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Luke: The fact that we do get more
remains out of a water cremation than we

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do from a flame cremation, often 20 or
30 percent more, and that's more of the

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person that you loved being returned to.

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Now that is a big thing for lots of
people, you know, maybe that doesn't

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make any difference whatsoever, but
the nature of the process is slow,

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and in comparison to flame cremation,
is gentle, I guess, on the remains.

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Because the reason you get 20 percent
less out of a flame cremation is because

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of the introduction of an environment of
heat at that temperature just flat out

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vaporizes more of those remains into non
existence than a water cremation will.

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Catherine: Welcome to Don't Be
Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging

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open conversations about dying
and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death back to life.

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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations

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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.

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We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging, and extend

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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Today, we are talking with Luke
Cripps, the proud owner and operator

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of Alluvium Water Cremations, based
in beautiful Southern Tasmania.

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Luke and Brenton, his co founders,
journey began when they shared a love.

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of their home state and a
deep appreciation for its

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breathtaking natural surroundings.

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As lifelong residents of Tasmania,
Brendan and Luke have witnessed

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firsthand the unparalleled beauty
and pristine environment that

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makes the place so special.

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And I think we can agree if
we've ever traveled to Tasmania,

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it is a very beautiful place.

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They have written on their
website that they're driven by

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passion for both Tasmania and
sustainable death care practices.

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They founded Alluvia Water Cremations
with a clear mission in mind, to

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provide a respectful and eco friendly
alternative to flame based cremations.

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Today we have Luke with
us, as I mentioned.

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Welcome to the show, Luke.

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Luke: Hi, Catherine.

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Thanks for having me.

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Catherine: Now, look, you and
Brendan established Water Cremations

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in 2023, what is Water Cremation?

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Luke: Water Cremation is a method of
final disposition where the human remains

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introduced to a water cremation device,
into a water cremation device, and we add

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water and a small amount of alkali heat
and time, and over a period of time, those

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remains will be essentially broken down
into their sort of elemental components.

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And so what you're left with on
the other side of that time period

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is mineral bone remains and a
nutrient solution essentially.

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So the body's sort of
chemical constituents.

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Catherine: And how long
does that time frame take?

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Luke: That's a highly variable factor.

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No, highly variable is probably not right.

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Sort of, it 10 to 14
hours most of the time.

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Sometimes it's a bit quicker than that
and sometimes it's a bit longer than that.

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And there's a few different things
that affect how that happens.

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Catherine: And how long has water
cremation been available as an option?

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Uh,

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Luke: well, I mean, that's
an interesting question.

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It depends on, probably they wouldn't have
been calling it water cremation den, but

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it was sort of the late 1900s when the,
process of alkaline hydrolysis, which has

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been well known for a long time, which
is what happens in a water cremation.

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It was being used in an agricultural
context for a few different things,

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but one of those was exactly
the same reason as we use them.

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We're using it with humans, which
is breaking down animal remains

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in an agricultural context.

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But with the reference to humans,
probably maybe the last 30 years, really.

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Is when that started to be something
that people were looking at seriously.

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Catherine: And what country was
leading the way in relation?

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Luke: Oh, that's a, that's
a interesting story.

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So the story of water cremation
or alkaline hydrolysis for humans

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begins with a couple of people
called Joe Wilson and Sandy Sullivan.

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There's a two gentlemen that are
working for the same company, doing a

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whole bunch of things in that company,
but working on alkaline hydrolysis

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as a process was one of the things
that they were working on there.

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And both of them sort of went, okay,
well, we can see that this is something

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that would be useful for humans.

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And the, I guess the ecological
impact of it is, is significantly less

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than a flame cremation or a burial.

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So, look, they had different ideas
about what the best way to achieve

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that in terms of building a water
promotion device for human use.

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And so you ended up with
these two separate companies,

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one based out of the U.

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S.

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and one based out of Scotland.

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So you've got Resumation
and Bioresponse Solutions.

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Catherine: Resumation, was it?

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Luke: Yeah, Resumation
and Bioresponse Solutions,

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Catherine: which

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Luke: is based out of the U.

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S.

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Catherine: Yeah, okay.

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And so tell me, how did you get
involved and interested in it?

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I

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Luke: mean, using the word career is
probably too strong a term to reference

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the things that I've done in my life.

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Sort of my two professional interests
have been death and disability for as

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far back as I can remember, and they're
the only two spaces realistically

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I've, you know, I've worked in.

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So, I have worked in, I guess, direct
disability support work right through to

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managing some various disability services
in Tasmania and have also worked as a

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mortician at a local funeral home for the
better part of a decade down here as well.

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So I have always had an interest
in death and in disability

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and I guess in just margins.

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And limits and what that looks like for
people and so yeah, I guess the story for

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how that connects to where we are right
now is a conversation around a fire pit

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in our backyard with a friend of mine.

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Catherine: Wow.

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What did that conversation involve?

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And how much alcohol?

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Luke: Yeah, so Brendan and I, I mean,
I've been friends for a number of years.

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So I am married to Kylie, my wife,
and Brendan is married to Renee.

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We both have one daughter each.

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And so our daughters met on the
first day of kindergarten at the

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school that they're at right now
and have sort of been coming up.

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So they're nine turning 10 this year.

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And so we met, it must have been
about five or six years ago.

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So I've been friends for a while
and there's not loads and loads.

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Of morticians floating around and so, you
know, when people are friends with someone

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who is involved in that kind of work,
it's just sort of you talk a bit about

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it because people don't hear a lot about
it and yeah, we'd sort of thrown a few

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ideas around in just in terms of things
we thought would be really interesting

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to see happening in that death space.

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Sort of based on my experiences and
Brendan's background is I guess technology

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and networking and that kind of thing
and he and you know, it style stuff and

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so he sort of had a particular interest
in emerging technology or technology

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that wasn't being used or things that
hadn't been accessed before down here,

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but I guess the other side of that.

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was just that, yeah, we've both had
significant experiences around death

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through our lives, and, you know, it
doesn't take very long when you are

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close to someone who has died, or are
seeing that happen for somebody else,

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for you to realize that there surely
must be some things that we can do

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better around this, even for some of the
best experiences that I can think of.

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And so yeah, it's sort of this like
meeting of a few different things

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around wanting to see something
different in the death space,

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wanting to see people offered.

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I'm wanting, you know, sort of
ecological concerns around how can

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we do this better and how can we do
this in a way that is Stewarding, you

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know, what we've been blessed to live
with here, in a more responsible way.

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This is a really big one, I think.

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How can we bring something people,
to people, that they can genuinely

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start to make choices around.

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Catherine: And obviously the custodianship
of the land and the environment

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is a big motive of both of you.

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Yeah.

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And, um I'm not surprised given
the fact that anyone who's been to

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Tasmania will be very much aware of
how much wherever part of Tasmania

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you are, you're always reminded that
you are part of nature and how small

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sometimes you are in relation to that.

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So how did you find out
about alkaline hydrolysis?

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Was it through your role as a mortician?

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Luke: Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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So a mortician, that's the primary
title I'm probably responsible

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for at that funeral home.

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But if anyone's ever worked at
particularly a smaller funeral

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home, you do end up very quickly
with exposure to pretty well, all

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facets of the business, right?

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You know, sort of everybody needs
to be capable of doing a little

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bit of everything sometimes.

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So I certainly had.

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plenty of exposure to, I guess, burial
and cremation practices as well.

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And yeah, for a little while we had a
look at even just what opening a flame

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crematorium would look like in Tasmania.

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But pretty quickly, there's a bunch
of reasons why I don't think That's

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needed down here, but also pretty
quickly just went like, this is not

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something that, yeah, really aligns
with us, sort of, we think there

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must be a better way to do that.

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Catherine: But, um, tell me about some
of those things that sit better with you

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and that moving towards the, away from
the flame cremation and towards water

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cremation, what were those things that
sort of prompted you to do that move?

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Luke: Yeah, so, I mean, in a really
one on one sense, you'll find that

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quickly I'm not keen to beat around the
bush on stuff, but like, it is simpler

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and cheaper to run a water cremation
machine than it is to run a flame

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cremation machine at the end of the day.

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Sort of like all, once you account
for everything that you need to do,

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as a business, there's an attractive
part there for us going, okay,

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this actually makes more sense.

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So that sort of raises the question
and did for us, sort of running

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a flame cremation Oh, you know,
spreadsheet after spreadsheet,

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going like, okay, well, why wouldn't
somebody have done this before then?

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If this looks like it makes sense, but
also aligns in all these other ways.

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So why hasn't, how
haven't we got here yet?

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And that sort of, I think, leads
into a much broader discussion around

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just the death space and how death
and funerals and funeral homes work.

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And yeah, be super keen to have that chat.

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But essentially, and it weirdly connects
to disability actually for me as well.

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So.

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In disability, like in the disability
theory and in the space for

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stop, we have this sort of, it's
everywhere, I guess, but it's really,

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really relevant for disability.

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When we talk about what actually
informed consent means for people,

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um, what does it mean for somebody to
genuinely make a choice about something?

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And historically.

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For people with disability in Australia
that, you know, you'd be hard pressed

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to suggest that people genuinely have
had in, you know, we have had informed

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consent for the things that we have
done and to, done with and to people

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with disability in Australia over the
last few decades or forever really.

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And in the death space, I think it's.

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pretty relevant as well.

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We have seen a shift in Australia
and across the world, but you know,

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if you can look at it in Australia
pretty easily, in how death is done.

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And I don't think that that shift
has come from the community itself.

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I don't think that has primarily
been, driven by people's, sort of,

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what does exist, which is a natural
uncomfortability often with talking about

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or thinking about or dealing with death.

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I think that, yeah, it's better
thought of as the result of sort

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of successive decisions by, I
guess, undertakers originally and

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then funeral homes as they became.

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A thing to, you know, partially
driven by making money, which is fine.

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But sometimes when we're making those
decisions around how to make money, we

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don't fully appreciate the sort of wider
sociological impact of what sort of scale

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looks like in those decisions eventually.

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And so I guess what I'm getting at here
is we get to a situation today where

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Where families, often just people, full
stop, have no exposure to what happens

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from the moment somebody dies onwards.

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It's not a, you know, the death
literacy isn't as great around even pre

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death or palliative care or anything
like that, don't get me wrong, but

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certainly from that point of death,
you know, it's like a black box.

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It's just a phone call is made, usually
under, sadly, quite a lot of pressure.

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Pressure, depending on what, how, you
know, the circumstances of the death,

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00:12:01,725 --> 00:12:05,235
a phone call is made back end, like
everything from then on families are

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00:12:05,235 --> 00:12:08,625
just sort of like along for a ride and
often it's not until months afterwards

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00:12:08,625 --> 00:12:11,485
that they sort of are able to sit
back and go, right, well, what was,

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you know, what was all that about?

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For me, this notion of informed consent
is really important and being able,

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informed consent enables people to make
genuine choices and choices that reflect

224
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who they are and what they want to do.

225
00:12:25,589 --> 00:12:26,310
with themselves.

226
00:12:26,410 --> 00:12:30,420
So at a really, like a really basic
level, just the most exciting thing

227
00:12:30,459 --> 00:12:34,339
about alkaline hydrolysis, or I like the
term water cremation for a few reasons,

228
00:12:34,339 --> 00:12:38,650
but about water cremation is just that
it's genuinely an option that is now

229
00:12:38,660 --> 00:12:43,160
there in that market space for people
and they can make a choice about it.

230
00:12:43,229 --> 00:12:44,869
And they don't sort of
get handed two things.

231
00:12:44,900 --> 00:12:48,070
There weren't always Only ever two
choices to begin with, actually.

232
00:12:48,070 --> 00:12:52,260
There have been more over time, but
it's only sort of the people with either

233
00:12:52,290 --> 00:12:55,700
sort of a high degree of death literacy
prior to needing to deal with that that

234
00:12:55,700 --> 00:13:00,070
have been able to access it, or people
who just have a particular tenacity and

235
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ability to get stuck into finding out
how to do what they really want to do.

236
00:13:03,585 --> 00:13:03,885
Yeah.

237
00:13:04,025 --> 00:13:07,075
But I think the thing about water
cremation is that it really does

238
00:13:07,085 --> 00:13:10,625
sit right alongside everything else
in a way that's easily accessible

239
00:13:10,685 --> 00:13:15,305
and yeah, has the ability to serve
a whole bunch of needs, I think.

240
00:13:15,685 --> 00:13:18,645
Catherine: And let's talk about
how it differs from flooding

241
00:13:18,825 --> 00:13:21,174
cremation in all different aspects.

242
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:22,709
Yeah,

243
00:13:22,719 --> 00:13:23,140
Luke: for sure.

244
00:13:23,439 --> 00:13:27,980
One of the things that Brendan and I have
been realising really, really quickly, and

245
00:13:28,090 --> 00:13:33,149
I think it's a function for me personally,
I can only speak from where you are,

246
00:13:33,220 --> 00:13:38,369
but for me, I think one of the things
that's become obvious to me is, I guess,

247
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death literacy just isn't as high as we
thought it was, or as I thought it was.

248
00:13:42,459 --> 00:13:45,699
So again, I'll draw a parallel
to sort of the disability space.

249
00:13:45,740 --> 00:13:49,480
I presented a paper at a conference
a couple of years ago on employment

250
00:13:49,530 --> 00:13:52,470
and disability and how we think about
employment for people with disability and

251
00:13:52,470 --> 00:13:56,140
why we see the rates that we do for of
employment for people with disability.

252
00:13:56,180 --> 00:13:59,729
And it was an interesting moment and it
was a semi controversial, it's not quite

253
00:13:59,729 --> 00:14:03,120
the right word, but it was a bit of a
tricky moment in that conference because

254
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I felt and feel like we do know why people
with disability often don't end up in

255
00:14:07,350 --> 00:14:09,579
employment, but in the space, and this is.

256
00:14:09,835 --> 00:14:13,425
The more relevant part here, in
the disability space, we have a way

257
00:14:13,465 --> 00:14:16,675
of working with and thinking about
people with disability is really

258
00:14:16,675 --> 00:14:20,224
beautiful, but that doesn't necessarily
reflect the rest of the culture.

259
00:14:20,284 --> 00:14:23,534
And when you're sort of just constantly
in that space, you can fall into a bit

260
00:14:23,534 --> 00:14:27,265
of a trap of assuming that everyone
else in Society and the world around

261
00:14:27,265 --> 00:14:28,675
you is sort of on the same page.

262
00:14:28,705 --> 00:14:31,585
And then you go out there and you're like,
Oh no, they're not, not by a long shot.

263
00:14:31,605 --> 00:14:33,535
I think it was a similar
thing around death for me.

264
00:14:33,535 --> 00:14:36,185
I was like, okay, the people that
I spend time with and the things

265
00:14:36,185 --> 00:14:39,954
that I do and the work that I do
sort of maybe had me assuming that

266
00:14:39,954 --> 00:14:41,184
people knew more than they did.

267
00:14:41,215 --> 00:14:45,515
So the answer for differences between
flame cremation and water cremation

268
00:14:45,575 --> 00:14:47,935
is hard to start talking about
without talking about flame cremation.

269
00:14:48,105 --> 00:14:50,955
Because lots and lots of people
don't really understand even

270
00:14:50,955 --> 00:14:52,065
what a flame cremation is.

271
00:14:52,115 --> 00:14:53,845
And that's become very, very obvious.

272
00:14:53,915 --> 00:14:57,465
And so I think lots of people just have
this idea in their head that it's very,

273
00:14:57,465 --> 00:15:00,825
very similar to whatever they would
see in a movie, which is that maybe

274
00:15:00,825 --> 00:15:05,454
there's a wall and a door opens up and
somebody goes in and the door closes.

275
00:15:05,584 --> 00:15:09,550
And often instantly, actually,
there's a thing that is really common.

276
00:15:09,630 --> 00:15:13,480
The heat is so hot that it's instantly,
what we end up with is this sort

277
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,560
of neat, small pile of ash, which,
yeah, just, I was going to say

278
00:15:17,590 --> 00:15:19,080
couldn't be farther from the truth.

279
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:20,530
It's not couldn't be
farther from the truth.

280
00:15:20,530 --> 00:15:20,919
It's there.

281
00:15:20,929 --> 00:15:23,760
It's just, there's a lot of things
that go on in a flame cremation

282
00:15:23,890 --> 00:15:26,099
that people don't fully appreciate.

283
00:15:26,279 --> 00:15:26,569
Catherine: Yeah.

284
00:15:26,619 --> 00:15:29,980
And I think that as you were
saying is that previously about

285
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:31,310
just that distance that we have.

286
00:15:31,795 --> 00:15:37,215
We generally, historically, have engaged
someone, we make the phone call, we

287
00:15:37,445 --> 00:15:42,414
engage them, the body is removed from
where it needs to be and then the next

288
00:15:42,414 --> 00:15:47,885
time you really see the body, maybe
at the funeral, or it may just be

289
00:15:47,885 --> 00:15:53,925
returned to you in two little boxes,
cardboard boxes, in a nice carry bag.

290
00:15:54,255 --> 00:15:54,745
With a card.

291
00:15:55,195 --> 00:15:59,045
And that's all people really
need to see and maybe people

292
00:15:59,045 --> 00:16:00,394
don't think much more of that.

293
00:16:00,395 --> 00:16:00,737
But

294
00:16:00,737 --> 00:16:01,422
Luke: there is

295
00:16:01,422 --> 00:16:03,555
Catherine: a whole
process, isn't there, Luke?

296
00:16:03,964 --> 00:16:04,524
Luke: Absolutely.

297
00:16:04,594 --> 00:16:08,114
Yeah, there are a lot of things that
happen between that first call and

298
00:16:08,114 --> 00:16:11,935
between, or even between that first
call and somebody, being cremated.

299
00:16:11,985 --> 00:16:14,585
But even the process, you know,
I think for reasons that will

300
00:16:14,795 --> 00:16:16,625
become more obvious as we talk.

301
00:16:16,725 --> 00:16:16,995
Yeah.

302
00:16:17,055 --> 00:16:20,385
I just think it's important to
think of cremation as a process.

303
00:16:20,525 --> 00:16:23,424
It's sort of not a discrete
event that happens.

304
00:16:23,455 --> 00:16:27,094
Um, there's quite a few things that happen
in a cremation, both for water and flame.

305
00:16:27,145 --> 00:16:28,295
And some of those things are the same.

306
00:16:28,295 --> 00:16:29,705
And some of those things
are a little bit different.

307
00:16:29,755 --> 00:16:30,715
Some of them are drastically different.

308
00:16:31,325 --> 00:16:34,490
Catherine: So maybe do you want to
talk us through that process and

309
00:16:34,490 --> 00:16:36,214
perhaps draw parallels between the two?

310
00:16:36,595 --> 00:16:37,095
Luke: Absolutely.

311
00:16:37,185 --> 00:16:37,455
Yeah.

312
00:16:37,625 --> 00:16:42,415
So when we talk about a flame cremation,
and I'm, again, I will suggest I'm only,

313
00:16:42,475 --> 00:16:43,875
I'm speaking from, I guess, Tasmania here.

314
00:16:44,375 --> 00:16:46,844
So there are different flame
cremators around, but I do know

315
00:16:46,845 --> 00:16:50,985
the Tasmanian space and the flame
cremators that are used down here are

316
00:16:51,015 --> 00:16:57,255
not dissimilar to a large fireplace
or a large pizza oven style thing.

317
00:16:57,265 --> 00:16:59,954
So it is a chamber built with fire bricks.

318
00:17:00,210 --> 00:17:04,280
to retain heat and they typically
have one, sometimes a couple of

319
00:17:04,290 --> 00:17:08,839
large flame vents that are run
on either LP or natural gas.

320
00:17:08,929 --> 00:17:11,419
And so in one sense, it's
a very simple thing, right?

321
00:17:11,529 --> 00:17:14,869
It's as simple as people imagine it,
which is that somebody goes in there

322
00:17:14,929 --> 00:17:18,590
and those flame vents are turned on
and the temperature is raised and

323
00:17:18,590 --> 00:17:21,589
maintained in there, usually anywhere
from like sort of 900 to 1000 degrees.

324
00:17:21,940 --> 00:17:23,819
a thousand degrees, sometimes Celsius.

325
00:17:23,849 --> 00:17:25,480
And then what is left is ash.

326
00:17:25,819 --> 00:17:27,950
And ash is a whole conversation as well.

327
00:17:28,099 --> 00:17:31,750
In practice, what people often don't
really understand is that just the nature

328
00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:36,010
of how these are designed is it's just a
very active process of flame cremation.

329
00:17:36,140 --> 00:17:40,170
So running a flame cremation or as
a cremator operator is kind of an

330
00:17:40,180 --> 00:17:43,660
active process of being there and
being involved in opening and shutting

331
00:17:43,660 --> 00:17:45,340
the door and maintaining temperature.

332
00:17:45,340 --> 00:17:48,510
And, I guess moving remains
through flame as well.

333
00:17:48,610 --> 00:17:52,320
And so, you know, you're talking about
using things like a rake to ensure that

334
00:17:52,330 --> 00:17:56,070
you can make sure that every part of
the body has been accessed by a flame,

335
00:17:56,070 --> 00:18:00,030
not just as an ambient environment, but
directly by the flame from vents as well.

336
00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:04,560
And yeah, it's what you end up with
at the end of that process is I guess

337
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:05,810
what we would call mineral bone.

338
00:18:06,409 --> 00:18:09,470
remains, primarily calcium
phosphate or calcium sulfate.

339
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,250
And those bone remains are
visibly human bone, typically.

340
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,600
So that's something that I think
people often don't understand

341
00:18:15,610 --> 00:18:18,209
because when we talk about a process
of cremation, we don't get ash

342
00:18:18,210 --> 00:18:19,519
from the cremator itself, I guess.

343
00:18:19,589 --> 00:18:23,520
So, you know, you have these visibly
human bones that are often broken up

344
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,860
and fragmented and they're, they're
swept into a pile and then taken out

345
00:18:26,860 --> 00:18:31,005
of a flame cremator and then processed
into what we refer to as ash now.

346
00:18:31,125 --> 00:18:34,725
In terms of drawing parallels
to water cremation, the several

347
00:18:34,725 --> 00:18:36,235
steps are exactly the same.

348
00:18:36,235 --> 00:18:39,525
So we have a person that's
introduced to a cremator.

349
00:18:39,930 --> 00:18:43,930
Which in our case is a machine
built by Bioresponse Solutions.

350
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,430
And instead of gas, we're
using water, essentially.

351
00:18:48,450 --> 00:18:51,500
So water fills up in that chamber
to a certain level, and that's

352
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,729
determined by a number of factors
prior to someone going in.

353
00:18:54,830 --> 00:18:59,630
And then we also introduce an alkali
salt, which is potassium hydroxide.

354
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:04,479
That water is then heated, not boiling,
but to hot, certainly, to about 93 to 95.

355
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,620
95 degrees and the water is circulated
through that machine over and over

356
00:19:08,620 --> 00:19:12,520
and over so that water is flowing over
those remains and when you introduce

357
00:19:12,590 --> 00:19:18,579
heat and alkalinity and water flow
particularly to anything that is,

358
00:19:18,789 --> 00:19:22,420
you know, a protein based compound, a
process of alkaline hydrolysis happens.

359
00:19:22,514 --> 00:19:26,225
Which is that those sort of hydrogen
bombs are broken down by that process.

360
00:19:26,274 --> 00:19:29,715
And actually what some people don't really
understand, lots of people think that

361
00:19:29,745 --> 00:19:34,135
it's the alkali that's doing the work, but
it's sort of like the alkali is providing

362
00:19:34,135 --> 00:19:35,514
an environment for the work to happen.

363
00:19:35,514 --> 00:19:38,784
The work is actually happening through
the flow of water, those molecules

364
00:19:38,814 --> 00:19:41,965
hitting one another in the right kind
of environment over and over again.

365
00:19:42,305 --> 00:19:45,985
Through water flow is what allows those
bonds to break down and then the bonds

366
00:19:45,985 --> 00:19:48,865
that don't break down that are left in
the cremator Exactly what we get out

367
00:19:48,865 --> 00:19:52,475
of a flame cremation, which is calcium
phosphate almost always calcium phosphate

368
00:19:52,715 --> 00:19:56,104
in alkaline hydrolysis Plus anything
else that won't break down like hips

369
00:19:56,104 --> 00:19:59,244
and implants and pacemakers and things
like that that'll come out as well

370
00:19:59,654 --> 00:20:02,334
Catherine: I know when You
have to do flame cremation.

371
00:20:02,335 --> 00:20:05,883
You need to remove pacemakers because of

372
00:20:05,883 --> 00:20:06,390
Luke: the

373
00:20:06,390 --> 00:20:06,897
Catherine: battery.

374
00:20:06,897 --> 00:20:10,594
Do you have to do that in an
alkaline hydrolysis process?

375
00:20:10,854 --> 00:20:11,764
Luke: No, we don't.

376
00:20:11,874 --> 00:20:13,344
And again, yeah, it's a great point.

377
00:20:13,685 --> 00:20:17,775
To raise because in, yeah, in a
flame cremation, we can't, I don't

378
00:20:17,775 --> 00:20:19,274
actually know how serious it is.

379
00:20:19,274 --> 00:20:22,935
I struggle to imagine it to be an enormous
issue, given what's actually going on

380
00:20:22,935 --> 00:20:26,534
inside a flame cremator, a tiny battery
goes bang, but it certainly is standard

381
00:20:26,534 --> 00:20:27,964
practice everywhere in Australia.

382
00:20:28,034 --> 00:20:29,955
And maybe there was something
that happened at some point that.

383
00:20:30,310 --> 00:20:33,560
meant that we put this into legislation,
but it is standard practice that if

384
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:37,249
someone is being cremated by flame and
they have an implanted medical device

385
00:20:37,259 --> 00:20:40,110
that is powered, so a pacemaker and
there are some other things as well,

386
00:20:40,189 --> 00:20:43,529
sometimes, that that needs to be removed
prior to that person being cremated.

387
00:20:43,609 --> 00:20:45,790
And that's one of the last things
that gets checked, actually,

388
00:20:45,929 --> 00:20:46,899
prior to someone being cremated.

389
00:20:46,929 --> 00:20:47,389
Catherine: Yeah, right.

390
00:20:47,389 --> 00:20:50,070
And tell me, Luke, we've got the
bones, regardless of whether we've

391
00:20:50,070 --> 00:20:54,814
been through alkaline hydrolysis or
flame cremation, what then happens?

392
00:20:54,985 --> 00:20:56,064
Luke: Well, I think it is.

393
00:20:57,384 --> 00:20:59,685
I think the coolest term for
that is it's bone shadow.

394
00:20:59,764 --> 00:21:00,455
What you have.

395
00:21:00,764 --> 00:21:01,074
Catherine: Bone shadow?

396
00:21:01,675 --> 00:21:02,905
I haven't heard that one

397
00:21:02,905 --> 00:21:03,228
Luke: before.

398
00:21:03,228 --> 00:21:06,394
Yeah, that's the one that I like best
because I think it gives the right

399
00:21:06,414 --> 00:21:10,184
image to people and the right way to
conceptualize what comes back as well,

400
00:21:10,235 --> 00:21:11,754
which is like the shadow of bone.

401
00:21:11,764 --> 00:21:15,705
It is visibly bone in the same way that
your shadow is visibly your shadow, right?

402
00:21:15,715 --> 00:21:18,384
But there's nothing in it anymore
really that makes it bone.

403
00:21:18,394 --> 00:21:21,874
It is a, it is a, it is a mineral
or a compound like a molecule.

404
00:21:21,974 --> 00:21:23,664
So it's calcium phosphate bone shadow.

405
00:21:23,830 --> 00:21:27,020
So both in flame cremation and water
cremation, you will get this bone shadow

406
00:21:27,050 --> 00:21:30,010
that comes back out of the machine
that does come from your loved one,

407
00:21:30,020 --> 00:21:32,070
that is them, that is a piece of them.

408
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:36,049
And it's particularly visibly
human when it comes out of the

409
00:21:36,049 --> 00:21:37,439
process of water cremation.

410
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,929
And it's helpful understanding how
that flame cremation has gone up until

411
00:21:40,969 --> 00:21:43,810
now to understand why the remains
that come out of there, why the bone

412
00:21:43,810 --> 00:21:46,350
shadow that comes out of there is
quite small and chipped and fragmented.

413
00:21:46,379 --> 00:21:49,350
And typically out of a water
cremation, it's pretty visibly

414
00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:51,000
whole bones that come out of it.

415
00:21:51,030 --> 00:21:52,679
And well, then we have to.

416
00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:53,390
process them.

417
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,220
So everybody knows that we
get ash back from a cremation.

418
00:21:56,250 --> 00:21:59,760
And so that goes into what must
be the most heavy metal name for a

419
00:21:59,770 --> 00:22:01,529
device in the history of the world.

420
00:22:01,879 --> 00:22:05,740
I think we can imagine someone, some
black metal band in Norway calling

421
00:22:05,740 --> 00:22:08,589
themselves cremulator and having
it all designed up wonderfully.

422
00:22:08,589 --> 00:22:09,290
It'd be pretty cool.

423
00:22:09,350 --> 00:22:10,940
But yeah, it goes into
what's called a cremulator.

424
00:22:11,020 --> 00:22:14,860
So those bone fragments or bone shadow
or mineral bone remains, whatever.

425
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:16,550
The term that you enjoy the most.

426
00:22:16,580 --> 00:22:18,860
It's collected up and
placed into a cremulator.

427
00:22:18,919 --> 00:22:21,960
Which is not really a straightforward
way to describe it except

428
00:22:21,990 --> 00:22:23,459
it's kind of like a blender.

429
00:22:23,540 --> 00:22:27,460
Basically like it is a
machine that has a receptacle.

430
00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:29,719
I don't know what you'd call it actually
because they're not really blades.

431
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:30,600
They're not sharp, but.

432
00:22:30,685 --> 00:22:34,105
Yeah, especially like pulverizing
blades, grinding blades, essentially.

433
00:22:34,175 --> 00:22:38,475
And we switch that on until those
remains are kind of finally powdered.

434
00:22:38,514 --> 00:22:41,925
And that completes the sort of
conceptual way that we think about ash.

435
00:22:41,935 --> 00:22:44,975
Cause now when that returns to
a family and they open that up

436
00:22:44,984 --> 00:22:47,364
and they go to spread ashes,
they go, yeah, this makes sense.

437
00:22:47,375 --> 00:22:48,054
This is ash.

438
00:22:48,055 --> 00:22:48,975
This is what ash looks like.

439
00:22:49,004 --> 00:22:51,745
Cause I've cleaned a fireplace
out before, I know what ash is.

440
00:22:51,975 --> 00:22:55,325
In a very, very real sense, neither
what comes out of a flame cremation and

441
00:22:55,325 --> 00:22:58,175
what comes out of a water cremation,
neither of these things probably are ash

442
00:22:58,185 --> 00:22:59,925
in the conventionally understood way.

443
00:23:00,004 --> 00:23:02,475
Even from a flame cremation, we've got
to wrap our heads around because the

444
00:23:02,475 --> 00:23:05,864
heat is so hot in a flame cremation
that we don't get ash out of that

445
00:23:05,864 --> 00:23:08,134
process, like ash is vaporized.

446
00:23:08,135 --> 00:23:10,485
What we think of as ash out of
our fireplace wouldn't be in

447
00:23:10,485 --> 00:23:11,855
there if we'd had it that hot.

448
00:23:12,115 --> 00:23:12,675
Catherine: Yeah, right.

449
00:23:12,745 --> 00:23:17,765
And what's interesting that Again,
it's that sort of detachment that we

450
00:23:17,805 --> 00:23:19,575
don't really know about this process.

451
00:23:19,655 --> 00:23:22,885
I know that I certainly didn't until
I started asking a few questions

452
00:23:22,885 --> 00:23:24,564
and had attended a few sessions.

453
00:23:24,564 --> 00:23:28,335
To be honest, I hadn't thought of
the process, but what I have read

454
00:23:28,364 --> 00:23:33,415
about is also something that has
done in Japan is where they allow.

455
00:23:33,825 --> 00:23:35,075
the process to be cremated.

456
00:23:35,725 --> 00:23:40,665
And then they use, there's a ritual which
they have where they actually go through

457
00:23:40,665 --> 00:23:45,795
the bones, don't they, and with chopsticks
and it's a family ritual, isn't it?

458
00:23:46,365 --> 00:23:48,964
Luke: I haven't heard of this
before, but this is exciting for

459
00:23:48,964 --> 00:23:51,464
me to hear, but it makes perfect
sense to me because it's not us yet.

460
00:23:51,474 --> 00:23:53,745
And of course they could do
something of that nature.

461
00:23:54,135 --> 00:23:54,395
Catherine: Yeah.

462
00:23:54,395 --> 00:23:55,574
What's

463
00:23:55,575 --> 00:23:56,765
Luke: the purpose of them going through?

464
00:23:56,805 --> 00:23:57,245
Like, is it?

465
00:23:57,475 --> 00:24:04,410
Catherine: It's to reclaim their loved
ones, Ashes or, you know, and putting them

466
00:24:04,410 --> 00:24:08,930
in a larger urn, so not your cardboard box
that you get, but putting them in a larger

467
00:24:08,930 --> 00:24:16,430
urn and then still taking them home,
but just in the compound form that still

468
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,400
is replicating what a bone looks like.

469
00:24:20,069 --> 00:24:22,799
Yet here in Australia, that's
my understanding is we're

470
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:23,629
not allowed to do that.

471
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:25,200
It has to be.

472
00:24:25,275 --> 00:24:28,364
Yeah,

473
00:24:28,745 --> 00:24:30,455
Luke: I'll take it under advisement.

474
00:24:30,625 --> 00:24:33,004
That one of the comment about
whether it's legal or not.

475
00:24:33,045 --> 00:24:35,625
I think it's a, our legislation
is different in every state.

476
00:24:35,725 --> 00:24:39,474
I don't think it's well studied in
Tasmania, what has to go on there,

477
00:24:39,785 --> 00:24:43,870
but I suspect, There certainly would
be a tacit assumption underpinning

478
00:24:43,870 --> 00:24:48,010
most of our legislation that when we
refer to remains that go back to a

479
00:24:48,010 --> 00:24:49,750
family, that they are in that form.

480
00:24:50,020 --> 00:24:50,560
Catherine: Yeah.

481
00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:53,390
Luke: And I guess for me that
raises questions about what, you

482
00:24:53,390 --> 00:24:56,230
know, how have we gotten to a point
where nobody, where people don't

483
00:24:56,270 --> 00:24:58,039
understand that about the process?

484
00:24:58,530 --> 00:25:03,290
And there's a, I think most people when
you speak to them about it, interested.

485
00:25:03,790 --> 00:25:07,420
They would like to know about that and
they are interested to hear about it.

486
00:25:07,915 --> 00:25:10,945
Probably, you know, clearly not enough
to go and do a bunch of reading all

487
00:25:10,945 --> 00:25:15,435
by themselves because they're not
as, you know, pretty as me, but they

488
00:25:15,955 --> 00:25:19,074
are certainly interested and are
not really upset by hearing that.

489
00:25:19,165 --> 00:25:22,264
It makes sense when you lay it out
that this is what you would have

490
00:25:22,265 --> 00:25:23,905
to do and this is how it works.

491
00:25:24,435 --> 00:25:27,845
So for me, that, you know, that
raises questions around how we

492
00:25:27,845 --> 00:25:30,895
have gotten to the point where
nobody knows that stuff anymore.

493
00:25:31,095 --> 00:25:35,514
And I would be difficult to verify,
but I would suspect that early days

494
00:25:35,515 --> 00:25:40,494
in cremation, when cremation was
first introduced in Australia, people

495
00:25:40,495 --> 00:25:44,625
would have been more aware of that,
about every part of that process.

496
00:25:45,145 --> 00:25:47,945
But that might be something for
me to go and have a look at.

497
00:25:48,510 --> 00:25:50,400
Because I think there's
lost knowledge there.

498
00:25:50,470 --> 00:25:54,360
People did used to be a lot closer
to and more involved in what happened

499
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:56,220
post death than they are now.

500
00:25:56,740 --> 00:26:00,600
I know, for example, that it used
to be pretty common practice for

501
00:26:00,820 --> 00:26:04,389
work experience for people in school
to go and do work experience at

502
00:26:04,389 --> 00:26:06,210
a funeral home or in a military.

503
00:26:06,219 --> 00:26:08,199
It was not uncommon in any way.

504
00:26:08,259 --> 00:26:10,639
But if you were to try
and float that today.

505
00:26:11,685 --> 00:26:14,375
Approach your local high school
and go, right, I'm going to do

506
00:26:14,495 --> 00:26:15,775
work experience at a mortuary.

507
00:26:16,325 --> 00:26:20,235
Yeah, I think the response would be
different and it certainly doesn't happen.

508
00:26:20,655 --> 00:26:20,915
Anymore.

509
00:26:21,335 --> 00:26:22,425
Well, not in Tasmania, anyway.

510
00:26:22,805 --> 00:26:23,675
Catherine: But isn't that a shame?

511
00:26:23,945 --> 00:26:24,185
Yeah.

512
00:26:24,185 --> 00:26:24,395
A hundred

513
00:26:24,395 --> 00:26:24,455
Luke: percent.

514
00:26:25,175 --> 00:26:29,188
Catherine: Because it's just a valid
career as any other that's on the

515
00:26:29,188 --> 00:26:29,526
Luke: table.

516
00:26:29,526 --> 00:26:29,864
Yes.

517
00:26:29,865 --> 00:26:30,695
A hundred percent.

518
00:26:30,695 --> 00:26:32,434
Valid career as much as anything else is.

519
00:26:32,464 --> 00:26:36,825
But also the knowledge that is lost from
that, from not having people exposed

520
00:26:36,825 --> 00:26:39,595
at any point in their life all the way
up until they're just forced to deal

521
00:26:39,595 --> 00:26:43,375
with it because they're sitting with
someone that they love who's died.

522
00:26:43,955 --> 00:26:46,355
Like that's the point that
people might, you know, mostly

523
00:26:46,355 --> 00:26:47,645
come into contact with this.

524
00:26:48,195 --> 00:26:49,604
And my argument.

525
00:26:50,820 --> 00:26:56,020
And my concern would be that the only
people that derive any benefit from

526
00:26:56,020 --> 00:27:00,600
that lack of knowledge, sort of very
big, well established funeral homes

527
00:27:00,610 --> 00:27:04,889
who, yeah, don't need to have anything
questioned about how they do things.

528
00:27:04,940 --> 00:27:07,210
And not because I'm not trying
to indicate there's anything.

529
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,130
inherently untoward about what's
going on in a regular stock

530
00:27:11,130 --> 00:27:12,750
standard funeral home at all.

531
00:27:12,780 --> 00:27:15,520
It's just that, you know, when what
passes for innovation is like, do

532
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:20,020
you want egg sandwiches or salad
sandwiches at the wake in this space?

533
00:27:20,090 --> 00:27:25,319
You know, anything that is slightly
outside of the, I guess, the flow

534
00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:28,770
chart for what we do from first
call through to returning of ashes.

535
00:27:29,415 --> 00:27:31,595
is a cost to a funeral home.

536
00:27:32,095 --> 00:27:37,215
So the less people that ask for anything
out of the ordinary, the less we have

537
00:27:37,215 --> 00:27:40,825
to be concerned that we have to spend
any more money on a particular service.

538
00:27:40,945 --> 00:27:45,384
And so it doesn't need to come from
some specific kind of like cabal,

539
00:27:45,384 --> 00:27:47,904
like, you know, malicious place.

540
00:27:47,914 --> 00:27:51,784
It's just, that's how doing
business the way we have done it.

541
00:27:52,340 --> 00:27:56,479
As you know, that's where it's gotten us
to where people just go, okay, well, I

542
00:27:56,479 --> 00:28:00,350
get on the phone and they ask me a set
of questions and I answer them and I

543
00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:04,319
assume that all of the questions they're
asking me are because I'm required to

544
00:28:04,319 --> 00:28:07,029
answer those questions as well, or I'm
required to do the things that those

545
00:28:07,029 --> 00:28:09,899
questions are to do with, like have a
funeral in the first place, for instance,

546
00:28:09,989 --> 00:28:15,139
and For me, that's not putting the
family at the centre of the process,

547
00:28:15,439 --> 00:28:20,169
which surely has to be amongst the most
important things that we're thinking

548
00:28:20,169 --> 00:28:21,379
through when we're talking about death.

549
00:28:21,570 --> 00:28:25,219
Catherine: Yeah, there's a few things
that come to mind as you're talking,

550
00:28:25,219 --> 00:28:30,242
and I think historically, you know,
when you think that we used to have

551
00:28:30,242 --> 00:28:35,624
funerals at home, and that was the
whole reason why Apollo was in a house.

552
00:28:36,535 --> 00:28:41,084
And the room was the parlor because that
was where you used to lay out the dead

553
00:28:41,085 --> 00:28:44,854
and people used to, you know, grieve
and, and, and pay their condolences.

554
00:28:45,365 --> 00:28:49,185
And then you're right now that
we've moved from, you know, I

555
00:28:49,215 --> 00:28:53,174
suppose what we do with a lot of
things is outsource our death care.

556
00:28:54,005 --> 00:28:58,175
And so it's, it's someone that's
automatically called, that has

557
00:28:58,175 --> 00:29:03,135
probably taken care of a family funeral
previously, might have been a grandparent.

558
00:29:03,455 --> 00:29:05,375
So it's just a, okay, well, they did it.

559
00:29:06,020 --> 00:29:08,780
Good job last time, so we'll use the same.

560
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:14,530
And I think when I was faced with our
friend dying in February last year,

561
00:29:15,140 --> 00:29:19,700
and there was no precedent, and I was
trying to show the kids, because they

562
00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:20,950
were coming over from the States.

563
00:29:21,380 --> 00:29:23,469
And I'm like, what are the options?

564
00:29:23,989 --> 00:29:29,024
And that was difficult because there
was no one place to show them what were

565
00:29:29,024 --> 00:29:30,934
the legal options available to them.

566
00:29:31,555 --> 00:29:35,915
And again, you know, when I had a
focus group, a girlfriend of mine

567
00:29:35,915 --> 00:29:40,495
said to me, I would have an idea
what to do when a loved one dies.

568
00:29:40,855 --> 00:29:42,584
And hence why I developed the guide.

569
00:29:43,105 --> 00:29:47,514
So there is something to help
people take them through those

570
00:29:47,825 --> 00:29:52,135
steps and those decisions so they
can then make informed choices.

571
00:29:52,555 --> 00:29:52,965
Because.

572
00:29:53,625 --> 00:29:59,405
Otherwise we're very vulnerable and
we'll just fall to a default position.

573
00:29:59,755 --> 00:30:03,404
Now, like you were saying, it
doesn't necessarily reflect

574
00:30:03,404 --> 00:30:05,674
the person who's just dying.

575
00:30:05,835 --> 00:30:08,275
Luke: It raises a couple of things for me.

576
00:30:08,785 --> 00:30:12,015
So when we make decisions,
and this just goes to how our

577
00:30:12,205 --> 00:30:14,069
brains work, our brains work.

578
00:30:14,470 --> 00:30:17,800
Often very, very differently
to the way we imagine they do.

579
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,270
So often we'll make a decision or have
an experience and then retroactively

580
00:30:22,270 --> 00:30:25,610
fit back across that a set of reasons
for why that was the case, right?

581
00:30:25,610 --> 00:30:29,930
So X thing happens to us, we respond Y
way, but then the story that we fit back

582
00:30:29,930 --> 00:30:34,324
over that is usually, yeah, it's to do
with our self conception and how we.

583
00:30:34,555 --> 00:30:38,815
How we imagine we think and feel and move
in the world sounds really unrelated,

584
00:30:39,055 --> 00:30:42,125
but the reason I'm raising it is that
often it made me think of it when you're

585
00:30:42,125 --> 00:30:46,365
talking about, I go to the last funeral
home that I went to a funeral at, and I

586
00:30:46,365 --> 00:30:51,675
think to myself, well, they did a really
lovely service or more pertinently, I go

587
00:30:51,725 --> 00:30:57,185
to where the last place I booked a funeral
at, and they did a lovely service for me.

588
00:30:57,685 --> 00:31:00,415
There's like a weird dissonance
for people to acknowledge

589
00:31:00,415 --> 00:31:01,705
that they weren't happy with.

590
00:31:02,205 --> 00:31:06,675
How things went, because once it's
a bit of a, kind of like an odd

591
00:31:06,685 --> 00:31:10,145
sunk cost fallacy thing going on
for them, where it feels almost

592
00:31:10,145 --> 00:31:14,505
disrespectful to not be pleased with
the service that was given to you.

593
00:31:15,045 --> 00:31:18,615
And so you sort of, you've spent the
money and you've had the funeral and you

594
00:31:18,685 --> 00:31:20,125
sort of like, well, that's all done now.

595
00:31:20,125 --> 00:31:21,205
So it was lovely.

596
00:31:21,475 --> 00:31:25,745
When often what I have found is the
more that you speak to people about

597
00:31:26,415 --> 00:31:30,065
what their experience of a funeral
was or how they felt about it.

598
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,290
Yeah, if you give them a little bit
of time, they'll start to share with

599
00:31:34,290 --> 00:31:36,790
you the things that, you know, in
retrospect, I wish we could have done

600
00:31:36,790 --> 00:31:40,790
X or Y, or this is what happened and
we wish it had been the other way.

601
00:31:40,790 --> 00:31:43,100
But look, at the end of the day, and
then they'll start, they'll come straight

602
00:31:43,110 --> 00:31:46,310
back and start trying to go, well, you
know, but look, it was really lovely.

603
00:31:46,310 --> 00:31:47,250
It was, it was wonderful.

604
00:31:47,250 --> 00:31:49,820
And the people, it's great to
see so many people there or

605
00:31:49,820 --> 00:31:51,140
whatever it happened to be.

606
00:31:51,820 --> 00:31:55,240
And I just see that as a really, it's
just a sad thing for me to say that

607
00:31:55,290 --> 00:31:58,780
that's where we've gotten to, that
people, yeah, just don't have the

608
00:31:58,780 --> 00:32:03,595
knowledge that they They need, at the
right time, to make those choices.

609
00:32:03,615 --> 00:32:05,805
And then I sort of sat with that.

610
00:32:05,805 --> 00:32:08,935
Like that it's one of those things
that you don't get to do again.

611
00:32:09,425 --> 00:32:10,035
So you can.

612
00:32:10,515 --> 00:32:13,135
There's a particular
weight to it at the time.

613
00:32:13,375 --> 00:32:17,495
So you can absolutely, you know, go and
throw a funeral again 10 years later

614
00:32:17,495 --> 00:32:18,645
and do it the way you want it to do.

615
00:32:18,875 --> 00:32:21,875
But yeah, there's something about being
able to get that done at the right

616
00:32:21,875 --> 00:32:24,415
time that feels significant for people.

617
00:32:24,940 --> 00:32:30,880
And again, my concern there is that that's
somehow best for the family, and I just

618
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,150
don't see that as best for the family.

619
00:32:32,180 --> 00:32:35,890
But the other side of the Retroactively
fitting a story back across things

620
00:32:35,910 --> 00:32:39,500
is one of the things that people fall
into all the time is that this is

621
00:32:39,500 --> 00:32:41,550
how things are done at the moment.

622
00:32:41,980 --> 00:32:45,590
So there must be reasons that
they are done that way because we

623
00:32:45,590 --> 00:32:49,750
assume that things make sense and
they don't always make sense in

624
00:32:49,750 --> 00:32:50,940
the way that we assume they do.

625
00:32:51,430 --> 00:32:56,790
So, you know, we used to do funerals
at home and we had a funeral parlor.

626
00:32:57,295 --> 00:33:00,865
And often if you talk to people, and
I have talked to people about this

627
00:33:00,905 --> 00:33:04,455
kind of thing, they will give you
a set of intuitive reasons for why

628
00:33:04,455 --> 00:33:05,875
that might not be the case anymore.

629
00:33:06,365 --> 00:33:08,945
And typically they couldn't
be further from the truth.

630
00:33:09,450 --> 00:33:14,810
Which is that there existed a market
opportunity, recognized by undertakers

631
00:33:14,890 --> 00:33:20,200
originally, to go well, we can take
care of this part of the process for the

632
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:21,520
families that want to take care of it.

633
00:33:21,660 --> 00:33:24,210
And again, nothing about this
needs to be malicious at all.

634
00:33:24,260 --> 00:33:27,880
It's just a recognized opportunity to
go, okay, cool, people are doing this

635
00:33:27,890 --> 00:33:31,010
at home, like we can do this somewhere
that they like to do it, or we can go

636
00:33:31,010 --> 00:33:33,870
to the church that they used to go to
and we can arrange all of that for them.

637
00:33:34,405 --> 00:33:38,915
And so now we reflect back on that and
go, we come up with reasons like, you

638
00:33:38,915 --> 00:33:42,865
know, it must have been a health hazard
to have somebody in the home and people

639
00:33:42,865 --> 00:33:47,305
needed to be taken out of the home or
the children were deeply traumatised by.

640
00:33:47,820 --> 00:33:50,750
The deceased being at home for a few days,
so we need to, we need to remove that

641
00:33:50,750 --> 00:33:52,350
and keep children out of the process.

642
00:33:52,900 --> 00:33:56,370
And none of those things
reflect how that went down,

643
00:33:56,590 --> 00:33:57,870
like how that actually happened.

644
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,120
And those end up being stumbling blocks
for people thinking through what they want

645
00:34:01,130 --> 00:34:04,140
now, because they're sort of operating
on this set of assumptions around why

646
00:34:04,150 --> 00:34:06,439
things are the way they are, which, yeah.

647
00:34:06,740 --> 00:34:08,090
Often couldn't be further from the truth.

648
00:34:08,100 --> 00:34:11,570
One of the most exciting things
and every state in Australia is

649
00:34:11,570 --> 00:34:15,070
different, but Tasmania is amongst
the places in Australia where,

650
00:34:15,570 --> 00:34:16,310
tell me what you want to do.

651
00:34:16,810 --> 00:34:19,560
Like we can, it's not much
that's off the table if you

652
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,170
want to do something different.

653
00:34:21,690 --> 00:34:25,080
Catherine: And I definitely think
that everyone should be asking those

654
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,329
questions wherever they are in the world.

655
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,270
Australia or the world,
to be perfectly honest.

656
00:34:30,980 --> 00:34:34,380
You know, if you feel like you want
to do something and honor your loved

657
00:34:34,380 --> 00:34:37,620
one in a particular way, just ask.

658
00:34:38,130 --> 00:34:43,100
And interestingly enough, the funeral
directors that I have spoken to, any

659
00:34:43,150 --> 00:34:47,445
funeral directors who, interestingly
enough, talking about The fact that

660
00:34:47,485 --> 00:34:51,905
you know, you know, no longer can have
work experience students, you know,

661
00:34:51,975 --> 00:34:56,135
they've been funeral directors that have
actually taken over from their parents.

662
00:34:56,715 --> 00:34:59,765
So it's actually become a
legacy that they've taken on.

663
00:35:00,395 --> 00:35:03,574
And perhaps because, you
know, there was a lack of.

664
00:35:04,105 --> 00:35:05,145
work experience students.

665
00:35:05,875 --> 00:35:11,665
Um, but they've been very open to
make sure that funerals are more

666
00:35:11,795 --> 00:35:16,225
personalized now and that there are
options on the table, which is great.

667
00:35:16,855 --> 00:35:22,295
But what you were saying before, Luke,
in relation to people's ability or way

668
00:35:22,305 --> 00:35:27,765
in which to minimise perhaps complex
grief that can happen after a funeral.

669
00:35:28,075 --> 00:35:34,455
It is a report that Bare Funerals did
in 2022 called State of the Nation and

670
00:35:34,755 --> 00:35:39,495
it was, talked exactly what you were,
were just mentioning about the fact that

671
00:35:39,905 --> 00:35:42,925
people surveyed were hesitant to question.

672
00:35:43,665 --> 00:35:47,365
Prices or shop around because
they thought it was disrespectful

673
00:35:47,365 --> 00:35:49,815
and dishonoring their loved one.

674
00:35:49,815 --> 00:35:53,215
And also people were really
hesitant to give negative feedback.

675
00:35:54,155 --> 00:35:59,131
So, yeah, and we can include that
research as part of this show

676
00:35:59,131 --> 00:36:03,105
notes for this, this particular
episode, but you're totally right.

677
00:36:03,345 --> 00:36:03,945
Luke: Yeah.

678
00:36:04,935 --> 00:36:10,225
Again, there are different ways and
different perspectives on who a funeral

679
00:36:10,265 --> 00:36:15,635
is for and what a funeral should be
about, but it does seem to me that

680
00:36:16,115 --> 00:36:19,315
Whether you are someone who believes
that a funeral should be a reflection of

681
00:36:19,315 --> 00:36:24,235
the exact wishes of the person who has
died or whether you think a funeral is

682
00:36:24,625 --> 00:36:29,405
primarily to do with those who are living
and how they want to remember and how

683
00:36:29,405 --> 00:36:31,725
they want to process that experience.

684
00:36:32,315 --> 00:36:36,405
Of those two things, the, one of the
things that doesn't show up on that

685
00:36:36,405 --> 00:36:40,685
list is whatever is the simplest and
easiest for the funeral home or funeral

686
00:36:40,685 --> 00:36:42,375
director that you are speaking with.

687
00:36:42,915 --> 00:36:43,615
And I guess that's.

688
00:36:44,110 --> 00:36:47,825
Fundamentally, my only point on all
of that stuff, which is that Yeah,

689
00:36:47,825 --> 00:36:53,055
you can ask questions and you can
certainly, you know, have a conversation

690
00:36:53,055 --> 00:36:56,885
about price, but that 100 percent
is something that people are, people

691
00:36:56,885 --> 00:36:58,265
are uncomfortable to do that anyway.

692
00:36:58,295 --> 00:37:02,745
But particularly around death, there's
sort of a whole bunch of associated sort

693
00:37:02,745 --> 00:37:05,094
of emotional and cultural reasons for
why that feels, you know, uncomfortable.

694
00:37:05,605 --> 00:37:06,505
You know, not okay.

695
00:37:06,815 --> 00:37:11,855
And certainly for Tasmanians, I would
suggest that if you are wanting to do

696
00:37:11,855 --> 00:37:17,295
a certain thing, or you want to see a
type of service, or you want to have a

697
00:37:17,295 --> 00:37:22,335
particular kind of experience, and you
are getting, you know, some pushback or

698
00:37:22,335 --> 00:37:28,455
some reticence to, if not, you know, if
not get it done, or then at least give you

699
00:37:28,665 --> 00:37:32,555
pretty clear and straightforward reasons
why it couldn't be, then yeah, I guess

700
00:37:32,555 --> 00:37:34,275
my steer would just be to keep asking.

701
00:37:34,835 --> 00:37:39,585
Call the next person and ask them, because
there's certainly a lot that could be

702
00:37:39,585 --> 00:37:41,195
done in that space if people wanted to.

703
00:37:41,705 --> 00:37:45,785
From a, sort of like a legislative
and regulation level, 100%, there's

704
00:37:46,295 --> 00:37:48,035
all sorts of things that people
could do if they would like.

705
00:37:48,790 --> 00:37:50,130
It's a pretty lame web introduction.

706
00:37:50,460 --> 00:37:55,240
Catherine: I thought it might be good to
perhaps do a bit of rapid fire questions.

707
00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:59,637
Maybe some you know, questions that
people might have in relation to

708
00:37:59,637 --> 00:38:02,090
water cremation and the process.

709
00:38:02,090 --> 00:38:02,985
Luke: So,

710
00:38:02,985 --> 00:38:07,010
Catherine: can anyone use
your services in Australia?

711
00:38:07,310 --> 00:38:08,350
Luke: Theoretically, yes.

712
00:38:08,915 --> 00:38:11,775
In practice, that is more complex.

713
00:38:12,175 --> 00:38:15,865
The two things that influence that,
state by state legislation on the

714
00:38:15,875 --> 00:38:20,305
movement of remains by air, actually,
it's probably an important point.

715
00:38:20,815 --> 00:38:25,565
And the other one is just the
cost that that adds to everything.

716
00:38:25,875 --> 00:38:29,835
So, the answer is yes, you could, if you
gave me a call from anywhere in Australia,

717
00:38:29,835 --> 00:38:33,795
and like, this is what I would like to
do, this is what my loved one wanted.

718
00:38:34,105 --> 00:38:38,255
A water cremation and Tasmania is the
place that I want to go and get that done.

719
00:38:38,795 --> 00:38:43,615
It's absolutely able to be arranged,
but it often, for a bunch of reasons,

720
00:38:43,635 --> 00:38:46,175
ends up extraordinarily expensive.

721
00:38:46,605 --> 00:38:48,045
That's up to the family to decide.

722
00:38:48,075 --> 00:38:50,915
What I'm uncomfortable about that is
there's a lot of costs associated with

723
00:38:50,915 --> 00:38:55,575
that, that I don't have any influence
on as someone involved with alluvium,

724
00:38:55,695 --> 00:38:58,175
that there are only certain things
that we really have any influence

725
00:38:58,175 --> 00:39:00,365
on in terms of what things cost.

726
00:39:00,995 --> 00:39:01,725
That's not one of them.

727
00:39:01,725 --> 00:39:04,045
Um, Yes, theoretically, for sure.

728
00:39:04,315 --> 00:39:07,805
The reasons for that are, just really
quickly, so people understand that

729
00:39:07,925 --> 00:39:11,955
the different states have different
legislation around repatriation, and

730
00:39:11,965 --> 00:39:14,955
typically when we're talking about
repatriation, we're talking about by air,

731
00:39:15,345 --> 00:39:19,225
and there's very specific legislation
in most states around how someone

732
00:39:19,715 --> 00:39:21,909
needs to be prepared to travel by air.

733
00:39:22,410 --> 00:39:25,770
Whether that's especially legitimate
or should have been written the way

734
00:39:25,770 --> 00:39:27,380
that it is, is an open question.

735
00:39:28,060 --> 00:39:31,900
Certainly repatriation overseas
is a bit more complex, but that's

736
00:39:31,900 --> 00:39:33,140
to do with the length of travel.

737
00:39:33,670 --> 00:39:36,920
Within Australia, it's sort of harder
to see the justification for that, but

738
00:39:36,930 --> 00:39:40,690
typically, for example, you'll see that
somebody needs to be embalmed to travel

739
00:39:40,690 --> 00:39:45,790
by air, and that there are a bunch of
requirements around encoffining for

740
00:39:45,790 --> 00:39:49,880
traveling by air that are different
from sort of day to day requirements.

741
00:39:50,390 --> 00:39:53,540
And just those two things alone,
before you start talking about

742
00:39:53,730 --> 00:39:55,790
the actual cost of moving.

743
00:39:56,455 --> 00:40:02,315
You know, those remains as in just
freighting those remains or whoever

744
00:40:02,315 --> 00:40:06,915
you're working with in the place that
you are to arrange all of this and

745
00:40:06,915 --> 00:40:11,375
their time and whatever their costs are
around managing that side of things.

746
00:40:11,925 --> 00:40:12,205
Yeah.

747
00:40:12,225 --> 00:40:14,405
It just ends up very, very
expensive very quickly.

748
00:40:14,895 --> 00:40:17,600
Catherine: And so if someone
was in Tasmania, if we take the

749
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,706
repatriation out of it and the

750
00:40:19,706 --> 00:40:20,057
Luke: travel,

751
00:40:20,057 --> 00:40:22,163
Catherine: would they need to purchase a

752
00:40:22,163 --> 00:40:22,514
Luke: coffin?

753
00:40:22,514 --> 00:40:22,865
No.

754
00:40:22,865 --> 00:40:26,024
In fact, that's a really,
it's a good question.

755
00:40:26,275 --> 00:40:29,745
It comes up for people most commonly
when they're talking about a

756
00:40:29,745 --> 00:40:33,735
situation whereby I want a funeral,
but I also want a water cremation.

757
00:40:34,385 --> 00:40:38,435
And that's probably important to
distinguish for us, particularly,

758
00:40:38,505 --> 00:40:41,595
actually, given that we've spent a lot
of time talking about funeral practices,

759
00:40:41,595 --> 00:40:45,965
which is Super interesting to me and
I love talking about it, but ironic

760
00:40:46,005 --> 00:40:50,815
given that Olivium don't do funerals
and aren't interested in doing funerals.

761
00:40:50,815 --> 00:40:53,105
It's not what we are here
to provide for people.

762
00:40:53,575 --> 00:40:56,645
There are people in Tasmania that
are doing an incredible job in that

763
00:40:56,645 --> 00:41:02,525
space and It's, it's not an area for
us, but they don't need to purchase a

764
00:41:02,525 --> 00:41:04,895
coffin when they're speaking with us.

765
00:41:05,135 --> 00:41:08,495
And in actual fact, we can't do
anything with a coffin because

766
00:41:08,515 --> 00:41:11,895
a coffin will not break down in
the process of water cremation.

767
00:41:12,495 --> 00:41:15,315
So that does leave a bit of a
tricky kind of thing there, which

768
00:41:15,315 --> 00:41:17,625
we don't actually have a really
straightforward answer to yet.

769
00:41:18,185 --> 00:41:19,755
I'm afraid it's early days for it.

770
00:41:20,085 --> 00:41:23,845
It's an emerging conversation with
existing funeral homes in Tasmania.

771
00:41:24,445 --> 00:41:27,705
Around, okay, what we would like,
we have people that are speaking to

772
00:41:27,705 --> 00:41:32,585
us that are interested in a water
cremation, but typically for a funeral,

773
00:41:32,855 --> 00:41:34,245
we would sell that family a coffin.

774
00:41:34,445 --> 00:41:36,115
What are we to do with this conundrum?

775
00:41:36,365 --> 00:41:41,265
Catherine: Well, look, just so the
listeners are aware, I'm looking at Luke.

776
00:41:41,535 --> 00:41:46,535
And he has a coffin just behind him,
so you've got a spare one there, Luke.

777
00:41:46,755 --> 00:41:48,005
Luke: I do have a spare one there.

778
00:41:48,395 --> 00:41:48,745
I do.

779
00:41:49,045 --> 00:41:52,345
I got as a prop for a birthday
party a while ago, actually.

780
00:41:52,345 --> 00:41:58,245
It's a really funny story about
children and death, which is that I

781
00:41:58,275 --> 00:42:00,489
had that coffin for a birthday party.

782
00:42:00,820 --> 00:42:05,120
And there were lots of people that
came along to that party and it was

783
00:42:05,190 --> 00:42:10,110
lovely of them to do so and jumped
inside and took photos and hung out in

784
00:42:10,110 --> 00:42:13,580
it and we had a bunch of death themed
cocktails and bits and pieces which

785
00:42:13,580 --> 00:42:14,890
was, you know, a whole lot of fun.

786
00:42:15,570 --> 00:42:20,225
Anyway, then they The children that were
at that party were also mucking around

787
00:42:20,225 --> 00:42:23,025
and climbing in and out of the coffin
and so they ended up marking the coffin.

788
00:42:23,295 --> 00:42:26,135
So what I had, what started as
a borrowed coffin ended up as a

789
00:42:26,175 --> 00:42:27,305
coffin that I had to purchase.

790
00:42:27,855 --> 00:42:32,105
So now I have a coffin and I don't have
a flank cremator to do anything with it.

791
00:42:32,145 --> 00:42:36,835
So what I will do eventually is turn
it into a bookshelf of some kind, but I

792
00:42:36,835 --> 00:42:38,305
just haven't quite gotten to that yet.

793
00:42:38,485 --> 00:42:39,085
Catherine: That's great.

794
00:42:39,225 --> 00:42:42,015
Luke: But the funniest story is
I was cleaning out this office,

795
00:42:42,015 --> 00:42:43,555
which you will be able to see.

796
00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:47,710
But it's, it's a lot cleaner
now than it has been in a while.

797
00:42:47,710 --> 00:42:51,380
But when I was recently cleaning this
out, it still has some work to go.

798
00:42:51,930 --> 00:42:54,610
I moved the coffin into
the hallway behind me.

799
00:42:55,105 --> 00:43:00,965
And then my daughter, who is nine,
was adamant that she wanted to have

800
00:43:00,965 --> 00:43:03,615
the coffin on her bed because she
wanted to sleep in it that night.

801
00:43:03,925 --> 00:43:05,285
Catherine: I can see
why, that's appealing.

802
00:43:05,535 --> 00:43:08,985
Luke: Yeah, it's like a, I think it
falls into the cubby space for her.

803
00:43:09,285 --> 00:43:10,085
Catherine: Yeah, totally.

804
00:43:10,135 --> 00:43:12,215
Luke: Anyway, so I do have a
photo floating around of her.

805
00:43:12,450 --> 00:43:15,490
Asleep in a coffin, which she has
fitted out with all of her blankets

806
00:43:15,490 --> 00:43:20,330
and books and teddies and is dozing
happily, which is pretty fun.

807
00:43:20,330 --> 00:43:23,650
It was a weird bear moment where I
was kind of cold on all my stuff.

808
00:43:23,650 --> 00:43:24,790
I was like, is this good parenting?

809
00:43:24,820 --> 00:43:27,760
I'm not a hundred percent sure,
but is this one going to come

810
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:29,660
up in therapy in 15 years time?

811
00:43:29,700 --> 00:43:32,440
My dad let me sleep in the coffin
in my bed when I was nine and

812
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,070
what on earth was he doing?

813
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:34,560
I don't know.

814
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:35,120
She loved it.

815
00:43:35,310 --> 00:43:35,410
I

816
00:43:35,420 --> 00:43:37,950
Catherine: think there'd be
far more damaging things, Luke.

817
00:43:38,100 --> 00:43:39,030
I think you're okay.

818
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:39,450
Okay,

819
00:43:40,190 --> 00:43:41,260
Luke: you might be right on that point.

820
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,720
Catherine: Now tell me, what has
been the response from the public?

821
00:43:45,110 --> 00:43:49,190
Because you've only really been open,
what, a month, a month and a half now?

822
00:43:49,450 --> 00:43:52,490
Luke: Yeah, this would be week five.

823
00:43:52,810 --> 00:43:53,369
Catherine: Yeah, right.

824
00:43:53,370 --> 00:43:53,380
I

825
00:43:53,380 --> 00:43:56,020
Luke: think, yeah, maybe,
well, maybe it's week six.

826
00:43:56,020 --> 00:43:57,680
Yeah, I'm not 100 percent sure.

827
00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:59,780
All a little bit of a
blur from that point.

828
00:44:00,110 --> 00:44:00,460
Catherine: Yeah.

829
00:44:01,070 --> 00:44:04,730
Luke: I mean, the response has
been astonishingly positive.

830
00:44:04,890 --> 00:44:08,480
And I say astonishingly, because
I think, uh, both Brendan and I,

831
00:44:08,970 --> 00:44:14,870
Throughout the year that it took us
to get open, anticipated pushback

832
00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:16,550
on a whole variety of levels.

833
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:21,110
That just never quite materialized
and the kinds of pushback we did

834
00:44:21,110 --> 00:44:26,050
get came from places that we never
really anticipated and were actually

835
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:31,300
sort of like really boring, annoying,
procedural, administrative things

836
00:44:31,300 --> 00:44:34,540
rather than anything really significant
about what we were doing specifically.

837
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,550
Catherine: And just on that approval
process, what did you have to go through?

838
00:44:39,150 --> 00:44:41,320
Luke: Oh, look, I.

839
00:44:41,875 --> 00:44:46,915
One of the things I've noticed about my
life is that I, for one reason or another,

840
00:44:47,055 --> 00:44:54,525
have ended up being somebody that is
quite skilled at finding the people that

841
00:44:54,525 --> 00:45:00,745
I need to speak to and asking them to
help on things that I don't understand or

842
00:45:00,745 --> 00:45:02,265
I'm not very well equipped to deal with.

843
00:45:02,705 --> 00:45:06,725
And having people happy to do that
with me and for me in my life.

844
00:45:06,725 --> 00:45:07,171
That's

845
00:45:07,171 --> 00:45:08,510
Catherine: a very good

846
00:45:08,510 --> 00:45:08,956
Luke: quality.

847
00:45:08,956 --> 00:45:11,325
Yeah, it's, well, yeah, I guess so.

848
00:45:11,945 --> 00:45:16,915
And Brendan and I are both
people with a lot of connections

849
00:45:16,985 --> 00:45:19,505
across the Tasmanian community.

850
00:45:20,015 --> 00:45:24,265
And so, the reason I say that is that
it ended up being a particularly complex

851
00:45:24,265 --> 00:45:25,885
process trying to get this approved.

852
00:45:25,925 --> 00:45:28,665
Much, much more than we
anticipated when we first started.

853
00:45:29,165 --> 00:45:33,805
And us getting there was the result
of both of us relying on support and

854
00:45:33,805 --> 00:45:39,165
advice and help from a whole range of
people, depending on the particular

855
00:45:39,275 --> 00:45:43,885
wrinkle that had occurred that what
felt like daily at some points.

856
00:45:44,235 --> 00:45:48,775
So, yeah, I just want to make that
clear, but the process itself was, it

857
00:45:48,775 --> 00:45:54,455
was challenging because in Tasmania,
the Berylline Cremation Regulations

858
00:45:55,085 --> 00:45:57,235
were last updated or the act was.

859
00:45:57,830 --> 00:46:01,680
Last updated in 2015, the regulations
were last updated in 2019.

860
00:46:02,035 --> 00:46:04,835
And that's pretty recent for
burial and cremation legislation.

861
00:46:04,845 --> 00:46:08,015
Like prior to that, I don't know when
that actually, I should check when

862
00:46:08,015 --> 00:46:10,875
the last one was before that, but like
the fifties or something like that.

863
00:46:10,965 --> 00:46:13,455
So very recently updated the
office of local government in

864
00:46:13,455 --> 00:46:15,615
Tasmania who administer that act.

865
00:46:15,725 --> 00:46:16,755
It's not always that.

866
00:46:17,330 --> 00:46:18,490
Different state by state.

867
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,450
And you know, so that was
literally the first phone call.

868
00:46:21,450 --> 00:46:25,230
And Matt was there to say, Hey, I know
that we need approval from the regulator

869
00:46:25,270 --> 00:46:27,080
to be able to open a crematorium.

870
00:46:27,130 --> 00:46:28,910
This is the crematorium
that we want to open.

871
00:46:28,970 --> 00:46:32,390
Our reading of the legislation
leads us to believe that that.

872
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,580
Should be okay, under existing,
under the act as it exists and

873
00:46:35,580 --> 00:46:36,820
the regulations as they exist.

874
00:46:36,870 --> 00:46:38,990
And they agreed with us.

875
00:46:39,060 --> 00:46:41,510
This all looks fairly straightforward
at the end of the day.

876
00:46:41,570 --> 00:46:43,570
And so in our heads, we're
sort of looking at like maybe

877
00:46:43,570 --> 00:46:44,900
three or four month lead time.

878
00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:47,880
Got applications to do, things
to write, space to find, like

879
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:48,820
all of these kinds of things.

880
00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:53,580
And in reality, what ended up
happening was a couple of things.

881
00:46:53,610 --> 00:46:55,959
You can't apply in
Tasmania for a contract.

882
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,560
Approval to manage a
crematorium unless you've got a

883
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:00,320
crematorium for them to approve.

884
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,173
Catherine: Oh, so you have to do it

885
00:47:02,173 --> 00:47:02,514
Luke: retrospectively?

886
00:47:02,514 --> 00:47:05,242
Well, side by side at the very least.

887
00:47:05,242 --> 00:47:05,924
Oh right.

888
00:47:05,924 --> 00:47:10,698
And so that was complex financially
because that sort of meant at the least

889
00:47:10,698 --> 00:47:15,840
a base level we had to have a lease on a
building and that again is more complex

890
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,445
than it sounds because It's not just go
and get a lease on a building, but you

891
00:47:19,445 --> 00:47:22,755
need to be fairly confident that you
can put a crematorium in that building.

892
00:47:22,815 --> 00:47:25,745
You know, just all, it all gets
very complicated very quickly

893
00:47:25,785 --> 00:47:27,345
and also costly very quickly.

894
00:47:28,395 --> 00:47:30,735
So we were kind of, we
were going along okay.

895
00:47:30,735 --> 00:47:34,235
And we had an excellent landlord
who we'd sort of sat down and had a

896
00:47:34,235 --> 00:47:37,005
conversation with and gone, okay, well,
this is the building that we want.

897
00:47:37,085 --> 00:47:40,325
And we're going to use this for
a bunch of these applications.

898
00:47:40,405 --> 00:47:42,785
And you know, that there's several
different stakeholders that

899
00:47:42,785 --> 00:47:44,325
applications have to go to in Tasmania.

900
00:47:44,365 --> 00:47:45,605
And he was pretty good.

901
00:47:45,935 --> 00:47:46,395
Hey.

902
00:47:46,470 --> 00:47:50,150
Sort of, well, very good, really sort of
just let us sort of earmark the building

903
00:47:50,180 --> 00:47:53,540
and just didn't rent it out to anyone
else for a few months, just seemed

904
00:47:53,810 --> 00:47:56,990
confident that we would come through and
when we're serious, which we were, so it

905
00:47:56,990 --> 00:47:59,970
was very kind of him, but it did get to
a point where he's kind of like, okay,

906
00:47:59,970 --> 00:48:01,460
well kind of, do you want it or not?

907
00:48:01,530 --> 00:48:05,730
And at every stage of this process,
we felt like maybe like this could be

908
00:48:05,730 --> 00:48:09,660
the week, which isn't pretty taxing
space to be in for 12 months, nearly.

909
00:48:09,945 --> 00:48:12,675
Like this might work if we can
get this thing through that we're

910
00:48:12,675 --> 00:48:15,135
being led to understand this is
the last thing we need to get done.

911
00:48:15,195 --> 00:48:18,065
And so what ended up being complex
was the legislation as it existed.

912
00:48:18,265 --> 00:48:21,025
And this is why it was quite funny
talking to you earlier about ash.

913
00:48:21,065 --> 00:48:27,235
Legislation as it existed said in Tasmania
is the reduction of human remains to ash

914
00:48:27,315 --> 00:48:32,485
by a process involving the application
of heat or flame or by any other method

915
00:48:32,535 --> 00:48:35,115
approved by the minister having the
administration of the Public Health

916
00:48:35,145 --> 00:48:37,815
Act or by any other prescribed means.

917
00:48:37,815 --> 00:48:37,885
Thanks.

918
00:48:38,100 --> 00:48:38,460
Catherine: Yeah, right.

919
00:48:38,460 --> 00:48:39,379
So

920
00:48:39,380 --> 00:48:42,140
Luke: that was the definition, which if
you like, pass that sentence out, and

921
00:48:42,140 --> 00:48:45,670
with all of your semicolons and commas
and all the rest of it, it basically

922
00:48:45,670 --> 00:48:47,360
says cremations, whatever we say it is.

923
00:48:47,410 --> 00:48:50,700
And it was written that way
specifically for alkaline hydrolysis.

924
00:48:51,250 --> 00:48:55,050
So in 2015, when they updated that
act, and you can go and have a

925
00:48:55,050 --> 00:48:57,350
look at the Hansard extracts of
when that act was being debated.

926
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,410
That was what was being talked about,
that at some point in the future, we

927
00:49:00,410 --> 00:49:04,180
know that alkaline hydrolysis is Probably
the next thing coming down range.

928
00:49:04,180 --> 00:49:06,650
But there's a couple of other
different methods of commotion that

929
00:49:06,650 --> 00:49:09,570
were sort of floated around that
have never really come to fruition

930
00:49:09,580 --> 00:49:10,620
or anything being done with them.

931
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,790
And so they're like, we'll write it
this way because that'll capture that.

932
00:49:13,790 --> 00:49:16,710
So when someone applies to do this, we
don't have to go and change anything.

933
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:17,710
Catherine: Gee, that was good.

934
00:49:18,230 --> 00:49:20,000
Luke: Well, yes, it was.

935
00:49:20,070 --> 00:49:21,860
It certainly gave us confidence
at the beginning, but it

936
00:49:21,860 --> 00:49:22,920
turned out not to be the case.

937
00:49:22,980 --> 00:49:25,890
Which is that it didn't fit under
the existing definition as far as

938
00:49:26,270 --> 00:49:27,780
they were concerned, eventually.

939
00:49:27,870 --> 00:49:30,840
And the whole, that all
hinged on what we call hash.

940
00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:35,105
And I guess my fundamental argument is
that You know, either what comes out of

941
00:49:35,105 --> 00:49:39,165
a flame cremation and what comes out of a
water cremation are both ash, or neither

942
00:49:39,245 --> 00:49:42,965
of them are ash, but certainly one is
not ash and the other is not, sort of.

943
00:49:43,055 --> 00:49:46,355
And we did end up with some, it went
all the way to the Solicitor General

944
00:49:46,355 --> 00:49:50,525
twice in Tasmania during this process,
for clarification on the definitions

945
00:49:50,525 --> 00:49:52,535
of terms and interpretation of the Act.

946
00:49:53,225 --> 00:49:57,475
But yeah, in the end, we came down to
the Office of Local Government suggesting

947
00:49:57,475 --> 00:50:02,460
that it would be more expedient to
Change the existing regulations to

948
00:50:02,460 --> 00:50:04,690
specifically name up alkaline hydrolysis.

949
00:50:04,690 --> 00:50:08,520
And it would be to continue
to argue about whether it fit

950
00:50:08,550 --> 00:50:09,910
under the definition of ash.

951
00:50:10,250 --> 00:50:10,850
Catherine: Wow.

952
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:12,940
Who would have thought
that comes down to that?

953
00:50:13,330 --> 00:50:18,390
And tell me, alkaline hydrolysis
has been in Australia in some form.

954
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:19,670
Is that right?

955
00:50:19,670 --> 00:50:21,229
Before you've opened alluvium.

956
00:50:21,230 --> 00:50:23,380
What makes alluvium unique?

957
00:50:23,930 --> 00:50:27,500
Luke: So, as we talked about, at the end
of the day, you know, alkaline hydrolysis

958
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:31,810
is a well known process, scientifically,
it's been around for a long time.

959
00:50:31,850 --> 00:50:36,640
There have been a lot of people over the
years that have identified that this could

960
00:50:36,650 --> 00:50:41,240
have use in the, what we now call the
water, what we're calling water cremation.

961
00:50:41,240 --> 00:50:41,700
Um, in.

962
00:50:41,885 --> 00:50:43,265
final disposition of humans.

963
00:50:43,355 --> 00:50:49,055
And when you are talking about a
process is being placed alongside

964
00:50:49,055 --> 00:50:53,855
burial and cremation matches in
the relevant areas, what is being

965
00:50:53,855 --> 00:50:55,665
accomplished by burial or cremation.

966
00:50:55,715 --> 00:51:01,485
It's not a really simple thing to design
a water cremator that achieves that.

967
00:51:01,535 --> 00:51:02,645
Let's start out by saying that.

968
00:51:02,705 --> 00:51:06,640
So then you have, as I talked to you
about, Earlier, you have a couple of

969
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:10,200
people that have sort of emerged as, as
far as basically anyone will be able to

970
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:14,340
find, I think, the two world leaders in
terms of building these units that hit

971
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:18,540
those metrics and the kind of metrics
that you would want to see for so many

972
00:51:18,540 --> 00:51:22,760
reasons are you want to be confident
that the water that's left over from

973
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:28,300
the process is sterile, there is no DNA
or RNA left in there, there's nothing

974
00:51:28,370 --> 00:51:34,330
identifiably human or identifiable in that
water from the person that it came from.

975
00:51:34,380 --> 00:51:37,550
And you need to be confident about that
with the remains themselves as well.

976
00:51:37,790 --> 00:51:38,920
Catherine: And what
happens to the Waterloo?

977
00:51:39,730 --> 00:51:43,550
Luke: When we talk about the approvals
process for us down here, that and the

978
00:51:43,550 --> 00:51:48,270
variety of stakeholders, We, we, you end
up with a bit of a triangle in Tasmania

979
00:51:48,300 --> 00:51:51,300
for water cremation specifically, which
is that you need the office of local

980
00:51:51,300 --> 00:51:55,370
government to approve the crematorium and
your ability to manage the crematorium.

981
00:51:55,450 --> 00:52:00,110
You need the local council to be
satisfied that I guess the building

982
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:01,700
and the establishment is safe.

983
00:52:01,740 --> 00:52:04,390
And they're sort of like the
final point really in some senses,

984
00:52:04,420 --> 00:52:07,440
they're like that is safe and has
ticked all of the other boxes.

985
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,870
But the third one is the state water
regulator, you need to have had

986
00:52:09,870 --> 00:52:11,159
approval from the state water regulator.

987
00:52:11,340 --> 00:52:15,660
Regulator around what you're doing
because you are accessing and then

988
00:52:15,690 --> 00:52:19,860
discharging water from and into
their systems in one way or another.

989
00:52:19,930 --> 00:52:23,750
And that's important for, you know, just
that's in the interest of public health

990
00:52:23,850 --> 00:52:27,590
that you have done that you have had them
come to the table on being confident about

991
00:52:27,590 --> 00:52:30,698
what this process is and that the unit
that you're using is doing those things.

992
00:52:30,698 --> 00:52:30,926
Is

993
00:52:30,926 --> 00:52:32,240
Catherine: that the thing
that makes you unique?

994
00:52:32,240 --> 00:52:33,099
I

995
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:33,680
Luke: think so.

996
00:52:33,750 --> 00:52:34,140
Yeah.

997
00:52:34,210 --> 00:52:35,475
Well, I don't think so.

998
00:52:35,485 --> 00:52:40,035
I, I know, I know that for a fact that
at that level, alkaline hydrolysis

999
00:52:40,035 --> 00:52:43,605
as a method of final disposition for
human beings in Australia has never

1000
00:52:43,605 --> 00:52:47,455
been offered in a place where both,
where all three of those things have

1001
00:52:47,455 --> 00:52:51,105
been satisfied and certainly not under
any existing legislation for sure.

1002
00:52:51,135 --> 00:52:54,855
But the water regulator is a big one
because the water regulator of those

1003
00:52:54,885 --> 00:52:59,515
parties is the one who fundamentally is
taking responsibility for public health

1004
00:52:59,515 --> 00:53:02,275
in that situation and for confirming.

1005
00:53:02,430 --> 00:53:06,540
and validating the claims that
are made by us at Alluvium as

1006
00:53:06,540 --> 00:53:08,190
operators of a water crematorium,

1007
00:53:08,220 --> 00:53:08,480
Catherine: yeah,

1008
00:53:08,530 --> 00:53:12,100
Luke: would not be able to get regulator
approval from TASWater, for instance,

1009
00:53:12,150 --> 00:53:16,350
unless they were satisfied that what
we were producing was safe and was

1010
00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:21,880
non toxic and was not classified
as biohazardous or medical waste.

1011
00:53:21,890 --> 00:53:25,010
So that was, again, an
enormous undertaking to take

1012
00:53:25,010 --> 00:53:25,939
them through all of that.

1013
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:29,140
that and help them understand that
and then provide them with all of

1014
00:53:29,150 --> 00:53:32,180
the information and verifications
that they needed to be able

1015
00:53:32,180 --> 00:53:33,340
to be comfortable with that.

1016
00:53:33,380 --> 00:53:36,080
And when I say an enormous process,
not because they were in any way

1017
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:40,020
uncomfortable with it, but just
because it's important for those things

1018
00:53:40,020 --> 00:53:42,010
to be clear and to be established.

1019
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,840
And so whilst it was extraordinarily
challenging to work through, just in terms

1020
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,610
of time and the various pressures that
were, you know, Going on at that, during

1021
00:53:49,610 --> 00:53:52,880
that process for us, it is something
that we're really, really proud of and

1022
00:53:52,900 --> 00:53:56,350
we hope can give families confidence
that when they're reaching out to us,

1023
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,400
they are reaching out to someone who
has certainly left no stone unturned in

1024
00:54:00,420 --> 00:54:04,030
ensuring that, yeah, their loved ones are
taken care of in the way that they expect.

1025
00:54:04,250 --> 00:54:07,860
Catherine: It must also provide that
foundation that you really have all

1026
00:54:07,860 --> 00:54:12,960
the checks and balances in place that
you are the true stewards for the

1027
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,024
environment that you had hoped to do.

1028
00:54:15,285 --> 00:54:16,395
Luke: Absolutely, 100%.

1029
00:54:16,535 --> 00:54:20,935
Yeah, you know, if you spend any time,
and you clearly have, but for anyone

1030
00:54:20,935 --> 00:54:24,545
else, like if you spend any time on our
website or on any of the stuff that we

1031
00:54:24,545 --> 00:54:27,925
have online, you'll see that the things,
I think the three things that are the

1032
00:54:27,925 --> 00:54:32,285
most important to us are around dignity
for families, and that comes down to

1033
00:54:32,305 --> 00:54:36,565
dignity is more than just the method of
final disposition, dignity is around being

1034
00:54:36,645 --> 00:54:39,915
able to have choice and being able to
be confident and informed in what those

1035
00:54:39,915 --> 00:54:42,765
choices are, that forms part of that
thing for us, but also responsibility.

1036
00:54:42,765 --> 00:54:42,775
Absolutely.

1037
00:54:42,775 --> 00:54:42,784
Absolutely.

1038
00:54:43,065 --> 00:54:46,795
Sustainability clearly, but transparency
is the last one, which is being able

1039
00:54:46,795 --> 00:54:49,975
to be confident that we have receipts
or the claims that we're making.

1040
00:54:50,005 --> 00:54:55,075
And there's nothing about our process or
about who we are or about facilities or

1041
00:54:55,105 --> 00:54:58,945
anything of that nature that people aren't
able to access if they would like to.

1042
00:54:59,375 --> 00:55:02,345
Catherine: And just can you tell
me, we've got three comparisons now,

1043
00:55:02,535 --> 00:55:06,595
obviously, that I suppose are the
mainstream or could be, you know,

1044
00:55:06,735 --> 00:55:08,855
mainstream options within Australia.

1045
00:55:08,975 --> 00:55:11,985
You've got burial, flame
cremation, water cremation.

1046
00:55:12,055 --> 00:55:15,345
We've got a few outliners, or
outliers I should say, but let's

1047
00:55:15,345 --> 00:55:16,445
just stick with these three.

1048
00:55:16,615 --> 00:55:17,825
What is the difference?

1049
00:55:17,905 --> 00:55:22,475
Why would someone choose water cremation
in comparison to the other two?

1050
00:55:22,870 --> 00:55:26,880
Luke: I think the answer to that surprises
me as well because it's not the answer

1051
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,780
I expected when we, you know, when
Brendan and I were looking at this.

1052
00:55:29,810 --> 00:55:33,580
We spent a lot of time talking about
the environmental impact of water

1053
00:55:33,620 --> 00:55:38,490
cremation and that being certainly a big
part of the driver for us in offering

1054
00:55:38,490 --> 00:55:41,580
that and anticipating that that would
be a driver for families as well.

1055
00:55:41,620 --> 00:55:47,185
It turns out we are finding increasingly
that the driver is Is more to do with

1056
00:55:47,185 --> 00:55:50,915
the process itself than it is to do
with the ecological benefits of it.

1057
00:55:50,915 --> 00:55:54,215
And the word that comes up for people
all of the time, which is someone

1058
00:55:54,215 --> 00:55:58,775
who's worked in the despots for a long
time is surprising to me, is gentle.

1059
00:55:58,825 --> 00:56:01,355
That's a word that comes to
mind for a lot of people.

1060
00:56:01,495 --> 00:56:05,905
And when I say that, I say that with a
caveat because in just the same way that

1061
00:56:05,905 --> 00:56:10,175
families have a response around feeling
that the process represents something

1062
00:56:10,175 --> 00:56:14,605
that is gentle for their loved one, you've
got another subsection of the community.

1063
00:56:14,810 --> 00:56:18,160
Who couldn't think of anything that
they would want to do less, like really

1064
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:23,520
strong, you know, dichotomous response
to it, which, to be honest, is probably

1065
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:27,230
just the case across death, full stop,
which is that people just have, when

1066
00:56:27,230 --> 00:56:30,520
confronted with it, have really strong
feelings, often one way or the other.

1067
00:56:30,715 --> 00:56:35,005
on something and having only had two
significant options in the living memory

1068
00:56:35,005 --> 00:56:38,525
of anyone in Australia that's just
been assumed that it's dichotomous that

1069
00:56:38,525 --> 00:56:41,555
like you are either a burial person
or a cremation person and we all know

1070
00:56:41,565 --> 00:56:42,875
that they're the only two options.

1071
00:56:43,265 --> 00:56:47,230
The interesting thing for me is watching
a third option that's Related to one

1072
00:56:47,230 --> 00:56:51,200
of those two, but I think does stand
on its own and seeing that same split.

1073
00:56:51,260 --> 00:56:54,750
And so then you realize, okay, the splits
around just people's feelings around

1074
00:56:54,750 --> 00:56:59,480
death and bodies and how I feel about any
process represents to me, irrespective

1075
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,070
of, you know, what we're talking about.

1076
00:57:01,070 --> 00:57:01,770
So that's really interesting.

1077
00:57:01,940 --> 00:57:04,720
The fact that it's, people see it
and I was about to say, see it,

1078
00:57:04,750 --> 00:57:06,290
it is a surprising term to me.

1079
00:57:06,455 --> 00:57:09,985
But I think recognize it as gentle and
there's a, I guess I'm pretty, I can be a

1080
00:57:09,985 --> 00:57:13,785
bit data driven and a bit straightforward
about things when I'm thinking through

1081
00:57:13,785 --> 00:57:16,795
this stuff and I go like, Oh, does
gentle really match up with this here?

1082
00:57:16,865 --> 00:57:19,565
And you know, how comfortable am
I using the word gentle and being

1083
00:57:19,595 --> 00:57:21,235
confident that I'm being honest in that?

1084
00:57:21,295 --> 00:57:22,555
And I think that it is.

1085
00:57:22,595 --> 00:57:25,615
And some of the things that you can
point to, to demonstrate that are

1086
00:57:25,635 --> 00:57:30,575
things like the fact that we do get
more remains out of a water cremation

1087
00:57:30,685 --> 00:57:32,035
than we do from a flame cremation.

1088
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:36,790
Often 20 or 30 percent more, and that's
20 or 30 percent more of the person

1089
00:57:36,830 --> 00:57:38,250
that you loved being returned to you.

1090
00:57:38,290 --> 00:57:40,220
Now that is a big thing for some people.

1091
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:42,950
For lots of people, you know, maybe that
doesn't make any difference whatsoever.

1092
00:57:43,030 --> 00:57:47,130
But the nature of the process
is slow and in comparison to

1093
00:57:47,130 --> 00:57:51,150
flame cremation, you know, it is
gentle, I guess, on the remains.

1094
00:57:51,450 --> 00:57:56,030
Because the reason you get 20 percent
less out of a flame cremation is because

1095
00:57:56,050 --> 00:57:59,930
of the introduction of an environment of
heat at that temperature just flat out

1096
00:57:59,930 --> 00:58:04,885
vaporizes more of those remains into non
existence than a water cremation will.

1097
00:58:04,885 --> 00:58:08,080
Catherine: And it's interesting
that people find it more gentle.

1098
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:12,000
And the imagery, when you were
talking about it earlier, Luke, was

1099
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:14,540
the importance of the flow of water.

1100
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:20,390
And what it reminds me of is how
even rock over a period of time in

1101
00:58:20,390 --> 00:58:24,590
a riverbed is always actually slowly
eroded away by that force of water.

1102
00:58:24,820 --> 00:58:27,680
That's what comes to my mind
when you spoke about that.

1103
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:30,860
So I can see how I feel with that imagery.

1104
00:58:30,900 --> 00:58:34,010
It does give me a sense
of more gentle process.

1105
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:35,410
and flowing water.

1106
00:58:35,620 --> 00:58:36,760
So I can see why.

1107
00:58:36,900 --> 00:58:40,070
Luke: And one of the funniest things
about that, just in terms of like real

1108
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:43,460
like specific stuff about Brendan and
I at Alluvium, which is that the first

1109
00:58:43,470 --> 00:58:47,840
process that we completed, first person
that accessed water cremation in Tasmania

1110
00:58:47,870 --> 00:58:50,680
and Australia, frankly, depending on
how you want to think about that, were,

1111
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:54,990
you know, we closed the door on the unit
and then, Press the start button and the

1112
00:58:55,050 --> 00:58:58,030
first thing we heard and both of us just
like stopped and looked at one another

1113
00:58:58,060 --> 00:59:00,690
when it happened was kind of cool, but
it sounded like a trickling stream.

1114
00:59:00,710 --> 00:59:03,370
It was the most unreal sound and
it's not, I would argue it's not

1115
00:59:03,370 --> 00:59:04,650
been designed to sound like that.

1116
00:59:04,660 --> 00:59:08,430
That's just the nature of how that
machine feels water, but it was

1117
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:11,620
a really oddly beautiful moment
where I was like, Oh, like that.

1118
00:59:11,935 --> 00:59:15,535
Yeah, this matches with a lot
of what a family would think

1119
00:59:15,535 --> 00:59:16,555
about this, actually, I think.

1120
00:59:17,095 --> 00:59:21,225
Catherine: So therefore, this leads to
my next question about certain cultural

1121
00:59:21,275 --> 00:59:27,445
and religious organizations or groups
have an affinity with water and the

1122
00:59:27,475 --> 00:59:30,345
role of water plays in ritual and death.

1123
00:59:30,675 --> 00:59:34,705
Do you see perhaps those people being
more interested in water cremation?

1124
00:59:34,705 --> 00:59:34,885
If

1125
00:59:34,885 --> 00:59:37,955
Luke: I'm really honest with
you, this is a question I'm not.

1126
00:59:38,250 --> 00:59:40,040
As well prepared on as I
probably should have been.

1127
00:59:40,090 --> 00:59:43,750
What I can tell you from just straight
out from practice and from talking with

1128
00:59:43,750 --> 00:59:48,060
people is that I have come across less
people that have a specific cultural or

1129
00:59:48,060 --> 00:59:52,490
religious affinity with water that are
interested than I have of people with

1130
00:59:52,490 --> 00:59:56,275
specific associations with flame that are
not interested, which makes sense to me.

1131
00:59:56,325 --> 00:59:57,675
Or burial that are not interested.

1132
00:59:57,725 --> 00:59:58,025
Yeah.

1133
00:59:58,025 --> 01:00:00,325
So it's not the greatest answer
for that question for you.

1134
01:00:00,335 --> 01:00:04,245
I'm really sorry, but there are certain
religious and cultural places where,

1135
01:00:04,335 --> 01:00:06,155
where it is just burial is the option.

1136
01:00:06,495 --> 01:00:07,185
That's what you do.

1137
01:00:07,695 --> 01:00:11,265
And others where flame is just
the option and that's all that is

1138
01:00:11,265 --> 01:00:12,745
available and all that is okay.

1139
01:00:12,795 --> 01:00:15,935
All of those people feel comfortable with
probably the Catholic church and water

1140
01:00:15,935 --> 01:00:17,655
cremation is a really interesting one.

1141
01:00:17,675 --> 01:00:21,075
Apart from that, I don't have as
much to come back for on that one.

1142
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:25,160
Catherine: Well, maybe can you come
back, you know, this time next year

1143
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:28,240
and we can see where things are at,
because, you know, I asked you to

1144
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:34,230
come on six weeks in, so I'd be really
fascinated to see, you know, what sort

1145
01:00:34,230 --> 01:00:39,440
of trends you find and, you know, what
are your, Aspirations for the future.

1146
01:00:39,710 --> 01:00:41,330
What are you and Brendan looking at doing?

1147
01:00:41,830 --> 01:00:45,580
Luke: Well, you are right that
you've got us about six weeks in.

1148
01:00:45,610 --> 01:00:48,700
So I think even the notion of
thinking about the future is,

1149
01:00:49,550 --> 01:00:50,740
Catherine: Sorry, it's too early.

1150
01:00:51,290 --> 01:00:52,250
Luke: No, no, no, no.

1151
01:00:52,250 --> 01:00:54,270
It's, yeah, I would put it this way.

1152
01:00:54,320 --> 01:01:00,380
We have been very, Encouraged by
the immediate and initial uptake of

1153
01:01:00,380 --> 01:01:03,590
families and trusting their loved
ones to us, which has been absolutely

1154
01:01:03,590 --> 01:01:05,930
beautiful and honestly a privilege.

1155
01:01:06,100 --> 01:01:09,590
And there have been parts of that process
that Brendan and I have been involved

1156
01:01:09,590 --> 01:01:14,330
with that have caught us by surprise of
some of the beautiful things that we get

1157
01:01:14,330 --> 01:01:18,480
to be a part of that we probably hadn't
really thought about that much because.

1158
01:01:18,915 --> 01:01:22,285
We are essentially a direct cremation,
well not essentially, we just

1159
01:01:22,355 --> 01:01:23,935
are a direct cremation service.

1160
01:01:24,075 --> 01:01:27,535
We're not doing those memorials and
funerals and those things where you get

1161
01:01:27,535 --> 01:01:32,625
to spend a lot of time with families and
hear from and find out about their worlds.

1162
01:01:33,145 --> 01:01:37,435
One of the things I'm really excited
about is the idea that, and this comes

1163
01:01:37,435 --> 01:01:42,295
from experience in the death space,
full stop, is that even for a direct

1164
01:01:42,295 --> 01:01:46,825
cremation, for those families who just
make a call and go, I would like you

1165
01:01:46,825 --> 01:01:50,585
to take care of my nan, and then just
return me the ashes, that's all I need.

1166
01:01:50,735 --> 01:01:55,105
What excites me is I know how much
more beautiful that process can be.

1167
01:01:55,645 --> 01:02:00,835
For that family and is often available
in the space at the moment that doesn't

1168
01:02:00,845 --> 01:02:08,025
have to be an embarrassing or viewed as
a budget or uncaring option for a family

1169
01:02:08,055 --> 01:02:12,435
there is so much that can be built into
that and done for those families in those

1170
01:02:12,435 --> 01:02:16,965
moments that I would like to say so when
I think about the future and I have spent

1171
01:02:16,965 --> 01:02:19,345
a lot of time talking about the fact that.

1172
01:02:19,665 --> 01:02:23,205
What we would love to see is for this
to be something that a family can be

1173
01:02:23,205 --> 01:02:25,075
really proud to do for their loved one.

1174
01:02:25,285 --> 01:02:29,505
Not just accessing water, but even
just the process of being proud of

1175
01:02:29,555 --> 01:02:34,510
doing just a direct cremation and then
choosing to celebrate or memorialize

1176
01:02:34,510 --> 01:02:36,250
in a way that means something to them.

1177
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:39,700
So yeah, that's one of the things that
I think is exciting about the future.

1178
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:44,730
I think there's a lot of interest
interstate in accessing what

1179
01:02:44,730 --> 01:02:45,610
we're offering at Alluvium.

1180
01:02:45,650 --> 01:02:48,645
Yeah, Brendan and I spent A bit of
time over the last couple of weeks.

1181
01:02:48,785 --> 01:02:50,735
Like I said, probably in
a way that surprises me.

1182
01:02:50,885 --> 01:02:53,105
Just trying to think through
what that could look like.

1183
01:02:53,155 --> 01:02:55,985
So that's why sort of answering
that question earlier too,

1184
01:02:56,025 --> 01:02:56,955
was coming from that place.

1185
01:02:57,025 --> 01:02:59,915
I was going, right, I've actually spent
quite a bit of time in this at the moment,

1186
01:02:59,925 --> 01:03:03,445
trying to figure out a solution for those
families who do want to access that.

1187
01:03:03,475 --> 01:03:04,735
And yeah, watch this space.

1188
01:03:04,845 --> 01:03:07,905
I think we've got, we do have some
things I think will be accessible.

1189
01:03:07,995 --> 01:03:08,875
They're not finalized yet.

1190
01:03:09,315 --> 01:03:10,205
So we'll find out.

1191
01:03:10,595 --> 01:03:14,685
Catherine: So it sounds like you and
Brendan are very much open to having

1192
01:03:14,945 --> 01:03:19,265
conversations with families and discussing
with them what they have in mind.

1193
01:03:19,925 --> 01:03:20,455
Luke: Absolutely.

1194
01:03:20,635 --> 01:03:21,125
A hundred percent.

1195
01:03:21,325 --> 01:03:24,105
And I think that's a really important,
like, it's quite funny because I

1196
01:03:24,105 --> 01:03:26,975
think you sent me a few questions
that you had for me and some of those

1197
01:03:26,975 --> 01:03:30,065
have been taken, I guess, from the
FAQs that we had on our website.

1198
01:03:30,375 --> 01:03:33,185
The actual questions that have been
asked of us over and over again are

1199
01:03:33,185 --> 01:03:34,875
questions that have surprised us.

1200
01:03:34,955 --> 01:03:37,355
You know, who would have
thought having spent my entire

1201
01:03:37,355 --> 01:03:38,495
career working with people.

1202
01:03:38,710 --> 01:03:42,180
Like that people would surprise
you by being different to

1203
01:03:42,210 --> 01:03:43,370
how you expected them to be.

1204
01:03:43,470 --> 01:03:46,640
But I think the kinds of questions they
have, and one of the ones that came up

1205
01:03:46,650 --> 01:03:49,640
that I think is really important for
people to understand and was important

1206
01:03:49,660 --> 01:03:52,790
for Brendan and I when we were setting
this up, we are able to offer sort

1207
01:03:52,790 --> 01:03:54,910
of an end to end service for people.

1208
01:03:54,950 --> 01:03:58,020
When they book something with
us, that conversation can start.

1209
01:03:58,090 --> 01:04:00,810
We're not doing prepaid stuff
presently, but that conversation

1210
01:04:00,810 --> 01:04:02,750
can start pre need for a family.

1211
01:04:02,780 --> 01:04:04,430
And then we have had several of those.

1212
01:04:04,685 --> 01:04:08,945
Happened recently and we can be the first
phone call that is made and we can take

1213
01:04:08,945 --> 01:04:12,535
care of every piece of that process all
The way up until return of ashes and a

1214
01:04:12,535 --> 01:04:16,535
few things beyond that as well Actually
that you know families will benefit from

1215
01:04:16,575 --> 01:04:19,515
not quite talking about yet But I think
yeah, it will be really beautiful, but

1216
01:04:19,575 --> 01:04:22,695
often people think okay I want a water
cremation But I need to call the funeral

1217
01:04:22,695 --> 01:04:25,795
home and then tell them that I need a
water cremation and you can absolutely do

1218
01:04:25,795 --> 01:04:27,540
that We have worked with people on that.

1219
01:04:27,610 --> 01:04:32,150
If it is just that service that you
want, we can do that thing end to end.

1220
01:04:32,260 --> 01:04:36,280
If it is something around the funeral
or memorialization, we can tap in

1221
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:38,060
and out of any part of that process.

1222
01:04:38,070 --> 01:04:41,150
If you would like someone, you know,
and there are some absolutely stunning

1223
01:04:41,180 --> 01:04:42,850
independent funeral directors down here.

1224
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:45,600
And there is a couple of places
at the sort of bigger and more

1225
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:47,110
well established funeral homes.

1226
01:04:47,110 --> 01:04:49,980
There's a couple out of them that are
just some of the most beautiful people.

1227
01:04:50,295 --> 01:04:52,475
Like, they are there to
help you and to support you.

1228
01:04:52,545 --> 01:04:54,855
You can contact any of those
people and we'll work with them.

1229
01:04:55,005 --> 01:04:56,055
That's absolutely fine.

1230
01:04:56,115 --> 01:04:57,935
And we can tap in and out of that process.

1231
01:04:57,935 --> 01:05:01,175
If you go, well, I want, you know, I
feel more comfortable with Luke and

1232
01:05:01,175 --> 01:05:05,725
Brendan picking up and taking care
of my loved one until the funeral.

1233
01:05:05,765 --> 01:05:08,215
And then I want the funeral home
to pick them up and do a funeral.

1234
01:05:08,215 --> 01:05:09,915
And then I want them going
back to Luke and Brendan.

1235
01:05:09,915 --> 01:05:11,045
And then I want an auto cremation.

1236
01:05:11,055 --> 01:05:11,695
We can do that.

1237
01:05:11,810 --> 01:05:14,160
Or I want the funeral home to pick
them up and do everything all the way

1238
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:15,680
up until they need to be promoted.

1239
01:05:15,750 --> 01:05:17,350
And then I'll get Luke and
Brandon to go pick them up.

1240
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:20,910
Like at any part you can sort of switch
and take out or put in, depending on

1241
01:05:20,910 --> 01:05:22,190
what you're comfortable with as a family.

1242
01:05:22,370 --> 01:05:25,730
Catherine: Well, that sounds like a
wonderful option that you're willing to

1243
01:05:25,730 --> 01:05:30,030
evolve and work with, you know, whatever
the family's need for their loved ones.

1244
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:34,780
And so much for bringing
Alluvium to Australia.

1245
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:39,390
And I really hope to see it
spread throughout every state.

1246
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:44,845
Luke: That would be exciting, although
there's a part of me that Yes, imagines

1247
01:05:44,895 --> 01:05:46,385
what that process would be like and

1248
01:05:47,305 --> 01:05:49,815
Catherine: it's okay, you can,
you'll be able to delegate Luke.

1249
01:05:50,665 --> 01:05:51,095
Luke: Yeah.

1250
01:05:52,045 --> 01:05:55,155
Catherine: Well, thank you so much
for being with us and I can't wait

1251
01:05:55,485 --> 01:06:00,255
to speak to you this time next
year and see how things are going.

1252
01:06:00,580 --> 01:06:01,060
Luke: Amazing.

1253
01:06:01,230 --> 01:06:02,790
Yeah, thank you so much
for having me as well.

1254
01:06:02,790 --> 01:06:03,450
I really appreciate it.

1255
01:06:06,170 --> 01:06:09,590
Catherine: We hope you enjoyed today's
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1256
01:06:09,900 --> 01:06:11,470
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1257
01:06:12,420 --> 01:06:16,680
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1258
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:18,610
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1259
01:06:18,790 --> 01:06:21,180
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1260
01:06:21,330 --> 01:06:24,060
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1261
01:06:24,285 --> 01:06:28,425
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1262
01:06:28,425 --> 01:06:30,165
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1263
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1264
01:06:31,965 --> 01:06:32,955
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1265
01:06:32,955 --> 01:06:36,885
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1266
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