After the Worst Has Happened: Tales From a Funeral Director, Richard Gosling
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About this episode
In this episode, we dive into the journey of Richard Gosling—a man who left the safe world of civil service to become a funeral director, driven by a desire to connect with others on the deepest level. Join us as Richard shares stories of courage, unexpected life changes, and how facing death can bring new appreciation to life.
Richard Gosling didn’t follow a conventional path to become a funeral director. His journey took root after experiencing his own family’s health crises and realising the vital role that those who manage death play in the lives of the grieving. With humour and insight, Richard recounts his career shift and why he felt the need to serve people in their most vulnerable moments.
Through Richard's stories, we uncover what goes on behind the scenes in a funeral home. From coaxing out meaningful details to creating unique rituals, Richard reminds us that every goodbye is an opportunity to celebrate a life. He also shares his thoughts on why we need to stop shying away from conversations about death and instead embrace them as part of our human experience.
Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine
Show notes
Guest Bio
The author of After the Worst has Happened and a Funeral Director
Today, we are speaking with Richard Gosling, the author of After the Worst has Happened.
Tales from a funeral director on the lighter side of death. (published 25 Jun 2024)
Summary
Highlights:
- Richard’s path from civil service to funeral director, sparked by personal family experiences
- The surprising and rewarding challenges in helping families honour their loved ones
- How funeral directors balance empathy with emotional boundaries for self-care
- Insights into voluntary assisted dying and supporting families through that experience
- The power of rituals—religious or otherwise—in easing the grieving process
- Richard's advice on how to take the time to properly honour and remember those we’ve lost
- Encouragement to openly discuss death and capture loved ones’ stories while they're still with us
Transcript
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Lessons it's taught me very much is try not to sweat the small stuff.
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My daughter's HSC is coming irrespective of how she does. She's got a whole life ahead of her.
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My son's HSC was a couple of years ago. It wasn't wildly successful,
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but he's at TAF ... Read More
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Lessons it's taught me very much is try not to sweat the small stuff.
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My daughter's HSC is coming irrespective of how she does. She's got a whole life ahead of her.
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My son's HSC was a couple of years ago. It wasn't wildly successful,
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but he's at TAFE now studying nursing.
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The more you get tied up about things that may or may not happen,
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the more you miss things that are happening right now.
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So I do try to be as positive as I can, to get as much humour into the world as I can.
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Just, yeah, if you can't avoid the small stuff, it's best avoided.
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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging open conversations about
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dying and the death of a loved one.
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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder of Critical Info, and I'm helping to
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bring your stories of death back to life.
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Because while you may not be ready to die, at least you can be prepared.
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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges the lands of the Kulin Nations and recognises
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their connection to land, sea and community.
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We pay our respects to their elders, past, present and emerging and extend that
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respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and First Nation peoples around the globe.
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Hey listeners, just a quick heads up that the audio in this episode isn't quite
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up to our usual standards due to a few tech hiccups, but the conversation is way too good to miss.
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We're sure you'll get so much out of this, so thank you for sticking with us.
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Today we are speaking with richard bosby the author of after the worst has happened,
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tales from a funeral director on the wider side of there i'm really looking
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forward to this conversation richard i have read the book and i can't wait to
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have more in-depth chat with you,
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welcome to the podcast thank you it's very lovely to be here,
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now tell me you transitioned from a different career to a funeral director not
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a career move most people do can you tell me what motivated that,
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there'd always been a background fascination with
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with those people i had an early kind of interface with working funerals when
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i was around 20 21 but it was a disastrous brief flirtation with that side of
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work and it didn't pan out and it shouldn't have panned out at that age because
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I had the emotional depth of a teacup you know just was never going to be good.
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Later in life while I was working as a civil servant my daughter had a few health crises.
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She we found out she had a heart condition and then
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the day after we found out she had a massive third degree
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burn injury on both arms and that
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took us to some very dark corners some
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stressful places places where you're in the best
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hands in the world pediatric nurses burns nurses and
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surgeons heart surgeons all amazing but
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for us as parents so overwhelming you
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know we were facing an avalanche while drowning while fleeing
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and having this tenacious little 18
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month old child going through this stuff and a
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lot of it left emotional scars my
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daughter has the physical ago as I'm riddled with the
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emotional ones but during the
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course of that a couple of well-meaning and
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ill-equipped people said to me what are you going to do if she dies and obviously
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chased that conversation away and threw them out and just wasn't even facing
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it but the thought didn't go away that for you know for these nurses for these
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doctors treating my daughter was their day job it It was their usual,
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and I was so glad they were there.
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But for someone else, their usual job was dealing with the death of a child
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or a husband or a sibling or a parent, and I couldn't shake off the idea of those people.
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So when the opportunity came for voluntary redundancy and a job that paid me
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well and was full of lovely people but bored the life out of me,
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I jumped at it, And my wife said, look, go for the job that you want rather
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than, you know, something that's going to buy us three houses and a yacht.
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And honestly, just completely started over.
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Found a funeral home, basically begged them for a job. Said,
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you know, please, start me down there.
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I'll polish the floor. I'll do whatever.
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And honestly, from day one, it just felt like where I should be.
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And at what age were you and also what stage were you in your life to make such
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a change where you no longer had that security and you were just going ahead and jumping in?
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I took the voluntary redundancy at 39.
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It was not a wildly successful civil service career, But if you're in the civil
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service, you're in the belly of a big beast that's going to keep you there for
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as long as you want to stay.
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And you'll gradually ascend purely by chronology. You'll kind of bubble up.
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Annual pay raise, very secure, very good environment to be in.
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Just not fulfilling whatever need it was I had in the back of my head.
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So 39, I left that line of work.
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And with the redundancy, I thought I'll have a backup plan. Maybe I'll go back
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into IT training because I used to do that.
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So I got myself a Cert IV in that. But the whole time I was just thinking I
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really want to try funerals.
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So I did some temping work, just carrying coffins for funeral homes.
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I bizarrely almost was stalking my way around cemeteries trying to find work.
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And, yeah, I was pretty determined with the idea that I knew nothing but had
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this utter desire to know more, to see where I could fit in that world.
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And so, going through that process, you were sort of carrying the odd coffin.
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I never realised you could tempt doing no sorts of roles.
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Tell me about how I sort of moved
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on from the occasional experience to something more of a career for you?
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Well, I obviously eventually landed a job with one funeral home.
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It didn't play out. It was three months of working for them.
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And for this reason or that reason, mostly geography, I was living about an
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hour and a half away from that place.
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They said, look, we don't feel this is going to work, but there's a place near you.
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They're not advertising at the moment, but we know they need someone.
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And we'll have a chat with them, but we're going to end ties with you.
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And I thought, oh, you know, this is what I want. And I was deluding myself,
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driving an hour and a half to work every day or commuting like that.
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It wasn't sustainable, but I wanted to be in there.
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So fortunately it played out that this local funeral home made space for me.
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They didn't directly have space, but they took me on as an extra hand downstairs,
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starting from scratch, you know.
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This is how you put gloves on. This is how you make sure you're sanitized after a transfer.
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It was an uphill climb from day one, but a rewarding one, yeah.
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Every day still is, even after 10 years, something new, something I've not seen,
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heard or done before, a church I've never been to before. It's fascinating.
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And tell me, what do you think is it that drove you to actually really want this?
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Like 10 years on, what is it that you get out of the role that you go,
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yeah, that's what I can put my finger on, that's what I was after to fulfil?
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When I was in the civil service, I obviously had my in-tray.
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It would be there on a Monday and I'd have to work through it.
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And it was done and there was a sense of completion, but also a sense of, oh, well.
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In the whole time I've been at funerals, even working in funerals,
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every Friday I get to the end of a week and I'm emotionally affected.
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I'm creatively affected because some of the workarounds, the think-arounds,
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the embellishment on a funeral we'll do in certain instances for families.
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It takes a lot of imagination at times. The simple act of crisis management on a funeral,
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if a mourner's becoming a little bit angry or combative with someone else and
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you're trying to settle the waters but keep everything calm,
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for the whole week you're on almost this kind of edge of caffeinated adrenaline
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anxiety, but at the same time trying to keep things still,
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calm, respectful,
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And as you would want your own family's funeral to be, there's always that thought
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in the back of your head, I'm doing this because the person who's passed away
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for them is their most important person.
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And, you know, I've got my most important people and I want their families to
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feel as cared for as I'd want my family to feel.
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I'm interested, when you're talking, it sounds like it's the role of serving
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others. Would that be the right thing you're saying?
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And it's, in some senses, yes, it's also the families, you get a minute or so
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to gain their trust when you first meet them as an arranger,
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as a conductor of funerals.
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But once you do, they open up in ways that are quite magical,
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the stories you hear about their father, mother, brother, and so on.
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And these are stories that most people don't get to hear. It's like almost working
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in a museum and every day I see a new exhibit that is so fascinating and so
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rich and you think there's a book in that person, there's a book in that person, there's all these.
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I took time to write my book. Most people don't. And I've heard stories about
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some grandparents through World War II and Jewish families and their escapes
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from the Holocaust, how wives met their husbands and so on.
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They're the most magical things in the world to hear. It's so rare that someone
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will sit down with anger or frustration with the deceased person.
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It's mostly love, fascination, and a will to just tell someone these stories.
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And, you know, I'm not going to share them. I'm not going to blast them all over the planet.
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But just to be the person who sits there and hears these things and sees the
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delight and love people have in talking about their dead father,
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dead grandfather, and so on, And it's a rare privilege to sit in the spaces we go to.
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And tell me about their creative side.
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When you're honouring someone and you're working with the family,
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tell me how many ways or some examples in which you've used that creative side of your brain.
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Well, we always say to families, families say, you know, I don't know what can
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be done at a time like this.
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And we say, well, pretty much anything except bringing the person back.
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You know, that's the one thing regrettably we can't do.
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If it's a younger person, the grief is going to be far, far different.
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If it's a suicide case, again, very, very different.
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So with those, we really encourage that people kind of get up and physically
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be part of that grief, be it signing a coffin or signing paper boards so the
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families have got messages to keep.
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Encouraging, you know, if there is someone in the family who has a musical skill
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or a poetic skill who feels they can at that time be a part of this.
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The funeral's one moment, one hour, and we say to family, is this going to pass
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like that? It'll just be gone.
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So the more personality, the more we can tease out that makes that person as
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unique as they are because so often we hear on the radio, you know,
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a funeral is an opening song, a eulogy, a slideshow,
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a committal, and then you're out and you're at the canteen.
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And we try not – sometimes it is that, but we try if there is something we can
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tease out, if there's a love of nature or, you know, a green burial.
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We had a service with a Catholic priest, a stand-up comedian,
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and a Buddhist monk once.
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And the family said, look, I don't think we can do this. I said, well, we can try.
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And so I found a priest who was willing and celebrant who I knew had a history
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in stand-up comedy and a Buddhist monk who had no qualms.
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You know, they were willing to gel that together. Yeah.
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And it was beautiful, absolutely beautiful. And what do you think that people
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find as some of the most challenging things when organising someone's funeral for a loved one?
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People feel an immense weight of pressure of time.
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From the minute someone dies, there's that dreadful moment the first minute
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after their death, the first 10 minutes, the first hour where this distance is growing.
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But from the moment they call a funeral home, they're often compelled to rush.
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And you can hear it in their voices often that they're just picturing,
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and I don't mean to be graphic, but grandmother decaying somewhere or,
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you know, husband decaying.
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And we've really got to, or I say to them very early on, there isn't a hurry. We can slow right down.
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Now, if you're members of the Jewish faith, we'll go as quickly as we can because
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they've got that wonderful tradition that has told them we do this fast,
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We do this anonymously, but with community.
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But in other instances, we slow down.
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Often a family will call us on Monday and a funeral is on Friday,
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which means within three days they're writing eulogies, gathering photos, doing so many things.
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We spend nine months preparing for birth, but we'll race to get to a funeral.
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And I understand it hurts. Every part of that week hurts.
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But i encourage them to slow down i encourage
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them you don't need to rush one family went to hawaii to grieve came back five
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weeks later and then we had the funeral now that's a gift of wealth if you can
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afford to do that your grieving is going to be a lot more comfortable but i
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say to families you know we've had some families pause five weeks ten weeks,
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whatever is going to work you know if you need time you've got to look after
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yourself too so take the time.
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And when you're talking about looking after yourself, you mentioned earlier
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that at the end of the week you can be emotionally affected.
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I assume that can be both positive and negative.
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Yeah. How do you carve out time for yourself and put some personal boundaries
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in when you're dealing with grief?
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Well, again, it's a benefit of ageing. My kids are about to turn 19 and 17,
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so they're quite autonomous.
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Or the VHSC's looming from my daughter.
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But my wife and I got a dog, a couple of years. It's a family's dog, but mostly my wife's.
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Got a dog. We try and go out 5 a.m. every day and walk the dog.
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Try. Winter's just ending now, so we're just getting back into that.
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And that gives us both, we don't necessarily talk, but just three kilometres,
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four kilometres of fresh air and a happy dog, and that starts your day okay.
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When it comes to the weekend now i'm not doing book
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week costumes and geography assignments and
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all the things that i swear we didn't do when i was
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in school now it's my
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wife's marking because she's a english teacher my daughter's studying for the
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hfc my son lives in the garage so i don't see much of him so i'll do the food
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shop plan the following week and then just there's an armchair by the windows
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in my lounge i'll always have a book somewhere nearby and i say right i'm going
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to put on this album, I'm going to sit in that chair,
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I'm going to read one page and fall asleep or I'm going to read two pages or
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gallop through the book, but I just carve out time just to be still,
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just to kind of sit on the raft in my own lake and just whatever I need to feel,
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feel, whatever I need to process, process, but just to be still.
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It's a nice thing to do.
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I really like that imagery that I have in my head now if you'd be on a legal
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act in your own little lake.
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I like that. Yeah.
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And how do you see the role of funeral directors in helping people confront,
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you know, their fear of death or their own mortality?
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It's an interesting one and it's changing at the minute now we have voluntary assisted death.
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I think since November last year, all states in Australia have legalised that.
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So we're starting to speak to families now who know exactly when mum is going to die.
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We get these first calls. My mother will die Wednesday of next week at 9.30 in the morning.
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Totally different kind of what we call a first call where a family first reach out.
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But as soon as we started getting those calls, I spoke to our grief support
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network and said, you know, this is new for us. Normally we get mum died last night.
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Now it's mum's going to die next week. How do we support them?
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Because we used to, with mum having died in the past, we know the family will
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be in shock or denial or all of those normal things that we're used to confronting.
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But with voluntary death, the family's almost got a week's additional grief
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because they know minute by minute they're getting closer.
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But it's also what their mother wants to do. So they're achieving that,
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achieving the goal that they've been fighting for.
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And the psychologists that we work with told me the strange
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thing is within a day or two of the voluntary death the families
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become quite angry they become viscerally furious so I've been telling each
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family I've worked with that may not happen to you but in our experience a day
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or so after the death of mom or dad you're going to become irrationally angry
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and they've all said oh that's not going to happen.
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I know, but just warn your husband, your brother, your children,
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that if you just bite their heads off because a cloud goes over the sun,
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it's not them. It's just grief because you've been fighting for so long to help mum.
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And now all of that emotion, all of that effort has finished, but you're still here.
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So just warn them about that rage.
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And most of the families have come back and said, oh, I really did get that
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fury. I did get that rage.
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So in in supporting families in helping them
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confront what we all try and avoid we all
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know it's coming from that rare moment in
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childhood where we suddenly understand a grandparent or a pet dies and we think
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oh that'll be me one day but we try and try not to look at it because every
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other horizon's nicer but i do try and talk to families about you know just
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explore how you're feeling about this.
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I'm not a grief counsellor. I'm not a psychiatrist or anything like that.
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But every emotion you're feeling is correct.
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If you're feeling joyful that they had a long and happy life, then explore that.
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It's very much like probing where a sore tooth was. And, you know, it...
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Look at it from all sides. Don't challenge or don't blame yourself for anything.
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You had something beautiful. It's now past, but just feel the shape of it all.
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It's a very different world to explore when someone becomes past tense to us.
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Yes, and some of the grief that you were referring to is that anticipatory grief
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of knowing that that's going to happen,
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which people sometimes experience with that life-limiting in the case of voluntary assisted dying.
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And I know that in Victoria, Dying
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with Victoria have actually worked with Griefline to develop support groups
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for families specifically around voluntary assisted dying because of that grief
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is quite different to any other sort of experience.
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So it's interesting that you've also noticed that as well.
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And tell me, throughout the ages, we've always had ritual associated with death.
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When you see ritual involved, how do you think that plays in the grieving process,
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how people deal with the deaths. What's been your experience?
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Tradition and ritual does make things a lot easier.
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For a good Catholic family, they've already been to a wealth of Catholic funerals.
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They know the structure, the shape of what to expect for mum.
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And for a Jewish family, there's millennia of tradition and they know they're
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going to fall into the routine being of that tradition, the comfort,
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the structure of that tradition.
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So the point where we don't know what to do, those religious.
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Services, those structured approaches are a real benefit because we know you're
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going to have opening prayers. We know we're going to be at the synagogue going quite quickly.
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And the families know that the person, the rabbi they're dealing with,
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the priests they're dealing with, is part of a massive history that's all been
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prepared to help with weddings, with births, and with deaths.
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And I think as atheists, I mean, I'm an atheist who goes to church every day,
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so it's a truly wonderful situation to be in.
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But as atheists, we often don't know how to celebrate, how to memorialize,
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how to commemorate someone because, you know, I'm going to have a funeral.
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I'm not going to have an opening prayer. What am I going to do?
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How am I going to fill this void where Catholicism, Anglicanism,
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Hinduism and Judaism all have a ready-built structure.
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So for those that are fortunate enough to be faithful, and I envy them,
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I would love to be, they have this embrace waiting for when a death happens.
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They have experience, history, and ritual waiting to guide them through and
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it's all pressure relief valves.
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So part of the funeral mass is that pressure release. Here's everyone who loves
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you, all saying the same hymns, and you can let it out.
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And the Jewish service hears everyone who loves you with these thousands of
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year old hymns or services, let it all out. And there's all these alms around you.
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So yeah, the structure and history of these things is, and you see it work its
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magic at the funeral, where people know, okay, I've been here before,
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but now I'm here for my parent.
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It's very powerful.
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And with the role of ritual outside a religious context,
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how have you seen that develop or have you seen that develop with any trends
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over the 10 years you've been involved?
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Oh, that's a tricky question.
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So now I've seen many celebrants, civil celebrants, doing the non-religious
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services, and they all kind of hinge on a familiar structure,
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the same opening but without prayer,
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a committal of some kind but without a nod to a deity.
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A lot of them get quite spiritual.
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But what I have seen, certainly in the last five or six years,
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because every one of us has got a mobile phone and grandchildren are rife with mobile phones.
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Is there's often so much footage of, audio of the deceased that we're seeing
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a lot more of the deceased themselves at a funeral service.
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I had a lovely service the other day where the grandson had filmed his mum making banana bread.
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And so part of the funeral was for 10 minutes we watched this beautifully edited
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video of her talking through banana bread and him asking her questions about
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her life while she made the dough and put it in the oven,
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and it was like he'd tricked her into giving her her own eulogy.
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I don't think there was anything as malevolent of that, but all of this footage,
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all of these photos, all of this audio exists, and so we do see a great deal more.
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More than just the 35 images of Frank Sinatra's slideshows now.
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We see a lot more video footage, a lot more audio, and it does,
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like my own grandfather recorded his own eulogy, So his funeral was just us
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pressing play on a cassette deck and then he spoke through the whole thing.
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So it's nice to see...
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The deceased more present at their own services now in terms of ones that are away from the church.
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It's good to see that AV flash, that kind of, there is grandma,
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she's talking directly to us.
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So many of these now end with grandma singing or dancing at a New Year's Eve party.
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Yeah, the rise of mobile phones has been quite a thing, quite an effect.
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And just on that, you mentioned committal. Like, for someone who's unfamiliar,
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what does the committal involve?
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The committal is that terrible moment where it is time to say goodbye.
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It's the end of the service.
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And whenever a family says to us, oh, we don't need to celebrate,
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we don't need a priest, we're going to do it ourselves.
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And I say, well, that's truly great, and I promise you'll be great at the beginning.
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You'll be fabulous at the eulogies and any poems or readings.
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But at the end, you've got to close this thing off. you've got to say,
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this is time to say goodbye.
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This is the last time we're going to be in a room with grandma, with mum.
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We're all leaving the chapel now. So we encourage them to think,
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you know, if you're going to do things yourself, maybe think about invite everyone
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up to take a flower from the coffin or everyone come up and just touch the coffin.
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Just put that full stop on the sentence of the relationship with that person.
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But the committal is the funeral service is over now. The rest of us are stepping
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on. This life is over now.
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So, yeah, it's, again, can be beautiful, but for the religious people,
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it's already structured.
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It comes with the smoke and the holy water and the blessing and so on.
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For the atheists out there trying to do their best, it's kind of,
364
00:27:36,570 --> 00:27:39,430
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oh, I need to say something here.
365
00:27:41,010 --> 00:27:49,030
highlight & episode:
And just on that, because with the increase of cremation as an option for people
366
00:27:49,030 --> 00:27:50,550
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saying abide at their loved ones.
367
00:27:51,530 --> 00:27:56,470
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Tell me a little bit about, I believe you've had the circumstances to where
368
00:27:56,470 --> 00:28:02,030
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people have felt like a service isn't enough, they need to go a step further.
369
00:28:02,990 --> 00:28:05,910
highlight & episode:
What has your role been in those scenarios?
370
00:28:07,130 --> 00:28:09,950
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A step further? We have some people
371
00:28:09,950 --> 00:28:14,190
highlight & episode:
want to see the coffin all the way through to the point of going in.
372
00:28:14,730 --> 00:28:18,470
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Yeah. I try and discourage that because it's a very mechanical,
373
00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:21,110
highlight & episode:
very swift, very abrupt moment.
374
00:28:22,450 --> 00:28:27,470
highlight & episode:
But if a family are determined, a young lady lost her husband,
375
00:28:27,650 --> 00:28:32,050
highlight & episode:
he had back pain, went in for a checkup with his doctor, and by the end of the
376
00:28:32,050 --> 00:28:36,270
highlight & episode:
following day, an MRI had shown tumours all up his spine.
377
00:28:36,770 --> 00:28:41,370
highlight & episode:
Four weeks later, he was gone. So it was so quick in every respect.
378
00:28:41,950 --> 00:28:46,450
highlight & episode:
And when we had the funeral for him, his parents, still back in France,
379
00:28:47,470 --> 00:28:51,790
highlight & episode:
wanted closure themselves, so I ended up walking her through to the back of
380
00:28:51,790 --> 00:28:56,110
highlight & episode:
the crematorium to see the coffin go in while she was holding up an iPad so
381
00:28:56,110 --> 00:28:57,910
highlight & episode:
the parents could see the coffin go in.
382
00:28:59,170 --> 00:29:04,290
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And it's very industrial. It's very stainless steel. It's intimidating.
383
00:29:05,250 --> 00:29:13,050
highlight & episode:
The crematoriums try and soften it, but I know for some Chinese families it's an essential.
384
00:29:13,050 --> 00:29:17,330
highlight & episode:
I try and counsel families against it, but if they're adamant,
385
00:29:18,150 --> 00:29:20,410
highlight & episode:
we warn this is going to be swift.
386
00:29:21,490 --> 00:29:25,770
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You know, the glass is going to clear or the curtains will come back and then
387
00:29:25,770 --> 00:29:30,930
highlight & episode:
it will be a shutter will come up and then a clunk and a thrust as the coffin goes through.
388
00:29:31,510 --> 00:29:38,830
highlight & episode:
But for some, they have to see things right to that final punctuation mark.
389
00:29:39,410 --> 00:29:45,150
highlight & episode:
But certainly some people speak of it, you know, romantically I want to see mum through.
390
00:29:45,530 --> 00:29:49,970
highlight & episode:
I try and dispel that idea without being too graphic or blunt to them.
391
00:29:50,410 --> 00:29:54,990
highlight & episode:
It's not going to be what you think. It's going to be quite industrial.
392
00:29:55,850 --> 00:30:01,270
highlight & episode:
Now, over time, hopefully it'll soften up more, but maybe in the 40 or 50 I've
393
00:30:01,270 --> 00:30:05,710
highlight & episode:
seen over the last 10 years, I've only really seen two families come away from
394
00:30:05,710 --> 00:30:07,530
highlight & episode:
that going, oh, I'm glad we did this.
395
00:30:09,253 --> 00:30:14,333
highlight & episode:
It's good that you explain the process because people can make that informed
396
00:30:14,333 --> 00:30:19,193
highlight & episode:
decision about whether that's something that they feel that they really need
397
00:30:19,193 --> 00:30:22,313
highlight & episode:
to go through or just you explaining it.
398
00:30:25,013 --> 00:30:28,473
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Oh, to go in with naivety, I think is unwise.
399
00:30:29,433 --> 00:30:33,653
highlight & episode:
Whatever we can explain to a family, we will. From the moment we pick their
400
00:30:33,653 --> 00:30:38,613
highlight & episode:
mum or dad or whomever up, they don't know what's going on. so I try and make
401
00:30:38,613 --> 00:30:40,833
highlight & episode:
sure they do know what's going on.
402
00:30:41,253 --> 00:30:45,353
highlight & episode:
Mum's safely with us. Yes, she is in refrigerated storage. No,
403
00:30:45,493 --> 00:30:48,053
highlight & episode:
we don't need to embalm unless we're going to a vault.
404
00:30:48,573 --> 00:30:52,933
highlight & episode:
People have all these words that they don't really know how they fit together.
405
00:30:54,413 --> 00:30:58,513
highlight & episode:
So without sitting them down and giving them a kind of 101 on funerals,
406
00:30:58,653 --> 00:31:01,493
highlight & episode:
we just try and explain each step.
407
00:31:01,713 --> 00:31:07,153
highlight & episode:
For people who are unfamiliar, what do you find are some of the greatest misconceptions?
408
00:31:08,113 --> 00:31:15,233
highlight & episode:
About funeral, burial, really a whole process. What are people confused about?
409
00:31:16,473 --> 00:31:21,173
highlight & episode:
The very first thing is, as I mentioned earlier, is speed. They all feel they've got a sprint.
410
00:31:21,793 --> 00:31:26,333
highlight & episode:
And so we slow them down there. They'll often then say to us,
411
00:31:26,473 --> 00:31:30,373
highlight & episode:
we'll ask them on the first call now, is mum for burial or cremation?
412
00:31:30,973 --> 00:31:33,653
highlight & episode:
Oh, we haven't decided yet. And so we'll say, look,
413
00:31:33,813 --> 00:31:37,113
highlight & episode:
if you don't already own a grave, you're probably
414
00:31:37,113 --> 00:31:40,093
highlight & episode:
looking 15 to 20 000 for a grave
415
00:31:40,093 --> 00:31:43,293
highlight & episode:
in the sydney area cheaper the
416
00:31:43,293 --> 00:31:46,153
highlight & episode:
further out you go but remember if you're getting a grave you're going
417
00:31:46,153 --> 00:31:48,753
highlight & episode:
to want to visit mum and as soon as you
418
00:31:48,753 --> 00:31:52,033
highlight & episode:
say 15 to 20 000 you'll hear that flick switch
419
00:31:52,033 --> 00:31:56,153
highlight & episode:
flick to cremation because graves
420
00:31:56,153 --> 00:31:59,993
highlight & episode:
are very very expensive mausoleums even
421
00:31:59,993 --> 00:32:02,953
highlight & episode:
more so and then the process of embalming comes in
422
00:32:02,953 --> 00:32:05,893
highlight & episode:
we recently family wanted mum
423
00:32:05,893 --> 00:32:08,553
highlight & episode:
to go into a mausoleum and said we said okay well then we
424
00:32:08,553 --> 00:32:11,433
highlight & episode:
have to embalm and they said well what's that
425
00:32:11,433 --> 00:32:14,613
highlight & episode:
so gently we explain it's the preservation of
426
00:32:14,613 --> 00:32:19,233
highlight & episode:
the body the removal of the blood then they said don't tell us any more about
427
00:32:19,233 --> 00:32:23,653
highlight & episode:
that do what you need to do but we don't want to know and i think well you know
428
00:32:23,653 --> 00:32:28,433
highlight & episode:
we're placing mum in an above ground area we've you know we have to have your
429
00:32:28,433 --> 00:32:33,133
highlight & episode:
agreements or agreement that we are going to perform this in Baham.
430
00:32:33,473 --> 00:32:38,053
highlight & episode:
So we find most people, they don't know any of the steps.
431
00:32:39,433 --> 00:32:43,413
highlight & episode:
So we're just educating them as they go.
432
00:32:44,533 --> 00:32:47,493
highlight & episode:
They don't really have an idea on what things are going to cost.
433
00:32:47,993 --> 00:32:52,113
highlight & episode:
So we're very clear as we go. You know, if you are looking at a grave,
434
00:32:52,273 --> 00:32:54,973
highlight & episode:
you're going to have to go buy that, $20,000 over there.
435
00:32:55,513 --> 00:33:00,193
highlight & episode:
Our side of things, probably 10,000 to 12,000, maybe less if it's in our chapel.
436
00:33:01,253 --> 00:33:04,233
highlight & episode:
But all the way through, we're as clear as we can be.
437
00:33:05,901 --> 00:33:10,301
highlight & episode:
There is a misconception that we're evil, money-grubbing buggers.
438
00:33:11,641 --> 00:33:15,241
highlight & episode:
You can hear that on the phone, especially if the phone call starts with,
439
00:33:15,341 --> 00:33:17,421
highlight & episode:
I'm just ringing around, and you think, that's okay.
440
00:33:17,821 --> 00:33:21,201
highlight & episode:
You know, do your due diligence, phone around by all means.
441
00:33:22,121 --> 00:33:26,601
highlight & episode:
But you can, in some conversations, start where they're already deeply suspicious of you.
442
00:33:26,661 --> 00:33:29,601
highlight & episode:
Why would you choose to work in this world? It must be because you're fleecing
443
00:33:29,601 --> 00:33:33,921
highlight & episode:
families, you know, stealing jewellery, doing whatever. So, again,
444
00:33:34,121 --> 00:33:37,681
highlight & episode:
we're slowing down and just explaining why our costs are where they are.
445
00:33:38,161 --> 00:33:43,761
highlight & episode:
I do work in the middle of Sydney. Things are more expensive in a city than out of a city and so on.
446
00:33:45,121 --> 00:33:49,761
highlight & episode:
So, fortunately, people don't know much about funerals because you don't want
447
00:33:49,761 --> 00:33:53,261
highlight & episode:
them spending their life as I do, kind of surrounded by death every day.
448
00:33:54,041 --> 00:34:02,801
highlight & episode:
But at the same time, we gently try and educate. A lot of Catholics maybe haven't
449
00:34:02,801 --> 00:34:07,181
highlight & episode:
been to church for a long time, so we'll talk them through the service before they meet the priest.
450
00:34:07,901 --> 00:34:10,661
highlight & episode:
A lot of Jewish families will say our mum went to synagogue.
451
00:34:10,941 --> 00:34:13,101
highlight & episode:
We haven't really been for many years.
452
00:34:13,241 --> 00:34:16,921
highlight & episode:
I said, all right, well, Rabbi, we'll look to cut your clothing when the service
453
00:34:16,921 --> 00:34:18,461
highlight & episode:
starts and we'll be Kaddish.
454
00:34:19,181 --> 00:34:23,721
highlight & episode:
So we're kind of almost educating on the religious side as well in a lot of
455
00:34:23,721 --> 00:34:29,621
highlight & episode:
cases, which is a strange thing because there's no one course you can sit down
456
00:34:29,621 --> 00:34:32,301
highlight & episode:
to do to learn all this when you start as a funeral director.
457
00:34:32,861 --> 00:34:35,641
highlight & episode:
But then suddenly 10 years in, you find, well, where did all that,
458
00:34:35,721 --> 00:34:37,221
highlight & episode:
how do I have all that in my head?
459
00:34:37,781 --> 00:34:42,541
highlight & episode:
But it is all there. And very much on any first call, any phone call,
460
00:34:42,941 --> 00:34:45,181
highlight & episode:
would just say to a family, look, ask anything.
461
00:34:45,421 --> 00:34:48,981
highlight & episode:
There's really nothing you can ask that we won't answer.
462
00:34:49,601 --> 00:34:52,281
highlight & episode:
And we do get a lot of phone calls. Look, I've got a strange question.
463
00:34:52,441 --> 00:34:54,101
highlight & episode:
So there are none. Ask us anything.
464
00:34:54,841 --> 00:34:57,781
highlight & episode:
And if we can help, we'll tell you the answer.
465
00:35:00,215 --> 00:35:06,775
highlight & episode:
And tell me, you've been quite the advocate for about open conversations about this and dying.
466
00:35:07,815 --> 00:35:11,415
highlight & episode:
Why do you think it is important to be having those conversations, Richard?
467
00:35:12,175 --> 00:35:16,575
highlight & episode:
When we sit with the family and we say, okay, so if we're having a civil service,
468
00:35:16,715 --> 00:35:20,995
highlight & episode:
a kind of atheist service, let's find three pieces of music that mum liked.
469
00:35:21,035 --> 00:35:27,175
highlight & episode:
And you just see these faces go, oh, come on, what did mum maybe hum or sing
470
00:35:27,175 --> 00:35:31,095
highlight & episode:
when she was, you know, puttering around the house or what did she sing to you
471
00:35:31,095 --> 00:35:33,755
highlight & episode:
as a baby? And people just go a bit blank.
472
00:35:33,955 --> 00:35:39,215
highlight & episode:
And I think there's this almost distance that comes up where we stop knowing
473
00:35:39,215 --> 00:35:42,095
highlight & episode:
our parents or our grandparents, the older they get.
474
00:35:43,775 --> 00:35:48,375
highlight & episode:
And so I'm very encouraging for families, if we're speaking to them before a
475
00:35:48,375 --> 00:35:51,975
highlight & episode:
funeral, if mum's going to pass but probably not for a year or so,
476
00:35:52,075 --> 00:35:54,135
highlight & episode:
we'll talk to her in this time.
477
00:35:54,495 --> 00:35:58,135
highlight & episode:
We don't want to be playing Frank Sinatra and you find out three months after
478
00:35:58,135 --> 00:35:59,995
highlight & episode:
the funeral, that, God, she hated that man.
479
00:36:00,455 --> 00:36:05,275
highlight & episode:
You know, talk, find out all those little quirks. You know, what was mum's favourite
480
00:36:05,275 --> 00:36:06,995
highlight & episode:
book? What was her favourite song?
481
00:36:07,135 --> 00:36:11,375
highlight & episode:
What was all the stuff that you're going to find when you're planning the funeral
482
00:36:11,375 --> 00:36:12,895
highlight & episode:
where you won't be able to remember?
483
00:36:12,955 --> 00:36:18,715
highlight & episode:
Just get as much of a picture of mum, aside from the fact that she fills your
484
00:36:18,715 --> 00:36:20,635
highlight & episode:
heart, but the details may be blurry.
485
00:36:21,495 --> 00:36:25,635
highlight & episode:
Get those details while we can. There's a company I heard of the other day,
486
00:36:25,635 --> 00:36:27,555
highlight & episode:
I don't remember their name, but
487
00:36:27,555 --> 00:36:31,335
highlight & episode:
they're beginning to offer to record the person doing their own eulogy.
488
00:36:31,675 --> 00:36:34,555
highlight & episode:
So they'll go in with almost kind of like today's interview,
489
00:36:34,655 --> 00:36:39,175
highlight & episode:
like with a 21-question set, and they'll go in and sit with the person and record
490
00:36:39,175 --> 00:36:44,475
highlight & episode:
all those answers and edit it together so you've got a living record of that person.
491
00:36:44,735 --> 00:36:51,335
highlight & episode:
And I think in not talking about it, we just sit and we deny it's ever going
492
00:36:51,335 --> 00:36:55,055
highlight & episode:
to happen, even though we know that Band-Aid's going to come off and we will be raw.
493
00:36:56,555 --> 00:37:01,655
highlight & episode:
In talking about it, we have a bit more time to say, I didn't know that.
494
00:37:01,715 --> 00:37:03,855
highlight & episode:
That's really good. Tell me more about this.
495
00:37:04,075 --> 00:37:09,635
highlight & episode:
And just see the person as more than just the funeral at the end.
496
00:37:09,675 --> 00:37:11,915
highlight & episode:
Just get to know them that bit better.
497
00:37:11,975 --> 00:37:15,895
highlight & episode:
So when the funeral director says, you know, what song should we play at the end?
498
00:37:16,035 --> 00:37:20,315
highlight & episode:
Oh, there's four we really like. Well, all right, tell me about those four.
499
00:37:20,455 --> 00:37:22,895
highlight & episode:
Let's see which one's the best fit for that moment.
500
00:37:23,695 --> 00:37:30,335
highlight & episode:
But, yeah, just it's a nasty thing at the end of a life, but the end of a life is coming.
501
00:37:30,435 --> 00:37:33,195
highlight & episode:
So it's worth talking about.
502
00:37:33,775 --> 00:37:39,335
highlight & episode:
It's so true what you're saying, though, is that there's many a funeral I've
503
00:37:39,335 --> 00:37:44,475
highlight & episode:
sat in and you're hearing the eulogy being read and you're like,
504
00:37:44,575 --> 00:37:46,055
highlight & episode:
I didn't know that about then.
505
00:37:46,775 --> 00:37:51,975
highlight & episode:
And what's really sad is the fact that I would have loved to have asked more about it.
506
00:37:53,201 --> 00:37:56,821
highlight & episode:
You know, if they were still alive, about that part of their life.
507
00:37:57,701 --> 00:38:03,741
highlight & episode:
Because you're right, we only sort of know what they're sharing at that stage.
508
00:38:03,801 --> 00:38:06,261
highlight & episode:
You know them in your life.
509
00:38:06,441 --> 00:38:10,761
highlight & episode:
So, yeah, I think it's fascinating that we actually, you know,
510
00:38:10,881 --> 00:38:16,241
highlight & episode:
get to know the actual person, not just, I suppose, the parody of who we think they are.
511
00:38:17,201 --> 00:38:19,861
highlight & episode:
Oh, I mean, there's different versions of all of us, you know.
512
00:38:20,121 --> 00:38:22,361
highlight & episode:
My kids see me entirely as dad.
513
00:38:23,201 --> 00:38:26,621
highlight & episode:
And then every now and then they'll see a picture of when my wife and I were
514
00:38:26,621 --> 00:38:30,441
highlight & episode:
together before they were born, when we were much more gig-going,
515
00:38:30,661 --> 00:38:36,221
highlight & episode:
pub-attending, theatre-attending, you know, aspirational, who knows what life will be.
516
00:38:36,501 --> 00:38:39,981
highlight & episode:
And then they'll see a photo of me before I was with mum and just go,
517
00:38:40,141 --> 00:38:42,121
highlight & episode:
oh, I don't even know who that is.
518
00:38:43,321 --> 00:38:48,121
highlight & episode:
There's all these phases and our friends see us differently to the way our family
519
00:38:48,121 --> 00:38:52,941
highlight & episode:
sees us and our colleagues see us differently again. And we're very multifaceted.
520
00:38:53,281 --> 00:38:58,081
highlight & episode:
And I think in as much as you can get to know someone, you can get to know them
521
00:38:58,081 --> 00:39:04,741
highlight & episode:
again. There's still time again to ask more, to tease out more details.
522
00:39:05,701 --> 00:39:09,141
highlight & episode:
Certainly, we're fascinating. My wife's fascinating. My kids are fascinating.
523
00:39:09,161 --> 00:39:11,301
highlight & episode:
I like to think maybe I'm vaguely interesting.
524
00:39:12,181 --> 00:39:16,581
highlight & episode:
So it's just good to go down those rabbit holes.
525
00:39:16,721 --> 00:39:19,681
highlight & episode:
If you want to drive with someone and you drive, oh, I went to school over there,
526
00:39:19,681 --> 00:39:21,401
highlight & episode:
well, just tell me more about that, you know.
527
00:39:22,241 --> 00:39:25,541
highlight & episode:
Tell me the worst teacher, the best class, the things you remember.
528
00:39:27,161 --> 00:39:31,601
highlight & episode:
And tell me, Richard, what inspired you to tell your story?
529
00:39:32,961 --> 00:39:38,121
highlight & episode:
Well, that was mostly my wife telling me to shut up, to be honest. It was end of a day.
530
00:39:38,401 --> 00:39:41,861
highlight & episode:
She's a teacher. I'm a funeral director. We look after different ends of life.
531
00:39:41,861 --> 00:39:45,901
highlight & episode:
But I came home one day and I said, oh, God, look, you won't believe what happened
532
00:39:45,901 --> 00:39:47,801
highlight & episode:
today. She said, look, honestly, I don't have time.
533
00:39:48,181 --> 00:39:50,441
highlight & episode:
Write it down. I promise you I'll get to it later.
534
00:39:51,121 --> 00:39:53,581
highlight & episode:
And I thought, well, no, you bloody won't. But I thought, well...
535
00:39:54,416 --> 00:39:58,576
highlight & episode:
I will write this down because today's been quite a day. And in doing that,
536
00:39:58,656 --> 00:40:00,496
highlight & episode:
well, there have been other days that have been quite a day.
537
00:40:01,036 --> 00:40:04,656
highlight & episode:
Obviously, there's a wealth of stories you could never tell because you'd be
538
00:40:04,656 --> 00:40:09,276
highlight & episode:
impinging on other people's grief or reality. But at the same time,
539
00:40:09,336 --> 00:40:11,796
highlight & episode:
these are all things that are happening to us as well.
540
00:40:12,736 --> 00:40:18,896
highlight & episode:
And so once I started writing, you know, I wrote about my friend Chris who had
541
00:40:18,896 --> 00:40:22,516
highlight & episode:
terminal cancer and eventually asked me to collect his body,
542
00:40:22,796 --> 00:40:28,616
highlight & episode:
which is a deeply different thing to do in life, to pick up your own best friend.
543
00:40:28,616 --> 00:40:32,776
highlight & episode:
And I thought, well, I have so many feelings about that, that to sit and write
544
00:40:32,776 --> 00:40:36,996
highlight & episode:
them down, you can almost crystallise them and you can see them clearer.
545
00:40:37,476 --> 00:40:43,656
highlight & episode:
And then with the documentary we were in, that was so chaotic and such a busy time.
546
00:40:44,036 --> 00:40:48,276
highlight & episode:
I'm working with Odette, who for six months was planning her funeral with us
547
00:40:48,276 --> 00:40:49,956
highlight & episode:
while she was passing away.
548
00:40:50,456 --> 00:40:53,776
highlight & episode:
Again, I thought that had a tremendous impact on me.
549
00:40:53,876 --> 00:40:59,216
highlight & episode:
It left a real thumbprint on my heart, and I'd like to be able to put that down.
550
00:40:59,516 --> 00:41:04,396
highlight & episode:
So when I was starting just writing a little thing for my wife to eventually get to never,
551
00:41:04,716 --> 00:41:10,996
highlight & episode:
it ended up kind of blossoming out and becoming more, and, yeah,
552
00:41:11,216 --> 00:41:17,496
highlight & episode:
until there was kind of 274 pages in paperback, and it was on a bookshelf,
553
00:41:17,536 --> 00:41:19,396
highlight & episode:
which is still a very big surprise.
554
00:41:20,396 --> 00:41:27,616
highlight & episode:
I have to say the way in which you tell both Odette and Chris's stories is very
555
00:41:27,616 --> 00:41:37,236
highlight & episode:
beautiful and very touching how you talk through your own emotion in both of those situations.
556
00:41:37,896 --> 00:41:41,316
highlight & episode:
And it was very, very beautiful. And I thank you for sharing those.
557
00:41:41,576 --> 00:41:44,596
highlight & episode:
Oh, thank you. They were lovely people. They really were.
558
00:41:45,096 --> 00:41:48,336
highlight & episode:
I think I've known still very good friends with Chris's partner,
559
00:41:48,336 --> 00:41:53,516
highlight & episode:
Charlie. and I've now been friends with Charlie for longer than I knew Chris,
560
00:41:53,536 --> 00:41:56,336
highlight & episode:
but it's such a wonderful friendship.
561
00:41:56,496 --> 00:41:59,616
highlight & episode:
And occasionally we sit and go, oh, Chris would have loved this or, you know.
562
00:42:00,216 --> 00:42:04,516
highlight & episode:
But just the way one friendship leads to another friendship and to be able to
563
00:42:04,516 --> 00:42:06,756
highlight & episode:
reassure Chris and pick him up,
564
00:42:07,436 --> 00:42:11,756
highlight & episode:
as much as that bruised my soul and will always leave a mark there,
565
00:42:12,356 --> 00:42:18,116
highlight & episode:
it made him feel just a tiny bit more comfortable or accepting of what was coming.
566
00:42:18,116 --> 00:42:20,596
highlight & episode:
And emotions are wild.
567
00:42:20,796 --> 00:42:22,936
highlight & episode:
And I think they're very healthy things to talk about.
568
00:42:24,156 --> 00:42:27,956
highlight & episode:
And both Odette and Chris knew that they were dying.
569
00:42:29,756 --> 00:42:36,956
highlight & episode:
What do you, or what advice, or how do you talk people through that sort of pre-planning of a,
570
00:42:37,820 --> 00:42:44,860
highlight & episode:
when they either do know their life-limiting illness or if they're just pre-planning
571
00:42:44,860 --> 00:42:46,920
highlight & episode:
just because they're that type of person.
572
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:51,420
highlight & episode:
Well, those are two very different sides of a coin. If they're pre-planning
573
00:42:51,420 --> 00:42:55,720
highlight & episode:
just because they're thinking about it, those meetings are quite buoyant.
574
00:42:56,100 --> 00:43:00,460
highlight & episode:
I had a meeting once with a 32-year-old woman who wanted to pre-plan her funeral.
575
00:43:00,620 --> 00:43:04,320
highlight & episode:
And so I was expecting that she must be terminal or something,
576
00:43:04,380 --> 00:43:07,300
highlight & episode:
but no, she just wanted to see what it was all about, talk it through,
577
00:43:07,900 --> 00:43:10,420
highlight & episode:
had no idea what went on, have a chat.
578
00:43:10,580 --> 00:43:13,400
highlight & episode:
And I said, but you don't want to pay for your funeral at 32.
579
00:43:13,820 --> 00:43:19,500
highlight & episode:
Oh, I think I might. But by 82, your plans will have changed completely.
580
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:26,140
highlight & episode:
I can always update it. And that was a real, there was no emotional weight.
581
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:31,240
highlight & episode:
It was all curiosity and fascination and, you know, how heavy will my ashes
582
00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:33,440
highlight & episode:
be? How long will it take them to come back?
583
00:43:34,420 --> 00:43:38,660
highlight & episode:
So those meetings where we're talking to people who are pre-planning but it's
584
00:43:38,660 --> 00:43:43,340
highlight & episode:
still over the hill, it's still a ways off, they can be very funny.
585
00:43:44,743 --> 00:43:47,563
highlight & episode:
You know, a husband saying, well, I want flowers on my coffin.
586
00:43:47,683 --> 00:43:51,003
highlight & episode:
And the wife saying, why? You hate flowers. Well, I don't know.
587
00:43:51,083 --> 00:43:52,103
highlight & episode:
You just have them, don't you?
588
00:43:53,903 --> 00:43:59,123
highlight & episode:
So the 104-year-old whose wife walked in while he was pre-planning his funeral,
589
00:43:59,143 --> 00:44:02,583
highlight & episode:
she was 80, and he said to us, my trophy wife.
590
00:44:02,843 --> 00:44:06,003
highlight & episode:
And I thought that was – I said, why are you doing this?
591
00:44:06,043 --> 00:44:09,563
highlight & episode:
He goes, I don't want you to worry. And she goes, you don't want a funeral.
592
00:44:09,563 --> 00:44:11,383
highlight & episode:
You want a jazz band and strippers.
593
00:44:11,503 --> 00:44:16,003
highlight & episode:
And I said, I can arrange that. We can pivot and I'll, yeah,
594
00:44:16,103 --> 00:44:18,183
highlight & episode:
they're upbeat meetings.
595
00:44:18,883 --> 00:44:21,203
highlight & episode:
And did he go with the jazz band and strippers?
596
00:44:22,043 --> 00:44:23,843
highlight & episode:
No, no, he didn't, no.
597
00:44:25,163 --> 00:44:29,443
highlight & episode:
I was wanting to know the answer to that. I mean, I haven't had a,
598
00:44:29,523 --> 00:44:33,443
highlight & episode:
I know of one drag queen celebrant, but I haven't had an opportunity.
599
00:44:33,443 --> 00:44:37,403
highlight & episode:
I haven't found the family work and said, well, I do know a drag queen celebrant.
600
00:44:37,483 --> 00:44:39,123
highlight & episode:
I would love to have that one.
601
00:44:39,563 --> 00:44:44,403
highlight & episode:
We'll see if I ever get the opportunity for, I've had a jazz band before, but not strippers.
602
00:44:45,923 --> 00:44:49,703
highlight & episode:
I'm not going to force it on a family. Did dad like strippers?
603
00:44:49,883 --> 00:44:54,243
highlight & episode:
I can bring some in. But no, if the opportunity is there, then we'll see.
604
00:44:54,883 --> 00:45:01,063
highlight & episode:
But on the other side of the coin, if someone is facing that terminal diagnosis,
605
00:45:01,063 --> 00:45:04,343
highlight & episode:
knowing that the end is coming sooner.
606
00:45:05,763 --> 00:45:11,963
highlight & episode:
There's often a will to take away complication for their family.
607
00:45:11,963 --> 00:45:13,943
highlight & episode:
I've already arranged this.
608
00:45:14,183 --> 00:45:16,223
highlight & episode:
You don't need to worry about that.
609
00:45:16,643 --> 00:45:20,423
highlight & episode:
And there's a sense for themselves of knowing things are going to be tidy,
610
00:45:20,683 --> 00:45:26,723
highlight & episode:
that there won't be chaos after they've passed because I've already engaged this company.
611
00:45:26,983 --> 00:45:31,063
highlight & episode:
They'll just a phone call and all of my wishes will be there.
612
00:45:31,323 --> 00:45:37,083
highlight & episode:
So those ones are a lot more emotional. Obviously, we don't sit there and sob,
613
00:45:37,083 --> 00:45:46,003
highlight & episode:
but you're very aware that this is a big acceptance moment for them.
614
00:45:46,523 --> 00:45:50,963
highlight & episode:
You know, they talk about the stages of grief, denial, anger and so on and there's
615
00:45:50,963 --> 00:45:54,083
highlight & episode:
the acceptance and acceptance almost makes things easier.
616
00:45:54,723 --> 00:45:58,023
highlight & episode:
But to be sitting there saying, you know, I know I've probably got three or
617
00:45:58,023 --> 00:46:03,263
highlight & episode:
four months left and I just want all of this planned, lovely meeting I had with
618
00:46:03,263 --> 00:46:06,603
highlight & episode:
a lady who had me sneak in while her daughters were out.
619
00:46:07,123 --> 00:46:10,043
highlight & episode:
And I wrote down everything and then she said, right, go, they'll be home in
620
00:46:10,043 --> 00:46:15,083
highlight & episode:
a minute. And the following day, she sent me a letter. She had me read at her funeral.
621
00:46:15,883 --> 00:46:22,343
highlight & episode:
And for her, once that ugly side, that what happens to my body after I'm gone
622
00:46:22,343 --> 00:46:27,563
highlight & episode:
side was done, I think she could not relax into it.
623
00:46:28,703 --> 00:46:31,563
highlight & episode:
But not fight it, if you see what I mean.
624
00:46:31,743 --> 00:46:37,923
highlight & episode:
Some diagnoses are so definitively terminal that if you can take away the worry
625
00:46:37,923 --> 00:46:39,703
highlight & episode:
about some other parts for people.
626
00:46:41,765 --> 00:46:46,845
highlight & episode:
That transition that they've got to face just becomes a little bit smoother, a little bit simpler.
627
00:46:48,225 --> 00:46:54,185
highlight & episode:
And again, it's such an honour to be asked to do it, to go and sit with those
628
00:46:54,185 --> 00:47:00,005
highlight & episode:
people that if in any way you can just dial the stress down for them a few degrees,
629
00:47:00,285 --> 00:47:03,385
highlight & episode:
then you've done a good day's work. You really have.
630
00:47:04,805 --> 00:47:11,625
highlight & episode:
And so that's part of having those open conversations with families and not ones, isn't it?
631
00:47:11,885 --> 00:47:15,005
highlight & episode:
So you're taking a lot of the guesswork out of it.
632
00:47:16,385 --> 00:47:22,585
highlight & episode:
Yes, yeah. The more we know, the more we talk, the clearer it is.
633
00:47:22,845 --> 00:47:26,445
highlight & episode:
You know, my family know if I was to drop dead here and now,
634
00:47:26,585 --> 00:47:30,405
highlight & episode:
I really don't want a funeral, maybe bring a coffin to the back garden,
635
00:47:30,445 --> 00:47:33,225
highlight & episode:
but I love the idea of everyone having a hot chocolate,
636
00:47:33,405 --> 00:47:38,905
highlight & episode:
playing music and then having a bonfire in the evening and that magic moment where people,
637
00:47:39,345 --> 00:47:42,065
highlight & episode:
you know, Whenever you sit around a fire with your friends, you tell stories.
638
00:47:42,465 --> 00:47:46,345
highlight & episode:
And if you all sat around a fire with friends telling stories about someone
639
00:47:46,345 --> 00:47:52,925
highlight & episode:
who's just passed, it's tearful, it's humorous, it's magic, it's fire,
640
00:47:53,065 --> 00:47:53,925
highlight & episode:
whiskey, and friendship.
641
00:47:54,105 --> 00:47:57,725
highlight & episode:
It's a good blend. So my family know that's what I'd like.
642
00:47:59,445 --> 00:48:03,305
highlight & episode:
My wife's changes varies, but I've got a fair idea.
643
00:48:03,465 --> 00:48:08,905
highlight & episode:
But, you know, it's not unhealthy to be death aware, I think. Yeah.
644
00:48:09,485 --> 00:48:15,385
highlight & episode:
Well, I've certainly seen when people don't know the wishes and that can be
645
00:48:15,385 --> 00:48:18,465
highlight & episode:
pretty difficult and very challenging. Yes.
646
00:48:18,945 --> 00:48:24,445
highlight & episode:
And tell me, have you ever faced ethical challenges as a funeral director?
647
00:48:26,825 --> 00:48:33,405
highlight & episode:
Ethical in the sense that I can see the funeral costs spiralling upwards as
648
00:48:33,405 --> 00:48:34,885
highlight & episode:
they're almost trying to...
649
00:48:36,820 --> 00:48:43,200
highlight & episode:
Honour someone to a degree that I think is unhealthy and is going to put them.
650
00:48:44,180 --> 00:48:48,340
highlight & episode:
I'm a terrible coffin salesman. I start with the cheapest and I say to families,
651
00:48:48,340 --> 00:48:50,480
highlight & episode:
there are far better things to spend money on.
652
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:55,520
highlight & episode:
If you're feeling compelled to buy a $40,000 casket, we'll go down that route.
653
00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:00,960
highlight & episode:
But I don't want you in a financial hole. Now, some families are comfortable
654
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,500
highlight & episode:
enough that they're not going to be in a hole, but others, you know are.
655
00:49:05,500 --> 00:49:09,160
highlight & episode:
And everyone wants to do the best for their mother, father, and so on.
656
00:49:09,660 --> 00:49:15,280
highlight & episode:
But the best doesn't have to be a massive debt afterwards that's going to just,
657
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,860
highlight & episode:
and you can see when you're going through things, you can see that wince in
658
00:49:18,860 --> 00:49:22,820
highlight & episode:
the eye when they see the cost and think, but we don't have to do this.
659
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,560
highlight & episode:
And I don't want you to do this if this is going to, mum doesn't want you to
660
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,520
highlight & episode:
do this if this is going to leave you struggling.
661
00:49:29,900 --> 00:49:35,380
highlight & episode:
So let's pare back. Let's have a different, I've talked people out of many big
662
00:49:35,380 --> 00:49:38,000
highlight & episode:
funerals because I can just see it's inappropriate.
663
00:49:38,860 --> 00:49:45,900
highlight & episode:
So in terms of ethics there, I really don't want people to stumble into a world
664
00:49:45,900 --> 00:49:49,540
highlight & episode:
of repayment that's going to cause them even more grief.
665
00:49:50,720 --> 00:49:54,800
highlight & episode:
In other senses, people do speak very honestly to us.
666
00:49:55,300 --> 00:49:59,060
highlight & episode:
You know, I couldn't stand my mother, but at the funeral, everyone's going to think I loved her.
667
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,440
highlight & episode:
I'd say, well, that's okay. If you've got anything you need to purge, go for it.
668
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:07,780
highlight & episode:
I'm not a therapist, but we'll give your mum the send-off that you feel she should have.
669
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,020
highlight & episode:
But I'd rather you didn't get up there any new eulogy and say,
670
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:15,660
highlight & episode:
God, I couldn't stand that witch. So there is a fine line there.
671
00:50:17,418 --> 00:50:21,818
highlight & episode:
People who want to go to church but without awareness of church,
672
00:50:21,818 --> 00:50:24,018
highlight & episode:
they just want to go there because it's a pretty building.
673
00:50:25,078 --> 00:50:27,838
highlight & episode:
And some people have said, you know, I want to go to that church over there,
674
00:50:27,878 --> 00:50:29,918
highlight & episode:
but, you know, I don't want any of that God business.
675
00:50:30,178 --> 00:50:33,558
highlight & episode:
And so even being an atheist, they're going to say, look, if you're going in
676
00:50:33,558 --> 00:50:40,058
highlight & episode:
that church, that's the priest's building, and that building is all about God business.
677
00:50:40,058 --> 00:50:45,238
highlight & episode:
Now, it's for comfort, care, and community, but we can't go in just because
678
00:50:45,238 --> 00:50:49,978
highlight & episode:
you want the building but not the religion. If we're going in God's house, God is going to be there.
679
00:50:50,678 --> 00:50:53,438
highlight & episode:
And I just think, but I'm an atheist. What on earth am I saying?
680
00:50:53,898 --> 00:50:59,798
highlight & episode:
But it's still like I would never disrespect any of these institutions we go to.
681
00:51:00,378 --> 00:51:03,818
highlight & episode:
You know, when I had the stand-up comedian, the Buddhist monk and the Catholic
682
00:51:03,818 --> 00:51:09,358
highlight & episode:
priest, it was a conversation of can we gel this together or is this going to be?
683
00:51:09,478 --> 00:51:14,578
highlight & episode:
Fortunately, they're all very enthusiastic. But so ethically,
684
00:51:14,578 --> 00:51:20,518
highlight & episode:
it can sometimes be strange for me when families are worried about hell,
685
00:51:20,718 --> 00:51:23,038
highlight & episode:
which I just utterly don't believe in,
686
00:51:23,258 --> 00:51:26,498
highlight & episode:
when they're concerned about heaven and the afterlife.
687
00:51:26,698 --> 00:51:32,078
highlight & episode:
And I'm thinking it's more the life we have now than any worry about after.
688
00:51:32,258 --> 00:51:37,098
highlight & episode:
Afterlife is our memories of the people. But I can't turn around to people and
689
00:51:37,098 --> 00:51:41,118
highlight & episode:
say, I don't believe what you're talking about, but I'll sell you that funeral if you want.
690
00:51:41,418 --> 00:51:47,418
highlight & episode:
And it is strange kind of how much I now know about the faith that I still don't
691
00:51:47,418 --> 00:51:51,898
highlight & episode:
quite believe in, but I do get told more and more, I think you're spiritual, Richard.
692
00:51:52,118 --> 00:51:57,258
highlight & episode:
I still don't think I am, unless we're talking whiskey, but I'm still not quite sure I am.
693
00:51:57,698 --> 00:52:02,798
highlight & episode:
But, yeah, fortunately no muddy ethics, but just moments where I think am I
694
00:52:02,798 --> 00:52:04,858
highlight & episode:
the right person to be having this conversation.
695
00:52:06,829 --> 00:52:12,469
highlight & episode:
And tell me, what have you found to be the most rewarding aspect as your role?
696
00:52:14,089 --> 00:52:19,569
highlight & episode:
The strange moment where you're on an escalator at the shopping mall and someone
697
00:52:19,569 --> 00:52:22,889
highlight & episode:
reaches out, you're going up, they're going down, they reach out and grab your
698
00:52:22,889 --> 00:52:26,629
highlight & episode:
arm and they say, you looked after mum. I did.
699
00:52:27,969 --> 00:52:32,569
highlight & episode:
Or in Vinnie's when I'm looking for a secondhand book and suddenly someone's giving me a hug.
700
00:52:33,029 --> 00:52:37,069
highlight & episode:
And the same thing again, you looked after my brother. and there's so many faces
701
00:52:37,069 --> 00:52:44,549
highlight & episode:
and over 10 years I've done so many funerals and I try but can't remember every single face.
702
00:52:44,749 --> 00:52:51,089
highlight & episode:
But often I do bump into people and I have looked after someone and once they
703
00:52:51,089 --> 00:52:54,329
highlight & episode:
start talking, it'll all come back. My memory's pretty sharp there.
704
00:52:54,889 --> 00:53:00,789
highlight & episode:
But just knowing that I always say we should be anonymous, we should be in the
705
00:53:00,789 --> 00:53:03,689
highlight & episode:
background. It's not about us as funeral directors at all.
706
00:53:04,269 --> 00:53:07,709
highlight & episode:
And if people forget me, I'm fine with that. If they phone up,
707
00:53:07,869 --> 00:53:11,649
highlight & episode:
say, I've worked with you before but I don't remember the gentleman's name, I'm fine with that.
708
00:53:12,009 --> 00:53:18,409
highlight & episode:
But if during the course of those meetings somehow they do remember,
709
00:53:18,409 --> 00:53:22,909
highlight & episode:
they do remember just a little hook of who you are and years later,
710
00:53:23,269 --> 00:53:25,989
highlight & episode:
you know, you just get that arm grab on an escalator,
711
00:53:26,589 --> 00:53:29,749
highlight & episode:
and they're not looking at you aghast, they're looking at you with kind of,
712
00:53:29,989 --> 00:53:33,829
highlight & episode:
I know you, you did something good for us. And you think, that's nice.
713
00:53:34,609 --> 00:53:39,849
highlight & episode:
And there's a good few families now that keep in touch, that came along to my
714
00:53:39,849 --> 00:53:43,749
highlight & episode:
book launch, things like that, where we've moved beyond the fact that someone
715
00:53:43,749 --> 00:53:45,849
highlight & episode:
passed away. And we are friends. We are.
716
00:53:47,349 --> 00:53:52,629
highlight & episode:
You meet some lovely people. So that, in as much as I'm standoffish and abrupt,
717
00:53:52,809 --> 00:53:56,829
highlight & episode:
it's lovely to realize how many friends I've made doing this job.
718
00:53:58,636 --> 00:54:03,496
highlight & episode:
And tell me, Richard, what lessons has the job taught you?
719
00:54:04,876 --> 00:54:09,436
highlight & episode:
Lessons? You can't see my full body. It should teach me to lose weight,
720
00:54:09,456 --> 00:54:10,916
highlight & episode:
but I haven't managed to do that.
721
00:54:11,356 --> 00:54:14,576
highlight & episode:
It should teach me to pay attention to the diabetes diagnosis,
722
00:54:14,576 --> 00:54:16,956
highlight & episode:
but I haven't really got my head around that yet.
723
00:54:18,396 --> 00:54:22,616
highlight & episode:
Lessons it's taught me very much is try not to sweat the small stuff.
724
00:54:23,296 --> 00:54:27,756
highlight & episode:
You know, my daughter's HSC is coming irrespective of how she does.
725
00:54:27,756 --> 00:54:29,256
highlight & episode:
She's got a whole life ahead of her.
726
00:54:29,676 --> 00:54:33,576
highlight & episode:
My son's HFC was a couple of years ago. It wasn't wildly successful,
727
00:54:33,576 --> 00:54:36,076
highlight & episode:
but he's at TAFE now studying nursing.
728
00:54:37,396 --> 00:54:41,396
highlight & episode:
The more you get tied up about things that may or may not happen,
729
00:54:41,556 --> 00:54:43,836
highlight & episode:
the more you miss things that are happening right now.
730
00:54:44,796 --> 00:54:53,876
highlight & episode:
So I do try to be as positive as I can, to get as much humour into the world
731
00:54:53,876 --> 00:54:59,596
highlight & episode:
as I can, as much enjoyment, try and walk the dog and lose weight.
732
00:54:59,716 --> 00:55:05,616
highlight & episode:
That's not so enjoyable, but it's just fine time for reflection,
733
00:55:06,456 --> 00:55:10,536
highlight & episode:
fine time to do, you know, it was Father's Day yesterday. That was nice.
734
00:55:11,116 --> 00:55:14,256
highlight & episode:
You know, I got the typical book and a box of chocolates, but it was nice.
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It was to enjoy as much as you can, really.
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And I've been married 21 years now, and it's very hard to remember to have a
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date night, but try and find a movie that you agree on to go and see and get out and good food.
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Just, yeah, if you can avoid the small stuff, it's best avoided.
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I think that's great advice. Thank you so much for being with us today,
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Richard. I've really enjoyed this conversation.
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It's been lovely. Thank you.
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outro:
We hope you enjoyed today's episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,
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brought to you by Critical Info.
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If you liked the episode, learnt something new or were touched by a story you
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heard we'd love for you to let us know Send us an email, even tell your friends
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Subscribe so you don't miss out on new episodes If you can spare a few moments,
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please rate and review us as it helps other people to find the show Are you dying to know more?
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Stay up to date with Don't Be Caught Dead by signing up to our newsletter and
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follow us on social media Head to DontBeCaughtDead.com for more information and loads of resources.
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Resources
- Read the Book: After the Worst Has Happened: Tales from a funeral director on the lighter side of death
- My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?
Our guide, ‘My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?’ provides practical steps for the hours and days after a loved one's death. Download it here.
- Support Services
If you're feeling overwhelmed by grief, find support through our resources and bereavement services here.
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