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Kristy: Working with so many families and
the families that I see that really thrive

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00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:12,699
beyond grief is the families where the
parent is addressing their grief because

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no matter what else happens at least the
child's being modeled healthy grieving.

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Also the children have that have all of
the information do better in their grief.

5
00:0 ... Read More

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Kristy: Working with so many families and
the families that I see that really thrive

2
00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:12,699
beyond grief is the families where the
parent is addressing their grief because

3
00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:18,350
no matter what else happens at least the
child's being modeled healthy grieving.

4
00:00:18,529 --> 00:00:23,870
Also the children have that have all of
the information do better in their grief.

5
00:00:24,590 --> 00:00:29,700
So if there's anything that's any
information that's withheld or that's

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maybe really sensitive around the
topic of how they died and they

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don't have all of the information
throughout time that just escalates.

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Catherine: Welcome to
Don't Be Caught Dead.

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00:00:43,035 --> 00:00:48,005
A podcast encouraging open conversations
about dying and the death of a loved one.

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00:00:48,575 --> 00:00:53,514
I'm your host, Catherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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00:00:53,514 --> 00:00:56,015
bring your stories of death back to life.

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00:00:56,584 --> 00:01:00,784
Because while you may not be ready
to die, at least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations

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and recognises their connection
to land, sea, and community.

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We pay our respects to their Elders,
past, present and emerging, and extend

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that respect to all Aboriginal and
Torres Strait Islander and First

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Nation peoples around the globe.

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James and Christy Thomas founded Feel
the Magic in 2013, driven by their

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personal experiences with grief and
a mission to make sure no Australian

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child goes through grief alone.

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Both James and Christy know
first hand what How hard it is

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to heal after a loved one dies.

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James, having experienced the death of
both his father and mother and Christie's,

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the death of her brother, working with
mental health experts to develop the

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evidence based camps, strategies, and
resources that feel the magic delivers

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James and Christie are dedicated to
helping grieving kids heal, no matter

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where they live in Australia, from the
city to the most isolated rural towns.

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Thanks for joining me.

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Hey, Christy and James,
welcome to the show.

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Thank you.

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Thanks for having us.

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Thanks for having us.

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Now tell me, most people work through
their grief in their own way, but most

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people don't start a charity and a
camp for children who are grieving.

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How on earth did this come about?

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00:02:26,709 --> 00:02:28,960
James: Oh, you want to start Christy?

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That's a long

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Kristy: story.

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Recommended would be my first
statement to most people don't do that.

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But I will, I'll let James start because,
uh, it really was his, it founded out

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of his idea and we sort of ran with it.

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So I'll hand it over to you, James.

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James: Okay.

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Well, I guess from my point of view,
starting a charity, I thought of the

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idea of Feel the Magic in the happiest
place on earth, which was Disneyland.

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That was back in 2012.

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And I remember, and I was, you know,
I'm sure we'll get into the story,

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but grieving the loss of my mum,
selling my business, we ended up

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finding ourselves in, in America
for, for a month and Disneyland was

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on that, on that, uh, itinerary.

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And it was there where I just
thought of this idea to help kids

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who are, who are grieving to, to
send them and their family on a, on

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a beautiful trip to, to Disneyland.

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Just a, you know, just a feel good thing
to do from there, come back, worked at

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it, it evolved into this charity and
it just felt like I had no idea about

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charity other than donating to them.

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But it just felt like everything
fell into place quite smoothly, even

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our, you know, our DGR status, the
deductible gift recipient status

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that fell into place quite quickly.

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And I was just this, knowing
within me that we were on the

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right path and this had to happen.

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And, I don't know, it's hard to, you
know, whether it's intuition or why,

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but I just knew that this thing had to
grow, and we had to persist with it.

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We weren't really aware of
the work that it would take.

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And in hindsight, looking back,
it probably was one of the most

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enjoyable parts of my, my career, so
to speak, you know, there's, there's

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a lot of sacrifices that need to
be made, but why start a charity?

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Don't know.

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I just think it just fell into place.

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And we just knew that this thing
had to, had to be on, you know,

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it's still one of our goals since,
since way back then is this feel

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the magic would be a household name.

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The Grieving Families.

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That's, that's our,
that's our ultimate goal.

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Catherine: And tell me about the name.

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Where did the name come from?

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James: Yeah, look, I guess, you know,
discovering the idea in, in, in Disneyland

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is the whole, the whole place is magical.

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I don't know if you've been there
yourself, but it's just, I guess for me,

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it's, it's one of those places where it
took me straight back to my childhood.

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Going through what I went through, losing
mum on my birthday, walking through

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Disneyland, just, just took me back to
being a kid with my parents watching.

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We all grew up in Disney, I guess.

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Uh, you know, seeing characters
that I completely forgot about,

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hearing songs from movies that
I completely forgot about.

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And I just knew in that moment I was, I
was in the right place at the right time.

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So there was magic in the air.

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So when we come up with the idea, we come
home and we were writing down names and we

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just knew the word magic had to be in it.

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That was, that was without question.

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And it was coming up, you know,
with, with words to surround that.

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And we stumbled across feel the magic.

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And we just went, yeah,
that's, that's it because.

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I guess in Disneyland you are feeling
the magic and in some sort of way

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there is magic to come from grief.

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I mean as that sounds a little bit more
morbid, but if you really, grief is the

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hardest thing you're ever going to go
through as a human being in my humble

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opinion and if you can Embrace that,
work through it, and when I say work

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through it, you know, feel it, live it,
express it, all the, all the hard stuff

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that we've, I guess we've been, we've
been taught to avoid, there is magic

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on the other side, whether that's, you
know, meeting a brand new community

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like Feel the Magic, or whether it's
just, you know, knowing full well in

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yourself that you've overcome the hardest
thing you'll ever go through in your

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life, and nothing else seems to, you
know, We'll seem to bother you now.

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That's the message we
portray with our kids anyway,

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Catherine: and when you were
walking through Disneyland during

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00:06:14,775 --> 00:06:19,324
that time Did it remind you all of
those memories of when you were a

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kid and when it were you were safe?

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00:06:21,955 --> 00:06:26,015
And yeah, the world was like like
you saying magical, you know,

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00:06:26,015 --> 00:06:28,710
James: yeah Yeah, you took the
words right out of my mouth.

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00:06:28,710 --> 00:06:30,280
Safe is exactly how I felt.

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00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,120
It almost felt like a warm blanket walking
through Disneyland because it was that,

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00:06:34,580 --> 00:06:37,499
the safety of sitting on the lounge
with mum and daddy at the side of me.

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00:06:37,500 --> 00:06:39,840
And I'm an only child, so
there was just the three of us.

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00:06:40,030 --> 00:06:40,840
There was nothing better.

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00:06:40,979 --> 00:06:45,340
And even as a, even as a father now,
the movie nights are, quite a special

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00:06:45,340 --> 00:06:48,499
thing because I remember them, you
know, like they were yesterday.

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00:06:48,499 --> 00:06:50,520
So I'd like to pass that down to my boys.

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00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,349
But there is that, you know, safety
is a, is a beautiful word to use.

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00:06:54,590 --> 00:06:56,129
Catherine: Yeah, that's,
that's really beautiful.

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00:06:56,419 --> 00:06:58,869
And it evokes a really lovely imagery.

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00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,039
And you, you both alluded to the fact
that there's been challenging times.

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00:07:03,669 --> 00:07:07,109
So you're just about to celebrate
your 10th anniversary next year.

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00:07:07,790 --> 00:07:10,630
So how has the camp
evolved during that time?

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00:07:10,630 --> 00:07:13,150
And, and what programs do you now offer?

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00:07:16,450 --> 00:07:17,299
Kristy: I'll take that one.

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00:07:17,409 --> 00:07:21,419
So we started with Disneyland trips.

128
00:07:21,460 --> 00:07:27,619
We called them magic journeys and
what we realized was that each of

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00:07:27,619 --> 00:07:30,559
the families that were going on the
journey and coming back, they were

130
00:07:30,559 --> 00:07:35,150
actually getting so much value out of
creating their own little community.

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00:07:35,599 --> 00:07:41,130
So in the end we sent overall 14
families to the Disney experience

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and they all just became this
beautiful tight knit community.

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And we started to think, Oh, how can
we best make impact with the funds that

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we're raising to support these families?

135
00:07:54,429 --> 00:07:56,619
And that's where Camp Magic was born.

136
00:07:57,239 --> 00:07:59,919
So Camp Magic was our signature program.

137
00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:06,169
It's two and a half days of grief
education for kids, age seven to 17.

138
00:08:06,289 --> 00:08:10,270
And basically The camp, they come
to camp and they're matched with an

139
00:08:10,460 --> 00:08:16,719
adult mentor for the whole duration
of camp and that volunteer will then

140
00:08:16,849 --> 00:08:21,460
sort of sit beside them throughout
their process, throughout the weekend.

141
00:08:22,089 --> 00:08:27,375
So, The weekend's sort of broken up
into sections of psycho educational

142
00:08:27,435 --> 00:08:32,655
therapeutic sessions where they learn
about healthy grieving, uh, in particular

143
00:08:32,674 --> 00:08:40,094
self soothing tools and emotional
regulation type activities, and they

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00:08:40,105 --> 00:08:43,584
get to connect with other kids just
like them, which is really important.

145
00:08:43,585 --> 00:08:50,015
So we, we do that, but then we sort
of, Cuddle each of those sessions

146
00:08:50,025 --> 00:08:57,865
with team building activities, rock
climbing or canoeing or high rope type

147
00:08:57,865 --> 00:09:00,075
activities in a recreational setting.

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00:09:00,554 --> 00:09:03,645
So they're having a lot
of fun at the same time.

149
00:09:03,645 --> 00:09:06,055
So they're just, you know,
connecting with each other.

150
00:09:07,104 --> 00:09:11,124
And most kids will say they've
never met any other kids before.

151
00:09:11,505 --> 00:09:12,285
that are like them.

152
00:09:12,565 --> 00:09:14,955
So they feel quite
isolated in their grief.

153
00:09:14,965 --> 00:09:19,675
So coming to camp, they just meet,
you know, upwards of 60 other

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00:09:19,675 --> 00:09:20,915
kids who are similar to them.

155
00:09:20,915 --> 00:09:25,165
And it, it can just change their, their
world to go, Oh, I'm not the only one.

156
00:09:26,005 --> 00:09:28,194
Oh, there's other people going
through the same thing as me.

157
00:09:29,145 --> 00:09:32,204
So that, that was what we
did for quite a few years.

158
00:09:32,344 --> 00:09:35,404
I think five years, we
were solid camp magic.

159
00:09:35,964 --> 00:09:38,174
We did them in New South Wales.

160
00:09:38,174 --> 00:09:40,874
We expanded out to ACT and then Victoria.

161
00:09:41,724 --> 00:09:47,635
And then We decided that we wanted to
introduce other programs because we

162
00:09:47,635 --> 00:09:49,685
knew we could provide more support.

163
00:09:49,725 --> 00:09:53,514
So Camp Magic became so popular
that we couldn't service all of

164
00:09:53,514 --> 00:09:54,825
the kids that wanted to come.

165
00:09:54,825 --> 00:09:57,194
So we introduced all the same camp.

166
00:09:57,275 --> 00:09:57,585
Yeah.

167
00:09:58,935 --> 00:09:59,225
Becoming

168
00:09:59,225 --> 00:09:59,844
Catherine: too popular.

169
00:10:00,465 --> 00:10:01,565
Kristy: Becoming too popular.

170
00:10:01,805 --> 00:10:02,245
Yeah.

171
00:10:02,275 --> 00:10:04,815
Because it's one in 20 kids
who will lose a parent.

172
00:10:05,235 --> 00:10:09,765
Uh, before the age of 18 here in
Australia, which is a high number.

173
00:10:09,835 --> 00:10:14,385
And we support kids who have lost a
sibling as well as a parent or guardian.

174
00:10:14,795 --> 00:10:17,005
So that's, those figures are huge.

175
00:10:17,005 --> 00:10:20,865
And that's, that's not
including sibling loss.

176
00:10:20,904 --> 00:10:24,345
So it would be significantly
higher, I would imagine.

177
00:10:24,925 --> 00:10:26,505
And then when they come to camp.

178
00:10:27,045 --> 00:10:30,615
They, they have this amazing
experience and what we wanted to do

179
00:10:30,805 --> 00:10:34,035
then was offer other opportunities
for them to just connect.

180
00:10:34,055 --> 00:10:38,294
It's just really important for them to
have relationships in the community.

181
00:10:38,944 --> 00:10:44,735
So we have now a one day camp
that lots of kids come to first.

182
00:10:45,295 --> 00:10:48,644
So their first interaction with
us is come to a family day camp.

183
00:10:49,570 --> 00:10:53,990
The whole family comes, we give them a
little bit of grief education, we give

184
00:10:53,990 --> 00:10:59,119
them lots of connection, we have some
family time, we do arts, we do music, but

185
00:10:59,630 --> 00:11:03,630
generally speaking they'll leave feeling
lighter and happier than they came.

186
00:11:04,399 --> 00:11:09,549
And then, uh, we also during COVID
introduced online program, which is

187
00:11:09,579 --> 00:11:10,919
called our Hopefully Grieving program.

188
00:11:11,930 --> 00:11:16,140
It's delivered four hours
online over a weekend period.

189
00:11:16,180 --> 00:11:20,240
So they'll do two one hour sessions
on Saturday and two on Sunday.

190
00:11:21,010 --> 00:11:26,230
And, uh, that also goes a little bit more
in depth into our therapeutic processes.

191
00:11:27,430 --> 00:11:31,540
So then by the time they get to
Camp Magic, they've had two, one or

192
00:11:31,540 --> 00:11:33,449
two interactions with us already.

193
00:11:33,989 --> 00:11:39,915
And so that process into Camp Magic
is much smoother because They're

194
00:11:39,935 --> 00:11:44,065
comfortable with us already, they're
familiar with some of our processes

195
00:11:44,065 --> 00:11:49,365
already, and so they're, you know, kind
of firing, ready to go, whereas most

196
00:11:49,425 --> 00:11:56,374
kids, sorry, not most kids, but a lot of
kids who are grieving really experience

197
00:11:56,394 --> 00:12:01,405
separation anxiety from either their
surviving parent or their family because

198
00:12:02,595 --> 00:12:04,455
unfortunately they're fearful of death.

199
00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:05,090
So,

200
00:12:07,339 --> 00:12:11,319
yeah, so we've kind of expanded out
so that we can provide more support.

201
00:12:11,359 --> 00:12:14,750
Obviously we have a million other things
that we would love to do, but it's

202
00:12:14,770 --> 00:12:17,850
all, you know, fundraising is hard.

203
00:12:18,669 --> 00:12:19,249
It's difficult.

204
00:12:19,570 --> 00:12:22,600
So we're just, we've grown.

205
00:12:23,465 --> 00:12:26,655
We've got lots of kids and we've
got endless amounts of kids wanting

206
00:12:26,655 --> 00:12:28,135
to come to our camp magic program.

207
00:12:28,155 --> 00:12:31,867
So that's how much we've, what
we've achieved in those 10 years.

208
00:12:31,867 --> 00:12:32,750
That is

209
00:12:32,750 --> 00:12:36,095
Catherine: a lot that you've
achieved in those 10 years.

210
00:12:36,614 --> 00:12:41,025
And tell me when you've modified
the program for having that sort

211
00:12:41,025 --> 00:12:45,095
of a small, you know, bite size
introduction to feel the magic.

212
00:12:45,435 --> 00:12:50,625
And then when they actually come on a,
on a camp, what has been the difference

213
00:12:50,635 --> 00:12:53,875
that you've seen with, with just changing
the way in which you've programmed.

214
00:12:54,315 --> 00:12:54,735
Oh,

215
00:12:55,145 --> 00:12:56,275
Kristy: huge difference.

216
00:12:56,325 --> 00:12:59,935
And I put it down to a couple
of things that we've introduced.

217
00:13:00,575 --> 00:13:04,184
Back in the day when we had our
first ever Camp Magix, it was all me.

218
00:13:04,295 --> 00:13:06,365
I was the intake person.

219
00:13:06,485 --> 00:13:08,815
I was the point of contact.

220
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I was the person on camp who looked
after everything logistically.

221
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And now we have a team
that work in that area.

222
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So We also have a
psychologist who's on call.

223
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So what happens is when a family
is in taken into our community,

224
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they just get much more thorough.

225
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We get more thorough information
on who they are, what their

226
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needs are, and specifically.

227
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We kind of really get detailed information
so that when we do get to Camp Magic

228
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the difference because they've come
through that process is there's a

229
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lot less heightened kids at a camp.

230
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There's no surprises because we know
the kids, we know what to expect because

231
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we've already had those interactions
whereas sometimes in the past going in

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blindly we'd be having to manage a lot
of different kinds of things because

233
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we didn't have all the information so.

234
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You know, that growth is so imperative
to the safety of the child and.

235
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and have such a positive
experience for the parent

236
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guardian who's grieving as well.

237
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So it's not just the kids
who are, who are struggling.

238
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Catherine: Yeah.

239
00:14:24,954 --> 00:14:28,515
And until we just, where does that
process start where it's the, the

240
00:14:28,515 --> 00:14:30,475
one day camp when the family comes?

241
00:14:31,454 --> 00:14:35,178
So is it, is it the virtual
program then that or just one

242
00:14:35,178 --> 00:14:36,924
Kristy: or the other, depending on.

243
00:14:37,330 --> 00:14:40,240
The availability of programs
coming up throughout the year.

244
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So with a healthy grieving program,
that's the online one, that one, we can

245
00:14:44,700 --> 00:14:50,099
guarantee you'd get into within a three
month period because we have a program

246
00:14:50,139 --> 00:14:52,590
every month, different age groups.

247
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So that means that that's.

248
00:14:55,075 --> 00:14:58,565
which can be accessed really quickly
and then the family day camps are

249
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more spread out because we have
more participants on the day.

250
00:15:02,505 --> 00:15:09,554
So it would be either one or the other
and if a parent is concerned about doing

251
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it online they'll wait for the family
day camp so they can all come together.

252
00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:15,290
Catherine: Yeah, wow.

253
00:15:15,620 --> 00:15:18,570
And tell me, how big's
the team now, Christy?

254
00:15:18,790 --> 00:15:21,410
Oh gosh, exactly.

255
00:15:21,910 --> 00:15:22,860
Kristy: Why don't I know?

256
00:15:24,550 --> 00:15:27,590
Um, is it eight of us,
I think we have, James?

257
00:15:28,299 --> 00:15:29,480
James: Uh, yeah, about that.

258
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:31,790
On a volunteer basis, in the hundreds.

259
00:15:32,150 --> 00:15:34,520
Kristy: Yeah, so there's eight in a team.

260
00:15:36,100 --> 00:15:41,380
Most of us work part time, so we
all, You know, do a few days here

261
00:15:41,380 --> 00:15:44,130
and there, but then our volunteers.

262
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:50,370
So at any one camp, we would have
upwards of 70 volunteers who lead

263
00:15:50,370 --> 00:15:55,699
the program, mentor the kids, as
well as all of the facilitation that

264
00:15:55,699 --> 00:15:58,849
happens over the weekend, they're
all trained volunteers as well.

265
00:15:58,899 --> 00:16:05,530
So, uh, it's an incredible team
that we have majority of volunteers.

266
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At this point.

267
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Catherine: That's phenomenal.

268
00:16:08,290 --> 00:16:12,310
And, and tell me, you'd have to have
a program for those volunteers and

269
00:16:12,310 --> 00:16:14,950
you'd have to recruit those volunteers.

270
00:16:15,620 --> 00:16:19,650
Tell me about that process, because
that in itself is a job alone.

271
00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:21,750
Yes,

272
00:16:22,060 --> 00:16:22,660
Kristy: it really is.

273
00:16:23,309 --> 00:16:25,089
Recruitment is a process.

274
00:16:25,455 --> 00:16:32,055
We've sort of gone a couple of avenues,
one being partnering with organizations.

275
00:16:32,155 --> 00:16:35,945
So we've partnered with a couple
of corporates over the years who

276
00:16:36,235 --> 00:16:41,765
donate funds and then in return they
send their employees to come and

277
00:16:41,784 --> 00:16:43,425
have this incredible experience.

278
00:16:44,234 --> 00:16:46,415
So that's part of a recruitment plan.

279
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We've also partnered with two separate
universities, one here in Sydney.

280
00:16:51,004 --> 00:16:57,314
New South Wales and one in Victoria,
Monash University, where we have the

281
00:16:57,515 --> 00:17:02,615
psychology students come and mentor as
part of collecting hours of their service.

282
00:17:02,724 --> 00:17:05,064
But that's been great.

283
00:17:05,405 --> 00:17:10,240
But what's even better is
those students come back.

284
00:17:10,339 --> 00:17:11,660
So they do their hours.

285
00:17:11,740 --> 00:17:16,879
And then we seem to be retaining a
lot of them just based on, they're

286
00:17:16,879 --> 00:17:19,930
obviously having a really positive
experience and they come again.

287
00:17:20,010 --> 00:17:25,430
So our biggest issue I would
say is recruitment of males.

288
00:17:26,370 --> 00:17:27,970
We find quite difficult.

289
00:17:28,730 --> 00:17:29,879
That's always

290
00:17:29,939 --> 00:17:32,609
Catherine: a bit of a push to each camp.

291
00:17:33,859 --> 00:17:35,869
And why do you think
that that is a challenge?

292
00:17:36,845 --> 00:17:40,075
I think, I think there's many

293
00:17:40,075 --> 00:17:40,514
James: reasons.

294
00:17:41,415 --> 00:17:44,835
From a male's perspective, I think,
the fear of being alone with kids,

295
00:17:44,835 --> 00:17:46,595
I think that would scare you.

296
00:17:46,965 --> 00:17:51,324
Yeah, I guess the responsibility,
work, being away from your own family.

297
00:17:51,750 --> 00:17:54,950
However, with the, with the training
we do provide our mentors, they're,

298
00:17:54,950 --> 00:17:57,600
they're fully equipped and when they
go into camp, they know the rule of

299
00:17:57,610 --> 00:18:01,100
three, they're quite, they're quite
supported in, in any of their fears

300
00:18:01,100 --> 00:18:02,249
or concerns that they may have.

301
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,860
Catherine: And so tell me what
was that, the rule of three?

302
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:07,060
James: Rule of three.

303
00:18:07,060 --> 00:18:09,860
So you're never ever to
be alone with your camper.

304
00:18:09,909 --> 00:18:12,004
So if, for example, if I was.

305
00:18:12,355 --> 00:18:14,085
My little camper, Johnny,
needed to go to the bathroom.

306
00:18:14,085 --> 00:18:16,014
I wouldn't just go up
and take him by myself.

307
00:18:16,014 --> 00:18:18,385
I would actually ask another mentor
and their camper to come with us.

308
00:18:18,585 --> 00:18:19,495
And it's quite strict.

309
00:18:19,495 --> 00:18:22,314
The culture we've built,
everyone sticks to that.

310
00:18:22,425 --> 00:18:25,304
And if, if anyone doesn't, then
they are immediately reported.

311
00:18:25,594 --> 00:18:29,010
So it's not dobbing, it's actually
doing the right thing by The

312
00:18:29,010 --> 00:18:30,610
mentors and the kids themselves.

313
00:18:32,330 --> 00:18:35,000
Catherine: And so, you know, you've
got, I suppose for you, you've got that

314
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:40,749
added layer of those concerns and that's
already on top of the concerns that

315
00:18:40,749 --> 00:18:44,729
people have and the awkwardness people
have about grief and talking about death.

316
00:18:44,730 --> 00:18:50,750
So your, your, your volunteer
program must be quite intensive

317
00:18:50,850 --> 00:18:52,360
when you're providing that training.

318
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:54,740
And so your volunteers
are then known as mentors.

319
00:18:54,750 --> 00:18:55,310
Is that right?

320
00:18:56,145 --> 00:18:56,815
James: That's correct.

321
00:18:56,975 --> 00:18:59,825
Yeah, so they go through a, well
actually Christy, I'll let you

322
00:18:59,835 --> 00:19:01,875
explain that because it's been a
while since I've been doing mentor

323
00:19:01,875 --> 00:19:04,585
training, but yeah, they're definitely,
they're definitely well equipped.

324
00:19:05,995 --> 00:19:12,335
Kristy: Yeah, over the years we've been,
we've built on that volunteer recruitment

325
00:19:12,384 --> 00:19:13,894
in the way that we bring them in.

326
00:19:13,924 --> 00:19:18,464
So firstly, they have to get
all of their checks done.

327
00:19:18,695 --> 00:19:24,665
where they're required to have a hundred
points of ID signed by the JP, which I

328
00:19:24,665 --> 00:19:28,295
know can be a barrier for a lot of people
coming in straight off the bat, because

329
00:19:28,295 --> 00:19:34,155
it does require you to go and get, do
something that's not easy, uh, but we

330
00:19:34,155 --> 00:19:39,544
require it because we absolutely, like,
child protection to us is number one.

331
00:19:40,315 --> 00:19:43,905
Because if we let anything slip,
then we won't be able to do

332
00:19:44,015 --> 00:19:45,455
this work, which is so needed.

333
00:19:45,555 --> 00:19:49,965
So they have to go through that
rigorous identification process.

334
00:19:50,004 --> 00:19:53,705
Then they're required to always
have a working with children check

335
00:19:53,705 --> 00:19:55,365
or equivalent to their state.

336
00:19:56,054 --> 00:19:58,125
I think it's a blue card in other States.

337
00:19:58,855 --> 00:20:03,335
And then they also need to update
their national criminal history check

338
00:20:03,705 --> 00:20:06,445
every 12 months, which requires them.

339
00:20:06,504 --> 00:20:09,375
They need to have one
valid every 12 months.

340
00:20:09,715 --> 00:20:10,304
And then.

341
00:20:11,155 --> 00:20:16,265
They are required to complete an
online e learning course, which takes

342
00:20:16,565 --> 00:20:19,944
anywhere from sort of 45 minutes
to an hour and a half for them to

343
00:20:19,944 --> 00:20:26,195
complete, which addresses really sort
of key elements like child protection,

344
00:20:26,605 --> 00:20:32,025
disclosure, how to keep themselves
safe, what to say to a grieving child,

345
00:20:32,515 --> 00:20:35,085
really, really detailed information.

346
00:20:35,135 --> 00:20:40,265
So then when they show up for the face to
face, we deliver it online and in person.

347
00:20:40,860 --> 00:20:45,709
Uh, training, which goes for about five
hours, uh, they're already equipped

348
00:20:45,860 --> 00:20:47,449
with all that backhand knowledge.

349
00:20:47,459 --> 00:20:50,859
So then when they come into training,
they can actually have a real experience

350
00:20:50,860 --> 00:20:52,850
of what it's going to be like at camp.

351
00:20:52,850 --> 00:20:58,549
So we, we show them, uh, some
of the activities that they'll

352
00:20:58,609 --> 00:21:00,129
participate with the kids.

353
00:21:00,159 --> 00:21:03,779
We talk about emotional
literacy and what that means.

354
00:21:04,180 --> 00:21:09,350
We go hard in on self care because
we know it's important for them to

355
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:12,810
be looking after themselves first
before they can support a child.

356
00:21:13,710 --> 00:21:15,320
And then they're ready for camp.

357
00:21:17,060 --> 00:21:22,550
And then pre camp they do, uh, lots
of meetings, but they start, they

358
00:21:22,550 --> 00:21:29,020
can start as a mentor, but we do have
other sort of leadership positions

359
00:21:29,020 --> 00:21:30,920
that they can then move into.

360
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:35,010
So after they've done a few camps, so we
have other opportunities for mentors to

361
00:21:35,010 --> 00:21:37,349
then grow in the space of volunteering.

362
00:21:37,350 --> 00:21:45,049
So we can sort of upskill them to become
facilitators or leaders of our, program.

363
00:21:45,189 --> 00:21:50,729
So at camps, and then we also train
them to be facilitators online.

364
00:21:51,330 --> 00:21:57,620
So yeah, we really provide a place for
them if they want to just stay being

365
00:21:57,620 --> 00:21:59,089
a mentor, that's absolutely fine.

366
00:21:59,089 --> 00:22:03,439
But if they want to grow into something
and really give back, then there's an

367
00:22:03,889 --> 00:22:10,764
opportunity as well, which we've found
Has been really beneficial for them

368
00:22:10,774 --> 00:22:16,265
because honestly, it's so good for
their, a lot of them work corporately

369
00:22:16,265 --> 00:22:20,955
and then they say to me, this is a
place where I can come and I know I'm

370
00:22:20,955 --> 00:22:23,745
making a difference outside of my job.

371
00:22:24,564 --> 00:22:26,985
And it looks great on their resume.

372
00:22:28,045 --> 00:22:32,545
And I do know lots of people have
moved into jobs that they probably

373
00:22:32,545 --> 00:22:35,275
wouldn't have looked at if they
weren't volunteers for Filmagic.

374
00:22:35,715 --> 00:22:41,149
So, Yeah, I love that we have
that progression for them as well.

375
00:22:41,990 --> 00:22:44,629
Catherine: Yeah, and that's just
something that really interests me.

376
00:22:44,670 --> 00:22:49,080
Um, I've worked with volunteers
in my previous role at the Royal

377
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,860
Botanic Gardens and, and um, that's
something that is always a challenge

378
00:22:53,860 --> 00:22:56,084
is to be able to provide that.

379
00:22:56,085 --> 00:23:00,655
That progression, because really a lot
of the roles that volunteers are engaged

380
00:23:00,655 --> 00:23:04,805
for, there isn't that career progression
or, or that ability to step up.

381
00:23:05,125 --> 00:23:08,235
So that's amazing that, that you
can provide that opportunity.

382
00:23:10,685 --> 00:23:15,975
So, so tell me, all Liam, all
relationships have their challenges.

383
00:23:16,034 --> 00:23:19,964
You're married and also obviously
co founders of, of feel the magic.

384
00:23:19,965 --> 00:23:23,695
How do we ensure that you have,
you know, you talked about self

385
00:23:23,695 --> 00:23:25,435
care with the volunteers earlier.

386
00:23:25,964 --> 00:23:27,375
How do you ensure about.

387
00:23:27,675 --> 00:23:31,895
Boundaries and what stays
professional, private and, and

388
00:23:31,895 --> 00:23:33,725
allow time for your own self care.

389
00:23:34,415 --> 00:23:35,115
James: I'll start then.

390
00:23:35,225 --> 00:23:40,844
I think in the early days, there's no such
thing because you started it from home.

391
00:23:41,475 --> 00:23:41,634
No

392
00:23:41,734 --> 00:23:42,324
Kristy: such thing as

393
00:23:42,324 --> 00:23:42,834
James: boundaries.

394
00:23:43,984 --> 00:23:47,994
Or from a working, are you talking
about separating work and personal life?

395
00:23:48,474 --> 00:23:50,825
Kristy: It was all
intertwined in the beginning.

396
00:23:50,825 --> 00:23:51,095
Yeah.

397
00:23:51,705 --> 00:23:53,455
There's no start or end.

398
00:23:53,715 --> 00:23:55,125
It's just all encompassing.

399
00:23:55,465 --> 00:23:55,774
James: Yeah.

400
00:23:55,945 --> 00:23:56,915
So feel the magic.

401
00:23:58,545 --> 00:24:01,185
We immersed ourselves in Feel
the Magic, especially for the, at

402
00:24:01,185 --> 00:24:03,645
least the first five, six years.

403
00:24:03,695 --> 00:24:05,955
It was, we lived and breathed it.

404
00:24:06,075 --> 00:24:07,445
It was in our house.

405
00:24:07,445 --> 00:24:10,544
It was, you know, we had
volunteers stay at our house.

406
00:24:10,544 --> 00:24:11,774
We had a garage full.

407
00:24:12,645 --> 00:24:14,415
Just over time, it evolved.

408
00:24:14,415 --> 00:24:18,894
And, you know, I always tell
people when, when we had the office

409
00:24:18,894 --> 00:24:22,875
downstairs in our old house in
Sydney, you'd have to walk past the

410
00:24:22,875 --> 00:24:24,335
office to go upstairs to go to bed.

411
00:24:24,335 --> 00:24:27,885
And so many times I'd be walking past
and you'd hear the email notification.

412
00:24:27,885 --> 00:24:29,105
You go, Oh, I'll just quickly check that.

413
00:24:30,245 --> 00:24:34,445
And then an hour and a half later, you're
like, Oh God, I'm going to go to bed now.

414
00:24:34,875 --> 00:24:36,465
You know, that, that sort of stuff.

415
00:24:36,465 --> 00:24:40,344
I think, I think in any bit, whether
it's a nonprofit or a business, you've

416
00:24:40,344 --> 00:24:41,685
got to, you've just got to do that.

417
00:24:41,854 --> 00:24:44,644
I think if you want to want to be
successful or you want your business

418
00:24:44,654 --> 00:24:49,954
to be successful, you've got to get in,
get your hands dirty from a, I guess,

419
00:24:49,965 --> 00:24:54,435
from a, an emotional standpoint, I think
as, as we've matured and we've, we've

420
00:24:55,014 --> 00:24:58,784
got our own little family now, I think
there is that there's many times where

421
00:24:58,784 --> 00:25:00,215
Christie will say, Hey, that's enough.

422
00:25:00,215 --> 00:25:01,165
Now we won't talk about it.

423
00:25:01,909 --> 00:25:03,840
at dinner and then we won't talk about it.

424
00:25:04,570 --> 00:25:09,750
Uh, I think it's just having those
strict rules in place because And

425
00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:12,320
actually for me i've been away for the
last couple of years away from feel

426
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:17,019
the magic all together So I think I
think that made the the talking about

427
00:25:17,019 --> 00:25:21,640
feel the magic a lot easier as well Not
talking about feel the magic a lot easier

428
00:25:22,709 --> 00:25:26,470
Kristy: Yeah, and do you think the crux
of it was we found it really difficult

429
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:34,275
in the in the beginning to But I think
as we had Two small kids, we realize,

430
00:25:34,385 --> 00:25:37,155
oh, we have to switch this off sometimes.

431
00:25:37,155 --> 00:25:41,814
And now we're much better
at drawing the line.

432
00:25:44,075 --> 00:25:48,794
And I would say we work well
together and we always have

433
00:25:48,794 --> 00:25:53,634
done, because we have completely
separate roles within our business.

434
00:25:54,935 --> 00:26:01,995
I was Programs and People and James was
Fundraising and Relationships with, uh,

435
00:26:02,034 --> 00:26:09,735
Philanthropists and you know, out, out
speaking about philomagic, so yeah, we

436
00:26:09,735 --> 00:26:12,204
just, we just made it work, didn't we?

437
00:26:13,445 --> 00:26:15,635
James: Yeah, and I think that, I think
you highlighted the important thing is

438
00:26:15,645 --> 00:26:18,095
having your own roles, not crossing paths.

439
00:26:18,195 --> 00:26:22,005
Like if I was trying to do programs
and Christopher's trying to do parts of

440
00:26:22,005 --> 00:26:24,845
fundraising, or we're trying to tell each
other how to do our jobs, it would have

441
00:26:25,574 --> 00:26:29,485
erupted many times over, but I think we,
I think we just stayed in our own lane and

442
00:26:29,545 --> 00:26:32,074
supported each other when we needed to.

443
00:26:32,125 --> 00:26:35,285
But again, in high, I think, I think our
priorities changed really, sorry, our

444
00:26:35,445 --> 00:26:38,775
priorities really changed once we had
the small, once we had new, new babies.

445
00:26:39,905 --> 00:26:40,785
I think you realize that.

446
00:26:42,135 --> 00:26:44,495
Time is precious and I do need your time.

447
00:26:44,595 --> 00:26:49,855
So I think if I speak for myself
organically, I kind of didn't want to be

448
00:26:50,715 --> 00:26:52,425
answering emails at 11 o'clock at night

449
00:26:52,975 --> 00:26:53,035
Kristy: I

450
00:26:53,035 --> 00:26:55,745
James: wanted to be in bed because
I needed to get up the next morning

451
00:26:55,745 --> 00:27:00,314
because my One of my boys would have been
waking up early and again maturity and

452
00:27:00,644 --> 00:27:06,215
yeah comes with maturity and time and
circumstances I guess but yeah, i'll never

453
00:27:06,215 --> 00:27:10,415
regret the effort we put in Especially
those first few because you need to do

454
00:27:10,415 --> 00:27:13,770
that And like I said, in any business or
charity, you have to put in the hard work.

455
00:27:16,780 --> 00:27:20,990
Catherine: That's, that's something that
is, yeah, is, is really impressive is

456
00:27:20,990 --> 00:27:25,869
that, that commitment at that early stage,
because if you hadn't actually put that

457
00:27:25,869 --> 00:27:28,050
commitment in, do you think you would

458
00:27:28,060 --> 00:27:29,080
James: be where you are today?

459
00:27:30,295 --> 00:27:36,125
No, because, no, not at all, because
there was many times, there wasn't, there

460
00:27:36,125 --> 00:27:37,645
wasn't, sorry, let me rephrase that.

461
00:27:38,575 --> 00:27:42,245
There wasn't a day where we thought,
this isn't working, let's stop.

462
00:27:42,895 --> 00:27:45,184
But there were plenty of days
of going, this is, this is

463
00:27:45,185 --> 00:27:47,045
hard, should we keep going?

464
00:27:47,875 --> 00:27:51,985
And again, starting a charity,
there's no, there's no money in it.

465
00:27:52,375 --> 00:27:58,110
If this was our business, we'd be, very
happy, very happy with the outcome.

466
00:27:58,389 --> 00:28:03,159
But we're, I guess our reward is, is the
difference we've, we've made, so to speak.

467
00:28:03,159 --> 00:28:06,770
So it is a, I think going back to
what I originally said at the start,

468
00:28:06,830 --> 00:28:10,759
that, that knowing that this, I to
explain that knowing that you're on

469
00:28:10,759 --> 00:28:15,030
the right journey doing something and
just to trust and keep going with it.

470
00:28:15,810 --> 00:28:16,850
It's a feeling I haven't had

471
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:20,040
much in my whole life.

472
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:21,990
I just think this, this needed to be done.

473
00:28:23,090 --> 00:28:24,389
Kristy: It was, and it was quite a few.

474
00:28:25,185 --> 00:28:29,345
Moments in time where, you know,
James would be like, that's

475
00:28:29,345 --> 00:28:30,825
it, I'm throwing in the towel.

476
00:28:31,245 --> 00:28:35,195
And we'd be like, no, talk him
through it, and then vice versa.

477
00:28:35,295 --> 00:28:38,434
I'd be like, oh no, we can't
do this anymore, it's too

478
00:28:38,435 --> 00:28:39,415
hard, and he'd be like, no, no.

479
00:28:39,415 --> 00:28:43,905
So we had the benefit of that
support of helping each other

480
00:28:43,935 --> 00:28:44,854
through the tough times.

481
00:28:46,050 --> 00:28:49,980
And also, even though it was hard,
there were, James said it before, and I

482
00:28:50,110 --> 00:28:54,370
think this really wraps up a little bit
of the magic that happened, because I

483
00:28:54,370 --> 00:28:59,759
truly believe there were people upstairs
orchestrating to support, because we,

484
00:28:59,810 --> 00:29:04,709
when we came back and said we were
going to start a charity, I don't think

485
00:29:04,709 --> 00:29:07,830
there was any one person that said,
Oh yeah, that's a great idea, do that.

486
00:29:08,429 --> 00:29:10,889
Most people like, Oh, okay.

487
00:29:10,919 --> 00:29:16,195
Some people, We even reached out to people
who had charities and they strongly advise

488
00:29:16,195 --> 00:29:21,485
not, and it's really hard to get your DGR
status and it's really hard to register.

489
00:29:21,814 --> 00:29:23,894
And we just didn't find those right.

490
00:29:24,085 --> 00:29:25,334
We didn't have those roadblocks.

491
00:29:25,334 --> 00:29:30,648
And so they were kind of sparks
of energy to go, Oh, this is

492
00:29:30,648 --> 00:29:32,545
obviously worthy, let's keep going.

493
00:29:32,545 --> 00:29:38,825
So we, we just had those moments in time
and we'd, you know, stumble across people.

494
00:29:39,580 --> 00:29:44,110
Who would donate or become, you know,
we've got a founding philanthropist who's

495
00:29:44,110 --> 00:29:49,590
been with us the whole time and even the
way that that fell into place was we met

496
00:29:49,630 --> 00:29:55,645
this person who met that person and then
we you know, you can't You can't plan

497
00:29:55,645 --> 00:30:00,765
for those events to happen and there were
lots of those that went made us think

498
00:30:01,395 --> 00:30:04,105
okay this is meant to be let's keep going.

499
00:30:04,205 --> 00:30:04,455
So

500
00:30:06,205 --> 00:30:09,735
Catherine: yeah that's encouraging I
have to say because you know I'm I'm

501
00:30:09,875 --> 00:30:16,785
only not even a year in yet and uh
at times it can feel quite isolated

502
00:30:16,925 --> 00:30:18,745
and or isolating I should say.

503
00:30:19,145 --> 00:30:23,895
And, and sometimes you can't see
light at the end of the tunnel.

504
00:30:24,135 --> 00:30:25,725
So it's, it's encouraging.

505
00:30:25,815 --> 00:30:31,785
It sounds like that if someone is
doing something that they're doing for

506
00:30:31,845 --> 00:30:38,615
purpose, that each little part of the
jigsaw puzzle should be an achievement.

507
00:30:38,615 --> 00:30:39,175
I suppose.

508
00:30:39,285 --> 00:30:40,205
Is that what I'm hearing?

509
00:30:41,015 --> 00:30:41,225
Kristy: Yeah.

510
00:30:41,665 --> 00:30:42,395
James: Yeah.

511
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,750
And I don't, it's hard, it's hard to
articulate I've got to say because

512
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,360
it is that inner knowing that you've
got to keep going and I think if you

513
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:58,740
ever are blessed enough to have that
knowing then keep going even during

514
00:30:58,740 --> 00:31:00,800
the hard, because the hard days are
going to be there no matter what.

515
00:31:03,050 --> 00:31:06,923
Kristy: The hard days will make
it satisfying too at the end.

516
00:31:06,923 --> 00:31:10,170
Oh wow, we did that, we got through that.

517
00:31:11,100 --> 00:31:15,820
We are also have over the years
been surrounded and supported

518
00:31:15,850 --> 00:31:21,150
by the most incredible volunteer
base that you could imagine.

519
00:31:21,180 --> 00:31:27,070
So yeah, that support, we wouldn't have
got anywhere near where we are either.

520
00:31:27,610 --> 00:31:33,240
That's the base that keeps us going
and deliver our programs to the,

521
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:38,840
to, you know, top notch programs
because we have those people.

522
00:31:41,990 --> 00:31:44,180
James: And you know, sorry, you go.

523
00:31:46,460 --> 00:31:49,930
Oh, I was just, I was just
going to say it's, it's, it's

524
00:31:49,930 --> 00:31:51,010
a charity that makes sense.

525
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,860
And I think everyone, you know, the
one in 20 that kids that lose someone,

526
00:31:55,860 --> 00:31:59,830
but there's so many adults out there
that have lost either lost as a child

527
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,370
or an adult that don't necessarily know
how to talk about it or can relate.

528
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:05,730
So it's a relatable cause.

529
00:32:05,730 --> 00:32:10,500
It's, it is an easy sell because, you
know, I think Christie said it earlier

530
00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:14,800
that volunteers come to our organization
knowing they're making a difference.

531
00:32:16,090 --> 00:32:19,660
Um, I always use an example every
time whenever I did a talk that

532
00:32:19,660 --> 00:32:20,910
I used to donate to a charity.

533
00:32:21,420 --> 00:32:24,710
Um, I used to have a sign writing
business, but pretty feel the magic

534
00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:27,940
and I'd have charities ringing
me all the time, every day, at

535
00:32:27,940 --> 00:32:29,090
least five or six times a day.

536
00:32:29,100 --> 00:32:31,370
And it's overwhelmingly annoying.

537
00:32:31,540 --> 00:32:35,430
You think far out is I'm charitable,
but I'm not that charitable.

538
00:32:35,590 --> 00:32:36,170
And I'm not.

539
00:32:36,490 --> 00:32:40,450
I signed, I did sign up to a monthly
membership with, with one charity,

540
00:32:40,450 --> 00:32:43,919
I won't mention the name, and I
donated, I think it was like, I don't

541
00:32:44,300 --> 00:32:49,890
know, 60 bucks a month, which, you
know, it's not huge money, but surely

542
00:32:49,890 --> 00:32:52,610
over a number of years, that makes a
difference to someone, and not once

543
00:32:52,610 --> 00:32:54,360
did I ever know where my money went.

544
00:32:54,930 --> 00:32:57,380
I think I was, I didn't even
think I claimed it on tax, I just,

545
00:32:57,470 --> 00:33:00,300
just, it was just, just this money
that was going out every day.

546
00:33:01,150 --> 00:33:02,220
So I always thought that.

547
00:33:02,555 --> 00:33:03,425
You've got to do it different.

548
00:33:03,425 --> 00:33:06,185
You can't just be a charity
and just take people's money.

549
00:33:06,185 --> 00:33:09,405
You've got to provide that experience.

550
00:33:10,025 --> 00:33:12,995
And then you might be able to ask
for some sort of dollars in exchange.

551
00:33:13,455 --> 00:33:17,885
And what we've created organically, I
must say, with, with our volunteer base

552
00:33:17,885 --> 00:33:23,325
is they get just, they get just as much
out of the work we do than our kids do,

553
00:33:23,905 --> 00:33:28,005
as much as the kids do, because they
can see the difference they've made.

554
00:33:28,585 --> 00:33:30,685
They've connected with other
adults who love being there.

555
00:33:31,865 --> 00:33:36,125
And it's just this community and culture
that is supportive and, you know, what I

556
00:33:36,125 --> 00:33:40,575
love seeing is this whole group of mentors
that were bereaved kids and they've come

557
00:33:40,575 --> 00:33:44,015
together as adults that, that then never
would have met anyone else in their

558
00:33:44,015 --> 00:33:46,145
situation if it wasn't for Feel the Magic.

559
00:33:46,375 --> 00:33:49,215
So, yeah, I just love seeing the
connections that have been made

560
00:33:49,215 --> 00:33:52,955
that, that spread far and wide
through, through the organization.

561
00:33:53,610 --> 00:33:55,770
Which, again, definitely wasn't
our intention at the start.

562
00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,640
You've developed quite the community.

563
00:34:00,470 --> 00:34:01,080
Absolutely.

564
00:34:01,910 --> 00:34:02,190
Yep.

565
00:34:02,950 --> 00:34:06,830
Catherine: And James, you were
talking about how your mother had,

566
00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:12,200
had passed away, and that was one
of the catalysts that, that led to

567
00:34:12,430 --> 00:34:14,140
you starting the, um, the charity.

568
00:34:14,650 --> 00:34:16,990
And that wasn't the
only one though, was it?

569
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,890
James: Yeah, I lost, I lost my dad
at, uh, as a, at 25, as a young adult.

570
00:34:21,980 --> 00:34:28,150
Dad had cancer for two and a bit years and
he died in, uh, I think it was April 2024.

571
00:34:28,830 --> 00:34:33,680
No, sorry 2005 and it
was at dad's funeral.

572
00:34:34,190 --> 00:34:34,620
It's funny.

573
00:34:34,620 --> 00:34:37,840
I share this if I may share
this share this story I've had

574
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,910
three major losses in my life.

575
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,569
The first was dad's in 2005 at age 25.

576
00:34:44,250 --> 00:34:46,660
I Didn't really grieve.

577
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,035
I think I shed one tear and
then as soon as the The funeral

578
00:34:50,035 --> 00:34:51,315
was over and the wake was over.

579
00:34:52,015 --> 00:34:54,455
I was in action mode because
I wanted to take care of mom.

580
00:34:54,815 --> 00:34:55,965
Mom was living in Queensland.

581
00:34:55,965 --> 00:34:56,665
We were living in Sydney.

582
00:34:56,665 --> 00:34:57,805
I wanted to move mom down.

583
00:34:58,305 --> 00:35:02,275
So it kind of gave me, and being 25, I
wasn't really taking life too serious.

584
00:35:02,275 --> 00:35:05,815
So it was almost like a, I actually
felt a shift in my brain to mature.

585
00:35:06,405 --> 00:35:10,205
And then we set out on a path to,
to house my mom down here with us.

586
00:35:11,135 --> 00:35:11,675
And.

587
00:35:11,940 --> 00:35:15,990
That was the journey, but you know, I
kind of got caught up in this material

588
00:35:15,990 --> 00:35:20,120
world and making good money and, uh,
and then all of a sudden lost mum

589
00:35:20,190 --> 00:35:22,110
unexpectedly on my 31st birthday.

590
00:35:22,970 --> 00:35:26,090
So that was my second loss and
that was a, that was horrific.

591
00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:29,590
It was the shock and I tried
to suppress that and keep going

592
00:35:29,590 --> 00:35:31,480
forward, but it wasn't working.

593
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,580
And that, that, that lasted, that
pain lasted for about two years purely

594
00:35:35,580 --> 00:35:39,790
because I wasn't dealing with it or
wasn't really talking about it and

595
00:35:39,790 --> 00:35:40,800
I didn't know how to deal with it.

596
00:35:40,890 --> 00:35:43,210
So I just thought the best thing
to do is try work, work it away.

597
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:46,490
And then obviously feel the
magic's founded and all that

598
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:47,590
great stuff that comes with it.

599
00:35:47,590 --> 00:35:52,380
But last year on Christmas Eve, I
lost my little mate, Joey, who is my

600
00:35:52,540 --> 00:35:53,740
eight and a half year old chihuahua.

601
00:35:54,630 --> 00:35:57,660
And he was, he was my
best mate and he died.

602
00:35:58,290 --> 00:36:01,110
Something bit him and he
had an anaphylactic reaction

603
00:36:01,110 --> 00:36:02,120
on Christmas Eve night.

604
00:36:02,350 --> 00:36:04,850
And that, that was devastating.

605
00:36:05,150 --> 00:36:07,780
You know, Joey was there when
we first founded feel the magic.

606
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:08,270
No, sorry.

607
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,520
He was a couple of years in, so he would,
when we're in the building stage, Joey

608
00:36:11,570 --> 00:36:15,595
was always with me always on my lap or
he's on my desk sometimes because he's so

609
00:36:15,625 --> 00:36:19,895
little but he was just there and he was a
big personality and to have him taken on

610
00:36:19,895 --> 00:36:24,665
christmas eve was was gut wrenching and
i cried as much as i wanted to avoid it

611
00:36:24,665 --> 00:36:30,535
i cried nine days straight for for joey
but i've got to say after the nine days

612
00:36:30,535 --> 00:36:35,575
i actually felt lighter more accepting
so it was three different experiences

613
00:36:35,575 --> 00:36:38,155
where joey was just Rip my heart out.

614
00:36:38,915 --> 00:36:42,175
I dealt with it, which in a way that
I feel is the right way to grieve.

615
00:36:42,335 --> 00:36:47,625
Mums was a two year journey of self
destruction and self sabotage because

616
00:36:47,625 --> 00:36:48,475
I didn't want to deal with it.

617
00:36:48,625 --> 00:36:52,735
And Dad was just in a way stoic because
I thought right that's it funeral's

618
00:36:52,745 --> 00:36:56,765
done let's let's get on with things
because I had to be I had to mature so

619
00:36:56,765 --> 00:37:00,385
there's three different experiences but
I honestly feel like from the lessons

620
00:37:00,385 --> 00:37:03,755
I've learned with feel the magic the
way I've dealt with Joey I can look

621
00:37:03,755 --> 00:37:08,655
back on and feel proud because that's
how a healthy grieving process should

622
00:37:08,655 --> 00:37:10,755
look like and that was my little dog.

623
00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:17,390
Catherine: But it's interesting
though, because sometimes that is

624
00:37:17,390 --> 00:37:22,850
what it takes is the unconditional
love that you get from a pet

625
00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:24,000
Kristy: that,

626
00:37:24,310 --> 00:37:28,410
Catherine: that probably sometimes he
just hits us the hardest because we don't

627
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:33,484
have all of that other emotional baggage
with it, you know, and I find that.

628
00:37:33,775 --> 00:37:38,965
You know, when we had to, our cat
got quite sick and we had to make

629
00:37:38,965 --> 00:37:41,035
the decision to, to euthanize her.

630
00:37:41,035 --> 00:37:45,885
And it was really hard to come back
into the house because you don't

631
00:37:45,895 --> 00:37:47,295
realize how much they're there

632
00:37:48,185 --> 00:37:48,425
Kristy: until

633
00:37:48,775 --> 00:37:48,875
Catherine: they're not.

634
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,140
You know, and I think it's that constant,
as you hear my cat in the background,

635
00:37:53,570 --> 00:37:58,660
another one, it is that constant, you
know, companionship that you do, you do

636
00:37:58,660 --> 00:38:00,620
find, and just that loyalty and love.

637
00:38:00,620 --> 00:38:05,680
So, you know, sometimes I'm not
surprised when people say that

638
00:38:05,740 --> 00:38:11,040
they are really, really emotionally
affected by, and find that they

639
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,178
grieve the most when their pet dies.

640
00:38:13,178 --> 00:38:13,547
Yeah.

641
00:38:13,547 --> 00:38:13,917
James: Yeah.

642
00:38:13,917 --> 00:38:15,394
It was very sad.

643
00:38:18,385 --> 00:38:20,635
Catherine: And Christy, you've
had your own experience.

644
00:38:21,615 --> 00:38:22,075
Yeah,

645
00:38:22,125 --> 00:38:27,805
Kristy: so, um, I lost my brother Corey
to leukaemia when I was a young girl.

646
00:38:28,775 --> 00:38:29,435
Um,

647
00:38:31,835 --> 00:38:34,325
so I was only two when he left.

648
00:38:34,865 --> 00:38:42,550
However, the impact, I think what impacted
me the most is, Living in a family

649
00:38:42,550 --> 00:38:45,010
that's grieving was really difficult.

650
00:38:45,090 --> 00:38:49,240
So, at the time he was
certainly my best friend.

651
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:54,270
He, I was only a toddler, but
he was sort of bound to a chair.

652
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,400
And anything I'm sharing is It's
stuff that I've heard secondhand,

653
00:38:59,410 --> 00:39:01,040
which is tricky as well.

654
00:39:01,660 --> 00:39:03,450
I don't have my own memories of him.

655
00:39:03,450 --> 00:39:06,650
It's all secondhand and it's
photos and things like that.

656
00:39:06,650 --> 00:39:11,390
But yeah, according to mum, I,
I, you know, would lay in his lap

657
00:39:11,820 --> 00:39:14,250
most days while he was really sick.

658
00:39:14,250 --> 00:39:15,930
And then one day he was gone.

659
00:39:15,940 --> 00:39:20,310
And so developmentally I wasn't
able to understand what happened.

660
00:39:20,310 --> 00:39:22,080
I just knew there was a deep loss there.

661
00:39:23,055 --> 00:39:26,945
And that kind of didn't really
surface for me until I was about 20.

662
00:39:27,895 --> 00:39:31,185
And then at that time I sought,
you know, therapeutic support.

663
00:39:32,235 --> 00:39:38,325
And I still do because it has been
such, had such an impact on my life.

664
00:39:39,035 --> 00:39:46,485
And so that's kind of my connection and
dedication to these grieving kids is that

665
00:39:46,485 --> 00:39:50,675
my family could really have used support
throughout that time when he passed away.

666
00:39:52,175 --> 00:39:56,545
Because no one knows what to
do or say or how to move on.

667
00:39:56,545 --> 00:39:59,285
And, you know, we all,
everyone in my family, there's.

668
00:40:01,405 --> 00:40:03,440
Mom, dad and sister, older sister.

669
00:40:03,715 --> 00:40:06,325
So my brother was in
between the two of us.

670
00:40:06,355 --> 00:40:06,655
Yeah.

671
00:40:06,655 --> 00:40:11,245
We've all dealt with our grief in
different ways and positive and negative.

672
00:40:11,515 --> 00:40:16,325
And so yeah, to be able to
give back and support kids.

673
00:40:16,325 --> 00:40:20,995
And also I have the benefit of, we,
we support a lot of kids who don't

674
00:40:20,995 --> 00:40:25,865
have physical memories of their,
their family member who's died so.

675
00:40:26,375 --> 00:40:30,655
Being able to share that and
relate to them, tell them they're

676
00:40:30,655 --> 00:40:35,380
not alone is, you know, something
really special that forever.

677
00:40:36,090 --> 00:40:38,170
I'll be proud of that we get to do.

678
00:40:38,950 --> 00:40:41,200
Uh, it's quite emotional, but worthy.

679
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,020
Catherine: That's really beautiful.

680
00:40:45,100 --> 00:40:51,030
It's something that I, I hadn't thought
of was the, the, the physical memory.

681
00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:52,760
Yeah.

682
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:57,330
And, and just that, that age or,
yeah, that's, that's really special.

683
00:40:57,330 --> 00:40:59,180
Thank you for both sharing your stories.

684
00:40:59,940 --> 00:41:04,610
From your experience, what do you think
that you find the most challenging

685
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,270
for families when they come to you?

686
00:41:08,125 --> 00:41:12,655
Kristy: Most challenging is tricky because
there's, you know, a variety of things,

687
00:41:12,885 --> 00:41:18,775
but I think for a parent, for a parent,
it's the struggle of being in so much

688
00:41:18,795 --> 00:41:25,895
pain yourself, and as a parent myself,
I think we always find it easy to push

689
00:41:25,895 --> 00:41:29,965
us out on our own, but when it comes
to our child's pain, we're all over it.

690
00:41:30,075 --> 00:41:36,105
And so, I think it takes a while for
the parent to work through their own

691
00:41:36,115 --> 00:41:40,635
grief because they're so focused on
making sure their child's okay and

692
00:41:40,855 --> 00:41:42,195
they just don't know what to do.

693
00:41:42,515 --> 00:41:45,815
So they don't know how to help
their kids and so that's where

694
00:41:45,815 --> 00:41:47,955
we come in to support them.

695
00:41:49,905 --> 00:41:56,095
But what I know from working with so
many families and the families that

696
00:41:56,095 --> 00:42:03,970
I see that really thrive beyond grief
is the families where the parent is

697
00:42:03,970 --> 00:42:11,040
addressing their grief first, because no
matter what else happens, at least the

698
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,630
child's being modelled healthy grieving.

699
00:42:14,770 --> 00:42:18,170
Also the children have, that
have all of the information.

700
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:20,920
Do better in their grief.

701
00:42:21,140 --> 00:42:27,040
So if there's anything that's any
information that's withheld or that's

702
00:42:27,570 --> 00:42:32,480
maybe really sensitive around the
topic of how they died and they

703
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:38,544
don't have all of the information
throughout time that just Escalates.

704
00:42:38,545 --> 00:42:41,565
Children are very
intuitive and they get it.

705
00:42:41,855 --> 00:42:45,285
They know they don't have all the
information and they have a really

706
00:42:45,325 --> 00:42:47,075
clever way of making it about them.

707
00:42:48,035 --> 00:42:49,575
It must have been because of me.

708
00:42:49,605 --> 00:42:55,285
And yeah, so I would say the biggest
challenge is, you know, trying to support

709
00:42:55,305 --> 00:43:01,435
the parent to support themselves and
then to not just focus on the kids.

710
00:43:01,740 --> 00:43:03,060
That they're important to.

711
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,650
Kids are naturally amazing at grieving.

712
00:43:07,810 --> 00:43:12,290
If when they come into our space,
we create a safe space for them.

713
00:43:13,460 --> 00:43:19,100
They just naturally express themselves
and then move on, go and play footy

714
00:43:19,670 --> 00:43:23,840
and then come back into the group and
express themselves and then, Oh, okay.

715
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:24,830
I'm, I'm good with that.

716
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,460
Now let's, let's go hang
out and smile and laugh.

717
00:43:29,460 --> 00:43:32,650
And it's not that, you know,
you need to have grief.

718
00:43:34,565 --> 00:43:38,705
And the presence of grief
means there's no happiness.

719
00:43:38,725 --> 00:43:43,085
They do really well at saying, I'm
grieving and I'm enjoying this moment.

720
00:43:43,125 --> 00:43:44,805
I'm grieving and I'm happy.

721
00:43:44,805 --> 00:43:49,525
And I think as adults, we find it
really hard to articulate in our

722
00:43:49,545 --> 00:43:51,445
brain that it's okay to be both.

723
00:43:52,945 --> 00:43:58,425
When we're grieving, There's so much
sadness and so much pain, but it's

724
00:43:58,425 --> 00:44:05,965
still okay to be happy or joyful or
they can coexist at any one time.

725
00:44:08,285 --> 00:44:12,205
James: I would, I would say from,
from my experience, it's, it's the

726
00:44:12,205 --> 00:44:15,255
isolation that grief presents families.

727
00:44:15,515 --> 00:44:19,465
So, you know, kids not knowing
anyone else in their situation

728
00:44:19,485 --> 00:44:21,485
other than their, their siblings.

729
00:44:22,020 --> 00:44:26,950
and uh, widowed parents
that are doing this alone.

730
00:44:27,470 --> 00:44:28,570
They don't know anyone else.

731
00:44:28,700 --> 00:44:32,290
And because we live in a society where
no one really knows what to say or do,

732
00:44:33,340 --> 00:44:37,490
they're usually, not our, our cast is
probably a bit traumatic, but they are

733
00:44:38,340 --> 00:44:40,730
avoided because no one knows what to say.

734
00:44:40,730 --> 00:44:41,980
So they don't want to say the wrong thing.

735
00:44:42,610 --> 00:44:46,790
So, you know, there's been heaps of, I
know families that have said that, you

736
00:44:46,790 --> 00:44:50,100
know, their closest friends would be on
the, walking towards each other and they'd

737
00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:53,080
cross the street just to avoid them,
just to avoid an awkward conversation.

738
00:44:53,855 --> 00:44:58,165
And a lack of understanding, you know,
another example of school teachers

739
00:44:58,665 --> 00:45:03,655
wondering what's wrong with the kid or
children because they're not themselves,

740
00:45:04,775 --> 00:45:08,495
you know, and it's only been six months
since their family member has died.

741
00:45:09,615 --> 00:45:14,975
So just that, just that lack of
emotional intelligence that, you

742
00:45:14,975 --> 00:45:19,055
know, influential people in their
life should know better and should

743
00:45:19,145 --> 00:45:20,915
accommodate a lot better, but they don't.

744
00:45:21,335 --> 00:45:26,005
You know, I was told a story by
a, by a parent where a child was.

745
00:45:26,420 --> 00:45:30,490
Continually playing up at school and the
mother called, sorry, the teacher called

746
00:45:30,490 --> 00:45:34,810
the mother and she said, you know, your
son's doing this, that and the other.

747
00:45:34,910 --> 00:45:35,940
Is there anything going on?

748
00:45:36,490 --> 00:45:38,510
She said, yeah, you know, his dad's died.

749
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,390
She said, yeah, yeah, but
that, that was six months ago.

750
00:45:40,530 --> 00:45:41,520
Is there anything else that's happened?

751
00:45:42,170 --> 00:45:44,650
Now that, and that to
me shouldn't be in that.

752
00:45:45,180 --> 00:45:47,140
You shouldn't be a teacher if
that's, if that's your level

753
00:45:47,140 --> 00:45:48,110
of emotional intelligence.

754
00:45:48,130 --> 00:45:52,460
If you think in six months time, a
young man is, is meant to get over

755
00:45:52,460 --> 00:45:55,180
his dad, you, you're kidding yourself.

756
00:45:55,390 --> 00:45:55,890
And that's,

757
00:45:57,990 --> 00:46:00,800
that also just cements for that
boy that he's, that he's different,

758
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,830
that his life's in a bit of a
shambles and he's acting that out.

759
00:46:05,030 --> 00:46:08,400
So who is there to support that child
and who is there to support that

760
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,340
teacher so she, so she can know better.

761
00:46:11,550 --> 00:46:15,090
And there's multiple stories that
I've heard over the years just like

762
00:46:15,090 --> 00:46:17,880
that, where you just, you know,
come on, let's, let's get over it.

763
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:19,030
And to be fair.

764
00:46:19,620 --> 00:46:21,560
When I lost my dad, that's how I felt.

765
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:22,430
I've got to get over this.

766
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:23,200
So it's, it's this.

767
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,910
It's an unspoken rule that you just
need to get on with it, but there's a

768
00:46:27,910 --> 00:46:33,270
better way to do it because the last
thing we want is people just trying to

769
00:46:33,270 --> 00:46:36,510
get over it and all of a sudden they're
teenagers, they're young adults and

770
00:46:36,510 --> 00:46:40,200
they're drinking too much and it comes
out in the wrong ways or they're taking

771
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:41,650
drugs and it comes out in the wrong ways.

772
00:46:42,130 --> 00:46:45,530
So, they're best learning the tools
necessary now, so that they are

773
00:46:45,590 --> 00:46:47,060
healthy functioning human beings.

774
00:46:47,950 --> 00:46:51,310
But that takes, that takes a lot
of understanding from all angles.

775
00:46:54,010 --> 00:46:57,490
Catherine: And there is some really
amazing resources that you have on your

776
00:46:57,490 --> 00:47:02,630
website, and also there's some additional
resources on the CriticalInfo website

777
00:47:02,630 --> 00:47:03,720
that we'll put in the show notes.

778
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:08,960
where people can get assistance when
they're dealing with, with grieving,

779
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:13,640
uh, and also about how to speak to
someone, you know, who is grieving

780
00:47:13,690 --> 00:47:15,480
and, and how to have a conversation.

781
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,030
Because at the end of the day,
they're still the same person that you

782
00:47:19,030 --> 00:47:23,963
actually went to the footy with, or,
you know, watch the, the sidelines on

783
00:47:23,963 --> 00:47:26,039
the soccer, the kids play soccer, so.

784
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:28,510
Yeah, we'll definitely share those.

785
00:47:29,140 --> 00:47:29,480
Awesome.

786
00:47:30,130 --> 00:47:36,730
Now, you've engaged, uh, HuberSocial to
write a social impact report from 2017

787
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:38,890
to 2020 on the work that you've done.

788
00:47:39,470 --> 00:47:43,370
What did you learn from these reports
and, and how have the, the findings

789
00:47:43,380 --> 00:47:44,970
impacted the work that you do?

790
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:53,810
Kristy: So we've engaged with HuberSocial
right up until We're still engaged

791
00:47:53,820 --> 00:47:57,280
with Hoover Social to do social
impact reports because it was really

792
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,700
important for us to make sure that we
were hearing from the horse's mouth

793
00:48:01,030 --> 00:48:05,670
whether or not we're actually making
an impact on the well being of our

794
00:48:06,310 --> 00:48:07,830
beautiful kids that come through.

795
00:48:07,860 --> 00:48:14,570
So the way that we've used the information
is to ensure that the outcomes that we've

796
00:48:14,570 --> 00:48:20,220
laid out, we're actually meeting and
improving their well being over time.

797
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:26,280
So through the surveys, they do
a pre camp, they do a post camp,

798
00:48:26,310 --> 00:48:27,760
and then a three month follow up.

799
00:48:28,500 --> 00:48:32,370
So we can really lay out the
scope of the impact as well.

800
00:48:32,930 --> 00:48:35,690
It's really important for us to make
sure that we're not just sending them

801
00:48:35,690 --> 00:48:37,100
home and then it's out the window.

802
00:48:37,630 --> 00:48:42,060
So, because one of the key things
is that we empower them with the

803
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:47,100
tools, practical ones, easy ones,
that they can do anywhere at any time

804
00:48:47,670 --> 00:48:49,490
to self soothe and self regulate.

805
00:48:50,395 --> 00:48:55,855
And so that three month survey just
sort of checks in to make sure we're

806
00:48:55,855 --> 00:48:58,725
meeting that requirement of our outcome.

807
00:48:58,905 --> 00:49:05,655
But yeah, it's, it's incredible to see,
um, the increase in their wellbeing

808
00:49:05,725 --> 00:49:10,685
overall when they come through our
camp program to not doing the program.

809
00:49:11,755 --> 00:49:13,299
That's been really important for us.

810
00:49:14,620 --> 00:49:17,630
Catherine: And has there been anything
that you've learned through those

811
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:22,930
studies that you've gone, Oh, okay,
we need to modify here or add here.

812
00:49:23,430 --> 00:49:24,510
I mean, it depends.

813
00:49:26,260 --> 00:49:28,490
Kristy: There's not been
a lot of modification.

814
00:49:29,430 --> 00:49:34,535
The modifications probably When it
comes to the content at camp, that

815
00:49:35,025 --> 00:49:37,455
has been pretty consistent throughout.

816
00:49:37,455 --> 00:49:41,165
Of course, we add in different
fun activities to still meet the

817
00:49:41,165 --> 00:49:44,745
same outcomes, but the outcomes
of camp have been the same

818
00:49:44,855 --> 00:49:46,595
consistently throughout time.

819
00:49:47,285 --> 00:49:52,025
What we have improved on through
these surveys is the pre and post

820
00:49:52,305 --> 00:49:54,845
camp follow ups or introductions.

821
00:49:55,285 --> 00:49:59,485
So building their capacity
pre camp and then following

822
00:49:59,485 --> 00:50:01,445
up post is making sure that.

823
00:50:02,255 --> 00:50:07,465
They're supported in a holistic way
and not just while they're at camps.

824
00:50:08,235 --> 00:50:14,065
So I think that's really informed how much
information they need coming into camp.

825
00:50:14,105 --> 00:50:20,215
So rather than maybe having two touch
points with us, they now have a series

826
00:50:20,225 --> 00:50:25,945
of touch points coming into a camp,
but every person has a, or sorry, every

827
00:50:25,965 --> 00:50:31,275
parent has a phone call with our intake
person that goes, you know, anywhere

828
00:50:31,275 --> 00:50:33,345
between half an hour and an hour.

829
00:50:33,345 --> 00:50:33,479
Yeah.

830
00:50:33,930 --> 00:50:37,510
where the parent can tell their
story and talk about their children.

831
00:50:37,970 --> 00:50:45,180
And that implementation has been,
has changed the scope of the way the

832
00:50:45,180 --> 00:50:48,920
kids come in because now we're really
clear about what the kids needs are,

833
00:50:50,110 --> 00:50:56,110
where they're at with their grief,
what do they, what do they need, and

834
00:50:56,170 --> 00:50:58,590
do they need extra support coming in.

835
00:50:58,650 --> 00:51:04,280
So, you know, often if kids have any
special needs, like me, we have a

836
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,730
lot of kids come through with, you
know, Neurodivergence of some sort.

837
00:51:08,290 --> 00:51:10,910
And so some of those kids need
just a little extra support.

838
00:51:10,910 --> 00:51:15,060
And cause we've identified that really
early, we can put those in place for them

839
00:51:15,060 --> 00:51:16,730
to have a really positive experience.

840
00:51:17,140 --> 00:51:20,960
So I think that's been
the most important thing.

841
00:51:21,470 --> 00:51:24,670
There's been a couple of findings of
light, especially we haven't released

842
00:51:24,670 --> 00:51:27,669
the findings from the last year.

843
00:51:27,750 --> 00:51:32,119
We're just finishing off the
report, but the report from

844
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,990
2023 had an increase of anxiety.

845
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:42,880
And throughout the camp process, and
as we sort of delve deeper into those

846
00:51:42,890 --> 00:51:47,700
findings, we realize, oh, okay, it's
actually not that anxiety wasn't

847
00:51:47,710 --> 00:51:49,540
present before they're coming to camp.

848
00:51:49,590 --> 00:51:52,340
It's that they're actually
addressing it when they come to camp.

849
00:51:53,070 --> 00:51:58,220
So when they come in, there's a place
for them to allow that to come up, talk

850
00:51:58,220 --> 00:52:01,650
it through, and then they have this
strategy because yes, while there's the

851
00:52:01,650 --> 00:52:03,780
presence of anxiety while they're at camp.

852
00:52:05,145 --> 00:52:11,145
The level of, um, their ability or
their knowledge that has improved

853
00:52:11,195 --> 00:52:16,275
around seeking help, self soothing,
self regulation has increased.

854
00:52:17,025 --> 00:52:20,855
So, yes, we've heightened them slightly.

855
00:52:21,175 --> 00:52:24,625
There's the presence of emotions,
but we shouldn't be scared of those.

856
00:52:24,745 --> 00:52:25,975
Like, that's what we want.

857
00:52:25,985 --> 00:52:29,685
We want their emotions to boil
up so they can identify them.

858
00:52:30,755 --> 00:52:31,915
know what to do with them.

859
00:52:32,105 --> 00:52:35,465
And if they can't do anything
themselves, who to ask for help.

860
00:52:35,655 --> 00:52:40,165
So yeah, there's a lot, there's
lots of information that we

861
00:52:40,195 --> 00:52:42,155
get from the social reports.

862
00:52:42,265 --> 00:52:48,945
It's really important to pick them apart
sometimes because I mean, you could look

863
00:52:48,945 --> 00:52:54,065
at that, Oh, they're anxious, but no, once
you pick it apart and then you see you

864
00:52:54,065 --> 00:52:58,605
level it out with their increased ability
to know where to get help, you're like,

865
00:52:58,605 --> 00:53:00,385
Oh, okay, we're meeting the outcomes here.

866
00:53:00,715 --> 00:53:01,245
So Yeah,

867
00:53:02,465 --> 00:53:05,735
Catherine: that's great that you're, you
know, sort of getting, getting children

868
00:53:05,735 --> 00:53:10,805
at that age where they really need, it's
so good that they're learning to their,

869
00:53:10,865 --> 00:53:17,135
listening to their physical responses and
then becoming aware of them and then sort

870
00:53:17,135 --> 00:53:20,735
of voicing what they are and the fact
that you're giving them that opportunity.

871
00:53:20,735 --> 00:53:26,015
And I love the fact that your
intake person is having a call with,

872
00:53:26,045 --> 00:53:29,765
with one of the parent parents or
carers before the kids come in.

873
00:53:29,885 --> 00:53:31,385
Like that might be.

874
00:53:32,090 --> 00:53:34,410
The only time that someone's
actually had an hour long

875
00:53:34,690 --> 00:53:35,730
conversation with that person.

876
00:53:36,650 --> 00:53:37,970
Would that be correct in saying?

877
00:53:38,780 --> 00:53:39,980
I would think that's

878
00:53:39,980 --> 00:53:40,620
Kristy: correct.

879
00:53:40,750 --> 00:53:49,860
And they, I don't want to generalize,
but parents love the outlet because Maybe

880
00:53:49,860 --> 00:53:54,520
they don't have someone they can just tell
all of the horrible stuff to that doesn't

881
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:56,980
feel uncomfortable like our intake person.

882
00:53:57,650 --> 00:54:05,590
Um, she would hear like story after story
after week after week, but just having

883
00:54:05,590 --> 00:54:07,820
that one person to listen who gets it.

884
00:54:08,225 --> 00:54:12,335
Doesn't judge, hasn't got any
emotional attachment to the outcome.

885
00:54:12,685 --> 00:54:15,895
Like it really is a beautiful
safe space for them to share.

886
00:54:17,065 --> 00:54:20,125
And also they love to give all
the information because they

887
00:54:20,325 --> 00:54:22,055
want the best for their child.

888
00:54:22,305 --> 00:54:27,165
So the opportunity to be able to share
every detail about their child and where

889
00:54:27,165 --> 00:54:29,039
they're at and how they need support.

890
00:54:30,010 --> 00:54:32,240
It's really, really beneficial for them.

891
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:38,700
Catherine: And just that healing that must
be, um, be able to happen because of that.

892
00:54:39,210 --> 00:54:41,700
Feeling that this is the one
way in which I can help my

893
00:54:41,700 --> 00:54:44,390
child is by sharing all of this.

894
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:50,270
You know, for me, if I'm thinking
about how I would feel, I would feel

895
00:54:50,420 --> 00:54:54,750
like at least I'm, I'm helping in that
way to share all of that information.

896
00:54:54,750 --> 00:54:55,086
Yeah.

897
00:54:55,086 --> 00:54:55,422
Kristy: Yeah.

898
00:54:55,422 --> 00:54:55,758
Yeah.

899
00:54:55,758 --> 00:54:56,094
It's

900
00:54:56,094 --> 00:54:58,250
Catherine: a, it's a really amazing.

901
00:54:58,615 --> 00:55:02,655
Kristy: As a parent who handing over
the responsibility, you know, when you

902
00:55:02,665 --> 00:55:06,455
send your child to school and you want
to feel confident, the school teacher is

903
00:55:06,455 --> 00:55:12,275
going to look after them and give them
the best education, it's the same thing.

904
00:55:12,695 --> 00:55:14,255
You want, like, we've just.

905
00:55:14,540 --> 00:55:18,120
sent our six year old to school this
year, and we were so pleased to be

906
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:22,540
able to give them all the information,
all these quirks, all these, all the

907
00:55:22,540 --> 00:55:24,180
things that he's really great at.

908
00:55:24,340 --> 00:55:28,540
And we felt really supported by being
able to give all the information.

909
00:55:28,550 --> 00:55:29,344
And so.

910
00:55:29,775 --> 00:55:31,525
We've had that experience recently.

911
00:55:31,525 --> 00:55:37,425
So knowing that our parents, cause
then they're also not responsible as

912
00:55:37,425 --> 00:55:41,265
a parent, we're not a hundred percent
responsible for our kids either.

913
00:55:41,315 --> 00:55:44,025
You know, we've got to make sure
they're okay and look after them.

914
00:55:44,105 --> 00:55:50,145
But when it comes to their emotional
ability to heal and go through this

915
00:55:50,165 --> 00:55:55,965
process, it must feel such a relief to
be able to say, okay, can you take care

916
00:55:55,965 --> 00:55:59,305
of that part for me and just tell me
what I have to do at the end, which is.

917
00:56:00,245 --> 00:56:04,515
What we do, we provide the parents
an opportunity to come to workshops

918
00:56:04,525 --> 00:56:06,345
pre, like during the camp.

919
00:56:06,395 --> 00:56:09,395
So they come, once they drop
their kids off, we sort of

920
00:56:09,495 --> 00:56:10,995
usher them into their own room.

921
00:56:11,635 --> 00:56:13,165
So they have a bit of downtime.

922
00:56:13,765 --> 00:56:16,685
Because often they're upset about
leaving their kids sometimes too,

923
00:56:16,685 --> 00:56:18,595
and there's a safe space for them.

924
00:56:19,515 --> 00:56:23,205
And then when they come back on the
Sunday, they, we teach them all of

925
00:56:23,205 --> 00:56:25,605
the tools that we've taught the kids.

926
00:56:26,305 --> 00:56:31,675
So then when they go home, they've got
this combined knowledge and they can sort

927
00:56:31,675 --> 00:56:36,685
of thrive once they get back into their
environment and they've got all the tools

928
00:56:36,755 --> 00:56:41,655
to then the parent can say, Oh, have
you measured where, what number are you?

929
00:56:41,705 --> 00:56:44,055
And the kid can identify where they're at.

930
00:56:44,075 --> 00:56:45,695
So they've got a shared language.

931
00:56:46,610 --> 00:56:49,050
To then move through hard things.

932
00:56:50,550 --> 00:56:51,670
Catherine: That is really beautiful.

933
00:56:51,670 --> 00:56:56,439
It's such a, a holistic approach
that you've taken to, you know,

934
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:58,340
helping families deal with grief.

935
00:56:58,340 --> 00:57:02,640
It's, it's really beautiful to hear
the stories and, and the things

936
00:57:02,650 --> 00:57:04,550
that you, you take families through.

937
00:57:05,380 --> 00:57:10,250
How can someone, how do people get
referred to you for a camp or, you know,

938
00:57:10,260 --> 00:57:11,880
starting off with the virtual sessions?

939
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:12,840
How does that happen?

940
00:57:16,005 --> 00:57:20,925
Kristy: It's, it's really easy to
come, so it's literally a link on the

941
00:57:20,925 --> 00:57:27,385
website, any parent or social worker
or school teacher can fill out, so if

942
00:57:27,385 --> 00:57:31,815
you want to refer someone, there's a
portal for that, and if you are a parent

943
00:57:31,985 --> 00:57:34,095
seeking advice, you can fill out that.

944
00:57:34,445 --> 00:57:39,735
And Lauren, who's our intake, she will be
back in touch with you within 72 hours.

945
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:43,620
It's usually a lot quicker, but we
just, you know, buffer it out in

946
00:57:43,620 --> 00:57:49,180
case, but she gets in contact with
anyone who fills out a form and they

947
00:57:49,180 --> 00:57:53,300
actually have the option to book a call
directly with Lauren straight away.

948
00:57:53,370 --> 00:57:56,930
So that's out of the way,
or they can do it by email.

949
00:57:56,930 --> 00:58:00,870
So we even ask them what's the
best way they want to communicate.

950
00:58:00,930 --> 00:58:01,970
Some people want text.

951
00:58:02,950 --> 00:58:05,610
Some people don't want to talk
cause they're not up for it.

952
00:58:06,230 --> 00:58:10,690
But yeah, the referral system is really
simple and then Lauren will sort of

953
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:16,550
map out the journey for the parent to
say, okay, well, here's where you're

954
00:58:16,550 --> 00:58:20,730
at, this is what we've got coming up
and, and it's kind of that simple.

955
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:22,220
The parent does need to fill out.

956
00:58:22,650 --> 00:58:28,290
a detailed application form so
that we have all the information.

957
00:58:29,050 --> 00:58:31,560
But beyond that it's quite, quite simple.

958
00:58:33,140 --> 00:58:38,460
Catherine: And you, you make it your, your
task to, to sort of say no matter where

959
00:58:38,460 --> 00:58:43,470
they live in Australia, from city to the
most isolated rural town, you will, you

960
00:58:43,470 --> 00:58:45,290
will make the camp available to them.

961
00:58:47,065 --> 00:58:47,825
Kristy: Absolutely.

962
00:58:47,955 --> 00:58:48,245
Yeah.

963
00:58:48,855 --> 00:58:50,515
That's a pretty mighty task.

964
00:58:52,015 --> 00:58:54,455
Any child can access the online program.

965
00:58:54,455 --> 00:58:59,395
We've had children who have been
quite remote in, who are out of

966
00:58:59,395 --> 00:59:07,055
home care as well, where the carer
might set up online for them.

967
00:59:07,065 --> 00:59:11,695
We've even had schools reach out, where
they've then sent home a laptop with the

968
00:59:11,695 --> 00:59:14,005
child so they could access us online.

969
00:59:14,005 --> 00:59:20,875
So the online is Is honestly a game
changer because it does mean that anyone

970
00:59:20,875 --> 00:59:25,515
nationally can get into one of our
programs within a three month period.

971
00:59:26,715 --> 00:59:27,425
James: Thanks to COVID.

972
00:59:28,105 --> 00:59:28,515
Catherine: Yeah.

973
00:59:29,485 --> 00:59:30,875
Yeah, that's amazing.

974
00:59:31,305 --> 00:59:35,065
And tell me, how can someone support
the amazing work that you're doing?

975
00:59:37,305 --> 00:59:38,775
James: Yeah, there's, there's many ways.

976
00:59:39,045 --> 00:59:41,065
Uh, you know, we're always.

977
00:59:42,415 --> 00:59:45,875
I guess taking the analogy of we give
something and we give something first

978
00:59:45,875 --> 00:59:49,745
and then ask, uh, I would love to
offer my services to come and speak

979
00:59:49,745 --> 00:59:52,145
to your organization or Christy,
come and speak to the organization

980
00:59:52,155 --> 00:59:56,235
that can be done virtually or, uh,
in person, come speak to the team.

981
00:59:56,795 --> 00:59:59,345
I would encourage anyone to come
along and try out to be a mentor.

982
01:00:00,065 --> 01:00:03,005
And then, if that doesn't
change your life, then, you

983
01:00:03,005 --> 01:00:05,005
know, I don't know what will.

984
01:00:05,165 --> 01:00:08,125
But there's, you know, we have events
throughout the year, golf day, we've

985
01:00:08,125 --> 01:00:09,775
got spin a thon, we've got a magic ride.

986
01:00:10,385 --> 01:00:13,595
Usually we have a gala event, but
we're, we're parking up for this year.

987
01:00:13,805 --> 01:00:17,185
But we are looking for, the whole
mission here is sustainability.

988
01:00:17,255 --> 01:00:21,505
So, you know, whether it's a corporate
that has, had, have been impacted

989
01:00:21,505 --> 01:00:26,285
by grief or, or feel the magic, we
would love to just make it a win win.

990
01:00:27,045 --> 01:00:29,534
We need corporate dollars, we
need philanthropic dollars.

991
01:00:30,145 --> 01:00:33,825
And we just needed that consistency to
create sustainability because what we do

992
01:00:33,825 --> 01:00:38,215
does, does change lives and you can see
firsthand where your dollars are going.

993
01:00:38,245 --> 01:00:41,235
So that's how, that's how we
can, you can support and all the

994
01:00:41,235 --> 01:00:42,405
information is on our website.

995
01:00:44,665 --> 01:00:45,395
Catherine: Fantastic.

996
01:00:45,905 --> 01:00:52,175
And tell me, given your personal
experience and, uh, from the scenarios

997
01:00:52,255 --> 01:00:56,675
that you've been talking about,
how can people just be good allies?

998
01:00:56,725 --> 01:00:57,715
How can they?

999
01:00:58,220 --> 01:01:02,240
Just, you know, have the conversation
so people aren't feeling like they're

1000
01:01:02,550 --> 01:01:04,800
isolated or they're being ostracized.

1001
01:01:05,440 --> 01:01:06,660
Tell me, talk me through that.

1002
01:01:07,300 --> 01:01:11,070
James: Yeah, I'll just say it from
a male's perspective, for the male

1003
01:01:11,070 --> 01:01:14,620
listeners, and I'll let Christy
elaborate far deeper than I can.

1004
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:21,370
We make it harder than what it needs
to be, so simply by being there.

1005
01:01:21,410 --> 01:01:25,910
So from a mate's, from a mate's point
of view, if I had a mate who had

1006
01:01:25,910 --> 01:01:29,400
lost his child, I wouldn't overdo it.

1007
01:01:29,430 --> 01:01:30,790
I wouldn't need to overdo it.

1008
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:33,050
He just needs to know I'm there.

1009
01:01:33,140 --> 01:01:37,140
So whether I'm just in the vicinity
of him or I'm both sides taking me up.

1010
01:01:37,785 --> 01:01:40,415
Just let him be and then nine
times out of ten, they will

1011
01:01:41,025 --> 01:01:42,815
regurgitate what they're feeling.

1012
01:01:42,885 --> 01:01:44,365
You don't have to have the answers.

1013
01:01:44,365 --> 01:01:49,215
You don't have to, you know,
you don't have to go away above

1014
01:01:49,215 --> 01:01:50,825
and beyond to make an impact.

1015
01:01:50,845 --> 01:01:55,265
Just them knowing that you're
there is, is, is more than enough

1016
01:01:55,865 --> 01:01:56,985
and anything else is a bonus.

1017
01:01:56,985 --> 01:02:01,655
You know, so, you know, even if it's
just a side hug, you know, around the

1018
01:02:01,865 --> 01:02:04,885
shoulders to let them know you're there
and that, that's, that's all it is.

1019
01:02:04,885 --> 01:02:08,815
It just, you just need to know
that someone's got your back and.

1020
01:02:09,570 --> 01:02:12,950
That you can rely on someone other than
your loved ones who are also grieving.

1021
01:02:13,020 --> 01:02:14,300
So, just be present.

1022
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:15,910
That's, that's plain and simple.

1023
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:21,940
Kristy: Yeah, from my point of
view, it's a bit more practical in

1024
01:02:21,940 --> 01:02:25,460
that, you know, saying something
is better than saying nothing.

1025
01:02:25,790 --> 01:02:29,310
Getting it wrong is better than
not getting, getting it right.

1026
01:02:29,350 --> 01:02:31,230
So, I didn't say that right.

1027
01:02:31,700 --> 01:02:37,660
Getting it wrong is better than not
trying because Yeah, just from all

1028
01:02:37,660 --> 01:02:40,860
the interactions I've had, a lot
of people expressed that, you know,

1029
01:02:41,260 --> 01:02:45,650
people they thought they were really
close with fall off the wagon, and

1030
01:02:45,650 --> 01:02:49,750
then people they had no idea just
come out of the woodworks for support.

1031
01:02:49,790 --> 01:02:54,150
And the way they come out of the
woodwork is by offering support.

1032
01:02:54,210 --> 01:03:00,835
Now, I think being really practical about
saying, Saying to a grieving person,

1033
01:03:00,835 --> 01:03:05,115
how can I help you, you're probably
going to get a response like, I don't

1034
01:03:05,155 --> 01:03:10,945
know, because often their brain is too,
too full to really even understand.

1035
01:03:11,455 --> 01:03:16,275
So really thinking about you and your
own family and what you do have to offer.

1036
01:03:17,070 --> 01:03:18,770
Is probably the best thing.

1037
01:03:18,790 --> 01:03:23,200
So instead of saying, how can I help
you saying, Hey, I could do X, Y,

1038
01:03:23,500 --> 01:03:25,530
Z for you and just work that in.

1039
01:03:25,530 --> 01:03:33,650
So I know if it's a single mom or dad,
a single parent, often school pickups

1040
01:03:33,890 --> 01:03:35,590
or drop offs could be really supportive.

1041
01:03:36,110 --> 01:03:40,340
Uh, the old cliche of dropping
off a meal, honestly, is.

1042
01:03:41,595 --> 01:03:43,365
It's a really beautiful thing.

1043
01:03:43,385 --> 01:03:48,574
And I'm not just talking about in the
first few weeks or six weeks, like

1044
01:03:48,575 --> 01:03:50,525
support really needs to extend out.

1045
01:03:50,525 --> 01:03:54,555
Like maybe if you dropped a meal
once a month for a year because they

1046
01:03:54,585 --> 01:03:59,755
just don't have capacity to think
about food and being healthy and all

1047
01:03:59,755 --> 01:04:01,455
those things do make a difference.

1048
01:04:01,485 --> 01:04:05,215
So just thinking about what capacity as
a person you do have to offer, it might

1049
01:04:05,215 --> 01:04:07,295
be a skill set that you have, like.

1050
01:04:07,850 --> 01:04:16,170
Offering to emcee at the wake, or
baking food, or if you're a lawyer,

1051
01:04:16,190 --> 01:04:18,270
helping get affairs in order.

1052
01:04:18,540 --> 01:04:21,010
It's just the smallest of things.

1053
01:04:21,650 --> 01:04:26,430
Whatever you have to offer, offering
that specifically, rather than

1054
01:04:26,430 --> 01:04:27,810
saying, what can I do to help?

1055
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:33,410
And then aside from that, just, yeah,
just saying I'm here if you need me.

1056
01:04:35,380 --> 01:04:37,310
Sometimes they just want
someone to cry with.

1057
01:04:39,015 --> 01:04:43,305
Talk to who's not going to try
and fix them or give them advice.

1058
01:04:47,265 --> 01:04:51,205
Catherine: I can't thank you
both enough for your time today.

1059
01:04:51,665 --> 01:04:56,445
The insight that you have provided into
your program and the amazing work you

1060
01:04:56,445 --> 01:05:02,375
do is fantastic, but also just your
personal stories and how the amount of

1061
01:05:02,375 --> 01:05:03,935
growth that you've both gone through.

1062
01:05:04,450 --> 01:05:09,130
Yourselves during this whole process
is really insightful, both for me as

1063
01:05:09,130 --> 01:05:15,390
someone who's starting out in this
industry, uh, and also just as a, as

1064
01:05:15,390 --> 01:05:19,670
a parent and a mother, just to hear
your stories has been really lovely.

1065
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:21,450
So I can't thank you enough.

1066
01:05:21,500 --> 01:05:24,210
Is there anything else that you
feel like you'd like to share?

1067
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:26,850
James: Yeah, just quickly.

1068
01:05:26,850 --> 01:05:31,350
Christy touched on don't just
be there for a few months.

1069
01:05:31,810 --> 01:05:32,420
I think.

1070
01:05:33,860 --> 01:05:41,450
In terms of children, so when someone
dies, it's almost a novelty to them

1071
01:05:41,450 --> 01:05:46,510
because everyone's around, family,
friends, interstate, overseas, they come

1072
01:05:46,550 --> 01:05:49,550
to the funeral, they come to the wake,
they're there for the, for the family.

1073
01:05:50,190 --> 01:05:52,960
And I don't know if this is research
backed or not, but what we, what we

1074
01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:57,810
find with, with families is that grief
really kicks a child in the pants.

1075
01:05:58,075 --> 01:06:01,745
Six months and after because
everyone literally has got on with

1076
01:06:01,775 --> 01:06:06,655
their life as you do and that's
when the child says, well, I'm not

1077
01:06:06,695 --> 01:06:07,915
the center of attention anymore.

1078
01:06:07,935 --> 01:06:12,255
No one's here, you know, family, relatives
have gone back to the home country or

1079
01:06:12,255 --> 01:06:15,185
hometown and it's just me and my family.

1080
01:06:15,185 --> 01:06:18,465
And as Christy said, everyone experienced
living in a household who were grieving.

1081
01:06:18,465 --> 01:06:22,830
It's You know, as a child, you kind
of do make that about yourself.

1082
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:28,660
So if you're going to be a good
friend or a good relative, be there

1083
01:06:28,660 --> 01:06:30,390
for more, for post the six months.

1084
01:06:30,390 --> 01:06:36,590
Like that's six months is such a
blur and especially for the, for

1085
01:06:36,590 --> 01:06:39,800
the parents, but that first six
months is such a, such a blur.

1086
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:42,950
If you can make sure you're there post
the six months and beyond, that's,

1087
01:06:42,970 --> 01:06:45,690
that's when you're going to have real
impact, especially on the children.

1088
01:06:47,700 --> 01:06:51,480
That's in essence, that's why we, I
don't know if we still do this, but

1089
01:06:52,185 --> 01:06:56,975
That's why we don't allow kids to
come to our program straight after a

1090
01:06:56,975 --> 01:06:58,385
death, because it's just too fresh.

1091
01:06:58,685 --> 01:07:02,045
We usually wait a minimum, what,
four to six months, because that's

1092
01:07:02,045 --> 01:07:03,855
when grief is really set in.

1093
01:07:04,875 --> 01:07:06,685
The harsh reality is, is their reality.

1094
01:07:07,865 --> 01:07:09,575
Kristy: Prior to that,
they're just in shock.

1095
01:07:10,015 --> 01:07:13,285
So anything you're trying to
Feed into their little brains.

1096
01:07:13,285 --> 01:07:16,105
It's just, it's going to go
one in, in one ear and out the

1097
01:07:16,105 --> 01:07:18,665
other, so yeah, in that space.

1098
01:07:19,005 --> 01:07:20,195
Yeah, you're right James.

1099
01:07:22,175 --> 01:07:24,835
The greatest impact is
going to be the year later.

1100
01:07:25,020 --> 01:07:27,239
And I

1101
01:07:29,100 --> 01:07:33,460
Catherine: think that's really important
for people to hear because, yeah, they

1102
01:07:33,490 --> 01:07:37,480
just assumed that it's immediately
after that they need to be there to

1103
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:42,850
support the families, but thank you
for sharing that it really is not,

1104
01:07:43,170 --> 01:07:47,720
not the time where people can really,
cause as you said, they are in shock.

1105
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:51,530
So so much for letting us know
that it's that period after

1106
01:07:52,210 --> 01:07:53,580
that's where it really hits hard.

1107
01:07:54,280 --> 01:07:54,660
Yeah.

1108
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:55,730
Pleasure.

1109
01:07:55,730 --> 01:07:55,869
Take care.

1110
01:07:57,210 --> 01:08:00,380
Well, thank you so much
again, Kristy and James.

1111
01:08:00,380 --> 01:08:01,260
I can't thank you enough.

1112
01:08:01,260 --> 01:08:02,050
It's been wonderful.

1113
01:08:02,700 --> 01:08:03,510
Thanks very much.

1114
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Kristy: Thank you.

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Catherine: We hope you enjoyed today's
episode of Don't Be Caught Dead,

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brought to you by Critical Info.

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If you liked the episode, learnt something
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heard, We'd love for you to let us know.

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Send us an email, even tell
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helps other people to find the show.

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