Eco-Friendly Farewells: Water Cremation’s Splash in the Deathcare Industry
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About this episode
Ever wondered if there's a kinder way to say goodbye to your loved ones? Most of us are aware of burials and cremations, but have you heard of water cremation?
In this eye-opening episode, we dive into the world of water cremation with Luke Cripps, co-founder of Alluvium Water Cremations in Tasmania. Discover how this innovative process is revolutionising the way we approach death care in Australia.
Luke takes us on a fascinating journey through the ins and outs of water cremation, also known as alkaline hydrolysis. We explore how this process differs from traditional flame cremation and burial, and why many families are finding comfort in its gentler approach. From the soothing sound of trickling water to the preservation of more remains, water cremation offers a unique and environmentally friendly option for those looking to make mindful choices about their final disposition.
But it's not just about the science. Luke shares the challenges of bringing this new technology to Australia, navigating complex regulations, and the surprising reactions from families. We discuss the importance of informed consent in death care and how water cremation is opening up new conversations about choice and dignity in our final moments.
Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine
Show notes
Guest Bio
Director at Alluvium Water Cremations
Luke Cripps is a Director at Alluvium Water Cremations, established in 2023 with Director Brendan Cooper to bring a gentle, affordable, and eco-friendly method of final disposition to families in Tasmania, Australia. Luke has worked in the death space both practically and theoretically in Tasmania for the better part of a decade, and has a particular interest in the intersection of end-of-life practices and what it might mean to live well. Built on the founding principles of dignity, transparency, and sustainability, Alluvium Water Cremations are proud to support Tasmanian families to make informed choices around their end-of-life decisions.
Summary
Key points from the episode:
- Water cremation uses water and alkali instead of flame, resulting in a gentler process that many families find comforting
- The process often returns 20-30% more remains to families compared to flame cremation
- Alluvium Water Cremations is the first fully approved and regulated water cremation service in Australia
- Water cremation can be integrated with traditional funeral services or used as a standalone option
- The environmental impact is significantly lower than traditional cremation or burial
- Luke emphasises the importance of transparency and informed choice in death care
Transcript
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Luke: The fact that we do get more
remains out of a water cremation than we
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do from a flame cremation, often 20 or
30 percent more, and that's more of the
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person that you loved being returned to.
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Now that is a big thing for lots of
people, you know, maybe that doesn't
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make any difference whatsoever ... Read More
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Luke: The fact that we do get more
remains out of a water cremation than we
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do from a flame cremation, often 20 or
30 percent more, and that's more of the
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person that you loved being returned to.
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Now that is a big thing for lots of
people, you know, maybe that doesn't
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make any difference whatsoever, but
the nature of the process is slow,
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and in comparison to flame cremation,
is gentle, I guess, on the remains.
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Because the reason you get 20 percent
less out of a flame cremation is because
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of the introduction of an environment of
heat at that temperature just flat out
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vaporizes more of those remains into non
existence than a water cremation will.
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Catherine: Welcome to Don't Be
Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging
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open conversations about dying
and the death of a loved one.
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I'm your host Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to
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bring your stories of death back to life.
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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.
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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations
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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.
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We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging, and extend
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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First
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Nation peoples around the globe.
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Today, we are talking with Luke
Cripps, the proud owner and operator
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of Alluvium Water Cremations, based
in beautiful Southern Tasmania.
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Luke and Brenton, his co founders,
journey began when they shared a love.
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of their home state and a
deep appreciation for its
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breathtaking natural surroundings.
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As lifelong residents of Tasmania,
Brendan and Luke have witnessed
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firsthand the unparalleled beauty
and pristine environment that
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makes the place so special.
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And I think we can agree if
we've ever traveled to Tasmania,
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it is a very beautiful place.
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They have written on their
website that they're driven by
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passion for both Tasmania and
sustainable death care practices.
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They founded Alluvia Water Cremations
with a clear mission in mind, to
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provide a respectful and eco friendly
alternative to flame based cremations.
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Today we have Luke with
us, as I mentioned.
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Welcome to the show, Luke.
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Luke: Hi, Catherine.
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Thanks for having me.
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Catherine: Now, look, you and
Brendan established Water Cremations
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in 2023, what is Water Cremation?
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Luke: Water Cremation is a method of
final disposition where the human remains
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introduced to a water cremation device,
into a water cremation device, and we add
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water and a small amount of alkali heat
and time, and over a period of time, those
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remains will be essentially broken down
into their sort of elemental components.
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And so what you're left with on
the other side of that time period
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is mineral bone remains and a
nutrient solution essentially.
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So the body's sort of
chemical constituents.
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Catherine: And how long
does that time frame take?
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Luke: That's a highly variable factor.
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No, highly variable is probably not right.
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Sort of, it 10 to 14
hours most of the time.
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Sometimes it's a bit quicker than that
and sometimes it's a bit longer than that.
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And there's a few different things
that affect how that happens.
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Catherine: And how long has water
cremation been available as an option?
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Uh,
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Luke: well, I mean, that's
an interesting question.
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It depends on, probably they wouldn't have
been calling it water cremation den, but
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it was sort of the late 1900s when the,
process of alkaline hydrolysis, which has
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been well known for a long time, which
is what happens in a water cremation.
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It was being used in an agricultural
context for a few different things,
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but one of those was exactly
the same reason as we use them.
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We're using it with humans, which
is breaking down animal remains
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in an agricultural context.
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But with the reference to humans,
probably maybe the last 30 years, really.
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Is when that started to be something
that people were looking at seriously.
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Catherine: And what country was
leading the way in relation?
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Luke: Oh, that's a, that's
a interesting story.
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So the story of water cremation
or alkaline hydrolysis for humans
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begins with a couple of people
called Joe Wilson and Sandy Sullivan.
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There's a two gentlemen that are
working for the same company, doing a
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whole bunch of things in that company,
but working on alkaline hydrolysis
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as a process was one of the things
that they were working on there.
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And both of them sort of went, okay,
well, we can see that this is something
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that would be useful for humans.
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And the, I guess the ecological
impact of it is, is significantly less
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than a flame cremation or a burial.
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So, look, they had different ideas
about what the best way to achieve
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that in terms of building a water
promotion device for human use.
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And so you ended up with
these two separate companies,
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one based out of the U.
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S.
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and one based out of Scotland.
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So you've got Resumation
and Bioresponse Solutions.
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Catherine: Resumation, was it?
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Luke: Yeah, Resumation
and Bioresponse Solutions,
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Catherine: which
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Luke: is based out of the U.
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S.
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Catherine: Yeah, okay.
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And so tell me, how did you get
involved and interested in it?
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I
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Luke: mean, using the word career is
probably too strong a term to reference
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the things that I've done in my life.
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Sort of my two professional interests
have been death and disability for as
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far back as I can remember, and they're
the only two spaces realistically
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I've, you know, I've worked in.
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So, I have worked in, I guess, direct
disability support work right through to
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managing some various disability services
in Tasmania and have also worked as a
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mortician at a local funeral home for the
better part of a decade down here as well.
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So I have always had an interest
in death and in disability
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and I guess in just margins.
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And limits and what that looks like for
people and so yeah, I guess the story for
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how that connects to where we are right
now is a conversation around a fire pit
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in our backyard with a friend of mine.
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Catherine: Wow.
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What did that conversation involve?
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And how much alcohol?
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Luke: Yeah, so Brendan and I, I mean,
I've been friends for a number of years.
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So I am married to Kylie, my wife,
and Brendan is married to Renee.
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We both have one daughter each.
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And so our daughters met on the
first day of kindergarten at the
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school that they're at right now
and have sort of been coming up.
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So they're nine turning 10 this year.
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And so we met, it must have been
about five or six years ago.
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So I've been friends for a while
and there's not loads and loads.
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Of morticians floating around and so, you
know, when people are friends with someone
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who is involved in that kind of work,
it's just sort of you talk a bit about
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it because people don't hear a lot about
it and yeah, we'd sort of thrown a few
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ideas around in just in terms of things
we thought would be really interesting
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to see happening in that death space.
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Sort of based on my experiences and
Brendan's background is I guess technology
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and networking and that kind of thing
and he and you know, it style stuff and
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so he sort of had a particular interest
in emerging technology or technology
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that wasn't being used or things that
hadn't been accessed before down here,
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but I guess the other side of that.
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was just that, yeah, we've both had
significant experiences around death
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through our lives, and, you know, it
doesn't take very long when you are
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close to someone who has died, or are
seeing that happen for somebody else,
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for you to realize that there surely
must be some things that we can do
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better around this, even for some of the
best experiences that I can think of.
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And so yeah, it's sort of this like
meeting of a few different things
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around wanting to see something
different in the death space,
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wanting to see people offered.
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I'm wanting, you know, sort of
ecological concerns around how can
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we do this better and how can we do
this in a way that is Stewarding, you
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know, what we've been blessed to live
with here, in a more responsible way.
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This is a really big one, I think.
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How can we bring something people,
to people, that they can genuinely
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start to make choices around.
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Catherine: And obviously the custodianship
of the land and the environment
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is a big motive of both of you.
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Yeah.
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And, um I'm not surprised given
the fact that anyone who's been to
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Tasmania will be very much aware of
how much wherever part of Tasmania
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you are, you're always reminded that
you are part of nature and how small
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sometimes you are in relation to that.
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So how did you find out
about alkaline hydrolysis?
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Was it through your role as a mortician?
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Luke: Yeah, absolutely.
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Yeah.
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So a mortician, that's the primary
title I'm probably responsible
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for at that funeral home.
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But if anyone's ever worked at
particularly a smaller funeral
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home, you do end up very quickly
with exposure to pretty well, all
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facets of the business, right?
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You know, sort of everybody needs
to be capable of doing a little
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bit of everything sometimes.
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So I certainly had.
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plenty of exposure to, I guess, burial
and cremation practices as well.
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And yeah, for a little while we had a
look at even just what opening a flame
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crematorium would look like in Tasmania.
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But pretty quickly, there's a bunch
of reasons why I don't think That's
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needed down here, but also pretty
quickly just went like, this is not
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something that, yeah, really aligns
with us, sort of, we think there
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must be a better way to do that.
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Catherine: But, um, tell me about some
of those things that sit better with you
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and that moving towards the, away from
the flame cremation and towards water
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cremation, what were those things that
sort of prompted you to do that move?
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Luke: Yeah, so, I mean, in a really
one on one sense, you'll find that
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quickly I'm not keen to beat around the
bush on stuff, but like, it is simpler
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and cheaper to run a water cremation
machine than it is to run a flame
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cremation machine at the end of the day.
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Sort of like all, once you account
for everything that you need to do,
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as a business, there's an attractive
part there for us going, okay,
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this actually makes more sense.
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So that sort of raises the question
and did for us, sort of running
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a flame cremation Oh, you know,
spreadsheet after spreadsheet,
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going like, okay, well, why wouldn't
somebody have done this before then?
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If this looks like it makes sense, but
also aligns in all these other ways.
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So why hasn't, how
haven't we got here yet?
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And that sort of, I think, leads
into a much broader discussion around
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just the death space and how death
and funerals and funeral homes work.
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And yeah, be super keen to have that chat.
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But essentially, and it weirdly connects
to disability actually for me as well.
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So.
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In disability, like in the disability
theory and in the space for
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stop, we have this sort of, it's
everywhere, I guess, but it's really,
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really relevant for disability.
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When we talk about what actually
informed consent means for people,
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um, what does it mean for somebody to
genuinely make a choice about something?
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And historically.
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For people with disability in Australia
that, you know, you'd be hard pressed
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to suggest that people genuinely have
had in, you know, we have had informed
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consent for the things that we have
done and to, done with and to people
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with disability in Australia over the
last few decades or forever really.
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And in the death space, I think it's.
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pretty relevant as well.
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We have seen a shift in Australia
and across the world, but you know,
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if you can look at it in Australia
pretty easily, in how death is done.
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And I don't think that that shift
has come from the community itself.
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I don't think that has primarily
been, driven by people's, sort of,
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what does exist, which is a natural
uncomfortability often with talking about
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or thinking about or dealing with death.
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I think that, yeah, it's better
thought of as the result of sort
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of successive decisions by, I
guess, undertakers originally and
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then funeral homes as they became.
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A thing to, you know, partially
driven by making money, which is fine.
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But sometimes when we're making those
decisions around how to make money, we
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don't fully appreciate the sort of wider
sociological impact of what sort of scale
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looks like in those decisions eventually.
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And so I guess what I'm getting at here
is we get to a situation today where
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Where families, often just people, full
stop, have no exposure to what happens
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from the moment somebody dies onwards.
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It's not a, you know, the death
literacy isn't as great around even pre
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death or palliative care or anything
like that, don't get me wrong, but
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certainly from that point of death,
you know, it's like a black box.
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It's just a phone call is made, usually
under, sadly, quite a lot of pressure.
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Pressure, depending on what, how, you
know, the circumstances of the death,
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a phone call is made back end, like
everything from then on families are
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just sort of like along for a ride and
often it's not until months afterwards
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that they sort of are able to sit
back and go, right, well, what was,
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you know, what was all that about?
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For me, this notion of informed consent
is really important and being able,
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informed consent enables people to make
genuine choices and choices that reflect
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who they are and what they want to do.
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with themselves.
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So at a really, like a really basic
level, just the most exciting thing
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about alkaline hydrolysis, or I like the
term water cremation for a few reasons,
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but about water cremation is just that
it's genuinely an option that is now
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there in that market space for people
and they can make a choice about it.
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And they don't sort of
get handed two things.
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There weren't always Only ever two
choices to begin with, actually.
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There have been more over time, but
it's only sort of the people with either
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sort of a high degree of death literacy
prior to needing to deal with that that
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have been able to access it, or people
who just have a particular tenacity and
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ability to get stuck into finding out
how to do what they really want to do.
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Yeah.
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But I think the thing about water
cremation is that it really does
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sit right alongside everything else
in a way that's easily accessible
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and yeah, has the ability to serve
a whole bunch of needs, I think.
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Catherine: And let's talk about
how it differs from flooding
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cremation in all different aspects.
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Yeah,
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Luke: for sure.
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One of the things that Brendan and I have
been realising really, really quickly, and
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I think it's a function for me personally,
I can only speak from where you are,
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but for me, I think one of the things
that's become obvious to me is, I guess,
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death literacy just isn't as high as we
thought it was, or as I thought it was.
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So again, I'll draw a parallel
to sort of the disability space.
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I presented a paper at a conference
a couple of years ago on employment
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and disability and how we think about
employment for people with disability and
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why we see the rates that we do for of
employment for people with disability.
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And it was an interesting moment and it
was a semi controversial, it's not quite
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the right word, but it was a bit of a
tricky moment in that conference because
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I felt and feel like we do know why people
with disability often don't end up in
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employment, but in the space, and this is.
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The more relevant part here, in
the disability space, we have a way
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of working with and thinking about
people with disability is really
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beautiful, but that doesn't necessarily
reflect the rest of the culture.
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And when you're sort of just constantly
in that space, you can fall into a bit
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of a trap of assuming that everyone
else in Society and the world around
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you is sort of on the same page.
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And then you go out there and you're like,
Oh no, they're not, not by a long shot.
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I think it was a similar
thing around death for me.
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I was like, okay, the people that
I spend time with and the things
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that I do and the work that I do
sort of maybe had me assuming that
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people knew more than they did.
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So the answer for differences between
flame cremation and water cremation
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is hard to start talking about
without talking about flame cremation.
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Because lots and lots of people
don't really understand even
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what a flame cremation is.
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And that's become very, very obvious.
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And so I think lots of people just have
this idea in their head that it's very,
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very similar to whatever they would
see in a movie, which is that maybe
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there's a wall and a door opens up and
somebody goes in and the door closes.
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And often instantly, actually,
there's a thing that is really common.
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The heat is so hot that it's instantly,
what we end up with is this sort
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of neat, small pile of ash, which,
yeah, just, I was going to say
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couldn't be farther from the truth.
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It's not couldn't be
farther from the truth.
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It's there.
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It's just, there's a lot of things
that go on in a flame cremation
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that people don't fully appreciate.
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Catherine: Yeah.
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And I think that as you were
saying is that previously about
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just that distance that we have.
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We generally, historically, have engaged
someone, we make the phone call, we
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engage them, the body is removed from
where it needs to be and then the next
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00:15:42,414 --> 00:15:47,885
time you really see the body, maybe
at the funeral, or it may just be
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returned to you in two little boxes,
cardboard boxes, in a nice carry bag.
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With a card.
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And that's all people really
need to see and maybe people
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don't think much more of that.
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But
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Luke: there is
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Catherine: a whole
process, isn't there, Luke?
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Luke: Absolutely.
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00:16:04,594 --> 00:16:08,114
Yeah, there are a lot of things that
happen between that first call and
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between, or even between that first
call and somebody, being cremated.
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00:16:11,985 --> 00:16:14,585
But even the process, you know,
I think for reasons that will
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00:16:14,795 --> 00:16:16,625
become more obvious as we talk.
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Yeah.
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00:16:17,055 --> 00:16:20,385
I just think it's important to
think of cremation as a process.
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00:16:20,525 --> 00:16:23,424
It's sort of not a discrete
event that happens.
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00:16:23,455 --> 00:16:27,094
Um, there's quite a few things that happen
in a cremation, both for water and flame.
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00:16:27,145 --> 00:16:28,295
And some of those things are the same.
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00:16:28,295 --> 00:16:29,705
And some of those things
are a little bit different.
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Some of them are drastically different.
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00:16:31,325 --> 00:16:34,490
Catherine: So maybe do you want to
talk us through that process and
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00:16:34,490 --> 00:16:36,214
perhaps draw parallels between the two?
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00:16:36,595 --> 00:16:37,095
Luke: Absolutely.
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00:16:37,185 --> 00:16:37,455
Yeah.
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00:16:37,625 --> 00:16:42,415
So when we talk about a flame cremation,
and I'm, again, I will suggest I'm only,
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I'm speaking from, I guess, Tasmania here.
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So there are different flame
cremators around, but I do know
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00:16:46,845 --> 00:16:50,985
the Tasmanian space and the flame
cremators that are used down here are
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00:16:51,015 --> 00:16:57,255
not dissimilar to a large fireplace
or a large pizza oven style thing.
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00:16:57,265 --> 00:16:59,954
So it is a chamber built with fire bricks.
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00:17:00,210 --> 00:17:04,280
to retain heat and they typically
have one, sometimes a couple of
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00:17:04,290 --> 00:17:08,839
large flame vents that are run
on either LP or natural gas.
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00:17:08,929 --> 00:17:11,419
And so in one sense, it's
a very simple thing, right?
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00:17:11,529 --> 00:17:14,869
It's as simple as people imagine it,
which is that somebody goes in there
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00:17:14,929 --> 00:17:18,590
and those flame vents are turned on
and the temperature is raised and
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00:17:18,590 --> 00:17:21,589
maintained in there, usually anywhere
from like sort of 900 to 1000 degrees.
324
00:17:21,940 --> 00:17:23,819
a thousand degrees, sometimes Celsius.
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And then what is left is ash.
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00:17:25,819 --> 00:17:27,950
And ash is a whole conversation as well.
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00:17:28,099 --> 00:17:31,750
In practice, what people often don't
really understand is that just the nature
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00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:36,010
of how these are designed is it's just a
very active process of flame cremation.
329
00:17:36,140 --> 00:17:40,170
So running a flame cremation or as
a cremator operator is kind of an
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00:17:40,180 --> 00:17:43,660
active process of being there and
being involved in opening and shutting
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the door and maintaining temperature.
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00:17:45,340 --> 00:17:48,510
And, I guess moving remains
through flame as well.
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00:17:48,610 --> 00:17:52,320
And so, you know, you're talking about
using things like a rake to ensure that
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00:17:52,330 --> 00:17:56,070
you can make sure that every part of
the body has been accessed by a flame,
335
00:17:56,070 --> 00:18:00,030
not just as an ambient environment, but
directly by the flame from vents as well.
336
00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:04,560
And yeah, it's what you end up with
at the end of that process is I guess
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00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:05,810
what we would call mineral bone.
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00:18:06,409 --> 00:18:09,470
remains, primarily calcium
phosphate or calcium sulfate.
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00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,250
And those bone remains are
visibly human bone, typically.
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00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,600
So that's something that I think
people often don't understand
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00:18:15,610 --> 00:18:18,209
because when we talk about a process
of cremation, we don't get ash
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00:18:18,210 --> 00:18:19,519
from the cremator itself, I guess.
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00:18:19,589 --> 00:18:23,520
So, you know, you have these visibly
human bones that are often broken up
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00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,860
and fragmented and they're, they're
swept into a pile and then taken out
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00:18:26,860 --> 00:18:31,005
of a flame cremator and then processed
into what we refer to as ash now.
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00:18:31,125 --> 00:18:34,725
In terms of drawing parallels
to water cremation, the several
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00:18:34,725 --> 00:18:36,235
steps are exactly the same.
348
00:18:36,235 --> 00:18:39,525
So we have a person that's
introduced to a cremator.
349
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Which in our case is a machine
built by Bioresponse Solutions.
350
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,430
And instead of gas, we're
using water, essentially.
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00:18:48,450 --> 00:18:51,500
So water fills up in that chamber
to a certain level, and that's
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00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,729
determined by a number of factors
prior to someone going in.
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00:18:54,830 --> 00:18:59,630
And then we also introduce an alkali
salt, which is potassium hydroxide.
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00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:04,479
That water is then heated, not boiling,
but to hot, certainly, to about 93 to 95.
355
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,620
95 degrees and the water is circulated
through that machine over and over
356
00:19:08,620 --> 00:19:12,520
and over so that water is flowing over
those remains and when you introduce
357
00:19:12,590 --> 00:19:18,579
heat and alkalinity and water flow
particularly to anything that is,
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00:19:18,789 --> 00:19:22,420
you know, a protein based compound, a
process of alkaline hydrolysis happens.
359
00:19:22,514 --> 00:19:26,225
Which is that those sort of hydrogen
bombs are broken down by that process.
360
00:19:26,274 --> 00:19:29,715
And actually what some people don't really
understand, lots of people think that
361
00:19:29,745 --> 00:19:34,135
it's the alkali that's doing the work, but
it's sort of like the alkali is providing
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00:19:34,135 --> 00:19:35,514
an environment for the work to happen.
363
00:19:35,514 --> 00:19:38,784
The work is actually happening through
the flow of water, those molecules
364
00:19:38,814 --> 00:19:41,965
hitting one another in the right kind
of environment over and over again.
365
00:19:42,305 --> 00:19:45,985
Through water flow is what allows those
bonds to break down and then the bonds
366
00:19:45,985 --> 00:19:48,865
that don't break down that are left in
the cremator Exactly what we get out
367
00:19:48,865 --> 00:19:52,475
of a flame cremation, which is calcium
phosphate almost always calcium phosphate
368
00:19:52,715 --> 00:19:56,104
in alkaline hydrolysis Plus anything
else that won't break down like hips
369
00:19:56,104 --> 00:19:59,244
and implants and pacemakers and things
like that that'll come out as well
370
00:19:59,654 --> 00:20:02,334
Catherine: I know when You
have to do flame cremation.
371
00:20:02,335 --> 00:20:05,883
You need to remove pacemakers because of
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00:20:05,883 --> 00:20:06,390
Luke: the
373
00:20:06,390 --> 00:20:06,897
Catherine: battery.
374
00:20:06,897 --> 00:20:10,594
Do you have to do that in an
alkaline hydrolysis process?
375
00:20:10,854 --> 00:20:11,764
Luke: No, we don't.
376
00:20:11,874 --> 00:20:13,344
And again, yeah, it's a great point.
377
00:20:13,685 --> 00:20:17,775
To raise because in, yeah, in a
flame cremation, we can't, I don't
378
00:20:17,775 --> 00:20:19,274
actually know how serious it is.
379
00:20:19,274 --> 00:20:22,935
I struggle to imagine it to be an enormous
issue, given what's actually going on
380
00:20:22,935 --> 00:20:26,534
inside a flame cremator, a tiny battery
goes bang, but it certainly is standard
381
00:20:26,534 --> 00:20:27,964
practice everywhere in Australia.
382
00:20:28,034 --> 00:20:29,955
And maybe there was something
that happened at some point that.
383
00:20:30,310 --> 00:20:33,560
meant that we put this into legislation,
but it is standard practice that if
384
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:37,249
someone is being cremated by flame and
they have an implanted medical device
385
00:20:37,259 --> 00:20:40,110
that is powered, so a pacemaker and
there are some other things as well,
386
00:20:40,189 --> 00:20:43,529
sometimes, that that needs to be removed
prior to that person being cremated.
387
00:20:43,609 --> 00:20:45,790
And that's one of the last things
that gets checked, actually,
388
00:20:45,929 --> 00:20:46,899
prior to someone being cremated.
389
00:20:46,929 --> 00:20:47,389
Catherine: Yeah, right.
390
00:20:47,389 --> 00:20:50,070
And tell me, Luke, we've got the
bones, regardless of whether we've
391
00:20:50,070 --> 00:20:54,814
been through alkaline hydrolysis or
flame cremation, what then happens?
392
00:20:54,985 --> 00:20:56,064
Luke: Well, I think it is.
393
00:20:57,384 --> 00:20:59,685
I think the coolest term for
that is it's bone shadow.
394
00:20:59,764 --> 00:21:00,455
What you have.
395
00:21:00,764 --> 00:21:01,074
Catherine: Bone shadow?
396
00:21:01,675 --> 00:21:02,905
I haven't heard that one
397
00:21:02,905 --> 00:21:03,228
Luke: before.
398
00:21:03,228 --> 00:21:06,394
Yeah, that's the one that I like best
because I think it gives the right
399
00:21:06,414 --> 00:21:10,184
image to people and the right way to
conceptualize what comes back as well,
400
00:21:10,235 --> 00:21:11,754
which is like the shadow of bone.
401
00:21:11,764 --> 00:21:15,705
It is visibly bone in the same way that
your shadow is visibly your shadow, right?
402
00:21:15,715 --> 00:21:18,384
But there's nothing in it anymore
really that makes it bone.
403
00:21:18,394 --> 00:21:21,874
It is a, it is a, it is a mineral
or a compound like a molecule.
404
00:21:21,974 --> 00:21:23,664
So it's calcium phosphate bone shadow.
405
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:27,020
So both in flame cremation and water
cremation, you will get this bone shadow
406
00:21:27,050 --> 00:21:30,010
that comes back out of the machine
that does come from your loved one,
407
00:21:30,020 --> 00:21:32,070
that is them, that is a piece of them.
408
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:36,049
And it's particularly visibly
human when it comes out of the
409
00:21:36,049 --> 00:21:37,439
process of water cremation.
410
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,929
And it's helpful understanding how
that flame cremation has gone up until
411
00:21:40,969 --> 00:21:43,810
now to understand why the remains
that come out of there, why the bone
412
00:21:43,810 --> 00:21:46,350
shadow that comes out of there is
quite small and chipped and fragmented.
413
00:21:46,379 --> 00:21:49,350
And typically out of a water
cremation, it's pretty visibly
414
00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:51,000
whole bones that come out of it.
415
00:21:51,030 --> 00:21:52,679
And well, then we have to.
416
00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:53,390
process them.
417
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,220
So everybody knows that we
get ash back from a cremation.
418
00:21:56,250 --> 00:21:59,760
And so that goes into what must
be the most heavy metal name for a
419
00:21:59,770 --> 00:22:01,529
device in the history of the world.
420
00:22:01,879 --> 00:22:05,740
I think we can imagine someone, some
black metal band in Norway calling
421
00:22:05,740 --> 00:22:08,589
themselves cremulator and having
it all designed up wonderfully.
422
00:22:08,589 --> 00:22:09,290
It'd be pretty cool.
423
00:22:09,350 --> 00:22:10,940
But yeah, it goes into
what's called a cremulator.
424
00:22:11,020 --> 00:22:14,860
So those bone fragments or bone shadow
or mineral bone remains, whatever.
425
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:16,550
The term that you enjoy the most.
426
00:22:16,580 --> 00:22:18,860
It's collected up and
placed into a cremulator.
427
00:22:18,919 --> 00:22:21,960
Which is not really a straightforward
way to describe it except
428
00:22:21,990 --> 00:22:23,459
it's kind of like a blender.
429
00:22:23,540 --> 00:22:27,460
Basically like it is a
machine that has a receptacle.
430
00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:29,719
I don't know what you'd call it actually
because they're not really blades.
431
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:30,600
They're not sharp, but.
432
00:22:30,685 --> 00:22:34,105
Yeah, especially like pulverizing
blades, grinding blades, essentially.
433
00:22:34,175 --> 00:22:38,475
And we switch that on until those
remains are kind of finally powdered.
434
00:22:38,514 --> 00:22:41,925
And that completes the sort of
conceptual way that we think about ash.
435
00:22:41,935 --> 00:22:44,975
Cause now when that returns to
a family and they open that up
436
00:22:44,984 --> 00:22:47,364
and they go to spread ashes,
they go, yeah, this makes sense.
437
00:22:47,375 --> 00:22:48,054
This is ash.
438
00:22:48,055 --> 00:22:48,975
This is what ash looks like.
439
00:22:49,004 --> 00:22:51,745
Cause I've cleaned a fireplace
out before, I know what ash is.
440
00:22:51,975 --> 00:22:55,325
In a very, very real sense, neither
what comes out of a flame cremation and
441
00:22:55,325 --> 00:22:58,175
what comes out of a water cremation,
neither of these things probably are ash
442
00:22:58,185 --> 00:22:59,925
in the conventionally understood way.
443
00:23:00,004 --> 00:23:02,475
Even from a flame cremation, we've got
to wrap our heads around because the
444
00:23:02,475 --> 00:23:05,864
heat is so hot in a flame cremation
that we don't get ash out of that
445
00:23:05,864 --> 00:23:08,134
process, like ash is vaporized.
446
00:23:08,135 --> 00:23:10,485
What we think of as ash out of
our fireplace wouldn't be in
447
00:23:10,485 --> 00:23:11,855
there if we'd had it that hot.
448
00:23:12,115 --> 00:23:12,675
Catherine: Yeah, right.
449
00:23:12,745 --> 00:23:17,765
And what's interesting that Again,
it's that sort of detachment that we
450
00:23:17,805 --> 00:23:19,575
don't really know about this process.
451
00:23:19,655 --> 00:23:22,885
I know that I certainly didn't until
I started asking a few questions
452
00:23:22,885 --> 00:23:24,564
and had attended a few sessions.
453
00:23:24,564 --> 00:23:28,335
To be honest, I hadn't thought of
the process, but what I have read
454
00:23:28,364 --> 00:23:33,415
about is also something that has
done in Japan is where they allow.
455
00:23:33,825 --> 00:23:35,075
the process to be cremated.
456
00:23:35,725 --> 00:23:40,665
And then they use, there's a ritual which
they have where they actually go through
457
00:23:40,665 --> 00:23:45,795
the bones, don't they, and with chopsticks
and it's a family ritual, isn't it?
458
00:23:46,365 --> 00:23:48,964
Luke: I haven't heard of this
before, but this is exciting for
459
00:23:48,964 --> 00:23:51,464
me to hear, but it makes perfect
sense to me because it's not us yet.
460
00:23:51,474 --> 00:23:53,745
And of course they could do
something of that nature.
461
00:23:54,135 --> 00:23:54,395
Catherine: Yeah.
462
00:23:54,395 --> 00:23:55,574
What's
463
00:23:55,575 --> 00:23:56,765
Luke: the purpose of them going through?
464
00:23:56,805 --> 00:23:57,245
Like, is it?
465
00:23:57,475 --> 00:24:04,410
Catherine: It's to reclaim their loved
ones, Ashes or, you know, and putting them
466
00:24:04,410 --> 00:24:08,930
in a larger urn, so not your cardboard box
that you get, but putting them in a larger
467
00:24:08,930 --> 00:24:16,430
urn and then still taking them home,
but just in the compound form that still
468
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,400
is replicating what a bone looks like.
469
00:24:20,069 --> 00:24:22,799
Yet here in Australia, that's
my understanding is we're
470
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:23,629
not allowed to do that.
471
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:25,200
It has to be.
472
00:24:25,275 --> 00:24:28,364
Yeah,
473
00:24:28,745 --> 00:24:30,455
Luke: I'll take it under advisement.
474
00:24:30,625 --> 00:24:33,004
That one of the comment about
whether it's legal or not.
475
00:24:33,045 --> 00:24:35,625
I think it's a, our legislation
is different in every state.
476
00:24:35,725 --> 00:24:39,474
I don't think it's well studied in
Tasmania, what has to go on there,
477
00:24:39,785 --> 00:24:43,870
but I suspect, There certainly would
be a tacit assumption underpinning
478
00:24:43,870 --> 00:24:48,010
most of our legislation that when we
refer to remains that go back to a
479
00:24:48,010 --> 00:24:49,750
family, that they are in that form.
480
00:24:50,020 --> 00:24:50,560
Catherine: Yeah.
481
00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:53,390
Luke: And I guess for me that
raises questions about what, you
482
00:24:53,390 --> 00:24:56,230
know, how have we gotten to a point
where nobody, where people don't
483
00:24:56,270 --> 00:24:58,039
understand that about the process?
484
00:24:58,530 --> 00:25:03,290
And there's a, I think most people when
you speak to them about it, interested.
485
00:25:03,790 --> 00:25:07,420
They would like to know about that and
they are interested to hear about it.
486
00:25:07,915 --> 00:25:10,945
Probably, you know, clearly not enough
to go and do a bunch of reading all
487
00:25:10,945 --> 00:25:15,435
by themselves because they're not
as, you know, pretty as me, but they
488
00:25:15,955 --> 00:25:19,074
are certainly interested and are
not really upset by hearing that.
489
00:25:19,165 --> 00:25:22,264
It makes sense when you lay it out
that this is what you would have
490
00:25:22,265 --> 00:25:23,905
to do and this is how it works.
491
00:25:24,435 --> 00:25:27,845
So for me, that, you know, that
raises questions around how we
492
00:25:27,845 --> 00:25:30,895
have gotten to the point where
nobody knows that stuff anymore.
493
00:25:31,095 --> 00:25:35,514
And I would be difficult to verify,
but I would suspect that early days
494
00:25:35,515 --> 00:25:40,494
in cremation, when cremation was
first introduced in Australia, people
495
00:25:40,495 --> 00:25:44,625
would have been more aware of that,
about every part of that process.
496
00:25:45,145 --> 00:25:47,945
But that might be something for
me to go and have a look at.
497
00:25:48,510 --> 00:25:50,400
Because I think there's
lost knowledge there.
498
00:25:50,470 --> 00:25:54,360
People did used to be a lot closer
to and more involved in what happened
499
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:56,220
post death than they are now.
500
00:25:56,740 --> 00:26:00,600
I know, for example, that it used
to be pretty common practice for
501
00:26:00,820 --> 00:26:04,389
work experience for people in school
to go and do work experience at
502
00:26:04,389 --> 00:26:06,210
a funeral home or in a military.
503
00:26:06,219 --> 00:26:08,199
It was not uncommon in any way.
504
00:26:08,259 --> 00:26:10,639
But if you were to try
and float that today.
505
00:26:11,685 --> 00:26:14,375
Approach your local high school
and go, right, I'm going to do
506
00:26:14,495 --> 00:26:15,775
work experience at a mortuary.
507
00:26:16,325 --> 00:26:20,235
Yeah, I think the response would be
different and it certainly doesn't happen.
508
00:26:20,655 --> 00:26:20,915
Anymore.
509
00:26:21,335 --> 00:26:22,425
Well, not in Tasmania, anyway.
510
00:26:22,805 --> 00:26:23,675
Catherine: But isn't that a shame?
511
00:26:23,945 --> 00:26:24,185
Yeah.
512
00:26:24,185 --> 00:26:24,395
A hundred
513
00:26:24,395 --> 00:26:24,455
Luke: percent.
514
00:26:25,175 --> 00:26:29,188
Catherine: Because it's just a valid
career as any other that's on the
515
00:26:29,188 --> 00:26:29,526
Luke: table.
516
00:26:29,526 --> 00:26:29,864
Yes.
517
00:26:29,865 --> 00:26:30,695
A hundred percent.
518
00:26:30,695 --> 00:26:32,434
Valid career as much as anything else is.
519
00:26:32,464 --> 00:26:36,825
But also the knowledge that is lost from
that, from not having people exposed
520
00:26:36,825 --> 00:26:39,595
at any point in their life all the way
up until they're just forced to deal
521
00:26:39,595 --> 00:26:43,375
with it because they're sitting with
someone that they love who's died.
522
00:26:43,955 --> 00:26:46,355
Like that's the point that
people might, you know, mostly
523
00:26:46,355 --> 00:26:47,645
come into contact with this.
524
00:26:48,195 --> 00:26:49,604
And my argument.
525
00:26:50,820 --> 00:26:56,020
And my concern would be that the only
people that derive any benefit from
526
00:26:56,020 --> 00:27:00,600
that lack of knowledge, sort of very
big, well established funeral homes
527
00:27:00,610 --> 00:27:04,889
who, yeah, don't need to have anything
questioned about how they do things.
528
00:27:04,940 --> 00:27:07,210
And not because I'm not trying
to indicate there's anything.
529
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,130
inherently untoward about what's
going on in a regular stock
530
00:27:11,130 --> 00:27:12,750
standard funeral home at all.
531
00:27:12,780 --> 00:27:15,520
It's just that, you know, when what
passes for innovation is like, do
532
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,020
you want egg sandwiches or salad
sandwiches at the wake in this space?
533
00:27:20,090 --> 00:27:25,319
You know, anything that is slightly
outside of the, I guess, the flow
534
00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:28,770
chart for what we do from first
call through to returning of ashes.
535
00:27:29,415 --> 00:27:31,595
is a cost to a funeral home.
536
00:27:32,095 --> 00:27:37,215
So the less people that ask for anything
out of the ordinary, the less we have
537
00:27:37,215 --> 00:27:40,825
to be concerned that we have to spend
any more money on a particular service.
538
00:27:40,945 --> 00:27:45,384
And so it doesn't need to come from
some specific kind of like cabal,
539
00:27:45,384 --> 00:27:47,904
like, you know, malicious place.
540
00:27:47,914 --> 00:27:51,784
It's just, that's how doing
business the way we have done it.
541
00:27:52,340 --> 00:27:56,479
As you know, that's where it's gotten us
to where people just go, okay, well, I
542
00:27:56,479 --> 00:28:00,350
get on the phone and they ask me a set
of questions and I answer them and I
543
00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:04,319
assume that all of the questions they're
asking me are because I'm required to
544
00:28:04,319 --> 00:28:07,029
answer those questions as well, or I'm
required to do the things that those
545
00:28:07,029 --> 00:28:09,899
questions are to do with, like have a
funeral in the first place, for instance,
546
00:28:09,989 --> 00:28:15,139
and For me, that's not putting the
family at the centre of the process,
547
00:28:15,439 --> 00:28:20,169
which surely has to be amongst the most
important things that we're thinking
548
00:28:20,169 --> 00:28:21,379
through when we're talking about death.
549
00:28:21,570 --> 00:28:25,219
Catherine: Yeah, there's a few things
that come to mind as you're talking,
550
00:28:25,219 --> 00:28:30,242
and I think historically, you know,
when you think that we used to have
551
00:28:30,242 --> 00:28:35,624
funerals at home, and that was the
whole reason why Apollo was in a house.
552
00:28:36,535 --> 00:28:41,084
And the room was the parlor because that
was where you used to lay out the dead
553
00:28:41,085 --> 00:28:44,854
and people used to, you know, grieve
and, and, and pay their condolences.
554
00:28:45,365 --> 00:28:49,185
And then you're right now that
we've moved from, you know, I
555
00:28:49,215 --> 00:28:53,174
suppose what we do with a lot of
things is outsource our death care.
556
00:28:54,005 --> 00:28:58,175
And so it's, it's someone that's
automatically called, that has
557
00:28:58,175 --> 00:29:03,135
probably taken care of a family funeral
previously, might have been a grandparent.
558
00:29:03,455 --> 00:29:05,375
So it's just a, okay, well, they did it.
559
00:29:06,020 --> 00:29:08,780
Good job last time, so we'll use the same.
560
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:14,530
And I think when I was faced with our
friend dying in February last year,
561
00:29:15,140 --> 00:29:19,700
and there was no precedent, and I was
trying to show the kids, because they
562
00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:20,950
were coming over from the States.
563
00:29:21,380 --> 00:29:23,469
And I'm like, what are the options?
564
00:29:23,989 --> 00:29:29,024
And that was difficult because there
was no one place to show them what were
565
00:29:29,024 --> 00:29:30,934
the legal options available to them.
566
00:29:31,555 --> 00:29:35,915
And again, you know, when I had a
focus group, a girlfriend of mine
567
00:29:35,915 --> 00:29:40,495
said to me, I would have an idea
what to do when a loved one dies.
568
00:29:40,855 --> 00:29:42,584
And hence why I developed the guide.
569
00:29:43,105 --> 00:29:47,514
So there is something to help
people take them through those
570
00:29:47,825 --> 00:29:52,135
steps and those decisions so they
can then make informed choices.
571
00:29:52,555 --> 00:29:52,965
Because.
572
00:29:53,625 --> 00:29:59,405
Otherwise we're very vulnerable and
we'll just fall to a default position.
573
00:29:59,755 --> 00:30:03,404
Now, like you were saying, it
doesn't necessarily reflect
574
00:30:03,404 --> 00:30:05,674
the person who's just dying.
575
00:30:05,835 --> 00:30:08,275
Luke: It raises a couple of things for me.
576
00:30:08,785 --> 00:30:12,015
So when we make decisions,
and this just goes to how our
577
00:30:12,205 --> 00:30:14,069
brains work, our brains work.
578
00:30:14,470 --> 00:30:17,800
Often very, very differently
to the way we imagine they do.
579
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,270
So often we'll make a decision or have
an experience and then retroactively
580
00:30:22,270 --> 00:30:25,610
fit back across that a set of reasons
for why that was the case, right?
581
00:30:25,610 --> 00:30:29,930
So X thing happens to us, we respond Y
way, but then the story that we fit back
582
00:30:29,930 --> 00:30:34,324
over that is usually, yeah, it's to do
with our self conception and how we.
583
00:30:34,555 --> 00:30:38,815
How we imagine we think and feel and move
in the world sounds really unrelated,
584
00:30:39,055 --> 00:30:42,125
but the reason I'm raising it is that
often it made me think of it when you're
585
00:30:42,125 --> 00:30:46,365
talking about, I go to the last funeral
home that I went to a funeral at, and I
586
00:30:46,365 --> 00:30:51,675
think to myself, well, they did a really
lovely service or more pertinently, I go
587
00:30:51,725 --> 00:30:57,185
to where the last place I booked a funeral
at, and they did a lovely service for me.
588
00:30:57,685 --> 00:31:00,415
There's like a weird dissonance
for people to acknowledge
589
00:31:00,415 --> 00:31:01,705
that they weren't happy with.
590
00:31:02,205 --> 00:31:06,675
How things went, because once it's
a bit of a, kind of like an odd
591
00:31:06,685 --> 00:31:10,145
sunk cost fallacy thing going on
for them, where it feels almost
592
00:31:10,145 --> 00:31:14,505
disrespectful to not be pleased with
the service that was given to you.
593
00:31:15,045 --> 00:31:18,615
And so you sort of, you've spent the
money and you've had the funeral and you
594
00:31:18,685 --> 00:31:20,125
sort of like, well, that's all done now.
595
00:31:20,125 --> 00:31:21,205
So it was lovely.
596
00:31:21,475 --> 00:31:25,745
When often what I have found is the
more that you speak to people about
597
00:31:26,415 --> 00:31:30,065
what their experience of a funeral
was or how they felt about it.
598
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,290
Yeah, if you give them a little bit
of time, they'll start to share with
599
00:31:34,290 --> 00:31:36,790
you the things that, you know, in
retrospect, I wish we could have done
600
00:31:36,790 --> 00:31:40,790
X or Y, or this is what happened and
we wish it had been the other way.
601
00:31:40,790 --> 00:31:43,100
But look, at the end of the day, and
then they'll start, they'll come straight
602
00:31:43,110 --> 00:31:46,310
back and start trying to go, well, you
know, but look, it was really lovely.
603
00:31:46,310 --> 00:31:47,250
It was, it was wonderful.
604
00:31:47,250 --> 00:31:49,820
And the people, it's great to
see so many people there or
605
00:31:49,820 --> 00:31:51,140
whatever it happened to be.
606
00:31:51,820 --> 00:31:55,240
And I just see that as a really, it's
just a sad thing for me to say that
607
00:31:55,290 --> 00:31:58,780
that's where we've gotten to, that
people, yeah, just don't have the
608
00:31:58,780 --> 00:32:03,595
knowledge that they They need, at the
right time, to make those choices.
609
00:32:03,615 --> 00:32:05,805
And then I sort of sat with that.
610
00:32:05,805 --> 00:32:08,935
Like that it's one of those things
that you don't get to do again.
611
00:32:09,425 --> 00:32:10,035
So you can.
612
00:32:10,515 --> 00:32:13,135
There's a particular
weight to it at the time.
613
00:32:13,375 --> 00:32:17,495
So you can absolutely, you know, go and
throw a funeral again 10 years later
614
00:32:17,495 --> 00:32:18,645
and do it the way you want it to do.
615
00:32:18,875 --> 00:32:21,875
But yeah, there's something about being
able to get that done at the right
616
00:32:21,875 --> 00:32:24,415
time that feels significant for people.
617
00:32:24,940 --> 00:32:30,880
And again, my concern there is that that's
somehow best for the family, and I just
618
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,150
don't see that as best for the family.
619
00:32:32,180 --> 00:32:35,890
But the other side of the Retroactively
fitting a story back across things
620
00:32:35,910 --> 00:32:39,500
is one of the things that people fall
into all the time is that this is
621
00:32:39,500 --> 00:32:41,550
how things are done at the moment.
622
00:32:41,980 --> 00:32:45,590
So there must be reasons that
they are done that way because we
623
00:32:45,590 --> 00:32:49,750
assume that things make sense and
they don't always make sense in
624
00:32:49,750 --> 00:32:50,940
the way that we assume they do.
625
00:32:51,430 --> 00:32:56,790
So, you know, we used to do funerals
at home and we had a funeral parlor.
626
00:32:57,295 --> 00:33:00,865
And often if you talk to people, and
I have talked to people about this
627
00:33:00,905 --> 00:33:04,455
kind of thing, they will give you
a set of intuitive reasons for why
628
00:33:04,455 --> 00:33:05,875
that might not be the case anymore.
629
00:33:06,365 --> 00:33:08,945
And typically they couldn't
be further from the truth.
630
00:33:09,450 --> 00:33:14,810
Which is that there existed a market
opportunity, recognized by undertakers
631
00:33:14,890 --> 00:33:20,200
originally, to go well, we can take
care of this part of the process for the
632
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:21,520
families that want to take care of it.
633
00:33:21,660 --> 00:33:24,210
And again, nothing about this
needs to be malicious at all.
634
00:33:24,260 --> 00:33:27,880
It's just a recognized opportunity to
go, okay, cool, people are doing this
635
00:33:27,890 --> 00:33:31,010
at home, like we can do this somewhere
that they like to do it, or we can go
636
00:33:31,010 --> 00:33:33,870
to the church that they used to go to
and we can arrange all of that for them.
637
00:33:34,405 --> 00:33:38,915
And so now we reflect back on that and
go, we come up with reasons like, you
638
00:33:38,915 --> 00:33:42,865
know, it must have been a health hazard
to have somebody in the home and people
639
00:33:42,865 --> 00:33:47,305
needed to be taken out of the home or
the children were deeply traumatised by.
640
00:33:47,820 --> 00:33:50,750
The deceased being at home for a few days,
so we need to, we need to remove that
641
00:33:50,750 --> 00:33:52,350
and keep children out of the process.
642
00:33:52,900 --> 00:33:56,370
And none of those things
reflect how that went down,
643
00:33:56,590 --> 00:33:57,870
like how that actually happened.
644
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,120
And those end up being stumbling blocks
for people thinking through what they want
645
00:34:01,130 --> 00:34:04,140
now, because they're sort of operating
on this set of assumptions around why
646
00:34:04,150 --> 00:34:06,439
things are the way they are, which, yeah.
647
00:34:06,740 --> 00:34:08,090
Often couldn't be further from the truth.
648
00:34:08,100 --> 00:34:11,570
One of the most exciting things
and every state in Australia is
649
00:34:11,570 --> 00:34:15,070
different, but Tasmania is amongst
the places in Australia where,
650
00:34:15,570 --> 00:34:16,310
tell me what you want to do.
651
00:34:16,810 --> 00:34:19,560
Like we can, it's not much
that's off the table if you
652
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,170
want to do something different.
653
00:34:21,690 --> 00:34:25,080
Catherine: And I definitely think
that everyone should be asking those
654
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,329
questions wherever they are in the world.
655
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,270
Australia or the world,
to be perfectly honest.
656
00:34:30,980 --> 00:34:34,380
You know, if you feel like you want
to do something and honor your loved
657
00:34:34,380 --> 00:34:37,620
one in a particular way, just ask.
658
00:34:38,130 --> 00:34:43,100
And interestingly enough, the funeral
directors that I have spoken to, any
659
00:34:43,150 --> 00:34:47,445
funeral directors who, interestingly
enough, talking about The fact that
660
00:34:47,485 --> 00:34:51,905
you know, you know, no longer can have
work experience students, you know,
661
00:34:51,975 --> 00:34:56,135
they've been funeral directors that have
actually taken over from their parents.
662
00:34:56,715 --> 00:34:59,765
So it's actually become a
legacy that they've taken on.
663
00:35:00,395 --> 00:35:03,574
And perhaps because, you
know, there was a lack of.
664
00:35:04,105 --> 00:35:05,145
work experience students.
665
00:35:05,875 --> 00:35:11,665
Um, but they've been very open to
make sure that funerals are more
666
00:35:11,795 --> 00:35:16,225
personalized now and that there are
options on the table, which is great.
667
00:35:16,855 --> 00:35:22,295
But what you were saying before, Luke,
in relation to people's ability or way
668
00:35:22,305 --> 00:35:27,765
in which to minimise perhaps complex
grief that can happen after a funeral.
669
00:35:28,075 --> 00:35:34,455
It is a report that Bare Funerals did
in 2022 called State of the Nation and
670
00:35:34,755 --> 00:35:39,495
it was, talked exactly what you were,
were just mentioning about the fact that
671
00:35:39,905 --> 00:35:42,925
people surveyed were hesitant to question.
672
00:35:43,665 --> 00:35:47,365
Prices or shop around because
they thought it was disrespectful
673
00:35:47,365 --> 00:35:49,815
and dishonoring their loved one.
674
00:35:49,815 --> 00:35:53,215
And also people were really
hesitant to give negative feedback.
675
00:35:54,155 --> 00:35:59,131
So, yeah, and we can include that
research as part of this show
676
00:35:59,131 --> 00:36:03,105
notes for this, this particular
episode, but you're totally right.
677
00:36:03,345 --> 00:36:03,945
Luke: Yeah.
678
00:36:04,935 --> 00:36:10,225
Again, there are different ways and
different perspectives on who a funeral
679
00:36:10,265 --> 00:36:15,635
is for and what a funeral should be
about, but it does seem to me that
680
00:36:16,115 --> 00:36:19,315
Whether you are someone who believes
that a funeral should be a reflection of
681
00:36:19,315 --> 00:36:24,235
the exact wishes of the person who has
died or whether you think a funeral is
682
00:36:24,625 --> 00:36:29,405
primarily to do with those who are living
and how they want to remember and how
683
00:36:29,405 --> 00:36:31,725
they want to process that experience.
684
00:36:32,315 --> 00:36:36,405
Of those two things, the, one of the
things that doesn't show up on that
685
00:36:36,405 --> 00:36:40,685
list is whatever is the simplest and
easiest for the funeral home or funeral
686
00:36:40,685 --> 00:36:42,375
director that you are speaking with.
687
00:36:42,915 --> 00:36:43,615
And I guess that's.
688
00:36:44,110 --> 00:36:47,825
Fundamentally, my only point on all
of that stuff, which is that Yeah,
689
00:36:47,825 --> 00:36:53,055
you can ask questions and you can
certainly, you know, have a conversation
690
00:36:53,055 --> 00:36:56,885
about price, but that 100 percent
is something that people are, people
691
00:36:56,885 --> 00:36:58,265
are uncomfortable to do that anyway.
692
00:36:58,295 --> 00:37:02,745
But particularly around death, there's
sort of a whole bunch of associated sort
693
00:37:02,745 --> 00:37:05,094
of emotional and cultural reasons for
why that feels, you know, uncomfortable.
694
00:37:05,605 --> 00:37:06,505
You know, not okay.
695
00:37:06,815 --> 00:37:11,855
And certainly for Tasmanians, I would
suggest that if you are wanting to do
696
00:37:11,855 --> 00:37:17,295
a certain thing, or you want to see a
type of service, or you want to have a
697
00:37:17,295 --> 00:37:22,335
particular kind of experience, and you
are getting, you know, some pushback or
698
00:37:22,335 --> 00:37:28,455
some reticence to, if not, you know, if
not get it done, or then at least give you
699
00:37:28,665 --> 00:37:32,555
pretty clear and straightforward reasons
why it couldn't be, then yeah, I guess
700
00:37:32,555 --> 00:37:34,275
my steer would just be to keep asking.
701
00:37:34,835 --> 00:37:39,585
Call the next person and ask them, because
there's certainly a lot that could be
702
00:37:39,585 --> 00:37:41,195
done in that space if people wanted to.
703
00:37:41,705 --> 00:37:45,785
From a, sort of like a legislative
and regulation level, 100%, there's
704
00:37:46,295 --> 00:37:48,035
all sorts of things that people
could do if they would like.
705
00:37:48,790 --> 00:37:50,130
It's a pretty lame web introduction.
706
00:37:50,460 --> 00:37:55,240
Catherine: I thought it might be good to
perhaps do a bit of rapid fire questions.
707
00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:59,637
Maybe some you know, questions that
people might have in relation to
708
00:37:59,637 --> 00:38:02,090
water cremation and the process.
709
00:38:02,090 --> 00:38:02,985
Luke: So,
710
00:38:02,985 --> 00:38:07,010
Catherine: can anyone use
your services in Australia?
711
00:38:07,310 --> 00:38:08,350
Luke: Theoretically, yes.
712
00:38:08,915 --> 00:38:11,775
In practice, that is more complex.
713
00:38:12,175 --> 00:38:15,865
The two things that influence that,
state by state legislation on the
714
00:38:15,875 --> 00:38:20,305
movement of remains by air, actually,
it's probably an important point.
715
00:38:20,815 --> 00:38:25,565
And the other one is just the
cost that that adds to everything.
716
00:38:25,875 --> 00:38:29,835
So, the answer is yes, you could, if you
gave me a call from anywhere in Australia,
717
00:38:29,835 --> 00:38:33,795
and like, this is what I would like to
do, this is what my loved one wanted.
718
00:38:34,105 --> 00:38:38,255
A water cremation and Tasmania is the
place that I want to go and get that done.
719
00:38:38,795 --> 00:38:43,615
It's absolutely able to be arranged,
but it often, for a bunch of reasons,
720
00:38:43,635 --> 00:38:46,175
ends up extraordinarily expensive.
721
00:38:46,605 --> 00:38:48,045
That's up to the family to decide.
722
00:38:48,075 --> 00:38:50,915
What I'm uncomfortable about that is
there's a lot of costs associated with
723
00:38:50,915 --> 00:38:55,575
that, that I don't have any influence
on as someone involved with alluvium,
724
00:38:55,695 --> 00:38:58,175
that there are only certain things
that we really have any influence
725
00:38:58,175 --> 00:39:00,365
on in terms of what things cost.
726
00:39:00,995 --> 00:39:01,725
That's not one of them.
727
00:39:01,725 --> 00:39:04,045
Um, Yes, theoretically, for sure.
728
00:39:04,315 --> 00:39:07,805
The reasons for that are, just really
quickly, so people understand that
729
00:39:07,925 --> 00:39:11,955
the different states have different
legislation around repatriation, and
730
00:39:11,965 --> 00:39:14,955
typically when we're talking about
repatriation, we're talking about by air,
731
00:39:15,345 --> 00:39:19,225
and there's very specific legislation
in most states around how someone
732
00:39:19,715 --> 00:39:21,909
needs to be prepared to travel by air.
733
00:39:22,410 --> 00:39:25,770
Whether that's especially legitimate
or should have been written the way
734
00:39:25,770 --> 00:39:27,380
that it is, is an open question.
735
00:39:28,060 --> 00:39:31,900
Certainly repatriation overseas
is a bit more complex, but that's
736
00:39:31,900 --> 00:39:33,140
to do with the length of travel.
737
00:39:33,670 --> 00:39:36,920
Within Australia, it's sort of harder
to see the justification for that, but
738
00:39:36,930 --> 00:39:40,690
typically, for example, you'll see that
somebody needs to be embalmed to travel
739
00:39:40,690 --> 00:39:45,790
by air, and that there are a bunch of
requirements around encoffining for
740
00:39:45,790 --> 00:39:49,880
traveling by air that are different
from sort of day to day requirements.
741
00:39:50,390 --> 00:39:53,540
And just those two things alone,
before you start talking about
742
00:39:53,730 --> 00:39:55,790
the actual cost of moving.
743
00:39:56,455 --> 00:40:02,315
You know, those remains as in just
freighting those remains or whoever
744
00:40:02,315 --> 00:40:06,915
you're working with in the place that
you are to arrange all of this and
745
00:40:06,915 --> 00:40:11,375
their time and whatever their costs are
around managing that side of things.
746
00:40:11,925 --> 00:40:12,205
Yeah.
747
00:40:12,225 --> 00:40:14,405
It just ends up very, very
expensive very quickly.
748
00:40:14,895 --> 00:40:17,600
Catherine: And so if someone
was in Tasmania, if we take the
749
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,706
repatriation out of it and the
750
00:40:19,706 --> 00:40:20,057
Luke: travel,
751
00:40:20,057 --> 00:40:22,163
Catherine: would they need to purchase a
752
00:40:22,163 --> 00:40:22,514
Luke: coffin?
753
00:40:22,514 --> 00:40:22,865
No.
754
00:40:22,865 --> 00:40:26,024
In fact, that's a really,
it's a good question.
755
00:40:26,275 --> 00:40:29,745
It comes up for people most commonly
when they're talking about a
756
00:40:29,745 --> 00:40:33,735
situation whereby I want a funeral,
but I also want a water cremation.
757
00:40:34,385 --> 00:40:38,435
And that's probably important to
distinguish for us, particularly,
758
00:40:38,505 --> 00:40:41,595
actually, given that we've spent a lot
of time talking about funeral practices,
759
00:40:41,595 --> 00:40:45,965
which is Super interesting to me and
I love talking about it, but ironic
760
00:40:46,005 --> 00:40:50,815
given that Olivium don't do funerals
and aren't interested in doing funerals.
761
00:40:50,815 --> 00:40:53,105
It's not what we are here
to provide for people.
762
00:40:53,575 --> 00:40:56,645
There are people in Tasmania that
are doing an incredible job in that
763
00:40:56,645 --> 00:41:02,525
space and It's, it's not an area for
us, but they don't need to purchase a
764
00:41:02,525 --> 00:41:04,895
coffin when they're speaking with us.
765
00:41:05,135 --> 00:41:08,495
And in actual fact, we can't do
anything with a coffin because
766
00:41:08,515 --> 00:41:11,895
a coffin will not break down in
the process of water cremation.
767
00:41:12,495 --> 00:41:15,315
So that does leave a bit of a
tricky kind of thing there, which
768
00:41:15,315 --> 00:41:17,625
we don't actually have a really
straightforward answer to yet.
769
00:41:18,185 --> 00:41:19,755
I'm afraid it's early days for it.
770
00:41:20,085 --> 00:41:23,845
It's an emerging conversation with
existing funeral homes in Tasmania.
771
00:41:24,445 --> 00:41:27,705
Around, okay, what we would like,
we have people that are speaking to
772
00:41:27,705 --> 00:41:32,585
us that are interested in a water
cremation, but typically for a funeral,
773
00:41:32,855 --> 00:41:34,245
we would sell that family a coffin.
774
00:41:34,445 --> 00:41:36,115
What are we to do with this conundrum?
775
00:41:36,365 --> 00:41:41,265
Catherine: Well, look, just so the
listeners are aware, I'm looking at Luke.
776
00:41:41,535 --> 00:41:46,535
And he has a coffin just behind him,
so you've got a spare one there, Luke.
777
00:41:46,755 --> 00:41:48,005
Luke: I do have a spare one there.
778
00:41:48,395 --> 00:41:48,745
I do.
779
00:41:49,045 --> 00:41:52,345
I got as a prop for a birthday
party a while ago, actually.
780
00:41:52,345 --> 00:41:58,245
It's a really funny story about
children and death, which is that I
781
00:41:58,275 --> 00:42:00,489
had that coffin for a birthday party.
782
00:42:00,820 --> 00:42:05,120
And there were lots of people that
came along to that party and it was
783
00:42:05,190 --> 00:42:10,110
lovely of them to do so and jumped
inside and took photos and hung out in
784
00:42:10,110 --> 00:42:13,580
it and we had a bunch of death themed
cocktails and bits and pieces which
785
00:42:13,580 --> 00:42:14,890
was, you know, a whole lot of fun.
786
00:42:15,570 --> 00:42:20,225
Anyway, then they The children that were
at that party were also mucking around
787
00:42:20,225 --> 00:42:23,025
and climbing in and out of the coffin
and so they ended up marking the coffin.
788
00:42:23,295 --> 00:42:26,135
So what I had, what started as
a borrowed coffin ended up as a
789
00:42:26,175 --> 00:42:27,305
coffin that I had to purchase.
790
00:42:27,855 --> 00:42:32,105
So now I have a coffin and I don't have
a flank cremator to do anything with it.
791
00:42:32,145 --> 00:42:36,835
So what I will do eventually is turn
it into a bookshelf of some kind, but I
792
00:42:36,835 --> 00:42:38,305
just haven't quite gotten to that yet.
793
00:42:38,485 --> 00:42:39,085
Catherine: That's great.
794
00:42:39,225 --> 00:42:42,015
Luke: But the funniest story is
I was cleaning out this office,
795
00:42:42,015 --> 00:42:43,555
which you will be able to see.
796
00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:47,710
But it's, it's a lot cleaner
now than it has been in a while.
797
00:42:47,710 --> 00:42:51,380
But when I was recently cleaning this
out, it still has some work to go.
798
00:42:51,930 --> 00:42:54,610
I moved the coffin into
the hallway behind me.
799
00:42:55,105 --> 00:43:00,965
And then my daughter, who is nine,
was adamant that she wanted to have
800
00:43:00,965 --> 00:43:03,615
the coffin on her bed because she
wanted to sleep in it that night.
801
00:43:03,925 --> 00:43:05,285
Catherine: I can see
why, that's appealing.
802
00:43:05,535 --> 00:43:08,985
Luke: Yeah, it's like a, I think it
falls into the cubby space for her.
803
00:43:09,285 --> 00:43:10,085
Catherine: Yeah, totally.
804
00:43:10,135 --> 00:43:12,215
Luke: Anyway, so I do have a
photo floating around of her.
805
00:43:12,450 --> 00:43:15,490
Asleep in a coffin, which she has
fitted out with all of her blankets
806
00:43:15,490 --> 00:43:20,330
and books and teddies and is dozing
happily, which is pretty fun.
807
00:43:20,330 --> 00:43:23,650
It was a weird bear moment where I
was kind of cold on all my stuff.
808
00:43:23,650 --> 00:43:24,790
I was like, is this good parenting?
809
00:43:24,820 --> 00:43:27,760
I'm not a hundred percent sure,
but is this one going to come
810
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:29,660
up in therapy in 15 years time?
811
00:43:29,700 --> 00:43:32,440
My dad let me sleep in the coffin
in my bed when I was nine and
812
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,070
what on earth was he doing?
813
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:34,560
I don't know.
814
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:35,120
She loved it.
815
00:43:35,310 --> 00:43:35,410
I
816
00:43:35,420 --> 00:43:37,950
Catherine: think there'd be
far more damaging things, Luke.
817
00:43:38,100 --> 00:43:39,030
I think you're okay.
818
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:39,450
Okay,
819
00:43:40,190 --> 00:43:41,260
Luke: you might be right on that point.
820
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,720
Catherine: Now tell me, what has
been the response from the public?
821
00:43:45,110 --> 00:43:49,190
Because you've only really been open,
what, a month, a month and a half now?
822
00:43:49,450 --> 00:43:52,490
Luke: Yeah, this would be week five.
823
00:43:52,810 --> 00:43:53,369
Catherine: Yeah, right.
824
00:43:53,370 --> 00:43:53,380
I
825
00:43:53,380 --> 00:43:56,020
Luke: think, yeah, maybe,
well, maybe it's week six.
826
00:43:56,020 --> 00:43:57,680
Yeah, I'm not 100 percent sure.
827
00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:59,780
All a little bit of a
blur from that point.
828
00:44:00,110 --> 00:44:00,460
Catherine: Yeah.
829
00:44:01,070 --> 00:44:04,730
Luke: I mean, the response has
been astonishingly positive.
830
00:44:04,890 --> 00:44:08,480
And I say astonishingly, because
I think, uh, both Brendan and I,
831
00:44:08,970 --> 00:44:14,870
Throughout the year that it took us
to get open, anticipated pushback
832
00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:16,550
on a whole variety of levels.
833
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:21,110
That just never quite materialized
and the kinds of pushback we did
834
00:44:21,110 --> 00:44:26,050
get came from places that we never
really anticipated and were actually
835
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:31,300
sort of like really boring, annoying,
procedural, administrative things
836
00:44:31,300 --> 00:44:34,540
rather than anything really significant
about what we were doing specifically.
837
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,550
Catherine: And just on that approval
process, what did you have to go through?
838
00:44:39,150 --> 00:44:41,320
Luke: Oh, look, I.
839
00:44:41,875 --> 00:44:46,915
One of the things I've noticed about my
life is that I, for one reason or another,
840
00:44:47,055 --> 00:44:54,525
have ended up being somebody that is
quite skilled at finding the people that
841
00:44:54,525 --> 00:45:00,745
I need to speak to and asking them to
help on things that I don't understand or
842
00:45:00,745 --> 00:45:02,265
I'm not very well equipped to deal with.
843
00:45:02,705 --> 00:45:06,725
And having people happy to do that
with me and for me in my life.
844
00:45:06,725 --> 00:45:07,171
That's
845
00:45:07,171 --> 00:45:08,510
Catherine: a very good
846
00:45:08,510 --> 00:45:08,956
Luke: quality.
847
00:45:08,956 --> 00:45:11,325
Yeah, it's, well, yeah, I guess so.
848
00:45:11,945 --> 00:45:16,915
And Brendan and I are both
people with a lot of connections
849
00:45:16,985 --> 00:45:19,505
across the Tasmanian community.
850
00:45:20,015 --> 00:45:24,265
And so, the reason I say that is that
it ended up being a particularly complex
851
00:45:24,265 --> 00:45:25,885
process trying to get this approved.
852
00:45:25,925 --> 00:45:28,665
Much, much more than we
anticipated when we first started.
853
00:45:29,165 --> 00:45:33,805
And us getting there was the result
of both of us relying on support and
854
00:45:33,805 --> 00:45:39,165
advice and help from a whole range of
people, depending on the particular
855
00:45:39,275 --> 00:45:43,885
wrinkle that had occurred that what
felt like daily at some points.
856
00:45:44,235 --> 00:45:48,775
So, yeah, I just want to make that
clear, but the process itself was, it
857
00:45:48,775 --> 00:45:54,455
was challenging because in Tasmania,
the Berylline Cremation Regulations
858
00:45:55,085 --> 00:45:57,235
were last updated or the act was.
859
00:45:57,830 --> 00:46:01,680
Last updated in 2015, the regulations
were last updated in 2019.
860
00:46:02,035 --> 00:46:04,835
And that's pretty recent for
burial and cremation legislation.
861
00:46:04,845 --> 00:46:08,015
Like prior to that, I don't know when
that actually, I should check when
862
00:46:08,015 --> 00:46:10,875
the last one was before that, but like
the fifties or something like that.
863
00:46:10,965 --> 00:46:13,455
So very recently updated the
office of local government in
864
00:46:13,455 --> 00:46:15,615
Tasmania who administer that act.
865
00:46:15,725 --> 00:46:16,755
It's not always that.
866
00:46:17,330 --> 00:46:18,490
Different state by state.
867
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,450
And you know, so that was
literally the first phone call.
868
00:46:21,450 --> 00:46:25,230
And Matt was there to say, Hey, I know
that we need approval from the regulator
869
00:46:25,270 --> 00:46:27,080
to be able to open a crematorium.
870
00:46:27,130 --> 00:46:28,910
This is the crematorium
that we want to open.
871
00:46:28,970 --> 00:46:32,390
Our reading of the legislation
leads us to believe that that.
872
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,580
Should be okay, under existing,
under the act as it exists and
873
00:46:35,580 --> 00:46:36,820
the regulations as they exist.
874
00:46:36,870 --> 00:46:38,990
And they agreed with us.
875
00:46:39,060 --> 00:46:41,510
This all looks fairly straightforward
at the end of the day.
876
00:46:41,570 --> 00:46:43,570
And so in our heads, we're
sort of looking at like maybe
877
00:46:43,570 --> 00:46:44,900
three or four month lead time.
878
00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:47,880
Got applications to do, things
to write, space to find, like
879
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:48,820
all of these kinds of things.
880
00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:53,580
And in reality, what ended up
happening was a couple of things.
881
00:46:53,610 --> 00:46:55,959
You can't apply in
Tasmania for a contract.
882
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,560
Approval to manage a
crematorium unless you've got a
883
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:00,320
crematorium for them to approve.
884
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,173
Catherine: Oh, so you have to do it
885
00:47:02,173 --> 00:47:02,514
Luke: retrospectively?
886
00:47:02,514 --> 00:47:05,242
Well, side by side at the very least.
887
00:47:05,242 --> 00:47:05,924
Oh right.
888
00:47:05,924 --> 00:47:10,698
And so that was complex financially
because that sort of meant at the least
889
00:47:10,698 --> 00:47:15,840
a base level we had to have a lease on a
building and that again is more complex
890
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,445
than it sounds because It's not just go
and get a lease on a building, but you
891
00:47:19,445 --> 00:47:22,755
need to be fairly confident that you
can put a crematorium in that building.
892
00:47:22,815 --> 00:47:25,745
You know, just all, it all gets
very complicated very quickly
893
00:47:25,785 --> 00:47:27,345
and also costly very quickly.
894
00:47:28,395 --> 00:47:30,735
So we were kind of, we
were going along okay.
895
00:47:30,735 --> 00:47:34,235
And we had an excellent landlord
who we'd sort of sat down and had a
896
00:47:34,235 --> 00:47:37,005
conversation with and gone, okay, well,
this is the building that we want.
897
00:47:37,085 --> 00:47:40,325
And we're going to use this for
a bunch of these applications.
898
00:47:40,405 --> 00:47:42,785
And you know, that there's several
different stakeholders that
899
00:47:42,785 --> 00:47:44,325
applications have to go to in Tasmania.
900
00:47:44,365 --> 00:47:45,605
And he was pretty good.
901
00:47:45,935 --> 00:47:46,395
Hey.
902
00:47:46,470 --> 00:47:50,150
Sort of, well, very good, really sort of
just let us sort of earmark the building
903
00:47:50,180 --> 00:47:53,540
and just didn't rent it out to anyone
else for a few months, just seemed
904
00:47:53,810 --> 00:47:56,990
confident that we would come through and
when we're serious, which we were, so it
905
00:47:56,990 --> 00:47:59,970
was very kind of him, but it did get to
a point where he's kind of like, okay,
906
00:47:59,970 --> 00:48:01,460
well kind of, do you want it or not?
907
00:48:01,530 --> 00:48:05,730
And at every stage of this process,
we felt like maybe like this could be
908
00:48:05,730 --> 00:48:09,660
the week, which isn't pretty taxing
space to be in for 12 months, nearly.
909
00:48:09,945 --> 00:48:12,675
Like this might work if we can
get this thing through that we're
910
00:48:12,675 --> 00:48:15,135
being led to understand this is
the last thing we need to get done.
911
00:48:15,195 --> 00:48:18,065
And so what ended up being complex
was the legislation as it existed.
912
00:48:18,265 --> 00:48:21,025
And this is why it was quite funny
talking to you earlier about ash.
913
00:48:21,065 --> 00:48:27,235
Legislation as it existed said in Tasmania
is the reduction of human remains to ash
914
00:48:27,315 --> 00:48:32,485
by a process involving the application
of heat or flame or by any other method
915
00:48:32,535 --> 00:48:35,115
approved by the minister having the
administration of the Public Health
916
00:48:35,145 --> 00:48:37,815
Act or by any other prescribed means.
917
00:48:37,815 --> 00:48:37,885
Thanks.
918
00:48:38,100 --> 00:48:38,460
Catherine: Yeah, right.
919
00:48:38,460 --> 00:48:39,379
So
920
00:48:39,380 --> 00:48:42,140
Luke: that was the definition, which if
you like, pass that sentence out, and
921
00:48:42,140 --> 00:48:45,670
with all of your semicolons and commas
and all the rest of it, it basically
922
00:48:45,670 --> 00:48:47,360
says cremations, whatever we say it is.
923
00:48:47,410 --> 00:48:50,700
And it was written that way
specifically for alkaline hydrolysis.
924
00:48:51,250 --> 00:48:55,050
So in 2015, when they updated that
act, and you can go and have a
925
00:48:55,050 --> 00:48:57,350
look at the Hansard extracts of
when that act was being debated.
926
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,410
That was what was being talked about,
that at some point in the future, we
927
00:49:00,410 --> 00:49:04,180
know that alkaline hydrolysis is Probably
the next thing coming down range.
928
00:49:04,180 --> 00:49:06,650
But there's a couple of other
different methods of commotion that
929
00:49:06,650 --> 00:49:09,570
were sort of floated around that
have never really come to fruition
930
00:49:09,580 --> 00:49:10,620
or anything being done with them.
931
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,790
And so they're like, we'll write it
this way because that'll capture that.
932
00:49:13,790 --> 00:49:16,710
So when someone applies to do this, we
don't have to go and change anything.
933
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:17,710
Catherine: Gee, that was good.
934
00:49:18,230 --> 00:49:20,000
Luke: Well, yes, it was.
935
00:49:20,070 --> 00:49:21,860
It certainly gave us confidence
at the beginning, but it
936
00:49:21,860 --> 00:49:22,920
turned out not to be the case.
937
00:49:22,980 --> 00:49:25,890
Which is that it didn't fit under
the existing definition as far as
938
00:49:26,270 --> 00:49:27,780
they were concerned, eventually.
939
00:49:27,870 --> 00:49:30,840
And the whole, that all
hinged on what we call hash.
940
00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:35,105
And I guess my fundamental argument is
that You know, either what comes out of
941
00:49:35,105 --> 00:49:39,165
a flame cremation and what comes out of a
water cremation are both ash, or neither
942
00:49:39,245 --> 00:49:42,965
of them are ash, but certainly one is
not ash and the other is not, sort of.
943
00:49:43,055 --> 00:49:46,355
And we did end up with some, it went
all the way to the Solicitor General
944
00:49:46,355 --> 00:49:50,525
twice in Tasmania during this process,
for clarification on the definitions
945
00:49:50,525 --> 00:49:52,535
of terms and interpretation of the Act.
946
00:49:53,225 --> 00:49:57,475
But yeah, in the end, we came down to
the Office of Local Government suggesting
947
00:49:57,475 --> 00:50:02,460
that it would be more expedient to
Change the existing regulations to
948
00:50:02,460 --> 00:50:04,690
specifically name up alkaline hydrolysis.
949
00:50:04,690 --> 00:50:08,520
And it would be to continue
to argue about whether it fit
950
00:50:08,550 --> 00:50:09,910
under the definition of ash.
951
00:50:10,250 --> 00:50:10,850
Catherine: Wow.
952
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:12,940
Who would have thought
that comes down to that?
953
00:50:13,330 --> 00:50:18,390
And tell me, alkaline hydrolysis
has been in Australia in some form.
954
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:19,670
Is that right?
955
00:50:19,670 --> 00:50:21,229
Before you've opened alluvium.
956
00:50:21,230 --> 00:50:23,380
What makes alluvium unique?
957
00:50:23,930 --> 00:50:27,500
Luke: So, as we talked about, at the end
of the day, you know, alkaline hydrolysis
958
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:31,810
is a well known process, scientifically,
it's been around for a long time.
959
00:50:31,850 --> 00:50:36,640
There have been a lot of people over the
years that have identified that this could
960
00:50:36,650 --> 00:50:41,240
have use in the, what we now call the
water, what we're calling water cremation.
961
00:50:41,240 --> 00:50:41,700
Um, in.
962
00:50:41,885 --> 00:50:43,265
final disposition of humans.
963
00:50:43,355 --> 00:50:49,055
And when you are talking about a
process is being placed alongside
964
00:50:49,055 --> 00:50:53,855
burial and cremation matches in
the relevant areas, what is being
965
00:50:53,855 --> 00:50:55,665
accomplished by burial or cremation.
966
00:50:55,715 --> 00:51:01,485
It's not a really simple thing to design
a water cremator that achieves that.
967
00:51:01,535 --> 00:51:02,645
Let's start out by saying that.
968
00:51:02,705 --> 00:51:06,640
So then you have, as I talked to you
about, Earlier, you have a couple of
969
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:10,200
people that have sort of emerged as, as
far as basically anyone will be able to
970
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:14,340
find, I think, the two world leaders in
terms of building these units that hit
971
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:18,540
those metrics and the kind of metrics
that you would want to see for so many
972
00:51:18,540 --> 00:51:22,760
reasons are you want to be confident
that the water that's left over from
973
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:28,300
the process is sterile, there is no DNA
or RNA left in there, there's nothing
974
00:51:28,370 --> 00:51:34,330
identifiably human or identifiable in that
water from the person that it came from.
975
00:51:34,380 --> 00:51:37,550
And you need to be confident about that
with the remains themselves as well.
976
00:51:37,790 --> 00:51:38,920
Catherine: And what
happens to the Waterloo?
977
00:51:39,730 --> 00:51:43,550
Luke: When we talk about the approvals
process for us down here, that and the
978
00:51:43,550 --> 00:51:48,270
variety of stakeholders, We, we, you end
up with a bit of a triangle in Tasmania
979
00:51:48,300 --> 00:51:51,300
for water cremation specifically, which
is that you need the office of local
980
00:51:51,300 --> 00:51:55,370
government to approve the crematorium and
your ability to manage the crematorium.
981
00:51:55,450 --> 00:52:00,110
You need the local council to be
satisfied that I guess the building
982
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:01,700
and the establishment is safe.
983
00:52:01,740 --> 00:52:04,390
And they're sort of like the
final point really in some senses,
984
00:52:04,420 --> 00:52:07,440
they're like that is safe and has
ticked all of the other boxes.
985
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,870
But the third one is the state water
regulator, you need to have had
986
00:52:09,870 --> 00:52:11,159
approval from the state water regulator.
987
00:52:11,340 --> 00:52:15,660
Regulator around what you're doing
because you are accessing and then
988
00:52:15,690 --> 00:52:19,860
discharging water from and into
their systems in one way or another.
989
00:52:19,930 --> 00:52:23,750
And that's important for, you know, just
that's in the interest of public health
990
00:52:23,850 --> 00:52:27,590
that you have done that you have had them
come to the table on being confident about
991
00:52:27,590 --> 00:52:30,698
what this process is and that the unit
that you're using is doing those things.
992
00:52:30,698 --> 00:52:30,926
Is
993
00:52:30,926 --> 00:52:32,240
Catherine: that the thing
that makes you unique?
994
00:52:32,240 --> 00:52:33,099
I
995
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:33,680
Luke: think so.
996
00:52:33,750 --> 00:52:34,140
Yeah.
997
00:52:34,210 --> 00:52:35,475
Well, I don't think so.
998
00:52:35,485 --> 00:52:40,035
I, I know, I know that for a fact that
at that level, alkaline hydrolysis
999
00:52:40,035 --> 00:52:43,605
as a method of final disposition for
human beings in Australia has never
1000
00:52:43,605 --> 00:52:47,455
been offered in a place where both,
where all three of those things have
1001
00:52:47,455 --> 00:52:51,105
been satisfied and certainly not under
any existing legislation for sure.
1002
00:52:51,135 --> 00:52:54,855
But the water regulator is a big one
because the water regulator of those
1003
00:52:54,885 --> 00:52:59,515
parties is the one who fundamentally is
taking responsibility for public health
1004
00:52:59,515 --> 00:53:02,275
in that situation and for confirming.
1005
00:53:02,430 --> 00:53:06,540
and validating the claims that
are made by us at Alluvium as
1006
00:53:06,540 --> 00:53:08,190
operators of a water crematorium,
1007
00:53:08,220 --> 00:53:08,480
Catherine: yeah,
1008
00:53:08,530 --> 00:53:12,100
Luke: would not be able to get regulator
approval from TASWater, for instance,
1009
00:53:12,150 --> 00:53:16,350
unless they were satisfied that what
we were producing was safe and was
1010
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:21,880
non toxic and was not classified
as biohazardous or medical waste.
1011
00:53:21,890 --> 00:53:25,010
So that was, again, an
enormous undertaking to take
1012
00:53:25,010 --> 00:53:25,939
them through all of that.
1013
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,140
that and help them understand that
and then provide them with all of
1014
00:53:29,150 --> 00:53:32,180
the information and verifications
that they needed to be able
1015
00:53:32,180 --> 00:53:33,340
to be comfortable with that.
1016
00:53:33,380 --> 00:53:36,080
And when I say an enormous process,
not because they were in any way
1017
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:40,020
uncomfortable with it, but just
because it's important for those things
1018
00:53:40,020 --> 00:53:42,010
to be clear and to be established.
1019
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,840
And so whilst it was extraordinarily
challenging to work through, just in terms
1020
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,610
of time and the various pressures that
were, you know, Going on at that, during
1021
00:53:49,610 --> 00:53:52,880
that process for us, it is something
that we're really, really proud of and
1022
00:53:52,900 --> 00:53:56,350
we hope can give families confidence
that when they're reaching out to us,
1023
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,400
they are reaching out to someone who
has certainly left no stone unturned in
1024
00:54:00,420 --> 00:54:04,030
ensuring that, yeah, their loved ones are
taken care of in the way that they expect.
1025
00:54:04,250 --> 00:54:07,860
Catherine: It must also provide that
foundation that you really have all
1026
00:54:07,860 --> 00:54:12,960
the checks and balances in place that
you are the true stewards for the
1027
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,024
environment that you had hoped to do.
1028
00:54:15,285 --> 00:54:16,395
Luke: Absolutely, 100%.
1029
00:54:16,535 --> 00:54:20,935
Yeah, you know, if you spend any time,
and you clearly have, but for anyone
1030
00:54:20,935 --> 00:54:24,545
else, like if you spend any time on our
website or on any of the stuff that we
1031
00:54:24,545 --> 00:54:27,925
have online, you'll see that the things,
I think the three things that are the
1032
00:54:27,925 --> 00:54:32,285
most important to us are around dignity
for families, and that comes down to
1033
00:54:32,305 --> 00:54:36,565
dignity is more than just the method of
final disposition, dignity is around being
1034
00:54:36,645 --> 00:54:39,915
able to have choice and being able to
be confident and informed in what those
1035
00:54:39,915 --> 00:54:42,765
choices are, that forms part of that
thing for us, but also responsibility.
1036
00:54:42,765 --> 00:54:42,775
Absolutely.
1037
00:54:42,775 --> 00:54:42,784
Absolutely.
1038
00:54:43,065 --> 00:54:46,795
Sustainability clearly, but transparency
is the last one, which is being able
1039
00:54:46,795 --> 00:54:49,975
to be confident that we have receipts
or the claims that we're making.
1040
00:54:50,005 --> 00:54:55,075
And there's nothing about our process or
about who we are or about facilities or
1041
00:54:55,105 --> 00:54:58,945
anything of that nature that people aren't
able to access if they would like to.
1042
00:54:59,375 --> 00:55:02,345
Catherine: And just can you tell
me, we've got three comparisons now,
1043
00:55:02,535 --> 00:55:06,595
obviously, that I suppose are the
mainstream or could be, you know,
1044
00:55:06,735 --> 00:55:08,855
mainstream options within Australia.
1045
00:55:08,975 --> 00:55:11,985
You've got burial, flame
cremation, water cremation.
1046
00:55:12,055 --> 00:55:15,345
We've got a few outliners, or
outliers I should say, but let's
1047
00:55:15,345 --> 00:55:16,445
just stick with these three.
1048
00:55:16,615 --> 00:55:17,825
What is the difference?
1049
00:55:17,905 --> 00:55:22,475
Why would someone choose water cremation
in comparison to the other two?
1050
00:55:22,870 --> 00:55:26,880
Luke: I think the answer to that surprises
me as well because it's not the answer
1051
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,780
I expected when we, you know, when
Brendan and I were looking at this.
1052
00:55:29,810 --> 00:55:33,580
We spent a lot of time talking about
the environmental impact of water
1053
00:55:33,620 --> 00:55:38,490
cremation and that being certainly a big
part of the driver for us in offering
1054
00:55:38,490 --> 00:55:41,580
that and anticipating that that would
be a driver for families as well.
1055
00:55:41,620 --> 00:55:47,185
It turns out we are finding increasingly
that the driver is Is more to do with
1056
00:55:47,185 --> 00:55:50,915
the process itself than it is to do
with the ecological benefits of it.
1057
00:55:50,915 --> 00:55:54,215
And the word that comes up for people
all of the time, which is someone
1058
00:55:54,215 --> 00:55:58,775
who's worked in the despots for a long
time is surprising to me, is gentle.
1059
00:55:58,825 --> 00:56:01,355
That's a word that comes to
mind for a lot of people.
1060
00:56:01,495 --> 00:56:05,905
And when I say that, I say that with a
caveat because in just the same way that
1061
00:56:05,905 --> 00:56:10,175
families have a response around feeling
that the process represents something
1062
00:56:10,175 --> 00:56:14,605
that is gentle for their loved one, you've
got another subsection of the community.
1063
00:56:14,810 --> 00:56:18,160
Who couldn't think of anything that
they would want to do less, like really
1064
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:23,520
strong, you know, dichotomous response
to it, which, to be honest, is probably
1065
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:27,230
just the case across death, full stop,
which is that people just have, when
1066
00:56:27,230 --> 00:56:30,520
confronted with it, have really strong
feelings, often one way or the other.
1067
00:56:30,715 --> 00:56:35,005
on something and having only had two
significant options in the living memory
1068
00:56:35,005 --> 00:56:38,525
of anyone in Australia that's just
been assumed that it's dichotomous that
1069
00:56:38,525 --> 00:56:41,555
like you are either a burial person
or a cremation person and we all know
1070
00:56:41,565 --> 00:56:42,875
that they're the only two options.
1071
00:56:43,265 --> 00:56:47,230
The interesting thing for me is watching
a third option that's Related to one
1072
00:56:47,230 --> 00:56:51,200
of those two, but I think does stand
on its own and seeing that same split.
1073
00:56:51,260 --> 00:56:54,750
And so then you realize, okay, the splits
around just people's feelings around
1074
00:56:54,750 --> 00:56:59,480
death and bodies and how I feel about any
process represents to me, irrespective
1075
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,070
of, you know, what we're talking about.
1076
00:57:01,070 --> 00:57:01,770
So that's really interesting.
1077
00:57:01,940 --> 00:57:04,720
The fact that it's, people see it
and I was about to say, see it,
1078
00:57:04,750 --> 00:57:06,290
it is a surprising term to me.
1079
00:57:06,455 --> 00:57:09,985
But I think recognize it as gentle and
there's a, I guess I'm pretty, I can be a
1080
00:57:09,985 --> 00:57:13,785
bit data driven and a bit straightforward
about things when I'm thinking through
1081
00:57:13,785 --> 00:57:16,795
this stuff and I go like, Oh, does
gentle really match up with this here?
1082
00:57:16,865 --> 00:57:19,565
And you know, how comfortable am
I using the word gentle and being
1083
00:57:19,595 --> 00:57:21,235
confident that I'm being honest in that?
1084
00:57:21,295 --> 00:57:22,555
And I think that it is.
1085
00:57:22,595 --> 00:57:25,615
And some of the things that you can
point to, to demonstrate that are
1086
00:57:25,635 --> 00:57:30,575
things like the fact that we do get
more remains out of a water cremation
1087
00:57:30,685 --> 00:57:32,035
than we do from a flame cremation.
1088
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:36,790
Often 20 or 30 percent more, and that's
20 or 30 percent more of the person
1089
00:57:36,830 --> 00:57:38,250
that you loved being returned to you.
1090
00:57:38,290 --> 00:57:40,220
Now that is a big thing for some people.
1091
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:42,950
For lots of people, you know, maybe that
doesn't make any difference whatsoever.
1092
00:57:43,030 --> 00:57:47,130
But the nature of the process
is slow and in comparison to
1093
00:57:47,130 --> 00:57:51,150
flame cremation, you know, it is
gentle, I guess, on the remains.
1094
00:57:51,450 --> 00:57:56,030
Because the reason you get 20 percent
less out of a flame cremation is because
1095
00:57:56,050 --> 00:57:59,930
of the introduction of an environment of
heat at that temperature just flat out
1096
00:57:59,930 --> 00:58:04,885
vaporizes more of those remains into non
existence than a water cremation will.
1097
00:58:04,885 --> 00:58:08,080
Catherine: And it's interesting
that people find it more gentle.
1098
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:12,000
And the imagery, when you were
talking about it earlier, Luke, was
1099
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:14,540
the importance of the flow of water.
1100
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:20,390
And what it reminds me of is how
even rock over a period of time in
1101
00:58:20,390 --> 00:58:24,590
a riverbed is always actually slowly
eroded away by that force of water.
1102
00:58:24,820 --> 00:58:27,680
That's what comes to my mind
when you spoke about that.
1103
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:30,860
So I can see how I feel with that imagery.
1104
00:58:30,900 --> 00:58:34,010
It does give me a sense
of more gentle process.
1105
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:35,410
and flowing water.
1106
00:58:35,620 --> 00:58:36,760
So I can see why.
1107
00:58:36,900 --> 00:58:40,070
Luke: And one of the funniest things
about that, just in terms of like real
1108
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:43,460
like specific stuff about Brendan and
I at Alluvium, which is that the first
1109
00:58:43,470 --> 00:58:47,840
process that we completed, first person
that accessed water cremation in Tasmania
1110
00:58:47,870 --> 00:58:50,680
and Australia, frankly, depending on
how you want to think about that, were,
1111
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:54,990
you know, we closed the door on the unit
and then, Press the start button and the
1112
00:58:55,050 --> 00:58:58,030
first thing we heard and both of us just
like stopped and looked at one another
1113
00:58:58,060 --> 00:59:00,690
when it happened was kind of cool, but
it sounded like a trickling stream.
1114
00:59:00,710 --> 00:59:03,370
It was the most unreal sound and
it's not, I would argue it's not
1115
00:59:03,370 --> 00:59:04,650
been designed to sound like that.
1116
00:59:04,660 --> 00:59:08,430
That's just the nature of how that
machine feels water, but it was
1117
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:11,620
a really oddly beautiful moment
where I was like, Oh, like that.
1118
00:59:11,935 --> 00:59:15,535
Yeah, this matches with a lot
of what a family would think
1119
00:59:15,535 --> 00:59:16,555
about this, actually, I think.
1120
00:59:17,095 --> 00:59:21,225
Catherine: So therefore, this leads to
my next question about certain cultural
1121
00:59:21,275 --> 00:59:27,445
and religious organizations or groups
have an affinity with water and the
1122
00:59:27,475 --> 00:59:30,345
role of water plays in ritual and death.
1123
00:59:30,675 --> 00:59:34,705
Do you see perhaps those people being
more interested in water cremation?
1124
00:59:34,705 --> 00:59:34,885
If
1125
00:59:34,885 --> 00:59:37,955
Luke: I'm really honest with
you, this is a question I'm not.
1126
00:59:38,250 --> 00:59:40,040
As well prepared on as I
probably should have been.
1127
00:59:40,090 --> 00:59:43,750
What I can tell you from just straight
out from practice and from talking with
1128
00:59:43,750 --> 00:59:48,060
people is that I have come across less
people that have a specific cultural or
1129
00:59:48,060 --> 00:59:52,490
religious affinity with water that are
interested than I have of people with
1130
00:59:52,490 --> 00:59:56,275
specific associations with flame that are
not interested, which makes sense to me.
1131
00:59:56,325 --> 00:59:57,675
Or burial that are not interested.
1132
00:59:57,725 --> 00:59:58,025
Yeah.
1133
00:59:58,025 --> 01:00:00,325
So it's not the greatest answer
for that question for you.
1134
01:00:00,335 --> 01:00:04,245
I'm really sorry, but there are certain
religious and cultural places where,
1135
01:00:04,335 --> 01:00:06,155
where it is just burial is the option.
1136
01:00:06,495 --> 01:00:07,185
That's what you do.
1137
01:00:07,695 --> 01:00:11,265
And others where flame is just
the option and that's all that is
1138
01:00:11,265 --> 01:00:12,745
available and all that is okay.
1139
01:00:12,795 --> 01:00:15,935
All of those people feel comfortable with
probably the Catholic church and water
1140
01:00:15,935 --> 01:00:17,655
cremation is a really interesting one.
1141
01:00:17,675 --> 01:00:21,075
Apart from that, I don't have as
much to come back for on that one.
1142
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:25,160
Catherine: Well, maybe can you come
back, you know, this time next year
1143
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:28,240
and we can see where things are at,
because, you know, I asked you to
1144
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:34,230
come on six weeks in, so I'd be really
fascinated to see, you know, what sort
1145
01:00:34,230 --> 01:00:39,440
of trends you find and, you know, what
are your, Aspirations for the future.
1146
01:00:39,710 --> 01:00:41,330
What are you and Brendan looking at doing?
1147
01:00:41,830 --> 01:00:45,580
Luke: Well, you are right that
you've got us about six weeks in.
1148
01:00:45,610 --> 01:00:48,700
So I think even the notion of
thinking about the future is,
1149
01:00:49,550 --> 01:00:50,740
Catherine: Sorry, it's too early.
1150
01:00:51,290 --> 01:00:52,250
Luke: No, no, no, no.
1151
01:00:52,250 --> 01:00:54,270
It's, yeah, I would put it this way.
1152
01:00:54,320 --> 01:01:00,380
We have been very, Encouraged by
the immediate and initial uptake of
1153
01:01:00,380 --> 01:01:03,590
families and trusting their loved
ones to us, which has been absolutely
1154
01:01:03,590 --> 01:01:05,930
beautiful and honestly a privilege.
1155
01:01:06,100 --> 01:01:09,590
And there have been parts of that process
that Brendan and I have been involved
1156
01:01:09,590 --> 01:01:14,330
with that have caught us by surprise of
some of the beautiful things that we get
1157
01:01:14,330 --> 01:01:18,480
to be a part of that we probably hadn't
really thought about that much because.
1158
01:01:18,915 --> 01:01:22,285
We are essentially a direct cremation,
well not essentially, we just
1159
01:01:22,355 --> 01:01:23,935
are a direct cremation service.
1160
01:01:24,075 --> 01:01:27,535
We're not doing those memorials and
funerals and those things where you get
1161
01:01:27,535 --> 01:01:32,625
to spend a lot of time with families and
hear from and find out about their worlds.
1162
01:01:33,145 --> 01:01:37,435
One of the things I'm really excited
about is the idea that, and this comes
1163
01:01:37,435 --> 01:01:42,295
from experience in the death space,
full stop, is that even for a direct
1164
01:01:42,295 --> 01:01:46,825
cremation, for those families who just
make a call and go, I would like you
1165
01:01:46,825 --> 01:01:50,585
to take care of my nan, and then just
return me the ashes, that's all I need.
1166
01:01:50,735 --> 01:01:55,105
What excites me is I know how much
more beautiful that process can be.
1167
01:01:55,645 --> 01:02:00,835
For that family and is often available
in the space at the moment that doesn't
1168
01:02:00,845 --> 01:02:08,025
have to be an embarrassing or viewed as
a budget or uncaring option for a family
1169
01:02:08,055 --> 01:02:12,435
there is so much that can be built into
that and done for those families in those
1170
01:02:12,435 --> 01:02:16,965
moments that I would like to say so when
I think about the future and I have spent
1171
01:02:16,965 --> 01:02:19,345
a lot of time talking about the fact that.
1172
01:02:19,665 --> 01:02:23,205
What we would love to see is for this
to be something that a family can be
1173
01:02:23,205 --> 01:02:25,075
really proud to do for their loved one.
1174
01:02:25,285 --> 01:02:29,505
Not just accessing water, but even
just the process of being proud of
1175
01:02:29,555 --> 01:02:34,510
doing just a direct cremation and then
choosing to celebrate or memorialize
1176
01:02:34,510 --> 01:02:36,250
in a way that means something to them.
1177
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:39,700
So yeah, that's one of the things that
I think is exciting about the future.
1178
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:44,730
I think there's a lot of interest
interstate in accessing what
1179
01:02:44,730 --> 01:02:45,610
we're offering at Alluvium.
1180
01:02:45,650 --> 01:02:48,645
Yeah, Brendan and I spent A bit of
time over the last couple of weeks.
1181
01:02:48,785 --> 01:02:50,735
Like I said, probably in
a way that surprises me.
1182
01:02:50,885 --> 01:02:53,105
Just trying to think through
what that could look like.
1183
01:02:53,155 --> 01:02:55,985
So that's why sort of answering
that question earlier too,
1184
01:02:56,025 --> 01:02:56,955
was coming from that place.
1185
01:02:57,025 --> 01:02:59,915
I was going, right, I've actually spent
quite a bit of time in this at the moment,
1186
01:02:59,925 --> 01:03:03,445
trying to figure out a solution for those
families who do want to access that.
1187
01:03:03,475 --> 01:03:04,735
And yeah, watch this space.
1188
01:03:04,845 --> 01:03:07,905
I think we've got, we do have some
things I think will be accessible.
1189
01:03:07,995 --> 01:03:08,875
They're not finalized yet.
1190
01:03:09,315 --> 01:03:10,205
So we'll find out.
1191
01:03:10,595 --> 01:03:14,685
Catherine: So it sounds like you and
Brendan are very much open to having
1192
01:03:14,945 --> 01:03:19,265
conversations with families and discussing
with them what they have in mind.
1193
01:03:19,925 --> 01:03:20,455
Luke: Absolutely.
1194
01:03:20,635 --> 01:03:21,125
A hundred percent.
1195
01:03:21,325 --> 01:03:24,105
And I think that's a really important,
like, it's quite funny because I
1196
01:03:24,105 --> 01:03:26,975
think you sent me a few questions
that you had for me and some of those
1197
01:03:26,975 --> 01:03:30,065
have been taken, I guess, from the
FAQs that we had on our website.
1198
01:03:30,375 --> 01:03:33,185
The actual questions that have been
asked of us over and over again are
1199
01:03:33,185 --> 01:03:34,875
questions that have surprised us.
1200
01:03:34,955 --> 01:03:37,355
You know, who would have
thought having spent my entire
1201
01:03:37,355 --> 01:03:38,495
career working with people.
1202
01:03:38,710 --> 01:03:42,180
Like that people would surprise
you by being different to
1203
01:03:42,210 --> 01:03:43,370
how you expected them to be.
1204
01:03:43,470 --> 01:03:46,640
But I think the kinds of questions they
have, and one of the ones that came up
1205
01:03:46,650 --> 01:03:49,640
that I think is really important for
people to understand and was important
1206
01:03:49,660 --> 01:03:52,790
for Brendan and I when we were setting
this up, we are able to offer sort
1207
01:03:52,790 --> 01:03:54,910
of an end to end service for people.
1208
01:03:54,950 --> 01:03:58,020
When they book something with
us, that conversation can start.
1209
01:03:58,090 --> 01:04:00,810
We're not doing prepaid stuff
presently, but that conversation
1210
01:04:00,810 --> 01:04:02,750
can start pre need for a family.
1211
01:04:02,780 --> 01:04:04,430
And then we have had several of those.
1212
01:04:04,685 --> 01:04:08,945
Happened recently and we can be the first
phone call that is made and we can take
1213
01:04:08,945 --> 01:04:12,535
care of every piece of that process all
The way up until return of ashes and a
1214
01:04:12,535 --> 01:04:16,535
few things beyond that as well Actually
that you know families will benefit from
1215
01:04:16,575 --> 01:04:19,515
not quite talking about yet But I think
yeah, it will be really beautiful, but
1216
01:04:19,575 --> 01:04:22,695
often people think okay I want a water
cremation But I need to call the funeral
1217
01:04:22,695 --> 01:04:25,795
home and then tell them that I need a
water cremation and you can absolutely do
1218
01:04:25,795 --> 01:04:27,540
that We have worked with people on that.
1219
01:04:27,610 --> 01:04:32,150
If it is just that service that you
want, we can do that thing end to end.
1220
01:04:32,260 --> 01:04:36,280
If it is something around the funeral
or memorialization, we can tap in
1221
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:38,060
and out of any part of that process.
1222
01:04:38,070 --> 01:04:41,150
If you would like someone, you know,
and there are some absolutely stunning
1223
01:04:41,180 --> 01:04:42,850
independent funeral directors down here.
1224
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:45,600
And there is a couple of places
at the sort of bigger and more
1225
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:47,110
well established funeral homes.
1226
01:04:47,110 --> 01:04:49,980
There's a couple out of them that are
just some of the most beautiful people.
1227
01:04:50,295 --> 01:04:52,475
Like, they are there to
help you and to support you.
1228
01:04:52,545 --> 01:04:54,855
You can contact any of those
people and we'll work with them.
1229
01:04:55,005 --> 01:04:56,055
That's absolutely fine.
1230
01:04:56,115 --> 01:04:57,935
And we can tap in and out of that process.
1231
01:04:57,935 --> 01:05:01,175
If you go, well, I want, you know, I
feel more comfortable with Luke and
1232
01:05:01,175 --> 01:05:05,725
Brendan picking up and taking care
of my loved one until the funeral.
1233
01:05:05,765 --> 01:05:08,215
And then I want the funeral home
to pick them up and do a funeral.
1234
01:05:08,215 --> 01:05:09,915
And then I want them going
back to Luke and Brendan.
1235
01:05:09,915 --> 01:05:11,045
And then I want an auto cremation.
1236
01:05:11,055 --> 01:05:11,695
We can do that.
1237
01:05:11,810 --> 01:05:14,160
Or I want the funeral home to pick
them up and do everything all the way
1238
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:15,680
up until they need to be promoted.
1239
01:05:15,750 --> 01:05:17,350
And then I'll get Luke and
Brandon to go pick them up.
1240
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:20,910
Like at any part you can sort of switch
and take out or put in, depending on
1241
01:05:20,910 --> 01:05:22,190
what you're comfortable with as a family.
1242
01:05:22,370 --> 01:05:25,730
Catherine: Well, that sounds like a
wonderful option that you're willing to
1243
01:05:25,730 --> 01:05:30,030
evolve and work with, you know, whatever
the family's need for their loved ones.
1244
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:34,780
And so much for bringing
Alluvium to Australia.
1245
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:39,390
And I really hope to see it
spread throughout every state.
1246
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:44,845
Luke: That would be exciting, although
there's a part of me that Yes, imagines
1247
01:05:44,895 --> 01:05:46,385
what that process would be like and
1248
01:05:47,305 --> 01:05:49,815
Catherine: it's okay, you can,
you'll be able to delegate Luke.
1249
01:05:50,665 --> 01:05:51,095
Luke: Yeah.
1250
01:05:52,045 --> 01:05:55,155
Catherine: Well, thank you so much
for being with us and I can't wait
1251
01:05:55,485 --> 01:06:00,255
to speak to you this time next
year and see how things are going.
1252
01:06:00,580 --> 01:06:01,060
Luke: Amazing.
1253
01:06:01,230 --> 01:06:02,790
Yeah, thank you so much
for having me as well.
1254
01:06:02,790 --> 01:06:03,450
I really appreciate it.
1255
01:06:06,170 --> 01:06:09,590
Catherine: We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,
1256
01:06:09,900 --> 01:06:11,470
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1257
01:06:12,420 --> 01:06:16,680
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1258
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:18,610
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1259
01:06:18,790 --> 01:06:21,180
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1260
01:06:21,330 --> 01:06:24,060
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1261
01:06:24,285 --> 01:06:28,425
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1262
01:06:28,425 --> 01:06:30,165
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1263
01:06:30,465 --> 01:06:31,815
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1264
01:06:31,965 --> 01:06:32,955
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1265
01:06:32,955 --> 01:06:36,885
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1266
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Resources
- Alluvium Water Cremations
www.alluviumwatercremations.com.au
- My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?
Our guide, ‘My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?’ provides practical steps for the hours and days after a loved one's death. Download it here.
- Support Services
If you're feeling overwhelmed by grief, find support through our resources and bereavement services here.
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