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Aunty Jill West: Non Indigenous
people are not the ones that did this.

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It was the government.

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Australia has this misconception that we
think it's them personally, but it's not.

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Yes, we were invaded by
British, but it's not.

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The people that are sitting in my
training, they come from British h ... Read More

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Aunty Jill West: Non Indigenous
people are not the ones that did this.

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It was the government.

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Australia has this misconception that we
think it's them personally, but it's not.

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Yes, we were invaded by
British, but it's not.

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The people that are sitting in my
training, they come from British heritage.

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Every time I do a training, we hold
my talking stick and I want people

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to tell me where they're from.

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The heritage is so important because
I say, it's okay to say British and

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it's okay to say Australian because
where you come from is the most

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important piece of who you are.

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It doesn't matter about the history.

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You've always got to be proud
because it wasn't you that did this.

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It's not about guilt or sorry.

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Because no one learns in that space.

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I've never judged people.

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I accept people the way they are.

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And my dad said, it's not your
right to understand, but it is your

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obligation to accept difference.

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And he said, had we had the capacity
to do that, he believed no weapons

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of war would have ever been created.

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Catherine: Welcome to Don't Be
Caught Dead, a podcast encouraging

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open conversations about dying
and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Katherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death back to life.

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Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin nations,

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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.

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We pay our respects to their elders,
past, present and emerging, and extend

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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Today, we're speaking
with Aunty Gillian Wentz.

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Uh, I was so fortunate to meet
Aunty Gillian at a recent symposium

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that Open House Melbourne, uh, put
on at the Bunurong Memorial Park.

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And it was a really enlightening
experience that I had, uh, and I'm really

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looking forward to having a chat now.

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So Aunty Gillian, thanks for joining us.

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Aunty Jill West: Thank you
for having me, Catherine.

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It's a pleasure.

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Catherine: Aunty Gillian.

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Can you please tell me about a time
when someone close to you died?

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Aunty Jill West: Yeah, so I was
28 years old and my father died

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of a heart attack suddenly.

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He was 53 years of age and it impacted
me in a way that I, I, I don't think

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I really dealt with it immediately
because it was such a shock.

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But also he had remarried when I
was 13 and lived in other states.

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So I felt like I'd lost him twice.

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So it was like when he
passed away, it was.

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Disbelief.

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And then when we went up, he died on
Bundjalung country and lives more.

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And when we went out for the, um,
it wasn't a traditional ceremony

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then, but it was, it was at the, the
funeral or the funeral home, I don't

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know what they're really called, and
we just had a beautiful open casket

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ceremony with about 500 people.

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And that was when it really hit
me that I saw my dad laying there

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and peacefully and beautiful.

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But I actually thought.

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That he hasn't really gone because
we believe in the dream, in the dream

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time, which we can talk about later.

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So I think the most, yeah, him, him dying
at such a young age at 53 and me 28,

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he had 4 other kids under 10, I think.

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And my twin obviously was 28 as well,
and my older sister was 18 months older.

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So, yeah, that the impact
of his young life and.

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And we can talk about that later, like
during the interview of the work and

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the, um, things he did as an Aboriginal
man that just wasn't finished.

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Catherine: Yeah.

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So tell me about your upbringing.

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You're a Palawa woman, so if you
can just explain to the audience

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what your cultural heritage is and
what that means to be a Palawa woman

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and, and also Bunurong, I believe.

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Aunty Jill West: Yeah, so I'm a
Bunurong woman from a descendant, our

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Apical ancestor, Elizabeth Maynard,
Sarah Maynard, sorry, and she was a

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woman taken by sealers, uh, the Point
of the Nepean was a, a sacred women's

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site birthing area and five Bunurong
women were there and taken by sealers

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and four to Tasmania, one to WA.

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So I'm along the lines of her
and she was able to, you know,

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come back and be very strong.

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So I always keep reminding myself
that lineage I have with that line to

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Bunurong, but I'm also, uh, Palawa woman.

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So we're along the lines of Manalaganna.

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He was our chief, chieftain, and they
said he was of supreme intelligence.

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And so I'm lucky to be, come from
two strong heritages dating back,

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as you'd know, 65, 000 years.

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So I'm very proud.

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Dad was very proud.

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And as he died so young, I actually am
now teaching, which he did, and, uh,

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walking next to his footsteps because I'll
never be able to walk in his footsteps.

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He was size 13 anyway, but
yeah, that's what I do.

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His young life at 53,
he had so much to do.

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So now I look at it as now I'm 51,
nearly the age he died, and I'm

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continuing the work that he wasn't
able to finish in the tangible world.

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Catherine: And just before
we move on to your father, so

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Kallawa, that's in Tasmania.

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Aunty Jill West: Tasmania,
and Bunurong is Victoria.

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Catherine: Fantastic, and like you
were saying, around Point Nepean area.

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Point

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Aunty Jill West: Nepean, yeah, so
Bunurong country is from Werribee River,

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Wilsons Prom, and to Point Nepean.

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I was actually born on Bunurong
country in Williamstown, uh, so

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I'm very lucky to be born there.

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But dad, dad was born in Launceston and
grew, put on a mission on Cape Barron and

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then grew up on Flinders Island as well.

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So I have strong connection to
Tasmania as well as a strong

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connection to Bunurong country.

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So I live on Bunurong country.

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I'm lucky.

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But when I Need my cultural spirit
field and connect to my ancestors from

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Tasmania, I'll go over to Flinders Island.

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and walk on country there.

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So I'm lucky to have two
countries that I can be on.

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Catherine: And if you, you were just
saying that your dad was taken and

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put on a mission on Flinders Island,
so the fact that you even know what

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country you're from, it must be a
unique perspective and ability to have

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that connection too, is that correct?

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Aunty Jill West: So lucky, yeah.

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So lucky that our stories have been handed
down for 400 generations without one word

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changing orally and, you know, to be able
to tell my dad's story that he was put on

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a mission in a segregated school when my
grandfather was born on Cape Barren, his

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dad, and, you know, the, the hardships
that they had and that segregated school,

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I can't imagine being in a school that
I wasn't allowed near kids that weren't,

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you know, weren't Aboriginal because
I was a lower, you know, looked at as

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not human or lower race than, I don't
like saying white man or white people.

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So I always say Indigenous,
non Indigenous people.

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And you know, he didn't have the
opportunity to even finish grade five.

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Um, and I can't imagine what that's like.

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And with our great grandfather,
Manigalena, my dad also

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had supreme intelligence.

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So he'd become a teacher, a
master's in teaching, a senior

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university lecturer, and a doctor
of Indigenous philosophy without.

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Finishing grade five.

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Catherine: How did that happen?

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Do you mind sharing that story?

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Like, that's so amazing.

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Aunty Jill West: Yeah, growing up in
Flinders Island and then he started to

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study when he was, I think, 20 years old.

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He come to Victoria and to get
an education and he met my mum.

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Well, actually he met my mum's brother,
my uncle to start with, and all my

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mum's side are Jehovah Witnesses.

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Yeah, right.

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Wow.

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That's quite different.

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So when my dad, very different.

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So when my dad met my mom,
they got married and my dad

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became a Jehovah's Witness.

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So his first three girls, including me,
were born into that world for 10 years.

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So dad, in that time, got an education,
mum worked, he worked, my grandmother,

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my mum's mum looked after us three so
they could both work and dad could study.

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So dad studied at Melbourne Uni, becoming
a teacher with the support of my mum.

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And yeah, he was an elder in the
congregation of that religion and didn't

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talk about his Aboriginality at all.

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Because you've got to remember by the
time he was 20, it was a 1967 referendum

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and he was just considered a human being.

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Catherine: Yeah.

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Cause prior to that time, do you want to
just sort of give some insight into that?

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Aunty Jill West: Yeah, so prior to that
time, our people weren't recognized as

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citizens or humans in their own country
or be counted as part of the population.

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So my grandfather fought in the war in
1939 to 45 and returned, and he was a

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prisoner of war, my grandfather, and
returned and still wasn't classed a

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human being or part of the population.

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And like I said, my dad was 20
and he was first considered.

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a person and could be
counted as a population.

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So I think, I think meeting my
mum at that time was something

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he really needed because having
my mum and that Western world.

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It gave him that opportunity to be
a human and a man and be recognized.

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And you know, he would talk at our
meetings, we'd go around door knocking.

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He, he's, that's where he learned
to speak the way he spoke.

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He had the intelligence, but
that's where he learned to, yeah,

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to be recognized as a person and
be able to study at a university.

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He did help build what's called a
Rihuana Center in Tasmania as well.

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So he went back and my, my dad and mom
actually split up when I was about 13.

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He, uh, him and my step mom, he's
a beautiful Aboriginal woman.

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They met and had four other kids
and lived in different places like

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Tassie and Lismore and Townsville.

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So dad was part of Rihawana Centre
in Tasmania and every year they

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acknowledge him and there's a
scholarship in his honour called

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Japanunga Arrowess Scholarship.

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So.

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You know, living that life of that
religion too, for 10 years, I think helped

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shape, shape him into the two worlds.

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He was in that Western.

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A

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Catherine: little bit about that, because
a lot of people don't have insight into

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what that means to be a Jehovah's Witness.

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So just to give a bit of insight,
my husband's father converted

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to become a Jehovah's witness.

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And so his, his wife who I, I
met and have a good relationship

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with, she is also a Jehovah's
witness and continues to practice.

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And it's, it's quite a, an organized,
structured religion, isn't it?

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Aunty Jill West: Yeah, it is.

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So, there was no, uh, birthdays, Easter,
Christmas, you needed to be married

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before anything, door knocking, meetings.

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I think it was a Tuesday night
and a Thursday night and a Sunday

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and door knocking on a Saturday.

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So it was consumed your whole life.

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Like I said, I never had a birthday,
Christmas, Easter, until I was 10.

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I had to stand outside the classroom
with my twin while they were making

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Easter eggs or painting Easter eggs or
Christmas cards and things like that.

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Cause we weren't allowed to partake in it.

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Now I don't, my mom is
still a Jehovah witness.

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It actually saved her, her life
when my mom and dad split up.

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So, you know, I respect the religion,
everyone's belief, but it's not

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something that I would ever, ever.

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be part of again.

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And that's not because I had bad
experiences, but it's just not my belief.

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And yeah, so, so dad being in that
world, I think it actually helped

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shaping him into a proud Aboriginal man.

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And I don't know if that even
makes sense, but he was respected.

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People came to him.

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He studied.

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He's, uh, intelligence,
like I said, was supreme.

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I had one of the highest IQs.

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So when he started studying,
you know, he started to meet.

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Aboriginal people and
no Aboriginal people.

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And then when I was 10, someone
actually lied about him.

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So he pulled us all out.

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My mum included my two sisters
and took us to Canberra.

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So in Canberra, he become the
chairman of the national Aboriginal

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education committee and gave strategic
advice to the minister of education.

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And that's when we found
out we were Aboriginal.

219
00:13:28,165 --> 00:13:31,314
So he went from that world, or
we went from that world to our

220
00:13:31,314 --> 00:13:36,395
cultural world as 10 year old, I was
a 10 year old girl and started to

221
00:13:36,395 --> 00:13:38,704
learn about language and Tasmania.

222
00:13:38,704 --> 00:13:43,764
And at the time, dad didn't talk about
Bunurong, but his brother, my uncle Chris.

223
00:13:44,495 --> 00:13:46,995
was part of Bunurong a long time.

224
00:13:46,995 --> 00:13:50,595
So I don't know the stories
there, but my Uncle Chris always

225
00:13:50,605 --> 00:13:54,155
said Bunurong and Palawa, but
didn't talk a lot about Palawa.

226
00:13:54,185 --> 00:13:56,485
My dad was Palawa and
didn't talk about Bunurong.

227
00:13:56,534 --> 00:14:01,035
So, but at that time when we moved to
Canberra, like a whole world changed.

228
00:14:01,035 --> 00:14:03,655
We, you know, we had Aboriginal
people coming around.

229
00:14:03,665 --> 00:14:09,195
Dad, you know, was talking at gathering
places and educating people and.

230
00:14:09,575 --> 00:14:14,504
Telling us about, you know, being
born on, on that mission, one system

231
00:14:14,504 --> 00:14:19,265
and being put on the mission and
yeah, whole life's changed and.

232
00:14:20,145 --> 00:14:23,975
He started to become a real
activist for reconciliation

233
00:14:24,475 --> 00:14:26,035
and the rights of our people.

234
00:14:27,085 --> 00:14:31,854
And then the mum and dad split up and
I ended up going back to Melbourne

235
00:14:31,854 --> 00:14:36,095
with my mum and my twin sister, where
my mum went back to the religion.

236
00:14:36,115 --> 00:14:41,405
So not only did I lose my dad and that
culture, I lost, well that's what I

237
00:14:41,405 --> 00:14:45,465
lost, my dad and culture and come to be
with mum because I wanted to support mum

238
00:14:45,465 --> 00:14:47,695
and we didn't go back as 13 year olds.

239
00:14:48,210 --> 00:14:53,980
To be Jehovah witnesses, but that's what,
you know, I still kept that Aboriginal

240
00:14:54,610 --> 00:14:59,939
sense of who I was growing up, but it
was missing because dad had another

241
00:14:59,959 --> 00:15:02,480
family and he was in another state.

242
00:15:02,930 --> 00:15:04,319
So I kind of lost a little bit.

243
00:15:04,580 --> 00:15:08,870
Of culture and that connection, I could
ring him up and he'd be there for me.

244
00:15:08,870 --> 00:15:11,750
I'd go visit whenever I got in
trouble, he'd put me on a plane

245
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,030
and I'd be up there with him.

246
00:15:13,410 --> 00:15:15,350
My stepmom was very supportive.

247
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:17,680
My three sisters and
brother are beautiful.

248
00:15:18,189 --> 00:15:24,449
And yeah, so when he died, you know, I
felt like, you know, I said, I felt like

249
00:15:24,450 --> 00:15:27,410
I lost him twice, but I lost culture.

250
00:15:28,580 --> 00:15:31,890
Twice as well, because I lost it when I
come here, and then I lost it when he,

251
00:15:31,940 --> 00:15:36,920
when he passed away, and I'm like, I'm
never going to, to learn from my father,

252
00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,939
because our grandparents, the Palawa
line, are the knowledge holders, the

253
00:15:40,940 --> 00:15:45,510
grandparents, the men teach the children,
my grandfather died when I was nine.

254
00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:48,190
So I lost that cultural knowledge.

255
00:15:48,190 --> 00:15:51,650
So then my dad, I could do it
only a little bit because it

256
00:15:51,650 --> 00:15:54,610
wasn't his obligation, it was
my grandfather's obligation.

257
00:15:55,220 --> 00:16:00,130
So then our kids, when my dad died,
they lost culture because he was the

258
00:16:00,130 --> 00:16:01,930
knowledge holder and the teacher of them.

259
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,510
So when he passed away, I didn't
know what to do or where to go.

260
00:16:07,099 --> 00:16:11,150
I had a, I had a boy, a baby boy at 20.

261
00:16:12,220 --> 00:16:17,210
And then I got a job at Centrelink, I
think, when I was about 23, and when

262
00:16:17,210 --> 00:16:20,659
I got the job at Centrelink, there was
a role called the Indigenous Service

263
00:16:20,659 --> 00:16:25,850
Officer, and I really wanted to get
into that space, because I just had a

264
00:16:25,850 --> 00:16:29,439
feeling that I'll be able to connect
to culture somewhere within that space.

265
00:16:29,689 --> 00:16:35,910
Another lady was doing it for a long time,
so I applied when I just started, and I,

266
00:16:36,050 --> 00:16:39,050
you know, she won the role, obviously,
she'd been doing it for 8 years.

267
00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:45,535
And then A couple of years later, there
was a new manager, he come from Bundjalung

268
00:16:45,565 --> 00:16:47,724
country, Liz Moore, Chris Lewis.

269
00:16:47,724 --> 00:16:52,625
And this is a man that's actually
put me on the cultural path that I am

270
00:16:52,625 --> 00:16:56,145
now, as well as dad from the dreaming
and dream time of my grandfather.

271
00:16:56,455 --> 00:16:58,895
He'd become manager of
the indigenous unit.

272
00:16:59,074 --> 00:17:03,040
And when someone mentioned my name, he
said he's heard, Her dad, Errol West.

273
00:17:03,470 --> 00:17:05,040
And they said, my manager said yes.

274
00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:07,949
And he said, my mum worked
with him at the uni.

275
00:17:07,949 --> 00:17:08,649
He's my uncle.

276
00:17:08,649 --> 00:17:09,470
He taught me.

277
00:17:09,889 --> 00:17:14,319
And I was at his, his ceremony in Lismore.

278
00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:17,470
I remember Gillian talking about him.

279
00:17:17,929 --> 00:17:23,200
And then he just, Took me in and put me
on this cultural path of learning and

280
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:28,599
that's where, how I was able to get to
where I am now in the tangible world,

281
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:33,499
Chris, and the intangible dreaming,
dreaming is my grandfather and my dad.

282
00:17:34,169 --> 00:17:37,990
So everything turned out okay,
but it's a bit of a story.

283
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,330
Catherine: That is phenomenal because,
you know, obviously there must have

284
00:17:45,330 --> 00:17:49,879
been, as you were saying, the grief
of, of your, your parents separating.

285
00:17:50,490 --> 00:17:54,090
I'm just astounded that, you know,
you were, you were 10 and your

286
00:17:54,090 --> 00:17:58,009
older sister was 12 when you found
out that you were Aboriginal.

287
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:03,649
Like I'm sure that that was very
commonplace, but what a, what a thing

288
00:18:03,649 --> 00:18:08,909
to find out then to go through the
separation of, of your parents and then

289
00:18:08,909 --> 00:18:16,000
come back and then come back into a
Jehovah's world again is really amazing.

290
00:18:16,379 --> 00:18:17,279
And it's such a.

291
00:18:17,790 --> 00:18:20,390
Such a challenging time
of being a teenager.

292
00:18:21,050 --> 00:18:22,040
Aunty Jill West: Yeah, I was 13.

293
00:18:22,070 --> 00:18:24,870
So you can imagine how
old my twin and I were.

294
00:18:25,220 --> 00:18:28,269
We lived with my grandmother, my
mum's mum, and she was still a Jehovah

295
00:18:28,270 --> 00:18:30,479
Witness, but they didn't make us go.

296
00:18:31,010 --> 00:18:32,330
They knew that they couldn't.

297
00:18:32,430 --> 00:18:33,369
We were grieving.

298
00:18:33,369 --> 00:18:39,210
We, you know, so, but always
respected mum's choice and belief.

299
00:18:39,795 --> 00:18:44,655
You know, in what, what she
believes in always, and she

300
00:18:44,665 --> 00:18:46,775
never pushes us, pushes it on us.

301
00:18:47,085 --> 00:18:51,585
Obviously, she'd love us to be part of
it, but she's been really good like that.

302
00:18:51,774 --> 00:18:55,295
Yeah, but it was, it was a bit of, it's
like, I felt like I'm jumping in two

303
00:18:55,295 --> 00:18:58,154
worlds while I'm grieving for my dad.

304
00:18:58,624 --> 00:19:02,805
So it's, you know, I still navigate
that every day because I, you know,

305
00:19:02,815 --> 00:19:06,935
I, you've probably heard it with what
you, you know, Do Catherines agree?

306
00:19:07,325 --> 00:19:11,105
Death is something you don't get
over, but you learn to live with.

307
00:19:11,105 --> 00:19:17,145
Like, for me, when I need to also
feel better, I go to the Bunurong

308
00:19:17,195 --> 00:19:18,745
Cemetery and sit down there.

309
00:19:19,804 --> 00:19:23,764
Because I believe it's a sacred area and
I'm just finding out whether it is or not.

310
00:19:23,764 --> 00:19:26,835
I think it was a woman's site
or something significant.

311
00:19:26,845 --> 00:19:32,235
So, I, death to me is, um, I feel closer.

312
00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:34,680
people who've passed away.

313
00:19:35,050 --> 00:19:39,370
Like my dad, I feel like he's with
me more than when he was alive.

314
00:19:39,770 --> 00:19:44,419
Catherine: Now, tell me a little bit about
how you went through that process of being

315
00:19:44,570 --> 00:19:49,230
23 and starting this awakening, I suppose.

316
00:19:49,230 --> 00:19:50,489
Is that a good word to use?

317
00:19:50,490 --> 00:19:51,469
Yeah, that's a good word to use.

318
00:19:51,870 --> 00:19:52,260
Aunty Jill West: Yeah.

319
00:19:52,260 --> 00:19:52,532
Of

320
00:19:52,532 --> 00:19:53,077
Catherine: your culture.

321
00:19:53,077 --> 00:19:53,349
Yeah.

322
00:19:53,350 --> 00:19:55,330
And talk me through that process.

323
00:19:55,680 --> 00:20:00,659
Obviously, this is when you realised
that the oral histories were

324
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:05,830
passed down from the grandfather
to the, the next grandchildren.

325
00:20:06,060 --> 00:20:06,200
Yeah.

326
00:20:06,370 --> 00:20:08,509
What other things did you
learn during that time?

327
00:20:08,509 --> 00:20:10,859
There must have been huge amounts.

328
00:20:10,859 --> 00:20:10,939
There was so

329
00:20:10,990 --> 00:20:11,560
Aunty Jill West: much.

330
00:20:11,940 --> 00:20:16,350
So when I actually got the role as
the Indigenous Service Officer, I

331
00:20:16,350 --> 00:20:21,090
applied for it, um, through Sat on a
panel, the lady who had done it for

332
00:20:21,090 --> 00:20:23,330
a long time, didn't think I'd get it.

333
00:20:23,370 --> 00:20:26,370
And I did let her know that
I was going to apply for it.

334
00:20:26,370 --> 00:20:27,680
She told me to go for it.

335
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,490
When I got it, she appealed, which
is everyone has the right to appeal.

336
00:20:31,780 --> 00:20:32,599
And then I won it.

337
00:20:32,670 --> 00:20:36,130
And that was a bit of a challenge too,
because that lady actually went out and

338
00:20:36,130 --> 00:20:38,409
told community that I wasn't Aboriginal.

339
00:20:38,430 --> 00:20:42,060
So we have lateral violence and she
told people that I wasn't Aboriginal.

340
00:20:42,060 --> 00:20:46,040
So I had to go into this community in
the East and, and, and, and, and, Say I'm

341
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,520
an Aboriginal woman when the Aboriginal
woman who'd been doing it for 10 years

342
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,610
at this time had told them I wasn't.

343
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:56,660
So when I went out to community to meet
community in the eastern suburbs and I

344
00:20:56,660 --> 00:20:59,310
mentioned my name, everybody knew my dad.

345
00:21:00,540 --> 00:21:03,550
So he was there helping me.

346
00:21:04,220 --> 00:21:05,699
Your dad saved my life.

347
00:21:05,739 --> 00:21:07,210
Your dad was my mentor.

348
00:21:07,270 --> 00:21:10,220
I remember listening to your
dad when I was 16 years of age.

349
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,140
Your dad helped start the Murrung
program, which is in education.

350
00:21:15,060 --> 00:21:22,165
So The path was hard, but I always had him
there, even to this day, you know, I went

351
00:21:22,165 --> 00:21:28,855
out, I remember when I got the, I had to
go in the North area to do it, that role,

352
00:21:28,874 --> 00:21:36,814
and Bamblett's, Atkinson's, Lovett's, I
had to introduce myself, your dad, your

353
00:21:36,814 --> 00:21:44,325
dad was the most Generous intellectual
warrior we've ever met in our life, he

354
00:21:44,335 --> 00:21:50,115
had been talking about reconciliation
to this day, Nicole Finlay, she's the

355
00:21:50,495 --> 00:21:54,544
CEO of Reconciliation Victoria, and
she said to me a couple of months ago,

356
00:21:54,544 --> 00:21:59,074
Jill, I went to Canberra for a forum,
and 15 people mentioned your dad's name.

357
00:22:00,295 --> 00:22:02,164
It's 23 years.

358
00:22:03,905 --> 00:22:08,514
So that is the thing that helped me
navigate this, these spaces is knowing

359
00:22:08,514 --> 00:22:16,085
that my dad, yes, his reputation, but he's
there helping me from the dreaming and the

360
00:22:16,085 --> 00:22:19,435
dream time on the path that I'm on now.

361
00:22:19,585 --> 00:22:25,185
So I have this warrior behind me and
he may not be here tangibly in this

362
00:22:25,185 --> 00:22:29,254
world now, like we are sitting, but
he's definitely in that dreaming

363
00:22:29,264 --> 00:22:33,375
dream time teaching me and guiding
me and holding me up when I need.

364
00:22:35,345 --> 00:22:39,465
Catherine: And it's interesting that what
you just mentioned there, those prominent

365
00:22:39,605 --> 00:22:46,584
Aboriginal names, that when you do mention
those prominent names, there is an instant

366
00:22:46,594 --> 00:22:52,764
recognition within the, the, the community
of, of where you fit in the jigsaw

367
00:22:52,784 --> 00:22:58,895
puzzle, because kinship is very, very
different to a Western or non Indigenous

368
00:23:00,904 --> 00:23:03,455
Aunty Jill West: So our kinship
systems, my aunties and uncles are

369
00:23:03,455 --> 00:23:07,585
my mothers and fathers and my cousins
are my brothers and sisters, but that

370
00:23:07,585 --> 00:23:09,625
doesn't always mean it's blood related.

371
00:23:09,945 --> 00:23:15,945
So I have uncle, uncle Shane Clark,
he's my dad, but he's along another

372
00:23:15,945 --> 00:23:19,114
line of the Apical Ancestors
and Bunurong, Louisa Briggs.

373
00:23:19,475 --> 00:23:24,255
So but it's my obligation to look after
him as a father, you know, because that

374
00:23:24,265 --> 00:23:31,215
kin, kinship System was so intelligent
and complex that we have to try and

375
00:23:31,215 --> 00:23:35,925
adhere to that in our Western world,
which when I teach, I talk about, you

376
00:23:35,925 --> 00:23:40,635
know, how do policies look at that,
that kinship system that my aunties and

377
00:23:40,635 --> 00:23:45,404
uncles and my mothers and fathers and
my cultural obligation to those people.

378
00:23:45,784 --> 00:23:50,925
And if I get denied leave, because I
need to look after in their eyes, my

379
00:23:50,925 --> 00:23:54,815
auntie and uncle, I have to resign
from work because I cannot say

380
00:23:54,815 --> 00:23:56,645
no to those cultural obligations.

381
00:23:56,645 --> 00:23:56,895
Thanks.

382
00:23:59,134 --> 00:24:00,745
Catherine: And that's the thing isn't it?

383
00:24:00,794 --> 00:24:07,774
Because from my understanding is that,
uh, the traditional or conventional

384
00:24:07,774 --> 00:24:13,364
way in which we view a family structure
is, you know, with the, you know,

385
00:24:13,504 --> 00:24:15,435
the mother and the father and then.

386
00:24:15,770 --> 00:24:20,899
The lineage that goes down from there
and, and from when I have actually had the

387
00:24:20,899 --> 00:24:27,730
opportunity to see a kinship tree written
out, uh, in, in, and it was actually

388
00:24:27,750 --> 00:24:31,079
done recently at the Venice Biennale.

389
00:24:31,389 --> 00:24:36,009
Uh, there was an Aboriginal artist
that wrote out his kinship tree

390
00:24:36,010 --> 00:24:38,870
that traced back for 60, 000 years.

391
00:24:38,900 --> 00:24:40,820
And it was so diverse.

392
00:24:41,725 --> 00:24:47,255
And not the, you know, Western
or non Indigenous way of viewing

393
00:24:47,995 --> 00:24:50,145
a, a kinship at all, you know.

394
00:24:50,405 --> 00:24:50,685
Aunty Jill West: And it's

395
00:24:50,685 --> 00:24:50,945
Catherine: like,

396
00:24:51,025 --> 00:24:55,145
Aunty Jill West: and that's that moiety
system that we had, you know, where our,

397
00:24:55,185 --> 00:25:02,355
you know, male A couldn't marry female B,
female D couldn't marry female E, male E.

398
00:25:02,355 --> 00:25:08,475
So, and it was like a, A quadrant with
four, a circle with four quadrants, and

399
00:25:08,475 --> 00:25:10,725
it could be up to 28 quadrants deep.

400
00:25:10,995 --> 00:25:12,264
And that was marriage laws.

401
00:25:12,755 --> 00:25:20,455
And that was, uh, totems, culture,
songlines, you know, law, land.

402
00:25:20,864 --> 00:25:23,605
And it was made up of that
and it's that complex.

403
00:25:23,605 --> 00:25:29,014
So when the Western world
came in and invaded, we, our

404
00:25:29,165 --> 00:25:30,875
mighty system was destroyed.

405
00:25:32,590 --> 00:25:35,689
Our people from the Stolen Generation
are finding out that they're

406
00:25:35,689 --> 00:25:38,780
married to their aunties and uncles
or their brothers and sisters.

407
00:25:39,370 --> 00:25:43,549
And that's, you know, it's not
just about land being taken,

408
00:25:43,550 --> 00:25:45,330
it's so much deeper than that.

409
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:52,669
You know, so navigating these two worlds
for our people is, is extremely hard

410
00:25:52,670 --> 00:25:56,360
before we even go to work socialise.

411
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,970
We're living in two worlds
before we walk out that door.

412
00:25:59,175 --> 00:25:59,715
And

413
00:25:59,715 --> 00:26:04,274
Catherine: the moiety from my
understanding was to ensure that

414
00:26:04,274 --> 00:26:08,264
there, it was a very sophisticated
system and it was to ensure that the

415
00:26:08,264 --> 00:26:10,407
genetics, you know, Yeah, that we

416
00:26:10,407 --> 00:26:12,874
Aunty Jill West: didn't marry
our, we didn't marry our cousins.

417
00:26:12,905 --> 00:26:14,314
Yeah, stuff like that.

418
00:26:14,324 --> 00:26:16,135
So that's, that's what it was about.

419
00:26:16,135 --> 00:26:19,645
And I do have a moiety, I could
probably send you if you want it.

420
00:26:19,645 --> 00:26:26,350
I do have a feed on moiety where it
explains that, that it, These laws

421
00:26:26,350 --> 00:26:31,850
allowed and disallowed marriages, the
levelling of punishment, rewards, you

422
00:26:31,850 --> 00:26:37,110
know, delineated totems, you know, and I
don't know if you can see it, all this.

423
00:26:37,209 --> 00:26:40,660
Catherine: No, but what we can do is we
can actually add it to the show notes.

424
00:26:40,970 --> 00:26:41,379
Yeah,

425
00:26:41,379 --> 00:26:42,279
Aunty Jill West: that
would be really good.

426
00:26:42,279 --> 00:26:42,879
People can read

427
00:26:42,879 --> 00:26:43,009
Catherine: it.

428
00:26:43,260 --> 00:26:43,710
Yeah.

429
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:44,220
Aunty Jill West: Yes.

430
00:26:44,405 --> 00:26:48,455
Yeah, because it says Moiti secured
social order, the caring of law,

431
00:26:48,485 --> 00:26:52,665
children, land, ceremony and elders,
and if broken, punishments were severe.

432
00:26:54,144 --> 00:26:59,604
Catherine: Yeah, and in certain
places still in Australia, uh, from my

433
00:26:59,604 --> 00:27:07,815
understanding, they do allow traditional
Aboriginal law to be followed alongside,

434
00:27:08,165 --> 00:27:10,295
you know, sort of Western laws.

435
00:27:10,335 --> 00:27:10,725
Yep.

436
00:27:11,100 --> 00:27:13,980
Aunty Jill West: Yeah, and some
of our people that are in remote

437
00:27:13,980 --> 00:27:18,470
communities that have no Western
interference, this, this is practiced.

438
00:27:18,740 --> 00:27:21,520
This is still very real.

439
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:26,935
And then in some states up north, I'm
pretty sure they will have Punishment

440
00:27:26,945 --> 00:27:31,455
laws, which could be spearing of the leg,
and they'll have a nurse there or police,

441
00:27:31,465 --> 00:27:35,215
and they'll all be together to be able
to, because part of those punishment laws

442
00:27:35,245 --> 00:27:40,205
too is, is where you, you stand in the
seat as an elder or community member.

443
00:27:40,205 --> 00:27:45,345
And if you don't perform that, it's based
on the laws from our ancestral spirits.

444
00:27:46,295 --> 00:27:51,095
So it's a law that has to be upheld
because it's attached to song lines.

445
00:27:51,544 --> 00:27:54,505
and stories and the way of living.

446
00:27:55,485 --> 00:27:58,025
Catherine: And maybe can we
just explain a little bit to

447
00:27:58,025 --> 00:27:59,505
someone who may not be familiar?

448
00:28:00,065 --> 00:28:00,355
Aunty Jill West: Yeah.

449
00:28:01,295 --> 00:28:05,375
Catherine: So I call you Aunty,
although we're not related, but

450
00:28:05,385 --> 00:28:10,494
for me, I know that it's a sign of
respect for someone who is a knowledge

451
00:28:10,775 --> 00:28:12,975
keeper of your cultural heritage.

452
00:28:13,225 --> 00:28:15,355
So that's why I call you Aunty.

453
00:28:15,715 --> 00:28:21,980
What about, uh, Songlines that you're
talking about and totems sort of, if you

454
00:28:21,980 --> 00:28:24,099
can give a brief explanation of those.

455
00:28:24,610 --> 00:28:28,440
Aunty Jill West: So songlines is
when, uh, we follow, and everyone's

456
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,389
different, you know, how many different
mobs we have, different communities.

457
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,720
So everyone's is different, but songlines
from what I've been taught is, is

458
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:44,350
that pattern, like, you follow the
songlines by stars, by land, by trees, by

459
00:28:44,370 --> 00:28:47,360
singing, you know, it's a, it's a story.

460
00:28:48,015 --> 00:28:51,075
So there's a, you could actually
put this on the podcast too.

461
00:28:51,075 --> 00:28:56,175
There's a, uh, song written for my
dad by an auntie of mine and uncle,

462
00:28:56,595 --> 00:28:59,145
and my uncle sings, A man wrote it.

463
00:28:59,145 --> 00:29:00,645
It's called Songlines of the Moon.

464
00:29:00,645 --> 00:29:00,735
Bird.

465
00:29:01,305 --> 00:29:05,295
And it's about the story of him
going back and being taken by his

466
00:29:05,295 --> 00:29:09,070
ancestors to where he belongs.

467
00:29:09,810 --> 00:29:13,265
So that song can, will explain songlines.

468
00:29:13,265 --> 00:29:15,725
It's like a story, a journey.

469
00:29:16,435 --> 00:29:19,074
And that's what our songlines are.

470
00:29:19,075 --> 00:29:24,885
With our totems, we can be born
with up to four totems, or, and

471
00:29:24,885 --> 00:29:28,275
they're either given to us, or
they come to us at a certain time.

472
00:29:28,654 --> 00:29:35,034
So say a woman's giving birth, and we
give birth in trees, and a kookaburra

473
00:29:35,035 --> 00:29:39,575
flew past as that baby's born, that
kookaburra would be that baby's totem.

474
00:29:40,660 --> 00:29:44,970
And in other communities, they may
be given four totems that reflect

475
00:29:44,970 --> 00:29:48,160
where they sit in their community,
and where their parents sit.

476
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,780
It can be very complex as well,
and I would never talk about anyone

477
00:29:51,780 --> 00:29:54,140
else's communities, only my own.

478
00:29:54,549 --> 00:29:58,809
And mine was a turtle, so when I found
out I was Aboriginal at 10 years old, I

479
00:29:58,810 --> 00:30:03,550
remember going to, I don't know, it was
I have this vision or memory of a river

480
00:30:03,550 --> 00:30:08,880
and a turtle come up to me, and at that
time when I was confused, and ever since

481
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,810
then, people gave me little turtles.

482
00:30:12,110 --> 00:30:14,440
Everywhere I went, there'd
be a turtle where I'd go to a

483
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:15,940
river and it'd come up to me.

484
00:30:16,230 --> 00:30:19,179
So the turtle is my totem,
and with totems, it's our

485
00:30:19,210 --> 00:30:20,690
strengths and our weaknesses.

486
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:22,450
We cannot eat our totems.

487
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,470
We protect our totems and
our totems protect us.

488
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,390
So I say, I don't need a psychologist.

489
00:30:27,450 --> 00:30:30,980
I've got a totem and they're
very important to who we are.

490
00:30:31,300 --> 00:30:34,620
We have family totems and
we have personal totems.

491
00:30:35,190 --> 00:30:38,470
So I say people from our stolen
generation and family that don't know

492
00:30:38,470 --> 00:30:43,290
where they're from, it's such a loss
because you know, the, the totems come

493
00:30:43,290 --> 00:30:48,280
at times when we're grieving, times
when we're at an event, happy event,

494
00:30:48,290 --> 00:30:50,489
sad event, and they will appear.

495
00:30:50,980 --> 00:30:55,280
And I could tell you so many stories
about totems, my totem, my nieces

496
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,369
totem, you know, the kookaburras behind
me is my dad's spirit animal, but

497
00:30:59,740 --> 00:31:03,920
it's still along the lines of a totem
that protects us and looks after us.

498
00:31:03,930 --> 00:31:09,269
So, and this is all part of our
dreaming and dream time that

499
00:31:09,270 --> 00:31:11,109
helps us with our grief process.

500
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,980
Catherine: And maybe could you, would that
be a good way to segue into the beautiful

501
00:31:16,980 --> 00:31:18,750
picture behind you and explaining it?

502
00:31:18,750 --> 00:31:23,950
Aunty Jill West: Yeah, yeah, so when Dad
passed away at 53, he left seven children.

503
00:31:24,349 --> 00:31:27,759
And within a couple of days,
a kookaburra visited all 77 of

504
00:31:27,759 --> 00:31:29,099
his children across Australia.

505
00:31:29,489 --> 00:31:31,580
So the kookaburra is Dad's spirit animal.

506
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,660
A friend of mine was cleaning her
mother in law's apartment who had

507
00:31:34,790 --> 00:31:37,570
unfortunately passed away and she
messaged me, Jill, I've got this

508
00:31:37,570 --> 00:31:39,100
most beautiful painting for you.

509
00:31:39,420 --> 00:31:43,120
And I'm like Better ask the family,
you know, don't steal off dead people.

510
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:44,170
And she's like, I promise.

511
00:31:44,540 --> 00:31:47,100
So she told the family of the
story of the seven children,

512
00:31:47,140 --> 00:31:49,349
Kookaburra, and him passing away.

513
00:31:49,350 --> 00:31:52,150
And they gifted me this painting.

514
00:31:52,189 --> 00:31:56,370
So dad married and had three of us there.

515
00:31:56,450 --> 00:31:57,110
You see?

516
00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:58,010
Yeah.

517
00:31:58,059 --> 00:32:04,850
And then, and then the little gap, little
gap there and had four other children.

518
00:32:04,850 --> 00:32:09,550
So they depict, you know, they depict us.

519
00:32:10,555 --> 00:32:14,935
Nearly exactly so the two kookaburras at
the first marriage and me and my older

520
00:32:14,945 --> 00:32:18,784
sister and we have challenges and don't
really talk and my twins in the middle

521
00:32:19,095 --> 00:32:22,995
going, I'm over you two and then my
brother's at the end and he's the only

522
00:32:23,024 --> 00:32:28,714
boy, six foot six, all his six sisters
and he's protecting and looking after us.

523
00:32:29,445 --> 00:32:34,535
So that is, that is that connection to
dreaming and during time and dad, you

524
00:32:34,535 --> 00:32:40,435
know, being there and our grandfathers
and ancestors that no one gets a

525
00:32:40,435 --> 00:32:45,965
painting that That depicts the family
so well, you know, without it coming

526
00:32:46,005 --> 00:32:48,365
from that dreaming and dream time.

527
00:32:49,755 --> 00:32:50,635
Catherine: That's amazing.

528
00:32:51,205 --> 00:32:56,015
And tell me, um, tell me a little
bit more about, you know, you're

529
00:32:56,265 --> 00:33:01,434
now sort of, you know, 23 heading
towards 26, you're going through a

530
00:33:01,434 --> 00:33:04,105
huge learning curve with your culture.

531
00:33:04,645 --> 00:33:06,065
Uh, and.

532
00:33:07,045 --> 00:33:10,265
What, what happens, were you
still in communication with

533
00:33:10,265 --> 00:33:11,755
your father at this stage?

534
00:33:11,975 --> 00:33:14,245
You had one son at this point in time?

535
00:33:14,945 --> 00:33:15,425
Aunty Jill West: Yep.

536
00:33:15,445 --> 00:33:18,755
So yep, still in communication
with dad to go visit him.

537
00:33:18,775 --> 00:33:24,315
When I had my breakup with my father,
son's father, dad, I lived with

538
00:33:24,315 --> 00:33:27,295
him and my step mum and sisters
and brother, they were only little.

539
00:33:27,295 --> 00:33:30,775
So my son was the nearly
age of my dad's youngest.

540
00:33:31,355 --> 00:33:33,195
And yeah, he, he.

541
00:33:33,345 --> 00:33:37,635
He was always there and my stepmum
always there for us when we needed it.

542
00:33:37,635 --> 00:33:41,225
And, you know, I'd visit
him and watch what he does.

543
00:33:41,235 --> 00:33:45,015
He'd still be teaching and talking on
the phone all the time to community and

544
00:33:45,015 --> 00:33:47,564
people coming to him and writing papers.

545
00:33:47,564 --> 00:33:52,914
He'd be just at his table writing papers
all the time and studying and sharing.

546
00:33:53,324 --> 00:33:54,624
So, yeah.

547
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,610
Up until that, I talked to him the
week before he passed away, and you

548
00:33:58,610 --> 00:34:00,240
know, he wasn't feeling very well.

549
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,630
They'd set mum, step mum and dad
separated, so he wasn't, you know, in

550
00:34:04,630 --> 00:34:11,390
a very good place, but he was trying,
and yeah, and, I was able to see

551
00:34:11,390 --> 00:34:12,930
him or call him whenever I wanted.

552
00:34:13,340 --> 00:34:17,200
It never felt the same, obviously, as
being that family unit, because when

553
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:21,789
your dad has another family, it also
affects you as a 13 year old girl.

554
00:34:22,129 --> 00:34:24,900
You know, I can't deny that,
but you do your best you can.

555
00:34:24,900 --> 00:34:28,639
I would always respect my step
mom and respect my dad and

556
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,400
everything, support my mom as well.

557
00:34:31,810 --> 00:34:36,270
So dad was always there whenever I needed,
if I need to ask a question, I needed

558
00:34:36,270 --> 00:34:38,480
some guidance, I needed to go in there.

559
00:34:38,905 --> 00:34:39,765
Always there.

560
00:34:39,765 --> 00:34:44,215
And then, yeah, when he passed away,
that was the difficult part about

561
00:34:44,225 --> 00:34:46,935
still being on my cultural journey.

562
00:34:47,055 --> 00:34:48,305
How was I going to do this?

563
00:34:48,305 --> 00:34:53,145
And then Chris Lewis came into my
life and, you know, it was like

564
00:34:53,255 --> 00:34:59,404
dad sent him to come and help me
become who I am today as well.

565
00:35:00,905 --> 00:35:05,775
Catherine: And tell me about that, that
sort of path you've walked since that

566
00:35:05,775 --> 00:35:11,275
time when your father died and then
coming into your life and then, you

567
00:35:11,275 --> 00:35:12,985
know, the work that you're doing now.

568
00:35:13,664 --> 00:35:16,225
Aunty Jill West: Yeah, so
I finished at Centrelink.

569
00:35:16,454 --> 00:35:22,170
Uh, I thought, It just got too
hard at Centrelink, like, there's

570
00:35:22,170 --> 00:35:24,550
too much demand put on our people.

571
00:35:25,010 --> 00:35:29,260
I had to look after, you know, a
lot of areas, and I just couldn't

572
00:35:29,449 --> 00:35:30,810
keep up and maintain that.

573
00:35:30,810 --> 00:35:35,129
And, you know, trying to help our
people navigate that Centrelink system.

574
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,930
With death and payments and children
and, you know, and I, I've got a

575
00:35:40,930 --> 00:35:43,790
lot of respect in the Victorian
community for me because I did

576
00:35:43,790 --> 00:35:45,600
everything I could to help our people.

577
00:35:45,950 --> 00:35:47,780
I just couldn't do it anymore.

578
00:35:47,850 --> 00:35:49,830
And I had someone else.

579
00:35:50,825 --> 00:35:54,595
Who'd had an Aboriginal business for
recruitment, asked me if I wanted

580
00:35:54,595 --> 00:35:57,435
to start working there, so as a CEO.

581
00:35:57,805 --> 00:36:00,874
So I ended up going there,
things didn't go very well, which

582
00:36:00,875 --> 00:36:02,604
is okay, you come out of it.

583
00:36:02,995 --> 00:36:06,065
And then, I don't know if you've
heard of Kyle Vandekuyp, he's

584
00:36:06,085 --> 00:36:07,634
the Olympic gold medalist.

585
00:36:08,355 --> 00:36:12,924
Very good friends with him and he asked
me to come over to a company that they've

586
00:36:12,925 --> 00:36:15,265
got a foundation called Kalara Foundation.

587
00:36:16,085 --> 00:36:19,305
So we help people, we helped
people get into housing.

588
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,710
jobs and I was a life skills coach.

589
00:36:22,710 --> 00:36:28,550
So I coached them and mentored them
to work, to live in housing and just

590
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,140
to support them with everything.

591
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,790
So I was back supporting community again.

592
00:36:33,399 --> 00:36:37,629
And at that stage, a cousin from
the Bunurong Land Council needed an

593
00:36:37,629 --> 00:36:40,730
office manager and he rang me and
said, Jill, do you want to come over?

594
00:36:41,050 --> 00:36:45,220
And I said, no, I'm okay here because
Kyle and the men that worked there, I

595
00:36:45,220 --> 00:36:46,950
was the only woman, but they were really.

596
00:36:47,570 --> 00:36:50,740
Really lovely men who supported me.

597
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:52,570
Kyle was the only indigenous man.

598
00:36:52,570 --> 00:36:56,320
The others were non indigenous, but
I was able to help support all of

599
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,439
them and with cultural knowledge.

600
00:36:58,439 --> 00:37:01,820
And my cousin rang again, he
goes, Jill, I really need you.

601
00:37:01,860 --> 00:37:04,860
So I spoke to Kyle and Kyle
said, Jill, this is my journey.

602
00:37:04,860 --> 00:37:05,870
That's your journey.

603
00:37:05,870 --> 00:37:06,750
You know, you can go.

604
00:37:06,750 --> 00:37:11,180
So I become office manager at Bunurong
Land Council for a little while, which

605
00:37:11,180 --> 00:37:13,050
is challenging as well, because that's.

606
00:37:13,485 --> 00:37:17,295
community and with our five ethical
ancestors as five different families.

607
00:37:17,855 --> 00:37:24,785
So I wasn't able to maintain that
stress of family and other families.

608
00:37:24,805 --> 00:37:29,065
So I thought I need to do
what I've always wanted to do.

609
00:37:29,104 --> 00:37:30,425
And that was to be a teacher.

610
00:37:30,455 --> 00:37:34,085
So I wanted to be a teacher my whole
life, but because I had my son so

611
00:37:34,405 --> 00:37:36,465
young, I wanted him to have everything.

612
00:37:36,465 --> 00:37:38,825
So I worked and I didn't,
I couldn't go to uni.

613
00:37:38,825 --> 00:37:39,335
I couldn't go.

614
00:37:40,010 --> 00:37:44,820
You know, study, cause I had to
work to support my son and we were

615
00:37:44,820 --> 00:37:46,430
on our own for most of his life.

616
00:37:46,590 --> 00:37:51,179
Um, so I wanted to give that to him
and I thought I'm just gonna, cause

617
00:37:51,180 --> 00:37:55,419
I trained at Centrelink, Chris Lewis
helped me become a facilitator.

618
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,729
So I ended up with another woman,
a Darwin woman putting together a

619
00:37:59,729 --> 00:38:03,260
package when I left Centrelink and
thought, I'll just see how I go.

620
00:38:03,260 --> 00:38:07,120
And yeah, got a few gigs and.

621
00:38:07,710 --> 00:38:11,610
Word of mouth got around and now
I have one of the most successful

622
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:16,970
consulting training businesses just
booked out, totally booked out from,

623
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,230
you know, till the end of the year.

624
00:38:19,810 --> 00:38:23,220
And I have my niece, my twin's
daughter coming along the

625
00:38:23,220 --> 00:38:25,570
road on this journey with me.

626
00:38:25,910 --> 00:38:29,229
Uh, she lost culture and now
she's found it through me and dad.

627
00:38:29,739 --> 00:38:36,499
So we facilitate two hour half day or full
days and it's not about guilt or sorry.

628
00:38:36,955 --> 00:38:39,095
Because no one learns in that space.

629
00:38:40,590 --> 00:38:43,980
It's about these stories I told
you about the seven Kookaburras.

630
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,190
It's that connection to
country and Dreamtime.

631
00:38:47,490 --> 00:38:50,449
It's as basic as what's the difference
between an acknowledgement and a

632
00:38:50,450 --> 00:38:55,409
welcome, and what do those welcome
and smoking ceremonies really mean?

633
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:57,810
The depth and the importance of them.

634
00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:59,670
What do the flag colours represent?

635
00:39:00,265 --> 00:39:03,955
Did you know that we had to have, we have
to have confirmation of Aboriginality?

636
00:39:04,545 --> 00:39:07,285
Not saying I'm Aboriginal, but
it has to say I'm Palawa and

637
00:39:07,285 --> 00:39:08,745
it has to say I'm Bunurong.

638
00:39:09,454 --> 00:39:14,415
You know, even to, you know, our
moiti, our kinship, our skin names.

639
00:39:15,104 --> 00:39:16,265
I talk about all that.

640
00:39:16,365 --> 00:39:20,974
I talk about intergenerational
trauma, stolen generation and the.

641
00:39:21,255 --> 00:39:26,705
impacts that are still happening today
and we have activities and we share and

642
00:39:26,705 --> 00:39:31,485
it's not only my voice that's important,
their voices are so important and I

643
00:39:31,485 --> 00:39:36,824
have met the most amazing non Indigenous
people through this journey that I know

644
00:39:36,875 --> 00:39:41,805
that we're going to be okay, that in
my grandson's lifetime he's going to

645
00:39:41,805 --> 00:39:44,019
be able to be proud and not be afraid.

646
00:39:44,610 --> 00:39:46,700
People aren't going to go,
but you don't look Aboriginal,

647
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:48,720
or aren't you all alcoholics?

648
00:39:48,890 --> 00:39:51,120
Aren't you all, you know, on drugs?

649
00:39:51,790 --> 00:39:55,460
I don't think those questions will
be asked by the time he's growing up.

650
00:39:56,260 --> 00:40:00,309
My generation, they're still being asked,
because we weren't allowed to use our

651
00:40:00,309 --> 00:40:06,385
voices, so now we At my generation, I
have aunties and uncles that are tired.

652
00:40:06,385 --> 00:40:07,715
They can't do it anymore.

653
00:40:07,975 --> 00:40:11,135
So we have to step up
now for our generation.

654
00:40:11,155 --> 00:40:17,704
So I teach in health hospitals,
big organizations, custom fleet,

655
00:40:18,055 --> 00:40:23,595
councils, local councils, and yeah,
it's just really diverse what I do.

656
00:40:23,635 --> 00:40:28,385
And I love it because I'm able to
talk about my dad every day and

657
00:40:28,385 --> 00:40:30,725
hear his voice and tell the stories.

658
00:40:31,084 --> 00:40:31,585
And that.

659
00:40:32,380 --> 00:40:34,500
is my grieving process.

660
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,460
You know, I hear his voice every
day that I train and I share

661
00:40:40,460 --> 00:40:42,370
his story and I see his photo.

662
00:40:44,460 --> 00:40:48,540
Catherine: And something that was really
beautiful, uh, that you were just talking

663
00:40:48,540 --> 00:40:55,080
about then, and you touched on in the
workshop that I did with you was that,

664
00:40:55,210 --> 00:41:00,810
that issue of guilt that, that people
have and, and, you know, in the workshop,

665
00:41:00,810 --> 00:41:05,449
I think, I don't think there was a dry
eye after we, we had all finished going

666
00:41:05,449 --> 00:41:11,539
through the process of holding the talking
stick and sharing our own experiences.

667
00:41:11,540 --> 00:41:16,180
But I really like your perspective
on your thoughts in relation

668
00:41:16,180 --> 00:41:18,390
to, about the fact that.

669
00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:24,490
You know, we're not responsible
for our ancestors and so, because

670
00:41:24,540 --> 00:41:29,759
as a, you know, white, white, non
Indigenous person, you can feel a

671
00:41:29,759 --> 00:41:31,440
lot of guilt about what has happened.

672
00:41:31,860 --> 00:41:32,230
And then

673
00:41:32,530 --> 00:41:35,060
Aunty Jill West: certainly in my
training, they all do Catherine,

674
00:41:35,070 --> 00:41:37,330
they all feel guilt, they all cry.

675
00:41:37,359 --> 00:41:41,800
And even when I say this is not a
space of guilt, they can't help it.

676
00:41:44,205 --> 00:41:47,405
And my dad said, Jillian, teach
with respect if you're ever going

677
00:41:47,405 --> 00:41:50,335
to teach, because I talked to him
about teaching, teach with respect.

678
00:41:50,335 --> 00:41:52,254
You don't know where anyone's come from.

679
00:41:54,355 --> 00:41:55,705
So that's what I do.

680
00:41:55,715 --> 00:42:01,915
We are not, we are not, we, non Indigenous
people are not the ones that did this.

681
00:42:01,915 --> 00:42:02,984
It was the government.

682
00:42:03,220 --> 00:42:07,320
The past mistreatment of the government
at the time, and yes, we were invaded by

683
00:42:07,350 --> 00:42:10,690
British, but it's not the people that are
sitting in my training that are coming

684
00:42:10,730 --> 00:42:12,890
from British heritage, their fault.

685
00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:16,449
So every day, every time I do a
training, we hold my message stick

686
00:42:16,449 --> 00:42:20,219
or talking stick, and I want people
to tell me where they're from, the

687
00:42:20,219 --> 00:42:21,779
best moment of their, of their week.

688
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:29,770
Not, I go by moments, not weeks or months,
and the heritage is so important because I

689
00:42:29,770 --> 00:42:33,650
say it's okay to say British and it's okay
to say Australian because where you come

690
00:42:33,650 --> 00:42:38,660
from is the most important piece of who
you are, doesn't matter about the history.

691
00:42:39,110 --> 00:42:42,900
You've always got to be proud
because it wasn't you that did this.

692
00:42:42,930 --> 00:42:45,580
And Australia has this
misconception that we think it's

693
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:47,950
them personally, but it's not.

694
00:42:48,370 --> 00:42:52,240
It was a, in my opinion, it was
a mistreatment by the government

695
00:42:52,240 --> 00:42:53,380
and the people at the time.

696
00:42:54,299 --> 00:42:58,570
I have that many non Indigenous
people in my life that I had, I

697
00:42:58,630 --> 00:43:02,190
train every day that come back to
me with stories about Kookaburras.

698
00:43:03,895 --> 00:43:05,225
It's unbelievable.

699
00:43:05,225 --> 00:43:08,435
I need to, I need to write a book
about it because the stories that

700
00:43:08,445 --> 00:43:12,755
they come back with after my training
or even a day before that they've

701
00:43:12,755 --> 00:43:17,075
seen a kookaburra and they've never
seen one before, uh, is unbelievable.

702
00:43:17,565 --> 00:43:19,305
And it's about reconciliation.

703
00:43:19,365 --> 00:43:22,915
That's, we can't do anything
without reconciliation.

704
00:43:25,025 --> 00:43:28,559
Catherine: And it really is that
sort of openness that I see.

705
00:43:28,820 --> 00:43:32,440
Think that you encourage that
we'll sort of pave the way for

706
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,240
this to happen in the future.

707
00:43:34,540 --> 00:43:39,540
And is, is what the work that you're doing
now, from what I've seen is just that,

708
00:43:39,630 --> 00:43:44,679
that openness and that not having that,
that grief or guilt associated with it.

709
00:43:44,699 --> 00:43:52,140
So, and that, and just that
ability to ask questions with that

710
00:43:52,150 --> 00:43:57,419
and learn without feeling like
a question, stupid, or because.

711
00:43:57,710 --> 00:44:00,610
The last thing that anyone
wants to do is be disrespectful.

712
00:44:00,870 --> 00:44:06,269
So, you know, from my experience in your
workshop, it was a very open and anything

713
00:44:06,269 --> 00:44:08,349
was, was on the table that you could ask.

714
00:44:08,349 --> 00:44:09,810
And that was very important.

715
00:44:10,389 --> 00:44:13,889
So I really appreciate
your, your openness really.

716
00:44:14,750 --> 00:44:16,500
Aunty Jill West: And I think
that comes from, I remember

717
00:44:16,570 --> 00:44:17,690
sitting at Centrelink and I.

718
00:44:17,830 --> 00:44:22,000
I used to have some of the most vulnerable
people, before I become the Indigenous

719
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:26,060
Service Officer, I used to have the most
vulnerable people sitting in front of me,

720
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:31,269
and I had the social workers were behind
me, so they would hear me talking, and

721
00:44:31,460 --> 00:44:34,870
like, I didn't realise they would hear
me talking, and I would make sure people

722
00:44:34,870 --> 00:44:39,830
had food, or I'd refer them to places if
they didn't have housing, so it was more

723
00:44:39,830 --> 00:44:45,170
than just putting their payment through,
it was a one on one connection, I, you

724
00:44:45,170 --> 00:44:48,130
know, it was never a It wasn't all fun.

725
00:44:48,130 --> 00:44:52,670
I did get threatened and things like
that, but most of the people I just

726
00:44:52,670 --> 00:44:58,540
wanted to help so that they didn't walk,
walk out feeling less vulnerable than

727
00:44:58,540 --> 00:45:02,629
they did before they walked in that door
and social work come up to me one day

728
00:45:02,629 --> 00:45:06,119
and I remember she said, Jill, do you
know what emotional intelligence is?

729
00:45:06,119 --> 00:45:07,900
And I said, no, I've never heard of it.

730
00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:08,320
She goes.

731
00:45:08,735 --> 00:45:10,825
You have emotional intelligence.

732
00:45:10,845 --> 00:45:11,615
And I said, what is that?

733
00:45:11,615 --> 00:45:14,765
And she said, it's the
ability not to judge people.

734
00:45:15,305 --> 00:45:21,054
It's the ability to see people just
as you are and that insight you have.

735
00:45:21,175 --> 00:45:22,564
And I actually thought about it.

736
00:45:22,564 --> 00:45:24,574
And I thought I've been
like that my whole life.

737
00:45:25,095 --> 00:45:26,865
You know, I've never judged people.

738
00:45:26,895 --> 00:45:28,905
I accept people the way they are.

739
00:45:28,905 --> 00:45:33,625
And I believe that is because that
was the way we were as people.

740
00:45:33,635 --> 00:45:34,605
My dad said.

741
00:45:35,925 --> 00:45:39,075
Remember what I said, it's not your
right to understand, but it is your

742
00:45:39,075 --> 00:45:40,925
obligation to accept difference.

743
00:45:41,445 --> 00:45:46,235
And he said, had we had the capacity
to do that, he believed no weapons

744
00:45:46,235 --> 00:45:47,965
of war would have ever been created.

745
00:45:48,115 --> 00:45:52,325
That he had a belief that the 200 plus
year war in this country has remained

746
00:45:52,325 --> 00:45:57,025
non violent due to the deep love of
human life that our Ancestors and

747
00:45:57,025 --> 00:45:59,425
people had the people of difference.

748
00:46:00,875 --> 00:46:03,605
And then he said, it wasn't
until our women and children were

749
00:46:03,605 --> 00:46:07,065
murdered and poisoned that our men
struck back with overt violence.

750
00:46:07,514 --> 00:46:10,675
And he said, don't point somewhere in
Victoria where someone spewed a sheep,

751
00:46:10,985 --> 00:46:15,824
get real about philosophy who wouldn't
protect their beloved future generations.

752
00:46:17,524 --> 00:46:18,184
So what strikes me

753
00:46:18,874 --> 00:46:26,122
Catherine: is that on that point is the
fact that I'm not sure how many cultures

754
00:46:26,122 --> 00:46:28,814
around the world have a specific.

755
00:46:29,075 --> 00:46:36,015
Welcome to this part of my country
and to cleanse spirits and make them,

756
00:46:36,105 --> 00:46:37,754
you know, welcome on the country.

757
00:46:38,315 --> 00:46:44,515
So just by that very act that is
embedded into your culture, you know, is

758
00:46:44,515 --> 00:46:46,765
saying that you're welcoming everyone.

759
00:46:47,435 --> 00:46:47,795
Aunty Jill West: Yeah.

760
00:46:47,845 --> 00:46:48,945
And that's what I talk about.

761
00:46:49,125 --> 00:46:52,905
Welcome to countries and smoking isn't
about us saying we give you permission.

762
00:46:53,475 --> 00:46:58,215
It's about going through country
and being protected and looked

763
00:46:58,215 --> 00:47:02,465
after to be able to come back as
well, protected and looked after.

764
00:47:02,495 --> 00:47:04,895
And it's in our DNA and it's
what we did traditionally.

765
00:47:04,895 --> 00:47:08,645
We didn't welcome and smoke white
people or non Indigenous people.

766
00:47:08,685 --> 00:47:09,825
Sorry, I hate saying that.

767
00:47:10,255 --> 00:47:11,835
We didn't do that traditionally.

768
00:47:11,865 --> 00:47:13,035
We did it to each other.

769
00:47:13,555 --> 00:47:16,505
Like a Wurundjeri person will come onto
Bunurong Country, we'd smoke them and

770
00:47:16,505 --> 00:47:22,215
welcome them, they'd continue through
safely, get rid of any bad jujus,

771
00:47:22,235 --> 00:47:27,034
heal them, cleanse them, and they can
continue through Country being smoked

772
00:47:27,034 --> 00:47:29,005
with the distinct different leaves used.

773
00:47:30,570 --> 00:47:35,360
And then if they saw another, another
Bunurong person through country, the

774
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,780
Bunurong person would go up to them,
smell that smoke, you're safe, keep

775
00:47:38,780 --> 00:47:41,950
going, you know, that's what it was about.

776
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:47,489
It was about respecting each other and
sharing each other's different cultures

777
00:47:47,489 --> 00:47:49,389
and going through country safely.

778
00:47:49,390 --> 00:47:52,889
And it means different things
to different communities.

779
00:47:53,409 --> 00:47:57,780
But for us, it's about being safe
and protected and continue your

780
00:47:57,780 --> 00:48:01,629
journey where old relationships are
reestablished and new ones are formed.

781
00:48:02,340 --> 00:48:05,900
You know, where we could and we
couldn't go to protect each other.

782
00:48:06,525 --> 00:48:10,805
Our laws, our songlines, our moiety,
it was, it was about all of that.

783
00:48:10,825 --> 00:48:12,185
It's about all of that.

784
00:48:13,745 --> 00:48:14,625
So yeah.

785
00:48:14,625 --> 00:48:16,385
And I, sorry, go.

786
00:48:17,295 --> 00:48:19,594
Catherine: Just something that
you mentioned earlier to Aunty

787
00:48:19,594 --> 00:48:23,245
Jill, just about the amount
of different language groups.

788
00:48:23,245 --> 00:48:28,015
So what I will actually include
is, is the language group map of

789
00:48:28,044 --> 00:48:29,884
Australia that has been produced.

790
00:48:30,165 --> 00:48:34,805
Because I think that gives a
great visual to just how diverse

791
00:48:35,185 --> 00:48:37,685
Australia was as a country.

792
00:48:37,755 --> 00:48:40,674
I, I think there was how
many language groups?

793
00:48:41,474 --> 00:48:45,084
Aunty Jill West: I think there's
750 different dialects and

794
00:48:45,085 --> 00:48:47,675
500 different tribal groups.

795
00:48:48,355 --> 00:48:49,995
Catherine: Yeah, and to see the map.

796
00:48:49,995 --> 00:48:50,045
You can

797
00:48:50,045 --> 00:48:51,395
Aunty Jill West: probably find out more.

798
00:48:52,225 --> 00:48:55,295
Catherine: Yeah, yeah, look,
to see the map is something

799
00:48:55,305 --> 00:48:58,584
that, uh, I always find amazing.

800
00:48:58,584 --> 00:49:02,054
It's just because it's just so diverse
and gives such an accurate picture.

801
00:49:02,530 --> 00:49:08,360
depiction of how diverse our country
was, you know, with the Indigenous

802
00:49:08,590 --> 00:49:09,460
Aunty Jill West: population then.

803
00:49:09,570 --> 00:49:14,040
Sorry, it's 500 different languages
and I think, I always get it

804
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:15,729
mixed up and I teach it every day.

805
00:49:15,769 --> 00:49:20,709
Well, my niece teaches it now, so
I will find out and let you know.

806
00:49:20,820 --> 00:49:20,860
That's

807
00:49:21,390 --> 00:49:23,866
Catherine: okay, we'll, we'll
put the map on the show notes,

808
00:49:23,866 --> 00:49:25,130
Aunty Jill, that's all good.

809
00:49:25,140 --> 00:49:29,520
Tell me, you spoke to your
father a week before he died.

810
00:49:30,029 --> 00:49:30,049
Yeah.

811
00:49:31,340 --> 00:49:32,730
Was his death expected,

812
00:49:32,850 --> 00:49:33,500
Aunty Jill West: or?

813
00:49:34,180 --> 00:49:37,690
No, he was, he wasn't a
well man most of his life.

814
00:49:37,690 --> 00:49:40,270
He was very overweight at one stage.

815
00:49:40,270 --> 00:49:41,410
He lost a lot of weight.

816
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:44,519
But my dad, and the stories
I've been told, you know, my

817
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,250
dad did drink and he did smoke.

818
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:48,859
So he had a lot of illnesses.

819
00:49:48,919 --> 00:49:54,680
But, you know, at 50, well, my
grandfather, his dad died at 63.

820
00:49:54,980 --> 00:49:57,890
So he died at 53, and it was unexpected.

821
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:02,720
He wasn't, you know, in hospital, he was
still working and teaching at the uni,

822
00:50:03,260 --> 00:50:06,340
and yeah, it was, wasn't expected at all.

823
00:50:06,340 --> 00:50:07,880
It was very unexpected.

824
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:14,190
Catherine: And he was obviously
very highly regarded with a funeral

825
00:50:14,310 --> 00:50:18,509
with over 500 people in attendance.

826
00:50:18,870 --> 00:50:25,240
I think from the footage you showed
us, uh, he was also at that time, as

827
00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:30,210
you mentioned, he was a philosopher,
he was published works, he was at

828
00:50:30,210 --> 00:50:37,029
university teaching, uh, he'd also
been on, I believe the ABC and

829
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:38,920
they'd done a documentary on him.

830
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:40,390
Had they at that stage?

831
00:50:40,390 --> 00:50:41,690
I think I saw some footage.

832
00:50:43,860 --> 00:50:45,930
Aunty Jill West: I don't know,
is there a documentary on it?

833
00:50:45,990 --> 00:50:47,090
I haven't seen it.

834
00:50:47,650 --> 00:50:50,310
Catherine: I just, maybe it might have
been just something on, maybe something

835
00:50:50,310 --> 00:50:52,120
like Four Corners or something like that.

836
00:50:52,450 --> 00:50:53,496
There was some

837
00:50:53,496 --> 00:50:54,123
Aunty Jill West: footage

838
00:50:54,123 --> 00:50:55,240
Catherine: of, yeah.

839
00:50:55,290 --> 00:50:55,869
Oh, I'll

840
00:50:55,870 --> 00:50:56,939
Aunty Jill West: have to look into that.

841
00:50:56,939 --> 00:51:01,279
But I do have a conference of him
talking for half an hour, 10 months

842
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,570
before he passed away, that I was
able to get a couple of years ago.

843
00:51:05,170 --> 00:51:08,780
And that was, another connection to
dreaming and dream time because I did

844
00:51:08,780 --> 00:51:12,210
a welcome to country at bunjil place
and the lady the council said is your

845
00:51:12,210 --> 00:51:15,940
dad era west and I said yes I heard
him talk the other week on the radio

846
00:51:15,990 --> 00:51:19,759
I'm like that's not possible and that
was when I wrote to the radio station

847
00:51:19,759 --> 00:51:24,355
when she told me what radio station and
I've got his conference and him talking

848
00:51:24,355 --> 00:51:27,825
for half an hour and the things he's
saying are the things I've been saying.

849
00:51:28,525 --> 00:51:32,055
I always said, you do not pursue elders
knowledge, elders knowledge pursues you.

850
00:51:32,055 --> 00:51:33,885
And I'm like, I don't even
know where that come from.

851
00:51:33,885 --> 00:51:35,255
And he says it in that.

852
00:51:36,125 --> 00:51:40,154
So yeah, there are, there is, and
there's a book inside Black Australia.

853
00:51:40,154 --> 00:51:42,955
It's got all of his poems
because he wrote poems as well.

854
00:51:43,415 --> 00:51:49,245
A lot of work everywhere that, you
know, his PhD or his thesis is online.

855
00:51:49,705 --> 00:51:54,340
And after starting to read that after
a long time, I, I realize it's his

856
00:51:54,340 --> 00:51:56,210
cultural knowledge that he's written down.

857
00:51:57,070 --> 00:52:03,109
So that's something that I use and go
through all the time to, to learn as well.

858
00:52:03,470 --> 00:52:08,369
So yeah, I think he's probably been on
documentaries and he, you know, that

859
00:52:09,130 --> 00:52:13,570
conference was at Lingalonga Farm where
Stan Grant, I think, owns that property.

860
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,540
So he knew Stan Grant really well.

861
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:17,536
He worked with Linda Burney.

862
00:52:17,536 --> 00:52:22,090
He worked with the other Minister
of Indigenous People, Ken Wyatt.

863
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:28,160
He, you know, he, he, He gave them
advice, you know, he worked with

864
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,330
them and yeah, very prominent.

865
00:52:30,340 --> 00:52:35,319
So I think that's why death
isn't really a reality to me for

866
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,200
him, because he's still with me.

867
00:52:38,370 --> 00:52:43,659
And that's what I think people, when
people die, I always say, I feel closer

868
00:52:43,659 --> 00:52:50,620
to my dad in death than I did in life,
because their spirit, their soul, whatever

869
00:52:50,620 --> 00:52:54,790
you believe in, is closer to you now,
because they can go wherever they want.

870
00:52:55,780 --> 00:53:00,190
They can just be there when you need
them, watch over you at times that

871
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:02,210
you need them or you don't need them.

872
00:53:02,770 --> 00:53:07,954
And yeah, they say death is permanent, but
to me, death is the celebration of life.

873
00:53:08,385 --> 00:53:13,395
Life, and you, you know what the
queen said, and you know, I, I'm

874
00:53:13,395 --> 00:53:15,415
not into all this, they're colonial.

875
00:53:15,415 --> 00:53:20,005
I follow the royal family because I think
it's just a different way of living.

876
00:53:20,325 --> 00:53:22,274
And she said, do you
remember what she said?

877
00:53:22,275 --> 00:53:27,684
Catherine grief is the love
that you felt that surprised

878
00:53:27,735 --> 00:53:30,245
that comes with loving grief.

879
00:53:30,775 --> 00:53:31,365
Right.

880
00:53:32,275 --> 00:53:34,135
I can get the exact words that she says.

881
00:53:34,135 --> 00:53:35,375
And I always.

882
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:40,350
I always think of that, about what
she said, because at that moment,

883
00:53:40,510 --> 00:53:45,890
the Queen actually gave me a
little bit of insight into death.

884
00:53:47,490 --> 00:53:48,940
I'll see if I can find it.

885
00:53:50,020 --> 00:53:51,000
Catherine: But it's true, isn't it?

886
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,600
You, you don't grieve something
unless you've loved it.

887
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:58,600
Aunty Jill West: Yeah,
that's what she said.

888
00:53:58,670 --> 00:54:01,020
Oh, here it is, a famous saying.

889
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:05,629
That's my ending.

890
00:54:10,250 --> 00:54:14,620
I'll find it for you and, and give it to
you, but it was such a powerful thing.

891
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:15,380
Yeah, include it in your notes.

892
00:54:16,650 --> 00:54:21,280
Yeah, it just made me realize, you
know, grief comes with the amount of

893
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:23,830
love you feel for that, that person.

894
00:54:25,110 --> 00:54:29,419
And if you don't love, you can't grieve,
and it's all part of a process of that

895
00:54:29,420 --> 00:54:33,609
life, and our dreaming and dream time,
although I say is life, birth and death.

896
00:54:35,495 --> 00:54:37,385
Catherine: Can you tell us a
little bit about that, Aunty

897
00:54:37,385 --> 00:54:42,115
Jill, about the Dreamtime and
how you explain that to people?

898
00:54:43,175 --> 00:54:47,834
Aunty Jill West: Yeah, so with my
view on dreaming and Dreamtime,

899
00:54:47,835 --> 00:54:52,785
I'll always say, you know, it's
different for every community.

900
00:54:53,055 --> 00:54:59,135
And mob and even person, uh, dreaming
and dream time is a continuous

901
00:54:59,135 --> 00:55:00,395
cycle of life, birth and death.

902
00:55:00,445 --> 00:55:04,144
That's the framework of our
people of all of our people.

903
00:55:04,175 --> 00:55:05,514
It's dreaming.

904
00:55:05,515 --> 00:55:07,725
Dream time is the same continuous cycle.

905
00:55:08,124 --> 00:55:13,345
So in death, a person
returns to their spiritual.

906
00:55:14,050 --> 00:55:15,410
Dreaming and Dreamtime.

907
00:55:15,980 --> 00:55:19,000
So sometimes when you can't say
the name of someone, it's because

908
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,790
you're calling them back to go
to their Dreaming and Dreamtime.

909
00:55:22,260 --> 00:55:25,950
And Dreaming and Dreamtime
is intangible and tangible.

910
00:55:26,330 --> 00:55:30,290
So when I talk about my dad and
he's in the Dreamtime, it's a living

911
00:55:30,290 --> 00:55:34,430
world that he's living in, it's like
he's back traditionally where he is.

912
00:55:35,335 --> 00:55:40,705
So he's teaching from the Dreaming
and Dreamtime, which is everything,

913
00:55:41,245 --> 00:55:43,735
it's tangible, intangible.

914
00:55:43,825 --> 00:55:48,145
So it's what, what I see now and it's
what I vision in the Dreaming Dreamtime

915
00:55:48,165 --> 00:55:53,165
by the fire with, you know, the, the
stars and the songs and he's singing

916
00:55:53,165 --> 00:55:56,324
and he's got my grandfathers there
and my uncles there and they're around

917
00:55:56,585 --> 00:55:59,295
the fire and they're talking men's
business and then they're doing their

918
00:55:59,295 --> 00:56:03,160
men's business and, you know, Women
are there doing their women's business.

919
00:56:03,540 --> 00:56:10,070
So the place that we go to in our dreaming
and dream time is just continuous.

920
00:56:10,660 --> 00:56:14,180
Our bodies have gone where they
need to go or where you choose.

921
00:56:14,180 --> 00:56:20,020
Like my dad was cremated, but
your, ancestral spirit and your

922
00:56:20,830 --> 00:56:25,050
spirit will go back to culture,
traditional ways of living.

923
00:56:26,410 --> 00:56:30,379
And that's, yeah, and it's
hard to explain it to people so

924
00:56:30,380 --> 00:56:31,900
that they really understand it.

925
00:56:31,900 --> 00:56:33,580
And like, I just keep going back.

926
00:56:34,240 --> 00:56:37,530
It's not your right to understand,
but your obligation to accept.

927
00:56:38,129 --> 00:56:40,560
And that's what I say,
different races of people.

928
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:44,220
We don't have to understand
why a Muslim person does what

929
00:56:44,220 --> 00:56:46,420
they do or wear what they wear.

930
00:56:46,420 --> 00:56:48,770
We just have to accept that
that's their way of life.

931
00:56:49,410 --> 00:56:55,185
So, When Dad's, do you want me to tell
you about the ceremony, Dad's ceremony?

932
00:56:55,525 --> 00:56:55,955
Catherine: Yeah.

933
00:56:55,975 --> 00:56:56,695
That'd be great.

934
00:56:56,695 --> 00:56:57,045
Aunty Jill West: Yeah.

935
00:56:57,475 --> 00:57:01,645
So when he passed away, we had his,
it was like a funeral, but it wasn't.

936
00:57:01,665 --> 00:57:08,515
So there was an open area at the,
the graveyard in Lismore, a cemetery,

937
00:57:08,534 --> 00:57:14,305
and he was in a coffin with a marquee
over an open coffin and everyone put

938
00:57:14,315 --> 00:57:18,275
things in that they wanted to, like
we put all our cards and our words

939
00:57:18,275 --> 00:57:22,344
and things in and people would come
up, about 500 people up talking to

940
00:57:22,345 --> 00:57:24,145
him and then he went and got cremated.

941
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:28,530
And when he got cremated, his
ashes were given to his children.

942
00:57:28,540 --> 00:57:31,890
So for seven years, we held onto his
ashes and they were passed around

943
00:57:31,890 --> 00:57:35,980
to his children because we just
weren't ready to let him go that way.

944
00:57:36,390 --> 00:57:40,790
And then an auntie, Aunty Patsy
Cameron, who's a, an elder in Tasmania,

945
00:57:40,790 --> 00:57:42,409
said it's time for him to come home.

946
00:57:42,910 --> 00:57:49,070
So our family in Tasmania organised a
ceremony where we were able to go up

947
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:53,620
a mountain called Blue Tear Mountain
that no one's gone up for 150 years.

948
00:57:54,300 --> 00:57:56,720
and take his ashes up there.

949
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:02,620
So we had about, I think, 50 family,
family there, uncle who wrote the song

950
00:58:02,630 --> 00:58:07,630
about, or who sung the song about dad and
auntie who wrote it, other aunties, we

951
00:58:07,630 --> 00:58:11,539
had clapping sticks and rocks and took
his ashes up to the top of the mountain.

952
00:58:12,030 --> 00:58:17,410
Now uncle had made a bark canoe,
so that for men's business, the,

953
00:58:17,795 --> 00:58:19,755
Men or boys went into a cave.

954
00:58:19,765 --> 00:58:26,655
So there was uncle, my son, my twin
sister's son and my brother and a cousin.

955
00:58:27,465 --> 00:58:30,664
And the boys went into this
cave and the women went over and

956
00:58:30,865 --> 00:58:34,044
sung and okered up, were crying.

957
00:58:34,044 --> 00:58:38,534
And, you know, I don't remember
the songs, uh, what they mean, but

958
00:58:38,534 --> 00:58:41,895
I don't need to, cause I felt them
and they'll always be with me.

959
00:58:41,935 --> 00:58:46,710
And about an hour and a half after
that, They transferred, all I know,

960
00:58:46,990 --> 00:58:50,250
what happened was they transferred
the ashes from the box to the

961
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,090
bark canoe that was made for him.

962
00:58:52,970 --> 00:58:55,849
When those boys come out of
that cave, they were men.

963
00:58:56,010 --> 00:58:59,930
It was, they changed, they were
strong, they were, there was something

964
00:58:59,930 --> 00:59:01,180
about them that were different.

965
00:59:01,630 --> 00:59:05,849
To this day, none of them have ever spoken
about it because it's men's business.

966
00:59:06,969 --> 00:59:11,279
So, I'll never know what happened in
that cage, cave, and nor will I ever ask.

967
00:59:11,309 --> 00:59:15,939
So, my son, my nephew, my
brother, and another cousin.

968
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:19,310
We come back down singing again.

969
00:59:19,580 --> 00:59:22,340
We went to a place called Ringer Room Bay.

970
00:59:22,700 --> 00:59:25,460
So Ringer Room Bay at the
point of Ringer Room Bay.

971
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,750
You've got the Islands of Tasmania,
so Flinders Island, big dog

972
00:59:29,755 --> 00:59:31,610
island, all the different islands.

973
00:59:31,610 --> 00:59:35,240
Cape Barron and at, we
were at the edge of there.

974
00:59:35,300 --> 00:59:36,530
We had a big bonfire.

975
00:59:36,980 --> 00:59:40,700
Uncle and auntie sung the song
about Songlines of the moon, bird.

976
00:59:40,700 --> 00:59:42,830
We all spoke about what dad
meant to us around a big.

977
00:59:43,155 --> 00:59:47,745
bonfire and then my brother
took the canoe that was on like

978
00:59:47,775 --> 00:59:50,195
sticks to the edge of the water.

979
00:59:50,635 --> 00:59:54,084
Now you know the Bass Strait,
it's massive, absolutely massive.

980
00:59:54,774 --> 00:59:58,515
My brother lit the canoe up
and it went up in flames.

981
00:59:59,185 --> 01:00:03,215
It hit the water again and went
straight to Flinders Island.

982
01:00:03,445 --> 01:00:06,275
It did not deviate from Flinders Island.

983
01:00:06,885 --> 01:00:08,805
So that was him going home.

984
01:00:09,214 --> 01:00:15,425
And that again is that Dreaming
Dreamtime culture that's so strong

985
01:00:15,445 --> 01:00:19,594
and important to who we were because
that canoe could have gone anywhere.

986
01:00:20,070 --> 01:00:23,390
But it went straight to Flinders
Island and we watched it go.

987
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:28,220
And that is part of the grieving
process that we know that he's gone

988
01:00:28,230 --> 01:00:31,890
where he wanted to go because he
had control of that because he's

989
01:00:31,890 --> 01:00:33,259
in the Dreaming and Dreamtime.

990
01:00:33,979 --> 01:00:35,849
He went, he wanted to go there.

991
01:00:37,730 --> 01:00:42,980
So our people are so lucky with our
Dreaming and Dreamtime and our culture.

992
01:00:44,470 --> 01:00:48,380
Colonization nearly wiped it all
out, but our people are so strong,

993
01:00:48,420 --> 01:00:53,150
resilient, kind, traumatized, you know.

994
01:00:53,820 --> 01:00:59,350
Substance abuse, alcohol abuse, all that
kind of stuff that comes with it, but we

995
01:00:59,350 --> 01:01:05,520
are still there trying to find our way
into our culture and our dreaming and

996
01:01:05,530 --> 01:01:08,039
dream time, which is embedded in our DNA.

997
01:01:08,180 --> 01:01:11,350
So, as long as our people are
connected to culture, I really

998
01:01:11,350 --> 01:01:15,000
think that's the 1 thing that will
save our people who are struggling.

999
01:01:15,550 --> 01:01:18,510
I always say connect our people to
culture, even if it's not their own

1000
01:01:18,510 --> 01:01:22,870
culture, connect them to someone else's
culture so we can embrace them and help

1001
01:01:22,870 --> 01:01:27,710
them be able to live their traditional
way of life in a Western, Western world.

1002
01:01:30,450 --> 01:01:34,279
Catherine: And the Dreaming, from
my understanding with what you're

1003
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:41,770
explaining, it really is a place that
Is always there where there's not a

1004
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:46,210
defined timeline or anything like that.

1005
01:01:46,210 --> 01:01:49,530
It's always there that you can
tap into and get strength from.

1006
01:01:50,229 --> 01:01:50,639
Aunty Jill West: Yeah.

1007
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:53,490
So dad said time is not of the essence.

1008
01:01:53,530 --> 01:01:54,700
It is the essence.

1009
01:01:56,085 --> 01:02:00,825
So it is the now, it's, people talk
about that mindfulness, you think about

1010
01:02:00,825 --> 01:02:04,235
now, you think about what we're doing
right now, instead of thinking about

1011
01:02:04,235 --> 01:02:08,245
what happened yesterday, or something
that may not happen in the future, the

1012
01:02:08,245 --> 01:02:13,194
time right now is the essence, and we
need to embrace this moment, the time

1013
01:02:13,194 --> 01:02:17,955
that we are at right now, and that's
what we do, we tap into the dreaming,

1014
01:02:17,955 --> 01:02:22,985
dream time at any time, because it's
there constantly, it never goes away.

1015
01:02:24,830 --> 01:02:29,640
Catherine: And I suppose that also links
into the fact that the concept, excuse me,

1016
01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:36,530
the concept of seasonal change and time
itself, when you think that time and how

1017
01:02:36,530 --> 01:02:41,590
we view it as a 24 hour clock and it's
measured by seconds, that, that is, and

1018
01:02:41,609 --> 01:02:44,609
how we view a calendar year, that's also.

1019
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:49,190
dictated by a European construct.

1020
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:54,629
Whereas, from my understanding, just
with working at the Royal Botanic

1021
01:02:54,629 --> 01:03:01,050
Gardens and looking at seasonal change,
that, you know, the Badawurrung people

1022
01:03:01,060 --> 01:03:05,660
looked at it like a seasonal calendar
according to the changes of the cycles

1023
01:03:05,660 --> 01:03:07,180
of what was happening in nature.

1024
01:03:07,500 --> 01:03:12,130
So I think that, you know, brings it
out to like a seven season year instead

1025
01:03:12,130 --> 01:03:17,340
of like what we have where we have a
very traditional European four seasons.

1026
01:03:18,020 --> 01:03:18,290
Aunty Jill West: Yeah.

1027
01:03:18,290 --> 01:03:21,310
So we have six seasons,
the Bunurong people.

1028
01:03:21,700 --> 01:03:21,990
Catherine: Yeah.

1029
01:03:21,990 --> 01:03:22,430
Right.

1030
01:03:22,479 --> 01:03:22,659
Yeah.

1031
01:03:23,290 --> 01:03:28,379
Aunty Jill West: And, and that, you know,
and that it's the way we live our life.

1032
01:03:28,699 --> 01:03:30,619
We traditionally lived our life.

1033
01:03:30,620 --> 01:03:34,930
So, you know, if a certain
constellation appeared, it was a

1034
01:03:34,930 --> 01:03:38,490
time to hunt a particular animal
or dig up a particular plant.

1035
01:03:38,900 --> 01:03:39,960
It was the way we lived.

1036
01:03:39,970 --> 01:03:44,540
Even the fishermen, they used
the flowering of the coast tea

1037
01:03:44,550 --> 01:03:49,269
tree in November to mark the
early season or the entry of the

1038
01:03:49,270 --> 01:03:52,690
snapper fish into Port Phillip Bay.

1039
01:03:52,750 --> 01:03:57,131
So it was And that's
still used as a guide now.

1040
01:03:57,131 --> 01:03:57,489
Yeah.

1041
01:03:58,750 --> 01:04:05,200
And even like, uh, When I went to
Alice Springs, the, uh, a traditional

1042
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:09,889
custodian told me that, you know,
at night they would sit in around a

1043
01:04:09,890 --> 01:04:15,730
fire and a eagle or hawk would come
down, pick up the coal, fly off.

1044
01:04:16,110 --> 01:04:20,349
And where, where that eagle dropped it
was where food and water could be found.

1045
01:04:20,349 --> 01:04:25,189
So they would follow that line of
that eagle or the stars, you know,

1046
01:04:26,099 --> 01:04:28,579
First Inventors is an amazing show.

1047
01:04:28,580 --> 01:04:31,020
But I don't know if
you've seen that, it's.

1048
01:04:32,285 --> 01:04:32,415
Yes.

1049
01:04:32,415 --> 01:04:32,635
Yeah.

1050
01:04:32,635 --> 01:04:32,854
Yeah.

1051
01:04:32,855 --> 01:04:33,175
Yeah.

1052
01:04:33,175 --> 01:04:38,465
And it's, you know, the way we
lived so different, you know, the

1053
01:04:38,465 --> 01:04:40,974
six seasons, not the four seasons.

1054
01:04:40,974 --> 01:04:43,485
And yeah, it's just beautiful.

1055
01:04:43,764 --> 01:04:47,994
And I just, yeah, I just love being
an Aboriginal woman, you know, even

1056
01:04:47,995 --> 01:04:52,845
though there's grief and there's loss
and you know, I just have to do it

1057
01:04:52,845 --> 01:04:58,115
for future generations and for my
ancestors so that people understand.

1058
01:04:59,740 --> 01:05:03,640
where we were, what happened, where
we are and where we want to go.

1059
01:05:04,935 --> 01:05:09,265
And not everyone, you know, we do have
our strong activists that are out there,

1060
01:05:09,485 --> 01:05:11,725
you know, and that, that needs to happen.

1061
01:05:11,725 --> 01:05:17,124
But we also need people like me to
be able to teach gently as well.

1062
01:05:17,145 --> 01:05:19,275
And we are such diverse communities.

1063
01:05:19,275 --> 01:05:24,155
Like, if people say to me, or do we
put, you under diversity and inclusion?

1064
01:05:24,185 --> 01:05:28,515
I said, no, we sit under our
own area because we have so much

1065
01:05:28,735 --> 01:05:30,364
diversity within our own culture.

1066
01:05:30,425 --> 01:05:33,634
So you need to separate those
policies or what you've got at work.

1067
01:05:34,045 --> 01:05:35,374
It doesn't come under that.

1068
01:05:36,385 --> 01:05:40,545
So it was, it's yeah, I found
that quote that the queen

1069
01:05:40,545 --> 01:05:42,485
said, I've been so straight.

1070
01:05:42,505 --> 01:05:45,385
She said, grief is the
price we paid for love.

1071
01:05:45,385 --> 01:05:46,315
So I kind of got it right.

1072
01:05:47,495 --> 01:05:48,585
Catherine: Yeah, that's great.

1073
01:05:48,775 --> 01:05:52,855
It is, it is because it only
comes hand in hand, doesn't it?

1074
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:55,300
Aunty Jill West: Yeah, it sure does.

1075
01:05:56,680 --> 01:06:00,870
Catherine: And tell me Ani, Jill,
have you talked about death with your

1076
01:06:01,410 --> 01:06:05,130
own children and your grandchildren
or is that something that you?

1077
01:06:06,799 --> 01:06:08,570
Aunty Jill West: Yeah, I've
talked to death, I've talked about

1078
01:06:08,570 --> 01:06:11,800
death with my son and my niece
and just what I want to happen.

1079
01:06:12,180 --> 01:06:14,059
I haven't got a will, which
I've got to do a will.

1080
01:06:14,310 --> 01:06:15,800
I don't know why we don't have wills.

1081
01:06:16,250 --> 01:06:18,680
And yeah, just that,
you know, I want to be.

1082
01:06:18,855 --> 01:06:20,185
Cremated, definitely.

1083
01:06:20,595 --> 01:06:25,615
Now my mum's mum, who my nana was very
close to, she grew up in Queenscliff,

1084
01:06:25,635 --> 01:06:30,365
so she was cremated and thrown over
the cliffs at Queenscliff, and my mum's

1085
01:06:30,395 --> 01:06:33,804
going to have the same, and I was going
to have the same, but I'm thinking I

1086
01:06:33,804 --> 01:06:38,335
want to just be on Bunurong Country,
so I've got to decide what I want done.

1087
01:06:38,424 --> 01:06:42,010
I always say to my son, And people
that when you talk to someone, make

1088
01:06:42,010 --> 01:06:44,940
sure you end the call nicely, because
you don't know what's going to happen

1089
01:06:45,420 --> 01:06:50,400
as make sure, you know, you're kind
and you say, I love you all goodbye

1090
01:06:50,409 --> 01:06:54,589
or have, you know, so I have spoken
about it, but I don't have a will.

1091
01:06:54,670 --> 01:06:59,420
My son doesn't identify as much as he
should because of the Western world and

1092
01:06:59,430 --> 01:07:01,360
he has white skin and it's his journey.

1093
01:07:01,370 --> 01:07:05,940
He needs to, you know, learn that
journey, but he knows my beliefs and

1094
01:07:06,180 --> 01:07:08,500
he's got culture embedded in him.

1095
01:07:08,500 --> 01:07:08,930
It's just.

1096
01:07:09,195 --> 01:07:10,665
When he's ready to open it up.

1097
01:07:10,665 --> 01:07:14,965
So he knows that I want a cultural
ceremony and I'll write it all down.

1098
01:07:14,965 --> 01:07:18,504
I'll do a will after this podcast,
actually, because it's important.

1099
01:07:19,555 --> 01:07:19,855
Catherine: Yeah.

1100
01:07:19,855 --> 01:07:21,335
You know, it's okay.

1101
01:07:21,435 --> 01:07:25,575
46 percent of people, you know,
only 46 percent have a will.

1102
01:07:25,575 --> 01:07:28,665
So, you know, you're in
there with the numbers.

1103
01:07:28,665 --> 01:07:32,315
Aunty Jill West: Yeah, because dad
didn't have a will dad had nothing.

1104
01:07:32,415 --> 01:07:33,639
So, you know, there was.

1105
01:07:33,820 --> 01:07:38,540
We had to rely on our aunties and
uncles for guidance and that dreaming

1106
01:07:38,540 --> 01:07:43,020
and dream time and the way that he was
to be sent off and things like that.

1107
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:47,849
So we were lucky we had that, our
elders to help us with that, because

1108
01:07:47,890 --> 01:07:50,920
if we didn't, I don't know what
would have happened with his ashes.

1109
01:07:52,110 --> 01:07:56,690
You know, my sister, my sister, my
twin's still grieving very heavily about

1110
01:07:56,690 --> 01:08:00,550
him and she wanted some of his ashes,
but my auntie said, we don't do that.

1111
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:04,620
We don't separate ashes, which is,
I wouldn't separate them either.

1112
01:08:04,900 --> 01:08:08,670
So that was something that she had
to, you know, that was part of more

1113
01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:10,449
grief for her as well, you know?

1114
01:08:11,469 --> 01:08:11,934
Catherine: Yeah.

1115
01:08:11,934 --> 01:08:12,280
Yeah.

1116
01:08:12,980 --> 01:08:17,320
And you're so right though, that
if you don't document it, you lose

1117
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:21,939
that cultural history and to know
what is the tradition to follow.

1118
01:08:22,505 --> 01:08:23,835
Aunty Jill West: Yeah, yeah.

1119
01:08:24,455 --> 01:08:26,135
So, so important.

1120
01:08:27,895 --> 01:08:31,575
Catherine: Is there, given your personal
experience, actually before I ask this

1121
01:08:31,575 --> 01:08:36,175
question, you know what I will ask is
just one reference that you were talking

1122
01:08:36,175 --> 01:08:41,940
about, how I might just get you to
explain the, When you were saying that

1123
01:08:41,940 --> 01:08:46,200
people, we don't mention their names,
sometimes families don't mention their

1124
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:49,280
name to stop them being called back.

1125
01:08:49,580 --> 01:08:52,740
So if you could just explain that a
little bit from your understanding.

1126
01:08:53,290 --> 01:08:53,580
Aunty Jill West: Yeah.

1127
01:08:53,580 --> 01:08:58,180
So from my understanding and what I've
been taught, some communities, when

1128
01:08:58,180 --> 01:09:02,850
someone passes away, you can't say the
name of that person for a period of time.

1129
01:09:02,850 --> 01:09:03,740
So it could be a week.

1130
01:09:03,740 --> 01:09:04,670
It could be six months.

1131
01:09:04,690 --> 01:09:05,400
It could be.

1132
01:09:05,575 --> 01:09:06,205
Forever.

1133
01:09:06,895 --> 01:09:10,565
Because when we say the name of that
person, we're calling them back and they

1134
01:09:10,565 --> 01:09:12,805
can't go to the dreaming and dream time.

1135
01:09:13,245 --> 01:09:19,925
So just say Jillian died, just say a
Jillian died in community, anyone's name,

1136
01:09:20,145 --> 01:09:24,724
it's named Jillian, had to change their
name for that period of time, either to

1137
01:09:24,724 --> 01:09:26,435
their middle name or their language name.

1138
01:09:27,705 --> 01:09:28,225
Catherine: Yeah, right.

1139
01:09:28,365 --> 01:09:29,995
Aunty Jill West: Because
you cannot say the name.

1140
01:09:30,365 --> 01:09:32,195
Now, it's so strict that.

1141
01:09:32,755 --> 01:09:36,265
For Centrelink, if someone passed away
and we needed to just cease the record,

1142
01:09:37,795 --> 01:09:41,535
I had to teach our customer service
officers that the Aboriginal person

1143
01:09:41,535 --> 01:09:45,575
would tell you the letters, like, and
you couldn't repeat that name back.

1144
01:09:46,735 --> 01:09:51,265
You had to actually write that name
and then not say it and then do

1145
01:09:51,265 --> 01:09:52,664
what you need to do on the record.

1146
01:09:53,235 --> 01:09:55,835
But with policies, what
does that look like for.

1147
01:09:56,850 --> 01:10:00,010
Not even policies, but Vic Rhodes,
just say one of those Jillians

1148
01:10:00,030 --> 01:10:02,060
needed to go for a driver's license.

1149
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:07,110
Does Vic Rhodes look at the name
that they're given culturally or do

1150
01:10:07,110 --> 01:10:08,139
you have to have your legal name?

1151
01:10:08,140 --> 01:10:10,890
Does that person have to wait to get
their driver's license for the period

1152
01:10:10,890 --> 01:10:12,489
of time the name's not being said?

1153
01:10:14,309 --> 01:10:16,199
Catherine: Wow, that's
really challenging, isn't it?

1154
01:10:16,835 --> 01:10:20,505
Aunty Jill West: Yeah, so it's
not in all communities and, but

1155
01:10:20,895 --> 01:10:24,585
it is in a lot of our communities,
like, you know, even for ever.

1156
01:10:25,035 --> 01:10:28,784
So anyone's name whose name was
in community was forever had to

1157
01:10:28,784 --> 01:10:30,195
be called another name forever.

1158
01:10:30,255 --> 01:10:34,025
So they lost their name because
they had the same name as

1159
01:10:34,025 --> 01:10:35,275
the person who passed away.

1160
01:10:36,020 --> 01:10:38,450
They had to be given another
name or take another name.

1161
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:44,130
And that's why we do have that in some
communities because and traditionally,

1162
01:10:44,130 --> 01:10:48,120
I believe that it would have been all
of our people that would have been the

1163
01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:54,239
same tradition because the Dreaming and
the Dreamtime is in every community.

1164
01:10:54,259 --> 01:11:00,060
It's not that basic law of Dreaming
and Dreamtime is with all community.

1165
01:11:00,060 --> 01:11:00,789
So.

1166
01:11:02,270 --> 01:11:02,799
Catherine: very much.

1167
01:11:03,850 --> 01:11:04,170
Aunty Jill West: Yeah.

1168
01:11:04,170 --> 01:11:04,290
And is

1169
01:11:05,480 --> 01:11:08,360
Catherine: that, that's really, thank
you for sharing that because that's

1170
01:11:08,370 --> 01:11:12,800
something that people do come across
on a regular basis in the news when

1171
01:11:12,810 --> 01:11:14,940
it's being culturally sensitive.

1172
01:11:15,390 --> 01:11:20,145
The question I was going to ask, um, was
given your personal experience, is Is

1173
01:11:20,195 --> 01:11:24,585
there any other advice or encouragement
that you would like to give to people

1174
01:11:24,865 --> 01:11:30,834
in relation to, you know, traditional
ceremony or, uh, attending someone

1175
01:11:30,835 --> 01:11:36,114
who's Aboriginal, their funeral,
anything along that line to provide

1176
01:11:36,114 --> 01:11:39,584
people with some insight about what's
the appropriate protocols to follow?

1177
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:40,060
Aunty Jill West: Yeah.

1178
01:11:40,620 --> 01:11:45,190
So if someone passes away in community
and you know what mob community

1179
01:11:45,190 --> 01:11:49,620
they're from, so just say someone
that you know passed away at Bunurong,

1180
01:11:50,030 --> 01:11:51,859
contact the Bunurong Land Council.

1181
01:11:51,880 --> 01:11:56,110
So contact the land councils or
medical services and find out their

1182
01:11:56,120 --> 01:11:57,860
protocol because they're all different.

1183
01:11:58,280 --> 01:12:01,170
So all you need to do
is ask the questions.

1184
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:03,620
If you don't ask questions,
you're not going to know.

1185
01:12:04,090 --> 01:12:04,940
And ask.

1186
01:12:05,155 --> 01:12:10,975
Just ask in a way that I'm talking now,
but medical services or land counsellors

1187
01:12:11,015 --> 01:12:15,885
will be able to give you the protocol
or process to go to that ceremony.

1188
01:12:16,175 --> 01:12:19,345
And I always say to people, you know,
don't turn up at someone's ceremony

1189
01:12:19,345 --> 01:12:23,284
you don't know, but invent yourself
in our culture, go to our gathering

1190
01:12:23,284 --> 01:12:25,525
places, go to our community days.

1191
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:30,010
Participate in NAIDOC National
Reconciliation Week, go to Welcome and

1192
01:12:30,010 --> 01:12:36,249
Smoking, sit with our people, learn
our culture, learn how to weave, learn

1193
01:12:36,249 --> 01:12:41,239
how to make clapping sticks, get a
healing, you know, we do didgeridoo,

1194
01:12:41,260 --> 01:12:47,530
not women, men play didgeridoo,
they do healings, you know, Google

1195
01:12:47,530 --> 01:12:49,230
and find out what's in your area.

1196
01:12:49,860 --> 01:12:54,930
And learn about who we are and you
will become so much richer because

1197
01:12:54,930 --> 01:12:59,480
I say to people, we have totems, but
you may have your own kind of animal

1198
01:12:59,480 --> 01:13:03,550
or something that resonates with you,
you know, that someone passes away.

1199
01:13:03,550 --> 01:13:06,479
And then all of a sudden there
was a flock of cockatoos and

1200
01:13:06,480 --> 01:13:07,559
then they keep coming back.

1201
01:13:07,610 --> 01:13:10,060
That's that person
coming saying, I'm here.

1202
01:13:10,110 --> 01:13:10,990
I'm still here.

1203
01:13:11,730 --> 01:13:12,610
You know, so.

1204
01:13:13,545 --> 01:13:17,605
Our culture is the most beautiful,
resilient, richest culture in the

1205
01:13:17,605 --> 01:13:23,185
whole world, as well as the longest
living culture, and embrace, embrace

1206
01:13:23,555 --> 01:13:30,435
that culture and walk with us and, you
know, your journey will become amazing.

1207
01:13:30,435 --> 01:13:31,724
That's what I always say.

1208
01:13:33,700 --> 01:13:35,510
Catherine: Thank you so much Aunty Jill.

1209
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:39,800
I think what we will do is we'll make
sure that we have the NAIDOC events on

1210
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:44,409
the show notes, uh, also anything for
Reconciliation Week there, and you know,

1211
01:13:44,420 --> 01:13:49,280
also the local gathering place, especially
on Bunurong Country, uh, so people can

1212
01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:51,359
find what's going on in their local area.

1213
01:13:51,810 --> 01:13:55,330
Aunty Jill West: Yeah, and I'll send
you Deb's song if you want to put that

1214
01:13:55,330 --> 01:13:59,030
up, I'm happy for you to put that up,
and Moon, someone's at the Moon bit,

1215
01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:00,880
and I'll give you the moiety sheet too.

1216
01:14:02,075 --> 01:14:02,975
Catherine: That'd be beautiful.

1217
01:14:02,985 --> 01:14:04,485
Thank you so much for being with us today.

1218
01:14:04,635 --> 01:14:05,185
No, thank you.

1219
01:14:05,655 --> 01:14:07,725
Aunty Jill West: No, thanks
Catherine for inviting me.

1220
01:14:07,725 --> 01:14:10,275
It was amazing meeting you
and thanks for everything that

1221
01:14:10,275 --> 01:14:12,205
you do for our people as well.

1222
01:14:13,244 --> 01:14:13,425
Thank you.

1223
01:14:13,425 --> 01:14:14,224
To support us.

1224
01:14:14,605 --> 01:14:15,595
No worries.

1225
01:14:18,025 --> 01:14:21,424
Catherine: We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead.

1226
01:14:21,765 --> 01:14:23,335
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1227
01:14:24,275 --> 01:14:28,545
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1228
01:14:28,545 --> 01:14:30,549
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1229
01:14:30,650 --> 01:14:34,230
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1230
01:14:34,230 --> 01:14:35,960
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1231
01:14:36,150 --> 01:14:40,289
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01:14:40,289 --> 01:14:42,010
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1233
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1234
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1236
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1237
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