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Helen: And I often ask, why
do you want to be a doula?

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Oh, I want to have people
have a peaceful day.

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And I'll go, well, good luck with that.

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Because some people don't.

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If you've got an attachment to
that, you're going to be imposing

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your vie ... Read More

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Helen: And I often ask, why
do you want to be a doula?

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Oh, I want to have people
have a peaceful day.

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And I'll go, well, good luck with that.

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Because some people don't.

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If you've got an attachment to
that, you're going to be imposing

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your view upon the person.

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The thing about doularing
is my client is the expert.

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The family is the expert, not me.

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So what I'm there to do is to
listen and draw out from them.

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What are their preferences?

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Let's help you navigate what
feels the right thing to you

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because you're the expert.

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And as far as my tick
list goes, is it legal?

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Is it safe?

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And is it possible?

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And if it ticks those three boxes, I'm in.

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Catherine: Welcome to Don't Be
Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging

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open conversations about dying
and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death back to life.

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Because while you may not
be ready to die, you can.

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At least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin nations

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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.

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We pay our respects to their elders,
past, present and emerging, and extend

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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Helen Callanan is a practicing end of life
doula and the founder, managing director

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and lead educator of Preparing The Way.

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Originally trained in traditional
Chinese medicine and Reiki, Helen has

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almost 40 years of experience working
with the aging, and the elderly.

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Very ill and dying.

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Preparing the Way delivers holistic
end of life and doula education

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across Australia and New Zealand.

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Preparing the Way is also very proud to
have designed and to deliver the world's

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first nationally accredited Certificate
IV in end of life doula services.

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The long term caring and death
experiences of her parents, family,

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friends and many clients alongside her
passion for education that transforms.

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led Helen to establish Preparing the Way
in 2014 and brings her wealth of knowledge

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to hundreds of doulas, clients and
their families and those close to them.

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Helen, thank you so much
for joining us today.

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Helen: Thank

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Catherine: you,

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Helen: Catherine.

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Thrilled to be here.

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Catherine: Helen, you've designed
and deliver the world's first

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nationally accredited certificate
for in end of life doula services.

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Can you tell us how this came about?

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Helen: Yeah, well, we're very proud of it.

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Number one, and it's coming out with
a lot of blood, sweat and tears and a

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lot of work with from a lot of people
and a lot of industry consultation.

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And it's barely been,
it's been a labor of love.

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I can honestly say that.

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And, and, you know, early on.

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When I created Preparing the Way, you
know, we were having conversations way

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back then about, doula was often seen
back then as a very grassroots, sort

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of bit left of centre, for some people
a bit woo woo la la, a bit out there.

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And so, in a lot of conventional care
settings, you know, End of life doulas

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were a bit marginalized and were not
necessarily taken seriously or were,

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it's a bit like how birth doulas used
to be, you know, they weren't allowed

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in the birthing suites but now midwives
actually actively encourage them.

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So, so we, At Preparing the Way,
the stats are that around 80 percent

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of people die either in an aged
care facility or in a hospital.

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Now, my mission and our mission at
Preparing the Way is all people,

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and that's capital A, capital L,
capital L, all people, are empowered

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with choice at end of life, and all
people having access to a doula.

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So, what I, I went, you
know what, the, the way the

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conventional care system works.

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Is generally speaking, you need a
piece of paper to say that you are

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skilled or to say that you have the
knowledge and the performance criteria,

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that you understand the laws that
you know about occupational health

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and safety and the infection control.

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And you know, those basic things
that are important and they're very,

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they're public health concepts.

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And if we want to work in that
and provide doula services.

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in those environments, then it
makes sense that there's a piece

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of paper to get in the door.

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And I want to just say, Catherine, you
know, we're proud of the CERT4, and

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it's an amazing training, and we've got
our first people coming through now,

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and we've just started our second one,
and our third one will start in August.

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But I really want to state up
front, you do not need the Cert

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IV to be a truly amazing doula.

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There are a lot of people, end of life
doulas out there who've had little

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training and they're doing it organically
because it is a role of being of service.

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So I just want to state that up front.

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It, we talk to people when we're,
uh, people come and say, oh,

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I'm interested in the Cert IV.

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We look at people, what
are your goals, actually?

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Where do you see yourself?

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What calls to you?

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Because you don't need the Cert IV
to be a great daughter, as I said.

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But if you want to work in the
conventional care settings, like some

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people come to us and they're just
like, I just want to be with our elders.

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I just want to care for our elders.

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Well, these days, if you don't
have a piece of paper, you can't

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get into an aged care facility.

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Do you get what I'm

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both: saying?

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So to

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Helen: me, it's about means to an end.

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It's about creating, and also the other
thing was, I was very committed to, is,

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is creating a professional, professional
role that doula is, because it'll

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always be done by people in the world.

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We're all going to be a doula at some
point or another for people in our

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lives, whether it's our family or a
friend or someone in our community,

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we're all going to be doulas.

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But there are people that are
particularly trained and are able to.

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that have a deep level of knowledge
and a deep level of experience that

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can actually then very gently provide
the support to a person and or their

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people close as they're navigating this
whole, you know, multi stage journey.

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And I'll speak about the 10 stages
shortly, but you know, it, in terms

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of How it came about, long answer, cut
it out if you want, in terms of, in

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terms of how it came about, I started
doing some research on what it actually

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took to have a course be accredited.

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And I'm telling you, it's a lot.

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And the, the hoops and the things you've
got to jump through to get it across the

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line, to have it signed off as valid and,
and it's, it's a massive undertaking.

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Thank you.

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And we started off by
doing a lot of research.

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We researched to people who had already
done our non accredited training.

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If this was available,
what would you want?

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And would you be interested?

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We talked to industry stakeholders.

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So we went around a lot of
different organizations.

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We had 30 or 40 different stakeholders in
the industry, in the end of life space,

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range of people, doctors, aged care
facilities, doulas, nurses, a whole bunch

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of people go asking their experience.

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We did a lot of demographic research and
put together, you know, a case for it.

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And, uh, and then we created the subjects
and, uh, we began then to, to build those.

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And as I said, we just
started our, our second.

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One, we just put our second one in
the water literally a week and a half

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ago and, you know, we've changed.

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I think we're on version three already,
even though we're only starting our second

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one because we're learning all the time.

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We made this up from nothing, basically
inside the guidelines, of course,

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we deliver it in partnership with
a registered training organization.

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That our program is on their scope
and that's called Essential Skills

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Training and Recruitment and they're
an award winning RTO, uh, based out

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of Newcastle in New South Wales.

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And they, they have so championed us
and worked with us to have this be

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the caliber of program that it is.

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We're very proud of it.

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And we're learning all the time.

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I say to people, when I haven't been on a
learning curve, we've been on a learning

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spiral, squealing, hanging off the sides,
you know, just spinning out of control.

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But you know what?

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We're very committed and we will,
we will fulfill our mission.

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You know, that's what we're here for.

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Catherine: And tell me what
are some of those learnings

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that you've had along the way?

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Helen: Oh, goodness gracious me.

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Well, We have both accredited and non
accredited training at Preparing the Way,

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and we've been dealing, delivering the
non accredited training now for 10 years.

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And that's where most people that have
done our training have gone on to be

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doulas, that's where they've started.

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And when we did the first, uh, the
first intake, we had people start that

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program, we did an interview process.

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We had people start that
program around half.

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had done our non accredited training, the
foundation workshop, and then the four

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day intensive, um, and about half had it.

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And what we found was the half
that had not, all bar one of

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them, withdrew from the program.

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Because we're talking about an
18 month We're talking about a

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significant financial investment.

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We're talking about a significant
investment of time and energy and focus.

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There are, it's something like,
I don't think I'm making this up,

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but there's, there's somewhere
between 50 and 60 assessments,

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both: right?

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That's a

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Helen: lot of work, right?

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So people started it.

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And when we interviewed people as
they were leaving, the majority of

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them were saying, you know what?

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It's not what I thought.

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So in other words, they didn't have.

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A real relationship with who and what
Doola is and who and what Doola, what,

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what Doola does and also the opportunity
to go, Oh, well, here's Doola, like, which

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if you've done the foundation workshop and
the four day intensive, which the others

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had, they were like, Oh, this is Doola.

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I want this.

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This is where I belong.

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This is, I want to invest in
this one woman who did the

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training, sold her house.

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both: Yeah.

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Helen: So that she could devote
her time to it, and she's the

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first person to get through.

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That was her level of commitment.

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both: Yeah, that's right.

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She's the first

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Helen: person to finish all of her
assessments, and we're just waiting on the

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nod from the RTOs that, you know, all of
her assessments have been validated, which

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it's a very rigorous process, and then
we'll be giving her her piece of paper.

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So, yeah.

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So that's the first person.

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Do you get what I'm saying?

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It's like, this work is a calling
for most people, Catherine.

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They really feel called
to this in their heart.

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This is a work of heart,
of spirit, of, of service.

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It's not a doing.

200
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It's not a, a clinical, you know, thing.

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It's a very much of heart.

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And so, That was one of the big things
is to make sure before people come

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in that they understand all and that
this really is an authentic choice

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for them rather than waste their time
and money, you know, so that was one.

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Um, another one was to that, that.

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When, when we're writing training,
as I said, we're on version three

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right now, when we first wrote, we
wrote it, I think we probably pitched

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it a bit too high in terms of, it
was more diploma level than Cert IV,

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and so the ASCQA has these levels.

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And so we probably pitched it a bit high.

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And so, uh, so we've, we've actually
ended up being able to, again,

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with the RTO's input and validation
and support, to simplify it,

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which is a great blessing, right?

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Always to make things simpler.

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Uh, so, and it makes it more accessible.

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We've also trained how
we're delivering it.

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So, and I think the other

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Catherine: Helen, just before
you go on, ASQUA, what's ASQUA?

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00:12:37,810 --> 00:12:38,329
Oh, beg your

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00:12:38,329 --> 00:12:39,020
Helen: pardon, thank you.

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So, ASQUA, which stands for the
Australian Skills Quality Authority,

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they are the governing body of
all things accredited, nationally

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accredited training, whatever level that

224
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both: it

225
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Helen: is.

226
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And so, ASQUA, They set all of the rules,
they have all of these parameters, and

227
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so we then, we designed the training,
developed the training, and that includes

228
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all of the assessments, and the assessment
marking guides, and the learner guides,

229
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which is like the manual that they get
for each unit, all of that, and then

230
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all of that, that we have 15 units.

231
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And all of that gets submitted to ASQA
and they go through it all and you

232
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pay a registration fee to do that.

233
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Then they come back and they go, you know,
here's the areas that are not compliant.

234
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So then you go back and you have, I
think, I think we had a four or six

235
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week period to get everything done.

236
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Otherwise, we'd have to
start all over again.

237
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So it's very rigorous,
very, very rigorous.

238
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Then finally, we got it all signed off.

239
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So then once that happened, then we go
to a registered training organization

240
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because basically preparing the way we
designed, we developed and we deliver.

241
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So we train and assist.

242
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But our RTO, or Registered
Training Organization, they

243
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are the ones who validate.

244
00:14:05,514 --> 00:14:10,594
the training and the assessments and
then they are the ones who actually

245
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give the piece of paper saying here
is your qualification you're cert for.

246
00:14:14,074 --> 00:14:15,064
We don't do that.

247
00:14:15,385 --> 00:14:19,174
That's the difference between certified
training and accredited training.

248
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both: See, our

249
00:14:20,785 --> 00:14:23,094
Helen: non accredited
training is certified.

250
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We're saying you have successfully
completed this, but there's no assessments

251
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and our bottom line is any organization
can certify their own training, but

252
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accreditation is by an independent party.

253
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And so that's our RTO and we have a 3rd
party agreement with our RTO and they,

254
00:14:41,209 --> 00:14:46,440
but they basically, we give it to them
and we say, here it is, we say it's ready.

255
00:14:46,610 --> 00:14:49,600
They then literally go through
the bind to Skyrim and audit

256
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,779
everything, and then they'll come
back and say, yes, it's ready.

257
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Now that's ticked.

258
00:14:54,209 --> 00:14:54,430
Catherine: Yeah.

259
00:14:54,750 --> 00:14:56,439
Thanks for explaining that process, Helen.

260
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And you were saying another
challenge that you had was about

261
00:14:59,630 --> 00:15:01,400
the, the training and the level?

262
00:15:01,970 --> 00:15:06,280
Helen: Yeah, so the level it was pitched
at, so I've created like a Cert 2, you

263
00:15:06,349 --> 00:15:11,531
know, is, is pitched at this level and
a Cert 3 and 4 and like it goes up in

264
00:15:11,531 --> 00:15:13,010
Diploma and Degree, all of that, right?

265
00:15:13,660 --> 00:15:18,010
So we, we, when we first wrote it,
we probably pitched it a bit high.

266
00:15:18,050 --> 00:15:19,540
It was more like Diploma level.

267
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And so the RTO were very helpful.

268
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In helping us work out where we had done
that and bringing it back and having it

269
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:32,120
be more, you know, more at that level that
it was designed, should be designed at.

270
00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:34,010
And so that's made it simpler.

271
00:15:34,070 --> 00:15:37,510
You know, we've also changed
some of our delivery style.

272
00:15:37,530 --> 00:15:42,680
Also, the other thing to bear in mind,
Catherine, that, We have to think about

273
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is that this is an adult education.

274
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So it's very different to school.

275
00:15:48,390 --> 00:15:51,579
It's very different to
holding people's hand.

276
00:15:51,579 --> 00:15:53,310
Now we bring doula to it.

277
00:15:53,860 --> 00:16:00,150
So, for example, some of the units in
the CERT4 are what we call core units.

278
00:16:00,180 --> 00:16:05,170
In other words, they're actually units
from other major training packages.

279
00:16:05,580 --> 00:16:08,310
So, for example, community health, right?

280
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,380
And we might have taken
one of those units.

281
00:16:12,225 --> 00:16:16,555
And we, and there's 11 of those,
four of the units are what we call

282
00:16:16,595 --> 00:16:19,005
enterprise units, which are, are unique.

283
00:16:19,324 --> 00:16:22,124
So they're the preparing the way,
and we also work closely with

284
00:16:22,124 --> 00:16:24,504
Natural Grace, holistic funerals.

285
00:16:24,834 --> 00:16:30,154
So the two of the enterprise units are
designed particularly deeply with Natural

286
00:16:30,154 --> 00:16:33,669
Grace, because they are to do with after
death, home based after death care.

287
00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:37,320
and also funeral care
and in a holistic model.

288
00:16:37,900 --> 00:16:42,829
So, so that's that, but the other core
units, the other 11 are taken from other

289
00:16:43,179 --> 00:16:48,479
training packages, but every one of
them we have contextualized to doula.

290
00:16:49,490 --> 00:16:52,930
So it might've been, let's say we
picked a unit like palliative care.

291
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,130
Now that's, that's pitched.

292
00:16:56,510 --> 00:17:03,329
at, to, to be delivered to people learning
palliative care, so maybe AINs or enrolled

293
00:17:03,329 --> 00:17:05,869
nurses or nurses or whatever, right?

294
00:17:06,199 --> 00:17:06,449
both: Yeah.

295
00:17:06,579 --> 00:17:10,009
Helen: But, but, but, but
that's a clinical medical role.

296
00:17:10,210 --> 00:17:12,569
Doula is non clinical, non medical.

297
00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:17,947
So every one of those units,
we re pitch them, bringing the

298
00:17:17,947 --> 00:17:21,780
contextualization to Doula, so that
people are getting trained, well,

299
00:17:21,780 --> 00:17:24,210
how does Doula operate in this space?

300
00:17:24,210 --> 00:17:24,260
Right.

301
00:17:24,619 --> 00:17:24,839
both: Yeah.

302
00:17:25,179 --> 00:17:25,419
Right.

303
00:17:25,449 --> 00:17:25,780
Still

304
00:17:25,780 --> 00:17:30,169
Helen: learning the same content
so that they understand that and

305
00:17:30,179 --> 00:17:34,350
how does doula relate to this
versus nurse or, or whatever.

306
00:17:34,419 --> 00:17:34,639
Yep.

307
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:37,370
Catherine: And how long
did that process take?

308
00:17:37,399 --> 00:17:38,990
Because it sounds very rigorous.

309
00:17:39,169 --> 00:17:41,389
Helen: It took us two years.

310
00:17:41,890 --> 00:17:43,750
With people working on it full time.

311
00:17:44,735 --> 00:17:47,980
Catherine: So, and when you,
when you think that you started

312
00:17:47,980 --> 00:17:50,080
preparing the way in 2014

313
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:50,380
both: Mm-Hmm.

314
00:17:51,389 --> 00:17:53,254
,
Catherine: this process took two years.

315
00:17:53,595 --> 00:17:54,014
Mm-Hmm.

316
00:17:54,935 --> 00:17:57,740
. And we had a little thing
called Covid in a month.

317
00:17:57,740 --> 00:17:58,910
Well, do you know what,

318
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:04,200
Helen: when Covid started in 20,
I'll never forget it, you know, may,

319
00:18:04,260 --> 00:18:09,990
uh, March, 2020, we had a choice
to make it preparing the way, and

320
00:18:09,990 --> 00:18:11,520
that was either shut the doors.

321
00:18:11,870 --> 00:18:14,930
Because all of the training up until
then, the non accredited training,

322
00:18:15,460 --> 00:18:18,159
had all been delivered face to face.

323
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:23,310
Except for the foundation workshop one
day I occasionally did on Skype back then.

324
00:18:24,270 --> 00:18:28,345
So it was either pivot to
Zoom, Or shut the doors.

325
00:18:28,965 --> 00:18:33,105
And I went, well, we've done too much,
we've got, we, we just need to keep going.

326
00:18:33,105 --> 00:18:35,835
I was terrified about putting all
of this training, particularly

327
00:18:35,835 --> 00:18:37,395
the four day, on Zoom.

328
00:18:37,395 --> 00:18:41,314
The four day is a very deep
transformational program, and, and I

329
00:18:41,314 --> 00:18:43,394
was really, uh, worried about that.

330
00:18:43,405 --> 00:18:44,014
But do you know what?

331
00:18:45,110 --> 00:18:51,000
It's actually worked amazingly, and in
fact has had a very positive outcome,

332
00:18:51,179 --> 00:18:57,600
and we keep the numbers small, so that
makes a difference, and I lead that, we've

333
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:04,370
got another trainer, co leads that with
me, parts of it, and that training now

334
00:19:04,409 --> 00:19:10,340
has become So much even stronger because
because of course there's breakout rooms.

335
00:19:10,340 --> 00:19:14,949
You can still do that work in smaller
groups You know, we can still watch videos

336
00:19:15,279 --> 00:19:20,129
We can do all of that and what we found
is that sometimes and I had a woman say

337
00:19:20,129 --> 00:19:25,270
this amounts Helen I'm so glad it was on
zoom and I said tell me why you say that

338
00:19:25,810 --> 00:19:30,195
I've been worried about that and she said
because one of the things they do people

339
00:19:30,195 --> 00:19:34,610
have to have done the foundation workshop
So Um, as a prerequisite so that everyone

340
00:19:34,610 --> 00:19:39,350
starts the foredate with the same language
and the same knowledge base, right?

341
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:44,070
And so, and they write, uh, they have
to do some projects in between the

342
00:19:44,070 --> 00:19:45,510
foundation workshop and the foredate.

343
00:19:45,849 --> 00:19:49,129
And one of those projects is
to write the story up close and

344
00:19:49,129 --> 00:19:50,940
personal of a death in their life.

345
00:19:51,510 --> 00:19:55,360
And on day one, everyone
shares their stories of death.

346
00:19:55,420 --> 00:19:57,350
So you can imagine the
space that opened up.

347
00:19:57,350 --> 00:20:00,880
It's very raw, very tender, very powerful.

348
00:20:01,449 --> 00:20:04,739
And so this woman shared the
story of the death of her baby.

349
00:20:05,740 --> 00:20:11,635
And Of course, it was very powerful
and very real and raw for her.

350
00:20:11,975 --> 00:20:16,394
She said, Helen, she said, I'm so glad
that I was at home, in my own home.

351
00:20:17,065 --> 00:20:21,205
And she said that I, I know if I had
been in a room full of people I'd

352
00:20:21,205 --> 00:20:26,004
just met that morning, I wouldn't
have gone where I went with my story.

353
00:20:27,014 --> 00:20:29,945
But that I could on the breaks
turn my camera off and turn

354
00:20:29,945 --> 00:20:31,485
my mic off and sit back.

355
00:20:32,100 --> 00:20:34,670
and take care of me and have a break.

356
00:20:35,020 --> 00:20:36,530
She said it made all the difference.

357
00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:37,840
Catherine: Wow.

358
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:38,250
That's interesting.

359
00:20:38,290 --> 00:20:39,129
Isn't that amazing?

360
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:39,889
Helen: Isn't it?

361
00:20:40,139 --> 00:20:43,399
Another woman said, Helen, and
this woman is someone who's done

362
00:20:43,399 --> 00:20:46,970
a lot of corporate training and a
lot of, you know, at a high level.

363
00:20:47,959 --> 00:20:50,909
She said, Helen, I, I travel, I've
traveled all over the world to do

364
00:20:50,939 --> 00:20:55,520
training and you come home with your
suitcase and your manuals and you,

365
00:20:55,520 --> 00:21:00,199
you know, you, you, you, then you go,
okay, how do I now integrate this?

366
00:21:00,614 --> 00:21:02,794
Into my life back into the office.

367
00:21:02,794 --> 00:21:03,905
How do I do that now?

368
00:21:04,235 --> 00:21:09,455
Bringing this rare experience from another
across the sea or whatever another town?

369
00:21:09,914 --> 00:21:10,654
How do I do that?

370
00:21:10,995 --> 00:21:12,344
She said, what's great Helen?

371
00:21:12,344 --> 00:21:14,544
She said is I did this at home.

372
00:21:14,874 --> 00:21:17,894
My home office now has got
my doula map up on there.

373
00:21:17,904 --> 00:21:22,524
It's got this up there and she said
doula is alive for me in my home already.

374
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:23,410
both: Yeah, from

375
00:21:23,410 --> 00:21:27,879
Helen: the day I finished the course,
so it's got pros and cons, you know, I

376
00:21:27,879 --> 00:21:31,259
know some people still want to do and
we are doing starting to do a little

377
00:21:31,259 --> 00:21:35,909
weenie bit of face to face training, sort
of as much as I can get out to do it.

378
00:21:35,980 --> 00:21:42,300
But, uh, you know, I think that it's
that pivot time when we pivoted, that's

379
00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:45,660
when we started working on the cert
for because here's what happened,

380
00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:50,179
Catherine, if you remember, job seeker
was out, but people were at home.

381
00:21:50,179 --> 00:21:50,260
Yeah.

382
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,190
So, people had some extra
money, people had extra time,

383
00:21:54,190 --> 00:21:57,520
but their courses just filled.

384
00:21:58,070 --> 00:22:03,820
Because people who'd been wanting to do
this for ages but couldn't get four days,

385
00:22:04,250 --> 00:22:07,870
all of a sudden were like, oh my god,
my opportunity's here, I'm jumping in.

386
00:22:08,645 --> 00:22:08,785
both: So

387
00:22:08,785 --> 00:22:12,245
Helen: all of a sudden, and also
every time I used to fly away to

388
00:22:12,245 --> 00:22:16,245
do a four day training, it was,
that was seven days out of my week.

389
00:22:17,225 --> 00:22:21,765
So all of a sudden I'm just going into the
office and leaving, I'm not traveling, I'm

390
00:22:21,765 --> 00:22:24,165
not packing my three 23 kilos suitcases.

391
00:22:24,404 --> 00:22:28,065
I'm not setting up a, you know, an
apartment and I'm not doing all the

392
00:22:28,065 --> 00:22:30,745
shopping and the catering and the right.

393
00:22:31,465 --> 00:22:34,375
I was just walking to
the screen and leaving.

394
00:22:34,805 --> 00:22:37,845
So all of a sudden I had
time and we had the resource.

395
00:22:37,855 --> 00:22:40,055
So I went, Oh, I can hire a team.

396
00:22:40,075 --> 00:22:42,564
Cause I was a one girl show up until then.

397
00:22:43,165 --> 00:22:43,985
It was a one girl show.

398
00:22:44,515 --> 00:22:46,665
So I was able to hire a team.

399
00:22:46,835 --> 00:22:49,745
So we just, I went right
now we're on the surfboard.

400
00:22:50,155 --> 00:22:50,605
both: Wow.

401
00:22:50,615 --> 00:22:50,765
So

402
00:22:50,765 --> 00:22:51,545
Helen: that's what we did.

403
00:22:51,775 --> 00:22:52,425
And we started.

404
00:22:53,034 --> 00:22:55,894
So it sounds like it was a total
period of growth for you then.

405
00:22:56,875 --> 00:22:57,605
Yes.

406
00:22:57,935 --> 00:23:04,665
And, and I can honestly say
Catherine, nothing could have

407
00:23:04,665 --> 00:23:07,175
prepared me for how much it has taken.

408
00:23:07,895 --> 00:23:12,135
It, it, it has taken not only
those two years, we have spent

409
00:23:12,274 --> 00:23:14,104
hundreds of thousands of dollars.

410
00:23:14,985 --> 00:23:15,425
On it.

411
00:23:15,435 --> 00:23:19,735
It's taken everything and I
don't regret it one little bit.

412
00:23:19,935 --> 00:23:20,905
Would I do it again?

413
00:23:21,555 --> 00:23:23,145
Yeah, possibly not.

414
00:23:23,744 --> 00:23:26,605
But at the same time, it now exists.

415
00:23:26,645 --> 00:23:31,645
And, you know, honestly, I got, I,
I lived into the end of last year.

416
00:23:31,674 --> 00:23:32,555
I really did.

417
00:23:32,675 --> 00:23:37,625
I, I just, I remember saying to my co
owner, Catherine, who's also my bestie.

418
00:23:37,645 --> 00:23:40,995
I banged my fist on the desk
one night and I said, that's it.

419
00:23:41,725 --> 00:23:45,985
I said, if preparing the way
and our work isn't flourishing.

420
00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:50,430
By the end of 2024, I'm
going to go and drive Ubers.

421
00:23:51,250 --> 00:23:54,500
I'm not going to shut the doors,
but because I, I just, I was like,

422
00:23:54,919 --> 00:23:56,840
how much more will this take?

423
00:23:57,785 --> 00:24:03,355
But you know what, I took some time off
over Christmas and I don't know, somehow

424
00:24:03,355 --> 00:24:07,935
something shifted and I've got my mojo
back and I'm on fire more than damn ever.

425
00:24:08,945 --> 00:24:09,895
And that's very

426
00:24:09,895 --> 00:24:14,554
Catherine: good to hear, but is that
the thing, is that like, do you need to

427
00:24:14,555 --> 00:24:18,125
just set aside that time where you just
say, okay, I just need some time out?

428
00:24:18,935 --> 00:24:19,754
Helen: A hundred percent.

429
00:24:19,825 --> 00:24:20,425
A hundred percent.

430
00:24:20,555 --> 00:24:21,845
We all do, right?

431
00:24:21,875 --> 00:24:22,535
We all do.

432
00:24:22,535 --> 00:24:28,495
And I think particularly with the
world as complex as it is right now,

433
00:24:28,985 --> 00:24:33,834
you know, if you think about it,
Catherine, there's no stability anywhere.

434
00:24:33,844 --> 00:24:35,634
There's no stability in our climate.

435
00:24:36,064 --> 00:24:38,445
There's no stability in
our financial markets.

436
00:24:38,445 --> 00:24:40,014
There's no stability in real estate.

437
00:24:40,245 --> 00:24:44,365
There's no stability in between
the world and other countries.

438
00:24:44,895 --> 00:24:45,725
Do you get what I mean?

439
00:24:45,935 --> 00:24:46,195
both: Yeah.

440
00:24:46,195 --> 00:24:46,454
There's,

441
00:24:46,455 --> 00:24:47,545
Helen: there's no stability.

442
00:24:47,985 --> 00:24:51,614
And also, there's so much
fallout from mental health and

443
00:24:51,614 --> 00:24:54,004
social well being from COVID.

444
00:24:54,645 --> 00:24:57,975
Um, there's so many challenges
for so many right now.

445
00:24:58,184 --> 00:25:00,625
Domestic violence is at an all time high.

446
00:25:00,884 --> 00:25:02,965
Suicide is at an all time high.

447
00:25:03,485 --> 00:25:06,505
You know, there's so much our
youth are really struggling.

448
00:25:06,825 --> 00:25:09,345
There's so many challenges
that people have right now,

449
00:25:09,375 --> 00:25:10,875
interest rates, the whole thing.

450
00:25:12,935 --> 00:25:20,655
I don't think self care or taking
time out or doing things that

451
00:25:20,905 --> 00:25:24,864
support our well being has ever
been more important than it is now.

452
00:25:25,494 --> 00:25:27,084
It's a very complex world.

453
00:25:27,505 --> 00:25:32,344
And then you add to that what can
often be a very fearful and stressful

454
00:25:32,354 --> 00:25:35,864
thing, like someone in our family
that we love or someone close to us

455
00:25:35,864 --> 00:25:41,675
that's got a diagnosis or advancing in
age or living with dementia or dying.

456
00:25:42,159 --> 00:25:48,520
Or dead, suddenly, you know, there's
just so much to carry for all of us.

457
00:25:49,490 --> 00:25:51,840
Catherine: And what are the
things that have worked for you

458
00:25:51,850 --> 00:25:53,300
when you take that time out?

459
00:25:53,679 --> 00:25:54,560
Is it a break?

460
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:55,620
Is it meditation?

461
00:25:55,620 --> 00:25:56,370
Is it reading?

462
00:25:56,610 --> 00:25:58,350
What, what do you do personally?

463
00:25:58,769 --> 00:26:02,949
Helen: Personally, I, first and
foremost, I have a very good therapist.

464
00:26:03,009 --> 00:26:04,749
Cannot do it without a
really great therapist.

465
00:26:04,810 --> 00:26:07,370
I have a very trauma informed therapist.

466
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,700
So that is something that I
avail myself of regularly.

467
00:26:11,900 --> 00:26:13,640
I love to float in float tanks.

468
00:26:14,304 --> 00:26:14,455
both: Yeah.

469
00:26:14,534 --> 00:26:14,995
So that

470
00:26:14,995 --> 00:26:17,905
Helen: for me is like that sensory
deprivation where I could just

471
00:26:17,905 --> 00:26:19,475
go in, I'm a meditator as well.

472
00:26:19,475 --> 00:26:20,215
I meditate.

473
00:26:20,745 --> 00:26:21,264
I've never

474
00:26:21,264 --> 00:26:22,564
Catherine: tried the float tanks.

475
00:26:22,735 --> 00:26:24,274
Oh, Catherine.

476
00:26:24,385 --> 00:26:25,054
Is it saltwater?

477
00:26:25,915 --> 00:26:26,274
Helen: Yeah.

478
00:26:26,274 --> 00:26:28,365
It's, it's like, you know, Epsom salts.

479
00:26:28,444 --> 00:26:28,884
both: Yeah.

480
00:26:28,885 --> 00:26:29,175
Yeah.

481
00:26:29,225 --> 00:26:29,685
Helen: Right.

482
00:26:29,955 --> 00:26:33,539
And there's like hundreds
of pounds of Epsom salts.

483
00:26:33,730 --> 00:26:38,889
The water's like about this deep, right,
about maybe a foot deep, and you just

484
00:26:38,889 --> 00:26:40,860
bob to the surface, you're like a cork.

485
00:26:41,310 --> 00:26:41,970
Catherine: Yeah, wow.

486
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,689
Helen: And, and, and here's what I suggest
you do, and if anyone's trying it for

487
00:26:46,690 --> 00:26:50,010
you, I say book at least two sessions.

488
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,590
Because the first session you're
like, okay, what's happening?

489
00:26:53,780 --> 00:26:54,550
Where do I get out?

490
00:26:54,590 --> 00:26:55,210
Can I get out?

491
00:26:55,210 --> 00:26:55,790
Will it be all right?

492
00:26:55,790 --> 00:26:56,610
Will I be all right?

493
00:26:56,610 --> 00:26:57,770
Your mind's just going, right?

494
00:26:57,770 --> 00:27:01,340
But once you've done it the first
time, it's like, okay, okay, I

495
00:27:01,340 --> 00:27:02,370
know what the routine is now.

496
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:02,540
Right.

497
00:27:02,570 --> 00:27:04,310
And you get it and you'll
probably have a better float.

498
00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:05,310
Third one, even better.

499
00:27:05,870 --> 00:27:09,990
So I, I, I, I try and float
probably every two weeks.

500
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:11,870
I'm going to, I'm doing it
weekly at the moment because

501
00:27:11,870 --> 00:27:12,850
I've got a fair bit going on.

502
00:27:13,180 --> 00:27:13,670
both: Oh, wow.

503
00:27:13,670 --> 00:27:14,200
That's amazing.

504
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:14,620
Bye

505
00:27:14,620 --> 00:27:14,639
Helen: bye.

506
00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:16,540
Yeah, so that's one of my things.

507
00:27:16,540 --> 00:27:18,580
The other thing for me is silence.

508
00:27:18,780 --> 00:27:22,130
So obviously meditation, but also
sometimes just staring out the window

509
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,500
is reading, you know, just taking time.

510
00:27:25,529 --> 00:27:27,950
I, I love, I love trees.

511
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,690
I grew up in the bush, so trees
for me are like my friends.

512
00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:35,310
So sometimes just going for, and
just sitting listening to the

513
00:27:35,310 --> 00:27:37,950
wind in the trees, oh my god,
that for me is like ointment.

514
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:44,470
The other thing is, for me, I have a
very strong, powerful team around me.

515
00:27:45,135 --> 00:27:47,665
So that's my team that I work with.

516
00:27:47,905 --> 00:27:53,275
It's also I live with my sister, who is
very grounded and very grounding for me.

517
00:27:53,585 --> 00:27:57,515
I have my spiritual
teacher and my, my mentors.

518
00:27:57,855 --> 00:28:01,534
I've got my colleagues that I
work with, you know, Libby Maloney

519
00:28:01,534 --> 00:28:05,445
from Natural Grace, Julie Fletcher
from Doula Connections, Catherine,

520
00:28:05,455 --> 00:28:07,125
who's my bestie and co owner.

521
00:28:07,355 --> 00:28:14,355
So I've got this amazing group around
me that, that, um, Help me stay focused

522
00:28:14,355 --> 00:28:19,535
and centered, you know, yeah, and then
on other nights, there's a glass of wine

523
00:28:19,735 --> 00:28:22,704
that helps and sometimes chocolate even.

524
00:28:23,145 --> 00:28:26,614
Catherine: And is that something you
teach in the course, the importance

525
00:28:26,615 --> 00:28:28,434
of self care with being a doula?

526
00:28:28,435 --> 00:28:28,864
Oh, yeah,

527
00:28:28,915 --> 00:28:29,485
Helen: 100%.

528
00:28:29,545 --> 00:28:30,394
Yes, yes.

529
00:28:30,394 --> 00:28:36,265
Look, the truth is, Catherine, in my
personal opinion, you cannot do this

530
00:28:36,265 --> 00:28:43,870
work in a sustainable way, uh, without
putting a strong focus on self care.

531
00:28:44,820 --> 00:28:48,379
Because the thing is that
you can't do this work in a

532
00:28:48,379 --> 00:28:49,939
silo, is another thing I say.

533
00:28:49,949 --> 00:28:51,129
You can't do this work alone.

534
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,170
And people often say, well, you
know, really, what are you doing?

535
00:28:55,220 --> 00:28:56,259
It's not like physical labor.

536
00:28:56,259 --> 00:28:59,360
No, it's, it's more emotional
and spiritual labor, this work.

537
00:29:00,029 --> 00:29:01,769
And it's about holding space.

538
00:29:01,829 --> 00:29:05,475
You know, that's a term that Heather
Plett, Speaks a lot about, and I,

539
00:29:05,545 --> 00:29:08,955
I love to acknowledge her for that
because it's, she's written an amazing

540
00:29:08,955 --> 00:29:10,775
book called The Art of Holding Space.

541
00:29:10,775 --> 00:29:15,125
One I recommend anyone who's in the
service industry of any description or

542
00:29:15,765 --> 00:29:24,545
should read Holding Space that we, we are
constantly in the face of things that can

543
00:29:24,545 --> 00:29:26,375
be emotionally challenging for people.

544
00:29:26,375 --> 00:29:30,645
We might be in the middle of argy
bargy and family relationships.

545
00:29:30,645 --> 00:29:30,705
Thank you.

546
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,830
We might be in the, in the middle
of dealing with something that's

547
00:29:34,830 --> 00:29:36,850
a very traumatic event for people.

548
00:29:37,650 --> 00:29:38,890
There's a lot of grief.

549
00:29:39,390 --> 00:29:43,910
And so we really have to be
able to sustain ourselves and

550
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:45,430
we have to have boundaries.

551
00:29:46,110 --> 00:29:48,159
And that's a word that
I couldn't even spell.

552
00:29:48,859 --> 00:29:52,353
And the reason I know how important
self care is, is because I've found out.

553
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:54,100
And I know what it is.

554
00:29:54,180 --> 00:29:57,110
And I know, I know what causes it for me.

555
00:29:57,470 --> 00:29:58,900
I think it's different
for different people.

556
00:29:58,900 --> 00:30:04,410
But so I think, and that's why I, I
recommend, I just wish everybody at

557
00:30:04,730 --> 00:30:10,099
birth was given a really great therapist
and a Reiki practitioner at birth.

558
00:30:10,855 --> 00:30:11,315
Right?

559
00:30:11,685 --> 00:30:14,965
You know, because Reiki is another
thing that's, that's part of myself.

560
00:30:14,965 --> 00:30:16,665
I do Reiki on myself every single day.

561
00:30:17,185 --> 00:30:20,285
And so, you know, that's
another thing for me.

562
00:30:20,345 --> 00:30:21,554
I take a lot of supplements.

563
00:30:21,605 --> 00:30:23,135
You know, there's a lot
of different things.

564
00:30:23,564 --> 00:30:25,925
This, this is critical
in this work, self care.

565
00:30:25,925 --> 00:30:27,175
It's not an option, I say.

566
00:30:27,234 --> 00:30:28,165
It's a necessity.

567
00:30:28,355 --> 00:30:28,595
Yeah.

568
00:30:29,415 --> 00:30:30,775
If you, if you don't want
to burn out, that is.

569
00:30:30,895 --> 00:30:31,795
Catherine: Yeah, yeah.

570
00:30:32,225 --> 00:30:37,885
And what other qualities do you think
that a doula should have, you know,

571
00:30:38,095 --> 00:30:41,545
if they're looking at this work, what
sort of person, personal qualities?

572
00:30:42,045 --> 00:30:44,164
Helen: Yeah, look, that's
a really good question.

573
00:30:44,274 --> 00:30:47,215
And we talk about qualities
and traits in our training.

574
00:30:47,864 --> 00:30:53,415
And, and look, I think some of the things
that I would say are most critical in

575
00:30:53,415 --> 00:30:58,115
my experience, and I would have five, 10
years ago, I would have said differently.

576
00:30:58,885 --> 00:31:01,965
But my work now, and I think, and this
is one of the things, Catherine, if

577
00:31:01,965 --> 00:31:07,535
I can just, if you like, uh, preempt
the answer by saying this, is that

578
00:31:08,455 --> 00:31:16,685
there's nowhere to get in this work,
that as I work alongside families, and

579
00:31:16,754 --> 00:31:22,765
I share experiences with families or
individuals, as I teach, as I share

580
00:31:22,885 --> 00:31:29,370
stories with other Doolas, and people,
students, that I'm changing all the time.

581
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,430
I'm growing all the time.

582
00:31:32,420 --> 00:31:35,540
And so there's nowhere to get to.

583
00:31:36,490 --> 00:31:39,640
And who I am today as a
doula is very different.

584
00:31:39,649 --> 00:31:45,090
So what I would say today about what
are the primary qualities that I look

585
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:50,870
for when I'm looking for a doula or
recommending a doula to someone else

586
00:31:50,900 --> 00:31:56,470
is their capacity to be present,
their capacity to come from their

587
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,499
heart and meet people where they are.

588
00:32:00,450 --> 00:32:08,250
That to be able to be and to be able to
listen, listening, oh my God, listening to

589
00:32:08,250 --> 00:32:11,389
listen, not listening to talk next, right?

590
00:32:12,339 --> 00:32:13,260
True listening.

591
00:32:13,980 --> 00:32:18,559
And also, I think one of the
biggest qualities and traits is

592
00:32:18,559 --> 00:32:24,620
to be able to develop a skill at
giving up attachment to outcome.

593
00:32:25,625 --> 00:32:30,245
Because if we go in there, and as I have
done, as I have done, how do I know this?

594
00:32:30,445 --> 00:32:31,085
Because I've done it.

595
00:32:31,625 --> 00:32:33,405
If we go in there with a Mrs.

596
00:32:33,405 --> 00:32:37,414
Fix It attitude, like there is something
wrong here and I'm here to fix it,

597
00:32:37,645 --> 00:32:42,075
Bum ball, wrong, answer will get
you into all sorts of strife, right?

598
00:32:42,964 --> 00:32:46,945
Because I, the thing to me is
this, I used to be a real Mrs.

599
00:32:46,945 --> 00:32:49,575
Fix It, and I was very skilled at it.

600
00:32:49,825 --> 00:32:52,725
I would go in, what, tell me, everything's
going, I would go, whoosh, whoosh,

601
00:32:52,755 --> 00:32:56,720
whoosh, fix, fix, fix, fix, fix, And
then I'd swan out the door feeling

602
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,850
very self satisfied, done a great job.

603
00:32:58,850 --> 00:32:59,530
But guess what?

604
00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:03,360
I actually left them no more empowered.

605
00:33:03,610 --> 00:33:05,600
They actually became more dependent.

606
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:07,460
Does that make sense?

607
00:33:07,850 --> 00:33:08,220
both: Yeah.

608
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:08,490
So if

609
00:33:08,490 --> 00:33:12,249
Helen: I'm there to actually
support people to go, you know what?

610
00:33:12,249 --> 00:33:13,169
You've got this.

611
00:33:13,679 --> 00:33:14,659
You can do this.

612
00:33:14,710 --> 00:33:16,930
This is not rocket science,
what we're doing here.

613
00:33:16,930 --> 00:33:19,530
This is about caring and responding.

614
00:33:19,975 --> 00:33:24,515
And we talk at Preparing the Way a
lot about being response able, being

615
00:33:24,575 --> 00:33:29,424
able to respond to what's in front
of you, not what your agenda is.

616
00:33:30,045 --> 00:33:32,625
You know, you might have made an
appointment to go and visit someone

617
00:33:32,625 --> 00:33:36,494
today to make their funeral plan, but
you get there and they've just got

618
00:33:36,494 --> 00:33:40,305
the shits, or they're just upset, or
they're, they're not feeling well.

619
00:33:40,525 --> 00:33:44,305
If we can't meet them where they are
in the moment, we're, we're gonna

620
00:33:44,305 --> 00:33:48,305
just walk all over that, because
we're paddling to our agenda.

621
00:33:48,305 --> 00:33:49,034
Does that make sense?

622
00:33:49,795 --> 00:33:51,145
.
Catherine: Yeah, it does make sense.

623
00:33:51,385 --> 00:33:51,835
Helen: Yeah.

624
00:33:51,835 --> 00:33:56,565
And I, and I think that the, the
big thing is nothing to fix here.

625
00:33:57,045 --> 00:34:01,935
One of the things about doula is being, as
I said, not being attached to the outcome.

626
00:34:02,915 --> 00:34:06,335
Because someone I said to, and I
often ask this of a doula, so tell

627
00:34:06,340 --> 00:34:07,415
me why do you wanna be a doula?

628
00:34:07,685 --> 00:34:10,445
Oh, I wanna have people
help have a peaceful death.

629
00:34:11,375 --> 00:34:15,095
And I'll go, well, good luck with
that, because some people don't.

630
00:34:15,765 --> 00:34:16,305
Yeah.

631
00:34:16,810 --> 00:34:20,740
And if you've got an attachment to
that, you're going to be in all sorts

632
00:34:20,740 --> 00:34:25,440
of trouble, and you're going to be
imposing your view upon the person.

633
00:34:26,430 --> 00:34:31,680
See, the thing about doolering is,
you are the expert in your life.

634
00:34:32,270 --> 00:34:36,270
My client is the expert, the
family is the expert, not me.

635
00:34:37,270 --> 00:34:41,420
So what I'm there to do is to ask
questions and listen and draw out

636
00:34:41,430 --> 00:34:43,870
from them, what are their preferences.

637
00:34:44,330 --> 00:34:46,200
Do they know what their options are?

638
00:34:46,210 --> 00:34:47,670
Let's look at your options.

639
00:34:47,900 --> 00:34:52,800
Let's help you navigate what feels
the right thing to you because you're

640
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,360
the expert in your life, not me.

641
00:34:55,190 --> 00:34:58,300
And as far as my tick
list goes, is it legal?

642
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:00,250
Is it safe?

643
00:35:00,780 --> 00:35:01,630
And is it possible?

644
00:35:02,620 --> 00:35:04,769
And if it ticks those three boxes, I'm in.

645
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:05,730
No agenda.

646
00:35:06,730 --> 00:35:11,000
Catherine: It sounds like it's one
of the very few occupations where

647
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,509
you can actually say it is selfless.

648
00:35:14,535 --> 00:35:15,255
Helen: On a good day.

649
00:35:16,235 --> 00:35:16,855
A good day.

650
00:35:16,975 --> 00:35:20,335
Because the truth is, Catherine,
we're human damn beings, right?

651
00:35:20,345 --> 00:35:20,805
Yeah, yeah.

652
00:35:21,135 --> 00:35:23,825
And the thing is, you know, one of the
things I talk about in the training

653
00:35:23,825 --> 00:35:28,165
and, and, is, is that, you know, I
have people come to me going, Helen,

654
00:35:28,165 --> 00:35:31,705
Helen, I'm thinking about giving
up chemotherapy, what do you think?

655
00:35:32,554 --> 00:35:33,715
Now, I'm a human being.

656
00:35:34,145 --> 00:35:35,664
I am going to have an opinion, Catherine.

657
00:35:36,664 --> 00:35:39,034
And I'm going to believe I'm right
about that opinion too, what's

658
00:35:39,035 --> 00:35:40,145
more, because I'm a human being.

659
00:35:40,285 --> 00:35:43,915
However, I zip my lip and my
standard response is this, well,

660
00:35:44,204 --> 00:35:45,415
let's look at your options.

661
00:35:46,435 --> 00:35:49,735
If you do stop chemotherapy, there's
going to be pros and cons to that.

662
00:35:49,745 --> 00:35:50,745
Let's look at those.

663
00:35:51,245 --> 00:35:53,035
If we don't know what they
are, let's go find them out.

664
00:35:54,055 --> 00:35:57,224
If you don't stop chemotherapy,
there's pros and cons there too.

665
00:35:57,675 --> 00:35:58,695
Let's look at those.

666
00:35:58,765 --> 00:36:03,674
Now, out of all those options, what
feels the right thing to you right now?

667
00:36:04,615 --> 00:36:07,825
On the understanding, you can
change your mind tomorrow because

668
00:36:07,825 --> 00:36:08,955
you're in, you're in charge.

669
00:36:09,225 --> 00:36:12,385
We talk at Preparing the Way about
giving people back the three C's.

670
00:36:12,725 --> 00:36:17,445
Choice, capacity, and control,
and facilitating a journey.

671
00:36:18,135 --> 00:36:21,045
Catherine: And you mentioned
just briefly earlier on, you were

672
00:36:21,045 --> 00:36:23,665
talking about there's ten stages?

673
00:36:23,795 --> 00:36:24,805
Helen: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

674
00:36:24,805 --> 00:36:29,375
So Natural Grace, who I mentioned
before, created a model that we,

675
00:36:29,385 --> 00:36:31,254
we call the ten stages of life.

676
00:36:32,095 --> 00:36:34,535
And the model talks about that.

677
00:36:35,530 --> 00:36:40,090
And I'll go through the 10 stages and
then I'll give you an analogy around it.

678
00:36:40,090 --> 00:36:44,650
So the first stage is a
person is living well, right?

679
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,089
But we say as an end of life
doula, I work with people in every

680
00:36:48,089 --> 00:36:50,009
one of these 10 stages, right?

681
00:36:50,020 --> 00:36:51,770
So the first one is a
person's living well.

682
00:36:52,165 --> 00:36:54,945
They're not particularly aged, they're
not, there's no diagnosis, but they're

683
00:36:54,945 --> 00:36:56,555
looking to put their plans in place.

684
00:36:56,555 --> 00:36:59,665
Maybe they're going overseas,
maybe they have elderly parents.

685
00:36:59,875 --> 00:37:03,525
So I work with a doula in
those, in that stage, right?

686
00:37:03,624 --> 00:37:05,334
I have clients that everything's fine.

687
00:37:05,754 --> 00:37:06,465
They're just doing planning.

688
00:37:07,015 --> 00:37:10,234
Then, then maybe there's a
diagnosis enters the picture

689
00:37:10,235 --> 00:37:11,965
or they're advancing in age.

690
00:37:12,305 --> 00:37:14,215
So then I'm, I'm working with people.

691
00:37:14,755 --> 00:37:16,295
in that section, right?

692
00:37:16,675 --> 00:37:19,285
But then maybe if there's a
diagnosis, maybe they start

693
00:37:19,305 --> 00:37:22,415
having treatment or they're living
with their illness or ageing.

694
00:37:22,765 --> 00:37:24,034
I'm working with people there.

695
00:37:24,705 --> 00:37:28,465
But then their treatment may stop
working or they're advancing in their

696
00:37:28,475 --> 00:37:31,524
illness or ageing to a point where
they need to move into palliative care.

697
00:37:32,095 --> 00:37:33,225
I work with people there.

698
00:37:33,995 --> 00:37:37,185
Then the last stage of palliative
care is called active dying.

699
00:37:38,060 --> 00:37:42,110
And that is a recognized set of
symptoms and signs that show that

700
00:37:42,110 --> 00:37:45,890
a person is now very close and in
the imminent, death is imminent.

701
00:37:46,399 --> 00:37:47,220
And then they die.

702
00:37:47,870 --> 00:37:51,470
I work with people there, but
then that's only halfway down.

703
00:37:52,299 --> 00:37:57,680
Then there is home based and family
led after death care, vigil, ceremony.

704
00:37:57,930 --> 00:37:59,690
What are we doing after their death?

705
00:38:00,510 --> 00:38:04,590
And then we might be doing funeral
planning and then we might have a

706
00:38:04,660 --> 00:38:06,960
memorial or a celebration or a funeral.

707
00:38:07,679 --> 00:38:08,889
I'm working with people there.

708
00:38:09,545 --> 00:38:13,575
Then we actually are doing the final stage
of returning the body to the elements.

709
00:38:14,275 --> 00:38:15,245
I work with people there.

710
00:38:15,245 --> 00:38:20,274
But then we circle back around, this
circle of life we talk about, we

711
00:38:20,275 --> 00:38:21,905
circle back around to the living.

712
00:38:22,725 --> 00:38:28,084
Now supporting the living, the people
left behind when someone has left their

713
00:38:28,084 --> 00:38:30,794
world, so we can work with people there.

714
00:38:31,644 --> 00:38:35,415
So in those 10 stages, and I want you
to think about this, this, this to

715
00:38:35,415 --> 00:38:42,265
me is the key point, is that end of
life doula, is the only professional

716
00:38:42,275 --> 00:38:49,295
role that I know of where there
is absolute continuity of care.

717
00:38:50,285 --> 00:38:53,035
So I start, can start
with someone at diagnosis.

718
00:38:54,030 --> 00:38:57,950
And I'm right there all the way
through that entire journey, right

719
00:38:57,950 --> 00:39:01,460
through the end, to when they've
died, been returned to the elements,

720
00:39:01,460 --> 00:39:02,790
and now I'm supporting the family.

721
00:39:03,790 --> 00:39:06,950
You think about it, because
let's say I noticed a lump.

722
00:39:07,940 --> 00:39:12,489
I would go to my GP, and my GP
would send me off for diagnostics.

723
00:39:12,499 --> 00:39:16,320
Maybe I'd have scans and x
rays and bloods and biopsies.

724
00:39:16,550 --> 00:39:18,230
I've got a diagnostic team.

725
00:39:19,090 --> 00:39:21,530
Then they come back to
the GP with the diagnosis.

726
00:39:21,530 --> 00:39:22,710
That team drop off.

727
00:39:23,695 --> 00:39:25,295
But then I'm sent for treatment.

728
00:39:25,315 --> 00:39:28,825
Maybe I'm having surgery,
chemo, radio, immunotherapy,

729
00:39:29,025 --> 00:39:30,235
complimenting, whatever I'm doing.

730
00:39:30,285 --> 00:39:31,585
But I've got a treatment team.

731
00:39:32,645 --> 00:39:35,784
But then after a period of time,
my treatment stops working.

732
00:39:35,945 --> 00:39:38,674
I'm now entering palliative care,
the treatment team drop off.

733
00:39:39,325 --> 00:39:42,074
Now I've got a brand new team,
palliative care team now.

734
00:39:42,685 --> 00:39:45,065
And they're great,
critical to my wellbeing.

735
00:39:45,595 --> 00:39:48,285
Then I moved to active
dying, but then I die.

736
00:39:49,285 --> 00:39:50,475
Palliative care team will leave.

737
00:39:51,175 --> 00:39:52,755
Now I've got a brand new team again.

738
00:39:52,755 --> 00:39:57,825
My family do anyway, got a funeral
team, but then the funeral happens and

739
00:39:57,825 --> 00:40:02,224
then they leave and then my family is
left with a hole where I used to be.

740
00:40:03,135 --> 00:40:07,775
And then they're navigating this
new normal with what do we do now?

741
00:40:08,785 --> 00:40:09,635
How do we do this?

742
00:40:09,665 --> 00:40:10,305
What do we do?

743
00:40:11,295 --> 00:40:12,435
End of life doula.

744
00:40:12,875 --> 00:40:17,155
Can accompany someone every step
of that journey, and that's unique.

745
00:40:17,935 --> 00:40:20,235
Catherine: And what seems to be
interesting also in that model that you

746
00:40:20,235 --> 00:40:27,895
were just discussing, is that the, the
client changes also during that process.

747
00:40:27,905 --> 00:40:33,004
So it is actually the person
who is well and planning, and

748
00:40:33,004 --> 00:40:34,029
then the person who is not.

749
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:40,380
It's dying and then they die, but then
it transforms to supporting the family.

750
00:40:40,810 --> 00:40:45,260
So it actually has sort
of like two roles, is it

751
00:40:45,260 --> 00:40:45,579
Helen: right?

752
00:40:45,579 --> 00:40:46,519
Yes, it is.

753
00:40:46,549 --> 00:40:50,479
And the actual, and it's not like
you're supporting one then the other.

754
00:40:51,010 --> 00:40:55,050
Generally speaking, in the majority of
cases, you're, you're simultaneously

755
00:40:55,050 --> 00:40:58,390
supporting both because they're
all going through different things.

756
00:40:59,260 --> 00:41:05,039
So sometimes I work with simply the
client and they're navigating their

757
00:41:05,039 --> 00:41:08,460
own journey or they're estranged from
family or they don't have family.

758
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,120
So sometimes I'm working
solely with the client.

759
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,310
Sometimes I work solely with
the family and I never meet

760
00:41:14,310 --> 00:41:15,500
the person with the diagnosis.

761
00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:16,870
Right?

762
00:41:17,670 --> 00:41:21,020
Some, because the family goes, and
could you imagine some people like, I

763
00:41:21,090 --> 00:41:24,080
don't want someone poking around at my
end of life, let's get away with it.

764
00:41:24,730 --> 00:41:27,899
But the family want the support
to know that they're doing

765
00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:29,180
and they've got their options,

766
00:41:29,599 --> 00:41:29,949
both: sort of,

767
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:30,680
Helen: does that make sense?

768
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:31,380
both: Yeah.

769
00:41:31,429 --> 00:41:36,520
Helen: But then, uh, after that, we
also work with the family after death

770
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,240
as well, as you say, but you're very,
that was an accurate and insightful

771
00:41:40,250 --> 00:41:41,300
statement, Catherine, about family.

772
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:46,390
That the person aging or, or living
with the diagnosis and ultimately

773
00:41:46,590 --> 00:41:51,230
dying, there's stages, they're going
through stages and there's constant

774
00:41:51,230 --> 00:41:55,749
change and this is it, you know, where
we've really got to be able to be

775
00:41:55,749 --> 00:42:00,680
adaptable and, and, and flexible as
an end of life doula because today's

776
00:42:00,690 --> 00:42:02,610
solution can become tomorrow's problem.

777
00:42:03,225 --> 00:42:06,795
You know, so you've just got to be
able to be in the flow and adapt

778
00:42:06,905 --> 00:42:08,555
and be very flexible, you know.

779
00:42:09,535 --> 00:42:12,744
Catherine: Now can you tell me about
last, was it last year that you received

780
00:42:12,755 --> 00:42:17,015
some funding from the New South Wales
Government to provide the accredited

781
00:42:17,245 --> 00:42:19,505
training in an aged care facility?

782
00:42:20,025 --> 00:42:22,764
Can you tell me a little bit
about that, that program?

783
00:42:23,234 --> 00:42:24,174
Yes, that was amazing.

784
00:42:24,184 --> 00:42:26,434
Obviously it's never
happened before I'm assuming.

785
00:42:26,444 --> 00:42:26,684
No.

786
00:42:27,180 --> 00:42:28,010
Helen: No, it hasn't.

787
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,340
And we've had an even bigger
development since then.

788
00:42:30,340 --> 00:42:34,640
So what happened was, through, through
again, through our RTO, Essential

789
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,830
Skills Training and Recruitment,
and they specialize in, in community

790
00:42:40,179 --> 00:42:42,570
centered sort of care training.

791
00:42:42,580 --> 00:42:46,689
That's what they do, community based
care and individual support and all that.

792
00:42:47,260 --> 00:42:50,800
And so they work a lot with aged
care facilities who are putting

793
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:51,780
their staff through training.

794
00:42:52,305 --> 00:42:57,075
So they set up this opportunity with
Baptist Care, uh, based in Newcastle

795
00:42:57,705 --> 00:43:03,345
and, and the government funded 16
of the Baptist Care staff to go

796
00:43:03,575 --> 00:43:06,565
through two of the accredited units.

797
00:43:06,935 --> 00:43:08,435
And it was called a skill set.

798
00:43:09,435 --> 00:43:14,625
And one of them was our, our enterprise
unit at preparing the way on active dying.

799
00:43:15,050 --> 00:43:20,880
So training the staff in how to be
more death comfortable, more death

800
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:26,450
confident, so that they could actually
be interacting with the residents

801
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:32,379
and or the families of people as they
were actively dying and support them,

802
00:43:32,549 --> 00:43:37,150
both, both, both parties, but then the
other unit was about palliative care.

803
00:43:37,870 --> 00:43:42,840
Now, we did one unit and then we took a
two week break and we did the second unit.

804
00:43:43,715 --> 00:43:47,665
The feedback after the first unit, when
they came back to do the second one

805
00:43:47,665 --> 00:43:52,594
was, and to see, and these 16 staff,
there was four of them were RNs, but

806
00:43:52,674 --> 00:43:57,895
all of the rest were floor staff, so
general support care workers, right?

807
00:43:57,935 --> 00:43:59,904
And I think we had an activities person.

808
00:44:00,024 --> 00:44:00,755
Four registered

809
00:44:00,975 --> 00:44:01,475
Catherine: nurses?

810
00:44:01,655 --> 00:44:05,625
Helen: No, no, four, four
registered nurses, yeah, of the 16.

811
00:44:05,715 --> 00:44:05,975
Catherine: Ah,

812
00:44:05,985 --> 00:44:06,205
Helen: okay.

813
00:44:06,215 --> 00:44:10,895
All the rest were like general care
staff, like care support staff.

814
00:44:10,895 --> 00:44:11,029
Okay.

815
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,760
And I think there was an
activities person and one of them

816
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:15,320
was a, was a manager as well.

817
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:21,130
So, and to hear the, the floor
staff who, who interviewed on day

818
00:44:21,130 --> 00:44:24,080
one, introduced themselves like,
Oh, I'm just a care support worker.

819
00:44:24,570 --> 00:44:25,920
I'm like, are you kidding?

820
00:44:26,340 --> 00:44:27,590
No, just about that.

821
00:44:27,599 --> 00:44:29,459
You're the person at the coalface, right?

822
00:44:29,999 --> 00:44:35,250
So to see these, care support
workers come back going, it worked.

823
00:44:35,350 --> 00:44:38,060
I was really able to talk to
someone and it made a difference

824
00:44:38,070 --> 00:44:38,930
for them and their family.

825
00:44:38,930 --> 00:44:41,700
And I was so lit up and so excited.

826
00:44:42,370 --> 00:44:48,079
And so it was so effective that Baptist
Care then contacted the RTO and said,

827
00:44:48,089 --> 00:44:53,220
we want to put this out to all of our
New South Wales and ACT properties.

828
00:44:54,220 --> 00:44:56,450
However, of course, then the
government funding changed.

829
00:44:56,975 --> 00:44:57,965
as funding does.

830
00:44:58,805 --> 00:45:03,165
So that hasn't happened at this point, but
I know it's something that they wanted.

831
00:45:03,585 --> 00:45:09,215
But what then happened in December is
that this is a real, really big deal.

832
00:45:09,925 --> 00:45:14,384
So the New South Wales government have
what they call a smart and skilled list.

833
00:45:15,185 --> 00:45:21,284
And smart and skilled list is professions
across every area of, of, of work, uh,

834
00:45:21,304 --> 00:45:23,574
professions that they say are needed.

835
00:45:24,685 --> 00:45:30,315
in the community, in the workspace, in
the workforce, and they actually provide

836
00:45:30,315 --> 00:45:36,075
subsidy funding towards people doing
that training to build the skill sets

837
00:45:36,164 --> 00:45:38,005
out in the community, in the workforce.

838
00:45:38,995 --> 00:45:43,294
So they have actually put our Cert
IV in end of life doula services

839
00:45:43,324 --> 00:45:44,745
on the smart and skilled list.

840
00:45:45,284 --> 00:45:45,724
both: Wow.

841
00:45:45,725 --> 00:45:50,290
Helen: So people living in New South
Wales and or working in New South

842
00:45:50,290 --> 00:45:56,000
Wales, and there's certain criteria and
eligibility, but they can now receive

843
00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:02,130
the majority of the tuition of the course
funded by the New South Wales government.

844
00:46:03,100 --> 00:46:05,919
And we just had, it's absolutely huge.

845
00:46:06,180 --> 00:46:10,480
The government, this is an
extraordinary endorsement and

846
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,220
validation of the power of this role.

847
00:46:13,620 --> 00:46:18,260
Because you think about it, there's some
stats that came out, um, internationally

848
00:46:18,990 --> 00:46:20,630
and Professor Alan Kelly here.

849
00:46:21,180 --> 00:46:23,360
Uh, actually shared them in a video.

850
00:46:24,110 --> 00:46:27,970
He talks about the 95 percent
and the 5 percent rule and

851
00:46:27,970 --> 00:46:29,670
this is, this is really key.

852
00:46:30,690 --> 00:46:39,559
So he says that only 5 percent of the time
a person is aging and dying or grieving.

853
00:46:39,890 --> 00:46:43,600
Only 5 percent of the time are they
in front of a doctor or a nurse.

854
00:46:44,850 --> 00:46:45,290
Five.

855
00:46:46,265 --> 00:46:51,575
90 percent of the time they are either
alone with their family, friends,

856
00:46:51,605 --> 00:46:57,295
community, maybe groups they're part
of, the TV, The internet or the dog.

857
00:46:58,205 --> 00:47:00,145
95 percent of the time.

858
00:47:00,745 --> 00:47:05,435
So End of Life Doula works
exclusively in that 95%.

859
00:47:05,995 --> 00:47:09,265
We don't do the medical and
clinical, we work alongside that.

860
00:47:10,085 --> 00:47:15,764
But we are about helping people become
death comfortable, death confident, and

861
00:47:15,764 --> 00:47:20,245
feeling because, you know, we outsourced
death about 100 years ago, right?

862
00:47:20,645 --> 00:47:25,855
We sent it to aged care facilities and
funeral directors and hospices and things.

863
00:47:26,125 --> 00:47:27,935
Now, nothing wrong with that, right?

864
00:47:27,935 --> 00:47:28,004
Right.

865
00:47:28,565 --> 00:47:35,665
But, it had an impact and a cost, and
the cost was we lost our confidence and

866
00:47:35,665 --> 00:47:40,795
our capacity to take care of our aging,
our dying, our dead, and our grieving.

867
00:47:41,805 --> 00:47:44,135
We've got to, as Libby Maloney
from Natural Grace says,

868
00:47:44,135 --> 00:47:46,564
we've got to reverse pioneer.

869
00:47:46,604 --> 00:47:49,615
We've got to bring back the
past like our grandparents and

870
00:47:49,615 --> 00:47:51,205
great grandparents used to do.

871
00:47:51,785 --> 00:47:52,565
We've got to do that.

872
00:47:52,625 --> 00:47:52,855
Yeah.

873
00:47:53,890 --> 00:47:55,390
And have the conversations.

874
00:47:56,010 --> 00:47:57,730
Yeah, no, no, no, absolutely.

875
00:47:57,910 --> 00:47:58,430
Mm hmm.

876
00:47:58,730 --> 00:47:59,520
That's the thing.

877
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,270
Catherine: And when a doula has completed
one of your courses, and look, it's

878
00:48:04,270 --> 00:48:09,400
amazing that you've managed to get on
that list and that that training can be

879
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:16,150
subsidised, but when doulas have completed
their training, what do they, do they

880
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:20,560
look at going into a care facility or do
they look at running their own business?

881
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:21,950
What are we sort of saying?

882
00:48:21,959 --> 00:48:23,950
How are they finding
employment afterwards?

883
00:48:24,595 --> 00:48:27,405
Helen: Well, this is a changing thing
because the thing to remember is

884
00:48:27,405 --> 00:48:32,425
this is an emerging industry and now
with the Cert IV there's a lot more

885
00:48:33,065 --> 00:48:37,515
interest in, in this role and that
was part of us doing this, right?

886
00:48:38,074 --> 00:48:40,425
So, doulas are faced with a few things.

887
00:48:41,124 --> 00:48:45,195
Firstly, the majority of doulas
who go on and actually take this

888
00:48:45,195 --> 00:48:47,915
work up, uh, they actually do.

889
00:48:47,915 --> 00:48:51,745
They either start their own practice
or their own small business.

890
00:48:52,630 --> 00:48:56,610
And we give them in the training,
we give them support and resources

891
00:48:56,660 --> 00:48:58,140
to about how to go about that.

892
00:48:58,150 --> 00:49:00,130
But as anyone who started
their own business will tell

893
00:49:00,130 --> 00:49:01,229
you, that's a big thing.

894
00:49:01,780 --> 00:49:04,259
You know, most businesses
fail in the first year.

895
00:49:04,819 --> 00:49:08,179
And, uh, so, you know,
that's, that's a big thing.

896
00:49:08,179 --> 00:49:12,830
But there are doulas now out there,
very successful, that are now getting

897
00:49:12,830 --> 00:49:17,930
employed through NDIS packaging,
and also My Aged Care packaging.

898
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:20,400
And I've been paid through both of those.

899
00:49:20,805 --> 00:49:21,875
packaging, right?

900
00:49:22,365 --> 00:49:26,535
There are also doulas out there
that are doing it, you know, uh,

901
00:49:26,575 --> 00:49:28,475
in, in their local communities.

902
00:49:28,984 --> 00:49:31,044
Doulas are out there doing death cafes.

903
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,690
And what we're, one of the things we
talk about in the four day intensive and

904
00:49:34,690 --> 00:49:41,139
we, we, and in the, in the CERT4, people
can choose, there's actually a, one of

905
00:49:41,140 --> 00:49:46,190
the modules is about doing a business
plan and creating new business, right?

906
00:49:46,190 --> 00:49:50,290
So that's the CERT4, but in the non
accredited training, in the four

907
00:49:50,290 --> 00:49:52,230
day, we do do work around this.

908
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,130
You know, how do you
talk about what you do?

909
00:49:54,140 --> 00:49:55,340
Where do you promote yourself?

910
00:49:55,370 --> 00:49:56,390
How do you do that?

911
00:49:56,730 --> 00:49:58,000
How do you get yourself out there?

912
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,090
Because as I say to the doulas,
what we have to confront.

913
00:50:01,750 --> 00:50:05,530
is you have to get known in
your communities and your

914
00:50:05,530 --> 00:50:07,560
world as the go to deaf person.

915
00:50:08,470 --> 00:50:09,440
How do you do that?

916
00:50:09,460 --> 00:50:12,300
You've got, you can't do that
sitting at home behind the door.

917
00:50:12,739 --> 00:50:13,989
You've got to be out there.

918
00:50:14,010 --> 00:50:15,189
You've got to be talking.

919
00:50:15,189 --> 00:50:17,989
And as you say, Catherine, sharing
the conversation, sharing the

920
00:50:17,989 --> 00:50:19,540
conversation, talking to people.

921
00:50:20,070 --> 00:50:22,430
You know, we've got one of our doulas
shared the other day, which I love,

922
00:50:22,430 --> 00:50:24,010
and other doulas are taking it up.

923
00:50:24,390 --> 00:50:28,300
She got herself a badge made with her
name on it and says, end of life doula.

924
00:50:28,490 --> 00:50:31,360
Anytime she walks out of the
house, she puts it on because

925
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:32,510
it's a conversation setter.

926
00:50:32,530 --> 00:50:33,140
What's that?

927
00:50:33,530 --> 00:50:33,940
both: Yeah.

928
00:50:34,020 --> 00:50:35,130
Helen: Another conversation.

929
00:50:35,510 --> 00:50:39,800
Because, you know, as Julia Fletcher said
from, from Doula Connections, she said,

930
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:45,354
Helen, until doula becomes as well known
as nurse, we've got a big job ahead of us.

931
00:50:46,355 --> 00:50:49,855
Because we have to, that's why talking
about Doola and why I'm always so

932
00:50:49,855 --> 00:50:53,835
grateful to be able to come on things
like your podcast, to be able to share

933
00:50:53,835 --> 00:50:59,314
about Doola because we have to be able to
show people and tell people here is what

934
00:50:59,314 --> 00:51:01,315
is available for you and your family.

935
00:51:01,325 --> 00:51:03,055
You don't have to do this alone.

936
00:51:03,634 --> 00:51:08,265
There are supports out there to give
you the confidence to do this so that

937
00:51:08,265 --> 00:51:11,625
when it's all over you can honestly
put your hand on your heart and go, you

938
00:51:11,625 --> 00:51:13,875
know what, we did a really good job.

939
00:51:14,495 --> 00:51:16,495
We gave them the send off they wanted.

940
00:51:16,525 --> 00:51:19,485
We took care of them at
home the way they wanted.

941
00:51:20,015 --> 00:51:22,565
Because that dullering has
to go, and people have to go

942
00:51:22,575 --> 00:51:23,864
back into their homes to die.

943
00:51:23,865 --> 00:51:24,855
There just aren't enough beds.

944
00:51:26,075 --> 00:51:27,895
And we can help people do that safely.

945
00:51:28,885 --> 00:51:31,595
Catherine: And what do you think
some of the significant challenges

946
00:51:31,595 --> 00:51:35,974
that families face when they,
you know, a loved one does die?

947
00:51:37,590 --> 00:51:42,520
Helen: The reason I'm pausing is because
there's so much that happens up to time.

948
00:51:42,550 --> 00:51:46,070
So I'm like, where do I, where do
I pick, where do I go with this?

949
00:51:47,060 --> 00:51:54,050
I would say one of the biggest things
that I see is our fear of grief and

950
00:51:54,110 --> 00:51:57,539
our culture, particularly in the West.

951
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:01,380
Our culture of she'll be right, I'm fine.

952
00:52:03,100 --> 00:52:04,550
Oh, it's been three months.

953
00:52:04,770 --> 00:52:07,000
Surely you're starting
to move over it now.

954
00:52:08,045 --> 00:52:10,825
You know, we, we are
uneducated around grief.

955
00:52:11,505 --> 00:52:12,735
Grief is a gift.

956
00:52:13,155 --> 00:52:19,635
Grief is an extraordinary,
beautiful, awful gift.

957
00:52:20,625 --> 00:52:21,745
And it hurts like hell.

958
00:52:22,735 --> 00:52:24,195
And it's messy, often.

959
00:52:24,805 --> 00:52:26,665
And sometimes we can't even function.

960
00:52:27,564 --> 00:52:31,595
And that's normal, and
organic, and healthy.

961
00:52:32,565 --> 00:52:37,489
And the more we can embrace our
grief, the more we can heal.

962
00:52:38,170 --> 00:52:43,310
powerful and healing
our bereavement can be.

963
00:52:44,300 --> 00:52:49,729
And when it's been a primary relationship,
you know, the books say, you know, someone

964
00:52:49,730 --> 00:52:55,040
is newly bereaved for two years, but I
tell you what, I've seen three, four, five

965
00:52:56,039 --> 00:52:58,330
when it's a prime big, a big relationship.

966
00:52:58,859 --> 00:53:01,929
So I think grieving, I think
that's one of the difficult things.

967
00:53:01,929 --> 00:53:06,409
I think another difficult thing
is that people, the adjustment.

968
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:12,790
to life that was not of their choosing.

969
00:53:13,790 --> 00:53:19,010
So we can often fight change
and this thing has happened and

970
00:53:19,010 --> 00:53:21,050
our person's been taken from us.

971
00:53:21,050 --> 00:53:24,910
It's like the word bereavement
is like to rob, right?

972
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:26,130
It comes from to rob.

973
00:53:26,419 --> 00:53:28,979
So it's like we've been
violated in some way.

974
00:53:29,820 --> 00:53:30,110
both: And

975
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:36,900
Helen: so, and I think, yeah, that
so as, as in our bereavement and

976
00:53:36,900 --> 00:53:40,390
our grief, We often go inward.

977
00:53:41,390 --> 00:53:45,490
Mourning, see grieving is
like the internalization of

978
00:53:45,490 --> 00:53:47,240
the feeling that we have.

979
00:53:47,530 --> 00:53:50,320
Mourning is when we externalize that.

980
00:53:50,970 --> 00:53:54,879
So when we go to a funeral,
when we talk about our person.

981
00:53:55,420 --> 00:54:00,130
When we share about them, when we grieve,
when, you know, like that, there's visit

982
00:54:00,130 --> 00:54:05,110
for things, that's externalizing the
grief, giving it voice, giving it room

983
00:54:05,259 --> 00:54:12,050
to be, and, and I think that to me is
one of the most powerful things to do.

984
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:16,850
We, we are often frightened
of people's grief.

985
00:54:17,850 --> 00:54:21,270
We often feel uncomfortable
in the face of someone we care

986
00:54:21,270 --> 00:54:22,580
about who's deeply grieving.

987
00:54:23,100 --> 00:54:24,700
We want it to go away.

988
00:54:25,730 --> 00:54:32,260
We want to soothe them and pack them
rather than say no, howl at the moon,

989
00:54:32,890 --> 00:54:34,800
get it out, get it out of your body.

990
00:54:34,869 --> 00:54:36,039
I will listen to you.

991
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:40,779
And you know, what I tend to do
with someone is to say, tell me

992
00:54:40,820 --> 00:54:42,029
the time they pissed you off.

993
00:54:42,999 --> 00:54:44,790
Tell me your favorite holiday yet.

994
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:46,080
Tell me what you love.

995
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:47,470
Don't tell me what you miss the most.

996
00:54:48,460 --> 00:54:49,360
Do you get what I'm saying?

997
00:54:49,900 --> 00:54:51,680
Talk to them about their person.

998
00:54:51,700 --> 00:54:54,190
They haven't, you know, people say,
Oh, I don't want to bring it up.

999
00:54:54,210 --> 00:54:54,920
I don't want to remind them.

1000
00:54:54,980 --> 00:54:55,840
They haven't forgotten.

1001
00:54:55,900 --> 00:54:56,509
They're dead.

1002
00:54:56,590 --> 00:54:57,289
Let me tell you.

1003
00:54:57,290 --> 00:54:58,589
Right?

1004
00:54:58,770 --> 00:55:03,330
And so by giving people the room, you
know, to talk about their person, I

1005
00:55:03,330 --> 00:55:06,910
wish we could have, that's another thing
we should get at birth, grief classes.

1006
00:55:07,079 --> 00:55:07,239
You know?

1007
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,020
Catherine: Yeah, it should
be taught at school.

1008
00:55:10,100 --> 00:55:10,680
Helen: Right?

1009
00:55:11,230 --> 00:55:16,660
How to be with a grieving person,
and what a grieving person needs.

1010
00:55:16,710 --> 00:55:19,770
And, you know, we so often say, let
me know if there's anything negative.

1011
00:55:20,300 --> 00:55:25,100
That person can hardly even think,
let alone know what they need or want,

1012
00:55:25,100 --> 00:55:30,355
you And the last thing they could do
sometimes is ask for something, you

1013
00:55:30,355 --> 00:55:32,885
know, so it's So given that, Helen,

1014
00:55:33,835 --> 00:55:37,305
Catherine: if you're on, if you are
someone who is, you know, because

1015
00:55:37,305 --> 00:55:41,394
there's always that awkwardness
at funerals and things like that,

1016
00:55:41,395 --> 00:55:42,945
that people don't know what to say.

1017
00:55:43,875 --> 00:55:48,455
In your experience, what would you,
what would you recommend people say or

1018
00:55:48,585 --> 00:55:51,195
don't say in those sort of scenarios?

1019
00:55:51,235 --> 00:55:56,970
Helen: Well, I think You know, we
so commonly say, I'm so sorry, and

1020
00:55:57,210 --> 00:55:59,880
I've heard people say, God, I wish
people would stop bloody saying

1021
00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:02,220
that they haven't done anything.

1022
00:56:02,900 --> 00:56:04,020
The person died.

1023
00:56:05,020 --> 00:56:10,870
So I think it's about, you know,
sometimes we trot out these things,

1024
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:16,550
but sometimes to say to someone, you
know, I can only imagine what this

1025
00:56:16,550 --> 00:56:21,260
is like for you, you know, tell me
what are you finding the hardest?

1026
00:56:22,350 --> 00:56:26,280
Like, talk to them like you care, right?

1027
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:27,880
Talk to them.

1028
00:56:28,270 --> 00:56:32,510
You know, also too, like, you know, I'm,
I'm going to be going shopping on Monday.

1029
00:56:32,980 --> 00:56:35,500
How about I drop by and I'll grab a list?

1030
00:56:37,229 --> 00:56:37,809
Do you get what I'm saying?

1031
00:56:37,820 --> 00:56:41,669
Like doing something active, you
know, saying, you know, and it's

1032
00:56:41,669 --> 00:56:43,260
really okay to say, you know what?

1033
00:56:43,630 --> 00:56:45,010
And I've done this
myself a number of times.

1034
00:56:45,060 --> 00:56:47,789
I don't even know what
to say to you right now.

1035
00:56:48,370 --> 00:56:54,760
But please just know I'm, I'm, my heart's
with you, you know, and, and, and it's

1036
00:56:54,760 --> 00:57:00,840
better to say that, that's more authentic
and truthful and it's okay not to know.

1037
00:57:01,839 --> 00:57:04,860
We try and cover up our ineffectiveness.

1038
00:57:04,860 --> 00:57:09,299
It's okay to say, I feel such, I just,
I feel I'm flailing at the moment.

1039
00:57:09,530 --> 00:57:11,300
I don't even know how to help you.

1040
00:57:11,300 --> 00:57:17,270
I want to, but please just know I'm
here and I care, you know, like give

1041
00:57:17,270 --> 00:57:20,595
them the gift of your Of your honesty.

1042
00:57:21,165 --> 00:57:22,455
Catherine: And vulnerability, I suppose.

1043
00:57:22,485 --> 00:57:22,665
And

1044
00:57:22,665 --> 00:57:25,985
Helen: vulnerability, because it opens the
door for them to be vulnerable, Catherine.

1045
00:57:26,655 --> 00:57:27,105
Catherine: Mm.

1046
00:57:27,285 --> 00:57:27,755
Helen: You know?

1047
00:57:28,675 --> 00:57:32,665
And I remember Sunday saying
to a young person, I can only

1048
00:57:32,665 --> 00:57:34,145
imagine this is pretty shit.

1049
00:57:34,705 --> 00:57:36,234
And he goes, oh, it's so shit.

1050
00:57:36,235 --> 00:57:37,874
I said, what's the shittiest?

1051
00:57:38,355 --> 00:57:39,324
And letting him talk.

1052
00:57:39,885 --> 00:57:40,355
Yeah.

1053
00:57:41,185 --> 00:57:41,685
And then shut up.

1054
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:44,790
Don't try fix it.

1055
00:57:45,410 --> 00:57:49,560
The thing is, and this is that thing
about giving up attachment to outcome,

1056
00:57:50,470 --> 00:57:54,390
you know, when we try and fix things,
we're implying something is broken.

1057
00:57:55,390 --> 00:57:57,810
Grieving is normal, organic, healthy.

1058
00:57:58,810 --> 00:57:59,770
No one's broken.

1059
00:58:00,429 --> 00:58:05,680
Even when a person is unable to
breathe and they're screaming their

1060
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:09,240
grief, wailing, they're not broken.

1061
00:58:09,980 --> 00:58:15,030
They're expressing their grief
in their way, just giving

1062
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:16,700
them the space to do that.

1063
00:58:17,690 --> 00:58:23,459
That's sometimes the most healing thing
there is to do is to get that off pain,

1064
00:58:23,469 --> 00:58:29,080
that, that, that ball of energy out
of your body and out of your mouth.

1065
00:58:30,005 --> 00:58:34,485
It's a gift to give someone, to
be able to hold space for them

1066
00:58:34,485 --> 00:58:35,655
and let them be where they are.

1067
00:58:35,685 --> 00:58:38,325
Sometimes people are enraged.

1068
00:58:39,324 --> 00:58:42,544
I remember a woman said to me
once, her husband died suddenly,

1069
00:58:42,574 --> 00:58:46,005
unexpectedly, while away on a holiday.

1070
00:58:47,004 --> 00:58:49,364
She said, I'm so angry with him.

1071
00:58:49,365 --> 00:58:51,274
She said, if he wasn't
dead, I'd bloody kill him.

1072
00:58:52,365 --> 00:58:52,655
both: So what

1073
00:58:52,655 --> 00:58:53,755
Helen: are you angriest about?

1074
00:58:54,775 --> 00:58:59,345
Well, he left me with all this
mess and meh I'd just let it go.

1075
00:58:59,965 --> 00:59:00,725
Do you get what I'm saying?

1076
00:59:00,894 --> 00:59:02,855
Rather than, oh, there there, do you know?

1077
00:59:03,695 --> 00:59:05,835
Like, let people have their responses.

1078
00:59:05,875 --> 00:59:06,725
It's healthy.

1079
00:59:06,744 --> 00:59:08,064
It's organic, you know?

1080
00:59:08,855 --> 00:59:09,225
Yeah.

1081
00:59:10,085 --> 00:59:12,815
I think another thing too, you
said about what not to say.

1082
00:59:13,795 --> 00:59:14,935
Oh, gosh.

1083
00:59:14,965 --> 00:59:18,605
One of the things that is my,
one of my pet struggles is when

1084
00:59:18,605 --> 00:59:21,225
it's around the death of a child.

1085
00:59:21,225 --> 00:59:21,394
Oh, gosh.

1086
00:59:22,355 --> 00:59:26,515
And people say very silly things
sometimes, like, Oh, don't

1087
00:59:26,515 --> 00:59:27,925
worry, you'll have another one.

1088
00:59:28,585 --> 00:59:29,955
Person had a twin die.

1089
00:59:30,145 --> 00:59:31,094
Well, at least you've got

1090
00:59:31,094 --> 00:59:31,394
both: one.

1091
00:59:32,375 --> 00:59:35,475
Helen: You know, like, please,
people, come on, you know.

1092
00:59:35,564 --> 00:59:39,795
Better off saying nothing
than those sort of platitudes.

1093
00:59:40,045 --> 00:59:42,404
Or when someone aged has died.

1094
00:59:42,675 --> 00:59:44,085
Well, they had a good innings.

1095
00:59:44,875 --> 00:59:46,365
Like, they deserve to die now.

1096
00:59:46,875 --> 00:59:47,715
You know, come on.

1097
00:59:48,300 --> 00:59:52,370
You know, so it's just about
language is really critical.

1098
00:59:52,590 --> 00:59:53,980
Language is really critical.

1099
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:54,980
Yeah.

1100
00:59:55,020 --> 00:59:59,150
Catherine: We, we know of one story
where someone describes someone

1101
00:59:59,150 --> 01:00:04,059
as, oh, well, we lost, you know,
the father and the poor woman.

1102
01:00:05,290 --> 01:00:08,420
The poor woman suffered from
dementia and said, well, where is he?

1103
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:09,210
Right.

1104
01:00:09,260 --> 01:00:13,979
And that just sets up for more
explanation and confusion and

1105
01:00:14,450 --> 01:00:15,799
Helen: Yeah, absolutely.

1106
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:19,339
And another thing is telling the
children they've gone to sleep, telling

1107
01:00:19,339 --> 01:00:21,070
children their grandpa's gone to sleep.

1108
01:00:21,775 --> 01:00:22,525
He's having a long sleep.

1109
01:00:22,635 --> 01:00:24,915
No, the kids, kids become
frightened of going to sleep.

1110
01:00:25,925 --> 01:00:27,005
Yeah, of course.

1111
01:00:27,325 --> 01:00:28,365
Tell them the truth.

1112
01:00:28,375 --> 01:00:32,324
Children, children, please
tell children the truth.

1113
01:00:32,645 --> 01:00:36,235
The reason there's so many messed up
adults around death and dying is because

1114
01:00:36,235 --> 01:00:40,315
they were messed up as children by adults
thinking they needed to protect them.

1115
01:00:41,015 --> 01:00:41,664
Think about it.

1116
01:00:41,675 --> 01:00:44,245
Children are organically curious.

1117
01:00:44,815 --> 01:00:45,225
both: Yeah.

1118
01:00:45,345 --> 01:00:46,105
Helen: I see them.

1119
01:00:46,375 --> 01:00:48,395
They'll be around a deceased person.

1120
01:00:48,395 --> 01:00:49,585
They're coming to visit that person.

1121
01:00:49,585 --> 01:00:52,295
They're doing vigil and they'll be
touching and going, why is he cold?

1122
01:00:53,285 --> 01:00:53,585
Catherine: Yeah,

1123
01:00:53,745 --> 01:00:54,145
Helen: right.

1124
01:00:54,245 --> 01:00:55,915
Catherine: And children
see everything too.

1125
01:00:56,165 --> 01:00:56,655
They do.

1126
01:00:57,085 --> 01:00:57,465
And they

1127
01:00:57,465 --> 01:00:59,855
Helen: know when we're
being weird, you know.

1128
01:00:59,855 --> 01:01:01,214
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1129
01:01:01,214 --> 01:01:03,335
They, they are very good detectors.

1130
01:01:03,594 --> 01:01:05,205
They are very good detectors.

1131
01:01:05,205 --> 01:01:09,124
And, you know, and I, I want to just
say this, you know, that in my opinion,

1132
01:01:09,164 --> 01:01:14,524
there is no age too young for a child
to be in the presence of a sick person.

1133
01:01:15,010 --> 01:01:20,390
A dying person, a dead person, or
at a funeral, no age too young.

1134
01:01:20,450 --> 01:01:22,660
It is a normal part of life.

1135
01:01:22,660 --> 01:01:25,630
You know, in the West, I often talk
about, Catherine, in the West we

1136
01:01:25,630 --> 01:01:27,400
live like it's life versus death.

1137
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:29,580
But here's the truth of that.

1138
01:01:30,139 --> 01:01:32,270
Death isn't the opposite of life.

1139
01:01:33,260 --> 01:01:34,589
Death is the opposite of birth.

1140
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,570
And birth and death are parts of a life.

1141
01:01:39,570 --> 01:01:41,170
You can't be born and not die.

1142
01:01:41,380 --> 01:01:42,890
It just, the sum doesn't add up.

1143
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:44,350
both: That's true.

1144
01:01:44,350 --> 01:01:47,690
Helen: So yeah, so it's really
about, we talk at Preparing the

1145
01:01:47,690 --> 01:01:49,040
Way about the circle of life.

1146
01:01:49,060 --> 01:01:50,650
We're focusing on life here.

1147
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:54,840
And on that 10 stages,
death is about number six.

1148
01:01:55,545 --> 01:01:57,225
It's not the end of anything.

1149
01:01:57,835 --> 01:02:01,545
This whole journey is only
halfway through for most of the

1150
01:02:01,545 --> 01:02:02,845
people still in the journey.

1151
01:02:03,855 --> 01:02:06,505
And who knows, the deceased
person probably on another

1152
01:02:06,505 --> 01:02:07,865
journey too in some other realm.

1153
01:02:08,175 --> 01:02:08,705
Who knows?

1154
01:02:08,855 --> 01:02:09,505
Not going to go there.

1155
01:02:09,534 --> 01:02:10,845
But do you know what I'm saying?

1156
01:02:10,895 --> 01:02:14,105
Like it's, there's so much more to this.

1157
01:02:14,494 --> 01:02:18,195
And if we're willing to allow the
vulnerability and the experience,

1158
01:02:18,195 --> 01:02:21,745
it's a beautiful thing to be a
part of, even when it's messy.

1159
01:02:22,535 --> 01:02:23,865
Because it's real.

1160
01:02:24,275 --> 01:02:26,365
There's nothing more
authentic and truthful.

1161
01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:27,630
Catherine: Yeah.

1162
01:02:28,570 --> 01:02:31,420
I can't thank you enough for
being with us today, Helen.

1163
01:02:31,430 --> 01:02:34,320
Is there anything else
that you'd like to share?

1164
01:02:35,310 --> 01:02:38,350
Helen: Oh, have the conversations.

1165
01:02:38,489 --> 01:02:39,520
Talk to your people.

1166
01:02:40,510 --> 01:02:42,970
Talk about what you want,
what your preferences are.

1167
01:02:42,970 --> 01:02:45,760
We don't always get everything we want.

1168
01:02:45,890 --> 01:02:52,030
You know, one of the things I, we, again,
back to language that I struggle with is

1169
01:02:52,030 --> 01:02:54,010
this term trying to have a good death.

1170
01:02:54,050 --> 01:02:56,800
We're going to have a good death
because that implies there's bad death.

1171
01:02:57,800 --> 01:02:59,269
Consider there's just death.

1172
01:03:00,220 --> 01:03:02,830
And what are your
preferences for your death?

1173
01:03:03,330 --> 01:03:06,540
And what can you put in
place now to have that done?

1174
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:08,610
Because it's a gift
you'll give your family.

1175
01:03:09,330 --> 01:03:12,920
They'll never be able to say thank you
for it, but it is a gift you'll give them.

1176
01:03:13,460 --> 01:03:13,800
Yeah.

1177
01:03:14,290 --> 01:03:15,010
Thank you, Catherine.

1178
01:03:15,010 --> 01:03:16,550
It's been amazing to talk to you.

1179
01:03:16,905 --> 01:03:17,305
Loved it.

1180
01:03:17,785 --> 01:03:21,195
Catherine: That's, that's a really
beautiful thought to, to end on.

1181
01:03:21,195 --> 01:03:22,215
Thank you so much, Helen.

1182
01:03:22,405 --> 01:03:22,495
You're welcome.

1183
01:03:22,565 --> 01:03:23,615
I really appreciate it.

1184
01:03:24,045 --> 01:03:24,605
Thank you.

1185
01:03:27,055 --> 01:03:30,465
We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,

1186
01:03:30,784 --> 01:03:32,364
brought to you by Critical Info.

1187
01:03:33,294 --> 01:03:37,565
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new, or were touched by a story you

1188
01:03:37,565 --> 01:03:39,520
heard, We'd love for you to let us know.

1189
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:43,270
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1190
01:03:43,270 --> 01:03:45,010
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1191
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:49,330
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1192
01:03:49,330 --> 01:03:51,070
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1193
01:03:51,340 --> 01:03:52,690
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1194
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:53,830
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1195
01:03:53,830 --> 01:03:57,760
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1196
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:03,960
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