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Grace: Both Miriam and I had
powers of attorney, but I chose

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not to exercise those powers.

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That is to check my mother's
financial affairs because she

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had asked me specifically not to.

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So after mum died, I spoke
with her solicitor and.

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He got hold of the bank statements
for me for the previous five years.

7
00:00:24,370 --> 00:00                        ... Read More
                    

                

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Grace: Both Miriam and I had
powers of attorney, but I chose

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00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:06,700
not to exercise those powers.

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00:00:07,340 --> 00:00:12,080
That is to check my mother's
financial affairs because she

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had asked me specifically not to.

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00:00:14,419 --> 00:00:19,240
So after mum died, I spoke
with her solicitor and.

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He got hold of the bank statements
for me for the previous five years.

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I had expected perhaps to
see, I don't know, ten, twenty

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thousand dollars gone missing.

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It was over three hundred and fifty
thousand dollars just in the five years.

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What

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Catherine Ashton: advice or encouragement
would you like to share with others

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based on what you've been through?

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Grace: If you find yourself in a similar
situation, you should be aware that

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Catherine Ashton: Welcome
to Don't Be Caught Dead.

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00:00:50,275 --> 00:00:55,235
A podcast encouraging open conversations
about dying and the death of a loved one.

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I'm your host, Katherine Ashton, founder
of Critical Info, and I'm helping to

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00:01:00,744 --> 00:01:03,245
bring your stories of death back to life.

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00:01:03,815 --> 00:01:07,945
Because while you may not be ready
to die, At least you can be prepared.

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Don't Be Caught Dead acknowledges
the lands of the Kulin Nations

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and recognises their connection
to land, sea and community.

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We pay our respects to their
Elders, past, present and emerging.

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and extend that respect to all
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander

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and First Nation peoples around the

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globe.

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Catherine Ashton: Grace is a
freelance creative professional

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who lives in rural Victoria.

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While her parents were still
alive, they lived in a regional

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city in New South Wales.

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Her sister Miriam lives in the same city.

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After Grace's father, Henry, died at 86
in 2010, her mother Patricia's physical

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and mental health gradually deteriorated.

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In 2015, she had a fall at home.

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Hospitalization followed, then
admission to a nursing home.

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After Patricia died at the end of 2020,
Grace discovered that Miriam had spent

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Withdrawn and transferred to herself and
her son hundreds of thousands of dollars

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from Patricia's bank account during her
time while she was in the nursing home.

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Grace had long suspected some
degree of misappropriation, but

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this was way beyond her imagining.

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Believing it would be straightforward to
bring Miriam to justice, Grace hired a

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solicitor based in Patricia's home city,
one recommended by a solicitor friend in

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common, and commenced legal proceedings.

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The outcome was devastating and
the proceedings far more protracted

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and expensive than Grace's original
solicitor had led her to expect.

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She eventually hired another.

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It's obvious to her now that had
she let the theft rest, she'd

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be at least 60, 000 better off.

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It's also obvious to her that
the frameworks, legalities and

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practices around estate law and the
powers of attorney are not all what

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people commonly assume them to be.

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Neither fairness nor justice are givens.

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Hers is a cautionary tale of great
import for anyone who suspects

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a relative of elder financial
abuse or the intent to commit it.

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This is her story.

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Thank you for joining

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Grace: us, Grace.

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Thank you for having me, Catherine.

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Now, Grace, can

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Catherine Ashton: you please
briefly summarise the events that

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occurred after your mother died?

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Grace: Okay, briefly's a
stretch, but I'll do my best.

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Okay, so, uh, both Miriam
and I had powers of attorney.

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Uh, But I chose not to exercise
those powers, that is to check my

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mother's financial affairs because
she had asked me specifically not to.

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Merriam had a history of what I and my
mother found to be abusive behaviour.

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Because I lived a long way from my
mother and Miriam lived close by, mum

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was basically, you know, ruled by her
whims and, uh, and was kind of forced

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to sublimate herself in many ways.

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She actually told me she was frightened
of Miriam many times and begged me, and

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when I say begged, I mean that quite
literally, begged me not to do anything

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whatsoever that would make Miriam.

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could make Miriam angry.

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Uh, so, foolishly, I didn't, while
mum was in the nursing home, I didn't

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look into her financial affairs, I
just kept right out of everything.

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I, I obeyed her wishes and I know now
that I shouldn't have, I basically

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should have lied to her, looked into
her bank accounts, phoned Miriam and

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said, I can see what you're doing.

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If you, if you continue with this, I
will, I'll get a solicitor involved

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and I will see you prosecuted
to the fullest possible extent.

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But foolishly, as I say, I did nothing.

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So after mum died, I spoke with
her solicitor, who was a family

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friend of many years standing,
who was very, very supportive.

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He got hold of the bank statements for
me for the previous five years, and I had

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expected perhaps to see, I don't know,
ten, twenty thousand dollars gone missing?

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Uh, it was over three hundred and fifty
thousand dollars, just in the five years.

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that mum was in the nursing home.

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However, the powers of attorney began
on in 2011 and I'm, I subsequently got

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more bank records and it looked to me
like there was much misappropriation

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well before mum went into a nursing home.

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So a friend who's a solicitor said,
look, I've got a friend who's in that

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city and a solicitor and she's great
and I think you should hire her.

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So I did.

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That turned out to be a
very expensive exercise.

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Okay, so what, what the solicitor
told me when I explained everything

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to her, I became my own forensic
accountant as a result of this.

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I put together a spreadsheet that I
still regard as a work of art, basically,

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you know, a cover sheet with everything
summarized neatly and color coded across

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various categories of expenditure.

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And a sheet for every year of the
misappropriations and shared this

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with the solicitor and the advice I
received from that solicitor, or I

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should say the solicitor in her office
whom she appointed to my case was okay.

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Yes, clear case of misappropriation.

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You got a great chance of
getting a lot of this money back.

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Uh.

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We reckon it'll cost you, even if it
goes to court, we're looking at an

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absolute maximum of around 50, 000,
give or take, and, you know, that

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should all happen within six months.

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Long story short, I found them utterly
inept, extremely slow in communicating,

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and I'd always, when I, whenever I raised
this, it would be, you know, the response

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would be along the lines of, Oh, look,
you know, so and so only works part time.

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Um, just, so that's why I've not
received anything from you for six weeks.

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00:07:51,605 --> 00:07:53,405
It just went on and on and on and on.

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And invoices kept coming.

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And one of those invoices,
for example, was for 6, 000

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00:08:00,620 --> 00:08:02,560
and was sent in error to me.

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Had I paid it, I'm sure I'd
never have seen that money back.

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I mean, you know, this
is, this was piling.

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And again, I don't use this word lightly.

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It was piling trauma upon trauma.

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I was in such a discombobulated state.

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It was so extremely distressing to deal
with this at a point where I'd also lost

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my job and was feeling very betrayed, you
know, by the entire family, basically.

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I think I also discovered after mum died
that, you know, uh, promises she'd made

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00:08:37,635 --> 00:08:46,025
to me around money and compensation for
money that she and my father had given to

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Miriam when she first married many decades
ago were just Hot air, you know, they,

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00:08:52,185 --> 00:08:57,215
they weren't, uh, you know, compensation
because they, they helped her when she

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got divorced, told me when I got divorced
that they, you know, they're unable

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00:09:01,454 --> 00:09:04,984
to do the same, that they'd compensate
me in their wills, didn't happen.

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So I found myself.

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00:09:08,130 --> 00:09:14,170
staggered and shockingly depressed at,
you know, everything that was going on

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and found myself with a dud solicitor on
top of that, who became quite adversarial

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00:09:20,969 --> 00:09:25,420
when I indicated that I wasn't happy,
um, with the service I was getting.

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00:09:26,615 --> 00:09:31,205
Uh, anyway, I had my spreadsheets
outlining everything that had happened.

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I had the solicitor telling me,
okay, we've got, you know, around

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00:09:34,265 --> 00:09:37,215
six months worth of, of waiting here.

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00:09:37,965 --> 00:09:44,314
And yep, here's this costing of,
you know, a maximum of 50, 000.

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When that, and so much research
ensued mainly on my part, for example.

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I was also very suspicious because when
I visited my mum, when she first went

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into hospital after falling at home, uh,
she was so, she was obscenely emaciated.

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00:10:05,370 --> 00:10:09,220
And I discovered later through her
medical records that she weighed 30

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00:10:10,419 --> 00:10:17,440
kilos and was diagnosed with extreme
malnutrition when she went into hospital.

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And to be honest, I, you know,
this is a, this is quite a shocking

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00:10:24,354 --> 00:10:32,924
allegation, but in my view, in my very
firm opinion, Miriam was basically

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00:10:32,925 --> 00:10:35,164
letting my mum starve to death.

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And my knowledge of my sister's frame
of mind leads me to believe that

145
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she was doing this deliberately.

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Which was in profound contrast to her
assertions throughout the course of this

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00:10:52,700 --> 00:10:57,870
legal stash that she had been looking
after mum, you know, with the greatest

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00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:03,330
care and concern and feeding her and
cooking for her and making sure her house

149
00:11:03,330 --> 00:11:09,340
was clean and all, all of these claims
to, you know, assiduous care when clearly

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00:11:09,849 --> 00:11:12,150
mum was literally starving to death.

151
00:11:12,990 --> 00:11:16,500
Furthermore, I was the one who
claimed her house after she'd

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00:11:16,500 --> 00:11:17,720
moved into the nursing home.

153
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She had a small dog, um, at the time and
there was dog faeces and evidence of urine

154
00:11:25,319 --> 00:11:31,899
throughout the entire house, um, which I
just found utterly disgusting, obviously.

155
00:11:32,610 --> 00:11:36,710
You know, there were, there was every
indication, not only of misappropriation,

156
00:11:36,860 --> 00:11:42,680
but also of I guess you could
say passive, for want of a better

157
00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:44,840
word, physical and emotional abuse.

158
00:11:45,830 --> 00:11:48,010
And this, this history goes back years.

159
00:11:48,050 --> 00:11:51,440
Miriam was quite violent
on occasion towards mum.

160
00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:55,000
She was, she was the, you know, the one
who crawled out of the bedroom window

161
00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:56,399
in the middle of the night to, you know.

162
00:11:57,740 --> 00:12:03,020
Go exercise her, her freedoms and
while that's, you know, that's fine,

163
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:08,970
when she was confronted with, uh, you
know, the, the wrath of my parents

164
00:12:09,010 --> 00:12:12,829
after doing things like that, I was
the one who would cower in the corner

165
00:12:12,829 --> 00:12:14,669
and go, yeah, okay, I'm grounded.

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I've been a bad person.

167
00:12:16,220 --> 00:12:17,489
I'll take my punishment.

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00:12:17,499 --> 00:12:23,369
Miriam would get extremely abusive,
both verbally and I've seen her.

169
00:12:23,969 --> 00:12:25,569
Punch mum in the back.

170
00:12:25,949 --> 00:12:30,830
Miriam was about 5'10, mum
was barely 5 feet tall, so.

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00:12:31,875 --> 00:12:36,905
There was this history of
aggression and pretty awful stuff

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00:12:36,905 --> 00:12:38,155
happening within the family.

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00:12:39,095 --> 00:12:43,164
That was another reason why I was
suspicious when Miriam and her husband

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00:12:43,195 --> 00:12:48,365
just suddenly, you know, when our parents
were getting very elderly and their health

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00:12:48,365 --> 00:12:51,935
was deteriorating, it just seemed a bit
too much of a coincidence that Miriam

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00:12:52,005 --> 00:12:59,084
suddenly wanted to move to the same
city when she'd spent most of her adult

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00:12:59,095 --> 00:13:01,005
life referring to Dad as a misogynist.

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00:13:01,795 --> 00:13:07,745
racist pig and mum to, you know, and mum
in terms I won't repeat on a podcast.

179
00:13:07,825 --> 00:13:12,535
So, you know, why would somebody who
professes utter loathing of their parents

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00:13:12,545 --> 00:13:16,954
suddenly move to be close to their parents
when their parents are approaching death?

181
00:13:17,485 --> 00:13:18,835
You know, rhetorical question.

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00:13:19,365 --> 00:13:27,105
Anyway, uh, the, you know, there was
much research there, you know, leading

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00:13:27,135 --> 00:13:29,265
up to the preparation of an affidavit.

184
00:13:30,135 --> 00:13:35,314
The crunch came when my original
solicitor prepared an affidavit that

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00:13:35,354 --> 00:13:42,495
looked to me like it was written by At
best, a mediocre first year law student.

186
00:13:42,575 --> 00:13:46,715
It was so badly structured,
it was so badly articulated.

187
00:13:47,335 --> 00:13:51,074
Catherine Ashton: And if you can just
explain, uh, what is an affidavit?

188
00:13:51,384 --> 00:13:51,694
Oh,

189
00:13:51,925 --> 00:13:52,255
Grace: sorry.

190
00:13:52,285 --> 00:13:55,144
It's basically an accusatory document.

191
00:13:55,194 --> 00:14:02,345
It's the document that you as, I guess,
a plaintiff have drafted to say, Okay.

192
00:14:02,685 --> 00:14:07,245
Here's what I accuse you,
the defendant, of doing.

193
00:14:07,975 --> 00:14:09,325
So it's a sworn statement.

194
00:14:09,415 --> 00:14:13,444
It's a sworn statement that your
solicitor presents to the other

195
00:14:13,444 --> 00:14:18,435
side's solicitor and they of course
have the opportunity to respond.

196
00:14:18,984 --> 00:14:28,974
Once the affidavit is presented to
your opponent, they can respond and

197
00:14:28,984 --> 00:14:31,364
then your choices are let things go.

198
00:14:32,485 --> 00:14:35,765
Cut the cord, we're done here
because you've decided it's not

199
00:14:35,765 --> 00:14:37,055
worth the trouble and expense.

200
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:43,740
Or they might, you also, when you present
an affidavit, when your solicitor sends

201
00:14:43,740 --> 00:14:50,450
an affidavit to the other party, they
usually also include a demand for, in a

202
00:14:50,450 --> 00:14:54,040
case like this where we're talking about
misappropriated money that represents

203
00:14:54,090 --> 00:14:57,179
part of the other person's entitlement.

204
00:14:57,730 --> 00:14:59,540
to the deceased person's estate.

205
00:14:59,540 --> 00:15:02,709
So we're both equal
beneficiaries in mum's will.

206
00:15:03,230 --> 00:15:09,339
So in effect, she had stolen, in my
view, a huge chunk of my inheritance.

207
00:15:10,089 --> 00:15:11,219
So we And

208
00:15:11,219 --> 00:15:14,510
Catherine Ashton: just before,
so, so that was what was

209
00:15:14,510 --> 00:15:16,170
written in the affidavit at that

210
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:16,610
Grace: point?

211
00:15:16,669 --> 00:15:21,860
The affidavit, basically, the, the
spreadsheet I prepared, which detailed

212
00:15:21,910 --> 00:15:31,280
every single instance of withdrawal,
transfer, or Every, every single bit

213
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:36,160
of money that I found to have been
questionably taken from my mother's

214
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,100
account was in that spreadsheet.

215
00:15:38,100 --> 00:15:43,780
The affidavit relied on the
spreadsheet for a, as the evidence

216
00:15:44,369 --> 00:15:49,819
and the bank statements, of course,
as evidence of misappropriation.

217
00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:57,330
So the affidavit, if you like, summarized
the, the, the larger transactions.

218
00:15:57,689 --> 00:16:02,810
And it summarized the smaller
transactions and went into great

219
00:16:02,810 --> 00:16:04,780
detail about the larger transactions.

220
00:16:04,780 --> 00:16:08,949
We're talking about, you know, 20,
000 transferred to Miriam's account.

221
00:16:09,730 --> 00:16:10,700
No apparent reason.

222
00:16:11,270 --> 00:16:16,810
We're talking about over 100, 000 spent
on renovations, this sort of thing.

223
00:16:16,820 --> 00:16:21,329
Anyway, the affidavit summarizes what
you're accusing the other person of.

224
00:16:22,109 --> 00:16:27,520
And you could say that the spreadsheet
I did was supporting evidence.

225
00:16:28,470 --> 00:16:28,709
I mean, that's.

226
00:16:29,295 --> 00:16:29,665
What were

227
00:16:29,665 --> 00:16:34,065
Catherine Ashton: you led to believe
by your initial solicitor that

228
00:16:34,075 --> 00:16:38,224
the outcome would be of presenting
that evidence in the affidavit?

229
00:16:38,935 --> 00:16:42,945
Grace: My solicitor didn't lead me
to expect any particular outcome.

230
00:16:43,085 --> 00:16:46,104
They, because of course, they're,
you know, for obvious reasons,

231
00:16:46,105 --> 00:16:47,804
they're wary of doing that.

232
00:16:47,804 --> 00:16:50,344
They certainly can't
guarantee any given outcome.

233
00:16:51,715 --> 00:16:54,505
What they do is simply
advise you along the way.

234
00:16:54,505 --> 00:16:58,785
So, okay, what we can do, okay, here's,
you've gathered all this evidence

235
00:16:58,785 --> 00:17:00,895
and you're making these accusations.

236
00:17:00,895 --> 00:17:02,765
Let's put all of that into an affidavit.

237
00:17:03,064 --> 00:17:05,994
Our first step is to send
her a copy of that affidavit

238
00:17:06,435 --> 00:17:08,854
accompanied by, we make an offer.

239
00:17:08,904 --> 00:17:14,185
Basically, we say, if you, if you
are willing to pay this amount,

240
00:17:15,774 --> 00:17:17,595
We won't take this to court.

241
00:17:18,494 --> 00:17:24,584
So, of course, you're expecting
either a kind of stuff you response

242
00:17:24,694 --> 00:17:27,435
or any decent person would say, okay.

243
00:17:28,025 --> 00:17:30,285
Alrighty, then here, I'll give you this.

244
00:17:30,715 --> 00:17:31,914
Here's my counteroffer.

245
00:17:32,555 --> 00:17:34,515
What will it take to make this go away?

246
00:17:34,685 --> 00:17:36,384
You know, that classic kind of scenario.

247
00:17:37,564 --> 00:17:39,544
The next step after that.

248
00:17:40,379 --> 00:17:44,919
If you, as the accuser, feel that
you're not, you're not satisfied

249
00:17:44,919 --> 00:17:49,399
with the response from your
opponent, you can either, again,

250
00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,950
let it drop, or you can lodge the
affidavit with the Supreme Court.

251
00:17:55,570 --> 00:18:00,570
I didn't know this at the time, and thank
goodness that affidavit wasn't lodged

252
00:18:00,570 --> 00:18:06,205
with the court, because The affidavit
was so badly written, as I mentioned

253
00:18:06,225 --> 00:18:10,305
earlier, and because even after I
corrected it, I mean, they even got things

254
00:18:10,305 --> 00:18:12,245
like they got my parents names wrong.

255
00:18:12,744 --> 00:18:18,285
I mean, got dates wrong,
got fine details wrong.

256
00:18:18,514 --> 00:18:22,874
This is not a document I wanted to see
presented in court as my key piece of

257
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:28,350
Evidence, that wasn't something I wanted
to see presented in court, only to

258
00:18:28,350 --> 00:18:34,379
have Miriam's barrister go at me in the
witness box saying, Oh, says this here,

259
00:18:34,379 --> 00:18:37,539
but I have your, I have your spreadsheet
in front of me and the spreadsheet

260
00:18:37,539 --> 00:18:39,010
says something completely different.

261
00:18:39,469 --> 00:18:45,620
If you sign an affidavit without
checking every tiny detail in it,

262
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,290
you're in big trouble, potentially,
if the case does go to court.

263
00:18:52,615 --> 00:18:56,745
I mean, I should say here, I
dropped my solicitor at that point.

264
00:18:56,754 --> 00:18:58,024
I was so distraught.

265
00:18:58,855 --> 00:19:00,865
You know, I was paying rent all this time.

266
00:19:00,865 --> 00:19:03,064
I couldn't have, I've never been
able to afford to buy my own

267
00:19:03,064 --> 00:19:06,754
house as a single woman and for
a long time, a single parent.

268
00:19:07,775 --> 00:19:14,304
So my inheritance was basically my shot
at buying my own home and I was renting.

269
00:19:14,304 --> 00:19:20,574
So every week that this dragged on and
on and on, I didn't have a job and I

270
00:19:20,575 --> 00:19:22,614
was paying a small fortune in rent.

271
00:19:23,205 --> 00:19:23,575
So.

272
00:19:24,230 --> 00:19:25,230
And can I ask,

273
00:19:25,830 --> 00:19:28,060
Catherine Ashton: what sort of time
frame are we talking now when you

274
00:19:28,060 --> 00:19:33,540
actually went from the initial solicitor
to engaging your next solicitor?

275
00:19:36,270 --> 00:19:39,480
Grace: Ah, it was around
one and a half years.

276
00:19:40,350 --> 00:19:44,010
That's how long I, you know, again,
foolishly, it's only with the benefit

277
00:19:44,010 --> 00:19:48,010
of hindsight that you realise, I
think, what you could have done

278
00:19:48,010 --> 00:19:50,060
differently to better effect.

279
00:19:50,530 --> 00:19:54,120
But when you're caught up in something
like this and you're emotionally

280
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,020
distraught, you're not thinking clearly.

281
00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:02,490
You're trying to, and all of my, my
clear thinking went into preparing

282
00:20:02,490 --> 00:20:04,160
my evidence, I guess you could say.

283
00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:11,030
But because I just got to breaking point
over the affidavit, the same friend who'd

284
00:20:11,030 --> 00:20:14,560
recommended my solicitor to me, I think
felt terrible about what had happened

285
00:20:15,340 --> 00:20:20,080
and recommended I look for another
solicitor through this directory I'd

286
00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:26,320
never heard of called Doyle's directory,
which is an industry, a law industry

287
00:20:26,909 --> 00:20:34,020
directory that lists Top ranking,
it ranks solicitors and barristers.

288
00:20:35,685 --> 00:20:39,075
in every state and territory by merit.

289
00:20:39,425 --> 00:20:43,534
So you can go in, anyone can
go in there and you can, and I

290
00:20:43,564 --> 00:20:50,784
also didn't realize I needed an
accredited specialist in estate law.

291
00:20:51,505 --> 00:20:52,314
I had.

292
00:20:52,545 --> 00:20:57,645
My solicitor who, you know, waxed
lyrical about experience, you know,

293
00:20:57,645 --> 00:21:01,924
vast experience in estate law, but
that's not at all the same thing as an

294
00:21:01,924 --> 00:21:04,134
accredited specialist in estate law.

295
00:21:05,575 --> 00:21:10,030
How that affects you in several
ways, one of them is, You're

296
00:21:10,030 --> 00:21:13,660
still paying a great deal of money
for any half decent solicitor.

297
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,220
But what happens with an accredited
specialist is, for example, they won't

298
00:21:19,230 --> 00:21:23,260
get a barrister on board and there
you're paying mega bucks for a barrister.

299
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,680
They won't get a barrister on board until
the very last minute when you're about to

300
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,460
go to court because they don't need one.

301
00:21:28,659 --> 00:21:31,860
They have the specialist
knowledge they need to take you

302
00:21:31,860 --> 00:21:35,280
right up to the courthouse door
pretty much, as I understand it.

303
00:21:37,045 --> 00:21:41,645
My original solicitor wanted a barrister
on board very soon after we started

304
00:21:41,645 --> 00:21:46,065
all of this because she very clearly,
again, with the benefit of hindsight,

305
00:21:46,415 --> 00:21:51,114
didn't know how to proceed with the case.

306
00:21:51,610 --> 00:21:53,330
and needed to consult a barrister.

307
00:21:53,330 --> 00:21:55,320
That cost me an enormous amount of money.

308
00:21:56,230 --> 00:22:01,560
All up, I spent at least, I think,
30, 000 on the solicitor who got

309
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:03,900
me nowhere an entire 18 months.

310
00:22:04,540 --> 00:22:09,400
Add to that the rent I was paying
and, you know, very expensive.

311
00:22:11,630 --> 00:22:17,630
So, I get this wonderful accredited
specialist who does far more in the space

312
00:22:17,630 --> 00:22:21,900
of six months than the original solicitor
did in those one and a half years.

313
00:22:22,340 --> 00:22:27,359
And who, again, it's lucky that I
fell out with my solicitor over the

314
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:33,250
affidavit because as my new solicitor
advised, if that, if I'd just.

315
00:22:34,675 --> 00:22:37,845
Become impatient and wanted
to get things over with.

316
00:22:38,925 --> 00:22:43,744
I would have proceeded to have that
affidavit lodged with the Supreme Court.

317
00:22:44,265 --> 00:22:48,505
My new solicitor said, thank goodness
you didn't do that because once

318
00:22:48,505 --> 00:22:52,394
you lodge an affidavit with the
Supreme Court, it's a runaway train.

319
00:22:52,735 --> 00:22:53,815
You are going to court.

320
00:22:54,875 --> 00:22:55,774
End of story.

321
00:22:57,224 --> 00:23:01,605
The reason that's a terrible
thing to know is that.

322
00:23:02,715 --> 00:23:08,565
My solicitor almost snorted when
I told her, six months, 50 grand,

323
00:23:08,585 --> 00:23:13,884
she said, okay, uh, I don't know
why on earth you were told that.

324
00:23:14,955 --> 00:23:20,285
I would say, on the basis of my
experience, it will take you, it will

325
00:23:20,304 --> 00:23:28,835
cost you at least 100, 000, at least,
to take this to court, if you lose, and

326
00:23:28,965 --> 00:23:33,045
yes, all of this seems very clear, yes,
there's been misappropriation of funds.

327
00:23:33,055 --> 00:23:33,115
Thank you.

328
00:23:34,284 --> 00:23:40,754
But if you lost, and you might lose
if your sister, for example, insists

329
00:23:40,774 --> 00:23:44,665
that, as she has been insisting
throughout this whole thing, that

330
00:23:44,865 --> 00:23:49,705
your mother gave her absolutely
free range with her bank account.

331
00:23:50,154 --> 00:23:51,464
She can't prove that happened.

332
00:23:51,475 --> 00:23:52,764
You can't prove it didn't happen.

333
00:23:53,274 --> 00:23:54,544
But what say you lose?

334
00:23:55,034 --> 00:23:59,144
You could not only lose your hundred
grand, but you could be forced to pay.

335
00:23:59,885 --> 00:24:04,614
a significant portion
of Miriam's legal costs.

336
00:24:05,645 --> 00:24:10,665
So you're looking here at
this amount of 350, 000 or so.

337
00:24:11,885 --> 00:24:12,785
You've got to pay rent.

338
00:24:12,905 --> 00:24:16,494
And she said, it will take you at
least two years to get into court.

339
00:24:16,515 --> 00:24:18,444
I don't know why they told you six months.

340
00:24:18,444 --> 00:24:19,564
That's just ludicrous.

341
00:24:20,144 --> 00:24:21,585
You might get a court date.

342
00:24:22,665 --> 00:24:26,355
You might be allocated a court date
within six months, but that court date

343
00:24:26,355 --> 00:24:27,965
will be at least two years from now.

344
00:24:29,635 --> 00:24:34,905
So you can imagine, I mean, you know that
feeling when your whole body just goes

345
00:24:34,935 --> 00:24:37,975
cold from shock, that's what happened.

346
00:24:38,784 --> 00:24:44,205
And she said, look, I don't think it's, I
don't think it's worth your while pursuing

347
00:24:44,365 --> 00:24:46,635
precisely because of those, those facts.

348
00:24:46,985 --> 00:24:50,774
You'll barely break even and
you'll pay another 50, 000 in rent.

349
00:24:52,669 --> 00:24:58,120
So you can see it's a very dismal
state of affairs despite this being

350
00:24:58,739 --> 00:25:02,319
what seems to be a fairly clear cut
case of shocking misappropriation.

351
00:25:03,430 --> 00:25:06,280
So what happened from there was she said,
look, if you want to give it one more

352
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:11,199
shot, we can rewrite the affidavit because
yes, it's a, basically it's a mess.

353
00:25:11,949 --> 00:25:16,689
And we can also draft a summons, which is
a very scary document, basically saying.

354
00:25:17,930 --> 00:25:18,910
We're taking you to court.

355
00:25:18,970 --> 00:25:22,660
And here, uh, it's an adjunct
to the affidavit, if you like,

356
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:28,180
that's yet more formal and yet
more, more, I guess, threatening.

357
00:25:29,470 --> 00:25:35,139
I mean, I, when I read the affidavit,
the hairs stood up on my arms.

358
00:25:35,139 --> 00:25:39,590
It was, you know, basically, you did
this, we're taking you to court and

359
00:25:39,590 --> 00:25:41,460
to put it colloquially, you're toast.

360
00:25:42,335 --> 00:25:44,825
It's, as I say, yeah,
terrified me to read it.

361
00:25:45,574 --> 00:25:48,795
I daresay, and she said,
look, that's your last shot.

362
00:25:49,105 --> 00:25:55,004
And we can make another offer and
say, basically, pay this amount

363
00:25:55,004 --> 00:25:55,905
or we're taking you to court.

364
00:25:56,104 --> 00:25:56,524
That's it.

365
00:25:56,544 --> 00:25:57,975
This is your last chance.

366
00:25:58,935 --> 00:26:05,865
And that's what we did, and the response
after about, I think, six weeks, was, get

367
00:26:05,865 --> 00:26:13,225
stuffed, basically, nut, knock yourself
out, take me to court, go ahead, which

368
00:26:13,225 --> 00:26:15,674
was a huge gamble on Miriam's part.

369
00:26:15,774 --> 00:26:23,005
She had no way of, I mean, huge, but it
paid off for her, so basically, I paid,

370
00:26:23,005 --> 00:26:27,155
I think, around 60, 000 in legal fees.

371
00:26:27,985 --> 00:26:31,335
By the time I actually bought a
house, I'd expended, from the time

372
00:26:31,335 --> 00:26:35,054
of this all starting, I'd expended
at least another 50 on rent.

373
00:26:36,054 --> 00:26:45,304
So there's 120, 000 gone, and that's quite
apart from the 165, 000 I was entitled

374
00:26:45,304 --> 00:26:48,125
to that had been stolen by Miriam.

375
00:26:50,045 --> 00:26:54,695
And it, it just, it was
a very rude awakening.

376
00:26:54,965 --> 00:26:58,325
And I just had to cut my losses,
get some very good therapy.

377
00:26:58,625 --> 00:27:00,245
And, and that's not a joke.

378
00:27:00,245 --> 00:27:00,955
I really did.

379
00:27:01,605 --> 00:27:08,605
And, uh, and walk away knowing that
Miriam would never be brought to justice.

380
00:27:09,385 --> 00:27:10,665
And that's that.

381
00:27:11,884 --> 00:27:17,074
So it's a cautionary tale, I think,
for, as you said in the introduction,

382
00:27:17,074 --> 00:27:24,344
Catherine, for anyone who discovers
elder financial abuse on the part of a

383
00:27:24,344 --> 00:27:30,600
relative or friend or whomever associated
with, their deceased loved one and

384
00:27:30,610 --> 00:27:37,139
thinks it will be a cut and dried case
to get it to court, win, shame the

385
00:27:37,139 --> 00:27:39,760
other person and have them penalised.

386
00:27:40,239 --> 00:27:46,859
Um, you know, it, what's, I guess
you could say it's somewhat akin to a

387
00:27:46,859 --> 00:27:50,089
divorce settlement where people make
assumptions about what they're entitled

388
00:27:50,090 --> 00:27:56,250
to without understanding the intricacies
of the legislation in question.

389
00:27:57,115 --> 00:27:59,875
only to find that they've
miscalculated badly.

390
00:27:59,915 --> 00:28:03,534
I mean, I wish I'd known
about accredited specialists.

391
00:28:03,534 --> 00:28:09,524
For example, if I'd just known that this
whole case and, and hired this solicitor

392
00:28:09,524 --> 00:28:13,885
from the get go, the whole case would
have been done and dusted in six months.

393
00:28:14,214 --> 00:28:19,095
Yes, I would have walked away shockingly
disappointed, but I would have only spent

394
00:28:19,095 --> 00:28:23,250
around 25, 000, 30, 000 on legal fees.

395
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,120
I would have only been paying
rent for that six months.

396
00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:28,929
And however long on top of that,
it took me to find a house to buy.

397
00:28:29,340 --> 00:28:33,860
House prices would have been
about 15 to 20 percent cheaper in

398
00:28:33,860 --> 00:28:35,329
the area where I wanted to buy.

399
00:28:36,090 --> 00:28:36,600
So.

400
00:28:38,485 --> 00:28:45,294
Yeah, there's, you know, there's not
only the awful set of facts at play,

401
00:28:45,854 --> 00:28:47,804
there's dealing with the fallout of that.

402
00:28:49,495 --> 00:28:50,114
And so,

403
00:28:50,185 --> 00:28:53,775
Catherine Ashton: can you just talk
me through, we've obviously discussed

404
00:28:53,784 --> 00:28:58,820
the legal side of things in relation
to the conflict that you had with your

405
00:28:58,820 --> 00:29:05,650
sister, uh, and you trying to bring
her to justice in your words, could you

406
00:29:05,980 --> 00:29:12,180
sort of, it seems like that concurrently
while this was going on, also it sounds

407
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,519
like that you were settling what assets.

408
00:29:16,850 --> 00:29:18,949
Your mother did have, is that right?

409
00:29:19,370 --> 00:29:20,959
So that was happening
at the same time, was

410
00:29:20,959 --> 00:29:21,020
Grace: it?

411
00:29:21,020 --> 00:29:21,470
Oh, okay.

412
00:29:21,919 --> 00:29:22,250
Yeah.

413
00:29:22,250 --> 00:29:26,929
But that's a somewhat complicated
scenario that I'll try to simplify after.

414
00:29:27,110 --> 00:29:31,220
You know, the, the estate was subject to
probate that went through very smoothly.

415
00:29:31,220 --> 00:29:31,970
No problem.

416
00:29:32,629 --> 00:29:36,679
And the house that mom was living
in before she went into the

417
00:29:36,679 --> 00:29:42,100
nursing home, which Miriam and
I had agreed to rent out, uh.

418
00:29:42,570 --> 00:29:48,310
We sold, we agreed to sell it, that
was, that was obvious, I guess, and we

419
00:29:48,310 --> 00:29:52,689
were both, you know, it sold relatively
quickly and we each got our half

420
00:29:52,689 --> 00:29:55,550
share of the proceeds of that sale.

421
00:29:56,669 --> 00:30:06,350
Uh, but, Miriam and her husband had were
at the time living in my parents' old

422
00:30:06,350 --> 00:30:15,070
family home, which mum had agreed to let
them live in rent free under some duress.

423
00:30:15,070 --> 00:30:17,680
I think she was coerced
into it, that's my view.

424
00:30:19,030 --> 00:30:23,160
She basically told me
that that was the case.

425
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:30,265
Uh, so they'd lived rent free there for
seven years by the time mom died and.

426
00:30:32,370 --> 00:30:35,340
Miriam had said, Oh,
you'll have to buy me out.

427
00:30:35,340 --> 00:30:40,920
At the time I was playing nice, you know,
I knew that it could get very combative.

428
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:46,849
So I said, okay, we'll, I'll, I'll, you
get your value or I'll get my value and

429
00:30:46,849 --> 00:30:52,309
we'll meet in the middle if, if there's
a discrepancy, uh, that happened, there

430
00:30:52,309 --> 00:30:55,239
was a discrepancy, but by the time.

431
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:00,910
the valuations were in, Miriam had
decided, suddenly did a complete about

432
00:31:00,910 --> 00:31:03,310
face and said, Oh, we want to sell.

433
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:08,020
We want to buy a different, we, we want to
move somewhere else for various reasons.

434
00:31:08,030 --> 00:31:09,810
So that was, that was good news.

435
00:31:11,420 --> 00:31:17,010
And one of the things she, we did
sell the house, it took quite a

436
00:31:17,010 --> 00:31:20,920
while, it was a difficult sell for
various reasons that I won't go into.

437
00:31:21,870 --> 00:31:27,160
Yeah, it was a hard sell, basically, in
a, in a market that was far from stable.

438
00:31:28,050 --> 00:31:32,320
So it was a great thing when we
finally got a sale, even if that was

439
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,450
for, you know, less than anticipated.

440
00:31:35,650 --> 00:31:42,600
And what Miriam did was, when, The
case was underway, said, I'm going

441
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,710
to refuse to sign the contract.

442
00:31:45,390 --> 00:31:47,740
God, I can't even remember what
it was, what this was over.

443
00:31:47,790 --> 00:31:50,489
But one of the things she
did was, you know, this young

444
00:31:50,489 --> 00:31:51,980
couple had bought the house.

445
00:31:51,980 --> 00:31:57,469
They'd probably sold their own, literally
ready to move, ready to sign the contract.

446
00:31:57,490 --> 00:32:00,044
And Miriam said, I'm
not signing it unless.

447
00:32:00,655 --> 00:32:04,145
It was, it was, it was blackmail
basically, pure and simple.

448
00:32:04,735 --> 00:32:06,675
I can't remember what
the condition was now.

449
00:32:07,695 --> 00:32:10,615
Uh, yeah, that was the kind of
behavior I was dealing with.

450
00:32:10,885 --> 00:32:19,134
So, and we, you know, one of the
conditions I imposed was I put a caveat on

451
00:32:19,135 --> 00:32:26,634
the money from that sale so that neither
of us could obtain that second part of

452
00:32:26,635 --> 00:32:31,045
mum's estate until the stash was settled.

453
00:32:31,610 --> 00:32:34,580
It was just held in trust for a long, long

454
00:32:34,580 --> 00:32:34,970
Catherine Ashton: time.

455
00:32:35,470 --> 00:32:38,330
And was that advice that you'd
got from your solicitor at

456
00:32:38,330 --> 00:32:38,530
Grace: the time?

457
00:32:39,620 --> 00:32:42,600
Actually it was, actually it
was advice from mum's solicitor.

458
00:32:43,460 --> 00:32:48,720
When I was talking to him, um,
yeah, he said, do this quickly, and

459
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,010
I did, and I was very glad I did.

460
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:51,750
And

461
00:32:51,750 --> 00:32:54,699
Catherine Ashton: just, just so
it's clear in my mind, in relation

462
00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:56,920
to timing wise, where were we?

463
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,750
Had you written the
affidavit by that stage?

464
00:33:01,070 --> 00:33:02,650
Uh, was it pre that

465
00:33:02,660 --> 00:33:03,450
Grace: happening?

466
00:33:05,260 --> 00:33:07,760
I think it was around the same time.

467
00:33:08,290 --> 00:33:13,050
The affidavit, I have to say, the
affidavit was a year in coming, at least.

468
00:33:13,570 --> 00:33:17,680
This was, you know, this was yet another
of the frustrations, and it went back

469
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:22,540
and forth, as I say, many times, and
the falling out was because I was

470
00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:25,739
dissatisfied with the quality of the work.

471
00:33:26,399 --> 00:33:26,919
Um,

472
00:33:29,095 --> 00:33:32,065
Catherine Ashton: And all of this time,
I'm assuming you're also grieving.

473
00:33:33,145 --> 00:33:34,225
Grace: Sort of, yeah.

474
00:33:34,235 --> 00:33:38,205
I have to say, I'm going to get teary
now, which is weird because I, I've

475
00:33:38,205 --> 00:33:44,455
cried a lot over the case, but I felt
so profoundly betrayed by my mother.

476
00:33:45,195 --> 00:33:49,204
And there are all sorts of reasons for
that, that I could talk for hours about,

477
00:33:49,245 --> 00:33:54,485
obviously, as most people can, but I
felt so profoundly betrayed by mum.

478
00:33:54,485 --> 00:34:00,165
I felt that the self she had presented
to me for many years was, in many ways,

479
00:34:00,340 --> 00:34:06,230
probably quite disingenuous, and that
she might have kind of played me and

480
00:34:06,230 --> 00:34:11,100
Miriam off against one another to some
extent because she feared Miriam, but

481
00:34:11,100 --> 00:34:17,309
also feared my, my anger about what
she was letting Miriam get away with.

482
00:34:17,550 --> 00:34:19,669
And I feel for her on that
count, you know, you have to

483
00:34:19,669 --> 00:34:21,299
extend some degree of compassion.

484
00:34:22,389 --> 00:34:27,055
But yes, I was, I was emotionally
distraught to a degree.

485
00:34:27,355 --> 00:34:32,275
I've never been before and I've been
through a couple of divorces, so I

486
00:34:32,275 --> 00:34:34,095
know distraught very well indeed.

487
00:34:34,525 --> 00:34:39,364
And, uh, yeah, and, and of
course, in Victoria, we were in

488
00:34:39,365 --> 00:34:42,835
lockdown, even where I was living
at the time, we're in lockdown.

489
00:34:43,604 --> 00:34:47,965
And it, you know, I was, I was
living like a hermit basically.

490
00:34:48,025 --> 00:34:55,310
And so I was, I was alone pretty much
24 seven for, you know, A couple of

491
00:34:55,310 --> 00:35:00,220
years or more, and people get tired,
that's the other thing you discover.

492
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,160
And I think it's fair enough, you
know, it's, it's like that friend

493
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,020
who goes on and on about their ex.

494
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:10,420
People have a, have a cutoff
point for listening to your woes,

495
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,180
especially if you're just tending
to repeat yourself over and over and

496
00:35:15,340 --> 00:35:18,510
over, no matter how compassionate
they are and how lovely they are.

497
00:35:19,215 --> 00:35:24,465
At a certain point, that's fodder
for therapy, you know, it's not wise

498
00:35:25,425 --> 00:35:29,805
or helpful to dish it out to your
friends constantly, or family members.

499
00:35:30,335 --> 00:35:33,385
Catherine Ashton: Yeah, and at what
point in time did, did you realise,

500
00:35:33,455 --> 00:35:35,614
okay, look, I, I think I need

501
00:35:35,615 --> 00:35:36,435
Grace: to speak to someone?

502
00:35:37,545 --> 00:35:43,665
Very early on, and I got in touch with
a therapist I'd, I'd engaged previously

503
00:35:43,665 --> 00:35:48,115
a few times and I knew that she was
a specialist in a particular type of

504
00:35:48,164 --> 00:35:50,994
therapy that focused squarely on trauma.

505
00:35:51,795 --> 00:35:56,874
And if anyone's interested in that, I
can send you the details, Catherine,

506
00:35:56,945 --> 00:36:00,604
but it's, it's extremely effective.

507
00:36:00,875 --> 00:36:04,155
And I contacted her and said, look,
this is what I'm going through.

508
00:36:04,245 --> 00:36:05,255
After it's all over.

509
00:36:06,025 --> 00:36:08,505
I'd like to do this trauma therapy again.

510
00:36:09,535 --> 00:36:14,135
And she said, Grace, uh, I
think you should do it now.

511
00:36:15,855 --> 00:36:20,165
Ironically, she'd also been through a
stoush with a sibling over a relative's

512
00:36:20,165 --> 00:36:23,765
estate, um, and won, won handsomely.

513
00:36:24,335 --> 00:36:28,455
And, uh, you know, she said, I think
you'll benefit greatly from doing it now.

514
00:36:28,455 --> 00:36:31,795
It will put you in an entirely
different frame of mind.

515
00:36:32,575 --> 00:36:35,635
And, you know, go away, think about it.

516
00:36:36,155 --> 00:36:40,475
And I did, and I did the therapy
again, way before the case was settled.

517
00:36:41,145 --> 00:36:47,635
And it was effective up to a point,
but As she, you know, as I knew already

518
00:36:47,635 --> 00:36:52,595
from being familiar with this particular
mode of therapy, if the trauma is

519
00:36:52,595 --> 00:36:58,365
ongoing for any length of time, the
effects of the therapy will diminish.

520
00:36:58,745 --> 00:36:59,555
And they did.

521
00:37:00,265 --> 00:37:05,085
And yeah, I was in a very sorry
state and I can't actually say I have

522
00:37:05,085 --> 00:37:07,415
even yet grieved my mother's death.

523
00:37:07,775 --> 00:37:11,175
It's like I'm, I'm quite
numb to the whole thing.

524
00:37:11,935 --> 00:37:14,215
I've, again, because I feel so depressed.

525
00:37:14,495 --> 00:37:15,645
Deeply betrayed.

526
00:37:16,425 --> 00:37:20,555
No matter how much compassion I can
muster for my mother's circumstances.

527
00:37:21,705 --> 00:37:26,965
Uh, I'm really bloody angry with
her, if I can be blunt about it.

528
00:37:26,994 --> 00:37:29,124
I'm really still bloody angry with her.

529
00:37:29,124 --> 00:37:34,595
And I, you know, I know, I know all
of, all about, you know, the ethos of

530
00:37:34,595 --> 00:37:39,655
forgiveness, but I'm, I just can't come
at it to be, again, to be brutally honest.

531
00:37:40,185 --> 00:37:43,565
At the moment, perhaps
I'll come to that in time.

532
00:37:43,855 --> 00:37:44,744
I can let go.

533
00:37:45,495 --> 00:37:49,385
I can, you know, I can do all manner
of things to make sure I don't

534
00:37:49,425 --> 00:37:51,555
think or talk about this at length.

535
00:37:51,845 --> 00:37:57,295
And the reason I'm talking today
is, if I can spare just one person

536
00:37:57,864 --> 00:38:00,665
this kind of hell, job well done.

537
00:38:02,455 --> 00:38:02,945
And so you

538
00:38:02,974 --> 00:38:06,034
Catherine Ashton: mentioned
that Patricia died at the end

539
00:38:06,075 --> 00:38:08,235
of 2020, you know, your mother.

540
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:18,940
When you, uh, realized that, um, it's,
it's, it's not in your interest to take

541
00:38:18,940 --> 00:38:22,130
the matter any further, what, what year

542
00:38:22,149 --> 00:38:22,670
Grace: was that?

543
00:38:24,490 --> 00:38:26,160
That was only last year.

544
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:36,960
We, because, um, it was September,
it was September 2022 when this new

545
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,530
solicitor said to me, okay, it's going
to cost you a hundred thousand dollars.

546
00:38:40,530 --> 00:38:41,840
It's going to take two years.

547
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,980
But again, if you want
to give it one last shot.

548
00:38:45,415 --> 00:38:46,775
We rewrite the affidavit.

549
00:38:47,195 --> 00:38:50,025
We accompany that with a draft summons.

550
00:38:51,205 --> 00:38:57,025
We send that to her solicitor and
either you get an offer, you get a

551
00:38:57,025 --> 00:39:00,295
counteroffer, or you walk away because.

552
00:39:01,150 --> 00:39:03,950
Miriam says, no, not coming to the party.

553
00:39:04,820 --> 00:39:10,330
And by the time that happened, by the
time that played out, several rounds of

554
00:39:10,330 --> 00:39:15,959
corrections to the affidavit, you know,
the drafting of the summons, me checking

555
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:21,020
both documents thoroughly, you know,
several rounds of corrections and changes.

556
00:39:21,649 --> 00:39:27,469
And, you know, the Christmas new year
break, it wasn't until kind of, I guess,

557
00:39:27,619 --> 00:39:32,280
early 23, that things finally came to.

558
00:39:32,645 --> 00:39:35,465
the point where we could send
the affidavit and draft summons.

559
00:39:36,385 --> 00:39:39,525
And it took weeks for Miriam to respond.

560
00:39:39,585 --> 00:39:42,844
That was obviously a
deliberate ploy as well.

561
00:39:44,115 --> 00:39:44,755
But it is, yeah.

562
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,800
I guess I'm left, I'm astounded that
someone could not only steal that much

563
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:56,090
money, but also let a parent or anyone
get to the point where they weigh 30

564
00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:01,020
kilos and not call to account for that.

565
00:40:01,029 --> 00:40:02,990
It just staggers me.

566
00:40:03,359 --> 00:40:10,120
It staggers me that nobody in the
hospital system questioned why my

567
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:15,140
mother was in such a shocking physical
state when she was first admitted.

568
00:40:15,420 --> 00:40:17,040
Why was that not followed up?

569
00:40:18,175 --> 00:40:21,475
You do get the sense of, oh,
look, she's, you know, she's in

570
00:40:21,475 --> 00:40:24,675
her mid 90s, or she's in her 90s,
she's going to die soon anyway.

571
00:40:24,765 --> 00:40:26,385
Let's just let that slide.

572
00:40:27,855 --> 00:40:33,655
It just, it's staggering to me the extent
to which we don't matter once we get

573
00:40:33,655 --> 00:40:39,635
to a certain age, even to many of the
professionals who are charged with looking

574
00:40:39,665 --> 00:40:42,395
after us and guarding our well being.

575
00:40:42,735 --> 00:40:43,995
That just staggered me.

576
00:40:45,785 --> 00:40:45,975
And

577
00:40:45,975 --> 00:40:50,815
Catherine Ashton: so tell me, obviously,
given the fact that it was only really

578
00:40:51,165 --> 00:41:00,035
sort of this year that this has come to
some sort of conclusion, what has this

579
00:41:00,045 --> 00:41:04,374
influenced, this experience influenced
you in preparing for your own death?

580
00:41:05,625 --> 00:41:07,565
Grace: That's a, that's
such a great question.

581
00:41:07,905 --> 00:41:10,305
Obviously I have an ironclad will.

582
00:41:10,345 --> 00:41:12,385
I only have one child, my daughter.

583
00:41:13,155 --> 00:41:16,075
She's married with kids,
and very happily so.

584
00:41:16,145 --> 00:41:18,905
And I adore my son in law greatly.

585
00:41:19,215 --> 00:41:25,815
However, again, having been through
two, well, de facto divorces, I know

586
00:41:25,985 --> 00:41:32,625
only too well that even people who
seem the last people on earth to get

587
00:41:32,634 --> 00:41:39,495
nasty over money in the case of a
marital split, People are hurting and

588
00:41:39,495 --> 00:41:41,505
they lash out or they can lash out.

589
00:41:42,235 --> 00:41:50,065
So I wanted to make sure that were I to
die and my daughter be in a situation

590
00:41:50,065 --> 00:41:54,495
where she was perhaps, you know, on the
brink of splitting from her husband,

591
00:41:54,975 --> 00:42:00,205
that no way on earth can anyone other
than her get her hands on my estate.

592
00:42:00,605 --> 00:42:03,335
So I consulted my financial advisor.

593
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:09,760
who recommended that I get in
touch with an estate law solicitor

594
00:42:10,430 --> 00:42:12,770
who does nothing but draft wills.

595
00:42:13,500 --> 00:42:18,930
He advised me, you know, he, I
already had a will, but it was quite,

596
00:42:19,079 --> 00:42:23,560
I guess, It was basic, drafted by
a solicitor friend many years ago.

597
00:42:24,190 --> 00:42:27,120
And this new solicitor looked
at it and said, okay, yeah,

598
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:28,540
we can improve a lot on this.

599
00:42:28,909 --> 00:42:32,189
And you might like to think about a
testamentary trust, which basically

600
00:42:32,270 --> 00:42:36,810
means, I cannot explain this in,
in fully comprehensible terms.

601
00:42:36,970 --> 00:42:42,250
Basically it means that your beneficiary
Is your sole beneficiary and nobody else

602
00:42:42,250 --> 00:42:49,010
can touch your, any part of your estate
if you should die and there be a conflict

603
00:42:49,050 --> 00:42:50,990
between your beneficiary and their spouse.

604
00:42:51,459 --> 00:42:53,670
So, yeah, I put that in place.

605
00:42:54,130 --> 00:42:58,730
And I'm also, I'm a bit lax with
this, but I'm also drafting, I think

606
00:42:58,730 --> 00:43:00,580
it's called an emotional will, is it?

607
00:43:00,580 --> 00:43:05,610
They call it these days, where that's
where you, you know, you can lay out

608
00:43:07,159 --> 00:43:11,949
everything you want for your funeral,
your, your burial or cremation or

609
00:43:11,950 --> 00:43:16,070
whatever you choose to have done with
your remains, what music you want played.

610
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,420
And if you, if it's not already
in your will, little things like.

611
00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:24,150
You know, I want this piece of
jewellery to go to so and so, and I

612
00:43:24,150 --> 00:43:29,429
want this artwork to go to somebody
else, if you so choose, so, and

613
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,370
advanced care directive as well.

614
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,239
I think it's really important
to have that in place.

615
00:43:36,940 --> 00:43:37,980
And given your personal

616
00:43:37,980 --> 00:43:42,170
Catherine Ashton: experience, you've
touched on a few of them, but just, just

617
00:43:42,170 --> 00:43:47,410
recapping, what advice or encouragement
would you like to share with others

618
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:48,780
based on what you've been through?

619
00:43:49,630 --> 00:43:51,960
Grace: Okay, first point, which I haven't.

620
00:43:52,340 --> 00:43:58,350
mentioned already is that if you find
yourself, if you find yourself in a

621
00:43:58,350 --> 00:44:02,810
similar situation, you should be aware
that, I mean, one of the assumptions I

622
00:44:02,810 --> 00:44:09,110
made erroneously, was that, okay, someone
has power of attorney that, that gives

623
00:44:09,130 --> 00:44:13,310
them access to somebody else's money.

624
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:21,099
And, uh, I thought, I just assumed
that if you misappropriated money from

625
00:44:21,100 --> 00:44:30,340
that person under power of attorney,
that you would have to provide

626
00:44:30,340 --> 00:44:33,000
receipts for every cent you'd spent.

627
00:44:33,535 --> 00:44:38,885
and justify that expenditure on
the grounds that it was directly,

628
00:44:39,445 --> 00:44:47,105
absolutely directly and solely for the
benefit of the person whose account

629
00:44:47,115 --> 00:44:48,234
you were taking the money from.

630
00:44:48,635 --> 00:44:50,065
No such thing applies.

631
00:44:51,035 --> 00:44:52,114
That is not true.

632
00:44:52,125 --> 00:44:54,395
That was a huge shock.

633
00:44:54,724 --> 00:45:01,695
Unless that stipulation is written into
the Power of Attorney document, it's,

634
00:45:01,695 --> 00:45:04,390
it's, It doesn't fly, doesn't exist.

635
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:12,299
Miriam could, you know, and did, assert
vehemently that every single cent she took

636
00:45:12,300 --> 00:45:14,380
from Mum's account was for Mum's benefit.

637
00:45:15,140 --> 00:45:19,510
But, you know, this included things
like a couple of thousand dollars

638
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:24,150
spent on an overseas air ticket and
spa treatments, which certainly weren't

639
00:45:24,150 --> 00:45:27,930
for mum because she was completely
immobilized in a, in a nursing home bed.

640
00:45:28,949 --> 00:45:34,080
You know, there was no onus on
Miriam whatsoever in a league

641
00:45:34,100 --> 00:45:38,250
within a legal framework to
account for the money she'd taken.

642
00:45:38,250 --> 00:45:40,740
So that's one, one cautionary note.

643
00:45:41,510 --> 00:45:43,100
And the other I would say is.

644
00:45:43,925 --> 00:45:47,895
If you're given powers of attorney
and they're joint powers of attorney,

645
00:45:47,905 --> 00:45:51,975
make sure you understand exactly the
nature of the power that's granted

646
00:45:51,975 --> 00:45:53,954
to you before you sign that document.

647
00:45:54,194 --> 00:46:00,605
And if, get legal advice even
on what that power of attorney

648
00:46:00,614 --> 00:46:02,534
gives you and doesn't give you.

649
00:46:02,745 --> 00:46:09,665
And if you feel it needs to be amended
in some way, seek that amendment as,

650
00:46:09,775 --> 00:46:12,005
as stridently as you possibly can.

651
00:46:13,130 --> 00:46:21,010
Uh, second is if you suspect someone
of misappropriating a dying person's

652
00:46:21,020 --> 00:46:23,810
funds, act on it immediately.

653
00:46:23,810 --> 00:46:28,590
Get a solicitor involved immediately
and make sure you go to the Doyle's

654
00:46:28,590 --> 00:46:34,300
directory and you find an accredited
specialist with a very high rank.

655
00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:36,770
They are, they cost a lot more.

656
00:46:38,025 --> 00:46:43,085
They cost about, in my experience, about
30 percent more than any other solicitor,

657
00:46:43,535 --> 00:46:44,805
but they know a great deal more.

658
00:46:44,805 --> 00:46:45,965
They're much more efficient.

659
00:46:45,995 --> 00:46:47,865
They have much better experience.

660
00:46:48,885 --> 00:46:52,855
And they're just, they're just
far more adept at what they do.

661
00:46:53,290 --> 00:46:59,340
than even a solicitor who claims to have
significant experience in estate law.

662
00:47:00,030 --> 00:47:02,570
But I would get involved
as soon as possible.

663
00:47:03,079 --> 00:47:07,100
If you have access to bank accounts,
check them and start making threats

664
00:47:07,110 --> 00:47:11,069
very, very quickly to the person on
the other side and get, yeah, get

665
00:47:11,070 --> 00:47:15,699
that legal advice in place and let
them know they're being watched.

666
00:47:17,460 --> 00:47:21,880
And I guess for yourself, you know, if
you have, if you're at the point where

667
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:26,920
you're thinking about your end of life
scenario, make sure that your will

668
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:32,730
is in very good order and that your
beneficiaries are protected in the way

669
00:47:32,730 --> 00:47:38,990
that the will is structured and that
your powers of attorney are similarly

670
00:47:39,190 --> 00:47:44,750
structured so that misappropriation
becomes very difficult to commit.

671
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,669
Catherine Ashton: Is there anything
else that you'd like to mention

672
00:47:49,669 --> 00:47:50,059
Grace: Grace?

673
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,150
Not that I can think of, Catherine.

674
00:47:54,180 --> 00:47:54,560
Thank you.

675
00:47:54,970 --> 00:47:56,050
Thank you for listening.

676
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:57,400
No, I think it's

677
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:01,080
Catherine Ashton: a, it's a very,
very, very good cautionary tale

678
00:48:01,490 --> 00:48:06,070
for people out there and some very
sound advice or suggestions based

679
00:48:06,070 --> 00:48:07,509
on your own personal experience.

680
00:48:07,509 --> 00:48:10,220
So thank you so much
for being with us today.

681
00:48:10,745 --> 00:48:11,975
Grace: My absolute pleasure.

682
00:48:13,685 --> 00:48:16,835
Catherine Ashton: We hope you enjoyed
today's episode of Don't Be Caught

683
00:48:16,835 --> 00:48:19,175
Dead, brought to you by Critical Info.

684
00:48:19,945 --> 00:48:24,175
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685
00:48:24,175 --> 00:48:26,005
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686
00:48:26,275 --> 00:48:29,875
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687
00:48:29,875 --> 00:48:31,645
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688
00:48:31,795 --> 00:48:33,445
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689
00:48:33,530 --> 00:48:37,700
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690
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:39,350
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691
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692
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