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Bryan: The language that people who
are in grief use, and that's a big part

2
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of our therapeutic work, is working
with people to practice some language.

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How they speak about themselves,
how they speak about their grief,

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how they speak about their loss.

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Really important.

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00:00:16,970 ... Read More

1
00:00:01,470 --> 00:00:05,250
Bryan: The language that people who
are in grief use, and that's a big part

2
00:00:05,250 --> 00:00:10,219
of our therapeutic work, is working
with people to practice some language.

3
00:00:10,319 --> 00:00:13,149
How they speak about themselves,
how they speak about their grief,

4
00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:14,469
how they speak about their loss.

5
00:00:15,740 --> 00:00:16,460
Really important.

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And I think some of the changes have been,
I guess, a more direct way of speaking.

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Often we encourage people to
be clear about what's happened.

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So maybe rather than someone has
passed away or moved on, we might

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actually use the word death or dying.

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Someone has died and it's sort
of a bit harsh, doesn't it?

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But that language is really important
because it can help people to move to the

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level of acceptance of what's happened,
that reality that they're now faced with.

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Catherine: Welcome to Don't Be
Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging

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00:00:48,805 --> 00:00:52,275
open conversations about dying
and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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00:00:57,790 --> 00:01:00,290
bring your stories of death back to life.

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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations

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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.

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We pay our respects to their elders,
past, present, and emerging, and

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extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Today we have Brian Petheran, a
councillor and group facilitator

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with Griefline, a national not for
profit that has been supporting the

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community with free grief support
and resources for more than 30 years.

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Thank you for being with us, Brian.

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Bryan: Thanks Catherine,
really nice to be here.

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Thanks for the invitation.

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Catherine: Now tell me Brian,
what attracted you to the role of

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being a councillor at Griefline?

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Bryan: Yeah, well I was attracted to
Griefline first of all, I guess, because

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of the work they do in the community.

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Uh, grief and loss
focused, really important.

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But in terms of being a councillor in
the grief and loss space, Yeah, what

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attracted me, uh, to that role really
was lived experience of grief and loss,

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my own of course, but really a long
time, uh, in a first response role

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with the police, uh, I, I sat with
many people, uh, experiencing all types

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of loss and I observed many types of
grief and Yeah, I kind of morphed into

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a counselling therapeutic space where
I could sit with people for longer

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than I was able to in that different
role and support them in their grief.

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And it's a real privilege.

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It's a real privilege to sit
with people in their grief.

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Uh, yeah.

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So attracted to the role of working
as a grief counsellor and then

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attracted to grief law because of
the work we do in the community.

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So what

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Catherine: I might do is just take you
back to that earlier role that you've

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had of being a police officer, excuse me.

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What period was that and

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what was your role?

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Bryan: Yeah, absolutely.

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So it was a 20 year period, uh,
started in the very late 90s.

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Uh, into 20 years later, lots of
different roles actually, uh, mostly

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on the street, mostly in general
duties, first response type to work.

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I also worked in the courts, uh, and
a few different places, but primarily,

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you know, that first response role.

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And it really, yeah, I mean,
amazing sort of career, really

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worthwhile, challenging at times.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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From a grief and loss perspective,
there was just so much of it that was,

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I mean, it was almost present daily.

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Yeah.

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And not just bereavement, not
just people dying, of course, you

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know, but other types of losses.

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And I think as an early police
officer, I kind of wasn't aware

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of what that actually meant.

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You know, what is this grief that
people have and how are they responding?

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And, you know, doesn't everyone
respond in the same way kind of thing.

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But as time went on and you saw more
and more and became a bit more educated

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myself, and I guess more lived experience
and grew up a little bit, I guess I,

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I saw that There are different ways
to grieve and that really interested

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me, which was already in, I guess,
an education around grief and loss.

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And we're continuing that journey now.

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And again, a real privilege
sitting with people.

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I think as a police officer,
particularly, and the paramedics

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are very similar, aren't they?

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And other first responders that
often you're the first person who's

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present at the scene of a loss,
if I can describe it that way.

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Of course, there's grief.

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You know, there's that psychological
first aid moment, but you're the very

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first person and you're kind of holding
this person emotionally, you know.

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And sometimes feeling a
bit lost in that space.

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How do we kind of, what do we do?

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How do we fix this?

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Was often the sense I had.

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Yeah.

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Remarkable work.

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Catherine: And that's interesting that
you say that you felt as a first responder

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being in that position, how do I fix this?

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I think that, uh, from what I've seen
from the outside looking in, when people

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are a first responder, they're very much
inclined to want to fix or help solve the

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problem that they see in front of them.

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Would that be your perception
from where you were?

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Bryan: Yeah, you put it really well,
Catherine, that problem solving.

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Absolutely.

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I think as a police officer, yeah,
and paramedics, again, I'm using them

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in the same, same vein, of course.

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Uh, yeah, there's a problem in
front of you and you do fix it.

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You do what you can to fix it, uh, as
best you can, uh, whatever that means

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and whatever is appropriate in those
circumstances and grief and loss, uh,

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particularly, you know, uh, the deaths
of people was a space where I learned

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pretty quickly that I couldn't do that.

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I didn't have that power.

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I didn't have that authority
to take away someone's pain.

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Yeah, it was really, it really
troubled me over the years.

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Um, and, and how do you teach?

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You know, how do you teach that?

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I mean, how do you, as a police officer
or any kind of profession, how do

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you teach, you know, uh, the ability
to hold that space with strangers?

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And that's really what sort of inspired
me into this space now, because I

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thought, hang on, I'm working with these
strangers and I'm often the first port of

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call in relation to a significant loss.

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Of course, now, as a grief counsellor,
you know, like, I'm well aware that

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we don't try to take away the grief.

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In fact, I don't want to
take away someone's grief.

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It's the last thing I want to do.

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I don't want to rob
them of that experience.

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But it's a different sense now because
I've got time, uh, a privilege of time

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to sit with people, sometimes for hours
at a time, weeks and months at a time.

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Uh, a privilege I didn't really have.

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In that other role, um, just because
the nature of the role, I guess,

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Catherine, the different, I think.

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Catherine: Very much so.

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And thinking of that timeline of the
90s when you first started, that was

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very much, from my understanding, where
we were still thinking about grief as

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something Stages that you pass through.

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Whereas you're in a position to tell
me from what my understanding is, is

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that we've moved past that thinking.

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Would that be correct, Brian?

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Bryan: Oh, completely correct.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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We, we don't forget that thinking, you
know, uh, we acknowledge the emotions

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that were in that stage model that those
emotions exist, but we've certainly moved

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well past the idea of a stage model.

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Absolutely.

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Uh, Yeah, absolutely.

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And there are lots of different models
we use today in our therapeutic work

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that are quite different from that.

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Um, but we don't ignore the work
that was done to create that model.

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It had a meaning and it was worthwhile,
but you know, that model was created in

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1969 and we're a bit older than that now.

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So we, we kind of know a bit more
than I guess we might've then, but,

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but going back to that policing
experience, I mean, There was simply

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no teaching of grief and loss.

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There was no kind of, you know, even
the five stage model as we've just

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discussed, it wasn't even taught to us.

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00:07:54,825 --> 00:07:58,565
So you kind of arrived on the
scene of, of, uh, of an incident

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and yeah, you worked it out from
those before you that had done it.

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You learned from others, I guess.

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Yeah.

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I think if I went back now, I'll probably
annoy my colleagues a bit, but if I went

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00:08:11,234 --> 00:08:14,474
back now with this grief knowledge that
I've been lucky enough to accumulate,

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uh, yeah, I might, I don't know, I
might sit with people a bit differently.

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00:08:19,210 --> 00:08:21,800
Although I say that, but I
mean, again, it's a time, the

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privilege of time now, isn't it?

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I guess that's, that's what we have.

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Yeah.

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Catherine: And the beauty of hindsight.

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Bryan: That's right.

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00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:28,840
Yeah, absolutely.

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00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,200
Catherine: We're always far more critical
of our actions when we look back.

164
00:08:33,659 --> 00:08:34,740
Bryan: Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Uh, but even Catherine, the conversation,
and I know we might talk about later

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00:08:38,730 --> 00:08:41,310
on, but even the language used,
I remember being an early police

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officer and you'd kind of walk into a
house and you met the absolute best.

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Absolute best, but you'd say things like,
so how are you today, or how are you

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going, or just the words we chose, you
know, because what else could you say?

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Reality, probably the best thing was to
say almost nothing and just be there.

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Yeah, it's kind of a work in
progress for all of us, you know,

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00:09:02,630 --> 00:09:04,060
how do we talk about grief and loss?

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with those around us.

175
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Yeah, that's been a real lesson of mine.

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I can, I can assure you.

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Catherine: And do you want to tell
me a little bit more about that?

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00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:19,599
Like, what are the changes that we have
seen in relation to language, how we

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support, how we talk about grief and the
different models you have now have in your

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00:09:27,279 --> 00:09:29,709
toolbox to work with different people?

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00:09:30,069 --> 00:09:32,300
Can you, Give me some sort
of insight about that.

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Bryan: Yeah, absolutely.

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Yeah.

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That's a good question.

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00:09:36,140 --> 00:09:38,260
I think language is really
important in our grief work.

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Uh, the language that we use as
practitioners is really important,

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00:09:42,819 --> 00:09:46,510
but the language that people who
are in grief use, and that's a big

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00:09:46,519 --> 00:09:51,650
part of our therapeutic work is, is
working with people to, to practice

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some language, how they speak about
themselves, how they speak about their

190
00:09:54,930 --> 00:09:56,620
grief, how they speak about their loss.

191
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Really important.

192
00:09:59,150 --> 00:10:03,210
And I think some of the changes have been,
I guess, a more direct way of speaking.

193
00:10:04,199 --> 00:10:07,380
Often we encourage people to
be clear about what's happened.

194
00:10:07,420 --> 00:10:13,129
So maybe, rather than, you know, someone
has passed away or moved on, we might

195
00:10:13,129 --> 00:10:14,859
actually use the word death or dying.

196
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Someone has died.

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That sentence is sort of a bit
harsh, doesn't it, but that language

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is really important because it can
help people to move to the level of

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acceptance of what's happened, that
reality that they're now faced with.

200
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And then the language around
ourselves, you know, you know,

201
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am I a widow or a widower?

202
00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,055
Uh, am I, A bereaved person,
you know, how do we describe

203
00:10:38,055 --> 00:10:40,165
ourselves and does grief define us?

204
00:10:40,515 --> 00:10:44,815
Is that identity that we've taken,
does that define who we are now

205
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or is grief just part of us?

206
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So the words we use, I think, are
important and it's a big part of the

207
00:10:50,445 --> 00:10:54,144
work with people in a therapeutic
clinical sense to kind of, you know,

208
00:10:54,325 --> 00:10:57,995
practice some different languages,
uh, different words around how they

209
00:10:57,995 --> 00:10:59,415
speak about themselves in particular.

210
00:11:01,805 --> 00:11:05,065
And the models, I mean, there are, there
are quite a few different contemporary

211
00:11:05,065 --> 00:11:09,825
models we use, but I think to summarize
them, if that helps, uh, is they're,

212
00:11:10,014 --> 00:11:15,324
they're mostly about, uh, a non linear,
non straight line way of grieving.

213
00:11:16,174 --> 00:11:17,344
They're process driven.

214
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So grief as a process.

215
00:11:19,780 --> 00:11:26,699
Grief as, you know, the, the, the
movement through, I guess, some tasks

216
00:11:26,699 --> 00:11:32,930
of grief, things that, that as, as
humans in grief, we could experience

217
00:11:33,270 --> 00:11:39,109
and how do we move through those
moments, but we, we move back and forth.

218
00:11:39,459 --> 00:11:41,880
Uh, you know, it's a
nonlinear sort of projection.

219
00:11:42,310 --> 00:11:44,390
There's a really good
diagram that I've seen.

220
00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,060
I mean, you can Google it and
it's a, it's an image of grief.

221
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It's just chaos.

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You know, it's lines
from emotion to emotion.

223
00:11:50,959 --> 00:11:55,719
And it kind of counters that idea
that whether we move through the

224
00:11:55,719 --> 00:11:59,160
tasks of grief or whether we move
through the process of grief, that

225
00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:00,510
we have to do it in a straight line.

226
00:12:00,610 --> 00:12:06,690
And once people see that and realize
that, hey, this thing is chaotic and the

227
00:12:06,700 --> 00:12:09,130
chaos that we're experiencing is actually.

228
00:12:11,690 --> 00:12:14,979
It makes a big difference for people
and gives them the, I guess, almost

229
00:12:14,979 --> 00:12:18,599
the freedom, if that's the right word,
to, to experience their own grief.

230
00:12:19,030 --> 00:12:21,830
So, yeah, I think, you know, that's
a quick summary, Catherine, but

231
00:12:21,830 --> 00:12:26,619
it's, yeah, more process driven as
opposed to, you know, prescriptive.

232
00:12:27,005 --> 00:12:30,694
Uh, in grief, I think is a, a big
change that I've seen over the years.

233
00:12:30,805 --> 00:12:31,145
Yeah.

234
00:12:32,955 --> 00:12:37,125
Catherine: What I find interesting about
what you're saying, Brian, is that, that

235
00:12:37,214 --> 00:12:46,984
label and that tendency for us to define
ourselves as a particular person and name,

236
00:12:46,984 --> 00:12:50,254
whether we are a widow or we're married.

237
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:57,829
We seem to put a lot of pressure on
ourselves to pigeonhole where we fit.

238
00:12:58,620 --> 00:13:02,210
Is that some of the challenge you
have to work through with them?

239
00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:05,129
Bryan: Yeah, Catherine,
a really good question.

240
00:13:05,249 --> 00:13:07,600
Uh, I think it's the greatest challenge.

241
00:13:08,340 --> 00:13:08,970
Absolutely.

242
00:13:09,490 --> 00:13:12,730
I think the greatest challenge for
people in grief, besides the, you

243
00:13:12,730 --> 00:13:16,020
know, the terrible heaviness and the
pain of what they're experiencing

244
00:13:16,020 --> 00:13:19,389
and their sense of loss, of course,
that's probably goes without saying,

245
00:13:19,399 --> 00:13:22,120
but it's worth acknowledging,
of course, that's important.

246
00:13:23,030 --> 00:13:27,319
But I think socially, I think, you
know, people in grief are often

247
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:29,250
comparing themselves to others.

248
00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:31,300
Either others they know.

249
00:13:31,854 --> 00:13:36,385
Or others they don't, you know, they
see people on social media or other

250
00:13:36,385 --> 00:13:40,304
forms of media, they, they hear from
their family or community or their

251
00:13:40,305 --> 00:13:45,405
work colleagues that, hey, grief looks
this way, but hold on, mine doesn't.

252
00:13:46,105 --> 00:13:49,684
So, if mine doesn't look the
way yours does, then is there

253
00:13:49,685 --> 00:13:50,494
something wrong with me?

254
00:13:50,925 --> 00:13:54,185
And that's a really powerful message
that people are hearing in the community.

255
00:13:54,935 --> 00:13:58,334
And I guess that's part of the work
we do at Griefline particularly, uh,

256
00:13:58,354 --> 00:14:03,155
is to, I guess, hopefully spread the
message that your grief is your grief.

257
00:14:03,594 --> 00:14:07,414
Here are some common ways that people
might grieve, but how are you grieving?

258
00:14:07,994 --> 00:14:09,215
Uh, that's really important.

259
00:14:10,185 --> 00:14:12,974
I've had many clients, Catherine, have
come to me just as part of the team

260
00:14:12,974 --> 00:14:14,584
here at Griefline as a grief counsellor.

261
00:14:14,655 --> 00:14:18,764
And they've come because they
have the message that their grief

262
00:14:18,795 --> 00:14:21,134
is not happening the right way.

263
00:14:21,774 --> 00:14:24,234
So they'll come to me and they'll
say, Hey, Brian, I've come to you

264
00:14:24,234 --> 00:14:25,894
because I'm not grieving correctly.

265
00:14:26,385 --> 00:14:30,165
And I want to learn how to grieve
correctly is essentially what often comes.

266
00:14:31,214 --> 00:14:35,675
It doesn't take very long to spend
time with them for hopefully for them

267
00:14:35,675 --> 00:14:38,735
to see that in fact they're grieving
in the way that's right for them.

268
00:14:39,505 --> 00:14:41,405
Um, maybe there are some tweaks.

269
00:14:41,415 --> 00:14:45,575
Maybe there are some things that we could
think about doing differently or feeling

270
00:14:45,575 --> 00:14:50,234
different or use of language as we've
discussed, of course, but often almost

271
00:14:50,234 --> 00:14:53,574
invariably their grief is okay for them.

272
00:14:54,364 --> 00:14:55,754
It's painful and heavy.

273
00:14:55,894 --> 00:14:56,654
Absolutely.

274
00:14:57,224 --> 00:14:58,754
But they're doing the best they can.

275
00:14:59,140 --> 00:15:00,750
in their own circumstances.

276
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,950
Sometimes that comparison in grief happens
when people have lost the same person.

277
00:15:06,469 --> 00:15:10,790
You know, someone in a family
dies and siblings or partners or

278
00:15:10,829 --> 00:15:14,679
children, you know, they'll grieve
quite differently and they'll

279
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,029
compare each other in the same home.

280
00:15:18,349 --> 00:15:22,849
You know, why is he or she back at work
or why is he or she eating well and

281
00:15:22,849 --> 00:15:26,060
exercising and sleeping and I'm not, you
know, is there something wrong with me?

282
00:15:26,479 --> 00:15:30,099
We hope the message is well, no,
your grief is just different.

283
00:15:30,325 --> 00:15:35,060
For lots of different reasons,
um, And let's see how your

284
00:15:35,060 --> 00:15:36,350
grief shifts and changes.

285
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,740
Um, because that's what
it will do, won't it?

286
00:15:38,830 --> 00:15:41,969
You know, uh, I often say to
people, you know, we meet today,

287
00:15:42,060 --> 00:15:43,310
your grief looks this way.

288
00:15:43,950 --> 00:15:48,250
But if we were meeting for the first
time in tomorrow, or six weeks, or

289
00:15:48,250 --> 00:15:52,329
six months, or two years, that your
grief could look very different.

290
00:15:53,190 --> 00:15:57,409
I can't prescribe what that will
be yet, but that idea that grief

291
00:15:57,409 --> 00:16:01,225
shifts and changes, Can give someone
a sense of some sort of healing

292
00:16:01,335 --> 00:16:06,085
hope, uh, for the future, but not to
compare with the person next to you.

293
00:16:06,604 --> 00:16:06,935
Yeah.

294
00:16:07,015 --> 00:16:09,685
But compared with your own grief,
I guess is the challenge, isn't it?

295
00:16:10,235 --> 00:16:10,925
Yeah, good question.

296
00:16:11,355 --> 00:16:16,574
Catherine: And from what you're saying,
I'm assuming that there's not only

297
00:16:16,944 --> 00:16:21,944
societal pressures that we're having
to deal with up there, what you were

298
00:16:21,944 --> 00:16:28,754
mentioning about intergenerational issues,
uh, I'm assuming cultural, religious

299
00:16:28,954 --> 00:16:38,435
issues all play a part in how we perceive
we should be responding when someone dies.

300
00:16:38,714 --> 00:16:39,064
Bryan: Yeah.

301
00:16:39,714 --> 00:16:40,305
Absolutely.

302
00:16:40,844 --> 00:16:41,694
And that's that word, isn't it?

303
00:16:41,714 --> 00:16:42,125
Should.

304
00:16:42,585 --> 00:16:44,075
Again, return to language.

305
00:16:45,245 --> 00:16:48,885
Yeah, should is such a
dangerous word in grief work.

306
00:16:49,435 --> 00:16:50,284
People use it all the time.

307
00:16:50,525 --> 00:16:51,464
I should feel this way.

308
00:16:51,464 --> 00:16:52,355
I should do this.

309
00:16:52,355 --> 00:16:53,295
I should think this way.

310
00:16:53,985 --> 00:16:55,095
Uh, yeah.

311
00:16:55,475 --> 00:16:59,474
Sometimes we spend whole sessions
in counselling erasing that word

312
00:16:59,484 --> 00:17:00,854
from the vocabulary if we can.

313
00:17:01,294 --> 00:17:02,414
Maybe not should, but could.

314
00:17:02,634 --> 00:17:03,745
I guess is a better word, isn't it?

315
00:17:04,045 --> 00:17:04,625
So you're right.

316
00:17:04,704 --> 00:17:09,444
All those societal, uh, uh, Messages
that we receive, the construction of our

317
00:17:09,454 --> 00:17:13,545
grief and loss, but it's not just the
grief itself, like how we should grieve.

318
00:17:13,585 --> 00:17:15,005
It's also what the loss is.

319
00:17:15,465 --> 00:17:18,054
So, uh, societal influences, yeah.

320
00:17:18,055 --> 00:17:21,415
Cultural influences, family
influences, and those intergenerational

321
00:17:22,105 --> 00:17:25,675
downward kind of messages,
uh, from generations above us.

322
00:17:25,895 --> 00:17:26,605
Absolutely.

323
00:17:27,294 --> 00:17:28,745
But they're also about loss too.

324
00:17:29,645 --> 00:17:34,825
Often people will, will have trouble
acknowledging the significance

325
00:17:34,865 --> 00:17:35,924
of a loss in their life.

326
00:17:37,044 --> 00:17:39,415
I mean, bereavement and death of
someone, that's I guess the most

327
00:17:39,415 --> 00:17:41,004
obvious and really significant.

328
00:17:41,234 --> 00:17:44,794
But other losses that can, that can come
from that or that can exist in their life.

329
00:17:45,615 --> 00:17:46,804
People will fail to acknowledge it.

330
00:17:48,225 --> 00:17:52,685
Either because those in their
community don't acknowledge it, or

331
00:17:52,725 --> 00:17:54,075
they don't acknowledge it themselves.

332
00:17:54,595 --> 00:17:57,865
And then they're kind of left with this
sense of, well, why do I feel this way?

333
00:17:58,325 --> 00:18:00,895
And sometimes, sometimes, the
answer is, well, there's this

334
00:18:00,895 --> 00:18:02,064
loss that's not acknowledged.

335
00:18:02,554 --> 00:18:04,944
So the first step really
is we acknowledge the loss.

336
00:18:05,264 --> 00:18:08,160
Um, that's often, um,
Yeah, we're all different.

337
00:18:08,190 --> 00:18:10,230
That's how I might start a
counseling session with someone.

338
00:18:10,820 --> 00:18:12,110
Obviously acknowledge what the loss is.

339
00:18:13,050 --> 00:18:15,520
And once we've done that, then
we can look what the grief is.

340
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:17,290
But the loss must come first.

341
00:18:17,469 --> 00:18:21,100
So it's, it's really the first step,
you know, what is your loss and

342
00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:22,240
what does this loss mean to you?

343
00:18:22,639 --> 00:18:23,820
What does it say about you?

344
00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:25,570
What does it say about your future?

345
00:18:25,729 --> 00:18:27,570
What, where does it tie to your past?

346
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,000
What does this loss actually mean?

347
00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:32,120
All those factors we've identified
or you've identified absolutely

348
00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:36,649
correctly, you know, they, they do
impact how we acknowledge the loss.

349
00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:42,040
You know, sometimes people will come to
counseling, for example, because they feel

350
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,740
there isn't the acknowledgement or support
of their loss within their community.

351
00:18:46,190 --> 00:18:49,350
So they come to an outsider, uh,
whoever that might be, it could

352
00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:51,710
be a formal counselor, or it could
be, you know, someone else in their

353
00:18:51,710 --> 00:18:55,690
community that they can talk to who
does acknowledge the loss, you know.

354
00:18:55,700 --> 00:19:01,250
I think one of the biggest challenges
to Catherine is, you know, Grief

355
00:19:01,250 --> 00:19:04,460
and loss can be disenfranchised
by the community and by society.

356
00:19:05,270 --> 00:19:07,110
But sometimes we
disenfranchise our own grief.

357
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,460
We always say to ourselves,
I shouldn't feel this way.

358
00:19:10,550 --> 00:19:11,489
There's that word, should, again.

359
00:19:11,910 --> 00:19:15,000
And because I shouldn't
feel this way, then I won't.

360
00:19:16,660 --> 00:19:19,019
Yeah, it's a real challenge, I think.

361
00:19:22,279 --> 00:19:26,700
Catherine: And when you talk about
loss, is it possible to give us

362
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:31,980
some examples of what people mention
as the loss that they experience?

363
00:19:31,980 --> 00:19:32,240
Yes.

364
00:19:34,685 --> 00:19:35,515
Bryan: Yeah, absolutely.

365
00:19:35,615 --> 00:19:36,145
Yeah.

366
00:19:36,235 --> 00:19:39,185
I mean, there's the loss of the person
through death, of course, bereavement.

367
00:19:39,495 --> 00:19:42,604
That's, I guess, what people
often think about when they

368
00:19:42,605 --> 00:19:44,104
think about grief, don't they?

369
00:19:44,105 --> 00:19:45,705
And that's really
significant and important.

370
00:19:46,625 --> 00:19:48,674
Sometimes other losses
can flow from that though.

371
00:19:49,165 --> 00:19:53,844
So someone dies and someone's faced
with that terrible loss and the real

372
00:19:53,934 --> 00:19:55,944
change and adjustment to their reality.

373
00:19:58,314 --> 00:20:01,374
Sometimes, you know, that
comes with financial pressure.

374
00:20:01,954 --> 00:20:05,225
You know, sometimes people have to move
home or, you know, They can't afford

375
00:20:05,225 --> 00:20:08,325
their rent or their mortgage if they're
rich one, sometimes they have to leave

376
00:20:08,325 --> 00:20:14,155
their job, uh, sometimes they lose other
relationships because of the death, you

377
00:20:14,155 --> 00:20:18,304
know, siblings can kind of have a rupture
when the parent dies, as an example,

378
00:20:18,635 --> 00:20:22,324
so all these other, what we call living
losses, you know, things in people that

379
00:20:22,325 --> 00:20:28,485
are still alive, uh, we lose those as
well, sometimes people, Lose their sense

380
00:20:28,485 --> 00:20:31,355
of identity, going back to that sense
of identity, you know, who am I now?

381
00:20:31,774 --> 00:20:34,475
You know, I've lost a parent
or a sibling or a friend.

382
00:20:34,794 --> 00:20:38,334
Uh, what does that mean
for me and who am I now?

383
00:20:38,384 --> 00:20:42,274
And that loss of sense of identity,
uh, is really, really powerful.

384
00:20:43,354 --> 00:20:44,554
Loss of relationships?

385
00:20:45,304 --> 00:20:45,594
No.

386
00:20:46,775 --> 00:20:50,645
We use the word bereavement for the
loss from a death, of course, but We

387
00:20:50,645 --> 00:20:55,295
can equally probably steal the turn
and apply bereavement to loss of

388
00:20:55,295 --> 00:20:59,875
relationships, loss of marriages, long
term relationships, uh, loss of job.

389
00:21:00,775 --> 00:21:01,835
A lot of research on that.

390
00:21:01,875 --> 00:21:04,925
People lose their job and it's a sense
of identity attached to their occupation.

391
00:21:05,395 --> 00:21:08,684
I know a lot of police, as an example,
to go back to that theme, when that

392
00:21:08,685 --> 00:21:13,464
career ends, there's a significant
sense of loss because that they're

393
00:21:13,514 --> 00:21:16,714
tied to that identity as a, as a
police officer and they lose that.

394
00:21:17,254 --> 00:21:18,484
Uh, happens in the military a lot.

395
00:21:19,075 --> 00:21:20,545
You know, and there's real grief there.

396
00:21:21,084 --> 00:21:22,445
How do we start that work?

397
00:21:22,465 --> 00:21:23,965
Well, we say, well, what have you lost?

398
00:21:24,385 --> 00:21:25,315
And what does it mean to you?

399
00:21:26,804 --> 00:21:28,455
Why does this marriage
mean something to you?

400
00:21:28,514 --> 00:21:30,205
Why does this house mean something to you?

401
00:21:30,235 --> 00:21:31,644
Why does this job mean something to you?

402
00:21:32,254 --> 00:21:34,194
Why does it matter that you're
different than you used to

403
00:21:34,195 --> 00:21:35,304
be, that sense of identity?

404
00:21:35,604 --> 00:21:36,564
Why is that important?

405
00:21:36,565 --> 00:21:36,914
Do

406
00:21:36,914 --> 00:21:40,735
Catherine: you work on values
when you go through that process?

407
00:21:41,220 --> 00:21:47,439
Because I know when I had my car
accident and I had to give up my job,

408
00:21:47,470 --> 00:21:51,999
which I loved and, uh, at the Royal
Botanic Gardens as a producer in

409
00:21:51,999 --> 00:21:55,210
events, and I'd been there for 13 years.

410
00:21:55,570 --> 00:21:58,039
So it was my sense of community.

411
00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:04,350
It was my sense of purpose, but
it took me 16 weeks in rehab to

412
00:22:04,350 --> 00:22:11,200
work out what my values were, and
therefore, What I needed to satisfy.

413
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,550
To make me feel better again, I suppose.

414
00:22:17,330 --> 00:22:19,470
Bryan: Absolutely, values
are such an important place

415
00:22:19,660 --> 00:22:20,860
to spend time in, isn't it?

416
00:22:20,940 --> 00:22:21,520
Absolutely.

417
00:22:22,050 --> 00:22:25,709
Because if you work out the values,
your values, then you can work

418
00:22:25,710 --> 00:22:27,889
out how valuable that role is.

419
00:22:27,989 --> 00:22:32,510
So for you, that important work
was valuable to you in some form.

420
00:22:33,220 --> 00:22:36,800
Because I guess you could argue if
there's no value in that, then the

421
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:38,730
loss is less significant, I guess.

422
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:41,260
Why does it feel painful to lose someone?

423
00:22:41,260 --> 00:22:41,344
I don't know.

424
00:22:41,865 --> 00:22:44,335
Or lose something because
it has value to me.

425
00:22:44,875 --> 00:22:49,024
And then from a values perspective,
uh, why does it mean something to me?

426
00:22:49,185 --> 00:22:51,955
You know, a job, for example,
and maybe I'm not sure

427
00:22:51,955 --> 00:22:53,575
Catherine yours could be that.

428
00:22:53,575 --> 00:22:57,224
I'm not sure, but you know, a sense of
purpose, uh, contributing to others,

429
00:22:57,494 --> 00:23:01,154
you know, a sense of connection, you
know, all those values that we, uh,

430
00:23:01,204 --> 00:23:04,895
espouse in their life are often taken
away from us when we lose something

431
00:23:04,895 --> 00:23:07,695
or someone, you know, yeah, family.

432
00:23:07,745 --> 00:23:09,124
I mean, you know.

433
00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:13,640
Sometimes people have a sense of family,
uh, obviously, and when someone died

434
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,630
in their family, they, they wonder
about the sense of their family.

435
00:23:18,110 --> 00:23:23,000
Is, is this still a family, you
know, or, or does the family

436
00:23:23,019 --> 00:23:25,310
itself, is that lost, you know?

437
00:23:25,660 --> 00:23:28,759
So there's, yeah, I mean, it
can be quite nuanced, can't it?

438
00:23:28,790 --> 00:23:31,760
But yeah, values are such an
important part of the work.

439
00:23:32,125 --> 00:23:37,725
Uh, helping people acknowledge their loss
again as a first step, we hope, yeah.

440
00:23:39,904 --> 00:23:44,484
Catherine: And from what I've seen
and what I've heard from people as

441
00:23:44,484 --> 00:23:51,704
well, is that people that lose a pet
or a companion animal, that they still

442
00:23:51,935 --> 00:23:53,884
feel that they have loss as well.

443
00:23:54,124 --> 00:23:58,534
And I know that you have a specific
program for pet loss at Griefline.

444
00:23:59,235 --> 00:24:02,890
Talk us a little bit about how
that program You know, the loss

445
00:24:02,890 --> 00:24:07,270
of, of, of a pet or a companion
animal, how that can impact someone.

446
00:24:08,899 --> 00:24:09,270
Bryan: Yeah, you're right.

447
00:24:09,270 --> 00:24:12,030
Griefline has some, some really
valuable work in that space.

448
00:24:12,030 --> 00:24:16,279
Uh, a colleague of mine, Candice
Mace at Griefline, uh, yeah, she's

449
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,970
produced some really good workshops
in relation to pet bereavement.

450
00:24:20,179 --> 00:24:21,169
So significant, isn't it?

451
00:24:21,329 --> 00:24:23,299
And, and why, why is that?

452
00:24:24,159 --> 00:24:25,940
Well, it speaks to
relationship, doesn't it?

453
00:24:26,379 --> 00:24:33,149
You know, grief is the
response to loss, loss hurts.

454
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:33,989
Why?

455
00:24:34,070 --> 00:24:36,029
Because the thing we lost.

456
00:24:36,100 --> 00:24:39,969
Uh, we have a relationship
with, um, whatever that

457
00:24:39,969 --> 00:24:41,139
relationship is, is important.

458
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,649
Even problematic relationships still
can still result in a grief response.

459
00:24:45,730 --> 00:24:47,239
You know, we still grieve that person.

460
00:24:47,819 --> 00:24:52,330
So if we compare that to a close
relationship, a bonded relationship,

461
00:24:52,909 --> 00:24:55,574
uh, I mean, I'm a, I'm a dog person.

462
00:24:55,695 --> 00:24:58,004
My dogs give me
unconditional love every day.

463
00:24:58,784 --> 00:25:03,014
So if we compare that to the kind of
relationships we lose with our human

464
00:25:03,014 --> 00:25:05,024
people, you can see why it's so impactful.

465
00:25:05,904 --> 00:25:09,044
Uh, because these beautiful animals are.

466
00:25:10,090 --> 00:25:11,840
Uh, so connected to us.

467
00:25:11,870 --> 00:25:17,180
They're so bonded to us and yeah, we
lose that sense of immediate connection

468
00:25:17,939 --> 00:25:19,040
because that's what loss is, isn't it?

469
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:24,169
It's, it's the loss of proximity, the
inability to phone someone or to pat

470
00:25:24,169 --> 00:25:26,510
my dog, it's that loss of proximity.

471
00:25:27,210 --> 00:25:29,274
Many people have an injuring
sense of connection.

472
00:25:29,905 --> 00:25:31,375
With their pets or with their people.

473
00:25:31,435 --> 00:25:32,024
Absolutely.

474
00:25:32,024 --> 00:25:36,595
But it's the loss of proximity
to touch, to hug, those things

475
00:25:36,595 --> 00:25:37,665
I think is really powerful.

476
00:25:37,825 --> 00:25:44,165
Again, if a client comes and says, I've
lost a pet, why do I feel this way?

477
00:25:44,645 --> 00:25:47,945
Part of the work is to help them
see, well, this is significant.

478
00:25:48,485 --> 00:25:51,474
In fact, for some people it's just as
significant as other types of losses.

479
00:25:51,595 --> 00:25:52,205
Absolutely.

480
00:25:52,764 --> 00:25:53,054
Yeah.

481
00:25:54,125 --> 00:25:56,655
Catherine: It's interesting because
when you were talking about loss,

482
00:25:57,225 --> 00:25:59,825
I was thinking about a few things.

483
00:26:00,205 --> 00:26:01,465
Uh, and that was.

484
00:26:02,315 --> 00:26:09,015
The habitual behavior that came, uh,
I grew up in a family where my mother

485
00:26:09,665 --> 00:26:14,285
would receive a phone call from her
mother every night at seven o'clock.

486
00:26:15,085 --> 00:26:21,375
And when she died, it was such
a loss at seven o'clock every

487
00:26:21,375 --> 00:26:26,264
night because it's that habitual
connection that was always there.

488
00:26:26,945 --> 00:26:29,665
And then another story.

489
00:26:30,115 --> 00:26:35,835
When you were talking about loss
was I profoundly felt it when my cat

490
00:26:36,004 --> 00:26:42,415
died because the house was so quiet
when you'd walk into it and there

491
00:26:42,415 --> 00:26:49,085
was no animal to greet you or meow
or, you know, we've since now got

492
00:26:49,085 --> 00:26:52,155
a, another cat and another dog, but.

493
00:26:53,535 --> 00:26:59,455
It is that presence and that
unconditional love that I find and

494
00:26:59,455 --> 00:27:03,874
that proximity that you talk about
that was really impactful for me.

495
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:06,020
Bryan: Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

496
00:27:06,020 --> 00:27:06,610
Absolutely.

497
00:27:06,620 --> 00:27:07,540
It makes perfect sense.

498
00:27:07,879 --> 00:27:09,040
That loss is absence.

499
00:27:09,370 --> 00:27:10,149
That's what loss is.

500
00:27:10,149 --> 00:27:11,080
It's the absence of something.

501
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,060
You know, we're kind of aware of
what we have, what's present, but

502
00:27:15,330 --> 00:27:19,649
the absence can be made even more
powerful by the, by the presence.

503
00:27:19,899 --> 00:27:23,149
So I walk into my home and, you
know, my beautiful cat's not there.

504
00:27:23,469 --> 00:27:26,800
I'm aware of that, that absence and
that makes it really, really powerful.

505
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:28,879
Yeah, that habituation
is really interesting.

506
00:27:28,879 --> 00:27:32,485
I mean, I, You know, I can
imagine potentially your mother

507
00:27:32,645 --> 00:27:36,965
going towards the phone at 7pm in
those weeks, months afterwards.

508
00:27:36,995 --> 00:27:37,905
You know, I can imagine that.

509
00:27:38,315 --> 00:27:38,735
Yeah.

510
00:27:38,875 --> 00:27:40,615
The brain kind of says,
Hey, the phone's coming.

511
00:27:40,944 --> 00:27:43,255
Look, I can, you know, lots of
different stories, aren't they?

512
00:27:43,255 --> 00:27:43,734
Like that.

513
00:27:43,795 --> 00:27:49,895
Uh, you know, I've known people that
who, you know, who maintain, you

514
00:27:49,895 --> 00:27:53,875
know, a mobile phone contract when
we used to have them of the person

515
00:27:53,875 --> 00:27:56,215
who has died, they keep paying the
contract and they keep the phone.

516
00:27:57,100 --> 00:27:57,520
Why?

517
00:27:57,550 --> 00:28:01,630
Because they want to have the ability
to call might seem odd to some people,

518
00:28:01,630 --> 00:28:05,360
but for that person, it really works
even for a few weeks, a few months.

519
00:28:05,860 --> 00:28:09,790
You know, ultimately we might do some
work with that, but it's not unusual for

520
00:28:09,790 --> 00:28:14,770
those kinds of really powerful sort of
ways of just hoping for some connection.

521
00:28:15,460 --> 00:28:18,709
I've known people that, you know, for
a few weeks, few months, still set

522
00:28:18,709 --> 00:28:21,070
a table, uh, a place at the table.

523
00:28:21,279 --> 00:28:23,850
They put a knife and fork and
plates out, they still do it.

524
00:28:24,559 --> 00:28:27,050
You know, we might spend some time
on that a bit later on and have

525
00:28:27,050 --> 00:28:30,240
some conversations around that,
but we certainly wouldn't judge it.

526
00:28:30,610 --> 00:28:31,280
Absolutely not.

527
00:28:31,950 --> 00:28:32,980
Again, that's your grief.

528
00:28:34,375 --> 00:28:35,435
What's it doing for you?

529
00:28:36,075 --> 00:28:38,235
What's it doing to you and
how do we work with that?

530
00:28:39,075 --> 00:28:41,855
You know, can grief mold to you
or do you have to mold to grief?

531
00:28:42,165 --> 00:28:45,625
You know, do I have to change my
entire being because of grief?

532
00:28:46,465 --> 00:28:48,035
I've got to change some things probably.

533
00:28:48,035 --> 00:28:49,525
I've got to adjust to this new reality.

534
00:28:49,554 --> 00:28:51,804
But I wonder if grief
can mold to me a bit.

535
00:28:52,354 --> 00:28:56,245
Yeah, the whole idea of grief styles,
you know, what, what's my style of grief?

536
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:57,820
Maybe different to yours, Catherine.

537
00:28:58,260 --> 00:29:01,660
Neither of us are right, I
guess, necessarily, or wrong.

538
00:29:01,660 --> 00:29:05,059
And that's

539
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:10,809
Catherine: an interesting thing, because
when I think that not long ago, there

540
00:29:10,810 --> 00:29:17,720
was a very, you know, strong, cultural,
to wear black when you were mourning.

541
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,580
And that wasn't that long ago,
and I'm sure that's, in some

542
00:29:20,580 --> 00:29:22,220
cultures, that's still appropriate.

543
00:29:22,820 --> 00:29:28,639
But, so we've always, um, You know,
I had that challenge about how does

544
00:29:28,639 --> 00:29:35,399
it define me and what do I change for
grief and what does grief change for me?

545
00:29:35,820 --> 00:29:39,770
So I find that really fascinating
that it's a struggle that you

546
00:29:39,770 --> 00:29:41,249
have to work through with people.

547
00:29:42,709 --> 00:29:43,669
Bryan: Yeah, absolutely.

548
00:29:43,790 --> 00:29:43,899
Yeah.

549
00:29:44,270 --> 00:29:44,729
And I mean.

550
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,550
You know, I think it's worth acknowledging
that none of this is easy, you know, and

551
00:29:48,550 --> 00:29:52,570
we certainly, you know, even in therapy
and counseling, you know, we might use

552
00:29:52,570 --> 00:29:54,160
words and they're just words, aren't they?

553
00:29:54,180 --> 00:29:57,330
You know, they're, they're concepts
and ideas, but personally grief

554
00:29:57,330 --> 00:29:58,450
is the one doing all the work.

555
00:29:58,699 --> 00:29:59,369
Absolutely.

556
00:29:59,779 --> 00:30:04,114
But, uh, you know, sometimes having
a bit of a perspective on grief.

557
00:30:04,255 --> 00:30:06,695
You know, kind of seeing what
this grief is actually doing.

558
00:30:07,145 --> 00:30:09,525
You know, we think about
grief as stress, of course.

559
00:30:09,925 --> 00:30:12,775
Uh, the shock to the body,
the shock to the brain, and

560
00:30:12,775 --> 00:30:13,915
the shock to our psychology.

561
00:30:14,925 --> 00:30:17,064
But for some people, grief
can be seen as a healing.

562
00:30:17,530 --> 00:30:21,620
This is the healing of that terrible
wound that the loss has, has caused.

563
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:23,990
It's painful because it's healing.

564
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,750
That's why it's painful, you know, and for
some people that really helps because they

565
00:30:27,750 --> 00:30:29,520
can kind of see a function in this grief.

566
00:30:29,830 --> 00:30:31,029
Like it must be worth something.

567
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,830
I wouldn't go through this terrible
time if it wasn't worth something.

568
00:30:35,339 --> 00:30:36,190
It must have meaning.

569
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,170
Maybe we can construct the meaning
a little bit, but it must have some

570
00:30:41,170 --> 00:30:46,140
meaning, I think, is a message that some
people really, uh, take quite, quite

571
00:30:46,150 --> 00:30:48,649
strongly from, from, from grief work.

572
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:56,649
I think the other thing, I guess, about
the message around loss and grief is that,

573
00:30:57,010 --> 00:31:02,639
you know, where you are today and your,
your sense of grief in your own world

574
00:31:03,029 --> 00:31:05,589
might define you today, and that's okay.

575
00:31:05,619 --> 00:31:05,939
But.

576
00:31:06,810 --> 00:31:07,920
Yeah, I wonder

577
00:31:10,580 --> 00:31:14,390
for some people they grow from
grief, you know, some people take

578
00:31:14,390 --> 00:31:18,430
grief and I'm kind of thinking that
this podcast is great podcast you

579
00:31:18,430 --> 00:31:20,070
produce might be part of that story.

580
00:31:20,430 --> 00:31:23,120
You take some grief and you go,
I'll do something with that.

581
00:31:23,620 --> 00:31:27,809
Whether I created a wonderful podcast
like this one, whether I plant a tree

582
00:31:27,809 --> 00:31:31,140
in my backyard, whether I try something
different in my life, I'm not sure it's

583
00:31:31,140 --> 00:31:34,440
different for everyone, but some people
take grief and they do something with it.

584
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,440
Uh, as a way of saying, well,
again, this must be worth something,

585
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:40,230
what can I do with this grief?

586
00:31:40,490 --> 00:31:43,820
Maybe not the early stages and maybe
not for everyone and maybe not always,

587
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,870
but it's something that I see quite
often and it's remarkable the way people

588
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,690
use their grief for good, I guess,
to put it that way, Catherine, yeah.

589
00:31:53,489 --> 00:31:59,930
Catherine: And I know for me, part
of the Healey process has been about

590
00:32:01,290 --> 00:32:04,614
reconnecting with my values and.

591
00:32:06,055 --> 00:32:10,935
Yeah, making sure what I could
personally do was something that could

592
00:32:10,935 --> 00:32:16,585
help others, because I don't think
anyone should ever experience, uh,

593
00:32:16,635 --> 00:32:19,344
uncertainty in a very vulnerable time.

594
00:32:19,505 --> 00:32:21,285
Bryan: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

595
00:32:21,505 --> 00:32:21,725
And,

596
00:32:22,855 --> 00:32:23,845
Catherine: sorry, Brian?

597
00:32:24,345 --> 00:32:27,765
Bryan: No, it's just the thought came to
me, uh, work with a client recently and,

598
00:32:28,275 --> 00:32:33,245
and it reminded me of some research we've
done and it, and it spoke about the idea

599
00:32:33,285 --> 00:32:35,885
that, you know, death, death can guide us.

600
00:32:36,395 --> 00:32:37,864
So we know death's coming.

601
00:32:38,575 --> 00:32:42,745
Uh, so for some people that can kind
of frame our life, it can kind of

602
00:32:42,754 --> 00:32:45,905
give us this motivation and drive,
do something with the time we have,

603
00:32:46,415 --> 00:32:48,105
because that's all we have is this time.

604
00:32:48,145 --> 00:32:51,775
So that can be a real driver and grief
can be a driver too for some people.

605
00:32:51,775 --> 00:32:53,595
They, they experience a loss of.

606
00:32:53,885 --> 00:32:57,235
of someone important, of
course, and they go, well, hang

607
00:32:57,235 --> 00:32:58,705
on, I've got, I'm still here.

608
00:32:59,055 --> 00:33:03,065
So what, how do I honor this
grief and do something with it?

609
00:33:03,225 --> 00:33:05,064
Yeah, I, I do see that a lot.

610
00:33:05,585 --> 00:33:07,575
I've seen it with, you know, in
my personal life and I've seen

611
00:33:07,575 --> 00:33:08,565
it in my professional life.

612
00:33:09,135 --> 00:33:10,424
Uh, not easy to do.

613
00:33:10,484 --> 00:33:13,605
And again, not for
everyone, but you do see it.

614
00:33:13,665 --> 00:33:17,245
And often as a grief counselor, I
watch people do remarkable things.

615
00:33:17,355 --> 00:33:19,725
And I wondered to myself, I wonder
if there's grief driving that.

616
00:33:20,265 --> 00:33:20,855
And often there is.

617
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,460
You know, uh, yeah, I wonder if she's,

618
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:27,060
Catherine: it's interesting because.

619
00:33:27,885 --> 00:33:34,515
Each loss is totally unique, as is
each grief, and I lost my father

620
00:33:34,615 --> 00:33:41,064
nearly 11 years ago, and that
didn't cause me to have a podcast.

621
00:33:41,134 --> 00:33:48,749
So it really is dependent on so many
variables around that time, isn't it?

622
00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:50,180
Bryan: Oh, absolutely.

623
00:33:50,180 --> 00:33:54,640
Yeah, grief will come when it comes
and it will have a different message.

624
00:33:54,950 --> 00:33:55,710
Uh, that's right.

625
00:33:55,790 --> 00:33:58,739
Different age, different
development, uh, different, you

626
00:33:58,739 --> 00:33:59,470
know, development stage of our life.

627
00:33:59,470 --> 00:34:01,810
I mean, we're all, we're
all growing up, aren't we?

628
00:34:03,349 --> 00:34:05,690
Catherine, I lost a very dear
friend of mine just two weeks ago.

629
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,069
His name is Frank, a
psychologist, a remarkable man.

630
00:34:10,299 --> 00:34:14,689
And we visited him in the hospital
right at the end, had the privilege

631
00:34:14,689 --> 00:34:15,579
of spending time with him.

632
00:34:16,355 --> 00:34:17,105
And what did he do?

633
00:34:17,445 --> 00:34:22,525
He brought his entire family in, he
invited them all in from all different

634
00:34:22,525 --> 00:34:27,854
parts of the world, essentially, uh, and
said, be together, you know, he sort of,

635
00:34:30,155 --> 00:34:36,005
uh, molded relationships and repaired
relationships, uh, and with his own

636
00:34:36,005 --> 00:34:39,735
children and extended family, an
incredible kind of moment for him and

637
00:34:39,735 --> 00:34:43,315
his family that we had a privilege
of reserving a little bit outside.

638
00:34:44,675 --> 00:34:47,314
And as I got in the car and left the
hospital, knowing that's the last

639
00:34:47,314 --> 00:34:50,374
time I'd see Frank, I thought to
myself, why do we wait to the end?

640
00:34:50,885 --> 00:34:53,765
Like, why, why do I wait to the
end of my life to bring all my

641
00:34:53,765 --> 00:34:54,855
family and friends together?

642
00:34:55,335 --> 00:34:56,285
Why don't I do it every day?

643
00:34:56,285 --> 00:34:58,655
I mean, that's, that's
the message, isn't it?

644
00:34:59,015 --> 00:35:00,645
I know Frank would have if he could have.

645
00:35:00,984 --> 00:35:05,804
He had the opportunity to do it right
at the end, and I'm so grateful that he

646
00:35:05,804 --> 00:35:07,124
could do that for him and his family.

647
00:35:08,285 --> 00:35:11,255
But that's part of the
privilege of this work.

648
00:35:11,655 --> 00:35:15,745
I think it's hearing the stories of
people's loss and saying, hang on, I'm

649
00:35:15,745 --> 00:35:16,865
going to take a message out of that.

650
00:35:17,165 --> 00:35:19,925
I'm going to make my life worthwhile
and bring my family together.

651
00:35:20,445 --> 00:35:21,195
Do I always do it?

652
00:35:21,215 --> 00:35:23,485
Well, probably not well enough,
to be honest with you, Catherine,

653
00:35:23,485 --> 00:35:26,365
but I think that's the message
from other people's grief.

654
00:35:26,495 --> 00:35:27,505
It must be worth something.

655
00:35:28,215 --> 00:35:29,935
Frank's pain had to be worth something.

656
00:35:30,285 --> 00:35:33,015
How do I, as his friend, make
it worth something in my life?

657
00:35:33,454 --> 00:35:36,920
Work in progress, but Yeah,
interesting, isn't it?

658
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:43,860
Catherine: It is, and like you were
saying though, is that your grief

659
00:35:43,860 --> 00:35:46,570
seems to change as you get older.

660
00:35:47,020 --> 00:35:53,330
Would that be, like, like I would
grieve in one way, when I experienced

661
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,990
the death of my grandmother or
grandfather when I was younger.

662
00:35:58,230 --> 00:36:05,110
But then I would experience grief very
differently now as a 46 year old woman

663
00:36:05,470 --> 00:36:12,519
and a mother and a wife and so is
grief and how we respond to grief and

664
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:17,225
loss It's constantly evolving, like it
doesn't always come in this particular

665
00:36:17,225 --> 00:36:20,865
package, like for me personally.

666
00:36:21,985 --> 00:36:22,195
Bryan: Yeah.

667
00:36:22,215 --> 00:36:22,735
I think so.

668
00:36:22,775 --> 00:36:23,644
I think package is a good word.

669
00:36:23,645 --> 00:36:24,535
I like the word you use.

670
00:36:24,535 --> 00:36:24,775
Yeah.

671
00:36:25,015 --> 00:36:27,944
I think it does come in different
packages depending on different stages

672
00:36:27,944 --> 00:36:31,614
of our life and also the relationship
and social context in which we live.

673
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,020
You know, maybe, I'm not sure, but,
you know, when you lost your, your

674
00:36:35,020 --> 00:36:38,740
grandparent, you're obviously younger
and maybe life looked different then.

675
00:36:39,010 --> 00:36:42,720
If the same thing happened today, sadly,
it would look different again because

676
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:47,179
you're a bit older and this is podcast
and your family and life looks different.

677
00:36:47,220 --> 00:36:49,380
So grief, grief is just part of your life.

678
00:36:49,389 --> 00:36:49,879
Of course.

679
00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:50,774
And it, it, it is.

680
00:36:51,055 --> 00:36:55,055
It exists within the context in which we
live and your context changes every day.

681
00:36:55,065 --> 00:37:00,515
So absolutely grief does look different
for different age groups or for

682
00:37:00,735 --> 00:37:02,185
different people at different times.

683
00:37:02,975 --> 00:37:07,095
I wonder too, we do a lot of work with
younger people, I guess, young adults.

684
00:37:07,145 --> 00:37:10,574
Sometimes as sad as their grief
is, they're not necessarily

685
00:37:10,574 --> 00:37:12,034
thinking about their own mortality.

686
00:37:12,514 --> 00:37:15,574
Sometimes they are of course,
but I don't see that as commonly.

687
00:37:15,894 --> 00:37:20,225
Whereas an older person who loses someone,
Often, the conversation often shifts to

688
00:37:20,225 --> 00:37:24,875
their own mortality, you know, you know,
if they could die, hey, maybe I could, I

689
00:37:25,475 --> 00:37:30,325
often see that generalizing, of course,
but so that's just an age, age difference,

690
00:37:30,325 --> 00:37:34,664
I think, maybe as people get older,
maybe they do experience more grief,

691
00:37:34,675 --> 00:37:38,275
just in terms of people around them that
are older too, I guess that can happen.

692
00:37:38,905 --> 00:37:42,505
Yeah, I think the person
who dies too, I mean.

693
00:37:43,430 --> 00:37:47,850
You know, sometimes we can almost
reconcile the reality of what's

694
00:37:47,850 --> 00:37:51,829
happened because of someone's age, you
know, we can kind of say, look, this

695
00:37:51,829 --> 00:37:56,649
is terribly sad and heavy and really
impactful, but I kind of expected

696
00:37:56,650 --> 00:37:59,270
it to happen at some point, whereas.

697
00:37:59,555 --> 00:38:00,835
Someone much younger who dies.

698
00:38:01,075 --> 00:38:03,455
Well, that's, it's a different
reconciliation, isn't it?

699
00:38:03,455 --> 00:38:05,175
Because we think this
should never have happened.

700
00:38:05,695 --> 00:38:08,815
So I think that's another part
of our journey too and how we

701
00:38:08,815 --> 00:38:10,705
might respond along the way.

702
00:38:10,865 --> 00:38:11,235
Yeah.

703
00:38:12,924 --> 00:38:18,964
Catherine: And that makes me think about
based on that concept of how we reconcile

704
00:38:18,965 --> 00:38:28,760
it can sometimes inform how we respond to
it verbally and One incident that I think

705
00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:34,520
of, of an interview that I had recently,
was with a woman who had, uh, her child

706
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:41,365
had died, uh, or baby had died, uh, and,
had not been gone to full, full term.

707
00:38:42,145 --> 00:38:47,045
And she was told, oh well, at
least you have another child.

708
00:38:47,045 --> 00:38:52,589
So it's interesting about that human
way in which we reconcile death, uh,

709
00:38:52,589 --> 00:39:00,110
and, and how we, again, come back to
value about where we, Place that on the

710
00:39:00,220 --> 00:39:05,440
scale, uh, and then how that informs,
I suppose, our language around it.

711
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:12,210
So, with that in mind, what do
you recommend to people, Brian,

712
00:39:12,279 --> 00:39:15,939
about their language when they're
around someone who's grieving?

713
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:18,520
Bryan: Yeah, really good point.

714
00:39:18,610 --> 00:39:21,590
Uh, I'm not sure where I read it,
Catherine, but I read it somewhere

715
00:39:21,590 --> 00:39:24,940
recently that nothing good ever
starts with the word at least, you

716
00:39:24,940 --> 00:39:28,680
know, because you're immediately
minimizing someone's experience.

717
00:39:29,150 --> 00:39:32,919
And you're right, these platitudes that
we use are probably with good intention,

718
00:39:33,530 --> 00:39:35,200
you know, but they can be quite damaging.

719
00:39:36,030 --> 00:39:42,259
You know, uh, yeah, I remember, uh,
yeah, when my uncle died, my dear

720
00:39:42,259 --> 00:39:46,870
uncle, and I remember speaking to
a employer at the time of mine and

721
00:39:47,500 --> 00:39:50,860
explain what happened and their response
was, at least it wasn't your father.

722
00:39:51,510 --> 00:39:53,140
You know, and it wasn't my father.

723
00:39:53,250 --> 00:39:55,980
He was right, but the at least
didn't help me at all because

724
00:39:55,980 --> 00:39:56,900
my uncle is still dogged.

725
00:39:57,310 --> 00:40:01,280
I mean, you know, so it's it's yeah,
those words are language really important.

726
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:08,180
I guess you know to generalize You
know I guess my tip if that's the right

727
00:40:08,180 --> 00:40:16,210
word would would be Not to try to take
away the pain to to not not try to

728
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,595
not try to choose words that you think
you're gonna make the situation better.

729
00:40:19,635 --> 00:40:21,455
Because in reality, you probably can't.

730
00:40:22,085 --> 00:40:27,395
And by doing so, by trying to do so,
or with the best intentions, well, it

731
00:40:27,395 --> 00:40:29,725
may not land very well, potentially.

732
00:40:31,275 --> 00:40:37,054
It seems like, uh, I don't
understand exactly how you feel.

733
00:40:37,495 --> 00:40:39,075
It must be really, really difficult.

734
00:40:39,465 --> 00:40:41,154
I can see how difficult it is for you.

735
00:40:42,324 --> 00:40:43,414
I can see you're in pain.

736
00:40:43,654 --> 00:40:46,184
Instead of acknowledging
that pain, I'm here for you.

737
00:40:47,950 --> 00:40:52,590
Or I'm going to do something practical
for you, you know, uh, I'm going to go

738
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,690
and do that work for you or whatever
it might be, rather than try to

739
00:40:55,690 --> 00:40:57,790
take away the pain, just be present.

740
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,019
Griefline has this great tagline,
one of them is, you know,

741
00:41:01,389 --> 00:41:03,990
uh, be present, not perfect.

742
00:41:04,369 --> 00:41:07,780
And that's the message, just be present,
just be there, rather than try to take

743
00:41:07,780 --> 00:41:10,850
it away, because those platitudes are
really dangerous, I think, or can be.

744
00:41:11,420 --> 00:41:11,880
Uh.

745
00:41:12,925 --> 00:41:16,095
Think people often say things to
Catherine, like I know how you feel.

746
00:41:16,665 --> 00:41:20,725
I've got a real dislike for
that line because I want to

747
00:41:20,735 --> 00:41:21,605
say, well, no, you don't.

748
00:41:22,165 --> 00:41:24,015
You might have a grief story of your own.

749
00:41:24,215 --> 00:41:24,665
Absolutely.

750
00:41:24,665 --> 00:41:26,125
And I can see you trying to be empathetic.

751
00:41:26,325 --> 00:41:26,915
Absolutely.

752
00:41:26,945 --> 00:41:29,554
But you don't know their grief
because only they had the

753
00:41:29,554 --> 00:41:30,565
relationship with that person.

754
00:41:30,755 --> 00:41:31,395
Only they did.

755
00:41:31,655 --> 00:41:32,245
No one else did.

756
00:41:32,275 --> 00:41:33,535
So, yeah.

757
00:41:34,155 --> 00:41:37,255
And, and I guess if you're going to
be present, if you're going to say

758
00:41:37,255 --> 00:41:41,615
to your friend who's lost someone
special, I can see how painful this is.

759
00:41:42,655 --> 00:41:43,105
I'm here.

760
00:41:44,065 --> 00:41:50,085
I guess my encouragement would be to be
there because often we see it, don't we,

761
00:41:50,255 --> 00:41:54,795
you know, where people are early stages
of grief or early phases of grief when

762
00:41:54,954 --> 00:41:58,344
someone's just died, you know, everyone's
around, you know, people are cooking

763
00:41:58,345 --> 00:42:01,975
meals and mowing lawns and washing cars
and all sorts of things and then the

764
00:42:01,975 --> 00:42:04,184
days and weeks go on and months go on.

765
00:42:04,565 --> 00:42:08,265
I see it with my clients, those
that I work with for weeks, months.

766
00:42:08,555 --> 00:42:09,725
I see the difference.

767
00:42:09,795 --> 00:42:10,955
They often report early stages.

768
00:42:11,585 --> 00:42:12,425
Lots of support.

769
00:42:12,505 --> 00:42:16,855
And then as the weeks and months go
on, the visitors just less and less.

770
00:42:17,365 --> 00:42:20,975
So rather than try to say the
right things, just try to be there,

771
00:42:21,145 --> 00:42:22,305
I guess, is the encouragement.

772
00:42:22,885 --> 00:42:24,165
And be prepared for that answer.

773
00:42:24,165 --> 00:42:26,185
I mean, if I say to
someone, how are you today?

774
00:42:26,265 --> 00:42:28,935
Be prepared for the answer that
may not be, I'm fine, thanks.

775
00:42:29,345 --> 00:42:30,235
It may be something different.

776
00:42:30,644 --> 00:42:34,535
And are you sort of emotionally
I'm ready for that right now.

777
00:42:35,005 --> 00:42:37,955
Are you psychologically prepared for
that response for someone's grief?

778
00:42:38,225 --> 00:42:39,715
If you're not, that's okay.

779
00:42:39,965 --> 00:42:41,535
Maybe ask that question a bit later on.

780
00:42:42,775 --> 00:42:45,465
Yeah, so many platitudes Katherine.

781
00:42:45,465 --> 00:42:48,605
I mean, there's so many examples out there
and I think also the, I mean, they're

782
00:42:48,605 --> 00:42:49,514
done with good intention aren't they?

783
00:42:49,514 --> 00:42:51,404
I don't think anyone goes
out to kind of, Yeah.

784
00:42:51,785 --> 00:42:54,605
You know, want to hurt people
more, if that's possible.

785
00:42:54,835 --> 00:42:58,565
I think they just don't get the
grief because how can you, you know,

786
00:42:58,565 --> 00:42:59,925
you're not in that grief story.

787
00:43:00,245 --> 00:43:02,765
The real difference between sympathy
and empathy isn't there, you know,

788
00:43:02,765 --> 00:43:06,784
you can feel sorry for someone, uh,
and that's kind of nice, uh, but,

789
00:43:07,285 --> 00:43:08,874
uh, it can kind of diminish them.

790
00:43:08,934 --> 00:43:13,015
It can kind of make the person
feel, Lesser, you know, like

791
00:43:13,555 --> 00:43:14,235
what's up wrong with me.

792
00:43:14,235 --> 00:43:15,355
You're feeling sorry for me.

793
00:43:15,495 --> 00:43:18,935
You know, empathy is far better
if you can get it, you know?

794
00:43:20,495 --> 00:43:25,144
Catherine: It's interesting that you
use those two words because for me

795
00:43:25,175 --> 00:43:30,524
personally, like you and you were
just telling the story about Frank,

796
00:43:31,604 --> 00:43:33,635
I'm not about to say sorry to you.

797
00:43:33,975 --> 00:43:37,375
And I've only realized that.

798
00:43:38,235 --> 00:43:45,525
Since I've started doing this job and I
feel really uncomfortable to say to people

799
00:43:45,535 --> 00:43:51,585
when they've their loved ones died, I'm
sorry, you know, that you're experiencing

800
00:43:51,594 --> 00:43:54,694
that, or I'm sorry to hear that.

801
00:43:55,755 --> 00:44:00,255
I just stop because I don't know
what, whether they, I should

802
00:44:00,255 --> 00:44:03,325
be sorry, or I should be sorry
because they may be pleased.

803
00:44:03,805 --> 00:44:06,845
I don't know what their relationship
is or what they're thinking.

804
00:44:06,845 --> 00:44:08,409
So.

805
00:44:08,990 --> 00:44:15,470
I've now gone for the, I don't
say anything, uh, or what I

806
00:44:15,470 --> 00:44:20,100
do say is, well, how are you?

807
00:44:21,090 --> 00:44:23,910
Is there anything I can do to support you?

808
00:44:25,839 --> 00:44:26,679
Bryan: Yeah, absolutely.

809
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:26,979
Yeah.

810
00:44:27,530 --> 00:44:28,489
I can see the distinction there.

811
00:44:28,499 --> 00:44:29,460
You made a clear distinction.

812
00:44:30,019 --> 00:44:30,459
That's right.

813
00:44:30,829 --> 00:44:35,010
Uh, and, and even if the person is,
you know, special to them and let's

814
00:44:35,260 --> 00:44:36,980
assume that's often the case, of course.

815
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:37,660
Yeah.

816
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:39,440
I've, I'm sorry for you.

817
00:44:39,775 --> 00:44:43,505
Can kind of diminish the person, but
then it doesn't do anything else.

818
00:44:44,055 --> 00:44:45,465
It's almost like, I feel sorry for you.

819
00:44:45,465 --> 00:44:48,115
Then I walk away and you kind of
think, well, thanks very much.

820
00:44:48,735 --> 00:44:50,435
That your sympathy didn't really help me.

821
00:44:50,945 --> 00:44:51,145
I

822
00:44:51,185 --> 00:44:55,554
Catherine: feel it's me
projecting onto them.

823
00:44:55,715 --> 00:44:56,595
So I feel better.

824
00:44:57,565 --> 00:44:58,544
Bryan: I think you're on spot on there.

825
00:44:58,745 --> 00:45:01,265
I think that's probably again,
with a good intention, I think.

826
00:45:01,265 --> 00:45:04,555
And when some people might say, you know,
I've had people say, oh, I don't mind

827
00:45:04,555 --> 00:45:09,609
that because at least, at least I know
people are thinking of me and there's I.

828
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:10,400
We're all different.

829
00:45:10,420 --> 00:45:12,410
We all do things differently, and
I'm not saying this is the right way

830
00:45:12,410 --> 00:45:17,540
to do it, but when I begin some time
with a client in a grief, I'll never

831
00:45:17,540 --> 00:45:19,410
say, I'm sorry for your loss, ever.

832
00:45:19,990 --> 00:45:22,160
I'll always say, I acknowledge your loss.

833
00:45:22,770 --> 00:45:23,900
Uh, I acknowledge.

834
00:45:23,900 --> 00:45:25,200
Catherine: Yeah, that's a nice way.

835
00:45:25,540 --> 00:45:26,800
Bryan: Just to hold that for a moment.

836
00:45:26,910 --> 00:45:30,820
And quite often it's
responded to quite openly.

837
00:45:30,890 --> 00:45:33,620
You know, sometimes people
say no one's ever said that.

838
00:45:34,330 --> 00:45:37,489
No one's actually acknowledged
what this loss is, but it can,

839
00:45:37,559 --> 00:45:38,830
and it can open that conversation.

840
00:45:38,830 --> 00:45:43,479
Uh, Catherine, I really respect
what you did earlier on this point.

841
00:45:43,479 --> 00:45:44,389
You use Frank's name.

842
00:45:44,869 --> 00:45:45,900
Thanks for remembering that.

843
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:47,350
And, and, but thanks for using it.

844
00:45:47,420 --> 00:45:49,090
And that's a really important message.

845
00:45:49,510 --> 00:45:54,150
Uh, if someone has experienced
a significant loss, maybe

846
00:45:54,150 --> 00:45:55,230
one thing you could do is.

847
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,110
Be open to sharing the story, you
know, I'd like to know about him.

848
00:45:59,280 --> 00:45:59,620
Yeah.

849
00:45:59,660 --> 00:46:02,990
But if you, if you feel you'd like
to tell me about it, you know, that

850
00:46:02,990 --> 00:46:07,600
kind of sharing of grief of the grief
story can on its own merits be very

851
00:46:07,620 --> 00:46:09,870
therapeutic, even with friends and family.

852
00:46:10,230 --> 00:46:10,710
Yeah.

853
00:46:10,785 --> 00:46:12,280
Do you mind if I use his name?

854
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:13,945
Is it okay if I talk about him?

855
00:46:14,305 --> 00:46:15,265
Would you like to talk about him?

856
00:46:15,275 --> 00:46:19,285
You know, those kinds of, you know, that
can be a really helpful strategy as well.

857
00:46:19,624 --> 00:46:24,474
Uh, rather than, again, I feel sorry
for you and I do nothing else, you know.

858
00:46:24,804 --> 00:46:25,264
Yeah.

859
00:46:25,505 --> 00:46:26,755
Be open to that conversation.

860
00:46:28,004 --> 00:46:30,964
Often people in their own family, unless
you may have experienced this, I'm not

861
00:46:30,964 --> 00:46:35,755
sure, but often people in their own
circle, they have the sense that, you

862
00:46:35,755 --> 00:46:39,065
know, we've talked about it too much,
like they have this sense that I can't

863
00:46:39,065 --> 00:46:41,215
keep talking about this person because.

864
00:46:42,195 --> 00:46:46,695
People are sort of, you know, they've
done it and they want a break from it.

865
00:46:47,245 --> 00:46:50,315
So by talking with someone else
outside my circle, I've got

866
00:46:50,315 --> 00:46:51,485
this freedom to keep sharing.

867
00:46:51,945 --> 00:46:55,915
Um, that might not be an accurate
perception, you know, an accurate reality.

868
00:46:56,035 --> 00:46:58,644
People might not be sick of talking about
it, but that might be their perception.

869
00:46:59,015 --> 00:47:01,704
So being a person that someone can
say, Hey, let's talk about Frank, or

870
00:47:01,704 --> 00:47:05,595
let's talk about Whoever, I think, can
be quite a nice way to be supportive.

871
00:47:06,115 --> 00:47:09,485
Uh, again, returning to my mate Frank,
uh, I know that there are people

872
00:47:09,485 --> 00:47:12,758
in his community who went and kind
of, I think, mowed lawns and took

873
00:47:12,758 --> 00:47:16,725
his trash to the tip and, you know,
they didn't have to say anything.

874
00:47:18,035 --> 00:47:21,805
They were just there and, you know, You
could argue that's probably more powerful.

875
00:47:22,095 --> 00:47:25,145
But I think also, I guess to carry
that point along, Catherine, too,

876
00:47:26,415 --> 00:47:29,475
maybe we would rather someone
say something than, than to be so

877
00:47:29,485 --> 00:47:32,185
afraid that they don't do anything.

878
00:47:32,285 --> 00:47:34,785
I guess there's that risk too,
isn't there, that someone might

879
00:47:34,795 --> 00:47:37,904
say, I won't approach Brian or
Catherine, I won't even make a phone

880
00:47:37,905 --> 00:47:40,715
call or send a message because I
don't want to say the wrong thing.

881
00:47:40,825 --> 00:47:43,925
So, because of that, again,
with the right intentions,

882
00:47:43,935 --> 00:47:45,015
I'll stay right away from them.

883
00:47:45,645 --> 00:47:47,035
That could probably be just as damaging.

884
00:47:47,580 --> 00:47:50,040
Um, work out the balance
in between somewhere.

885
00:47:50,300 --> 00:47:50,640
Yeah.

886
00:47:50,850 --> 00:47:51,420
Catherine: Yeah.

887
00:47:51,700 --> 00:47:57,689
I have heard a story whereby a woman was
walking down the street and a neighbor

888
00:47:57,690 --> 00:48:03,250
crossed the road because they had a
loved one die and obviously they felt

889
00:48:03,250 --> 00:48:05,570
uncomfortable and didn't know what to say.

890
00:48:05,570 --> 00:48:10,890
Um, But the thing that stuck in the
woman's memory was that person that

891
00:48:10,890 --> 00:48:12,990
was a neighbor that crossed the road.

892
00:48:14,030 --> 00:48:18,969
Uh, and again, I think sometimes what
you were saying about intentions,

893
00:48:19,650 --> 00:48:26,029
sometimes they can be misunderstood or
not land where you expected them to land.

894
00:48:26,969 --> 00:48:27,659
Bryan: Yeah, that's true.

895
00:48:27,659 --> 00:48:27,929
Isn't it?

896
00:48:28,609 --> 00:48:28,829
Yeah.

897
00:48:28,830 --> 00:48:29,095
Absolutely.

898
00:48:29,095 --> 00:48:29,361
And

899
00:48:29,361 --> 00:48:30,158
Catherine: tell me, Brian.

900
00:48:30,158 --> 00:48:30,423
Yeah.

901
00:48:30,423 --> 00:48:30,689
Yeah.

902
00:48:30,689 --> 00:48:30,954
Yeah.

903
00:48:31,595 --> 00:48:39,975
When does someone who is supporting
someone who has lost a loved one, at

904
00:48:39,975 --> 00:48:46,765
what point in time do we sort of need
to talk to them about maybe going and

905
00:48:46,835 --> 00:48:49,095
seeing someone about getting support?

906
00:48:49,465 --> 00:48:57,044
What are the sort of, uh, I suppose
unhealthy, for want of a bit of term, to

907
00:48:57,224 --> 00:49:00,454
be displaying grief that may need support?

908
00:49:00,464 --> 00:49:01,084
It's a

909
00:49:03,164 --> 00:49:03,804
Bryan: really good question.

910
00:49:04,270 --> 00:49:06,120
Yeah, really good question.

911
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:09,110
And probably not a question
with a completely clear

912
00:49:09,150 --> 00:49:10,310
direct answer to be honest.

913
00:49:10,350 --> 00:49:13,460
I guess one way to answer that
would be that the support from a

914
00:49:13,510 --> 00:49:18,320
counsellor's perspective is likely
to be different at different points.

915
00:49:18,330 --> 00:49:22,780
So, you know, if someone came,
say, to our service, Grapevine, for

916
00:49:22,780 --> 00:49:27,269
example, within a few weeks of someone
dying, we're holding space for them.

917
00:49:27,279 --> 00:49:31,720
We're probably, You know, helping them
in a psychological first aid, helping

918
00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:35,920
with a heavy emotion, helping us navigate
the next 10 minutes kind of sense.

919
00:49:36,770 --> 00:49:41,240
A few months down the track, we're
probably moving into a, uh, a more

920
00:49:41,240 --> 00:49:44,120
traditional, if I can use that word,
sort of counseling relationship where

921
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:48,649
we're exploring thoughts and feelings
and we're working out how to navigate

922
00:49:48,879 --> 00:49:50,959
heavy emotions and still navigate.

923
00:49:51,285 --> 00:49:52,435
Our life, I guess.

924
00:49:52,445 --> 00:49:57,345
So there's a distinction when someone
may come to a form of therapy.

925
00:49:57,345 --> 00:49:58,015
Absolutely.

926
00:49:58,565 --> 00:50:02,795
Uh, there's some thinking that,
you know, to move into a grief

927
00:50:02,795 --> 00:50:06,394
counseling space, we're probably
coming in best about six months.

928
00:50:06,744 --> 00:50:10,114
That's some thinking because by
that stage, we've probably got

929
00:50:10,115 --> 00:50:14,015
a good idea of what our grief is
doing, what our grief looks like.

930
00:50:14,055 --> 00:50:18,095
And then we can actually spend
some time with a counselor or

931
00:50:18,105 --> 00:50:19,334
psychologist or social worker.

932
00:50:20,215 --> 00:50:23,195
Knowing what a brief looks like
and kind of help navigate from

933
00:50:23,355 --> 00:50:27,515
there, whereas you become a bit
earlier, very welcome to do that.

934
00:50:27,535 --> 00:50:31,314
But we don't always know what grief looks
like yet because it's such early stages.

935
00:50:31,314 --> 00:50:34,184
And, and as you know, you're
kind of navigating the

936
00:50:34,184 --> 00:50:35,804
practical parts of grief too.

937
00:50:36,064 --> 00:50:36,995
So different for everyone.

938
00:50:37,035 --> 00:50:37,594
Absolutely.

939
00:50:37,594 --> 00:50:42,065
And, and, you know, I think, you
know, in a therapeutic space, what

940
00:50:42,065 --> 00:50:44,965
would tend to happen is, you know, if
someone came to our service or another

941
00:50:44,965 --> 00:50:49,925
service, we would just, I guess, help
them assess where the grief's up to and

942
00:50:49,925 --> 00:50:51,605
then frame some support around that.

943
00:50:52,115 --> 00:50:55,015
It might be that someone comes today
and has a couple of sessions and we

944
00:50:55,015 --> 00:50:57,845
talk through what grief looks like
now, and then we might schedule

945
00:50:57,854 --> 00:51:01,065
something for a few months down the
track, come back then, and then we'll

946
00:51:01,145 --> 00:51:03,335
see what has changed in our grief.

947
00:51:03,895 --> 00:51:05,740
Um, Again, very individual, isn't it?

948
00:51:05,810 --> 00:51:06,260
Uh,

949
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:12,190
there is the concept in, in
grief work of, of stuckness, you

950
00:51:12,190 --> 00:51:13,700
know, being stuck in our grief.

951
00:51:14,060 --> 00:51:20,160
And that generally talks to, you know,
significant impairment on our life.

952
00:51:20,579 --> 00:51:25,899
And it's sort of a yearning for
the person that is continuing

953
00:51:25,899 --> 00:51:27,459
in such a way that's so heavy.

954
00:51:27,865 --> 00:51:29,305
that we're stuck.

955
00:51:29,545 --> 00:51:32,635
Uh, and I know it's not a very
clinical word, but it's a word we use.

956
00:51:33,245 --> 00:51:36,675
So I guess that's the measure for,
for often for people, you know,

957
00:51:37,045 --> 00:51:41,004
am I navigating the everyday as
best I can as well as grieving,

958
00:51:42,074 --> 00:51:44,015
then we're doing the best we can.

959
00:51:44,415 --> 00:51:49,565
If the everyday is so impaired that
it's just not functioning, but grief's

960
00:51:49,575 --> 00:51:53,385
still there, well then maybe it's the
everyday and the grief that we need to

961
00:51:53,385 --> 00:51:54,955
bring into counselling to talk about.

962
00:51:55,845 --> 00:51:57,375
I mean, not everyone
needs grief counseling.

963
00:51:57,445 --> 00:51:58,215
Absolutely not.

964
00:51:58,335 --> 00:52:02,245
Some people navigate their grief through
the social support, through their

965
00:52:02,245 --> 00:52:06,094
own sense of what they do, through
workplaces, all different types of things.

966
00:52:06,124 --> 00:52:10,704
But if it's, if you feel like
you're stuck and the grief is not

967
00:52:10,704 --> 00:52:13,824
shifting or changing, then yeah.

968
00:52:14,350 --> 00:52:16,730
That's the encouragement to think,
okay, maybe I could talk to someone

969
00:52:16,730 --> 00:52:20,500
about being stuck, I guess, and
see what we can navigate through.

970
00:52:20,930 --> 00:52:24,000
Or, and the other thing, too, is if
there's no one in your community that

971
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,440
you can talk to about your grief, well,
that's an option for counselling, too,

972
00:52:27,510 --> 00:52:31,059
because it doesn't have to be, you know, a
therapeutic space, it can just be a space

973
00:52:31,059 --> 00:52:32,619
to sit and talk, if I can put it that way.

974
00:52:32,940 --> 00:52:36,910
So, you know, if someone's alone
in their grief, feels isolated in

975
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:40,620
their grief, which is really common,
yeah, maybe think about talking

976
00:52:40,620 --> 00:52:42,070
to someone about that isolation.

977
00:52:42,390 --> 00:52:42,820
Catherine: Um,

978
00:52:42,970 --> 00:52:43,620
Bryan: that's really important too.

979
00:52:44,420 --> 00:52:44,750
Yeah,

980
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:50,180
Catherine: and I suppose the other thing
that comes to mind for me is then the

981
00:52:50,240 --> 00:52:58,449
aspect of the, the, if there's showing
behaviours of self harm or anything along

982
00:52:58,450 --> 00:53:03,980
that black line, you know, obviously,
Reaching out and seeking support then.

983
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:05,260
Bryan: Yeah, absolutely.

984
00:53:05,260 --> 00:53:06,420
Oh, of course, absolutely.

985
00:53:06,420 --> 00:53:09,699
And we would always encourage people,
you know, if you're feeling, if you

986
00:53:09,699 --> 00:53:15,450
have those sort of, uh, feelings of, of
self harm or, or, or suicidal ideation,

987
00:53:15,470 --> 00:53:20,140
anything like those, absolutely go to
your GP, uh, reach out to a psychologist,

988
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:25,015
reach out to us at Griefline, and,
you know, Those people will work

989
00:53:25,015 --> 00:53:26,665
out the best way to support someone.

990
00:53:27,065 --> 00:53:30,795
An example might be that, you know, you
may be experiencing certain feelings

991
00:53:30,795 --> 00:53:34,544
and thoughts and that might be best
sort of managed, you know, medically,

992
00:53:34,545 --> 00:53:37,265
maybe, you know, through your GP
or a psychologist as an example.

993
00:53:37,315 --> 00:53:40,495
And then you may come to us a
bit later on for some grief work.

994
00:53:40,565 --> 00:53:41,434
That often happens.

995
00:53:41,784 --> 00:53:41,984
Yep.

996
00:53:42,255 --> 00:53:42,725
Absolutely.

997
00:53:42,725 --> 00:53:45,545
So yeah, be open to seeking that support.

998
00:53:45,925 --> 00:53:50,185
Uh, grief line will, will assess, you
know, what might work best for you.

999
00:53:50,185 --> 00:53:53,355
And we'll either keep you with us and work
well with you, or we might refer you to

1000
00:53:53,355 --> 00:53:55,294
another service depending on suitability.

1001
00:53:55,704 --> 00:53:56,164
Yeah.

1002
00:53:56,755 --> 00:53:56,945
Yeah.

1003
00:53:56,975 --> 00:53:59,335
Other encouragement, I guess, if
you are going to seek some help

1004
00:53:59,495 --> 00:54:02,814
and it's, and you have experienced
significant loss, you know, whoever

1005
00:54:02,814 --> 00:54:05,034
that help seeker is, whoever they are.

1006
00:54:05,154 --> 00:54:08,904
Um, and there's lots of people out
there that can help ask the question,

1007
00:54:08,914 --> 00:54:10,054
you know, do you work with grief?

1008
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,230
You know, do you have a sense of grief?

1009
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:14,160
Because some people just
don't work in that space.

1010
00:54:14,510 --> 00:54:16,620
And that's okay, you
know, ask the question.

1011
00:54:16,810 --> 00:54:21,240
Just so you know that you're walking in
with that kind of theme sitting there,

1012
00:54:21,609 --> 00:54:24,300
if that's what's what's working for you.

1013
00:54:24,620 --> 00:54:26,470
Of course, grief intersects
with other things, doesn't it?

1014
00:54:26,490 --> 00:54:30,449
Grief intersects with people's
existing mental illness diagnosis

1015
00:54:30,449 --> 00:54:31,486
or their physical illness diagnosis.

1016
00:54:31,486 --> 00:54:33,660
It intersects with all of that.

1017
00:54:33,720 --> 00:54:38,260
So, it could be that someone, you know, is
best served by helping manage that first.

1018
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:40,910
And then the grief comes secondary,
if I can put it that way.

1019
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:44,609
Or we work concurrently and do
a bit of both at the same time.

1020
00:54:44,610 --> 00:54:45,320
But yeah.

1021
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,879
Catherine: And what I found,
what you were just saying there,

1022
00:54:48,879 --> 00:54:53,390
Brian, the importance of finding
someone who specialises in grief.

1023
00:54:53,550 --> 00:54:53,700
Bryan: Yeah.

1024
00:54:54,069 --> 00:54:57,050
Catherine: Made sure that I found
someone who specialises in trauma

1025
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:00,110
when I after my car accident.

1026
00:55:00,390 --> 00:55:04,040
And the difference that it makes to
actually have someone who's an expert

1027
00:55:04,380 --> 00:55:07,710
in that particular area is just amazing.

1028
00:55:08,330 --> 00:55:13,829
And I think, you know, the services that
Greenfline offices, I'm sorry, offers

1029
00:55:14,429 --> 00:55:16,369
is really quite diverse, isn't it?

1030
00:55:16,579 --> 00:55:21,319
So you've got everything from
online communities to groups,

1031
00:55:21,649 --> 00:55:23,859
to the, the number to call.

1032
00:55:24,059 --> 00:55:27,020
You've also got a special
specific over 50s line, is it?

1033
00:55:28,550 --> 00:55:30,070
Bryan: Yeah, at the moment, absolutely.

1034
00:55:30,090 --> 00:55:31,250
So grief line, lots of things.

1035
00:55:31,250 --> 00:55:33,820
You're right, there's a
helpline, uh, every day of the

1036
00:55:33,820 --> 00:55:36,089
year, 8am to 8pm, free service.

1037
00:55:36,100 --> 00:55:39,080
You can call it as many times as you
like and you'll, you'll be connected

1038
00:55:39,089 --> 00:55:43,769
with a, uh, a really well trained,
uh, volunteer who has training

1039
00:55:43,850 --> 00:55:45,670
in, in grief and loss support.

1040
00:55:45,670 --> 00:55:49,660
Some people call that line several
times a day or twice a week or

1041
00:55:49,660 --> 00:55:51,040
once a month, whatever it might be.

1042
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:55,270
So, That's a really good service
attached to that is a callback service.

1043
00:55:55,270 --> 00:56:00,959
We can actually book in a time with one
of the helpline service online forums.

1044
00:56:01,060 --> 00:56:05,040
And yeah, we have a nationwide
group support groups that we run.

1045
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:07,149
They run every week, a
couple of times a week.

1046
00:56:07,199 --> 00:56:10,150
And then we have in certain areas,
we have our individual counseling

1047
00:56:10,210 --> 00:56:13,434
as well that we do one on one and
that does depend on where you are.

1048
00:56:13,545 --> 00:56:17,445
Uh, a little bit, but I certainly
encourage people griefline.

1049
00:56:17,445 --> 00:56:17,750
org.

1050
00:56:17,750 --> 00:56:21,205
au because you can look at all
the resources and you can always

1051
00:56:21,205 --> 00:56:22,735
call and say, Hey, this is.

1052
00:56:23,215 --> 00:56:27,055
What's happening for me and the people
at Groovline will help guide you to

1053
00:56:27,105 --> 00:56:32,115
whether one of our services fits well
or another service that might be more

1054
00:56:32,115 --> 00:56:34,095
in line with what's happening for you.

1055
00:56:34,595 --> 00:56:36,085
Some really good resources too.

1056
00:56:36,215 --> 00:56:39,984
Uh, you know, like paper resource,
you know, uh, resource you can

1057
00:56:39,985 --> 00:56:41,575
access, download and read about.

1058
00:56:41,715 --> 00:56:42,055
Yeah.

1059
00:56:42,115 --> 00:56:44,955
And look, it could be that someone
comes to Groovline for one session.

1060
00:56:45,355 --> 00:56:48,185
They have a session with the counsellor,
they talk about the grief, they

1061
00:56:48,185 --> 00:56:50,325
navigate a little bit, and that's it.

1062
00:56:50,715 --> 00:56:51,345
That's okay.

1063
00:56:51,735 --> 00:56:55,495
Others will stay for, you know, quite
a while, but it depends on the person,

1064
00:56:55,565 --> 00:56:57,265
you know, and the circumstances.

1065
00:56:57,295 --> 00:56:58,015
But yeah, reach out.

1066
00:56:58,015 --> 00:56:59,075
I guess that's the message, isn't it?

1067
00:56:59,105 --> 00:57:02,475
Reach out if you think that this is
heavy enough that it warrants it.

1068
00:57:02,890 --> 00:57:05,730
You know, it's got to be heavy,
but is it impacting you so much

1069
00:57:05,730 --> 00:57:08,670
that, you know, maybe some support
to navigate that might be helpful.

1070
00:57:09,890 --> 00:57:10,310
Catherine: Yeah.

1071
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:14,859
And I was just looking out while you
were speaking, Brian, it's the amazing

1072
00:57:14,910 --> 00:57:21,520
book that you can download and it's
actually talking exactly Today, and

1073
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:26,540
that's how to support a grieving friend,
and that's the e book that Sal and

1074
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:31,710
Ian, who I believe are your ambassadors
from Good Morning, the podcast and the

1075
00:57:31,710 --> 00:57:37,110
book, they uh, have, have developed
that, and that is an exceptionally

1076
00:57:37,110 --> 00:57:41,960
good resource and we'll also uh, have
that on the show notes episode as well.

1077
00:57:42,350 --> 00:57:42,890
Bryan: Fantastic.

1078
00:57:43,460 --> 00:57:43,760
Yeah.

1079
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:45,300
And then lots of minutes of fantastic.

1080
00:57:45,330 --> 00:57:45,720
Yeah.

1081
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:46,280
Good morning.

1082
00:57:46,310 --> 00:57:47,220
Podcast is brilliant.

1083
00:57:47,460 --> 00:57:49,860
They do so well at just
communicating about grief.

1084
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:51,690
And I think that's kind
of the message, isn't it?

1085
00:57:51,790 --> 00:57:52,610
And that's what we're doing today.

1086
00:57:53,020 --> 00:57:57,450
You know, we communicate about
grief to, to send, sell the message

1087
00:57:57,450 --> 00:57:59,490
that it's worth talking about.

1088
00:57:59,959 --> 00:58:01,189
It's a universal experience.

1089
00:58:01,229 --> 00:58:05,200
We will all experience grief of some
form at some point in their life.

1090
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:08,489
I guess that's almost a guarantee,
not necessarily death, isn't it?

1091
00:58:08,860 --> 00:58:13,090
Related grief could be anything, as
we've discussed, but yeah, if we can talk

1092
00:58:13,100 --> 00:58:16,790
about it and share how we're feeling,
well, that's part of the journey.

1093
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:18,330
It doesn't have to be anything intimate.

1094
00:58:18,390 --> 00:58:20,160
You don't have to tell
someone exactly how you feel.

1095
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:22,310
It could just be, look,
there's grief around today.

1096
00:58:22,809 --> 00:58:24,580
Uh, grief's here, grief's heavy.

1097
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:28,270
That might be enough for someone to hear
that message and just be able to provide

1098
00:58:28,470 --> 00:58:29,820
that support that we've spoken about.

1099
00:58:30,210 --> 00:58:30,950
Yeah, fantastic.

1100
00:58:32,505 --> 00:58:35,295
Catherine: Well, I can't thank you
enough for your time today, Brian,

1101
00:58:35,605 --> 00:58:40,425
and the personal stories you've shared
and the advice that you've given.

1102
00:58:40,845 --> 00:58:41,785
Thank you so much.

1103
00:58:43,130 --> 00:58:44,320
Bryan: Catherine, thanks so
much for having us, hope it's

1104
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:46,550
helped in some way and it's a
real privilege to talk with you.

1105
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:46,790
Thank you.

1106
00:58:49,220 --> 00:58:52,640
Catherine: We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,

1107
00:58:52,950 --> 00:58:54,520
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1108
00:58:55,470 --> 00:58:59,730
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1109
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