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Inside.

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I was terrified.

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I was terrified of death.

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And I woke up one morning very well
into my career with that realization

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that I am a doctor, terrified of
death and dying for that matter.

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And it's like it's a pizza
chef scared of his dough. ... Read More

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Inside.

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I was terrified.

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I was terrified of death.

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And I woke up one morning very well
into my career with that realization

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that I am a doctor, terrified of
death and dying for that matter.

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And it's like it's a pizza
chef scared of his dough.

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Like that's what I deal with.

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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a
podcast encouraging open conversations

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about dying and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death back to life.

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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't be caught dead.

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Acknowledges the lands of the cool
and nations and recognizes their

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connection to land, sea, and community.

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We pay our respects to their elders
past, present, and emerging, and

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extend that respect to all Aboriginal
and Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Today I have with me Leah Kaminski.

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Leah Kaminski is a physician
and an award-winning writer.

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Her debut novel, the Waiting
Room, won the Voss Literary Prize.

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The Hello Bones won both the literary
fiction and historical fiction

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categories of the 2019 International
Book Awards and the 2019 American

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Best Book Award for literary fiction.

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Leah holds a master of fine Arts from
Vermont College of Fine Arts in the USA.

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Leah, I'm so excited to have you
with us on the podcast today.

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Welcome.

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Thanks for having me,

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Catherine.

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Now, we had the.

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Opportunity to meet while you
were doing a talk at Frankston

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Library just before Christmas.

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So I think I mentioned just
previously that you've been my

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company all my Christmas holidays.

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I've had the beautiful pleasure of reading
two of your books while I've been r and r.

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So the two that I have read are the hollow
bones and also we're all going to die.

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Bit of light reading over Christmas.

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Hey.

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Yeah, and I have to say that I did
give a few of your books away as

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presents as Christmas gifts, and
they were certainly appreciated and

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well read over the Christmas period.

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Thank you.

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The thing that strikes me is how does
a qualified physician get started

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in writing and poetry as well?

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It's more that, how does a physician
get started from when you were a writer?

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So grade three would
go back to grade three.

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I was captain of the tunnel ball team.

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I'll have, you know, but for
sports lessons, I used to, I.

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Miss Gras, the librarian used
to hide me in the library so

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I didn't have to go to sport.

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Okay.

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Ah, I was a bookworm,
absolute crazy reader.

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And turning point in my life was in
grade three, Ms. Elizabeth Weeks.

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My grade three teacher published my
very first poem in the school magazine,

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and it was called the Royal Beatle Bug.

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Oh, how lovely.

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And that was my first published poem,
had the word psychedelic in it, which is.

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Sort of telling my age.

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Pretty good for grade three.

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That's amazing.

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So what I'm basically trying to, what I'm
blathering on about is that I've always

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been obsessed with reading and I've
always written to get into medical school,

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which is what I always wanted to do.

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Well, actually, I also wanted to
do vet. So it was either that or

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vet. Anyway, I basically got in
on my English and French marks.

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Oh, really?

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Didn't do that well in biology
and chemistry, so I was not

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like an A science student.

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Okay.

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Yep.

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So I got in and then over six years of
study, I really had to kind of develop

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what I call tunnel vision of the soul,
where you just only look in front

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of you, you're only kind of getting
through medical school, and I dropped.

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All my other creative things that I was
doing, dance and drawing and reading.

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I just six years of just bam.

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And then by the time I sort of got out,
did my internship and then I was starting

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to do a pediatric training program.

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I was rostered on for Christmas night.

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I was on the pediatric oncology
ward and there was a little boy

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there who was dying and I was the
only one on, and I was a junior.

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Like I was a very junior doctor.

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I. And he spiked a fever and
I rang up the consultant.

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I said, I dunno what to
do, what should I do?

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And he said, this is the
senior doctor in charge.

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He said, you've gotta do
a spinal tap, Kaminsky.

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I. And I'm like, there's a 7-year-old
dying boy here on Christmas Eve.

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I'm gonna do a spinal tap.

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Well, you didn't have a choice.

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Like, you know, you were the junior
and you just did what they said.

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And it was one of the most horrific
experiences of my life, but also a

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turning point in my life because you
know, you gown up, you put the mask on,

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and all they can really see is your eyes.

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And this poor little
boy turned around to me.

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I can still remember his
face and his huge eyes.

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And he said, is this going to hurt?

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And I'd become such a shell
of a human being that I lied.

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I said, no, it's not gonna hurt.

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And I just sort of went into robot mode
and just, you know, did the spinal tap

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out, came the fluid, the kid was screaming
and I just remember, you know, I walled

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off to do the procedure and then I just
had to leave the room and I was on a,

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you know, 56 hour shift or something and
got back to the doctor's room and fell.

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Apart, I think everything I'd tried to
hold together over all of my studies and

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the sort of, you know, the suffering of
humanity that you see, um, fell apart.

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And that's when I, I took a break
and I was actually living with

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a guy in Sydney who was dying
at the time, at the age of 32.

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And I, I, I did a writing course,
just, you know, an adult education

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thing for a couple of weeks.

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And then I applied for A NYU
was running a summer program.

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In writing.

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So I went across and took up some
poetry and short story courses, and

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I just felt like I'd come home again
and it allowed me to sort of, it was

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kind of a therapeutic process in a way.

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It allowed me to process everything
I'd seen as a young doctor through

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the lens of the written word.

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It's a very long-winded way of telling you
I'm probably really a humanities chick,

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but I think that, I remember when
you first told that story, when

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I met you, and I just thought it
really does indicate that sort of

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division between the physician and
how you, you're raised or taught in

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a medical environment and then that.

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Perhaps lack of skill that's taught
in relation to communicating and

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the human side of medical training.

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And my heart just, oh,
I really felt for you.

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You know, a girlfriend of mine works
in Ed and she went to study as an

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adult after she had her first child.

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And I just, I know that.

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Long hours and the pressure
that you must have been under.

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So I really feel for you, and I'm
not surprised, that was a very

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significant moment in your life.

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Look, I think things have gotten better.

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Hopefully things have gotten better in
the training system nowadays, although,

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but I think for me it's, you know,
I've, I've always kind of, I really

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enjoyed the side of medicine as a
student and as a junior doctor, you

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know, as a kind of birth kind of girl,
you know, and worked in pediatrics and.

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Kind of more, I guess, the
happy side of medicine.

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And so when it came to anything to do
with death, which, you know, I remember

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in my undergraduate years we had a
whole week, which was called sex week.

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And we were trained, you know,
we talked about sex very openly.

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I'd still remember, I. Sitting
at Queen Victoria Hospital in, in

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its day in the city, in Melbourne.

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Yeah.

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And we were asked to cover the whiteboard.

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It might've been a blackboard then
with names that we know for genitalia.

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And one side was.

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Penis and the other side was vagina
or you know, I don't think they

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mentioned clitoris in those days.

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Yep.

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It certainly hadn't been
mapped by that stage.

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No, we had not.

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So there were all these sort of, you know,
slang words and we just covered the board.

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We just, everything about sex, we would
talk about, when I look back through

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the years, did we ever talk about death?

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Zero.

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Nobody discussed death.

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And so it became a sort of a verboten,
like you just, I still remember for

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years and years when I'd send someone
off for, I dunno, a CT scan or something,

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expecting it to come back normal.

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And then you'd have these words
written across in code, you know,

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metastatic infiltrate meaning.

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There's secondaries from
cancer or you know, there's a

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suspicious shadow of metaplasia.

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And I'd sit there with this and
this patient sitting up speed.

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And I still remember, I mean,
how disingenuous I had become.

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I'd sort of sit there kind of going, oh,
well, um, doesn't it look too bad And do

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anything I could to kind of gloss over it?

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And then.

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Handball the patient
off to the specialist.

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I'm just gonna send you to someone
just to double check because

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I'm not a hundred percent sure.

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Blah, blah, blah.

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I mean, obviously I wasn't that
callous, but inside I was terrified

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and I didn't have the skills.

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I was terrified of death, and I woke up
one morning very well into my career.

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With that realization that I
am a doctor, terrified of death

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and dying for that matter.

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And it's like it's a pizza
chef scared of his dough.

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00:09:35,670 --> 00:09:37,470
Like that's what I deal with.

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So there's this big gap in my
education and in my maturity, I think.

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And that really set me on the path
of, you know, middle-aged goth girl,

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exploration of death and dying.

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And that's when I started writing.

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We're all gonna die.

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And it started with this little
boy Joshua, back in those days

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when he turned around and said,
you know, don't lie to me.

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Is this gonna hurt?

185
00:10:00,465 --> 00:10:01,335
And I said, no.

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00:10:01,335 --> 00:10:03,255
And he said, don't lie to me.

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00:10:03,495 --> 00:10:07,545
So I'd sort of been glossing over
it for years and years and years.

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00:10:07,665 --> 00:10:11,655
And Leah, was there one particular
incident that before you woke up

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00:10:11,655 --> 00:10:14,205
that morning, was there something
that led to that point that you

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00:10:14,205 --> 00:10:16,305
went, oh, okay, I've actually got.

191
00:10:16,645 --> 00:10:19,105
A fear of death, and I
probably need to think

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00:10:19,105 --> 00:10:19,915
more about this.

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00:10:20,064 --> 00:10:23,814
There were lots of incidents and it
sort of built up like, I guess one

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00:10:23,814 --> 00:10:26,185
turning point that occurs to me.

195
00:10:26,545 --> 00:10:31,645
I had a lovely old elderly patient called
Merv, and you know, he lived on his own.

196
00:10:31,645 --> 00:10:34,944
I think his neighbor sort of looked
into, you know, throw some food

197
00:10:34,944 --> 00:10:36,834
at him occasionally he had a lamb.

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00:10:37,229 --> 00:10:40,770
Down the back of the garden and
lots of stray animals around.

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00:10:41,130 --> 00:10:46,199
And I walked in to do a home visit and
he was poking some baked beans around

200
00:10:46,199 --> 00:10:50,955
a plate and I. Got bitten by his duck.

201
00:10:52,215 --> 00:10:52,425
Wow.

202
00:10:52,425 --> 00:10:53,925
That really is a house call, isn't it?

203
00:10:53,925 --> 00:10:55,395
The duck never liked me.

204
00:10:55,545 --> 00:10:59,925
The duck was onto me because I'd
sort of, oh, Dolly hockey sticks.

205
00:10:59,925 --> 00:11:01,035
Hi Erv, how are you?

206
00:11:01,035 --> 00:11:01,816
La la la.

207
00:11:01,965 --> 00:11:02,295
Yeah.

208
00:11:02,415 --> 00:11:07,065
And then I said one day, I don't
know why I, I can't remember what

209
00:11:07,065 --> 00:11:08,595
prompted it, but I said to him.

210
00:11:09,060 --> 00:11:09,360
Move.

211
00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:10,620
Do you ever think about dying?

212
00:11:10,980 --> 00:11:13,980
And he said to, because I was thinking
like, what's gonna happen with you?

213
00:11:13,980 --> 00:11:15,570
Like no one's looking after you.

214
00:11:15,570 --> 00:11:15,690
Yeah.

215
00:11:16,050 --> 00:11:19,200
And he said to me, just very laconic.

216
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:19,410
And he goes.

217
00:11:20,265 --> 00:11:20,985
Nah, doc.

218
00:11:21,225 --> 00:11:21,705
Nah.

219
00:11:22,725 --> 00:11:26,145
If I ever thought about dying,
I'd die a thousand deaths a day.

220
00:11:26,415 --> 00:11:29,535
It was in that whole sort of
phase of me thinking, I've just

221
00:11:29,535 --> 00:11:33,675
gotta get my act together, not
only for me, but for my patients.

222
00:11:33,735 --> 00:11:36,915
Because I think if you're not
comfortable talking about dying in

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00:11:36,915 --> 00:11:39,495
my profession, let alone in society.

224
00:11:39,790 --> 00:11:42,219
Then I think, you know, it's not good.

225
00:11:43,780 --> 00:11:46,839
And Leah, had you had
children at that stage?

226
00:11:47,050 --> 00:11:48,400
Yeah, I had three children.

227
00:11:49,180 --> 00:11:49,390
Yeah.

228
00:11:49,390 --> 00:11:54,189
I mean, if you stick me on an analyst's
couch and you know, ask me why I was

229
00:11:54,189 --> 00:11:56,530
scared of death, it's pretty damn obvious.

230
00:11:56,530 --> 00:12:01,089
I grew up, my mother was wonderful,
gorgeous, loving mother, but you

231
00:12:01,089 --> 00:12:04,959
know, she was a sole survivor at
21 of Auschwitz and Bergen Belsen.

232
00:12:05,349 --> 00:12:08,050
So I had absolute no family on that side.

233
00:12:08,050 --> 00:12:08,349
And.

234
00:12:08,955 --> 00:12:10,995
I know she talked to me about it.

235
00:12:11,025 --> 00:12:12,675
She died when I was 21.

236
00:12:13,035 --> 00:12:18,825
She took an overdose and so I spent a
lot of my youth, as we all do, running

237
00:12:18,825 --> 00:12:23,685
away from, I then had to spend the rest
of my adult life trying to recapture.

238
00:12:23,955 --> 00:12:29,745
And so I think for me, death was
scary because it was traumatic death

239
00:12:29,745 --> 00:12:32,745
that I, you know, Osmos as a child.

240
00:12:32,925 --> 00:12:35,655
And then as a 21-year-old,
my mother dying also.

241
00:12:35,655 --> 00:12:36,615
So I think that.

242
00:12:37,275 --> 00:12:40,785
You know, you don't have to analyze
me very deeply to understand.

243
00:12:41,445 --> 00:12:45,945
Why I was terrified of all of
that, but going on this journey,

244
00:12:46,065 --> 00:12:50,235
really, I think it's called a
joyful, a joyful book about death.

245
00:12:50,265 --> 00:12:51,045
That's back to front.

246
00:12:51,045 --> 00:12:51,225
But

247
00:12:52,230 --> 00:12:52,520
yeah,

248
00:12:52,635 --> 00:12:53,505
I I love that.

249
00:12:53,505 --> 00:12:53,565
Yeah.

250
00:12:53,565 --> 00:12:54,855
With the butterflies on it.

251
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,365
I know I did have a giggle when
I read that and I thought, oh,

252
00:12:58,365 --> 00:12:59,775
well this is gonna be a good read.

253
00:13:00,785 --> 00:13:04,265
Because I thought, you know, my friends
and family thought, oh God, really?

254
00:13:04,265 --> 00:13:06,455
Leah, you know, lighten up.

255
00:13:06,875 --> 00:13:09,125
And I thought, no, I've got to do this.

256
00:13:09,125 --> 00:13:12,395
And I, I'd never been to my
parents since my parents died.

257
00:13:12,395 --> 00:13:14,225
I'd never been back to the cemetery.

258
00:13:14,525 --> 00:13:15,995
So that was my first trip.

259
00:13:15,995 --> 00:13:20,094
You know, I. Go back and I'm sounding
very morbid, but I No, no, no, it's not.

260
00:13:20,214 --> 00:13:22,645
I went and spoke to, you know,
I live around the corner from a

261
00:13:22,645 --> 00:13:24,295
cemetery and I'd never been there.

262
00:13:24,295 --> 00:13:27,444
And so I started walking around there
and I found Sir John Monash's grave.

263
00:13:27,444 --> 00:13:32,125
And you know, I spoke to the grave
diggers there and the crematorium

264
00:13:32,484 --> 00:13:33,474
guy that runs the Cremator.

265
00:13:33,775 --> 00:13:36,474
It was, they were actually
such uplifting human beings.

266
00:13:36,474 --> 00:13:39,025
It was really quite fun in a strange way.

267
00:13:39,025 --> 00:13:43,410
And then I was starting to read a
lot about death and I. Thought, oh,

268
00:13:43,410 --> 00:13:44,910
this is gonna be really depressing.

269
00:13:44,970 --> 00:13:48,960
But then I read about a place that
had opened not long before called the

270
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:53,250
Morbid Anatomy Museum in New York, and
I thought, yeah, that sounds amazing.

271
00:13:53,700 --> 00:13:56,910
I've got my inner goth girl
on middle aged goth girl.

272
00:13:57,330 --> 00:13:57,600
Yeah.

273
00:13:57,660 --> 00:14:00,855
And I applied, I said, would
you like a writer in residence?

274
00:14:01,260 --> 00:14:02,520
And they were like, yeah.

275
00:14:03,300 --> 00:14:04,950
And I went over there for a month.

276
00:14:04,965 --> 00:14:09,555
And I got to sit in this museum that was
just, I mean, it's not there anymore.

277
00:14:09,555 --> 00:14:11,625
I think it, it closed up about a year ago.

278
00:14:12,435 --> 00:14:13,875
It was mad.

279
00:14:14,115 --> 00:14:17,055
They had taxidermy classes and workshops.

280
00:14:17,625 --> 00:14:22,155
You know, I was, my desk was near
a, a two-headed duck under glass.

281
00:14:22,365 --> 00:14:26,595
They had victoriana of, you know, the
hair, the memorials of people's death.

282
00:14:26,745 --> 00:14:26,955
Yeah.

283
00:14:26,955 --> 00:14:31,280
At the same time, there was a. Exhibition
of Victorian mourning on at the Met.

284
00:14:31,550 --> 00:14:36,260
So it was just coming at me from all
angles, but it was actually really fun

285
00:14:36,439 --> 00:14:41,750
and I got to sort of, I guess, desensitize
myself in a way to exposing myself to the

286
00:14:41,750 --> 00:14:44,569
idea of death in a kind of strange way.

287
00:14:44,569 --> 00:14:47,869
And, and yeah, and speaking to a lot
of people about their experiences.

288
00:14:47,869 --> 00:14:49,609
So the whole project.

289
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:54,470
I guess it was sort of a self-help
book for me, but I was surprised at

290
00:14:54,620 --> 00:14:57,860
how joyful it actually became, because
the one thing that, I mean, this is

291
00:14:57,860 --> 00:15:01,670
a bit cliche, but the one thing that
happens when you kind of think about

292
00:15:01,670 --> 00:15:06,680
death and speak about death is that life
becomes all that much more precious.

293
00:15:07,050 --> 00:15:09,780
Otherwise, I think we go
through life thinking, oh, well,

294
00:15:09,780 --> 00:15:11,035
you know, we've got forever.

295
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:11,970
Well, you haven't,

296
00:15:12,630 --> 00:15:15,660
I totally agree with you on so
many things that you're saying.

297
00:15:15,690 --> 00:15:20,130
Obviously I stumbled into this
world that I'm now involved

298
00:15:20,130 --> 00:15:22,741
with, and for me it was about.

299
00:15:23,390 --> 00:15:27,170
Education and making sure that there
was a platform for people to learn

300
00:15:27,170 --> 00:15:30,350
about the myriad of choices and options.

301
00:15:30,350 --> 00:15:35,000
And the one thing with all of the,
and very similar to you, the one thing

302
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:39,740
that I've found is that it has taught
me more about life than what it has.

303
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,969
Actually about death because death
is really just another part of the

304
00:15:43,969 --> 00:15:49,189
life cycle, and it does all talk
about how we live and what we value.

305
00:15:49,250 --> 00:15:53,930
And so it really is also, when
we think about it, it's about

306
00:15:53,930 --> 00:15:55,219
our history and who we're.

307
00:15:55,475 --> 00:16:00,095
Come from and our heritage
and it is all associated with

308
00:16:00,455 --> 00:16:02,074
people who have passed and died.

309
00:16:02,194 --> 00:16:02,615
Absolutely.

310
00:16:02,615 --> 00:16:04,835
I mean, my mother's sort of, you
know, sitting in the corner of

311
00:16:04,835 --> 00:16:06,425
the room here, chain smoking.

312
00:16:06,755 --> 00:16:07,550
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

313
00:16:07,805 --> 00:16:09,305
You know, what are you doing?

314
00:16:09,425 --> 00:16:10,925
Talking about all this stuff, you know?

315
00:16:10,925 --> 00:16:11,885
You should have been a lawyer.

316
00:16:12,425 --> 00:16:12,875
Yeah.

317
00:16:12,875 --> 00:16:15,875
I could still, and she's been dead
for years and this, but I still.

318
00:16:17,055 --> 00:16:19,244
Not in a woo woo way, but she's present.

319
00:16:19,244 --> 00:16:22,844
I, she's in me, I hear her
voice, I hear her wisdom.

320
00:16:23,204 --> 00:16:24,405
You know, I see her smoking.

321
00:16:24,405 --> 00:16:25,275
I wanna stop that.

322
00:16:25,425 --> 00:16:25,875
Yeah.

323
00:16:25,875 --> 00:16:26,234
Yep.

324
00:16:26,380 --> 00:16:31,635
The dead, I think, are kind of present
for me all the time in whispers, and

325
00:16:31,635 --> 00:16:35,055
I don't believe in ghosts and I'm
not religious, nothing like that.

326
00:16:35,114 --> 00:16:38,265
I don't mean it in a spooky way, but
I think, you know, their heritage

327
00:16:38,265 --> 00:16:41,714
and what we've learned from them and
what they've imbued in us is with us.

328
00:16:41,714 --> 00:16:42,224
And so.

329
00:16:42,295 --> 00:16:44,964
Not thinking about them, I
think is not honoring them.

330
00:16:44,964 --> 00:16:45,535
Also,

331
00:16:45,714 --> 00:16:49,314
it's the stories that we tell
and the stories that we remember.

332
00:16:49,525 --> 00:16:54,895
Like I think of my father, how I
am where I am today, and I thought

333
00:16:54,985 --> 00:16:58,255
that death and having a will and
things like that were normal.

334
00:16:58,255 --> 00:17:01,525
And it wasn't until I embarked on this
process that I realized not everyone

335
00:17:01,525 --> 00:17:05,724
has that sort of administration or
that paperwork in place, you know?

336
00:17:05,784 --> 00:17:07,615
But for me it was normal because.

337
00:17:07,900 --> 00:17:09,940
You know, he was a clerk of courts.

338
00:17:09,940 --> 00:17:12,340
He worked in the coroner's
court, so it was just a standard

339
00:17:12,340 --> 00:17:13,870
thing that we all grew up with.

340
00:17:13,870 --> 00:17:15,760
That was just a normal, natural thing.

341
00:17:15,975 --> 00:17:19,900
But you know, you do, I think, grow
up, especially during your formative

342
00:17:19,900 --> 00:17:25,540
years of constantly and especially I
think it, it was when I had my son,

343
00:17:25,810 --> 00:17:29,560
that you also have those little, you
know, devils and angels and those family

344
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:31,240
members on your shoulders that actually.

345
00:17:32,030 --> 00:17:34,340
I like your mom sitting
there, smoking in the corner

346
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:37,490
telling you different

347
00:17:37,490 --> 00:17:37,879
pieces

348
00:17:37,879 --> 00:17:38,000
of

349
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:38,480
advice.

350
00:17:38,629 --> 00:17:39,290
So, yeah.

351
00:17:39,530 --> 00:17:43,010
But you know, one of my clients said
to me that, you know, we were talking

352
00:17:43,010 --> 00:17:46,910
about she'd lost her husband and we were
talking about the stages of grief and

353
00:17:46,910 --> 00:17:49,461
I was sort of, you know, kind of quite
in crude Ross and blah, blah, blah.

354
00:17:49,790 --> 00:17:52,520
And she goes, Lee, you've
missed the first stage of grief.

355
00:17:52,970 --> 00:17:53,780
And I'm, what?

356
00:17:53,810 --> 00:17:54,200
What?

357
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:55,070
Hang on, I've written the book.

358
00:17:55,070 --> 00:17:55,670
What are you talking about?

359
00:17:56,510 --> 00:17:56,930
And she goes.

360
00:17:57,389 --> 00:18:00,520
It's admin, it's, it's exactly admin.

361
00:18:00,675 --> 00:18:04,875
And nobody, I was so delighted to
see what you've been working on.

362
00:18:04,875 --> 00:18:06,585
Nobody guides you.

363
00:18:06,585 --> 00:18:10,215
I mean, there's guides to sex and there's
guides to accounting and there's God, but

364
00:18:10,215 --> 00:18:14,475
there's nothing that guides you through
the process, that administrative process

365
00:18:14,475 --> 00:18:18,375
that hits you straight in the face,
the minute someone close to you dies.

366
00:18:18,435 --> 00:18:22,784
And it's horrific sometimes and
people don't prepare for it.

367
00:18:23,534 --> 00:18:26,115
You know, there's, I've got a lot
of families where you just can't.

368
00:18:26,415 --> 00:18:30,525
Talk about death or dying or what
if for, you know, would you think

369
00:18:30,525 --> 00:18:31,725
of putting in advanced care?

370
00:18:31,785 --> 00:18:34,215
They just will not talk about it.

371
00:18:34,215 --> 00:18:36,195
So you have to tread very gently.

372
00:18:36,465 --> 00:18:38,865
But I think society's a
lot to blame for that too.

373
00:18:38,865 --> 00:18:41,745
We're a death denial,
death denying society.

374
00:18:41,745 --> 00:18:41,805
I.

375
00:18:41,980 --> 00:18:46,090
And as you mentioned in your book,
it's that medicalization of death

376
00:18:46,270 --> 00:18:49,000
that it no longer occurs in the home.

377
00:18:49,270 --> 00:18:52,600
You know, it's sort of outsourced
because generally we are living

378
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,010
longer, so we're moving to
residential care, aged care facilities

379
00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:58,930
out of sight outta mind kind of thing.

380
00:18:58,935 --> 00:18:59,649
Yeah, yeah.

381
00:18:59,710 --> 00:19:02,530
Whereas, you know, they used to be in the
middle of the living room with everyone.

382
00:19:02,545 --> 00:19:03,505
Sitting the vigil.

383
00:19:03,595 --> 00:19:03,925
Yeah,

384
00:19:03,985 --> 00:19:04,645
yeah, yeah.

385
00:19:04,645 --> 00:19:09,025
And the whole reason why the front
room was called parlor in an old home

386
00:19:09,025 --> 00:19:12,685
was it was where you laid out your
debt and people would pay respects.

387
00:19:12,830 --> 00:19:16,315
I think that I saw some of the houses,
the older Victorian houses were built with

388
00:19:16,315 --> 00:19:18,865
the little kind of alcove for the coffin.

389
00:19:19,285 --> 00:19:21,385
So just walk through some of
the houses, you'll see where

390
00:19:21,385 --> 00:19:22,975
they used to put the coffins and

391
00:19:22,975 --> 00:19:23,635
yeah.

392
00:19:24,175 --> 00:19:24,865
And so.

393
00:19:25,260 --> 00:19:30,510
With writing this book, and I'll
move on to how it has become a

394
00:19:30,510 --> 00:19:34,860
theme in your writing across your
novels and into your poetry as well.

395
00:19:34,860 --> 00:19:39,420
But with the research that you did
with this book, how does death sit with

396
00:19:39,420 --> 00:19:44,040
you now and how do you think that has
influenced how you are as a physician?

397
00:19:44,370 --> 00:19:45,180
Oh gosh.

398
00:19:45,450 --> 00:19:48,930
You know, it's 10 years on, I think,
since I wrote the book, or thereabouts.

399
00:19:48,930 --> 00:19:50,280
Yeah, so I've gotten older.

400
00:19:50,715 --> 00:19:54,585
I certainly, after the writing of
the book, felt much more at peace.

401
00:19:54,735 --> 00:19:55,815
Unable to talk.

402
00:19:55,845 --> 00:20:00,735
You know, I did the circuit talking about
the book a lot, and I think for me, you

403
00:20:00,735 --> 00:20:05,355
know, by ignoring death, I'd been ignoring
life in a way because it was hanging over

404
00:20:05,355 --> 00:20:07,545
me the whole time as this dreadful fear.

405
00:20:07,545 --> 00:20:09,120
I. And I think that lifted.

406
00:20:09,270 --> 00:20:13,620
So I think it made me realize how
much more precious our days are and

407
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,889
you know, yeah, I'll still lie on the
couch and watch Netflix for forever

408
00:20:16,889 --> 00:20:18,510
and eat chips, but I could do that.

409
00:20:18,570 --> 00:20:19,379
Like that's fun.

410
00:20:19,379 --> 00:20:19,439
Yeah.

411
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:20,879
I get to choose now.

412
00:20:21,149 --> 00:20:21,689
Yeah.

413
00:20:21,780 --> 00:20:24,780
So I think it's made me a
lot calmer about things.

414
00:20:25,185 --> 00:20:28,335
And, you know, it forced me
to get my paperwork in place.

415
00:20:28,335 --> 00:20:32,505
I don't want my kids to go through
what I had to go through and that 21

416
00:20:32,505 --> 00:20:34,185
sorting through all my mother's stuff.

417
00:20:34,185 --> 00:20:38,205
And uh, so, you know, I did a bit of
Swedish death cleaning and still can't

418
00:20:38,205 --> 00:20:39,735
throw out my children's drawings.

419
00:20:39,735 --> 00:20:41,055
Don't they hate me for it?

420
00:20:42,195 --> 00:20:46,095
I view that as their legacy, that
they have to actually organize

421
00:20:46,095 --> 00:20:50,085
at some stage in a big plastic
box that I just give back to him.

422
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:52,910
That's what I'm going to do.

423
00:20:53,450 --> 00:20:53,720
Yeah.

424
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:59,060
So I think for me it, it's just
made me far more deliberate in

425
00:20:59,060 --> 00:21:04,520
my choices of what I want to do
and less BS in my life possibly.

426
00:21:04,610 --> 00:21:04,850
Yeah.

427
00:21:05,210 --> 00:21:05,390
Yeah.

428
00:21:05,450 --> 00:21:09,945
And I've just really honed, I.
Yeah, what is it that lights me

429
00:21:09,945 --> 00:21:13,845
up and how can I contribute to
the world and to other people?

430
00:21:14,115 --> 00:21:18,315
Sounds all a bit sappy, but I mean
it genuinely, I think I've stopped

431
00:21:18,315 --> 00:21:20,115
just skating over things and just,

432
00:21:20,235 --> 00:21:21,135
oh yeah, whatever.

433
00:21:21,524 --> 00:21:28,455
It totally makes sense, Leah, and the
theme of death is certainly a very strong

434
00:21:28,485 --> 00:21:30,735
one throughout all of your writing.

435
00:21:31,245 --> 00:21:37,395
But what I find really interesting is
the way in which you also have integrated

436
00:21:37,395 --> 00:21:43,125
history, like a lot of history in your
novels, but it's not that I'm exhausted

437
00:21:43,125 --> 00:21:45,344
with statistics or anything like that.

438
00:21:45,375 --> 00:21:47,834
You've actually embedded
it into your storytelling.

439
00:21:47,955 --> 00:21:49,875
I feel like I'm part of history.

440
00:21:50,235 --> 00:21:53,115
As I'm reading it, it's a very
beautiful thing that you've done.

441
00:21:53,115 --> 00:21:57,405
Can you talk me through your process and
how you've perhaps done that over the

442
00:21:57,405 --> 00:21:59,415
series of novels that you've written?

443
00:21:59,534 --> 00:21:59,655
I

444
00:21:59,655 --> 00:22:02,264
think, you know, I don't think it
was anything I was really aware of.

445
00:22:02,264 --> 00:22:06,675
So Anne Michaels, who's one of my favorite
authors, said, you know, one book washes

446
00:22:06,675 --> 00:22:10,095
up on the shore of the next, and I
think I can see the sort of evolution.

447
00:22:10,095 --> 00:22:13,905
I've written 14 books so I can
see, you know, the influences

448
00:22:13,905 --> 00:22:14,504
of one over the other.

449
00:22:14,504 --> 00:22:16,695
And I've always been a poet
at heart since grade three.

450
00:22:16,875 --> 00:22:18,254
Yeah, it's more.

451
00:22:18,505 --> 00:22:23,095
I guess the fascination with history
comes from the fact that I, growing

452
00:22:23,095 --> 00:22:28,015
up, I didn't have any artifacts, any,
anything from my mother's family.

453
00:22:28,695 --> 00:22:33,015
So I remember going to a junk shop and
buying myself an old marker Z watch

454
00:22:33,015 --> 00:22:36,315
and wearing it around and saying,
oh, this is my grandmother's watch.

455
00:22:36,375 --> 00:22:36,975
Well, it wasn't.

456
00:22:36,975 --> 00:22:40,365
I lied, but it was more that,
you know, I didn't have any

457
00:22:40,365 --> 00:22:42,195
heirlooms or any, anything.

458
00:22:42,195 --> 00:22:42,255
Yeah.

459
00:22:42,375 --> 00:22:43,425
Not even a thimble.

460
00:22:43,845 --> 00:22:46,065
I didn't have photos of
what they looked like.

461
00:22:46,395 --> 00:22:50,175
And also then, because my mother
died when I was young, I know

462
00:22:50,175 --> 00:22:53,715
she had spoken to me about her
experiences and you know, I listened

463
00:22:53,715 --> 00:22:56,385
with half an ear and when she died.

464
00:22:56,790 --> 00:22:59,280
I thought, well, she's had
such an incredible life.

465
00:22:59,370 --> 00:23:01,200
I want to write her story.

466
00:23:01,890 --> 00:23:05,220
And so I took off, you know, a
week off uni and filled up the

467
00:23:05,220 --> 00:23:08,040
AirPod and got exercise books and
pens and thought I'm gonna start

468
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:09,330
writing the book about my mother.

469
00:23:10,170 --> 00:23:11,580
And got three pages out.

470
00:23:11,580 --> 00:23:14,610
And I hadn't been listening, you
know, I was an Aussie chick and

471
00:23:14,610 --> 00:23:16,350
I wanted to be cool and mm-hmm.

472
00:23:16,535 --> 00:23:19,170
Into boys and didn't care about that.

473
00:23:19,574 --> 00:23:23,715
You know, my mother's history, so that
was really quite depressing for me.

474
00:23:23,715 --> 00:23:28,635
And I think I circled the next sort of
10 to almost 20 years of trying to write

475
00:23:28,635 --> 00:23:32,415
the waiting Room, which is my first
novel because, you know, my mother's

476
00:23:32,415 --> 00:23:35,175
story took up three pages on the page.

477
00:23:35,324 --> 00:23:36,314
That's all I knew.

478
00:23:36,584 --> 00:23:37,844
And there was no one to ask.

479
00:23:38,265 --> 00:23:40,935
Mm. You know, I've subsequently
pieced some stuff together.

480
00:23:40,935 --> 00:23:44,600
I married a genealogist and he's
found that's one way to do it.

481
00:23:46,545 --> 00:23:48,135
That's like cheating
on the test, isn't it?

482
00:23:48,310 --> 00:23:48,840
It's a bit,

483
00:23:50,895 --> 00:23:56,115
but even so, you know, he's found two
third cousins that we didn't know existed.

484
00:23:56,115 --> 00:23:56,175
Yeah.

485
00:23:56,475 --> 00:23:59,655
So what I had to do is what
if this was my mother's story?

486
00:23:59,655 --> 00:24:04,425
And so I took snippets of what I did
know and woves a story around that.

487
00:24:04,425 --> 00:24:06,075
So I know what's real in the book.

488
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,810
But I've had to, what if this
had happened to my mother,

489
00:24:09,810 --> 00:24:10,830
and what if she'd been there?

490
00:24:10,830 --> 00:24:15,090
And so in order to do that, I had to then
literally turn around and face my demons.

491
00:24:15,090 --> 00:24:19,949
So I had to start reading about the
Holocaust and the war, and the atrocities

492
00:24:19,949 --> 00:24:25,770
committed, and the book was set in
Haifa at the time of the Interfa.

493
00:24:25,770 --> 00:24:29,879
So I had to then turn
around and look at that.

494
00:24:30,270 --> 00:24:34,080
Fraught history, which we are seeing,
you know, hideous results of now.

495
00:24:34,170 --> 00:24:37,620
And that's where that kind
of weaving all that together.

496
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:38,340
Yeah.

497
00:24:38,340 --> 00:24:41,640
And in order to write something
that's based in history, you

498
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,530
really need to know a lot.

499
00:24:43,530 --> 00:24:46,920
So I had to know what were they eating
and what did the streets smell like?

500
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:48,330
And so I just.

501
00:24:48,689 --> 00:24:50,790
Yeah, a lot of it was experiential.

502
00:24:50,790 --> 00:24:54,210
I'd go to the places or I'd read
a lot or I'd interview people.

503
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,290
But I think when you're writing
fiction, you don't, I mean, place is

504
00:24:58,290 --> 00:25:02,189
a character in fiction, but I think
you really need to make it incidental

505
00:25:02,189 --> 00:25:06,165
so that the reader doesn't really
even, I. It's not like an info dump.

506
00:25:06,794 --> 00:25:09,165
Mm. You have to have that as part
of, you know, secondary to your

507
00:25:09,165 --> 00:25:11,114
characters and I really enjoy that.

508
00:25:11,114 --> 00:25:17,625
So then, you know, in that book I'd
looked at the victims of War in the

509
00:25:17,625 --> 00:25:19,695
hollow Bones, the ones you've just read.

510
00:25:19,695 --> 00:25:21,584
Mm. Um, which was my second novel.

511
00:25:21,945 --> 00:25:24,290
I then turned around and
thought, well, hang on a minute.

512
00:25:24,614 --> 00:25:28,905
The main people that have been
involved in most atrocities in the

513
00:25:28,905 --> 00:25:33,344
world, you know, organized atrocities,
have been scientists and doctors.

514
00:25:34,065 --> 00:25:37,665
So if I had been there at the time,
you know, if I'd been a German

515
00:25:37,665 --> 00:25:39,135
doctor, what would I have done?

516
00:25:39,764 --> 00:25:42,045
And I think I had to
confront my own morality.

517
00:25:42,045 --> 00:25:45,675
And instead of sort of just simplifying
it, saying, oh, they were just all evil.

518
00:25:45,855 --> 00:25:47,865
They weren't, they were
ordinary people like you and me.

519
00:25:47,955 --> 00:25:53,865
And so I came across this character
who was a scientist, a young German

520
00:25:53,865 --> 00:25:58,995
scientist who is a zoologist, a specialist
in Tibetan birds called Ern Schafer.

521
00:25:58,995 --> 00:26:02,325
So he's a real character and I researched.

522
00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:06,050
As much as I could about him,
because he got drawn into the third

523
00:26:06,050 --> 00:26:08,479
RA Himmler's view of the world.

524
00:26:08,479 --> 00:26:12,110
They changed the whole scientific
approach of the world and the science

525
00:26:12,110 --> 00:26:15,290
was, which is World Ice theory.

526
00:26:16,129 --> 00:26:22,280
Mm. Meaning that everything revolves
around the earth and the moon is an

527
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,510
icy moon, and it crashed into the earth
thousands of years ago and released

528
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,750
the origins of the Ian race from.

529
00:26:30,165 --> 00:26:34,275
And who bred with the, it was all
mad, but it was a scientific platform.

530
00:26:34,665 --> 00:26:39,225
And this guy, my main character, embraced
it in order to further his career.

531
00:26:39,375 --> 00:26:40,935
So he said to him like, yeah, yeah, sure.

532
00:26:40,935 --> 00:26:45,555
I'll go to Tibet and I'll look for
these, you know, traces of this theory.

533
00:26:45,645 --> 00:26:50,445
So it made me think, God, what
would I have done in that situation?

534
00:26:50,625 --> 00:26:57,285
And it was these tiny, small steps, you
know, slippery steps of amoral choices.

535
00:26:57,690 --> 00:27:00,330
Mm. That led to this evil.

536
00:27:00,570 --> 00:27:04,260
I love the way in which you
tell it because you're right.

537
00:27:04,290 --> 00:27:09,480
It's a very human story, and it's
not like they were evil and you

538
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,190
know, cloaked or anything like that.

539
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:17,850
There is a series of choices that lead to
the outcome that is now history, you know?

540
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:24,580
It was really insightful and I think that
one story that I'd love for you to perhaps

541
00:27:24,580 --> 00:27:28,300
tell is how you incorporated the Panda.

542
00:27:28,330 --> 00:27:33,760
And this is still a taxidermied panda
that you've seen, and this is a relic

543
00:27:33,820 --> 00:27:35,770
of that time and that expedition

544
00:27:35,950 --> 00:27:39,760
readers are either team Panda or team.

545
00:27:39,820 --> 00:27:41,140
What the hell was she doing?

546
00:27:42,070 --> 00:27:42,520
So.

547
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:50,370
Yeah, as Schaffer was a zoologist in
the thirties, German zoologist and

548
00:27:50,370 --> 00:27:54,540
zoology in the time, and to a certain
extent still now you need to shoot.

549
00:27:54,945 --> 00:27:55,815
What you're studying.

550
00:27:56,175 --> 00:28:01,335
So he worked in America too at the
Academy of Sciences in Washington,

551
00:28:01,575 --> 00:28:02,655
which was actually Philadelphia.

552
00:28:03,315 --> 00:28:08,085
And they were doing collaborative things
where he was providing them with specimens

553
00:28:08,565 --> 00:28:12,165
and he was one of the first people, I
think the first person was Roosevelt.

554
00:28:12,165 --> 00:28:15,945
The second person was in Schafer
to shoot a panda in the wild.

555
00:28:16,409 --> 00:28:21,629
And so he had that baby panda
cub shipped over to the States.

556
00:28:21,810 --> 00:28:24,570
And when I was researching him, I'd
come up with, you know, I'd found his

557
00:28:24,570 --> 00:28:28,560
field journals and you know, I was
having them translated and all sorts

558
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:30,000
of things, his scientific drawings.

559
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,710
And I actually on book tour for
my previous book at the States, I

560
00:28:34,740 --> 00:28:38,399
went to the museum and I asked the
librarian, have you got any of his

561
00:28:38,399 --> 00:28:40,260
archives and it shape his archives?

562
00:28:40,260 --> 00:28:40,830
And she goes, oh yeah.

563
00:28:40,830 --> 00:28:41,940
And she brought out like, you know.

564
00:28:42,175 --> 00:28:45,264
10 boxes and in it there
was a little drawing of a

565
00:28:45,264 --> 00:28:47,395
panda's tail, like a skeleton.

566
00:28:47,455 --> 00:28:49,584
And I said, oh, I've
heard he shot a panda.

567
00:28:49,584 --> 00:28:50,155
You don't know.

568
00:28:50,564 --> 00:28:52,784
You know where these bones might be.

569
00:28:52,814 --> 00:28:55,425
And she just picked up, she goes,
yeah, just a sec. She picked up

570
00:28:55,425 --> 00:29:00,495
the phone, spoke to Dave down in
the dungeon and said, just go down.

571
00:29:00,495 --> 00:29:01,274
He'll help you.

572
00:29:01,485 --> 00:29:05,354
And I went down and I met the
curator there, and he had a

573
00:29:05,354 --> 00:29:07,604
collection of all the pandas bones.

574
00:29:07,814 --> 00:29:08,264
Wow.

575
00:29:08,294 --> 00:29:10,725
You know, he just, that was
just, there was a th scene there.

576
00:29:10,729 --> 00:29:12,794
And, and then he pulled out
these drawers and there was.

577
00:29:13,505 --> 00:29:16,025
Schafer's writing with the
panda that he'd shot the bones.

578
00:29:16,145 --> 00:29:19,025
And I said, oh my God, you don't
know where the hide is, do you,

579
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:20,825
you know, was that preserved?

580
00:29:21,245 --> 00:29:24,185
And he goes, yeah, go back
up and ask the um, librarian.

581
00:29:24,185 --> 00:29:26,885
I'll give her a call and she'll
direct you back up there.

582
00:29:26,885 --> 00:29:28,955
And you know, she got
off the phone from him.

583
00:29:29,285 --> 00:29:31,325
And I, I also, where do I find the hide?

584
00:29:31,475 --> 00:29:33,155
I dunno why I wanted to find the hide.

585
00:29:33,545 --> 00:29:35,165
And she goes, well just see the exit sign.

586
00:29:35,165 --> 00:29:37,895
Just cross over the corridor there
and turn left and you'll see it.

587
00:29:38,060 --> 00:29:38,620
I thought, okay.

588
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:39,695
And I crossed.

589
00:29:40,030 --> 00:29:44,410
Corridor from the library and there
was a diorama of two adult pandas

590
00:29:44,650 --> 00:29:46,540
and a baby panda under glass.

591
00:29:46,900 --> 00:29:47,470
Huge.

592
00:29:47,740 --> 00:29:49,480
And that was my baby panda.

593
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,520
And I, everyone's gonna think I'm mad now.

594
00:29:51,580 --> 00:29:52,150
Well, you know it.

595
00:29:53,110 --> 00:29:55,000
I just, I sat down.

596
00:29:55,545 --> 00:29:56,505
And just wept.

597
00:29:56,655 --> 00:29:58,245
I was a blathering ness.

598
00:29:58,245 --> 00:30:02,475
Here was this little baby panda
that had been shot by er Schaeffer.

599
00:30:02,625 --> 00:30:05,895
I'd been reading about this so
much and here it was, you know, in

600
00:30:05,895 --> 00:30:10,305
front of me and I don't know why,
but it just got under my skin.

601
00:30:10,725 --> 00:30:11,745
Bad choice of words.

602
00:30:13,005 --> 00:30:17,295
That little panda, when I came to write
the book, demanded to have a voice.

603
00:30:17,895 --> 00:30:17,955
Yeah.

604
00:30:17,955 --> 00:30:21,945
And the book is interspersed
with the voice of a stuffed.

605
00:30:22,305 --> 00:30:28,635
Tibetan baby panda, and that's the
voice of the wild and of nature.

606
00:30:29,054 --> 00:30:31,365
Yeah, and I think it
conveys it really well.

607
00:30:31,365 --> 00:30:35,534
And look, I totally understand
where that emotion is coming from.

608
00:30:35,595 --> 00:30:40,004
Having had my time when I was working
at the Royal Botanic Gardens and having

609
00:30:40,004 --> 00:30:45,314
the privilege of actually going into
the collections area there and seeing,

610
00:30:45,825 --> 00:30:50,564
you know, specimens that were collected
at the time, a species was named by.

611
00:30:50,740 --> 00:30:55,060
That botanist and seeing species
that, you know, were, were

612
00:30:55,060 --> 00:30:56,949
taken by Sir Joseph Banks.

613
00:30:57,010 --> 00:31:02,560
And those sorts of things are really
amazing because it is a direct connection

614
00:31:02,590 --> 00:31:04,899
to history and that's what you are seeing.

615
00:31:04,899 --> 00:31:08,290
And it's a connection that normally,
and not a lot of people have

616
00:31:08,290 --> 00:31:10,209
that access because it's behind.

617
00:31:10,209 --> 00:31:13,449
Like you said, you've gotta ring
Dave to go downstairs to, you know.

618
00:31:14,290 --> 00:31:16,629
And it's in a draw that
no one gets to see.

619
00:31:16,629 --> 00:31:20,740
So it's a privilege to be
able to see that history.

620
00:31:20,770 --> 00:31:25,780
But I think for me, when I've
had that opportunity, it also is

621
00:31:25,780 --> 00:31:29,860
a direct connection to what that
history and that point in time means.

622
00:31:30,250 --> 00:31:33,790
And I think I couldn't have written
that book unless I had done.

623
00:31:34,030 --> 00:31:37,240
We're all gonna die because I
would've been so creeped out.

624
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,120
I would've listened to me on this podcast
thinking, what a weirdo, you know?

625
00:31:40,990 --> 00:31:45,219
I don't think I would have the wherewithal
to be confronting any of that stuff.

626
00:31:45,219 --> 00:31:46,870
It'd be too gruesome and too horrid.

627
00:31:46,870 --> 00:31:48,070
I still can't watch horror movies.

628
00:31:48,129 --> 00:31:53,320
So for me, touching history is very much
tied in with what we were saying with.

629
00:31:53,970 --> 00:31:54,990
Touching death.

630
00:31:55,050 --> 00:31:56,550
It's what's gone before us.

631
00:31:56,550 --> 00:31:59,940
And I think if you lose that connection
and you're just living totally in the

632
00:31:59,940 --> 00:32:04,260
present, I'm not very good at mindfulness,
then I think you've lost a lot of

633
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,670
what came before and that collective
wisdom and knowledge that we all carry.

634
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:15,450
Yeah, and also it contextualizes and puts
perspective on where we sit in that story.

635
00:32:15,450 --> 00:32:17,400
It connects us to humanity, doesn't it?

636
00:32:17,730 --> 00:32:20,310
Yeah, and we sort of live as if
you know, we're sort of on this

637
00:32:20,310 --> 00:32:25,080
island that's not connected to
anything, the future or the past.

638
00:32:25,350 --> 00:32:28,110
We're just living in the
moment and you know, living.

639
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,210
A good life or whatever we do.

640
00:32:30,750 --> 00:32:30,840
Yeah.

641
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,255
And I think it's just, it's so
narrow and it, as I said, you know,

642
00:32:34,260 --> 00:32:35,940
I call it tunnel vision of the soul.

643
00:32:35,940 --> 00:32:38,070
I think you need, it's not nuanced.

644
00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:41,340
You need to look outside and you need
to look to the sides and backwards

645
00:32:41,340 --> 00:32:45,390
and in front of you, whether that's,
you know, history or you know

646
00:32:45,900 --> 00:32:47,460
what's happening with the planet or.

647
00:32:48,060 --> 00:32:48,930
In all ways.

648
00:32:49,110 --> 00:32:53,490
So for me, in we're all
gonna die, I really explored

649
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,260
anything that came up for me.

650
00:32:55,260 --> 00:32:57,600
Like, you know, I went and
spoke to Daredevils, like what

651
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,260
is it that makes people flirt
with death and be fine with it?

652
00:33:01,650 --> 00:33:06,000
I went and spoke to kids
who were in oncology wards.

653
00:33:06,345 --> 00:33:09,945
Or with rare diseases and
what their attitudes were.

654
00:33:10,215 --> 00:33:12,945
I spoke to people who'd
had near death experiences.

655
00:33:12,945 --> 00:33:18,105
I just, you know, funeral directors,
death doers, people who suffered from

656
00:33:18,705 --> 00:33:21,345
horrific health, anxiety and death.

657
00:33:21,345 --> 00:33:23,895
Anxiety, far worse than what I had.

658
00:33:24,075 --> 00:33:25,335
And for me, I think.

659
00:33:25,860 --> 00:33:30,060
Just exposing myself to all
of that helped ground me in

660
00:33:30,060 --> 00:33:30,540
life.

661
00:33:30,540 --> 00:33:35,520
And I'd like to just raise that comment
that when you were talking about, when

662
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:40,500
you went to write down your mother's story
and you only got to three pages, and so

663
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,629
what age were you at that sort of time?

664
00:33:43,199 --> 00:33:44,250
21. 21? Yeah.

665
00:33:44,250 --> 00:33:49,110
So I think if anyone had to write
the story, perhaps of their family

666
00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:51,689
or their parents at the age of 21.

667
00:33:52,050 --> 00:33:56,340
I don't think anyone would get
past really three pages because

668
00:33:56,610 --> 00:34:02,670
at what point in time do you feel
that you wanted to look forward?

669
00:34:02,670 --> 00:34:05,370
Like how many years was it
before you actually started

670
00:34:05,430 --> 00:34:06,629
looking at the waiting room?

671
00:34:06,870 --> 00:34:10,320
Gosh, again, it was a
sort of an evolution.

672
00:34:10,739 --> 00:34:13,889
Mm. I think probably
kind of towards my late.

673
00:34:14,745 --> 00:34:18,765
Twenties and I'd been living with
a fellow who got cancer and you

674
00:34:18,765 --> 00:34:22,035
know, he died quite young, I think.

675
00:34:22,095 --> 00:34:26,265
And when I came back that kind of line
in the sand with that child who I had

676
00:34:26,265 --> 00:34:30,285
to give the lump puncture to, I think
that's when I started looking back

677
00:34:30,315 --> 00:34:32,145
and that's when the poetry came out.

678
00:34:32,145 --> 00:34:36,139
I. I think the rawness of those, of
that language spilled out onto the page.

679
00:34:36,139 --> 00:34:39,739
It was my heart just spilling
out and I was grieving.

680
00:34:39,889 --> 00:34:42,290
I think I'd put grieving
on hold for a long time.

681
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,000
And do you think that only comes with more
lived experience, that you can actually

682
00:34:47,179 --> 00:34:51,319
perhaps appreciate your place in life
and how it connects with other people?

683
00:34:51,649 --> 00:34:51,799
I

684
00:34:51,799 --> 00:34:52,009
think

685
00:34:52,009 --> 00:34:54,560
there's an aspect to that and yeah.

686
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,379
You know who wants to be thinking
about it when you're young?

687
00:34:57,379 --> 00:34:57,440
Yeah.

688
00:34:57,890 --> 00:35:02,400
But I. Catherine, whether
it's also societal.

689
00:35:03,390 --> 00:35:06,300
And you know, that we
sense some mortality.

690
00:35:06,540 --> 00:35:08,760
You can look at, you know,
I'm very big into language.

691
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,050
You look at language and you
know, I still can't abide it.

692
00:35:13,050 --> 00:35:15,810
When people say, oh, she passed what?

693
00:35:15,810 --> 00:35:18,210
She passed when, what did
she, where did she pass?

694
00:35:18,810 --> 00:35:21,510
You know, he's pushing up daisies.

695
00:35:21,540 --> 00:35:23,310
She's no long, we've lost her.

696
00:35:23,370 --> 00:35:24,150
Where did we lose her?

697
00:35:24,510 --> 00:35:24,930
Where'd she go?

698
00:35:26,255 --> 00:35:28,350
Yes, she died.

699
00:35:28,649 --> 00:35:29,520
That is the word.

700
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,920
She died and we can't even use it.

701
00:35:32,009 --> 00:35:35,430
And so I wonder whether we actually,
and I know a lot's been written about

702
00:35:35,430 --> 00:35:38,609
this, but whether we sort of steal
that permission from our children to

703
00:35:38,609 --> 00:35:40,440
actually think and talk about death.

704
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:45,960
You know, you look at a little kid and
they, you know, they'll see a bug dying

705
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:47,730
or whatever, they don't get freaked.

706
00:35:47,759 --> 00:35:48,720
It's just natural.

707
00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:52,109
I mean, they'll be sad if their dog dies
of that, but it's just, it hasn't got all

708
00:35:52,109 --> 00:35:54,720
those layers on it that we add as adults.

709
00:35:55,410 --> 00:35:56,460
Mm. So I wonder whether.

710
00:35:56,765 --> 00:36:01,475
Society was more open to
discussing death in a healthy way.

711
00:36:01,535 --> 00:36:04,835
Whether we would have to put all
that on hold or it would just

712
00:36:04,835 --> 00:36:06,545
be a sort of a natural process.

713
00:36:06,545 --> 00:36:09,515
You know, children aren't brought
to funerals a lot of the time,

714
00:36:09,665 --> 00:36:12,694
but you look back not that
long ago, and they were there.

715
00:36:13,279 --> 00:36:13,640
Yep.

716
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,330
Well, when you think the nursery
rhyme, you know, ringer Ringer, Rosie

717
00:36:17,330 --> 00:36:21,290
was for children to understand, you
know, the, the black death and a

718
00:36:21,290 --> 00:36:23,150
way of, you know, dealing with that.

719
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:23,420
Yeah.

720
00:36:23,420 --> 00:36:27,170
So children have always been around death.

721
00:36:27,765 --> 00:36:33,135
I had the privilege of speaking with
Lionheart Camp for kids and you know,

722
00:36:33,135 --> 00:36:37,785
they've done some great work with
Lauren Breen and her understanding

723
00:36:37,845 --> 00:36:40,275
of grief and how children process it.

724
00:36:40,335 --> 00:36:45,375
And it seems to be that it, you know,
they're pretty upfront and they know

725
00:36:45,765 --> 00:36:49,095
a lot, you know, a lot more and have
less filters than what the adults do.

726
00:36:49,305 --> 00:36:50,115
Absolutely.

727
00:36:50,115 --> 00:36:51,465
And I see it over and over again.

728
00:36:51,465 --> 00:36:52,365
I actually wrote.

729
00:36:52,485 --> 00:36:56,895
One of the books I wrote soon after
was with the Damani family who'd had

730
00:36:56,895 --> 00:37:01,215
a little child called Massimo, who
was born with a rare genetic disorder.

731
00:37:01,395 --> 00:37:05,325
Long story, I won't go into it, but
having the privilege, I wrote it with

732
00:37:05,325 --> 00:37:09,765
them and having the privilege to be part
of that family and see what, how that

733
00:37:09,765 --> 00:37:12,690
family dealt with this little child's.

734
00:37:13,620 --> 00:37:16,140
Very debilitating, a
very progressive illness.

735
00:37:16,140 --> 00:37:18,390
He died when he was 10, but
they were extraordinary.

736
00:37:18,390 --> 00:37:24,690
They, they were the ones behind getting
genomes map, DNA, maps for rare diseases

737
00:37:24,690 --> 00:37:29,250
for children that's now being used
in every neonatal unit in the world.

738
00:37:29,250 --> 00:37:33,480
In those days, they didn't know
what exactly the illness was,

739
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,110
and Steven was an it geek and
he just, he said, it's numbers.

740
00:37:37,110 --> 00:37:37,920
It's a numbers game.

741
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,690
Lee, you gotta get my DNA, my.

742
00:37:40,330 --> 00:37:44,109
Wife's DNA and just cross out,
you know, what doesn't match.

743
00:37:44,290 --> 00:37:48,520
And in those days, you know, it was to
the moon and back a a billion times.

744
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:49,299
But he did it.

745
00:37:49,450 --> 00:37:52,540
And he worked with a
group of fantastic people.

746
00:37:52,779 --> 00:37:56,410
But just to see the way, you know,
Massimo's brothers dealt with it.

747
00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:59,710
It was just humbling is the word.

748
00:38:00,190 --> 00:38:01,029
I was really honored.

749
00:38:01,569 --> 00:38:06,040
And what did you see while you
were working with the family that.

750
00:38:06,825 --> 00:38:11,985
You think would perhaps be a good example
for other people who have children or

751
00:38:11,985 --> 00:38:13,425
are going through something like this?

752
00:38:13,425 --> 00:38:15,255
What can we learn from them did you think?

753
00:38:16,635 --> 00:38:21,765
Honesty, I think, you know, obviously
it has to be couched in the right terms,

754
00:38:21,765 --> 00:38:27,105
but I think to undo what I did when I was
a young doctor and Joshua turned around

755
00:38:27,105 --> 00:38:28,815
to me and said, is this going to hurt?

756
00:38:28,995 --> 00:38:31,185
And I said no.

757
00:38:31,185 --> 00:38:32,445
And he said, you are lying.

758
00:38:32,984 --> 00:38:36,645
Wisdom beyond his years
and me behind my mask.

759
00:38:36,855 --> 00:38:38,504
You know, just my eyes looking at him.

760
00:38:38,714 --> 00:38:42,045
And I think we need to have honest
conversations with children at

761
00:38:42,165 --> 00:38:46,095
obviously an age appropriate
level, but they cope with it better

762
00:38:46,095 --> 00:38:47,535
than we do a lot of the time.

763
00:38:47,535 --> 00:38:48,675
I. They really do.

764
00:38:49,455 --> 00:38:55,395
And tell me, when we are talking about
language and the power of words, what

765
00:38:55,395 --> 00:38:59,955
is the difference for you between
expressing your emotions through writing

766
00:38:59,955 --> 00:39:03,045
the fiction and then moving into poetry?

767
00:39:03,285 --> 00:39:05,325
How does that feel for you to then be.

768
00:39:05,595 --> 00:39:07,935
The difference between
the two expressions?

769
00:39:08,175 --> 00:39:09,045
It's an interesting question.

770
00:39:09,045 --> 00:39:10,875
I think it comes from the same wellspring.

771
00:39:10,875 --> 00:39:14,685
I don't set out to say, oh, I'm gonna
write a novel, or, oh, here's a poem.

772
00:39:14,925 --> 00:39:19,065
I think the form I long hand write,
except if I'm writing articles

773
00:39:19,065 --> 00:39:21,975
for newspapers or something, I'll
type those up for some reason.

774
00:39:22,425 --> 00:39:28,335
But I long forms and, and that's my way
I guess, of trusting the process of just

775
00:39:28,335 --> 00:39:33,765
giving into it, of sort of letting my
inner chicken know what it wants to say.

776
00:39:34,110 --> 00:39:36,930
And so I'm not censoring
myself, I'm riding along.

777
00:39:36,930 --> 00:39:37,770
It is trash.

778
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,810
I mean, my first drafts, you
don't wanna look at them.

779
00:39:39,810 --> 00:39:41,880
They're horrible, but they're honest.

780
00:39:42,420 --> 00:39:45,270
And half the time I look back
and I go, who wrote that?

781
00:39:45,330 --> 00:39:46,380
Like, where'd that come from?

782
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,010
I think that's the beauty of creativity
is that you're giving yourself

783
00:39:50,010 --> 00:39:52,920
over to the process and you don't
know there's an inner self that can

784
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,390
express itself, that you're not just.

785
00:39:54,900 --> 00:39:55,680
Shutting up.

786
00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:00,570
Well, that's interesting that you say
that you type your articles when you

787
00:40:00,570 --> 00:40:05,070
are sort of, I suppose, being paid,
and then when you are expressing

788
00:40:05,070 --> 00:40:07,050
yourself, you physically write it.

789
00:40:07,260 --> 00:40:07,710
Mm-hmm.

790
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,800
So it's very much a
physical process for you.

791
00:40:10,860 --> 00:40:11,070
Yeah.

792
00:40:11,070 --> 00:40:13,920
I think it, it stems back to when I was
a little kid, you know, I've started

793
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:15,745
writing longhand and I still do.

794
00:40:16,205 --> 00:40:17,130
And did you do that with.

795
00:40:17,540 --> 00:40:20,840
All of your novels and your
poetry, you start off longhand.

796
00:40:20,900 --> 00:40:21,350
Yeah.

797
00:40:21,590 --> 00:40:22,250
Wow.

798
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:23,180
Absolutely.

799
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,260
I've got my dear friend, Meg Cane
and her father Tom, I found out

800
00:40:27,260 --> 00:40:29,660
recently dictate their books.

801
00:40:32,030 --> 00:40:34,340
What did, did, were you offended?

802
00:40:34,340 --> 00:40:35,325
Did you say you're cheating?

803
00:40:36,105 --> 00:40:37,325
No, I just thought it was amazing.

804
00:40:37,525 --> 00:40:38,125
I can't do it.

805
00:40:38,230 --> 00:40:41,170
But I mean, everyone's got their
own crazy process, I guess.

806
00:40:41,890 --> 00:40:42,820
Yeah, yeah.

807
00:40:42,820 --> 00:40:43,090
No.

808
00:40:43,210 --> 00:40:47,380
Well, and what I love, you've
also got a style with the way in

809
00:40:47,380 --> 00:40:49,090
which you present your poetry.

810
00:40:49,450 --> 00:40:53,320
Could you perhaps talk us through
that with just even the way in

811
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:58,720
which you name and structure the
poetry books that you've written?

812
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:00,640
Like I just find that fascinating.

813
00:41:01,570 --> 00:41:07,510
Oh, look, I love junk and I'm a, I'm an
absolute op shop junkie, and I love books.

814
00:41:08,330 --> 00:41:12,620
And I think my most recent
poetry book that came out last

815
00:41:12,620 --> 00:41:14,450
year was Disorders of the Blood.

816
00:41:15,140 --> 00:41:21,440
And I came across ages ago an old
hematology textbook, blood specialty,

817
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:23,540
and it was called Disorders of the Blood.

818
00:41:23,540 --> 00:41:28,520
It was written in 1939, and I
structured the sections of the book

819
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,840
according to the headings, like,
you know, coagulation or hemorrhage.

820
00:41:32,870 --> 00:41:37,640
And somehow the poems organically kind
of fitted into that trope or that.

821
00:41:37,655 --> 00:41:39,695
Idea behind it.

822
00:41:39,815 --> 00:41:42,545
My first poetry book was called
Stitching Things Together, which

823
00:41:42,545 --> 00:41:47,885
was also an old book about,
you know, tailoring for ladies.

824
00:41:48,665 --> 00:41:51,065
My father was a tailor and I can't sew.

825
00:41:51,645 --> 00:41:53,265
I can't even sew on a button.

826
00:41:53,415 --> 00:41:55,125
Catherine, I'm, it's
such an embarrassment.

827
00:41:55,365 --> 00:41:56,625
I cheated in sewing class.

828
00:41:56,625 --> 00:41:57,495
He just did it for me.

829
00:41:58,065 --> 00:41:59,115
Overlock my skirts, you know.

830
00:41:59,385 --> 00:41:59,775
Um,

831
00:42:00,375 --> 00:42:04,605
I am still so atrocious that I, my
85-year-old mother, when she comes and

832
00:42:04,605 --> 00:42:07,785
stays with us, I'm like, mom, can you
put this button back on for me, please?

833
00:42:07,815 --> 00:42:10,680
Oh, does she wanna swing past my place's?

834
00:42:10,790 --> 00:42:11,595
Gone collect

835
00:42:11,595 --> 00:42:11,715
it?

836
00:42:11,715 --> 00:42:11,925
When

837
00:42:11,925 --> 00:42:11,985
she,

838
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,625
I actually, on that note, I
have to show you something that.

839
00:42:17,939 --> 00:42:18,540
It's quite interesting.

840
00:42:18,540 --> 00:42:21,960
We're talking about trinkets and
things that we hold onto in junk.

841
00:42:22,529 --> 00:42:26,370
I mean, there's my
dad's little sewing box.

842
00:42:26,970 --> 00:42:27,000
Oh,

843
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:27,899
that is gorgeous.

844
00:42:28,049 --> 00:42:28,710
And then I've got,

845
00:42:29,069 --> 00:42:30,779
I've just got next Leah's showing this.

846
00:42:30,779 --> 00:42:31,140
Beautiful.

847
00:42:31,140 --> 00:42:31,710
Is it wooden?

848
00:42:32,009 --> 00:42:32,904
It's Baker Light, yeah.

849
00:42:33,095 --> 00:42:33,384
Yeah.

850
00:42:33,625 --> 00:42:38,549
A, a gorgeous round baker light
container with sewing trinkets in there.

851
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:40,649
Hang on a sec. I've got,
uh, can I do show and tell?

852
00:42:41,580 --> 00:42:44,009
You can do, show and tell and
I'll do the running commentary.

853
00:42:44,220 --> 00:42:44,790
How's that?

854
00:42:45,209 --> 00:42:45,899
And I've got

855
00:42:45,899 --> 00:42:47,669
dad's little thimble, hang on.

856
00:42:47,819 --> 00:42:48,930
Oh, how beautiful.

857
00:42:48,930 --> 00:42:51,899
His thimble also in a container

858
00:42:52,020 --> 00:42:54,689
with his little sewing box
from the sewing machine.

859
00:42:55,439 --> 00:42:55,470
Oh.

860
00:42:55,470 --> 00:42:56,759
Then this is the PS

861
00:42:57,180 --> 00:42:58,259
to resistance.

862
00:42:58,950 --> 00:43:00,024
This'll send you, I'll have to get

863
00:43:00,029 --> 00:43:02,759
you to take photos and, and we'll
share them on the show notes.

864
00:43:03,149 --> 00:43:04,200
Does anyone know what that is?

865
00:43:04,455 --> 00:43:05,924
I would say it's an eye glass.

866
00:43:05,984 --> 00:43:06,525
It is.

867
00:43:06,525 --> 00:43:07,665
It was my dad's eye glass.

868
00:43:07,665 --> 00:43:07,725
Yeah.

869
00:43:08,990 --> 00:43:10,089
Oh my goodness.

870
00:43:10,410 --> 00:43:11,415
I dunno what you did with it.

871
00:43:11,415 --> 00:43:12,525
You washed your eye out.

872
00:43:12,525 --> 00:43:12,890
I dunno.

873
00:43:13,250 --> 00:43:15,490
I think you'd have a bit of
Johnny Walker in it or something.

874
00:43:15,609 --> 00:43:15,970
I dunno.

875
00:43:15,970 --> 00:43:16,210
It's

876
00:43:16,210 --> 00:43:16,529
extreme.

877
00:43:16,665 --> 00:43:18,255
It looks like a shot glass, doesn't it?

878
00:43:18,255 --> 00:43:20,890
It's very thick glass.

879
00:43:21,315 --> 00:43:22,785
Like old style glass.

880
00:43:22,785 --> 00:43:22,935
Yes.

881
00:43:23,055 --> 00:43:23,174
It's

882
00:43:23,174 --> 00:43:23,984
beautiful.

883
00:43:24,194 --> 00:43:26,805
So you know that sort of walking
style, I feel like when I touch

884
00:43:26,805 --> 00:43:28,484
that I recreate my father.

885
00:43:28,484 --> 00:43:29,595
Does that sound a bit weird?

886
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:34,620
You know, what do you think is
it about those things that we

887
00:43:34,740 --> 00:43:36,660
hold so near and dear to us?

888
00:43:36,779 --> 00:43:38,640
There's a beautiful saying by Aristotle.

889
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:43,529
I can't remember what the Latin is,
it's called, there are tears and things,

890
00:43:43,740 --> 00:43:47,610
and I, I, I've always found objects
really interesting in that what do

891
00:43:47,610 --> 00:43:50,220
they hold and what do they embody?

892
00:43:50,430 --> 00:43:53,520
And so for me, when I
grew up without my family.

893
00:43:54,285 --> 00:43:54,915
Treasures.

894
00:43:54,915 --> 00:43:55,005
Mm-hmm.

895
00:43:55,815 --> 00:43:57,105
I had to create my own.

896
00:43:57,105 --> 00:44:01,365
And so now I have my parents things
and when I hold them and I smell them.

897
00:44:01,725 --> 00:44:04,455
It just brings back the history,
it brings back the memory

898
00:44:04,455 --> 00:44:05,595
and it brings back the dead.

899
00:44:05,625 --> 00:44:06,885
Does that sound bizarre?

900
00:44:07,215 --> 00:44:07,455
No.

901
00:44:07,755 --> 00:44:12,075
That's why we have Memento Maori and, and
it's been done for centuries, you know?

902
00:44:12,075 --> 00:44:12,135
Yeah.

903
00:44:12,495 --> 00:44:16,725
Because it is that connection
that is that way of keeping them

904
00:44:16,875 --> 00:44:20,115
and smells, you know, there are certain
smells that will remind me of my

905
00:44:20,115 --> 00:44:23,175
mother, or, you know, it's very potent.

906
00:44:23,205 --> 00:44:26,565
It's, it's really powerful and I
used to kind of get creeped out by

907
00:44:26,565 --> 00:44:29,775
it, but now it's actually soothing
and it makes me feel at home again.

908
00:44:30,005 --> 00:44:30,665
Yeah.

909
00:44:30,725 --> 00:44:33,845
And tell me with everyone that
you've spoken to and everything that

910
00:44:33,845 --> 00:44:38,450
you've experienced, what are the
key things that you have taken away?

911
00:44:39,345 --> 00:44:43,305
From what you've learned about death
through your writing and your poetry,

912
00:44:43,515 --> 00:44:48,045
it's really hard to not have it sound
cliche, Catherine, but I think that it

913
00:44:48,045 --> 00:44:51,285
is part of life if you think about it.

914
00:44:51,555 --> 00:44:53,895
Not in a morbid way, but in a natural way.

915
00:44:53,895 --> 00:44:57,735
It helps us frame what we wanna
do with our small time on this

916
00:44:57,735 --> 00:45:00,015
planet and what matters to us.

917
00:45:00,015 --> 00:45:01,815
I think it's a big my allowed to swear.

918
00:45:01,845 --> 00:45:03,105
Big bullshit cutting factor.

919
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:05,530
Oh yeah, you just have
and you're allowed to.

920
00:45:05,530 --> 00:45:05,740
Thank you.

921
00:45:05,740 --> 00:45:06,280
It's okay.

922
00:45:06,310 --> 00:45:07,390
We're all adults here.

923
00:45:07,870 --> 00:45:11,560
I think when it's sort of you come
face to face with it, it distills

924
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:13,210
the essence of what's important.

925
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:18,850
You know, one thing I haven't mentioned,
my son was 17 and we come back on a long

926
00:45:18,850 --> 00:45:23,500
haul flight and he'd gotten very sick with
a gut illness and a couple of days later.

927
00:45:23,900 --> 00:45:26,900
I was in the shower and he went
to answer the door and he fell.

928
00:45:26,900 --> 00:45:30,530
He couldn't open the door and
he was paralyzed in three limbs.

929
00:45:30,830 --> 00:45:34,250
He had a very rare condition called
transverse myelitis where the, the

930
00:45:34,250 --> 00:45:38,690
lining of the nerves and the spinal
cord, the myelin, was just sheared off

931
00:45:38,690 --> 00:45:42,260
from this horrible infection that he'd
had, and it took him a year to recover.

932
00:45:42,260 --> 00:45:44,665
He had to learn to walk
again, and so there I was.

933
00:45:45,299 --> 00:45:49,830
You know, on the other side of the fence,
looking at, and I've written about this

934
00:45:49,830 --> 00:45:53,609
quite a bit, but looking at my colleagues
who are looking at the sort of, you know,

935
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:57,810
moth eaten spine of my son and telling me,
you just be a mother, don't be a doctor.

936
00:45:58,020 --> 00:45:58,920
Now you're the mother.

937
00:45:59,580 --> 00:46:00,569
And I'm like, I'm both.

938
00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:04,980
That was a really galvanizing, you
know, when someone's so close to you and

939
00:46:04,980 --> 00:46:06,720
you don't know what's going to happen.

940
00:46:07,230 --> 00:46:11,970
That for me, again, was a big BS
cutting factor and made me rethink,

941
00:46:12,060 --> 00:46:13,860
you know, I don't wanna waste my life.

942
00:46:13,860 --> 00:46:17,400
I want to do things that
really matter to me personally.

943
00:46:17,910 --> 00:46:19,770
You know, he's fine now
and he, he's better.

944
00:46:19,770 --> 00:46:23,910
That was a long time ago, but it was a
pretty horrific experience to go through.

945
00:46:24,090 --> 00:46:28,350
Very leveling and being on the other
side of things, not the doctor.

946
00:46:28,725 --> 00:46:30,555
But you know the patient's mother.

947
00:46:31,425 --> 00:46:35,865
Yeah, I, I can never look at parents
of children who are ill again and

948
00:46:35,865 --> 00:46:38,265
not feel that very deep empathy.

949
00:46:38,565 --> 00:46:44,445
And what would you say to people
who perhaps were like you or are.

950
00:46:44,525 --> 00:46:50,615
Like you were, I should say, that
might have a fear of death and medical

951
00:46:50,615 --> 00:46:52,265
appointments and those sorts of things.

952
00:46:52,265 --> 00:46:54,305
What would you suggest given your,

953
00:46:54,365 --> 00:46:56,255
you know, process that
you've been through?

954
00:46:56,615 --> 00:46:57,785
Look, it never goes away.

955
00:46:57,815 --> 00:47:00,845
You know, I, I'd be disingenuous
to say, oh look, I'm so zen now.

956
00:47:00,845 --> 00:47:02,330
I just don't, you know, I don't,

957
00:47:05,170 --> 00:47:05,410
I think.

958
00:47:06,060 --> 00:47:10,170
You know, in particular, I deal with a lot
of people with health anxiety and I used

959
00:47:10,170 --> 00:47:15,360
to, I think, be far more flippant of it,
or dismissive of it, or you know, and now

960
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,120
I understand it needs to be listened to.

961
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:24,330
It needs to be taken seriously, and you
need to understand what your patient needs

962
00:47:24,330 --> 00:47:27,240
in order to feel better about things.

963
00:47:27,270 --> 00:47:29,970
So do they need extensive investigations?

964
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,799
Just because, you know, doing the
Toyota service is gonna prove to them

965
00:47:34,799 --> 00:47:38,460
that they're fine and then they'll
go off and be happy or you know,

966
00:47:38,460 --> 00:47:40,080
is there something underlying it?

967
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:44,730
I think for me, the thing I've learned
the most, and this ties in with being a

968
00:47:44,730 --> 00:47:49,590
writer and a reader, is looking for the
subtext, looking for what's not being

969
00:47:49,590 --> 00:47:55,170
said or what hasn't been put down on the
page in that you're listening for story.

970
00:47:55,575 --> 00:48:01,395
So if you know Mrs. Kafu comes into me
for the 10th time in a month with a sore

971
00:48:01,395 --> 00:48:04,500
throat or I don't know anything, mm-hmm.

972
00:48:05,085 --> 00:48:07,305
I can then say, yeah, here's
another lot of antibiotics, or

973
00:48:07,305 --> 00:48:07,995
There's nothing wrong with you.

974
00:48:07,995 --> 00:48:08,385
Go home.

975
00:48:09,555 --> 00:48:14,535
Or I can say, I can turn around and I
can say, what is going on in your life?

976
00:48:15,105 --> 00:48:19,335
Why are you getting this chronic,
whatever that you are coming in with?

977
00:48:19,395 --> 00:48:20,355
What's happening in your life?

978
00:48:21,135 --> 00:48:24,795
Now, I'm not saying it's all in
the head, but I'm saying there's

979
00:48:24,795 --> 00:48:28,065
no, in my books, there's no
dotted line between body and soul.

980
00:48:28,065 --> 00:48:28,725
Call it what you like.

981
00:48:29,300 --> 00:48:29,720
Mm-hmm.

982
00:48:29,860 --> 00:48:35,760
And so I think for me, I. Listening to
the story is important across the board,

983
00:48:35,820 --> 00:48:39,210
and I'm not sure how that ties into
death, but you know, somewhere there.

984
00:48:39,750 --> 00:48:42,360
No, I think that's
really good observation.

985
00:48:42,570 --> 00:48:46,800
And obviously it sounds like you've
become a much better practitioner.

986
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:48,360
Oh, you have to ask my patients that.

987
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:49,710
They probably think I'm dreadful.

988
00:48:50,850 --> 00:48:52,650
They're always waiting by half an hour.

989
00:48:52,710 --> 00:48:53,400
Oh, Leah.

990
00:48:55,225 --> 00:48:56,210
Are you gas bagging?

991
00:48:56,210 --> 00:49:01,250
Again, I think that waiting for a doctor
is a standard thing, that's for sure.

992
00:49:01,255 --> 00:49:04,100
My tr my, I think my next book
has to be on time management.

993
00:49:05,990 --> 00:49:08,930
Well, the first one was waiting room,
so we, we well and truly got that

994
00:49:08,930 --> 00:49:09,141
one covered.

995
00:49:10,705 --> 00:49:14,154
That came out of my absolute
frustration with waiting.

996
00:49:15,055 --> 00:49:17,125
I used to be the most
impatient human being.

997
00:49:17,125 --> 00:49:18,415
I couldn't wait for anything.

998
00:49:20,005 --> 00:49:24,325
So your, it sounds like your
entire collection of works is

999
00:49:24,325 --> 00:49:27,295
a, is a really a way of working
through your therapy there, Leah?

1000
00:49:27,535 --> 00:49:27,625
I

1001
00:49:27,625 --> 00:49:28,015
think so.

1002
00:49:30,234 --> 00:49:31,975
Well, the world is richer for it.

1003
00:49:32,065 --> 00:49:33,355
Geraldine Brooks Got it.

1004
00:49:33,380 --> 00:49:34,160
Beautifully.

1005
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:35,450
If I can sum up, yeah.

1006
00:49:35,540 --> 00:49:39,560
I listened to one of her Boyer lectures
and it said, she was talking about home

1007
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,100
and the whole idea of home, and she
said that the word comes from an old

1008
00:49:43,100 --> 00:49:46,760
Norse word called Hempter, H-E-I-M-T-A.

1009
00:49:47,270 --> 00:49:50,480
It means to come home, but
it also means haunting.

1010
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:54,770
And what it sort of came to me for
me is that really the ghosts, the

1011
00:49:54,770 --> 00:50:00,170
haunting, the history and what came
before us actually brings us home.

1012
00:50:00,750 --> 00:50:04,890
Into ourselves and our heritage and
grounds us in where we came from.

1013
00:50:05,009 --> 00:50:05,819
Wow.

1014
00:50:06,060 --> 00:50:07,290
It makes perfect sense.

1015
00:50:07,290 --> 00:50:11,819
And what a beautiful way to, I
think, conclude our chat today, Leah.

1016
00:50:12,930 --> 00:50:14,069
Thank you Catherine.

1017
00:50:14,759 --> 00:50:15,569
No problems.

1018
00:50:15,569 --> 00:50:18,240
Is there anything else that you'd
like to share with our listeners?

1019
00:50:18,569 --> 00:50:18,930
No, I

1020
00:50:18,930 --> 00:50:21,330
think you just don't put off anything.

1021
00:50:22,379 --> 00:50:22,440
Yeah.

1022
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:23,795
And if, if, you know, if you wanna do.

1023
00:50:25,695 --> 00:50:28,365
Like you wanna be a writer, go and write.

1024
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:30,810
Fantastic.

1025
00:50:30,855 --> 00:50:32,715
You wanna be a pole dancer?

1026
00:50:32,715 --> 00:50:33,225
Off you go.

1027
00:50:33,495 --> 00:50:34,695
Do some classes.

1028
00:50:34,695 --> 00:50:35,295
I dunno.

1029
00:50:35,295 --> 00:50:36,405
Whatever lights you up.

1030
00:50:36,975 --> 00:50:38,475
Yeah, I think that's great.

1031
00:50:38,475 --> 00:50:39,795
That's very good advice.

1032
00:50:39,795 --> 00:50:45,225
Well, I can't thank you enough and I'm
so pleased that I met you at Frankston

1033
00:50:45,225 --> 00:50:46,935
City Library just before Christmas,

1034
00:50:46,995 --> 00:50:48,795
and thank you for what you do, Catherine.

1035
00:50:48,795 --> 00:50:50,865
I think it's incredibly important.

1036
00:50:51,375 --> 00:50:52,490
Oh, thank you so much, Leah.

1037
00:50:55,710 --> 00:50:59,129
We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,

1038
00:50:59,430 --> 00:51:01,200
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1039
00:51:01,950 --> 00:51:06,210
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1040
00:51:06,210 --> 00:51:08,040
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1041
00:51:08,279 --> 00:51:11,910
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1042
00:51:11,910 --> 00:51:13,650
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1043
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1044
00:51:15,710 --> 00:51:19,700
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1045
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1046
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1047
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1048
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