Death, DNA, and Family Secrets: How Trauma Lives in Our Genes
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About this episode
What if the unexplained feelings of grief, anxiety, or disconnection you carry aren't entirely your own? In this compelling episode, I sit down with Michelle Scheibner, author of 'Hush', to explore how the secrets and trauma of our family history can echo through generations, impacting our lives in ways we never imagined.
Michelle's journey of discovery began when she found an old leather suitcase filled with documents after her mother's death. These papers revealed her father's hidden Jewish heritage and his harrowing escape from Nazi Germany - a history that had been carefully concealed throughout her life. Through her work in epigenetics and inherited family trauma, Michelle explains how traumatic experiences can actually modify our DNA, affecting future generations. Her research, backed by groundbreaking studies from Dr Rachel Yehuda at Mount Sinai School, demonstrates how children of Holocaust survivors and mothers present at Ground Zero show identical anxiety markers and cortisol levels as their traumatised parents.
As an adult orphan who lost both parents and later her significant other, Chris, to cancer, Michelle's personal story illustrates how unresolved family trauma can manifest in our lives. Through narrative therapy and deep personal work, she transformed her understanding of grief and identity, moving from a place of blame to one of appreciation for the resilience she inherited from her parents. Her journey offers hope and practical guidance for anyone seeking to understand their own unexplained feelings or recurring patterns.
Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine
Show notes
Guest Bio
Director of Personal Identity Activation at Michellescheibner.com
Michelle’s career spans over 25 years, with a diverse background that includes 15 years in secondary education, followed by four years at AMEX HQ in England, where she gained significant business experience across the UK, Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. She has held leadership roles in education, consulting, and business development, before transitioning into executive leadership coaching, mentoring C-suite executives and high-potential leaders across various sectors. Her professional journey is marked by a deep commitment to understanding how family secrets, intergenerational trauma, and genetics influence personal identity and life choices, which has led to her recent research exploring how we are shaped by our family’s genetic blueprint.
In addition to her extensive leadership experience, Michelle has spent the last four years investigating the intersection of history, culture, beliefs, and genetics, particularly how these factors shape true identity. Her work culminates in her memoir Hush, set to be published on Mother’s Day 2024, and her 2022 TEDx talk, Do We Need an Acceptable Identity Label to Be Validated? Michelle is also a member of the Expert Author Community and mentors others to articulate their ideas through meaningful storytelling and publish books that enhance their business ecosystems. Her qualifications include a Post Graduate Diploma in Career Development, certifications in leadership coaching, narrative coaching, and inherited family trauma, among others.
Summary
Key Insights:
- The science of epigenetics reveals how trauma can be passed down through generations via our DNA
- Unresolved family secrets and trauma can manifest as unexplained feelings of grief, anxiety, or disconnection
- Our relationship with our mother/primary caregiver from birth to age seven creates the blueprint for all future relationships
- Healing begins when we let go of the stories we've been telling ourselves and embrace our true narrative
Transcript
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Michelle: When you're not seen through
your mother's eyes, the love of the
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mother, and you grow up with these kind of
Swiss cheese like holes in your emotional
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core, when someone else comes into your
life and sees you, you kind of go, whoa.
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Okay, that person sees me, and
you're so enamored with that, that
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Michelle: When you're not seen through
your mother's eyes, the love of the
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00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:11,610
mother, and you grow up with these kind of
Swiss cheese like holes in your emotional
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core, when someone else comes into your
life and sees you, you kind of go, whoa.
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Okay, that person sees me, and
you're so enamored with that, that
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you don't necessarily make the right
decisions and make the right judgment
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call as to whether you're being
seen for the right reasons or not.
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Catherine: Welcome to Don't Be
Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging
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open conversations about dying
and the death of a loved one.
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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to
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bring your stories of death back to life.
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Because all of us.
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While you may not be ready to
die, at least you can be prepared.
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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations
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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.
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We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging and extend
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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First
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Nation peoples around the globe.
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Today we have Michelle Scheibner.
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Michelle is an author, a TEDx and
keynote speaker, activator, and she's
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a woman that enriches the conversations
you have with yourself to raise your
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brand voice, lift your visibility
and meet your unique identity.
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Overlapping postgraduate qualifications
in career development, social branding,
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and image management with her study
of narrative coaching, conversational
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IQ, and inherited family trauma gives
Michelle a distinctive lens to her work.
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Well, I've also had the wonderful
opportunity to meet Michelle
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outside of the podcast and it
was at a networking breakfast
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here on the Mornington Peninsula.
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And I have read Michelle's book
called Hush, so you can see that here,
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those of you watching on YouTube.
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But now Michelle, this is
quite the interesting book.
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Thank you for joining us today.
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Thank you for having me.
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What motivated you to write Hush?
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Michelle: Whoa, where do I start?
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I think it was several things
kind of coalesced, you know,
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came together at a, at a time.
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It was lockdown.
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It was the start of embellishment,
the strong lockdown.
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And I was concerned that
my coaching practice wasn't
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perhaps not going to recover.
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And I needed to do something to have
ready for when we came out the other end.
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And I started.
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considering a number of things
and was drawn to a thought leaders
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group where many of those folks
had written books and as part of
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the ecosystem of their business.
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You know, it may be that it's a calling
card, it might be codifying some
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of their IP, whatever the case was.
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And I was very keen to.
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educate my clients and my networks
about what I'd been learning and what
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I'd been researching about identity.
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And so Hush wasn't the first manuscript.
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Hush in its current version, as you've
read, is manuscript number three.
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The other two didn't quite
pass, didn't pass go.
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They were completed, but they
didn't work especially well.
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Catherine: Well, that's very interesting.
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That's very honest of you.
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I think a lot of writers don't actually
give us the indication of how many
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attempts have ended up in the bin before
the published manuscript has made it.
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So, so tell me, what were you
researching and discovering
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about this that led to the book?
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Michelle: As a personal brand strategist,
we're always reviewing and redefining.
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Who are we and, and what's our
distinction in the marketplace?
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How am I different to other
personal branding coaches,
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advisors, strategists, whatever?
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How am I different?
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And in the work I've been doing and the
stuff I've been uncovering, I've, you
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know, maybe it's something around my story
that makes my view a little bit different.
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And at that point, I didn't understand
fully the impact of inherited family
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trauma, but I had been working with.
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the lovely Sarah, the narrative
therapist that I'd met after I
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lost someone very close to me.
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And I was aware by then
of epigenetic impact.
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I was aware of genetic
imprinting in that way.
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I was aware that there may have been
something going on that had impacted
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my life choices and decisions.
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And when that penny finally dropped,
I just wanted to share the, my
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learnings with others, because it was
a way of thinking about my own stuff.
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that I hadn't considered before.
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The first time I went to a counselling
was when I was at university.
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That's how long I've been trying
to understand who I am and why my
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life has panned out the way it has,
which was not necessarily at all
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the way I had expected or planned.
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And there was a lot of shame
and regret around that.
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Catherine: Now I don't want
you to give too much away.
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I'll leave that to you about how much
you devolve and how much you keep secret.
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But, you know, you just said then that
the life that you live now was not the
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life that you expected to be leading.
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What were your expectations?
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And at what age were you when you,
you sort of had these expectations?
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Michelle: Look, I'm pretty sure going
through secondary school, Coming at
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the other end of that, I just expected
that at some point I would marry, have
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a family, continue with my career,
which my first career was teaching.
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And I think the first time I
went to a school reunion, It was
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like, I think, a 10 year reunion.
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Oh my goodness, and everybody was
there with either their engagement
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photos or their Wedding photos or
their baby photos and stories and and
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I was there with none of the above
Thinking well, I've failed here.
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I'm not good enough and I would look
around and go Okay, why don't why
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don't I why what's what's what's wrong
with me, but that just hasn't happened
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So, yeah, it was probably about then.
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It didn't stop me anticipating.
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It was just that that was the times
that I, I'm a little older than you,
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and that was how we grew up and how we
went from high school to university and
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establishing a career, fully expecting
that at some point in that career I
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would hit pause and have a family.
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And I didn't.
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Catherine: Yeah, and there's not that,
there's not that much difference really
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with the way in which I, I grew up also.
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Also share the same horror of having
a 10 year school reunion and don't
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want to do that ever, ever again.
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You know, because it, it does, I think
when you have a milestone like that, you
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do tend to, Do a lot of self analysis
about how far have I come, you know, you
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go back into this mindset of where you
were at that person in the schoolyard
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and, oh wow, it, you know, for me, I
didn't handle that very well at all.
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I ended up quite drunk, um, so,
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needless to say, I've done quite a
lot of work on myself since then.
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But, you know, it is a
really confronting thing.
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My husband loves school reunions,
but man, I don't know whether I'll
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ever go for another one again.
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I think I'm, I'm up for my
20th shortly and I don't know
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whether I'm ready for that.
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But it is a time where you do have
that self analysis about where your
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dreams and goals and where are you
now and you, you know, whether we,
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do it consciously or unconsciously.
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We do have biases and we do still
put people in our pigeon holes.
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And to look at someone like you, Michelle,
you look like a very confident woman.
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You look like you've got it all together.
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So there's no way that someone would
probably at the reunion think that
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you were feeling like that inside.
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Michelle: And I think that's part
of the story is in, in many ways,
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I was leading a double life.
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And by the way, I kind
of love reunions now.
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I'm going to one on the.
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In October, and I'm going to rock it.
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And, because I Okay, well,
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Catherine: maybe, maybe
I'll consider my 20th then.
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Well, I turn
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Michelle: up with a very different
I'm a different person now.
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And, you know, I just look
around and go, That's fine.
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But I've got a story too.
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I might not have your
story, but I have my story.
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And since Uh, Hush has been published
and I've been doing some live
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events and some podcasts and so on.
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I'm hearing thanks from people, you
know, I'm hearing from women who
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tell me, well, I see myself in you.
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Thank you for, for telling this
story because before that I didn't
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think anybody saw or heard me or
understood what it was like for me.
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Because I'm an only child as well.
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So, you know, there's not a lot
of busily little bees around
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the community and the network.
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I've got to create those.
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And so I, Yeah, I'm, I'm looking
forward to the next reunion, I
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have to say, but, but it's because
it's a different person showing up.
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But I think the irony is that I've created
an image professionally, I would say,
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Catherine: yeah,
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Michelle: and it wasn't inauthentic
because it was who I thought I, that's
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all I had was that part of my life.
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I was in the first certification
of an image management course
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ever run in Australia through
Image Group International.
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And In fact, I did it twice to
understand how we manage our
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physical image and our inner image.
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And my work became helping other
people to do that and to surface
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their brain qualities and to
have a story about their brand.
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And all the time, I didn't really know
mine because it had been kept secret,
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not because I hadn't faced it, but
because many elements were secret.
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So now that that's all, Revealed and
published for the world to see and I've
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put all the jigsaw pieces together.
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I now have a lot of confidence
in my self identity.
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And so I do show up differently.
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It kind of all probably matches more now.
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And that's what I want for other people.
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Catherine: And when you're, you're
sort of talking about the fact that
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you did that course or certification
twice in image, you know, you're Your
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mother, you reference her and how she
was very specific about appearance
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and how she wanted you to appear.
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Have you given thought to how that
impacted your focus on self image
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externally and how it's portrayed?
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Michelle: I
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Catherine: have.
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Michelle: She had a very natural elegance.
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And in fact, she was more of a
dress maker than I will ever be.
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I was more the design and the ideas,
and together we would, you know, I, I'd
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designed something and she'd make it,
and so I wanted to be a fashion designer.
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That's really what I wanted to do.
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But my parents had other ideas and the
school had other ideas, so I didn't, oh,
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I think I had a natural interest, I guess,
in style, external image in that respect.
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But at the same time, I've spent a lot
of, all my life, managing my weight.
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And now I understand what, what all that's
about, but nevertheless, I was an ugly
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duckling for a very, very long time.
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And I guess I looked at her and thought,
I want to be, I don't remember thinking
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it, but I probably learnt that from her.
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You know, get on the scales
every day, manage your weight.
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But I, you know, that's
just one of the layers now.
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It's all about what's
underneath the external.
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And that determines how we make choices
about how we show up, of course, as well.
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Catherine: Yeah, yeah.
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But it is interesting that that is
something that if you do see that
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behaviour when you're younger,
how at times in later life you
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can actually, therefore, start
mimicking that same behaviour.
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00:12:34,614 --> 00:12:35,525
Because it's natural.
201
00:12:35,724 --> 00:12:37,214
It's what you've seen and what you know.
202
00:12:37,324 --> 00:12:37,535
That's
203
00:12:37,535 --> 00:12:37,814
Michelle: exactly right.
204
00:12:38,675 --> 00:12:43,390
Catherine: So In your book, you
describe yourself as an adult orphan.
205
00:12:43,650 --> 00:12:45,800
You mentioned that you're an only child.
206
00:12:46,819 --> 00:12:50,640
Can you talk us through that
stage and how you were feeling and
207
00:12:50,990 --> 00:12:53,750
Michelle: Well, my father died in
my first year of work, my first
208
00:12:53,750 --> 00:12:57,739
year out of university, first year
in full time work, very suddenly.
209
00:12:58,260 --> 00:12:59,060
Way too young.
210
00:12:59,260 --> 00:13:02,480
And that sort of sent me down
a path that's, that wasn't fun.
211
00:13:02,510 --> 00:13:06,010
And my mother lived the
next 17 years on her own.
212
00:13:06,010 --> 00:13:07,390
Didn't date anybody.
213
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,390
Had a lot of friends, but, I had, no,
not a lot, but a small group of friends.
214
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,360
But when she passed
away, I really felt it.
215
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,260
I really felt the absence of family.
216
00:13:19,879 --> 00:13:27,039
And when I lost my mother,
things like Mother's Day became
217
00:13:27,819 --> 00:13:30,049
an absolute bane of my life.
218
00:13:30,829 --> 00:13:37,249
You know, the expectation from the
media, from the retail world, from
219
00:13:37,359 --> 00:13:40,420
everybody I came across, Oh, what
are you doing for Mother's Day?
220
00:13:40,420 --> 00:13:42,530
And, Oh, how was your Mother's Day?
221
00:13:43,089 --> 00:13:44,430
And I'd spend Mother's Day.
222
00:13:45,125 --> 00:13:47,725
Being a little neurotic and
not wanting to know about it.
223
00:13:48,374 --> 00:13:53,555
And that was because part of the, I had
not, I think the grief of being alone.
224
00:13:53,965 --> 00:13:58,854
Had I been a mother, it probably
would have been very different.
225
00:13:59,844 --> 00:14:01,844
But I'm like, well, what am
I doing for Mother's Day?
226
00:14:01,975 --> 00:14:03,295
Well, I'm not doing
anything for Mother's Day.
227
00:14:03,334 --> 00:14:03,964
I'm not a mother.
228
00:14:03,965 --> 00:14:04,765
I don't have a mother.
229
00:14:05,455 --> 00:14:07,035
And what can I say?
230
00:14:07,575 --> 00:14:13,235
I fully accept that I was a little
weird about it, but that was how I felt.
231
00:14:13,385 --> 00:14:14,784
I just, again, you know.
232
00:14:15,214 --> 00:14:20,055
It was that elongated, I don't, I really
don't fit with what's going on around me.
233
00:14:21,485 --> 00:14:25,395
And so if I say to somebody, well, I'm
not doing anything for Mother's Day.
234
00:14:25,454 --> 00:14:26,145
Oh, really?
235
00:14:26,754 --> 00:14:28,305
Does your mother live some interstate?
236
00:14:28,655 --> 00:14:29,534
Or are your kids?
237
00:14:31,454 --> 00:14:32,844
So I just, yeah.
238
00:14:34,334 --> 00:14:36,145
I found anything.
239
00:14:37,175 --> 00:14:39,395
related to families in that way.
240
00:14:39,395 --> 00:14:43,205
I can remember when a lot of my
friends were having their children.
241
00:14:43,215 --> 00:14:50,815
It was just easier for me to isolate
and withdraw from those situations.
242
00:14:52,385 --> 00:14:55,695
And in doing that, yeah, I did,
I felt like an adult orphan.
243
00:14:56,065 --> 00:15:02,115
Catherine: And it's interesting that,
you know, people just, again, it's that
244
00:15:02,115 --> 00:15:05,205
pigeonholing and that sort of projection.
245
00:15:05,730 --> 00:15:10,370
Oh, well, you know, what are you doing for
Mother's Day, just as a flyaway comment
246
00:15:10,829 --> 00:15:17,550
to sort of initiate a conversation without
really thinking that it can really impact
247
00:15:17,550 --> 00:15:19,280
on the people that they're talking with.
248
00:15:19,850 --> 00:15:22,899
Michelle: Likewise, yeah, I don't know
if you remember the story in the book
249
00:15:22,969 --> 00:15:29,794
of um, it was a client visit and I
was there to meet a potential coachee.
250
00:15:30,215 --> 00:15:31,705
A leadership program.
251
00:15:31,925 --> 00:15:34,555
One of the first questions she
asked me was, was I a mother?
252
00:15:36,015 --> 00:15:36,635
Seriously?
253
00:15:37,465 --> 00:15:44,125
A, that's a personal question, but B,
what does it have to do with your future
254
00:15:44,924 --> 00:15:46,775
leadership potential and development?
255
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:52,910
And so this whole mother child, mother
relationship, the role of mother
256
00:15:52,980 --> 00:15:55,349
in our lives, the loss of mother.
257
00:15:55,540 --> 00:15:56,610
Do we all love our mother?
258
00:15:56,649 --> 00:15:58,540
Like, there's so many questions.
259
00:15:58,860 --> 00:16:00,610
What did we learn from our mother?
260
00:16:00,899 --> 00:16:06,120
What do we blame our mothers
for, for the primary care person?
261
00:16:06,340 --> 00:16:08,060
And for mine, for me, it was mother.
262
00:16:08,620 --> 00:16:10,370
It was that whole mother relationship.
263
00:16:11,060 --> 00:16:14,590
And now, again, I have a different
understanding about that.
264
00:16:14,810 --> 00:16:17,530
Now I understand what, in
fact, had been going on for
265
00:16:17,530 --> 00:16:20,790
her, which I just had no clue.
266
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:26,075
In her lifetime, while my parents were
alive, I, I, I didn't know anything.
267
00:16:26,115 --> 00:16:30,575
I didn't know anything about their
lives before they met and got married.
268
00:16:30,815 --> 00:16:32,735
Catherine: And did they,
they not speak about it?
269
00:16:32,755 --> 00:16:33,705
Did they not share photos?
270
00:16:34,405 --> 00:16:35,535
Michelle: No, no photos.
271
00:16:36,395 --> 00:16:42,575
No, oh, you know, I can remember my
first date, or my first boyfriend,
272
00:16:42,575 --> 00:16:46,304
or my first girlfriend, or going
on a, no, nothing, nothing.
273
00:16:46,995 --> 00:16:51,175
I knew nothing about their lives,
well really before they had me,
274
00:16:51,225 --> 00:16:55,705
I mean obviously I knew, I saw
their wedding photos, but, and I
275
00:16:55,705 --> 00:17:01,105
knew my father had originated in
another country, but I didn't know
276
00:17:01,165 --> 00:17:04,484
how he got here, or when, or, no.
277
00:17:05,385 --> 00:17:07,165
It was all part of the secret.
278
00:17:07,435 --> 00:17:11,065
Catherine: And that's something that I
was talking to some people about today,
279
00:17:11,645 --> 00:17:17,855
is that it's a real shame that, you
know, it's not until people die and
280
00:17:17,855 --> 00:17:21,604
you may be sitting at their eulogy and
hearing, you know, or sitting at their
281
00:17:21,604 --> 00:17:24,735
funeral and hearing their eulogy and then
you go, Oh, I didn't know about that.
282
00:17:25,325 --> 00:17:27,015
Well, I didn't know about
that part of their life.
283
00:17:29,310 --> 00:17:35,400
It's a shame that we only find out those
amazing things that they have done,
284
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,090
or, and like I always feel like, oh,
I wish I'd known, I would have loved
285
00:17:39,100 --> 00:17:44,230
to have actually asked that question,
or found out more, or, or learnt
286
00:17:44,259 --> 00:17:44,759
Michelle: more.
287
00:17:45,029 --> 00:17:49,509
You know, I mean, we, we learn,
I, I'm pretty resilient, and I
288
00:17:49,509 --> 00:17:53,749
can certainly see it in my mother,
but I don't know how she did it.
289
00:17:54,459 --> 00:17:55,479
I'd love to have known.
290
00:17:56,089 --> 00:17:56,959
Well, I think grief.
291
00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:03,690
And, and Shane was in, in the end
was what killed her, but I would love
292
00:18:03,690 --> 00:18:07,290
to have had a conversation with her
about, well how do you, when you lose
293
00:18:07,299 --> 00:18:12,350
somebody, when somebody dies in your
arms, how do you get up and keep going?
294
00:18:13,350 --> 00:18:17,130
But I didn't ever have that opportunity
to talk to her about anything
295
00:18:17,130 --> 00:18:18,580
like that because she wouldn't.
296
00:18:19,260 --> 00:18:23,920
Catherine: And did she, was there
just a, a, a lack of intimacy
297
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,100
between the two of you or is
that just like, it just wouldn't?
298
00:18:27,630 --> 00:18:31,310
wouldn't open up those, those
sort of levels of conversation
299
00:18:31,310 --> 00:18:32,390
between the two of you.
300
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:34,140
We spoke
301
00:18:34,350 --> 00:18:43,160
Michelle: often and at length about
things and events and other people.
302
00:18:43,570 --> 00:18:47,729
We did not speak about
anything, again, below the line.
303
00:18:47,879 --> 00:18:49,589
We didn't speak about feelings.
304
00:18:49,629 --> 00:18:55,029
We didn't speak about ideas, unless
it was something to do with my work.
305
00:18:55,829 --> 00:18:56,629
She was very stoic.
306
00:18:57,365 --> 00:19:01,855
But what I know now is that there were
certain things that we had to steer away
307
00:19:01,855 --> 00:19:07,945
from because that would, I would ask
the questions and maybe I'd find out.
308
00:19:07,945 --> 00:19:12,445
So I learned very early on,
Catherine, that there were questions
309
00:19:12,525 --> 00:19:16,975
I couldn't answer because I simply
didn't get, I didn't get an answer.
310
00:19:17,265 --> 00:19:19,705
So I'd say, How about this?
311
00:19:20,905 --> 00:19:22,185
Shrug of the shoulders.
312
00:19:23,205 --> 00:19:23,995
Can't help you with that.
313
00:19:24,764 --> 00:19:31,605
So I was trained not to
keep being inquisitive.
314
00:19:32,985 --> 00:19:35,565
I mean, that's just what happened
because ultimately it doesn't
315
00:19:35,565 --> 00:19:37,205
matter what you think is going on.
316
00:19:37,205 --> 00:19:39,184
You still want to be
loyal to your parents.
317
00:19:40,054 --> 00:19:41,605
And we do it without really knowing.
318
00:19:41,615 --> 00:19:46,585
It doesn't matter how bad the situation
may be and we can look back as an
319
00:19:46,585 --> 00:19:51,284
evolved learned adult and say, well
really, gee, that wasn't too flash.
320
00:19:51,955 --> 00:19:57,715
But still, most people will still
have a loyalty to their parents,
321
00:19:57,745 --> 00:19:59,394
or to the folks who raised them.
322
00:20:00,294 --> 00:20:02,025
Because I wasn't in need of everything.
323
00:20:02,415 --> 00:20:05,795
You know, I had a roof over my
head, I went to a good school,
324
00:20:06,414 --> 00:20:09,250
I was Fed and taken on holidays.
325
00:20:09,470 --> 00:20:11,060
What's there not to like about that?
326
00:20:13,310 --> 00:20:15,050
Catherine: And also like you
don't know any different.
327
00:20:15,050 --> 00:20:16,010
I didn't know any different.
328
00:20:16,020 --> 00:20:18,509
Like, like you don't know
what you don't know, you know?
329
00:20:18,669 --> 00:20:19,650
So that's normal.
330
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,220
Like, that's just normal.
331
00:20:21,370 --> 00:20:21,899
But this is the
332
00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:22,220
Michelle: thing.
333
00:20:22,270 --> 00:20:24,019
I did not know any different.
334
00:20:24,770 --> 00:20:25,210
I didn't.
335
00:20:25,210 --> 00:20:26,030
Yeah, yeah.
336
00:20:26,030 --> 00:20:26,519
Catherine: I
337
00:20:26,519 --> 00:20:30,399
Michelle: didn't spend a lot of time
inside other people's families to
338
00:20:30,399 --> 00:20:37,120
see how Parents interact and siblings
interact, and I did, because I didn't
339
00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:42,360
have siblings, I didn't learn a lot of
those communication skills around, well,
340
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:44,480
how do I barter to get my toy back?
341
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:50,170
Or how do I, how do I argue to
get out of doing the dishes?
342
00:20:50,220 --> 00:20:52,560
Or, you know, like I just, a lot of that.
343
00:20:52,850 --> 00:20:58,990
Push and pull and conflict management
and collaboration that you'll learn
344
00:20:59,390 --> 00:21:01,459
within a normal regular family.
345
00:21:02,470 --> 00:21:03,670
It just wasn't going on.
346
00:21:04,069 --> 00:21:05,629
I spent a lot of time with adults.
347
00:21:06,250 --> 00:21:07,620
Most of my time with adults.
348
00:21:08,569 --> 00:21:10,500
So, I didn't learn.
349
00:21:10,850 --> 00:21:12,559
Catherine: So, Michelle, tell me.
350
00:21:13,740 --> 00:21:18,659
At what point did you uncover
your history, your, you
351
00:21:18,659 --> 00:21:20,899
know, your family origins?
352
00:21:20,909 --> 00:21:22,730
Are you comfortable sharing that?
353
00:21:23,290 --> 00:21:24,169
Michelle: Yeah, sure.
354
00:21:24,949 --> 00:21:30,780
I had, I mean it might sound like I
didn't have any, you know, collateral
355
00:21:30,810 --> 00:21:36,449
so to speak, but when my mother died
and I had to clear out her house, I
356
00:21:36,579 --> 00:21:39,939
found a very old leather suitcase.
357
00:21:41,205 --> 00:21:45,425
And inside, it was chock a
block with very old documents.
358
00:21:45,975 --> 00:21:52,565
And I just went, okay, that looks
important, but I cannot face it right now.
359
00:21:53,315 --> 00:21:57,364
But it was in my care for about 25 years.
360
00:21:57,445 --> 00:22:05,985
And when I started to read a little
bit about the impacts of inherited
361
00:22:05,985 --> 00:22:10,660
family trauma, I And was contemplating
a book, I figured, oh, I've got
362
00:22:10,660 --> 00:22:12,450
to do this detective work also.
363
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,260
So I had to get into the case.
364
00:22:15,549 --> 00:22:18,950
Well, Sarah really said to me,
I think you need to get into it.
365
00:22:19,100 --> 00:22:20,370
You need to see what's in there.
366
00:22:20,379 --> 00:22:22,310
You need to get some information.
367
00:22:22,510 --> 00:22:23,920
It was my father's history.
368
00:22:24,349 --> 00:22:27,440
In, most of those documents
were in old German.
369
00:22:27,630 --> 00:22:29,230
Some had been translated.
370
00:22:29,430 --> 00:22:32,860
Actually, I started doing
that before I did the training
371
00:22:33,020 --> 00:22:34,170
for Inherited Family Trauma.
372
00:22:34,580 --> 00:22:36,700
And I knew my father was German.
373
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:43,160
Shardner, you know, like, I knew, I
knew he was German, but in my, to my
374
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,060
ear, he didn't ever have an accent.
375
00:22:45,790 --> 00:22:48,040
So, I just figured he'd
been here a long time.
376
00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:52,890
I knew he had relatives
in Sydney, one cousin.
377
00:22:53,300 --> 00:22:55,620
I'd met her maybe, I
don't know, once or twice.
378
00:22:56,659 --> 00:22:59,120
But I didn't understand his background.
379
00:22:59,170 --> 00:23:01,310
I didn't ever know what
happened to his parents.
380
00:23:02,850 --> 00:23:07,820
Uh, so going through these documents,
I've, I've, I discovered that when
381
00:23:07,850 --> 00:23:13,850
he'd left Germany, and it was just
at the outbreak of the war, I read
382
00:23:13,850 --> 00:23:19,240
that he'd tried to get his parents
out here, and I, look, I had to
383
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,850
sneak up on this quite gently.
384
00:23:22,349 --> 00:23:25,889
I couldn't, I could not
manage it all at once.
385
00:23:26,990 --> 00:23:32,899
So it actually took me a few years
to really get it all pieced, it was
386
00:23:32,899 --> 00:23:34,870
actually like doing a jigsaw puzzle.
387
00:23:35,389 --> 00:23:40,840
And in there, you know, I found things
like my father's baptism as a Lutheran.
388
00:23:41,269 --> 00:23:45,249
I found his father's certificate
of baptism as a Lutheran.
389
00:23:47,220 --> 00:23:52,910
So I couldn't quite work out why
he had a Jewish cousin in Sydney.
390
00:23:52,910 --> 00:23:57,140
I couldn't quite, I just could not
work out what was going on here.
391
00:23:57,630 --> 00:24:02,420
Of course, now I understand
the Jewish people converting.
392
00:24:03,180 --> 00:24:08,730
To a Protestant religion has been
going on for centuries, not, not just
393
00:24:08,730 --> 00:24:15,120
in the twenties and thirties, as a
way of protecting themselves from
394
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:22,470
antisemitism and from from war, but I,
I did not understand it, and so I didn't
395
00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:25,320
think that any of that impacted me.
396
00:24:25,620 --> 00:24:27,965
I mean, I didn't think that
there was anything to see here.
397
00:24:29,830 --> 00:24:31,830
Now, of course, I look
at that very differently.
398
00:24:32,070 --> 00:24:36,750
And the more I got into the letters,
the more I understand that my father
399
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,959
had been arrested a number of times
as a teenager for being Jewish.
400
00:24:41,229 --> 00:24:45,225
His father, Well, as it turned
out, his parents were both
401
00:24:45,254 --> 00:24:46,538
victims of the Holocaust.
402
00:24:46,538 --> 00:24:49,625
But I didn't, I did not
grow up knowing that.
403
00:24:50,175 --> 00:24:53,605
I've only known that in the last,
I don't know, that many years.
404
00:24:54,065 --> 00:24:59,815
So I didn't, I knew that I didn't
know a lot about who I was, but I
405
00:24:59,824 --> 00:25:04,295
didn't have any clue that there was
a whole cultural heritage that I
406
00:25:04,325 --> 00:25:06,385
didn't know and I didn't understand.
407
00:25:06,935 --> 00:25:11,125
Ironically, we lived opposite an
Anglican Church in which my mother
408
00:25:11,135 --> 00:25:18,030
was the a very active parishioner,
Christian woman, and um, but I
409
00:25:18,030 --> 00:25:19,950
don't know how they made that work.
410
00:25:19,950 --> 00:25:20,899
I mean, I don't know.
411
00:25:21,809 --> 00:25:27,380
I now know that my father, even though
his family were outwardly living as
412
00:25:27,530 --> 00:25:34,159
Lutheran, were quietly behind closed
doors, still adhering to Jewish custom
413
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:40,490
and celebrating holidays and bar mitzvahs
and all the rest of it, but I didn't know.
414
00:25:41,195 --> 00:25:41,735
Any of that.
415
00:25:42,185 --> 00:25:48,595
Catherine: And yet, you had undertaken
study to understand intergenerational
416
00:25:48,595 --> 00:25:54,915
trauma and, and identity, and yet you
had no idea that this was in your own
417
00:25:54,944 --> 00:25:56,854
history at this point in time, did you?
418
00:25:56,925 --> 00:26:01,415
Michelle: Well, it was sort of happening,
one was making me do more of the other.
419
00:26:02,475 --> 00:26:03,935
It was like, like this.
420
00:26:03,935 --> 00:26:04,234
Yeah, right.
421
00:26:04,235 --> 00:26:06,895
Catherine: Yeah, so working in parallel.
422
00:26:07,095 --> 00:26:07,285
Working
423
00:26:07,285 --> 00:26:08,015
Michelle: in parallel.
424
00:26:08,055 --> 00:26:12,385
I did take a DNA test
before I started the study.
425
00:26:12,774 --> 00:26:14,705
I mean, I just had that in my back pocket.
426
00:26:14,774 --> 00:26:15,965
I mean, it's interesting, isn't it?
427
00:26:16,115 --> 00:26:18,725
Have you ever had, done
a DNA test with Ancestry.
428
00:26:18,945 --> 00:26:19,195
com?
429
00:26:19,195 --> 00:26:19,925
No.
430
00:26:19,925 --> 00:26:20,654
No,
431
00:26:20,655 --> 00:26:21,235
Catherine: I haven't.
432
00:26:21,264 --> 00:26:22,565
But I do know people that have.
433
00:26:23,004 --> 00:26:26,094
Michelle: So it's interesting, because
what you get back is some results
434
00:26:26,135 --> 00:26:28,715
that, that say, Oh, this percentage.
435
00:26:29,174 --> 00:26:33,974
I'll show you a map, and it could be
all the yellow, and it might be England,
436
00:26:34,104 --> 00:26:37,954
this and that, and they'll tell you
Danish, English, whatever, whatever.
437
00:26:39,284 --> 00:26:41,834
On the other hand, they said.
438
00:26:42,675 --> 00:26:47,495
So if you're Jewish, it says European
Jew, you know, it is actually
439
00:26:48,004 --> 00:26:50,225
a category because it just is.
440
00:26:51,304 --> 00:26:53,494
And it doesn't say half Christian.
441
00:26:54,095 --> 00:26:54,954
It says I'm none.
442
00:26:55,595 --> 00:26:58,195
You're 50 percent European Jew.
443
00:26:58,924 --> 00:27:03,264
So Again, it was like, oh, okay.
444
00:27:04,135 --> 00:27:04,564
Okay.
445
00:27:04,895 --> 00:27:09,374
Maybe that's why I've always
thought I want to go walk the World.
446
00:27:09,835 --> 00:27:15,115
The Sandy Roads of Jordan and Palestine
and you know, because I have it's always
447
00:27:15,215 --> 00:27:19,565
what I've wanted to do, but I didn't
Understand that there was something
448
00:27:19,565 --> 00:27:23,645
else Drawing me to that and you know
449
00:27:25,824 --> 00:27:31,254
What seems like a hundred years ago now
I was in a meditation group in fact,
450
00:27:31,584 --> 00:27:36,324
I was it was a spiritual healing and
meditation group and I was learning to
451
00:27:36,324 --> 00:27:42,944
be a spiritual healer and And A woman,
one of the other participants, during
452
00:27:42,944 --> 00:27:47,654
a meditation one night, when we finish,
she said, Oh my goodness, I had the most
453
00:27:47,704 --> 00:27:51,564
amazing vision of you in biblical times.
454
00:27:52,715 --> 00:27:56,944
You had a child in either arm and
one at your hips and one at your
455
00:27:56,944 --> 00:28:03,104
skirts and it was, this was you,
this was your role in biblical times.
456
00:28:03,104 --> 00:28:04,434
You were mother to many.
457
00:28:04,944 --> 00:28:05,234
I don't know.
458
00:28:05,664 --> 00:28:06,154
Okay.
459
00:28:06,980 --> 00:28:09,840
That doesn't surprise
me, I thought to myself.
460
00:28:11,535 --> 00:28:14,075
But now I kind of think about
that in a different way.
461
00:28:14,075 --> 00:28:18,045
I mean, I might sound a bit woo
woo, but that's, I really think that
462
00:28:18,045 --> 00:28:24,055
when something is on your DNA, when
it is in who you are, it just is.
463
00:28:24,484 --> 00:28:27,504
Catherine: Yes, and that leads
us to the very interesting
464
00:28:27,504 --> 00:28:29,135
conversation about epigenetics.
465
00:28:31,445 --> 00:28:31,595
Yes.
466
00:28:31,595 --> 00:28:36,745
So, Michelle, could you please
tell our audience what epigenetics
467
00:28:36,765 --> 00:28:39,395
means and what the study involves?
468
00:28:39,870 --> 00:28:42,740
Michelle: Well, I think we
start with the fact that we all
469
00:28:42,740 --> 00:28:46,070
know that we are born with DNA.
470
00:28:46,980 --> 00:28:53,560
DNA is like, you know, our fingerprints
and on it is characteristics such as
471
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,139
our eye color, our hair color, maybe
our shape, maybe whether or not we're
472
00:28:58,139 --> 00:29:03,990
left handed and it turns out Whether
or not we like coriander is one of the
473
00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:06,350
things that can be carried on our DNA.
474
00:29:07,169 --> 00:29:10,069
And we think that nothing impacts
that, that's what we're born with.
475
00:29:10,749 --> 00:29:15,829
This is the code, this genetic code
here from a shell shiner is this.
476
00:29:16,329 --> 00:29:22,750
But what we now know is that
external factors can influence
477
00:29:23,929 --> 00:29:26,310
the tags on our genetic code.
478
00:29:26,709 --> 00:29:33,290
And can determine how elements of that
are switched on and off, if you like.
479
00:29:34,550 --> 00:29:41,779
And so, for example, if a generation
has had to live through famine, so there
480
00:29:41,780 --> 00:29:46,800
are, there's research that shows us that
in the Netherlands, there was a famine.
481
00:29:47,459 --> 00:29:50,560
Can't remember the century, you know, I've
got it all here somewhere, but I've got so
482
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:51,810
much in my head I can't remember it all.
483
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:57,729
But what we see is that the children
and the grandchildren, born of parents
484
00:29:57,729 --> 00:30:03,640
who lived through extreme famine,
We'll then start to show particular
485
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:11,480
behaviors and biological makeup that
would be as if they were preparing
486
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,249
themselves to survive the famine.
487
00:30:13,700 --> 00:30:15,880
So the first research was done by Dr.
488
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,129
Rachel Yehuda from the Mount Sinai School.
489
00:30:19,130 --> 00:30:22,880
Everyone's probably heard of Mount
Sinai Medical School in the U.
490
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,070
S., New York.
491
00:30:24,750 --> 00:30:29,390
She did her first research with the
children of Holocaust survivors.
492
00:30:30,570 --> 00:30:35,589
She redid that research after 9
11 with the children who had been
493
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:41,879
born to mothers who were at ground
zero, who were pregnant at ground
494
00:30:41,879 --> 00:30:43,489
zero and went on to have children.
495
00:30:44,739 --> 00:30:52,630
And those children showed the same
markers for anxiety and levels of
496
00:30:52,650 --> 00:30:55,390
cortisone as the pregnant mother did.
497
00:30:55,750 --> 00:31:02,900
And so we can't say that
something that our parents or our
498
00:31:02,910 --> 00:31:07,540
grandparents experienced hasn't
been passed on in some way.
499
00:31:08,370 --> 00:31:13,770
Because now we're seeing that
epigenetically, it can be.
500
00:31:14,750 --> 00:31:19,120
Because if you think about it,
the egg that we developed from
501
00:31:19,270 --> 00:31:21,680
was already formed in our mother.
502
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,230
For anybody who's listening, if you
don't know who your birth mother was
503
00:31:26,230 --> 00:31:31,160
and there's, you know, if it was IVF,
this is fully taking into understanding
504
00:31:31,170 --> 00:31:35,010
that I'm talking about what we,
when we do know and what we do know.
505
00:31:36,730 --> 00:31:40,620
But the eggs are in the ovaries of the
mother, all the ones that they will have
506
00:31:40,690 --> 00:31:46,260
for their life were already formed, and
then when conception takes place, if
507
00:31:46,260 --> 00:31:52,419
the father has been exposed to trauma
right up to 24 hours before conception,
508
00:31:53,209 --> 00:31:58,540
then his sperm can be impacted by
the traumatic event that he may have.
509
00:31:59,345 --> 00:32:00,255
experience.
510
00:32:00,985 --> 00:32:05,995
So when those two things come together
and we have an embryo, but then there
511
00:32:05,995 --> 00:32:09,435
are a number of external things, some
of which have been carried forward
512
00:32:09,464 --> 00:32:13,785
from the previous generation, some
which could be like from yesterday,
513
00:32:13,904 --> 00:32:21,955
together impacting how the baby in vitro
is going to be impacted and develop.
514
00:32:22,245 --> 00:32:22,895
It's a science.
515
00:32:23,275 --> 00:32:24,459
I'm not a scientist.
516
00:32:24,900 --> 00:32:26,530
That's my best explanation.
517
00:32:27,630 --> 00:32:32,210
Catherine: And it was at this point
that my head exploded when I was reading
518
00:32:32,210 --> 00:32:35,259
Michelle's book and I promptly text her.
519
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:37,830
You did.
520
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,470
To say, oh my goodness,
we really have to talk.
521
00:32:44,470 --> 00:32:47,420
Michelle: So what, can I
ask you what it is for you?
522
00:32:47,540 --> 00:32:48,730
What prompted that?
523
00:32:49,390 --> 00:32:51,510
We need to talk query for you.
524
00:32:51,970 --> 00:32:57,340
Catherine: Well, It makes sense, you
know, because there was two things
525
00:32:57,340 --> 00:33:01,420
that happened in that week that I was
reading that, that section of your book.
526
00:33:01,810 --> 00:33:06,600
Firstly, I related to it immediately
because obviously I have had my own
527
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,910
experience of personal trauma as I've,
you know, you know, grown through life.
528
00:33:11,350 --> 00:33:16,630
But then I also have the genetics of the
fact that my father was an alcoholic.
529
00:33:16,630 --> 00:33:21,740
So I know that him being an
alcoholic, you have a predisposition
530
00:33:21,770 --> 00:33:25,320
to develop alcoholism or
some other form of addiction.
531
00:33:25,350 --> 00:33:28,120
So it's something that I'm
always very mindful of and
532
00:33:28,279 --> 00:33:30,009
haven't drunk for many years now.
533
00:33:30,079 --> 00:33:35,940
But so I'm like, well, this, you know,
is not much of a stretch, but at the
534
00:33:35,940 --> 00:33:43,640
same time, it's huge, like, because it,
it really forms the fact that, that what
535
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:48,889
we talk about is, you know, that passing
on of those traits, whether it be, you
536
00:33:48,890 --> 00:33:53,180
know, You know, the physical traits, we've
always known that, you know, you may look
537
00:33:53,180 --> 00:33:58,780
like your uncle or you may look like, you
know, someone in, in your family history.
538
00:33:58,780 --> 00:34:01,470
If you're lucky enough to have
those photos, you can go, Oh, gee,
539
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,880
that genetic trait is really clear.
540
00:34:04,150 --> 00:34:09,019
So it's, it's not surprising, but when
you think that it's something external,
541
00:34:09,099 --> 00:34:14,950
such as trauma and something that could
have actually done damage psychologically
542
00:34:15,260 --> 00:34:18,929
to someone, because we always view
it as something that maybe medically.
543
00:34:19,370 --> 00:34:22,930
would be the thing that had
changed, but viewing it as something
544
00:34:22,930 --> 00:34:27,630
as, as trauma, it just took it
to a whole other level for me.
545
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:34,059
And it really made me review, you
know, just that, that difficulty of
546
00:34:34,059 --> 00:34:37,480
generations past and what they've
had to struggle and go through, and
547
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:42,900
how that may have actually, you know,
Built resilience or you know, so it was
548
00:34:42,910 --> 00:34:44,860
really really quite fascinating for me.
549
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:46,790
And then how do I interpret that?
550
00:34:46,890 --> 00:34:52,530
Yeah, and the and the other thing
that was also really interesting is it
551
00:34:52,550 --> 00:34:58,020
was that week that they had announced
that Research that they were doing
552
00:34:58,020 --> 00:35:05,700
had analysed a particular strain of
DNA whereby the, you were saying how
553
00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:10,209
there was, there's code that could be
turned on or off and they discovered
554
00:35:10,209 --> 00:35:11,849
that there was this particular code.
555
00:35:12,370 --> 00:35:17,530
with autism that was found when
the mother was exposed to high
556
00:35:17,530 --> 00:35:20,870
levels of plastics while in utero.
557
00:35:21,140 --> 00:35:25,180
The child was in utero that they had a
higher possibility of developing autism.
558
00:35:25,569 --> 00:35:31,870
And I'm like, this is what Michelle's
talking about, you know, so it really.
559
00:35:32,035 --> 00:35:36,585
resonated in, in that, that
physical manifestation again.
560
00:35:36,675 --> 00:35:37,685
Uh, yeah, look,
561
00:35:38,425 --> 00:35:39,105
Michelle: fascinating.
562
00:35:39,275 --> 00:35:43,955
Yeah, I think from, I mean, there are a
lot of practitioners, health practitioners
563
00:35:43,955 --> 00:35:50,625
now who are using DNA testing to drive
natural therapies and the way they
564
00:35:50,625 --> 00:35:54,235
would treat a patient because there's,
there's no doubt there are certain
565
00:35:54,245 --> 00:35:56,265
predispositions that, that show up.
566
00:35:56,265 --> 00:36:02,830
And look, epigenetic changes The
problem is that it's, it's a change
567
00:36:02,860 --> 00:36:07,140
that prepares a child for a life
that the child's not going to live.
568
00:36:07,780 --> 00:36:10,660
Yeah, because we're not, we don't live
in, you know, we're not living in war.
569
00:36:10,910 --> 00:36:14,320
We're not living the same lives
that our parents or our grandparents
570
00:36:14,349 --> 00:36:15,980
or indeed our great grandparents.
571
00:36:17,099 --> 00:36:23,150
And so we don't need to be ready to cope
with a famine because we're probably most
572
00:36:23,150 --> 00:36:27,930
unlikely, in this environment, are we
going to need to, to deal with a famine.
573
00:36:27,950 --> 00:36:33,580
But then I think the other part of
this that has meaning for me is that
574
00:36:34,150 --> 00:36:38,930
if you look at conditions like Crohn's
disease, you know, you look at any
575
00:36:38,930 --> 00:36:45,530
condition to do with the gut, pretty
much you can trace that back ancestrally.
576
00:36:45,709 --> 00:36:49,650
Crohn's, for example, Irritable Bowel
Syndrome are things that are triggered
577
00:36:49,650 --> 00:36:57,209
by trauma, by stress, by anxiety, because
the gut is connected to our brain.
578
00:36:58,455 --> 00:37:01,245
If there's something that's going on
here, we're going to feel it in our
579
00:37:01,245 --> 00:37:06,085
gut, and, and in fact, the gut, gut
health is now often referred to, or the
580
00:37:06,085 --> 00:37:11,415
gut is often referred to as the other
brain, and, and so when we see that
581
00:37:11,494 --> 00:37:17,465
somebody is, so Chris, who I talk about
in the book, had Crohn's disease, and
582
00:37:17,705 --> 00:37:22,605
when I look at his background and the
trauma that he himself experienced.
583
00:37:23,205 --> 00:37:27,045
Not to mention the trauma that his
father and grandfather experienced.
584
00:37:27,455 --> 00:37:31,865
We can see that there has been
a repetition of a pattern of
585
00:37:31,865 --> 00:37:34,095
response to external events.
586
00:37:34,934 --> 00:37:39,594
It has us looking at our health, both our
physical health and our well being and
587
00:37:39,595 --> 00:37:42,564
emotional health, in a very different way.
588
00:37:42,824 --> 00:37:46,730
And I can see now, the
situation for my mother.
589
00:37:47,860 --> 00:37:53,230
I can also see how things that are
a little harder to define, such
590
00:37:53,230 --> 00:37:59,630
as grief, also can be passed on
between one generation and the next.
591
00:37:59,679 --> 00:38:04,270
So if I think about the grief that
I could not work my way through
592
00:38:04,270 --> 00:38:07,960
after I lost Chris, I'd lost
my mother, I'd lost my father.
593
00:38:08,310 --> 00:38:12,000
I had experienced the grief of
losing other people close to me.
594
00:38:12,655 --> 00:38:16,045
But this time I could
not get back on track.
595
00:38:17,075 --> 00:38:20,905
And when I said to
Sarah, I'm just, I'm sad.
596
00:38:20,905 --> 00:38:27,315
I'm, I'm just, I'm continuously
melancholy, colic, and I don't know
597
00:38:27,325 --> 00:38:35,085
why, but I feel like I'm grieving more
Then while I've lived and experienced
598
00:38:35,605 --> 00:38:40,485
and she was the person who said to
me There is a family history of grief
599
00:38:42,545 --> 00:38:47,244
your father your father's parents and
by the way This is not even touching
600
00:38:47,245 --> 00:38:54,565
on my mother's side Because there's
great deal so but it's systemic it
601
00:38:54,585 --> 00:39:01,435
gets passed on as well and so my
feeling of sadness since I was a child
602
00:39:01,925 --> 00:39:08,395
my feeling of of being alone and not
being connected and belonging anywhere.
603
00:39:08,730 --> 00:39:12,830
Had been with me since I was a child,
but there was no reason for it.
604
00:39:13,980 --> 00:39:15,660
I hadn't experienced trauma.
605
00:39:16,310 --> 00:39:18,890
I hadn't experienced grief as a child.
606
00:39:19,380 --> 00:39:23,660
I hadn't been beaten or isolated
because of, you know, I just, it
607
00:39:23,660 --> 00:39:25,439
was something that was born with me.
608
00:39:25,830 --> 00:39:29,100
Catherine: And there's two ways
that I'd like to go from here.
609
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,810
I think perhaps understanding your
mum and what you discovered and
610
00:39:34,810 --> 00:39:36,740
then moving maybe on to Chris.
611
00:39:36,780 --> 00:39:38,059
And I think it's important
612
00:39:38,070 --> 00:39:42,739
Michelle: because all of this work,
you know, when, when we do any of
613
00:39:42,739 --> 00:39:47,910
this work we always start with the
individual's relationship to their mother.
614
00:39:48,140 --> 00:39:55,005
Because the relationship with our mother
and or our primary caregiver from before
615
00:39:55,005 --> 00:40:00,755
we're born through our experience of our
birth through the first nine months of our
616
00:40:00,755 --> 00:40:06,245
birth especially through the next three
years through to about the age of seven.
617
00:40:06,985 --> 00:40:10,335
That is the blueprint for all
our relationships going forward.
618
00:40:10,895 --> 00:40:14,955
So anything that's been withheld
or anything that's been when there
619
00:40:14,975 --> 00:40:19,815
hasn't been a a close and loving
bond between mother striped primary
620
00:40:19,815 --> 00:40:25,110
caregiver And the baby, when there's
an absence of attachment between
621
00:40:25,110 --> 00:40:32,869
those two, the child grows up with
an internal, you know, we talk about
622
00:40:32,869 --> 00:40:36,640
our core when we're doing exercise,
you've got to strengthen our core.
623
00:40:37,650 --> 00:40:42,510
So we have a physical core, but we also
have an emotional core, which is why
624
00:40:42,510 --> 00:40:48,600
we look for this because Somebody who
has a very solid emotional core could
625
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:53,200
be impacted epigenetically, but be
solid enough and have a great enough
626
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:58,999
sense of self for it not to impact
their choices and decisions in life.
627
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:05,720
My mother was just a little distracted
during her pregnancy with me.
628
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:10,900
No doubt she was grieving the
loss of a child previous to me.
629
00:41:10,930 --> 00:41:12,510
I was a replacement baby.
630
00:41:12,789 --> 00:41:16,230
My brother was born in
the September of one year.
631
00:41:16,975 --> 00:41:20,345
And I was born in the December
of the following year.
632
00:41:20,655 --> 00:41:24,435
And in between, he was removed
from the family system.
633
00:41:25,875 --> 00:41:31,564
So, she would have been feeling
guilt, and shame, and grief, and
634
00:41:31,565 --> 00:41:36,985
wondering if this next pregnancy
with me was going to be normal.
635
00:41:37,365 --> 00:41:40,065
Was I going to be a normal child?
636
00:41:41,965 --> 00:41:43,664
So, somebody, you know.
637
00:41:44,105 --> 00:41:47,875
Who I was talking to said, you know, it
would have been like you as the baby was
638
00:41:47,875 --> 00:41:51,305
marinating in cortisol during that time.
639
00:41:52,685 --> 00:41:56,505
Yeah, then she brings me home from
hospital and she's looking after my
640
00:41:56,505 --> 00:42:02,535
father who clearly was living with
some form of post traumatic stress
641
00:42:02,565 --> 00:42:07,745
syndrome and she was also looking
after a disabled, very disabled
642
00:42:07,815 --> 00:42:09,995
aunt who lived in the house with us.
643
00:42:10,905 --> 00:42:14,265
And she was also caring for her
own mother, who had cancer and
644
00:42:14,275 --> 00:42:15,855
died when I was 10 months old.
645
00:42:16,485 --> 00:42:21,215
So she was just a little distracted
in that first year of my life.
646
00:42:21,215 --> 00:42:25,885
And in fact, I mean, the aunt
didn't die until I was about seven.
647
00:42:26,644 --> 00:42:29,485
So my mother had a lot of
responsibility, a lot of
648
00:42:29,485 --> 00:42:32,025
distraction, just within the home.
649
00:42:32,445 --> 00:42:36,535
And when I look back on it now, I
can see she just did not have the
650
00:42:36,535 --> 00:42:39,775
emotional bandwidth for a little baby.
651
00:42:40,540 --> 00:42:42,790
Who was, you know,
like, I'm pretty robust.
652
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:48,880
I didn't, you know, I didn't probably
need a lot physically, so I, I, I don't
653
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,550
feel like there was a solid attachment.
654
00:42:52,030 --> 00:42:55,570
How could there have been given that
there was so much that wasn't spoken of?
655
00:42:55,570 --> 00:42:58,690
There was, I don't remember
sitting on her knee and having
656
00:42:58,690 --> 00:43:08,350
been read to, I don't remember
any loving warmth stuff, you know.
657
00:43:09,340 --> 00:43:11,990
She might have brushed my hair
when I was sick once, but I
658
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,160
don't remember being seen.
659
00:43:14,810 --> 00:43:19,780
And so what I've come to understand is
that when you're not seen through your
660
00:43:19,790 --> 00:43:25,520
mother's eyes, the love of the mother,
and you grow up with this kind of Swiss
661
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:30,110
cheese like holes in your emotional
core, when someone else comes into
662
00:43:30,110 --> 00:43:39,300
your life as a adolescent teenager,
young adult, old adult, and sees you.
663
00:43:39,745 --> 00:43:46,165
You can't go, whoa, okay,
that person sings me, and
664
00:43:46,165 --> 00:43:48,035
you're so enamored with that.
665
00:43:48,310 --> 00:43:52,170
That you don't necessarily make the
right decisions and make the right
666
00:43:52,220 --> 00:43:56,600
judgment call as to whether you're
being seen for the right reasons or not.
667
00:43:56,939 --> 00:43:58,899
So, yeah.
668
00:43:58,899 --> 00:44:01,349
Something you can only see
in hindsight, isn't it?
669
00:44:01,930 --> 00:44:08,699
Yes, but attachment parenting, of course,
is now becoming more commonplace as
670
00:44:08,699 --> 00:44:14,295
part of the discussion around parenting,
which is interesting in an age when Many
671
00:44:14,315 --> 00:44:18,675
parents are glued to their phone rather
than making eye contact with their child.
672
00:44:18,925 --> 00:44:19,745
Catherine: Yeah, yeah.
673
00:44:20,095 --> 00:44:26,635
Now you just talked then about how your
brother was removed from the family.
674
00:44:27,504 --> 00:44:29,274
Could you just pop that in context
675
00:44:29,284 --> 00:44:30,185
Michelle: for our audience?
676
00:44:31,554 --> 00:44:35,594
So the first point about that is I
thought he had died soon after birth.
677
00:44:36,214 --> 00:44:37,734
That's what I was told
when I was a toddler.
678
00:44:39,110 --> 00:44:43,580
When I was 18, I found out that, because
he was absent, well he wasn't absent,
679
00:44:43,580 --> 00:44:49,340
he was on my birth certificate, but
there was no date of death for him.
680
00:44:49,490 --> 00:44:53,370
When I asked the question, the
answer was, well, no, he didn't die.
681
00:44:54,110 --> 00:44:55,940
Yeah, that was wrong, we
shouldn't have told you that.
682
00:44:55,999 --> 00:45:00,079
But he was born with, profoundly
impacted by Down Syndrome.
683
00:45:00,289 --> 00:45:05,480
And the medical team strongly advised
us to put him in an institution.
684
00:45:05,910 --> 00:45:10,410
Which is what was done in those
days, and in Victoria, that
685
00:45:10,410 --> 00:45:12,110
institution was Kew Cottages.
686
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,860
Some of your listeners are
probably familiar with that.
687
00:45:15,870 --> 00:45:18,570
And he was made a ward of the state.
688
00:45:19,070 --> 00:45:21,350
So, never to return to his family.
689
00:45:21,550 --> 00:45:26,220
And I said to them,
okay, so where is he now?
690
00:45:27,159 --> 00:45:28,579
And they said, we don't know.
691
00:45:28,580 --> 00:45:30,090
We don't know if he's still alive.
692
00:45:30,130 --> 00:45:32,240
We don't know if he is
alive, where he was living.
693
00:45:32,980 --> 00:45:33,800
We can't know.
694
00:45:34,100 --> 00:45:36,410
And so, they both died.
695
00:45:36,910 --> 00:45:41,670
Not knowing, ultimately, well, I
think when my, when my father died, he
696
00:45:41,670 --> 00:45:44,170
probably knew Grant was still alive.
697
00:45:45,510 --> 00:45:50,960
But my mother, I don't know whether
she did or she didn't, but at the
698
00:45:50,970 --> 00:45:53,309
time of their death, I did not know.
699
00:45:53,970 --> 00:46:00,550
And I assumed he had indeed died, because,
you know, in those days we were told we
700
00:46:00,550 --> 00:46:02,670
were dancing around children very rarely.
701
00:46:03,505 --> 00:46:05,815
lived past the age of seven,
particularly if they were born
702
00:46:05,815 --> 00:46:08,925
with other profound physical
ailments, which apparently he was.
703
00:46:09,275 --> 00:46:15,385
So it was very convenient for all of
us to assume that he hadn't lived very
704
00:46:15,385 --> 00:46:17,364
long, but he outlived both his parents.
705
00:46:17,694 --> 00:46:21,005
Catherine: And this period would
have been in the, the 60s, Michelle?
706
00:46:21,325 --> 00:46:21,485
Yeah.
707
00:46:21,505 --> 00:46:22,145
This was.
708
00:46:22,225 --> 00:46:27,080
And at what point in time did
you realize that he, um, A,
709
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,210
existed, and was still alive.
710
00:46:30,730 --> 00:46:34,729
Michelle: So, oh, this was only,
um, like a decade ago, it would have
711
00:46:34,730 --> 00:46:39,140
been, and that was only because I met
somebody, became friendly with a woman
712
00:46:39,210 --> 00:46:41,080
who had a real interest in genealogy.
713
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:47,020
And she just, she said,
oh, I see an only child.
714
00:46:47,020 --> 00:46:49,570
I said, well, yeah, I am.
715
00:46:50,180 --> 00:46:53,400
But, you know, there wasn't, so I
told her the story, and she said,
716
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,180
oh, well, we need to find out.
717
00:46:55,710 --> 00:46:59,430
And I said, well I don't know that we
can, and I'm not sure, I think we'll
718
00:46:59,430 --> 00:47:01,310
just find out that he isn't lying.
719
00:47:02,210 --> 00:47:04,490
And she was just not going to let it go.
720
00:47:05,580 --> 00:47:12,889
And it took a while, but she
found him in care in Victoria.
721
00:47:12,890 --> 00:47:15,639
So he'd been in one institution.
722
00:47:16,110 --> 00:47:20,930
After another, because two colleges
closed and they were moved into
723
00:47:20,950 --> 00:47:24,280
other forms of, you know, as a ward
of the state, into other forms of
724
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:29,689
care, so he was in supported housing
situation in country Victoria.
725
00:47:29,980 --> 00:47:32,859
Catherine: And you never got the
chance to meet Grant, did you?
726
00:47:33,350 --> 00:47:33,890
Michelle: No, I didn't.
727
00:47:34,089 --> 00:47:40,469
But I did go to his funeral and that
was, oh my gosh, again, I don't think
728
00:47:40,469 --> 00:47:43,449
I'd probably run as much as I did.
729
00:47:43,450 --> 00:47:43,469
Grant?
730
00:47:43,470 --> 00:47:46,490
I mean, I was consumed with shame.
731
00:47:46,500 --> 00:47:50,320
I was consumed with guilt, not
just my own, but my parents.
732
00:47:50,820 --> 00:47:58,369
But knowing what I now know about him
and resolving that missing piece, a male
733
00:47:58,380 --> 00:48:03,909
that was missing from the family system,
bringing his ashes back and having them
734
00:48:03,969 --> 00:48:10,409
placed in the Garden of Memory alongside
his parents and his maternal grandparents
735
00:48:11,709 --> 00:48:15,430
really was such a healing thing for me.
736
00:48:15,915 --> 00:48:20,375
Recognising, closing the
circle, having him finally rest.
737
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:28,530
With his parents was a huge
moment a huge healing step for me
738
00:48:29,190 --> 00:48:31,539
Catherine: We've briefly
talked about Chris.
739
00:48:31,910 --> 00:48:33,970
He was your significant other.
740
00:48:33,970 --> 00:48:39,100
I think that you've referred to him
as and Chris perhaps you would like
741
00:48:39,100 --> 00:48:40,670
to talk through the story Michelle
742
00:48:41,005 --> 00:48:41,115
Michelle: I
743
00:48:41,115 --> 00:48:41,495
Catherine: think
744
00:48:41,665 --> 00:48:45,195
Michelle: the part of the story, well,
I was trying to have a relationship
745
00:48:45,225 --> 00:48:49,825
with someone who had experienced
a lot of trauma in his own life.
746
00:48:49,935 --> 00:48:55,285
And as I mentioned before, as well as
his father and his, so there was an
747
00:48:55,285 --> 00:48:59,664
inherited family story there as well as
his own trauma, childhood physical trauma.
748
00:49:00,284 --> 00:49:04,575
And I think, Together, we didn't know.
749
00:49:04,615 --> 00:49:07,925
I mean, I just wish he was
alive now so that I could share
750
00:49:07,925 --> 00:49:09,235
all of this learning with him.
751
00:49:09,245 --> 00:49:11,865
It would be, oh, goodness, so different.
752
00:49:13,275 --> 00:49:16,484
But he knew more about me than
probably anybody else did.
753
00:49:17,095 --> 00:49:21,404
And so losing him was momentous.
754
00:49:21,405 --> 00:49:28,125
But I think what's important is that
whilst we couldn't make an intimate
755
00:49:28,145 --> 00:49:34,635
relationship work in the long run,
Our bond was much tighter than
756
00:49:34,635 --> 00:49:40,215
many couples, many married people
who, you know, we, we were in each
757
00:49:40,215 --> 00:49:42,525
other's lives on a daily basis.
758
00:49:42,525 --> 00:49:46,085
We didn't do anything without
the other one knowing.
759
00:49:46,145 --> 00:49:48,185
We shared all our learnings.
760
00:49:48,185 --> 00:49:53,405
We shared our mistakes and our
wins, and because he had Crohn's,
761
00:49:53,495 --> 00:49:58,085
it left him with a predisposition
for a particular type of cancer.
762
00:49:58,445 --> 00:50:02,435
And there was absolutely no question that
I would not go on that cancer journey
763
00:50:02,435 --> 00:50:09,654
with him and support him through that,
from diagnosis, through seven hour
764
00:50:09,654 --> 00:50:14,955
surgery, through two full cycles of chemo.
765
00:50:15,144 --> 00:50:18,975
And by then the cancer went into his
liver and pancreas and, you know,
766
00:50:19,055 --> 00:50:20,435
you know, it took time than it was.
767
00:50:21,255 --> 00:50:25,665
And his wish was, he did not want to die
in hospital, he wanted to die at home.
768
00:50:26,265 --> 00:50:29,484
Now for somebody who
had never, like I just.
769
00:50:29,970 --> 00:50:35,110
I'd never looked after another living
thing, you know, I mean a cat, yes,
770
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:41,119
but not, it was, I'd never been in
hospital myself, I'd never broken
771
00:50:41,119 --> 00:50:44,779
anything, I'd never had any severe
abnormalities, I just thought, how
772
00:50:44,779 --> 00:50:46,730
on earth am I going to do this?
773
00:50:47,700 --> 00:50:53,335
So I see that as a gift, you know,
he really gave me A gift that enabled
774
00:50:53,335 --> 00:51:00,525
me to find my inner fortitude, my
courage, my resilience, and I was
775
00:51:00,584 --> 00:51:06,244
able to look after him, care for him
at home, take responsibility for his
776
00:51:06,244 --> 00:51:12,555
final weeks and days and have his
wish fulfilled because he trusted me.
777
00:51:13,505 --> 00:51:16,175
I hadn't been trusted like that, ever.
778
00:51:16,815 --> 00:51:19,865
So, it's a significant part of my story.
779
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:26,040
I think it's also, it is, it was the
trigger for all of this other grief
780
00:51:26,090 --> 00:51:29,270
to sort of surface, because that's one
of the other things we learn is when,
781
00:51:30,220 --> 00:51:34,270
when there is something sitting in
your unconscious, it doesn't go away.
782
00:51:34,830 --> 00:51:38,539
And it just tries, just
tries making itself heard.
783
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:45,780
And when, when we don't address it, things
like a major life changing event can be
784
00:51:45,780 --> 00:51:48,289
the thing that just ultimately triggers.
785
00:51:49,300 --> 00:51:52,910
And now you've got to attend to
this, which is what I've done.
786
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:58,250
So I thank him and I honour him
and I wish he, because he had
787
00:51:58,250 --> 00:52:00,270
such a, a search for learning.
788
00:52:01,219 --> 00:52:06,025
But a lot of this work around
epigenetic, um, impact and
789
00:52:06,025 --> 00:52:11,895
understanding it has only really
become into the mainstream since 2016.
790
00:52:11,915 --> 00:52:14,615
He, he died in January 2016.
791
00:52:15,715 --> 00:52:17,845
All these books are
only being written now.
792
00:52:17,924 --> 00:52:18,815
We didn't know.
793
00:52:19,054 --> 00:52:19,795
It's new.
794
00:52:20,905 --> 00:52:23,455
But if he, oh, he would have just, yeah.
795
00:52:23,775 --> 00:52:25,375
It's an important part of the story.
796
00:52:25,435 --> 00:52:31,700
Catherine: It is, and, and, So is
the, the relationship with Sarah, your
797
00:52:31,740 --> 00:52:39,470
therapist, who was integral to really
you moving through that grief that
798
00:52:39,470 --> 00:52:42,709
you experienced after Chris's death.
799
00:52:42,709 --> 00:52:47,225
And, um, Really discovering
yourself in the process, wasn't it?
800
00:52:47,235 --> 00:52:47,245
Oh,
801
00:52:47,245 --> 00:52:47,885
Michelle: absolutely.
802
00:52:48,035 --> 00:52:51,485
One of the things I've learned, and
this is really interesting for us all,
803
00:52:51,485 --> 00:52:57,455
I think, is that in order to really
begin healing, we have to let go of the
804
00:52:57,455 --> 00:52:59,584
story that we've been telling ourselves.
805
00:53:00,145 --> 00:53:04,295
And I had to let go of the
story of I'm not good enough.
806
00:53:04,555 --> 00:53:06,155
No one ever wanted to marry me.
807
00:53:06,155 --> 00:53:07,675
I wasn't good enough to have children.
808
00:53:07,855 --> 00:53:11,325
I wasn't good enough to make my business
as successful as it should have been.
809
00:53:11,915 --> 00:53:13,005
I'm the problem.
810
00:53:13,555 --> 00:53:17,725
Oh, and I'm the problem because my
dad had this awful, difficult life.
811
00:53:18,285 --> 00:53:19,255
Blame, blame, blame.
812
00:53:19,465 --> 00:53:20,525
That's my story.
813
00:53:20,644 --> 00:53:22,545
Oh, you know, brother down syndrome.
814
00:53:23,025 --> 00:53:24,064
Oh, gee, no wonder.
815
00:53:24,194 --> 00:53:24,774
No wonder.
816
00:53:25,344 --> 00:53:27,084
I had to let go of that story.
817
00:53:27,624 --> 00:53:32,715
But in doing that, One thinks, well,
who will I be without that story?
818
00:53:33,075 --> 00:53:38,375
And what Sarah took me by the hand and
gently showed me over a number of years
819
00:53:39,195 --> 00:53:43,725
was that if we let go of that story,
we can actually find a better story.
820
00:53:44,135 --> 00:53:48,765
That is truly our story, because
my original story was built on half
821
00:53:48,785 --> 00:53:51,945
truths and an absence of information.
822
00:53:53,115 --> 00:53:56,475
And in the absence of
information, we always want to
823
00:53:56,475 --> 00:53:58,175
fill the gap, so we make it up.
824
00:53:58,695 --> 00:54:00,595
Not intentionally, but
we look for answers.
825
00:54:01,100 --> 00:54:04,410
Which is why I just love the whole
notion of narrative therapy and narrative
826
00:54:04,610 --> 00:54:09,970
coaching because we have techniques
that help us to rewrite the story.
827
00:54:10,270 --> 00:54:13,889
We don't need to live a story
that's full of holes and isn't true.
828
00:54:14,140 --> 00:54:20,440
And so she helped me see that my legacy
is to help others change their stories,
829
00:54:20,980 --> 00:54:24,170
to help others resolve the missing pieces.
830
00:54:24,750 --> 00:54:26,050
in their life stories.
831
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:31,710
And when I saw her, the first time I said,
It's like, there's a piece of my heart
832
00:54:32,140 --> 00:54:34,859
that mourns the babies I didn't have.
833
00:54:34,859 --> 00:54:39,750
It's the part that's missing,
that's mourning Chris, my parents,
834
00:54:39,930 --> 00:54:41,490
the relationships I didn't have.
835
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,330
All these things are being mourned.
836
00:54:43,630 --> 00:54:46,589
But now I've resolved
all of those empty holes.
837
00:54:47,199 --> 00:54:48,289
I understand it.
838
00:54:49,489 --> 00:54:51,569
I'm still working on healing them.
839
00:54:51,579 --> 00:54:53,339
Healing is a lifelong process.
840
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:56,020
But there isn't blame anymore.
841
00:54:56,810 --> 00:54:57,660
There's no blame.
842
00:54:58,490 --> 00:55:03,019
There's simply understanding,
resolution, the bits that come together.
843
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:04,700
There's thanks.
844
00:55:04,970 --> 00:55:08,389
Instead of the, Oh, gee, my parents
could have told me a whole lot more
845
00:55:08,390 --> 00:55:10,920
and life would have been a whole
lot better and I wouldn't have been.
846
00:55:11,830 --> 00:55:15,749
But now I think I've also
inherited their courage.
847
00:55:16,929 --> 00:55:21,309
My father's bravery to leave the
country, get on a ship, be turned,
848
00:55:21,339 --> 00:55:23,289
you know, went to, went to the U.
849
00:55:23,289 --> 00:55:25,915
S., And they said, sorry,
you can't come here.
850
00:55:26,465 --> 00:55:28,525
Put him back on the ship,
sent him back to Germany.
851
00:55:29,005 --> 00:55:30,585
But he kept, he kept going.
852
00:55:30,645 --> 00:55:34,135
My mother's bravery, my mother's
courage, my mother's resilience.
853
00:55:34,595 --> 00:55:38,855
Which is, you know, I think, why
didn't I turn to anti depressants,
854
00:55:38,935 --> 00:55:40,715
or alcohol, or other things.
855
00:55:41,175 --> 00:55:41,995
You know, all those things.
856
00:55:43,275 --> 00:55:44,055
decades of grief.
857
00:55:44,635 --> 00:55:48,525
Somewhere inside I had, I must have
had the resilience of my parents.
858
00:55:48,725 --> 00:55:50,085
So now I celebrate that.
859
00:55:50,285 --> 00:55:51,775
I don't blame them.
860
00:55:52,124 --> 00:55:56,745
Catherine: And what advice do you give
to others, Michelle, that find themselves
861
00:55:56,855 --> 00:56:00,115
developing an awareness that they carry?
862
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:05,880
I suppose other people's stories
on their shoulders that really,
863
00:56:05,990 --> 00:56:07,480
you know, how do you help them?
864
00:56:07,570 --> 00:56:08,170
What do you suggest?
865
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:08,349
Well, I
866
00:56:08,349 --> 00:56:12,529
Michelle: think the first thing is
we don't always know that what we
867
00:56:12,530 --> 00:56:15,770
do carry is another person's story.
868
00:56:16,419 --> 00:56:20,339
You know, I think the first thing is
we look at what do we blame others for?
869
00:56:20,339 --> 00:56:23,266
What are we continuously
complaining about?
870
00:56:23,266 --> 00:56:28,230
What are the patterns that we seem to be
repeating, whether it be relationships,
871
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:32,740
whether it be Work and not holding
down work, or not being happy at
872
00:56:32,740 --> 00:56:35,690
work, whether it be financial issues.
873
00:56:36,510 --> 00:56:40,209
What are the things that seem to
be repeating in our life that we
874
00:56:40,209 --> 00:56:42,399
can't resolve and we can't change?
875
00:56:43,230 --> 00:56:44,530
So that's where we start.
876
00:56:45,610 --> 00:56:47,969
Then we start to look for the reasons.
877
00:56:47,970 --> 00:56:55,535
And I kind of, like for me, it was
I liken it to, I tried everything.
878
00:56:55,775 --> 00:57:01,895
Like I told you before, I tried
meditation, spiritual healing, astrology,
879
00:57:02,255 --> 00:57:05,675
kinesiology, Reiki, personal development.
880
00:57:05,755 --> 00:57:10,854
I tried every form of
counseling, everything.
881
00:57:10,905 --> 00:57:12,605
I tried everything.
882
00:57:13,705 --> 00:57:16,914
And I was fine for a little
while and then I got sick.
883
00:57:18,205 --> 00:57:19,225
I'd go downhill again.
884
00:57:19,515 --> 00:57:21,335
And part of that was depression.
885
00:57:21,655 --> 00:57:24,765
I'd lock myself away for days
at a time, not see or speak to
886
00:57:24,765 --> 00:57:26,095
anybody, not answer the phone.
887
00:57:26,205 --> 00:57:27,035
People didn't know.
888
00:57:27,485 --> 00:57:28,645
I was very good at hiding it.
889
00:57:28,865 --> 00:57:33,545
So it's about saying, well, okay, that
was a behavior I wanted to change.
890
00:57:33,784 --> 00:57:39,174
But also I wanted to, I wanted, I really
wanted to change the pattern I seemed to
891
00:57:39,174 --> 00:57:41,414
be repeating around toxic relationships.
892
00:57:41,924 --> 00:57:44,999
And so we look for it as someone who now.
893
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:49,430
Helps people uncover their
life stories in this respect.
894
00:57:49,490 --> 00:57:51,520
I start listening to the language.
895
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:55,650
So we look for the language,
and you can do this yourself,
896
00:57:55,660 --> 00:57:58,679
you look for the language that's
really emotionally charged.
897
00:57:59,049 --> 00:58:03,009
So we ask a lot of questions, and if
I'm sitting with someone, I'm looking
898
00:58:03,010 --> 00:58:08,350
to see what's the emotional, what's
the somatic reaction I'm noticing
899
00:58:08,380 --> 00:58:12,810
when that person is telling me the
story or saying particular words.
900
00:58:14,110 --> 00:58:18,580
Because the hints for all of this are
in our language, in our core language.
901
00:58:19,230 --> 00:58:23,080
Then we start unpacking
that, and asking some other
902
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:25,660
questions, so there is a process.
903
00:58:27,015 --> 00:58:34,415
But failing that, finding a talk
therapist who is familiar with unwinding
904
00:58:34,415 --> 00:58:39,444
stories and rewinding stories is
really, it's a good way to start.
905
00:58:40,085 --> 00:58:45,875
Any unexplained feelings, for me it
was the unexplained misery, grief,
906
00:58:46,434 --> 00:58:50,565
you know, but there might be other
unexplained feelings that people have
907
00:58:50,595 --> 00:58:55,960
where it's not connected to anything
You know you didn't experience yourself,
908
00:58:56,210 --> 00:59:00,440
but you feel that you could, you feel
it, but you know you didn't, you're
909
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:02,200
not conscious of experiencing it.
910
00:59:03,370 --> 00:59:07,590
Then we will go, okay,
what's going on there?
911
00:59:09,139 --> 00:59:14,770
So, they're all starting points, but
journaling, you know, journaling,
912
00:59:14,850 --> 00:59:16,330
what do you blame your mother for?
913
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:18,180
How would you describe your mother?
914
00:59:18,530 --> 00:59:20,310
That's always a great starting point.
915
00:59:21,060 --> 00:59:26,090
Catherine: That's really good advice
of where to start, um, unpack or
916
00:59:26,330 --> 00:59:28,650
maybe tell your own personal story.
917
00:59:28,650 --> 00:59:30,809
Mm.
918
00:59:30,809 --> 00:59:33,590
Is there anything else you'd like to
share with our listeners, Michelle?
919
00:59:33,710 --> 00:59:38,870
Michelle: I would just urge people to
really, anyone who isn't journaling,
920
00:59:41,300 --> 00:59:45,100
Can I get yourself a journal
with blank pages and a whole lot
921
00:59:45,100 --> 00:59:47,100
of colouring pencils or pens?
922
00:59:47,830 --> 00:59:49,379
Do not do this on a computer.
923
00:59:50,020 --> 00:59:54,690
We unlock a different part of our brain
when we actually use a pen and write.
924
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:57,540
Put a question at the top of the page.
925
00:59:57,579 --> 00:59:58,831
Just start with the question.
926
00:59:59,370 --> 01:00:04,600
Something as simple as, Are there any
feelings I have that I blame others for?
927
01:00:05,060 --> 01:00:06,590
Really as simple as that.
928
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:08,229
And work your way from there.
929
01:00:08,260 --> 01:00:10,520
Use different colours
for different feelings.
930
01:00:12,100 --> 01:00:14,530
Pause, read it back out aloud.
931
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:19,030
When you say those words, do you
feel it in your body anywhere?
932
01:00:19,729 --> 01:00:25,000
Do you get an emotional charge when
you say, I don't want to be like my
933
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:28,070
father, or I don't, whatever it be.
934
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:29,240
Whatever it be.
935
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,190
Notice, do you feel it
in your body anywhere?
936
01:00:32,490 --> 01:00:33,670
Open another page.
937
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,340
Are you allergic to anything, physically?
938
01:00:37,030 --> 01:00:39,420
Are you allergic to any types of people?
939
01:00:40,350 --> 01:00:42,100
Just start observing yourself.
940
01:00:42,590 --> 01:00:46,610
Note it all down and find
somebody to help you unpack it.
941
01:00:46,930 --> 01:00:48,049
This stuff isn't hard.
942
01:00:48,999 --> 01:00:51,120
You know, this doesn't require medication.
943
01:00:51,350 --> 01:00:53,860
You know, it requires the information.
944
01:00:53,910 --> 01:00:55,400
We can resolve so much of this.
945
01:00:56,840 --> 01:01:01,190
By finding out as much as we can of
our life story and our parents stories,
946
01:01:01,210 --> 01:01:06,270
and I fully appreciate that that's
not always possible, but when it is,
947
01:01:06,790 --> 01:01:10,430
and we don't need to know a lot, I
mean, I still don't know enough, but
948
01:01:10,430 --> 01:01:12,889
I know enough to be able to join St.
949
01:01:12,890 --> 01:01:13,340
Dot's.
950
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:16,179
Catherine: Michelle, thank you
so much for being with us today.
951
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:17,830
Michelle: Thank you for having me.
952
01:01:18,050 --> 01:01:22,865
Thank you for your insightful
questions, and I hope your listeners
953
01:01:22,865 --> 01:01:27,515
found something uplifting and
optimistic from this conversation.
954
01:01:30,655 --> 01:01:34,074
Catherine: We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,
955
01:01:34,395 --> 01:01:35,965
brought to you by Critical Info.
956
01:01:36,905 --> 01:01:41,175
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957
01:01:41,175 --> 01:01:42,985
heard, we'd love for you to let us know.
958
01:01:43,275 --> 01:01:45,525
Send us an email, even tell your friends.
959
01:01:45,585 --> 01:01:48,615
Subscribe so you don't
miss out on new episodes.
960
01:01:48,795 --> 01:01:52,935
If you can spare a few moments,
please rate and review us as it
961
01:01:52,935 --> 01:01:54,675
helps other people to find the show.
962
01:01:54,945 --> 01:01:56,295
Are you dying to know more?
963
01:01:56,445 --> 01:01:57,435
Stay up to date with.
964
01:01:57,435 --> 01:02:01,365
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965
01:02:01,365 --> 01:02:07,565
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Resources
- Learn more: Narrative therapy and coaching
- Learn more: DNA testing for understanding heritage
- Learn more about epigenetics and intergenerational trauma
- Read the Book: 'Hush'
- My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?
Our guide, ‘My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?’ provides practical steps for the hours and days after a loved one's death. Download it here.
- Support Services
If you're feeling overwhelmed by grief, find support through our resources and bereavement services here.
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