Community, Kindness and Care: Death & Grief with Emma Beattie
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About this episode
In this episode of Don't Be Caught Dead, I sit down with the inspiring Emma Beattie, founder of Before and After Life, to explore the often-avoided topics of death, dying, and grief. Emma is a trailblazer in reimagining how we can prepare for and respond to the realities of caring for those at the end of life. With a background in creative strategy and storytelling, she brings a unique perspective to the conversation, drawing from her own experiences of loss and her commitment to fostering compassionate communities.
Emma's journey into the world of deathcare began in her childhood in New Zealand, where death was a part of everyday life. She shares how her mother’s involvement in the community shaped her understanding of death and the importance of being present for one another. As we delve into the nuances of caring, dying, and grieving, Emma highlights the need for a shift in how we approach these topics. She advocates for a more hands-on, participatory approach to death, encouraging us to engage with our communities and support one another through the grieving process.
Throughout our conversation, we touch on the significance of rituals, the healing power of nature, and the importance of open communication about death. Emma’s insights challenge us to rethink our relationships with those around us and to embrace the uncomfortable conversations that can lead to deeper connections. Whether it’s through community initiatives or personal rituals, Emma inspires us to imagine new ways of honouring life and death, reminding us that we are all in this together.
Show notes
Guest Bio
Founder of Before & After | Life
Emma Beattie is the Founder of Before & After | Life and is part of a social justice movement dedicated to activating change.
She is a pioneer in re/imagining how people, communities and workplaces can prepare, adapt and respond to the impacts of caring, dying and grieving.
Her professional origins sit in creative strategy, storytelling and social impact. Emma has worked, studied and volunteered in deathing since 2020. She brings an animistic, creative and poetic lens to the terrain. Her work intersects a long line of personal loss. Prioritising generous and sustainable care; she is trained, supported and supervised.
Emma is a member of Palliative Care NSW, NDAN (Natural Death Advocacy Network), The Ethics Centre, hosts Re/gard with Emma on BayFM 99.9 and is an advocate for Compassionate Communities Australia.
Summary
Key points from our discussion:
- Emma Beatie’s background and how it shaped her approach to death and dying.
- The importance of community involvement in caring for the dying and grieving.
- How rituals and nature can play a vital role in the grieving process.
- The need for open conversations about death to foster deeper connections.
- Emma’s insights on how to support one another through the challenges of loss.
Transcript
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What happens if we show up to each other?
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What happens if we care for each
other and tend each other all the
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way through that terrain, through
caring, dying, and grieving?
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And what happens if we share those
roles that it's not just on one or
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two people and they all just seem
to feed into eac ... Read More
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00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:04,740
What happens if we show up to each other?
2
00:00:04,740 --> 00:00:09,180
What happens if we care for each
other and tend each other all the
3
00:00:09,180 --> 00:00:11,850
way through that terrain, through
caring, dying, and grieving?
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And what happens if we share those
roles that it's not just on one or
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two people and they all just seem
to feed into each other like they
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seemed inextricably linked to me.
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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead.
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A podcast encouraging open conversations
about dying and the death of a loved one.
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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to
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bring your stories of death back to
life because while you may not be ready
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to die, at least you can be prepared.
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Don't be caught dead.
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Acknowledges the lands of the
Kulin Nations and recognizes their
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connection to land, sea, and community.
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We pay our respects to their elders
past, present, and emerging, and
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extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First
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Nation peoples around the globe.
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Today I'm speaking with Emma Beattie.
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Emma is the founder of Before and After
Life and is part of the social justice
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movement dedicated to activating change.
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She's a pioneer in reimagining how
people, communities, and workplaces
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can prepare, adapt, and respond to the
impacts of caring, dying, and grieving.
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Her professional origins sit in creative
strategy, storytelling, and social impact.
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Emma has worked, studied and
volunteered in death since 2020.
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Emma brings an animistic, creative
and poetic lens to the terrain,
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and her work intersects a long
line of personal loss, prioritizing
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generous and sustainable care.
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She is trained, supported, and supervised.
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Emma is a member of Palliative Care
New South Wales, NDAN the Natural
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Death Advocacy Network, the Ethics
Center, and hosts regard with Emma
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on Bay FM 99.9, and is an advocate
for passionate communities Australia.
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Thank you so much for
being with me today, Emma.
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Oh, I'm looking forward to
our conversation, Catherine.
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So we had the pleasure of meeting last
year at Sydney Death and Dying Festival.
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I, we were sitting next to each other
in the poetry session with Luke Fisher.
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I believe I saw that you just
interviewed Luke recently.
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I did, I did.
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And it was absolutely fantastic
to reconnect with him and get more
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insight to what was behind his poetry.
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So tell me, I'd love to learn more
about you and what got you started.
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What got me started to really kind of,
you know, to, to go back to the origins,
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I grew up in New Zealand and death.
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And dying in New Zealand
was omnipresent for me.
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My mom was very involved in our
community and death and dying
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had been kind of hidden for her.
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And so she decided that when
she was raising children, she
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didn't want that to be the case.
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And so we were very hands-on
and involved in our community.
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So I built a capacity for it, I guess,
you know, and monkey see, monkey
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do, you know, it was modeled to me.
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And so yeah, there was, as I said,
you know, a long, long line of loss
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and big initiations along the way.
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And then, you know, you go out in the
world and you know, live your life
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and nothing really kind of happens.
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Not too much anyway.
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But then we had a dear friend of ours,
Heather, who was dying, and I went
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back to New Zealand and spent some
time with her and my mum and I went,
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wow, maybe I could do palliative care.
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You know, this feels.
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Like the right kind of space for me, but
I let that thought go and that was in
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my, uh hmm kind of mid to late twenties.
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And then I returned to that
thought when a girlfriend of
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mine, her mum was end of life.
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And the experience was not great,
and I felt really helpless and I
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didn't feel like I had a language
for, you know, supporting her.
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And so I started at the library and
just ravenously went through all
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the books and it just kind of stuck.
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And then I started studying with
Griffith Uni and I trained with
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Zenna Farrago, did a local last aid
course, and then started volunteering
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with Amaya's Home Hospice service.
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And I was already caring, you
know, for a number of, um, aging
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Australians in our community.
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And then I was introduced to an
indigenous elder and started walking
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with him through his dying type.
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You know, these opportunities I think
just came and one thing led to another.
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And then when I got to the point
where I thought, I can't do any more
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volunteering, I'm a sole parent, and
there's only so much time in the week.
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And so I yeah.
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Turned towards the community
and said, what is needed?
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And that's where it started.
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Wow, there is so many things that you have
just said there in, in your, your process
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and your journey that you've gone through
that I have so many questions about.
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So firstly, take me back to when
you say your mum was involved in
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the community and you were being
involved in, in death and dying.
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At what stage?
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What did that look like?
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It would just be that if somebody
was unwell, we were there.
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You know, we would take meals, mom would,
you know, run the mow around the lawns or
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do some like housework or, you know, my
grandparents were from a farming community
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and so everybody helped each other.
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And then we moved to a
small, um, seaside village.
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And again, you know, it was just
a very small community and mom was
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just very alive in that community.
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Always caring and tending, you
know, whether they were sick
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or whether they were dying.
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And then when people died,
we brought them home.
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You know, we were involved.
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I had a dear family friend of ours,
he was like a brother to me, and he
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died when I was 14 in a car accident.
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And you know, it's like the
community rallied around.
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I was cared for.
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I was taken by, you know, another family
friend would take me out on the motorbike.
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You know, the guy's dad, Aiden's, his name
was Aiden's dad, you know, came and spent
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time with me and his grief he came to.
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So there was just, I don't
know, there was presence.
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There was, you know, even, even as
a very, very young child, if there
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was a death, you know, of a pet.
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I remember burying my goldfish in
a matchbox, you know, underneath
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the Holly Hawks, out the front of
my stepfather's home Brew shed.
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There was an honoring.
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I guess, and nothing was hidden from us.
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You know, there was a terrible murder
in our community and, you know, I was
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still invited to go and, you know, view
the body and it just wasn't hidden.
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It was hands-on.
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It was participatory, you know, we
were involved no matter the age.
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And I believe still, that's what has
often healed me in good stead for loss,
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you know, cumulative loss over the years.
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And, and I model the same to my child.
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And tell me, when you went to the
library and, and started to sort
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of think, okay, well I'll do a
bit more research on this topic.
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What were some of those books that
you first picked out and, and one
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of the ones that resonated with you?
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Can you recall any of the names?
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The very, very first one
was Molly Carle's book.
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I. And it was a book of short stories
of lots of different experiences.
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And I don't know, it just felt good.
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It's a very strange thing to
say about death and dying, but
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it, it felt true and, and yeah.
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Gosh, I can't even remember now.
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Some of the books, you know, being
Mortal A Toand, that was pretty early on.
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Steven Jenkinson's book Die Wise
was absolutely pivotal to my
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work and my thinking and the,
the kind of embodied experience.
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Um, you talk us through a little
bit about why and what that meant
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to you and how that has actually
become quite significant for you.
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His work.
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Yeah.
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Uh, he's a wordsmith, you know,
he's a real, he uses etymology
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a lot, so it's like, you know,
what does this really mean?
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So that line of curiosity, just
like en raptures me, I love that.
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I love words and language and, and I guess
what Steven does is he turns everything
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on its head and he questions everything.
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And that's what I found I was doing, you
know, when, when I came to his work was,
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you know, there has to be a different way.
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There has to be a better way.
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And what I also noticed about his work
was that it was very, very enmeshed with,
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and entangled with the natural world
and with this reciprocity for place.
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And that he wasn't somebody who was
just this kind of sage on stage spouting
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stuff, that he, he has his own hardships.
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He has his own, you know,
multiplicity of loss and grief
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and, you know, he, he walks as
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talk.
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And you say that just then you said
that there has to be a better way.
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What had you seen was a way that you,
you weren't liking what you were seeing?
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What, what was it you were thinking
there needs to be a better way as
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opposed to what you were experiencing?
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Oh, so much.
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You know, I mean, the medical system
does a really, really good job,
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you know, and I'm grateful to them.
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But there's also a point where people,
otherwise known as patients, lose
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their agency, lose their autonomy,
and they kind of just go into a system
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and are seen as data, you know, a
set of symptoms and, and data and.
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I believe that we can do a better job
in considering the whole person and
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thinking about, you know, what is this
system that people are spinning around?
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And, you know, an example of
that, a, a girlfriend of mine
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has breast cancer at the moment.
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And you know, I said, were you given any
information about, you know, aftercare?
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No, not, not one piece of
information about how to tend
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her body after her operation.
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And I just, do you know how
much information is out there?
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You know, it, it was like she wasn't even
informed to do some lymphatic drainage.
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And I just went, you know, a little
bit like IVF, you know, we, we
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know doing IVF, the acupuncture.
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This is science, the research shows,
and this is why you have acupuncture
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clinics beside IVF clinics because
they can, I. Go from one to the other.
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Now we know that, that after surgery and,
and with breast cancer, that lymphatic
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drainage helps and she just wasn't told.
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And I just think, yeah, we,
we can do a much better job.
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We, the systems that we have in
thinking about the whole person
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and bringing in therapies that can
support, or not even therapies, but
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people and tools and resources and
supports that support the whole person.
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And you see this also in death.
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We go into a really traditional ceremony
and how is that really honoring the ways
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that we know that person, you know, maybe
there's, you know, a bottle of plank,
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you know, on the, on the coffin or, you
know, maybe there's their favorite song,
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but we can do a better job at that.
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You know, and, and we can train more
people to be funeral celebrants.
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We can do a better job at honoring
the people that we love and we don't
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have to just rest in what we know.
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We can be more imaginative.
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And I'd love for you to, to talk us
through, you always refer or you use
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a phrase, caring, death, grieving.
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And tell me about how you've
changed that in that process.
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How you can lead people to do better
things around caring, death and grieving.
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Well, when I read the statistics on
caring and how seven out of 10 carers
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in Australia are women and you know
the impacts of that, I found it.
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Shocking to begin with.
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Really shocking.
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And I thought, you know, where
is the support for carers?
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As a single parent myself, you
know, I've often found myself
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thinking, where is the support?
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00:13:14,025 --> 00:13:17,535
And then as I was walking, you know,
with people and families at the end of
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life, you really see how small people's
lives become and people feel awkward, and
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they're, they're not there for each other.
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00:13:27,705 --> 00:13:30,555
You know, this is the, the
independent lives that we're
205
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all supposed to be aspiring to.
206
00:13:32,895 --> 00:13:35,775
But really we need to be interdependent.
207
00:13:36,435 --> 00:13:42,525
You know, we need each other, but it's not
really celebrated or revered in, you know,
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00:13:42,525 --> 00:13:44,505
the dominant kind of cultural narrative.
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00:13:44,775 --> 00:13:48,645
You know, we live alone, you know, we make
our own meals or we eat out, you know,
210
00:13:48,645 --> 00:13:50,715
lots of things are, are outsourced anyway.
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00:13:50,745 --> 00:13:54,855
But to come back to caring, I
just thought, you know, there's an
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00:13:54,855 --> 00:13:58,185
invitation to turn towards each other.
213
00:13:58,590 --> 00:14:02,189
More than what we do and
why isn't that happening?
214
00:14:02,250 --> 00:14:05,760
And, and it's important
that we care for our carers.
215
00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:11,220
It's important that we show up and
turn up for each other more than we do.
216
00:14:12,210 --> 00:14:16,920
And so then the, the death thing, or
the dying and the death thing again,
217
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:18,660
you know, people's worlds get so small.
218
00:14:18,660 --> 00:14:22,200
People don't have a language
for, you know, how to be there.
219
00:14:22,380 --> 00:14:25,860
They feel awkward or like they
might be, you know, not welcome
220
00:14:25,860 --> 00:14:27,360
because it's a quiet time.
221
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:29,730
You know, people are busy in their lives.
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00:14:30,090 --> 00:14:33,960
And I, again, I just thought we
can do this better again if we
223
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,400
are turning towards each other.
224
00:14:35,850 --> 00:14:40,560
And then as I was going to, you know,
death cafes and attending people and
225
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:48,540
families and volunteering, what I
noticed was the grieving element, similar
226
00:14:48,540 --> 00:14:52,500
to what you and I were talking about
earlier on, the grieving element is a
227
00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:56,939
huge part of how well we care and die.
228
00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,830
And how well we travel through
the bereavement process or
229
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experience rather not process
through the bereavement experience.
230
00:15:06,450 --> 00:15:10,440
And so what I noticed was like
people didn't really want to talk
231
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about what happens when you die.
232
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,990
People didn't really want talk about
specific, you know, case examples
233
00:15:15,990 --> 00:15:20,130
of, you know, symptoms or symptom
management or anything like that.
234
00:15:20,130 --> 00:15:24,180
People wanted to talk about the people
that they had lost, the people that
235
00:15:24,180 --> 00:15:28,920
had been lost from them and that
they had never mourned, you know,
236
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,940
the perinatal loss for many, many
women, you know, that had never been
237
00:15:33,030 --> 00:15:36,120
acknowledged, intended or shared.
238
00:15:37,110 --> 00:15:42,510
You know, the siblings, your sibling
loss, you know, death by suicide,
239
00:15:42,570 --> 00:15:46,620
sudden death, you know, you know,
dementia being the leading cause
240
00:15:46,620 --> 00:15:48,420
of death in Australia for women.
241
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:53,520
Now, you know, the grieving process
that happens as the person that we love.
242
00:15:54,060 --> 00:15:59,580
It's still here, but not there,
you know, so grief was a, a huge
243
00:15:59,730 --> 00:16:03,330
part of it and I thought, we've
forgotten how to participate.
244
00:16:03,870 --> 00:16:08,850
We've forgotten how to be with each
other, to companion each other.
245
00:16:08,850 --> 00:16:13,920
And you know, I know that I have a
fix it bone in my body that I need
246
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,890
to really keep in check, you know?
247
00:16:16,980 --> 00:16:20,069
But it's like if we can't fix
it, we don't go anywhere near it.
248
00:16:20,310 --> 00:16:25,260
We go in the other direction and it's,
yeah, the invitation, I think Catherine is
249
00:16:25,890 --> 00:16:28,500
what happens if we show up to each other.
250
00:16:28,500 --> 00:16:32,880
What happens if we care for each
other and tend each other all the
251
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,610
way through that terrain, through
caring, dying, and grieving.
252
00:16:35,610 --> 00:16:40,890
And what happens if we share those roles
that it's not just on one or two people.
253
00:16:41,385 --> 00:16:44,685
And they all just seemed to
feed into each other, like they
254
00:16:44,685 --> 00:16:46,845
seemed inextricably linked to me.
255
00:16:47,084 --> 00:16:51,975
It's like I didn't want to just go
and be a funeral celebrant, you know,
256
00:16:51,980 --> 00:16:55,515
and, and show up at the table and
have a cup of tea and write the notes.
257
00:16:55,515 --> 00:16:58,725
And then, not that, you know,
lots of celebrants are more hands
258
00:16:58,725 --> 00:17:01,875
on, but some celebrants, you
know, you dip in and you dip out.
259
00:17:01,875 --> 00:17:08,895
And it's like, actually the richness
of what this work offers me, offers
260
00:17:08,895 --> 00:17:13,754
us is a depth of relationship because
you're having really truthful,
261
00:17:13,994 --> 00:17:16,545
vulnerable, tender conversations.
262
00:17:16,815 --> 00:17:20,835
And in a time when people are so
desperately hungry and desperately
263
00:17:20,835 --> 00:17:25,964
lonely for each other, this is the
place that we can reconnect and learn,
264
00:17:26,085 --> 00:17:28,335
relearn how to be with each other.
265
00:17:29,235 --> 00:17:29,655
And.
266
00:17:30,254 --> 00:17:35,804
How does your connection with nature
influence the way in which you support
267
00:17:35,804 --> 00:17:40,665
people through that experience, or,
it's interesting 'cause I, I liked
268
00:17:40,665 --> 00:17:43,725
the, the fact that you didn't use
the word process when you talked
269
00:17:43,725 --> 00:17:48,314
about grief, but the fact that it's
actually an experience and, and I think
270
00:17:48,314 --> 00:17:50,864
that's a lovely way to, to phrase it.
271
00:17:51,405 --> 00:17:54,524
And it is an experience, not a
process that you move through.
272
00:17:54,554 --> 00:17:57,405
'cause it's, it's never linear, but yeah.
273
00:17:57,495 --> 00:18:03,435
So, so how do you use your connection
with nature to, to help with that?
274
00:18:03,915 --> 00:18:07,635
Ah, so many ways we've lost touch.
275
00:18:07,814 --> 00:18:13,034
I think with nature, I mean, we tend to
kind of put ourselves at the apex, but
276
00:18:13,034 --> 00:18:15,854
actually our, you know, we are the river.
277
00:18:16,455 --> 00:18:19,155
You know, if the river is
sick, then we are sick.
278
00:18:19,155 --> 00:18:21,975
You know, if we don't have any bees,
we don't have any food, it's, you
279
00:18:21,975 --> 00:18:24,405
know, we are so inextricably linked.
280
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:31,920
In the natural world, we are of, you
know, our bodies are 70% water, you
281
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:37,350
know, water that's been cycling on
this earth for over 4 billion years.
282
00:18:37,650 --> 00:18:41,970
You know, when you, when you think about
your tears that you're crying and you
283
00:18:41,975 --> 00:18:44,940
wipe your tears away, that is holy.
284
00:18:44,940 --> 00:18:47,340
That is like such.
285
00:18:47,939 --> 00:18:51,750
An incredible thing to think that
salty water is over 4 billion.
286
00:18:51,990 --> 00:18:55,889
Those tears have been cried again
and again and again and again.
287
00:18:56,550 --> 00:19:00,179
So there's this idea
of us being of nature.
288
00:19:00,780 --> 00:19:02,219
It just holds me.
289
00:19:02,399 --> 00:19:05,490
I think I mentioned my grandparents
had a farm in New Zealand, so
290
00:19:05,490 --> 00:19:07,439
I grew up in nature, you know?
291
00:19:07,439 --> 00:19:12,000
Then I, and I grew up in a little village
and we had the kanoi ranges, you know,
292
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:17,040
the, the beach five minutes down the road
and the river mouth that ran through the
293
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:21,090
village and, you know, we, we run a mark.
294
00:19:21,090 --> 00:19:22,080
Everything was nature.
295
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:22,919
Our toys were nature.
296
00:19:22,919 --> 00:19:26,879
We used to have, you know, these
flax swords and you know, like
297
00:19:26,879 --> 00:19:31,379
everything we ate from the garden
because you couldn't afford to not.
298
00:19:32,580 --> 00:19:37,110
So I just grew up with the
essence of me being of the land.
299
00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:41,610
And I think my dear friend Cam, actually,
he always used to say, and you know,
300
00:19:41,610 --> 00:19:44,729
no matter what happens, it's like
you just somehow land on your feet.
301
00:19:45,585 --> 00:19:49,965
And I think that that is because
of my connection to nature, that
302
00:19:49,965 --> 00:19:53,295
I feel that that's what I'm of.
303
00:19:54,075 --> 00:19:58,905
And so in my work, you meet with somebody
at the end of life and they want the
304
00:19:58,905 --> 00:20:02,685
hospital room, or they want the, the room
in the house that overlooks the trees
305
00:20:02,685 --> 00:20:06,405
so they can watch the birds, they can
watch the light, they can hear the wind.
306
00:20:07,065 --> 00:20:10,275
You know, things get very,
very simple, you know?
307
00:20:10,305 --> 00:20:14,025
And, and that's what people are
looking out for and that's what
308
00:20:14,025 --> 00:20:19,635
we, in our very hurried and rushed
ways, forget to take time for.
309
00:20:19,635 --> 00:20:25,635
So if I'm tending often, you know, a group
or an individual often, you know, we'll
310
00:20:25,635 --> 00:20:31,995
meet outside, you know, it's, I have this
wonderful woman that I, I meet with weekly
311
00:20:31,995 --> 00:20:36,165
and no matter the weather, and we've
been out with our umbrellas, sitting on
312
00:20:36,165 --> 00:20:40,306
our rugs with the, you know, everything
kind of, you know, wrapped around us
313
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,665
in, in the rain, just in the elements.
314
00:20:44,190 --> 00:20:48,960
You know, it's, um, TNA heart says
that the cream of his lifetime's
315
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,810
work was his connection to ground.
316
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,530
And I think when, yeah, when you
kind of bring it back to something
317
00:20:56,070 --> 00:21:00,660
as simple, but so sturdy as where
do I connect with the earth?
318
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,310
Where do I connect with the ground?
319
00:21:02,970 --> 00:21:05,700
You know, that's steady,
that's a steady place.
320
00:21:05,700 --> 00:21:07,260
That's a place that won't let you down.
321
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,880
You know, you can always come back to
that, you know, if you forget to breathe,
322
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,740
you know, you, you remember, you know, my
feet are on the ground, or my hands and
323
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:23,820
knees are on the ground, or my back is on
the ground, or my belly is on the ground.
324
00:21:24,870 --> 00:21:25,110
Yeah.
325
00:21:25,110 --> 00:21:30,060
No, I mean, I also think it plays
into, you know, the storytelling,
326
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,290
the mythology that happens through
these experiences of caring and dying
327
00:21:34,290 --> 00:21:36,780
and death and grieving the stories.
328
00:21:36,780 --> 00:21:37,440
You know, it's.
329
00:21:38,085 --> 00:21:41,385
Somebody will say, oh, you know, there,
there was the most beautiful rainbow on
330
00:21:41,385 --> 00:21:48,075
the day that we buried so and so, or, you
know, I, I hold my sorry, body out of bed
331
00:21:48,075 --> 00:21:50,985
and I made my coffee and I sat in the sun.
332
00:21:50,985 --> 00:21:53,865
And you know, that's as
much as I did that day.
333
00:21:53,865 --> 00:21:58,215
But a magpie came and serenaded
me, or I saw a kookaburra.
334
00:21:58,965 --> 00:22:04,185
You know, I've, I've been in groups
where that kind of nature symbolism
335
00:22:04,245 --> 00:22:07,635
comes through and somebody will
say, oh, you know, I saw blah.
336
00:22:07,905 --> 00:22:10,545
And then somebody else will, you
know, it'll popcorn around the room.
337
00:22:10,545 --> 00:22:13,905
Somebody else will say,
oh, I did too on that day.
338
00:22:14,205 --> 00:22:15,195
Oh, me too.
339
00:22:15,315 --> 00:22:21,855
And then suddenly we have something,
you know, a kernel, a seed that we
340
00:22:21,975 --> 00:22:25,725
can carry forward in the storytelling
of this time in our lives.
341
00:22:26,205 --> 00:22:27,315
So nature, yeah.
342
00:22:27,315 --> 00:22:30,435
Is a, it's, I mean, it's everything.
343
00:22:32,025 --> 00:22:34,095
And what about the role of ritual?
344
00:22:34,095 --> 00:22:36,075
What do you feel that that plays?
345
00:22:37,020 --> 00:22:39,840
It's also everything, especially nature.
346
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:41,250
Ritual is everything.
347
00:22:41,250 --> 00:22:46,080
And I don't mean that it needs to be,
you know, some spectacular mandala,
348
00:22:46,290 --> 00:22:54,419
you know, made from foraged objects
or, you know, these small rituals can
349
00:22:54,419 --> 00:23:00,360
be really, really deeply meaningful
and offer us a ballast, you know, a
350
00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:06,239
kind of a steadying through caring
and through dying and through grief.
351
00:23:06,239 --> 00:23:08,729
So whether it's, you know, through
vigil or whether it's through
352
00:23:08,729 --> 00:23:14,040
ceremony or whether it's, you know,
something that you do after loss.
353
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,760
You know, and it might be very
simple, it might just be when my
354
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,919
dear friend Ang died, you know,
we were very, very old friends.
355
00:23:22,919 --> 00:23:28,050
And when she died about a year and
a half ago, it was bucketing rain.
356
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,040
And I couldn't, I couldn't
get up to her funeral.
357
00:23:32,595 --> 00:23:37,815
And so I took my daughter and we took all
the flowers from the garden and a piece
358
00:23:37,815 --> 00:23:41,505
of bamboo and I just, you know, wrapped
it, tied it and filled it with flowers.
359
00:23:41,505 --> 00:23:44,955
And we sent it, went for a bushwalk
and we sent it out into the dam.
360
00:23:46,215 --> 00:23:54,795
And very simple thing, you know, nothing
grand, nothing exceptional, but a walk
361
00:23:55,035 --> 00:23:58,785
to reflect, you know, some, some color.
362
00:23:58,785 --> 00:24:00,915
She was really vibrant woman.
363
00:24:01,545 --> 00:24:07,065
And in winter I use my granddad's
teacup, you know, that I grew up with,
364
00:24:07,155 --> 00:24:08,925
you know, his birthday ISS in July.
365
00:24:09,225 --> 00:24:13,845
And in the winter I use the winter
teacup and in the springtime
366
00:24:13,905 --> 00:24:15,585
I use the daffodil teacup.
367
00:24:16,155 --> 00:24:18,885
And that wasn't his, I
found it in an op shop.
368
00:24:19,275 --> 00:24:22,695
But it says to me of, you know,
speaks to me of, you know, I can
369
00:24:22,695 --> 00:24:24,345
reflect on all the spring lambs.
370
00:24:24,825 --> 00:24:29,325
That we used to go out and, you know,
check on, you know, or sometimes
371
00:24:29,325 --> 00:24:32,655
we'll have a piece of Turkish delight
or, you know, these, these things
372
00:24:32,655 --> 00:24:35,235
don't need to be huge and big.
373
00:24:35,835 --> 00:24:39,735
You know, I, I have rituals of,
you know, burning sage every day.
374
00:24:39,765 --> 00:24:42,855
We always have candles with
dinner, you know, that they can
375
00:24:42,855 --> 00:24:44,595
be really, really small things.
376
00:24:45,465 --> 00:24:51,645
There was a man that I cared for
and after he died, it's ana tree.
377
00:24:51,645 --> 00:24:52,485
And the ana tree.
378
00:24:52,485 --> 00:24:53,325
It, you know, burst.
379
00:24:53,325 --> 00:24:58,305
It was so, so vibrant and it has
all of these, this moss and these
380
00:24:58,305 --> 00:24:59,685
ferns and stuff all over it.
381
00:24:59,685 --> 00:25:01,995
And, and so that became his tree.
382
00:25:01,995 --> 00:25:03,615
That's, you know, his tree.
383
00:25:04,215 --> 00:25:10,545
And so I go to that tree now, you
know, it's a place to go to ritual.
384
00:25:10,545 --> 00:25:13,635
It's fortifying, you know, it's studying.
385
00:25:14,085 --> 00:25:14,565
It's.
386
00:25:15,210 --> 00:25:21,090
Honoring a very, very dear friend of our
family, Liz, who told me that as she was
387
00:25:21,660 --> 00:25:27,360
coming into land, as she was winding down,
she said it was like a, a wind down toy.
388
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:30,240
You know those tin toys that
used to get you wind up?
389
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:31,980
And they go, did, did, did, did, did.
390
00:25:32,070 --> 00:25:37,770
And she said, I feel like a, a, a windup
toy who's just slowly winding down.
391
00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:42,660
But when she died, all the
natal grass was out everywhere.
392
00:25:42,690 --> 00:25:46,560
So it was, it was the wintertime and
there was just, you know, this beautiful
393
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,620
kind of pink fluff all along the roads.
394
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,370
And I took some pictures and
I sent them to her and, and I
395
00:25:53,370 --> 00:25:56,850
said, you know, I'm always gonna
now find you in the natal grass.
396
00:25:58,170 --> 00:26:03,300
You know, it's, I don't
know these, these rituals.
397
00:26:04,650 --> 00:26:05,610
Bring joy.
398
00:26:05,700 --> 00:26:12,330
They, they give us lines of connection
and ways of loving after all of the ways
399
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,000
that we knew how to love are lost to us.
400
00:26:15,510 --> 00:26:15,810
You know?
401
00:26:15,810 --> 00:26:20,100
And it's sometimes they come
easily and sometimes, you know,
402
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,490
we need to locate them, sometimes
we need to practice and find them.
403
00:26:24,270 --> 00:26:25,620
And it's not easy.
404
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,830
You kind of have to build
a muscle for it sometimes.
405
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,790
It's funny that you say that because
that was when I was recovering from
406
00:26:32,790 --> 00:26:34,590
my car accident and doing the rehab.
407
00:26:34,620 --> 00:26:38,970
Uh, it was one of the things that was
part of our homework where, and our
408
00:26:38,970 --> 00:26:44,400
refiguring of how to find, I suppose, joy
in, in a life that had been quite changed.
409
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,040
And, and they referred
to them as joy rides.
410
00:26:47,460 --> 00:26:52,200
So that was our, our task that
we had to do is that on a daily
411
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,120
basis we had to find a joy ride.
412
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:56,130
And for me, those joy rides were.
413
00:26:56,850 --> 00:27:00,300
Going on a dog walk or a walk
in nature and finding something
414
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,280
that I hadn't seen previously.
415
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,990
So whether that was a new flower
or a new leaf coming up to bud,
416
00:27:07,230 --> 00:27:11,820
whether it be a lady bird, whether
it be a rainbow, whether it be
417
00:27:11,820 --> 00:27:14,190
caught in a, in a shower of rain.
418
00:27:14,730 --> 00:27:19,620
But it was really amazing when you
do exercise that muscle as you were
419
00:27:19,620 --> 00:27:23,790
referring to, how much more you then see.
420
00:27:25,860 --> 00:27:26,280
Yes.
421
00:27:26,850 --> 00:27:32,639
And so then imagine if we apply that
presence and intentionality to each other.
422
00:27:34,830 --> 00:27:34,889
Ies.
423
00:27:35,399 --> 00:27:38,490
You know, that's, that's,
that's what we are missing.
424
00:27:39,060 --> 00:27:42,240
And, you know, in, in a time
where we are so, so lonely when
425
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,220
there's an epidemic of loneliness.
426
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,470
That's what we need for each other.
427
00:27:46,530 --> 00:27:50,460
It's, you know, we live in the same
house, but we, we don't, you know, we
428
00:27:50,460 --> 00:27:53,310
ships in the night, we're so, so busy.
429
00:27:54,870 --> 00:27:55,830
And I was so busy.
430
00:27:55,865 --> 00:28:01,980
I, I sat out with my daughter on
Sunday and we just sat in the garden.
431
00:28:02,010 --> 00:28:05,040
'cause you know, it's been so, so wet
that we haven't been able to do that.
432
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:10,320
And we just sat in the garden, talked
and played and watched the bees and, and
433
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,390
she said to me, mum, this is so nice.
434
00:28:12,390 --> 00:28:14,610
It feels like a really long
time since we did that.
435
00:28:15,330 --> 00:28:18,090
And it is because we hadn't
been in the garden for so long.
436
00:28:18,900 --> 00:28:23,865
But that presence and attention,
it's meaningful, you know, it, it
437
00:28:24,180 --> 00:28:26,370
is nourishing, it's soul nourishing.
438
00:28:27,090 --> 00:28:32,430
And tell me, how do you encourage
individuals and families to sort
439
00:28:32,430 --> 00:28:37,530
of embark on this path and, and
have more open conversations?
440
00:28:37,530 --> 00:28:40,710
How do you suggest that,
that people do that?
441
00:28:41,370 --> 00:28:41,910
It's so
442
00:28:41,910 --> 00:28:43,500
different every time.
443
00:28:44,159 --> 00:28:46,260
You know, you have, I'm traveling.
444
00:28:46,260 --> 00:28:48,750
I'm Companioning a
beautiful man at the moment.
445
00:28:48,750 --> 00:28:54,240
And you know, he is so open and he's
having all the right conversations with
446
00:28:54,240 --> 00:29:00,720
his family and he's done, he's prepared
and he's just really, really open and
447
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:05,610
willing and, you know, to have difficult
conversations and, and it's incredible.
448
00:29:05,610 --> 00:29:11,460
But then I've been, you know, with
other people who are not dying
449
00:29:11,879 --> 00:29:17,190
right up until they're active dying
and who just refuse point blank
450
00:29:18,149 --> 00:29:19,950
to, you know, and it's not my job.
451
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:26,010
It's not my job to make somebody
understand or, you know, get
452
00:29:26,010 --> 00:29:27,240
them to do some truth telling.
453
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:28,050
That's not my job.
454
00:29:28,740 --> 00:29:30,120
My job is just to love them.
455
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,274
I. You know, my job is just
to work through what comes up.
456
00:29:34,695 --> 00:29:36,465
You know, here, here are some invitations.
457
00:29:36,554 --> 00:29:37,514
Here is a process.
458
00:29:37,514 --> 00:29:39,764
Of course, here is a framework
that we can move through.
459
00:29:40,274 --> 00:29:44,294
You know, what of these things
have you completed, you know, what
460
00:29:44,294 --> 00:29:46,605
feels important to you, you know?
461
00:29:46,665 --> 00:29:51,435
But also it's, I don't know, life
has so many forms and frameworks and,
462
00:29:51,915 --> 00:29:58,304
and sometimes there's more value in
just humanizing, you know, just being
463
00:29:58,304 --> 00:30:02,504
with, I do, I remember when I was
training in dementia and they gave,
464
00:30:02,564 --> 00:30:07,845
they gave me this flower thing, so,
you know, what music do you like?
465
00:30:07,845 --> 00:30:10,635
You know, what do your dog, you
know, do, have you had pets?
466
00:30:10,875 --> 00:30:16,754
And you, and I was just like, have
we really lost the skill of having a
467
00:30:16,754 --> 00:30:22,725
human conversation with somebody to
just presence them and be genuinely
468
00:30:22,725 --> 00:30:25,155
interested and curious about them?
469
00:30:25,695 --> 00:30:27,075
Where have we gone So wrong.
470
00:30:28,305 --> 00:30:28,785
You know,
471
00:30:28,995 --> 00:30:33,915
and what was interesting that I find that
you said earlier is the fact that the need
472
00:30:33,915 --> 00:30:39,045
to fix it, that we don't always have to
feel like it's our role to fix something.
473
00:30:39,795 --> 00:30:43,125
Sometimes it's better just
to be with that person.
474
00:30:43,875 --> 00:30:47,475
It's it, it's, you know, it's People
sometimes say to me, you know, what
475
00:30:47,475 --> 00:30:51,285
do I say to somebody who's just lost
their husband or their child, or
476
00:30:51,285 --> 00:30:54,015
their dog, or has had a miscarriage?
477
00:30:54,945 --> 00:30:55,485
I love you.
478
00:30:57,375 --> 00:30:58,485
This is really shitty.
479
00:30:58,935 --> 00:30:59,685
Am I allowed to say that?
480
00:30:59,955 --> 00:31:01,305
This is really hard.
481
00:31:01,305 --> 00:31:02,955
Yeah, this is really hard.
482
00:31:03,675 --> 00:31:06,165
And there, there's
nothing more to be said.
483
00:31:06,165 --> 00:31:09,735
It's just, you know, it's
just, it's just showing up.
484
00:31:10,005 --> 00:31:15,225
And I think, you know, this is what
we don't do well is this kind of
485
00:31:15,225 --> 00:31:18,135
consistency in showing up to each other.
486
00:31:18,135 --> 00:31:20,850
I. You know, it's like, oh no,
I don't feel like it tonight.
487
00:31:20,850 --> 00:31:21,600
I'm too tired.
488
00:31:21,990 --> 00:31:25,050
Or, oh, I'm, you know, got a bit
of a headache, or I'm feeling
489
00:31:25,050 --> 00:31:25,950
a little bit outta sorts.
490
00:31:25,950 --> 00:31:29,580
I don't feel like I can kind
of, you know, be exuberant or
491
00:31:29,580 --> 00:31:31,470
be funny or, you know, perform.
492
00:31:31,950 --> 00:31:35,580
And it's like, you know what, what if
we just remember how to be with each
493
00:31:35,580 --> 00:31:39,540
other and whatever shape we're in, it's
actually okay to go to your friend's
494
00:31:39,540 --> 00:31:43,680
house and put the kettle on and sit
in different rooms and read a book.
495
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,040
You're just there, you know,
or, or to take a beach walk
496
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:48,510
and, and not talk at all.
497
00:31:49,110 --> 00:31:51,060
You know, this is what
we have with family.
498
00:31:51,090 --> 00:31:55,590
And so what if we started, sometimes
some people have this with family.
499
00:31:55,950 --> 00:31:56,250
Yeah.
500
00:31:56,370 --> 00:32:01,770
You know what, if we could just
be, yeah, just be together without
501
00:32:01,770 --> 00:32:04,530
going, oh, I've only got half an hour
and, you know, let's have dinner.
502
00:32:04,530 --> 00:32:10,230
But, you know, in six weeks from now, and,
you know, if you think about caring and
503
00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:17,280
death or dying and grieving, it's what
it's being, you know, slowing down and.
504
00:32:18,105 --> 00:32:23,145
Being, it's staying overnight when
somebody has just lost somebody.
505
00:32:24,255 --> 00:32:27,585
You know when somebody has died
and you go, you know what, I'm, I'm
506
00:32:27,585 --> 00:32:31,215
gonna be here this week with you,
and then after that, somebody else
507
00:32:31,215 --> 00:32:33,135
is gonna be here for another week.
508
00:32:34,065 --> 00:32:38,475
You know, or, or it's after the
ceremony and then everybody goes
509
00:32:38,475 --> 00:32:43,905
back to their lives and the bereaved
are left to their own devices.
510
00:32:44,745 --> 00:32:46,485
What happens then?
511
00:32:46,845 --> 00:32:50,025
It's, it's, we need these
ecologies of care to kind of
512
00:32:50,025 --> 00:32:51,285
go in and go, you know what?
513
00:32:51,285 --> 00:32:54,945
I'm gonna show up every day, or
I'm gonna text you every day for
514
00:32:54,945 --> 00:32:59,145
a month, and after that I'm gonna
text you every week for a month.
515
00:32:59,145 --> 00:33:02,415
And after that I'm gonna text
you every month for a year.
516
00:33:03,255 --> 00:33:08,025
This, this continuity of
showing up and just being with.
517
00:33:08,550 --> 00:33:09,899
Without performance.
518
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,689
I, I feel, you know, with all this,
with the social media, you know,
519
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:14,220
everything's such a performance.
520
00:33:14,220 --> 00:33:17,280
It's, you know, you need the, the
good clothes and the great car
521
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:18,870
and the, you know, second house.
522
00:33:18,870 --> 00:33:23,250
And the, what I see at the end
of life is people downsizing.
523
00:33:23,879 --> 00:33:29,129
You know, without all the stuff, you
can't take your fancy car with you.
524
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:35,879
You know, it's very humbling, I
think, to be in the presence of
525
00:33:35,879 --> 00:33:44,189
somebody who is really grieving and
it's very loving to contain that.
526
00:33:44,909 --> 00:33:48,330
And what I mean by containment
is to wrap around that person and
527
00:33:48,330 --> 00:33:53,520
not hold space, but to wrap around
that person and say, here we are.
528
00:33:54,270 --> 00:33:56,340
Let's see what wants to reveal.
529
00:33:56,669 --> 00:34:01,530
Maybe nothing, maybe no
talk, maybe some quiet words.
530
00:34:02,325 --> 00:34:07,605
Maybe we'll listen to a song, but
then just showing up again after that.
531
00:34:07,725 --> 00:34:14,475
And after that, it's this
participation being with reciprocity.
532
00:34:14,475 --> 00:34:20,595
All these yummy, yummy words you,
that we forget in our busy lives.
533
00:34:21,014 --> 00:34:23,715
You know, looping back to this,
to this ritual, when somebody
534
00:34:23,715 --> 00:34:25,155
dies, we buy all these flowers.
535
00:34:25,155 --> 00:34:26,415
It's like, you know, bring a plant.
536
00:34:26,655 --> 00:34:30,824
Bring a plant that needs watering so
that that person who's bereaved, contend
537
00:34:31,005 --> 00:34:33,165
something, you know, and look forward to.
538
00:34:33,165 --> 00:34:34,155
It blooming.
539
00:34:34,545 --> 00:34:40,725
When Uncle Magpie died, you know, I was
given, his ex partner gave me a piece,
540
00:34:40,725 --> 00:34:48,495
Lily, and a year after he died, I got that
piece, Lily and I separated it and planted
541
00:34:48,495 --> 00:34:53,865
more, you know, and it keeps going.
542
00:34:54,645 --> 00:34:57,885
And I have him now in more
rooms than I had before.
543
00:34:59,025 --> 00:35:00,495
You know what a beautiful thing.
544
00:35:00,900 --> 00:35:01,320
Mm.
545
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:08,820
And tell me how do you find people
respond when they participate in the,
546
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:10,620
the different workshops you offer?
547
00:35:10,620 --> 00:35:13,350
I know you have how grief
moves, and then you've got the
548
00:35:13,350 --> 00:35:15,420
coughing coffin weaving as well.
549
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:21,750
Tell me about how that role of doing
something and being involved in those
550
00:35:21,750 --> 00:35:26,940
sort of workshops help people with
these experiences of death and dying
551
00:35:27,900 --> 00:35:28,770
a few ways.
552
00:35:29,190 --> 00:35:32,940
One, one is, you know, some people
just really like to talk, you know,
553
00:35:32,940 --> 00:35:36,450
this kind of idea of talk therapy,
you know, to just get it out and tell
554
00:35:36,450 --> 00:35:38,520
the stories and, and verbalize it.
555
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,110
But not everybody is like that.
556
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,140
Some people, you know, really
need to move their bodies.
557
00:35:43,290 --> 00:35:43,800
Honestly.
558
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,160
All of us really need to move
our bodies and need to move grief
559
00:35:47,700 --> 00:35:49,440
through and with our bodies.
560
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,820
Some people, you know, really
value making and the thing about
561
00:35:53,820 --> 00:35:59,430
making something is that you, you
drop into a different kind of.
562
00:35:59,759 --> 00:36:00,270
Space.
563
00:36:00,419 --> 00:36:03,000
It's like a buffer, you know?
564
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:06,720
It's not confronting, you know, sometimes
you sit in a, in a group setting in a, in
565
00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:09,990
a circle setting and you just think, oh,
you know, there's always gonna be one that
566
00:36:09,990 --> 00:36:13,709
talks too much and I don't really have
capacity to listen to everybody's stories.
567
00:36:13,709 --> 00:36:17,310
And, you know, and then some
people really like that.
568
00:36:17,459 --> 00:36:22,649
It really helps 'em contextualize their
own feelings and, and locate themselves
569
00:36:22,649 --> 00:36:24,450
in their, in the experience of loss.
570
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,830
But yeah, the, the making, I don't know,
there's something really kind of old
571
00:36:29,009 --> 00:36:33,959
and ancient about making with your hands
and it accesses you access a different
572
00:36:33,959 --> 00:36:37,770
part of your psyche almost like, you
know, when you do somatic writing and
573
00:36:37,770 --> 00:36:39,330
you think, oh wow, that was surprising.
574
00:36:39,330 --> 00:36:40,770
I didn't realize that was there.
575
00:36:41,069 --> 00:36:46,680
It's, it's like, oh, wow, that old
grief again, you know, or, gee, I
576
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,919
haven't thought of, you know, that
memory for a really long time.
577
00:36:49,919 --> 00:36:53,520
And listening to people kind
of sharing as they're making.
578
00:36:53,985 --> 00:37:01,245
It's a very non-confrontational way
of tending, loss or, or learning about
579
00:37:01,245 --> 00:37:03,105
difficult, you know, subject matter.
580
00:37:03,975 --> 00:37:08,505
And it's, it's a way also
of working with metaphor.
581
00:37:09,345 --> 00:37:13,785
You know, weaving is a really, really
beautiful metaphor to, to work with.
582
00:37:14,325 --> 00:37:17,505
I've got a, a, a workshop, a
little morning workshop coming
583
00:37:17,505 --> 00:37:19,005
up where we're doing cyanotype.
584
00:37:19,095 --> 00:37:24,225
And so working with the color blue,
you know, why do we use blue and grief?
585
00:37:24,255 --> 00:37:27,525
You know, what does that actually
mean and what's the color theory of
586
00:37:27,525 --> 00:37:29,115
blue and what are some of the stories?
587
00:37:29,115 --> 00:37:31,065
And we, you know, talk
about Maggie Nelson's Blue.
588
00:37:31,065 --> 00:37:36,795
It's, and it's so rich with metaphor
that the storytelling is a more
589
00:37:36,795 --> 00:37:41,385
palatable way of dealing with really
difficult subject matter, I guess.
590
00:37:41,745 --> 00:37:47,355
And it's a way of, you know, creating
shared experiences, which is also lasting.
591
00:37:48,330 --> 00:37:51,330
You know, people create their own
relationships, particularly with
592
00:37:51,330 --> 00:37:55,230
something like the coffin weaving that
happens over a couple of days, you know,
593
00:37:55,230 --> 00:37:59,310
that, that creates new relationships.
594
00:37:59,490 --> 00:38:02,100
Or sometimes they'll run a
program over seven weeks.
595
00:38:02,490 --> 00:38:06,839
And it's really interesting that
about, you know, about four weeks into
596
00:38:06,899 --> 00:38:12,270
everybody's showing up to each other and
themselves, there's a kind of intuitive
597
00:38:12,270 --> 00:38:16,500
sense, you know, there's a resonance that
starts to take shape in the group and
598
00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:17,879
they'll say, oh, you know, this happened.
599
00:38:17,879 --> 00:38:22,049
And then somebody else will say, oh
yeah, I was also thinking about that.
600
00:38:22,049 --> 00:38:24,629
Or something like that
happened for me as well.
601
00:38:24,629 --> 00:38:27,870
And, and we've lost that as well.
602
00:38:27,899 --> 00:38:32,759
You know, we've lost that, that thing
that happens when we spend a lot of
603
00:38:32,759 --> 00:38:36,540
time together that we kind of take for
granted, I think with our really, you
604
00:38:36,540 --> 00:38:37,980
know, our close friends and family.
605
00:38:38,490 --> 00:38:44,100
But when we start spending time in,
in people's realms, you know, you,
606
00:38:44,100 --> 00:38:45,629
you start attuning on a different
607
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:46,350
level.
608
00:38:47,730 --> 00:38:52,500
A few things that I'm, I'm picking up
in, in the fact that we don't have to
609
00:38:52,500 --> 00:38:57,480
present ourselves to be this particular
image or this particular caricature
610
00:38:58,020 --> 00:38:59,670
to then present to someone else.
611
00:38:59,670 --> 00:39:05,790
We should just be there and, and
whatever shape or form that is, and it
612
00:39:05,790 --> 00:39:10,860
seems to be, be there on a more regular
basis than what we currently are.
613
00:39:11,310 --> 00:39:17,700
So it allows for these moments of just
going for a walk together, sitting
614
00:39:17,700 --> 00:39:19,529
there, having a cup of tea together.
615
00:39:20,190 --> 00:39:22,470
So there's more of that connection.
616
00:39:23,130 --> 00:39:24,390
Would that be fair to say?
617
00:39:24,750 --> 00:39:26,340
I think that's it, Catherine.
618
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,160
I think just, you know, really
intentional time together.
619
00:39:30,029 --> 00:39:31,110
It is so.
620
00:39:31,710 --> 00:39:32,609
Strengthening.
621
00:39:32,609 --> 00:39:36,930
It's so soul nourishing for us as
individuals, but it's also really
622
00:39:37,379 --> 00:39:43,620
bonding for us as human beings to, you
know, to be in this way together and,
623
00:39:44,069 --> 00:39:47,339
you know, yeah, without the kind of
rhetoric and without the performance.
624
00:39:47,339 --> 00:39:52,710
And this is, I think, really, truly what
keeps me in this work is the, the purity,
625
00:39:52,710 --> 00:39:55,920
the honesty, the frankness, the humor.
626
00:39:56,339 --> 00:39:57,870
You know, there's no bs
627
00:39:58,230 --> 00:39:58,825
no, it's,
628
00:39:58,830 --> 00:40:01,649
it's just, it's, this
is, you know, it's real.
629
00:40:02,009 --> 00:40:06,629
And sometimes I find it really difficult
in, you know, in, in other circles
630
00:40:06,629 --> 00:40:08,549
to kind of figure out where I am.
631
00:40:08,549 --> 00:40:11,460
You know, what, what, what
the social etiquette of this?
632
00:40:11,460 --> 00:40:14,850
Or, you know, if you've had my kid
a couple of times, am I supposed to
633
00:40:14,850 --> 00:40:16,410
now have your kid a couple of times?
634
00:40:16,770 --> 00:40:23,490
You know, this kind of always balancing
and, and the thing that caring and
635
00:40:23,790 --> 00:40:27,180
dying and grieving, it just, it's.
636
00:40:27,525 --> 00:40:32,505
You just, you can just love and
just be honest and authentic
637
00:40:32,745 --> 00:40:34,695
and there's no guesswork.
638
00:40:34,815 --> 00:40:40,425
You know, there's, it's like, it's
just, it's real In a very, very
639
00:40:40,425 --> 00:40:43,035
performative world that we live in.
640
00:40:43,035 --> 00:40:43,965
It's real.
641
00:40:44,445 --> 00:40:45,885
I can trust it, you know?
642
00:40:45,885 --> 00:40:46,725
I know where I'm at.
643
00:40:46,725 --> 00:40:48,015
It's authentic and genuine.
644
00:40:48,015 --> 00:40:52,305
And I, you know, I've, I had a situation
one time, I was on a, a panel discussion
645
00:40:52,305 --> 00:40:56,355
and a, a woman came up and said to
me, wow, you know, that was so great.
646
00:40:56,355 --> 00:40:58,305
I really valued what you said.
647
00:40:58,305 --> 00:41:00,435
And, you know, you're so authentic.
648
00:41:00,975 --> 00:41:03,765
And I, I kind of did a
double take and I thought,
649
00:41:05,805 --> 00:41:08,985
wow, we've gone so wrong.
650
00:41:09,735 --> 00:41:15,975
We have strayed so far off the path that
now authenticity is some kind of beacon,
651
00:41:17,475 --> 00:41:20,115
you know, like it's, it's a, it's anomaly.
652
00:41:20,685 --> 00:41:25,065
And it's interesting because, you
know, you're so true in the fact that.
653
00:41:26,069 --> 00:41:29,700
There is, there is no, there's no
bullshit when you deal with this
654
00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:35,220
industry and when, when you actually
see on a daily basis what people are
655
00:41:35,220 --> 00:41:38,069
dealing with at the last stages of life.
656
00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:38,220
Mm-hmm.
657
00:41:38,220 --> 00:41:41,730
And the impact of that ar
of on loved ones around.
658
00:41:42,359 --> 00:41:45,990
And it's interesting that you mentioned
earlier that, that everything else
659
00:41:45,990 --> 00:41:50,609
drops away and it comes back to
those very simple things that people
660
00:41:50,609 --> 00:41:54,420
want around them and of a lot of
them being connected to nature.
661
00:41:55,049 --> 00:41:59,460
What are the, the sort, is there any
themes that you've found that when,
662
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:04,259
when people are dying, what their
preferences are or what their choices are?
663
00:42:04,965 --> 00:42:06,645
Oh, it's so different.
664
00:42:07,035 --> 00:42:07,905
It's so different.
665
00:42:07,905 --> 00:42:12,345
You know, I, one guy, you know,
literally 20 minutes before
666
00:42:12,345 --> 00:42:14,085
he died, wanted a cigarette,
667
00:42:16,695 --> 00:42:18,945
like, and I lit him up.
668
00:42:18,975 --> 00:42:20,930
You know, it, it's, that's,
it's what he wanted.
669
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:21,890
It's what he wanted.
670
00:42:22,305 --> 00:42:25,665
I was like, okay, but I'm not
staying in the room just letting
671
00:42:25,665 --> 00:42:28,155
you know, like, you wanna do that?
672
00:42:28,155 --> 00:42:28,605
It's fine.
673
00:42:28,605 --> 00:42:33,405
The window's open, like, yeah, but I'm,
I'm not gonna be there while you do that.
674
00:42:33,645 --> 00:42:35,265
And yeah, I'll be right back after.
675
00:42:35,865 --> 00:42:36,285
Yeah.
676
00:42:36,285 --> 00:42:40,545
It's, you know, it's, it's so different.
677
00:42:40,545 --> 00:42:44,775
It's so different for every,
everybody, you know, some people,
678
00:42:44,865 --> 00:42:49,125
more than one person actually,
I can count on, on a hand.
679
00:42:49,575 --> 00:42:53,145
People have said, I want you
around because you don't annoy me.
680
00:42:53,505 --> 00:42:57,795
Now, I'm sure my daughter would really
like, disagree with that, like vehemently.
681
00:42:58,335 --> 00:43:00,225
But yeah, it's, I think.
682
00:43:02,250 --> 00:43:06,960
What people want is love,
love and connection.
683
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,110
I mean, you know, and again, not
everybody, some people don't,
684
00:43:10,110 --> 00:43:14,250
some people would rather slip away
on their own without everybody
685
00:43:14,250 --> 00:43:15,870
by their bedside, you know?
686
00:43:15,870 --> 00:43:16,950
And that's okay too.
687
00:43:16,980 --> 00:43:21,150
Some people, you know, want to be sung
over by a threshold choir or by, you
688
00:43:21,150 --> 00:43:25,260
know, or, or somebody of their family
singing or some music playing, you know,
689
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:30,450
people playing guitar or, you know,
or, or the cricket on, or the tele,
690
00:43:30,810 --> 00:43:34,830
you know, like everybody is different.
691
00:43:34,830 --> 00:43:39,780
I mean, what it, low lighting, I mean,
and I'm talking about active dying,
692
00:43:39,780 --> 00:43:42,360
you know, like low lighting and Yeah.
693
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,180
And, and sometimes not
any sound, you know,
694
00:43:45,300 --> 00:43:47,520
it's, yeah.
695
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,400
And maybe just explain
that, that active dying.
696
00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:54,840
Stage just in case people are
unfamiliar with what that term means.
697
00:43:55,620 --> 00:44:00,600
So when I talk about active dying, I mean
like really the, the end of the end stage.
698
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,950
And so that can be from three months,
it can really kind of kick in three
699
00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:06,540
months and it can kind of go on and on.
700
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:11,850
And this is why in the act dying stage
sometimes, you know, people say, oh,
701
00:44:11,850 --> 00:44:13,350
you know, I think we are getting close.
702
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,900
And then it's like, oh, I've
gotta get back to work, you
703
00:44:15,900 --> 00:44:18,840
know, I can't wait around here
forever, kind of thing, you know?
704
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:24,090
So it can go on for some time a little
bit like, I mean, death is a labor, right?
705
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:28,890
So like a labor could go from, you
know, three hours, four hours to,
706
00:44:28,950 --> 00:44:30,930
you know, a couple of days or longer.
707
00:44:31,500 --> 00:44:36,840
But by an act of dying, it just means
that our bodies start to wind down.
708
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:41,340
You know, we are not really as hungry
or as thirsty as we were before.
709
00:44:41,820 --> 00:44:45,780
The skin can get quite splotchy
because, you know, the, the
710
00:44:45,780 --> 00:44:47,040
heart is starting to beat.
711
00:44:47,415 --> 00:44:48,165
Slower.
712
00:44:48,734 --> 00:44:52,694
Often people get very, very
cold, you know, because the
713
00:44:52,694 --> 00:44:55,065
circulation is a lot slower.
714
00:44:55,095 --> 00:44:58,815
But equally, sometimes, you know,
people can get very hot and it can
715
00:44:58,845 --> 00:45:01,455
oscillate, you know, hot and cold.
716
00:45:02,115 --> 00:45:07,964
The breathing becomes less, people might
not have the energy that they had before.
717
00:45:07,964 --> 00:45:13,185
But you know, our lovely friend Liz, our
dear friend Liz, I mean, she was lucid.
718
00:45:13,185 --> 00:45:17,685
She was so clear, and she called
me and she said, you know, I really
719
00:45:17,685 --> 00:45:21,495
can't believe that in the next
24 to 48 hours, I won't be here.
720
00:45:22,815 --> 00:45:24,734
She was clear, lucid as you like.
721
00:45:25,154 --> 00:45:29,865
She was of the Baha faith, and she
really, she was very, very practiced
722
00:45:30,015 --> 00:45:36,105
in her faith and, but you know,
she was, she wasn't, I mean, regal
723
00:45:36,285 --> 00:45:39,765
just so, so clear, so, so clear.
724
00:45:40,274 --> 00:45:44,654
You know, some people, you know,
might be just very, very drowsy.
725
00:45:44,714 --> 00:45:46,815
They might slip into unconsciousness.
726
00:45:47,190 --> 00:45:52,980
Whereas, you know, somebody like Liz was
very, very clear right up until the end.
727
00:45:53,790 --> 00:46:00,180
And how important is it for people to have
a community around them to support them?
728
00:46:01,110 --> 00:46:01,800
Vital,
729
00:46:02,790 --> 00:46:06,150
vital, where they say we need four
New South Wales Palliative care talks
730
00:46:06,150 --> 00:46:09,960
about having your four, four people
so that, you know, your primary carer
731
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,420
doesn't get, you know, absolute burnout.
732
00:46:12,420 --> 00:46:15,210
But four people also is not,
you know, it's not a lot.
733
00:46:15,690 --> 00:46:19,920
Then there's other research that says,
you know, it takes 16 people, you know,
734
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:25,920
for somebody to die at home, it takes
16 people for somebody to die at home.
735
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:30,540
Well, and that, you know, that might be
specialist palliative care in the gp.
736
00:46:30,570 --> 00:46:34,980
Maybe there's an OT or a speech therapist,
or maybe, you know, there's a dietician
737
00:46:34,980 --> 00:46:36,840
or you know, whoever your team is.
738
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,030
But that's also your, your carers.
739
00:46:39,030 --> 00:46:41,760
Maybe somebody of faith, maybe
you know, a couple of neighbors,
740
00:46:42,060 --> 00:46:43,680
friends, family, whatever.
741
00:46:44,774 --> 00:46:52,665
I mean, I don't know about you, but I
mean, counting 16 people, you know, really
742
00:46:52,665 --> 00:46:55,995
close people that you could call on.
743
00:46:57,134 --> 00:46:59,654
I don't know how many
people can really do that.
744
00:47:00,585 --> 00:47:03,315
You know, you might have a
handful of friends that you
745
00:47:03,315 --> 00:47:04,694
know that are like your besties.
746
00:47:04,694 --> 00:47:09,524
You're kind of in a posse, but are
they going to be there as you are
747
00:47:09,555 --> 00:47:11,745
winding down, as Liz would say?
748
00:47:12,075 --> 00:47:12,375
Mm-hmm.
749
00:47:12,855 --> 00:47:20,265
You know, it's, I think that we invest so
much time in our work and not enough time
750
00:47:20,265 --> 00:47:25,995
in our relationships, and the chances are
that, you know, with medicine being the
751
00:47:25,995 --> 00:47:31,605
way that it is, that we are likely, you
know, if we don't die suddenly, that we
752
00:47:31,605 --> 00:47:34,305
are going to be living with comorbidities.
753
00:47:34,395 --> 00:47:39,705
And by that I mean multiple
diagnoses or multiple ailments.
754
00:47:41,024 --> 00:47:42,435
Um, and.
755
00:47:43,694 --> 00:47:44,025
You know?
756
00:47:44,055 --> 00:47:44,325
Yeah.
757
00:47:44,325 --> 00:47:46,815
So what, what does that look like for us?
758
00:47:46,815 --> 00:47:51,315
You know, when I read the seniors paper
locally here in the Byron Shire, you
759
00:47:51,315 --> 00:47:53,685
know, people are really struggling.
760
00:47:53,685 --> 00:47:58,605
You know, tradies want to charge them,
you know, $250 to change a light bulb.
761
00:47:58,935 --> 00:48:01,845
You know, they're living on sandwiches
and you know, and we think that there
762
00:48:01,875 --> 00:48:07,035
are so many resources available, but
there are not enough people caring
763
00:48:07,215 --> 00:48:09,075
for the people who need support.
764
00:48:09,375 --> 00:48:10,755
That's just, that's it.
765
00:48:10,815 --> 00:48:13,005
This is where the compassionate
communities piece, you
766
00:48:13,005 --> 00:48:13,965
know, really comes in.
767
00:48:14,235 --> 00:48:17,235
You don't have to be best friends with
your neighbors up and down the street.
768
00:48:17,265 --> 00:48:20,625
You don't have to do that,
but you, you wanna check in on
769
00:48:20,625 --> 00:48:22,424
each other from time to time.
770
00:48:23,295 --> 00:48:27,465
And also that builds a space and a
trust and a relationship so that when
771
00:48:27,465 --> 00:48:32,265
somebody does lose somebody or when
you do, you know, somebody dies in
772
00:48:32,295 --> 00:48:38,654
your close network, that these already
kind of threads of relationship that
773
00:48:38,654 --> 00:48:42,105
you can kind of lean into so you
don't have to do it on your own.
774
00:48:43,005 --> 00:48:47,025
And can you tell us a little bit about,
I know that you are not an expert
775
00:48:47,025 --> 00:48:51,105
in it, but just your experience with
Compassionate Communities Australia
776
00:48:51,105 --> 00:48:55,035
and, and what you've, you've seen of
the model they're, they're trying to
777
00:48:55,035 --> 00:48:59,685
bring into Australia and I, I believe
that it's based on the UK model that,
778
00:49:00,225 --> 00:49:03,045
so if you can just talk a little bit
through that and, because I think it,
779
00:49:03,465 --> 00:49:09,855
it really is from my understanding very
much trying to replicate what your mum
780
00:49:09,855 --> 00:49:11,505
was doing at home all those years ago.
781
00:49:12,420 --> 00:49:12,810
Boom.
782
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:14,530
That's what it is, Cathy.
783
00:49:14,550 --> 00:49:16,710
I mean, that, that's the kernel of it.
784
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:21,090
It's just be kind, you know,
just be kind to people.
785
00:49:21,150 --> 00:49:24,840
Pay attention, you know, if, if
somebody's lawn hasn't been mowed in
786
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,870
a really long time, you might wanna
just pop a note in the mailbox or,
787
00:49:28,110 --> 00:49:30,990
you know, knock at the door and well,
you know, holler over the fence.
788
00:49:30,990 --> 00:49:33,150
You know, all, okay, like,
can I give you a hand?
789
00:49:33,510 --> 00:49:36,090
If you start to, you know, if you
go out for an evening walk or a
790
00:49:36,090 --> 00:49:40,770
morning walk, you will encounter
people, have a conversation.
791
00:49:41,340 --> 00:49:42,060
Just do that.
792
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:43,200
It's as simple as that.
793
00:49:43,230 --> 00:49:46,590
You know, we don't all have to be best
friends, but I can tell you after a couple
794
00:49:46,590 --> 00:49:53,910
of floods and bush fires and COVID, that
our, our street network is so tight, so
795
00:49:53,910 --> 00:49:57,750
tight, and I know that, you know, if I've
got a flat tire, my neighbor will let me
796
00:49:57,750 --> 00:50:00,180
know, you know, if I've left my lights on.
797
00:50:01,650 --> 00:50:04,800
Or, you know, if I go away on holiday
and I need someone to keep an eye on the
798
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:09,930
house, you know, I, I have a number of
people that I can rely on up our street.
799
00:50:10,470 --> 00:50:12,810
You know, if there's excess
something in the garden, my
800
00:50:12,810 --> 00:50:15,780
neighbor Ken will grow silver beet.
801
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:21,450
He will grow just to be able to
give fresh vegetables to neighbors.
802
00:50:21,930 --> 00:50:27,840
He won't eat them himself, but he will
grow them in order to be kind, you know?
803
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,000
And he will fix somebody's bike.
804
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:31,800
He will go and snip of the lawn.
805
00:50:31,830 --> 00:50:35,970
Like, he's so active in this
community and, you know, and he knows
806
00:50:35,970 --> 00:50:38,130
everybody and everybody knows him.
807
00:50:38,130 --> 00:50:40,560
And we've lost, we've lost that.
808
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:44,400
So, compassionate communities is really
just, you know, start in your own home.
809
00:50:45,030 --> 00:50:48,840
Start with your neighbors, start with
your street start, and then, you know, and
810
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:53,670
that feeds into community, participate,
get active care, pay attention.
811
00:50:54,210 --> 00:50:57,870
But they also have a really
wonderful program around super
812
00:50:57,870 --> 00:51:00,210
connectors and super connectors.
813
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:04,440
Then it means that, you know, not
everything rests on your shoulders
814
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:08,580
because, you know, as we know,
particularly with women all the
815
00:51:08,580 --> 00:51:13,710
time, everything, you know, the
emotional labor of life can get heavy.
816
00:51:14,220 --> 00:51:19,530
So the idea of a super connector
means that you have knowledge and
817
00:51:19,530 --> 00:51:24,540
you can redirect and link people
up with the tools and the supports
818
00:51:24,540 --> 00:51:25,950
and the resources that they need.
819
00:51:26,430 --> 00:51:29,940
And this is, this is really, really
powerful stuff because then, you
820
00:51:29,940 --> 00:51:31,259
know, again, it's not on you.
821
00:51:31,259 --> 00:51:34,410
I don't have to go and hang
out with Joey down the road and
822
00:51:34,620 --> 00:51:36,360
you know, I wasn't in the war.
823
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:41,370
He's a veteran, you know, but I can
bring in, you know, somebody, you
824
00:51:41,370 --> 00:51:45,660
know, like I could bring in an OT,
for instance, who works with veterans.
825
00:51:45,660 --> 00:51:48,360
And so that kind of trust
then would be there.
826
00:51:48,870 --> 00:51:54,450
Or I could, you know, if I
know that somebody's unwell and
827
00:51:54,509 --> 00:51:57,480
they play piano, then I could.
828
00:51:57,915 --> 00:52:01,875
Know somebody else in our community
that can also play piano or I can
829
00:52:01,875 --> 00:52:06,044
reach out, you know, it's like
this kind of PR job, you know?
830
00:52:06,044 --> 00:52:06,194
Yeah.
831
00:52:06,254 --> 00:52:09,884
And women, like we are
hardwired for networks.
832
00:52:10,125 --> 00:52:12,794
It's, you know, if you've got a startup
enterprise, you want women on the job
833
00:52:12,794 --> 00:52:18,015
because they will network like crazy
and build and, you know, this is why you
834
00:52:18,015 --> 00:52:23,115
see, you know, book clubs and bowls and
tennis and coffee mornings and, you know,
835
00:52:23,115 --> 00:52:27,435
the big morning teas and you know, like,
this is, this is what we do as women.
836
00:52:27,435 --> 00:52:29,325
We, we bring people together.
837
00:52:29,415 --> 00:52:34,815
Not all of us, obviously, some of
us feel introverted, but to become
838
00:52:34,845 --> 00:52:39,734
a super connector is a really
powerful thing in a community.
839
00:52:40,035 --> 00:52:44,924
But it's, I mean, it doesn't have to be
another thing to do, you know, it's, it's
840
00:52:44,924 --> 00:52:48,555
like, who are you and where are you at
and what are your skills and resources
841
00:52:48,555 --> 00:52:53,234
and knowledge and, and how can you be
in service to your community with what
842
00:52:53,234 --> 00:52:55,815
you have without doing too much more?
843
00:52:56,850 --> 00:53:00,960
And I think you give a a great example
about just starting in your own own
844
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:06,060
backyard and you know, where if someone's
going away and, and you know, you notice
845
00:53:06,060 --> 00:53:08,970
that their papers, you know, being
lying in the driveway, you know, pop it
846
00:53:08,970 --> 00:53:11,040
somewhere where it's, you know, away.
847
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,490
And so it doesn't clearly scream
that, you know, I'm away on
848
00:53:14,490 --> 00:53:17,190
holidays or take people's bins in.
849
00:53:17,250 --> 00:53:21,210
It was something that we in,
in our street certainly did.
850
00:53:21,270 --> 00:53:24,839
There was someone who was, I would,
I would say was a super connector in
851
00:53:24,839 --> 00:53:30,180
our street and, and now it's taken the
form since COVID that every Easter we
852
00:53:30,180 --> 00:53:31,740
have an Easter egg hunt for the kids.
853
00:53:31,740 --> 00:53:35,190
On the, on the street we have a little
sticker that we put on our mailbox and
854
00:53:35,190 --> 00:53:38,640
we have a morning tea together, and then
we do the same at Christmas time as well.
855
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:40,379
And it just means that for those.
856
00:53:40,950 --> 00:53:44,430
Two times a year we connect with
other people in the street that we
857
00:53:44,670 --> 00:53:46,890
may just fleetingly say hello to.
858
00:53:47,130 --> 00:53:51,540
But it is nicer if you're part of a larger
community and to know, like you said,
859
00:53:51,540 --> 00:53:55,795
that if you leave your lights on someone,
someone will let you know, you know?
860
00:53:56,735 --> 00:54:00,870
And, and tell me, tell
me about the, the Bay fm.
861
00:54:00,870 --> 00:54:04,590
So is this a new evolution for you, Emma?
862
00:54:04,595 --> 00:54:05,315
What's going on?
863
00:54:05,315 --> 00:54:05,515
This
864
00:54:05,515 --> 00:54:06,355
is what's happening.
865
00:54:06,355 --> 00:54:06,356
Yeah.
866
00:54:07,020 --> 00:54:08,370
Well that, that's pretty exciting.
867
00:54:08,370 --> 00:54:13,500
So last year I was invited onto
one of their other programs a few
868
00:54:13,500 --> 00:54:19,650
times, and then one of the hosts
really, she said to me, oh, well you
869
00:54:19,650 --> 00:54:20,940
should just have your own program.
870
00:54:22,095 --> 00:54:25,634
I thought, oh, well, I
hadn't thought of that.
871
00:54:26,384 --> 00:54:29,055
And so she said she
encouraged me to apply.
872
00:54:29,475 --> 00:54:31,424
It was a bit of a
process, but we got there.
873
00:54:31,515 --> 00:54:34,185
And so I'm so grateful
for that invitation.
874
00:54:34,185 --> 00:54:38,895
And I just think community radio
is such a wonderful platform to
875
00:54:38,895 --> 00:54:43,790
be able to remind people of how to
be kind to each other, you know?
876
00:54:43,790 --> 00:54:43,990
Yeah.
877
00:54:43,995 --> 00:54:50,834
So it's called Regard with Emma, and
the idea is yet to really have regard
878
00:54:50,834 --> 00:54:54,794
for each other and for the place that we
live, and what does that look like, and
879
00:54:54,794 --> 00:54:59,745
obviously weaving in the themes of caring,
dying, and grieving as being a way to
880
00:54:59,745 --> 00:55:03,194
turn towards each other and, and care.
881
00:55:03,765 --> 00:55:05,475
And so, yeah, I'm really exciting.
882
00:55:05,475 --> 00:55:06,934
That starts on the 16th of
883
00:55:06,935 --> 00:55:07,305
June.
884
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:11,550
And what region does
the, the Bay FM cover?
885
00:55:11,550 --> 00:55:14,700
'cause it's 99.9 fm. Mm-hmm.
886
00:55:14,701 --> 00:55:17,550
Uh, and what is it, the region
that you'll, you'll be covering?
887
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:19,410
It's the Byron Shire region.
888
00:55:19,410 --> 00:55:20,850
Northern Rivers Byron Shire region.
889
00:55:20,910 --> 00:55:21,990
But you can stream it.
890
00:55:22,170 --> 00:55:23,610
You can stream it online.
891
00:55:23,820 --> 00:55:24,990
Oh, that's so exciting.
892
00:55:25,050 --> 00:55:25,680
Yeah.
893
00:55:25,710 --> 00:55:30,240
But you know, I contacted Haley
West who, who has dead air, and I
894
00:55:30,240 --> 00:55:32,280
just said, okay, hot tips let go.
895
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:34,680
You know, like, what can
you, what do I need to know?
896
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:39,240
Because it feels very, I mean, you're
very practice host Catherine, but for
897
00:55:39,240 --> 00:55:46,320
me, seeing that the decks, you know,
and like kudos to DJs because Oh yeah.
898
00:55:46,415 --> 00:55:47,145
It's very confusing.
899
00:55:47,145 --> 00:55:47,385
It's like a whole
900
00:55:47,565 --> 00:55:47,985
confus.
901
00:55:47,985 --> 00:55:48,145
Yeah.
902
00:55:48,145 --> 00:55:48,985
It's another language.
903
00:55:49,255 --> 00:55:50,250
Yeah, it is.
904
00:55:50,250 --> 00:55:50,700
It is.
905
00:55:50,700 --> 00:55:55,380
Like when I go into our local radio
station here, I'm overwhelmed by all
906
00:55:55,380 --> 00:55:58,650
the buttons and all of the things that
you could press that could probably
907
00:55:58,650 --> 00:56:00,540
make a real, real big mistake.
908
00:56:00,870 --> 00:56:01,200
Uh, yeah.
909
00:56:01,230 --> 00:56:02,490
So, yes, I, it.
910
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,780
I, I like my little home studio that
I've got, but yeah, that's, that's
911
00:56:06,780 --> 00:56:08,490
a whole other ball game, isn't it?
912
00:56:08,765 --> 00:56:12,000
It it's a whole other ball game,
and so it is got butterflies
913
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:13,380
in my tummy, that's for sure.
914
00:56:13,380 --> 00:56:17,280
You know, I definitely feel alive, but
I'll have somebody with me for the first
915
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:22,920
couple of weeks before I properly fledge
and yeah, it makes me feel uncomfortable
916
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:26,820
and it's probably not something that
I would've sought out, but, you know,
917
00:56:26,820 --> 00:56:31,590
when you receive an invitation, and,
and for me, my journey across caring and
918
00:56:31,590 --> 00:56:33,960
dying and grieving has been like this.
919
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:36,090
It's, it's been a, a call and response.
920
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:40,500
It hasn't been something that I, you know,
did a course and then thought, you know,
921
00:56:40,500 --> 00:56:45,390
I'll get a nice website and, you know,
now I'm, you know, a desk dollar, no.
922
00:56:45,420 --> 00:56:52,620
It's like, no, it's, for me, it's very
much been a kind of ripening process,
923
00:56:52,860 --> 00:56:55,440
you know, and listening and responding.
924
00:56:56,445 --> 00:57:02,565
Mm. But I find most people that work in
this space are informed by an experience.
925
00:57:02,655 --> 00:57:05,715
Their own personal experience is
either, you know, the death of a
926
00:57:05,715 --> 00:57:10,125
loved one or something that they've
felt that hasn't sat well with
927
00:57:10,125 --> 00:57:11,745
them, and they'd like to change it.
928
00:57:11,775 --> 00:57:13,485
And so it's.
929
00:57:13,995 --> 00:57:18,705
It's not a surprise that, that then
you evolve as, as time goes on,
930
00:57:18,705 --> 00:57:22,035
because you are just responding to
what you are seeing in front of you.
931
00:57:22,125 --> 00:57:27,075
So I think this is a, a very exciting
evolution in the Emma BD world.
932
00:57:27,464 --> 00:57:31,245
So, so tell me, will
you be having guests on?
933
00:57:31,245 --> 00:57:33,194
Is, have you worked out the format yet?
934
00:57:34,515 --> 00:57:38,355
Yeah, so the, I mean the idea, yes,
we will, I will have guess that's
935
00:57:38,355 --> 00:57:41,475
like another layer of complexity
that I'm going to need to navigate.
936
00:57:41,805 --> 00:57:45,495
How to, you know, do all the
buttons while I'm engaging.
937
00:57:45,825 --> 00:57:49,665
So, no, the idea is to, to make
it very much around local voices,
938
00:57:49,665 --> 00:57:54,555
because what I know from facilitating
groups is that people, as I said
939
00:57:54,555 --> 00:57:57,795
before, can kind of contextualize
themselves and other people's stories.
940
00:57:57,855 --> 00:58:02,865
And so we need to
normalize death and dying.
941
00:58:03,260 --> 00:58:07,370
And grief in everyday conversations,
we need to, you know, bring it back.
942
00:58:07,370 --> 00:58:10,790
It's, it's this idea of, you know,
kind of life, life life, life life.
943
00:58:10,790 --> 00:58:14,600
Death is not, it's life, death,
life death, life death, life death.
944
00:58:15,020 --> 00:58:19,400
And so we, we need it in our daily
conversations because this is what
945
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:21,665
offers us so much vitality mm-hmm.
946
00:58:21,750 --> 00:58:26,390
In our lives is, you know, this idea of,
you know, this could be the last meal
947
00:58:26,390 --> 00:58:30,650
or this could be, you know, the last
time that I make a cup of tea for this
948
00:58:30,650 --> 00:58:32,330
person who's sitting at my kitchen table.
949
00:58:32,330 --> 00:58:33,020
Or this could be.
950
00:58:33,990 --> 00:58:39,210
You know, this, this idea of
preciousness of life and relationship.
951
00:58:39,660 --> 00:58:45,360
So bringing these conversations into the
every day feels important and difficult
952
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:51,030
conversations and opening up, you know,
how other people ritualize their loved
953
00:58:51,030 --> 00:58:56,130
ones and opening up, you know, the
complexity of, you know, disenfranchised
954
00:58:56,130 --> 00:58:59,130
grief and cumulative grief.
955
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:02,640
And, you know, what does it mean
to be, you know, have community
956
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:07,530
death care and, and you know it,
how willing are you to participate
957
00:59:07,530 --> 00:59:09,720
in the death care of a loved one?
958
00:59:09,750 --> 00:59:13,560
You know, like just letting people
know what their options are.
959
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:18,210
I have this little kind of snappy thing
called, you know, get death sorted
960
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:21,720
and it's, you know, G is for gather.
961
00:59:22,470 --> 00:59:27,509
The information and D is for
discerning that information.
962
00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:30,540
And then s is for
sharing that information.
963
00:59:30,540 --> 00:59:32,190
So GDS get sorted.
964
00:59:32,550 --> 00:59:38,580
And so what happens then is
that people start to understand
965
00:59:38,580 --> 00:59:40,080
what is available and possible.
966
00:59:40,860 --> 00:59:44,580
Mm. You know, it's, it's kind of like
people don't know and then they know too
967
00:59:44,580 --> 00:59:46,410
late and then they say, I wish I had of
968
00:59:46,860 --> 00:59:47,190
Yeah.
969
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:48,090
Every time.
970
00:59:48,090 --> 00:59:49,440
Like every time.
971
00:59:49,860 --> 00:59:53,880
And so I think as a community, yeah.
972
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:59,100
What does it mean, you know, to have
this amazing platform of BFM Community
973
00:59:59,100 --> 01:00:04,920
Radio and to be able to share with
people, well, the smorgasbord of what
974
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:11,009
is possible and available and, and
then them being able to say, okay,
975
01:00:11,009 --> 01:00:13,200
well I can do it my way, you know?
976
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:14,880
Yeah, I can do this our way.
977
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:17,850
Well now I know that I
don't have to do that.
978
01:00:18,510 --> 01:00:22,860
We talked really early on about the
tumble spin of the medical system
979
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:27,600
can be, you know, some, sometimes
not, but oftentimes it's a whole
980
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:29,565
new language to learn and yeah.
981
01:00:29,570 --> 01:00:33,840
You know, sets of data and specialists
and, and all the things, but what, what,
982
01:00:33,870 --> 01:00:37,830
what happens when you have a little bit
of knowledge before you need it so that
983
01:00:37,830 --> 01:00:40,560
it's not, you know, initiation by fire?
984
01:00:41,220 --> 01:00:41,340
Yeah.
985
01:00:41,340 --> 01:00:45,390
You know, it's what happens if we as
a community are practiced in the ways,
986
01:00:45,390 --> 01:00:49,680
what happens if we have come together
multiple times to practice shrouding
987
01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:53,400
so that when we need it, it's available
to us and we know how to do that.
988
01:00:53,940 --> 01:00:59,460
What happens if we, you know, I, I
had a group of 11 to 14 year olds
989
01:00:59,580 --> 01:01:05,430
and we were out, you know, making
water, music and, you know, out in
990
01:01:05,430 --> 01:01:10,530
the river, and I said, you know, if
somebody died you could create music.
991
01:01:10,530 --> 01:01:12,930
You could come and you could make a song.
992
01:01:13,815 --> 01:01:17,925
And you could celebrate your friend
in this way, or your brother,
993
01:01:17,925 --> 01:01:20,775
or your sister, or your parent
or your grandparent in this way.
994
01:01:21,585 --> 01:01:24,525
You know, like just
opening up possibility.
995
01:01:24,525 --> 01:01:24,735
You know?
996
01:01:24,735 --> 01:01:28,245
I think we first, we have to
kind of imagine what is possible
997
01:01:28,335 --> 01:01:29,685
so that we can step into it.
998
01:01:30,225 --> 01:01:34,845
That is a super powerful way to
finish our conversation today.
999
01:01:34,845 --> 01:01:35,265
I think, Emma,
1000
01:01:38,565 --> 01:01:40,155
that is so beautiful.
1001
01:01:41,325 --> 01:01:43,095
I think you should get that on a t-shirt.
1002
01:01:43,635 --> 01:01:44,865
That should be your tagline.
1003
01:01:46,905 --> 01:01:48,885
I, but I, I think it's so true.
1004
01:01:48,945 --> 01:01:54,465
I think that, you know, you have to
imagine to then be able to step into it.
1005
01:01:54,465 --> 01:01:56,055
So I think that that's really beautiful.
1006
01:01:56,955 --> 01:02:00,225
Mm. Thank you so much for
being with us today, Emma.
1007
01:02:01,215 --> 01:02:02,565
I've thoroughly enjoyed myself.
1008
01:02:02,565 --> 01:02:03,650
Thanks for having me, Catherine.
1009
01:02:06,990 --> 01:02:10,410
We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,
1010
01:02:10,710 --> 01:02:12,480
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1011
01:02:13,230 --> 01:02:17,490
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1012
01:02:17,490 --> 01:02:19,439
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1013
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:23,189
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1014
01:02:23,189 --> 01:02:24,930
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1015
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1016
01:02:29,250 --> 01:02:30,990
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1017
01:02:31,290 --> 01:02:32,609
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01:02:32,759 --> 01:02:33,750
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01:02:33,750 --> 01:02:37,680
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Read Less
Resources
- Visit the Website: Before and After Life
- Visit the Website: Palliative Care New South Wales
- Visit the Website: Compassionate Communities Australia
- Tune in: Bay FM 99.9
- HOW GRIEF MOVES (HGM)
A tri-monthly space to share, dance and make with loss.
Website
- Emma suggests these books:
- Stephen Jenkinson - Die Wise
- Molly Carlisle - The Death Talker
- Atul Grande - Being Mortal
- Francis Weller - The Wild Edge of Sorrow
- Make Death Admin Easy with The Critical Info Platform
A simple system to sort your personal paperwork for when your information becomes critical.
- My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?
Our guide, ‘My Loved One Has Died, What Do I Do Now?’ provides practical steps for the hours and days after a loved one's death. Purchase it here.
- Support Services
If you're feeling overwhelmed by grief, find support through our resources and bereavement services here.
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