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What do you believe is the most
challenging aspect that you've had to work

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on with people who have lost a loved one?

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Not knowing what they're
supposed to feel like.

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You get some people who can't stop crying.

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And they say, oh, I can't stop
crying, I can't do anything.

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00:00:21,040 - ... Read More

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What do you believe is the most
challenging aspect that you've had to work

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on with people who have lost a loved one?

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Not knowing what they're
supposed to feel like.

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You get some people who can't stop crying.

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And they say, oh, I can't stop
crying, I can't do anything.

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And I say, well that's fine.

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You will eventually, but
you've got to work it out.

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I get other people that I visit
and they say, Oh, I feel terrible.

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I haven't cried yet.

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That was me.

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I haven't.

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Still haven't had this
huge cry from my husband.

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But, in talking to them I find out their
loved one had been ill for quite a while.

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And they'd been preparing for this.

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They knew it was going to happen, they
just didn't know the exact day and time.

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So they've had what, uh, A
great woman that I know said

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to me was anticipatory grief.

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So you've had that, you've had your
grieving every day leading up to it.

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And that made sense to me.

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For the people who are crying all the
time, it's usually, it's come as a shock.

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There's no easy way to die.

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There's no easy way to
have a loved one die.

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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a
podcast encouraging open conversations

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about dying and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death back to
life because while you may not be ready

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to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin nations

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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.

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We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging and extend

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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Jacqueline Slater, or Jackie as she's
preferred to be known, is an authorised

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marriage celebrant, funeral celebrant,
and president of the Funeral Celebrants

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Association of Australia, and also
a member of the Celebrant Network.

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She has experience in event management,
hospitality, and business administration.

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For the past 40 years she has
worked in the funeral industry.

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Jackie describes her celebrant services
as ceremonies for life, love and loss.

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Thank you for joining us today, Jackie.

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Thank you for having me.

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Now, Jackie, tell me what led you
to become a funeral celebrant?

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Well, it all started over 40
years ago when I was a young

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mum with two young children and
I got a job as a Saturday girl.

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With a funeral director, for anyone
who doesn't know what a Saturday girl

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is, it's someone that goes in, works
on a Saturday, doing admin work.

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And I started out and learned how
to do admin work, how to arrange

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a funeral when a family came in,
because we were just a couple of

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doors down from the local hospital.

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So people would walk down, When they'd
lost someone, walk down straight away

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and say, I need to arrange a funeral.

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The person that I worked for also
owned a local cemetery and crematorium.

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It was independently owned.

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And so, I became the Wednesday girl.

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Bit like a Saturday
girl, but on a Wednesday.

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And it was Wednesday
because that was pay day.

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And they needed someone in the
office and someone to go to the bank.

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My duties and, uh, knowledge
there grew and grew.

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My days there increased and grew and
grew till when the manager retired.

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I became manager of the
cemetery and crematorium.

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And by this time, my duties at the
funeral directors had decreased.

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as my duties at the cemetery
and crematorium had increased.

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Now, working in a cemetery and
a crematorium, you see lots

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and lots and lots of funerals.

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You see good funerals, you see bad
funerals, and you see mediocre funerals.

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And when I say bad, I
saw some really bad ones.

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And what do you mean by bad funerals?

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I'm not going to mention any names here.

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But, of course, I had a member of
the clergy, and I'm not going to say

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which religion, but who was proud
of the fact that they could be in

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and out of the chapel in 11 minutes.

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Wow, and that's the entire
service that they were delivering?

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That's the entire service
that they were delivering.

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Wow, that's not something
to be proud of, is it?

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No, it's not.

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We had people come in and you knew
they did exactly the same service,

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they just changed the names.

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Peace.

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Yeah.

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And I heard it so many times
I could have recited it.

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That's, that's what it was like and
then it was just as civil celebrants

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were starting to do funerals and I
watched the growth of That happening

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and I thought there's got to be a
way to better way to do this It's the

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last time would have that been Jackie.

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How old were your boys and and what
sort of period are we talking about?

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Okay.

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Well, I started You I was the Saturday
girl and the Wednesday girl, and my

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youngest son was 18 months old, and
my eldest son was three and a half.

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And I had a very, very involved
husband who was involved with the,

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with our children, and would look
after them, on Saturdays and school

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holidays and things like that.

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And I had an amazing mum and mother in law
who would look after them during the day.

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And then when they went to school,
they would be picked up after

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school and I would look there.

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So without my family, I
just couldn't have done it.

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I mean, there wasn't the daycare
like there is now, and long

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daycare and things like that.

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So, and my family, my boys
grew up with a very healthy

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attitude to death and funerals.

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And I remember when my, one
of my boys said to me one day,

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so are you working tomorrow?

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And I said, yes.

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And he said, okay.

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Well, when you go to work, will you?

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Stop and say hello to
my first grandad for me.

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Now he's, what he called his first
grandad was my husband's father who'd

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passed away and his mother had remarried.

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And I said, Yes, of course I will.

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Is there anything in particular
you want me to tell him?

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And he said, No, but will you take a
Kit Kat for him in case he gets hungry?

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Oh, that is so cute.

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So, from the time they were very
young, and for special occasions

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like Mother's Day and Christmas Day
and things like that, I would go in,

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because we live very close to the
crematorium, I would go in on those.

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days to top up flower vases that we'd
put out because families, we never

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had enough flower vases and my boys
used to love to come with me to do it.

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Oh, how lovely.

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They'd ask, are we going to do it?

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So, and they have that very
healthy attitude now and it's been

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passed on to my grandchildren.

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Oh, that must be a lovely thing to see.

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It really is.

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It really, really is.

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And so I'm assuming when the boys were
growing up and your husband was there

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to also assist in taking care of them.

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This would have been
around about the 60s, 70s?

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No, this is the 80s.

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This is the 80s, okay.

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Yes.

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But still rare for a man to be doing
those sort of roles in, in that time.

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I was very, very fortunate.

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From the time my boys were
born, Michael was involved.

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And he would do things like, he would
take them out for the day, on his own.

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The only thing you used to say, that
was from the time they were toddlers,

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and the only thing you used to say to
me was, please dress them the same,

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because then if I lose one I can say to
people, have you seen a boy like this?

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Oh, that's hilarious, I love that.

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Fortunately, you never lost one.

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Now, you were mentioning previously that
With the change of roles that you, you

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started off doing the administration and
then you moved over to be more involved

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in, from the funeral side to more of
the crematorium and cemetery side.

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So tell me about that transition.

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Well, I started out, as I
say, the Wednesday girl.

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There was just one other person in
admin, the manager, and I would help her.

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And then, I would get more things to
do and then, uh, Computers came along

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and she was more involved in, when
Computers first came along, she was

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more involved with learning how to
use it and how we could invo operate

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it efficiently for our business.

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And so that got me involved
in doing more of her roles.

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Then, unfortunately, she got
sick and had to have some time.

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Out of work.

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By this time we got so
busy we had another.

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Girl that worked reception, and I
was asked to take, to fill in the

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manager's role while she was off sick.

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She came back to work for a
while, and I stepped back.

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During the time that she
was off sick, there had been

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plans for above ground burial.

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crypts to be built, so I got very
involved in the building of that.

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Then she came back and I stepped
back a little bit into my, my role.

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I used to see families to, to
word plaques and memorials.

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We still had people who would walk
in there occasionally and want

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to arrange a funeral, so I would
do a funeral arrangement there.

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And then when she finally
retired, I was actually asked

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to take over her role full time.

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So that's how I advanced through.

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It was over a period of a number of
years, it didn't happen overnight.

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From the time I started as the Saturday
Girl to the time that I retired, the

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first time, I was there over 20 years.

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So that's how I saw a lot of changes
and a lot of coming and going.

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And, yeah.

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And tell me about some of those changes
that you, you saw during that period.

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Like, you've just mentioned the fact
that you saw the introduction of

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computers into business administration.

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Yes, saw the introduction of computers.

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As I say, we built above
ground burial crypts.

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So I got very involved in that because in
the area that I live, we have a community

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that are used to having, with their
background, above ground burial groups.

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So I had to learn all about the
rules, regulations and laws involved

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in what was needed with those.

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And also the thing that the, to
liaise with funeral directors

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to make sure everything had been
done that needed to be done.

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And what are the sort of things
that, that need to be done?

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Jackie, just for people who are
unfamiliar with what has to happen

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when you're organising a funeral and
that communication between the person

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who's arranging the funeral, perhaps
talk us through that role and then

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the role that you find that you're
then communicating with the director.

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Okay, so Just for a, a, a general
funeral, what I would say a gen in,

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in a, a cremation, if someone's passed
away and they're going to be buried

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or cremated, so hopefully they will
have made prearrangements and their

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family knows exactly what they want.

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If they haven't, the first
thing the family needs to do is

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to consult a funeral director.

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Now, the funeral director will meet with
them and will help them and guide them.

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to fill out all the paperwork
that needs to be filled out.

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They'll discuss how they want the
funeral to go, where the ceremony

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is to take place, where the burial,
if it's a burial, where it, where

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the burial is to take place.

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They will discuss with them the sort of
coffin that would like, they would like,

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whether or not they would like flowers.

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And if they do, whether they want, the
funeral director to organize them, or

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the family wants to organize themselves.

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Whether they want announcements
in newspapers, or on social media,

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and a myriad of other, um, um, and
they will ask the family if they

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want to have a religious service,
or a service with a celebrant.

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Now these days, more and more, because
people don't go to church as they used to.

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As much as they used to.

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00:13:50,785 --> 00:13:51,005
Mm.

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They feel that they don't want to use the
church as a convenience just for burials.

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Mm.

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Or weddings because there is more, more
flexibility now in the sort of service

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00:14:09,340 --> 00:14:15,880
that you have if you use a celebrant
both with weddings and funerals and.

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often with, with funerals not being
held in places of worship, they're

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00:14:21,885 --> 00:14:23,655
held in all sorts of different places.

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00:14:24,115 --> 00:14:31,985
They can be held outside, inside, in
halls, in the crematorium, in local

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00:14:32,285 --> 00:14:35,874
neighborhood halls, all sorts of places.

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00:14:36,704 --> 00:14:40,415
And is that one of the big things
that you've seen is that transition

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00:14:40,425 --> 00:14:47,800
from a religious, uh, church based
or faith based, um, ceremony to a

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00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,920
more secular, uh, casual approach?

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00:14:51,980 --> 00:14:52,840
Yes.

219
00:14:53,099 --> 00:14:53,800
Yes.

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00:14:53,890 --> 00:14:56,790
It has, there's been, uh,
I've noticed a big swing.

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00:14:57,660 --> 00:15:08,450
Now, some celebrants will not involve
religion in their service at all.

222
00:15:09,069 --> 00:15:15,619
They say, no, I'm a civil celebrant,
I'm not, I'm not affiliated with

223
00:15:15,619 --> 00:15:17,619
religion, I won't have anything.

224
00:15:18,620 --> 00:15:21,369
But you'll be surprised how many times.

225
00:15:21,830 --> 00:15:25,830
I go and visit with the family, and
I sit down with them and we talk

226
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:27,680
about the ceremony that they want.

227
00:15:28,030 --> 00:15:31,719
And they say, we don't want
any religion, mum or dad wasn't

228
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:33,579
religious, they didn't go to church.

229
00:15:35,340 --> 00:15:41,270
And then when I'm going down my questions
that I always ask, and I have a printed

230
00:15:41,270 --> 00:15:45,210
sheet, which I go down and ask questions,
to make sure I don't miss anything.

231
00:15:45,860 --> 00:15:50,080
And I will say to them, Now, I
probably know the answer to this,

232
00:15:50,110 --> 00:15:51,600
but I'll ask the question anyway.

233
00:15:51,660 --> 00:15:53,150
Would you like the Lord's Prayer?

234
00:15:53,810 --> 00:15:56,200
Oh yes, you can't have a funeral
without the Lord's Prayer.

235
00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,489
So, I will include the Lord's Prayer.

236
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,120
I will say to them, would
you like the 23rd Psalm?

237
00:16:06,429 --> 00:16:07,100
What's that?

238
00:16:08,630 --> 00:16:11,160
So, I recite the opening lines.

239
00:16:11,829 --> 00:16:14,540
Oh yes, yes, mum loved that.

240
00:16:15,420 --> 00:16:18,970
And what are, what are those opening
lines, Jackie, if you could share with us?

241
00:16:19,285 --> 00:16:20,575
The Lord is my shepherd.

242
00:16:20,665 --> 00:16:21,955
I shall not want.

243
00:16:23,345 --> 00:16:25,870
I think they're pretty distinct
opening lines, aren't they?

244
00:16:25,870 --> 00:16:26,550
They are.

245
00:16:26,980 --> 00:16:33,425
They're so I do, if a family would like
that included, I am the type of celebrant

246
00:16:33,430 --> 00:16:37,985
that will include that the same way as
if And do you meet with the families?

247
00:16:38,765 --> 00:16:39,155
Okay.

248
00:16:39,605 --> 00:16:43,475
The, the family's been to the funeral
director and they've, they've told

249
00:16:43,475 --> 00:16:49,565
them that they, they want a, a
celebrant to do the funeral sometimes.

250
00:16:49,860 --> 00:16:55,560
The funeral director will ring me and
say, we have a family that would like to

251
00:16:55,560 --> 00:17:01,070
have a celebrant based, uh, ceremony on
such and such a day, are you available?

252
00:17:01,670 --> 00:17:05,579
I look to my diary and I'll say yes,
I'll take down the details, and I will

253
00:17:05,589 --> 00:17:10,829
contact that family and arrange to
meet with them as soon as suits them.

254
00:17:11,980 --> 00:17:15,240
Sometimes a family get in touch
with me direct and say, Oh, you did

255
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:19,160
a funeral that we went to, and we
wondered if you'd be available to do a

256
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,059
mum's funeral on such and such a date.

257
00:17:21,649 --> 00:17:22,239
Same thing.

258
00:17:22,260 --> 00:17:23,130
Check the diary.

259
00:17:23,170 --> 00:17:24,249
Yes, I'm available.

260
00:17:24,740 --> 00:17:25,494
I take down the date.

261
00:17:25,875 --> 00:17:30,095
The details, and I make an
appointment to go and see the family.

262
00:17:30,965 --> 00:17:35,195
Sometimes it can be the
next day, sometimes it can

263
00:17:35,195 --> 00:17:36,615
be a couple of days later.

264
00:17:37,205 --> 00:17:43,515
Sometimes, and I have had this,
for, with circumstances or

265
00:17:43,515 --> 00:17:47,319
family wishes or whatever, it
can be a week or two weeks later.

266
00:17:48,790 --> 00:17:50,850
But I always meet with the family.

267
00:17:51,380 --> 00:17:55,610
Unless they live a distance away that
is not practical to travel, because

268
00:17:55,610 --> 00:17:59,649
that's where they live and they're just
going to come down for the service, then

269
00:17:59,649 --> 00:18:02,530
I will do a Zoom or FaceTime meeting.

270
00:18:03,289 --> 00:18:07,179
But I must admit, I much prefer to
do a face to face meeting if I can.

271
00:18:07,310 --> 00:18:11,260
And I don't mind travelling a couple of
hours to get to that face to face meeting.

272
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,180
Wow, that's, that's dedication
for a few hours for a meeting.

273
00:18:17,014 --> 00:18:19,475
And, and tell me, you've
got your checklist that you

274
00:18:19,475 --> 00:18:20,705
go through with the family.

275
00:18:20,925 --> 00:18:23,085
What sort of things are
on that checklist, Jackie?

276
00:18:23,835 --> 00:18:28,264
Okay, well my first checklist that I have
is what I call my inclusions checklist.

277
00:18:29,405 --> 00:18:34,315
So, with that checklist I ask them
what sort of things they would

278
00:18:34,315 --> 00:18:36,165
like to include in the ceremony.

279
00:18:36,704 --> 00:18:38,145
Would they like the Lord's Prayer?

280
00:18:38,145 --> 00:18:40,105
Would they like the 23rd Psalm?

281
00:18:40,635 --> 00:18:42,725
Who is going to be doing the eulogy?

282
00:18:44,055 --> 00:18:47,325
Is it going to be a family
member or friend, or do they

283
00:18:47,325 --> 00:18:48,685
want me to do the whole thing?

284
00:18:49,675 --> 00:18:50,735
So that's another check.

285
00:18:51,695 --> 00:18:56,855
Are they having a slideshow,
they're very popular now, of photos

286
00:18:57,265 --> 00:18:58,935
of the deceased and memories?

287
00:18:58,975 --> 00:19:00,605
Yes, so tick off yes.

288
00:19:00,905 --> 00:19:02,784
And I ask who's going to be preparing it.

289
00:19:03,485 --> 00:19:08,155
Because if it's a family member, I always
like to acknowledge in my ceremony and

290
00:19:08,185 --> 00:19:09,759
thank the family member that's involved.

291
00:19:10,379 --> 00:19:13,710
Has put that together because it
probably wasn't easy for them.

292
00:19:13,909 --> 00:19:14,730
So that's a tick.

293
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:21,080
Yeah, are they going to have Reflection
time where we just have some a couple of

294
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:25,799
quiet moments play a piece of music Well,
everyone can reflect on their memories

295
00:19:25,799 --> 00:19:30,460
of the deceased and at that time too I
always say and if you're a person who

296
00:19:30,460 --> 00:19:35,709
prays You might like to offer a silent
prayer for the deceased name at this

297
00:19:35,730 --> 00:19:42,435
time because you never know tick that
off Are they going to have what What we

298
00:19:42,435 --> 00:19:44,745
call a, what I call a flower placement.

299
00:19:45,685 --> 00:19:49,905
Lots of families these days, as
their personal tribute, like to,

300
00:19:49,915 --> 00:19:53,075
the immediate family, like to place
a single flower on the casket.

301
00:19:54,175 --> 00:19:56,694
So if they're having a flower
placement, I include that.

302
00:19:57,284 --> 00:20:00,135
Do they, if it's a cremation, do
they want the curtains to close?

303
00:20:00,564 --> 00:20:02,034
Or do they want them left open?

304
00:20:02,585 --> 00:20:04,105
Are they having a wake somewhere?

305
00:20:05,105 --> 00:20:11,840
If they are, Do they want me to announce
it and is everyone invited to attend?

306
00:20:13,130 --> 00:20:15,230
Is there anyone special
that would like me to thank?

307
00:20:15,270 --> 00:20:18,409
Like a hospital, a nursing home,
a special friend that's looked

308
00:20:18,409 --> 00:20:20,510
after, mum or dad or whatever.

309
00:20:20,819 --> 00:20:23,480
And all those are ticked off my checklist.

310
00:20:24,710 --> 00:20:28,530
Then I have a second checklist,
which I call my ceremony checklist.

311
00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:33,280
And I just sit with the
family and we just chat.

312
00:20:33,845 --> 00:20:38,415
Like I'm chatting with you now and
I'm making notes on this checklist as

313
00:20:38,415 --> 00:20:42,225
I'm talking to them And I do explain
to them at the beginning while we are

314
00:20:42,225 --> 00:20:48,155
talking if I'm not looking at you and I'm
writing I'm still listening and taking

315
00:20:48,155 --> 00:20:53,370
down and I go through um, Questions
and gain information and make notes.

316
00:20:53,730 --> 00:20:56,910
Is there anything special that you
want to do within the ceremony?

317
00:20:57,530 --> 00:21:02,330
Is there anything special you would like
to include as a reading or a poem or any

318
00:21:02,330 --> 00:21:04,360
special piece of music that you've chosen?

319
00:21:04,660 --> 00:21:06,019
And if so, why?

320
00:21:06,635 --> 00:21:08,015
And so on and so forth.

321
00:21:08,775 --> 00:21:15,275
And they may say to me, well, our
grandchildren, you know, they're

322
00:21:15,275 --> 00:21:19,394
not old enough to speak, but they
really would like to do something.

323
00:21:19,905 --> 00:21:28,344
So I suggest that they make a drawing
or write a letter to Grandma or Grandpa.

324
00:21:28,885 --> 00:21:34,185
And They can hand it to me, and we
can go and put it on the coffin.

325
00:21:34,805 --> 00:21:37,965
Sometimes the child wants to hold
my hand and go and do it with me.

326
00:21:38,385 --> 00:21:41,225
Sometimes they want to do
it while I hold their hand.

327
00:21:41,825 --> 00:21:44,024
So it's whatever the family wants.

328
00:21:44,335 --> 00:21:51,725
It's all about designing the ceremony to
suit both the deceased and the family.

329
00:21:53,304 --> 00:21:59,404
Because families come in all shapes,
sizes, and makeup these days.

330
00:21:59,574 --> 00:22:03,004
It's not the nuclear family of
two parents and kids anymore.

331
00:22:05,194 --> 00:22:09,224
And what are the, some of the things
that you find challenging at that

332
00:22:09,225 --> 00:22:15,014
time for families to discuss or
consider in that planning process?

333
00:22:16,544 --> 00:22:23,814
It can be off when the, the deceased
hasn't sort of made any arrangements

334
00:22:23,814 --> 00:22:30,944
in advance and hasn't really written
down their wants and needs in advance.

335
00:22:31,924 --> 00:22:37,214
Sometimes it's difficult for a family to
even work out what they wanted because

336
00:22:38,124 --> 00:22:47,874
I could be sat at a table with, let's
say, four children and one will say, Oh,

337
00:22:47,874 --> 00:22:51,344
well, Mum wanted this because she told me.

338
00:22:52,015 --> 00:22:54,045
And another one said, well,
no, that's not right, because

339
00:22:54,045 --> 00:22:55,685
she told me she wanted this.

340
00:22:55,685 --> 00:23:00,565
And the third one says, well, you're
both wrong, because she told me this.

341
00:23:00,565 --> 00:23:04,125
And the fourth one says, well, she
didn't tell me anything, so I don't know.

342
00:23:04,835 --> 00:23:11,264
But then we, we chat and we find
out, she told one 20 years ago, she

343
00:23:11,265 --> 00:23:15,435
told another one 10 years ago, and
she told the third one last week.

344
00:23:17,050 --> 00:23:22,520
So, actually coming to grips and, and
working out what the deceased actually

345
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,410
wanted can be difficult for them.

346
00:23:24,410 --> 00:23:34,820
Um, it can also be difficult sometimes
if mum or dad has had a, Difficult

347
00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:44,330
life, um, and some of the family think
that mum wouldn't like that included.

348
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,959
For perhaps, mum had, was, mum
or dad was perhaps married very

349
00:23:48,959 --> 00:23:53,059
young, and it wasn't a happy
marriage, it didn't last very long.

350
00:23:53,489 --> 00:24:00,699
There could have been domestic violence
involved or, or anything else like that.

351
00:24:00,869 --> 00:24:01,809
The marriage ended.

352
00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:10,270
And then they went on and married
someone else years later who they

353
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:11,920
had a long and happy marriage with.

354
00:24:12,730 --> 00:24:18,270
and had more children, so, and,
so we might get children from this

355
00:24:18,330 --> 00:24:22,700
blended family because she had
some in the first unhappy marriage,

356
00:24:22,700 --> 00:24:26,070
some in the second who've all come
together to make these arrangements.

357
00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:31,719
And the, the, some of them will say,
Oh, we don't need to include that

358
00:24:31,719 --> 00:24:36,500
first marriage because, nah, it was
short, it wasn't happy, no need to

359
00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:37,650
do it, we don't need to include it.

360
00:24:38,190 --> 00:24:42,480
And others saying, Yes, but
it was a part of her life.

361
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,449
So, You can't just brush
it under the carpet.

362
00:24:46,379 --> 00:24:52,040
So then, I sit and chat with them and
discuss ways that we can acknowledge

363
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:53,920
that first marriage took place.

364
00:24:54,430 --> 00:24:56,489
Sadly, it didn't last.

365
00:24:56,529 --> 00:24:59,080
We don't have to go into why,
or we don't have to say sadly.

366
00:24:59,460 --> 00:25:04,460
We can just say, unfortunately, or we can
just, just say the marriage didn't last.

367
00:25:04,970 --> 00:25:11,330
And she went on, you know, a few years
later she met or he met someone else and

368
00:25:11,340 --> 00:25:15,510
we go on to say they had, they developed
a loving and lasting relationship

369
00:25:15,899 --> 00:25:18,330
that went on for however many years.

370
00:25:18,810 --> 00:25:23,999
So it's all about finding what
they want and if they can't agree

371
00:25:24,009 --> 00:25:28,900
wholeheartedly on something,
thinking and suggesting ways that.

372
00:25:29,435 --> 00:25:34,205
They can perhaps be a happy
medium, so that can be quite

373
00:25:34,235 --> 00:25:35,705
challenging for families.

374
00:25:36,065 --> 00:25:40,234
Yeah, it sounds to me that in this what
can be sometimes quite challenging,

375
00:25:40,234 --> 00:25:45,545
Jackie, that you're almost like a gallery
curator and you're curating a collection

376
00:25:45,545 --> 00:25:47,704
of stories and the best way to tell them.

377
00:25:48,144 --> 00:25:50,015
Would that be a fair way of thinking?

378
00:25:50,015 --> 00:25:53,555
That would be, I've never heard it
put like that before, but yes, that

379
00:25:53,565 --> 00:25:55,395
would be a very good way of putting it.

380
00:25:56,940 --> 00:25:59,330
Well, that's, that's
quite the talent you have.

381
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:00,160
Thank you.

382
00:26:00,980 --> 00:26:05,750
And tell me where you're the
president of the Funeral Celebrants

383
00:26:05,750 --> 00:26:07,220
Association of Australia.

384
00:26:07,810 --> 00:26:12,649
So tell me a little bit, well, actually
we haven't even covered off on, on, on how

385
00:26:12,649 --> 00:26:14,949
you got started as a funeral celebrant.

386
00:26:15,379 --> 00:26:17,580
So perhaps we should
talk about that first.

387
00:26:17,730 --> 00:26:18,110
Right.

388
00:26:18,110 --> 00:26:23,559
Well, as I say, I saw those funerals that
were good, bad, and absolutely awful.

389
00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:30,645
And in my family, Not just my immediate
family, but also the extended family.

390
00:26:31,295 --> 00:26:35,415
I was the person that was always
asked to do the eulogy at funerals.

391
00:26:35,684 --> 00:26:40,464
So whether it be a church, a religious
funeral, or one in a cemetery or a

392
00:26:40,465 --> 00:26:46,475
crematorium done by someone else, the
family always asked me to do the eulogy

393
00:26:47,025 --> 00:26:52,034
and then my brother in law got sick.

394
00:26:52,665 --> 00:26:55,044
I think it was my brother in law
because it's done so many now.

395
00:26:55,375 --> 00:26:58,235
A family member got sick and
said, Would I do their funeral?

396
00:26:59,949 --> 00:27:02,399
So I said, of course, I
was honoured to be asked.

397
00:27:02,419 --> 00:27:05,909
It was a step up from doing a eulogy.

398
00:27:06,339 --> 00:27:10,630
I'd seen funerals, I knew what,
what I liked and what I didn't like.

399
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,819
So I sat down and I
wrote that first funeral.

400
00:27:15,929 --> 00:27:19,050
I delivered it and it turned
out to be quite a big funeral

401
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:21,730
and I never looked back.

402
00:27:22,260 --> 00:27:25,639
More and more family members, family
members, friends, you know, people.

403
00:27:26,250 --> 00:27:28,200
So that's how I got into doing funerals.

404
00:27:28,550 --> 00:27:29,460
And also.

405
00:27:30,085 --> 00:27:35,215
I'm an authorized marriage celebrant,
so I, I do weddings among other things.

406
00:27:35,685 --> 00:27:41,185
And I've even had people say to me
when I've done a wedding that was

407
00:27:41,190 --> 00:27:45,325
an absolutely beautiful service,
beautiful ceremony, beautiful wedding.

408
00:27:45,775 --> 00:27:47,455
I don't suppose you do funerals, do you?

409
00:27:47,455 --> 00:27:48,475
And I say, yes.

410
00:27:48,735 --> 00:27:49,165
Yes, I do.

411
00:27:50,115 --> 00:27:52,615
And they'd say, right, I
want you when my time comes.

412
00:27:54,275 --> 00:27:56,575
And tell me, is that a
common thing that happens?

413
00:27:56,965 --> 00:27:59,235
That people say, I like what you've done.

414
00:27:59,945 --> 00:28:02,615
Can you, can you then
come and do this for me?

415
00:28:03,565 --> 00:28:03,995
Yes.

416
00:28:04,855 --> 00:28:05,015
Yep.

417
00:28:06,029 --> 00:28:11,290
And, and that, that, that path that
you've taken of being a, involved in

418
00:28:11,290 --> 00:28:15,759
the funeral industry and then moving
on to become a celebrant, is that

419
00:28:15,830 --> 00:28:21,339
a traditional way of doing it or is
it normally people who are marriage

420
00:28:21,350 --> 00:28:23,379
celebrants becoming funeral celebrants?

421
00:28:23,669 --> 00:28:26,070
What, how does it normally sort of happen?

422
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:27,660
Happens both ways.

423
00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:28,750
Ah, okay.

424
00:28:28,950 --> 00:28:30,110
Happens both ways.

425
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,590
Sometimes people start out working
in the funeral industry and go

426
00:28:34,590 --> 00:28:36,289
on to become a funeral celebrant.

427
00:28:36,780 --> 00:28:42,379
Sometimes it's marriage celebrants that
are asked to do a funeral for a member of

428
00:28:42,379 --> 00:28:44,059
a family that they've done a wedding for.

429
00:28:44,529 --> 00:28:49,000
Sometimes people have no prior experience.

430
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,940
They just decide that they
want to be a funeral celebrant

431
00:28:53,500 --> 00:28:55,470
and so they, they go for it.

432
00:28:55,910 --> 00:29:01,485
The funerals The celebrant industry
in Australia is not regulated like

433
00:29:01,485 --> 00:29:04,555
the marriage celebrant industry is.

434
00:29:04,975 --> 00:29:08,094
To be a marriage celebrant in Australia
you have to do your training, you have

435
00:29:08,094 --> 00:29:12,445
to apply to the Attorney General's
Department to be authorised, you have

436
00:29:12,445 --> 00:29:17,534
to do ongoing professional development
every year, so it's quite involved.

437
00:29:17,535 --> 00:29:20,824
Funeral celebrancy is not like that.

438
00:29:21,824 --> 00:29:25,115
Anyone at all can be a funeral celebrant.

439
00:29:26,205 --> 00:29:34,285
And that is why sometimes they say, a
funeral, a family will say, Oh, we have

440
00:29:34,285 --> 00:29:36,175
a friend that's going to do the funeral.

441
00:29:36,485 --> 00:29:38,135
So the funeral director says, fine.

442
00:29:38,565 --> 00:29:39,795
And they let them get on with it.

443
00:29:39,865 --> 00:29:45,034
And that person might only have been to
three or four funerals in their life.

444
00:29:45,625 --> 00:29:48,405
So they can only go with what they know.

445
00:29:50,045 --> 00:29:56,085
And it might not always be
what a more experienced person.

446
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:58,890
Funeral celebrant would do.

447
00:29:59,610 --> 00:30:04,020
Funeral celebrant association
Australia is the only celebrant

448
00:30:04,070 --> 00:30:08,530
association in Australia that
is only for funeral celebrants.

449
00:30:08,919 --> 00:30:13,869
There are other celebrant Australia,
uh, celebrant associations in

450
00:30:13,870 --> 00:30:16,284
Australia that have funeral celebrants.

451
00:30:16,685 --> 00:30:21,725
celebrants and funeral celebrants as
part of their, under their umbrella,

452
00:30:21,795 --> 00:30:23,525
you know, as part of their association.

453
00:30:23,525 --> 00:30:27,534
But we are the only one that is
purely for funeral celebrants.

454
00:30:28,814 --> 00:30:34,664
So we, we run professional
development workshops every year.

455
00:30:34,925 --> 00:30:39,445
We have days of learning that we run
each year in various states in Australia.

456
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:44,030
We have a website where anyone can
go to our website and have a look and

457
00:30:44,030 --> 00:30:49,010
that's how people can get in touch
with a celebrant in their area and

458
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:50,999
there's ideas on there for people.

459
00:30:51,059 --> 00:30:55,855
There's, there's readings,
there's all sorts of information.

460
00:30:55,865 --> 00:31:01,045
There's a plethora of information
on there that anyone who is wanting

461
00:31:01,105 --> 00:31:03,035
to get more information can go to.

462
00:31:04,744 --> 00:31:08,435
There's a few things that just struck
me that you've just said then, Jackie,

463
00:31:08,435 --> 00:31:14,554
and, and, you know, it does always
surprise me when I found out that

464
00:31:14,555 --> 00:31:17,320
funeral celebrants aren't regulated.

465
00:31:17,770 --> 00:31:24,440
And for me, I suppose the reason why
that struck me as surprising is that,

466
00:31:25,100 --> 00:31:30,080
you know, with what you've mentioned, the
challenges that people have to navigate

467
00:31:30,410 --> 00:31:35,570
when you're talking to families who may
be blended families and all of those

468
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:40,480
issues or perhaps complications that
could arise during that period, especially

469
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:46,220
when you then mix, uh, grief and other
emotions at a very heightened time.

470
00:31:46,845 --> 00:31:51,535
That was a real surprise when I found
out that, that it wasn't regulated.

471
00:31:52,075 --> 00:31:57,015
And the other thing that you were
mentioning where people decide

472
00:31:57,085 --> 00:31:58,615
to become a funeral celebrant.

473
00:31:59,014 --> 00:32:03,895
I know it was something that I was
considering to become a funeral celebrant

474
00:32:03,915 --> 00:32:08,475
when I was looking at a, a role that
I could do with my chronic pain.

475
00:32:09,005 --> 00:32:13,674
And for me, the emotion I realized
was probably too triggering for me

476
00:32:13,965 --> 00:32:15,695
to be that close to the emotion.

477
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:21,840
But the idea was placed in my head
because my auntie was a funeral celebrant

478
00:32:22,250 --> 00:32:27,840
and she said it was the most rewarding
role that she's ever had in her life.

479
00:32:28,310 --> 00:32:33,650
And she even showed me these
beautiful scrapbooks that she's

480
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:39,030
been, or she's, she's created
from all of the thank you cards.

481
00:32:39,195 --> 00:32:44,905
from the people and the families that
she's done the funeral services for.

482
00:32:45,205 --> 00:32:47,565
And it was really, really beautiful.

483
00:32:47,955 --> 00:32:53,135
So I can see why people, you know,
do just specialise in funerals.

484
00:32:53,545 --> 00:32:53,815
Mm.

485
00:32:54,175 --> 00:32:54,385
Mm.

486
00:32:55,725 --> 00:32:59,385
To be honest with you, I
personally would like to see that.

487
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,970
funeral celebrants regulated.

488
00:33:02,970 --> 00:33:07,100
I mean, we all know funeral
directors that the funeral directors,

489
00:33:07,110 --> 00:33:08,890
funeral industry is regulated.

490
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,200
So I'm not saying that's not because
it is, it's highly regulated.

491
00:33:12,530 --> 00:33:16,799
What I'm talking about not being
regulated are funeral celebrants.

492
00:33:18,290 --> 00:33:24,670
So, you know, anyone can,
can take a funeral ceremony.

493
00:33:26,110 --> 00:33:33,295
I would like to see The industry,
personally, I'm can't, I'm not speaking

494
00:33:33,295 --> 00:33:38,145
for FCAA members or any other celebrants
I know, I'm just speaking for myself.

495
00:33:39,345 --> 00:33:45,660
I personally would like to see it
regulated because you would get,

496
00:33:45,730 --> 00:33:50,760
there would be far more training
involved in the celebrants.

497
00:33:51,340 --> 00:33:56,090
They would have to make sure their skills
and their knowledge are kept up to date.

498
00:33:56,390 --> 00:34:00,149
They would have to make sure
that the right thing is done.

499
00:34:00,149 --> 00:34:04,560
They would have to really
put some effort into it.

500
00:34:05,770 --> 00:34:10,670
I mean, I, all my ceremonies are
written for each individual family.

501
00:34:11,340 --> 00:34:12,880
Yes, I have a couple of little things.

502
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:19,150
that work, that I might use more
often than not, but every single

503
00:34:19,150 --> 00:34:21,160
ceremony is written individually.

504
00:34:21,670 --> 00:34:26,770
I don't have a shelf where there's half
a dozen different ceremonies, and I pick

505
00:34:26,770 --> 00:34:30,920
the one that I think is most improper,
most appropriate, and change the names.

506
00:34:31,070 --> 00:34:31,830
I don't do that.

507
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:33,400
They are all written individually.

508
00:34:33,949 --> 00:34:36,779
So that's something else
that's involved as well as,

509
00:34:37,670 --> 00:34:39,070
You know, all the other things.

510
00:34:39,740 --> 00:34:46,110
And I think if people had to do funeral
celebrant training, they were more trained

511
00:34:46,130 --> 00:34:55,705
in poetry and prose, and public speaking,
and, writing because not everybody that

512
00:34:55,725 --> 00:34:57,695
thinks they are is a good public speaker.

513
00:34:58,185 --> 00:35:03,295
And in addition to those qualities
that you just mentioned, is there

514
00:35:03,295 --> 00:35:07,265
anything else that you think
makes a good funeral celebrant?

515
00:35:08,394 --> 00:35:09,004
Empathy.

516
00:35:10,854 --> 00:35:11,374
Empathy.

517
00:35:11,375 --> 00:35:18,855
You have to have empathy with your family,
but you can't let that overtake your life.

518
00:35:19,315 --> 00:35:21,875
You have to have a way of separating.

519
00:35:23,095 --> 00:35:28,125
When you're working and when you're not,
you have to have a good work life balance.

520
00:35:28,645 --> 00:35:30,615
And I think that's very, very important.

521
00:35:31,145 --> 00:35:35,215
I know a lot of us have our own little
thing that we do when we get home from

522
00:35:35,215 --> 00:35:37,285
taking a ceremony or meeting a family.

523
00:35:37,615 --> 00:35:42,234
For me, it's, and it sounds an odd thing
to say, but I go and first thing I do

524
00:35:42,245 --> 00:35:48,280
when I come in, is put my bag down, switch
the kettle on, Go and change my clothes.

525
00:35:48,330 --> 00:35:53,910
Take off my, my ceremony clothes, my
working clothes and put on casual clothes.

526
00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:55,870
Make myself a cup of tea.

527
00:35:56,129 --> 00:35:57,830
Sit down with my cup of tea.

528
00:35:58,235 --> 00:36:01,625
And just decompress a little
bit, and then I'm back to work.

529
00:36:02,075 --> 00:36:03,785
But you need to take something.

530
00:36:04,375 --> 00:36:07,565
And I'm never frightened to take
a day off if I've got a spare

531
00:36:07,565 --> 00:36:09,264
day, even if it's during the week.

532
00:36:09,885 --> 00:36:13,704
Because, also being a marriage
celebrant, I often work weekends too, so.

533
00:36:13,795 --> 00:36:14,405
Mmm.

534
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,400
I really like the idea that you
come home and you get changed.

535
00:36:20,660 --> 00:36:20,680
Yeah.

536
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:28,190
I think that's an amazing way of
physically shedding that sort of aspect,

537
00:36:28,420 --> 00:36:33,420
uh, and, and that responsibility that
you have, and then sort of reclaiming,

538
00:36:33,420 --> 00:36:35,410
I suppose, that, that casual bit.

539
00:36:35,770 --> 00:36:37,570
more comfortable bit for yourself.

540
00:36:37,890 --> 00:36:39,550
I can really relate to that.

541
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,280
For me, when I was working in a
corporate environment, that was the

542
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,760
first thing that I used to do was
get out of the, the stockings and the

543
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:53,430
high heels and the skirt and the, the
power dressing, you know, jackets and,

544
00:36:53,540 --> 00:36:59,479
and change because just that simple
process really does change how you feel.

545
00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:00,865
It does.

546
00:37:00,865 --> 00:37:02,009
It does.

547
00:37:02,370 --> 00:37:03,060
So that's great.

548
00:37:03,100 --> 00:37:06,370
That's really fantastic
advice for, for someone.

549
00:37:06,810 --> 00:37:11,120
And, and one of the other things
that you find that other celebrants

550
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:15,690
do to set those boundaries and
make sure that they are giving

551
00:37:15,690 --> 00:37:17,399
themselves a little bit of self care.

552
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,530
I know, actually, funnily enough,
on one of our Days of Learning

553
00:37:22,530 --> 00:37:26,130
last year, that was one of the
topics that we covered, self care.

554
00:37:26,449 --> 00:37:33,120
I do know of some people who have a
playlist that they put on in the car.

555
00:37:33,469 --> 00:37:36,769
They have one playlist for when
they're going to do a ceremony, to

556
00:37:36,770 --> 00:37:42,580
sort of put them in the right frame of
mind, and then they have a different

557
00:37:42,580 --> 00:37:48,189
playlist that they play in the car on
the way home to get them out of it.

558
00:37:48,490 --> 00:37:50,930
the ceremonial frame of mind into another.

559
00:37:51,330 --> 00:37:55,090
Some, I know, meditate when they get home.

560
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,940
Uh, some go for a walk.

561
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,549
Some actually stop at a coffee shop
on the way home and have coffee.

562
00:38:03,180 --> 00:38:05,140
Those are just some of the simple things.

563
00:38:06,810 --> 00:38:11,580
And tell me about Funeral
Celebrants Association of Australia.

564
00:38:11,890 --> 00:38:13,290
How long has it been running?

565
00:38:13,290 --> 00:38:17,540
And you've mentioned the fact that
it's the only association in Australia

566
00:38:17,540 --> 00:38:22,299
that focuses on funeral celebrants
alone and, and does not focus on

567
00:38:22,349 --> 00:38:26,940
civil celebrants, uh, in relation
to weddings or other ceremonies.

568
00:38:27,210 --> 00:38:30,000
So tell me a little bit about
that history and your involvement

569
00:38:30,250 --> 00:38:31,380
and how that came about.

570
00:38:32,290 --> 00:38:39,180
Okay, it started, the idea sort of came
forward in about two thousand and seven

571
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:45,009
when there were some celebrants that
did funerals that were involved with a

572
00:38:45,010 --> 00:38:49,339
marriage celebrant organisation and wanted
to sort of get them involved a little bit

573
00:38:49,430 --> 00:38:51,370
with funerals and the association didn't.

574
00:38:51,790 --> 00:38:55,570
So, a few celebrants got
together and decided to form an

575
00:38:55,570 --> 00:38:57,470
association purely for funerals.

576
00:38:58,300 --> 00:39:05,120
That actually place, the
association began in 2008.

577
00:39:05,530 --> 00:39:09,589
It's incorporated in New South Wales.

578
00:39:10,130 --> 00:39:18,200
As a not for profit, so we work under
NSW guidelines in that our constitution

579
00:39:18,660 --> 00:39:23,659
is, and we have a constitution
with things, you know, has to be

580
00:39:23,659 --> 00:39:26,670
registered with Fair Trading in NSW.

581
00:39:26,720 --> 00:39:30,934
And actually, we have just,
uh, in March, uh, registered.

582
00:39:32,425 --> 00:39:34,035
made changes to our constitution.

583
00:39:34,035 --> 00:39:37,755
It was registered with Fairtrade
in New South Wales in March.

584
00:39:38,345 --> 00:39:43,625
And it's grown from just a couple of
people that used to get together in New

585
00:39:43,625 --> 00:39:46,485
South Wales until now it's Australia wide.

586
00:39:47,015 --> 00:39:48,984
In the early days, they
used to have meetings.

587
00:39:48,984 --> 00:39:51,725
They would get together
physically for meetings.

588
00:39:52,210 --> 00:39:55,690
But of course, and then when people
in other states join, they used to

589
00:39:55,690 --> 00:39:57,510
have their meetings in other states.

590
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:02,740
It's always been, uh, one of our aims
has always been, it's a learning place,

591
00:40:03,050 --> 00:40:05,420
but it's also a networking working place.

592
00:40:05,670 --> 00:40:07,349
It's a sharing place.

593
00:40:07,710 --> 00:40:13,790
As technology has increased, we now
have, uh, two Facebook groups, an

594
00:40:13,830 --> 00:40:18,349
open Facebook group for everyone and
a closed Facebook group for everyone.

595
00:40:18,620 --> 00:40:23,150
Where our members can ask questions
and of each other and help each other.

596
00:40:24,030 --> 00:40:27,250
Helping, sharing, that's one
of the reasons we're all about.

597
00:40:27,670 --> 00:40:30,560
We, our committee meets once a month.

598
00:40:30,790 --> 00:40:32,529
We now meet via Zoom.

599
00:40:32,959 --> 00:40:35,620
We, since COVID with the
wonders of technology.

600
00:40:36,210 --> 00:40:39,230
And yeah, we, we're always
there for each other.

601
00:40:39,240 --> 00:40:45,560
We reckon if you can't do a, take a
funeral in your area, we're Um, you

602
00:40:45,710 --> 00:40:50,490
may recommend someone that you know
that would suit this family that can.

603
00:40:50,990 --> 00:40:57,820
So yes, and it's, I guess we're
all about bringing knowledge to the

604
00:40:57,830 --> 00:41:00,499
public of what they can and can't do.

605
00:41:01,190 --> 00:41:12,990
And also, for a long time, the funeral
celebrants were contacted by funeral

606
00:41:12,990 --> 00:41:15,440
directors on behalf of the family.

607
00:41:16,030 --> 00:41:21,560
And funeral directors tended to
contact the same ones all the time

608
00:41:21,980 --> 00:41:25,030
because they know that one works and
they've got their number on file.

609
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:33,359
So we, we are educating people as well
that you don't have to have the celebrant

610
00:41:33,380 --> 00:41:36,469
that the funeral director says, Oh,
we'll get in touch with this for you.

611
00:41:36,830 --> 00:41:38,410
You can choose your own.

612
00:41:39,100 --> 00:41:41,150
It's your personal choice.

613
00:41:42,290 --> 00:41:51,270
And person that you choose will work
with you to make the ceremony fit

614
00:41:51,740 --> 00:41:55,870
the family's wants and needs and
the personality of the person, the

615
00:41:56,180 --> 00:41:57,840
deceased that the person is for.

616
00:41:58,450 --> 00:42:05,100
So we're about bringing knowledge To
the public as well as to Celebrants.

617
00:42:05,850 --> 00:42:10,260
And Jackie, you mentioned previously
that on your website people

618
00:42:10,260 --> 00:42:12,720
can search for a celebrant Yes.

619
00:42:12,810 --> 00:42:18,510
Uh, in their local area and find someone
nearby when they, uh, they are making

620
00:42:18,510 --> 00:42:20,190
those inquiries with the celebrant.

621
00:42:20,430 --> 00:42:23,760
What do you think are the, the
key questions that a family should

622
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,170
be asking to find a celebrant
that might suit what they need?

623
00:42:29,690 --> 00:42:30,140
Okay.

624
00:42:30,230 --> 00:42:30,905
I would.

625
00:42:33,475 --> 00:42:37,805
If I was choosing my celebrant,
first of all, I would ask them,

626
00:42:38,515 --> 00:42:41,965
do you come and meet me somewhere,
or do I have to come and meet you?

627
00:42:42,025 --> 00:42:43,505
What do I need to bring?

628
00:42:43,555 --> 00:42:49,564
Can I, if I've got any pre
requests, I would say, would

629
00:42:49,564 --> 00:42:51,225
you be comfortable doing this?

630
00:42:51,474 --> 00:42:58,055
For example, I did a ceremony for
a young gentleman who had passed

631
00:42:58,055 --> 00:43:05,000
away, who was well known for his,
let's say, colourful language.

632
00:43:06,140 --> 00:43:06,450
Yeah.

633
00:43:07,490 --> 00:43:12,310
And he had a certain phrase
that he always said when he

634
00:43:12,310 --> 00:43:13,520
was saying goodbye to someone.

635
00:43:14,990 --> 00:43:22,459
And it had one of the words in
it that I would not use within my

636
00:43:22,459 --> 00:43:27,130
language, but he used it all the time.

637
00:43:29,500 --> 00:43:33,570
And the family said, at the end
of the ceremony, when you close

638
00:43:33,570 --> 00:43:35,750
it, would you say this phrase?

639
00:43:39,140 --> 00:43:40,740
It was what the family wanted.

640
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,770
Yeah, it's not something I would
normally, but it was important to them.

641
00:43:45,830 --> 00:43:51,119
So what I did was, I did say that
phrase with a colorful word, but I

642
00:43:51,130 --> 00:43:57,000
said, this is not something that I
would say, but in the words of, use

643
00:43:57,030 --> 00:43:58,769
the deceased name, and then used it.

644
00:43:59,990 --> 00:44:01,079
So you need to find it.

645
00:44:01,090 --> 00:44:06,800
If you've, if you've, you're a family that
has a person like that in their family,

646
00:44:07,420 --> 00:44:10,750
I would talk to your celebrant and say,
would you be comfortable doing this?

647
00:44:10,750 --> 00:44:14,190
Because if they say, oh no,
they're not the celebrant for you.

648
00:44:14,940 --> 00:44:15,400
Yeah, that's true.

649
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:19,630
I would ask, if you're a family that
wants some religious content like the

650
00:44:19,630 --> 00:44:24,070
Lord's Prayer, the Twenty Third Psalm,
or a Bible reading, ask your celibate

651
00:44:25,110 --> 00:44:26,959
would they be comfortable doing that?

652
00:44:27,779 --> 00:44:30,150
Because that way you'll
find out yes or no.

653
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:32,879
Because you don't want
someone that's not going to be

654
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,339
comfortable doing what you want.

655
00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:36,900
So they're the sorts of
questions that I would ask.

656
00:44:37,980 --> 00:44:40,970
No, that, that's, that's
really good advice, Jacqui.

657
00:44:40,970 --> 00:44:42,110
Thank you very much.

658
00:44:42,910 --> 00:44:44,670
Now here's a question for you, Jacqui.

659
00:44:45,645 --> 00:44:48,705
What have you done to actually
prepare for your own funeral?

660
00:44:50,155 --> 00:44:58,345
Well, I have my funeral
arrangements made and paid for.

661
00:44:59,374 --> 00:45:05,275
I have my plot in the
crematorium chosen and paid for.

662
00:45:06,175 --> 00:45:11,735
It's all in a file in my
filing cabinet in my office.

663
00:45:12,445 --> 00:45:16,005
And I've taken both my sons, when
they visited, I've said, come with me.

664
00:45:16,025 --> 00:45:18,345
And I've said, this is
the file that you need.

665
00:45:20,385 --> 00:45:25,145
Now, it was something that
I was always going to do.

666
00:45:26,154 --> 00:45:28,894
And lots of people are always going to do.

667
00:45:28,895 --> 00:45:30,765
We're great gunners, aren't we, people?

668
00:45:30,845 --> 00:45:33,045
You know, there's always
things we're going to do.

669
00:45:33,285 --> 00:45:33,625
Yeah.

670
00:45:33,645 --> 00:45:37,569
Well, in 2022, I went to
a celebrants conference.

671
00:45:38,350 --> 00:45:39,080
in Adelaide.

672
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:40,620
It was a marriage celebrants conference.

673
00:45:41,540 --> 00:45:46,030
And my husband always used to go to these
conferences with me because he, my best

674
00:45:46,030 --> 00:45:50,020
friend is a celebrant in Queensland and
her husband used to go with her and the

675
00:45:50,020 --> 00:45:51,900
boys would catch up and have a great time.

676
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:55,839
My husband had, uh, was ill.

677
00:45:56,145 --> 00:45:59,575
That was a progressive illness and
he decided he wasn't going to go with

678
00:45:59,575 --> 00:46:05,755
me because the weather, if it got to
his chest, he had a lung condition.

679
00:46:05,795 --> 00:46:09,725
And so he said, I'm not going
to go, but you still go.

680
00:46:10,900 --> 00:46:14,460
So I took my sister as a traveling
companion, and off I went, and I

681
00:46:14,470 --> 00:46:18,070
spoke to him while I was away, but
I had a day that I couldn't get hold

682
00:46:18,070 --> 00:46:21,270
of him, and the day I was traveling
home, I couldn't get hold of him.

683
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:25,659
Now unfortunately, I came home
to find that he had passed away.

684
00:46:26,910 --> 00:46:27,620
Oh, Jackie.

685
00:46:28,210 --> 00:46:33,640
So I had to make his arrangements,
and then once his service was over,

686
00:46:33,650 --> 00:46:38,505
I said, You know, a couple of months
later I said, I just woke up one day

687
00:46:38,505 --> 00:46:40,055
and today was the day I had to do it.

688
00:46:40,115 --> 00:46:42,795
I just felt it within myself, I
had to do it, so I went and did it.

689
00:46:44,820 --> 00:46:52,070
So that's so I have prepared as much as
I possibly can and and that's the thing

690
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:57,960
is that you know There's those tasks
that we always say that we'll do when We

691
00:46:57,969 --> 00:47:05,850
have the holidays or when we have some
time off In your case, I believe you're

692
00:47:05,850 --> 00:47:09,575
on your Second career, is that correct?

693
00:47:09,975 --> 00:47:11,015
Are you retired?

694
00:47:11,025 --> 00:47:16,135
You mentioned retirement before
and Well, I retired from the

695
00:47:16,135 --> 00:47:18,964
cemetery and crematorium.

696
00:47:19,645 --> 00:47:22,665
Some of us aren't meant for
retirement and staying home all

697
00:47:22,665 --> 00:47:23,934
day just didn't agree with me.

698
00:47:25,230 --> 00:47:32,620
So, I went to work part time for a
charity for disabled adults, and I

699
00:47:32,620 --> 00:47:37,840
used to do the payroll for the people,
the, the disabled adults that worked

700
00:47:37,950 --> 00:47:40,930
in the, uh, in the organization.

701
00:47:41,619 --> 00:47:45,360
And, you know, I just went for a little
while and I ended up being there.

702
00:47:45,380 --> 00:47:48,460
I went on mater to fill in for
someone on maternity leave and

703
00:47:48,460 --> 00:47:49,850
ended up being there ten years.

704
00:47:49,850 --> 00:47:50,020
Thanks.

705
00:47:51,540 --> 00:47:57,270
So then I retired again from that and
we did a little bit of traveling and

706
00:47:57,270 --> 00:48:01,180
then I came back and during that It
was during that time that I had become

707
00:48:01,180 --> 00:48:02,670
authorised as a marriage celebrant.

708
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:04,730
So I was doing marriages right there.

709
00:48:05,450 --> 00:48:08,119
And then the funeral
started coming in as well.

710
00:48:08,590 --> 00:48:11,519
So I thought, Oh, so I
retired for a second time.

711
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:12,950
So really I'm on my third career.

712
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:16,029
That's great to hear.

713
00:48:16,189 --> 00:48:17,529
That's, that's fantastic.

714
00:48:18,199 --> 00:48:23,260
Now, what do you believe you've touched
on a few of them, but, but what do

715
00:48:23,260 --> 00:48:27,530
you believe is the most challenging
aspect that you've had to work on?

716
00:48:28,470 --> 00:48:30,390
With people who have lost a loved one.

717
00:48:31,070 --> 00:48:39,770
Not knowing how to They're supposed to
do what they're supposed to feel like.

718
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:47,140
You get some people who Can't stop
crying and they say I can't stop crying.

719
00:48:47,150 --> 00:48:51,890
I can't do anything and I said,
well, that's fine You will eventually

720
00:48:52,020 --> 00:48:53,099
but you've got to work it out.

721
00:48:53,690 --> 00:48:58,000
I get other people that I visit and they
say I feel terrible I haven't cried yet.

722
00:48:58,560 --> 00:48:59,190
That was me.

723
00:49:00,540 --> 00:49:07,580
I Haven't Still haven't had this huge
cry from my husband, but in talking

724
00:49:07,580 --> 00:49:12,290
to them, I find out their loved
one had been ill for quite a while,

725
00:49:12,980 --> 00:49:14,870
and they'd been preparing for this.

726
00:49:14,870 --> 00:49:18,590
They knew it was going to happen, they
just didn't know the exact day and time.

727
00:49:19,030 --> 00:49:24,350
So they've had what, uh, a
great woman that I know said

728
00:49:24,390 --> 00:49:26,890
to me was anticipatory grief.

729
00:49:27,650 --> 00:49:28,569
So you've had that.

730
00:49:29,110 --> 00:49:33,140
You, you've had your grieving
every day leading up to it.

731
00:49:33,850 --> 00:49:35,120
And that made sense to me.

732
00:49:35,460 --> 00:49:39,379
For the people who are crying all the
time, it's usually, it's come as a shock.

733
00:49:40,779 --> 00:49:42,210
There's no easy way to die.

734
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:44,900
There's no easy way to
have a loved one die.

735
00:49:46,169 --> 00:49:49,980
For some people, it happens very suddenly.

736
00:49:51,660 --> 00:49:53,800
And the deceased doesn't suffer.

737
00:49:54,700 --> 00:49:57,660
But the family does because they
haven't had time to do and say

738
00:49:57,660 --> 00:49:59,130
everything that they would want to do.

739
00:50:00,550 --> 00:50:04,270
For some people, some families,
it takes quite a while.

740
00:50:05,780 --> 00:50:13,160
And the family doesn't, let's use the word
suffer again, but that's not what I mean.

741
00:50:13,550 --> 00:50:18,760
But the family doesn't maybe feel it
as, as keenly because they've had time

742
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:23,720
to do and say everything that they want
to do and say and prepare themselves.

743
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:31,380
But the person who passes away may
have had, may have, once again we'll

744
00:50:31,380 --> 00:50:38,779
use the word suffer, may have had,
uh, not the, the best few months or

745
00:50:38,860 --> 00:50:41,110
weeks or days before they've gone.

746
00:50:41,170 --> 00:50:48,239
So, sorting that out can be quite a
challenge with families and people that

747
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,459
I visit and that, that I work with.

748
00:50:51,099 --> 00:50:53,039
And I'm never afraid to say, I don't know.

749
00:50:54,250 --> 00:50:57,750
If they ask me a question, should I do
this, should I not do that, should I,

750
00:50:57,750 --> 00:50:59,850
should I, I would say, I don't know.

751
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,180
You have to do what's right for you.

752
00:51:03,340 --> 00:51:05,270
I don't pretend to be a grief counsellor.

753
00:51:06,419 --> 00:51:10,299
I don't pretend to be a
therapist or anything like that.

754
00:51:11,100 --> 00:51:16,060
But I can say, if you would like me to, I
can maybe look for some resources that may

755
00:51:16,060 --> 00:51:19,380
be of help to you and pass them on to you.

756
00:51:20,950 --> 00:51:22,130
I don't know everything.

757
00:51:22,130 --> 00:51:22,560
I don't know.

758
00:51:22,700 --> 00:51:24,020
I'm not trained in any of that.

759
00:51:24,020 --> 00:51:26,160
So I don't, that's not
my area of expertise.

760
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:27,700
I don't try and pretend that it is.

761
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,640
So, yeah, that can be quite challenging.

762
00:51:32,510 --> 00:51:36,849
And is there, in your experience, would
you say there's an, you've seen an

763
00:51:36,899 --> 00:51:40,380
optimal time in which to have a funeral?

764
00:51:40,460 --> 00:51:46,590
Like is it sooner or waiting a few
weeks or is it totally dependent?

765
00:51:46,590 --> 00:51:46,629
Dependent.

766
00:51:46,630 --> 00:51:47,760
It suits the family.

767
00:51:48,730 --> 00:51:50,270
Whatever suits the family.

768
00:51:52,340 --> 00:51:54,660
Some people want to have it
and get it over and done with,

769
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,970
so that it doesn't linger on.

770
00:51:58,400 --> 00:51:59,680
They don't want it to linger.

771
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:07,039
For some, for some reason, family may
live overseas and they have to come from

772
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:10,939
overseas, or they may be away on holidays.

773
00:52:11,210 --> 00:52:14,430
Cruising's a popular way to have
holidays these days, and if you're on

774
00:52:14,430 --> 00:52:16,840
a cruise somewhere, you can't get home.

775
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,570
It depends what the
family has spoken about.

776
00:52:20,510 --> 00:52:22,510
what preparations have
been made in advance.

777
00:52:22,860 --> 00:52:27,400
Some religious faiths have to have
their funeral ceremonies held within

778
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:29,670
so many hours or so many days.

779
00:52:30,090 --> 00:52:36,099
So that's quite often that
is normal practice for them.

780
00:52:36,750 --> 00:52:42,340
Other people really, it's,
it's personal preference.

781
00:52:42,690 --> 00:52:43,690
It's personal preference.

782
00:52:44,060 --> 00:52:47,680
And I often think you really
don't know what you would do until

783
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:48,849
you're in that person's shoes.

784
00:52:51,980 --> 00:52:56,850
And is there any advice, additional
advice that you'd provide, given your

785
00:52:56,850 --> 00:52:58,969
experience and what you've seen, Jackie?

786
00:52:59,500 --> 00:53:00,050
Prepare.

787
00:53:01,620 --> 00:53:02,100
Prepare.

788
00:53:02,730 --> 00:53:06,919
I work with families, if they would
like me to, I work with families

789
00:53:06,950 --> 00:53:09,830
where they can contact me in advance.

790
00:53:09,830 --> 00:53:13,460
I have some literature that they can
read and fill out and put aside and

791
00:53:13,460 --> 00:53:14,890
tell their family they've done it.

792
00:53:15,430 --> 00:53:20,360
So that when The person passes
away, all the family has to do is

793
00:53:20,530 --> 00:53:24,240
go and grab that little booklet and
everything is there that they need.

794
00:53:24,690 --> 00:53:29,840
The documents that they need is,
uh, is listed in that literature,

795
00:53:29,910 --> 00:53:33,280
and they can get them all ready,
like birth certificates and marriage

796
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:38,480
certificates and, and, uh, name, where
they were born, where they went to,

797
00:53:38,649 --> 00:53:39,970
you know, all those sorts of things.

798
00:53:40,229 --> 00:53:44,039
Also, the questions in there help,
would help the celebrant prepare

799
00:53:44,729 --> 00:53:47,659
for their ceremony, and also the
person that's doing their eulogy.

800
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:49,179
Lots of questions.

801
00:53:49,270 --> 00:53:52,990
Celebrants do things like that
now, but it's, it's very, very

802
00:53:52,990 --> 00:53:54,860
helpful to have everything there.

803
00:53:54,930 --> 00:53:57,650
It just makes it so much easy for them.

804
00:53:58,140 --> 00:54:02,539
So yeah, as much as people can prepare
and look into things and don't be

805
00:54:02,539 --> 00:54:03,920
frightened to talk about death.

806
00:54:04,470 --> 00:54:06,819
Just because you talk about it
doesn't mean it's going to happen.

807
00:54:08,390 --> 00:54:13,290
I mean, I have sons that have been
talking about it since they were talk

808
00:54:13,690 --> 00:54:17,450
and they're now in their mid forties
and it hasn't happened to them, you

809
00:54:17,450 --> 00:54:20,280
know, so just because you talk about
it doesn't mean it's going to happen.

810
00:54:21,015 --> 00:54:24,465
There's also don't brush off children.

811
00:54:25,095 --> 00:54:30,845
If children ask questions about death,
answer them as honestly as you can.

812
00:54:31,444 --> 00:54:36,165
There's lots of literature that
you can get for books to read to

813
00:54:36,165 --> 00:54:37,725
children and to tell children.

814
00:54:38,705 --> 00:54:41,955
If children want to go to,
give children the opportunity.

815
00:54:42,625 --> 00:54:43,845
To go to a funeral.

816
00:54:44,455 --> 00:54:46,025
Don't tell them they can't go.

817
00:54:46,365 --> 00:54:49,235
Don't push them off to school or
to a friend's to have the funeral

818
00:54:49,265 --> 00:54:51,755
and then let them be involved.

819
00:54:52,534 --> 00:54:56,545
Children are far more knowledgeable
than we give them credit for.

820
00:54:56,845 --> 00:55:00,924
They can handle far more than we
give them credit for and it hurts

821
00:55:00,924 --> 00:55:05,775
them more if they found out that
they've been told stories or untruths.

822
00:55:06,905 --> 00:55:13,825
They will ask the questions their little
brain and knowledge set needs to know.

823
00:55:15,075 --> 00:55:17,155
And don't fob them off.

824
00:55:17,495 --> 00:55:21,755
And I think if you do those sorts of
things, you're fostering a healthy

825
00:55:21,755 --> 00:55:25,404
attitude to, to death and dying.

826
00:55:25,494 --> 00:55:28,935
Because let's face it,
it comes to all of us.

827
00:55:30,234 --> 00:55:31,725
There's no way we can avoid it.

828
00:55:33,925 --> 00:55:37,824
Well, Jackie, I think that's a beautiful
way in which to end the interview.

829
00:55:38,245 --> 00:55:39,842
so much for being on top of this today.

830
00:55:39,842 --> 00:55:40,455
for having me.

831
00:55:44,100 --> 00:55:47,520
We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,

832
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:49,420
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833
00:55:50,359 --> 00:55:54,620
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834
00:55:54,620 --> 00:55:56,420
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835
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836
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837
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841
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