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About this episode
Annie Whitlocke is a death doula with a rich history of embracing life’s trials with an open heart.
Annie shares her profound journey from a turbulent childhood through to her multiple personal tragedies, including loss of multiple husbands and struggles with miscarriages.
These challenges have uniquely equipped her to assist others at the end of their lives. Her story is one of transformation; from pain and isolation to finding her calling in helping others face death with dignity and peace.
Annie explores how Buddhist teachings have shaped her understanding of death as a natural part of life.
Whether you're someone dealing with a terminal diagnosis, a caregiver, or just curious about buddhism and the death doula profession, this episode offers valuable insights into the compassionate care needed at life’s end.
Thank you for joining us on this journey through life's final chapter. Remember, discussing and preparing for death isn't morbid—it’s a way to honour our lives and the lives of those we love.
Remember; You may not be ready to die, but at least you can be prepared.
Take care,
Catherine
Show notes
Guest Bio
![Podcast Guest - Image](https://criticalinfo.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/IMGP2918-scaled.jpg)
Buddhist Death Doula
In a previous life, Annie was Managing Director, owner, designer and buyer for an import export business, Anjian Australia for 17 years, She sold Anjian in 2010 to focus on her main interests.
The most important one was as carer to her aging mother. Annie was able to be there for her, while her mind, lifestyle, attitude and memories changed through Alzheimer's. Annie’s Mum, died in Sept 2015, it was a peaceful and pain free death.
Annie is a Team Leader for Social Health Australia, a Spiritual/Pastoral Carer, lay Buddhist chaplain, trainer and supervisor of Buddhist Spiritual carers at Monash Medical Centre, Meditation instructor at Moorabbin Oncology, Death Café Facilitator since 2013 and has spoken on the Buddhist patient at Stirling College and Monash Palliative Care.
Annie has completed Death Doula training with Denise Love and DeathWalker training with Zenith Virago. Christine Longaker, Dr Michael Barbato and more precious teachers. She believes she will never stop learning.
Annie Whitlocke
Annie with her beloved rescue dogs
A younger Annie doing a headstand
Summary
Key Points from This Episode:
- Annie's Early Life: Learn about her challenging early years in foster care and the impact of reuniting with a family she didn’t remember.
- Professional Evolution: From working in various caregiving roles to becoming a respected death doula, Annie discusses how her past experiences with loss and recovery informed her career.
- Philosophy on Death: Annie speaks to how her difficult life experiences opened her heart rather than hardening it, allowing her to provide unique support to those at the end of their life.
- The Role of a Death Doula: Discover what it means to be a death doula, the services they provide, and the emotional and practical support they offer to both dying individuals and their families.
- Buddhist Influence on Embracing Death: Annie explores how Buddhist teachings have shaped her understanding of death as a natural part of life. She discusses the concept of death awareness in Buddhism, which encourages living each moment more fully and with greater presence.
- Advance Care Planning: Annie stresses the importance of advance care directives and how they can ensure a person’s wishes are respected at the end of life.
- Buddhist Practices in Death: Insights into how Annie’s Buddhist beliefs inform her practice as a death doula, particularly around the concept of impermanence.
Transcript
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Catherine Ashton: At what point
did you convert to Buddhism
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and what attracted you to that?
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Annie Whitlocke: Years ago, probably 45
years ago now, when I actually decided
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that this was the pathway that intrigued.
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I read this book, it was
called, it was by Ram Dass, it
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00:00:20,853 ... Read More
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Catherine Ashton: At what point
did you convert to Buddhism
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00:00:04,850 --> 00:00:06,430
and what attracted you to that?
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00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:12,489
Annie Whitlocke: Years ago, probably 45
years ago now, when I actually decided
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that this was the pathway that intrigued.
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I read this book, it was
called, it was by Ram Dass, it
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was called Grist for the Mill.
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And it was in the 70s, and I read it,
and it was like reading, Something
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that I would not have written, but
I understood what they were saying.
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And I could see the logic in it.
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And I could also see the difficulty ahead
of me if I was going to follow this path.
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And I do have a challenge, I will admit.
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And so I, I started
reading about Buddhism.
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Reading and reading and going to
teachings and going to courses.
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One of my biggest teachings was
that I learned that death is one
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of Buddhism's greatest teachers.
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Because death is about impermanence
and it's about accepting that we
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are not creatures that we will die.
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Every sentient being,
every living creature.
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will die.
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And in Buddhism, it goes further.
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So the mountains will wear down, the
rivers will run dry, the sky will change,
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the trees will grow and they will die.
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Everything changes and
nothing is permanent.
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So this was a fascinating concept
to me, and I delved into it.
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As I delved into it, I became more and
more intrigued by the aspect of death, and
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the dying and the death, and in Buddhism,
in particular, the The Vajrayana, they
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have these beautiful death meditations.
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So I started doing that.
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Catherine Ashton: Welcome to
Don't Be Caught Dead, a podcast
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encouraging open conversations about
dying and the death of a loved one.
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I'm your host, Katherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to
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bring your stories of death back to life.
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Because while you may not be ready to die.
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At least you can be prepared.
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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations
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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.
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We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging, and extend
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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First
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Nation peoples around the globe.
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Today's guest is Annie Whitlock.
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In a previous life, Annie was
Managing Director, Owner, Designer
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and Buyer for an import export
business called Angian Australia.
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For 17 years she had that business
until she sold it in 2010 to
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focus on her main interests.
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The most important interest was
as carer to her aging mother.
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Annie was able to be there for her
while her mind, lifestyle, attitude, and
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memories changed through Alzheimer's.
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Annie's mum died in September 2015.
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It was a peaceful and pain free death.
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Annie is a team leader for Social Health
Australia, a spiritual pastoral carer,
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Lay Buddhist chaplain, trainer and
supervisor of Buddhist spiritual carers
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at Monash Medical Center, meditation
instructor at Moorabbin Oncology, death
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cafe facilitator since 2013 and has
spoken on the Buddhist patient at Stirling
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College and Monash Palliative Care.
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And he has completed death doula
training with Denise Love and death
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walker training with Zenith Virago.
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She is also trained with
Christine Longacre and Dr.
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Michael Bardo and more precious teachers.
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She believes she will never stop learning.
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This is a very interesting
conversation that we have today.
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We cover just about everything and
you'll actually hear quite a bit from our
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animals that we're part of the recording.
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You'll hear my cat banded in
the background and her dogs in
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the background of her interview.
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I hope you enjoy getting to know Annie.
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Annie, thank you so much
for joining us today.
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Annie Whitlocke: It's great to be here.
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Thank you for asking me, Catherine.
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Catherine Ashton: Now, Annie,
you're no stranger to death and
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your experience obviously in your
profession has been wide and varied,
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but you have quite the personal
story from what I understand as well.
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Would you feel comfortable sharing
a little bit of that story with us?
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Oh, of course.
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Annie Whitlocke: So when you say personal
story, uh, a bit about my, my background
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and leading up to where I am now.
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Catherine Ashton: Yeah.
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And then we can talk about your
professional roles as well.
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Annie Whitlocke: Sure.
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So as a, as a child, I'll go right back.
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And as a child, I was in a,
uh, a foster home for a couple
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of years as a little baby.
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So, my sister wasn't, due to certain,
uh, circumstances, unfortunately,
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I was the one that had to go.
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So, uh, when I eventually came home,
the first, sorry, I should, the
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first, uh, foster home was not good.
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was not good.
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And even though I was a baby, I
remember certain things was not good.
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Then I was moved to a another place,
which was better, because they
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had toys and I had another child
there so I could play with them.
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Previously, they had none of that.
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And, uh, then I got scarlet fever.
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I had to go to Austin hospital
into the infectious diseases.
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So I was also in isolation
again for a few more weeks.
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I came out of that and
then I got a measles.
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I had to go back into isolation.
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By the time I got home, I was
a very confused little girl.
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And, uh, then I was
introduced to my sister.
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that I didn't even know that I had and
it caused, you know, I had just come from
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a situation where I had not felt love
and I had felt, uh, great insecurity.
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And my, yes, sorry.
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And what age, Annie,
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Catherine Ashton: were you when you
met your sister for the first time?
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Annie Whitlocke: I was
about three and a half.
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Wow.
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And uh so you know they had toys there
and I wanted the toys and I think there
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probably was some feelings of of guilt and
being uncomfortable that my my mother had
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to do this and uh and she had to do this.
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I I understood that.
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She had no choice in those days.
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And uh my sister was always
told give Annie the toys.
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Give Annie the toys.
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And I think that caused a bit of a
rift between my sister and myself.
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So, the, that was some of the background,
then I, I was married at 17, I left
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school at 14, I had 6 miscarriages.
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I was, uh, sterilized when I was 21.
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I had a oophorectomy hysterectomy
when I was 28 and in that time my,
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I had been married a few times and,
uh, one husband died when he was,
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uh, we'd been married for six months.
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He was in a car accident
and he was killed.
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I had to go to the, uh,
morgue to identify him.
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And then a fiancé had, uh, he had
taken his life when I was having
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my hysterectomy, oophorectomy.
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It was, uh, so these,
these experiences have,
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I say that they've broken my heart open.
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And rather than contracting,
I have I have opened more.
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This is how it feels to me.
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So that I was a youth
worker for many years.
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I worked with quadriplegics
for many years.
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I was a practice manager for
15 years in medical centers.
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I've seen And I've experienced
suffering and joy and, and I always
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sort of lean towards the suffering
aspect of it and I wonder if that
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was because of my background.
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Sometimes we can't always explain
why we are, why we are drawn to
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a particular, uh, experience.
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Catherine Ashton: And turn that
experience as well, you know, like
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from, from so much heartache and trauma.
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To, I suppose, use that and, uh,
the way in which you have and it
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seems to have, you know, channeled
it in a, in a more positive manner
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than perhaps some other people have.
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Annie Whitlocke: Yes.
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And I don't know how, why I
was fortunate to be able to do
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that, but I was, and I continue.
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to learn.
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So the people that I'm with at end
of life and their and their people.
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So I don't call them clients
because they're not clients to me.
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They're my teachers.
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Every time I meet another person,
it's an opportunity for me to
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smooth any ragged edges down.
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And I would be kidding myself if
I didn't think that I had them.
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Catherine Ashton: Yeah, yeah.
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Just two seconds.
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I've just, bear with me, Annie.
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I can hear my family
being rowdy, very rowdy.
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Okay, now, Annie, my apologies.
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So where would you like to pick up?
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Oh, um, I suppose that the fact that you
were fortunate that you've, you've turned
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it into something positive for yourself.
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Annie Whitlocke: All right, so probably
four and a half, maybe five years ago now,
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Sarah Kressnerstein, uh, came, uh, to my
place and, uh, we had a, uh, a talk and,
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uh, a wonderful talk, went on for about
like four or five hours and, uh, this was
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an, uh, for an article for The Australian.
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And after, uh, we had spoken, and Uh,
Sarah rang me up a couple of weeks
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later and she said look I'm writing
this book, uh, The Believer and
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previously her first book was The Trauma
Cleaner, which was a, an amazing book.
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Catherine Ashton: Yeah,
it really is, isn't it?
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Annie Whitlocke: You read it?
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Catherine Ashton: I have, I have and,
and she was actually a local Frankston
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woman, so it's, it's very close to here.
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Annie Whitlocke: Yes.
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I mean, I, so when,
and I, and I'd read it.
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So, oh my gosh.
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And we're
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Catherine Ashton: just referring to Sandra
Pankhurst and her life story that, that
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Sarah wrote about in Trauma Cleaner.
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Annie Whitlocke: Yes.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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So, uh, so a couple of weeks
later, she rang me up and she
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said, look, I'm writing this book.
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would you be interested
in being a part of it?
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It's a story about six different
people and it's called The Believer
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because it's about, you know, why
do people believe what they believe?
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And how did they get to that point?
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And what were their challenges?
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And how do they benefit others?
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And I said, Oh, that sounds Wonderful
and I'm really honored and then
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I said, I've just gotta ask uh
someone if it's okay because I
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need to be able to speak my truth.
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So, then I uh contacted my my husband,
my ex husband and we had had a
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very violent marriage and uh there
was definitely domestic violence.
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And I said to him, but he's the father of
of my two boys and everything is fine now.
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We're talking many decades ago now.
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And I said, I've been asked to tell
my story and to be for a book and
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I said, I'm just ringing you up
because I need to understand if it's
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okay with you that I can be honest.
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Bless him.
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He said, it's okay.
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Now, when he said, it's
okay, I'm thinking.
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I'm so grateful.
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And then I thought, Oh, is this because
maybe you've forgotten what you did?
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Catherine Ashton: But either way, yes,
I think it's amazing that you even asked
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Annie Whitlocke: Look, I had to because
you know, I had to be able to Speak
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my truth to Sarah and there was a
lot of very sensitive material And
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I think, you know, some of it's been
censored, some of it hasn't been.
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And, uh, so, so then, it
took a, a couple of years.
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Sarah would come round in between,
she'd keep going back to America,
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interviewing people here, coming to me.
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I was with a woman who was,
uh, facing end of life.
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I was her deathbed.
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And, uh, Sarah had said that if
any of the people that I'm with, if
211
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she would be able to accompany me.
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So, the other people, they all
said, no, I don't feel comfortable.
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No problem.
214
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Totally respect that.
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And then I met this woman
who had breast cancer.
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And, uh, I mentioned to her,
if Sarah could come, and she
217
00:14:18,385 --> 00:14:20,265
said, absolutely, bring her.
218
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She said, and she was a bit like
me, I want it out there, I want
219
00:14:24,305 --> 00:14:25,714
to be able to speak my truth.
220
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And she was spectacular.
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So, Sarah and I would go round to this
lady, and then, with her while she was
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going through the, her, uh, her pathway
of, uh, joy and suffering and her family.
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And, and when she had died, I, I had got
pneumonia, so I couldn't be with her, but
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I had, uh, organized, uh, previously a
funeral director who had a cooling plate,
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Anyway, that's a whole nother story.
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So being able to, it was so
uplifting for me to not have to
227
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worry about, or can I say this?
228
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Is this appropriate?
229
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Whatever Sarah asked me, I
told her the truth, my truth.
230
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Now, we all know the truth can
vary according to the person.
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So what I see is my truth.
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Another person may see it is not.
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Because it doesn't, uh, correspond
with their truth, but anyway, it
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was, uh, I was very honored to have
been, to being part of that and
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also to have been able to open up.
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Sarah was a great listener, and she
didn't just ask me questions, she shared
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a Also a lot about her own life and
about her thoughts and her opinions.
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And I think this is why I
was able to connect with her.
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00:16:00,649 --> 00:16:03,689
So if I was to just have someone
ask me questions and they weren't
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going to get into it with me.
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00:16:05,830 --> 00:16:06,300
Yeah.
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Then I, it's just one sided.
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Catherine Ashton: Yeah, especially about
that very in depth process of of writing
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a book as you said it was over a very
long period of time So it's something
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that you have to share, isn't it?
246
00:16:21,345 --> 00:16:25,134
Annie Whitlocke: Yeah, so
that was that was one great
247
00:16:25,315 --> 00:16:27,935
honor that I've had in my life
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Catherine Ashton: And Annie just
talking about that that process that
249
00:16:32,635 --> 00:16:39,215
you went through, was the seeking of,
of permission from your ex husband, was
250
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that the thing that was the, the pivotal
point where you go, okay, yeah, I'm
251
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going to share all because I, I don't,
were you really seeking permission
252
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from him or were you seeking permission
really for yourself at that stage?
253
00:16:53,835 --> 00:16:54,725
Annie Whitlocke: Really from him.
254
00:16:55,615 --> 00:16:58,805
I, I was okay because I got quite excited.
255
00:16:58,935 --> 00:17:01,325
And I'm thinking, yes, I'm ready for this.
256
00:17:02,395 --> 00:17:08,355
And all my life I've, you know, little
tidbits I've, I've, I've released little
257
00:17:08,574 --> 00:17:15,054
things about me but I've never been able
to be brutally honest and vulnerable.
258
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And so I think it was because he gave me
the permission that I knew that I wasn't
259
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going to, offend anyone by my actions.
260
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That was really important.
261
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:35,330
Catherine Ashton: And has that made
your storytelling and your role, uh,
262
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:40,569
in, in what you do, uh, easier since
you've actually had that opportunity
263
00:17:40,570 --> 00:17:43,180
to tell your story in, in its entirety?
264
00:17:43,459 --> 00:17:45,320
That's a good question, Catherine.
265
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:45,960
I
266
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Annie Whitlocke: never
even thought of that.
267
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But.
268
00:17:50,310 --> 00:17:52,600
Yes, I think it did.
269
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I think it broke the dam.
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Yeah, yeah.
271
00:17:59,330 --> 00:18:03,890
Catherine Ashton: And at what stage were
you, uh, when you were approached by
272
00:18:03,910 --> 00:18:09,630
Sarah in relation to your, for want of a
better word, journey into, to Buddhism?
273
00:18:09,659 --> 00:18:14,520
I know that you've always had meditation
as part of a focus for yourself,
274
00:18:14,820 --> 00:18:18,520
but at what point did you, did you,
did you, convert to Buddhism and,
275
00:18:18,870 --> 00:18:21,480
and, and what attracted you to that
276
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:21,936
Annie Whitlocke: faith?
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00:18:21,936 --> 00:18:29,600
It was over 40 years ago, probably
45 years ago now, when I, uh, uh,
278
00:18:30,140 --> 00:18:36,659
when I converted, when I actually
decided that this was the the
279
00:18:36,669 --> 00:18:40,080
pathway that, uh, intrigued me.
280
00:18:40,649 --> 00:18:45,210
I read this book, it was called, it
was by Ram Dass, it was called Grist
281
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:54,770
for the Mill, and it was in the 70s,
and I read it, and it was like reading
282
00:18:55,950 --> 00:19:02,490
Something that I would not have written,
but I understood what they were saying,
283
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:11,960
and I could see the logic in it, and I
could also see the difficulty ahead of
284
00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:15,109
me if I was going to follow this path.
285
00:19:16,429 --> 00:19:19,460
And I do like a challenge, I will admit.
286
00:19:20,270 --> 00:19:23,390
And so I, I started
reading about Buddhism.
287
00:19:23,985 --> 00:19:29,045
Reading and reading and reading and
going to teachings and going to courses
288
00:19:30,015 --> 00:19:35,515
and one of the things that I loved
about Buddhism, I say that it takes no
289
00:19:35,535 --> 00:19:42,455
prisoners, I, my study, I lean towards
Tibetan Buddhism, the Vajrayana.
290
00:19:43,344 --> 00:19:47,065
So in Buddhism, there's the
Theravadan, there's the Mahayana.
291
00:19:47,345 --> 00:19:48,775
And then there's the Vajrayana.
292
00:19:49,575 --> 00:19:54,585
And, uh, I mean, it's all interconnected
anyway, there's the same teachings,
293
00:19:54,585 --> 00:19:59,775
but because due to cultural
differences, uh, they, uh, practice
294
00:19:59,775 --> 00:20:01,794
a bit differently to other countries.
295
00:20:02,645 --> 00:20:05,104
And I,
296
00:20:07,264 --> 00:20:14,764
one of my, my biggest teachings was
that I learned that death is one of, uh,
297
00:20:14,774 --> 00:20:18,024
Buddhists, Buddhism's greatest teachers.
298
00:20:18,994 --> 00:20:25,575
Because death is about impermanence
and it's about accepting that we
299
00:20:25,644 --> 00:20:31,205
are not creatures that we will die.
300
00:20:31,345 --> 00:20:38,874
Every sentient being, every
living creature will die and
301
00:20:39,195 --> 00:20:41,764
in Buddhism it goes further.
302
00:20:42,054 --> 00:20:47,334
So the mountains will wear down,
the rivers will run dry, the,
303
00:20:47,485 --> 00:20:51,614
the sky will change, the trees
will grow and they will die.
304
00:20:52,244 --> 00:20:55,944
Everything changes and
nothing is permanent.
305
00:20:56,424 --> 00:21:00,844
So this was a fascinating concept
to me and I delved into it.
306
00:21:00,844 --> 00:21:02,774
As I delved into it.
307
00:21:03,945 --> 00:21:11,185
I became more and more intrigued by the
aspect of death and the dying and the
308
00:21:11,185 --> 00:21:17,675
death and in Buddhism, in particular,
the, uh, the, the Vajrayana, they have
309
00:21:17,685 --> 00:21:19,825
these beautiful death meditations.
310
00:21:20,825 --> 00:21:23,445
So I started doing that.
311
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And.
312
00:21:25,335 --> 00:21:31,965
Realizing that how it was
benefiting my day to day life.
313
00:21:32,435 --> 00:21:36,254
It helped me to look at
life in a different way.
314
00:21:36,745 --> 00:21:44,544
So regarding, uh, mindfulness practice,
that's it's, it's an opportunity for me.
315
00:21:44,544 --> 00:21:49,600
I learned that I could
actually See my confusion.
316
00:21:50,270 --> 00:21:53,230
Recognize that this was inappropriate.
317
00:21:53,850 --> 00:21:57,970
I may not be able to do anything
about it, but I can see you.
318
00:21:58,460 --> 00:22:02,769
And, okay, I'll park you for a little
bit, but you haven't gone anywhere
319
00:22:02,770 --> 00:22:04,179
and I'm going to address you.
320
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:07,109
So I'll give you an example.
321
00:22:07,139 --> 00:22:15,289
Perhaps if I had a, a feeling of animosity
towards a, a person or anything, a
322
00:22:15,449 --> 00:22:20,290
political party or a American president.
323
00:22:20,710 --> 00:22:21,550
Just for example.
324
00:22:21,820 --> 00:22:22,570
Just for example.
325
00:22:23,030 --> 00:22:28,920
And how do I deal with that?
326
00:22:29,010 --> 00:22:33,929
Because if I hate, that serves no purpose.
327
00:22:33,929 --> 00:22:37,620
In fact, all that does
is it hinders my growth.
328
00:22:38,609 --> 00:22:46,190
So I had to start to learn
to Create a space between my,
329
00:22:46,270 --> 00:22:51,730
my judgment, my preconceived
biases and the actual reality.
330
00:22:51,730 --> 00:22:53,050
What is reality?
331
00:22:53,430 --> 00:22:57,159
So a lot of the things I was looking
at things and I was coloring it with my
332
00:22:57,189 --> 00:23:00,279
own reality, just as everyone else is.
333
00:23:00,865 --> 00:23:02,945
Well, that's not reality, is it?
334
00:23:04,335 --> 00:23:10,315
But in Buddhism, I mean, and probably many
other traditions also, took me to that
335
00:23:10,345 --> 00:23:13,135
reality which made a lot of sense to me.
336
00:23:15,285 --> 00:23:17,245
Catherine Ashton: Oh, that's, thank
you for explaining that, Annie.
337
00:23:17,635 --> 00:23:18,955
I really appreciate that.
338
00:23:19,325 --> 00:23:25,035
And how do you think that the role
that The Buddhism, your Buddhism
339
00:23:25,035 --> 00:23:29,605
has played in your role as a, as a
death doula, sort of, how did the,
340
00:23:29,635 --> 00:23:31,435
the role as a death doula come along?
341
00:23:31,445 --> 00:23:35,175
You mentioned, what, 45 years ago
you, you, you were attracted and
342
00:23:35,175 --> 00:23:37,355
started your journey with Buddhism.
343
00:23:37,685 --> 00:23:41,014
When did, when did being a
death doula come into play?
344
00:23:41,335 --> 00:23:45,215
I, I, I understand that you ran your
own business for a period of time.
345
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:46,230
Yes,
346
00:23:46,230 --> 00:23:50,129
Annie Whitlocke: yes, I, uh, I run
a business that's called Anjian
347
00:23:50,129 --> 00:23:52,470
Australia, and I was a designer.
348
00:23:52,860 --> 00:23:57,240
We, uh, we were importers, exporters,
wholesalers, and we sold around the world.
349
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,050
And I designed products that represented
positive symbolism from all, uh,
350
00:24:02,050 --> 00:24:04,270
world cultures and faith traditions.
351
00:24:04,340 --> 00:24:09,350
And, obviously, uh, death was one
of those things that I focused on.
352
00:24:09,750 --> 00:24:15,985
So I had a, uh, Magnificent creative
platform that I could actually design
353
00:24:15,985 --> 00:24:22,425
these products and write what I thought
was meaningful, uh, text and attach it
354
00:24:22,435 --> 00:24:26,414
to every product so that people would
also understand a bit more about it.
355
00:24:27,065 --> 00:24:31,205
Hopefully, maybe learn
a little thing as well.
356
00:24:32,975 --> 00:24:33,375
Yeah.
357
00:24:33,375 --> 00:24:36,185
And from there?
358
00:24:37,695 --> 00:24:38,485
So, uh.
359
00:24:39,045 --> 00:24:45,875
When I sold the business was on the,
uh, the 10th of the 10th, 2010 at 10 a.
360
00:24:45,925 --> 00:24:46,205
m.
361
00:24:47,285 --> 00:24:48,015
Oh, really?
362
00:24:48,225 --> 00:24:49,085
My goodness.
363
00:24:49,334 --> 00:24:51,715
The man who bought it,
that's what he wanted.
364
00:24:52,445 --> 00:24:53,145
Really?
365
00:24:53,325 --> 00:24:53,575
Yeah.
366
00:24:54,015 --> 00:24:59,115
So, so I've, then I decided, so just
before I sold, I had decided, you
367
00:24:59,115 --> 00:25:04,075
know, I was I had it up for sale
and I knew that I had to change.
368
00:25:04,365 --> 00:25:07,605
I had to change my life because
my business, gosh, I mean, anyone
369
00:25:07,605 --> 00:25:10,984
who runs their own business
knows that that's 24 seven.
370
00:25:11,795 --> 00:25:16,865
And so what am I going to get into that?
371
00:25:16,875 --> 00:25:21,915
I can bring my passion and I thought
I'm going to become a funeral celebrant.
372
00:25:22,535 --> 00:25:23,095
So.
373
00:25:23,530 --> 00:25:27,699
Then I, I went and I got my
qualifications to be a funeral celebrant.
374
00:25:27,709 --> 00:25:29,120
I didn't worry about the marriage.
375
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:33,099
That didn't do anything for me probably
because of my, my failed marriages.
376
00:25:33,100 --> 00:25:35,279
I just didn't have it anyway.
377
00:25:35,949 --> 00:25:37,229
Anyway, I
378
00:25:39,620 --> 00:25:42,549
decided to become a funeral celebrant.
379
00:25:42,999 --> 00:25:47,189
Started doing funerals and
you know, I was very honored.
380
00:25:47,399 --> 00:25:50,350
It was beautiful and I, I
loved doing the funerals.
381
00:25:51,014 --> 00:25:56,335
But I wanted to get closer
to people at end of life.
382
00:25:57,165 --> 00:26:02,615
Now, at this stage, I had been with
my grandfather, who had died at home.
383
00:26:03,025 --> 00:26:08,235
I was in bed with him, my mother was on
his left side, I was on his right side.
384
00:26:08,584 --> 00:26:14,765
My eight year old son was sitting in a
chair by his bed, and grandpa was dying.
385
00:26:15,135 --> 00:26:18,355
He had chosen to fast, to death.
386
00:26:18,695 --> 00:26:19,935
He had renal failure.
387
00:26:19,935 --> 00:26:21,524
He did not want to go to hospital.
388
00:26:21,534 --> 00:26:23,395
He, he was a medic in the army.
389
00:26:23,504 --> 00:26:25,784
He knew what he would be up for.
390
00:26:26,495 --> 00:26:28,635
And, uh, so he died.
391
00:26:29,004 --> 00:26:33,075
And it was beautiful that my son,
he actually wanted to be there.
392
00:26:33,399 --> 00:26:35,020
So and I let him stay there.
393
00:26:36,029 --> 00:26:43,580
And then also my many other
people had died because of the
394
00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:48,369
miscarriages and people wouldn't
talk about the miscarriage.
395
00:26:48,369 --> 00:26:54,479
You know, I lost my babies between 10
and 12 weeks and it was never discussed.
396
00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:00,999
So I just had to carry that as though
it was, it was almost felt like a shame
397
00:27:01,630 --> 00:27:08,304
that like, I couldn't keep a baby in
my womb, you know, I kept losing them.
398
00:27:09,225 --> 00:27:13,015
But I also know that that was
due to the domestic violence.
399
00:27:13,695 --> 00:27:13,825
Hmm.
400
00:27:15,215 --> 00:27:16,694
And so where were we up to?
401
00:27:18,324 --> 00:27:22,225
Catherine Ashton: When, when you
moved from being a funeral celebrant
402
00:27:22,574 --> 00:27:24,435
into becoming a death dweller.
403
00:27:24,575 --> 00:27:26,105
Annie Whitlocke: So, yes, thank you.
404
00:27:27,315 --> 00:27:28,105
That's okay.
405
00:27:29,365 --> 00:27:31,074
I, then I had to study.
406
00:27:32,145 --> 00:27:34,504
And I studied with the.
407
00:27:35,270 --> 00:27:37,320
Denise Love, Life Options.
408
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:44,500
I did all of her courses and the death
of a baby and, uh, all the other ones.
409
00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:45,950
And then, uh, Michael, Dr.
410
00:27:45,950 --> 00:27:49,850
Michael Barbato, a palliative care
physician in the Blue Mountains.
411
00:27:49,850 --> 00:27:50,900
I studied with him.
412
00:27:51,330 --> 00:27:54,579
I studied with Christine
Longacre from America.
413
00:27:54,610 --> 00:27:57,030
She came down and did a, an intensive.
414
00:27:57,030 --> 00:27:58,020
I did that with her.
415
00:27:58,700 --> 00:28:02,340
Uh, Rick Hansen, I did
a, uh, an intensive.
416
00:28:02,425 --> 00:28:05,025
the course with him, not on
death, but on neurobiology.
417
00:28:06,715 --> 00:28:12,615
And, uh, I also studied with
Zenith Varago, all of hers.
418
00:28:13,555 --> 00:28:22,095
And then I thought, okay, you know, I'm
feeling a bit confident and I, I started,
419
00:28:22,164 --> 00:28:27,645
uh, going out and seeing people, but
I was always talking about it anyway.
420
00:28:28,465 --> 00:28:29,215
And.
421
00:28:30,620 --> 00:28:34,230
That's when I started to become a
Death Dueler, so I've been doing that
422
00:28:34,230 --> 00:28:41,020
for about 14 years now, and through
Denise Love, so, uh, Life Options,
423
00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:47,320
she asked me to be a facilitator for
her courses online as a Death Dueler.
424
00:28:47,780 --> 00:28:52,899
So I've done that for a couple of
years then as a Pet Death Dueler, and
425
00:28:52,909 --> 00:28:55,030
I've done that for a couple of years.
426
00:28:55,469 --> 00:28:57,800
So it's very honored that she trusted me.
427
00:28:57,960 --> 00:28:59,450
to be able to do that.
428
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:02,470
And I And tell
429
00:29:02,470 --> 00:29:04,770
Catherine Ashton: me about
that, a pet death door lock.
430
00:29:05,870 --> 00:29:08,229
Annie Whitlocke: Well, I think
people with pets, and I can see
431
00:29:08,230 --> 00:29:11,040
a little pussycat behind you,
lovely little black and white one.
432
00:29:11,470 --> 00:29:12,180
Yes, yes.
433
00:29:12,180 --> 00:29:12,770
Boy or girl?
434
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:14,240
Catherine Ashton: Boy.
435
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:14,780
What's his name?
436
00:29:14,810 --> 00:29:16,239
Yes, a bandit.
437
00:29:16,239 --> 00:29:16,969
Very spoilt.
438
00:29:18,719 --> 00:29:19,119
Annie Whitlocke: Bandit.
439
00:29:20,420 --> 00:29:22,900
Well, I've had many animals.
440
00:29:23,550 --> 00:29:24,990
I was a vet nurse.
441
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,780
I have
442
00:29:30,780 --> 00:29:37,180
Several years ago, my greyhound
was run over in front of me at
443
00:29:37,180 --> 00:29:41,580
the front of my house and that
just knocked me for a sixer.
444
00:29:41,590 --> 00:29:46,440
I mean she, she had, she was so excited
she was going to go with the walk next
445
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,609
door with our neighbor who every night
would take her and her two dogs for
446
00:29:49,609 --> 00:29:53,829
a walk and for some reason Karma did
something that she doesn't normally do.
447
00:29:53,859 --> 00:29:57,794
Just before I had the lead on her, she
ran down the front and that abused her.
448
00:29:57,795 --> 00:30:00,925
Big SUV was charging down the street.
449
00:30:01,195 --> 00:30:02,625
Anyway, connected.
450
00:30:02,725 --> 00:30:04,285
She was killed instantly.
451
00:30:05,855 --> 00:30:11,724
So there was obviously, there was a
regret and I'm saying guilt, but I knew
452
00:30:11,725 --> 00:30:13,694
that I had done everything possible.
453
00:30:13,695 --> 00:30:16,014
It was a fluke that this happened.
454
00:30:16,605 --> 00:30:23,915
Then I started fostering and adopting,
uh, seriously disabled animals.
455
00:30:24,885 --> 00:30:28,365
And, and, and that's what
I, what I have right now.
456
00:30:28,375 --> 00:30:31,945
So I've had up to six at, at a time.
457
00:30:32,465 --> 00:30:37,174
And, uh, the little girl that, or
I was going to talk about what I've
458
00:30:37,174 --> 00:30:44,000
got now, but, so that led me to,
uh, Because it's sentient beings.
459
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:53,119
So in Buddhism, an ant, a slug, a little
microbe, to the great big elephant,
460
00:30:53,200 --> 00:31:00,610
are all worthy of my compassion and
my attention so that they can live
461
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,494
a good life as much as possible.
462
00:31:05,465 --> 00:31:10,545
And also we're not good with
when someone's pet when their
463
00:31:10,745 --> 00:31:12,805
companion animal has died.
464
00:31:13,354 --> 00:31:16,354
Some are great, but usually not so good.
465
00:31:16,354 --> 00:31:21,354
And people don't feel comfortable
explaining that my cat or my dog or my
466
00:31:21,355 --> 00:31:28,115
fish or my bird has died because they're
not confident that they will be given
467
00:31:28,115 --> 00:31:30,335
the compassion that they so deserve.
468
00:31:32,235 --> 00:31:34,925
And that's usually kept Very quiet.
469
00:31:34,935 --> 00:31:41,985
So as a pet death doer, encouraging people
to speak openly about it, bring it out
470
00:31:42,015 --> 00:31:47,195
into the open, death literacy for animals
as well, for humans and for animals.
471
00:31:49,415 --> 00:31:51,434
Catherine Ashton: Because I think
that that's something that a lot
472
00:31:51,435 --> 00:31:56,835
of people do hold within them
is, is that grief associated
473
00:31:56,855 --> 00:31:59,715
when a companion animal does die.
474
00:32:00,340 --> 00:32:05,890
Uh, I know a, a nearby neighbor that
has had, uh, terrible experience with,
475
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:12,029
you know, people just not understanding
how much she is grieving and, and, and
476
00:32:12,029 --> 00:32:17,200
really understanding that it was as
significant to her as a family member,
477
00:32:17,569 --> 00:32:20,520
anyone, human or, or non human, so.
478
00:32:21,050 --> 00:32:24,800
Annie Whitlocke: Well, on Compass,
on this Sunday, the 7th of March,
479
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,600
they're doing a special, uh, edition
about the death of an animal.
480
00:32:30,810 --> 00:32:31,680
Catherine Ashton: Oh, fantastic.
481
00:32:31,710 --> 00:32:34,480
What we'll do is we'll put a
link in the, in the show notes
482
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:35,790
so people can look at it.
483
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:36,600
Annie Whitlocke: Good.
484
00:32:36,660 --> 00:32:37,410
I understand that.
485
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,540
I always read my age really late
because I've got so many things to read.
486
00:32:41,580 --> 00:32:43,170
But then I found that this morning.
487
00:32:43,899 --> 00:32:45,430
Catherine Ashton: Oh,
that's, that's great to know.
488
00:32:45,550 --> 00:32:46,960
Thanks for letting me know, Annie.
489
00:32:47,785 --> 00:32:51,055
So tell me a little bit about
Social Health Australia and how
490
00:32:51,055 --> 00:32:52,805
you started working with them.
491
00:32:53,215 --> 00:32:57,405
Originally, I believe you were an
associate director and then you decided
492
00:32:57,405 --> 00:32:59,945
to move to a team leader's role.
493
00:33:00,345 --> 00:33:02,594
Tell me about that aspect.
494
00:33:02,764 --> 00:33:03,084
Sure.
495
00:33:03,455 --> 00:33:05,285
Annie Whitlocke: Well, first of
all, I'm not a committee girl.
496
00:33:05,595 --> 00:33:08,385
And when I was asked to be on the
committee, I was very honoured.
497
00:33:08,385 --> 00:33:09,495
I thought this is great.
498
00:33:09,915 --> 00:33:12,845
And I've always said before that I would
never do another committee, but I did it.
499
00:33:13,210 --> 00:33:17,700
But, okay, then I had to back off because
I'm just not that kind of a person.
500
00:33:17,970 --> 00:33:20,570
I needed to have, I need
to be in the front line.
501
00:33:22,340 --> 00:33:23,690
Catherine Ashton: Well, you
know what your skills are.
502
00:33:23,830 --> 00:33:24,350
Yes.
503
00:33:24,710 --> 00:33:25,290
Annie Whitlocke: That's right.
504
00:33:25,500 --> 00:33:28,709
And I know what I'm comfortable doing.
505
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:29,590
Yeah.
506
00:33:29,699 --> 00:33:31,560
And I know what I'm uncomfortable doing.
507
00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:33,359
Catherine Ashton: Yeah, totally.
508
00:33:34,249 --> 00:33:36,330
Annie Whitlocke: Um, okay.
509
00:33:36,530 --> 00:33:37,220
I.
510
00:33:38,530 --> 00:33:41,550
It was about four and a half
years ago, Social Health Australia
511
00:33:41,550 --> 00:33:43,050
was under another name then.
512
00:33:43,570 --> 00:33:48,670
We started getting some funding and
we were training volunteers to be
513
00:33:48,670 --> 00:33:54,270
with people in the community at risk
of existential and social isolation.
514
00:33:55,189 --> 00:34:01,740
And then, uh, Last year and this year,
we were focusing more on, uh, loneliness
515
00:34:01,740 --> 00:34:07,760
in the community, uh, existential
and, uh, and social isolation.
516
00:34:08,210 --> 00:34:11,060
And then we moved to
voluntary assisted dying.
517
00:34:11,420 --> 00:34:14,839
Then we incorporated bereavement support.
518
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:21,600
And so we were, myself and Joe and
other people were training our valuable,
519
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:27,385
precious volunteers about, uh, One
of the main things, and I call it
520
00:34:27,385 --> 00:34:32,105
shut up edness, to practice shut up
edness, shut up and listen, we're
521
00:34:32,105 --> 00:34:36,404
not going to go into anyone's place
and tell them, you should do this,
522
00:34:36,464 --> 00:34:38,835
or I know what would be good here.
523
00:34:39,575 --> 00:34:40,055
No.
524
00:34:40,295 --> 00:34:44,355
We are with that person in
whatever state they're in.
525
00:34:44,565 --> 00:34:49,425
If they want to cry, if they want
to be angry, if they want to be,
526
00:34:49,685 --> 00:34:52,325
you know, sad, we will be with them.
527
00:34:53,305 --> 00:34:57,675
Because I think that we come
from a Perhaps a world, perhaps a
528
00:34:57,675 --> 00:35:01,035
society where we, we are not heard.
529
00:35:02,885 --> 00:35:07,645
And I must admit that was one
thing that was a big thing that
530
00:35:07,645 --> 00:35:09,694
I also learned from my family.
531
00:35:10,365 --> 00:35:11,145
Bless them.
532
00:35:11,725 --> 00:35:20,185
They were not good listeners and They
were not good listeners, so if I wanted
533
00:35:20,190 --> 00:35:27,425
to say something, I really, I either
had to shout above everyone else or
534
00:35:28,685 --> 00:35:34,295
keep quiet, and a lot of the time I just
kept quiet and then that keeping quiet
535
00:35:35,885 --> 00:35:39,445
became part of me because so many people.
536
00:35:40,005 --> 00:35:40,855
Interrupted.
537
00:35:41,755 --> 00:35:48,065
So many people would tell you without
being asked what you should do.
538
00:35:48,815 --> 00:35:52,695
And when I was younger, I didn't
have the skill set or the confidence
539
00:35:52,745 --> 00:35:54,225
to tell them to bugger off.
540
00:35:54,575 --> 00:35:55,635
But now I do.
541
00:35:56,505 --> 00:36:02,435
But a lot of people, they're very, they're
very polite and and because it's so
542
00:36:02,675 --> 00:36:07,485
normal, it's That they just go along with
it and then I hear about it afterward.
543
00:36:07,615 --> 00:36:10,905
Oh, this person said, you know,
do this and you should do that.
544
00:36:11,385 --> 00:36:16,425
Especially when someone has been
diagnosed with a terminal illness.
545
00:36:18,075 --> 00:36:20,655
All the, not all, but many.
546
00:36:21,135 --> 00:36:26,585
of the people who seem to know what's
right for them come around and they
547
00:36:26,585 --> 00:36:34,274
tell them all the things that they
should do ad nauseum and then the person
548
00:36:34,464 --> 00:36:41,644
will confide in me that this is really
hard you know people are telling me
549
00:36:41,645 --> 00:36:47,625
to do this and do that and i've seen
a lot of ways that it can go pear and
550
00:36:50,095 --> 00:36:55,585
so then i would bring up
the difficult conversations
551
00:36:57,635 --> 00:37:00,465
And sometimes it can be a bit confronting.
552
00:37:00,765 --> 00:37:03,295
So it's really important the way.
553
00:37:03,735 --> 00:37:05,975
So now we were talking about team leader.
554
00:37:05,975 --> 00:37:07,775
Now I'm talking as a death door.
555
00:37:07,775 --> 00:37:11,975
So I'm sort of, I'm deliberately trying
to confuse you and your listeners.
556
00:37:12,945 --> 00:37:16,755
Catherine Ashton: No, no, your
approach is, is perfectly fine.
557
00:37:17,145 --> 00:37:21,515
I think it's an indication of
how your manner is, regardless of
558
00:37:21,515 --> 00:37:23,005
what hat you're wearing, Annie.
559
00:37:23,475 --> 00:37:29,895
And I find that interesting when you're
talking about poor who, uh, when they're
560
00:37:29,895 --> 00:37:34,045
diagnosed with a terminal illness,
other people feel the need to fill
561
00:37:34,045 --> 00:37:39,765
that quiet space, uh, perhaps with, Do
you find that that's because they may
562
00:37:39,765 --> 00:37:42,695
be anxious and not sure what to say?
563
00:37:43,195 --> 00:37:46,985
Annie Whitlocke: Yes, yes, absolutely,
they don't know what to say, or perhaps
564
00:37:46,985 --> 00:37:48,665
they think they do know what to say.
565
00:37:49,315 --> 00:37:51,685
And because they've heard
other people say it.
566
00:37:52,694 --> 00:37:55,434
And, oh, this is what you
say in this situation.
567
00:37:55,775 --> 00:37:58,744
And so they will just mirror.
568
00:37:58,985 --> 00:37:59,355
Catherine Ashton: That.
569
00:38:00,025 --> 00:38:00,545
Mm.
570
00:38:01,485 --> 00:38:05,865
But if you've heard something that's not
helpful, that's not very good, is it?
571
00:38:06,395 --> 00:38:06,545
Annie Whitlocke: Yeah.
572
00:38:06,545 --> 00:38:09,574
How many times do we tell someone
when they say something like that,
573
00:38:09,595 --> 00:38:13,725
you know, like, well not, maybe
not to bugger off, but to just say,
574
00:38:14,035 --> 00:38:15,495
thank you, but I'm not interested?
575
00:38:17,065 --> 00:38:18,044
We don't.
576
00:38:18,755 --> 00:38:19,185
Yeah.
577
00:38:19,234 --> 00:38:19,704
Rarely.
578
00:38:19,724 --> 00:38:19,944
Yeah.
579
00:38:21,435 --> 00:38:24,155
And unless, unless we have the words.
580
00:38:24,965 --> 00:38:27,115
So words are so important.
581
00:38:27,445 --> 00:38:29,395
Body language is so important.
582
00:38:29,435 --> 00:38:33,015
Probably body language is more
important than the words that we use.
583
00:38:33,835 --> 00:38:36,495
And so this is one of the things
that we train our volunteers
584
00:38:36,495 --> 00:38:38,975
with in Social Health Australia.
585
00:38:40,245 --> 00:38:45,004
Catherine Ashton: And you've talked
about the essential role and learning the
586
00:38:45,005 --> 00:38:47,624
skill of shut up ness, which I do love.
587
00:38:47,675 --> 00:38:53,295
What, if someone is going to ask or see
someone who's being diagnosed with a
588
00:38:53,295 --> 00:38:58,415
terminal illness or who is dying, what
would you recommend that visitor do?
589
00:38:58,965 --> 00:39:05,945
does or says perhaps things to avoid
just based on your personal experience.
590
00:39:06,155 --> 00:39:07,465
Obviously it's anecdotal but
591
00:39:08,155 --> 00:39:08,595
Annie Whitlocke: okay.
592
00:39:10,645 --> 00:39:15,125
So I'm just thinking of all the
situations I can use as an example.
593
00:39:15,505 --> 00:39:18,364
I know quite the question
I've asked for my brain.
594
00:39:18,515 --> 00:39:19,125
That's okay.
595
00:39:19,585 --> 00:39:21,075
I'm thinking of this man.
596
00:39:21,455 --> 00:39:27,415
He was nearing end of life and he's
597
00:39:29,485 --> 00:39:35,144
he had this friend who would come in
and sit there and rather than just
598
00:39:35,635 --> 00:39:41,394
companioning being by their side they
felt they had to fill up the space with
599
00:39:41,394 --> 00:39:46,945
words and the words that they thought
they were would be helpful was telling
600
00:39:46,945 --> 00:39:49,185
this man, Oh, you should do this.
601
00:39:49,185 --> 00:39:52,525
And, you know, and I read about this
and, you know, have you done this?
602
00:39:52,815 --> 00:39:55,305
And it became really exhausting.
603
00:39:55,715 --> 00:40:00,525
So then I asked permission of the man,
if I could speak to his friend to let
604
00:40:00,525 --> 00:40:07,480
him know What his words, how his words
were reacting with his friend because
605
00:40:07,530 --> 00:40:13,640
he, this was an old friend and he, he
adored him and I was given permission
606
00:40:13,730 --> 00:40:15,860
because permission is a very big thing.
607
00:40:15,930 --> 00:40:17,540
Always have to ask permission.
608
00:40:17,569 --> 00:40:18,460
Can I do this?
609
00:40:18,469 --> 00:40:19,239
Can I say that?
610
00:40:20,610 --> 00:40:23,710
And then I spoke to his friend
and I was a little bit nervous.
611
00:40:23,730 --> 00:40:24,600
I didn't know.
612
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:29,420
I mean, I'm a stranger to this
person and here I am telling him
613
00:40:29,420 --> 00:40:33,710
what he could do and, and he got it.
614
00:40:33,939 --> 00:40:36,120
And he said, I, I just
didn't mean it like that.
615
00:40:36,829 --> 00:40:39,960
Cause then the good thing, I always
say, have you ever had anyone
616
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,390
said to you what you should do?
617
00:40:42,465 --> 00:40:46,845
And I didn't have to say anything else,
because I could tell by the look on
618
00:40:46,845 --> 00:40:49,625
their face, yeah, they got the point.
619
00:40:51,475 --> 00:40:51,695
Yeah.
620
00:40:53,155 --> 00:40:56,714
And how many of us have
been through that ourselves?
621
00:40:56,955 --> 00:41:02,785
Yet somehow, some of us just slip into
it, because we don't know the alternative.
622
00:41:04,274 --> 00:41:07,585
Which is why, you know, we
talk about death literacy.
623
00:41:08,195 --> 00:41:15,950
So, It's how to talk about it leading
up to someone's end of life after,
624
00:41:16,130 --> 00:41:20,990
you know, when we're with their people
and there are certain things that
625
00:41:21,020 --> 00:41:27,920
some people say, you know, so many,
I'm sure, and now your listeners.
626
00:41:29,675 --> 00:41:31,325
Oh, now they're with God.
627
00:41:31,815 --> 00:41:35,665
And okay, now if that person
was not religious, they
628
00:41:35,665 --> 00:41:36,915
would get annoyed with that.
629
00:41:36,915 --> 00:41:38,695
Or now they're in a better place.
630
00:41:39,674 --> 00:41:46,974
Uh, now they are in I can't think
of all of the things right now that
631
00:41:46,974 --> 00:41:50,025
people say that really inappropriate.
632
00:41:51,375 --> 00:41:53,325
Catherine Ashton: Oh, at
least they had a good life.
633
00:41:53,645 --> 00:41:54,665
Yes, that's right.
634
00:41:55,085 --> 00:41:56,765
They lived a long time.
635
00:41:57,275 --> 00:41:58,984
Oh, at least you've got another child.
636
00:41:58,984 --> 00:41:59,944
Annie Whitlocke: Oh my gosh.
637
00:41:59,944 --> 00:42:01,035
Yes, that's right.
638
00:42:01,415 --> 00:42:02,325
That was one of the things.
639
00:42:02,325 --> 00:42:06,715
So I was training, uh, these
Vietnamese women to become,
640
00:42:06,745 --> 00:42:08,255
uh, to be pastoral carers.
641
00:42:09,415 --> 00:42:13,145
And, and so one of the conversations,
and thank you for raising that because
642
00:42:13,175 --> 00:42:16,404
I know that, uh, that was something
that I wanted to talk about too.
643
00:42:17,084 --> 00:42:19,125
And so.
644
00:42:19,385 --> 00:42:24,305
I would say, in a situation, the
mother and the father, their baby
645
00:42:24,305 --> 00:42:26,315
has died, what would you say?
646
00:42:26,495 --> 00:42:29,575
And straight away, they
both said what you said.
647
00:42:30,125 --> 00:42:33,895
Well, you have another child,
or you're young, and you'll have
648
00:42:33,944 --> 00:42:35,415
another, you'll have another one.
649
00:42:36,435 --> 00:42:43,515
And then, so then all I did, I didn't say,
no, wrong, I just said, okay, imagine,
650
00:42:44,085 --> 00:42:52,125
That your baby has died, you're in the
room with your, with your husband and
651
00:42:52,125 --> 00:42:57,685
you're holding your dead baby in your
arms and then someone says to you, well
652
00:42:57,685 --> 00:43:04,105
at least you have another child or you're
young enough, you can have another child.
653
00:43:04,765 --> 00:43:05,865
How would you feel?
654
00:43:07,355 --> 00:43:08,715
That's all I had to say.
655
00:43:08,945 --> 00:43:09,635
They got it.
656
00:43:11,445 --> 00:43:14,885
So then we started talking
about what else can you say?
657
00:43:17,175 --> 00:43:21,595
And so they were coming from
their cultural background.
658
00:43:21,605 --> 00:43:23,035
This is what you would say.
659
00:43:23,965 --> 00:43:25,845
And so I just had to question that.
660
00:43:26,384 --> 00:43:30,554
And to just put it to them,
Well, how do you feel about that?
661
00:43:30,604 --> 00:43:32,604
Now you're in their shoes.
662
00:43:34,115 --> 00:43:36,175
Catherine Ashton: And is
that advice that perhaps
663
00:43:38,495 --> 00:43:43,415
other people should take on board, well,
all of us really, is maybe, just as I
664
00:43:43,415 --> 00:43:46,974
move the cat, sorry, bear with me, is
that advice that other people should
665
00:43:46,985 --> 00:43:52,285
take on board is perhaps, you know,
maybe just for a moment before speaking.
666
00:43:52,870 --> 00:43:56,840
Perhaps just put yourself in another
person's shoes, another person's
667
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:01,349
situation and, and think whether they
would like to actually hear the same
668
00:44:01,349 --> 00:44:02,910
advice that you're about to give.
669
00:44:03,429 --> 00:44:05,270
Is that perhaps a good
670
00:44:06,460 --> 00:44:07,010
Annie Whitlocke: filter?
671
00:44:07,229 --> 00:44:08,369
Yes, I think that's great.
672
00:44:08,590 --> 00:44:11,709
But I wouldn't use the word
should, I would say can.
673
00:44:14,875 --> 00:44:15,595
Yeah.
674
00:44:15,685 --> 00:44:19,155
I'm, I sort of, I go, I go
when I hear the word should.
675
00:44:20,125 --> 00:44:23,665
Catherine Ashton: No, that, that's, that's
really good because again it brings us
676
00:44:23,665 --> 00:44:29,604
back to things that we need to be aware
of that just we fall back into old habits
677
00:44:29,604 --> 00:44:30,954
when we're having these discussions.
678
00:44:31,164 --> 00:44:32,645
Annie Whitlocke: Yes, yes.
679
00:44:33,825 --> 00:44:35,055
I think that
680
00:44:37,145 --> 00:44:40,625
put yourself in that position,
how does it feel for you?
681
00:44:42,685 --> 00:44:48,195
Because then I will understand
how far they can go.
682
00:44:50,530 --> 00:44:53,980
This person does not have
the ability to have insight.
683
00:44:54,360 --> 00:45:02,550
That means I will need to use
another trick to get them to see,
684
00:45:02,789 --> 00:45:07,989
to have some insight into their
actions and how it can affect
685
00:45:08,029 --> 00:45:08,870
Catherine Ashton: another person.
686
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:14,570
And that's a good segue, I would say,
into, you know, your role as a team leader
687
00:45:14,570 --> 00:45:17,724
with Social Health Australia and that.
688
00:45:17,725 --> 00:45:21,395
that role of, of training people
in certain circumstances, but
689
00:45:21,655 --> 00:45:25,235
it's not really the only time that
you've been in that capacity as a,
690
00:45:25,545 --> 00:45:27,375
as an instructor or, or trainer.
691
00:45:27,755 --> 00:45:31,074
So I've, I've just got a list here
of, of different things that you've
692
00:45:31,074 --> 00:45:35,284
done, Annie, such as the meditation
instructor at Moorabbin Oncology.
693
00:45:35,635 --> 00:45:39,424
You've also spoken at Sterling
College and Monash Palliative
694
00:45:39,425 --> 00:45:41,925
Care about the Buddhist patient.
695
00:45:42,555 --> 00:45:44,595
That's a term I haven't heard before.
696
00:45:45,085 --> 00:45:46,345
The Buddhist patient.
697
00:45:46,535 --> 00:45:51,135
What is unique about a Buddhist
patient and and can you just explain
698
00:45:51,135 --> 00:45:52,535
that a little bit for us, please?
699
00:45:52,985 --> 00:45:53,315
Sure.
700
00:45:54,675 --> 00:45:57,775
Annie Whitlocke: As I said in Buddhism,
death is our greatest teacher.
701
00:45:58,830 --> 00:46:11,050
Because it reminds us that we will all
die, that we are finite creatures, and
702
00:46:13,100 --> 00:46:19,570
that when we die, one of the most
important things is for our mind to
703
00:46:19,599 --> 00:46:22,470
be in as peaceful a state as possible.
704
00:46:23,225 --> 00:46:27,525
For us to be as calm as
possible, if possible, of course.
705
00:46:29,335 --> 00:46:32,755
Then, we would use the, the meditation.
706
00:46:33,035 --> 00:46:36,005
Sometimes it depends on the individual.
707
00:46:37,355 --> 00:46:40,584
A death meditation can be very beneficial.
708
00:46:40,774 --> 00:46:41,384
Or not!
709
00:46:41,835 --> 00:46:43,425
It depends on the individual.
710
00:46:45,955 --> 00:46:50,445
After someone dies, I'm going to be going
a little bit backwards and forwards here.
711
00:46:50,955 --> 00:46:51,225
Sure.
712
00:46:51,385 --> 00:46:56,174
Usually when a Buddhist dies, they, a
very common request is to have no one
713
00:46:56,185 --> 00:46:58,394
to touch them at the time of death.
714
00:46:58,995 --> 00:47:05,120
Uh, in particular, around the The
feet, if it can be avoided, because
715
00:47:05,150 --> 00:47:12,419
at the time of death in, according to
Buddhism, to not touch the body, to
716
00:47:12,430 --> 00:47:17,570
have as little interference as possible,
so that the consciousness can leave
717
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:22,370
through the, the consciousness is said
to leave through the top of the head.
718
00:47:22,730 --> 00:47:27,610
So we will ask that their
feet are not touched, and
719
00:47:29,790 --> 00:47:35,785
that's basically a very, very simple Uh,
description of, of a Buddhist patient.
720
00:47:35,825 --> 00:47:39,445
Plus, uh, there will be
certain dietary things.
721
00:47:39,445 --> 00:47:45,175
There will be certain, uh, chants and
music and prayers that they will want.
722
00:47:45,795 --> 00:47:47,274
There will be,
723
00:47:49,525 --> 00:47:53,465
with the people, just because they're
Buddhists, doesn't necessarily mean
724
00:47:53,695 --> 00:47:58,395
that they are all conversant with the
stages of dying, according to Buddhism.
725
00:47:58,885 --> 00:48:02,845
One of the beautiful things about
the stages of dying in Buddhism,
726
00:48:02,845 --> 00:48:06,745
it's very similar to palliative
care and palliative care nurse and
727
00:48:06,745 --> 00:48:08,725
doctor can also recognize that.
728
00:48:09,294 --> 00:48:12,744
So we go by the four elements in the body.
729
00:48:13,195 --> 00:48:17,605
So, uh, when the earth element, the
earth element is the first one to,
730
00:48:17,845 --> 00:48:23,215
to go to leave the body, and that's
the, the, the, the weight of the body.
731
00:48:23,215 --> 00:48:24,595
We feel a weakness.
732
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:28,645
We cannot lift our heads, we cannot
talk, we cannot lift our arm.
733
00:48:28,855 --> 00:48:31,555
We just sink into the mattress.
734
00:48:31,855 --> 00:48:37,375
That's the earth element leaving,
and then it moves over to the,
735
00:48:37,555 --> 00:48:42,175
it could be the water element,
or perhaps it could be the heat.
736
00:48:42,465 --> 00:48:46,775
element, the fire element,
they can be interchangeable.
737
00:48:47,315 --> 00:48:53,355
And so if it is the water element, the
person will start feeling very thirsty.
738
00:48:53,665 --> 00:49:00,094
Their, um, the, the, the blood and
the things that will be and the, and
739
00:49:00,094 --> 00:49:04,829
the urine and all of the, the fluids
in the body, all start to change.
740
00:49:05,020 --> 00:49:09,330
Stop working as they did when all
of them organs were functioning.
741
00:49:09,330 --> 00:49:17,060
Now the organs are shutting down so the
water element is that's the dryness of
742
00:49:17,060 --> 00:49:22,140
the mouth and obviously usually when
someone is dying their mouth is quite
743
00:49:22,210 --> 00:49:25,480
open because they have that oxygen hunger.
744
00:49:26,380 --> 00:49:29,620
And so, and I explain that to the people.
745
00:49:29,910 --> 00:49:34,370
Then it will be the, the, the,
the, so the heat of the body.
746
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:40,340
And as I said, the, the heat of the
blood, the heart pumping, and when that
747
00:49:40,409 --> 00:49:48,160
leads, and then the last element is the
element of air, our last exhalation.
748
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:54,000
And so often I will say to people,
So this is the full circle.
749
00:49:54,330 --> 00:50:00,000
When you were born, you had your first
inhalation, and now you are dying,
750
00:50:00,260 --> 00:50:02,540
you will have your final exhalation.
751
00:50:04,319 --> 00:50:10,090
And that helps them to understand.
752
00:50:10,140 --> 00:50:14,529
Now some Buddhists do feel
comfortable with reincarnation.
753
00:50:15,159 --> 00:50:23,190
Not all do, but Which is why I say that if
they can become, if we can do everything
754
00:50:23,190 --> 00:50:28,000
in our power, that they have peace of
mind, that that peace of mind will then
755
00:50:28,030 --> 00:50:31,240
lead them to a beneficial reincarnation.
756
00:50:33,439 --> 00:50:37,239
So we don't want people,
uh, arguing in the room.
757
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:43,440
We don't want people crying out loud
or begging them, don't die, don't die.
758
00:50:43,930 --> 00:50:46,290
You cry, of course we can't help that.
759
00:50:46,860 --> 00:50:52,870
But, and no family conflict,
because that's the last thing
760
00:50:52,969 --> 00:50:55,049
that a dying person needs.
761
00:50:57,860 --> 00:50:59,540
Catherine Ashton: Because that's
correct in my understanding that
762
00:50:59,550 --> 00:51:01,570
hearing is the last sense to go.
763
00:51:01,710 --> 00:51:03,494
Hearing is the last sense to go.
764
00:51:03,665 --> 00:51:08,105
Annie Whitlocke: Yes, so I
encourage people to speak to them,
765
00:51:08,175 --> 00:51:12,625
even when they are unconscious,
even after they have died.
766
00:51:13,045 --> 00:51:19,065
And when they have died, then I will
say, uh, uh, a particular saying,
767
00:51:19,104 --> 00:51:24,774
and I will say this to people
who are Buddhist or not Buddhist.
768
00:51:25,275 --> 00:51:26,605
Can I read it out now?
769
00:51:27,345 --> 00:51:28,345
Yes, please, Annie.
770
00:51:28,405 --> 00:51:33,155
Okay, so I will call
this, uh, person Jane.
771
00:51:33,615 --> 00:51:34,395
Alright, Jane.
772
00:51:35,014 --> 00:51:37,625
Dearest Jane, you have now died.
773
00:51:38,195 --> 00:51:40,785
You are no longer in your physical body.
774
00:51:41,415 --> 00:51:42,304
This is right.
775
00:51:42,674 --> 00:51:44,335
This is as it should be.
776
00:51:45,230 --> 00:51:49,290
Please allow your soul to be
guided towards your next stage
777
00:51:49,710 --> 00:51:51,210
on this beautiful journey.
778
00:51:51,930 --> 00:51:53,440
Your life was lived well.
779
00:51:54,450 --> 00:51:59,810
Well, now no more of the countless
gems that you held close to you.
780
00:52:00,460 --> 00:52:02,600
Now no more of the times
that were difficult.
781
00:52:03,565 --> 00:52:05,495
This time has now ended.
782
00:52:06,325 --> 00:52:09,425
Please follow the direction
of your soul, your spirit.
783
00:52:10,255 --> 00:52:15,155
Many hearts full of love send their
limitless wishes for you, dear Jane.
784
00:52:16,005 --> 00:52:17,035
Go in peace.
785
00:52:17,455 --> 00:52:20,075
Go in trust that all will be well.
786
00:52:21,065 --> 00:52:22,584
Your stories remain on earth.
787
00:52:23,140 --> 00:52:29,330
And in the hearts of those who continue
to love you, have no fear at this time.
788
00:52:30,260 --> 00:52:34,140
You are now part of the endless
tune of all mortal beings.
789
00:52:34,780 --> 00:52:35,410
Rest.
790
00:52:36,060 --> 00:52:42,485
Now, sometimes, if the people are
interested, I will say that, You can
791
00:52:42,535 --> 00:52:50,575
actually, we can hold our hands close to
our hearts and to visualize that heartfelt
792
00:52:50,625 --> 00:52:54,105
love being directed to our hands.
793
00:52:55,035 --> 00:53:01,104
And then we place our hands on the person
and we send compassion and care from
794
00:53:01,125 --> 00:53:04,004
our hands to their now deceased body.
795
00:53:04,845 --> 00:53:08,865
Then we can begin the washing,
if that's what's wanted.
796
00:53:10,885 --> 00:53:12,015
Catherine Ashton: That's beautiful Annie.
797
00:53:12,855 --> 00:53:17,645
Now tell me, you just mentioned previously
about the fact that some people aren't
798
00:53:17,654 --> 00:53:20,405
comfortable with a reincarnation.
799
00:53:20,625 --> 00:53:23,094
Can you talk me through why that may be?
800
00:53:23,094 --> 00:53:28,224
Sorry, that is my cat falling
over things on my desk.
801
00:53:28,225 --> 00:53:32,755
But yeah, I'd be intrigued to hear about
why some people who are Buddhists may
802
00:53:32,755 --> 00:53:34,735
not be comfortable with reincarnation.
803
00:53:35,230 --> 00:53:35,780
Annie Whitlocke: Well,
804
00:53:36,670 --> 00:53:37,300
Catherine Ashton: Buddhism
805
00:53:37,300 --> 00:53:44,920
Annie Whitlocke: can take many different,
uh, it has many different faces, and
806
00:53:45,620 --> 00:53:49,920
even though as a Buddhist, we're usually
very comfortable with the concept of
807
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:57,140
reincarnation, some people, they will
call themselves a Buddhist, and, but
808
00:53:57,140 --> 00:54:02,679
there are certain things that they do
not follow, that they do not follow.
809
00:54:03,475 --> 00:54:05,915
Agree with and that's fine.
810
00:54:06,965 --> 00:54:11,105
There's no rigid rules Well, you can't
call yourself a Buddhist now because
811
00:54:11,115 --> 00:54:16,825
you know, you don't believe in that
Yeah, everyone will come to it with a
812
00:54:16,825 --> 00:54:24,345
different value and that value system
is What will color their their actions?
813
00:54:27,725 --> 00:54:31,815
Catherine Ashton: Okay, so that's, that's
good in me sort of understanding, like,
814
00:54:31,835 --> 00:54:37,295
that I was brought up in the Catholic
faith, and it's not a faith that I
815
00:54:37,685 --> 00:54:43,784
have, have practiced in, um, since I
was very young, uh, but the fact that,
816
00:54:44,075 --> 00:54:48,035
you know, to belong to, my understanding
of belonging to the Catholic faith is
817
00:54:48,315 --> 00:54:53,485
adhering to all doctrines, whereas for
something with what you're saying with
818
00:54:53,515 --> 00:54:55,725
Buddhism is that's very individualistic.
819
00:54:57,125 --> 00:55:01,145
in how you adhere to it, I suppose.
820
00:55:01,175 --> 00:55:01,965
Is that, would
821
00:55:01,965 --> 00:55:02,825
Annie Whitlocke: that be correct?
822
00:55:03,055 --> 00:55:03,695
Absolutely.
823
00:55:03,695 --> 00:55:10,845
The most important thing is that we
cause no harm, that we are compassionate,
824
00:55:11,074 --> 00:55:17,515
and if someone, uh, we don't like,
perhaps they've done bad things, we
825
00:55:17,674 --> 00:55:22,510
do not turn our Resentment onto them.
826
00:55:23,570 --> 00:55:26,470
So we accept full
responsibility ourselves.
827
00:55:26,710 --> 00:55:30,520
If we cannot help someone,
then do not hurt them.
828
00:55:30,530 --> 00:55:32,510
Do not harm them, at least.
829
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:37,020
So you don't have to
believe in reincarnation.
830
00:55:37,490 --> 00:55:43,449
You don't have to do all of the rituals
and the ceremonies and things like that.
831
00:55:43,699 --> 00:55:46,089
The most important thing is
that you're a good person.
832
00:55:48,429 --> 00:55:51,860
And that good person Can
833
00:55:54,270 --> 00:56:00,750
once again this is the uh the the
translation of what a good person means.
834
00:56:00,990 --> 00:56:07,200
So even some Buddhists who are
culturally Buddhist are not really
835
00:56:07,249 --> 00:56:09,430
clear on a lot of the teachings.
836
00:56:09,619 --> 00:56:13,109
Because they've been raised with
generational but perhaps they've
837
00:56:13,109 --> 00:56:15,869
never really questioned it.
838
00:56:15,949 --> 00:56:21,849
So sometimes people who have well
converted or have adopted Buddhism
839
00:56:22,429 --> 00:56:29,095
because they usually end up getting
really into it a bit more seriously.
840
00:56:29,475 --> 00:56:34,355
It's not uncommon that, uh, they
can often understand a bit more
841
00:56:34,355 --> 00:56:39,264
about it, but I'm not saying
that's across the board, obviously.
842
00:56:39,675 --> 00:56:43,014
Catherine Ashton: No, no, it sounds
like it's, it's, well, I suppose
843
00:56:43,014 --> 00:56:46,444
like any, any religion or it's
something that's very individual.
844
00:56:47,050 --> 00:56:47,590
It is.
845
00:56:47,690 --> 00:56:48,420
Exactly.
846
00:56:48,540 --> 00:56:49,050
Yes.
847
00:56:49,100 --> 00:56:49,690
Yes.
848
00:56:50,930 --> 00:56:58,109
Now, tell me Annie, what would you say
if you could provide, you know, advice to
849
00:56:58,140 --> 00:57:03,849
anyone in relation to if they're looking
at a terminal illness or supporting
850
00:57:03,849 --> 00:57:05,410
someone with a terminal illness?
851
00:57:05,890 --> 00:57:09,280
Do you have any advice that
we haven't mentioned already?
852
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:11,260
Probably.
853
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:15,660
Annie Whitlocke: Uh, I would always
encourage people or just usually to start
854
00:57:15,660 --> 00:57:17,380
talking about an advanced care directive.
855
00:57:18,570 --> 00:57:23,590
And this Advanced Care Directive, whether
or not it's put into place, at least
856
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:30,640
that person can get their wishes heard
by the people that are important to them.
857
00:57:31,140 --> 00:57:31,649
So, and I Annie,
858
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:35,919
Catherine Ashton: can you take me through
just the steps, what is involved in an
859
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,400
Advanced Care Directive, just so there's
no confusion about what that document is?
860
00:57:39,950 --> 00:57:40,260
Annie Whitlocke: Sure.
861
00:57:40,580 --> 00:57:46,280
An advanced care direct, uh, direction
or advanced care plan, it is only
862
00:57:46,310 --> 00:57:49,800
put into action when the person
is unable to speak for themselves.
863
00:57:50,490 --> 00:57:52,739
So this is something that
I always remind people.
864
00:57:52,770 --> 00:57:58,235
This is only when you're
unable to direct what you want.
865
00:57:58,835 --> 00:57:59,925
It's in writing.
866
00:57:59,945 --> 00:58:02,455
So your wishes will be followed.
867
00:58:02,755 --> 00:58:06,975
So an advanced care directive
comes in two, uh, sections.
868
00:58:06,975 --> 00:58:13,145
One is the, uh, instructional, and this
is the legal document that has to be
869
00:58:13,145 --> 00:58:14,895
signed by the doctor and witnessed.
870
00:58:15,135 --> 00:58:20,135
And then the other one is, oh,
this is embarrassing, So I've
871
00:58:20,435 --> 00:58:21,215
kind of forgotten what it was.
872
00:58:21,425 --> 00:58:23,301
Uh, so that's okay.
873
00:58:23,301 --> 00:58:24,557
But the
874
00:58:24,557 --> 00:58:25,184
Catherine Ashton: values.
875
00:58:25,185 --> 00:58:25,825
Ah, there you go.
876
00:58:25,825 --> 00:58:26,135
Values.
877
00:58:28,175 --> 00:58:30,695
Annie Whitlocke: And the values is
also very important because this
878
00:58:30,695 --> 00:58:33,775
is an opportunity to put down the
things that are important to you.
879
00:58:34,215 --> 00:58:38,225
In mine, I've got, uh, simple
things like I'm a Buddhist.
880
00:58:38,595 --> 00:58:40,265
These are the things that I would want.
881
00:58:40,275 --> 00:58:42,225
I would want time for meditation.
882
00:58:42,465 --> 00:58:44,875
I would, would want time
to listen to my prayers.
883
00:58:45,890 --> 00:58:52,680
I would, I don't eat broccoli, I don't
drink milk, I don't have a pillow, so
884
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,770
if anyone put a pillow under my head
I'd be put, I'd be throwing it on the
885
00:58:55,770 --> 00:58:58,810
ground and I have been in hospital
a few times and they put the pillow
886
00:58:58,860 --> 00:59:02,190
straight under my head and I said that
I don't want, but then a different nurse
887
00:59:02,190 --> 00:59:04,830
comes in and they think that they're
doing the right thing and no problem.
888
00:59:07,390 --> 00:59:13,720
Then also that I love touch, I love foot
massage, hand massage, leg, my back.
889
00:59:13,965 --> 00:59:14,835
Beautiful things.
890
00:59:15,135 --> 00:59:20,195
I, for me, dental hygiene, my hygiene,
my body hygiene is so important.
891
00:59:20,595 --> 00:59:26,335
So, and also, cream on my skin
after a wash and daily things like
892
00:59:26,335 --> 00:59:28,095
that and very important for me.
893
00:59:28,615 --> 00:59:33,465
I like to listen to certain music,
I like to have certain teachings.
894
00:59:33,845 --> 00:59:39,280
And so these are, there are also
there are Some people that I don't
895
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:41,140
want beside me when I'm dying.
896
00:59:42,140 --> 00:59:45,080
There are certain people
absolutely that I want you.
897
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:48,870
But there are definitely some
people that I don't want.
898
00:59:49,110 --> 00:59:52,870
These are the should people and I have a
pretty good idea what they would, I would
899
00:59:52,870 --> 00:59:54,730
know what they would be saying to me.
900
00:59:55,530 --> 00:59:58,760
But, uh, when you're dying you
don't really have much control.
901
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:00,630
You can't tell someone to bugger off.
902
01:00:01,030 --> 01:00:04,080
So, although some can,
you know, I have had that.
903
01:00:07,100 --> 01:00:10,640
Catherine Ashton: And for the people
who are supporting that, that person,
904
01:00:10,830 --> 01:00:16,040
uh, and, and surrounding that person,
uh, you know, towards end of life,
905
01:00:16,350 --> 01:00:21,890
what is some advice for them besides
perhaps practicing shut up ness?
906
01:00:24,340 --> 01:00:28,760
Annie Whitlocke: That we don't
get a dress rehearsal to die.
907
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:33,220
So the person.
908
01:00:33,610 --> 01:00:41,570
will be who is facing end of life will
be not uncommon for them to feel scared.
909
01:00:42,180 --> 01:00:43,730
They've never done this before.
910
01:00:45,350 --> 01:00:47,400
They don't know what's going to happen.
911
01:00:49,280 --> 01:01:02,960
That it's not advisable to say, just
relax, just calm down, because, uh, from
912
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:05,320
my experience, that doesn't really work.
913
01:01:05,810 --> 01:01:08,270
You need, you need a bit more than that.
914
01:01:08,530 --> 01:01:09,030
Really?
915
01:01:09,100 --> 01:01:10,570
Can you tell me how to relax?
916
01:01:10,570 --> 01:01:15,160
I'm, I'm sort of, now my breathing
is getting, uh, lesser and lesser.
917
01:01:15,180 --> 01:01:21,620
I can feel my body changing and it's
really hard for me to calm down.
918
01:01:22,020 --> 01:01:23,130
So, I would.
919
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:26,180
Encourage people to not
say things like that.
920
01:01:27,270 --> 01:01:28,720
Be with that person.
921
01:01:29,210 --> 01:01:31,980
You don't have to fill
up the space with words.
922
01:01:32,270 --> 01:01:33,740
Just a gentle touch.
923
01:01:34,450 --> 01:01:37,800
Maybe to put some music on
that you know that they like.
924
01:01:37,860 --> 01:01:39,330
Keep it really simple.
925
01:01:40,420 --> 01:01:43,820
Have your friends around
there, sitting with them.
926
01:01:45,065 --> 01:01:50,515
If they want to talk about old times,
if they want to talk about the, the
927
01:01:50,515 --> 01:01:57,255
stories, the shared stories, good, bad,
or otherwise, you know, it's when someone
928
01:01:57,255 --> 01:02:07,449
is dying, they develop a lean sense of
expression, and, and they I love it.
929
01:02:09,570 --> 01:02:15,570
Have excellent bullshit detectors so
if someone comes in and they start
930
01:02:15,620 --> 01:02:19,330
wafting on about something, you
know, that person's not interested.
931
01:02:19,330 --> 01:02:21,210
And I've heard this so many times.
932
01:02:22,020 --> 01:02:23,900
So, just be real.
933
01:02:24,460 --> 01:02:25,550
Be vulnerable.
934
01:02:26,430 --> 01:02:27,230
Be humble.
935
01:02:27,820 --> 01:02:29,100
Because you're going to die too.
936
01:02:29,610 --> 01:02:35,340
So you might as well get
something from this experience.
937
01:02:36,100 --> 01:02:40,030
Maybe you could use it in your
own advanced care directive.
938
01:02:40,310 --> 01:02:43,810
Well, you know, like I had this experience
and that's something that I don't want.
939
01:02:43,810 --> 01:02:45,880
So I'm going to put that in
my advanced care directive.
940
01:02:46,180 --> 01:02:49,240
Or at least I'm going to be able
to speak to people about it.
941
01:02:49,420 --> 01:02:50,960
This is what I do not want.
942
01:02:52,705 --> 01:02:56,835
Some people find it really difficult to
think of things that they do want, but
943
01:02:56,835 --> 01:03:00,885
they don't seem to have much trouble
in figuring out what they don't want.
944
01:03:02,105 --> 01:03:03,775
Catherine Ashton: And maybe is
that a good place for people
945
01:03:03,775 --> 01:03:05,725
to start if they don't know?
946
01:03:06,445 --> 01:03:08,135
Annie Whitlocke: Yeah, exactly.
947
01:03:08,425 --> 01:03:13,335
I mean, how many of us contemplate
that time when we will have no
948
01:03:13,395 --> 01:03:17,615
control over our body and the
circumstances and the outcome?
949
01:03:18,775 --> 01:03:20,205
It's a bit alien, isn't it?
950
01:03:21,285 --> 01:03:21,795
Catherine Ashton: Yeah.
951
01:03:22,115 --> 01:03:27,945
And if it's also hard to think about
that really personal time of, of
952
01:03:27,975 --> 01:03:33,775
death, maybe people could think about
something a little bit more removed
953
01:03:33,775 --> 01:03:39,205
and the funeral service, what, what did
they like or what didn't they like at
954
01:03:39,205 --> 01:03:41,125
a funeral service that they attended?
955
01:03:41,805 --> 01:03:45,005
And then perhaps, you know,
become a little bit more intimate
956
01:03:45,035 --> 01:03:46,725
with detail from there on in.
957
01:03:47,060 --> 01:03:52,450
Annie Whitlocke: Well, I know as soon as
I usually see the person and usually, you
958
01:03:52,450 --> 01:03:57,280
know, the first time that I meet them,
I will ask, you know, do you want, first
959
01:03:57,280 --> 01:03:59,320
of all, we, we agree on the language.
960
01:03:59,370 --> 01:04:02,940
And I said, are you okay
if I say death and dying?
961
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:06,770
And, uh, I've never had anyone say no.
962
01:04:06,820 --> 01:04:09,385
I said, because I, Because then
they say pass or when you're
963
01:04:09,395 --> 01:04:10,705
gone or something like this.
964
01:04:10,705 --> 01:04:14,025
And I, I said, we both need
to be on the same page.
965
01:04:14,235 --> 01:04:17,135
So if I say something,
we both know what I mean.
966
01:04:17,165 --> 01:04:20,045
And if you say something,
we both know what you mean.
967
01:04:20,075 --> 01:04:26,505
So then I will ask them, have they decided
if they want to be cremated or buried?
968
01:04:27,415 --> 01:04:28,615
It's not unusual.
969
01:04:29,535 --> 01:04:31,025
I have never had this conversation.
970
01:04:31,670 --> 01:04:32,380
Catherine Ashton: Yeah.
971
01:04:32,660 --> 01:04:36,480
Annie Whitlocke: And their people,
sometimes I will ask them, does so
972
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:38,480
and so want to be cremated or buried?
973
01:04:38,740 --> 01:04:40,290
Well, we've never had that talk.
974
01:04:40,950 --> 01:04:45,750
And I've seen some really unfortunate
situations when the person has died and
975
01:04:45,750 --> 01:04:50,160
their people, they don't know what they
wanted because it was never spoken.
976
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:54,270
We don't know what mom or dad
or my brother or my sister, we
977
01:04:54,270 --> 01:04:55,410
don't know what they wanted.
978
01:04:55,430 --> 01:04:59,820
So they've got to try and, and think of.
979
01:05:00,300 --> 01:05:03,190
of what that person would have
wanted and they feel what if
980
01:05:03,300 --> 01:05:04,700
it's not what they wanted.
981
01:05:05,490 --> 01:05:09,870
So this is why speaking
about it is is so important.
982
01:05:10,950 --> 01:05:12,170
Then funerals,
983
01:05:14,350 --> 01:05:17,760
we can have so many
different kinds of funerals.
984
01:05:17,780 --> 01:05:19,930
Now, Beth Lyons was great.
985
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:25,400
And when you when you when you gave
that interview just recently, because
986
01:05:25,410 --> 01:05:28,900
she is a master of home funerals.
987
01:05:29,795 --> 01:05:38,065
And beautiful, beautiful woman and I
have seen many beautiful home funerals
988
01:05:38,075 --> 01:05:45,015
and even hybrid that the body can come
home from their nursing home, from
989
01:05:45,075 --> 01:05:51,285
palliative care, from the coroners and
they can come home to have a vigil.
990
01:05:51,905 --> 01:05:58,555
So that all the important people to
that person come around and maybe they,
991
01:05:58,775 --> 01:06:01,005
they sleep in the same room with them.
992
01:06:01,285 --> 01:06:05,245
Maybe they have a party around them.
993
01:06:05,575 --> 01:06:10,955
Whatever that person would have liked,
then they could do that around them.
994
01:06:11,910 --> 01:06:17,430
And also, there's the benefit of
a living funeral, a living wake.
995
01:06:18,350 --> 01:06:24,010
Now, I've been involved in a couple of
these and they have been so precious
996
01:06:24,910 --> 01:06:31,490
that, uh, Sarah and I went to this lady's
one she had because I suggested to her
997
01:06:31,820 --> 01:06:34,100
a living wake and she loved the idea.
998
01:06:34,210 --> 01:06:37,400
Oh, that was, and that was something
that she could get into and her
999
01:06:37,410 --> 01:06:42,310
friends, you know, and she had the
most beautiful one, a five star one.
1000
01:06:42,510 --> 01:06:43,440
And then this other lady.
1001
01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:47,990
Lady, an elderly lady, and she
had just a really casual one,
1002
01:06:47,990 --> 01:06:49,610
but they were both beautiful.
1003
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:54,530
It's inviting people to come and to
share their stories with the person
1004
01:06:54,530 --> 01:07:01,930
who is going to die, and then everyone
interconnecting and understanding
1005
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:07,000
this, the warp and weft of all these
stories, how we all came to be here.
1006
01:07:07,695 --> 01:07:12,505
Catherine Ashton: Yeah, yeah, because
we, I think as we get older, you know,
1007
01:07:12,685 --> 01:07:18,535
I'm, I'm in my mid forties now and, and
really, we're at the stage now where my
1008
01:07:18,535 --> 01:07:24,440
son's about to have his 21st, but you
know, other than that, you know, it's What
1009
01:07:24,470 --> 01:07:26,560
50th, it'd be the next big celebration.
1010
01:07:26,940 --> 01:07:31,520
But I loved when I interviewed Jennifer
Argo recently that she, she makes
1011
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:35,720
sure that every single birthday is a
celebration and gets everyone together.
1012
01:07:35,850 --> 01:07:39,640
Because I think that we don't,
we don't get our people together
1013
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:43,510
often enough and have fun and
we don't make those connections
1014
01:07:43,510 --> 01:07:44,980
of how you all knew each other.
1015
01:07:45,260 --> 01:07:49,100
And my husband recently gave a talk
and it was really beautiful to actually
1016
01:07:49,110 --> 01:07:51,610
be in the room where I could see.
1017
01:07:51,825 --> 01:07:55,965
His, you know, people that he
went to, you know, VCA with and
1018
01:07:55,965 --> 01:07:58,045
then our old neighbors from St.
1019
01:07:58,045 --> 01:08:01,685
Kilda and then his aunt, uh, and cousins.
1020
01:08:01,685 --> 01:08:03,665
And, and that was really beautiful.
1021
01:08:03,705 --> 01:08:07,705
So I could only imagine how much
more powerful that would be.
1022
01:08:08,765 --> 01:08:11,445
When you are terminal and you
know that you're dying to actually
1023
01:08:11,445 --> 01:08:12,845
connect those people together.
1024
01:08:13,105 --> 01:08:15,795
Annie Whitlocke: Yes, some people
think oh, it sounds like it's
1025
01:08:15,795 --> 01:08:17,225
a bit like it's all about men.
1026
01:08:17,225 --> 01:08:20,045
I go no because it's about them.
1027
01:08:20,175 --> 01:08:23,675
How often do we tell our
friends and acquaintances?
1028
01:08:24,345 --> 01:08:27,975
You actually mean a lot to me
and that you're really precious
1029
01:08:27,975 --> 01:08:31,545
and I'm so glad that I'm in your
life and that you're in my life.
1030
01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:37,410
One of the things that you mentioned about
your child, have you spoken to your child?
1031
01:08:37,500 --> 01:08:39,230
So they're only 20, 21.
1032
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:43,090
What would they want if they had died?
1033
01:08:43,330 --> 01:08:45,170
Would they want to donate their organs?
1034
01:08:45,910 --> 01:08:49,010
Would they be, would they
want a cremation or a burial?
1035
01:08:49,190 --> 01:08:50,230
What would they want?
1036
01:08:50,250 --> 01:08:53,799
It's challenging, isn't it, to have
that conversation with your young child.
1037
01:08:53,810 --> 01:08:55,000
20 years old, still a young
1038
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:55,420
Catherine Ashton: child.
1039
01:08:55,790 --> 01:08:56,230
Yes.
1040
01:08:56,230 --> 01:08:58,650
I think, I think he'd prefer
conversations about death
1041
01:08:58,980 --> 01:09:00,570
rather than sex with his mother.
1042
01:09:02,370 --> 01:09:06,950
Um, but, um, but no, look, we've,
we've always had very, very open
1043
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:09,200
conversations about any topic.
1044
01:09:09,210 --> 01:09:15,720
And Ethan, uh, he traveled overseas
last year, uh, and to work and we made
1045
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:20,290
sure as soon as he was 18, that he had
a willing place and a power of attorney.
1046
01:09:20,290 --> 01:09:23,674
So if he was overseas, we
could provide him with that.
1047
01:09:23,705 --> 01:09:27,005
with financial support and access
and could do anything that he
1048
01:09:27,005 --> 01:09:30,545
needed on to be done on his
behalf while he was over there.
1049
01:09:30,895 --> 01:09:34,955
Uh, but he has a will and, and, and
I've had a will since the age of 18.
1050
01:09:34,995 --> 01:09:39,705
That was how I was raised, but
I'm, I'm realizing I am the
1051
01:09:39,705 --> 01:09:41,965
exception, not the standard.
1052
01:09:42,205 --> 01:09:42,515
Yes.
1053
01:09:42,785 --> 01:09:43,005
You
1054
01:09:43,005 --> 01:09:43,315
Annie Whitlocke: are the
1055
01:09:43,315 --> 01:09:43,955
Catherine Ashton: exception.
1056
01:09:44,395 --> 01:09:44,855
Annie Whitlocke: You are.
1057
01:09:45,425 --> 01:09:51,265
And also one of the things is
that when someone is heading
1058
01:09:51,265 --> 01:09:53,245
towards their dying time, they
1059
01:09:55,550 --> 01:09:56,030
Uh,
1060
01:09:58,210 --> 01:09:59,090
how can I say this?
1061
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:09,580
How many times do all of these people
come out of the woodwork when the
1062
01:10:09,580 --> 01:10:12,060
person is maybe got a week to live?
1063
01:10:12,100 --> 01:10:19,400
They're so weak and debilitated on
drugs and all these people start coming
1064
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:25,410
in saying goodbye and sitting with
them and many times, not all the time,
1065
01:10:25,690 --> 01:10:30,020
many times that person has said to
me afterwards, why do they come now?
1066
01:10:30,540 --> 01:10:32,710
I haven't seen them for months.
1067
01:10:33,290 --> 01:10:36,210
Why didn't they come when I was
able to hold a conversation?
1068
01:10:37,140 --> 01:10:41,950
Why now, when they're just weak and all
they can do is manage a little grin?
1069
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:46,850
Have you ever had anything
like that, Catherine?
1070
01:10:48,170 --> 01:10:52,130
Catherine Ashton: Yeah, I have and
I'd even take it a step further to the
1071
01:10:52,130 --> 01:10:59,010
point where, you know, for us, and this
is the whole catalyst of why I'm, I've
1072
01:10:59,190 --> 01:11:03,480
done the podcast and the business and,
you know, we had three friends die last
1073
01:11:03,480 --> 01:11:08,240
year and, and my husband's best friend
being the most significant of that.
1074
01:11:08,580 --> 01:11:14,160
But then, Again this year we had, you
know, someone who was a close friend.
1075
01:11:14,620 --> 01:11:19,190
Uh, we haven't seen him for a few years.
1076
01:11:19,530 --> 01:11:22,970
Uh, we got a phone call, Rod got a
phone call out of the blue to say that
1077
01:11:22,970 --> 01:11:25,680
he had been found dead in his house.
1078
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:31,010
Uh, because no one had heard from him
for a while and he's now at the coroner.
1079
01:11:31,250 --> 01:11:37,035
But, you know, it's It's not also waiting
for, waiting for people to be terminal.
1080
01:11:37,395 --> 01:11:41,935
It's just reaching out to people
at any stage and making sure that,
1081
01:11:42,015 --> 01:11:45,815
you know, because we assume that
they're just going about their normal
1082
01:11:45,815 --> 01:11:47,875
everyday life like they always are.
1083
01:11:48,365 --> 01:11:51,145
And then it's a real shock when you
find out that that's not the case,
1084
01:11:51,155 --> 01:11:55,705
that, you know, someone has died
and they're no longer just doing
1085
01:11:55,705 --> 01:11:57,460
what you Expect them to be doing
1086
01:11:58,010 --> 01:12:00,390
Annie Whitlocke: it's well said that
they're not doing what you expect
1087
01:12:00,390 --> 01:12:05,690
them to be doing Yes, and we do know
that we like to compartmentalize.
1088
01:12:05,690 --> 01:12:06,080
Okay.
1089
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:09,080
Well, they're over there They're doing
this and I'm doing this and I'm busy
1090
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:12,050
and things like that And then all of
a sudden you find that out and then
1091
01:12:12,220 --> 01:12:16,000
did you have a question yourself that
I wish we kind of visited them more
1092
01:12:17,955 --> 01:12:20,385
Catherine Ashton: Yeah, look,
I, I, I did to a degree.
1093
01:12:20,465 --> 01:12:25,645
The relationship was, was sort of more
sitting with my husband and we were
1094
01:12:25,665 --> 01:12:30,435
maybe closer at another period of time
in his life, but yeah, you kind of,
1095
01:12:32,785 --> 01:12:40,060
I recently text everyone in my phone
who I've, I've got in my phone and let
1096
01:12:40,060 --> 01:12:45,250
them know what I was doing and said,
look, I'd, I'd love for you to still be
1097
01:12:45,530 --> 01:12:49,140
in contact with me, you know, give me
a call sometime or something like that.
1098
01:12:49,730 --> 01:12:50,450
And.
1099
01:12:51,115 --> 01:12:56,205
I'm really happy I've done that because
you never know what other people
1100
01:12:56,205 --> 01:12:57,765
might be doing at the other end.
1101
01:12:58,205 --> 01:13:01,495
You know, they may not be living the life
that you think that they were living.
1102
01:13:01,655 --> 01:13:02,375
Annie Whitlocke: Exactly.
1103
01:13:03,445 --> 01:13:03,865
Um.
1104
01:13:04,375 --> 01:13:07,425
Sometimes you may not even find out
because not everyone is going to
1105
01:13:07,425 --> 01:13:10,125
let you know because maybe they're
not comfortable because that's
1106
01:13:10,135 --> 01:13:11,295
the kind of life that I'm living.
1107
01:13:11,295 --> 01:13:13,305
I don't want anyone to know about that.
1108
01:13:14,095 --> 01:13:14,655
Catherine Ashton: Yeah.
1109
01:13:14,905 --> 01:13:15,245
Yeah.
1110
01:13:15,655 --> 01:13:20,385
And also, like, since starting the
business that, you know, I had a, an
1111
01:13:20,395 --> 01:13:25,945
old colleague reach out to me who had
been diagnosed as being terminal, uh,
1112
01:13:25,945 --> 01:13:30,945
and, and she asked for support and, and,
you know, you just can never assume.
1113
01:13:31,635 --> 01:13:34,785
That you know how someone is
going on the other side, you know?
1114
01:13:36,135 --> 01:13:40,055
Annie Whitlocke: So how do you think
someone would be able to find out?
1115
01:13:41,805 --> 01:13:46,165
Catherine Ashton: I think staying in
contact, you know, and, you know, it
1116
01:13:46,165 --> 01:13:52,035
doesn't have to be a milestone occasion
or anything along that line and, and you
1117
01:13:52,035 --> 01:13:55,435
know how sometimes, you know, you get
busy with life and kids and all the rest
1118
01:13:55,435 --> 01:13:59,684
of it and, and, you know, you lose touch,
but I don't think that they're, you know,
1119
01:14:00,135 --> 01:14:02,545
should be shame associated with that.
1120
01:14:02,585 --> 01:14:06,785
I think that, you know, just bloody reach
out and, and, you know, cause it's so
1121
01:14:06,785 --> 01:14:09,005
much better that you actually did do that.
1122
01:14:09,315 --> 01:14:13,385
And, you know, I've, I've actually only
two weeks ago had dinner, uh, with a
1123
01:14:13,385 --> 01:14:16,725
girlfriend who, you know, we both ended
up having children at the same time,
1124
01:14:17,145 --> 01:14:20,585
you know, 20 years later, you know,
we're, we're back having dinner again.
1125
01:14:20,955 --> 01:14:22,975
And I'm so happy that we did because.
1126
01:14:23,470 --> 01:14:28,230
you know, you remind yourself about,
I suppose, part of your life as
1127
01:14:28,230 --> 01:14:34,260
well and about of you, of that who
you were, what, what ignited in you
1128
01:14:34,690 --> 01:14:36,170
that you love about that person.
1129
01:14:36,170 --> 01:14:40,070
So I think that it's a bit of
rediscovering yourself as well, you know,
1130
01:14:40,180 --> 01:14:43,270
so I think that that's good to reach out.
1131
01:14:44,105 --> 01:14:46,485
Annie Whitlocke: Yeah, I think
it is, yeah, to, to rediscover,
1132
01:14:46,825 --> 01:14:48,285
that's right, I like that.
1133
01:14:50,185 --> 01:14:53,045
Catherine Ashton: And Annie, have
you got any other thoughts that you'd
1134
01:14:53,045 --> 01:14:54,945
like to share with our listeners?
1135
01:14:55,575 --> 01:14:57,145
Well, for the other
1136
01:14:57,155 --> 01:15:00,915
Annie Whitlocke: Death Duelers, and
also for anyone who's interested in, uh,
1137
01:15:00,965 --> 01:15:05,315
getting a Death, to ask the Death Dueler,
do they work with another Death Dueler?
1138
01:15:05,845 --> 01:15:11,805
So from my experience, you know, if
you've got, uh, two, three, or four
1139
01:15:11,805 --> 01:15:14,705
people that you're working with, and.
1140
01:15:15,010 --> 01:15:22,220
Perhaps, uh, some of them start, uh,
they're, uh, declined at a similar time.
1141
01:15:22,570 --> 01:15:25,930
You really need, this is from my
own experience, to have another
1142
01:15:25,930 --> 01:15:31,850
death doula similar minded that
you can both help one another.
1143
01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:35,950
Now, I think on the weekend
you met Barb Ferguson.
1144
01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:40,110
Catherine Ashton: Yes, yes, the
other, the other weekend with,
1145
01:15:40,140 --> 01:15:41,520
uh, Denise Love's workshop.
1146
01:15:42,070 --> 01:15:46,850
Annie Whitlocke: So, Barb and I worked
together as a bit of a tag team and,
1147
01:15:47,190 --> 01:15:53,190
uh, so, uh, so after I've had, uh,
three spine operations, so after my last
1148
01:15:53,190 --> 01:15:57,080
one, I can no longer do the washing of
the body and the dressing of the body.
1149
01:15:57,820 --> 01:16:00,080
Uh, Barb will do that.
1150
01:16:00,900 --> 01:16:05,590
Also sometimes, you know, I can't get
there at a certain time, so I will
1151
01:16:05,630 --> 01:16:07,820
ask Barb and she will cover for me.
1152
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:10,340
Or if she can't do it,
then I will cover for her.
1153
01:16:10,450 --> 01:16:10,829
So, Barb will do it.
1154
01:16:11,510 --> 01:16:11,980
And.
1155
01:16:12,545 --> 01:16:19,045
So then there is that, I think it's really
important to have that seamless, uh,
1156
01:16:19,095 --> 01:16:21,015
transfer from one person to the other.
1157
01:16:21,025 --> 01:16:23,445
So we will meet people sometimes together.
1158
01:16:23,855 --> 01:16:28,015
A couple of weeks ago we both
met, uh, this woman together,
1159
01:16:28,355 --> 01:16:29,615
uh, with her daughter.
1160
01:16:29,655 --> 01:16:32,985
And so, and we both, and so
Barb would say her thing.
1161
01:16:33,215 --> 01:16:36,525
I would say my thing about what
the woman was speaking about.
1162
01:16:36,885 --> 01:16:39,575
And they could feel comfortable
that, yeah, they're going to be
1163
01:16:39,575 --> 01:16:43,235
held, they're going to be held in.
1164
01:16:44,645 --> 01:16:49,415
I've always been a bit suspicious about
this word love, but they are going to be
1165
01:16:49,415 --> 01:16:55,025
held in love because they're going to be
safe, they're going to be so respected.
1166
01:16:55,325 --> 01:17:02,035
So to have a one or two that you work with
is really good, highly recommend that.
1167
01:17:02,590 --> 01:17:06,740
Get your advanced care directive, even
if you, it's a bit daunting when people
1168
01:17:06,750 --> 01:17:13,090
start it, but just to start opening up
the conversations once a week, once a
1169
01:17:13,110 --> 01:17:17,760
month, have a, have a round table with
your friends, your family, your neighbors,
1170
01:17:17,780 --> 01:17:22,350
and say, okay And this is when you'll
usually find out about the things that
1171
01:17:22,380 --> 01:17:24,790
went pear shaped in other people's lives.
1172
01:17:25,080 --> 01:17:27,900
And you're really going to go,
oh yeah, I can relate to that.
1173
01:17:27,950 --> 01:17:28,840
I don't want that either.
1174
01:17:29,110 --> 01:17:30,070
So I'm going to write that down.
1175
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:36,380
I think you, there is, I've, I
have prepared for my own death.
1176
01:17:37,100 --> 01:17:41,000
So when you come in the, the, the
front door, on the right hand side,
1177
01:17:41,020 --> 01:17:42,840
I've got for medical emergency.
1178
01:17:43,360 --> 01:17:44,140
And, uh, A4.
1179
01:17:45,090 --> 01:17:47,320
And then I've got my
advanced care directive.
1180
01:17:47,670 --> 01:17:52,870
I've got my body donor, you know,
form, and I've also written a
1181
01:17:52,870 --> 01:17:57,830
letter for the body donor when they
take my body, if I am accepted.
1182
01:17:58,410 --> 01:18:01,830
And it's got my will, it's got
everything, it's got all my animals,
1183
01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:06,240
it's got the people to contact if
this happens, contact that person.
1184
01:18:06,580 --> 01:18:08,970
It's got my executives,
everything is there.
1185
01:18:09,365 --> 01:18:15,345
Doesn't look pretty, I must
admit, um, for interior decorator,
1186
01:18:15,575 --> 01:18:16,905
but it's very functional.
1187
01:18:18,055 --> 01:18:19,015
Catherine Ashton: I've seen it many times.
1188
01:18:19,025 --> 01:18:20,225
And very important.
1189
01:18:20,325 --> 01:18:21,195
Annie Whitlocke: Very important.
1190
01:18:21,235 --> 01:18:21,775
So many times.
1191
01:18:21,815 --> 01:18:23,605
Yes, I've got an advanced care directive.
1192
01:18:23,655 --> 01:18:25,365
It's rolled up in the freezer.
1193
01:18:25,365 --> 01:18:28,384
And I said, I don't think
that's a good place for it.
1194
01:18:28,745 --> 01:18:30,605
Catherine Ashton: No, no, not at all.
1195
01:18:30,725 --> 01:18:33,755
Annie Whitlocke: Which is why Lisa,
who wrote the bottom draw book, that's
1196
01:18:33,755 --> 01:18:35,165
why she called it the Bottom Draw book.
1197
01:18:35,165 --> 01:18:38,105
You know, most of all our in
really important information
1198
01:18:38,110 --> 01:18:38,945
is in that bottom draw.
1199
01:18:38,945 --> 01:18:41,195
Get it out, bring it out to the open
1200
01:18:42,185 --> 01:18:42,965
.
Catherine Ashton: Yeah, totally.
1201
01:18:42,965 --> 01:18:43,835
Exactly.
1202
01:18:44,045 --> 01:18:48,275
And, and that's the whole concept of,
of sort of the app that I'm, I'm working
1203
01:18:48,275 --> 01:18:51,155
on is, is just to, to, to get it out.
1204
01:18:51,205 --> 01:18:53,945
document it and, uh, and to
share it with loved ones.
1205
01:18:54,265 --> 01:18:56,955
So we're, uh, we're all aware
and we don't get caught in the
1206
01:18:56,955 --> 01:18:58,465
situation we were last year.
1207
01:18:59,095 --> 01:19:04,025
And, and just, just on that, Annie,
I just noted that, you know, what
1208
01:19:04,025 --> 01:19:08,935
was in that pile of papers then
was a letter to your body donor.
1209
01:19:09,155 --> 01:19:09,895
Ah, yes.
1210
01:19:09,965 --> 01:19:12,905
You can't just drop that
and then not explain that.
1211
01:19:14,335 --> 01:19:17,075
Annie Whitlocke: My mom
actually, uh, donated.
1212
01:19:17,255 --> 01:19:26,105
Her body and I when they had the memorial
at Melbourne University, I saw these
1213
01:19:26,105 --> 01:19:30,645
young medical students standing up and
most of them said this was the first
1214
01:19:30,685 --> 01:19:36,365
time that I had actually seen a dead
body and you know, and I'm so grateful.
1215
01:19:36,635 --> 01:19:42,255
That this person gave me permission
to use their body for medical science.
1216
01:19:43,635 --> 01:19:49,765
And I'm thinking, how can it be that
a young adult, so many of them, have
1217
01:19:49,795 --> 01:19:51,905
never seen a dead person before?
1218
01:19:52,385 --> 01:19:55,995
So I wanted to let them
know a bit about me.
1219
01:19:56,785 --> 01:19:59,975
So I wrote this, this, this letter.
1220
01:20:00,145 --> 01:20:04,065
And I hope that it will go
with, it's instructed, they will
1221
01:20:04,065 --> 01:20:05,515
have to take it with my body.
1222
01:20:06,205 --> 01:20:06,805
Oh, that's great.
1223
01:20:06,805 --> 01:20:07,105
Thank you.
1224
01:20:07,825 --> 01:20:13,735
And so that they will read it and
I've been very open in it and,
1225
01:20:13,795 --> 01:20:19,925
uh, very, uh, vulnerable and,
uh, and I, and I was very honest.
1226
01:20:20,595 --> 01:20:28,270
This is a life that I have led and now
I, uh, I offer my body to you and may
1227
01:20:28,280 --> 01:20:34,430
it serve some purpose so then that I
can still benefit others from my death.
1228
01:20:36,670 --> 01:20:40,500
Catherine Ashton: Oh Annie, do you
mind if I get a copy of that letter
1229
01:20:40,500 --> 01:20:43,820
and pop it in the show notes so our
listeners can perhaps have a read?
1230
01:20:44,010 --> 01:20:45,390
Please, please.
1231
01:20:45,410 --> 01:20:46,810
Oh, that'd be lovely.
1232
01:20:48,290 --> 01:20:51,390
Annie, I can't thank you
enough for your time today.
1233
01:20:51,390 --> 01:20:52,930
It's been an absolute pleasure.
1234
01:20:53,970 --> 01:20:55,160
Annie Whitlocke: Thank you, Catherine.
1235
01:20:55,650 --> 01:20:58,330
And, uh, and lovely to meet Bandit.
1236
01:21:04,180 --> 01:21:07,600
Catherine Ashton: We hope you enjoyed
today's episode of Don't Be Caught Dead.
1237
01:21:07,910 --> 01:21:09,500
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1238
01:21:10,430 --> 01:21:13,820
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1239
01:21:13,820 --> 01:21:16,350
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1240
01:21:16,795 --> 01:21:19,195
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1241
01:21:19,335 --> 01:21:22,105
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1242
01:21:22,295 --> 01:21:26,425
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1243
01:21:26,435 --> 01:21:28,155
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1244
01:21:28,485 --> 01:21:29,845
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1245
01:21:29,985 --> 01:21:33,455
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1246
01:21:33,755 --> 01:21:35,335
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1247
01:21:35,785 --> 01:21:37,625
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1248
01:21:37,685 --> 01:21:41,055
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Read Less
Resources
- Annie completed training with;
- Christine Longaker
- Dr Michael Barbato
- Denise Love
- DeathWalker training with Zenith Virago.
-
Contact Annie Whitlocke here.
-
'The Believer' by Sarah Krasnostein - Annie is one of the central stories in this book. She discusses how this book impacted her and her connection to the story through her interviews with the author.
-
ABC Compass episode, hosted by popular journalist and broadcaster, Indira Naidoo. Annie referenced: ‘Goodbye My Dog’
-
Annie refers to reading; Grist for the Mill, Awakening to Oneness Ram Dass
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