro on a LinkedIn bio.
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Thank you for being with us, Hayley.
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No problem.
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Thanks for finding that little snippet.
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Now tell me, of all of the hats that
you seem to describe and wear in
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that particular bio, I have heard
you speak about your arts practice
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and I am fascinated by the different
projects that you've done over time.
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So tell me what attracted you to death?
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What led you to be an artist?
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Tell me how it all started, Hayley.
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Well, I've been creative
my whole life, I guess.
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And I did study formally at RMIT.
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I studied sculpture.
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And I guess, It started there really
in that formal training at a university
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where we didn't have the luxury of a lot
of open space and separate studio spaces.
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It was like we were in
a classroom together.
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Like 20 of us in a room in
the middle of Melbourne CBD.
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And so we had to
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open plan before it became a,
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yeah, that's right.
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You know, when we looked at VCA over
on the other side, you know, in South
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Melbourne, the kind of St Kilda area, they
had beautiful grounds and, you know, nice.
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It's individual studios and, you know,
we're always very jealous of that, but
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it really made us think a little bit more
conceptually about the work that we were
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creating and the engagement that we had
with each other was very close contact.
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But when we had to present work,
it was like on the rooftop in
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the bathroom, you know, in kilns
or around pillars, or we had to.
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Really kind of think outside the
square when we were presenting
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and it really made a lot of our
practices become quite interesting.
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And I guess death had kind of already
started appearing in my work because at.
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That point as well, Dad had died, which
was my first, well, I'd had quite a
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few deaths before that, but that was a
really significant death for me in 1995.
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And that was around the time, yeah, just,
I think just before I started at RMIT.
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So, I started noticing that The theme of
death was kind of creeping in, although
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there was a theme of love and sex as well.
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So there was kind of all, you know,
like a bit of taboo things going on, you
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know, and people weren't really talking
about death a lot back in the nineties.
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And so.
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So, I guess from that point, that was
where I started to really think about
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art as not so much, even though I was
studying sculpture, not so much about
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an object making path I was taking.
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It was, it really was something, you know,
I was creating works that were ephemeral
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or interactive, or it had the option for
people to interact with it, or, you know.
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contribute to it as well.
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You know, one of the works that I did, I
had a really dodgy job when I was working,
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when I was studying, I was working for
a pre internet for a dating agency.
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Oh, wow.
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It was fascinating.
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And there was a variety
of jobs I had to do.
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I won't go into them all, but one of
them involved pre recording messages
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and leaving messages for men who
were interested in particular women
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and in my case, I was a different
person in each state of Australia.
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It was very dodgy, but there was one
person who kept calling me and singing
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to me and leaving singing messages.
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And so I turned it into an artwork.
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So I recorded myself.
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Singing the same songs into a phone
and then I merged them together
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like we were singing duets.
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Oh
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my
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goodness.
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Yeah, that was one of
my graduating artworks.
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And so people would come into the
space and they'd have to lift up.
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the telephone, like an old school
telephone and call a particular number
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and then they would hear our duets.
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Yeah, and I did end up trying to meet him.
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Oh wow, that is, that is so cool.
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Did you?
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No, he never turned up.
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I took another like fellow art student
under the clocks, Flinders Street Station.
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How very traditional of you.
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Yeah, and he was going to be wearing a
particular, you know, I can't remember,
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probably a flanny, a blue flanny or
something, you know, it was grunge time.
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And I took a friend to, to, to,
to, take photographs of, you know,
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people that he could see and me
for a bit of protection as well.
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But yeah, he never turned up or he did
and he saw me and, and chickened out.
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Who knows?
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Anyway, so I've kind of,
yeah, I've been interested in.
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Artworks that are, you know, have
that interactive kind of quality,
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I guess, that's where it started.
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And one of the artworks that is very
vividly in my head was when you presented
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the one where you involved your daughter.
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Ah, the video work.
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Can you tell us a little bit
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about
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that?
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Yeah, so I've done a couple of
little video works with her before.
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When I was living in the Blue Mountains,
I lived in Darwin for eight years.
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And then we decided to move to the
Blue Mountains, and I've always.
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Really loved grotto, the religious
grotto spaces, you know, devotional
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grottos around the world, there's
particularly in Catholic countries.
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Anyway, in the Blue Mountains.
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Yeah, they're all over Italy.
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Yes, yes.
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In the Blue Mountains, there, there's
some really strange, kooky ones
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like, you know, that were built.
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post war by ex servicemen coming
back from the war and the council
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or whoever at the time decided that
they wanted to build these picnic
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huts, but they're really ugly.
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You know, they're concrete grottos
and they're just like picnic huts
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basically, but they kind of have a fake.
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kind of rock formation,
you know, around them.
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And I just loved them.
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I thought they were so great.
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And I started up a blog actually,
Blue Mountains Grotto Love.
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Anyway, when we left Darwin, I
really missed Darwin and I found
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the Blue Mountains quite hard.
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A whole nother set of new deaths
happened, and the family was
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struggling a little bit with that.
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And also we were struggling to
find work, an extended family were
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struggling to find work as well.
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And so I had this kind of real
longing for Darwin, and I didn't know
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anyone really in New South Wales.
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So it was, I found it
difficult to make friends.
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I had a small child who I was pretty
much looking after myself at the time.
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And so.
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I just came up with this idea.
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I wanted to do an artwork in the
grottoes, and I kind of roped Ramona,
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my daughter, into a couple of other
artworks that I'd done with her.
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And I just had this vision of
wrapping her in all the Indonesian.
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Sorongs and different longies from our
travels around Southeast Asia, because,
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you know, I just thought, I think I was
thinking about shrouds and how they're
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usually white sheets, but I had these
sorongs I kept hanging onto even though
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I was living in a really cold climate.
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And so, Yeah, it was quite interesting
because I was lying down on the
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table in the grotto and I had a
couple of friends who were videoing
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and I had my stepdaughter, Asha,
also kind of helping with Ramona.
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I didn't really have an idea in mind.
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I just knew that she was going to wrap me
in sarongs, but what I didn't realize was
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just that situation where you're actually
don't have any control over what happens.
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And she was only three at
the time, three or four.
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And so Asha was directing her to
wrap me and I was lying very still.
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Like I was.
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Pretending to be dead and she, you
know, move a little chair around
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and kind of keep wrapping me.
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And I had to kind of give up
the artistic control and also
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it was getting videoed as well.
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So I didn't know what they were
doing and they didn't really
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have any direction either.
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And the grotto was at the
side of a big lake too.
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So they actually got into the lake at one
point and did a far away shot as well.
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And so it became this.
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Really interesting work for me about
the connection between mother and
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daughter, you know, kind of talking
to children as well about death and
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how at a certain age, they start to
question death and their own mortality.
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And, you know, my mother had died.
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when I was in Darwin as well.
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I think she died in 2007.
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And yeah, so it became a real artwork
about mother and daughter and kind of
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disengaging yourself from your child,
you know, at a certain age where
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they start to not need you as much.
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And so it was a real kind
of grief piece as well.
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And then at the end, you know,
I'd collected all the, it was
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a 30 year cycle of cicadas.
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Coming to the Blue Mountains and
it was like a mass exoskeleton
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like party on the streets.
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They were everywhere.
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So I collected hundreds
and hundreds of them.
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Anyway, Ramona at the end of the video
is kind of throwing them into the water.
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You know, so it's this kind of
metamorphosis, kind of symbolism as well.
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Oh wow, that's really beautiful.
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Yeah, so that was a really great work to
make, and just the result of it, of like,
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yeah, watching it and seeing it for the
first time and working with the film.
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Producers who edited it
for me too, thank goodness.
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00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:57,890
And just having, it was very,
you know, not much sound to it.
191
00:11:57,900 --> 00:11:59,780
There's a bit of bird sound, I think.
192
00:11:59,799 --> 00:12:01,959
But that was quite profound, that work.
193
00:12:01,959 --> 00:12:02,520
I loved it.
194
00:12:02,660 --> 00:12:06,719
I kept thinking I'd like to do more works
with her as she got older, you know.
195
00:12:06,719 --> 00:12:09,179
And, but the kind of, you
know, life gets in the way.
196
00:12:09,219 --> 00:12:10,189
That's very true.
197
00:12:10,389 --> 00:12:11,619
And how old is she now?
198
00:12:11,820 --> 00:12:12,540
14.
199
00:12:12,610 --> 00:12:16,360
Okay, so you're not, you're not quite
at that stage where she's starting
200
00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,780
to separate, but not fully there yet.
201
00:12:18,790 --> 00:12:19,060
Yeah,
202
00:12:19,829 --> 00:12:21,030
she's pretty independent.
203
00:12:21,060 --> 00:12:25,360
I mean, we are now in Castle Main,
you know, the kids are off doing all,
204
00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:27,210
you know, their own thing really.
205
00:12:27,309 --> 00:12:28,599
And it's such a small town.
206
00:12:29,050 --> 00:12:33,939
I mean, my ex husband and I, we separated
after we got to Castle Main because
207
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Castle Main's such a great place.
208
00:12:36,180 --> 00:12:39,440
It's like, it's, it's beautiful visually.
209
00:12:39,910 --> 00:12:44,160
I think after living in Darwin and living
in the Blue Mountains, they were quite
210
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:48,140
similar environmentally, even though
they're the complete opposite extreme
211
00:12:48,140 --> 00:12:51,180
weather, but I felt very claustrophobic.
212
00:12:51,189 --> 00:12:54,680
Like Darwin towards the end
was, you know, the tropics and,
213
00:12:55,059 --> 00:12:56,349
you know, you couldn't breathe.
214
00:12:56,369 --> 00:12:57,439
You had this amount of.
215
00:12:57,835 --> 00:13:01,505
You know, oxygen sometimes in October,
this time of year, where it's the
216
00:13:01,515 --> 00:13:06,094
build up after the dry and before
the wet and then we moved to the Blue
217
00:13:06,125 --> 00:13:10,724
Mountains and it was like mist was in
front of you, like a meter in front
218
00:13:10,724 --> 00:13:12,025
and you couldn't see through it.
219
00:13:12,025 --> 00:13:16,785
And it was like this really dense
environments I'd been living in for
220
00:13:16,815 --> 00:13:20,235
over 10 years and so the next place.
221
00:13:20,689 --> 00:13:26,410
We moved to was my suggestion was Castle
Mane because I had, I still have a brother
222
00:13:26,410 --> 00:13:30,950
who's living and he lives in Melbourne
and I was like, let's move to Castle Mane.
223
00:13:30,950 --> 00:13:32,929
I just want to see through the gum trees.
224
00:13:33,449 --> 00:13:36,170
Like, I, I can't, I need space, like.
225
00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:37,420
Yep.
226
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:38,170
Yep.
227
00:13:38,170 --> 00:13:38,679
Yeah.
228
00:13:38,859 --> 00:13:39,510
Yeah, because
229
00:13:39,510 --> 00:13:41,109
it is, it's really, really dense.
230
00:13:41,109 --> 00:13:45,689
I so understand what you're talking about,
because I remember we were in, in Darwin
231
00:13:46,039 --> 00:13:50,530
July last year, and I was just so thankful
that we weren't there in that kind of
232
00:13:50,930 --> 00:13:54,910
period now, in this build up to the wet
again, because I cannot stand humidity.
233
00:13:55,459 --> 00:13:59,239
And the density of the bush around the
Blue Mountains, it is dense, isn't it?
234
00:13:59,270 --> 00:14:01,019
Like, it's really dense.
235
00:14:01,079 --> 00:14:02,770
People get lost in there, like.
236
00:14:02,874 --> 00:14:03,894
Three steps in.
237
00:14:05,144 --> 00:14:06,394
Yeah, yeah.
238
00:14:06,915 --> 00:14:12,234
So, tell me more about your arts practice
because I, I really remember the vivid
239
00:14:12,304 --> 00:14:18,064
color and the contrast of, of the
beautiful, like, saris and sarongs that
240
00:14:18,064 --> 00:14:19,934
you were using in that particular one.
241
00:14:20,304 --> 00:14:25,185
But that's not the only one where you've
used a lot of color as well, is it?
242
00:14:25,234 --> 00:14:31,105
Like, I love the structure that you
made out of everyday materials found
243
00:14:31,105 --> 00:14:33,795
in cemeteries, That was just amazing.
244
00:14:33,805 --> 00:14:35,295
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
245
00:14:35,694 --> 00:14:40,064
That's actually a nice segue from
that video work, because I came back
246
00:14:40,084 --> 00:14:42,314
to the grotto kind of structure.
247
00:14:42,574 --> 00:14:48,025
So when I was, well, that was a few years
after I'd moved here, I had this idea.
248
00:14:48,064 --> 00:14:49,765
Well, I joined a cemetery trust.
249
00:14:49,804 --> 00:14:51,015
That was the other thing I did.
250
00:14:51,015 --> 00:14:53,824
I joined a cemetery trust
here in Kesselmane, which I
251
00:14:53,824 --> 00:14:56,474
was on for five years and.
252
00:14:57,540 --> 00:15:02,030
It's, there's a lot of picking up
of artificial flowers that, you
253
00:15:02,030 --> 00:15:04,750
know, you either put them back if
you know where they've come from on
254
00:15:04,780 --> 00:15:08,890
a grave, but there's a stack that
just gets blown off into the bush.
255
00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:12,530
And so I spent a period of eight
months like going around to different
256
00:15:12,530 --> 00:15:15,090
cemeteries and cleaning up the bush.
257
00:15:16,180 --> 00:15:18,490
on the outskirts of the bush cemeteries.
258
00:15:18,870 --> 00:15:24,509
So I collected all these artificial
flowers that were once, you know, a
259
00:15:24,510 --> 00:15:33,070
memorial for someone, but now I decided
to make them into a collective memorial
260
00:15:33,230 --> 00:15:38,339
for all those people that kind of had
been part of every single flower, like
261
00:15:38,719 --> 00:15:40,450
that somebody had laid on their grave.
262
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:45,440
You know, I created this grotto structure
where you, Out of the artificial flowers,
263
00:15:46,020 --> 00:15:50,749
so you could actually get inside it and
you know, it has an opening at the front
264
00:15:50,749 --> 00:15:57,439
and I first showed it in Ballarat as
part of a festival there and it stunk
265
00:15:57,439 --> 00:16:02,220
a little bit actually, like, because a
lot of those flowers were really manky.
266
00:16:02,660 --> 00:16:06,280
So, I ended up going to see
a witch in Kangaroo Flat.
267
00:16:06,795 --> 00:16:08,135
There's a witch who's up there.
268
00:16:08,135 --> 00:16:11,555
There's a lot of witchy kind of business
that goes on around central Victoria.
269
00:16:11,615 --> 00:16:13,605
There's Mount Franklin as well.
270
00:16:13,775 --> 00:16:15,045
Leaningrook, yeah.
271
00:16:15,115 --> 00:16:19,615
The pagans go up there and do various
things on top of the mountain.
272
00:16:20,095 --> 00:16:24,014
But yeah, so I went and saw this witch
in Kangaroo flat and I said, people are
273
00:16:24,014 --> 00:16:30,025
going to go into this memorial space and,
you know, I told her what it was, uh,
274
00:16:30,035 --> 00:16:34,714
what it was made up of and she said, Oh,
I need to make something that kind of is.
275
00:16:35,020 --> 00:16:38,310
You know, doesn't encourage any bad juju.
276
00:16:38,819 --> 00:16:44,279
So she created this scent for me that
I put all over it, which was nice,
277
00:16:44,380 --> 00:16:49,660
except when I accidentally, um, spilt
it in my glove box and like for the
278
00:16:49,660 --> 00:16:53,339
next five years, I can smell it.
279
00:16:53,339 --> 00:16:54,249
Oh, wow.
280
00:16:54,290 --> 00:16:55,870
It's a really beautiful work.
281
00:16:55,900 --> 00:17:00,970
It's had a couple of visits to art
parties that are, there used to be some
282
00:17:01,010 --> 00:17:06,209
art parties here called Shavu and it
was part of, people have performed.
283
00:17:06,505 --> 00:17:11,595
Inside it, you know, it only fits
one person or two people, but it's
284
00:17:11,595 --> 00:17:16,684
also been on the island for the
Castlemaine State Festival, the
285
00:17:16,685 --> 00:17:19,435
island at our botanical gardens here.
286
00:17:19,994 --> 00:17:22,274
Which was interesting because
you couldn't actually get to it,
287
00:17:22,565 --> 00:17:24,625
but you could see it from afar.
288
00:17:24,625 --> 00:17:27,575
So it was kind of like this
curious, what, what the hell is
289
00:17:27,575 --> 00:17:29,315
that doing there on an island?
290
00:17:29,834 --> 00:17:32,545
So I kind of liked that idea
that you actually couldn't
291
00:17:32,575 --> 00:17:34,075
interact with it as well.
292
00:17:34,485 --> 00:17:35,445
Yeah, yeah.
293
00:17:35,754 --> 00:17:38,834
Because so much of your work
does involve that interaction.
294
00:17:38,835 --> 00:17:39,384
And as you mentioned as
295
00:17:39,384 --> 00:17:43,195
well, colour, like, I don't know
how that kind of came into it
296
00:17:43,225 --> 00:17:44,705
because I wear black mainly.
297
00:17:44,705 --> 00:17:49,125
I think it's like I express
myself through my artwork, but.
298
00:17:49,260 --> 00:17:56,110
Yeah, like, yeah, I do love seeing people
interact with artwork, even when I've
299
00:17:56,110 --> 00:18:03,869
made static objects, there's still like
an element of touch or, you know, like
300
00:18:04,420 --> 00:18:06,990
I had an ongoing project for a while.
301
00:18:07,449 --> 00:18:13,880
That was collecting handmade vessels,
ceramic vessels from op shops, you
302
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:15,340
know, that somebody had hand built.
303
00:18:15,910 --> 00:18:18,970
A lot of the time it's kids or
somebody's pottery lesson or
304
00:18:18,970 --> 00:18:21,260
whatever ends up in the op shop.
305
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,490
So I collected them and then I. Yeah.
306
00:18:24,500 --> 00:18:30,700
Created ceramic lids for them and
turned them into cremation urns.
307
00:18:31,380 --> 00:18:33,550
And so they had a new life again.
308
00:18:33,570 --> 00:18:38,510
It was like I was kind of saving
them from, from being discarded
309
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:41,539
by whoever, family members.
310
00:18:41,940 --> 00:18:42,170
Yeah.
311
00:18:42,350 --> 00:18:46,700
And I did one exhibition with
them, which had a whole lot of
312
00:18:46,780 --> 00:18:51,840
death iconography from the Egyptian
symbolism, the book of the dead.
313
00:18:52,109 --> 00:18:52,389
Yeah.
314
00:18:53,770 --> 00:18:59,790
Yeah, and I did a few commissions as
well for other people's pets and somebody
315
00:18:59,790 --> 00:19:04,350
came to me once with two vessels that
they'd found that they really liked
316
00:19:04,959 --> 00:19:08,439
and said, look, we found matching
ones for our matching dogs that died.
317
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,679
So I created like a beautiful lids.
318
00:19:13,860 --> 00:19:18,740
So even though they're kind of static
objects, like they're still have ashes
319
00:19:18,740 --> 00:19:23,399
inside them and they, you know, you
still take the lid off and you interact.
320
00:19:23,399 --> 00:19:27,100
And I guess other works
I've done for my masters.
321
00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:29,599
So when I was in the blue
mountains and I was having a pretty
322
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,210
terrible time, I decided I would.
323
00:19:32,505 --> 00:19:39,304
Um, actually delve deeper into the whole
death industry and, Oh, well, the idea
324
00:19:39,304 --> 00:19:44,355
was actually to do my master's in visual
arts because I couldn't find a job.
325
00:19:44,424 --> 00:19:48,715
And then I ended up getting an Australian
postgraduate scholarship, which fed
326
00:19:48,715 --> 00:19:50,734
the family, you know, for two years.
327
00:19:51,125 --> 00:19:52,254
So that was awesome.
328
00:19:52,604 --> 00:19:57,035
And I still wanted to maintain a
connection to Darwin as well, so I did
329
00:19:57,035 --> 00:19:58,745
it through Charles Darwin University.
330
00:19:59,645 --> 00:20:03,785
But yeah, and then I decided at that
point, it's like, I'm going to really like
331
00:20:03,884 --> 00:20:09,364
delve deeply into the whole death industry
because I've noticed that it's kind of
332
00:20:09,365 --> 00:20:11,985
been appearing in my artwork for a while.
333
00:20:12,735 --> 00:20:15,385
And yeah, so I started researching.
334
00:20:15,895 --> 00:20:18,445
Because it was a master's
by research as well.
335
00:20:18,955 --> 00:20:23,284
I started researching and that's where
I came across death cafe And what
336
00:20:23,284 --> 00:20:29,195
a death cafe was and kind of became
quite intrigued about that Because my
337
00:20:29,205 --> 00:20:34,465
family was always death denial family
like nobody ever talked about death.
338
00:20:34,535 --> 00:20:34,675
Oh,
339
00:20:34,694 --> 00:20:35,234
really?
340
00:20:35,285 --> 00:20:40,524
Yeah, like when my three year old sister
died her photograph was taken out of the
341
00:20:40,524 --> 00:20:43,034
house and she was never spoken about again
342
00:20:43,215 --> 00:20:45,534
Wow, and how old were
you when that happened?
343
00:20:45,975 --> 00:20:46,675
Six.
344
00:20:46,705 --> 00:20:47,554
Wow.
345
00:20:47,655 --> 00:20:48,284
Yeah.
346
00:20:48,294 --> 00:20:55,165
So you just like lost your sister and she
was completely removed from existence.
347
00:20:56,465 --> 00:20:56,715
Yep.
348
00:20:56,725 --> 00:20:57,065
Oh,
349
00:20:57,375 --> 00:20:57,925
wow.
350
00:20:58,215 --> 00:20:58,314
Yeah.
351
00:20:58,314 --> 00:21:03,104
There's so many stories like
through my life of coming to the
352
00:21:03,105 --> 00:21:07,335
realization of certain things that
happened during my lifetime at later
353
00:21:07,375 --> 00:21:09,874
stages, you know, like I kind of.
354
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:13,700
Blocked that out because the
family had blocked it out, I guess.
355
00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:17,270
And, you know, I had a young
uncle who just immigrated to
356
00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:22,349
Australia and he died in a drink
driving accident when he was 21.
357
00:21:22,969 --> 00:21:24,820
So that was the next death.
358
00:21:24,939 --> 00:21:29,100
And that too was like too devastating
for anybody to come to terms with.
359
00:21:29,110 --> 00:21:30,600
So didn't talk about him.
360
00:21:31,235 --> 00:21:31,635
Peter.
361
00:21:32,774 --> 00:21:36,685
And then I had a grandparent who died
suddenly when I was in my teens as well,
362
00:21:36,685 --> 00:21:38,655
and nobody quite knew what happened.
363
00:21:39,425 --> 00:21:42,544
What I talked about, you
know, it just kept going.
364
00:21:42,544 --> 00:21:48,204
And I had a friend who died by suicide
when I was in high school and, you know,
365
00:21:48,564 --> 00:21:50,764
death has just followed me basically.
366
00:21:50,945 --> 00:21:52,754
all through my life, I guess.
367
00:21:52,844 --> 00:21:57,355
So when I came across Death
Cafe, I was like, oh my god,
368
00:21:57,415 --> 00:21:59,085
people want to talk about this?
369
00:21:59,085 --> 00:22:01,175
Like, this is insane.
370
00:22:01,184 --> 00:22:02,724
Like, what are you going to talk about?
371
00:22:02,724 --> 00:22:03,674
Oh my god, I've got to go.
372
00:22:05,064 --> 00:22:05,284
So.
373
00:22:05,675 --> 00:22:09,874
And maybe if you can explain for
those of us who are not aware of Death
374
00:22:09,874 --> 00:22:13,014
Cafes, what it is, how it started.
375
00:22:13,490 --> 00:22:17,210
What the fascination is, what you get
to do with them, that would be great.
376
00:22:17,660 --> 00:22:25,300
Death Cafe started in the UK and it was
created from a model that was already
377
00:22:25,309 --> 00:22:27,450
existing in Switzerland at the time.
378
00:22:27,490 --> 00:22:30,840
And John Underwood is the
founder of Death Cafes.
379
00:22:31,330 --> 00:22:35,280
So he created his own version
for mainly English speaking
380
00:22:35,330 --> 00:22:37,429
countries and Western countries.
381
00:22:37,900 --> 00:22:41,039
And he actually died a few years
ago, which was interesting with
382
00:22:41,050 --> 00:22:46,265
the whole Who was going to take
over running the whole shebang.
383
00:22:47,285 --> 00:22:47,735
Yeah.
384
00:22:47,735 --> 00:22:52,625
So it's, it's really has taken off
and I think it was about 10 years
385
00:22:52,625 --> 00:22:54,695
ago it started, maybe even more.
386
00:22:55,465 --> 00:22:59,585
And so it's, it's hosted in so many
countries around the world now,
387
00:22:59,894 --> 00:23:06,185
particularly I think, you know, America,
England and Australia really are quite,
388
00:23:06,215 --> 00:23:08,685
they're quite strong movements and Yeah.
389
00:23:08,685 --> 00:23:08,915
Thanks.
390
00:23:09,270 --> 00:23:15,950
Yeah, so when I first discovered A Death
Café in the Blue Mountains, it led me
391
00:23:15,950 --> 00:23:20,830
to Kerry Noonan, who was living in the
Blue Mountains at the time, and she's
392
00:23:20,860 --> 00:23:25,929
quite an instrumental person in the
whole deathy movement, and she would be
393
00:23:25,929 --> 00:23:28,110
an excellent person to, to interview.
394
00:23:28,485 --> 00:23:29,645
She's still in New South Wales.
395
00:23:29,795 --> 00:23:32,815
Yes, she has to be booked in for November.
396
00:23:33,215 --> 00:23:34,705
Yeah, oh.
397
00:23:34,865 --> 00:23:36,895
Yeah, so she's, she's going to be a
398
00:23:36,895 --> 00:23:37,365
guest.
399
00:23:37,645 --> 00:23:38,994
Oh great, oh great.
400
00:23:39,284 --> 00:23:44,744
Anyway, so I met Kerry, like she was
my first kind of real deathie that I
401
00:23:44,774 --> 00:23:51,455
met and she was co hosting the Blue
Mountains Death Cafes and I remember,
402
00:23:51,675 --> 00:23:55,774
like, I can still visualize it when
I was sitting there and sitting very
403
00:23:55,774 --> 00:24:01,185
quietly, trying to be quiet, and
listening to people's stories, and
404
00:24:01,365 --> 00:24:04,435
it was just so refreshing for me.
405
00:24:05,004 --> 00:24:09,454
Because I was so young, too, when my
first parent died, I was in my 20s, that
406
00:24:09,455 --> 00:24:14,675
was very unusual, and I didn't have any
friends who had gone through that, who was
407
00:24:14,785 --> 00:24:20,230
around me at that time, and then even when
my second parent died, That was unusual
408
00:24:20,230 --> 00:24:22,080
too, you know, I was in my thirties.
409
00:24:22,090 --> 00:24:30,160
So for me to find other people just to
talk to about anything to do with death
410
00:24:30,220 --> 00:24:32,249
was just, it was like a revelation.
411
00:24:32,250 --> 00:24:37,620
It really changed a whole lot of
things for me and meeting Kerry.
412
00:24:37,629 --> 00:24:42,569
And I ended up co hosting the death
cafes with Kerry, actually, when I
413
00:24:42,780 --> 00:24:44,730
was living there, I think for three.
414
00:24:45,034 --> 00:24:47,294
I was there for three
years in Blue Mountains.
415
00:24:47,504 --> 00:24:50,725
We'll definitely include the links
to the Death Cafe on the show notes.
416
00:24:50,725 --> 00:24:52,244
And
417
00:24:52,245 --> 00:24:56,034
I just, you mentioned that it
changed a lot of things for you.
418
00:24:56,115 --> 00:24:58,524
What were those things
that it changed Hayley?
419
00:24:58,754 --> 00:25:04,664
Oh, I guess talking to people about
things that had happened to me personally,
420
00:25:05,174 --> 00:25:10,064
which I was pretty open about anyway,
but I kind of acknowledged, I was
421
00:25:10,155 --> 00:25:13,914
starting to acknowledge just how death.
422
00:25:14,210 --> 00:25:19,300
Illiterate the communities I was living
in were, you know, and people finding it
423
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:24,460
really hard to talk about death and dying.
424
00:25:24,470 --> 00:25:28,530
And I think it kind of really not
that I ever wanted to get into grief
425
00:25:28,549 --> 00:25:33,830
counseling, but it kind of really opened
my eyes to the fact that I was not
426
00:25:33,830 --> 00:25:38,990
the only one who was really struggling
with getting the words together to
427
00:25:38,990 --> 00:25:46,054
say the right thing or to, you know,
Just be more informed about options.
428
00:25:46,054 --> 00:25:52,934
And I think, you know, while I was there
too, my brother in law died by suicide and
429
00:25:52,934 --> 00:25:56,215
I organized his funeral when I was there.
430
00:25:56,935 --> 00:26:00,575
And, you know, by that stage I
had my favorite funeral director,
431
00:26:01,955 --> 00:26:06,504
who I befriended, Amy, who's
now running tender funerals.
432
00:26:07,919 --> 00:26:08,439
Yeah, lovely.
433
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,419
Yeah, Western Sydney, I think she is.
434
00:26:11,060 --> 00:26:15,639
And Victoria Spence, I knew from
my art circles, who has her own
435
00:26:15,639 --> 00:26:18,659
funeral business called Life Rites.
436
00:26:19,549 --> 00:26:23,659
So, I got her involved, because it
was quite a traumatic death as well.
437
00:26:24,179 --> 00:26:28,229
And there was children involved
and not, not dead, but you know,
438
00:26:28,229 --> 00:26:30,219
he had small kids, you know.
439
00:26:30,219 --> 00:26:32,739
And we had that situation
where it was like.
440
00:26:32,795 --> 00:26:36,425
Like, we never talked to
Seth about what he wanted.
441
00:26:36,435 --> 00:26:41,035
He had tried, tried to kill himself a
number of times, but nobody had ever asked
442
00:26:41,035 --> 00:26:43,494
him if he actually went through with it.
443
00:26:44,415 --> 00:26:46,165
Does he want to be cremated or buried?
444
00:26:46,405 --> 00:26:50,324
Because it was kind of also that it's,
that's a difficult conversation because
445
00:26:50,324 --> 00:26:53,195
you don't want to talk about death
with somebody who attempts suicide
446
00:26:53,305 --> 00:26:55,785
all the time, but you probably do.
447
00:26:56,325 --> 00:26:56,635
Like.
448
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,740
You know, that's a whole nother space to
talk about because yeah, there's a whole
449
00:27:01,970 --> 00:27:03,700
stack of different things going on there.
450
00:27:04,810 --> 00:27:08,659
Yeah, I think I just, and because
I was semi part of that community
451
00:27:08,659 --> 00:27:13,290
and I, you know, we had his
funeral in the mechanics hall.
452
00:27:13,690 --> 00:27:15,170
We didn't have it in a church.
453
00:27:15,209 --> 00:27:18,840
We knew that he wanted to be buried,
but we didn't know where, and we tried
454
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,000
to find him a burial spot in Sydney,
which was absolutely impossible.
455
00:27:23,310 --> 00:27:25,040
So, you know, it was.
456
00:27:25,490 --> 00:27:30,009
Going through all those hoops and
we had to deal with the coroner for
457
00:27:30,009 --> 00:27:33,810
quite a long time as well because he
couldn't be identified for a while.
458
00:27:34,439 --> 00:27:37,049
All those kind of different
things that happened.
459
00:27:37,379 --> 00:27:43,070
I think from being in a death cafe,
I was A little bit more prepared
460
00:27:43,490 --> 00:27:49,610
for things to not go smoothly
or to go awry, but that's okay.
461
00:27:49,630 --> 00:27:54,200
Like I'm working it out as I go along, at
least I'm talking about it, you know, and
462
00:27:54,209 --> 00:28:00,430
at least I'm trying to help the family
and yeah, that death was quite, quite
463
00:28:00,469 --> 00:28:05,120
instrumental as well because then, which
is a whole nother story where he got.
464
00:28:05,635 --> 00:28:08,675
His body got stolen from
the back of the hearse.
465
00:28:11,924 --> 00:28:15,225
Well, the car got, the hearse got taken
away and he was in the back of it.
466
00:28:15,554 --> 00:28:16,614
Oh, you're kidding.
467
00:28:16,664 --> 00:28:18,584
That's a whole nother story as well.
468
00:28:20,215 --> 00:28:21,005
Wow.
469
00:28:21,005 --> 00:28:21,484
That's a
470
00:28:21,485 --> 00:28:22,305
strange thing.
471
00:28:22,755 --> 00:28:22,974
How
472
00:28:22,974 --> 00:28:24,105
does that even happen?
473
00:28:24,245 --> 00:28:26,224
It was very random.
474
00:28:26,855 --> 00:28:27,765
It was very rare.
475
00:28:27,825 --> 00:28:29,995
Do you want me to tell
you it's a short version?
476
00:28:29,995 --> 00:28:30,345
Of course, you
477
00:28:30,345 --> 00:28:30,545
can't
478
00:28:30,615 --> 00:28:30,655
just
479
00:28:32,655 --> 00:28:36,114
say all of that and then not follow
through with the story, Hayley.
480
00:28:36,685 --> 00:28:37,395
Come on.
481
00:28:37,544 --> 00:28:41,494
It's such a strange
story, but it ends well.
482
00:28:41,865 --> 00:28:42,625
I'll just say that.
483
00:28:42,934 --> 00:28:47,705
So we arrived in the morning at the
Mechanics Institute and met the funeral
484
00:28:47,705 --> 00:28:51,955
directors there and just to get the body
into the space, we were going to go away
485
00:28:51,955 --> 00:28:53,425
for a couple of hours and come back.
486
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,480
So, the hearse backed up, and the
two pallbearers were there, and they
487
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,760
were just coming out of the hearse
to open up the back and get the
488
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,470
trolley out to put the coffin on.
489
00:29:04,559 --> 00:29:09,590
And at that second, somebody jumped
out of the bushes, jumped into
490
00:29:09,590 --> 00:29:14,159
the hearse, with the keys were
still in the ignition as well.
491
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:16,470
They'll never do that again.
492
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,480
This person drove off with Seth
in the coffin in the back of
493
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,500
the hearse, and So literally,
494
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,730
someone, someone literally
stole the hearse.
495
00:29:28,300 --> 00:29:31,289
Yes, and we were all, there
was only a few of us there.
496
00:29:31,289 --> 00:29:35,470
There was, you know, three people from
the funeral home, my husband at the
497
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,889
time, and I, and Ramona, my daughter.
498
00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:44,750
And the florist was just arriving, and the
flowers, and she's like, what's happened?
499
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,980
And we're like, it's gone that way.
500
00:29:49,090 --> 00:29:52,080
And she's like, it's okay,
it's a dead end that way.
501
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:57,147
And so I'm calling, yeah,
I'm calling the cops.
502
00:29:57,147 --> 00:30:01,550
Yeah, I'm calling the cops.
503
00:30:01,580 --> 00:30:03,700
And I'm like, I couldn't
get the words out.
504
00:30:03,700 --> 00:30:08,970
I'm like, somebody's stolen the,
the hearse and no, somebody's
505
00:30:08,970 --> 00:30:10,760
stolen the hearse and Seth.
506
00:30:12,285 --> 00:30:13,295
And they're like, what?
507
00:30:13,745 --> 00:30:14,425
He's killed him?
508
00:30:14,495 --> 00:30:16,225
And I'm like, no, he's already dead.
509
00:30:17,455 --> 00:30:18,245
Something like that.
510
00:30:19,294 --> 00:30:20,474
Oh, Hayley.
511
00:30:20,874 --> 00:30:22,455
That is so unfortunate.
512
00:30:22,685 --> 00:30:23,065
I know.
513
00:30:23,305 --> 00:30:29,494
And, but meanwhile, as you know, I don't
know if I should say who it was actually.
514
00:30:29,995 --> 00:30:32,274
The funeral director was standing there.
515
00:30:32,464 --> 00:30:34,204
Tears down the, you know, almost.
516
00:30:35,455 --> 00:30:37,455
Oh my God, this has never
happened to me before.
517
00:30:40,305 --> 00:30:48,095
And meanwhile, Tobias, my husband, had
driven off after, after the hearse.
518
00:30:48,164 --> 00:30:52,164
And in my head, cause I saw, I
saw the person briefly and it
519
00:30:52,164 --> 00:30:53,804
looked like a younger person.
520
00:30:54,225 --> 00:30:58,505
And in my head I was thinking, Oh
my God, like, is this person on ice?
521
00:30:58,565 --> 00:31:00,285
Is Tobias going to get stabbed?
522
00:31:00,285 --> 00:31:01,805
Is there going to be another one?
523
00:31:02,185 --> 00:31:03,355
Death on our hands!
524
00:31:03,355 --> 00:31:05,075
Like, what's gonna happen?
525
00:31:05,815 --> 00:31:09,555
Anyway, so it was a dead end.
526
00:31:09,635 --> 00:31:12,805
Luckily, he did go that way and
not the Greater Western Highway,
527
00:31:13,045 --> 00:31:14,325
because he could have gone that way.
528
00:31:15,264 --> 00:31:15,665
Yeah, wow.
529
00:31:15,674 --> 00:31:16,745
But he went the other way.
530
00:31:17,085 --> 00:31:22,675
And at the end of the street was Uh, a
boys school, and they were all out playing
531
00:31:22,675 --> 00:31:30,935
rugby, and this nurse had kind of tried
to get onto the oval, but not quite got
532
00:31:30,935 --> 00:31:36,154
there, you know, and stalled, and Tobias
jumped out of his car and opened the door
533
00:31:36,154 --> 00:31:38,074
and went, what the hell are you doing?
534
00:31:38,805 --> 00:31:43,125
And this person just looked up at him
and said, I don't know where I am.
535
00:31:43,735 --> 00:31:48,445
And it turned out that the
cops arrived pretty quickly.
536
00:31:48,775 --> 00:31:52,365
It turned out that this person was
quite young in his thirties, but he
537
00:31:52,365 --> 00:32:00,995
had dementia and he just moved two days
before into a facility that was really
538
00:32:01,045 --> 00:32:02,645
quite close to where we were living.
539
00:32:03,055 --> 00:32:04,495
And he escaped.
540
00:32:05,265 --> 00:32:08,055
And nobody could find him,
and he'd been living in the
541
00:32:08,075 --> 00:32:10,035
bushes, like he got quite far.
542
00:32:10,035 --> 00:32:14,354
We were down in Wentworth Falls
and he'd walked quite far, but he
543
00:32:14,355 --> 00:32:17,245
just saw an opportunity for a car.
544
00:32:17,315 --> 00:32:20,655
He saw, must have seen the keys
and just got in it and ran off.
545
00:32:21,045 --> 00:32:24,375
So, anyway, the police are like,
do you want to make charges?
546
00:32:24,375 --> 00:32:28,425
And we're like, no, if he's okay,
then, you know, and everything's okay.
547
00:32:28,425 --> 00:32:36,215
And, you know, brought Seth, put him
in the, uh, we went home and had a
548
00:32:36,215 --> 00:32:39,984
drink, you know, and then I was like,
can I please put this on Facebook?
549
00:32:41,190 --> 00:32:42,760
Just so weird.
550
00:32:44,590 --> 00:32:46,830
You couldn't have written
a script like that.
551
00:32:46,980 --> 00:32:47,340
Really?
552
00:32:48,450 --> 00:32:51,020
I don't kind of remember what
I posted, but my friend in
553
00:32:51,030 --> 00:32:52,639
Darwin worked for the ABC.
554
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,080
And so he rang me and
went, can I do a story?
555
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,330
And I'm like, okay, but
don't name any names.
556
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,890
Like if the funeral directors or anything.
557
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:01,820
Oh yeah.
558
00:33:01,820 --> 00:33:04,060
That would have been
very attractive for them.
559
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:04,960
Yeah.
560
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:05,260
Yeah.
561
00:33:05,260 --> 00:33:08,920
So we spent like that night, like,
you know, and the funeral was fine.
562
00:33:08,930 --> 00:33:10,100
It all went well.
563
00:33:10,100 --> 00:33:12,769
And, and then later on
that night I spent like.
564
00:33:13,945 --> 00:33:21,175
Saving screen grabs of all the, it
went viral across all the, you know,
565
00:33:21,465 --> 00:33:23,475
different newspapers across the world.
566
00:33:23,475 --> 00:33:27,915
And I was taking photographs, screenshots
of all the different images that people
567
00:33:27,915 --> 00:33:33,104
were using, like in Ghana, they had
an image of a gold gilded coffin.
568
00:33:33,805 --> 00:33:37,545
You know, going into the hearse and
then in India there was like a hearse
569
00:33:37,545 --> 00:33:43,315
in front of a big ship at the port
and the story got a little bit skewed.
570
00:33:44,724 --> 00:33:47,315
Wow, they got really
creative, didn't they?
571
00:33:47,315 --> 00:33:49,954
Yes.
572
00:33:50,155 --> 00:33:50,655
Yes.
573
00:33:50,785 --> 00:33:54,365
Have you ever done an art
piece on that story, Hayley?
574
00:33:54,495 --> 00:33:55,395
I haven't.
575
00:33:55,475 --> 00:33:59,875
And I think the reason is because
it's not, now that I'm separated,
576
00:33:59,895 --> 00:34:04,444
well, you know, I'm no longer with my
husband, it's his family and I kind
577
00:34:04,444 --> 00:34:06,955
of feel like it's his story in a way.
578
00:34:06,964 --> 00:34:13,580
He's Happy for me to relay the story,
but I kind of think, you know, we'll,
579
00:34:13,590 --> 00:34:15,600
we'll, we'll just leave it as that.
580
00:34:16,190 --> 00:34:16,819
And yeah.
581
00:34:16,819 --> 00:34:17,529
Yeah,
582
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,130
going viral was good enough.
583
00:34:19,529 --> 00:34:19,909
Oh yeah.
584
00:34:20,230 --> 00:34:24,100
And it was like some strange
joke, you know, that Seth had
585
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,719
pulled, you know, for us all.
586
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,470
That was what we were all
talking about at the funeral.
587
00:34:29,470 --> 00:34:30,880
It was like, did he do this?
588
00:34:30,930 --> 00:34:31,940
Did he set this up?
589
00:34:34,140 --> 00:34:35,220
That's amazing.
590
00:34:36,830 --> 00:34:43,319
Now, we know that art can be a really
good way in which to actually challenge
591
00:34:43,540 --> 00:34:50,100
people's thoughts and also tackle,
you know, difficult subjects and We
592
00:34:50,100 --> 00:34:55,110
know that your focus has certainly
moved to death as time has gone on.
593
00:34:55,690 --> 00:34:59,680
So, tell me, what sort of
changes have you seen when people
594
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,899
interact with your installations?
595
00:35:01,899 --> 00:35:04,660
Or, have you seen any
sort of behaviour change?
596
00:35:04,660 --> 00:35:06,560
Tell me a little bit about
that around your work.
597
00:35:06,660 --> 00:35:08,610
I have, definitely.
598
00:35:08,750 --> 00:35:13,000
And I think because I've been in this
community I've been here in Castlemaine
599
00:35:13,010 --> 00:35:19,730
for nearly nine years now, it's, you know,
it's only nine or 10, 000 people here.
600
00:35:20,270 --> 00:35:26,070
So I feel like over that period of time,
like people have gotten used to me being
601
00:35:26,079 --> 00:35:31,220
the kind of deathy person that they can
stop in the street and ask a question.
602
00:35:34,535 --> 00:35:39,025
As far as artwork goes, I think, I mean,
there's a whole bunch of other artists
603
00:35:39,025 --> 00:35:42,604
who work with the theme of death too,
and it's always been there in, you
604
00:35:42,605 --> 00:35:47,295
know, since time started, hasn't it?
605
00:35:47,375 --> 00:35:55,034
Like, when I first moved to Kessel Main,
I had a studio at The Mill, which is a
606
00:35:55,045 --> 00:35:58,895
really highly visited tourist precinct.
607
00:35:59,570 --> 00:36:00,460
In Castlemaine.
608
00:36:00,470 --> 00:36:05,440
So it's full of makers and artisans
and there's a whole, you know, people
609
00:36:05,810 --> 00:36:09,790
like the ice creamery makes their own
ice cream and sells the ice cream.
610
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,919
The Austrian cafe makes their
own coffee, sells coffee.
611
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:14,750
So.
612
00:36:15,385 --> 00:36:18,205
There's a whole bunch of
artists too who sell wares.
613
00:36:18,275 --> 00:36:22,265
I don't know what the hell I
was selling, but I was selling
614
00:36:22,325 --> 00:36:24,295
me and a few other artworks.
615
00:36:24,305 --> 00:36:25,825
So I had it set up as a studio.
616
00:36:26,265 --> 00:36:28,615
I had other people's
artworks actually in there.
617
00:36:28,984 --> 00:36:34,524
And the idea was, I think I was working
on a lot of my ceramics work at the time.
618
00:36:35,260 --> 00:36:40,970
And so I had my door open on the weekends
and people could just walk in and see
619
00:36:40,970 --> 00:36:48,070
me working on artworks and, but as soon
as they walked into the space, straight
620
00:36:48,070 --> 00:36:54,720
away you'd see, well, a wicker coffin in
the space, which was, you know, something
621
00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:58,040
that just people hadn't really seen.
622
00:36:58,190 --> 00:37:01,540
That's more in the news now
than ever, more in the media.
623
00:37:02,045 --> 00:37:07,055
Or as an option, but at that point it
was, I was pretty new and I'd borrowed
624
00:37:07,055 --> 00:37:11,695
it off one of the funeral homes to
have in there and I also had one of my
625
00:37:11,695 --> 00:37:16,725
artworks, which was, I did a residency
in Senegal for a few months and I
626
00:37:16,735 --> 00:37:22,175
had, I did a whole photographic Series
about mainly dead things that I've come
627
00:37:22,175 --> 00:37:26,185
across and there was this huge billboard
behind me that was a dead dolphin
628
00:37:26,995 --> 00:37:33,065
Anyway, so people would walk in tourists
particularly on the weekend and go
629
00:37:37,155 --> 00:37:41,495
Like are they too far in to
walk back out again They kind
630
00:37:41,495 --> 00:37:43,265
of committed, you know, okay.
631
00:37:43,265 --> 00:37:45,934
Hi This is the ice
632
00:37:46,415 --> 00:37:48,665
creamery I thought I was walking Yeah,
633
00:37:50,755 --> 00:37:57,710
exactly So I think I, I could kind
of make people feel comfortable
634
00:37:57,710 --> 00:38:00,510
and welcome pretty quickly.
635
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,859
And I mean, they, you know,
you'd lock eyes with somebody
636
00:38:02,860 --> 00:38:04,309
who's just sitting there as well.
637
00:38:04,340 --> 00:38:10,419
So you've walked into the space, but
sometimes I did get families who came
638
00:38:10,420 --> 00:38:16,460
in with young children and they, they
would, I'd say about half and half when
639
00:38:16,460 --> 00:38:21,060
I, when I first opened, some people
would just walk straight out again.
640
00:38:21,070 --> 00:38:25,745
And I just, Didn't want their
kids to see anything, like I had
641
00:38:25,745 --> 00:38:30,485
skulls and, Oh, you know, and a
rack of Halloween outfits as well.
642
00:38:30,515 --> 00:38:35,544
But yeah, I think it might've been
a little bit too confrontational
643
00:38:35,555 --> 00:38:36,804
for two, for some people.
644
00:38:36,915 --> 00:38:40,585
And I get that cause it's, you know,
you're there for the day or the weekend.
645
00:38:40,595 --> 00:38:42,065
You don't want to talk
to your kids about death.
646
00:38:42,095 --> 00:38:42,685
Fair enough.
647
00:38:43,045 --> 00:38:47,395
But a lot of the times I'd be
doing projects in there where
648
00:38:47,395 --> 00:38:49,605
people could interact with me too.
649
00:38:49,625 --> 00:38:52,065
Like I did a weaving project.
650
00:38:52,295 --> 00:38:56,125
And it was about, or actually about
the children who had drowned during
651
00:38:56,125 --> 00:39:00,065
the gold rush in the botanical
gardens, which is across the road.
652
00:39:01,295 --> 00:39:05,104
So I'd, you know, people would sit down
with me and weave and I'd tell them
653
00:39:05,135 --> 00:39:06,895
about a little bit of that history.
654
00:39:07,395 --> 00:39:12,224
And the most successful project I did
in there with engaging particularly
655
00:39:12,235 --> 00:39:17,355
children though was when kids walked
in, I gave them a big black marker pen
656
00:39:18,275 --> 00:39:21,034
and I got them to write on the concrete.
657
00:39:21,225 --> 00:39:26,555
Floor and the, and it was for adults too,
of course, but it was like, write down
658
00:39:26,615 --> 00:39:32,105
a name of somebody who's died that you,
you know, whether it be a grandparent
659
00:39:32,115 --> 00:39:38,614
or a pet, or if somebody, you know, if
somebody hasn't died, who's close to
660
00:39:38,614 --> 00:39:42,925
you, there might be, you know, I had
David Bowie written down a few times.
661
00:39:43,355 --> 00:39:44,955
So, you know, there was options.
662
00:39:45,355 --> 00:39:46,435
Yeah, I really.
663
00:39:46,930 --> 00:39:53,030
Found that was a fantastic way to engage
kids and parents with their children
664
00:39:53,030 --> 00:39:56,650
too, because then they'd have that
conversation like, Oh, well, should
665
00:39:56,650 --> 00:40:02,620
we write down, you know, Nana, Nana's
name down or, and kids just being
666
00:40:02,630 --> 00:40:05,450
allowed to use a big black marker pen.
667
00:40:06,265 --> 00:40:11,125
And right on the ground, they just totally
got into it and, you know, of course,
668
00:40:11,185 --> 00:40:14,605
because my daughter would always be
doing it as well and she'd think about
669
00:40:14,605 --> 00:40:18,334
some other goldfish that we had that she
could write, you know, every time she
670
00:40:18,335 --> 00:40:21,045
came in, but she'd be drawing pictures.
671
00:40:21,315 --> 00:40:26,075
Because anyone who has had goldfish
knows you'll have a long list of names.
672
00:40:27,255 --> 00:40:28,095
Yeah, exactly.
673
00:40:29,955 --> 00:40:34,965
There was some, yeah, random names in
there, but yeah, so it was, it, uh,
674
00:40:35,005 --> 00:40:40,625
it became this collective memorial,
you know, and it was really beautiful.
675
00:40:40,625 --> 00:40:43,065
I loved it and it filled up.
676
00:40:43,345 --> 00:40:46,955
I was only there for eight months
because the council decided to up the
677
00:40:46,955 --> 00:40:51,455
rates 300 percent or something because
it was becoming such a money making
678
00:40:51,475 --> 00:40:55,675
thing for all the artists that they
thought they'd kind of make some money.
679
00:40:55,864 --> 00:40:57,255
So, you know, as an advocate.
680
00:40:57,665 --> 00:41:00,305
It was really an advocacy
space more than anything.
681
00:41:00,605 --> 00:41:06,574
It wasn't really a financially, you know,
viable thing for me to have, but yeah,
682
00:41:06,574 --> 00:41:08,575
that, that project was really special.
683
00:41:08,605 --> 00:41:11,874
And when the real estate
agent made me paint over it,
684
00:41:12,245 --> 00:41:13,735
when I moved out, I was like,
685
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:20,260
I got some great photos though, but
yeah, it was really, that was fantastic.
686
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:21,260
I loved that work.
687
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:26,470
So Hayley, you've, you've actually
positioned yourself in, in a lot of spaces
688
00:41:26,479 --> 00:41:31,269
in relation to advocacy and you're a
member of a few different organizations.
689
00:41:31,279 --> 00:41:34,100
So, Australian Home Funeral Alliance.
690
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,720
Yeah, I've written the Victorian
section for their website,
691
00:41:38,570 --> 00:41:41,440
but I'm not a member yet.
692
00:41:41,910 --> 00:41:49,180
And then, and then the Natural
Death Advocacy Network.
693
00:41:49,650 --> 00:41:50,000
Yes.
694
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:51,250
You're a member of that.
695
00:41:51,490 --> 00:41:52,097
I'm on the committee.
696
00:41:52,097 --> 00:41:56,630
So tell me a little bit about, you know,
why is it important to you and what
697
00:41:56,630 --> 00:42:01,629
motivates you to be part of this and
also you host a program called Dead Air
698
00:42:01,710 --> 00:42:06,320
and that's actually on the local radio
station up there every Monday is it?
699
00:42:06,490 --> 00:42:06,740
Yep.
700
00:42:07,839 --> 00:42:14,199
Yeah, so what makes you, you know, taken
you from, you know, that those times
701
00:42:14,199 --> 00:42:19,025
up in the Blue Mountains where you met
You know, Kerry and you started sort
702
00:42:19,025 --> 00:42:21,245
of being involved in the death cafes
703
00:42:21,785 --> 00:42:21,955
to
704
00:42:21,955 --> 00:42:26,245
where you are now where you are
actually very much at the forefront
705
00:42:26,624 --> 00:42:30,255
of changing the face and talking
about death literacy in Australia.
706
00:42:30,355 --> 00:42:34,884
I think another ingredient
in my journey into this.
707
00:42:35,345 --> 00:42:39,225
area of advocacy is being a librarian too.
708
00:42:39,625 --> 00:42:44,575
So when I moved to Kessel, Maine, I ended
up getting a job at the local library.
709
00:42:45,195 --> 00:42:51,924
And I think that became a space
as well for talking to people.
710
00:42:52,195 --> 00:42:55,435
Like I'm a front of
house kind of a person.
711
00:42:55,435 --> 00:42:58,405
So that kind of inspired me.
712
00:42:58,705 --> 00:43:03,875
As well to kind of get the message
out to the community, because
713
00:43:03,875 --> 00:43:08,115
that was an ideal space as well as
the studio to meet people and to.
714
00:43:09,070 --> 00:43:13,340
Become part of the community
and engage, you know, you've
715
00:43:13,340 --> 00:43:14,700
got a captive audience there.
716
00:43:15,090 --> 00:43:16,580
They've come to you again, you know.
717
00:43:17,379 --> 00:43:21,660
Yeah, so I guess that would have
been instrumental as well in
718
00:43:21,660 --> 00:43:24,630
me deciding to be more active.
719
00:43:25,025 --> 00:43:31,045
In various groups that were established
because I needed that information
720
00:43:31,045 --> 00:43:33,685
to, to impart on my community.
721
00:43:34,065 --> 00:43:38,344
So I became quite interested
in environmentally friendly
722
00:43:38,344 --> 00:43:39,984
ways to dispose of your body.
723
00:43:40,465 --> 00:43:41,955
And I decided to do.
724
00:43:42,245 --> 00:43:46,415
A few talks in the different libraries
in the regional areas, because
725
00:43:46,545 --> 00:43:50,045
Castle Main Library is also part of
the Goldfields Libraries, and that
726
00:43:50,045 --> 00:43:55,454
extends down to Gisborne and way
up to Bort and Pyramid Hill in the
727
00:43:55,454 --> 00:43:57,614
regions, which are a bit more remote.
728
00:43:57,615 --> 00:43:59,299
So.
729
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:04,080
I did a few presentations one
year for Dying to No Day and
730
00:44:04,100 --> 00:44:05,980
they were received so well.
731
00:44:06,510 --> 00:44:12,540
I talked about alkaline hydrolysis, water
cremation, natural organic reduction,
732
00:44:12,589 --> 00:44:15,330
human composting and natural burial.
733
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:20,890
And so I'd been a member of the Natural
Death Advocacy Network when it started.
734
00:44:21,420 --> 00:44:25,080
It was a bit silent for a little
bit and then it kind of pepped up.
735
00:44:25,140 --> 00:44:29,430
And when it pepped up I decided
that I'd jump on board and get
736
00:44:29,430 --> 00:44:30,970
onto the committee and learn.
737
00:44:30,970 --> 00:44:37,110
It's all about learning more and
also, you know, finding people with
738
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,460
the same kind of ethos as yourself.
739
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:47,590
And when you're kind of just a one woman
person, you know, in your community and
740
00:44:47,630 --> 00:44:52,200
sure there's people that You can talk
to about death, but for all that really
741
00:44:52,210 --> 00:44:58,530
juicy information, you really need to
have those peers that you can rely on and
742
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,919
talk to about things that are happening.
743
00:45:00,919 --> 00:45:06,569
And I guess meeting Beck Lyons is been
amazing because she's just a wealth of
744
00:45:06,599 --> 00:45:08,939
information and she's so personable.
745
00:45:09,049 --> 00:45:12,459
And so she's part of the chair of the.
746
00:45:13,135 --> 00:45:15,575
Natural Death Advocacy Network.
747
00:45:15,685 --> 00:45:21,355
It's a way for me to stay on top of what's
happening around, particularly Australia.
748
00:45:22,145 --> 00:45:24,474
And so that I can keep up to date.
749
00:45:24,475 --> 00:45:28,305
Like I love going to workshops
and seminars and festivals
750
00:45:28,305 --> 00:45:29,154
all to do with death.
751
00:45:29,154 --> 00:45:31,734
I try and do all that kind
of stuff all the time.
752
00:45:32,034 --> 00:45:37,715
And I'm always putting myself in
Publications or, you know, trying to get
753
00:45:37,735 --> 00:45:40,025
the word out in different ways as well.
754
00:45:40,385 --> 00:45:44,085
And I guess radio became
one of those ways, too.
755
00:45:44,325 --> 00:45:48,884
One of the things that you do when you
move to Castle Mane is you realize that
756
00:45:48,884 --> 00:45:52,725
it's, I mean, I think most people move
here because it's a really creative
757
00:45:52,725 --> 00:45:57,884
town and it has a really fantastic live
music scene and a lot of venues and.
758
00:45:58,420 --> 00:45:59,720
Yeah, it's just pumping.
759
00:45:59,780 --> 00:46:02,480
It reminded me a lot of Darwin,
actually, as soon as I moved here,
760
00:46:02,490 --> 00:46:04,230
I was like, Oh, I found my home.
761
00:46:04,790 --> 00:46:09,380
But one of the things that happens is
you, you end up listening to main FM,
762
00:46:09,390 --> 00:46:11,489
which is our community radio station.
763
00:46:11,970 --> 00:46:15,540
And I, I mean, I always tend to
do that wherever I live anyway.
764
00:46:15,540 --> 00:46:19,380
I kind of try and tune in to what's
happening locally, but main FM
765
00:46:19,390 --> 00:46:24,650
is actually like, it has a great
subscriber ship and membership and
766
00:46:24,650 --> 00:46:26,120
people are really invested in it.
767
00:46:26,559 --> 00:46:31,995
And that's what I. What I really love
about this town as well is that people
768
00:46:31,995 --> 00:46:35,945
are really invested in the town, which I
didn't find in the Blue Mountains at all.
769
00:46:36,495 --> 00:46:40,634
I think that, you know, for me,
it felt like everybody was focused
770
00:46:40,634 --> 00:46:43,795
on Sydney and all the interesting
people were doing things in
771
00:46:43,805 --> 00:46:46,015
Sydney, whereas in Castle, Maine.
772
00:46:46,565 --> 00:46:49,955
It's like, we don't feel the need
to go to Melbourne to do that.
773
00:46:49,955 --> 00:46:51,995
We've got everything happening here.
774
00:46:52,025 --> 00:46:55,265
Like, it's really hard to get to Melbourne
because there's so much happening.
775
00:46:55,295 --> 00:46:56,685
Yep, that is very true.
776
00:46:56,734 --> 00:46:57,665
So, Main.
777
00:46:57,665 --> 00:47:01,685
fm has become like this, another
community to be involved in.
778
00:47:02,154 --> 00:47:06,325
And there's, you know, there's
over 70 shows on the grid.
779
00:47:06,970 --> 00:47:09,170
And that can have one or two people in it.
780
00:47:09,180 --> 00:47:11,160
So it's really active.
781
00:47:11,810 --> 00:47:15,400
And there's all sorts of things
from music to talk shows.
782
00:47:15,829 --> 00:47:20,690
So when my space closed down at the
mill, I was like, how am I going to
783
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:27,660
get that feeling again of like engaging
with people and really thinking about my
784
00:47:27,660 --> 00:47:30,200
practice as a socially engaged practice?
785
00:47:30,220 --> 00:47:31,940
Like, how am I going to do that?
786
00:47:31,970 --> 00:47:36,850
I don't have time to be making,
making work, you know, cause
787
00:47:36,850 --> 00:47:38,960
I'm, I have to work full time.
788
00:47:38,990 --> 00:47:43,530
I'm solo parenting, you know,
and on these committees.
789
00:47:43,890 --> 00:47:45,990
It's like, what am I going to do?
790
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,910
So I already had a few friends that
were, and I'd already done a few
791
00:47:49,919 --> 00:47:51,830
interviews with other friends on main.
792
00:47:51,830 --> 00:47:52,670
fm about.
793
00:47:53,295 --> 00:47:59,725
My practice or whatever death related
stuff and I thought, Oh, maybe I need to
794
00:48:00,575 --> 00:48:02,945
have a show or just about death and dying.
795
00:48:02,945 --> 00:48:06,674
And I put it to the program
manager and to the committee and
796
00:48:06,674 --> 00:48:08,895
they're like, heck yes, do it.
797
00:48:11,864 --> 00:48:16,495
So even though it feels like,
you know, it's, it's live every
798
00:48:16,495 --> 00:48:18,125
Monday, cause I've just gone back.
799
00:48:18,125 --> 00:48:22,485
I had a bit of a break cause of my
work commitments, but it's a little
800
00:48:22,485 --> 00:48:23,975
bit different cause it's one way.
801
00:48:23,975 --> 00:48:25,175
So I'm talking to.
802
00:48:25,715 --> 00:48:29,635
You know, people out there in the ether,
whether they're listening to it streaming
803
00:48:29,645 --> 00:48:37,004
or listening live on their wireless, it
still feels like I'm engaging because I
804
00:48:37,004 --> 00:48:42,095
also edit it and upload it later so that
people like the millennials can listen to
805
00:48:42,095 --> 00:48:46,185
it later, or people that can't listen to
it on a Monday morning, like a podcast.
806
00:48:46,805 --> 00:48:49,555
So it feels like it was, it's one way.
807
00:48:49,950 --> 00:48:54,420
But I do get a lot of texts in, and I
get a lot of feedback through social
808
00:48:54,420 --> 00:48:56,350
media that people are listening.
809
00:48:56,650 --> 00:49:02,719
I get a lot of people contacting me
with suggestions for interviews or for
810
00:49:02,780 --> 00:49:06,489
articles, because one of the things I
love doing on it is actually reading
811
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:11,739
articles on it, because it's like reading
to adults, like who does, who, who gets
812
00:49:11,739 --> 00:49:14,839
to listen to that, you know, like, yeah.
813
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:15,489
Yeah.
814
00:49:15,489 --> 00:49:15,979
Yeah.
815
00:49:16,439 --> 00:49:18,639
And when I was working in the.
816
00:49:19,005 --> 00:49:20,055
Men's prison here.
817
00:49:20,055 --> 00:49:21,905
We've got three prisons in Castle Main.
818
00:49:21,905 --> 00:49:23,465
So that's a big implore.
819
00:49:23,515 --> 00:49:27,265
But I was working in the medium
security prison for a little bit.
820
00:49:27,835 --> 00:49:32,064
And I know that some of the prisoners
were listening to Main FM. They tuned in.
821
00:49:32,075 --> 00:49:36,104
There was a, there wasn't many locals
who were in there, but they'd kind
822
00:49:36,105 --> 00:49:40,215
of come across Main FM because yeah,
they, They're not allowed internet,
823
00:49:40,465 --> 00:49:43,205
so they can't listen to streaming.
824
00:49:43,665 --> 00:49:45,285
So it's live radio for them.
825
00:49:45,285 --> 00:49:47,755
And so it means it's accessible.
826
00:49:47,755 --> 00:49:53,565
Live radio is accessible to a whole bunch
of people that you might not engage with.
827
00:49:53,595 --> 00:49:56,364
Like there's people who are
homeless, who are living in cars.
828
00:49:56,385 --> 00:49:58,755
They can tune into a radio station.
829
00:49:59,145 --> 00:50:01,725
There's, you know, people
who have different.
830
00:50:01,995 --> 00:50:06,645
Disabilities, you know, who might not
have access to print, you know, they
831
00:50:06,645 --> 00:50:12,205
can't read media and the prisoners,
like, there's a whole bunch of people
832
00:50:12,735 --> 00:50:19,164
that you kind of don't, don't think
about when, if, you know, people that
833
00:50:19,164 --> 00:50:24,005
don't, can't afford, there's plenty,
being a librarian here in Castle, Maine
834
00:50:24,335 --> 00:50:28,244
has made me realize that actually our
literacy rate is quite Thank you so much.
835
00:50:28,535 --> 00:50:30,275
low in this shire.
836
00:50:30,825 --> 00:50:34,175
You feel like you're in a little bit
of a bubble of all this awesomeness in
837
00:50:34,175 --> 00:50:37,825
Castle, Maine, but if you just reach
out a little bit further, there's a
838
00:50:37,825 --> 00:50:42,755
whole bunch of kids that are missing
out on good reading, you know?
839
00:50:42,795 --> 00:50:45,145
So, and there's a whole
bunch of people that.
840
00:50:45,525 --> 00:50:49,365
Can't afford to have internet
or can't afford to access that.
841
00:50:49,495 --> 00:50:54,015
So, I mean, libraries are really important
for that, for them to be able to come
842
00:50:54,015 --> 00:50:58,894
in and use free internet or, you know,
even just to be around books, you know,
843
00:50:58,895 --> 00:51:06,955
so there's a lot of great things about
live radio and I love the idea that
844
00:51:06,965 --> 00:51:12,595
somebody, yeah, can just tune in and
unexpectedly hear me talking about.
845
00:51:13,190 --> 00:51:20,079
I don't know, anything like, yeah, natural
burial or necrophilia, like, you know,
846
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,839
it kind of You certainly don't get
that on mainstream radio, Hayley.
847
00:51:25,339 --> 00:51:29,023
Yeah, I did a Valentine's
special on it on New Year.
848
00:51:29,023 --> 00:51:29,839
Yes, you
849
00:51:31,619 --> 00:51:32,059
did.
850
00:51:34,039 --> 00:51:39,865
Now Um, there is another artwork that
when I think of your oeuvre of work
851
00:51:39,905 --> 00:51:46,115
that you've got, and that is really the,
the role of ritual that plays quite a
852
00:51:46,115 --> 00:51:51,655
central sort of aspect to two of your,
say they're performance pieces that where
853
00:51:51,655 --> 00:51:55,645
you, and the ones that I'm thinking of are
the ones where you use the cooling bed.
854
00:51:56,415 --> 00:51:58,825
Um, I find that fascinating.
855
00:51:59,075 --> 00:52:02,485
So if you could explain that to our
audience, that would be wonderful.
856
00:52:02,845 --> 00:52:08,815
Yeah, so a couple of times I've hired
a cooling bed off Death Dwellers.
857
00:52:09,325 --> 00:52:15,585
Cooling beds are a contraption that you
put underneath, like a big bit of metal.
858
00:52:15,970 --> 00:52:21,510
That's hooked up to a generator that
freezes, that you put under a dead
859
00:52:21,510 --> 00:52:24,020
body to slow down decomposition.
860
00:52:24,510 --> 00:52:29,460
And the reason that you would do that
is if you're waiting for family to
861
00:52:29,460 --> 00:52:33,320
arrive because they want to spend
time with the person who's died.
862
00:52:33,949 --> 00:52:36,710
Or it's really, really hot day.
863
00:52:37,540 --> 00:52:41,840
And, you know, you do, because you
can have your person at home for
864
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:43,680
as long as you like in Victoria.
865
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:48,070
It's usually around average of three
days that people have had enough.
866
00:52:48,620 --> 00:52:53,800
But yeah, so there's other ways that you
can, I mean, you can just use ice as well.
867
00:52:53,810 --> 00:52:56,670
Somebody can run down the
road and grab bags of ice.
868
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:06,085
I actually really love the mechanics of
this instrument and Yeah, so I've hired
869
00:53:06,085 --> 00:53:11,855
it a couple of times, and my favorite
time that I used it in a performance
870
00:53:11,875 --> 00:53:18,355
was when at Bendigo Art Gallery there
was a beautiful exhibition called
871
00:53:18,745 --> 00:53:20,574
Gothic Beauty, I think it was called.
872
00:53:21,165 --> 00:53:26,190
And they built me a, Little room in the
middle of the gallery that was completely
873
00:53:26,190 --> 00:53:33,180
dark and black and I set up the cooling
bed on a bed and I had a black quilt
874
00:53:33,270 --> 00:53:38,349
over the top of it and I actually dressed
up in my Victorian morning gear as well
875
00:53:38,750 --> 00:53:43,950
And I didn't have times or anything
that people could come in I just kind of
876
00:53:43,980 --> 00:53:50,535
winged it again like I normally do what
people would do is come in and I Just
877
00:53:50,535 --> 00:53:52,805
say welcome, you can lie down on the bed.
878
00:53:53,355 --> 00:53:58,025
What I want you to do, I had a script
that I read, it was very short, but it was
879
00:53:58,035 --> 00:54:03,914
like, I wanted them to consider their own
mortality and really think about that when
880
00:54:03,914 --> 00:54:06,645
they're lying down on this cold plate.
881
00:54:06,924 --> 00:54:10,770
Because this is, Something
that you'll never get to
882
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,900
experience like when you're dead.
883
00:54:14,010 --> 00:54:17,900
Yeah, I kind of explained
briefly what it was and you won't
884
00:54:17,900 --> 00:54:19,810
experience this when you're dead.
885
00:54:20,020 --> 00:54:24,019
And it's something you possibly, this
is the only time you'll experience
886
00:54:24,019 --> 00:54:25,780
it when you're alive as well.
887
00:54:26,329 --> 00:54:31,510
So here's a really great kind of
liminal space for you to really
888
00:54:31,830 --> 00:54:38,350
consider your own mortality and your
death and just lie as long as you like.
889
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,730
And listen to me read murder ballads.
890
00:54:43,720 --> 00:54:49,180
So I had a whole list of songs that I'd
printed out, and I just read them, because
891
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:51,610
I obviously like reading to adults.
892
00:54:54,020 --> 00:54:54,300
But, um.
893
00:54:54,310 --> 00:54:54,700
I am
894
00:54:54,700 --> 00:54:56,579
picking up on that theme, yep.
895
00:54:57,350 --> 00:54:59,249
Yeah, and they could lie
as long as they liked.
896
00:54:59,720 --> 00:55:00,630
It was actually quite.
897
00:55:01,685 --> 00:55:03,355
time of year, I think, as well.
898
00:55:03,375 --> 00:55:04,675
Oh, no, that was another time.
899
00:55:04,675 --> 00:55:05,615
I did it in Canberra.
900
00:55:05,965 --> 00:55:10,685
But, my God, of 40 degree days, and
I could not get people off that bed.
901
00:55:10,984 --> 00:55:15,554
Like, I had, like, constant stream of
hundreds of people at this festival.
902
00:55:15,555 --> 00:55:17,595
Like, like, anyway, that's another story.
903
00:55:18,525 --> 00:55:19,014
Yeah, so.
904
00:55:19,015 --> 00:55:19,504
Especially
905
00:55:19,504 --> 00:55:19,994
in
906
00:55:19,994 --> 00:55:20,154
Canberra.
907
00:55:20,225 --> 00:55:21,975
Yeah, so.
908
00:55:22,855 --> 00:55:26,445
Yeah, it was, it was really,
it was a quite an intimate
909
00:55:26,455 --> 00:55:29,065
space, and it was very simple.
910
00:55:30,835 --> 00:55:35,444
Yeah, and I just kept going, like, I
think I did it for like, I don't know,
911
00:55:35,465 --> 00:55:37,345
four hours or something non stop.
912
00:55:37,414 --> 00:55:41,014
And tell me, how did people
react, Hayley, when they lay down?
913
00:55:41,015 --> 00:55:45,094
Like what, what were the sort of
things that you were seeing in people
914
00:55:45,094 --> 00:55:47,295
and, and what they were experiencing?
915
00:55:47,485 --> 00:55:49,445
Most people did what they were told.
916
00:55:51,825 --> 00:55:55,104
So, it's funny, because it's kind of.
917
00:55:55,615 --> 00:55:59,415
Yeah, you're telling somebody to
do, like, lie in a very vulnerable
918
00:55:59,415 --> 00:56:02,695
position, I guess, and they don't
know what exactly I'm going to do.
919
00:56:03,615 --> 00:56:04,885
But it's in an art gallery.
920
00:56:04,885 --> 00:56:06,435
That's the other thing that's different.
921
00:56:06,445 --> 00:56:11,845
So, people come to a gallery and they
know they're going to engage with art.
922
00:56:11,855 --> 00:56:16,645
It's very different from when you set
up something like that in a motel.
923
00:56:16,665 --> 00:56:17,654
So
924
00:56:17,655 --> 00:56:18,045
Yeah.
925
00:56:18,705 --> 00:56:19,345
Wow.
926
00:56:19,435 --> 00:56:20,345
Have you done that before?
927
00:56:20,575 --> 00:56:21,195
Yeah.
928
00:56:21,275 --> 00:56:21,955
In Canberra.
929
00:56:22,005 --> 00:56:22,805
Oh, it was in a motel.
930
00:56:22,995 --> 00:56:24,005
It wasn't a motel.
931
00:56:24,015 --> 00:56:25,325
Well, it was more like a hotel.
932
00:56:25,355 --> 00:56:28,005
It was a hotel, but it was
kind of felt like a motel.
933
00:56:28,290 --> 00:56:30,210
And that was part of a bigger festival.
934
00:56:30,220 --> 00:56:30,390
And
935
00:56:30,390 --> 00:56:32,310
what was the difference between the two?
936
00:56:32,430 --> 00:56:35,930
Were people more reticent to
actually lie down in a motel?
937
00:56:36,020 --> 00:56:40,500
Yes, it was on the bed that I was
sleeping on at night time, and I'd
938
00:56:40,500 --> 00:56:42,450
put it on the bed during the day.
939
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:42,969
That's a
940
00:56:43,030 --> 00:56:44,569
little bit too close
to your art, isn't it?
941
00:56:44,985 --> 00:56:50,685
Yeah, it was like a double, like
it was a townhouse kind of hotel.
942
00:56:50,735 --> 00:56:53,435
So it was an art festival, but
there's a whole stack of all sorts
943
00:56:53,435 --> 00:56:54,965
of things happening all the time.
944
00:56:54,965 --> 00:56:59,305
And people did engage with it, but
also at the same time, it was so busy
945
00:56:59,335 --> 00:57:01,145
that I didn't get to talk to everyone.
946
00:57:01,765 --> 00:57:02,247
So Yeah.
947
00:57:02,247 --> 00:57:02,459
Yeah.
948
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:07,690
I kind of, I didn't really get good
feedback from that experience, but
949
00:57:07,720 --> 00:57:10,950
I could hear people talking about it
when I was walking around the next
950
00:57:10,950 --> 00:57:13,680
day, like having experienced it.
951
00:57:13,700 --> 00:57:16,560
So as far as I'm
concerned, my job is done.
952
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:18,220
Like people are talking about it.
953
00:57:18,230 --> 00:57:22,179
They knew what it was for,
you know, like real life.
954
00:57:22,180 --> 00:57:25,250
But when I was in a
gallery setting, I guess.
955
00:57:25,985 --> 00:57:31,095
People are more in tune to
something peculiar going on, you
956
00:57:31,095 --> 00:57:33,645
know, or it's in an art context.
957
00:57:34,385 --> 00:57:41,724
It's like, you know, the last work I did
for Radical Fields in Glen Lyon this year,
958
00:57:42,885 --> 00:57:47,874
Radical Fields is curated by Ryan Kennedy
and he lives out there and his friend's
959
00:57:47,884 --> 00:57:49,775
property is just this massive paddock.
960
00:57:50,295 --> 00:57:54,725
And he got, I think it was six
artists to do work in the paddock
961
00:57:55,315 --> 00:57:57,464
and it was just for a day event.
962
00:57:57,515 --> 00:57:57,875
And so.
963
00:57:58,675 --> 00:58:03,185
I dug a grave, and this is kind
of a similar work in a way.
964
00:58:03,225 --> 00:58:08,605
What I wanted to do, it was called
750mm under, because lots of people
965
00:58:08,635 --> 00:58:14,715
know the six feet under kind of concept,
but not everybody knows the fact that
966
00:58:14,914 --> 00:58:20,075
for a natural burial, you only need
that amount of soil above you legally.
967
00:58:20,510 --> 00:58:24,520
To, because it's about decomposing
quickly and going into the earth and
968
00:58:25,260 --> 00:58:31,530
anyway, so I thought hilariously, I
rocked up in the morning and going
969
00:58:31,530 --> 00:58:35,559
with my shovel because Ryan had said
to me, Oh yeah, the soil's great.
970
00:58:35,609 --> 00:58:40,680
Like on this side, like where I was on
the other side, it's a bit rocky, but
971
00:58:40,690 --> 00:58:47,165
you know, You get this far down and it's
rock and I was like, Oh my God, what is
972
00:58:47,165 --> 00:58:49,785
this artwork going to be for one day?
973
00:58:51,605 --> 00:58:58,125
But lucky for me, there was a digger,
like a guy, the local guys, who was
974
00:58:58,134 --> 00:59:01,645
already helping another artist who
was doing soil samples with a borer.
975
00:59:02,114 --> 00:59:04,435
Oh wow, you are so lucky.
976
00:59:04,575 --> 00:59:04,825
My God.
977
00:59:05,075 --> 00:59:07,035
See, this is me winging it all the time.
978
00:59:07,055 --> 00:59:10,625
I'm like, I'll come together, no worries.
979
00:59:11,095 --> 00:59:12,875
Anyway, James ended up.
980
00:59:13,335 --> 00:59:14,885
digging the grave for me.
981
00:59:14,975 --> 00:59:15,565
Thank goodness.
982
00:59:15,995 --> 00:59:19,125
But that work was fantastic.
983
00:59:19,135 --> 00:59:23,705
And I got the best feedback from
people and it was unexpected as well.
984
00:59:23,715 --> 00:59:27,805
So I got down in it like before
everybody came, like I got there
985
00:59:27,805 --> 00:59:29,425
quite early and it got dug and.
986
00:59:30,345 --> 00:59:34,505
It was beautiful in there, like you laid
down, it was cool, it was in summer, the
987
00:59:34,505 --> 00:59:39,495
heat of summer, it was cool and it was
quiet and all you could hear was the bees
988
00:59:39,585 --> 00:59:41,675
slowly going across every now and again.
989
00:59:41,855 --> 00:59:43,005
Oh wow.
990
00:59:43,055 --> 00:59:48,785
Yeah, it was so beautiful and the amazing,
it was like a James Turrell artwork of
991
00:59:48,795 --> 00:59:52,385
just blue colour in a rectangle above you.
992
00:59:52,395 --> 00:59:57,125
So again, it was kind of like I got
people, if they wanted to, to get in.
993
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:02,450
Into the grave and again, consider
their own mortality and while
994
01:00:02,450 --> 01:00:06,280
they were down there, I would
talk to them about natural burial.
995
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:12,260
So it was more of an advocacy kind of
role, but it was, yeah, it's, I mean,
996
01:00:12,260 --> 01:00:13,660
it's all part of my art practice.
997
01:00:13,660 --> 01:00:18,260
I mean, I, I consider the radio show
part of my art practice as well.
998
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:25,945
But yeah, so radical fields, Like,
yeah, everybody got fantastic, had
999
01:00:25,945 --> 01:00:28,695
a fantastic time, in the grave.
1000
01:00:31,155 --> 01:00:32,165
So, what's next
1001
01:00:32,165 --> 01:00:33,035
for you, Hayley?
1002
01:00:33,125 --> 01:00:37,145
Well, I'm doing Radical Fields
again, but I'm not quite sure what
1003
01:00:37,145 --> 01:00:39,155
I'm going to do this time around.
1004
01:00:39,155 --> 01:00:40,875
I haven't quite thought about it.
1005
01:00:41,505 --> 01:00:43,715
You know, sort it through, yet.
1006
01:00:44,525 --> 01:00:45,955
I do have a few ideas.
1007
01:00:45,965 --> 01:00:52,435
I've got a few ideas for shroud artwork,
but I'm just need to, because I like to
1008
01:00:52,445 --> 01:00:58,195
stay true to my word in a way, it's, I've
got some beautiful patterns for shrouds,
1009
01:00:58,195 --> 01:01:00,295
but I'd like to put my own photography.
1010
01:01:01,450 --> 01:01:09,180
Onto the shrouds, but I'd like the ink
to be kosher, so I'd like the shroud
1011
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:13,240
to be an artwork, but also something
that somebody could buy to use to
1012
01:01:13,250 --> 01:01:16,030
be buried in a natural burial site.
1013
01:01:16,030 --> 01:01:25,040
So I want it to be able to decompose well
and not be, you know, a bad ink product.
1014
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:29,860
That's you know, I'm not sure like
yeah, I've had that idea for a while
1015
01:01:29,940 --> 01:01:35,740
I've had lots of ideas, but it's like
when you work full time I'm kind of
1016
01:01:36,190 --> 01:01:38,310
yeah, I don't know what I'm doing
1017
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:45,500
I've got different ideas, you know Art
is kind of the radio show is sustaining
1018
01:01:45,500 --> 01:01:51,730
me in that creative way for a little
bit But I have been talking to some
1019
01:01:51,740 --> 01:01:57,180
fellow Independent death workers who
I'm very good friends with in Melbourne,
1020
01:01:57,730 --> 01:02:01,820
particularly, and I don't know, I
think there's a bit of a critical mass
1021
01:02:01,820 --> 01:02:07,680
happening at the moment where people in
the industry are starting to realise that
1022
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:15,880
we are already and can be independent
funeral consultants, in a way, like, we
1023
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:17,390
don't actually need a physical funeral.
1024
01:02:19,105 --> 01:02:27,395
If we're talking to families or people
about family led funerals and home
1025
01:02:27,395 --> 01:02:32,125
based care in end of life, you know,
all these kinds of things, there
1026
01:02:32,125 --> 01:02:37,005
might be something that I consider
doing and leaving full time work.
1027
01:02:37,355 --> 01:02:40,445
You know, planning funerals are events.
1028
01:02:41,060 --> 01:02:47,460
And hopefully, you know, fun events for
some of them that are always fun, but
1029
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:52,380
you know, I know venues and I know bands
and I know a lot of creative people
1030
01:02:52,380 --> 01:03:00,880
and you know, I know a band called
Dead, um, who come from Kessel Maid and
1031
01:03:00,890 --> 01:03:03,020
friends with them, you know, it's like.
1032
01:03:03,450 --> 01:03:09,350
I could create a really, or help create
a really fantastic funeral for people
1033
01:03:09,350 --> 01:03:14,390
in the community, but also empower
them to do it themselves as well.
1034
01:03:15,020 --> 01:03:16,830
And I think there's a lot.
1035
01:03:17,565 --> 01:03:19,225
I think the timing's kind of right.
1036
01:03:19,435 --> 01:03:22,835
You know, we have two funeral
homes here in Castle Main.
1037
01:03:23,205 --> 01:03:26,535
One of them has just been taken
over by a major corporation.
1038
01:03:26,795 --> 01:03:31,935
So I can now only tell people that
one of them is family owned and run.
1039
01:03:32,015 --> 01:03:35,905
And for the last few years, people
have come to me and they don't
1040
01:03:35,935 --> 01:03:40,515
want those conventional funerals
that they go to quite often.
1041
01:03:40,905 --> 01:03:44,755
So I've been suggesting other
funeral places that might
1042
01:03:44,755 --> 01:03:46,675
be able to help them out.
1043
01:03:46,885 --> 01:03:48,165
that are further afield.
1044
01:03:48,605 --> 01:03:54,455
So, a lot of my community are starting to
look outside the community, and I think
1045
01:03:54,455 --> 01:04:00,255
it's the right time for me and for, I
mean, we've got a really strong death
1046
01:04:00,255 --> 01:04:03,055
doula community here in Central Victoria.
1047
01:04:03,605 --> 01:04:09,375
I think there's a real joy for that
compassionate communities model, and
1048
01:04:09,375 --> 01:04:11,315
I think we're already doing it here.
1049
01:04:11,595 --> 01:04:18,785
Really quite well, but to kind of link
everyone together in the end of life space
1050
01:04:19,275 --> 01:04:24,675
and the death space, like, I think it's
going to be a natural thing for me to do.
1051
01:04:25,575 --> 01:04:30,285
And I have those fantastic peers in
Melbourne too, and fantastic funeral
1052
01:04:30,285 --> 01:04:36,165
homes outside of Castle Mane will
really help me, I think, do that.
1053
01:04:36,955 --> 01:04:39,089
So, I think that's where I'm.
1054
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:45,340
Going to end up, but it's just a matter
of like trying to work out financially,
1055
01:04:45,380 --> 01:04:47,480
you know, how that might happen
1056
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:51,780
Well, that sounds like we're definitely
going to be watching this space and seeing
1057
01:04:51,780 --> 01:04:54,260
what that evolved into Haley Yeah, me too.
1058
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:56,870
Is there anything else you'd
like to share with our listeners?
1059
01:04:57,095 --> 01:04:58,275
We could listen to Dead Air.
1060
01:05:00,565 --> 01:05:04,355
We'll be putting a link into Dead Air,
don't you worry, so they can certainly
1061
01:05:04,355 --> 01:05:08,985
tune in and, and certainly to NDAN so
they can learn more information too, so.
1062
01:05:09,335 --> 01:05:13,205
NDAN's like a wealth of information
with their resources now, like there's
1063
01:05:13,205 --> 01:05:14,705
some really good information there.
1064
01:05:14,885 --> 01:05:18,365
Yeah, there's some, some great
information, so we'll definitely
1065
01:05:18,365 --> 01:05:20,545
include that in the links
in the show notes as well.
1066
01:05:21,015 --> 01:05:21,415
Thank you
1067
01:05:21,415 --> 01:05:23,195
so much for being with us today Hayley.
1068
01:05:23,265 --> 01:05:25,585
No worries, it was lovely to speak to you.
1069
01:05:28,740 --> 01:05:32,160
We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,
1070
01:05:32,470 --> 01:05:34,060
brought to you by Critical Info.
1071
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:39,260
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1072
01:05:39,260 --> 01:05:41,180
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1073
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:42,400
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1074
01:05:42,570 --> 01:05:43,680
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1075
01:05:43,740 --> 01:05:46,680
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1076
01:05:46,860 --> 01:05:51,000
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1077
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:52,740
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1078
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:54,390
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1079
01:05:54,540 --> 01:05:55,530
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1080
01:05:55,530 --> 01:05:59,460
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1081
01:05:59,460 --> 01:06:05,640
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Read Less
Resources
- Visit the Website: Natural Death Advocacy Network (NDAN)
- Visit the Website: Death Cafes
- Tune in Hayley’s Radio Show: Dead Air
- My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?
- Our guide, ‘My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?’ provides practical steps for the hours and days after a loved one's death. Purchase it here.
- Support Services
If you're feeling overwhelmed by grief, find support through our resources and bereavement services here.
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