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Libby: A woman fell from the height
of the square all the way down the

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stairs and cracked her head and
was totally unconscious at my feet.

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In that moment, the screaming started
and the people and the worried

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and her husband was in the toilet
still up on the square and mayhem.

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And she was non English speaking.

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But her son and daughter in law were
English speaking, so I was able to say

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to them, right now we have a choice.

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I don't know what's going to happen for
your mum, but we could sit and talk to

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her and hold her hand, or we can scream
and, you know, and I will support you

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to do whatever it is that you want.

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This is my invitation to you.

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And I stay in touch with that
son, and he, he just in that

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moment made a decision to trust.

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So we sat on the ground, and they
spoke to her in her own language,

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and they just were talking to
her, and just comforting her, just

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assuring her, assuring themselves.

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So the hysteria went from
hysteria down to this really calm,

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loving, Sitting on the concrete.

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Catherine: And what was the outcome?

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Welcome to Don't Be Caught Dead, a
podcast encouraging open conversations

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about dying and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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bring your stories of death back to life.

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Because while you may not be ready
to die, At least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations

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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.

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We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging, and extend

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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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Today we are speaking with the
founder and managing director

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of Natural Grace, Libby Maloney.

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Libby Maloney's role is to nurture
and develop her team and business

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as they strive to provide authentic,
sustainable and beautiful funeral care.

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So today we'll be actually
chatting about holistic death care.

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Now Libby, you describe yourself
as a holistic funeral director.

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Can you please explain what that means?

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Libby: Thanks Catherine, it's
lovely to be here with you.

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So holistic funeral care really lies
in the word, or that holistic word.

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So if we look at what that really
means, it's to look at the whole

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person in their whole context.

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In the entirety of their relationships,
how they've lived, what are their values,

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what are their principles of life,
what makes them laugh, what makes them

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smile, what's really authentic to them.

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So it's holistic in terms of how
we sometimes consider healthcare

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or any other holistic approach
to, to the human condition.

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So we coined the term
holistic funeral director.

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Because the world understands
the term funeral director, uh, we

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couldn't really move away from that.

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We really prefer the word guide, but
the world's not caught up to that

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and it doesn't Google very well.

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But we, so we needed to keep that going.

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And so, but we wanted to
say, how do we, how do we

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communicate to the, to the world?

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to the community that this is a model
of care, an approach to care that

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will really look at who you are, who
have, how has that life been lived

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and how is this end of life, death
care, funeral ceremony and return of

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the body to nature going to look like.

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So that's where we coined the term
holistic funeral director and it's

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now being used quite commonly by
other, um, holistic practitioners

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as well, which is lovely.

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Catherine: It's a really lovely title.

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Uh, it's, it sums it
up perfectly actually.

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And can you share with us, how did you
start or when did you start Natural Grace?

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Libby: So Natural Grace, uh, it shares
its birthday with Dying to Know Day,

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which I didn't realize at the time,
it's sheer coincidence at the time

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we both started in the same year.

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So that was really lovely.

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So we'll

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Catherine: just tell people what
Dying to Know Day is as well.

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Libby: Yeah, Dying to Know Day is a
national day of conversation around

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dying and death, of being prepared.

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Um, what would you do?

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What would you like?

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Do your family know your wishes?

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Really around what we call death literacy.

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And it's become a national day, the
8th of August, and, and people all

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over the country do wonderful events,
all sorts of things, from death

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meditations right through to big expos
and showing of films and conversations

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and asking people to make a commitment
as to what they'll do about their own

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preparation for the end of their lives.

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So it's a marvellous day, easily Googled,
Dying to Know Day, very straightforward.

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And so we happen to share our
birthday with him, which is just.

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Lovely for us.

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Um, so we've been, yeah,
it's just delicious.

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So we will be 12 this year.

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So we've been going for a while now.

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And what originally happened for me was
that I was, um, widowed as a young woman.

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I was 26 when my husband
died and our child was two.

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And it was a time where very much,
perfectly acceptable, but very

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conventional funeral care was really
all that was still, was being offered.

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So his, his funeral was
professionally organized.

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It was dignified.

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There was absolutely
nothing wrong with it.

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But what didn't happen was, he died.

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didn't come home and let
me care for him at home.

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He didn't, I don't have a lock
of his chocolate brown hair.

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He didn't have a natural burial.

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He didn't have a home funeral.

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He didn't have all these
things that I now learn to awe.

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modestly have created or have linked from
all the other great teachers that are

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possible and legal and are very beautiful.

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So that led me to quite some years
of study and research around how

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could this have been different?

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It wasn't that it was bad, but how could
it have been more reflective of him?

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So he was a poet and a great,
had a great stage presence.

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And, you know, he should have had a big
poetry slam in our back paddock is what

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should have happened for his funeral.

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But anywho, uh, so It, that was a
lot of study and research and talking

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and traveling and really finding out
what, what other cultures do, what

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other countries do, what happens in
our own Indigenous communities, where

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is really meaningful end of life
experiences and death care coming

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from, and how can that be different?

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And, uh, I'm an, I'm an accountant
by profession, so I had a business

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y background, and I had resisted
conventional funeral directing

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because I Don't tell anyone,
but it's actually pretty boring.

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Like the actual funeral directing, tick
the box, book the cemetery, you know,

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buy a coffin stuff is, is death event
management and with, and it's a very

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important part of our work, but it's
not the beautiful part of our work.

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So I resisted that for a long time
and then I just couldn't find it.

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So I woke up in the middle of the night
one night and said, Oh, I'll do it myself.

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So natural grace was born as quite
a pragmatic response, really, to a.

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Deep need in me to bring my
experience and my capacity and my

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love for other people to, to the
world through holistic death care.

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That was a long answer.

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Catherine: Sorry.

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No, no, no, no, it's a great answer.

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I love it.

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I'm intrigued in those early
days when you were doing that.

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initial research and traveling.

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Do you remember one thing that stuck
with you out of that, out of that

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time that you went, yep, this is
what I want to try and recreate?

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Libby: Yes, it was actually probably
the experience with one of your other

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guests, actually, the, the remarkable
Zenith Ferrago, who really shared

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from the generosity of her heart.

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She's, she's a very generous, um, human
being and, and many, many travelers

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on the journey of finding out, do they
want to come into this death care space?

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Contact Zenithin and, and make the
trek to Byron Bay and go and sit

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and have a cup of tea with her.

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And, and she shares.

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And what she really brought
into my consciousness was that,

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and it was just literally scribbled
on the back of a survey, it was

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that it's an integrated experience
that we have, that we live, we, we.

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We age, or we're diagnosed with a
life limiting illness, or there's

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trauma, accident, or, or something
happens, and all of a sudden, or

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gradually, we end up at end of life.

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And then we live with a life limiting
illness, then we sort of enter

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palliative care, or we're in an acute
palliative situation, and then we die.

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And then, uh, there's differing
experiences after death.

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There's immediate after death
care, what we call vigil keeping,

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being with the dead, and, and how
imperative that part of the work is.

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Then we have ceremonies to honor.

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Lives lived and then we have the return
of bodies to the, to the earth through,

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through burial or, or through cremation.

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And then we enter sort of
early bereavement time.

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So the accountant in me that, was
seeking to say, how can this be

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something that people can really access?

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That it's not just talked about in
beautiful settings, like even dying

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to no day events kind of thing, that
it's actually, you could hear, you

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could hear from someone about the
concept of say, shrouded cremation,

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or say, natural burial, and that
you could actually ring someone up.

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And go, I've heard about natural burial,
can you help me provide that service?

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So that link in that moment with her,
of, of sharing that wisdom, and that,

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that doesn't really belong to anyone,
that's ancient wisdom of understanding

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what it is to, to live and to die.

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But her capacity to communicate
that to me at that pivotal

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time was really remarkable.

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And it.

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It just aligned beautiful, beautifully
with the skills that I've got.

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And so then I was able to say,
okay, how can I actually be

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on the other end of the phone?

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And someone could bring me
up and say, I want to provide

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funeral care for my mum at home.

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I don't want to use a funeral director,
but I do need someone to pick her up

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from the hospital and bring her home.

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And can you help me with a coffin?

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And I wanted to be that person.

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So that that's really
where it really went clunk.

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This is possible for me.

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Catherine: From the way in which you're
explaining it Libby, for me it sounds like

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that it, it explains the process of dying
not just as one thing, perhaps a series.

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of different compartmentalized kind
of processes, I suppose, or steps.

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Would that, that be the, the way in, when

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Libby: you're

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Catherine: talking about
the vigil and then.

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Yeah,

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Libby: I don't know if they're
necessarily, I suppose they are

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compartmentalized, but they're really
just this beautiful natural flow.

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So it's, it's a, a projectory
that we all go through is,

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and we start when we're born.

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For the minute we're born, we're dying.

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Let's be frank.

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In fact, there's a, there's a.

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There's a commonly understood time
that a series of events would start

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to make us think what, what's best.

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What's going to happen for
me at the end of my life?

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And then hopefully, it's this natural
aging, but of course, it's commonly

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diagnosis of something awful and
NSA trauma can change that too.

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So we sort of move gradually through it.

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It's like, that is a, is a thing.

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And, and then we go, Oh, we're
going to get treatment for say, say

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you've been diagnosed with cancer.

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We're going to get treatment.

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Um, and, and many, many, many people,
you'd never say all, but many, many,

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many people would pursue available
treatments to them in the hope of cure.

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But when it becomes clear that cure
is not available, then there isn't

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anything more that can be done.

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Then we look to acceptance to comfort
to, you know, beautiful end of life.

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Experiences, some people talk about things
like bucket lists, that sort of stuff.

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And then that, that time living with a
life limiting illness is, is often where

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you hear of great change in people's
philosophical view or their capacity

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to say, I love you to their people,
to, to say, I'm sorry for things that

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might've happened, to say, I forgive you.

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Those, you know, concepts of the sort of
top five things of the dying or regrets

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of the dying, I think the book's called.

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And you look at those
really deep experiences.

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People will say, I want to be at home.

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That's imperative for so many people.

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And the evidence shows us that.

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So people explore all those things.

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And then, then we start to be really into
what, what we kind of call a dying time.

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So it's not a step one,
Now we're into step two.

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It's, it's, it's so fluid and people
go back and forth a little bit in

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that time where they do have just, I
wouldn't quite say remission, but you

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know, improvements in their health.

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And I mean, I know someone
that's been discharged from

226
00:14:08,935 --> 00:14:10,295
palliative care, got kicked out.

227
00:14:10,595 --> 00:14:13,514
So, you know, back you go,
you're too good, off you go.

228
00:14:14,574 --> 00:14:17,654
So, you know, you can move around a
bit in there, but you sort of move

229
00:14:17,654 --> 00:14:22,795
naturally through it, you know, and
then, you know, the acute dying time.

230
00:14:22,795 --> 00:14:24,895
So palliative care might be involved.

231
00:14:24,905 --> 00:14:31,055
There's a lot of, uh, a lot of focus on
pain management, on, um, psychosocial,

232
00:14:31,295 --> 00:14:37,315
you know, comfort, making sure that the
care team are really supported as well.

233
00:14:38,514 --> 00:14:39,895
And then we do die.

234
00:14:40,645 --> 00:14:44,865
And again, that, you're a hundred
percent alive until you're dead.

235
00:14:45,650 --> 00:14:47,820
You know, there's no, nothing
between those two things.

236
00:14:47,830 --> 00:14:49,470
You're either pregnant or you're not,
you're either dead or you're not.

237
00:14:49,790 --> 00:14:55,720
It's, you know, you, a hundred percent
alive, and your life is so precious.

238
00:14:56,230 --> 00:15:00,959
And then the death occurs, and that
sort of, like a surreal kind of, like

239
00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:06,040
a veil that lifts, and the person
flips through, and the, and the others

240
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,365
are left going, Oh, We're here now.

241
00:15:09,025 --> 00:15:12,975
So it's very magical
really and quite beautiful.

242
00:15:14,365 --> 00:15:19,004
And then from there we, we go
into immediate care of the body.

243
00:15:19,004 --> 00:15:22,404
The sacred and respectful
care of somebody's body is

244
00:15:22,404 --> 00:15:24,094
really, really important.

245
00:15:24,795 --> 00:15:30,535
But equally, we, we jump into sort of
the immediate Care and needs of the

246
00:15:30,535 --> 00:15:35,065
people that have loved that person and
where are they and how are they and what

247
00:15:35,065 --> 00:15:37,015
do they need in that immediate time.

248
00:15:37,834 --> 00:15:42,314
And then that, that time
we refer to as vigil time.

249
00:15:42,615 --> 00:15:49,264
So really from the point of death until
either the funeral ceremony or, or often

250
00:15:49,264 --> 00:15:53,425
people will keep their dead at home
for sort of three days and then they'll

251
00:15:53,465 --> 00:15:55,485
ask, could you come and take them into.

252
00:15:55,905 --> 00:15:58,204
into the our care, the
holistic funeral care.

253
00:15:58,704 --> 00:16:02,334
And, and then the ceremony might
happen a week later or something.

254
00:16:02,345 --> 00:16:04,655
You never quite know what that's
going to be, but there's this

255
00:16:04,965 --> 00:16:11,244
magical couple of days of attending
to the body and depending on the

256
00:16:11,254 --> 00:16:14,134
spiritual belief or religious belief.

257
00:16:14,134 --> 00:16:21,104
So the family and the person that's
died, there's this universal sense of

258
00:16:21,194 --> 00:16:27,280
escorting Um, while their soul sort
of separates from their body and that,

259
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:31,160
that we, if we keep them company and,
and stay in that space for a couple of

260
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:37,599
days, the, the natural and, and sort of
ethereal experience of their soul truly

261
00:16:37,599 --> 00:16:39,749
separating and going on to whatever it is.

262
00:16:40,285 --> 00:16:41,895
that the person believed in.

263
00:16:42,435 --> 00:16:44,015
And it does twofold.

264
00:16:44,064 --> 00:16:49,674
It satisfies the need and promises that
are often made that we won't leave you.

265
00:16:49,784 --> 00:16:53,194
We'll, we'll make sure our family stays
with you to the person that's dying.

266
00:16:53,975 --> 00:16:58,104
But it also meets needs that often
the living didn't even know that they

267
00:16:58,114 --> 00:17:02,435
had, which is to give themselves time.

268
00:17:03,115 --> 00:17:09,855
And over three days we see this, ah,
it's, it's, Breathtaking, what happens

269
00:17:09,855 --> 00:17:16,985
in three days, where the human condition
will move from devastation, often not

270
00:17:16,985 --> 00:17:22,244
even able to walk or talk, through to
lifting a head up, through to being

271
00:17:22,275 --> 00:17:26,754
able to have a shower, through to coming
back and washing and dressing the body,

272
00:17:27,134 --> 00:17:32,445
through to day three where they're
like, Oh, I'm actually, Okay, now, I

273
00:17:32,455 --> 00:17:39,084
don't need my person's body to be near
me in order for me to, to function.

274
00:17:39,084 --> 00:17:40,915
I'm ready to let their body go now.

275
00:17:41,994 --> 00:17:44,875
It's quite amazing to be witnessed to.

276
00:17:45,495 --> 00:17:45,964
Catherine: And is that

277
00:17:45,964 --> 00:17:48,904
Libby: something that
your team assists with?

278
00:17:49,175 --> 00:17:50,225
Mm, we do.

279
00:17:50,564 --> 00:17:55,415
And it would be significantly one of
our points of difference, if you like.

280
00:17:55,574 --> 00:17:58,855
I mean, people are in the
market looking for care.

281
00:17:59,405 --> 00:18:01,754
And, uh, if you're looking for.

282
00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:06,820
Guides, which is why we prefer the word
guide than direct expert, direct anybody.

283
00:18:07,110 --> 00:18:08,020
But if you're looking for.

284
00:18:08,629 --> 00:18:13,790
a guide, someone who can safely hold
your hand or walk beside you while

285
00:18:13,790 --> 00:18:16,100
you navigate those experiences.

286
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,420
That's, that's what we are as holistic
practitioners to be able to do.

287
00:18:21,050 --> 00:18:25,599
And they're all very carefully trained
people by both in house with us,

288
00:18:25,969 --> 00:18:30,020
uh, but also through preparing the
way, end of life door services and

289
00:18:30,020 --> 00:18:34,294
education who specialize, this is,
this is Their specialty of training

290
00:18:34,294 --> 00:18:35,885
people to be end of life doers.

291
00:18:37,245 --> 00:18:41,375
And then the next stage of that, if
you like, that progression through that

292
00:18:41,875 --> 00:18:46,824
integrated model is again a very gentle
step, and it just sort of happens where

293
00:18:47,125 --> 00:18:50,684
people start to put their head up and go,
Oh, I'm ready to organize a funeral now.

294
00:18:51,070 --> 00:18:56,030
So then, I mean, funerals are, uh, uh,
uh, uh, event management on speed, quite

295
00:18:56,030 --> 00:19:01,409
frankly, it's, it's how do we get, at the
moment we're organizing for 500 people

296
00:19:01,429 --> 00:19:06,749
to be in a weatherproof environment in
the Macedon Ranges with five days notice.

297
00:19:07,669 --> 00:19:11,629
You know, so it's just like, how do
we quickly pull this together, you

298
00:19:11,629 --> 00:19:13,620
know, and still have it be beautiful.

299
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,819
So, that's where I plead all
your listeners to please do

300
00:19:17,819 --> 00:19:18,850
some end of life planning.

301
00:19:19,250 --> 00:19:22,429
If nothing else, share what
they'd like for their funerals.

302
00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:26,599
And then the process, then you sort of
move through that ceremony, I mean, we

303
00:19:26,599 --> 00:19:29,960
could talk for hours just about ceremony
and ritual and how important that is.

304
00:19:30,519 --> 00:19:36,080
And then we move into returning
somebody's body back to nature is

305
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:42,690
an incredibly important part of that
integrated, you know, experience

306
00:19:42,690 --> 00:19:44,299
that we have at end of life.

307
00:19:44,299 --> 00:19:45,679
It's not, there's a,

308
00:19:47,820 --> 00:19:54,719
I hold really deep concern, uh,
there's, there's sort of, it's become

309
00:19:54,719 --> 00:19:57,279
a bit de rigueur to say, we'll just.

310
00:19:57,965 --> 00:20:02,055
Essentially, get rid of the body
through a direct, cheap, direct

311
00:20:02,125 --> 00:20:03,545
cremation, get rid of them.

312
00:20:04,205 --> 00:20:06,565
Really, sorry, I shouldn't say
that so disrespectfully, and I

313
00:20:06,565 --> 00:20:10,124
really don't mean to, but it's a
perfunctory role, let's just get

314
00:20:10,124 --> 00:20:13,874
them cremated, and then we'll have a
memorial service and all those things

315
00:20:13,874 --> 00:20:15,874
later, or maybe even nothing at all.

316
00:20:16,605 --> 00:20:20,025
And my heart actually hurts for that.

317
00:20:20,045 --> 00:20:22,839
I think that's going to create
deep complication for me.

318
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:29,030
in the next generation or the next
years to come of, of the lack of

319
00:20:29,030 --> 00:20:34,730
opportunity that comes to be really
deeply part of our death rights.

320
00:20:35,270 --> 00:20:43,530
And if we sort of outsource them so
extensively as to really just send the

321
00:20:43,530 --> 00:20:49,420
body off and maybe do something later,
I think we're missing the to integrate

322
00:20:49,420 --> 00:20:52,110
the loss deeply into who we are.

323
00:20:54,475 --> 00:20:58,014
So, I think returning the body to
nature is a really important part of it.

324
00:20:58,015 --> 00:21:03,395
There's a thing called witnessed
cremation, where you can actually see

325
00:21:03,405 --> 00:21:05,935
the coffin going into the cremator.

326
00:21:06,165 --> 00:21:10,054
Now, that might not be quite everybody's
cup of tea, but certainly, you know,

327
00:21:10,054 --> 00:21:16,899
it's Escorting to the cemetery or, or
fondly, you know, saying farewell from

328
00:21:16,899 --> 00:21:21,019
the end of the ceremony or some aspect
where, where you've been connected to that

329
00:21:21,019 --> 00:21:25,919
process, I truly believe is, uh, help,
is a health and wellbeing issue for the,

330
00:21:26,189 --> 00:21:28,899
for the surviving family and friends.

331
00:21:29,415 --> 00:21:32,325
And then burial, of course, there's
all sorts of things that, that

332
00:21:32,425 --> 00:21:35,935
whole ceremony and ritual, a whole
funeral can be just around a grave.

333
00:21:36,555 --> 00:21:39,225
And, and they're quite
spectacular and, and beautiful.

334
00:21:39,255 --> 00:21:44,865
And the, and the ritual of filling a grave
yourself, all these old traditional ways.

335
00:21:45,184 --> 00:21:51,345
When a, when a community fills the grave
and bury their own dead, uh, it, the,

336
00:21:51,385 --> 00:21:57,425
the energetic exchange between them and,
and the healing that you pretty much.

337
00:21:58,210 --> 00:21:59,650
will literally watch happen.

338
00:22:00,450 --> 00:22:05,110
Takes about 45 minutes and the spades
get passed from person to person and

339
00:22:05,110 --> 00:22:07,220
everybody does as many as they can.

340
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,070
And when they're ready for arrest,
they pass the spade to the next person.

341
00:22:11,410 --> 00:22:17,650
And this incredible weaving of
love and respect and help and

342
00:22:17,650 --> 00:22:21,820
the older people sit and just be
part of it and little kids help.

343
00:22:21,820 --> 00:22:27,299
And at the end, there's this incredible
pride from, say, way buried in it.

344
00:22:27,580 --> 00:22:28,480
them ourselves.

345
00:22:29,709 --> 00:22:33,780
And yet, only a hundred years ago, that's
exactly what would have happened anyway.

346
00:22:34,669 --> 00:22:37,040
So we've actually mucked
up so much of this stuff by

347
00:22:37,389 --> 00:22:39,540
sterilizing it and outsourcing it.

348
00:22:39,620 --> 00:22:40,000
Catherine: Yeah.

349
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,809
Can I take you back to that moment
when you were talking about that

350
00:22:43,809 --> 00:22:49,404
period of, we, we've used an example
of someone who might be terminally ill.

351
00:22:49,785 --> 00:22:57,095
And how do you then create it for
those families who have suffered an

352
00:22:57,145 --> 00:23:00,685
accident or a trauma that's unexpected?

353
00:23:00,925 --> 00:23:03,215
How do you take them on that same journey?

354
00:23:03,215 --> 00:23:04,595
Do you mind talking me through that?

355
00:23:04,875 --> 00:23:06,145
Libby: Yeah, it's a great question.

356
00:23:06,695 --> 00:23:10,015
And again, something sadly that
we do specialize in as well.

357
00:23:10,515 --> 00:23:19,770
Um, it's, With, with the right guide
and, and the, and the capacity of

358
00:23:19,770 --> 00:23:24,969
that guide to trust themselves.

359
00:23:26,090 --> 00:23:32,200
To be able to make suggestions, to be able
to assure a family that something's okay.

360
00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:36,620
So often these things are
best explained by a story.

361
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:44,279
So, uh, being with, with families in
intensive care and the heartbreaking

362
00:23:44,279 --> 00:23:48,740
decisions being made that the, the,
the support needs to be turned off.

363
00:23:50,159 --> 00:23:51,550
The care offered by our.

364
00:23:52,315 --> 00:23:56,735
you know, major hospitals and that
have got ICU units and the support

365
00:23:56,755 --> 00:24:00,635
that goes into families to get to
the point where that decision's been

366
00:24:00,635 --> 00:24:04,125
made is, is, is overwhelmingly good.

367
00:24:04,664 --> 00:24:09,344
It, you know, very, very few people report
that as being badly managed anymore.

368
00:24:09,534 --> 00:24:11,745
I think in the day it might've
been, families might've been

369
00:24:12,045 --> 00:24:15,865
excluded from a lot of that, but
that's not generally true anymore.

370
00:24:15,865 --> 00:24:21,765
Families are deeply included in, and,
and they are asked who do they need.

371
00:24:22,430 --> 00:24:27,140
So some families might say, I need
a priest to come, you know, or they

372
00:24:27,140 --> 00:24:33,179
might need the pastoral carer or
increasingly an end of life doula to

373
00:24:33,179 --> 00:24:34,699
come and play that role in their life.

374
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,700
And then, and then because there's
still, people aren't quite sure yet

375
00:24:39,700 --> 00:24:43,410
what they want, they'll say, Oh, I want
my holistic funeral director to come.

376
00:24:43,850 --> 00:24:48,300
So you get this moment to sort of
step into even a critical space like

377
00:24:48,300 --> 00:24:53,970
that and be able to, uh, if you like.

378
00:24:54,665 --> 00:24:56,155
Use your experience.

379
00:24:57,189 --> 00:25:03,220
As a holistic death care practitioner
to assess the situation really quickly

380
00:25:04,290 --> 00:25:11,100
and listen to what you're being told
and then draw on this sort of, if you

381
00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:15,729
like, sort of toolkit that we carry
around with us and say, what can

382
00:25:15,730 --> 00:25:22,749
I, how can I help right now to, to
bring the benefit of what would have

383
00:25:22,749 --> 00:25:24,099
happened if this death happened at home.

384
00:25:25,139 --> 00:25:30,950
So, had this happened at home, there
would have been time for massaging the

385
00:25:30,950 --> 00:25:34,689
person's hands or feet, or there would
have been time for cooking a delicious

386
00:25:34,709 --> 00:25:38,530
meal and giving them little tastes,
or there would have been time for

387
00:25:38,780 --> 00:25:40,689
whatever is meaningful to that family.

388
00:25:41,175 --> 00:25:47,475
So, in one particular situation, uh,
the, the, the wife of the man that had

389
00:25:47,475 --> 00:25:51,465
died, well, was, was still alive, still
on life support, but that decision

390
00:25:51,475 --> 00:25:53,725
had been made to turn his support off.

391
00:25:54,254 --> 00:25:58,495
She was quite, you know, I suppose
spiritual, if you like, so she, she

392
00:25:58,495 --> 00:26:00,294
was really attending to her needs.

393
00:26:00,775 --> 00:26:01,285
quite well.

394
00:26:01,805 --> 00:26:04,595
And, and it was her that
chose for me to come in.

395
00:26:05,775 --> 00:26:12,934
But the gentleman's dad was a much
more conventional, I'm going to

396
00:26:12,935 --> 00:26:14,965
say not hippie in inverted commas.

397
00:26:15,355 --> 00:26:20,094
And he was the, the poor man, he was
just struggling, really struggling as

398
00:26:20,094 --> 00:26:25,595
to how he could catch up so quickly
to what had happened to his son.

399
00:26:26,345 --> 00:26:31,995
And, and, and sort of watching all
these Rituals of the spiritual wife.

400
00:26:32,425 --> 00:26:37,875
And I was just able to come alongside
him and say, here's some cream.

401
00:26:37,885 --> 00:26:39,055
We just carry it in our kit.

402
00:26:39,155 --> 00:26:39,895
We've just got a cream.

403
00:26:39,895 --> 00:26:41,305
That's got a gold leaf through it.

404
00:26:41,305 --> 00:26:46,544
And the symbolism of the gold is, is how
precious this person has been to you.

405
00:26:47,424 --> 00:26:47,675
Catherine: Well, that's

406
00:26:47,675 --> 00:26:51,264
Libby: a, I was able to just
come alongside him and just say,

407
00:26:52,185 --> 00:26:57,035
here's this gold cream and I
know how precious your son is.

408
00:26:57,555 --> 00:26:58,975
And this gold represents that.

409
00:26:59,095 --> 00:27:02,165
And I'd wondering if you'd
like to put some on him.

410
00:27:03,635 --> 00:27:07,764
And you know, he just looked at me and
he couldn't speak, but, and so I just,

411
00:27:08,024 --> 00:27:13,295
I just lifted the sheet and exposed
the man's feet and just myself, just

412
00:27:13,385 --> 00:27:17,795
a little tiny bit, just massaged the
tips of his toes with this gold cream.

413
00:27:18,354 --> 00:27:19,344
And it took about.

414
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,490
Two seconds, and he gently pushed
me out of the way and took over.

415
00:27:24,530 --> 00:27:32,310
So in ICU, before any time had come, he
just massaged and anointed his son's feet.

416
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:41,600
And 45 minutes, he just was in a, like in
a trance of just whatever he was telling

417
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,750
him, whatever was going on between them.

418
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:49,630
And so in just a moment, you
can find the thing in trauma.

419
00:27:49,630 --> 00:27:49,723
Yeah.

420
00:27:49,723 --> 00:27:49,816
Yeah.

421
00:27:49,816 --> 00:27:49,909
Yeah.

422
00:27:50,090 --> 00:27:50,510
Yeah.

423
00:27:50,935 --> 00:27:51,275
Yeah.

424
00:27:51,965 --> 00:27:57,245
And another time was my, my business
partner, Jackie Morgan and I were

425
00:27:57,295 --> 00:28:02,215
displaying our, our offering at the
Melbourne Sustainability Festival.

426
00:28:02,955 --> 00:28:06,694
And it's down at the back
then it was on, on Bering Mar.

427
00:28:06,695 --> 00:28:10,704
So you come down off, off the squares,
off the big, those big concrete steps

428
00:28:10,745 --> 00:28:11,965
and you're running along the river.

429
00:28:12,525 --> 00:28:13,719
And I just stepped back.

430
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:19,330
Back from our stall to take some photos
and a woman fell from the height of

431
00:28:19,330 --> 00:28:24,009
the square all the way down the stairs
and, and cracked her head and was

432
00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:26,379
totally unconscious at, at my feet.

433
00:28:27,300 --> 00:28:28,950
And it was just.

434
00:28:29,425 --> 00:28:30,105
awful.

435
00:28:30,885 --> 00:28:35,155
But again, in that moment, you know,
the screaming started and the people and

436
00:28:35,155 --> 00:28:38,965
the worried and her husband was in the
toilet, still up on the square and mayhem.

437
00:28:39,625 --> 00:28:43,734
And, and I just, she was,
she was non English speaking.

438
00:28:43,825 --> 00:28:48,974
She was from, from China, but her son and
daughter in law were English speaking.

439
00:28:48,974 --> 00:28:52,505
So I was able to say to them,
right now we have a choice.

440
00:28:53,495 --> 00:28:58,805
I don't know what's going to happen
for your mom, but we could sit

441
00:28:59,065 --> 00:29:01,105
and talk to her and hold her hand.

442
00:29:02,020 --> 00:29:06,270
Or, we can scream, and, you know, and I
will support you to do whatever it is.

443
00:29:07,650 --> 00:29:09,200
This is my invitation to you.

444
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:14,940
And they just, and I stay, it's a
long time ago now, and I stay in touch

445
00:29:14,940 --> 00:29:19,070
with that son, and he, he just in
that moment made a decision to trust.

446
00:29:20,310 --> 00:29:26,530
So, we sat on the ground, and they spoke
to her in, in her own language, and they

447
00:29:26,530 --> 00:29:31,650
just were talking to her and just saying
goodbye, really, they didn't know that

448
00:29:31,650 --> 00:29:36,130
yet, but they were just comforting her,
just assuring her, assuring themselves.

449
00:29:36,499 --> 00:29:42,399
So the hysteria went from hysteria down
to this really calm, loving, sitting

450
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:48,640
on the concrete Moment when the amber
is arriving, what's going on, you know,

451
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:54,810
like in that moment, we could bring
holistic care or gentleness, kindness or

452
00:29:54,810 --> 00:30:00,190
calmness that you do generally experience
with a really well managed plan for

453
00:30:00,220 --> 00:30:03,159
end of lifetime into an acute setting.

454
00:30:04,619 --> 00:30:04,839
Catherine: And.

455
00:30:05,630 --> 00:30:07,220
What was the outcome for that woman?

456
00:30:07,580 --> 00:30:09,070
Libby: Yeah, that lady did die.

457
00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:12,550
She had a catastrophic head
injury from, from that.

458
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,979
And, but they got 10 days with her and
before they had to turn the machine

459
00:30:17,979 --> 00:30:21,120
off and yeah, they, they, it was awful.

460
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:22,280
Absolutely awful.

461
00:30:23,075 --> 00:30:28,975
But, you know, when, when her son
stayed in touch for a very long time

462
00:30:28,975 --> 00:30:33,334
after and occasionally still does,
it just goes back to that moment that

463
00:30:33,335 --> 00:30:37,065
he got to say all the things that he
wanted to say and be with her and offer

464
00:30:37,065 --> 00:30:40,594
comfort to her and minimise a little.

465
00:30:40,714 --> 00:30:42,205
I mean, they were all, they
were, they were going to be

466
00:30:42,205 --> 00:30:44,065
in for a dreadful experience.

467
00:30:44,065 --> 00:30:49,115
That was pretty obvious by how bad her
injuries were, but they had a young child.

468
00:30:49,645 --> 00:30:50,755
So he just said.

469
00:30:52,025 --> 00:30:57,125
We know that could have been
much worse if we hadn't had that

470
00:30:57,125 --> 00:31:01,665
opportunity to just sit quietly
with her in that, in that space, so.

471
00:31:02,365 --> 00:31:05,755
Catherine: That's phenomenal because
it's, it's that instantaneous fight or

472
00:31:05,755 --> 00:31:12,965
flight response and for you to be able
to say to a complete stranger and bring

473
00:31:12,965 --> 00:31:15,774
them down and calm them down is amazing.

474
00:31:16,865 --> 00:31:19,875
Libby: Yeah, it was a very
privileged place to be.

475
00:31:20,155 --> 00:31:23,765
And you know, there'd be many people that
would say the universe that that was her

476
00:31:23,765 --> 00:31:29,255
story and I was meant to be there, I don't
know, but, uh, we just, it just happened.

477
00:31:29,255 --> 00:31:33,285
And part of the other part of that
story is what Jackie witnessed.

478
00:31:33,355 --> 00:31:39,265
She was standing in the marquee and
her, her knowing that her place was to

479
00:31:39,265 --> 00:31:43,415
stay across and hold the space for me.

480
00:31:44,025 --> 00:31:45,465
to then hold the space for them.

481
00:31:46,205 --> 00:31:50,995
So yeah, it was, and I think
we've all got that capacity.

482
00:31:51,990 --> 00:31:56,980
You know, at, at one level or
another, what we've done is

483
00:31:56,980 --> 00:31:58,930
become petrified of everything.

484
00:31:58,940 --> 00:32:01,420
We've become so scared of death.

485
00:32:01,580 --> 00:32:05,020
We've become that, as you
say, that fight or flight.

486
00:32:05,070 --> 00:32:12,160
And we, and we've really been taught, I
think over quite some time now to fly,

487
00:32:12,350 --> 00:32:16,734
you know, that it's, that you protect
yourself first and, you know, and, and.

488
00:32:16,935 --> 00:32:20,505
Any emergency services people are
listening to this, they say, you

489
00:32:20,505 --> 00:32:23,025
know, they're the fight people, they
step in, they do it all the time,

490
00:32:23,025 --> 00:32:25,314
they're wonderful, wonderful people.

491
00:32:25,975 --> 00:32:29,365
But the general population,
we need to talk more.

492
00:32:29,505 --> 00:32:34,525
We need to decide how do we as
human beings want to be right now.

493
00:32:35,460 --> 00:32:39,540
You know, the power of now, what,
what do I want to happen right now?

494
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,410
How do I want to look back on this moment?

495
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:43,800
Did I step in or did I step out?

496
00:32:44,829 --> 00:32:47,540
Catherine: And tell me about
the importance of holding space.

497
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:49,050
What is holding space?

498
00:32:49,079 --> 00:32:53,620
Because that seems pretty important
in that, that situation because

499
00:32:53,620 --> 00:32:57,340
it seems to be a conscious
decision that you have to make.

500
00:32:58,220 --> 00:33:00,590
Libby: Yes, in a critical situation,
it's very conscious, you know,

501
00:33:00,810 --> 00:33:02,180
what am I going to do right now?

502
00:33:02,490 --> 00:33:08,830
But in, in general, So as, as human
beings, we're actually holding what

503
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,190
this concept of holding the space we're
doing for each other all the time.

504
00:33:12,830 --> 00:33:19,630
So it's, it's saying, I am here
and I will be here alongside you.

505
00:33:21,485 --> 00:33:29,855
with no conditions, with no intention
or need to fix, with no outcome that I'm

506
00:33:29,855 --> 00:33:34,675
tied to, is, is with a totally open heart.

507
00:33:35,925 --> 00:33:39,175
I will sit here with you in
whatever this is for you.

508
00:33:40,255 --> 00:33:45,415
And the best exploration around that
is the work of Heather Plett, and

509
00:33:45,425 --> 00:33:52,725
she is the absolute master educator
around that concept of holding space.

510
00:33:53,275 --> 00:33:55,875
And, and it's what we do professionally.

511
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,500
All the time and what we do privately all
the time, of course, any parent would say.

512
00:34:01,215 --> 00:34:02,875
that they know what that feeling is.

513
00:34:03,225 --> 00:34:06,995
We're holding the space of particularly
our adolescent children all the time.

514
00:34:07,275 --> 00:34:12,555
They explore and stretch and we're,
we're sometimes with bated breath,

515
00:34:13,075 --> 00:34:15,085
waiting and saying, I'm, yeah.

516
00:34:15,895 --> 00:34:17,945
Catherine: Sometimes it
involves counting to ten.

517
00:34:18,074 --> 00:34:18,524
Libby: Yes.

518
00:34:18,705 --> 00:34:20,484
A lot of the time it
involves counting to ten.

519
00:34:22,064 --> 00:34:22,864
Yes, darling.

520
00:34:22,874 --> 00:34:23,764
That's a great idea.

521
00:34:23,764 --> 00:34:24,725
You see how that goes.

522
00:34:25,315 --> 00:34:27,594
Anyway, uh, it's, it's.

523
00:34:27,775 --> 00:34:32,535
It's a beautiful concept and it's,
and it's, it's giving language to

524
00:34:32,535 --> 00:34:36,575
what hopefully we're, we're all doing.

525
00:34:37,675 --> 00:34:41,884
But particularly in end of life and,
and dying and, and death care in

526
00:34:41,885 --> 00:34:49,295
general, the, the temptation to come
in and rescue people or I'll make it

527
00:34:49,334 --> 00:34:55,584
easier for you by taking that away
from you, that is, that is damaging.

528
00:34:55,735 --> 00:35:01,465
You know, that I believe, and
professionally I believe, the kindest

529
00:35:01,465 --> 00:35:06,194
thing we can do and the most helpful
thing we can do is to come alongside each

530
00:35:06,195 --> 00:35:10,835
other and say, I'm here to walk with you.

531
00:35:13,985 --> 00:35:18,505
If I need to carry you at points,
that's fine too, but often just having

532
00:35:18,505 --> 00:35:26,104
someone to walk alongside us, we can
find the strength or the energy or the

533
00:35:26,104 --> 00:35:29,755
whatever to, to do what we need to do.

534
00:35:30,915 --> 00:35:37,855
And what we absolutely know to be
true is the families who provide.

535
00:35:38,450 --> 00:35:42,870
You know, the important and essential
care of their, of their dead and

536
00:35:42,870 --> 00:35:49,160
themselves overwhelmingly report back
to us with how satisfied they are,

537
00:35:49,540 --> 00:35:55,509
how, how proud they are, how proud
they know their dead person would be.

538
00:35:56,500 --> 00:36:03,360
And that makes a significant contribution
to their ongoing bereavement compared

539
00:36:03,370 --> 00:36:08,550
to families who say it was taken
off me, that the, you know, that

540
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,549
somebody else was in charge, I didn't
get what I wanted, it was dreadful,

541
00:36:13,740 --> 00:36:15,679
you know, those sort of experiences.

542
00:36:16,149 --> 00:36:20,550
They often carry that complication
to their grief forever.

543
00:36:22,750 --> 00:36:29,120
So, one of our KPIs, if you like, at
Natural Grace, is, uh, we come back after

544
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:34,340
a really big funeral day, and our practice
coordinator will be there waiting for us

545
00:36:34,350 --> 00:36:38,700
to welcome us back into the space, and,
and she'll say to us, how did you go?

546
00:36:39,379 --> 00:36:43,369
And with great joy and glee,
we'll say, we did nothing.

547
00:36:44,470 --> 00:36:47,740
And they, and she goes, yeah, and
sometimes there's champagne and gin.

548
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:48,620
Sometimes it's cups of tea.

549
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:51,570
It just depends on what day of the
week it is and how long the day's been.

550
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,490
And, and what we're
saying in that is we went.

551
00:36:55,980 --> 00:37:01,290
We held the space, but actually
that community did all the work.

552
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,720
So they filled the grave or they
conducted the ceremony or they

553
00:37:06,730 --> 00:37:10,200
carried the coffin or they made the
coffin in the first place, or they

554
00:37:10,670 --> 00:37:13,000
whatever, any number of things here.

555
00:37:13,490 --> 00:37:16,120
So our goal is that we can support.

556
00:37:16,830 --> 00:37:20,430
people to find their own way in it.

557
00:37:20,750 --> 00:37:24,660
And what we know now, after many,
many, many years of this approach

558
00:37:25,059 --> 00:37:30,270
to, to holistic funeral care, is that
that stands them in exceptionally

559
00:37:30,270 --> 00:37:32,529
good stead for the next step of that.

560
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,750
integrated journey that we were talking
about, which is their early bereavement.

561
00:37:37,220 --> 00:37:41,900
So they're coming off this really
firm platform of deep satisfaction,

562
00:37:42,019 --> 00:37:46,910
of pride, of deep respect, of
knowing they've done it themselves.

563
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:48,919
It's such a healer.

564
00:37:49,290 --> 00:37:49,940
It's amazing.

565
00:37:52,020 --> 00:37:53,240
Catherine: That's, that's amazing.

566
00:37:53,900 --> 00:37:57,080
Now, let's just change
it up a little bit Libby.

567
00:37:59,490 --> 00:38:04,030
I was wondering if you can talk me through
what ecurve funerals and green funerals

568
00:38:04,030 --> 00:38:05,419
Libby: are.

569
00:38:05,899 --> 00:38:06,470
I can.

570
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,560
So, our, our definition of
that is what we don't do.

571
00:38:13,110 --> 00:38:14,459
So, if you look at,

572
00:38:16,690 --> 00:38:21,140
at the kind of things that happen
in funerals, care conventionally.

573
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,020
And you might have noticed
throughout this, I've used two terms.

574
00:38:24,020 --> 00:38:27,370
One's traditional care and
one's conventional care.

575
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,900
Conventional care is what I would call the
funeral industry as it stands in general.

576
00:38:31,940 --> 00:38:35,360
It's not bad care, it's not anything,
but it is, it's conventional.

577
00:38:35,729 --> 00:38:41,810
Whereas traditional care to me is, and
to us at Natural Grace, is home, people

578
00:38:41,810 --> 00:38:44,130
dying at home, people being cared at home.

579
00:38:44,430 --> 00:38:49,075
The whole concept of a funeral parlor
came from The dead being laid out in

580
00:38:49,075 --> 00:38:52,575
the front parlor of people's houses,
and that's where it came, you know,

581
00:38:52,905 --> 00:38:58,515
that it's, um, family led, that coffins
are made by family, that the holes

582
00:38:58,515 --> 00:39:01,715
dug by family, the graves filled by
family, the ceremonies, you know, all

583
00:39:01,715 --> 00:39:05,125
those old, beautiful, old rituals.

584
00:39:05,125 --> 00:39:06,615
And that to me is traditional care.

585
00:39:06,824 --> 00:39:09,315
And that's what we are
committed to bringing back.

586
00:39:09,965 --> 00:39:15,600
So if you look at conventional care
in the funeral industry, Globally,

587
00:39:16,340 --> 00:39:21,840
there's a lot of things that happen
that, that don't have to, that have

588
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:23,740
a significant environmental impact.

589
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,904
And some of the examples
are embalming of bodies.

590
00:39:28,275 --> 00:39:34,245
That, that's a process that's
really, really, really needed and,

591
00:39:34,255 --> 00:39:36,035
uh, certainly not legally required.

592
00:39:36,475 --> 00:39:41,214
And, and came from a place I believe
of good intention in the conventional

593
00:39:41,215 --> 00:39:44,934
industry, which is to make dead
people look as nice as they can,

594
00:39:45,165 --> 00:39:51,245
or that they're just asleep or,
or sort of in a kind intention to

595
00:39:53,525 --> 00:39:53,985
ease.

596
00:39:54,455 --> 00:39:55,855
The fact that they are actually dead.

597
00:39:56,665 --> 00:40:02,365
So, there was also a belief that it
was hygienic and yet we know the World

598
00:40:02,365 --> 00:40:07,495
Health Organization says there is no risk
to the living human from a dead human.

599
00:40:07,874 --> 00:40:09,555
There's, that's just not true.

600
00:40:10,795 --> 00:40:11,515
Notable.

601
00:40:12,910 --> 00:40:15,580
I mean, there's a couple of listed
diseases that's the, there's

602
00:40:15,580 --> 00:40:16,890
always an exception to everything.

603
00:40:16,890 --> 00:40:20,649
But for the vast majority of the
population, there is no risk to

604
00:40:20,649 --> 00:40:22,550
the living from, from a dead body.

605
00:40:23,250 --> 00:40:25,089
So hygiene isn't a valid reason.

606
00:40:25,090 --> 00:40:29,879
And there's a list of other
reasons that I might get in trouble

607
00:40:29,879 --> 00:40:31,329
for if I talk about too much.

608
00:40:31,690 --> 00:40:33,480
So embalming is not
something that's needed.

609
00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:40,320
In many parts of the world, graves are
lined with concrete, so that's a whole

610
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,470
lot of resources that just aren't needed.

611
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:48,800
If you look at the construction, the, the
sort of, the life cycle of the materials

612
00:40:48,830 --> 00:40:54,440
and the worker conditions and the place
of manufacture of most coffins that are on

613
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,670
the market is, is, you know, significant.

614
00:40:58,455 --> 00:41:00,335
environmentally damaging.

615
00:41:01,295 --> 00:41:05,175
So, if we look at what is a, I don't
particularly like the word green funeral,

616
00:41:05,255 --> 00:41:08,065
but eco conscious or eco friendly funeral.

617
00:41:08,474 --> 00:41:10,675
We're talking about what we don't do.

618
00:41:11,075 --> 00:41:12,175
We don't embalm.

619
00:41:12,655 --> 00:41:16,635
We don't use coffins that are
full of, uh, glues and, and have

620
00:41:16,665 --> 00:41:18,335
come from a million miles away.

621
00:41:18,675 --> 00:41:20,875
We, we talk about natural burial.

622
00:41:20,885 --> 00:41:26,195
So a shallow, shallow dug grave where
there's lots of oxygen in the soil and

623
00:41:26,195 --> 00:41:31,554
the decomposition of the body is really
rapid, really clean and really low impact

624
00:41:31,565 --> 00:41:35,775
on the environment because the carbon
dioxide gases aren't produced from going

625
00:41:35,775 --> 00:41:37,905
so down so deep where there's no oxygen.

626
00:41:38,550 --> 00:41:40,080
We talk about natural grace.

627
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,530
We're proud to say we've
pioneered the practice of what

628
00:41:43,530 --> 00:41:44,870
we call shrouded cremation.

629
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:49,540
So conducting a cremation without
a coffin at all is simply a shroud

630
00:41:49,570 --> 00:41:51,859
bearer and the body wrapped in cotton.

631
00:41:52,529 --> 00:41:58,210
Uh, so yeah, so it's really, About
how, for us, how we run our business,

632
00:41:58,590 --> 00:42:04,740
so the main resources we need to use
are a fuel for our cars and utilities,

633
00:42:04,749 --> 00:42:10,619
so our electricity for keeping our
cooling going, and they're our main

634
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:16,490
things, so we offset those through
various programs, and And then the

635
00:42:16,490 --> 00:42:18,860
rest of it is, is just not using it.

636
00:42:19,370 --> 00:42:21,080
We don't have chemicals on our site.

637
00:42:21,490 --> 00:42:22,800
We don't embalm bodies.

638
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,930
We encourage shrouded
burial and cremation.

639
00:42:26,140 --> 00:42:31,709
You know, it's, it's really about
saying, how can I leave with as

640
00:42:31,710 --> 00:42:35,790
gentle a print, footprint as I
tried to make in my living time?

641
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:38,970
And, and that's, that's really what it is.

642
00:42:40,060 --> 00:42:44,240
Catherine: And you've also
embedded these principles into your

643
00:42:44,240 --> 00:42:49,829
sustainability policy and you've
also committed to the environment

644
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:51,860
through your business practices.

645
00:42:52,290 --> 00:42:58,009
I'm referring to your support of the
local land care group and 15 trees.

646
00:42:58,009 --> 00:43:00,100
Can you explain a little
bit about that support?

647
00:43:01,355 --> 00:43:06,625
Libby: So the, the support to land
care, we actually do, uh, through

648
00:43:07,105 --> 00:43:11,605
a financial donation, so an amount
of money per funeral that we feel

649
00:43:11,605 --> 00:43:15,014
we asked them, what was our best
way that we could best help them?

650
00:43:15,435 --> 00:43:18,745
And, and they said that they
need some funds for operating.

651
00:43:19,215 --> 00:43:20,865
So often it's very, um.

652
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:25,810
I'm going to say sexy or appealing to say
let's just plant more and more trees, but

653
00:43:25,850 --> 00:43:31,010
organisations actually need help to be
able to run those tree planting occasions.

654
00:43:31,390 --> 00:43:36,029
And so we just wanted to really be
used to them in a way like that.

655
00:43:36,610 --> 00:43:40,920
And then Fifteen Trees is a great
organisation and we recommend that

656
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:45,500
families access it often instead of
in lieu of flowers, it might be that

657
00:43:45,500 --> 00:43:49,530
people purchase a tree through them
to honour the person that's died.

658
00:43:49,860 --> 00:43:54,505
Again, big offsetting way of,
of, of offsetting uses is by

659
00:43:54,705 --> 00:43:56,565
the tree planting that they do.

660
00:43:57,105 --> 00:44:00,765
And it's run by beautiful people,
and it's just a pleasure to, to

661
00:44:00,765 --> 00:44:02,615
recommend them and align with them.

662
00:44:03,074 --> 00:44:07,165
But essentially Make sure we, we
link, yeah, in the show notes.

663
00:44:07,345 --> 00:44:07,655
Yeah.

664
00:44:07,875 --> 00:44:13,734
Colleen's just a great person and so
dedicated to, to what she's doing.

665
00:44:15,024 --> 00:44:18,965
Catherine: And so they're, they're
planting trees as a carbon offset.

666
00:44:19,925 --> 00:44:20,185
Yeah.

667
00:44:20,185 --> 00:44:20,475
Great.

668
00:44:20,635 --> 00:44:20,935
Yep.

669
00:44:21,145 --> 00:44:21,525
Yeah.

670
00:44:21,765 --> 00:44:22,045
Libby: Yeah.

671
00:44:22,045 --> 00:44:22,525
They're great.

672
00:44:22,955 --> 00:44:25,095
So, and are they out locally near you?

673
00:44:25,835 --> 00:44:29,425
I believe they do tree planting
all over the Australia, or you

674
00:44:29,425 --> 00:44:31,265
know many parts of Australia, yeah.

675
00:44:31,314 --> 00:44:31,995
Catherine: Yeah, great.

676
00:44:32,505 --> 00:44:34,805
Libby: So, you jump on their website
and you'll be able to get a sense

677
00:44:34,805 --> 00:44:39,480
of it, but it's, it's, It's more,
it's how accessible they are.

678
00:44:39,980 --> 00:44:46,330
So families and communities are
often looking for a means to express

679
00:44:46,610 --> 00:44:50,649
their condolence or to express their
gratitude for knowing that person,

680
00:44:51,049 --> 00:44:53,029
and they want to encourage that.

681
00:44:53,300 --> 00:44:57,350
Increasingly, communities want to do
something that they think the person would

682
00:44:57,350 --> 00:45:00,020
have liked, not what they want to do for.

683
00:45:00,730 --> 00:45:07,880
So the, the 15 trees feels this really
lovely, uh, invitation to, to community

684
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:12,590
to say, if your person loved nature,
here's a really great place to put

685
00:45:12,590 --> 00:45:17,850
your 15 or your 25 instead of maybe
doing something that, that didn't

686
00:45:17,860 --> 00:45:20,200
really align as much with that person.

687
00:45:21,065 --> 00:45:21,365
Yeah.

688
00:45:21,395 --> 00:45:22,205
That's beautiful.

689
00:45:23,125 --> 00:45:26,855
Catherine: Now, I thought we could
talk a little bit about your role as

690
00:45:26,865 --> 00:45:32,095
Vice Chair on the Board of the Holistic
End of Life and Death Care Australia.

691
00:45:32,575 --> 00:45:34,425
Uh, that's quite the mouthful.

692
00:45:34,455 --> 00:45:37,885
So Holistic End of Life
and Death Care Australia.

693
00:45:37,885 --> 00:45:39,884
So we call ourselves HELD.

694
00:45:40,065 --> 00:45:40,904
HELD, yes.

695
00:45:41,104 --> 00:45:44,245
I think I'll, I'll, I'll go with
the, the, the acronym of HELD.

696
00:45:44,775 --> 00:45:47,195
So what is the purpose
of the organization?

697
00:45:47,695 --> 00:45:48,615
Talk to me a little bit about it.

698
00:45:49,875 --> 00:45:56,135
Libby: So the purpose is to unify
and give voice to end of life,

699
00:45:56,155 --> 00:46:01,794
holistic end of life practitioners
and that is people such as end of life

700
00:46:01,804 --> 00:46:08,345
doulas, ourselves, holistic funeral
directors, uh, for palliative care.

701
00:46:08,705 --> 00:46:14,085
Workers, volunteers, uh, a lot of
celebrants are looking to practice

702
00:46:14,095 --> 00:46:19,645
holistically to expand their service into,
into life guidance and things as well.

703
00:46:19,994 --> 00:46:23,674
So it's really saying how do we,
how do we come together under one

704
00:46:23,675 --> 00:46:30,115
umbrella as a professional association
and, and, and give voice to, give.

705
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:35,880
guidance to create guidelines of
practice, code of conduct, standards of

706
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:42,070
care, uh, for people who are practicing
in, in the, in this field, because

707
00:46:42,070 --> 00:46:49,280
it's an increasing field of, of, of
professional practice and volunteerism.

708
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:50,150
It, it, it's.

709
00:46:50,715 --> 00:46:55,805
As we've got this aging population, more
and more people are saying, how can I

710
00:46:55,805 --> 00:46:58,265
be in service at this time of my life?

711
00:46:58,735 --> 00:47:01,735
And there's a, a growing, what's the word?

712
00:47:03,215 --> 00:47:07,265
A growing profession really
of end of life workers.

713
00:47:08,335 --> 00:47:11,810
And there's nowhere else that
really says we will lead.

714
00:47:12,830 --> 00:47:17,250
Or create a, create an association,
create a way for us to be united

715
00:47:17,250 --> 00:47:18,400
and connected to each other.

716
00:47:19,620 --> 00:47:22,499
So Held is, is an emerging,
it's, it's, it's very young.

717
00:47:23,190 --> 00:47:27,650
Uh, and the, the lead, the chair
is Helen Callinan, who's the,

718
00:47:27,700 --> 00:47:32,930
in my admiring opinion, is the
leading end of life educator in,

719
00:47:32,990 --> 00:47:34,880
in Australia, possibly the world.

720
00:47:35,310 --> 00:47:38,130
And she's doing a
marvellous job leading that.

721
00:47:39,015 --> 00:47:43,585
the group of us as an executive to how
we can be in service to professionals.

722
00:47:45,405 --> 00:47:50,525
In the olden days, we, we commonly
use the word like pastoral

723
00:47:50,525 --> 00:47:52,745
carer was a, was a known thing.

724
00:47:53,085 --> 00:47:59,625
Often that the institution of
churches, there was, there was a

725
00:47:59,635 --> 00:48:04,755
group of commonly women, but, but
men as well, who provided guidance

726
00:48:04,755 --> 00:48:06,695
and care and support at end of life.

727
00:48:07,310 --> 00:48:10,560
There was often someone in
that group who knew how to wash

728
00:48:10,570 --> 00:48:12,210
the body and lay out the body.

729
00:48:12,570 --> 00:48:16,640
There was, you know, the sort
of community service that came

730
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,380
from institutionalized religion.

731
00:48:19,420 --> 00:48:24,860
And as that, those groups have, have
sort of, well, essentially diminished,

732
00:48:25,149 --> 00:48:26,560
if not disappeared altogether.

733
00:48:27,870 --> 00:48:33,600
There's a, there's a gap in
communities of death literate and,

734
00:48:33,650 --> 00:48:40,150
um, death comfortable people to say,
I know how to navigate this space.

735
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,060
May I be in service to you?

736
00:48:43,260 --> 00:48:49,490
And it, and it sort of came naturally
or, or organically through the

737
00:48:49,660 --> 00:48:54,500
remarkable people that were part of
the, the fellowship or, or the, you

738
00:48:54,500 --> 00:48:56,630
know, in service groups of churches.

739
00:48:57,050 --> 00:48:58,240
And then we kind of lost it.

740
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:03,999
It's those, those people have
aged or died out themselves.

741
00:49:04,810 --> 00:49:04,980
Catherine: And the

742
00:49:04,980 --> 00:49:08,630
Libby: church's institutionalized
religion just isn't, isn't replenishing

743
00:49:08,630 --> 00:49:11,380
itself with that level of volunteerism.

744
00:49:11,870 --> 00:49:17,020
And the economy's not allowing,
particularly traditionally, women to be

745
00:49:17,110 --> 00:49:19,519
just solely at home and volunteering.

746
00:49:19,689 --> 00:49:21,220
So there's this big section that's gone.

747
00:49:21,860 --> 00:49:24,490
Then we've got, uh, an
incredible palliative care.

748
00:49:25,625 --> 00:49:31,275
community and professional, um, response
in our country, big gaps depending on your

749
00:49:31,785 --> 00:49:35,695
postcode lottery, but overwhelmingly when
it, where it is available, it's amazing.

750
00:49:36,595 --> 00:49:40,615
And these are highly skilled
clinical practitioners who have

751
00:49:40,615 --> 00:49:45,255
got caseloads that far exceed
anybody's reasonable timeframes.

752
00:49:45,735 --> 00:49:48,915
And so we, we, uh, we know there's a gap.

753
00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:54,510
Between not what's wanted to be
offered and by no means a criticism

754
00:49:54,510 --> 00:49:58,610
of palliative care in any way, that
it's not possible to meet the need.

755
00:49:59,350 --> 00:50:04,180
And so, the end of life doula in
particular is, is coming into that space

756
00:50:04,180 --> 00:50:09,450
and saying, we are a non clinical, we
never give medical advice or intervene

757
00:50:09,450 --> 00:50:13,010
in any way in the clinical or medical
advice given by palliative care,

758
00:50:13,390 --> 00:50:14,429
or the doctors or, or the nurses.

759
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:14,850
anyone.

760
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:20,050
But we're a social, emotional,
spiritual support resource and

761
00:50:20,050 --> 00:50:23,130
response to human need at end of life.

762
00:50:24,339 --> 00:50:26,779
And, and that, that
field is growing rapidly.

763
00:50:27,260 --> 00:50:31,880
And, and so Held came into the space
to say, how can we represent you?

764
00:50:33,025 --> 00:50:37,955
Uh, and so, yeah, it's a beautiful group,
amazing group of people, and some really

765
00:50:37,955 --> 00:50:44,355
great ideas coming around and a lot of
resource sharing, but also providing to,

766
00:50:44,645 --> 00:50:51,304
to classically palliative care, amongst
others, other health settings, that if you

767
00:50:51,365 --> 00:50:57,060
use a, an end of life doula or an other
holistic practitioner who is a registered

768
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:02,160
member of HELD, then you can be assured
that that person is being supported,

769
00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:05,909
that they've got guidelines, that they
are, you know, complying with the code

770
00:51:05,909 --> 00:51:09,770
of conduct, that they've got insurance,
that, you know, all those things.

771
00:51:10,269 --> 00:51:17,839
So, uh, it's an important piece of work
because good intentions alone don't

772
00:51:17,899 --> 00:51:24,130
give you a ticket to waltz into Peter
Mac and say, well, I'm here to help.

773
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,990
You know, everybody else in that
place has got insurance and a code

774
00:51:28,990 --> 00:51:33,819
of conduct and you know, guided by
standards of care and who are held

775
00:51:33,820 --> 00:51:36,729
account and there's a complaints
policy and, and all those things.

776
00:51:36,730 --> 00:51:38,670
That's just a reality of our time.

777
00:51:39,130 --> 00:51:45,959
And, and with deep respect, there's people
in the end of life community who disagree.

778
00:51:46,699 --> 00:51:49,279
They think that death care or
end of life care should be free.

779
00:51:49,905 --> 00:51:53,675
Anybody to anybody and within
families and within personal

780
00:51:53,675 --> 00:51:55,575
relationships, of course, that's true.

781
00:51:56,215 --> 00:52:01,515
But I think if you're purporting to
offer a service, then it's important

782
00:52:01,524 --> 00:52:06,214
that you come with the support of a
professional association that, that

783
00:52:06,225 --> 00:52:10,935
backs you up and, and not supports
you, but also holds you to account.

784
00:52:11,845 --> 00:52:12,875
Catherine: I agree with you, Bibi.

785
00:52:12,875 --> 00:52:18,655
You know, as someone who is not an expert
in death care, uh, that was the first

786
00:52:18,675 --> 00:52:23,905
thing that I thought that if I was going
to be referring anyone, I need to be

787
00:52:23,905 --> 00:52:26,175
referring them to industry associations.

788
00:52:26,204 --> 00:52:28,635
So there is that quality assurance.

789
00:52:28,664 --> 00:52:30,245
There is that code of conduct.

790
00:52:30,740 --> 00:52:36,810
They can also find someone locally that is
a member so they can reach out to someone,

791
00:52:37,170 --> 00:52:41,990
uh, that they don't have to hopefully, you
know, go too far to find someone, whatever

792
00:52:41,990 --> 00:52:44,260
their need be, uh, at whatever stage.

793
00:52:44,690 --> 00:52:47,100
So, you know, I totally,
totally support that.

794
00:52:47,779 --> 00:52:51,740
Now tell me, you offer specialized
funeral care for infants.

795
00:52:52,860 --> 00:52:55,349
How has all of that came about?

796
00:52:55,740 --> 00:53:01,500
And, and talk me through the, the care
and, and, and what is the specialized care

797
00:53:01,500 --> 00:53:03,780
that's offered when you look at infants?

798
00:53:04,170 --> 00:53:05,360
Libby: Yeah, yeah.

799
00:53:06,350 --> 00:53:08,020
There is different types of grief.

800
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:09,859
There just is.

801
00:53:10,515 --> 00:53:17,805
And the grief we experience when an elder
dies, who's lived a big, long, full, full

802
00:53:17,805 --> 00:53:24,225
of challenges, full of joys, full of ups
and downs life, we're, we're in a place

803
00:53:24,225 --> 00:53:26,205
of being able to gently let them go.

804
00:53:27,155 --> 00:53:34,049
And that grief is, is, is fairly
manageable for, for, for us as people.

805
00:53:35,460 --> 00:53:41,070
And then you, you, not everything I
say is for everybody, of course, but

806
00:53:41,100 --> 00:53:47,780
in general people can, can grieve
their elders relatively comfortably.

807
00:53:49,860 --> 00:53:56,800
When you have sudden death at any age,
but in the adult population in particular,

808
00:53:57,540 --> 00:54:01,810
there's a level of trauma that goes
alongside or can be a level of trauma.

809
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,919
So what's defined as a traumatic
death is quite different to

810
00:54:04,919 --> 00:54:06,419
what's defined as a sudden death.

811
00:54:07,289 --> 00:54:13,260
So traumatic death often involves violence
or negligence or some other factor.

812
00:54:13,650 --> 00:54:15,040
Whereas a sudden death can be.

813
00:54:15,285 --> 00:54:19,935
your class six sort of has a heart
attack and die, awful and sad.

814
00:54:20,315 --> 00:54:24,344
But it's not because someone else
did something wrong, like a car

815
00:54:24,344 --> 00:54:29,934
incident or medical negligence or,
you know, suicide is another layer.

816
00:54:30,295 --> 00:54:34,865
So we do respond differently
to different death experiences.

817
00:54:35,435 --> 00:54:44,080
And when babies die, When pregnancies
are lost, the grief experience and the

818
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:50,560
response of, of parents, young parents
often, is, is a different form of, of

819
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:56,589
grief and a different form of response
and the loss is multifaceted because

820
00:54:57,270 --> 00:55:02,076
not only has the pregnancy been lost,
if you like, and the The theme of

821
00:55:02,076 --> 00:55:06,785
the present is The hopes and dreams
of the future have also been lost.

822
00:55:07,145 --> 00:55:10,884
The vision that was held
for how this family unit was

823
00:55:10,884 --> 00:55:13,005
going to be created is lost.

824
00:55:13,945 --> 00:55:19,205
And depending on the stage of pregnancy,
there's, and this is just, this is solely

825
00:55:19,205 --> 00:55:21,415
my experience and my personal opinion.

826
00:55:21,415 --> 00:55:26,720
I don't, this is not based in any
medical or clinical, Evidence, this is,

827
00:55:27,910 --> 00:55:33,590
um, what I think, there's, there's a
surreal point in pregnancies that I've

828
00:55:33,590 --> 00:55:41,120
seen where baby, if you like, is the
pregnancy of the, of the person, whether

829
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:47,949
it be the mother or, or both parents, and
often of a whole family, bigger family.

830
00:55:48,710 --> 00:55:54,710
And somewhere in the pregnancy, it,
the focus actually is, oh, there's an

831
00:55:54,710 --> 00:55:56,810
actual baby in another person in there.

832
00:55:57,750 --> 00:56:03,010
And that's where we differentiate
between pregnancy loss and a stillbirth

833
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,310
or pregnancy loss and the baby died.

834
00:56:07,079 --> 00:56:10,979
Because there's a point and for
some people, it's around the point

835
00:56:10,979 --> 00:56:14,379
of viability, you know, where if
that baby was born, they would live,

836
00:56:14,789 --> 00:56:16,500
even if they had complications.

837
00:56:16,860 --> 00:56:20,800
For some families, it's even just
past 20 weeks when the pregnancy

838
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,070
is considered a registrable birth.

839
00:56:23,900 --> 00:56:28,400
Before 20 weeks, it's not, uh, you
know, any number of things, but there

840
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:33,140
seems to be a point where the pregnancy
is lost versus the baby is lost.

841
00:56:33,279 --> 00:56:38,009
And that is an interesting difference
in how, even in that one community,

842
00:56:38,010 --> 00:56:39,320
people respond differently.

843
00:56:40,010 --> 00:56:46,750
So we felt very strongly that we had
a skillset in our holistic practice

844
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:52,380
to be really able to come alongside
young Parents or parents often who

845
00:56:52,380 --> 00:56:57,970
are often young and, and, and say,
how can we be with you in a really

846
00:56:57,980 --> 00:57:04,059
modern context as to how you may want
to honor the life of your baby or to

847
00:57:04,100 --> 00:57:06,390
acknowledge and recognize this pregnancy?

848
00:57:07,910 --> 00:57:08,280
And.

849
00:57:09,885 --> 00:57:14,665
So it's a particular approach that,
that we take, uh, that's about 2 percent

850
00:57:14,665 --> 00:57:20,985
funeral directing and 98 percent holistic
guidance and care and holding space and

851
00:57:22,475 --> 00:57:24,175
creating opportunities for parenting.

852
00:57:25,165 --> 00:57:30,069
So we offer vigils for families so
that, you know, babies, you know,

853
00:57:30,350 --> 00:57:36,440
Mostly, they're born in hospital,
their parents, hospitals have become

854
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:41,850
incredibly good and beautiful at after
death care, and they use cuddle cots and

855
00:57:41,850 --> 00:57:45,189
all sorts of things to support families
to keep their babies close to them.

856
00:57:45,530 --> 00:57:48,969
The days of babies being whipped
away and all that are gone, thank

857
00:57:48,980 --> 00:57:52,390
goodness, and, but still they're
still in a hospital setting.

858
00:57:53,110 --> 00:57:58,350
So, commonly day two, day three,
they go home and the baby might

859
00:57:58,350 --> 00:58:01,310
stay at the hospital to be then
transferred to the funeral director

860
00:58:01,310 --> 00:58:02,500
or whatever's going to happen.

861
00:58:03,630 --> 00:58:08,350
And what, what we've found is there's
an increasing interest in babies

862
00:58:08,350 --> 00:58:10,509
being taken home with the parents.

863
00:58:10,510 --> 00:58:12,360
Like the family still go home together.

864
00:58:12,490 --> 00:58:15,680
So we, support that,
escort that transfer home.

865
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:21,570
We use either a special form of dry
ice or what's called a cuddle cot, like

866
00:58:21,579 --> 00:58:26,579
a little cooling unit to support the
care of the baby's body and, and take

867
00:58:26,579 --> 00:58:28,190
the family home and settle them in.

868
00:58:29,009 --> 00:58:31,089
And, and beautiful things can happen.

869
00:58:31,090 --> 00:58:35,760
The cot gets used, the baby often is still
put in the pram and taken for a walk,

870
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:40,360
can meet the family dog, grandparents
can come and visit, like a lot of magic

871
00:58:40,370 --> 00:58:42,500
can happen in those couple of days.

872
00:58:42,790 --> 00:58:43,320
Ooh.

873
00:58:43,740 --> 00:58:47,760
And if that's not suitable for families
young, the parents often come with,

874
00:58:47,980 --> 00:58:53,315
with, You know, grandparents or aunties
and uncles or other siblings, uh, to

875
00:58:53,465 --> 00:58:55,985
our sanctuary and, and have a vigil day.

876
00:58:56,725 --> 00:59:00,175
And in that time they could maybe
bath the baby and dress the baby.

877
00:59:00,180 --> 00:59:02,275
They often prepare the coffin.

878
00:59:02,275 --> 00:59:09,365
One of my most amazing vigils was, uh,
the family were in our, our lounge room.

879
00:59:09,365 --> 00:59:13,325
So our sanctuaries look like a
family home, and there's a television

880
00:59:13,325 --> 00:59:14,615
just popped off on one of the.

881
00:59:14,875 --> 00:59:15,955
Credences in the side.

882
00:59:16,395 --> 00:59:21,805
And I came back into the room one day,
and Dad was fully stretched out on the

883
00:59:21,805 --> 00:59:28,294
couch, had turned the telly on, put the
footy on, and his, his, and you know,

884
00:59:28,405 --> 00:59:34,504
it's hard, but his dead baby, his, his
stillborn baby was snuggled into his chest

885
00:59:35,295 --> 00:59:40,165
in that classic Dad style of, of the baby
lying on their chest watching the footy.

886
00:59:40,645 --> 00:59:43,110
And I just thought, What more do you need?

887
00:59:43,210 --> 00:59:48,960
Like it was just, he parented
his boy in that moment, in

888
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:50,370
the way that he needed to do.

889
00:59:51,450 --> 00:59:57,520
So to say as a funeral company that
we've got a space for you to come to,

890
00:59:58,270 --> 01:00:02,259
where if you want to, you can watch
the footy and cuddle your dead baby.

891
01:00:03,089 --> 01:00:04,905
Uh, Yep.

892
01:00:04,945 --> 01:00:05,475
We can do that.

893
01:00:07,155 --> 01:00:12,505
And I just, that's why it's a specialist
response because with no, again, with

894
01:00:12,505 --> 01:00:17,535
no assertion on any other funeral
company, conventionally, that's

895
01:00:17,535 --> 01:00:18,715
not a service that's been offered.

896
01:00:18,715 --> 01:00:22,114
It's not that anybody's done anything
wrong, they just don't offer it.

897
01:00:22,734 --> 01:00:26,754
And so we just thought, no, there
has to be a way of, of creating

898
01:00:27,155 --> 01:00:29,095
moments for these parents.

899
01:00:29,770 --> 01:00:36,490
That, that lets them parent their child
and, and, and we've got many, many,

900
01:00:36,490 --> 01:00:41,809
many other examples of, of how we create
parenting opportunities in that, in

901
01:00:41,809 --> 01:00:48,499
that minute so that they can release
their baby, uh, knowing that they got

902
01:00:48,499 --> 01:00:49,940
every single moment that they could.

903
01:00:51,060 --> 01:00:51,290
Yeah.

904
01:00:51,510 --> 01:00:52,680
That's really beautiful.

905
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:58,140
Catherine: Um, you're also the
founder and managing director

906
01:00:58,630 --> 01:01:00,760
of the Willow Tree Foundation.

907
01:01:01,895 --> 01:01:05,815
Do you mind sharing your story about
why you started the organisation?

908
01:01:05,815 --> 01:01:07,044
In

909
01:01:08,025 --> 01:01:13,295
Libby: a way it's similar to the,
the, the response to infant care.

910
01:01:15,774 --> 01:01:19,395
Paediatric death is awful.

911
01:01:19,820 --> 01:01:23,800
It's, it's just awful,
the loss of a child.

912
01:01:24,130 --> 01:01:30,340
And again, we were talking before
about differing grief, it, that does

913
01:01:30,340 --> 01:01:32,640
not imply more or less in any way.

914
01:01:32,740 --> 01:01:33,610
It's just different.

915
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:39,829
And the parenting a child that's
dying, or parenting a child who's

916
01:01:39,829 --> 01:01:42,949
died suddenly, uh, is a very.

917
01:01:43,575 --> 01:01:49,195
Different, again, experience than
if an elder dies or if a, uh, you

918
01:01:49,195 --> 01:01:54,224
know, 55 year old dies or, or even
if a pregnancy is lost because that

919
01:01:54,224 --> 01:01:55,935
child has lived their own life.

920
01:01:56,685 --> 01:02:00,584
And again, there's no, this is, does
not imply any degree of better or worse.

921
01:02:00,934 --> 01:02:01,955
It's just different.

922
01:02:02,735 --> 01:02:07,235
And often there's other children
in the household or, you know,

923
01:02:07,275 --> 01:02:08,885
and, and the, and friends.

924
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:13,100
and school community and
sports that they've belonged

925
01:02:13,100 --> 01:02:14,620
to and all sorts of things.

926
01:02:14,630 --> 01:02:19,420
So the, the care of children
and, and young people.

927
01:02:19,790 --> 01:02:23,670
So the Willow Tree, we provide guidance
and care and support to families

928
01:02:24,010 --> 01:02:26,559
with children up to dependent 25.

929
01:02:26,930 --> 01:02:30,940
So uni students and everybody,
anyway, that's still dependent.

930
01:02:32,030 --> 01:02:36,490
And the responses are different
and, and, and very specific.

931
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:39,460
They take a lot of time.

932
01:02:40,235 --> 01:02:44,515
A lot of time there's not, there's a
sort of a bit of a misunderstanding in

933
01:02:44,515 --> 01:02:48,245
the community that a child's funeral
or a baby's funeral should be cheaper

934
01:02:48,814 --> 01:02:50,794
than a, than an adult's funeral.

935
01:02:51,685 --> 01:02:55,954
And, and, and they are because you know,
the funeral industry generally is very

936
01:02:55,954 --> 01:03:00,925
kind and does make these things cheaper,
but they actually are a lot more work.

937
01:03:00,975 --> 01:03:05,345
There's so much more complexity
of grief in the pediatric death.

938
01:03:06,350 --> 01:03:12,050
And, and so many more people, grandparents
are deeply, deeply involved, aunties,

939
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:16,550
uncles, schools, teachers, mates,
friends, the friends parents, the friends

940
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:19,460
siblings, like it's huge, absolutely huge.

941
01:03:19,770 --> 01:03:25,030
So that takes a very, very
committed and personalised approach.

942
01:03:25,730 --> 01:03:30,830
And we found, or we felt that, um.

943
01:03:31,770 --> 01:03:38,120
We could share those resources by
setting up a charity and having that

944
01:03:38,410 --> 01:03:43,939
not for profit environment to be
able to make those resources really

945
01:03:43,940 --> 01:03:48,899
available and comfortably referred
by health settings in particular.

946
01:03:49,570 --> 01:03:56,520
So, the health sector is very, very loathe
to, to refer to a private provider, uh,

947
01:03:56,550 --> 01:03:58,050
particularly in the funeral industry.

948
01:03:58,389 --> 01:04:03,789
And so, we just wanted to make those
resources really available, um, usable

949
01:04:03,789 --> 01:04:08,720
by anyone, no obligation to do anything,
just take the information and go.

950
01:04:09,410 --> 01:04:12,120
And so, that's, that's where
the willow tree came from.

951
01:04:13,460 --> 01:04:19,240
And uh, yeah, it's, it's, It's, again,
it's, it's growing all the time.

952
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:23,540
There's, there's so much work
that can be done in that space.

953
01:04:23,970 --> 01:04:28,269
One of our most closely held,
uh, opportunities that we have

954
01:04:28,269 --> 01:04:31,430
through the Willow Tree is to
work with other stakeholders.

955
01:04:32,010 --> 01:04:37,090
So we connect with, there's a couple
in, in Australia, there's three

956
01:04:37,500 --> 01:04:41,510
primary children's hospices in
Brisbane, in Sydney, and in Melbourne.

957
01:04:42,300 --> 01:04:45,150
And there's a group growing to
create one in Perth as well.

958
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:49,620
And we work with the stakeholder, with
the other, you know, the participants

959
01:04:49,620 --> 01:04:55,539
in those places to provide education on
how to support children's bodies after

960
01:04:55,540 --> 01:04:58,190
death, in after death care at the hospice.

961
01:04:58,570 --> 01:05:00,989
You know, what are the funeral
choices that are available?

962
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:02,600
How can we minimize costs?

963
01:05:02,930 --> 01:05:08,760
So stakeholder education and, and, and
sharing what we know so that others

964
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:14,770
can give it to Freely and without
cost is really important to us and

965
01:05:14,820 --> 01:05:16,430
that's what the willow tree is for.

966
01:05:17,530 --> 01:05:23,479
Catherine: That's amazing because
so commonly you find organisations

967
01:05:23,500 --> 01:05:27,420
that protect, especially in the
corporate environment, protect that

968
01:05:27,420 --> 01:05:31,510
information and, and, you know,
make sure that they don't share it.

969
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:36,725
So the fact that you've actually set
this up with the, Purpose of actually

970
01:05:36,735 --> 01:05:41,215
sharing those resources across the
board and, you know, sharing those

971
01:05:41,215 --> 01:05:45,355
experiences of what you've learned with
the other organizations is fantastic.

972
01:05:45,385 --> 01:05:48,085
That's really, really
beautiful, especially in a space

973
01:05:48,085 --> 01:05:49,784
where it's, it's so needed.

974
01:05:49,795 --> 01:05:51,335
So that's really lovely.

975
01:05:52,585 --> 01:05:53,105
Yeah, thank you.

976
01:05:53,835 --> 01:05:57,665
And obviously you have a
lot of experience Libby.

977
01:05:58,355 --> 01:06:02,075
From your experience, what would
you say that you think would be,

978
01:06:02,115 --> 01:06:06,855
is the hardest thing that you see
families dealing with when it comes

979
01:06:06,875 --> 01:06:08,995
to, to the death of a loved one?

980
01:06:10,345 --> 01:06:15,305
Libby: I think the hardest thing
is, is tension or even conflict

981
01:06:15,615 --> 01:06:21,605
between what people thought a person
wanted and what they either did

982
01:06:21,655 --> 01:06:26,055
want or what another person, another
decision maker, thought they wanted.

983
01:06:26,865 --> 01:06:33,855
So on, on a easily explainable level,
once, you know, one sibling might say,

984
01:06:34,125 --> 01:06:37,930
mum, absolutely wanted to have, uh, mass.

985
01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:44,459
And then the other sibling might say, uh,
no, mum's got cranky with the church in

986
01:06:44,459 --> 01:06:47,810
the last couple of years and I don't know
that she would have wanted that anymore.

987
01:06:48,070 --> 01:06:51,999
And, you know, so I'm just
picking something easy to explain.

988
01:06:51,999 --> 01:06:53,850
Oh, I want pink flowers
and she wanted purple.

989
01:06:53,850 --> 01:06:54,160
I don't know.

990
01:06:54,239 --> 01:06:54,669
Pick something.

991
01:06:54,669 --> 01:06:54,959
Yeah.

992
01:06:55,519 --> 01:06:56,019
And.

993
01:06:56,875 --> 01:07:06,355
The, the gift, the absolute gift that is
an advanced care directive and some form

994
01:07:06,405 --> 01:07:11,815
of instructions It can be jotted down on
the back of a serviette and chucked in

995
01:07:11,815 --> 01:07:13,355
the top drawer, doesn't matter what it is.

996
01:07:13,795 --> 01:07:16,285
But yes, I would like burial or cremation.

997
01:07:16,675 --> 01:07:21,335
Yes, I would like mass to be said for
me or no, do not take me to church.

998
01:07:21,695 --> 01:07:22,484
Yes, I would.

999
01:07:22,484 --> 01:07:23,065
Yes, I wouldn't.

1000
01:07:23,075 --> 01:07:23,644
No, I would.

1001
01:07:23,644 --> 01:07:24,105
No, I wouldn't.

1002
01:07:24,115 --> 01:07:27,835
Just some even very,
very simple instructions.

1003
01:07:28,955 --> 01:07:34,825
The gift it gives to families who
can say, this is what mum wanted.

1004
01:07:36,155 --> 01:07:40,865
And it, it's that those
instructions allow plenty of room

1005
01:07:41,075 --> 01:07:43,085
for choice and personalizing.

1006
01:07:43,085 --> 01:07:47,495
I'm not a subscriber to prepaid funerals
and, and, you know, dictating from

1007
01:07:47,495 --> 01:07:48,785
the grave this is what will happen.

1008
01:07:49,415 --> 01:07:54,915
But I absolutely know that if
every single one of us could leave

1009
01:07:54,920 --> 01:08:00,695
instructions or a guide to, uh,
the people that love us, that say,

1010
01:08:00,755 --> 01:08:07,015
please bury me, don't cremate me, or,
you know, dah, dah, dah, then that.

1011
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:08,760
It's just a gift.

1012
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:10,080
It's an act of love.

1013
01:08:10,470 --> 01:08:13,610
And we're also scared of having these
conversations, and we don't, I don't

1014
01:08:13,610 --> 01:08:18,630
want to upset people is the commonly
said thing, but the, the upset

1015
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:24,139
that's caused by not having those
conversations, uh, is, is heartbreaking

1016
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:26,149
really, and can split families.

1017
01:08:27,450 --> 01:08:28,700
So it's a gift.

1018
01:08:28,970 --> 01:08:30,060
It's responsible.

1019
01:08:30,870 --> 01:08:31,540
Please.

1020
01:08:31,930 --> 01:08:37,370
Just plan, doesn't have to be
detailed and complex, but plan and

1021
01:08:37,370 --> 01:08:39,030
share with your family what you want.

1022
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:42,830
And if we got that fixed, then
a lot of the grief I see would

1023
01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:45,250
be minimized or even avoided.

1024
01:08:47,949 --> 01:08:51,290
Catherine: Well, I think that's
exceptionally good advice, Libby.

1025
01:08:51,939 --> 01:08:52,709
I thought you might.

1026
01:08:54,879 --> 01:08:58,380
Is there anything else that you'd like to
share with us before we finish up, Libby?

1027
01:08:58,970 --> 01:09:01,910
Libby: Oh, no, I think, I think
your questions have been marvellous

1028
01:09:01,950 --> 01:09:05,400
and, and, and interesting and a
bit different than what is commonly

1029
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:07,300
asked, so that's, that's great.

1030
01:09:07,850 --> 01:09:16,929
I think, uh, I don't know, I think, I
thought, what comes down to authenticity,

1031
01:09:16,940 --> 01:09:19,500
Catherine, you know, if, if people.

1032
01:09:20,730 --> 01:09:27,750
If people die in their place, preferred
place, if they die with the things around

1033
01:09:27,750 --> 01:09:31,939
them that they can smell what they like,
that they hear happy voices, that they

1034
01:09:31,939 --> 01:09:36,650
could hear the radio going on the same
station that they always had, that they,

1035
01:09:37,050 --> 01:09:40,979
their last thing they taste is really
good champagne or a fresh beer or a

1036
01:09:40,979 --> 01:09:42,800
little dob of something on their tongue.

1037
01:09:43,500 --> 01:09:49,360
If they, if the people around them, uh,
are cared for, you can die comfortably,

1038
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:58,269
and if that happens, then the
people that have loved you can

1039
01:09:58,270 --> 01:10:00,429
recover, they recover well.

1040
01:10:01,319 --> 01:10:05,590
Now this idea of closure is rubbish,
but if you can recover, you can

1041
01:10:05,670 --> 01:10:10,630
integrate loss into your future, and
you can carry that person with you.

1042
01:10:12,170 --> 01:10:14,720
With a smile on your face, even if
there's still lots of tears, you

1043
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:16,260
can still have a smile on your face.

1044
01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:20,580
And I think we can prepare for death well.

1045
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:23,849
I think we can experience
death consciously.

1046
01:10:24,670 --> 01:10:32,389
And if we hold each other holistically
and gently, then we can, we can

1047
01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:34,450
have our, have people we love die.

1048
01:10:34,580 --> 01:10:35,690
And we can be okay.

1049
01:10:36,710 --> 01:10:42,620
And that, that, I think is that
comes to an issue of our well being.

1050
01:10:43,510 --> 01:10:44,690
It's a health issue.

1051
01:10:45,450 --> 01:10:49,810
We can avoid minimized
complicated bereavement outcomes.

1052
01:10:50,750 --> 01:10:54,799
That then has an impact on our
health budget and our health systems.

1053
01:10:55,650 --> 01:10:58,240
We don't have to be destroyed by death.

1054
01:10:59,480 --> 01:11:00,500
It can be okay.

1055
01:11:03,380 --> 01:11:06,400
Catherine: Well, thank you for
the part that you and your team

1056
01:11:06,470 --> 01:11:10,300
play in making it that little
bit easier for families as well.

1057
01:11:10,900 --> 01:11:11,570
Thank you.

1058
01:11:12,069 --> 01:11:12,730
What a pleasure.

1059
01:11:12,940 --> 01:11:13,330
Thanks.

1060
01:11:13,340 --> 01:11:13,990
Thanks Libby.

1061
01:11:16,210 --> 01:11:19,670
We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,

1062
01:11:19,940 --> 01:11:21,530
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1063
01:11:21,530 --> 01:11:26,720
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1064
01:11:26,720 --> 01:11:28,380
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1065
01:11:28,830 --> 01:11:32,410
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1066
01:11:32,410 --> 01:11:34,140
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1067
01:11:34,330 --> 01:11:38,450
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1068
01:11:38,460 --> 01:11:40,189
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1069
01:11:40,510 --> 01:11:41,870
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1070
01:11:42,010 --> 01:11:45,480
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1071
01:11:45,780 --> 01:11:47,370
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1072
01:11:47,799 --> 01:11:49,670
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1073
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:53,080
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